RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Paul Fremantle wrote: I think the PPMC needs this sort of concrete feedback. And perhaps needs to consider that diversity means supporting a broader community of interests. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
For the record, I am voting -1 on graduation. I do not feel that Tuscany has sufficient real diversity, at this time, for graduation. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:58 AM, Paul Fremantle wrote: Noel Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in independent committers? Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging new committers and that this is having results. In which case, I would guess that diversity will be better improved in a handful of months... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Thanks for voting. I think the PPMC needs this sort of concrete feedback. Paul On 10/22/07, Jim Jagielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:58 AM, Paul Fremantle wrote: Noel Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in independent committers? Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging new committers and that this is having results. In which case, I would guess that diversity will be better improved in a handful of months... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2 OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/22/07, Jim Jagielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:58 AM, Paul Fremantle wrote: Noel Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in independent committers? Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging new committers and that this is having results. In which case, I would guess that diversity will be better improved in a handful of months... Thanks for your vote. Could you just clarify what you would consider a good level of diversity for Tuscany? I think it would be very beneficial to the project to know what they're shooting for and at which point they can consider bringing this topic back to the IPMC. Thanks, Matthieu - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
I would refer people to the Re: Graduation: how do we check three or more independent committers ? thread, and message ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Noel There is a vote in progress on a new committer right now. Does that count? I'm certainly keen on doing integration between Synapse and Tuscany and as soon as I get a minute I will do it. I agree that cross-fertilization is good. Paul On 10/21/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Fremantle wrote: Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in independent committers? Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging new committers and that this is having results. Where? It seems to me that if it were having results, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am happy to hear that Tuscany is open to new developers, but if we want a base level of diversity, we need to actually have those new developers, not just be open to them. Cross-fertilization between projects (Tuscany, Ode, CXF, Synapse, ServiceMix, et al) is one way to improve diversity, as well as improve synergies and integration. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2 OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
The recent Tuscany 1.0 release included Ode integration with an implementation.bpel component type. We also have experimental support for integration with Geronimo. In the last 2 months, 3 new committers have been added, one is in progress as Paul has said, and one is being discussed. Of these 5 people, one is IBM day job (me), one is IBM non-day-job, and 3 are non-IBM. I think this clearly shows that Tuscany is focusing effort on bringing in new committers to increase diversity, and on cross-fertilizing with other projects. Simon Paul Fremantle wrote: Noel There is a vote in progress on a new committer right now. Does that count? I'm certainly keen on doing integration between Synapse and Tuscany and as soon as I get a minute I will do it. I agree that cross-fertilization is good. Paul On 10/21/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Fremantle wrote: Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in independent committers? Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging new committers and that this is having results. Where? It seems to me that if it were having results, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am happy to hear that Tuscany is open to new developers, but if we want a base level of diversity, we need to actually have those new developers, not just be open to them. Cross-fertilization between projects (Tuscany, Ode, CXF, Synapse, ServiceMix, et al) is one way to improve diversity, as well as improve synergies and integration. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/19/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Fremantle wrote: I think Tuscany is ready to graduate because: 1) I understand it to have met the base requirements of the IPMC in terms of independent committers Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from independents? If the bare minimum is the 3 legally independent committers as defined in the Incubator policy documents then Tuscany has more than the bare minimum - and thats active committers. After two years in Incubation there are inactive committers but we've been ignoring those for these graduation discussions. ...ant
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/12/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Tuscany podling respectfully requests the Incubator to consider its graduation to a Top Level Project. While incubating Tuscany has made 14(!) releases, voted in 19 new committers, survived conflicts, formed its PPMC, learned how to govern itself, resolved licensing issues and an active community continues to grow around Tuscany. The community vote for graduation can be found on the Tuscany dev list at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg24675.html We have prepared the resolution below to be presented for consideration at the upcoming Board meeting. We invite everyone to vote to approve this proposal. Many thanks, ...ant Establish the Apache Tuscany project: WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public. NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management Committee (PMC), to be known as the Apache Tuscany Project, be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it further RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of software related to Apache Tuscany; and be it further RESOLVED, that the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany be and hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the Apache Tuscany Project, and to have primary responsibility for management of the projects within the scope of responsibility of the Apache Tuscany Project; and be it further RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the Apache Tuscany Project: Adriano Crestaniadrianocrestani at apache dot org Andrew Borley ajborley at apache dot org Andy Grove agrove at apache dot org ant elder antelder at apache dot org Brady Johnson bjohnson at apache dot org Frank Budinsky frankb at apache dot org Ignacio Silva-Lepe isilval at apache dot org Jean-Sebastien Delfino jsdelfino at apache dot org kelvin goodson kelvingoodson at apache dot org Luciano Resende lresende at apache dot org Mike Edwards edwardsmj at apache dot org Pete Robbinsrobbinspg at apache dot org Raymond Feng rfeng at apache dot org Simon Laws slaws at apache dot org Simon Nash nash at apache dot org Venkata Krishnan svkrish at apache dot org NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Ant Elder be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany, to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be it further RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache Incubator Tuscany podling; and be it further RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache Incubator Tuscany podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator Project are hereafter discharged. Thanks to everyone who's commented on this thread. Looks like we've come up with words that people are happy with but we shall hold off restarting the vote till all the discussions around minimum diversity requirements reach more consensus. The latest words are: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components. These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Ant Elder wrote: Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from independents? If the bare minimum is the 3 legally independent committers as defined in the Incubator policy documents then Tuscany has more than the bare minimum - and thats active committers. Can you compare those figures with Jeremy's statment: at this time there are only 2 committers active[2] who don't work for that organization, compared to 11 who do. Neither of the two independents are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO (they are committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS). and Simon Nash's: In the last 2 months, 3 new committers have been added, one is in progress as Paul has said, and one is being discussed. Of these 5 people, one is IBM day job (me), one is IBM non-day-job, and 3 are non-IBM. Simon seems to say three non-IBM and one IBM as a hobby, not day job. But two of the five aren't committers *yet*. Jeremy says two indepdendents. You're saying more than three. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/21/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ant Elder wrote: Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from independents? If the bare minimum is the 3 legally independent committers as defined in the Incubator policy documents then Tuscany has more than the bare minimum - and thats active committers. Can you compare those figures with Jeremy's statment: at this time there are only 2 committers active[2] who don't work for that organization, compared to 11 who do. Neither of the two independents are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO (they are committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS). and Simon Nash's: In the last 2 months, 3 new committers have been added, one is in progress as Paul has said, and one is being discussed. Of these 5 people, one is IBM day job (me), one is IBM non-day-job, and 3 are non-IBM. Simon seems to say three non-IBM and one IBM as a hobby, not day job. But two of the five aren't committers *yet*. Jeremy says two indepdendents. You're saying more than three. I think the breakdown is: current active committers are from IBM, RougeWave and two independents. I'm not sure exactly who does how many hours for a day job but i _think_ at least 3 of those IBM committers don't participate at all for their day jobs. Tuscany has 11 inactive committers (not contributed for months), from BEA, IBM, IONA and Redhat and two independents, I don't know if any of those will contribute again, last time i spoke to one of them they said they would but they were busy on other things just now. There's two more new people being voted on presently, and the STATUS file [1] shows new committers have been getting added every month or two over most of the incubation. So from that Tuscany does more than meet the minimum requirement of at least 3 legally independent committers. I've not seen this detail on diversity and active versus inactive committers in other graduations - how does Tuscany compare with other previously graduating poddlings? ...ant [1] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/tuscany/STATUS
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On Oct 21, 2007, at 10:52 AM, ant elder wrote: On 10/21/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ant Elder wrote: Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from independents? If the bare minimum is the 3 legally independent committers as defined in the Incubator policy documents then Tuscany has more than the bare minimum - and thats active committers. Can you compare those figures with Jeremy's statment: at this time there are only 2 committers active[2] who don't work for that organization, compared to 11 who do. Neither of the two independents are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO (they are committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS). and Simon Nash's: In the last 2 months, 3 new committers have been added, one is in progress as Paul has said, and one is being discussed. Of these 5 people, one is IBM day job (me), one is IBM non-day-job, and 3 are non-IBM. Simon seems to say three non-IBM and one IBM as a hobby, not day job. But two of the five aren't committers *yet*. Jeremy says two indepdendents. You're saying more than three. I think the breakdown is: current active committers are from IBM, RougeWave and two independents. I'm not sure exactly who does how many hours for a day job but i _think_ at least 3 of those IBM committers don't participate at all for their day jobs. Tuscany has 11 inactive committers (not contributed for months), from BEA, IBM, IONA and Redhat and two independents, I don't know if any of those will contribute again, last time i spoke to one of them they said they would but they were busy on other things just now. Without getting involved in the rest of the discussions associated with this thread, I do want to clarify one point... About seven months ago, BEA decided to pursue an alternative direction with the other active independents working on SCA at the time when our goals diverged from others in the community. Speaking for BEA, we made it clear on multiple occasions that while we wished Tuscany success, given the divergent interests, we were satisfied with our decision to participate elsewhere. It is unlikely we will revisit this decision in the future. Regards, Jim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/20/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Fremantle wrote: Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in independent committers? Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging new committers and that this is having results. Where? It seems to me that if it were having results, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am happy to hear that Tuscany is open to new developers, but if we want a base level of diversity, we need to actually have those new developers, not just be open to them. Cross-fertilization between projects (Tuscany, Ode, CXF, Synapse, ServiceMix, et al) is one way to improve diversity, as well as improve synergies and integration. My impression is that the current discussion only arises because Tuscany has so many committers. If there were only 3 or 4 of them from a single organization, nobody would be so worried about it, even if they had the bare minimum of 3 independent committers. But they did welcome enough independent committers while being in the incubator and there's actually a second organization supporting the project as well. Attracting a large quantity of independent developers while being in the incubator is pretty hard, I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect them to find enough independents to balance all others. Matthieu --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Noel Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in independent committers? Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging new committers and that this is having results. Paul -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2 OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
nt elder wrote: The Tuscany podling respectfully requests the Incubator to consider its graduation to a Top Level Project. While incubating Tuscany has made 14(!) releases, voted in 19 new committers, survived conflicts, formed its PPMC, learned how to govern itself, resolved licensing issues and an active community continues to grow around Tuscany. The community vote for graduation can be found on the Tuscany dev list at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg24675.html +1 for graduation. I respect the calls for finer analysis and stronger standards for diversity, but I just don't see this holding up Tuscany's graduation. If there were issues that Tuscany was failing to consider strong prospects for committership and committee membership, that issue would fall on the board (as with any ASF project). I trust they are not trying to preserve the status quo, but actively seek new committers and new PMC members. Bill - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Paul Fremantle wrote: Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in independent committers? Its my understanding that the project is very focussed on encouraging new committers and that this is having results. Where? It seems to me that if it were having results, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I am happy to hear that Tuscany is open to new developers, but if we want a base level of diversity, we need to actually have those new developers, not just be open to them. Cross-fertilization between projects (Tuscany, Ode, CXF, Synapse, ServiceMix, et al) is one way to improve diversity, as well as improve synergies and integration. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Paul Fremantle wrote: I think Tuscany is ready to graduate because: 1) I understand it to have met the base requirements of the IPMC in terms of independent committers Apparently a bare minimum, with very little active work from independents? However, I agree that there is a strong numerical bias towards one company. I think the IPMC needs to take that into consideration during this vote. Wouldn't the community be healthier if it focused some effort on bringing in independent committers? As with Jim, I'm leaning towards a -1 vote because although I agree with everything else, diversity is lacking in Tuscany (and CXF). --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/18/07, Raymond Feng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks pretty good to me. Thanks, Raymond - Original Message - From: ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: general@incubator.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project On 10/17/07, Simon Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components. These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words? ...ant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sounds ok to me. Simon
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Looks good to me. Kelvin. On 18/10/2007, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/17/07, Simon Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components. These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words? ...ant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Folks, ant elder wrote: On 10/17/07, Simon Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components. These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words? ...ant Yes, fine with me. Yours, Mike. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Seems ok with me too. - Venkat On 10/17/07, Simon Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luciano Resende wrote: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components, where the components may be written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. From the paragraph above, should we use ...where the components may be written using any of a wide range of technologies... to allow for script/dynamic languages, and other technologies such as BPEL, etc ? I think changing programming languages to technologies is an improvement. This language would also encompass declarative components like XQuery. I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components. These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. Simon On 10/16/07, Jean-Sebastien Delfino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike Edwards wrote: Folks, ant elder wrote: snip Having both the last two sentences start This software will... doesn't sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the for distribution at no charge... bit up to the top that seems better, which gives: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group. That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone can come up with some better wording I could live with that. ...ant I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect that most people would be mystified by the section: distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I hope that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA and SDO since these are two core standards that are implemented by Tuscany. ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components, where the components may be written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. Yours, Mike. This version looks better to me. I was a little mystified by the linguistically heterogeneous part as well :) I like the built as compositions of service components which describes well what we do in Tuscany and the fact that you explicitly mention the SCA and SDO standards. -- Jean-Sebastien - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/13/07, Bertrand Delacretaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...+1 for graduation, with these two edits Not sure if the vote is still going, but considering the current discussions and uncertainty about community diversity, I change my vote to a +0. IMHO, our current 3 independent committers rule needs to be refined (see also the Graduation: how do we check three or more independent committers thread here). -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On Oct 15, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote: Noel I've expressed some concern before about diversity and independence [1]. At the time, 11 out of 12 members proposed for the TLP's PMC worked for a single organization. Since then, a couple more people have been added but the ratio is still 13 out of 16. Yes, there are 3 organizations represented but control still lies with one bloc. FWIW, if I were a Mentor, I would not be of the mind to approve graduation. CXF, a podling of which I am a Mentor, is in a very, very similar position, and I will continue to lobby against its graduation until there is more diversity. IMO, this is a key aspect of Mentorship: looking beyond the simple numbers and seeing how much diversity there really is. I have not yet cast my vote for Tuscany graduation yet, but I am leaning towards a -1... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/17/07, Simon Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components. These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words? ...ant
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
It looks pretty good to me. Thanks, Raymond - Original Message - From: ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: general@incubator.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project On 10/17/07, Simon Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components. These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. That sounds ok to me, is everyone else happy with these words? ...ant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Folks, ant elder wrote: snip Having both the last two sentences start This software will... doesn't sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the for distribution at no charge... bit up to the top that seems better, which gives: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group. That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone can come up with some better wording I could live with that. ...ant I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect that most people would be mystified by the section: distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I hope that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA and SDO since these are two core standards that are implemented by Tuscany. ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components, where the components may be written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. Yours, Mike. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Mike Edwards wrote: Folks, ant elder wrote: snip Having both the last two sentences start This software will... doesn't sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the for distribution at no charge... bit up to the top that seems better, which gives: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group. That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone can come up with some better wording I could live with that. ...ant I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect that most people would be mystified by the section: distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I hope that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA and SDO since these are two core standards that are implemented by Tuscany. ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components, where the components may be written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. Yours, Mike. This version looks better to me. I was a little mystified by the linguistically heterogeneous part as well :) I like the built as compositions of service components which describes well what we do in Tuscany and the fact that you explicitly mention the SCA and SDO standards. -- Jean-Sebastien - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components, where the components may be written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. From the paragraph above, should we use ...where the components may be written using any of a wide range of technologies... to allow for script/dynamic languages, and other technologies such as BPEL, etc ? On 10/16/07, Jean-Sebastien Delfino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike Edwards wrote: Folks, ant elder wrote: snip Having both the last two sentences start This software will... doesn't sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the for distribution at no charge... bit up to the top that seems better, which gives: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group. That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone can come up with some better wording I could live with that. ...ant I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect that most people would be mystified by the section: distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I hope that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA and SDO since these are two core standards that are implemented by Tuscany. ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components, where the components may be written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. Yours, Mike. This version looks better to me. I was a little mystified by the linguistically heterogeneous part as well :) I like the built as compositions of service components which describes well what we do in Tuscany and the fact that you explicitly mention the SCA and SDO standards. -- Jean-Sebastien - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Luciano Resende Apache Tuscany Committer http://people.apache.org/~lresende http://lresende.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Luciano Resende wrote: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components, where the components may be written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. From the paragraph above, should we use ...where the components may be written using any of a wide range of technologies... to allow for script/dynamic languages, and other technologies such as BPEL, etc ? I think changing programming languages to technologies is an improvement. This language would also encompass declarative components like XQuery. I wonder if we could shorten this just a little. How about: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components. These components may be implemented with a range of technologies and connected using a variety of communication protocols. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. Simon On 10/16/07, Jean-Sebastien Delfino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike Edwards wrote: Folks, ant elder wrote: snip Having both the last two sentences start This software will... doesn't sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the for distribution at no charge... bit up to the top that seems better, which gives: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group. That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone can come up with some better wording I could live with that. ...ant I'm sorry, but I don't find this wording at all convincing. I suspect that most people would be mystified by the section: distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies So, let me try another version, which turns out to be longer, but I hope that it is easier to comprehend. I also explicitly mention SCA and SDO since these are two core standards that are implemented by Tuscany. ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications built as compositions of service components, where the components may be written using any of a wide range of programming languages and where the components can be connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, the SCA and SDO standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA member section. Yours, Mike. This version looks better to me. I was a little mystified by the linguistically heterogeneous part as well :) I like the built as compositions of service components which describes well what we do in Tuscany and the fact that you explicitly mention the SCA and SDO standards. -- Jean-Sebastien - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/13/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip So bringing together all the comments so far gives something like: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public. the concatination makes last sentence is a little ambiguous. might be better to either start another sentence This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group. This software will be distribution at no charge to the public. or move the phrase next to open source: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public maybe someone on the board could jump with guideance - robert Having both the last two sentences start This software will... doesn't sound perfect to me so if we are able to move the for distribution at no charge... bit up to the top that seems better, which gives: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public, that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically heterogeneous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group. That first sentence is starting to get quite long but unless anyone can come up with some better wording I could live with that. ...ant
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On Oct 13, 2007, at 10:07 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Ant, Are there any issues that should be pointed out, such as the (hopefully) mechanical licensing header issue in stdcxx, or community diversity, which at least in part is measuring independence from corporate backing (a popular thread this past month)? It seems that the latter should be well in hand, but I'll not assume. :-) Noel I've expressed some concern before about diversity and independence [1]. At the time, 11 out of 12 members proposed for the TLP's PMC worked for a single organization. Since then, a couple more people have been added but the ratio is still 13 out of 16. Yes, there are 3 organizations represented but control still lies with one bloc. The project has voted in 19 new committers, but 12 of those work for the same organization as above. Many have dropped out - at this time there are only 2 committers active[2] who don't work for that organization, compared to 11 who do. Neither of the two independents are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO (they are committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS). Taking a quick sample of the mailing list, the only contributors to the discussion thread on Graduation, which I would assume would have been a hot topic, were from the vendor. I think more work is needed to reduce the dependency on and influence by a single corporate. -- Jeremy [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ws-tuscany-dev/ 200710.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] [2] commit in the last 3 months - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Jeremy Neither of the two independents are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO (they are committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS). Is it stated somewhere that the Java SCA/SDO components are core compared to C++ and DAS? Taking a quick sample of the mailing list, the only contributors to the discussion thread on Graduation, which I would assume would have been a hot topic, were from the vendor. I remember contributing to discussion on Graduation. Maybe you don't count me? I know I'm an ex-corporate but then so are you! Paul -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2 OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On Oct 15, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Paul Fremantle wrote: Jeremy Neither of the two independents are active in the core project areas of Java SCA or SDO (they are committing to the C++ implementation or to DAS). Is it stated somewhere that the Java SCA/SDO components are core compared to C++ and DAS? s/core/most active/ I still find it odd that Tuscany is aiming for graduation when in the two most active sections of the project there are no active independents. Taking a quick sample of the mailing list, the only contributors to the discussion thread on Graduation, which I would assume would have been a hot topic, were from the vendor. I remember contributing to discussion on Graduation. Maybe you don't count me? I know I'm an ex-corporate but then so are you! I was thinking primarily of people who were on the TLP PMC proposal. But yes, you and Matthew did help draft that proposal. As the diversity sub-thread was taken to the private list (which is kind of ironic in itself) there may also have been some discussion there I missed as well. As a mentor you are much closer to the project than I am - why do you think Tuscany is ready to graduate with such a skewed PMC and committer base? -- Jeremy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
I was thinking primarily of people who were on the TLP PMC proposal. But yes, you and Matthew did help draft that proposal. I also took part in some other discussions. As the diversity sub-thread was taken to the private list (which is kind of ironic in itself) there may also have been some discussion there I missed as well. As a mentor you are much closer to the project than I am - why do you think Tuscany is ready to graduate with such a skewed PMC and committer base? I think Tuscany is ready to graduate because: 1) I understand it to have met the base requirements of the IPMC in terms of independent committers 2) It has survived key members of the project jumping ship and forking the code* 3) It seems to me to have an open, welcoming and fair attitude to new committers and contributers 4) The Tuscany team has a clear understanding of the Apache IP rules and release process. However, I agree that there is a strong numerical bias towards one company. I think the IPMC needs to take that into consideration during this vote. Paul * Personally I think you should have disclosed your previous involvement in this project to the IPMC when you started this thread.
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/15/07, Jeremy Boynes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Taking a quick sample of the mailing list, the only contributors to the discussion thread on Graduation, which I would assume would have been a hot topic, were from the vendor. I remember contributing to discussion on Graduation. Maybe you don't count me? I know I'm an ex-corporate but then so are you! I was thinking primarily of people who were on the TLP PMC proposal. But yes, you and Matthew did help draft that proposal. As the diversity sub-thread was taken to the private list (which is kind of ironic in itself) there may also have been some discussion there I missed as well. As a mentor you are much closer to the project than I am - why do you think Tuscany is ready to graduate with such a skewed PMC and committer base? Also as a mentor on Tuscany here is how my thinking goes: 1. Tuscany has these 3 independent developers and whether they're good enough to qualify is, I think, not very relevant. In fact I'm sure you'll find a lot of Apache projects with only one or two individuals at the core who could be from the same company. And where does the core stops? What is the core of SCA and SDO? I think that's a non issue. (As a side note, I'm not so big on the 3 external developers rule just because it's a fixed number. Depending on the project, this could be not enough or too drastic (do we forbid graduation for a 4 persons project where 2 are from the same company?). I think it's more subjective). 2. I believe Tuscany has proven to be open toward the acceptance of new committers in a meritocratic way and has been welcoming. They're fairly open in their decision process and even if there's a big majority of developers from a single company, the communication and decisions are done on the mailing-lists, seeking consensus. 3. They know what the IP issues are and address the eventual problems appropriately. They've done numerous releases. 4. I'm not too worried about Tuscany potential orphanage. SCA is still in its infancy as a spec but I'm personally convinced that it has enough mind share and will continue to gather more. Even if all the individuals belonging to this same company were to leave, I'm pretty sure Tuscany would continue (not saying it would continue exactly in the same way, just that the project would remain active and supported) with the others and more. 5. They've been in the incubator for a while and I think got most of what there is to get here. Staying in longer wouldn't add much to the project. So for all these reasons I believe Tuscany is ready for graduation. But I'll continue to follow them afterward and I'm sure a lot of others will (probably including you). Cheers, Matthieu -- Jeremy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Synapse isn't just SOAP/WSDL [WAS] Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Noel Just an aside. Synapse implements a number of standards, and is not limited to SOAP/WSDL. We have simple samples that take CSV files from FTP and publish pure XML/JMS. I also think that ServiceMix would like to say they do more than JBI. Paul On 10/13/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Burrell Donkin wrote: Tuscany will implement relevant open standards including ... As previously noted, the core standards for Tuscany are SCA and SDO, with others as desired by the community. What distinguishes Tuscany from ServiceMix from Synapse is: Tuscany: SCA / SDO ServiceMix: JBI Synapse: WSDL / SOAP --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2 OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com
Re: Synapse isn't just SOAP/WSDL [WAS] Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Agreed. This is why we have avoided putting JBI in the ServiceMix TLP charter. In addition, ServiceMix may provide support for SCA in the future, has JBI and SCA are not incompatible at all (this may be done leveraging some parts of Tuscany, but not necesseraly, as the only interesting bit of Tuscany for ServiceMix would be the optional Java programming model). FYI, here is the charter for ServiceMix: an extensible messaging bus for service integration, mediation and composition. On 10/14/07, Paul Fremantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Noel Just an aside. Synapse implements a number of standards, and is not limited to SOAP/WSDL. We have simple samples that take CSV files from FTP and publish pure XML/JMS. I also think that ServiceMix would like to say they do more than JBI. Paul On 10/13/07, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Burrell Donkin wrote: Tuscany will implement relevant open standards including ... As previously noted, the core standards for Tuscany are SCA and SDO, with others as desired by the community. What distinguishes Tuscany from ServiceMix from Synapse is: Tuscany: SCA / SDO ServiceMix: JBI Synapse: WSDL / SOAP --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2 OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com -- Cheers, Guillaume Nodet Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/12/07, Matthieu Riou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +1 on graduation, with the two edits proposed by Mike... +1 for graduation, with these two edits. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/12/07, Mike Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Burrell Donkin wrote: snip On 10/12/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip 2. grrr SOA! i'm unclear what this really means in this case. though i've been following the lists for quite a while now, i still find it really hard to understand the target use cases are for tuscany. is it possible to accurately describe what what tuscany is used for without using buzzwords? I must admit that I hadn't perceived SOA as a buzzword. I agree that it is a deliberately imprecise term, but that it does describe a general architectural approach to building applications. Do you think we need to build some paragraphs here that describe what service-oriented architecture means? the problem with meta-architectures is that most have no canonical definition or description and so the same term means different things to different people. once a meta-architecture gets hot, it leads to outbreaks of Humpty Dumpty syndrome - When I use a word, it means exactly what I intend it to mean, no more, no less.. IMHO SOA has now reached this stage. As for the target use cases for Tuscany - it is when you want to build a distributed application from independently acting, loosely coupled service components, which may be written using any of a range of programming technologies (Java, C++, Ruby, PHP) and which may be connected using any of a range of communication technologies (Web services, REST, JMS, RMI-IIOP). ^ some would say that SOA excludes REST. perhaps tuscany may (one day) want to wire up ROA as well as SOA ;-) anyway, tuscany simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies maybe it would be better to state this unambiguously rather than relying on the correct interpretation of an ill-defined buzzword snip 4. does tuscany really want to limit itself to a single standard? if another organisation created standards in this same area, would tuscany really wish to exclude itself from creating an implementation? No, Tuscany does not want to limit itself - indeed it already uses other standards like some of the WS-* standards. We had thought that the wording above didn't imply any limitation, but if we're mistaken in that view, perhaps we need to add some explicit words like: ...based on but not limited to... 'based on' worries me - the language seems to me to be uncomfortably close to 'derived from'. it's also a long sentence. perhaps something like Tuscany will implement relevant open standards including ... would be better - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/12/07, Mike Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Burrell Donkin wrote: snip On 10/12/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip 2. grrr SOA! i'm unclear what this really means in this case. though i've been following the lists for quite a while now, i still find it really hard to understand the target use cases are for tuscany. is it possible to accurately describe what what tuscany is used for without using buzzwords? I must admit that I hadn't perceived SOA as a buzzword. I agree that it is a deliberately imprecise term, but that it does describe a general architectural approach to building applications. Do you think we need to build some paragraphs here that describe what service-oriented architecture means? the problem with meta-architectures is that most have no canonical definition or description and so the same term means different things to different people. once a meta-architecture gets hot, it leads to outbreaks of Humpty Dumpty syndrome - When I use a word, it means exactly what I intend it to mean, no more, no less.. IMHO SOA has now reached this stage. As for the target use cases for Tuscany - it is when you want to build a distributed application from independently acting, loosely coupled service components, which may be written using any of a range of programming technologies (Java, C++, Ruby, PHP) and which may be connected using any of a range of communication technologies (Web services, REST, JMS, RMI-IIOP). ^ some would say that SOA excludes REST. perhaps tuscany may (one day) want to wire up ROA as well as SOA ;-) anyway, tuscany simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies maybe it would be better to state this unambiguously rather than relying on the correct interpretation of an ill-defined buzzword snip 4. does tuscany really want to limit itself to a single standard? if another organisation created standards in this same area, would tuscany really wish to exclude itself from creating an implementation? No, Tuscany does not want to limit itself - indeed it already uses other standards like some of the WS-* standards. We had thought that the wording above didn't imply any limitation, but if we're mistaken in that view, perhaps we need to add some explicit words like: ...based on but not limited to... 'based on' worries me - the language seems to me to be uncomfortably close to 'derived from'. it's also a long sentence. perhaps something like Tuscany will implement relevant open standards including ... would be better - robert So bringing together all the comments so far gives something like: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public. I'll wait a while to see if there's any further comments over this and if not restart a clean vote thread. ...ant
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/13/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip So bringing together all the comments so far gives something like: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public. the concatination makes last sentence is a little ambiguous. might be better to either start another sentence This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group. This software will be distribution at no charge to the public. or move the phrase next to open source: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at no charge to the public maybe someone on the board could jump with guideance - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/13/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/13/07, Robert Burrell Donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip So bringing together all the comments so far gives something like: ...establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies the development, deployment and management of distributed applications composed of independently acting, loosely coupled, linguistically hetrogenous components connected using any of a wide range of communication technologies. This software will implement relevant open standards including, but not limited to, standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public. the concatination makes last sentence is a little ambiguous. might be better to either start another sentence it's wonderfully ironic that my grammar critique is not a sentence (or at least, not in english) - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote: Tuscany will implement relevant open standards including ... As previously noted, the core standards for Tuscany are SCA and SDO, with others as desired by the community. What distinguishes Tuscany from ServiceMix from Synapse is: Tuscany: SCA / SDO ServiceMix: JBI Synapse: WSDL / SOAP --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Ant, Are there any issues that should be pointed out, such as the (hopefully) mechanical licensing header issue in stdcxx, or community diversity, which at least in part is measuring independence from corporate backing (a popular thread this past month)? It seems that the latter should be well in hand, but I'll not assume. :-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
+1 from me (IPMC and Mentor) Paul On 10/12/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Tuscany podling respectfully requests the Incubator to consider its graduation to a Top Level Project. While incubating Tuscany has made 14(!) releases, voted in 19 new committers, survived conflicts, formed its PPMC, learned how to govern itself, resolved licensing issues and an active community continues to grow around Tuscany. The community vote for graduation can be found on the Tuscany dev list at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg24675.html We have prepared the resolution below to be presented for consideration at the upcoming Board meeting. We invite everyone to vote to approve this proposal. Many thanks, ...ant Establish the Apache Tuscany project: WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public. NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management Committee (PMC), to be known as the Apache Tuscany Project, be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it further RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of software related to Apache Tuscany; and be it further RESOLVED, that the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany be and hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the Apache Tuscany Project, and to have primary responsibility for management of the projects within the scope of responsibility of the Apache Tuscany Project; and be it further RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the Apache Tuscany Project: Adriano Crestaniadrianocrestani at apache dot org Andrew Borley ajborley at apache dot org Andy Grove agrove at apache dot org ant elder antelder at apache dot org Brady Johnson bjohnson at apache dot org Frank Budinsky frankb at apache dot org Ignacio Silva-Lepe isilval at apache dot org Jean-Sebastien Delfino jsdelfino at apache dot org kelvin goodson kelvingoodson at apache dot org Luciano Resende lresende at apache dot org Mike Edwards edwardsmj at apache dot org Pete Robbinsrobbinspg at apache dot org Raymond Feng rfeng at apache dot org Simon Laws slaws at apache dot org Simon Nash nash at apache dot org Venkata Krishnan svkrish at apache dot org NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Ant Elder be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany, to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be it further RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache Incubator Tuscany podling; and be it further RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache Incubator Tuscany podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator Project are hereafter discharged. -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2 OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
On 10/12/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip some grammar queries Establish the Apache Tuscany project: WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software that ^^^ http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/certificate.html uses open source simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented ^^ applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime ^ which is right? - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
+1 (IPMC and ex-Mentor :) -- dims On 10/12/07, Paul Fremantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +1 from me (IPMC and Mentor) Paul On 10/12/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Tuscany podling respectfully requests the Incubator to consider its graduation to a Top Level Project. While incubating Tuscany has made 14(!) releases, voted in 19 new committers, survived conflicts, formed its PPMC, learned how to govern itself, resolved licensing issues and an active community continues to grow around Tuscany. The community vote for graduation can be found on the Tuscany dev list at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg24675.html We have prepared the resolution below to be presented for consideration at the upcoming Board meeting. We invite everyone to vote to approve this proposal. Many thanks, ...ant Establish the Apache Tuscany project: WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public. NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management Committee (PMC), to be known as the Apache Tuscany Project, be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it further RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of software related to Apache Tuscany; and be it further RESOLVED, that the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany be and hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the Apache Tuscany Project, and to have primary responsibility for management of the projects within the scope of responsibility of the Apache Tuscany Project; and be it further RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the Apache Tuscany Project: Adriano Crestaniadrianocrestani at apache dot org Andrew Borley ajborley at apache dot org Andy Grove agrove at apache dot org ant elder antelder at apache dot org Brady Johnson bjohnson at apache dot org Frank Budinsky frankb at apache dot org Ignacio Silva-Lepe isilval at apache dot org Jean-Sebastien Delfino jsdelfino at apache dot org kelvin goodson kelvingoodson at apache dot org Luciano Resende lresende at apache dot org Mike Edwards edwardsmj at apache dot org Pete Robbinsrobbinspg at apache dot org Raymond Feng rfeng at apache dot org Simon Laws slaws at apache dot org Simon Nash nash at apache dot org Venkata Krishnan svkrish at apache dot org NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Ant Elder be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Tuscany, to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be it further RESOLVED, that the Apache Tuscany Project be and hereby is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache Incubator Tuscany podling; and be it further RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache Incubator Tuscany podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator Project are hereafter discharged. -- Paul Fremantle Co-Founder and VP of Technical Sales, WSO2 OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oxygenating the Web Service Platform, www.wso2.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
snip On 10/12/07, ant elder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Establish the Apache Tuscany project: WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software that simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented applications and provides a managed service-oriented runtime based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group, for distribution at no charge to the public. 1. is 'based' the right term? 2. grrr SOA! i'm unclear what this really means in this case. though i've been following the lists for quite a while now, i still find it really hard to understand the target use cases are for tuscany. is it possible to accurately describe what what tuscany is used for without using buzzwords? 3. is the definition a little ambiguous? ((simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented applications) and (provides a managed service-oriented runtime)) based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group vs (simplifies the development and deployment of service oriented applications) and ((provides a managed service-oriented runtime) based on the standards defined by the OASIS OpenCSA group) 4. does tuscany really want to limit itself to a single standard? if another organisation created standards in this same area, would tuscany really wish to exclude itself from creating an implementation? - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
