Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Sam Ruby]

Frans Thamura wrote:
>
> JBoss (Marc) wants to full time in JBoss, buy commercialing Documentation,
> and want to add forum to his web site (we will see it soon).. because he
> don't agree with Apache model (volunteer). I think that is true..

Remember that companies come and go too.  I don't believe that the important 
distinction is between volunteer and commercial.

What is important is the community that forms around the piece of software.  JBoss 
clearly has such a community.

> This is the hierarchy..
> PMC (We called it solution leader) --> Program Manager --> Project
> Manager --> Project Leader (always 2, Techical Leader, and Project
> Coordinator / Documentator --) --> Commiter (Senior Developer) -->
> Contributor (Developer) --> Developer.

Apache is not a hierarchy in that sense.

Each project is largely independent.  From an Apache perspective, the
committers on the project are peers and represent the top of their own
hierarchy.   Undoubtably, within projects, informal arrangements are formed
and leaders emerge, and such arrangements evolve over time.

The Jakarta PMC provides a minimum of oversight.  There are a few legal and
licensing issues that will get us involved quickly, but we generally don't
set technical direction.

> But, I see there is a good and bad things in every model, esp, when the
> leader is gone (like my sample is Stefano, and I found Kevin the
> burtantor --- never get his commit in his Jetspeed in this year.. except his
> email for launching a OpenPrivacy.org - busy with Reptile :) )...  Hi
> Kevin...
>
> The cocoon development still continue...and the cocoon 2 is better, but.. I
> have to scratch all the cocoon project because using cocoon 1.8.3..I work
> for 1 year for that.. learn from how to install, and try to learn behavior
> of Cocoon...
>
> This happen in Jetspeed from 1.3a1 to 1.3a2, but thanks they only change to
> .xreg, extension only..

Clearly, Cocoon has a healthier development community than Jetspeed at this
point in time.  Again, the distinction isn't between volunteer and
commercial.

> I think, if there is a new way of development (may be in Apache), where
> someone responsible to a tips and trick of beginner guide of a project,
> there will be hundreds new developer involve with the project, and may be
> more contributor, and may be more developer.. or something clear track from
> version to version...

Are you volunteering?  Any efforts along those lines would certainly be
welcome.  And if you have a commercial model in mind, that's OK too.

> Or, may be do you want to keep it, because may be the Open Source Project,
> or may be Microsoft will steal it... :(, I don't think this is a good..

Everybody is welcome to "steal" or contribute to Apache... even Microsoft.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Frans Thamura]

I am not working now (a freelance project for web design and
implementation), before that I worked at Andersen Business Consulting, as a
technical consultant, and quit, because I see almost the Big 5 don't have a
vision.

Frans Thamura



- Original Message -
From: "Stephane Bailliez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: Comment for Apache.org


> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> [...]
> > The most important thing to remember is that we are all
> > volunteers here,
> > and we are not alone. If you don't want to do something, don't do it.
> > Someone else will step in ... that's what meritocracy is all about.
>
> > The more you do, the more you are expected to do. The
> > corollary is, the less you do, the more someone else will do instead.
>
>
> Your statements are OK for Apache projects since they are based on
volunteer
> contributions because we all bring our own brick to the building.
>
> Unfortunately they are far from being true everywhere.
>
> If you know a place where there is no such bad attitude, then please name
> your company and location so that I can remember it... it's always nice to
> know :)
>
> Stephane
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Ted Husted]

here
> someone responsible to a tips and trick of beginner guide of a project,
> there will be hundreds new developer involve with the project, and may be
> more contributor, and may be more developer.. or something clear track from
> version to version...
> 
> Or, may be do you want to keep it, because may be the Open Source Project,
> or may be Microsoft will steal it... :(, I don't think this is a good..
> 
> Because, I cannot find a proposal track that will be implemeted in every
> project in Apache, but I get it in JBoss, when JBoss want to add JMS
> feature...
> 
> Is my brain think good??? I just want to share what i think to all of you..
> Feedback is very welcomed.
> 
> Oke, sorry the email, think postively of this, sorry if there is a negative
> think of this..I just want to make it clear..
> 
> Frans Thamura
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kevin A. Burton - burtonator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
> 
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > > The list is named [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Ok, I suggest the creation of such mailing list and the creation of
> > > a "Jon" page explaining the whole "Jon issue"... linked from Jakarta's
> > > home page, of course.
> > 
> >
> > Hm... Is Jon becoming the Richard Stallman of the Apache Software
> Foundation
> >
> > ;) ;)
> >
> > ha.
> >
> > - --
> > Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
> >  Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
> > Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
> >
> > Without enlightenment, there is only ignorance.
> >   -- famous Zen Koan
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> > Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt
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> > 5n1ERcHsxeNulR8yvrNjoRc=
> > =LR7V
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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Stephane Bailliez]

> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

[...]
> The most important thing to remember is that we are all 
> volunteers here,
> and we are not alone. If you don't want to do something, don't do it.
> Someone else will step in ... that's what meritocracy is all about. 

> The more you do, the more you are expected to do. The 
> corollary is, the less you do, the more someone else will do instead.


Your statements are OK for Apache projects since they are based on volunteer
contributions because we all bring our own brick to the building.

Unfortunately they are far from being true everywhere.

If you know a place where there is no such bad attitude, then please name
your company and location so that I can remember it... it's always nice to
know :)

Stephane

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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Frans Thamura]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the email, and also Jon.. ;).. I just want and try to integrate
the PMC model with JBoss, and my own model..I think this will be a good
model, even for my company that use several open source project component.

I just want to compare my experience in managing project and Jboss model
with Apache model..

JBoss (Marc) wants to full time in JBoss, buy commercialing Documentation,
and want to add forum to his web site (we will see it soon).. because he
don't agree with Apache model (volunteer). I think that is true..

But, I see there is a good and bad things in every model, esp, when the
leader is gone (like my sample is Stefano, and I found Kevin the
burtantor --- never get his commit in his Jetspeed in this year.. except his
email for launching a OpenPrivacy.org - busy with Reptile :) )...  Hi
Kevin...

The cocoon development still continue...and the cocoon 2 is better, but.. I
have to scratch all the cocoon project because using cocoon 1.8.3..I work
for 1 year for that.. learn from how to install, and try to learn behavior
of Cocoon...

This happen in Jetspeed from 1.3a1 to 1.3a2, but thanks they only change to
.xreg, extension only..

But, where is the draft of the xreg?? I just can find it in proposal folder
in CVS..

- Is there a way that in progress from the PMC, to increase the rapid of
development of their project using this method (I call it traditional
method) for a developer not in commiter level?? So all developer who
interest with development of open source can learn the project in faster,
may be 1-2 weeks, and after that can try to play around with the code..

Several people can read the code, but my approach in my company, try to make
like a pseudo code or diagrm to explain of it, before the script is created.

- I try to create a model, because several of my software is based on Open
Source Project (Cocoon, Jetspeed).

This is the hierarchy..
PMC (We called it solution leader) --> Program Manager --> Project
Manager --> Project Leader (always 2, Techical Leader, and Project
Coordinator / Documentator --) --> Commiter (Senior Developer) -->
Contributor (Developer) --> Developer.

I see Sun's Java, implementing specification for Servlet, J2EE, etc..and
after the final spec, they create a software, where i cannot find it in
Apache.. I see there is several project's proposal in JavaDoc, I think this
is not a good solution. isn't it???

But, honestly, the apache project, is more interesting, but harder to
implement.. esp for an user that want to use more than 2 project in their
application..

I think, if there is a new way of development (may be in Apache), where
someone responsible to a tips and trick of beginner guide of a project,
there will be hundreds new developer involve with the project, and may be
more contributor, and may be more developer.. or something clear track from
version to version...

Or, may be do you want to keep it, because may be the Open Source Project,
or may be Microsoft will steal it... :(, I don't think this is a good..

Because, I cannot find a proposal track that will be implemeted in every
project in Apache, but I get it in JBoss, when JBoss want to add JMS
feature...

Is my brain think good??? I just want to share what i think to all of you..
Feedback is very welcomed.

Oke, sorry the email, think postively of this, sorry if there is a negative
think of this..I just want to make it clear..


Frans Thamura







- Original Message -
From: "Kevin A. Burton - burtonator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org


> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > > The list is named [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Ok, I suggest the creation of such mailing list and the creation of
> > a "Jon" page explaining the whole "Jon issue"... linked from Jakarta's
> > home page, of course.
> 
>
> Hm... Is Jon becoming the Richard Stallman of the Apache Software
Foundation
>
> ;) ;)
>
> ha.
>
> - --
> Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] )
>  Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
> Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
>
> Without enlightenment, there is only ignorance.
>   -- famous Zen Koan
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt
>
> iD8DBQE8Fw8eAwM6xb2dfE0RArjpAKCOCX495SaPwyj7PAN60PWv58rfUQCgmC3K
> 5n1ERcHsxeNulR8yvrNjoRc=
> =LR7V
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Ted Husted]

Stephane Bailliez wrote:
> I just had the same problem a couple of hours ago. Someone asked how to
> retrieve the servlet parameters from web.xml, I replied with the link to the
> servlet api..then I got a private email "please help, could you give the
> name of class that does it". Like what he did not even read the docs

Personally, if its an email I don't want to answer, I either ignore it
or refer them to the user list. 

"The best place to post a question like this is ..., where there are
more people to help you."

If I do feel like replying, I usually reply to the list instead, so it
ends up on the archive. 

If a user posts a USER list question to DEV, I often do both. 

"The best place to post a question like this is the USER list, but  "

Just so I don't have to deal with it again later. 

If it's a question to the Jakarta webmaster box, I refer them to the
USER list for the product, and include a link to Jon's very excellent
"Jakarta Mailing Lists for Dummies" page. (I really need to put one of
these in front of the Webmaster link sometime.)

Most often, it's not what you say, but what you don't say. Usually, it's
just a matter of leaving out the trailing ", idiot" clause. This saves
everyone energy all around.

The most important thing to remember is that we are all volunteers here,
and we are not alone. If you don't want to do something, don't do it.
Someone else will step in ... that's what meritocracy is all about. 

The more you do, the more you are expected to do. The corollary is, the
less you do, the more someone else will do instead.

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel +1 716 737-3463
-- http://www.husted.com/struts/

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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Stephane Bailliez]

> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

[...]
> Now, I'm going to go back and start writing some more code 
> (and answering
> some more user questions).  I suggest we all do the same.


Craig,

While I more than vastly respect the huge work you are doing in both
contributed code and user questions answers (I'm puzzled at how productive
you are compared to me and how you can answer hundred of times the same
question in a relax attitude !), I have no idea what is the right attitude
to adopt in some cases...

There is some part of user education..what are we supposed to do then..say
"oh well bear with it" or try to educate users sometimes in a rude way like
parents do with their children (probably more in Europe than in US though)

I was sometimes kicked by Jon, but eh, he was damn right, I was being stupid
and did not do my homework. It sometimes happens to Jon as well too, but we
are all human and make mistakes and should put back on the right way
sometimes. If we do not then we take everything for granted.

I just had the same problem a couple of hours ago. Someone asked how to
retrieve the servlet parameters from web.xml, I replied with the link to the
servlet api..then I got a private email "please help, could you give the
name of class that does it". Like what he did not even read the docs

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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Kevin A. Burton - burtonator]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

"Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > The list is named [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Ok, I suggest the creation of such mailing list and the creation of 
> a "Jon" page explaining the whole "Jon issue"... linked from Jakarta's
> home page, of course.


Hm... Is Jon becoming the Richard Stallman of the Apache Software Foundation

;) ;)

ha.

- -- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

Without enlightenment, there is only ignorance.
  -- famous Zen Koan
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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Paulo Gaspar]

> The list is named [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Ok, I suggest the creation of such mailing list and the creation of 
a "Jon" page explaining the whole "Jon issue"... linked from Jakarta's
home page, of course.

This way we can save the newbies and Jon can keep being... er... Jon!
=:o)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: GOMEZ Henri [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:12 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: Comment for Apache.org
> 
> 
> >> In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are 
> >> just leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the
> >> Jakarta project 
> >
> 
> Everybody could disagree with someone but the generally accepted 
> rule is to stay correct with the person. There is many forums on 
> the web to do run such dialogs.
> 
> Better, I suggest people who want to flam Jon, to do it directly
> and leave this list a bit more quiet. 
> 
> The list is named [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> --
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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Scott Tavares]

- Original Message -
From: "robert burrell donkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



> if you want things to change, then you need to do something about it (am i
> sounding like jon? ;) if you were to answer newbie questions - to the best
> of your ability - then jon wouldn't have to make time to answer them.


Who ever said jon HAD to answer anyone? If he can't answer with some
resemblance of a mature adult instead of like a snotty nosed 12yo brat he
should just shut the hell up and say nothing. But just like a snotty nosed
12yo brat it seems he doesn't have the mental capacity to help himself and
therefore needs to be treated like one.




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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Paulo Gaspar]

> He's busy these days, so we can all take turns proxying for
> him, with the caveat that you have to work hard on Jakarta stuff like he
> does to be a proxy.

Who are you trying to fool?
You would be never able to impersonate him!!!
=;o)

Paulo

P.S.: And I am not talking about working hard.


> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:27 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
> 
> 
> On 12/11/01 5:12 PM, "GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >>> In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are
> >>> just leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the
> >>> Jakarta project
> >> 
> > 
> > Everybody could disagree with someone but the generally accepted
> > rule is to stay correct with the person. There is many forums on
> > the web to do run such dialogs.
> > 
> > Better, I suggest people who want to flam Jon, to do it directly
> > and leave this list a bit more quiet.
> > 
> > The list is named [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> 
> How about we set up that list, and use PayPal to collect 
> donations for some
> worthy cause (chosen by jon, of course) for people that want to publicly
> flame jon...  He's busy these days, so we can all take turns proxying for
> him, with the caveat that you have to work hard on Jakarta stuff like he
> does to be a proxy.
> 
> Anyone with $$ can flame, of course.
> 
> geir
> 
> -- 
> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System and Software Consulting
> "Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by 
> subduing the
> freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 12/11/01 5:12 PM, "GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>> In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are
>>> just leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the
>>> Jakarta project
>> 
> 
> Everybody could disagree with someone but the generally accepted
> rule is to stay correct with the person. There is many forums on
> the web to do run such dialogs.
> 
> Better, I suggest people who want to flam Jon, to do it directly
> and leave this list a bit more quiet.
> 
> The list is named [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

How about we set up that list, and use PayPal to collect donations for some
worthy cause (chosen by jon, of course) for people that want to publicly
flame jon...  He's busy these days, so we can all take turns proxying for
him, with the caveat that you have to work hard on Jakarta stuff like he
does to be a proxy.

Anyone with $$ can flame, of course.

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin



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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[GOMEZ Henri]

>> In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are 
>> just leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the
>> Jakarta project 
>

Everybody could disagree with someone but the generally accepted 
rule is to stay correct with the person. There is many forums on 
the web to do run such dialogs.

Better, I suggest people who want to flam Jon, to do it directly
and leave this list a bit more quiet. 

The list is named [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Ignacio J. Ortega]

> 
> I vastly respect Jon's contributions to Apache -- but I'm disappointed
> that he doesn't seem to care that his approach to email makes 
> the overall
> community smaller than it otherwise would be (due to people not being
> willing to deal with his style).
> 

Thanks Craig, Sorry Jon, I Agree..

Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega



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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, robert burrell donkin wrote:

>
> if you want things to change, then you need to do something about it (am i
> sounding like jon? ;) if you were to answer newbie questions - to the best
> of your ability - then jon wouldn't have to make time to answer them.
> there's something in it for you too, since you'll learn far more by
> answering questions than you will by lurking. everybody would be a little
> happier.
>

This version of this same old thread isn't going to accomplish anything.

However, as a person who has been around Apache for a long time (including
working with Jon directly on Apache JServ), as a person who contributes a
lot of code also, and as a person who *does* take the time to do what
Robert suggests and answers user questions (striving to do so in a manner
that is polite and respectful, and *usually* succeeding at that), I'm
going to add one and only one comment.

I vastly respect Jon's contributions to Apache -- but I'm disappointed
that he doesn't seem to care that his approach to email makes the overall
community smaller than it otherwise would be (due to people not being
willing to deal with his style).

Now, I'm going to go back and start writing some more code (and answering
some more user questions).  I suggest we all do the same.

> - robert
>

Craig McClanahan


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 12/11/01 10:32 AM, "Tiseo, Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 4:45 PM
>> 
>> When you come close to 1/5th the amount of work he has done
>> for Apache then you
>> can judge.
> 
> So, if I understand Apache's so-called "meritocracy" system, the
> more you do for a project, the more unprofessional and ego-driven behavior
> you are allowed? So, If Jon doubles his workload, will he then be allowed to
> murder dissenting listmemebers instead of simply insulting them? :)
> 

That sort of thing would come in handy from time to time...  Hmm

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[robert burrell donkin]

On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 03:19 PM, lloyd wrote:

>> In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are
>> just leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the
>> Jakarta project
>
>
> What does one's relative standing in the Jakarta project have to do with
> how you conduct yourself with other project members - or even "leeches",
> for that matter?  It's not like anyone here stepped out of the womb with
> code to contribute.  Presumably they were users first, and then became
> contributors.

jon provides training (in his version) of the way. jon's training methods 
might be considered harsh by many but they are educational. people 
contribute in many ways, not just by coding. for example, if you'd 
answered the original question (before jon had to) then this war would 
never have started and the original poster would have gone away a little 
bit happier. instead, you decided to post a personal attack on jon. 
personal attacks are easy. writing good answers is hard and takes time.

> I have no idea what your past contributions have been, and it isn't
> relevant.  The question is: how much talent have you driven away with
> your insults?

development at apache is very much in the open. having to take 
responsibility for your contribution - whether it's code or mail posted to 
the mailing lists - is very much part of the deal. if you can't take the 
heat, then get out of the kitchen.

> I don't expect anything to change, of course, so I guess the best
> recourse is to offer a suggestion to your defenders:  please, when this
> happens in the future,  contact the original poster immediately and
> explain things.

if you want things to change, then you need to do something about it (am i 
sounding like jon? ;) if you were to answer newbie questions - to the best 
of your ability - then jon wouldn't have to make time to answer them. 
there's something in it for you too, since you'll learn far more by 
answering questions than you will by lurking. everybody would be a little 
happier.

- robert


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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Jim Jagielski]

At 10:32 AM -0500 12/11/01, Tiseo, Paul wrote:
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 4:45 PM
>>
>> When you come close to 1/5th the amount of work he has done
>> for Apache then you
>> can judge.
>
>   So, if I understand Apache's so-called "meritocracy" system, the
>more you do for a project, the more unprofessional and ego-driven behavior
>you are allowed? So, If Jon doubles his workload, will he then be allowed to
>murder dissenting listmemebers instead of simply insulting them? :)
>

I think at the "double workload" level, Jon would only be able to
club baby seals. Murder is a bit higher up... I've got those charts
around here *somewhere*...
-- 
===
   Jim Jagielski   [|]   [EMAIL PROTECTED]   [|]   http://www.jaguNET.com/
  "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order
   will lose both and deserve neither"

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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Tiseo, Paul]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 4:45 PM
> 
> When you come close to 1/5th the amount of work he has done 
> for Apache then you
> can judge.

So, if I understand Apache's so-called "meritocracy" system, the
more you do for a project, the more unprofessional and ego-driven behavior
you are allowed? So, If Jon doubles his workload, will he then be allowed to
murder dissenting listmemebers instead of simply insulting them? :)


Paul Tiseo, Intermediate Systems Programmer
Birdsall 122, Mayo Clinic Jacksonville
4500 San Pablo Rd, FL, 32224
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- (904) 953-8254 / 953-7134 (fax) 

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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[lloyd]

> In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are 
> just leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the
> Jakarta project 


What does one's relative standing in the Jakarta project have to do with
how you conduct yourself with other project members - or even "leeches",
for that matter?  It's not like anyone here stepped out of the womb with
code to contribute.  Presumably they were users first, and then became
contributors.

I have no idea what your past contributions have been, and it isn't 
relevant.  The question is: how much talent have you driven away with
your insults?  

I don't expect anything to change, of course, so I guess the best
recourse is to offer a suggestion to your defenders:  please, when this
happens in the future,  contact the original poster immediately and
explain things.




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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Endre Stølsvik]

On 10 Dec 2001, Kevin A. Burton - burtonator wrote:

| Give jon a break.  With all the hard work he has done he at least deserves the
| benefit of the doubt on all these e-mails.

What about the times when there is no doubt? When he just behaves totally
assholeish?

|
| When you come close to 1/5th the amount of work he has done for Apache then you
| can judge.

This is the stuff I just cannot understand. Being a good coder and good
committer actually gives you the _right_ to be an a .. not nice to
other people on the Jakarta email lists? People that come here for the
first time, doing the wrong thing, posting to the wrong list or something,
they should only expect to be flogged hard by Jon, right? Because he has
earned the right to be rude?

I don't get that.

You jakarta folks should post this on your website, something like: "After
serving the Apache and Jakarta community for about 5 years, you earn the
right to be an asshole. This not only gives you unlimited possibilities to
hurl shit into all Jakarta email lists, but your fellow Jakarta members
will even defend your opinions and your new-earned rights to the bitter
end."

But this time I don't think Jon was that bad, though.. Just a bit rude.
Not a complete asshole, as many other times..


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Punky Tse]

- Original Message -
From: "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> lloyd wrote:
>
> >>Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some
logical
> >>
> >
> > Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> > could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>
>
> Not again.
>
> People, even if you don't like Jon, can we just let this one go please?
> I don't want to see YAFF (Yet Another Flame Fest) on netiquette.
>
>

Never mind, if people want to flame with jon, just go for it.  But at the
end of the day, they will learn *a lot* ;-)

I'd seen this before, in jserv, tomcat-dev and now general list, people had
flamed with jon and still stayed in the list is now getting more mature(and
so does jon), and still willing to contribute to the community with their
technical excellence.

I got this impression is that a few months ago, while jon was on a flame
with another guy, one contributor/committer humorously stated jon was "still
a pain in the *ss".  That contributor/committer had a endless flame with jon
before (may be almost a year before?).   But at that moment, I felt that the
two guys seems to have certain respect with each other  ;-)

And I would say, seeing a true story like this, it was a great joy.

Punky







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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Paulo Gaspar]

Man! 
This is even worse then MY flame wars with Jon!
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo

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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Jon Stevens]

on 12/10/01 6:14 PM, "Scott Tavares" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You also know that I haven't contributed to the Jakarta project in close to
> three years now because you insulted me one too many times.

Lame excuse. Life is full of people you may not like. If you use that as
your excuse for not participating in things, then you might as well not
leave your house either.

The Jakarta project also isn't just me, there are more than enough projects
here that I don't participate in at all and since this is a Meritocracy
founded around the developers, your voice (and complaints) do not have any
weight unless you actually contribute something. People need to realize that
this is not a democracy.

In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are just
leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the Jakarta
project and using emails from me that you may not like as your excuse. I
find that far more offensive than anything I could flame you about.

-jon


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Scott Tavares]

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org


> on 12/10/01 4:43 PM, "Scott Tavares" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE! If YAFF happens it is jon's
fault!
> > Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
> > creating these commotions needlessly.

ttp://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html>
>
> p.s. Scott, I love you too.
>
> -jon
>
>

Yes jon, I know how much you love me. My reply to the link is this: Why
should
I contribute anything if all i'm going to get is insulted for my efforts?
You also know that I haven't contributed to the Jakarta project in close to
three years now because you insulted me one too many times.




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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Jon Stevens]

on 12/10/01 4:43 PM, "Scott Tavares" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE! If YAFF happens it is jon's fault!
> Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
> creating these commotions needlessly.



p.s. Scott, I love you too.

-jon


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Scott Tavares]

Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE! If YAFF happens it is jon's fault!
Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
creating these commotions needlessly.

- Original Message -
From: "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org


> lloyd wrote:
>
> >>Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some
logical
> >>
> >
> > Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> > could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>
>
> Not again.
>
> People, even if you don't like Jon, can we just let this one go please?
> I don't want to see YAFF (Yet Another Flame Fest) on netiquette.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
>   deserve neither liberty nor safety."
>  - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Kevin A. Burton - burtonator]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
> 
> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.

Give jon a break.  With all the hard work he has done he at least deserves the
benefit of the doubt on all these e-mails.

When you come close to 1/5th the amount of work he has done for Apache then you
can judge.

I have no problem with you expressing your viewpoint but calling jon an
"*sshole" was over the top.

If you don't like it, unsubscribe.

Kevin

- -- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds
Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt

iD8DBQE8FSyFAwM6xb2dfE0RAp8iAKCbEpLGQ52WbHE9poEt+eECgpAbRACgw7A3
VIbWAD3QMgVuHh2lIv5oVfQ=
=Fdvt
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 12/10/01 9:08 AM, "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta
> Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things
> are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
> of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
> (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
> weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen.

Weeell  Not exactly sure about that... :)

> 
> lloyd wrote:
>> 
>>> Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>> 
>> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
>> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Sam Ruby]

Frans Thamura wrote:
>
> Cocoon is create by Stefano, what happen if he is very very busy.. who must
> handle this project. And who will responsible for next release.. only
> stefano or everyone.. who interest.. with VOTE of course..

It is very interesting that you picked as your example Stefano and Cocoon.
Stefano did disappear for approximately a year, and you know what happened?
The development of Cocoon continued.

Some of the founding members of Jakarta have become dormant or moved on.
Others have taken their place.

Apache is a true meritocracy.  If you champion a cause through not only
your words but also your contributions, they will be accepted.  Do it for a
sustained period of time, and others will follow your leadership.  There
were a number of projects here that were not meeting my needs, and in some
cases I assumed leadership of those projects for a release or two.
Ultimately, they got to the point where they were meeting my needs, and
others with different requirements took up the leadership role.

This is why we insist so strongly on only accepting new projects that we
feel have a strong potential for establishing a diverse and sustainable
development community.  For more background, see
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Tod Thomas]

Ted Husted wrote:

>
> I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
> of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
> (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
> weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen.

...or maybe its the attention he gets from the comments that provoke his
defense...


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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Paulo Gaspar]

Yes, Jon could improve the package deal a lot if he wanted (just by
cutting the minus side of it) but it does not look like it is going 
to happen.

And I still prefer having him around than the alternative.

Just my 2 (Euro) cents.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 3:08 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
> 
> 
> It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta
> Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things
> are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
> of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
> (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
> weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen. 
> 
> lloyd wrote:
> > 
> > > Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made 
> some logical
> > 
> > Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> > could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Ted Husted]

Frans, 

Jakarta has a Project Management Committee, much the same as XML. We are
all run by the Apache Software Foundation, and have the same ground
rules. 

http://apache.org/foundation/roles.html

There is a private PMC mailing list, but it is rarely used. Most
communication takes place here, on the General List.

Like XML, all of the Jakarta products are run as Meritocracies. One
committer, one vote. If one committer is busy, any other committer can
step in and do whatever is necessary. There is no formal lead for any of
our products. At least three committers must approve a formal release
before it can be made.

Jakarta has been very popular, and there are thousands of people already
involved with this. We appreciate your support, and hope you will be
able to contribute to one of our products some time. 

For more about Jakarta, please visit 

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel +1 716 737-3463
-- http://www.husted.com/struts/

Frans Thamura wrote:
> 
> Dear All,,
> 
> Do you know where the list for comment the apache.org web site..
> 
> Is there a team that responsible for managing the projects of apache
> projects.
> 
> Like in Apache XML may be there is a team that manage that.
> 
> I have been working several years in IT, and managing the project. There is
> a methodology to make a project clear..
> 
> I cannot find it in Apache..
> 
> Because as a model of open source development for volunteer.. Apache's
> project can lost his leader or creator.. may be he is busy, or interest in
> several project.
> 
> but as an Apache.. you must responsible for managing this..
> 
> sample..
> 
> Cocoon is create by Stefano, what happen if he is very very busy.. who must
> handle this project. And who will responsible for next release.. only
> stefano or everyone.. who interest.. with VOTE of course..
> 
> I love a clear project. and it will easy to understand and follow.. trust
> me.. there will be thousands people involve with this.. if everyone can
> understand and use it easily..
> 
> Honestly, Apache project is very great.. i love it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Frans

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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Ted Husted]

It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta
Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things
are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them.

I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
(like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen. 

lloyd wrote:
> 
> > Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
> 
> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Gerhard Froehlich]

>-Original Message-
>From: lloyd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 1:43 PM
>To: Jakarta General List
>Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
>
>
>
>> Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>
>Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
>could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>

Great mate, flame on :-(((

  Gerhard


Give me ambiguity or give me something else.



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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Berin Loritsch]

lloyd wrote:

>>Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>>
> 
> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.


Not again.

People, even if you don't like Jon, can we just let this one go please?
I don't want to see YAFF (Yet Another Flame Fest) on netiquette.





-- 

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[lloyd]

> Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical

Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.





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RE: Comment for Apache.org

[Stephane Bailliez]

> -Original Message-
> From: Frans Thamura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

[...]
> Is there a team that responsible for managing the projects of apache
> projects.
> 
> Like in Apache XML may be there is a team that manage that.
> 
> I have been working several years in IT, and managing the 
> project. There is
> a methodology to make a project clear..
> 
> I cannot find it in Apache..

[...]

It's hard to figure out what you really want to say...but I believe you are
looking for this:

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html

Stephane.

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Re: Comment for Apache.org

[Jon Stevens]

Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
sense.

-jon

on 12/9/01 3:57 AM, "Frans Thamura" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear All,,
> 
> Do you know where the list for comment the apache.org web site..
> 
> Is there a team that responsible for managing the projects of apache
> projects.
> 
> Like in Apache XML may be there is a team that manage that.
> 
> I have been working several years in IT, and managing the project. There is
> a methodology to make a project clear..
> 
> I cannot find it in Apache..
> 
> Because as a model of open source development for volunteer.. Apache's
> project can lost his leader or creator.. may be he is busy, or interest in
> several project.
> 
> but as an Apache.. you must responsible for managing this..
> 
> sample..
> 
> Cocoon is create by Stefano, what happen if he is very very busy.. who must
> handle this project. And who will responsible for next release.. only
> stefano or everyone.. who interest.. with VOTE of course..
> 
> I love a clear project. and it will easy to understand and follow.. trust
> me.. there will be thousands people involve with this.. if everyone can
> understand and use it easily..
> 
> Honestly, Apache project is very great.. i love it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Frans


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