Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lance Albertson]

On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 03:32 +0200, Lars Weiler wrote:
> * Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [05/06/28 18:14 -0500]:
> > I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
> 
> "New people"?  You're joking, aren't you?  Some of them are
> moderators for even a longer time than you are a Gentoo Dev.

I wasn't directing that comment at the forum mods. I rarely use the
forums anymore because of how busy I am, but I know that all the mods
work hard (and probably harder than some of our 'official' devs). I was
mainly talking about the rate of new people we've been bringing on in
the past year. Most have been great, but I just get concerned when
numbers become more important than quality (Not saying thats the case
here, its just something to watch out for).

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lars Weiler]

* Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [05/06/28 18:14 -0500]:
> I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing

"New people"?  You're joking, aren't you?  Some of them are
moderators for even a longer time than you are a Gentoo Dev.

The problem just is, that the Forums have been forgotten at
the time when our current (or even better now it's the old)
metastructure was built up.  The forum moderators now just
take Gentoo's official way to add the forums and the folks
behind it as a usual TLP or SLP (probably to PR).  And I'm
really ashamed that many Developers think they are just some
beggars for an @gentoo.org- and shell-account.

Did you really ever honoured their work?  Think about the
Forums will go down for a week.  I don't want to count the
questions a lot of developers will receive, which were
usually answered in the forums instead.  Or political
discussions about Gentoo, which are hold in the forums and
where the moderators slurp out the essence and hand it over
to the related devs.

Yes, we need the forums, we need the moderators, and we also
need that the moderators will be involved into Gentoo
completely, so that they know our rare internals and are
allowed to take part on elections about the future of the
project.

Please keep in mind what has been said before: This thread
ain't be a flamefest.  This is the official and transparent
way in how to integrate our forums as an official Gentoo
project.

Regards, Lars

-- 
Lars Weiler  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  +49-171-1963258
Gentoo Linux PowerPC: Developer and Release Engineer
Gentoo Infrastructure   : CVS Administrator
Gentoo Foundation   : Trustee


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[gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Duncan]

Lance Albertson posted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, excerpted
below,  on Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:14:11 -0500:

> Ok, after talking with a few folks I want to retract my comment about no
> shell access. I didn't think about the other groups (docs) that already
> have shell access and retain a simliar status as forum mods do in
> Gentoo. I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
> on and the security behind it. Thats my main concern at this point, not
> whether your work is more or less than a regular developer. I just
> wanted to make that point before I had a flamewar directed at me :)

OK, I'm with you on the security thing (being one that would prefer a
USE=clientonly flag, remember, tho I understand the reasons behind not
doing it), but I DO know there's quite the occasional use for someplace to
host scripts, patchlets, and sample config files for reference from
forums/news/lists/irc, that I've personally found useful, that others
would like to see as well.

One particular example is my xorg.conf file, which I seem to get
requests for from time to time, when I mention that I have xorg running
xinerama on a dual-out Radeon 9200SE.  It seems many have trouble getting
that to work, and an annotated working config can help tremendously.  I've
been considering doing it up right and putting it on my web page.  Sure, I
can put it on my ISP's page, but folks do change ISPs from time to time,
and for forum mods that are already staff, having a "staffspace" available
to make such things a bit more publicly available, could be /quite/ useful.

The form of the URLs such resources get make it quite clear that while
hosted on a gentoo server, they are in personal devspace/staffspace on
that server, so there should be little chance of confusion with "official"
packages, particularly if there's a policy in place (I haven't seen one
but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist) to clearly mark any HTML formatted
anchor tags with non-obfuscated descriptions and URLs.  (The forum
software may or may not make obfuscated URLs impossible, I don't know.)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ATI Radeon Xpress 200 Drivers

[Joshua Baergen]

This might be a problem with the drivers as well.  I have seen this
issue on other systems with various ATI cards and I have yet to come
across the solution for it.

On 6/28/05, Chris Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Luca Barbato wrote:
> > Chris Frederick wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I'd be happy to help test.  Is there any testing methodology that I
> >>should follow?  Or any specific application I should test, or xorg
> >>config settings I should try?
> >
> >
> > Just unmask and emerge the .13.4 driver as usual and use it as a
> > standard ati-driver. If it works as should that means that I repackaged
> > it correctly and requires no other patching...
> >
> > lu
> >
> 
> Everything works.  The only problem is that it appears to be painfully
> slow.  I have 4M generic video cards from the mid 90's that are giving
> faster framerates, and this thing is in an amd64 3K.  I'm going to check
> the bios tonight, the board is using shared memory, and I might have set
> it really low since it wasn't working before.  Other than that it's
> working well.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Chris Frederick
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 


-- 
Joshua Baergen

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Initiation rites: sys-auth

[Anthony Gorecki]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2005 3:03 pm, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> sys-libs/nss-mysql (why we have two?)

Robbat was supposed to remove this; it's passed its cut-off date quite a while 
ago.


-- 
Anthony Gorecki
Ectro-Linux Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Initiation rites: sys-auth

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

On Wednesday 29 June 2005 01:31, Kito wrote:
> Yeah, I would add to the list:
> app-crypt/heimdal
Ok so this makes also those belonging there:

app-crypt/mit-krb5
app-crypt/kth-krb

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Initiation rites: sys-auth

[Kito]

On Jun 28, 2005, at 5:03 PM, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:

Ok as I was waiting for Azarah approval after Robbat's one here we  
are:


[23:49]  az, it was kito :P i'm just waiting for your  
opinion about

sys-auth
[23:50]  i cant see that anybody ever waited for my approval to do
anything, but since it makes you feel all tingly and good inside,  
it sounds

ok, just dont make me beat you by asking me to help move thing

And now we are.

Before starting doing something, I think it's better identifying  
all the

packages we should moved.

app-admin/pam_dotfile
app-crypt/pam_krb5
app-crypt/pam_ssh
net-libs/pam_ldap
net-misc/pam_smb
sys-apps/pam-login
sys-libs/pam
sys-libs/pam_mysql
sys-libs/pam_passwdqc
sys-libs/pam_pwdfile
sys-libs/pam_require
sys-libs/pam_ssh_agent
sys-libs/pam_usb
[and sys-libs/openpam sys-libs/freebsd-pam-modules which are g/fbsd  
specific]

net-libs/nss_ldap
sys-libs/libnss-mysql
sys-libs/libnss-pgsql
sys-libs/nss-db
sys-libs/nss-mysql (why we have two?)
sys-apps/shadow

maybe:
net-libs/courier-authlib

And maybe also kerberos should be moved there as it's authentication?


Yeah, I would add to the list:

app-crypt/heimdal





--
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)




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Re: [gentoo-dev] Keys and words: ways to fail your team

[Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh]

Peter Johanson wrote:

>I know this is intended to be tongue in cheek,
>
Good.

> but I have a dev in the
>dotnet herd who's really pretty upset right now as a result of such
>apparently scathing comments accusing him of being an evil conspirator,
>a wrecker, and traitor, when it wasn't even *him* who introduced the
>keywords in question, he did a by the book bump moving arch -> ~arch for
>all arches listed in keywords.
>  
>
Book in question sort of presumes that ones who change keywords
*personally* tested that package in question works. You set keyword,
you sign the life of your first-born that it will work. Or at least that's
the way it should be.

>I understand that this is a consistent problem, and that we constantly
>have to deal with breakages like this, but please don't send emails
>like this with so many accusations without at least talking to the herd
>lead, or viewing CVS history first.
>  
>
This *is* a consistent problem. But it shouldn't be. QA. Should. Be. Done.

>I like dealing with the mess of pissed off and enflamed developers as
>much as the arch teams like dealing with bad QA, so next time, please
>use at least a *little* subtlty before blowing things up.
>  
>
Grow up people, I didn't even say names. To say more - I'm far more upset
about person who introduced keywords.

>Anyway, I'm glad all the arch teams, who are the one's that never screw
>up and save us all, are fixing things.
>  
>
Yeap. What would you do without us. At least I get yelled at only once for
technical mistakes I make.

>
>  
>
Oh, since we have to indicate jokes/sarcasm now:

LOPATA.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38 round two

[Ricardo Loureiro]

Hi all,

Just a question, will there be a different group for moderators that
belong to staff and moderators which doesn't belong? I'm asking this
because users may relate different groups meaning official gentoo
replies from gentoo staff and not official from other moderators,
giving the idea of valid technical support from the gentoo staff
moderators.

Ricardo Loureiro

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:45:40 +0100
Tom Knight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> After the discussion today about the forums GLEP [1], we've made
> some changes:
> 
> All the current global moderators and admins who aren't already
> developers/staff will take the staff quiz.
> 
> Old moderators (those with Bodhisattva status) will be considered in
> the same way that retired devs are and will have to take the staff
> quiz if they return to moderation duties.
> 
> Moderators of international forums can optionally take the staff
> quiz if they want to.
> 
> Please reload and re-read the updated GLEP.
> 
> Comments/suggestions welcome.
> 
> tomk
> 
>  [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0038.html
> 
> -- 
> Tom Knight
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Public Key: http://dev.gentoo.org/~tomk/tomk.asc

--

http://pgp.dei.uc.pt:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6B7C0EC0


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Marius Mauch]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:34:14 -0500
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 00:20 +0200, Christian Hartmann wrote:
> 
> > To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
> > atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're
> > aware of this fact.)
> 
> Patches to our phpbb should only fall under 2-3 people and means
> moderators != forum admins. And those folks should be closely tied to
> the infra folks. So please tell me again what patches/docs they would
> have as moderators? My vote would be no shell access to moderators, I
> simply don't see the point of adding that into our infra. I do however
> see the need for having an alias for email contact. If they want to do
> more than moderate, thats their will and can take the ebuild quiz for
> that or can discuss that with recruiters.

Well, as long as we use toucan for voting they need shell access (not
now, but when they become foundation members in a year).

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lance Albertson]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:34 -0500, Lance Albertson wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 00:20 +0200, Christian Hartmann wrote:
> 
> > To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
> > atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're aware
> > of this fact.)
> 
> Patches to our phpbb should only fall under 2-3 people and means
> moderators != forum admins. And those folks should be closely tied to
> the infra folks. So please tell me again what patches/docs they would
> have as moderators? My vote would be no shell access to moderators, I
> simply don't see the point of adding that into our infra. I do however
> see the need for having an alias for email contact. If they want to do
> more than moderate, thats their will and can take the ebuild quiz for
> that or can discuss that with recruiters.

Ok, after talking with a few folks I want to retract my comment about no
shell access. I didn't think about the other groups (docs) that already
have shell access and retain a simliar status as forum mods do in
Gentoo. I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
on and the security behind it. Thats my main concern at this point, not
whether your work is more or less than a regular developer. I just
wanted to make that point before I had a flamewar directed at me :)

Cheers,

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Keys and words: ways to fail your team

[Peter Johanson]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 03:41:37PM -0700, Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> Comrades!
> 
> Once more, I come before you with sad tidings. Evil anti-gentoo
> conspirators are plotting to destroy our
> wonderful distribution. Yet again they tried to subvert quality and
> integrity of our distribution by falsely
> claiming that certain packages build and run *gasp* stable *gasp* on
> platforms said saboteurs apparently
> do not even have access to.
> 
> This time many packages in dev-dotnet were marked testing / stable on
> all arches, but thanks to the
> valiant struggles of our tireless arch teams, at least SPARC and MIPS
> have now been rescued from the
> iniquity of the apostate traitors on the x86 monoarchist payroll. Other
> arches have also been warned, and
> hopefully will be in time to save themselves, or at least recover the
> damages in timely manner.
> 
> Comrades!
> 
> For how long will we tolerate these wreckers among us? How much more
> patience shall we show?
> It is about time to stop such behavior once and for all! Let us join
> against the forces of evil and deal
> it a crushing defeat!
> 
> Death to vermin!

I know this is intended to be tongue in cheek, but I have a dev in the
dotnet herd who's really pretty upset right now as a result of such
apparently scathing comments accusing him of being an evil conspirator,
a wrecker, and traitor, when it wasn't even *him* who introduced the
keywords in question, he did a by the book bump moving arch -> ~arch for
all arches listed in keywords.

I understand that this is a consistent problem, and that we constantly
have to deal with breakages like this, but please don't send emails
like this with so many accusations without at least talking to the herd
lead, or viewing CVS history first.

I like dealing with the mess of pissed off and enflamed developers as
much as the arch teams like dealing with bad QA, so next time, please
use at least a *little* subtlty before blowing things up.

Anyway, I'm glad all the arch teams, who are the one's that never screw
up and save us all, are fixing things.



-pete


> 
> -- 
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 

-- 
Peter Johanson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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[gentoo-dev] Keys and words: ways to fail your team

[Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh]

Comrades!

Once more, I come before you with sad tidings. Evil anti-gentoo
conspirators are plotting to destroy our
wonderful distribution. Yet again they tried to subvert quality and
integrity of our distribution by falsely
claiming that certain packages build and run *gasp* stable *gasp* on
platforms said saboteurs apparently
do not even have access to.

This time many packages in dev-dotnet were marked testing / stable on
all arches, but thanks to the
valiant struggles of our tireless arch teams, at least SPARC and MIPS
have now been rescued from the
iniquity of the apostate traitors on the x86 monoarchist payroll. Other
arches have also been warned, and
hopefully will be in time to save themselves, or at least recover the
damages in timely manner.

Comrades!

For how long will we tolerate these wreckers among us? How much more
patience shall we show?
It is about time to stop such behavior once and for all! Let us join
against the forces of evil and deal
it a crushing defeat!

Death to vermin!

-- 
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[gentoo-dev] Package moves as repocopies

[Donnie Berkholz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I've been wondering lately with the discussion of yet more new
categories, why don't we do repocopies to move packages? Note that I'm
talking about packages switching categories and explicitly _not_ about
package name changes.

Although this would require a request to someone with shell access to
the CVS box, it would preserve all the history of the moved packages.
The loss of history is (IMO) the _primary_ problem of moving packages.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lance Albertson]

On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 00:20 +0200, Christian Hartmann wrote:

> To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
> atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're aware
> of this fact.)

Patches to our phpbb should only fall under 2-3 people and means
moderators != forum admins. And those folks should be closely tied to
the infra folks. So please tell me again what patches/docs they would
have as moderators? My vote would be no shell access to moderators, I
simply don't see the point of adding that into our infra. I do however
see the need for having an alias for email contact. If they want to do
more than moderate, thats their will and can take the ebuild quiz for
that or can discuss that with recruiters.

Cheers,

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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ramereth/irc.freenode.net


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Christian Hartmann]

John Mylchreest wrote:
> Infra developers are more often than not package maintainers etc as
> well, and have cvs rights. if they don't have cvs rights, they look
> after core infrastructure which is vital to Gentoo's survival.

Forums built a community.
Quote: '"Best support" went to the Gentoo Forums'

http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20050314-newsletter.xml#doc_chap4

> Not to take away from the importance (or lack of depending on view) of
> moderating the forums, but they are not as critical as official
> literature and infrastructure, and also do not necessarily require in
> depth knowledge of the technical aspects of any post.

So I guess it doesn't matter to you if we would advise to use
-0mg-optimized flags rather then the ones that (core-)developers recommend?

> Regardless, I would prefer the term "Staff."

Sure. As I stated before I'd be fine with that.

> Also, I don't really see the need in having shell access to the
> developer boxes. what use would this be?

To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're aware
of this fact.)

-- 
Kind regards,
Christian Hartmann

Broicher Str. 34
46049 Oberhausen
Germany

Mobile: +49 0173 20 71 871

PGP Key:
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Christian Hartmann]

Jan Kundrát wrote:
> IMHO GDP members develop documentation :-). Just let's call them all
> "developers"...

and the forums monkeys develop solutions for the users.. develop faqs..
develop a community..

But I'm fine with the staff thingy. Please reread the GLEP and have a
look at the changes we made.

-- 
Kind regards,
Christian Hartmann

Broicher Str. 34
46049 Oberhausen
Germany

Mobile: +49 0173 20 71 871

PGP Key:
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Brainless keywording (this time: dev-dotnet)

[Fernando J. Pereda]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:34:11PM -0300, Gustavo Zacarias wrote:
> 
> When will this end?
> DON'T KEYWORD STUFF YOU DON'T TEST ON ARCHES, SPECIALLY STUFF THAT WON'T
> WORK UNTIL PORTING IS DONE.
> I mean, c'mon, it's easy enough... just go to that little Mono page
> (http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page) and check the arch status...
> it's not hard... just a simple link. (FYI SPARC is Solaris/SPARC
> supported, not Linux/SPARC, just another small click to read that).
> Yeah, it may eventually be ported or whatever -> i don't care, it's not
> ported yet.
> Stick to procedures and common sense.
> 

Of course this also applies to the Alpha keyword. Keywording policy is
CLEAR and SIMPLE to read, understand AND follow.

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
  \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
   o o   (  FREE  )
+--ooO--O--Ooo---+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy  |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
| 20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4 |
++


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[John Mylchreest]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:49 -0400, Olivier Crete wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-28-06 at 07:20 -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:57:46PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
> > > 
> > 
> > Yes. You don't develop anything
> 
> Neither do infra devs or doc devs...

I'd beg to differ there actually.
Infra developers are more often than not package maintainers etc as
well, and have cvs rights. if they don't have cvs rights, they look
after core infrastructure which is vital to Gentoo's survival.

Documentation devs, develop rather large and quite excellent online (and
offline) documentation.

Not to take away from the importance (or lack of depending on view) of
moderating the forums, but they are not as critical as official
literature and infrastructure, and also do not necessarily require in
depth knowledge of the technical aspects of any post.

Regardless, I would prefer the term "Staff."

Also, I don't really see the need in having shell access to the
developer boxes. what use would this be?


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[gentoo-dev] Initiation rites: sys-auth

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

Ok as I was waiting for Azarah approval after Robbat's one here we are:

[23:49]  az, it was kito :P i'm just waiting for your opinion about 
sys-auth
[23:50]  i cant see that anybody ever waited for my approval to do 
anything, but since it makes you feel all tingly and good inside, it sounds 
ok, just dont make me beat you by asking me to help move thing

And now we are. 

Before starting doing something, I think it's better identifying all the 
packages we should moved.

app-admin/pam_dotfile
app-crypt/pam_krb5
app-crypt/pam_ssh
net-libs/pam_ldap
net-misc/pam_smb
sys-apps/pam-login
sys-libs/pam
sys-libs/pam_mysql
sys-libs/pam_passwdqc
sys-libs/pam_pwdfile
sys-libs/pam_require
sys-libs/pam_ssh_agent
sys-libs/pam_usb
[and sys-libs/openpam sys-libs/freebsd-pam-modules which are g/fbsd specific]
net-libs/nss_ldap
sys-libs/libnss-mysql
sys-libs/libnss-pgsql
sys-libs/nss-db
sys-libs/nss-mysql (why we have two?)
sys-apps/shadow

maybe:
net-libs/courier-authlib

And maybe also kerberos should be moved there as it's authentication?

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

Olivier Crete wrote:
>>Yes. You don't develop anything
> 
> 
> Neither do infra devs or doc devs...

IMHO GDP members develop documentation :-). Just let's call them all
"developers"...

-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Olivier Crete]

On Tue, 2005-28-06 at 07:20 -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:57:46PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
> > > not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
> > > dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
> > > the big deal about it?
> > 
> > Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> > exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> > 
> > Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
> > 
> 
> Yes. You don't develop anything

Neither do infra devs or doc devs...

-- 
Olivier Crête
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gentoo Developer
x86 Security Liaison


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[gentoo-dev] Brainless keywording (this time: dev-dotnet)

[Gustavo Zacarias]

When will this end?
DON'T KEYWORD STUFF YOU DON'T TEST ON ARCHES, SPECIALLY STUFF THAT WON'T
WORK UNTIL PORTING IS DONE.
I mean, c'mon, it's easy enough... just go to that little Mono page
(http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page) and check the arch status...
it's not hard... just a simple link. (FYI SPARC is Solaris/SPARC
supported, not Linux/SPARC, just another small click to read that).
Yeah, it may eventually be ported or whatever -> i don't care, it's not
ported yet.
Stick to procedures and common sense.

-- 
Gustavo Zacarias
Gentoo/SPARC monkey
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[gentoo-dev] GLEP 38 round two

[Tom Knight]

Hi,

After the discussion today about the forums GLEP [1], we've made some
changes:

All the current global moderators and admins who aren't already
developers/staff will take the staff quiz.

Old moderators (those with Bodhisattva status) will be considered in the
same way that retired devs are and will have to take the staff quiz if they
return to moderation duties.

Moderators of international forums can optionally take the staff quiz if
they want to.

Please reload and re-read the updated GLEP.

Comments/suggestions welcome.

tomk

 [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0038.html

-- 
Tom Knight
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Public Key: http://dev.gentoo.org/~tomk/tomk.asc


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[gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Duncan]

Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò posted
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, excerpted below,
on Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:55:35 +0200:

> And until you don't figure on roll-call after taking a quiz, you can't
> be considered "Official Staff/Developers", so you can't just say "we're
> official", also ATs getting developers must take the quiz, so you see
> that the quiz *is* a fundamental part of it.

FWIW as a prospective AT myself...  The current amd64 AT requirements, at
least, require taking not only the "staff" quiz, but the full ebuild quiz,
so it's NOT just ATs becoming devs, but ALL (at least amd64) ATs, AND
it's the full ebuild quiz the devs must pass. (I can't say about other
archs, but there's only one such non-amd64 AT so far, on ppc64, and I
wouldn't be surprised if he had to take the full ebuild quiz as well.)

>From the amd64 AT documentation:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/tests/index.xml?part=1&chap=1


Prospective AT's will have to pass the ebuild quiz, currently here.


("Here" points to the ebuild quiz
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/ebuild-quiz.txt )

Further to the point made elsewhere, but without the source reference,
further quote from the first link above:


A note about arch testers "status": Gentoo/AMD64 Arch Testers are not
official Gentoo developers. They are, however, a recognized part of the
Gentoo/AMD64 arch team. I ask that all AT's keep this in mind when
selecting email signatures or other forms of communication.


So, yes, ATs take not only the staff quiz, but the full ebuild quiz. 
Further, the expectation is clear that they will be held to "professional"
conduct standards.  For me, that will probably mean giving up my
references to "MSWormOS", at least if and when I choose to identify
myself as an AT.

On the thread subject...

It seems to me there's really not a lot of controversy, only the sides
keep talking past each other and making it more than it is.

Both sides seem to agree that moderators of individual forums shouldn't
have to take the quiz, eliminating the problem of the i11l forums ESL
(English-second-language) mods.

Only the global mods and admins would have to take it, and they all know
English pretty well as a defining characteristic of their job, so the
requirement to take the quiz (and know English well enough to communicate
decently in the Gentoo staff community) shouldn't be an issue.

Further, many of the global mods are already staff/devs, and of those that
aren't, there are only three who haven't said they plan on taking it
anyway, and two of those are inactive.

Thus, the whole debate is over one person, who has expressed a reluctance
to take it but has said (s)he will if necessary.

IMO, that makes it pretty much a non-issue.  If the global mods wish to
make that position official Gentoo staff, and vote among themselves to do
so, there should be no exceptions.  If the one (or either inactive)
global-mod who has concerns chooses not to take the quiz, simply make that
person a individual forum moderator, but just list every forum in the list
of forums they get mod rights in, thus effectively making them a global
mod in all but name, which, if global-mod is to now mean Gentoo staff and
they haven't become Gentoo staff yet, is effectively what they'd be anyway.

OTOH, the global mods, now seeing what it would mean, and that many
already have staff/dev status anyway, could actually decide they don't
want or need Gentoo staff status as part of the global mod description
after all.  They could remain as they are.  It would be perfectly
reasonable for one or more global mods to change their vote out of respect
for the single individual that has expressed reluctance, and to rescind
the GLEP before official vote of the existing Gentoo staff and devs on it.
Things would continue as they are now, and any individual global mod, as
anyone else, could still become a Gentoo dev or Gentoo staff member
independently.

So...  I don't have a vote, but I'd vote yes on a GLEP that made the
forums a Gentoo project and required the global moderators to become
Gentoo staff -- assuming of course they didn't decide they didn't want
that, after all.  No exemptions for individual global mods, but no
exemptions needed, because most are or have expressed an intention to
become staff anyway, with only one person expressing reservations, and if
that person chooses not to, they effectively simply become an individual
forum mod, who happens to have mod rights in /every/ individual forum, so
nothing's lost but the name, IMO a fair sacrifice to the democratic vote
to become staff, considering there's always the choice to take the test
and get back or keep the global mod label as well, if (s)he so chooses.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Haas Wernfried]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 10:34:35AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Honestly, we call everyone with an @gentoo.org address a developer,
> whether they are a "developer" (CVS access) or not.

There have been heavy objections against that when we presented the
first draft of the glep using the term developer, even though we
stated not needing CVS access - so we chose the term staff.
Tbh, i don't care at all if it's called staff or developer, just make
it an official member.

About the status of the forums and being official or not:
Remember the mess with stats.gentoo.org? The people working on it
wanted to use this domain and therefor it was suggested that they
needed to be developers. Please don't get me wrong and this is
definitely no attemt to revive that discussion, but if
stats.gentoo.org is official and needs official members, the forums
should be considered and have official members, too (called staff
or developers or forums-monkeys).

Anyway, the intention of the GLEP is to solve this problem and not to
turn gentoo-dev into a flamefest. ;-)

cheers,
Wernfried

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

First, that thread is old.
Second, the issue was addressed.
Third, personal opinions on anything do not have anything to do with
this. Freedom of speech has always been guaranteed on the forums as
far as there are no personal agressions. What brings me to the point
that your statement falls really apart in here...

On 6/28/05, twofourtysix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 28/06/05, Ricardo Loureiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Also, I truly doubt that any moderator would refuse to be considered
> > a Gentoo staff or anything gentoo related, otherwise why choose to
> > give their free time to the forums?
> 
> Would the likes of [1] be considered acceptable from a Gentoo staff member?
> 
> [1] http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=1053530#1053530
> 
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

 0xB9B11F4E
 0xC2539DA3
 0xF202D067


Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ricardo Loureiro]

Hi again,

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:47:42 +0100
twofourtysix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 28/06/05, Ricardo Loureiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Also, I truly doubt that any moderator would refuse to be
> > considered a Gentoo staff or anything gentoo related, otherwise
> > why choose to give their free time to the forums?
> 
> Would the likes of [1] be considered acceptable from a Gentoo staff
> member?
> 
> [1] http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=1053530#1053530

No, that's exactly why I said a quiz should be used for any moderator,
even if they are not to be considered staff or developers. And that
proves why I said moderators should need to be responsible and mature.
To have Gentoo internal knowledge is irrelevant for the forum
moderator work, but needed for official technical support.

BTW, let's make that an example and not discuss (again) that
particular episode.

Ricardo Loureiro

--

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[twofourtysix]

On 28/06/05, Ricardo Loureiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Also, I truly doubt that any moderator would refuse to be considered
> a Gentoo staff or anything gentoo related, otherwise why choose to
> give their free time to the forums?

Would the likes of [1] be considered acceptable from a Gentoo staff member?

[1] http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=1053530#1053530

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ricardo Loureiro]

Hi all,

All forum moderators and admins try to make the forum clean and after
that they try to help the best they can, as all other users. So the
moderators/admins do not need to know how Gentoo itself works
internally, they just need to be mature and responsible. 

Now I agree that regular users see moderators as higher members, and
that's why Gentoo Foundation should take care choosing
moderators/admins. That's what the quiz should be about. Gentoo
internal knowledge should be optional, although highly appreciated. If
Moderators/admins become staff, they may start to be seen as official
support, and I don't think that's something desirable right now, at
least not to increase the work of moderators/admins. 

As to local moderators (i'm one of them) I believe they should take
whatever global moderators take, they are moderators as well, although
they have a lot less work. Giving all moderators a developer or staff
status is not needed, although admins should be Gentoo developers or
staff because of their higher responsibility.

Also, I truly doubt that any moderator would refuse to be considered
a Gentoo staff or anything gentoo related, otherwise why choose to
give their free time to the forums?

That's just my 2 cents as a local moderator.

Ricardo Loureiro


On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:09:41 +0200
Haas Wernfried <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> With reference to the recent thread about this GLEP's draft [1]
> we're resurrecting the discussion and would like keep you updated
> on the latest changes:
> 1) The term developer has been dropped and replaced by staff. ;-)
> 2) The GLEP is now listed on the GLEP page as GLEP 38 [2] as an
> official GLEP.
> 3) The moderators guide is available (Curtis already posted that to
> the list, just a reminder to have a look at it as well). [3]
> 
> Now would be a great time for everyone to read it and give us some
> feedback. 
> 
> [1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/28985
> [2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0038.html
> [3] http://curtis119.no-ip.org/forum-guide.xml
> 
> 
> -- 
> Fppmpppffpppmpfpffmffmppmpm Mfpmmfmm
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> f.mmmfmp
> mfpfmpfmppfm://fpfppffpmmpppff.ppmfmfmpm.mmmfmp/~mmmppmpppmpmff
> ppfppp/ http://www.namesuppressed.com/kenny/
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> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
> 

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[gentoo-dev] IMPORTANT: Server outages

[Lance Albertson]

Hey all,

Was just going to inform you all of some downtime going to happen
tonight around 0900UTC. The facility at the Open Source Labs is needing
to do some UPS upgrades on all the rackmounted servers they host. This
means the power will need to be off (which will include the switches for
the non-racked boxes). The outage is expected to last around
20-30minutes. 

Here's a list of services that will be affected:

* Several web services:
forums,bugzilla,planet,bugday,packages,archives,devwiki,vendors
* cvs
* master rsync
* torrents
* Gentoo's jabber

I may as well add that half of Freenode will be affected too, so
complaining on IRC won't do much for ya ;). 

There will be another outage for a similar amount of time at 0900UTC on
July 3. I will send out an announcement in a few days as a reminder for
that.

Ok, hopefully I didn't forget any services, enjoy!

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
Public GPG key:  
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ATI Radeon Xpress 200 Drivers

[Chris Frederick]

Luca Barbato wrote:

Chris Frederick wrote:



I'd be happy to help test.  Is there any testing methodology that I
should follow?  Or any specific application I should test, or xorg
config settings I should try?



Just unmask and emerge the .13.4 driver as usual and use it as a
standard ati-driver. If it works as should that means that I repackaged
it correctly and requires no other patching...

lu



Everything works.  The only problem is that it appears to be painfully 
slow.  I have 4M generic video cards from the mid 90's that are giving 
faster framerates, and this thing is in an amd64 3K.  I'm going to check 
the bios tonight, the board is using shared memory, and I might have set 
it really low since it wasn't working before.  Other than that it's 
working well.


Thanks

Chris Frederick

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...

Erm... either your emails came late or you didn't read my last email.
The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Ioannis wrote:

>*
>My most sincere excuses if I trolled or annoyed anyone. It was not
>intentional.
>*


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

 0xB9B11F4E
 0xC2539DA3
 0xF202D067


Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:57 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> 
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

Honestly, we call everyone with an @gentoo.org address a developer,
whether they are a "developer" (CVS access) or not.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:35 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> 
> Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
> who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
> instead.

You really don't give up on these semantics, do you?

All of our infrastructure "developers" whom have not taken the ebuild
quiz are actually "staff".  The *only* distinction between the two is
CVS access.  Please quit trying to make this out to be some form of "us
versus them" argument when there is none.  If *any* of the moderators,
or even forums members, were to take the ebuild quiz and follow the
recruitment process, then they would become "developers" for Gentoo.  It
is as simple as that.

> > > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> > 
> > Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are
> > the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel.
> 
> You are obviously free to state your opinion. But this *maybe* is not
> to be discussed with us.

Discussed with you that you need to follow the same rules as all of the
other Gentoo members?

> If you didn't notice, as Christian already state before, we ARE
> official, we are NOT joining you. We are simply getting our DESERVED
> recognition.

Really?  Where is your account on toucan?  How about your name on the
roll call?

I don't mean to sound rude, but while you have always been a part of
Gentoo, youw ere not official, otherwise we would not be having this
conversation, at all.

> IMHO that argument is more than enough.

However, it is not to some of us.  Perhaps rather than taking such a
stubborn, argumentative stance, you would give positive examples or
arguments with some merit?

At this point, you wouldn't have my vote.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:19 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> 
> One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.

Like our infrastructure staff?

Hey, didn't you just read that lcars, who has been around *forever* just
took the developer quiz so he could get access to the portage tree to
maintain sendmail.  Well, I mean, he's been around for so long,
shouldn't he have just been allowed to completely side-step the
recruitment process that is in place?

> > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > they won't become gentoo staff.
> 
> Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?

I don't think anyone has disagreed that you should be in complete
control over whom you recruit as forum-specific moderators.  It is only
when they wish to "move up" to a global moderator or administrator
position that they should be required to complete the official
recruitment process.

> > > And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> > > quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> > > mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
> > 
> > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).
> 
> Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
> is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
> stright away.

Again I have to ask.  Are you even reading what people are commenting or
are you just spouting this same thing over and over.

You never were staff.  You never asked to be.  The developers that were
here before the quiz was established were already developers.  You had
no "official" status.  You cannot make a comparison without completely
throwing logic out the window.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:04 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?
> 
> I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
> interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
> *do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

Like we do for ALL developers, documentation writers and translators,
and all of our infrastructure staff *except* for the Global Moderators
and Forums Administrators?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 11:53 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.

You were never staff before.

I contributed ebuilds to Gentoo before I became a developer.  That
doesn't mean I was automatically a developer before taking the quiz.

It doesn't matter if you contributed directly to Daniel the day he
started the stinking distribution.  If you were never a "memeber", then
how can you possibly ask to be grandfathered in as one?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 08:44 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> About the language: all global mods do speak (write) English fluently.
> That is too obvious. Global Mods and Admins can take the quiz in
> English with no problem. The problem comes with our fellow
> International Forum Mods, who do not have to meet that requirement as
> they won't be doing their job in English. This means that their
> English level can be low enough, just to keep up the communication
> with the rest of the team. We also have to think that many people in
> the Gentoo Forums do not have a good English level and precisely
> *that* is the reason International Forums exist. If everyone had a
> good English level, International Forums and International Forum
> Moderators wouldn't be required, but that's not the case.

Are you even listening to me?

I have said *NUMEROUS TIMES NOW* that I agree that only *GLOBAL*
moderators should be required to take the test.

Now, allow me to point out the dead horse that you are beating.  He
doesn't like it anymore.

Thank you,

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Anders Hellgren]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:


On Tuesday 28 June 2005 13:29, Anders Hellgren wrote:


Now, some people seem to have a
problem with someone being global moderator or admin without being
official staff.

No that's not the issue. The issue is that if you want that global moderators
have the right to vote (that was the main request done iirc), then they must
be official staff, and to be that, they need to take the quiz.
Having some global mods staff (just because they are mods, not because they
are staff for other means) and some not, will confuse the userbase.
As we said, most of the global mods are already staff so already have the
right to vote, so if you don't want to change this, there's nothing to
discuss about: if an individual wants the right to vote, it just needs to be
staff for other reasons.

If you want that "Global Moderator == Offical Staff", you need that all of
them take the quiz and become official staff.


Please see the rest of my previous post. We have not proposed to make 
global moderators official staff without taking the quiz. What we have 
said is that future global mods should become official staff and hence 
take the quiz, but we want the current mods to be able to choose not to 
become official staff but still be able to remain moderator. Should anyone 
decide that's want they want, they will not become official staff and 
hence not get any voting rights.



FWIW, there are non-staff bug wranglers, aren't there? To me, that's
essentially the same thing as non-staff moderators.

For local moderator, yes. As for ATs.
But it's clear to user that bug-wranglers or ATs aren't Official Staff:
"  A note about arch testers "status": Gentoo/AMD64 Arch Testers are not
official Gentoo developers. They are, however, a recognized part of the
Gentoo/AMD64 arch team. I ask that all AT's keep this in mind when selecting
email signatures or other forms of communication. " [1]

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/tests/index.xml?part=1&chap=1


I'd say that any user seeing his bug being RESOLVED DUPLICATE sees that 
action as an official one even if it was a non-staffer who marked it such.


Cheers,

Anders (kallamej)
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Allen Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Please try to refrain from posting any more stupid flames to what is
> > supposed to be a productive development list. This is not USENET.
> If this is a development list, why exactly are we having discussion
> about the forums in the first place?

To take feedback from developers. Keep in mind that in the end we'll
have to agree on the final result.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

 0xB9B11F4E
 0xC2539DA3
 0xF202D067


Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[christian . hartmann]

> If this is a development list, why exactly are we having discussion
> about the forums in the first place?

"The author of the GLEP is then responsible for posting the GLEP to the 
gentoo-dev mailing list and to the Gentoo Linux forums [7], and marshaling 
community support for it."

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0001.html#glep-work-flow

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Allen Parker]

On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 03:21:12AM -0800, Allen Parker wrote:
> I think before posting you should perhaps take a step back and think:
> "Am I making myself look like a bigger asshat than the other guy?"
I knew I was making myself look like an asshat ;-) that was the
_point_ of the post.
 
> Please try to refrain from posting any more stupid flames to what is
> supposed to be a productive development list. This is not USENET.
If this is a development list, why exactly are we having discussion
about the forums in the first place?

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

On Tuesday 28 June 2005 13:29, Anders Hellgren wrote:
> > Most of them already took it
> ...or are pre quiz staff.
Ok I was intending both of the cases but that's more clear.

> Again, noone's ever intended that anyone should become official Gentoo
> staff without taking the staff quiz.

> Now, some people seem to have a 
> problem with someone being global moderator or admin without being
> official staff.
No that's not the issue. The issue is that if you want that global moderators 
have the right to vote (that was the main request done iirc), then they must 
be official staff, and to be that, they need to take the quiz.
Having some global mods staff (just because they are mods, not because they 
are staff for other means) and some not, will confuse the userbase.
As we said, most of the global mods are already staff so already have the 
right to vote, so if you don't want to change this, there's nothing to 
discuss about: if an individual wants the right to vote, it just needs to be 
staff for other reasons.

If you want that "Global Moderator == Offical Staff", you need that all of 
them take the quiz and become official staff.

> I don't, and I have no intention on booting anyone, should 
> there be anyone, who don't want to go through the process to become
> official Gentoo staff.
As I said above, if you want project global mods to be considered staff for 
the own sake of being global mods, it's an all or nothing for me.

> FWIW, there are non-staff bug wranglers, aren't there? To me, that's
> essentially the same thing as non-staff moderators.
For local moderator, yes. As for ATs.
But it's clear to user that bug-wranglers or ATs aren't Official Staff:
"  A note about arch testers "status": Gentoo/AMD64 Arch Testers are not 
official Gentoo developers. They are, however, a recognized part of the 
Gentoo/AMD64 arch team. I ask that all AT's keep this in mind when selecting 
email signatures or other forms of communication. " [1]

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/tests/index.xml?part=1&chap=1
-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


I was poked about this. OK, looks like many developers didn't like
what I've post in here plus I was somewhat recriminated.

*
My most sincere excuses if I trolled or annoyed anyone. It was not
intentional.
*

About "From: Allen Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" reply... I'll make
no comments on that. This is no way of speaking to anyone.


- -- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

 0xB9B11F4E
 0xC2539DA3
 0xF202D067


Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager
(http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili



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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 03:21:12AM -0800, Allen Parker wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Ioannis Aslanidis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Sorry for that, just tried to keep the discussion alive. I assume all
> 
> 
> It's alive enough without your constant/irrelevant bitching. You're a
> forum moderator which = staff, not developer. If you think that you're
> making an argument that actually makes any sense whatsoever, I invite
> you to click "expand all" in this thread and read some of your
> valuable "contributions." IMHO having anyone besides the "gentoo is
> for ricers" crowd able to view some of the things said in the forums
> at all is a PR nightmare. I'd rather NOT have my clients know that
> every 13 year old pimply faced boy on earth that is learning linux is
> using my distribution. If you prefer the forums, more power to you, I
> think it'd be a more efficient use of bandwidth and space to replace
> your beloved forums with a wiki (and it'd probably be easier for
> people to navigate as well.)

What was that about irrelevant bitching again?

> 
> The issue isn't that some people do or do not like forums in general,
> the gentoo forums, or having forum moderators/admins. My current issue
> is that you, by playing devil's advocate, Ioannis, are doing nothing
> other than trolling. In the past, behaviors such as yours... have been
> described by Daniel Robbins as being a "freak" (see his articles on
> making your own distro on ibm.com).

I think before posting you should perhaps take a step back and think: 
"Am I making myself look like a bigger asshat than the other guy?"

Please try to refrain from posting any more stupid flames to what is 
supposed to be a productive development list. This is not USENET.

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Anders Hellgren]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:


On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:37, Anders Hellgren wrote:

Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators group.
To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.

If those are all, then the problem doesn't seems to exists.


Exactly.


Most of them already took it


...or are pre quiz staff.


Again, noone's ever intended that anyone should become official Gentoo 
staff without taking the staff quiz. Now, some people seem to have a 
problem with someone being global moderator or admin without being 
official staff. I don't, and I have no intention on booting anyone, should 
there be anyone, who don't want to go through the process to become 
official Gentoo staff.


FWIW, there are non-staff bug wranglers, aren't there? To me, that's 
essentially the same thing as non-staff moderators.


Going back to the beginning, the status of the Forums is somewhat 
undefined as is is not listed on [1], but there are still people on [2] 
who have the Forums as responsibility. Our purpose with the glep was 
twofold. One is to put the Forums somewhere on [1]. In fact, it always 
should have been there. The second, that being *Forum* staff should be 
enough reason to become official Gentoo staff. The latter requiring taking 
the staff quiz. Nevertheless, we do not want to force anyone to become 
official Gentoo staff.



[1]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/index.xml
[2]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/roll-call/userinfo.xml

Cheers,

Anders (kallamej)
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

On Tuesday 28 June 2005 13:19, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> Why does it matter? Should this policy also apply to 'unofficial' bug
> wranglers who did not take the staff quiz, or is Bugzilla not an
> official part of Gentoo?
They have limited privileges, they shouldn't touch out of their competence, so 
they are like ATs and local moderators.
But to have the competence to change all the bugs, you need to be official, 
don't you?

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Allen Parker]

On 6/28/05, Ioannis Aslanidis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Sorry for that, just tried to keep the discussion alive. I assume all


It's alive enough without your constant/irrelevant bitching. You're a
forum moderator which = staff, not developer. If you think that you're
making an argument that actually makes any sense whatsoever, I invite
you to click "expand all" in this thread and read some of your
valuable "contributions." IMHO having anyone besides the "gentoo is
for ricers" crowd able to view some of the things said in the forums
at all is a PR nightmare. I'd rather NOT have my clients know that
every 13 year old pimply faced boy on earth that is learning linux is
using my distribution. If you prefer the forums, more power to you, I
think it'd be a more efficient use of bandwidth and space to replace
your beloved forums with a wiki (and it'd probably be easier for
people to navigate as well.)

The issue isn't that some people do or do not like forums in general,
the gentoo forums, or having forum moderators/admins. My current issue
is that you, by playing devil's advocate, Ioannis, are doing nothing
other than trolling. In the past, behaviors such as yours... have been
described by Daniel Robbins as being a "freak" (see his articles on
making your own distro on ibm.com).

News flash: your repeated arguments and questionable signature* make
me wonder exactly how important you really think you are.

* see my comments below:
> --
> Ioannis Aslanidis
> 
>  0xB9B11F4E
>  0xC2539DA3
>  0xF202D067
> 
that's nice that you have multiple gpg keys and email addresses... do
we really need a list of all of them? no? didn't think so.

> Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
very noble project -- no comments there

> FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
hrm... windows? yup, that's relevant to gentoo...

> Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
holy crap... you spelled it right in the project name, but not in your
signature? nice blank page, anyway...

> Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)
Holy shit! You're a global forum mod? that means you have to take the
quiz, right? hrm... so why don't you take the time you've spent
emailing the list... and take the damned quiz and stop whining
already? unless you already did, which... if you HAVE... then you
should just shut up and let OTHER people that really DO have a problem
(that are forum mods/admins) speak up... because you're the only
jackass making noise on this issue.

Thanks everyone for putting up with my rant... Ioannis, don't reply to
me personally or on-list, i don't care what you have to say, you've
done a very good job of showing me exactly *WHY* I avoid the forums at
all costs.

(and if anyone comments that I sound like mike frysinger in this
post... they can stuff it.)

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:01:57PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
> > take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
> > like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff
> 
> Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

Find a mentor to sponsor you for the process and sure

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:57:46PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
> > not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
> > dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
> > the big deal about it?
> 
> Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> 
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
> 

Yes. You don't develop anything

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:00:21PM +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:48, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> > AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to
> > the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff
> > all of a sudden
> This is fair and right enough. But to do that, I'm still thinking (like 
> others) that it's an all-or-nothing: or they take the quiz or they don't be 
> official; no official, no global moderation (if the most of the global 
> moderators want to be official staff and the project to be an official 
> recognized one).
> 

Why does it matter? Should this policy also apply to 'unofficial' bug 
wranglers who did not take the staff quiz, or is Bugzilla not an 
official part of Gentoo?

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/28/2005 04:31 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
>>take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
>>like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff
> 
> Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

What's stopping you from doing so? If you've done enough work with
ebuilds and want to help out, surely you'll be able to take the quiz and
work with ebuilds.

- --
Shyam Mani | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG key| 0xFDD0E345
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:01:57PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
> > take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
> > like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff
> 
> Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

Why would you want to ? Everybody can take the ebuild quiz, if they have
something to do in the tree of course.

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
  \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
   o o   (  FREE  )
+--ooO--O--Ooo---+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy  |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
| 20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4 |
++


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Simon Stelling]

Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> 
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

No, why should anybody bother?

-- 
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Marius Mauch]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:37:46 +0200 (MEST)
Anders Hellgren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Currently I'd be interested if there are any solid numbers how many
> > global moderators/admins want/don't want to get staff status?
> 
> Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators
> group. To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.
> 
> Nitro: Not necessary, [1]
> amne: Will take
> BonezTheGoon: Don't know, inactive
> curtis119: Has recently taken it 
> Deathwing00: /me is getting confused by his replies in this thread,
> the main authors of the glep never intended anyone to become Gentoo
> staff without taking the staff quiz.
> Earthwings: Will take
> ian!: Will take
> kallamej: Will take
> klieber: Not necessary, [1]
> Maedhros: Will take
> masseya: Don't know, but he thinks the glep is a really good idea.
> phong: Don't know, inactive
> pilla: Reluctant, but hasn't said he would refuse.
> pjp: Not necessary, [1] 
> plate: Not necessary, [1]
> puggy: Not necessary, [1]
> rac: Not necessary, [1]
> tomk: Not necessary, [1]

So that would be 6 "will take", 2 inactive (should be handled like
retired devs IMO), 8 "not necessary" and 2 more or less unknown. No
"definite against". So after all the whole discussion might be a non-
issue ;)

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Simon Stelling]

Anders Hellgren wrote:
> BonezTheGoon: Don't know, inactive
> phong: Don't know, inactive
> pilla: Reluctant, but hasn't said he would refuse.
[snip the ones who will take it or where it's not necessary]

We're talking about 3 people in the worst case. I don't know how long
they have been inactive, so I assume we have 3 people who don't want to
take the quiz. GLEP 38 says:

"As moderators are pretty much exposed to the public (forums users, but
also used as contact person for requests that should go to the PR
department or the trustees) they need to have some knowledge about
Gentoo's internal structure as well as contact to the other developers."

I absolutely agree with this, and that's exactly what the staff quiz is
for. The quiz has 8 questions, they're all quite easy. For those
moderators who have been moderating for years, it shouldn't take longer
than 15 minutes.

One argument I heard was, that it's not the quiz which is too hard, but
people think it's not okay to force moderators to take it to continue
their work. I partly agree with this too, I know, the quiz is also (but
still not only!) bureaucracy, but looking at this thread it seems to be
much less bureaucracy compared to this discussion. To solve this
problem, it will take 3 people to spend 15 minutes on a quiz they don't
like. Or it will take many more hours to discuss it over and over again.

Sorry, but this looks a bit ridiculous to me.

Regards,

-- 
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:48:51AM -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:28:20PM +0200, Fernando J. Pereda wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> > > 
> > > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but 
> > > staff.
> > 
> > Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> > 
> > > > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > > > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > > > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > > > they won't become gentoo staff.
> > > 
> > > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> > 
> > Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are 
> > the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel. I still don't
> > see why you should deserve a different treatment.
> > 
> 
> 
> AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to 
> the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff 
> all of a sudden

OK, I take that back, plans were dropped for a forums-specific recruiter 
and instead it'd all go through the existing recruiters

Either way, my point stands 8)

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/28/2005 04:27 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:

> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

*I* don't have an issue with that. I care more about what I'm able to do
for the community rather than bother with what I'm going to be called.
Seriously.


- --
Shyam Mani | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG key| 0xFDD0E345
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
> take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
> like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff

Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

> Overall I'd say I think the best course of action is for the forum
> admins & whatever high-level executive decision making moderators to
> become staff and for the forums to become a valid (sub)project, then
> they can add their other folks as needed. I don't see any need for the
> 'all or nothing' approach. Frankly I don't see any harm in people not
> being totally clear on which mods are "staff" and which aren't (what
> practical difference does it make?)

Agreed.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:57, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
No, not for me.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:48, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to
> the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff
> all of a sudden
This is fair and right enough. But to do that, I'm still thinking (like 
others) that it's an all-or-nothing: or they take the quiz or they don't be 
official; no official, no global moderation (if the most of the global 
moderators want to be official staff and the project to be an official 
recognized one).

For local mods, like for AT, they can do it on their own, imho.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
> not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
> dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
> the big deal about it?

Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:

Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to
> the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff
> all of a sudden

And we already have a candidate I presume :)

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:37, Anders Hellgren wrote:
> Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators group.
> To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.
If those are all, then the problem doesn't seems to exists.
Most of them already took it, the others will take it, the inactive ones can 
be "suspended" until they came back and then decide.

For the minority of uncertain.. they always can decide "quiz or leave".
It's just a quiz *you* are asking for as already Chris and Fernando said, as 
to be official Gentoo staff/developers (this was just a bit of confusion as 
the gentoo docs consider everyones "developers" so the problem is not staff 
or developers being different, but just the need for a cleanup of terms.

And until you don't figure on roll-call after taking a quiz, you can't be 
considered "Official Staff/Developers", so you can't just say "we're 
official", also ATs getting developers must take the quiz, so you see that 
the quiz *is* a fundamental part of it.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:35:11PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> > >
> > > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but 
> > > staff.
> > 
> > Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> 
> Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
> who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
> instead.

Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer, 
take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't 
like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff

Overall I'd say I think the best course of action is for the forum 
admins & whatever high-level executive decision making moderators to 
become staff and for the forums to become a valid (sub)project, then 
they can add their other folks as needed. I don't see any need for the 
'all or nothing' approach. Frankly I don't see any harm in people not 
being totally clear on which mods are "staff" and which aren't (what 
practical difference does it make?)

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/28/2005 04:05 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:

> Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
> who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
> instead.

The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
the big deal about it?

- --
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:28:20PM +0200, Fernando J. Pereda wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> > 
> > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but 
> > staff.
> 
> Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> 
> > > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > > they won't become gentoo staff.
> > 
> > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> 
> Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are 
> the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel. I still don't
> see why you should deserve a different treatment.
> 


AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to 
the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff 
all of a sudden


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

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Hash: SHA1

On 06/28/2005 03:34 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:

> I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
> interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
> *do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

You don't have an option if you want to become a Gentoo Staff/Developer
(how ever you want to see it). If someone wants to be a Global
Moderator, they do the quiz. If they don't do the quiz, they don't
become one/remain one. That's the way it should be. Simple.

- --
Shyam Mani | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Anders Hellgren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Deathwing00: /me is getting confused by his replies in this thread, the
> main authors of the glep never intended anyone to become Gentoo staff
> without taking the staff quiz.

Sorry for that, just tried to keep the discussion alive. I assume all
consequences. As I said before:

Deathiwng00: Will take

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

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Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Anders Hellgren]

Currently I'd be interested if there are any solid numbers how many
global moderators/admins want/don't want to get staff status?


Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators group. 
To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.


Nitro: Not necessary, [1]
amne: Will take
BonezTheGoon: Don't know, inactive
curtis119: Has recently taken it 
Deathwing00: /me is getting confused by his replies in this thread, the 
main authors of the glep never intended anyone to become Gentoo staff 
without taking the staff quiz.

Earthwings: Will take
ian!: Will take
kallamej: Will take
klieber: Not necessary, [1]
Maedhros: Will take
masseya: Don't know, but he thinks the glep is a really good idea.
phong: Don't know, inactive
pilla: Reluctant, but hasn't said he would refuse.
pjp: Not necessary, [1] 
plate: Not necessary, [1]

puggy: Not necessary, [1]
rac: Not necessary, [1]
tomk: Not necessary, [1]

[1]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/roll-call/userinfo.xml

Cheers,

Anders (kallamej)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> >
> > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but 
> > staff.
> 
> Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?

Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
instead.

> 
> > > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > > they won't become gentoo staff.
> >
> > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> 
> Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are
> the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel.

You are obviously free to state your opinion. But this *maybe* is not
to be discussed with us.

> I still don't
> see why you should deserve a different treatment.

I don't either: 

*> > > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
*> > > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).


> If you want to join us, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow our rules. They are
> there to be followed if you didn't notice.

If you didn't notice, as Christian already state before, we ARE
official, we are NOT joining you. We are simply getting our DESERVED
recognition.

> 
> > > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> > > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).
> >
> > Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
> > is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
> > stright away.
> 
> I hope you have stronger arguments...

IMHO that argument is more than enough.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> 
> One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.

Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?

> > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > they won't become gentoo staff.
> 
> Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?

Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are 
the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel. I still don't
see why you should deserve a different treatment.

If you want to join us, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow our rules. They are
there to be followed if you didn't notice.

> > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).
> 
> Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
> is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
> stright away.

I hope you have stronger arguments...

Cheers,
Ferdy 

-- 
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+--ooO--O--Ooo---+
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 11:53:17AM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
> > > are no exception to the rule.
> >
> > Incorrect. As devrel already stated, this won't change ever. We will
> > be always the ones to do this.
> 
> I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.

One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.

> Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> they won't become gentoo staff.

Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?

> > And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> > quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> > mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
> 
> Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).

Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
stright away.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

 0xB9B11F4E
 0xC2539DA3
 0xF202D067


Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jan Kundrát <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>>And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
>>>quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
>>>mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
>>
>>Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?
> 
> 
> I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
> interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
> *do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

Nobody is forcing you, the Global Moderators themselves want to join
Gentoo staff and *they* submitted this GLEP. If you want to join some
group of people, you usually have to accept their rules (or try to
change them, of course :-) ).

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth



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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 11:53:17AM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
> > are no exception to the rule.
> 
> Incorrect. As devrel already stated, this won't change ever. We will
> be always the ones to do this.

I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.

Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
they won't become gentoo staff.

> And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.

Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
  \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
   o o   (  FREE  )
+--ooO--O--Ooo---+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy  |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
| 20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4 |
++


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Jan Kundrát <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> > quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> > mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
> 
> Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?

I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
*do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

 0xB9B11F4E
 0xC2539DA3
 0xF202D067


Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.

Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


signature.asc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > In that regard, you do not get to take care of your own things anymore.
> >
> > We will still recruit new mods/admins and take care of them. We will still 
> > moderate and administering the board and the software. We will still vote 
> > on new policies and guidelines. I fail to see what you mean by saying that.
> 
> Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
> are no exception to the rule.

Incorrect. As devrel already stated, this won't change ever. We will
be always the ones to do this.
 
> > > Every developer and staff has taken the quiz [...]
> >
> > Sorry, but thats not correct (at least to my knowledge). - Back in the good 
> > ol' days most of the developers knew each other and knew who was doing 
> > what. Taking a quiz became mandatory back in 2003 iirc. Devs who were 
> > already aboard did not need to take the quiz.
> 
> Those people were already gentoo staff, you aren't right now, so it's
> not the same situation.

And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

 0xB9B11F4E
 0xC2539DA3
 0xF202D067


Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Marius Mauch]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:09:41 +0200
Haas Wernfried <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> With reference to the recent thread about this GLEP's draft [1]
> we're resurrecting the discussion and would like keep you updated
> on the latest changes:
> 1) The term developer has been dropped and replaced by staff. ;-)
> 2) The GLEP is now listed on the GLEP page as GLEP 38 [2] as an
> official GLEP.
> 3) The moderators guide is available (Curtis already posted that to
> the list, just a reminder to have a look at it as well). [3]
> 
> Now would be a great time for everyone to read it and give us some
> feedback. 

ok, looks like the current hot topic is that not all global moderators/
site admins want/can become staff members for unspecified reasons.

(the GLEP says that everyone wanting to become a staff member has to
take the quiz, so I take that as a given)

Currently I'd be interested if there are any solid numbers how many
global moderators/admins want/don't want to get staff status? 

Marius

PS: I'm ignoring the national forum moderator issue on purpose for now.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 10:39:52AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > You want to become official.
> 
> We are official. It's not just the way things should be.

Well... you want to become staff.

> > In that regard, you do not get to take care of your own things anymore.
> 
> We will still recruit new mods/admins and take care of them. We will still 
> moderate and administering the board and the software. We will still vote on 
> new policies and guidelines. I fail to see what you mean by saying that.

Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
are no exception to the rule.

> > Every developer and staff has taken the quiz [...]
> 
> Sorry, but thats not correct (at least to my knowledge). - Back in the good 
> ol' days most of the developers knew each other and knew who was doing what. 
> Taking a quiz became mandatory back in 2003 iirc. Devs who were already 
> aboard did not need to take the quiz.

Those people were already gentoo staff, you aren't right now, so it's
not the same situation.

> > Again, I fail to see why the forum staff deserves an exception to the
> > rules that every other person that is either staff for Gentoo or a
> > developer for Gentoo has to follow.
> 
> Well.. that's right. Rules should be followed.* If it would be up to me 
> everybody of us would take that quiz and we could stop this discussion. But 
> it's not up to me. - It's not that simple.

People managing the forums should take the responsability to make them
take the quiz and become official. Nobody said that being 'the boss' was
going to be easy.

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
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   o o   (  FREE  )
+--ooO--O--Ooo---+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

Haas Wernfried wrote:
>>>There is no way to force it on them and firing them is not an option.
>>
>>Why not?
> 
> You're not serious, are you?
> These people have dedicated a lot of work to the forums and
> Gentoo. They are doing a great job. Why fire them?

Noone wants to fire them. They want to join the staff, so they have to
accept staffing requirements.

Is it *really* such a PITA to read that quiz and write proper answers?
Isn't that kewl email alias @gentoo.org sufficient reward for an hour of
reading docs and writing answers?

You (the Global Moderators) want to join the staff, okay, so let's write
several answers and everyone will be happy. If you won't moderate the
forum for one hour and write the answers instead, you'll get it.

IMHO "you" are just making a mountain out of a molehill.

Cheers,
-jkt

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[christian . hartmann]

> You want to become official.

We are official. It's not just the way things should be.

> In that regard, you do not get to take care of your own things anymore.

We will still recruit new mods/admins and take care of them. We will still 
moderate and administering the board and the software. We will still vote on 
new policies and guidelines. I fail to see what you mean by saying that.

> If that was the case, there would be no control over the direction developers 
> take [...]

At this point there is no direct control over the direction Gentoo goes. But 
thats something completly different.

> If we say half of the global moderators are staff, and the other half
> are not, how are users supposed to know the difference?

That would be problem. - That's why all global mods/admins should become staff 
members. (As described in the GLEP.)

> Once you become official, the statements made by the forum 
> moderators/administrators are
> pretty much official statements of Gentoo (to the user anyway).

That's the way it is already.

> Every developer and staff has taken the quiz [...]

Sorry, but thats not correct (at least to my knowledge). - Back in the good ol' 
days most of the developers knew each other and knew who was doing what. Taking 
a quiz became mandatory back in 2003 iirc. Devs who were already aboard did not 
need to take the quiz.

> [...] I fail to see what makes forum mods so special they deserve an 
> exception;

We don't want to be treated special. Most of us (global mods/admins) are doing 
this job since years. Most of us joined before the quizes and the recruitment 
process were established.

> Again, I fail to see why the forum staff deserves an exception to the
> rules that every other person that is either staff for Gentoo or a
> developer for Gentoo has to follow.

Well.. that's right. Rules should be followed.* If it would be up to me 
everybody of us would take that quiz and we could stop this discussion. But 
it's not up to me. - It's not that simple.
Long time contributers don't see why somebody wants them to take a quiz just to 
be allowed to continue the work they did for years. Nobody knows the forums and 
the community that well as these people do.
Of course we could make taking the quiz mandatory for all moderators. But this 
would probably mean to lose some great contributors.
Again: Old devs did not need to take the quiz. New ones (usually) need to take 
the quiz.
The same rules should be applied to the forums-staff. New members do need to 
take the quiz as described in the GLEP and recruitment process.

[*] BTW: Check some new devs and their devbugs (if any) and you'll see that 
these rules do not apply to everyone. I'm not saying that this behaviour is 
correct; just wanted to mention that.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Michael Tindal]

On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 08:44 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I think the current suggestion in the GLEP is the best we can
> > > achieve. Old moderators may take the quiz, new moderators must. Given
> > > enough time all old moderators may retire sooner or later and one day
> > > all active moderators will be official.
> > 
> > I just don't see it the same way as you.  I agree with having all new
> > *global* moderators taking the quiz.  However, I completely disagree
> > with you that we should have *some* global moderators that have become
> > official Gentoo representatives, while others have not.  It simply
> > causes too much confusion and makes things a serious pain to manage.
> > Either the forums become a much more controlled (as in global mods have
> > to be staff) environment, or they stay the same.  I just don't see how
> > any middle ground would be feasible without an enormous amount of
> > managerial overhead that seems like a complete waste of time to me.
> > 
> 
> What I do not understand here is where is the confussion. We accept
> the fact that if any mod/admin wants to become staff, he's got to take
> the quiz. In our first version of the GLEP, there was a backwards
> compatibility section that explained that existing mods/admins
> wouldn't have to take the quiz. That was our internal global consensus
> and obviously the rest of existing developers do not agree with it.
> It's just that you do not let us take care of our own things.

You want to become official.  In that regard, you do not get to take
care of your own things anymore.  If that was the case, there would be
no control over the direction developers take, and there would be no use
for any kind of managers, or developer relations, or anything like that.

> Even thought that, we did agree about the quiz thing. Unfortunately,
> some people of our team, with who we agreed on an initial instance are
> not frustrated by this. So the best solution I see so everyone gets
> his share and have an intermediate position, nor our initial consensus
> nor the strict proposal of developers. That is to say, let every
> single mod decide if he/she wants to become Gentoo Staff or not.

If we say half of the global moderators are staff, and the other half
are not, how are users supposed to know the difference?  Once you become
official, the statements made by the forum moderators/administrators are
pretty much official statements of Gentoo (to the user anyway).  In that
regard, its not proper to have a half-way period.  Every developer and
staff has taken the quiz, I fail to see what makes forum mods so special
they deserve an exception;

> As I said above, I do not understand why it is so confusing.
> Mods/admins that do not become staff, would retire sooner or later as
> stated by Haas Wernfried, so in the end all mods/admins will be
> official Gentoo Staff. We could have a transitory time in here for
> them.

Again, I fail to see why the forum staff deserves an exception to the
rules that every other person that is either staff for Gentoo or a
developer for Gentoo has to follow.

> About the language: all global mods do speak (write) English fluently.
> That is too obvious. Global Mods and Admins can take the quiz in
> English with no problem. The problem comes with our fellow
> International Forum Mods, who do not have to meet that requirement as
> they won't be doing their job in English. This means that their
> English level can be low enough, just to keep up the communication
> with the rest of the team. We also have to think that many people in
> the Gentoo Forums do not have a good English level and precisely
> *that* is the reason International Forums exist. If everyone had a
> good English level, International Forums and International Forum
> Moderators wouldn't be required, but that's not the case.

I don't believe anyone here has stated the forum-specific moderators
would have to take the quiz, since forum-specific moderators won't be
considered staff.  If however, they wanted to become global moderators,
then they would be required to take the quiz.

Mike Tindal

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