Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/27/07, Ted Roche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Rather scary how a mere discussion of the legalities elicts such a furor, another chilling effect illustrated... when you can't discuss the issues (and use illustrations such as links of the sort of things that are under fire), what's left but to cave in and give up? Point of clarification here: you pointed to a resource that had an rss feed of BitTorrents of other people's copywritten material. I had no objection to the discussion. I objected to the link. "Me too." Again, the courts recognize the concept of "intent". If you post a link to an RSS feed that collects links to BitTorrent servers that track the distribution of copyvio material, the *intent* is still to enable the distribution of copyvio material. Saying "I didn't do it; I only told them where to look" may not be sufficient legal defense. It certainly sounds like grounds for a trial, and that's something I'd like to avoid. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
Seth Cohn wrote: > Rather scary how a mere discussion of the legalities elicts such a > furor, another chilling effect illustrated... when you can't discuss > the issues (and use illustrations such as links of the sort of things > that are under fire), what's left but to cave in and give up? Point of clarification here: you pointed to a resource that had an rss feed of BitTorrents of other people's copywritten material. I had no objection to the discussion. I objected to the link. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
Seth Cohn wrote: > Rather scary how a mere discussion of the legalities elicts such a > furor, another chilling effect illustrated... when you can't discuss > the issues (and use illustrations such as links of the sort of things > that are under fire), what's left but to cave in and give up? Point of clarification here: you pointed to a resource that had an rss feed of BitTorrents of other people's copywritten material. I had no objection to the discussion. I objected to the link. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Why not just do a one-time batch tivodecode of the .tivo files to .mpeg files? That's what I did. Anyone recommend a good mpeg editor once you have them converted so I can take out the $#^%# commercials? ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now the question is, if Ben goes and edits the archives to remove the link.. Is that destruction of evidence? After a subpoena has been issued, I'm pretty sure it is. Before then, I'm not sure. Either way, I'm not going to modify the archives on liberty.gnhlug.org unless someone files a formal complaint. (And to any smart-asses on this list: GNHLUG actually *does* have a lawyer available. Please do not waste his time or our very meager resources with a spurious complaint.) I should point out that this list is publicly archived at multiple sites, and "we" have no control over such archives. -- "One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / And the next it's rolling over me" -- Rush, "Far Cry" ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
I note you posted a link to a comment in a blog which is a link to a different blog entry which is a link that results in an HTTP 404 error. heheh, I didn't notice the 404 error. Ok, citing a 404 page is pretty poor as a defense. "Never mind" in my best Emily Latella voice You were asked not to bring up details of practicing copyright violation, and in response you posted a link to a site that specializes in same. Actually, I posted a link to an rss feed, as an example of how a list sorting duplicate handling problem was handled in one case. But potato, potato. It wasn't my intention to do more than answer a specific raised question about that problem, and if I offended and upset you, I do apologize for it. Seth ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Jon 'maddog' Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think that most of us on this list will agree that the recent rulings of our government sponsored by the recording and broadcast industries are Draconian by any measure. I absolutely agree, here. You might find less agreement on how much freedom people would allow in file sharing and swapping of copyrighted material. I'm not even going as far as weighing in on that matter. I'm just saying that, right or wrong, I do not want to open a legal can of worms. I doubt GNHLUG or MV does, either. "Don't seek out trouble; it will find you soon enough on its own." Let's change the law to something that is better. Well said! -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
[I'm spooling up Seth Cohn's posts and consolidating them into a single reply. Order of comments has been rearranged for (supposed) clarity. An errors in editing are mine and mine alone. Actual results may vary. Participating locations only.] On 3/26/07, Seth Cohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: *** DO NOT DISCUSS ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ON THIS LIST. I understand your point, and will comply with your wishes, despite my _opinion_ that it's not illegal in the first place. *Thank you.* pissing match with the MPAA. Since we were talking television and not ever movies, the MPAA isn't an issue ... Um, the MPAA explicitly considers television their problem: "The MPAA ... serve as the voice and advocate of the American motion picture, home video and television industries" -- http://www.mpaa.org/AboutUs.asp You make the same mistake a lot of people do (myself included): You suppose the world (and law in particular) works the way you think it should. There is a huge difference between supposition and actual knowledge. Fear of the unknown law is worse than the actual laws at times. If you are willing to sign a contract stating you will cover all of the costs arising from hypothetical legal action (including legal council, as well as replacement hardware if the server is seized as evidence), and are willing to post a bond as a measure of your commitment, then I'm willing to hear you. Otherwise, you're volunteering me, GNHLUG, and MV Communications for *your* legal battle. I'm not too keen on that idea. It's relatively easy for one person to take on a battle. As the list admin, I have a responsibility to act in the interests of everyone who associates themselves with GNHLUG. ... cyberlaw is a mixed bag so far... Absolutely. And we have no way of knowing what we might pull out of said mixed bag, should it come down to it. I, for one, do not wish to gamble on it. No, I am not a lawyer, neither are you. No, I am not a lawyer. However, I *am* acting on real legal council received from an actual lawyer in a past situation about the common carrier status of a BBS. http://www.techdirt.com/article.php?sid=20060306/0356217#c171 While I do not dispute that certain legal protections have been (inconsistently) applied to online forums, I note you posted a link to a comment in a blog which is a link to a different blog entry which is a link that results in an HTTP 404 error. As citations go, that one fails to impress. (I'm not asking you to go Google some more links; I'm pointing out that your failure to check your source has somewhat diminished your credibility in my eyes. Moral being: Check your sources.) when you can't discuss the issues (and use illustrations such as links of the sort of things that are under fire), ... The courts see a difference between the discussion of a law in general, vs explicit instruction on how to break said law. Further, the courts, not to mention your fellow human beings, recognize the concept of "intent". You were asked not to bring up details of practicing copyright violation, and in response you posted a link to a site that specializes in same. That is more than walking on legally shaky ground. That is behaving like a jerk. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that was an exception to your normal behavior. I'm certainly not immune to loosing my cool. -- Ben "Can't you see / My temperature's rising / I radiate more heat than light" -- Rush, "Presto" ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
Seth, There is a not-so-fine line between the issues of copyright, DMCA, etc. being discussed and the "HOWTO" of performing illegal acts being discussed, particularly when people get fast and loose about saying "I did this" and "I used this". Even if you are careful about what you say, others may not be. I think that most of us on this list will agree that the recent rulings of our government sponsored by the recording and broadcast industries are Draconian by any measure. You might find less agreement on how much freedom people would allow in file sharing and swapping of copyrighted material. >From my viewpoint you are welcome to discuss the issues of these topics (although I hope with an appropriate subject line), but not ways of breaking the law. Let's change the law to something that is better. Warmest regards, maddog ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
To use a really bad analogy: If you want to argue that homicide
should not be illegal, I don't have a problem with that (as the server
operator). But I would object to anyone giving instructions on how to
kill others and get away with it, or links to same. I'd also frown
upon anyone claiming they commit homicide on a regular basis.
Sometimes I kill. I look up their id, and issue the command:
# kill {id}
Sometimes I really kill, with extreme prejudice:
# kill -9 {id}
It's ok, usually, as I'm above the law, when I'm root. Permissions
don't matter to me.
I'm a unix god!
I'd link to the man page someplace on the Internet, but Ben wouldn't
like that. (grin)
And I'm sure linking to http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/
is just going way way too far.
___
gnhlug-discuss mailing list
gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
One link to just show that some court decisions seem to indicate that lists like this one are protected from the content expressed by its members No, I am not a lawyer, neither are you. Feel free to err on the side of caution if you so wish, I understand that. I'm merely pointing out that cyberlaw is a mixed bag so far... and not standing up for one's rights to free speech is the easiest way to lose it. Fear of the unknown law is worse than the actual laws at times. http://www.techdirt.com/article.php?sid=20060306/0356217#c171 I'm done with the topic, ok, Ben? Though I will report on how well my Linux Media setup works when I get it going. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Frankly, the Bono copyright extension was a perversion of justice, and I'd be glad to prove it to a jury in a court of law. As I said, *I am totally uninterested in campaign speeches*. Clarification: I am uninterested in campaign speeches arguing that this list should allow discussion of how do something illegal. If you want to campaign that a class of activities, in general, should or should not be illegal, knock yourself out. Just don't get into specifics. To use a really bad analogy: If you want to argue that homicide should not be illegal, I don't have a problem with that (as the server operator). But I would object to anyone giving instructions on how to kill others and get away with it, or links to same. I'd also frown upon anyone claiming they commit homicide on a regular basis. -- "One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / And the next it's rolling over me" -- Rush, "Far Cry" ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
Rather scary how a mere discussion of the legalities elicts such a furor, another chilling effect illustrated... when you can't discuss the issues (and use illustrations such as links of the sort of things that are under fire), what's left but to cave in and give up? Now the question is, if Ben goes and edits the archives to remove the link.. Is that destruction of evidence? H.. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
*** DO NOT DISCUSS ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ON THIS LIST. I understand your point, and will comply with your wishes, despite my _opinion_ that it's not illegal in the first place. pissing match with the MPAA. Since we were talking television and not ever movies, the MPAA isn't an issue, but again, I know what you meant here. RIAA, MPAA, Information Mafia, it's all the same thing. play whenever you like. In particular, online discussion forums such as this one are *not* Common Carriers. Go ask a lawyer. googling for "discussion forum liability common carrier" finds lots of discussion about the merits of this on both sides. Those interested can read for themselves. Rather scary how a mere discussion of the legalities elicts such a furor, another chilling effect illustrated... when you can't discuss the issues (and use illustrations such as links of the sort of things that are under fire), what's left but to cave in and give up? Seth ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Copyright Issues (Was: Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center))
On 3/26/07, Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: To be fair, I do think copyright issues are something that is up for discussion. After all, it does effect Free/Open Source Software quite a bit. If you or anyone else wants to discuss what law or policy *should* be, and why, go right ahead. But don't use this service as a means to discuss circumvention of law, policy, or even major intent. If service XYZ has policies you don't like, feel free to tell us all why you don't like them. Go ahead and campaign for a boycott, if you like. But don't drag us all into a pit of moral and legal ambiguity. -- "One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / And the next it's rolling over me" -- Rush, "Far Cry" ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Seth Cohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Frankly, the Bono copyright extension was a perversion of justice, and I'd be glad to prove it to a jury in a court of law. As I said, *I am totally uninterested in campaign speeches*. Let me spell this out for you: *** DO NOT DISCUSS ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ON THIS LIST. Illegal activities are those illegal under current US Law, not those Seth Cohn *thinks* should be illegal. Further traffic to the contrary will result in you being banned from this service. As explanation: You seem to think your opinion about what is just and fair and right matters when it comes to what's legal and what isn't. It does not. Your opinion might influence changes in status down the road, but as for what is legal fact *right now*, your opinion DOES NOT COUNT. Do not drag me, GNHLUG, or MV Communications into your own personal pissing match with the MPAA. You are very willing to volunteer others for your legal trouble, and I do not appreciate that *at all*. No, the laws are very clear that you aren't. You aren't responsible for discussion on what is effectively a common carrier. Common Carrier status is not a "Get Out of Jail Free" card you can play whenever you like. In particular, online discussion forums such as this one are *not* Common Carriers. Go ask a lawyer. -- "One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / And the next it's rolling over me" -- Rush, "Far Cry" ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
> Ah, but the sites do a great job of filtering just for such a thing. > For example, [OMITTED} is a feed that doesn't list... STOP. You are pointing out feeds of shows whose legality is questionable at best. This is in violation of the terms of use of this list, this group, and likely the TOS of our kind hosts. And you've illustrated exactly the chilling effect on the flow of information. When a link, NOT copyrighted material itself IN ANY WAY, but a mere link to a website with information on it, is suddenly forbidden fruits and banned, what is the long term effect of that on the Internet, on discussion groups, etc? That, it seems to me, IS on topic for this group, because without open discussion and the Internet flowing freely, and with bad copyright laws and bad patents enforced, the open source community faces a serious threat to its' existence. Let's focus our discussions on Linux and Free/Open Source Software and not on proprietary multimedia. There are plenty of other forums for that. I agree. There is plenty of free and open materials to watch and discuss here or elsewhere. There are tools such as Democracy Internet TV http://www.getdemocracy.com/ and Linux Media, and this is a forum where those can and should be discussed. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Copyright Issues (Was: Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center))
I don't recall the "giving it to a friend" portion of the decision, and the slippery slope of two friends, four friends, putting it on the web site, popping it up on BitTorrent likely crosses the line, somewhere. I agree with this.. Even when people were saying making mix tapes for friends was legal back in the old Napster days.. But I don't think standing in front of the local grocery store and handing out copies of CDs to everybody that walks by as giving a friend a copy, that's distribution Let's focus our discussions on Linux and Free/Open Source Software and not on proprietary multimedia. There are plenty of other forums for that. To be fair, I do think copyright issues are something that is up for discussion. After all, it does effect Free/Open Source Software quite a bit. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
Seth Cohn wrote: > > For free-to-air programs, I suspect it would be very hard to make truly > illegal. Seth: I am not a lawyer and don't believe you are, either. I'd suggest we allow the courts to determine what is and is not legal. > For other programming, I'd still look to the Sony time-shifting > decision and ask what the difference is between this and making a VCR > copy (or more than one) and giving it to a friend. That is and remains > entirely legal. I don't recall the "giving it to a friend" portion of the decision, and the slippery slope of two friends, four friends, putting it on the web site, popping it up on BitTorrent likely crosses the line, somewhere. > Frankly, the Bono copyright extension was a > perversion of justice, and I'd be glad to prove it to a jury in a > court of law. I would be glad to have YOU prove it, too. > Ah, but the sites do a great job of filtering just for such a thing. > For example, [OMITTED} is a feed that doesn't list... STOP. You are pointing out feeds of shows whose legality is questionable at best. This is in violation of the terms of use of this list, this group, and likely the TOS of our kind hosts. Whether or not the site in question is legal is of far less interest to most of the group than whether the chilling effects of finding that out are worth exploring. Let's focus our discussions on Linux and Free/Open Source Software and not on proprietary multimedia. There are plenty of other forums for that. >> One may want to avoid boasting of one's illegal activities in such a >> forum. > > That assumes that it is illegal. And you assume it is not. This forum is not the place for those discussions. -- Ted Roche ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
I download each and every show I wish to watch (and I want for nothing I can't get), getting not only high quality recordings, but with commercials already removed. I'm curious...is there a model in which you'd consider paying for content? Yes, it's called Netflix. For everything else, there are shadier alternatives, so I'm told. Nigel ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
Replies to a number of emails: I'm transition to this solution, but the legality of it is debatable. For free-to-air programs, I suspect it would be very hard to make truly illegal. For other programming, I'd still look to the Sony time-shifting decision and ask what the difference is between this and making a VCR copy (or more than one) and giving it to a friend. That is and remains entirely legal. Frankly, the Bono copyright extension was a perversion of justice, and I'd be glad to prove it to a jury in a court of law. I'm still trying to figure out a good working solution to automatically download the shows I like without getting dupes or incorrect versions (like a french version for example). Ah, but the sites do a great job of filtering just for such a thing. For example, http://tvrss.net/feed/unique/ is a feed that doesn't list duplicates (ie any show episode only appears once) There are others that do the same and more... I also can't get a few shows I enjoy. Such as This Old House, Gardening By The Yard, and a few others. still losing out on one HBO show I enjoy. Just a matter of knowing where to look. Almost everything is out there. In other words, everything is on the Internet, and google is your friend. (Google isn't evil, so it must be legal, right?) I'm curious...is there a model in which you'd consider paying for content? Actually, I did pay for content... I paid hundreds of dollars a month for satellite and cable. I paid far more than the content was worth, due to the monopoly pricing, for example. I have and do pay for DVDs I wish to "own", though of course, the entire copyright system, DVD encryption, DRM, etc attempts prevents me for doing with the paid for content what I wish, so my 'ownership' is reduced to some form of rental. The model could have reasonable prices and fair/non-existent copy-protection or whatever else you'd like. Sure, if the pricing was minimal, or perhaps with commercials to subsidize it, I'd pay a very small amount - on the order of $1 an episode or much less. As someone else pointed out: the TV->DVD market has set a very low pricepoint once they do release the content on DVD, so pricing it higher makes little sense. One may want to avoid boasting of one's illegal activities in such a forum. That assumes that it is illegal. Since there is plenty of free-to-air content, foreign programming, etc, I'm not talking about downloading "illegal" items. For that matter, it just occurred to me that, as the legal owner of the server this list is hosted on, I'm probably exposed to some sort of liability for such discussions. :-( No, the laws are very clear that you aren't. You aren't responsible for discussion on what is effectively a common carrier. In the same way, the 'torrent' sites are now being told that a mere LINK or pointer to information is now illegal, and that really shouldn't hold up in court, because if it is allowed to, your website can, without your knowledge or consent, have a mere comment link make you liable, which would effectively destroy the free flow of information on the Internet, thanks solely to lawyers. Heck, even when it isn't illegal, the media cartels have demonstrated that they will sue you anyway. It is an effective tactic. No, it's not effective. The RIAA is learning that the hard way in general neither ISPs nor colleges will give out private info to them so they can identify those who download 'illegal' music, and the number of lawsuits brought against clearly innocent folks are large enough that all it should take is a bit more of a public outcry to stop the tactics. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 10:16:05AM -0400, Travis Roy wrote: > > > >I download each and every show I wish to watch (and I want for > >nothing I can't get), getting not only high quality recordings, > >but with commercials already removed. Finding new shows is > > I'm transition to this solution, but the legality of it is > debatable. I'm still trying to figure out a good working solution The legality isn't even really debatable. Under current law in the US, this is illegal. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP KeyID 0x57C3430B Holder of Past Knowledge CS, O- "AOL would be a giant diesel-smoking bus with hundreds of ebola victims on board throwing dead wombats and rotten cabbage at the other cars, most of which have been assembled at home from kits." ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Seth Cohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I download each and every show I wish to watch ... Just a reminder, this list is publicly archived. One may want to avoid boasting of one's illegal activities in such a forum. For that matter, it just occurred to me that, as the legal owner of the server this list is hosted on, I'm probably exposed to some sort of liability for such discussions. :-( I'm totally uninterested in campaign speeches about why this shouldn't be illegal. The fact of the matter is, it *is* illegal. Heck, even when it isn't illegal, the media cartels have demonstrated that they will sue you anyway. It is an effective tactic. -- "One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / And the next it's rolling over me" -- Rush, "Far Cry" ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
Kevin D. Clark writes: > I'm curious...is there a model in which you'd consider paying for > content? The model could have reasonable prices and fair/non-existent > copy-protection or whatever else you'd like. First, it has to be a model in which there is content worth paying for. I own a number of VHS (and Beta) movies, and a few DVDs. I paid for them. I can play them whenever I want (well, I'm not sure that the Beta VCR still works). > Please tell us if you'd ever consider paying for this content and, if > so, under what circumstances. Certainly, any content I pay for shoudn't have commercials interspersed. I may be willing to pay for some stuff, but I'm not going to pay for it twice. Bill ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Tom Buskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 3/25/07, Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 3/25/07, Thomas Charron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The problem is, someone needs to stand up and say 'this ain't > > right'. > This hearkens back to the wireless phone carrier subthread I > accidentally started. > As long as people continue to subscribe to the service as it is now, > DirectTV Inc has no incentive to change their ways. > If people refused to pay for service they couldn't record > themselves, I can guarantee this problem would disappear. As a TiVo owner and former DirecTV subscriber, I couldn't figure out why people would get a DirecTiVo instead of a stand alone. The standalone lets you transfer between 2 TiVos or to a PC that you can burn to DVD. The standalone can run HME java apps and view weather, movie listings, etc. The stand alone is free with a 1 year subscription up front. The DirecTiVo has a slightly smaller subscription. Neither can do HDTV. Of course, the Series 3 can. $700 + subscription + cable card. No HME or HME or TiVo2TiVo or TiVo2PC. Actually, DirecTV was using Tivo in their first HD DVR. Originally, this is the box I wanted to get, but was informed they no longer support them. So I went to get one 3rd party. But within a year, they'll be worthless for DirecTV HD content, as they are migrating to MPEG4 video streams rom MPEG2, and the older DirecTivo boxes cannot handle it. I was sad. Of course, my next TiVo will be MythTV. Anyone got a way for them to play .TiVo files directly? Or script Myth to run tivodecode to convert to mpg before playing? :-) Are you speaking of Tivo2Go encrypted/signed files? The unencrypted files can be batch translated, not sure about on the fly conversion, however. -- -- Thomas ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Thomas Charron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 3/26/07, Tom Buskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Of course, my next TiVo will be MythTV. Anyone got a way for them to
play
> .TiVo files directly? Or script Myth to run tivodecode to convert to
mpg
> before playing? :-)
Are you speaking of Tivo2Go encrypted/signed files? The unencrypted
files can be batch translated, not sure about on the fly conversion,
however.
Some people are doing this with MacOSX:
curl -k --digest -u tivo:{MAK} -c cookies.txt "{tivo2go url}" | tivodecode
-m {MAK} -- - | mplayer -vf pp=lb -cache 32768 -
I haven't been able to get the curl part working. tivodecode works great
though.
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Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
I'm curious...is there a model in which you'd consider paying for content? The model could have reasonable prices and fair/non-existent copy-protection or whatever else you'd like. If it's stuff that I can get OTA with an antenna (If I didn't live in the sticks), then no, I wouldn't pay for it. I'd setup myth to record it and auto strip the commercials. So for me there's no difference between this and downloading the torrent. As far as "pay" channels (being cable and premium channels). I would only pay for episodes if they came in the same quality as if I bought the DVD box set or greater, and/or I got a coupon/voucher for the DVD box set when it came out. Then I would pay around $30/season or $2/ episode. Please tell us if you'd ever consider paying for this content and, if so, under what circumstances. Regards, --kevin -- GnuPG ID: B280F24E Never could stand that dog. alumni.unh.edu!kdc -- Tom Waits ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 3/26/07, Tom Buskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > As a TiVo owner and former DirecTV subscriber, I couldn't figure out why > people would get a DirecTiVo instead of a stand alone. As everyone else has said, better quality. The DTiVo units stored the digital MPEG stream right from the satellite feed. No loss of quality by compressing, decompressing, compressing again. Also, at the time, the DTiVo was the only TiVo on the market that had dual tuners. > The standalone lets you transfer between 2 TiVos or to a PC that you can > burn to DVD. The standalone can run HME java apps and view weather, movie > listings, etc. When the DTiVo first came out, none of that was available on the TiVo platform. All it did was record shows and play them back. When TiVo's HMO (Home Media Option, the name from back when it was a pay-extra option) was first announced, a lot of people ass-umed that DirecTV's promises of support meant something. Now that DirecTV has finished shafting all their the DirecTiVo customers, they know better, of course. Hindsight and all that. > Of course, my next TiVo will be MythTV. Anyone got a way for them to play > .TiVo files directly? Or script Myth to run tivodecode to convert to mpg > before playing? :-) Why not just do a one-time batch tivodecode of the .tivo files to .mpeg files? That's what I did. You lose the metadata that the TiVos use. My wife likes having that when she pulls stuff from Galleon on the server to the TiVo. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
Seth Cohn writes: > These days, I do without cable OR satellite. Considering the high > prices I paid for both, I miss neither. But how do you watch TV? I > hear you asking... Antenna? No. > > I download each and every show I wish to watch (and I want for > nothing I can't get), getting not only high quality recordings, but > with commercials already removed. I'm curious...is there a model in which you'd consider paying for content? The model could have reasonable prices and fair/non-existent copy-protection or whatever else you'd like. Please tell us if you'd ever consider paying for this content and, if so, under what circumstances. Regards, --kevin -- GnuPG ID: B280F24E Never could stand that dog. alumni.unh.edu!kdc -- Tom Waits ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
I download each and every show I wish to watch (and I want for nothing I can't get), getting not only high quality recordings, but with commercials already removed. Finding new shows is trivial (thanks to many diverse sites devoted to tracking the shows), and with thousands of others doing the same, the bittorrents are reasonably fast, and I usually can expect to have a show well within 24 hours of it's broadcast. I'm transition to this solution, but the legality of it is debatable. I'm still trying to figure out a good working solution to automatically download the shows I like without getting dupes or incorrect versions (like a french version for example). I also can't get a few shows I enjoy. Such as This Old House, Gardening By The Yard, and a few others. I have come across a friend with a hacked DirecTiVo that will pull the shows for me, but I'm still losing out on one HBO show I enjoy. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/26/07, Tom Buskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: As a TiVo owner and former DirecTV subscriber, I couldn't figure out why people would get a DirecTiVo instead of a stand alone. As everyone else has said, better quality. The DTiVo units stored the digital MPEG stream right from the satellite feed. No loss of quality by compressing, decompressing, compressing again. Also, at the time, the DTiVo was the only TiVo on the market that had dual tuners. The standalone lets you transfer between 2 TiVos or to a PC that you can burn to DVD. The standalone can run HME java apps and view weather, movie listings, etc. When the DTiVo first came out, none of that was available on the TiVo platform. All it did was record shows and play them back. When TiVo's HMO (Home Media Option, the name from back when it was a pay-extra option) was first announced, a lot of people ass-umed that DirecTV's promises of support meant something. Now that DirecTV has finished shafting all their the DirecTiVo customers, they know better, of course. Hindsight and all that. Of course, my next TiVo will be MythTV. Anyone got a way for them to play .TiVo files directly? Or script Myth to run tivodecode to convert to mpg before playing? :-) Why not just do a one-time batch tivodecode of the .tivo files to .mpeg files? That's what I did. -- "One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / And the next it's rolling over me" -- Rush, "Far Cry" ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
> As a TiVo owner and former DirecTV subscriber, I couldn't figure > out why people would get a DirecTiVo instead of a stand alone. I had/have both, I was an early tivolutionary, telling people how much it changed my life, and encouraging them to get one... and also had Comcast's (crappy) DVR for some time. (Which one day soon will get tivoized, according to the industry) These days, I do without cable OR satellite. Considering the high prices I paid for both, I miss neither. But how do you watch TV? I hear you asking... Antenna? No. I download each and every show I wish to watch (and I want for nothing I can't get), getting not only high quality recordings, but with commercials already removed. Finding new shows is trivial (thanks to many diverse sites devoted to tracking the shows), and with thousands of others doing the same, the bittorrents are reasonably fast, and I usually can expect to have a show well within 24 hours of it's broadcast. I've had mythtv up and running in the past with mixed success (low end hardware doesn't run well), though lately (the last year plus), thanks to a cheap DVD player that plays Xvid/Divx/mpg/avi/etc, I easily do sneakernet, burning stuff onto dvds (usually dvd RWs, since I don't usually keep most TV shows around after I watch them) Hardware solution beat most of the software bugs (a few things don't play on the DVD, so I laptop watch those), though I'm tired of the sneakernet, so Linux Media seems like an answer, finally. I'll be installing the next few weeks. Once that's running, I expect between using RSS feeds of torrents I want to want combined with the occasional 'that looks worth watching' click&save, automatic discovery of new shows stored on network drives, and an interface my wife should be able to use, I'll be a very happy camper. So one day soon hopefully, my standalone DVD players will join the 3 tivos and the VCR all sitting around unused. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
As a TiVo owner and former DirecTV subscriber, I couldn't figure out why people would get a DirecTiVo instead of a stand alone. Dual tuner, and "prefect" quality all the time. Even if you have a stand alone tivo and you set it for the highest quality there will be some loss. They're still easy to hack. I have my DirecTiVo, upgraded the HD and I pull off shows with TyTools (to watch, convert, or burn) and have TiVoWeb. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On Mar 26, 2007, at 09:04, Tom Buskey wrote: As a TiVo owner and former DirecTV subscriber, I couldn't figure out why people would get a DirecTiVo instead of a stand alone. I'm building my MythTV box after having a Dish DVR-508 for about 3- ish years. The two advantages it had were: 1) $199, 3 years ago. This was before they instituted a "DVR-fee" so it beat the pants off TiVo on cost. 2) I pull raw MPEG-2 streams off of my hard drive and onto DVD. There's no quality loss between the uplink station and my DVD player. The downside is the software sucks so hard I'm building a MythTV box despite the fact that recordings will be of lower quality. Nothing like a DVR that crashes to ameliorate the WAF of the MythTV box. The hardware also is replete with cold solder joints which I need to put a heat gun to once in a while. I'll probably still use it as a receiver, with the hard drive decommissioned for noise control. I was going to buy a Conditional Access Module to decrypt the DVB-S stream with my SmartCard straight into MythTV but the one vendor has apparently been sued off the market (on 'hacking' grounds, but it also managed to eliminate legitimate competition). Analog appears to be the best of poor choices in our environment of regulatory capture. If I payed a bit more attention in EE class I could probably find an old receiver and extricate the CAM from it, tying it into the linux DVB code. That's a project for perhaps after analog is working. Anyway, the point is the integrated units give you that quality without taking any EE classes. I hear a new TiVo can take a cablecard - I haven't looked into what's possible there with satellite, but I haven't heard anybody talking about it either. -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 New Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On 3/25/07, Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 3/25/07, Thomas Charron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The problem is, someone needs to stand up and say 'this ain't > right'. This hearkens back to the wireless phone carrier subthread I accidentally started. As long as people continue to subscribe to the service as it is now, DirectTV Inc has no incentive to change their ways. If people refused to pay for service they couldn't record themselves, I can guarantee this problem would disappear. As a TiVo owner and former DirecTV subscriber, I couldn't figure out why people would get a DirecTiVo instead of a stand alone. The standalone lets you transfer between 2 TiVos or to a PC that you can burn to DVD. The standalone can run HME java apps and view weather, movie listings, etc. The stand alone is free with a 1 year subscription up front. The DirecTiVo has a slightly smaller subscription. Neither can do HDTV. Of course, the Series 3 can. $700 + subscription + cable card. No HME or HME or TiVo2TiVo or TiVo2PC. Of course, my next TiVo will be MythTV. Anyone got a way for them to play .TiVo files directly? Or script Myth to run tivodecode to convert to mpg before playing? :-) ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On Sun, 2007-03-25 at 22:49 -0500, Nigel Stewart wrote: > > "Internet Radio has been sentenced to death." -- Doc Searls > > "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems > will slip through your fingers." > > --- Princess Leia Organa > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Leia_Organa The difference is that "Princess Leia" and "Tarkin" are fiction, and the fact they are trying to kill Internet Radio is real life. md ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
"Internet Radio has been sentenced to death." -- Doc Searls "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." --- Princess Leia Organa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Leia_Organa ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: > Now if a rogue media outlet started making good media (movies, > songs, etc.) available at reasonable prices, playable on any device and > also did not block you from recording them for personal use, that might > give some competition. On the other hand they probably could not > deliver them over any of the standard delivery vehicles, since those > were already sabotaged by the monopolies, and we would probably as a > society have to develop a whole new way of financing the creation of the > new movies and songs. Hmmm...isn't there that thing called the > Internet? Tried that. The oligopolies conspired with the government to kill it. It was Internet Radio: "Internet Radio has been sentenced to death." -- Doc Searls http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1000196 -- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Why we can't record our TV shows (was: In case you have not seen it.....Linux Media Center)
On Sun, 2007-03-25 at 14:35 -0400, Ben Scott wrote: > On 3/25/07, Thomas Charron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The problem is, someone needs to stand up and say 'this ain't > > right'. > > This hearkens back to the wireless phone carrier subthread I > accidentally started. > > As long as people continue to subscribe to the service as it is now, > DirectTV Inc has no incentive to change their ways. > > If people refused to pay for service they couldn't record > themselves, I can guarantee this problem would disappear. > Ben, I agree, but I think that another part of the problem is the fact that there are monopolies. Sure, in some places there is competition to "DirectTV", but in other places there is not. No cable, no OTA. And to say "no" to DirectTV means that you not only can't tape the show, you can't see it either. And even if DirectTV is not a "monopoly" in the area, the fact that the broadcasting industry as a whole is, and the media industry as a whole is a monopoly (and the government lets them do that) makes the whole thing an "either/or". Then kids cry and wives (or husbands) beat you up. "It takes a village" (or at least a house) to understand and feel this way. Now if a rogue media outlet started making good media (movies, songs, etc.) available at reasonable prices, playable on any device and also did not block you from recording them for personal use, that might give some competition. On the other hand they probably could not deliver them over any of the standard delivery vehicles, since those were already sabotaged by the monopolies, and we would probably as a society have to develop a whole new way of financing the creation of the new movies and songs. Hmmm...isn't there that thing called the Internet? md ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
