Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your, opinions?
24.01.2018 18:49 "Марко М. Костић" wrote:
> [...]
> Hi all,
>
> I'm also a member of the Serbian GNOME localization team and my opinion is
> that any change that would make the translation more natural to the end user
> is a welcome one.
I can't tell which form is more natural to the Serbian end users,
that's why I'm asking the translators.
For now, if a phrase "24. јануар" ("24. januar") is correct in Serbian
then I suggest to leave it unchanged, at least for now. You may rethink
it later and if you find it useful to have two cases and worth the effort
we may apply the change in the next development cycle which ends in
6 months.
The same I'd suggest for Czech and Slovak languages unless they change
their minds in the coming days.
> It would even be better if it was possible to handle all cases
> (something akin to
> the Mozilla's L20N[0]) but that's probably out of the scope for this change.
>
> [0] http://l20n.org/
Yes, this has been discussed and we have decided that is too complex.
The aim of strftime() is to format a date. Using it in sentences is
too much. Of course this is nice if a formatted date can be used
in a sentence but this is not obligatory to implement it in strftime().
Regards,
Rafal
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Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your, opinions?
Дана 24.01.2018., у 13:00, gnome-i18n-requ...@gnome.org пише: Message: 1 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 23:23:32 +0100 (CET) From: Rafal Luzynski To: ? ??? , Diskuze o lokalizaci open source do ??e??tiny , GNOME i18n list Subject: Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions? Message-ID: <169870748.1268794.1516746212...@poczta.nazwa.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 23.01.2018 08:51 ? ??? wrote: It would be great to get the opinion from the entire language community, although I didn?t get any reply from others for Serbian. Good idea to get more opinions. Hi all, I'm also a member of the Serbian GNOME localization team and my opinion is that any change that would make the translation more natural to the end user is a welcome one. It would even be better if it was possible to handle all cases (something akin to the Mozilla's L20N[0]) but that's probably out of the scope for this change. [0] http://l20n.org/ Sincerely, Marko M. Kostić ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
23.01.2018 08:51 Милош Поповић wrote: > > > It would be great to get the opinion from the entire language community, > although I didn’t get any reply from others for Serbian. Good idea to get more opinions. > Personally I think we > will benefit from this change, but it will initially make a huge mess. I just hoped that you will benefit after having read your old answers. As far as I understand, the impact of this bug in Serbian (and same in Czech and Slovak) is not huge so you may decide to postpone the change. A plan may be: first reword all "%B" and "%b" translations to "%OB" and "%Ob", respectively, except those which should remain in a genitive case. Then introduce the change to the locale data. I think that previously you have measured that there are about 20 occurrences of "%OB" and "%Ob" in whole GNOME projects and all of them should be in a nominative case in Serbian while only 2 or 3 should be in a genitive case. Or you may decide that this change is not needed in your language and leave everything as is. That's a good option if you and your community decide this. Regards, Rafal ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
22.01.2018 11:53 k...@keldix.com wrote: > [...] > Yes, I think this change is not clean design. We should keep the meaning of > mon > to be the nominative name of the month. > Otherwise it would break cal and other programs > Making a new notion for what we need here like genitive form, would be a > cleaner design. > > When we make the change, and we apply it in a locale, we can then both change > the > date format and the info for the genitive form. As this can happen > simultaneously, > there is no need for backwards compatibility for the date format. And we would have to make the same change in dozens of other applications as well. This has been discussed and decided at developers' level already. Indeed, it will break cal and few other applications but at the same time automagically will fix lots of other applications. > The idea of CLDR to use %Om for uppercased first letter is to me another > case of bad design. How can an application know that for languages using > genitinve > names this would apply and it would be good to have for all other languages > the month > name spelled with an initial upper case? Of course it will depend on the language (actually: the locale data) whether and how it will work. > And why should languages with genitive month > names not have the possibility to have an initial upper case? True, I'd like the same for the inflected languages as well. I don't read this as "other languages should use it for lower/uppercase month names" but "other languages can use it, if they want". Otherwise we have to say that this change has no use for other languages (which is not bad, OTOH). > In my mind it would be better to have a special formatting letter to say that > the initial letter should be upper case, and that would then also apply > to abbereviations and day names. I definitely agree and this is on my radar. Any idea of such a format specifier? > POSIX has recently also adressed the problem end made new provisions, > I think we should look carefully into this. Has this been done? Could you please provide a link to these new provisions in POSIX? I'm not aware of them. Regards, Rafal ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
Thanks for this further explanation.
Spanish example: el 5 de Mayo - in Dutch we say 5 mei.
Hannie
On 21-01-18 11:23, Rafal Luzynski wrote:
21.01.2018 08:58 Hannie Dumoleyn wrote:
Hello Rafal,
Although I do not see Dutch in your list, I was just curious what you
mean by genitive and nominative case when speaking of month names.
TL;DR: AFAIK Dutch language is not affected, nothing will be changed.
A longer explanation: sorry for this confusion, instead of "genitive"
and "nominative" I should use the long description: "the month name
in the grammatical form required when the month is used as part
of a complete date" and "the month name in the form required when
the month is named by itself". Some languages do not have declension
and no nominative and genitive case, some languages do have the
genitive case but do not use it when formatting a date, some languages
have very simple system and the genitive case is created by adding
a simple preposition ("de" in Spanish, is it "van" in Dutch?) or
a simple suffix ("ta" in Finnish), always looking the same. In those
languages the new feature is not needed.
could
you please give some examples?
Upper Sorbian: January - "januar", but January 21st - "21 januara"
Polish: "styczeń", but "21 stycznia"
Czech: "leden" but "21 ledna" (it must be verified if they really
need this)
Croatian: "siječanj" but "21 siječnja".
Catalan: "gener", but "21 de gener" - that looks easy but compare
with: April: "abril" but "21 d’abril" - impossible to handle with
the current system.
Finnish: "tammikuu" - but "21 tammikuuta" (always "ta" appended,
this system is easy and they don't need this new feature).
I have forwarded this email to ubuntu-translators.
Thank you, I have never been involved in Ubuntu so didn't think
about it. This can be very helpful.
Regards,
Rafal
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Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 00:10:28 +0100 (CET) Rafal Luzynski wrote: > Hello, > > I'm reviving this old thread. [1] As my work on the glibc patches > is over and I'm going to apply them on Monday [2] I'd like to hear > your final opinion about importing the locale data for your languages. > Please note that there will be no visible changes in the locales > if the locale data are not changed. So far I have only one 100% positive > opinion from the Polish translator (thank you Piotr) and some attention > from Greek, [3] Serbian, [4] and Scottish Gaelic [5] translators. > > Here is the list of languages from which I'd like to hear the opinion > whether to update the locale data now: > > Armenian, Asturian, Belarusian, Catalan, Croatian, Czech, Farsi, > Finnish, Greek, Kashubian, Lithuanian, Ossetian, Russian, Scottish Gaelic, > Silesian, Slovak, Sorbian (Upper and Lower), Ukrainian, Walloon. > > For those languages which are updated the currently used "%B" and > "%b" format specifiers will automatically start displaying the > genitive case which is usually correct. There are however some > applications (e.g., calendars) which need the nominative case. > In those applications the developers and translators would have > to change it to "%OB" and "%Ob", respectively. > > In case of Finnish the answer is probably "no" because their > system of generating the genitive case is simple and they have already > fixed this. > > In case of Czech, Serbian and (probably) Slovak the case is controversial. > As far as I was told, in those languages the nominative case is used > normally in dates unless whole date is in a genitive case. However, Not sure who provided you with this information, but for Czech, this is not quite true. While using nominative for %B is not exactly incorrect (so the current implementation can be seen as acceptable), being able to use genitive for %B would allow us to provide a translation that sounds more natural. However, changing anything in glibc is very tricky so I won't vote for this change without hearing what other Czech translators think. I think other language groups might share the same sentiment, actually. In any case, CC'ing the Czech translation community list to spread the news about this. Thanks for your work, Rafal. Best, pk ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
21.01.2018 08:58 Hannie Dumoleyn wrote:
>
>
> Hello Rafal,
> Although I do not see Dutch in your list, I was just curious what you
> mean by genitive and nominative case when speaking of month names.
TL;DR: AFAIK Dutch language is not affected, nothing will be changed.
A longer explanation: sorry for this confusion, instead of "genitive"
and "nominative" I should use the long description: "the month name
in the grammatical form required when the month is used as part
of a complete date" and "the month name in the form required when
the month is named by itself". Some languages do not have declension
and no nominative and genitive case, some languages do have the
genitive case but do not use it when formatting a date, some languages
have very simple system and the genitive case is created by adding
a simple preposition ("de" in Spanish, is it "van" in Dutch?) or
a simple suffix ("ta" in Finnish), always looking the same. In those
languages the new feature is not needed.
> could
> you please give some examples?
Upper Sorbian: January - "januar", but January 21st - "21 januara"
Polish: "styczeń", but "21 stycznia"
Czech: "leden" but "21 ledna" (it must be verified if they really
need this)
Croatian: "siječanj" but "21 siječnja".
Catalan: "gener", but "21 de gener" - that looks easy but compare
with: April: "abril" but "21 d’abril" - impossible to handle with
the current system.
Finnish: "tammikuu" - but "21 tammikuuta" (always "ta" appended,
this system is easy and they don't need this new feature).
> I have forwarded this email to ubuntu-translators.
Thank you, I have never been involved in Ubuntu so didn't think
about it. This can be very helpful.
Regards,
Rafal
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Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
Hello Rafal, Although I do not see Dutch in your list, I was just curious what you mean by genitive and nominative case when speaking of month names. could you please give some examples? I have forwarded this email to ubuntu-translators. Best regards, Hannie Gnome Dutch translators On 21-01-18 00:10, Rafal Luzynski wrote: Hello, I'm reviving this old thread. [1] As my work on the glibc patches is over and I'm going to apply them on Monday [2] I'd like to hear your final opinion about importing the locale data for your languages. Please note that there will be no visible changes in the locales if the locale data are not changed. So far I have only one 100% positive opinion from the Polish translator (thank you Piotr) and some attention from Greek, [3] Serbian, [4] and Scottish Gaelic [5] translators. Here is the list of languages from which I'd like to hear the opinion whether to update the locale data now: Armenian, Asturian, Belarusian, Catalan, Croatian, Czech, Farsi, Finnish, Greek, Kashubian, Lithuanian, Ossetian, Russian, Scottish Gaelic, Silesian, Slovak, Sorbian (Upper and Lower), Ukrainian, Walloon. For those languages which are updated the currently used "%B" and "%b" format specifiers will automatically start displaying the genitive case which is usually correct. There are however some applications (e.g., calendars) which need the nominative case. In those applications the developers and translators would have to change it to "%OB" and "%Ob", respectively. In case of Finnish the answer is probably "no" because their system of generating the genitive case is simple and they have already fixed this. In case of Czech, Serbian and (probably) Slovak the case is controversial. As far as I was told, in those languages the nominative case is used normally in dates unless whole date is in a genitive case. However, the Serbian translator suggested that this would be still useful for their language even if this would cause changing almost all "%B" format specifiers to "%OB". [4] Alternatively, those languages may decide not to use this new feature. In case of Asturian, Catalan, and Walloon: the genitive case is created adding "de" before the month name which is changed to "d’" if the month name starts with a vowel (e.g., "d’abril" in Catalan). In those languages "de" would have to be removed from all format specifiers because the correct "de"/"d’" prefix would be already contained in "%B" format specifier. In all other languages the change seems to be obviously correct and expected but, again, I don't want to change anything without asking the language communities about their opinion. Also, CLDR suggests that the languages which do not need the nominative/genitive case can use this feature to display the month name capitalized when it is standalone (e.g., "Enero" in Spanish) and lowercase when it is used in a full date (e.g., "20 de enero"). CLDR provides the different lowercase/uppercase month names for these languages: Albanian, Azerbaijani, Bosnian, Chechen, Galician, Italian, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Spanish (only Peru and Uruguay, I really don't understand why), Turkmen, Uzbek. Note that these lists may be incomplete. Please find and review my proposed changes in my github repo. [6] I'm sorry for this kinda off-topic post because this is not directly about GNOME but I was told that this list is the best place to find a diverse community of translators. Also note that glibc is the base library for almost all Linux software, definitely including GNOME. See also the related glib2 bug [7]. Let's hope that the next release of GNOME Shell and GNOME Calendar will display the dates correctly in every language. Regards, Rafal [1] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2017-April/msg00054.html [2] https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2018-01/msg00681.html [3] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2017-April/msg00064.html [4] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2017-May/msg00021.html [5] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2017-April/msg00056.html [6] https://github.com/rluzynski/glibc [7] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=749206 ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
Hello, I'm reviving this old thread. [1] As my work on the glibc patches is over and I'm going to apply them on Monday [2] I'd like to hear your final opinion about importing the locale data for your languages. Please note that there will be no visible changes in the locales if the locale data are not changed. So far I have only one 100% positive opinion from the Polish translator (thank you Piotr) and some attention from Greek, [3] Serbian, [4] and Scottish Gaelic [5] translators. Here is the list of languages from which I'd like to hear the opinion whether to update the locale data now: Armenian, Asturian, Belarusian, Catalan, Croatian, Czech, Farsi, Finnish, Greek, Kashubian, Lithuanian, Ossetian, Russian, Scottish Gaelic, Silesian, Slovak, Sorbian (Upper and Lower), Ukrainian, Walloon. For those languages which are updated the currently used "%B" and "%b" format specifiers will automatically start displaying the genitive case which is usually correct. There are however some applications (e.g., calendars) which need the nominative case. In those applications the developers and translators would have to change it to "%OB" and "%Ob", respectively. In case of Finnish the answer is probably "no" because their system of generating the genitive case is simple and they have already fixed this. In case of Czech, Serbian and (probably) Slovak the case is controversial. As far as I was told, in those languages the nominative case is used normally in dates unless whole date is in a genitive case. However, the Serbian translator suggested that this would be still useful for their language even if this would cause changing almost all "%B" format specifiers to "%OB". [4] Alternatively, those languages may decide not to use this new feature. In case of Asturian, Catalan, and Walloon: the genitive case is created adding "de" before the month name which is changed to "d’" if the month name starts with a vowel (e.g., "d’abril" in Catalan). In those languages "de" would have to be removed from all format specifiers because the correct "de"/"d’" prefix would be already contained in "%B" format specifier. In all other languages the change seems to be obviously correct and expected but, again, I don't want to change anything without asking the language communities about their opinion. Also, CLDR suggests that the languages which do not need the nominative/genitive case can use this feature to display the month name capitalized when it is standalone (e.g., "Enero" in Spanish) and lowercase when it is used in a full date (e.g., "20 de enero"). CLDR provides the different lowercase/uppercase month names for these languages: Albanian, Azerbaijani, Bosnian, Chechen, Galician, Italian, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Spanish (only Peru and Uruguay, I really don't understand why), Turkmen, Uzbek. Note that these lists may be incomplete. Please find and review my proposed changes in my github repo. [6] I'm sorry for this kinda off-topic post because this is not directly about GNOME but I was told that this list is the best place to find a diverse community of translators. Also note that glibc is the base library for almost all Linux software, definitely including GNOME. See also the related glib2 bug [7]. Let's hope that the next release of GNOME Shell and GNOME Calendar will display the dates correctly in every language. Regards, Rafal [1] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2017-April/msg00054.html [2] https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2018-01/msg00681.html [3] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2017-April/msg00064.html [4] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2017-May/msg00021.html [5] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2017-April/msg00056.html [6] https://github.com/rluzynski/glibc [7] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=749206 ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
19.05.2017 00:03 Милош Поповић wrote: > > > It is also possible for us to change all the translations where nominative is > required to %OB, It would mean to change them almost everywhere. > although it required more effort from the translators. That's my point. :-) > Personally, it would not be a problem for us to change those strings in Gnome > when the time comes. Thank you in advance. I always also offer my help in case an additional work is necessary because of the changes I am trying to introduce. But that's the future. Regards, Rafal ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
It is also possible for us to change all the translations where nominative is required to %OB, although it required more effort from the translators. Personally, it would not be a problem for us to change those strings in Gnome when the time comes. У чет, 18. 05 2017. у 23:45 +0200, Rafal Luzynski пише: > It seems to me that my idea of introducing %OB which will generate > the nominative case and switch the existing %B into the genitive case > is acceptable in most of the languages which need this except Serbian, > Czech, and maybe Slovak which would prefer %B to generate nominative > (as it is normally used in dates in those languages) while they still > sometimes need also a genitive case which can be generated by %OB. > This is possible if you provide locale data in glibc correctly and then > use them in translated format strings in a way matching the locale data. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
17.05.2017 22:42 Милош Поповић wrote: > > > Hello Rafal, > > You made it clear now and I do support your idea of incorporating genitive in > glibc. Maybe it would be better to stick to %B for nominative and %OB for > genitive for Serbian. I will post the idea to Serbian translation team(s) > mailing list and we will see what to do with CLDR. Thank you, Miloš. And thank you everybody who replied in this thread. It seems to me that my idea of introducing %OB which will generate the nominative case and switch the existing %B into the genitive case is acceptable in most of the languages which need this except Serbian, Czech, and maybe Slovak which would prefer %B to generate nominative (as it is normally used in dates in those languages) while they still sometimes need also a genitive case which can be generated by %OB. This is possible if you provide locale data in glibc correctly and then use them in translated format strings in a way matching the locale data. However, this approach will have one fallout: nl_langinfo(ALTMON_x) will generate the nominative case in all other languages while it will generate the genitive case in those two or three. The solutions are: * deprecate nl_langinfo() as a way to obtain the list of months, use strftime() only - that's not so wrong idea as it is tricky already and I spot bugs even in FreeBSD and OS X; * give up on the genitive case in Serbian, Czech, and maybe Slovak as they are used too rarely. I'll write a similar post to glibc-alpha list. Best regards, Rafal ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
Hello Rafal, You made it clear now and I do support your idea of incorporating genitive in glibc. Maybe it would be better to stick to %B for nominative and %OB for genitive for Serbian. I will post the idea to Serbian translation team(s) mailing list and we will see what to do with CLDR. Thanks for your effort on this, Miloš ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
14.05.2017 15:41 Alexandre Franke wrote: > [...] > There https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=775548 filed against > gnome-calendar too which is relevant to this conversation. Thank you Alexandre for your attention. This bug is also interesting for me but I must say it is not directly relevant to this conversation. This conversation is about grammatical cases [1] which AFAIK are not used in French but obligatorily required in some languages. Bug 775548 is about upper/lower case of the letter, especially the initial letter. > Can someone > have a look and help move it forward? As I already wrote, there are two solutions: one is to implement this feature in glib2 or even better in glibc but it may take years before it will be designed, accepted, tested, etc., and another is to apply a patch to gnome-calendar. The patch is almost ready and needs just some minor fixes but the idea of the patch was then rejected. If I understand correctly, the main problem is that in some languages it is incorrect to uppercase the first letter of the month even if there is nothing before the month name (e.g., when the month name is standalone). Regards, Rafal [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tom Tryfonidis wrote: > After taking a closer look, I was wrong about gnome-calendar, as it uses %B > %d for its views. There https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=775548 filed against gnome-calendar too which is relevant to this conversation. Can someone have a look and help move it forward? -- Alexandre Franke GNOME Hacker & Foundation Director ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
2017-04-22 0:31 GMT+02:00 Rafal Luzynski : > Thank you for this research! I was aware of the changes needed > in California but I was completely unaware of the changes needed > in Evolution and Shotwell. We should add to it the changes needed > in GNOME Shell and it would be probably all in whole GNOME project. > Just a note that California is virtually abandoned since early 2015. Cheers, -- Piotr Drąg https://piotrdrag.fedorapeople.org ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
21.04.2017 12:59 Tom Tryfonidis wrote: > [...] > After taking a closer look, I was wrong about gnome-calendar, as it uses %B > %d for its views. Which is already translatable so the translators are able to replace it with the formats preferred in their languages. Also %B would be correct here and would not need a change. > > I think that you as the translators have a bigger > >experience as you have translated many or all such applications. > >How many times did you translate "%d %B" or "%d %B %Y" vs. > >"%B" or "%B %Y"? > > > > The later is less common on translations. > "grep"-ing GNOME core and extra UI translations i found these three > applications that use "%B %Y" or "%B" format: > > evolution.master.el.po:msgid "%B %Y" > evolution.master.el.po:msgid "%B" > california.master.el.po:msgid "%B %Y" > shotwell.master.el.po:msgid "%B" > > Tom > Thank you for this research! I was aware of the changes needed in California but I was completely unaware of the changes needed in Evolution and Shotwell. We should add to it the changes needed in GNOME Shell and it would be probably all in whole GNOME project. Regards, Rafal ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
On 21 April 2017 at 02:46, Rafal Luzynski wrote: > > So, to make things easier for everyone, i agree that it would be better > to > > use %B for "full date" form and %OB for "standalone" form (the chances > to use > > the alternative %OB format for the affected languages are low and > limited only > > to specific use cases, e.g. GNOME Calendar uses standalone form for > > Week/Month/Year views). > > Of course, there will be a (hopefully) limited number of applications > which will need minor fixes and I'm already preparing patches for > them even if it is too early: > > - to prove that the number of the applications is low, > - to prove that the changes are minor, > - to provide the fix for what I might potentially break, > - to let the people see the result already. > > After taking a closer look, I was wrong about gnome-calendar, as it uses %B %d for its views. I think that you as the translators have a bigger > experience as you have translated many or all such applications. > How many times did you translate "%d %B" or "%d %B %Y" vs. > "%B" or "%B %Y"? The later is less common on translations. "grep"-ing GNOME core and extra UI translations i found these three applications that use "%B %Y" or "%B" format: evolution.master.el.po:msgid "%B %Y" evolution.master.el.po:msgid "%B" california.master.el.po:msgid "%B %Y" shotwell.master.el.po:msgid "%B" Tom ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
> How many times did you translate "%d %B" or "%d %B %Y" vs. > "%B" or "%B %Y"? I just grepped my personal translations directory for %B. Our translation of Gnome is not complete, so there will be more. Standalone %B: Shotwell %B in combination with %d or %e: Eye of Gnome File Roller Gnome Calendar Gnome Color Manager Gnome Control Center Gnome Photos Gnome Shell Gnome Software Linux Mint Cinnamon Linux Mint Cinnamon Screensaver Linux Mint Nemo Linux Mint Xviewer Mozilla Firefox + Thunderbird Open Street Map ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
>> Moreover we use ordinal and cardinal day numbers, ordinal for the first day >> of the month, and cardinal for the others (2-31) >> Moreover we use singular for the first day, plural for the others... >> So we really need this solution. >> >> example: >> al 1ⁿ di mai dal 2017 >> ai 15 di mai dal 2017 > > This is a different issue, independent on what I'd like to > discuss here. But I assure you that I'm aware of it and I've > already commented here: > > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=768192 > https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10547#c2 I have now also filed a ticket with the CLDR for this issue: http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/10213 ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
20.04.2017 23:01 David Sapienza wrote: > > I didn't consider the fact that there are very few applications where the > standalone month name is used (e.g. calendars). Considering that, the problem > of "breaking" some applications, that was my main concern about your proposal, > could be solved without too many effort. This is what I was going to tell. To be honest, I should make a huge survey before telling that there are only few applications which display month names standalone and most of the applications which display dates display at least the day number and the month name together. I think that you as the translators have a bigger experience as you have translated many or all such applications. How many times did you translate "%d %B" or "%d %B %Y" vs. "%B" or "%B %Y"? Also the potential "breaking" is not greater than the current situation when all date formats are "broken". And, another good news, the difference will be visible in "only" about 20 languages (compared to about 200 languages currently supported by Linux). > > > > ---- Original Message > > Subject: Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your > > opinions? > > Local Time: April 20, 2017 1:08 AM > > UTC Time: April 19, 2017 11:08 PM > > From: digitalfr...@lingonborough.com > > To: David Sapienza , > > gnome-i18n@gnome.org > > > > [...] > > An example of western European language where the genitive > > form is required but not handled correctly is Catalan: > > > > gener; febrer; març; abril - nominative forms when standalone, but: > > > > 20 de gener; 20 de febrer; 20 de març; 20 d’abril - there is currently > > no simple solution to display "de" vs. "d’" and complex solutions > > are not acceptable. > > > > > Here I completely got your point. > I mentioned Italian and French only because these are the two language I > speak. Are you able to understand Latin? It is not supported by any operating system I'm aware of but AFAIK it is close to Italian and it features the same complex declension system as many eastern European languages. I hope it will let you understand my idea even better. > By the way another language that needs the genitive form is Spanish > (Castilian): "20 de enero", "20 de febrero", "20 de marzo", ... Fortunately, no. I've consulted it with Spanish speaking people and since the preposition is always "de" it's sufficient for them to use "%d de %B" - problem solved. Even in your example: "20 de enero" is correct, "20 d’enero" would be incorrect. But of course if they decide to use this standalone/full-date (or basic/alternative or nominative/genitive) system they will be able to do it. > > > > > > > > In languages where the genitive form is used in full context, it is > > > often written in nominative form (as an abbreviation) > > > > I think I'm getting lost here: if a language requires a genitive > > form but a software offers only nominative form then it's a bug > > which I'm going to fix. > > > > Whether abbreviations should have the nominative/genitive variants > > is a separate question. But if you want to ask it then I'll answer: > > for a long time I also thought they don't need them because > > nominative/genitive cases are created by adding suffixes which > > are removed when making an abbreviation. Until I've found examples > > in Russian and Belarusian where the abbreviated nominative and > > genitive forms do differ. See my slides for more details. > > But abbreviations are the secondary problem. If you tell me how > > to handle the full forms I will help myself with the abbreviations. > > > > > > I must admit that initially I didn't see your slides. They made me change my > mind about your proposal. If these slides are so "powerful" then let me put the link again for those who have started reading only here: https://rluzynski.fedorapeople.org/slides/2017-01-27-DevConf.cz/GenitiveMonths-updated.pdf > I was quite convinced that the use of the nominative form in languages that > require the genitive form could be considered as an abbreviation and certainly > not as an error, and for this reason I thought that it wasn't worth doing this > change. No, this is an error caused by a software bug. Sometimes ignored, sometimes negle
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
20.04.2017 15:06 Fabio Tomat wrote: > > Just to make things more complicated, I wanted to inform you that in > Friulian, we use this literally translated form: > at the _DAY_ of _MONTH_ of the YEAR > > Moreover we use ordinal and cardinal day numbers, ordinal for the first day > of the month, and cardinal for the others (2-31) > Moreover we use singular for the first day, plural for the others... > So we really need this solution. > > example: > al 1ⁿ di mai dal 2017 > ai 15 di mai dal 2017 This is a different issue, independent on what I'd like to discuss here. But I assure you that I'm aware of it and I've already commented here: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=768192 https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10547#c2 Regards, Rafal ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
Thanks for your clarification, Tom. What you wrote is exactly what I meant. See also more comments below: 20.04.2017 13:05 Tom Tryfonidis wrote: > > I have a feeling that the use of nominative and genitive cases on the topic > is the main reason for misunderstandings. We need to focus whether we should > use %B for "full date" form or not, as this is the common factor for all > languages now. > > Greek translations (i assume other affected languages too) already use %B for > "full date" form, and a proposed solution to use %B for the "standalone" form > will create an unneeded regression for these languages. That's true: "%B" is used because there is no better format specifier. And this produces the nominative case because there is no way to generate the genitive case. The same in many other languages. > So, to make things easier for everyone, i agree that it would be better to > use %B for "full date" form and %OB for "standalone" form (the chances to use > the alternative %OB format for the affected languages are low and limited only > to specific use cases, e.g. GNOME Calendar uses standalone form for > Week/Month/Year views). Of course, there will be a (hopefully) limited number of applications which will need minor fixes and I'm already preparing patches for them even if it is too early: - to prove that the number of the applications is low, - to prove that the changes are minor, - to provide the fix for what I might potentially break, - to let the people see the result already. Regards, Rafal ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
I didn't consider the fact that there are very few applications where the standalone month name is used (e.g. calendars). Considering that, the problem of "breaking" some applications, that was my main concern about your proposal, could be solved without too many effort. Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions? Local Time: April 20, 2017 1:08 AM UTC Time: April 19, 2017 11:08 PM From: digitalfr...@lingonborough.com To: David Sapienza , gnome-i18n@gnome.org 19.04.2017 16:19 David Sapienza wrote: > In the Italian and French languages the nominative form is used in the full > context date too. I'm afraid we are running into misunderstanding here. If I used the terms "genitive" and "nominative" I used them for simplicity only. The fully correct terms should be "the form correct when displaying the month name in the full date context" and "the form correct when displaying the month name standalone". I'm aware that the correct form in Italian and French and many other languages is nominative and it will not be changed, no matter if you use "%B" or "%OB". An example of western European language where the genitive form is required but not handled correctly is Catalan: gener; febrer; març; abril - nominative forms when standalone, but: 20 de gener; 20 de febrer; 20 de març; 20 d’abril - there is currently no simple solution to display "de" vs. "d’" and complex solutions are not acceptable. Here I completely got your point. I mentioned Italian and French only because these are the two language I speak. By the way another language that needs the genitive form is Spanish (Castilian): "20 de enero", "20 de febrero", "20 de marzo", ... > In languages where the genitive form is used in full context, it is > often written in nominative form (as an abbreviation) I think I'm getting lost here: if a language requires a genitive form but a software offers only nominative form then it's a bug which I'm going to fix. Whether abbreviations should have the nominative/genitive variants is a separate question. But if you want to ask it then I'll answer: for a long time I also thought they don't need them because nominative/genitive cases are created by adding suffixes which are removed when making an abbreviation. Until I've found examples in Russian and Belarusian where the abbreviated nominative and genitive forms do differ. See my slides for more details. But abbreviations are the secondary problem. If you tell me how to handle the full forms I will help myself with the abbreviations. I must admit that initially I didn't see your slides. They made me change my mind about your proposal. I was quite convinced that the use of the nominative form in languages that require the genitive form could be considered as an abbreviation and certainly not as an error, and for this reason I thought that it wasn't worth doing this change. > and generally in these cases it can't be considered an error (it > won't break the application) whereas, using the genitive form for > the month name is certainly a bad thing (we can say that it'll > break the application). > > So I agree with fios: I think that it is better to use the "O" > modifier (%OB) for the genitive form (in the languages that uses > it) while we should keep the %B for the nominative form. OK. Again I don't agree here but I'm collecting opinions here and trying to explain my point of view. It does not mean that other people must agree with me and does not mean I will not change my mind in the future. Although at this moment I am strongly convinced to my opinion. Best regards, Rafal In conclusion, considering the very small size of the problems that this change will cause and the benefit that it will provide for the grammar side, I think you convinced me. Dear regards, David___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
Just to make things more complicated, I wanted to inform you that in Friulian, we use this literally translated form: at the _DAY_ of _MONTH_ of the YEAR Moreover we use ordinal and cardinal day numbers, ordinal for the first day of the month, and cardinal for the others (2-31) Moreover we use singular for the first day, plural for the others... So we really need this solution. example: al 1ⁿ di mai dal 2017 ai 15 di mai dal 2017 Regards, Fabio 2017-04-20 13:05 GMT+02:00 Tom Tryfonidis : > I have a feeling that the use of nominative and genitive cases on the > topic is the main reason for misunderstandings. We need to focus whether we > should use %B for "full date" form or not, as this is the common factor for > all languages now. > > Greek translations (i assume other affected languages too) already use %B > for "full date" form, and a proposed solution to use %B for the > "standalone" form will create an unneeded regression for these languages. > > So, to make things easier for everyone, i agree that it would be better to > use %B for "full date" form and %OB for "standalone" form (the chances to > use the alternative %OB format for the affected languages are low and > limited only to specific use cases, e.g. GNOME Calendar uses standalone > form for Week/Month/Year views). > > Regards, > > Tom > > > > > On 20 April 2017 at 03:25, Rafal Luzynski > wrote: > >> (BTW, here is the date formatted incorrectly because the bug is >> so common in Linux systems including web services:) >> >> Dnia 20 kwiecień 2017 o 01:39 Piotr Drąg >> napisał(a): >> > >> > >> > 2017-04-20 1:08 GMT+02:00 Rafal Luzynski > m>: >> > > 19.04.2017 16:19 David Sapienza >> wrote: >> > >> So I agree with fios: I think that it is better to use the "O" >> > >> modifier (%OB) for the genitive form (in the languages that uses >> > >> it) while we should keep the %B for the nominative form. >> > > >> > > OK. Again I don't agree here but I'm collecting opinions here and >> > > trying to explain my point of view. It does not mean that other >> > > people must agree with me and does not mean I will not change >> > > my mind in the future. Although at this moment I am strongly >> > > convinced to my opinion. >> > > >> > >> > But am I correct to assume that with your solution, languages which >> > don’t need different standalone and “format” forms would just always >> > return the nominative (standalone) form? I.e. basically nothing >> > changes for them? >> >> Yes, definitely, always nominative. They may not even have a separate >> genitive form. >> >> More precisely: this depends on what they put in their locale database >> [1] but if they don't need/don't want/don't have genitives they will >> not put them there. >> >> > For example, *with* your patches to glibc: >> > >> > Original string is “%B %d”, which in the en_US locale expands to “April >> 20”. >> > >> > Polish translation is “%d %B”, which correctly gives us “20 >> > kwietnia[genitive]“. >> >> Exactly like that. Also compare: >> >> "%OB %d" in en_US → "April 20" (because there is no other form in >> English) >> "%d %OB" in Polish → "20 kwiecień" (nominative - incorrect! but you get >> what you wanted) >> >> "%OB" is an alternative form, this means it's not intended to be >> normally used except in special situations like when the month >> name is displayed standalone. "%B" should automagically work >> correctly in most cases. >> >> > Translation to a hypothetical Western language that doesn’t employ >> > genitive in this context is also “%d %B”, which correctly gives us “20 >> > aprilo[nominative]“. >> >> You don't need a hypothetical language: that's how it will work in >> English, French, Italian, German, and many more. :-) >> >> > This is how every other platform works right now. >> >> Yes, this means BSD [2] and OS X [3] where glib2 and other GNOME >> libraries are intended to work correctly. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Rafal >> >> >> [1] https://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=tree;f=localedata/ >> locales;hb=HEAD >> [2] https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=strftime&sektion=3 >> [3] >> https://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/documentation/Dar >> win/Reference/ManPages/man3/strftime.3.html >> ___ >> gnome-i18n mailing list >> gnome-i18n@gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n >> > > > ___ > gnome-i18n mailing list > gnome-i18n@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n > > ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
I have a feeling that the use of nominative and genitive cases on the topic is the main reason for misunderstandings. We need to focus whether we should use %B for "full date" form or not, as this is the common factor for all languages now. Greek translations (i assume other affected languages too) already use %B for "full date" form, and a proposed solution to use %B for the "standalone" form will create an unneeded regression for these languages. So, to make things easier for everyone, i agree that it would be better to use %B for "full date" form and %OB for "standalone" form (the chances to use the alternative %OB format for the affected languages are low and limited only to specific use cases, e.g. GNOME Calendar uses standalone form for Week/Month/Year views). Regards, Tom On 20 April 2017 at 03:25, Rafal Luzynski wrote: > (BTW, here is the date formatted incorrectly because the bug is > so common in Linux systems including web services:) > > Dnia 20 kwiecień 2017 o 01:39 Piotr Drąg napisał(a): > > > > > > 2017-04-20 1:08 GMT+02:00 Rafal Luzynski >: > > > 19.04.2017 16:19 David Sapienza wrote: > > >> So I agree with fios: I think that it is better to use the "O" > > >> modifier (%OB) for the genitive form (in the languages that uses > > >> it) while we should keep the %B for the nominative form. > > > > > > OK. Again I don't agree here but I'm collecting opinions here and > > > trying to explain my point of view. It does not mean that other > > > people must agree with me and does not mean I will not change > > > my mind in the future. Although at this moment I am strongly > > > convinced to my opinion. > > > > > > > But am I correct to assume that with your solution, languages which > > don’t need different standalone and “format” forms would just always > > return the nominative (standalone) form? I.e. basically nothing > > changes for them? > > Yes, definitely, always nominative. They may not even have a separate > genitive form. > > More precisely: this depends on what they put in their locale database > [1] but if they don't need/don't want/don't have genitives they will > not put them there. > > > For example, *with* your patches to glibc: > > > > Original string is “%B %d”, which in the en_US locale expands to “April > 20”. > > > > Polish translation is “%d %B”, which correctly gives us “20 > > kwietnia[genitive]“. > > Exactly like that. Also compare: > > "%OB %d" in en_US → "April 20" (because there is no other form in English) > "%d %OB" in Polish → "20 kwiecień" (nominative - incorrect! but you get > what you wanted) > > "%OB" is an alternative form, this means it's not intended to be > normally used except in special situations like when the month > name is displayed standalone. "%B" should automagically work > correctly in most cases. > > > Translation to a hypothetical Western language that doesn’t employ > > genitive in this context is also “%d %B”, which correctly gives us “20 > > aprilo[nominative]“. > > You don't need a hypothetical language: that's how it will work in > English, French, Italian, German, and many more. :-) > > > This is how every other platform works right now. > > Yes, this means BSD [2] and OS X [3] where glib2 and other GNOME > libraries are intended to work correctly. > > Best regards, > > Rafal > > > [1] https://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=tree;f=localedata/ > locales;hb=HEAD > [2] https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=strftime&sektion=3 > [3] > https://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/documentation/Dar > win/Reference/ManPages/man3/strftime.3.html > ___ > gnome-i18n mailing list > gnome-i18n@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n > ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
(BTW, here is the date formatted incorrectly because the bug is so common in Linux systems including web services:) Dnia 20 kwiecień 2017 o 01:39 Piotr Drąg napisał(a): > > > 2017-04-20 1:08 GMT+02:00 Rafal Luzynski : > > 19.04.2017 16:19 David Sapienza wrote: > >> So I agree with fios: I think that it is better to use the "O" > >> modifier (%OB) for the genitive form (in the languages that uses > >> it) while we should keep the %B for the nominative form. > > > > OK. Again I don't agree here but I'm collecting opinions here and > > trying to explain my point of view. It does not mean that other > > people must agree with me and does not mean I will not change > > my mind in the future. Although at this moment I am strongly > > convinced to my opinion. > > > > But am I correct to assume that with your solution, languages which > don’t need different standalone and “format” forms would just always > return the nominative (standalone) form? I.e. basically nothing > changes for them? Yes, definitely, always nominative. They may not even have a separate genitive form. More precisely: this depends on what they put in their locale database [1] but if they don't need/don't want/don't have genitives they will not put them there. > For example, *with* your patches to glibc: > > Original string is “%B %d”, which in the en_US locale expands to “April 20”. > > Polish translation is “%d %B”, which correctly gives us “20 > kwietnia[genitive]“. Exactly like that. Also compare: "%OB %d" in en_US → "April 20" (because there is no other form in English) "%d %OB" in Polish → "20 kwiecień" (nominative - incorrect! but you get what you wanted) "%OB" is an alternative form, this means it's not intended to be normally used except in special situations like when the month name is displayed standalone. "%B" should automagically work correctly in most cases. > Translation to a hypothetical Western language that doesn’t employ > genitive in this context is also “%d %B”, which correctly gives us “20 > aprilo[nominative]“. You don't need a hypothetical language: that's how it will work in English, French, Italian, German, and many more. :-) > This is how every other platform works right now. Yes, this means BSD [2] and OS X [3] where glib2 and other GNOME libraries are intended to work correctly. Best regards, Rafal [1] https://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=tree;f=localedata/locales;hb=HEAD [2] https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=strftime&sektion=3 [3] https://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man3/strftime.3.html ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
2017-04-20 1:08 GMT+02:00 Rafal Luzynski : > 19.04.2017 16:19 David Sapienza wrote: >> So I agree with fios: I think that it is better to use the "O" >> modifier (%OB) for the genitive form (in the languages that uses >> it) while we should keep the %B for the nominative form. > > OK. Again I don't agree here but I'm collecting opinions here and > trying to explain my point of view. It does not mean that other > people must agree with me and does not mean I will not change > my mind in the future. Although at this moment I am strongly > convinced to my opinion. > But am I correct to assume that with your solution, languages which don’t need different standalone and “format” forms would just always return the nominative (standalone) form? I.e. basically nothing changes for them? For example, *with* your patches to glibc: Original string is “%B %d”, which in the en_US locale expands to “April 20”. Polish translation is “%d %B”, which correctly gives us “20 kwietnia[genitive]“. Translation to a hypothetical Western language that doesn’t employ genitive in this context is also “%d %B”, which correctly gives us “20 aprilo[nominative]“. This is how every other platform works right now. Best regards, -- Piotr Drąg https://piotrdrag.fedorapeople.org ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
19.04.2017 16:19 David Sapienza wrote: > In the Italian and French languages the nominative form is used in the full > context date too. I'm afraid we are running into misunderstanding here. If I used the terms "genitive" and "nominative" I used them for simplicity only. The fully correct terms should be "the form correct when displaying the month name in the full date context" and "the form correct when displaying the month name standalone". I'm aware that the correct form in Italian and French and many other languages is nominative and it will not be changed, no matter if you use "%B" or "%OB". An example of western European language where the genitive form is required but not handled correctly is Catalan: gener; febrer; març; abril - nominative forms when standalone, but: 20 de gener; 20 de febrer; 20 de març; 20 d’abril - there is currently no simple solution to display "de" vs. "d’" and complex solutions are not acceptable. > In languages where the genitive form is used in full context, it is > often written in nominative form (as an abbreviation) I think I'm getting lost here: if a language requires a genitive form but a software offers only nominative form then it's a bug which I'm going to fix. Whether abbreviations should have the nominative/genitive variants is a separate question. But if you want to ask it then I'll answer: for a long time I also thought they don't need them because nominative/genitive cases are created by adding suffixes which are removed when making an abbreviation. Until I've found examples in Russian and Belarusian where the abbreviated nominative and genitive forms do differ. See my slides for more details. But abbreviations are the secondary problem. If you tell me how to handle the full forms I will help myself with the abbreviations. > and generally in these cases it can't be considered an error (it > won't break the application) whereas, using the genitive form for > the month name is certainly a bad thing (we can say that it'll > break the application). > > So I agree with fios: I think that it is better to use the "O" > modifier (%OB) for the genitive form (in the languages that uses > it) while we should keep the %B for the nominative form. OK. Again I don't agree here but I'm collecting opinions here and trying to explain my point of view. It does not mean that other people must agree with me and does not mean I will not change my mind in the future. Although at this moment I am strongly convinced to my opinion. Best regards, Rafal ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
Hello, Thank you for your response. Your feedback will be valuable because it seems to me you are the potential actual user of this feature. Would you be able to test my copr repository [1] and see how it works in your language, what started working correctly out of the box and what works worse? Of course, security must be taken into account: preferably test it on a separate virtual machine. Or even on a live DVD. :-) Some comments below: 19.04.2017 11:06 Fòram na Gàidhlig wrote: > > From my language's point of view. The CLDR approach is what looks the > most sensible. I think I agree with you because I'm trying to follow CLDR but which approach did you mean here? > Displaying "of April" as a standalone date would look > very weird in my language, and having the 'genitive' form displayed as > nominative would be the lesser of two evils. Of course using genitive where nominative is required is definitely bad. But do you mean that you'd prefer %OB to be genitive and %B to be nominative? Would you prefer as a translator to rework all date formats which display day and month, like "%d %B", to "%d %OB" or would you prefer to rework only those which display month standalone? Which are more frequent? BTW, CLDR does not say anything about nl_langinfo() nor strftime(). Unfortunately, there is no solution which will automagically display the correct form whenever it finds %B. > For example: > > June = An t-Ògmhios I'll use this example to explain that this would be printed by "%OB". > 18 June = 18mh dhen Ògmhios And this one would need "%dmh %B". > So, depending on how it's coded, that would give us "dhen Ògmhios" or > "mh dhen Ògmhios" if the 'genitive' was used as a standalone date. Of course, displaying genitive where nominative is requires is not what I want. Some applications would need fixes but probably this would be less changes than the opposite solution. I will appreciate if you point me to a specific application which will start displaying dates incorrectly. I'm aware of about 5 such applications already. For some of them I've prepared patches already. Also, if possible, I'll appreciate even more if you could be able to compare this with the solutions in OS X and BSD. Unfortunately, I can tell already that FreeBSD does not support gd_GB. Regards, Rafal [1] https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/rluzynski/genitive/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
I can only agree on this. Serbian, as well as other Slavic/Eastern European
languages use genitive and it would be great to inplement it in glibc.
Miloš
19.04.2017. 16.46, "Piotr Drąg" је написао/ла:
2017-04-19 0:19 GMT+02:00 Rafal Luzynski :
> Hello,
>
> I was told that GNOME i18n is the right place to discuss this issue
> because it gathers translators from more languages than any other
> place in this part of the net. The problem has been reported to GNOME
> bugzilla as bug 749206 [1] but in fact it's not a GNOME bug but glibc
> bug. [2]
>
> What is the issue: in many languages, mostly from eastern Europe,
> including my native language, a correct grammatical form of the month
> name when used in the full date context is genitive. A literal
> translation to English applying the same rule would be "18 of April".
> Also we still need the nominative case when the month name appears
> standalone (for example sometimes we just want to say "April").
>
> The proposed solution is to change strftime() function and anything
> that is backed by or compatible with strftime(): in glib2 the
> functions are g_date_time_format() and g_date_strftime(). These
> functions besides "%B" (full month name) should start supporting
> "%OB" (alternative month name). Also nl_langinfo() function would
> be modified: as now MON_1, MON_2, ..., MON_12 return the data to
> be used as the result of "%B" format specifiers the new set of
> constants ALTMON_1, ALTMON_2, ..., ALTMON_12 would be introduced
> to provide the data for "%OB" format specifier.
>
> This exact solution:
>
> - has been implemented in *BSD systems (FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc.) in
> 1990s;
> - is also supported in Apple systems (OS X and iOS) except exposing
> ALTMON_n constants in nl_langinfo();
> - has been accepted by POSIX as the future change of the
> specification but has not yet released it. [3]
>
> Now the controversial part: in all those solutions nl_langinfo(MON_n)
> and strftime("%B") return the genitive case of the month name and
> the newly introduced nl_langinfo(ALTMON_n) and strftime("%OB") return
> the nominative form. It's controversial because now in Linux
> nl_langinfo(MON_n) and strftime("%B") return the nominative case
> while the other case is simply not supported. This would require
> somehow incompatible change. (Note: the backward compatibility feature
> can be introduced.)
>
> Also it should be emphasized that "genitive and nominative" is
> a little unprecise misleading. Correctly it should be named "the
> correct form when using the month in the full date context, together
> with the day number" vs. "standalone, without the day number".
> For example, the languages which have the genitive form but don't
> use it in the full date context would use their own proper form
> instead.
>
> Why did BSD, Apple, and POSIX choose that counterintuitive approach?
> One should make a bigger survey before answering this question but
> I believe that it's because the date formats are more often used to
> format the date with the day of the month number than to format the
> month name standalone. This change would fix all applications which
> display the dates without any change in their source code so I think
> it is good even if it would break those few applications which
> display the month names standalone. By "break" I mean "they would
> start displaying the month names in an incorrect form (similarly
> as all other applications display the month names incorrectly now)".
>
> Note that a similar approach has been chosen by ICU and CLDR with
> their own date formats: represents the month name in a genitive
> case while is used when they need a nominative case explicitly.
>
> glibc maintainers hesitate to accept this solution. I believe they
> need some feedback from the people who actually are going to use this
> feature. So far they agreed [4] to accept this solution but only if
> it is documented as the new experimental feature and if it is not
> yet documented which of "%B" and "%OB" is genitive (full date format)
> and which is nominative (standalone). The idea was that it should
> be decided by the language communities which is which. Also sometimes
> they suggest that BSD implementation is wrong and should be switched.
>
> So, language communities, what is your opinion about it?
>
> GNOME is a multiplatform project, it is intended to work correctly
> on Linux but also Windows, OS X, BSD and many other platforms. I think
> it will be easier for the application developers if Linux follows
> other platforms as well as the future POSIX specification.
>
> You may be also interested in seeing my slides about the issue: [5]
>
I just wanted to say that I fully agree with your proposed solution.
It’s an important fix that every other platform (be it proprietary,
like Windows or macOS, or free, like KDE or *BSDs) already have.
Best regards,
--
Piotr Drąg
https://piotrdrag.fedorapeople.org
___
gnome
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
2017-04-19 0:19 GMT+02:00 Rafal Luzynski :
> Hello,
>
> I was told that GNOME i18n is the right place to discuss this issue
> because it gathers translators from more languages than any other
> place in this part of the net. The problem has been reported to GNOME
> bugzilla as bug 749206 [1] but in fact it's not a GNOME bug but glibc
> bug. [2]
>
> What is the issue: in many languages, mostly from eastern Europe,
> including my native language, a correct grammatical form of the month
> name when used in the full date context is genitive. A literal
> translation to English applying the same rule would be "18 of April".
> Also we still need the nominative case when the month name appears
> standalone (for example sometimes we just want to say "April").
>
> The proposed solution is to change strftime() function and anything
> that is backed by or compatible with strftime(): in glib2 the
> functions are g_date_time_format() and g_date_strftime(). These
> functions besides "%B" (full month name) should start supporting
> "%OB" (alternative month name). Also nl_langinfo() function would
> be modified: as now MON_1, MON_2, ..., MON_12 return the data to
> be used as the result of "%B" format specifiers the new set of
> constants ALTMON_1, ALTMON_2, ..., ALTMON_12 would be introduced
> to provide the data for "%OB" format specifier.
>
> This exact solution:
>
> - has been implemented in *BSD systems (FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc.) in
> 1990s;
> - is also supported in Apple systems (OS X and iOS) except exposing
> ALTMON_n constants in nl_langinfo();
> - has been accepted by POSIX as the future change of the
> specification but has not yet released it. [3]
>
> Now the controversial part: in all those solutions nl_langinfo(MON_n)
> and strftime("%B") return the genitive case of the month name and
> the newly introduced nl_langinfo(ALTMON_n) and strftime("%OB") return
> the nominative form. It's controversial because now in Linux
> nl_langinfo(MON_n) and strftime("%B") return the nominative case
> while the other case is simply not supported. This would require
> somehow incompatible change. (Note: the backward compatibility feature
> can be introduced.)
>
> Also it should be emphasized that "genitive and nominative" is
> a little unprecise misleading. Correctly it should be named "the
> correct form when using the month in the full date context, together
> with the day number" vs. "standalone, without the day number".
> For example, the languages which have the genitive form but don't
> use it in the full date context would use their own proper form
> instead.
>
> Why did BSD, Apple, and POSIX choose that counterintuitive approach?
> One should make a bigger survey before answering this question but
> I believe that it's because the date formats are more often used to
> format the date with the day of the month number than to format the
> month name standalone. This change would fix all applications which
> display the dates without any change in their source code so I think
> it is good even if it would break those few applications which
> display the month names standalone. By "break" I mean "they would
> start displaying the month names in an incorrect form (similarly
> as all other applications display the month names incorrectly now)".
>
> Note that a similar approach has been chosen by ICU and CLDR with
> their own date formats: represents the month name in a genitive
> case while is used when they need a nominative case explicitly.
>
> glibc maintainers hesitate to accept this solution. I believe they
> need some feedback from the people who actually are going to use this
> feature. So far they agreed [4] to accept this solution but only if
> it is documented as the new experimental feature and if it is not
> yet documented which of "%B" and "%OB" is genitive (full date format)
> and which is nominative (standalone). The idea was that it should
> be decided by the language communities which is which. Also sometimes
> they suggest that BSD implementation is wrong and should be switched.
>
> So, language communities, what is your opinion about it?
>
> GNOME is a multiplatform project, it is intended to work correctly
> on Linux but also Windows, OS X, BSD and many other platforms. I think
> it will be easier for the application developers if Linux follows
> other platforms as well as the future POSIX specification.
>
> You may be also interested in seeing my slides about the issue: [5]
>
I just wanted to say that I fully agree with your proposed solution.
It’s an important fix that every other platform (be it proprietary,
like Windows or macOS, or free, like KDE or *BSDs) already have.
Best regards,
--
Piotr Drąg
https://piotrdrag.fedorapeople.org
___
gnome-i18n mailing list
gnome-i18n@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
In the Italian and French languages the nominative form is used in the full
context date too.
In languages where the genitive form is used in full context, it is often
written in nominative form (as an abbreviation) and generally in these cases it
can't be considered an error (it won't break the application) whereas, using
the genitive form for the month name is certainly a bad thing (we can say that
it'll break the application).
So I agree with fios: I think that it is better to use the "O" modifier (%OB)
for the genitive form (in the languages that uses it) while we should keep the
%B for the nominative form.
David
Original Message
On 19 apr 2017, 11:06, Fòram na Gàidhlig wrote:
From my language's point of view. The CLDR approach is what looks the
most sensible. Displaying "of April" as a standalone date would look
very weird in my language, and having the 'genitive' form displayed as
nominative would be the lesser of two evils.
For example:
June = An t-Ògmhios
18 June = 18mh dhen Ògmhios
So, depending on how it's coded, that would give us "dhen Ògmhios" or
"mh dhen Ògmhios" if the 'genitive' was used as a standalone date.
Sgrìobh Rafal Luzynski na leanas 18/04/2017 aig 23:19:
> Hello,
>
> I was told that GNOME i18n is the right place to discuss this issue
> because it gathers translators from more languages than any other
> place in this part of the net. The problem has been reported to GNOME
> bugzilla as bug 749206 [1] but in fact it's not a GNOME bug but glibc
> bug. [2]
>
> What is the issue: in many languages, mostly from eastern Europe,
> including my native language, a correct grammatical form of the month
> name when used in the full date context is genitive. A literal
> translation to English applying the same rule would be "18 of April".
> Also we still need the nominative case when the month name appears
> standalone (for example sometimes we just want to say "April").
>
> The proposed solution is to change strftime() function and anything
> that is backed by or compatible with strftime(): in glib2 the
> functions are g_date_time_format() and g_date_strftime(). These
> functions besides "%B" (full month name) should start supporting
> "%OB" (alternative month name). Also nl_langinfo() function would
> be modified: as now MON_1, MON_2, ..., MON_12 return the data to
> be used as the result of "%B" format specifiers the new set of
> constants ALTMON_1, ALTMON_2, ..., ALTMON_12 would be introduced
> to provide the data for "%OB" format specifier.
>
> This exact solution:
>
> - has been implemented in *BSD systems (FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc.) in
> 1990s;
> - is also supported in Apple systems (OS X and iOS) except exposing
> ALTMON_n constants in nl_langinfo();
> - has been accepted by POSIX as the future change of the
> specification but has not yet released it. [3]
>
> Now the controversial part: in all those solutions nl_langinfo(MON_n)
> and strftime("%B") return the genitive case of the month name and
> the newly introduced nl_langinfo(ALTMON_n) and strftime("%OB") return
> the nominative form. It's controversial because now in Linux
> nl_langinfo(MON_n) and strftime("%B") return the nominative case
> while the other case is simply not supported. This would require
> somehow incompatible change. (Note: the backward compatibility feature
> can be introduced.)
>
> Also it should be emphasized that "genitive and nominative" is
> a little unprecise misleading. Correctly it should be named "the
> correct form when using the month in the full date context, together
> with the day number" vs. "standalone, without the day number".
> For example, the languages which have the genitive form but don't
> use it in the full date context would use their own proper form
> instead.
>
> Why did BSD, Apple, and POSIX choose that counterintuitive approach?
> One should make a bigger survey before answering this question but
> I believe that it's because the date formats are more often used to
> format the date with the day of the month number than to format the
> month name standalone. This change would fix all applications which
> display the dates without any change in their source code so I think
> it is good even if it would break those few applications which
> display the month names standalone. By "break" I mean "they would
> start displaying the month names in an incorrect form (similarly
> as all other applications display the month names incorrectly now)".
>
> Note that a similar approach has been chosen by ICU and CLDR with
> their own date formats: represents the month name in a genitive
> case while is used when they need a nominative case explicitly.
>
> glibc maintainers hesitate to accept this solution. I believe they
> need some feedback from the people who actually are going to use this
> feature. So far they agreed [4] to accept this solution but only if
> it is documented as the new experimental feature and if it is not
> yet documented which of "%B" and "
Re: Date Format with month names in genitive case - your opinions?
>From my language's point of view. The CLDR approach is what looks the
most sensible. Displaying "of April" as a standalone date would look
very weird in my language, and having the 'genitive' form displayed as
nominative would be the lesser of two evils.
For example:
June = An t-Ògmhios
18 June = 18mh dhen Ògmhios
So, depending on how it's coded, that would give us "dhen Ògmhios" or
"mh dhen Ògmhios" if the 'genitive' was used as a standalone date.
Sgrìobh Rafal Luzynski na leanas 18/04/2017 aig 23:19:
> Hello,
>
> I was told that GNOME i18n is the right place to discuss this issue
> because it gathers translators from more languages than any other
> place in this part of the net. The problem has been reported to GNOME
> bugzilla as bug 749206 [1] but in fact it's not a GNOME bug but glibc
> bug. [2]
>
> What is the issue: in many languages, mostly from eastern Europe,
> including my native language, a correct grammatical form of the month
> name when used in the full date context is genitive. A literal
> translation to English applying the same rule would be "18 of April".
> Also we still need the nominative case when the month name appears
> standalone (for example sometimes we just want to say "April").
>
> The proposed solution is to change strftime() function and anything
> that is backed by or compatible with strftime(): in glib2 the
> functions are g_date_time_format() and g_date_strftime(). These
> functions besides "%B" (full month name) should start supporting
> "%OB" (alternative month name). Also nl_langinfo() function would
> be modified: as now MON_1, MON_2, ..., MON_12 return the data to
> be used as the result of "%B" format specifiers the new set of
> constants ALTMON_1, ALTMON_2, ..., ALTMON_12 would be introduced
> to provide the data for "%OB" format specifier.
>
> This exact solution:
>
> - has been implemented in *BSD systems (FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc.) in
> 1990s;
> - is also supported in Apple systems (OS X and iOS) except exposing
> ALTMON_n constants in nl_langinfo();
> - has been accepted by POSIX as the future change of the
> specification but has not yet released it. [3]
>
> Now the controversial part: in all those solutions nl_langinfo(MON_n)
> and strftime("%B") return the genitive case of the month name and
> the newly introduced nl_langinfo(ALTMON_n) and strftime("%OB") return
> the nominative form. It's controversial because now in Linux
> nl_langinfo(MON_n) and strftime("%B") return the nominative case
> while the other case is simply not supported. This would require
> somehow incompatible change. (Note: the backward compatibility feature
> can be introduced.)
>
> Also it should be emphasized that "genitive and nominative" is
> a little unprecise misleading. Correctly it should be named "the
> correct form when using the month in the full date context, together
> with the day number" vs. "standalone, without the day number".
> For example, the languages which have the genitive form but don't
> use it in the full date context would use their own proper form
> instead.
>
> Why did BSD, Apple, and POSIX choose that counterintuitive approach?
> One should make a bigger survey before answering this question but
> I believe that it's because the date formats are more often used to
> format the date with the day of the month number than to format the
> month name standalone. This change would fix all applications which
> display the dates without any change in their source code so I think
> it is good even if it would break those few applications which
> display the month names standalone. By "break" I mean "they would
> start displaying the month names in an incorrect form (similarly
> as all other applications display the month names incorrectly now)".
>
> Note that a similar approach has been chosen by ICU and CLDR with
> their own date formats: represents the month name in a genitive
> case while is used when they need a nominative case explicitly.
>
> glibc maintainers hesitate to accept this solution. I believe they
> need some feedback from the people who actually are going to use this
> feature. So far they agreed [4] to accept this solution but only if
> it is documented as the new experimental feature and if it is not
> yet documented which of "%B" and "%OB" is genitive (full date format)
> and which is nominative (standalone). The idea was that it should
> be decided by the language communities which is which. Also sometimes
> they suggest that BSD implementation is wrong and should be switched.
>
> So, language communities, what is your opinion about it?
>
> GNOME is a multiplatform project, it is intended to work correctly
> on Linux but also Windows, OS X, BSD and many other platforms. I think
> it will be easier for the application developers if Linux follows
> other platforms as well as the future POSIX specification.
>
> You may be also interested in seeing my slides about the issue: [5]
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rafal
>
>
> [1]
