RE: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Quoting otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED]: One of them was already brought forth and shot down which was the Donor in the birth of Mary fresco. the red and white outfit Though I still think the gold thingies are more of a tassel then a dag. The other one I think I did not save the url because I think it was a Salome character and I was not interested in the period at the time. It may have been dags and not gores. So my apologies for not being able to produce the picture to help in this matter. I usually save things for myself as I know that I can not teach worth anything and my organizational skills only make sense to me. De That's ok. I've seen a couple too -- but not the birth of Mary fresco that's been under discussion. One of this *is* a piece of a mural (and I doubt if I could find it now if I tried!) but I can't tell if the woman's dress has contrasting gores up the side, or if it's a giorna (? -- you know the overdress like you see in Ghirlandaio's paintings) that's belted around the body. The ladies are in the background and IIRC they're seated. Thanks! Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
I have seen in paintings where on one side of the gown the seam is not sewn together to expose the underskirt, sometime it appears that a purse is worn under the top skirt and the opening allows access. Mostly on German 1400s styles I have seen the side opening. I think that the gores of a different colour are feasible as many people of that era seemed to be frugal. Now maybe they would more likely to have done the use every scrap with the kid's outfits. Example of patchwork sleeves http://www.renaissancewoman.net/realmofvenus/wardrobe/Licinio1524.JPG But just observing the different styles found in Bergamo, the possibility of the different colour gores seems likely even for older women. Unfortunately there wasn't enough artist to paint every single dress of all the eras. :P De -Original Message- Quoting otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED]: One of them was already brought forth and shot down which was the Donor in the birth of Mary fresco. the red and white outfit Though I still think the gold thingies are more of a tassel then a dag. The other one I think I did not save the url because I think it was a Salome character and I was not interested in the period at the time. It may have been dags and not gores. So my apologies for not being able to produce the picture to help in this matter. I usually save things for myself as I know that I can not teach worth anything and my organizational skills only make sense to me. De That's ok. I've seen a couple too -- but not the birth of Mary fresco that's been under discussion. One of this *is* a piece of a mural (and I doubt if I could find it now if I tried!) but I can't tell if the woman's dress has contrasting gores up the side, or if it's a giorna (? -- you know the overdress like you see in Ghirlandaio's paintings) that's belted around the body. The ladies are in the background and IIRC they're seated. Thanks! Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
One of them was already brought forth and shot down which was the Donor in the birth of Mary fresco. the red and white outfit Though I still think the gold thingies are more of a tassel then a dag. The other one I think I did not save the url because I think it was a Salome character and I was not interested in the period at the time. It may have been dags and not gores. So my apologies for not being able to produce the picture to help in this matter. I usually save things for myself as I know that I can not teach worth anything and my organizational skills only make sense to me. De -Original Message- Catching up on old email From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] *snip* I have seen at least two Italian dresses that look as if they have different colored gores from the rest of the dress but not in the style that is on the Chimera site. Can you point me in the direction of those Italian Gowns? Thanks, Susan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Catching up on old email From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] *snip* I have seen at least two Italian dresses that look as if they have different colored gores from the rest of the dress but not in the style that is on the Chimera site. Can you point me in the direction of those Italian Gowns? Thanks, Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: Sewing speeds was Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt inlateMiddleages???
I didn't have a chance to look at it last night, Michaela, but it is very, very cool! ;o) I don't think I've seen a costume of yours yet that doesn't make my jaw just drop! I don't think you're afraid to try anything! I wouldn't worry about discussing the rest of it overly much--wouldn't be the first time we discussed a recent movie's costumes, but then, since I'm not a movie/theatre/costume fiend, that's the part of this list I find the most enlightening and fascinating. --Sue, in snowy/drippy Montana... - Original Message - From: michaela [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:49 AM Subject: Re: Sewing speeds was Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt inlateMiddleages??? http://costumes.glittersweet.com/other/catwoman.htm http://pulpspace.net.nz/joomla/index.php?option=com_exposeItemid=30 Oh my goodness, this looks brilliant! And you wear it well. Thank you:) And to keep it on h-cost topic... the corset is remarkably simialr ot the 1900 corset in Corsets and Crinolines by Waugh. The changes are: shortening the basque/hip panels, cutting it to underbust and (work CF to CB) combining the first and second body panels and the third and fourth. It's the most comfortable corset I have and I suspect it's due to the underbust and the basques. My waist to hip is atm 71cm:98cm and I can get a rather narrow waist so I think the shaping helps with that but without compressing my ribs. Michaela de Bruce http://glittersweet.com (no idea how to work the rest of the costume into h-cost territory;) Unless the 1990s are now retro enough...) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: Sewing speeds was Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in lateMiddleages???
http://costumes.glittersweet.com/other/catwoman.htm http://pulpspace.net.nz/joomla/index.php?option=com_exposeItemid=30 Oh my goodness, this looks brilliant! And you wear it well. Thank you:) And to keep it on h-cost topic... the corset is remarkably simialr ot the 1900 corset in Corsets and Crinolines by Waugh. The changes are: shortening the basque/hip panels, cutting it to underbust and (work CF to CB) combining the first and second body panels and the third and fourth. It's the most comfortable corset I have and I suspect it's due to the underbust and the basques. My waist to hip is atm 71cm:98cm and I can get a rather narrow waist so I think the shaping helps with that but without compressing my ribs. Michaela de Bruce http://glittersweet.com (no idea how to work the rest of the costume into h-cost territory;) Unless the 1990s are now retro enough...) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: Sewing speeds was Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Glad to hear someone else that suffers with RA and sews understands the flare ups and recovery periods. Lady Von michaela [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have RA too and this weekend overdid the sewing a bit too much to help out a dance school. I took about 8 200mg Ibuprofen a day as well as up to 4mg prednisone (usually only on one) on top of my regular medication (including 1000mg of Naprosen)* and am still in terrific pain. The sewing trggered a massive inflamatory response (from toes to jaw with extra pain in those areas overused.) Anyway, just saying it's not just an added burden for time but for time taken to recover. That said I learnt I have indeed sped up and could be fast enough for industry standards, but couldn't keep that speed up for more than a day even with all the above precautions. h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Lady Von http://www.wildthangstreasures.com - Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Hey, we all have our individual way of sewing. When I think of a garment sewing time I think about everything involved from the laying out of the pattern to the last detail. I thought the garment in question was gorgeous not thinking about the authenticity or anything else, just first impression. I use a regular ol sewing machine and such and I don't sew on a large scale. Those who do are to be complimented for their ability to do such and create beautiful authentic or just Ren garb. Smile...you will feel better! Lady Von Sue Clemenger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Absolutely! I may have been making incorrect assumptions about the construction of this dress, but the website wasn't exactly forthcoming with details! ;o) I've not really ever bought historically-themed clothing or costumes, as I usually make my own, but I have definitely purchased my share of off-the-rack clothing over the years, and have looked at some items that friends have purchased. There's an awfully wide range of construction options out there, and certainly, an item that was more carefully constructed would be worthy of a higher asking price. I just don't assume the reverse, especially given that the website didn't provide many details, which I've seen a number of others do, especially when they're aiming at a reenactor's market, in which authentic construction is a definite selling point for some folks. --Sue - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad To: Historical Costume Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? I sew for a living (among other things) and I don't like to rush myself too much. I certainly don't sew fast by commercial industrial standards. That would be too stressful and not at all enjoyable. I was thinking of the dress being lined, faced, etc, when I said it would probably take me a couple days. And I don't sew and serge at the same time. I prefer to sew my seams and then serge them, in case I have to take something out. I realize sewing and serging in one step cuts out a lot of extra time. SYlrog On Nov 13, 2006, at 7:39 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: I wasn't including cutting time in that estimate--I was thinking in more industrial/mass quantity terms. If you're doing a whole bunch of that sort of thing all at once, you can get really fast at it, and the type of machine you have can greatly assist in that. The website didn't say anything, that I recall, about types of seams used, or finishings on the insides, outside of the mention of the dress being half-lined. So I more or less assumed that it was serged or something similar. More labor-intensive, detail-oriented choices would of course take more time! And I certainly wouldn't want anyone doing this sort of work to under-pay themselves! It's just that I've only ever done sewing as either a strictly recreational thing, or in an industrial setting, so my costuming experiences may likely differ from other people, who are doing it on a more of a cottage industry scale. --Sue - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad To: Historical Costume Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? You must sew awfully fast. I've been sewing most all my life and I can see that taking me a couple days, including cutting of course, so that would bring my price, just for labor, up to $400. I don' think the asking price is unreasonable. My garments are quite well made, though, and fully lined if necessary. Sylrog On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:51 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: With a serger? Couple of hours, tops. Of course, I could build a complete tent in a couple of hours, when I did it for a living. Now I deal with maps and data bases and school buses, thank goodness, and get to do my sewing for fun. --Sue in Montana, not Susan in TN ;o) - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad To: Historical Costume Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad : I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: Sewing speeds was Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middleages???
Wow! Great job and you wear it well! Lady Von Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, michaela wrote: http://costumes.glittersweet.com/other/catwoman.htm http://pulpspace.net.nz/joomla/index.php?option=com_exposeItemid=30 Oh my goodness, this looks brilliant! And you wear it well. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
I guess it's all a matter of whose ox (or gown) gets gored... (Sorry; the pun fairy made me do it...) On Nov 13, 2006, at 4:59 PM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote: Now I feel really bad about posting this gores question. The picture just kind of caught my eye, as I'd heard some people telling me that contrasting gores were accurate in the middle ages - a fact that I wasn't very sure of. So I just wanted to ask. It wasn't meant to doubt the lady's work at all. Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
bad...naughty...have some chocolate. :) -Original Message- I guess it's all a matter of whose ox (or gown) gets gored... (Sorry; the pun fairy made me do it...) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
At 03:13 13/11/2006, you wrote: I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. On Nov 12, 2006, at 7:28 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How much is 350 pounds? $700 USD -- approximately This is not an unusual price for a gown of this period, especially if it includes fabric. Prices here are very much higher that in the U.S. My American friends are often surprised at the prices I charge, and I am never without work. Incidentally, I believe this is one of her fantasy frocks, rather than an authentic one, but that is only a guess as I have never actually seen any of her clothes or accessories. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
I found the dress in thier periods gallery under The Medieval Age of Chivalry 1100 -1485. I have not found the wording Medieval inspired anywhere with this dress. Perhaps they have documentation for the coloured gores. I have seen at least two Italian dresses that look as if they have different colored gores from the rest of the dress but not in the style that is on the Chimera site. I have emailed them to inquire if they may have a source for the different colored gores. I found the Buckles and clasps. One needs to go to the haberdashery and up in the corner in the search will take you to the page. De - Original Message - In defence of this company in particular the example we've been discussing is in their custom made section, so presumably it's a customer's design not their own. Their readymade stuff looks fairly good as does most of their custom made stuff, and they do describe the fantasy stuff as 'medieval inspired' or '15th century inspired' etc. http://chimera-costumes.co.uk/ Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Thanks. I wondered why I didn't know the meaning of godet because it looked like a gore to me. It was in one of my patterns and confusing. Voncile Adele de Maisieres [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Voncile W. Dudley wrote: Aren't gores the ones that start at the waist and godets the ones that start somewhere around the thigh? Anyone know the difference, if any? Well, SCA-types tend to call them gores and modern dressmakers tend to call them godets and use gore to refer to a trapezoidal panel. -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Voncile W. Dudley wrote: Aren't gores the ones that start at the waist and godets the ones that start somewhere around the thigh? Anyone know the difference, if any? Lady Von In my years in the professional costume industry, I have generally heard godet used to refer to a triangular insert and gore for full-length shaped sections of a garment--waist to hem for a gored skirt, for example. I haven't really heard gore used to refer to the sections of a princess-line gown, though. Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
WELL ! ! ! While I am not all together historically accurate, I do provide a very close garment for those who cannot or do not want to spend a small forturne in order to be able to participate in the Ren Faires. My garments are well made and with good fabric. I would be most happy to special make a garment of this nature for a lot less $. Lady Von Sue Clemenger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I wouldn't touch it if it were mailed to me, free. And sure not for several hundred dollars. I've seen some seriously tacky [EMAIL PROTECTED] aimed at the non-sewing SCA crowd (and, I assume at other non-sewing reenactors/hobbyists of relatively same time frame and required authenticity level), and that particular gown's right in there with the please, god, make it go away stuff IMHO, of course. --Sue, needing to go fondle some of her wool flannels just to take the taint away ;o) - Original Message - From: Elizabeth Walpole To: Historical Costume Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Well, except that in reality what costs $1 in the USA costs £1 in the UK. So from the UK seller's point of view it would be a more accurate reflection of their how much they are earning (in terms of paying the bills, keeping food on the table etc.) if you just change the dollar symbol to a pounds symbol. Now change your estimate to $350 (or even better look at more local websites) and see if it's still worth it. Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/ - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad To: Historical Costume Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. On Nov 12, 2006, at 7:28 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad : How much is 350 pounds? $700 USD -- approximately susan - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
WOW ! !! I use a regular machine and it takes me a while to finish a beautiful garment of this nature. The gown can be constructed using less expensive but good quality fabric. It would take that long to just lay and cut the pattern (or least for me) but then I have Rheumatoid Arthritis and take frequent breaks but still if I worked straight through it would take much longer than 2 hours. That is fantastic sewing. I love to sew the Ren garb but I also provide garments for today's fashion depending on the customer. Anyway, not all of us who sew for others provide [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just my 2 cents worth. Lady Von Sue Clemenger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With a serger? Couple of hours, tops. Of course, I could build a complete tent in a couple of hours, when I did it for a living. Now I deal with maps and data bases and school buses, thank goodness, and get to do my sewing for fun. --Sue in Montana, not Susan in TN ;o) - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad To: Historical Costume Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad : I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Lady Von http://www.wildthangstreasures.com - Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
Elizabeth Walpole wrote: In defence of this company in particular the example we've been discussing is in their custom made section, so presumably it's a customer's design not their own. Their readymade stuff looks fairly good as does most of their custom made stuff, and they do describe the fantasy stuff as 'medieval inspired' or '15th century inspired' etc. http://chimera-costumes.co.uk/ Elizabeth Okay I couldn't resist and looked it up. Actually, this one (if it's the right one I'm looking at) says it's made to order in standard sizes, so it's not custom. And IMHO it's ugly, though not as bad as some have said. I know many people who would love it -- though they are not people who care much about accuracy. There are some really nice pieces on this site, so I would imagine these people are making a living making people what they want to buy, which is all right with me. I do wish they would say that it's not strictly accurate, which they do on some of their pieces. Gail Finke ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
You must sew awfully fast. I've been sewing most all my life and I can see that taking me a couple days, including cutting of course, so that would bring my price, just for labor, up to $400.I don' think the asking price is unreasonable. My garments are quite well made, though, and fully lined if necessary. Sylrog On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:51 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: With a serger? Couple of hours, tops. Of course, I could build a complete tent in a couple of hours, when I did it for a living. Now I deal with maps and data bases and school buses, thank goodness, and get to do my sewing for fun. --Sue in Montana, not Susan in TN ;o) - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Having just helped a young lady with her first sewing project that was basically this gown in one color. It took her three sewing sessions of about two hours each, one session that was to cut out and fit the gown and I took on the hem and lacing holes by machine (two hours) so she could wear it for Halloween. Now, if it had been me sewing it all, it would have taken two-three hours to sew. I would have charged about $75-100 in labor. Usually my sewing goes fast, it's when I make a mistake and have to tear something out and redo it that eats up my time. But I'm also rather compulsive when I'm working a project, working long hours and not stoping for meals if I can help it until it's done. alex On 11/13/06, Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You must sew awfully fast. I've been sewing most all my life and I can see that taking me a couple days, including cutting of course, so that would bring my price, just for labor, up to $400.I don' think the asking price is unreasonable. My garments are quite well made, though, and fully lined if necessary. Sylrog On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:51 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: With a serger? Couple of hours, tops. Of course, I could build a complete tent in a couple of hours, when I did it for a living. Now I deal with maps and data bases and school buses, thank goodness, and get to do my sewing for fun. --Sue in Montana, not Susan in TN ;o) - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
In a message dated 11/12/2006 7:14:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aren't gores the ones that start at the waist and godets the ones that start somewhere around the thigh? ** I would say a gore is a trapezoidal piece sewn to other gores to make up a complete skirt. Whereas a godat is a piece set into a slit made in a larger piece. In theory, you can slit your gores and insert a godet into them if you want. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
I would say a gore is a trapezoidal piece sewn to other gores to make up a complete skirt. Whereas a godat is a piece set into a slit made in a larger piece. In theory, you can slit your gores and insert a godet into them if you want. This all irritates me very much. You're the third person to say more or less the same thing, and I was *sure* it was the other way around! I hate it when I'm wrong! Emma ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
In a message dated 11/13/2006 10:18:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay I couldn't resist and looked it up. Actually, this one (if it's the right one I'm looking at) says it's made to order in standard sizes, so it's not custom. And IMHO it's ugly, I must agree. It is ugly! Let's just peruse the design, shall we? The different reds look pretty ugly to me, but all personal color choices aside The upper part of the gown is made to look like a gown with hanging sleeves, with tight sleeves from an undergown in brocade showing. So far so good. Now this isn't my period by a long shot, but I'm sure they faked this in the period. Still, would not a T-shaped construction be correct, if not more common, in this time than set in sleeves? [Like I said, it's not my period] If there's no armseye seam, this sleeve coming from under another sleeve seems hard to fake. Still, it's not unfathomable, and the dress does have set in sleeves... so that's OK. But then the whole illusion is destroyed when we get to the lower skirts. Were it a full skirt of brocade with the red overskirts slit at intervals to reveal the brocade, OK. But this is not what we have. We are stuck with what is obviously one pieced layera red dress trimmed in the same brocade as the tight sleeves of a supposed undergown. Why go thru all the trouble to fool the eye from the waist up only to kill that illusion with bad design below? I said itBAD DESIGN. Let's all learn from it. There should be a LOGIC to designsa logic that is true from head to foot. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Ok, then, what is a gusset? From what I've learned over the years and confirmed by looking a the following definitions, Gore and Godet are pretty much the same, with the godet being specifically that triangular piece which extends upward from the hem to add fullness to a skirt, and a gore being that or also a trapezoidal or tapering shape that functions the same way and possibly extending higher than just the waist/hip area. A gusset is that triangle, diamond or other shape that we add into the underarm and thigh areas to give us more room where it is needed, and is sewn in on all sides. The first two are only sewn on 2 sides. * Gore (gôr, gr) n. 1. A triangular or tapering piece of cloth forming a part of something, as in a skirt or sail. 2. A small triangular piece of land. tr.v. gored, gor·ing, gores 1. To provide with a gore. 2. To cut into a gore. [Middle English, from Old English gra, triangular piece of land.] * Godet go·det (g-dt) n. A triangular piece of fabric usually set into the hem of a garment to add fullness. [French, goblet, godet, from Middle Dutch codde, cylindrical piece of wood.] * Gusset gus·set (gst) n. 1. A triangular insert, as in the seam of a garment, for added strength or expansion. 2. A triangular metal bracket used to strengthen a joist. 3. A piece of mail or plate armor protecting the joints in a suit of armor. [Middle English, from Old French gousset, perhaps diminutive of gousse, pod, husk.] ::Linda:: info taken from www.thefreedictionary.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
At 17:00 13/11/2006, you wrote: In a message dated 11/13/2006 10:18:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay I couldn't resist and looked it up. Actually, this one (if it's the right one I'm looking at) says it's made to order in standard sizes, so it's not custom. And IMHO it's ugly, I must agree. It is ugly! Let's just peruse the design, shall we? The different reds look pretty ugly to me, but all personal color choices aside The upper part of the gown is made to look like a gown with hanging sleeves, with tight sleeves from an undergown in brocade showing. So far so good. Now this isn't my period by a long shot, but I'm sure they faked this in the period. Still, would not a T-shaped construction be correct, if not more common, in this time than set in sleeves? [Like I said, it's not my period] If there's no armseye seam, this sleeve coming from under another sleeve seems hard to fake. Still, it's not unfathomable, and the dress does have set in sleeves... so that's OK. But then the whole illusion is destroyed when we get to the lower skirts. Were it a full skirt of brocade with the red overskirts slit at intervals to reveal the brocade, OK. But this is not what we have. We are stuck with what is obviously one pieced layera red dress trimmed in the same brocade as the tight sleeves of a supposed undergown. Why go thru all the trouble to fool the eye from the waist up only to kill that illusion with bad design below? I said itBAD DESIGN. Let's all learn from it. There should be a LOGIC to designsa logic that is true from head to foot. I am beginning to be tired of the incredible rudeness of this list to a fellow costumer who doesn't know she is being ripped to pieces. Would anyone be so rude to someone who is a list member? I think not. The lady obviously makes good costumes as well as not so good - don't we all? Just because it is not what this list approves of doesn't give us the right to be rude. Her address was given in good faith as someone who might be able to supply some goods. I am embarrassed that I gave her name, as I had no expectation of the sniping and carping that would go on. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Now that sounds interesting to try! Thanks. Lady Von [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/12/2006 7:14:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aren't gores the ones that start at the waist and godets the ones that start somewhere around the thigh? ** I would say a gore is a trapezoidal piece sewn to other gores to make up a complete skirt. Whereas a godat is a piece set into a slit made in a larger piece. In theory, you can slit your gores and insert a godet into them if you want. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
In a message dated 11/13/2006 12:26:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Her address was given in good faith as someone who might be able to supply some goods. I am embarrassed that I gave her name, as I had no expectation of the sniping and carping that would go on. ** The site has some very nice stuff on it. This red thing is NOT one of them. Oh well. I don't think the sky is gonna fall or her business will suffer. I don't see that it's that big a deal. I clearly stated what I thought was wrong with the design, instead of just saying I don't like it. One can agree or disagree with me. I'd tell her to her face that the skirt treatment destroys the illusion set up by the bodice, and that makes it a poorly thought out design. I don't see why anybody should lose sleep over any of it. I just pointed it out in the hopes that no one else making clothes will mistakenly go down the same path. I'm sure many would find things I make ugly too. [They have!] But that's OK...and I'd like to know why they don't like it. I'm not so thin skinned as to not be able to take criticism...even catty criticism...and use it. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
Glad you meant well but unfortunately it didn't come across that way. ** The site has some very nice stuff on it. This red thing is NOT one of them. Oh well. I don't think the sky is gonna fall or her business will suffer. I don't see that it's that big a deal. I clearly stated what I thought was wrong with the design, instead of just saying I don't like it. One can agree or disagree with me. I'd tell her to her face that the skirt treatment destroys the illusion set up by the bodice, and that makes it a poorly thought out design. I don't see why anybody should lose sleep over any of it. I just pointed it out in the hopes that no one else making clothes will mistakenly go down the same path. I'm sure many would find things I make ugly too. [They have!] But that's OK...and I'd like to know why they don't like it. I'm not so thin skinned as to not be able to take criticism...even catty criticism...and use it. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Lady Von http://www.wildthangstreasures.com - Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
You put it in great words. I tried to but your's is much much better. Lady Von Suzi Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I said itBAD DESIGN. Let's all learn from it. There should be a LOGIC to designsa logic that is true from head to foot. I am beginning to be tired of the incredible rudeness of this list to a fellow costumer who doesn't know she is being ripped to pieces. Would anyone be so rude to someone who is a list member? I think not. The lady obviously makes good costumes as well as not so good - don't we all? Just because it is not what this list approves of doesn't give us the right to be rude. Her address was given in good faith as someone who might be able to supply some goods. I am embarrassed that I gave her name, as I had no expectation of the sniping and carping that would go on. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Lady Von http://www.wildthangstreasures.com - Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
Ditto, Patty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Voncile W. Dudley Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 1:24 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts You put it in great words. I tried to but your's is much much better. Lady Von Suzi Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I said itBAD DESIGN. Let's all learn from it. There should be a LOGIC to designsa logic that is true from head to foot. I am beginning to be tired of the incredible rudeness of this list to a fellow costumer who doesn't know she is being ripped to pieces. Would anyone be so rude to someone who is a list member? I think not. The lady obviously makes good costumes as well as not so good - don't we all? Just because it is not what this list approves of doesn't give us the right to be rude. Her address was given in good faith as someone who might be able to supply some goods. I am embarrassed that I gave her name, as I had no expectation of the sniping and carping that would go on. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Lady Von http://www.wildthangstreasures.com - Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
ld someone send the link to the actual page this item is on? I've been all through the Medieval stuff and don't see it. MaggiRos --- Gail Scott Finke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay I couldn't resist and looked it up. Actually, this one (if it's the right one I'm looking at) says it's made to order in standard sizes, so it's not custom. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirts
Now I feel really bad about posting this gores question. The picture just kind of caught my eye, as I'd heard some people telling me that contrasting gores were accurate in the middle ages - a fact that I wasn't very sure of. So I just wanted to ask. It wasn't meant to doubt the lady's work at all. Suzi Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am beginning to be tired of the incredible rudeness of this list to a fellow costumer who doesn't know she is being ripped to pieces. Would anyone be so rude to someone who is a list member? I think not. The lady obviously makes good costumes as well as not so good - don't we all? Just because it is not what this list approves of doesn't give us the right to be rude. Her address was given in good faith as someone who might be able to supply some goods. I am embarrassed that I gave her name, as I had no expectation of the sniping and carping that would go on. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
I wasn't including cutting time in that estimate--I was thinking in more industrial/mass quantity terms. If you're doing a whole bunch of that sort of thing all at once, you can get really fast at it, and the type of machine you have can greatly assist in that. The website didn't say anything, that I recall, about types of seams used, or finishings on the insides, outside of the mention of the dress being half-lined. So I more or less assumed that it was serged or something similar. More labor-intensive, detail-oriented choices would of course take more time! And I certainly wouldn't want anyone doing this sort of work to under-pay themselves! It's just that I've only ever done sewing as either a strictly recreational thing, or in an industrial setting, so my costuming experiences may likely differ from other people, who are doing it on a more of a cottage industry scale. --Sue - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? You must sew awfully fast. I've been sewing most all my life and I can see that taking me a couple days, including cutting of course, so that would bring my price, just for labor, up to $400.I don' think the asking price is unreasonable. My garments are quite well made, though, and fully lined if necessary. Sylrog On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:51 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: With a serger? Couple of hours, tops. Of course, I could build a complete tent in a couple of hours, when I did it for a living. Now I deal with maps and data bases and school buses, thank goodness, and get to do my sewing for fun. --Sue in Montana, not Susan in TN ;o) - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
I sew for a living (among other things) and I don't like to rush myself too much. I certainly don't sew fast by commercial industrial standards. That would be too stressful and not at all enjoyable.I was thinking of the dress being lined, faced, etc, when I said it would probably take me a couple days. And I don't sew and serge at the same time. I prefer to sew my seams and then serge them, in case I have to take something out. I realize sewing and serging in one step cuts out a lot of extra time. SYlrog On Nov 13, 2006, at 7:39 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: I wasn't including cutting time in that estimate--I was thinking in more industrial/mass quantity terms. If you're doing a whole bunch of that sort of thing all at once, you can get really fast at it, and the type of machine you have can greatly assist in that. The website didn't say anything, that I recall, about types of seams used, or finishings on the insides, outside of the mention of the dress being half-lined. So I more or less assumed that it was serged or something similar. More labor-intensive, detail-oriented choices would of course take more time! And I certainly wouldn't want anyone doing this sort of work to under-pay themselves! It's just that I've only ever done sewing as either a strictly recreational thing, or in an industrial setting, so my costuming experiences may likely differ from other people, who are doing it on a more of a cottage industry scale. --Sue - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? You must sew awfully fast. I've been sewing most all my life and I can see that taking me a couple days, including cutting of course, so that would bring my price, just for labor, up to $400.I don' think the asking price is unreasonable. My garments are quite well made, though, and fully lined if necessary. Sylrog On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:51 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: With a serger? Couple of hours, tops. Of course, I could build a complete tent in a couple of hours, when I did it for a living. Now I deal with maps and data bases and school buses, thank goodness, and get to do my sewing for fun. --Sue in Montana, not Susan in TN ;o) - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Answered privately. --Sue (from Montana) - Original Message - From: Voncile W. Dudley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? WOW ! !! I use a regular machine and it takes me a while to finish a beautiful garment of this nature. The gown can be constructed using less expensive but good quality fabric. It would take that long to just lay and cut the pattern (or least for me) but then I have Rheumatoid Arthritis and take frequent breaks but still if I worked straight through it would take much longer than 2 hours. That is fantastic sewing. I love to sew the Ren garb but I also provide garments for today's fashion depending on the customer. Anyway, not all of us who sew for others provide [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just my 2 cents worth. Lady Von Sue Clemenger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With a serger? Couple of hours, tops. Of course, I could build a complete tent in a couple of hours, when I did it for a living. Now I deal with maps and data bases and school buses, thank goodness, and get to do my sewing for fun. --Sue in Montana, not Susan in TN ;o) - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad To: Historical Costume Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad : I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Lady Von http://www.wildthangstreasures.com - Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Absolutely! I may have been making incorrect assumptions about the construction of this dress, but the website wasn't exactly forthcoming with details! ;o) I've not really ever bought historically-themed clothing or costumes, as I usually make my own, but I have definitely purchased my share of off-the-rack clothing over the years, and have looked at some items that friends have purchased. There's an awfully wide range of construction options out there, and certainly, an item that was more carefully constructed would be worthy of a higher asking price. I just don't assume the reverse, especially given that the website didn't provide many details, which I've seen a number of others do, especially when they're aiming at a reenactor's market, in which authentic construction is a definite selling point for some folks. --Sue - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? I sew for a living (among other things) and I don't like to rush myself too much. I certainly don't sew fast by commercial industrial standards. That would be too stressful and not at all enjoyable.I was thinking of the dress being lined, faced, etc, when I said it would probably take me a couple days. And I don't sew and serge at the same time. I prefer to sew my seams and then serge them, in case I have to take something out. I realize sewing and serging in one step cuts out a lot of extra time. SYlrog On Nov 13, 2006, at 7:39 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: I wasn't including cutting time in that estimate--I was thinking in more industrial/mass quantity terms. If you're doing a whole bunch of that sort of thing all at once, you can get really fast at it, and the type of machine you have can greatly assist in that. The website didn't say anything, that I recall, about types of seams used, or finishings on the insides, outside of the mention of the dress being half-lined. So I more or less assumed that it was serged or something similar. More labor-intensive, detail-oriented choices would of course take more time! And I certainly wouldn't want anyone doing this sort of work to under-pay themselves! It's just that I've only ever done sewing as either a strictly recreational thing, or in an industrial setting, so my costuming experiences may likely differ from other people, who are doing it on a more of a cottage industry scale. --Sue - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? You must sew awfully fast. I've been sewing most all my life and I can see that taking me a couple days, including cutting of course, so that would bring my price, just for labor, up to $400.I don' think the asking price is unreasonable. My garments are quite well made, though, and fully lined if necessary. Sylrog On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:51 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: With a serger? Couple of hours, tops. Of course, I could build a complete tent in a couple of hours, when I did it for a living. Now I deal with maps and data bases and school buses, thank goodness, and get to do my sewing for fun. --Sue in Montana, not Susan in TN ;o) - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h
Re: Sewing speeds was Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middleages???
(my latest costume, Catwoman from Batman Returns only took a couple of weeks from buying material to final sewing. but again if I was healthier would have taken much less time.) Of course, if you believe the movie, Michelle Pfeiffer did it all in an evening ;-) I incorporated this into my skit/QA in character in the competition;) Don't believe the hype type of thing;) People were most amused. I also explained you cannot getinto a catsuit that zips up the back a corset that laces up the back and knee high boots that are so closely laced while driving a small car. Certainly not while applying heavy make up and hiding all your hair under the cowl! http://costumes.glittersweet.com/other/catwoman.htm http://pulpspace.net.nz/joomla/index.php?option=com_exposeItemid=30 More good photos here under Armageddon Expo and then cosplay. It's a flash photo gallery. Michaela de Bruce http://glittersweet.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: Sewing speeds was Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middleages???
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, michaela wrote: http://costumes.glittersweet.com/other/catwoman.htm http://pulpspace.net.nz/joomla/index.php?option=com_exposeItemid=30 Oh my goodness, this looks brilliant! And you wear it well. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Gores in various configurations were used to widen skirts from the early middle ages on (it's an early step in the evolution of tailoring), but the use of a contrast gore for stylish effect is not really documentable for this period (I think there is some use of this technique in the 19th century, but I'm not sure). It looks really nifty, however. Makes me wish it *was* documentable... Marg. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Branwyn Maura wrote: Gores in various configurations were used to widen skirts from the early middle ages on (it's an early step in the evolution of tailoring), but the use of a contrast gore for stylish effect is not really documentable for this period (I think there is some use of this technique in the 19th century, but I'm not sure). It looks really nifty, however. Makes me wish it *was* documentable... Definitely a matter of taste... I hate it and wish it would go away :-) -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Quoting Branwyn Maura [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gores in various configurations were used to widen skirts from the early middle ages on (it's an early step in the evolution of tailoring), but the use of a contrast gore for stylish effect is not really documentable for this period (I think there is some use of this technique in the 19th century, but I'm not sure). It looks really nifty, however. Makes me wish it *was* documentable... Oh, yeah. I'm with you on this one. I saw a nice gown once with a reversable brocade done like this -- it was very nice. susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Gores in various configurations were used to widen skirts from the early middle ages on (it's an early step in the evolution of tailoring), but the use of a contrast gore for stylish effect is not really documentable for this period (I think there is some use of this technique in the 19th century, but I'm not sure). Sorry, I forgot to mention that I'm looking for an evidence proving that CONTRASTING gores were used - thanks for reminding:-) - Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Aren't gores the ones that start at the waist and godets the ones that start somewhere around the thigh? Anyone know the difference, if any? Lady Von Adele de Maisieres [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Branwyn Maura wrote: Gores in various configurations were used to widen skirts from the early middle ages on (it's an early step in the evolution of tailoring), but the use of a contrast gore for stylish effect is not really documentable for this period (I think there is some use of this technique in the 19th century, but I'm not sure). It looks really nifty, however. Makes me wish it *was* documentable... Definitely a matter of taste... I hate it and wish it would go away :-) -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Voncile W. Dudley wrote: Aren't gores the ones that start at the waist and godets the ones that start somewhere around the thigh? Anyone know the difference, if any? Well, SCA-types tend to call them gores and modern dressmakers tend to call them godets and use gore to refer to a trapezoidal panel. -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Interesting, that you liked it. It made my eyes bleed, and the authenticity-nut part of me back up hissing and spitting. I was also pretty taken aback by the price (starting at 350 pounds??? Wowser!). I guess our respective mileages are varying greatly on this one, huh? ;oD --sue in montana - Original Message - From: Branwyn Maura [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:46 AM Subject: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Gores in various configurations were used to widen skirts from the early middle ages on (it's an early step in the evolution of tailoring), but the use of a contrast gore for stylish effect is not really documentable for this period (I think there is some use of this technique in the 19th century, but I'm not sure). It looks really nifty, however. Makes me wish it *was* documentable... Marg. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
How much is 350 pounds? On Nov 12, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: Interesting, that you liked it. It made my eyes bleed, and the authenticity-nut part of me back up hissing and spitting. I was also pretty taken aback by the price (starting at 350 pounds??? Wowser!). I guess our respective mileages are varying greatly on this one, huh? ;oD --sue in montana - Original Message - From: Branwyn Maura [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:46 AM Subject: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Gores in various configurations were used to widen skirts from the early middle ages on (it's an early step in the evolution of tailoring), but the use of a contrast gore for stylish effect is not really documentable for this period (I think there is some use of this technique in the 19th century, but I'm not sure). It looks really nifty, however. Makes me wish it *was* documentable... Marg. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How much is 350 pounds? $700 USD -- approximately susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Sylvia Rognstad wrote: How much is 350 pounds? 1000 New Zealand dollars. -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Using my handy-dandy converter: http://www.xe.net/ucc/ Roughly 669 buckolas!!! (Too bad it can't be phantasy-bucks for phantasy-garb!!) Theresa Eacker How much is 350 pounds? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Greetings-- Adele de Maisieres wrote: Voncile W. Dudley wrote: Aren't gores the ones that start at the waist and godets the ones that start somewhere around the thigh? Anyone know the difference, if any? Well, SCA-types tend to call them gores and modern dressmakers tend to call them godets and use gore to refer to a trapezoidal panel. I'm guessing we don't really know what they called the suckers in the Middle Ages :-) Susan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. On Nov 12, 2006, at 7:28 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How much is 350 pounds? $700 USD -- approximately susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Well, except that in reality what costs $1 in the USA costs £1 in the UK. So from the UK seller's point of view it would be a more accurate reflection of their how much they are earning (in terms of paying the bills, keeping food on the table etc.) if you just change the dollar symbol to a pounds symbol. Now change your estimate to $350 (or even better look at more local websites) and see if it's still worth it. Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/ - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. On Nov 12, 2006, at 7:28 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How much is 350 pounds? $700 USD -- approximately susan - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
About 1/6 of a ton. ;-) sorry, couldn't resist. On Nov 12, 2006, at 9:19 PM, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: How much is 350 pounds? On Nov 12, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: Interesting, that you liked it. It made my eyes bleed, and the authenticity-nut part of me back up hissing and spitting. I was also pretty taken aback by the price (starting at 350 pounds??? Wowser!). I guess our respective mileages are varying greatly on this one, huh? ;oD --sue in montana - Original Message - From: Branwyn Maura [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:46 AM Subject: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Gores in various configurations were used to widen skirts from the early middle ages on (it's an early step in the evolution of tailoring), but the use of a contrast gore for stylish effect is not really documentable for this period (I think there is some use of this technique in the 19th century, but I'm not sure). It looks really nifty, however. Makes me wish it *was* documentable... Marg. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
Personally, I wouldn't touch it if it were mailed to me, free. And sure not for several hundred dollars. I've seen some seriously tacky [EMAIL PROTECTED] aimed at the non-sewing SCA crowd (and, I assume at other non-sewing reenactors/hobbyists of relatively same time frame and required authenticity level), and that particular gown's right in there with the please, god, make it go away stuff IMHO, of course. --Sue, needing to go fondle some of her wool flannels just to take the taint away ;o) - Original Message - From: Elizabeth Walpole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Well, except that in reality what costs $1 in the USA costs £1 in the UK. So from the UK seller's point of view it would be a more accurate reflection of their how much they are earning (in terms of paying the bills, keeping food on the table etc.) if you just change the dollar symbol to a pounds symbol. Now change your estimate to $350 (or even better look at more local websites) and see if it's still worth it. Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/ - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. On Nov 12, 2006, at 7:28 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: How much is 350 pounds? $700 USD -- approximately susan - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
With a serger? Couple of hours, tops. Of course, I could build a complete tent in a couple of hours, when I did it for a living. Now I deal with maps and data bases and school buses, thank goodness, and get to do my sewing for fun. --Sue in Montana, not Susan in TN ;o) - Original Message - From: Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Really? How long do you estimate it would take you to make such a gown? On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Susan B. Farmer wrote: Quoting Sylvia Rognstad [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I should go into business. Wonder how many this company sells at those prices. Who Knows! But I could sure sell them a lot cheaper than that! susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages???
- Original Message - From: Sue Clemenger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: gores in skirt in late Middle ages??? Personally, I wouldn't touch it if it were mailed to me, free. And sure not for several hundred dollars. I've seen some seriously tacky [EMAIL PROTECTED] aimed at the non-sewing SCA crowd (and, I assume at other non-sewing reenactors/hobbyists of relatively same time frame and required authenticity level), and that particular gown's right in there with the please, god, make it go away stuff IMHO, of course. --Sue, needing to go fondle some of her wool flannels just to take the taint away ;o) In defence of this company in particular the example we've been discussing is in their custom made section, so presumably it's a customer's design not their own. Their readymade stuff looks fairly good as does most of their custom made stuff, and they do describe the fantasy stuff as 'medieval inspired' or '15th century inspired' etc. http://chimera-costumes.co.uk/ Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] re: Gores
Hi folks... good discussion here... thanks, Just how many extant garments do we have to make that assumption on? I would personally think that gores varied ... some pointy, some not. I didn't say no gores in the 13th century are sharp. I said it's a mistake to assume, from the evidence we have, that sharpness of gores was considered an important workmanship issue, or that medieval methods would, if properly done, necessarily produce sharp gores. Excellent point - and one on which many re-creators, re-enactors get stuck. It's a point where the modern aesthetic conflicts with the medieval evidence. but I haven't seen evidence that they had any motivation to do this. Let me look through my resources... it'll be an interesting thing to go look for. One area that is a bit later than medieval is the Tudor and Elizabethan shirt, in these we tend to see very precise stitching and setting in of gores and godets. My point is this: snip hallelujah! Yes... it is true that many people assume that a flat or even tucked gore is wrong. And it is true that there are only a few of us out there that teach this alternative to the masses, but as you know education is a process... and I have faith that one day the balance will tip so that the common wisdom comes more in line with actual evidence. Until then, we keep teaching. But we have absolutely no reason to think that flat, sharp gore points were valued, and what little data we have seems to suggest otherwise. This I would point out is arguable, mainly because we do have so little data to work with. We do know that longevity and wearability would be valued... so if someone was to use a non-flat topped gore, it would be to their benefit, and help the life of the garment to make that insertion to the best of their ability. but I typically hear the razor-sharp gore point presented as a quality of accurate or well-made garb, Well, it is a quality of well made clothing. If that is what you are going for. As to accuracy, I think we have a new question to investigate, just what type of gore/godet was used when? I wouldn't be surprised, for instance, to find out that some judges at SCA costume competitions would grade people down for gores with rounded tops or slight pleats, under the assumption that it's badworkmanship. I agree with you, and again that would be the triumph of the modern aesthetic over the actual. But it could also be for a lack of knowledge... so we have another place to educate. Now this crosses over into a far broader topic... one that I've been starting to address at my lectures. The battle between the modern aesthetic and period construction. It's been an interesting area of research. this is good sewing technique without realizing that the garments *of the period they're teaching* show no evidence of those methods (e.g. gathered sleeve caps, French seam finishing, stay-stitching, facings, pattern matching -- and other techniques that were valued in some periods but not in others). In this instance, and in many others, ISTM that if you approach the construction of a garment using the materials and techniques available to the person of the period you're reconstructing and consistent with the known evidence, you're likely to come to different conclusions about what makes sense and what works well than you would if you use modern techniques and materials. I'll take this one step further. Working with accurate methods and materials does indeed give you a better understanding of the process. I highly recommend it. BUT you also need to approach the process with an open mind and without preconceptions. For example with needle and thread I can produce sharp gores and I have also produced rounded gores (a chemise) and Flat topped gores (the infamous Kielbasa dress), and pleated gores (a different chemise). It's not only about familiarity with the media, but working towards mastery. On that line, I've been thinking about the small pleat in the top of the St. Louis shirt gore. There's no question that the shirt is well-made by a person highly skilled at sewing, so I would assume the pleat is intentional. I wonder if that slight pleating would make the gore wear better and work better, because it would allow you to spread the body of the shirt a little wider before encountering resistance at the stress point. If the gore is perfectly flat, you can't open the angle of the slash quite as far (unless you make the bottom of the gore correspondingly wider). With a flat gore, if you need to allow for a sizable amount expansion over a short vertical distance from waist to hip, you need to make a fairly wide angle, which commits you to a certain degree of width at the bottom. Making the top of the gore a little flatter and wider, and taking up that excess width in a small pleat, lets you get the sides of the finished gore further apart in those top few
[h-cost] re: Gores
Now, about that top point. Don't try to do it on the machine! Yes, it can be done, but it requires a lot of finagling and can cause a lot of frustration. Consider that the people who used this construction were working by hand -- this was never designed to be done by machine. It's much, much simpler by hand. If you do it by machine, you need to do a lot of marking of seam allowances and turning points and so forth. All very exact -- too much like machine quilting for my taste ;-) Everyone has a technique or 2 that they dont like or havent yet mastered. Perhaps Robin others is missing out on a very nifty trick that will make this a tad easier. If setting a gore (godet) by machine is good enough for the couture industry, it's good enough for me. Here's how it's done. First we'll practice on a scrap: 1. Fetch 2 scraps of fabric, say 1 sq foot each. One, the garment piece, will be slashed and have the gore inserted. The other will be the gore. 1b. Prep the gore section. Typically, for us early period types up thru the 19th c, the gore is symmetrical and not on the straight grain, cross grain or true bias. It may have a seamline down the middle. If so, finish it now. Your gore should be several inches longer than the slash as measured down the center line. When using the true bias, the gore is at it's stretchiest. If you can master the technique this way, then every other gore should be easier. * Chalk 1/2 seamlines at the top of gore. They should cross at the top center. This is the apex of the gore. 2. On the garment piece, draw a chalk line right down the middle. The X marks the top of gore's seamline: ! ! ! ! !__x ! ! ! ! 2. Stay stitch (check machine tension, ensure no pulling) 1/4 on either side of chalk line. When arriving at the point angle the stitching line gently toward the X. At the X, lift the foot, pivot your sample, and mirror-image stitch along the other side. DO NOT CUT the thread! That's possibly the most important part of this technique. There must be a continuous thread up, around down the point. ! ! !_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_\x ! - - - - - - - - - - -/ ! 3. Slashing. Cut along chalk line, or, if you wiggled while stitching, cut between the stitch lines. Cut all the way to the X, but DO NOT CUT the thread. It's called slashing, but dont get too aggressive. If you twist, tug or pull you'll distort the results. 4. You'll need a powerful bit of imagination for this next bit. We'll be working right sides together, with the gore on the bottom, garment piece on top. Spread the slashed, garment piece so that the top of the slash aligns with the chalked seamlines of the gore. The top of slash threadlines goes exactly overtop the crossed chalked seamlines of the gore. Obvious the amount of seam allowance varies greatly on these 2 pieces. Believe me when I say the thread line goes exactly overtop the chalked seamlines. * slowly *baste* the last 2 inches toward the point; * at the X, put the machine needle down, pivot your work; * align the threadline with the chalk line on this side, and stitch a few inches Peek at the apex of the gore. Look good smooth? finish stitching the seam. Look messy? pick out your stitches try again. Assuming you've got the machine cleaned, a fresh needle, tension balanced, needle thread correctly selected for the weight of the fabric and all the other basics under control, this should do you well. Cant understand w/o a picture? I love Claire Schaffer's books. Look up godets, gusset and/or stitching a seam with an inward corner. Think you got it? How to cheat this technique: Stitch only the top 2 of the slashed section. After the gore is set into the slash, remove the stay stitching. --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] re: Gores
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Cin wrote: Now, about that top point. Don't try to do it on the machine! Yes, it can be done, but it requires a lot of finagling and can cause a lot of frustration. Consider that the people who used this construction were working by hand -- this was never designed to be done by machine. It's much, much simpler by hand. If you do it by machine, you need to do a lot of marking of seam allowances and turning points and so forth. All very exact -- too much like machine quilting for my taste ;-) Everyone has a technique or 2 that they dont like or havent yet mastered. Perhaps Robin others is missing out on a very nifty trick that will make this a tad easier. If setting a gore (godet) by machine is good enough for the couture industry, it's good enough for me. Let me rephrase what I said, then, since I see that the idea of easier came through much more strongly in the paragraph quoted than the overall point I was trying to make in my post. Setting a gore by machine is quite a good choice if you are doing (modern) couture work and/or want a (modern) couture effect. Once you're mastered the technique (very well described in Cin's post) it is easy enough to do. However: The original poster was trying to make a 13th century garment. The best way to get a 13th c. effect is to use 13th c. techniques. If you use a modern machine technique to set your gore, you'll get a modern (pointy) gore, which appears *not* to be something that is found in medieval clothing. The best way to achieve the medieval-looking gore is to use the medieval method, which is hand-sewing. As you said, with practice, you can certainly get nice, clean, perfect (modern) gores on machine. But for the original poster, who has not already learned that technique and is starting from ground up, I would still advise putting the time and effort into learning a technique that is more likely to be period rather than learning a modern one. If she doesn't already know the machine technique, it would indeed be fiddly and require lots of marking and turning and such; learning and perfecting this technique will be useful only if she wants the effect it can give. The usual disclaimers apply: This is what works for me, and for my approach. I realize I do a lot of things differently from others on this list, because my purposes are different. (I also have pretty much abandoned using modern measuring systems, anything requiring computation on paper, and anything resembling pattern drafting.) Someone whose aim is to get a reasonable-looking garment for event wear using the techniques they're already familiar with, or who is making other compromises (e.g. in materials or layering) for practical or budgetary purposes, will find different approaches that suit their needs. This is just fine, as far as I'm concerned. I hope that readers here understand that I will tend to answer questions about medieval clothing in terms of medieval techniques and medieval effects; modern adaptations are then up to the judgment and choice of the individual. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] re: Gores
I hand sew everything... and my gores are razor sharp. All it ever takes is practice. As for no gores in the 13th century being sharp... Just how many extant garments do we have to make that assumption on? I would personally think that gores varied ... some pointy, some not. YMMV, Bridgette However: The original poster was trying to make a 13th century garment. The best way to get a 13th c. effect is to use 13th c. techniques. If you use a modern machine technique to set your gore, you'll get a modern (pointy) gore, which appears *not* to be something that is found in medieval clothing. The best way to achieve the medieval-looking gore is to use the medieval method, which is hand-sewing. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] re: Gores
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Marie Stewart wrote: I hand sew everything... and my gores are razor sharp. All it ever takes is practice. As for no gores in the 13th century being sharp... Just how many extant garments do we have to make that assumption on? I would personally think that gores varied ... some pointy, some not. I'd expect they varied, too, and I'd expect sewing methods in general varied from place to place, period to period, and person to person. I didn't say no gores in the 13th century are sharp. I said it's a mistake to assume, from the evidence we have, that sharpness of gores was considered an important workmanship issue, or that medieval methods would, if properly done, necessarily produce sharp gores. I have no doubt that medieval people could have made their gores as pointy as they wanted -- they were very skilled, and their adeptness is evident in other aspects of these garments -- but I haven't seen evidence that they had any motivation to do this. My point is this: I hear a lot of people saying (or simply assuming) that gores are *supposed* to be perfectly flat and pointy. People routinely give advice on costuming lists on how to achieve this; they put up instruction pages on websites; they teach it in classes. Yet the best-known, most often referenced extant garments we have *don't* have flat, pointy gore tops -- an alternative I rarely see mentioned, much less taught. When I do slide lectures on the Herjolfsnes garments, I frequently point out the flat-topped gores, and from the reactions of the audiences, you'd think I'd just given them papal dispensation -- they never realized it was documentable to have non-pointy gores, hallelujah! Sure, maybe some medieval people made pointy gores. But we have absolutely no reason to think that flat, sharp gore points were valued, and what little data we have seems to suggest otherwise. Sure, it's fine to teach methods that produce flat, sharp points because they get the job done -- but I typically hear the razor-sharp gore point presented as a quality of accurate or well-made garb, and there's no justification to think that's the case. I wouldn't be surprised, for instance, to find out that some judges at SCA costume competitions would grade people down for gores with rounded tops or slight pleats, under the assumption that it's bad workmanship. That would, however, be a modern assumption, one that I suspect comes from people being taught to value making sharp clean angles in couture sewing, modern quilt-top piecing, etc. I've seen people teach other modern methods because they learned that this is good sewing technique without realizing that the garments *of the period they're teaching* show no evidence of those methods (e.g. gathered sleeve caps, French seam finishing, stay-stitching, facings, pattern matching -- and other techniques that were valued in some periods but not in others). In this instance, and in many others, ISTM that if you approach the construction of a garment using the materials and techniques available to the person of the period you're reconstructing and consistent with the known evidence, you're likely to come to different conclusions about what makes sense and what works well than you would if you use modern techniques and materials. And sometimes when we don't understand why period evidence shows us something (either in art or artifact), trying it using medieval methods may give us a clue that we wouldn't recognize if we used modern ones. On that line, I've been thinking about the small pleat in the top of the St. Louis shirt gore. There's no question that the shirt is well-made by a person highly skilled at sewing, so I would assume the pleat is intentional. I wonder if that slight pleating would make the gore wear better and work better, because it would allow you to spread the body of the shirt a little wider before encountering resistance at the stress point. If the gore is perfectly flat, you can't open the angle of the slash quite as far (unless you make the bottom of the gore correspondingly wider). With a flat gore, if you need to allow for a sizable amount expansion over a short vertical distance from waist to hip, you need to make a fairly wide angle, which commits you to a certain degree of width at the bottom. Making the top of the gore a little flatter and wider, and taking up that excess width in a small pleat, lets you get the sides of the finished gore further apart in those top few inches without as much stress, and without requiring more width at the bottom. Something else to try in an experiment... --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] RE: Gores
I agree with Robin on the duplicating period techniques (or getting as close as possible) is usually the best way to duplicate a period result. Modern techniques are usually the result of technological process evolution, and may come up with a result that is often easier to learn, or looks better, but may not look correct to the trained eye. That being said, my hand sewn gores suck (ok, *I* think they suck). I prefer the pointy gores because it's my personal opinion (based on ZERO objective or statistical evidence) that they were more common. And I'll keep doing them that way until I get them right :) My major problem is getting some sort of seam allowance on the body piece, but not the gore. What this means is that I either wind up with a stress gap at the point, or compression wrinkles (both of which I expect are prefectly period, but are ideally wrong). The most successful garment I've done with this, I rolled the edge of the seam up to the point before inserting the gore, and then whip stitching the seam - which I'm pretty sure is not period for this garment. Any suggestions? Marc ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] RE: Gores
That being said, my hand sewn gores suck (ok, *I* think they suck). I prefer the pointy gores because it's my personal opinion (based on ZERO objective or statistical evidence) that they were more common. And I'll keep doing them that way until I get them right :) My major problem is getting some sort of seam allowance on the body piece, but not the gore. What this means is that I either wind up with a stress gap at the point, or compression wrinkles (both of which I expect are prefectly period, but are ideally wrong). One way I'd try, which may or may not have been used, would be to press the seam allowance under for the godet and ladder stitch the point in first. That way you don't run out of seam allowance for the body part, and if the point was pressed afer clipping the godet seam allowance on the inside you could get a neat sharp point. The only thing is the eam allowance for body and godet would be in the same direction: pointing inwards. No idea if there is any evidence of this. I know I've used ladder stitch several times for my historical garb. michaela de bruce http://costumes.glittersweet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/86 - Release Date: 31/08/2005 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
