Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[john lewis]

On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 20:08:43 +0100
Alan Pope  wrote:

> > Doubt : should I recompile my kernel ?
> >
> 
> I haven't compiled a kernel _at_ _all_ for 4 years. I did plenty
> before that, but haven't needed to since. I switched to Ubuntu 4 years
> ago. Wonder if these things are related somehow.

why should it be related, I have been using stock Debian kernels for
years and haven't ever needed to compile my own kernel in order to have
a running system (I _have_ done kernel compiles to find out if doing so
had any benefits) 

> > Yes MythTV is a great step . You guys are doing a great job
> > releasing packages for ubuntu .
> > Could you please clear a "D" of FUD ie Doubt : " Why can't I apt-get
> > install mythtv  on debian sid? "
> >
> 
> You can. If you add this repo:-
> 
> http://debian-multimedia.org/

don't forget to install the Debian-Multimedia-Keyring first

From the Multimedia page FAQ

Q. Why apt-get doesn't find this public key : NO_PUBKEY
07DC563D1F41B907 ? A. Install the debian-multimedia-keyring package
with with "dpkg -i debian-multimedia-keyring_2008.10.16_all.deb" (click
on the link above to download the package).

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Keith Edmunds]

On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 21:16:49 +0100, step...@rowles.org.uk said:

> Thanks 
> for cutting me some slack. Sometime I do wonder why I bother with this 
> mailing list as so often I seem to run into people who are more 
> interested in posting a hostile response than fostering a sense of 
> community. Not exactly friendly, thanks.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but it isn't my fault that you didn't
name the card you have. I did post what I thought was a useful link, but
that appeared to be not as useful to you as I had hoped.

> And that is why I come back to my point that I would not recommend Linux 
> as a media centre solution for anyone who doesn't already know Linux and 
> isn't afraid to get their hands dirty, it's just too much hassle. 

I would agree with you completely, although I know others would disagree.
However, it is reasonable (isn't it?) to assume that members of this list
either know Linux or are prepared to learn about it. Should it be easier?
Yes, of course it should. It can be made easier by people contributing,
which also aligns with the community you spoke of. Some people are skilled
coders; others can write user documentation or maybe just a blog
describing how they set up a particular system; others test new releases
and submit bug reports; still more people badger manufacturers and
retailers to do more to support Linux. And huge, huge strides have been
made. But if you care, as it appears you do, make sure you fall into one
of the groups that is improving things, no matter in how small a way (I'm
not suggesting that you don't fall into that category: I just don't know).

> I truly wish it wasn't that hard, I wish manufactures listed Linux 
> compatibility on their hardware boxes / websites

It's starting to happen, but you're right that there's a long way to go.

> and I really wish 
> people on mailing lists were less rude to newbies asking questions.

This list is one of the more newbie-friendly lists, and there are also
regular meetings where members are only too happy to help others. Maybe
you felt I was being unfriendly, in which case I apologise. I admit to
being frustrated at anyone who posts a link without saying what it is, and
that happens too often.

Keith

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

Keith Edmunds wrote:
>
> The MythTV mailing list and website are very helpful in this respect.
>   
I don't run myth so didn't think of posting there, the linux-dvb mailing 
list wasn't very helpful.
>   
>> For me I own:
>>
>> http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=226218&category_oid=
>> 
>
> That's just plain irritating. Why do you make your reader(s) click on a
> link to find out what you are talking about? Why not just say, "I have a
> Blogmeister TelliVee WonderCard"?
>   
I was trying to be explicit as to which card I own (especially has 
hauppauge have several models with similar names) and after pasting the 
link I obviously forgot to add the name and model to the email. Thanks 
for cutting me some slack. Sometime I do wonder why I bother with this 
mailing list as so often I seem to run into people who are more 
interested in posting a hostile response than fostering a sense of 
community. Not exactly friendly, thanks.
>> TV cards are still not as good as the support that Windows provides
>> 
>
> I'm not sure that makes sense. Maybe you mean that the support for TV
> cards under Linux is inferior to that which Windows provides. I couldn't
> comment: I don't run Windows, but I suspect that is the case. If Google is
> not working you might want to look at
> http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Video_capture_card
>
>   
I'm trying to point out what an up hill struggle a new Linux user has 
trying to get a working system with a working TV card of some 
description.Your only choice is to run the gauntlet of unhelpful, 
sarcastic and in many cases down right rude "experienced" Linux users 
while you tear your hair out wondering why things don't work.

That link on the MythTV wiki illustrates this point perfectly. If as a 
Windows user I go into PC world I can look at some shiny boxes on the 
shelf, read the worlds on the small selection they have, and take home a 
card / USB stick that will work with my Windows machine all nice and 
easy. They even have a nice sticker saying things like "Media Centre 
Compatible" so I know I can have a card that will work.

For Linux I have to search Google and find the MythTV page you linked. 
If I can get past the jargon of DVB-something and ATSC and other bits 
and follow the link to "Terrestrial viewing" I'm present with a list of 
45 cards with meaningless names with no clue as to where I might go to 
buy one of the cards or even if the card is still sold. If I then decide 
that I thought the Hauppauge WinTV Nova-T 500 PCI looked interesting, 
and I thought that PC World sold it, I click on the link to the page 
with details on the card and run a mile!

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Hauppauge_WinTV_Nova-T_500_PCI

Or if I thought that the HVR-1110 sounded good I think I would be more 
put off by this page:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Hauppage_WinTV-HVR-1110

And that is why I come back to my point that I would not recommend Linux 
as a media centre solution for anyone who doesn't already know Linux and 
isn't afraid to get their hands dirty, it's just too much hassle. Don't 
get me wrong, Linux is great, my home laptop runs it, I run a media 
centre / server at home and my day to day development machine at work 
runs Linux. I've been using it on and off for over 12 years now. But it 
just isn't user friendly especially when you start dealing with things 
like TV and media. If all you want is to email, browse the web and type 
simple documents I would recommend a netbook running Linux in a flash, 
but for "power" uses it is too steep a learning curve and too difficult 
for your average computer user.

I truly wish it wasn't that hard, I wish manufactures listed Linux 
compatibility on their hardware boxes / websites, and I really wish 
people on mailing lists were less rude to newbies asking questions. And 
that the solution to problems wasn't the case of, oh simple just open a 
console window and type "insert magic incantation here". Most windows 
users have never even seen a command prompt and would run a mile at the 
prospect of having to type something in or edit some arcane 
configuration file to get what they see as a basic job done.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Keith Edmunds]

On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 20:18:46 +0100, step...@rowles.org.uk said:

> In my experience TV card support still sucks and it is very hard finding 
> a real person who really has a card that actually works and that you can 
> still buy who will give you advice ;)

The MythTV mailing list and website are very helpful in this respect.


> For me I own:
> 
> http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=226218&category_oid=

That's just plain irritating. Why do you make your reader(s) click on a
link to find out what you are talking about? Why not just say, "I have a
Blogmeister TelliVee WonderCard"?

> TV cards are still not as good as the support that Windows provides

I'm not sure that makes sense. Maybe you mean that the support for TV
cards under Linux is inferior to that which Windows provides. I couldn't
comment: I don't run Windows, but I suspect that is the case. If Google is
not working you might want to look at
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Video_capture_card

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

Alan Pope wrote:
> 2009/8/6 pavithran :
>   
>> Uncertainty : yeah I am afraid if my tv tuner or graphic card gets
>> detected  in linux
>>
>> 
>
> There is this thing called Google. It has a list of supported devices.
>
>   
When it comes to TV tuners that still assumes:

1) You can find somewhere in the uk selling it
2) When you buy it it doesn't turn out to be a different hardware 
revision that doesn't work.
3) Support happens to actually work as opposed to claiming to work and 
then not actually.

In my experience TV card support still sucks and it is very hard finding 
a real person who really has a card that actually works and that you can 
still buy who will give you advice ;)

For me I own:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=226218&category_oid=

Which does work for me with Fedora 10 without any re-compiles. Just 
requires tracking down the firmware using Google. (again assuming this 
isn't a new version that doesn't work, which unfortunately you cannot 
tell from the outside, only once you plug it in).

TV cards are still not as good as the support that Windows provides and 
are quite a scary thing for the newbie it can be quite a bit of money to 
gamble on a card that might not work.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Alan Pope]

2009/8/6 pavithran :
> Uncertainty : yeah I am afraid if my tv tuner or graphic card gets
> detected  in linux
>

There is this thing called Google. It has a list of supported devices.

> Doubt : should I recompile my kernel ?
>

I haven't compiled a kernel _at_ _all_ for 4 years. I did plenty
before that, but haven't needed to since. I switched to Ubuntu 4 years
ago. Wonder if these things are related somehow.

> Yes MythTV is a great step . You guys are doing a great job releasing
> packages for ubuntu .
> Could you please clear a "D" of FUD ie Doubt : " Why can't I apt-get
> install mythtv  on debian sid? "
>

You can. If you add this repo:-

http://debian-multimedia.org/

That took 30 seconds and google.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=mythtv+debian+packages

*click* the first hit.

*click* packages.

*click* unstable -> i386

Scroll down, discover mythtv.

http://debian-multimedia.org/dists/unstable/main/binary-i386/package/mythtv.php

Build-Date: 04 July 2009

Looks good.

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Anton Piatek]

On 02/08/2009, Stuart Matheson  wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I did a quick search of the HantsLUG list and couldn't find anything
> appropriate so please let me know if I've missed something.
>
> My girlfriend is moving out of her current splace and will no longer have
> access to the expert she had there (ie someone with an xbox with xbmc). I'm
> looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be plugged into a TV for watching
> iplayer, youtube and other online video as well as video files and possibly
> a dvd (I have an external dvd player she could use though so it isn't a deal
> breaker). She said the xbox was quite noisy though so she'd like something
> quiet. Something that shouldn't have much trouble running something like
> xbmc (which she is familiar with, or any other easy to use program) and can
> connect to a SD tv would be great. A remote will also likely be required. An
> internal or external HDD would be fine as I have one spare. She is also
> interested in wii fit so a nintendo might be an option, but I have no idea
> if it would fit the bill in regards to the other requirements.
>
> What can people recommend for this (unit and remote)? It doesn't necessary
> have to be brand new so 2nd hand laptops/refurbished PCs aren't out of the
> question. Like most people (or in her case, public servants) she is pretty
> skint so the cheaper the better.
>
> All suggestions welcome :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stuart
>


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[pavithran]

2009/8/3 Dave Walker :
> In regards to Mythtv on Ubuntu, we go to great measures to ensure that
> upgrades (if required) are as clean as possible.  Seeing FUD like the
> above, really is a slap in the face.  Thanks.

I am realy glad to evoke a response from big people as you :)

I am spreading FUD - Fear , Uncertainty , Doubt

Fear - I am afraid of hardware vendors which care about providing
drivers for win 98 , xp ,vista and also ready to ship drivers for win
7

Uncertainty : yeah I am afraid if my tv tuner or graphic card gets
detected  in linux

Doubt : should I recompile my kernel ?

Yes MythTV is a great step . You guys are doing a great job releasing
packages for ubuntu .
Could you please clear a "D" of FUD ie Doubt : " Why can't I apt-get
install mythtv  on debian sid? "

Regards,
Pavithran

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Keith Edmunds]

On a related note, I'd be interested to hear of others' experiences with
cases suitable for a media PC. Ideally: smart enough to go in a living
room, remote control included or easily added, and a small VFD compatible
with MythTV. Any takers?

Keith

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Samuel Penn]

On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 20:51:26 +0100, "Rob Malpass" 
wrote:
> From: "Samuel Penn" 
>> I use a PS3 for the above, including CD, DVD (not sure about region
>> encoding) and Blu-ray. There is a bluetooth remote for video playback.
>> Does web browsing as well (though some sites don't work so well). It's
>> not the quietest thing ever, but I've found it quiet enough.
> 
> Coming to this debate rather late - I've been looking for something that 
> will simply read files off my NAS and play them.   If it can do video
then 
> great but I can't find a device anywhere that will read mp3s and play
them 
> back through the TV when the mp3s aren't stored on a machine elsewhere 
> running itunes or wmp.   Are you saying a ps3 can do this?

You'd need a UPNP media server (I use mediatomb, which will stream (and
transcode on the fly if necessary) music, video and images) to do something
like this. The PS3 won't read directly from a network drive, but you don't
need iTunes or WMP.

Sam.




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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

On 08/05/2009 11:58 AM, Adam Sweet wrote:



Brief summaries:

John Wesley, Hardware + Mythbuntu: £425
processor:  Via C7
memory: 1 Gb
Hard Drive: 1.5 Tb
Optical drive:  None
Graphics:   VIA UniChromeTM Pro II 3D/2D AGP
 


*snip*

Without some research beforehand, I'd be very reluctant to use any Via
graphics chips in what is essentially a video specific application. I'd
be interested to hear others' experience of Via Chrome graphics chips if
I'm wrong.

Ad
   
I would 100% agree from my previous experience of Via motherboards and 
graphics chipsets. I used to have a Via SP13000 running my media PC 
performance was sluggish and horrible even from the supposedly 1.2ghz 
processor. The chipset drivers used to be a complete nightmare (even 
worse than now), but now openchrome drivers are included in a number of 
distros so you shouldn't have to worry about it, Fedora, Debian and 
Ubuntu all ship openchrome which should be fine.


MPEG2 playback on my system was with the openchrome driver and xvmc, but 
again hard to get working and playback quality wasn't great (my nvidia 
6200 gives better xvmc playback by miles, and that isn't even a current 
card VDPAU on a Ion platform or similar is better still) but it did 
achieve the goal of smooth framerate and only 20% CPU usage for 
broadcast SD tv.


No MPEG4 support without using the via drivers, and I would agree that 
most people would tell you to avoid it if at all possible.


I think that a via system would be viable for SD content, but HD is 
probably beyond the hardware mentioned above. If you want HD an Nvidia 
ION system is probably the way to go.


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Adam Sweet]

David Webb wrote:

> Also are there drivers for the 
> VIA CX700M2 graphics chip which is a key component.  The total price comes 
> out around £500 (without a blueray writer) which is a bit on the high side.

> Brief summaries:
> 
> John Wesley, Hardware + Mythbuntu: £425
>processor:  Via C7
>memory: 1 Gb
>Hard Drive: 1.5 Tb
>Optical drive:  None
>Graphics:   VIA UniChromeTM Pro II 3D/2D AGP

My experience with Via graphics under Linux is pretty poor. I have an HP
Mininote 2133 which uses a Via Chrome 9 HC graphics chip:

http://blog.adamsweet.org/?p=326

There are essentially 3 drivers, 2 from Via themselves, one of which is
open source, the other is proprietary and then there is the 3rd party
open source OpenChrome driver which is default in Ubuntu and I would
imagine most other distributions.

http://www.openchrome.org/

I can't say that the OpenChrome drivers for the 2 chips perform the same
since I've not used any other Chrome chips, but video playback is choppy
at best on the Chrome9 (though no doubt it is more of a cut down
graphics chip), however a Dell Mini 9 using the whatever graphics chip
was stock on that generation (Intel GMA 950?) of Atom motherboards was
fine until you full-screened the video. Comparing apples and oranges of
course. Discussion of Via drivers:

http://www.openchrome.org/trac/wiki/About

In particular applications which require MPEG2 and MPEG4 acceleration
must run as root with the Via drivers and they're full of security
holes. I'm told by another Wolves LUG member, that in general Via
drivers are generally horrific and not much better in terms of
functionality than the OpenChrome ones. And of course Via lag several
months behind distribution releases and only support targeted
distributions (Ubuntu, SLED). Currently the last Ubuntu release was in
December for 8.10.

Of course I did email them to explain that they should participate in
kernel development cycles or at least synchronise with distribution
release cycles and they ignored me. I really like the Mininote, but the
graphics drivers are a real let down.

Without some research beforehand, I'd be very reluctant to use any Via
graphics chips in what is essentially a video specific application. I'd
be interested to hear others' experience of Via Chrome graphics chips if
I'm wrong.

Ad

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Hugo Mills]

On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:51:26PM +0100, Rob Malpass wrote:
> Coming to this debate rather late - I've been looking for something that 
> will simply read files off my NAS and play them.   If it can do video then 
> great but I can't find a device anywhere that will read mp3s and play them 
> back through the TV when the mp3s aren't stored on a machine elsewhere 
> running itunes or wmp.   Are you saying a ps3 can do this?

   There's a whole bunch of things that will do this. The Popcorn Hour
A110 [1] is one. There's a Freecom device that will do it, too,
although they seem to have discontinued the line that I know about
(it's also sold as an AL Tech [2] MediaGate 350 or 450). TViX [3] have
a range of media players, too.

   All of the above devices will read directly from SMB shares. The
A110 and the TViX will read from NFS as well.

   Hugo.

[1] http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/
[2] http://www.airlinktek.com/english/product.php?prod=mg45
[3] http://www.tvix.co.kr/Eng/

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Rob Malpass]

- Original Message - 
From: "Samuel Penn" 
To: "Hampshire LUG Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?


> On Sunday 02 August 2009 19:53:59 Stuart Matheson wrote:
>> looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be plugged into a TV for
>> watching iplayer, youtube and other online video as well as video files 
>> and
>> possibly a dvd (I have an external dvd player she could use though so it
>> isn't a deal breaker).
>
> I use a PS3 for the above, including CD, DVD (not sure about region
> encoding) and Blu-ray. There is a bluetooth remote for video playback.
> Does web browsing as well (though some sites don't work so well). It's
> not the quietest thing ever, but I've found it quiet enough.
>
> Cheapness is relative. I've never used xbmc (or XBox/Wii), so can't
> compare it to them. I've also never used it on an SD TV.
>


Coming to this debate rather late - I've been looking for something that 
will simply read files off my NAS and play them.   If it can do video then 
great but I can't find a device anywhere that will read mp3s and play them 
back through the TV when the mp3s aren't stored on a machine elsewhere 
running itunes or wmp.   Are you saying a ps3 can do this?

Cheers
Rob 


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

On 08/04/2009 03:52 PM, David Webb wrote:

Stephen Rowles wrote:
   

You've missed my suggestions
 


My mistake - sorry about that.

No worries.

What is the position re Linux drivers?  Are
they the same NVidia ones as the Acer Aspire?

David
   


The drivers are exactly the same as for the Aspire, they are both Nvidia 
ION platform machine and the latest Nvidia binary drivers provide HD 
content off-load and audio out via the HDMI cable. They are almost the 
same machine, the advantage the ASRock ION-330 has is that it has a 
built in DVD-writer and uses the dual-core version of the Intel Atom chip.
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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[David Webb]

Stephen Rowles wrote:
>You've missed my suggestions

My mistake - sorry about that.  What is the position re Linux drivers?  Are 
they the same NVidia ones as the Acer Aspire?

David.



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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

On 08/04/2009 03:35 PM, Stephen Rowles wrote:
> ASRock Ion-330 (No OS)  £249.99 (svp.co.uk)
>  Processor:  Intel Atom (330 dual core)
>  Memory: 2 Gb (800 mhz)
>  Hard Drive: 320 Gb (2.5inch)
>  Optical drive:  DVD re-writer (slimline / laptop)
>  Graphics:   NVidia ION (Geforce 9400M equivalent)
>  Audio:  5.1 (with output over HDMI)
>  Monitor:None
>  Networking: Ethernet (RJ-45, Gigabit)
>  Controls:   None supplied.
>  Power supply:   65W adaptor
>  Audio/Video :   1 x D-sub VGA
>  1 x HDMI
>  Line in, Line out, Mic
>  Other ports:6 x USB 2.0
>  1 x S/PDIF (optical)
>  1 x Mini PCI express slot
>
>

Ops, spec. correction, there isn't a mini PCI express slot, silly copy 
and paste error.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

On 08/04/2009 02:42 PM, David Webb wrote:
> Anyway I wonder if we could start with these - as three levels which might
> attract interest - and then have suggestions about how they could be improved
> and what software would work together.  Maybe a winter meeting devoted
> to 'around the house' media systems would be useful.
>
You've missed my suggestions which I think is a better step up from the 
Acer Aspire, albeit more expensive:

ASRock Ion-330 (No OS)  £249.99 (svp.co.uk)
Processor:  Intel Atom (330 dual core)
Memory: 2 Gb (800 mhz)
Hard Drive: 320 Gb (2.5inch)
Optical drive:  DVD re-writer (slimline / laptop)
Graphics:   NVidia ION (Geforce 9400M equivalent)
Audio:  5.1 (with output over HDMI)
Monitor:None
Networking: Ethernet (RJ-45, Gigabit)
Controls:   None supplied.
Power supply:   65W adaptor
Audio/Video :   1 x D-sub VGA
1 x HDMI
Line in, Line out, Mic
Other ports:6 x USB 2.0
1 x S/PDIF (optical)
1 x Mini PCI express slot
TV Control: Keyboard?!! / remote (extra)
TV Receiver:USB stick required (extra)
Noise level:<  26dB
Dimensions: 195mm x 70mm x 186mm

http://www.asrock.com/nettop/spec/ION%20330.asp

For TV control for any PC based solution then Microsoft Media Centre remote 
(version 2) which simply attached via USB and is commonly used for things like 
MythTV, Freevo etc.






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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[David Webb]

I wonder if we can take this discussion a bit further - possibly expanding it 
so that it does not just cover the 'ultimate' system.

If there was a smart linux hardware+software package to fit neatly under the 
TV for less than £250 that could combine the roles of PVR, network interface 
and DVD writer (blue-ray for a bit extra?) then it could be a very attractive 
consumer product.  I see the Hants Wiki has thought a bit about the options 
but has not come up so far with any solutions.

Of the three main suggestions made in the current discussion, (I know nothing 
about the X-Box), John Wesleys seems to have the most options, but I query 
the power requirement (is 65 W high these days?), the TV tuner (freeview 
and/or freesat - USB stubs would look out of place) and most importantly the 
user interface (we really need a handheld).  Also are there drivers for the 
VIA CX700M2 graphics chip which is a key component.  The total price comes 
out around £500 (without a blueray writer) which is a bit on the high side.

In comparison Alan Pope's Acer Aspire seems much more cost effective - but 
does it need another box for the (twin) TV tuner and does it look right under 
the TV?  Is the power sufficient to handle two input and one output TV 
streams at once?  The great advantage with such a package is that the drivers 
should always work and problems like power/heat dissipation and hardware 
compatability should have been sorted out. 

Finally Hugo Mills' Popcorn Hour looks very professional but has none of the 
PVR properties which, from now on is likely to be considered essential.

Anyway I wonder if we could start with these - as three levels which might 
attract interest - and then have suggestions about how they could be improved 
and what software would work together.  Maybe a winter meeting devoted 
to 'around the house' media systems would be useful.

Regards,

David Webb

===
Brief summaries:

John Wesley, Hardware + Mythbuntu: £425
   processor:  Via C7
   memory: 1 Gb
   Hard Drive: 1.5 Tb
   Optical drive:  None
   Graphics:   VIA UniChromeTM Pro II 3D/2D AGP
   Monitor:None
   Networking: Ethernet (RJ-45)
   Firewire
   Controls:   Mouse and Keyboard
   Power supply:   65W adaptor
   Audio/Video:1 x DVI
   1 x RJ45
   1 x miniDIN (S-Video)
   1 x Triple RCA (composite video and steoeo)
   1 x Triple RCA (component video)
   1 x S/PDIF coaxial
   1 x S/PDIF optical
   Internal ports: 2 (+ 4) x USB
   1 x 1394
   1 Front panel audio header
   1 Audio line in header
   1 LPC header
   1 LVDS header
   1 TV out header for SCART and D-terminal
   1 video connector for VGA output
   1 x video input and SMBUS
   1 x PS2 mouse/keyboard header
   2 x SATA
   Other connectors: 2 x fan connectors
   1 x ATX power connector
   TV Control: Keyboard?!!
   TV Receiver:PCI Card


Alan Pope, Acer Aspire Revo Desktop PC + Linux(?)  £155.99
   Processor:  Intel Atom
   Memory: 1 Gb
   Hard Drive: 160 Gb
   Optical drive:  None
   Graphics:   NVidia IONth
   Monitor:None
   Networking: WiFi (802.11)
   Ethernet (RJ-45)
   Controls:   Mouse and Keyboard
   Power supply:   65W adaptor
   Audio/Video :   1 x D-sub VGA
   1 x HDMIth
   Headphones, Mike
   Other ports:6 x USB 2.0
   1 x eSATA
   1 x Mini PCI express slot
   TV Control: Keyboard?!!
   TV Receiver:mini PCI card?

Hugo Mills:  Popcorn Hour A-110, Syaba OS(?), $215 (£215?)
   Memory:  256 Mb
   Networking:  Ethernet
   Power:   12V (Less than 36 W)
   Audio/Video: HDMI v1.3a (up to 1080p)
Component Video
S-Video
Composite Video
Stereo Analog Audio
S/PDIF Optical Digital Audio
   Other ports: 1+2 USB
SATA
   TV Control:  Hand held remote control
   TV Receiver: The system streams data from the www, other computers and 
attached storage.  It is not clear of it can also act like a PVR and record 
from digital TV input, say via a receiver connected to a USB port.
==



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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stuart Sears]

On 03/08/09 23:43, Alastair Biggs wrote:
> I was looking at investing in a Popcorn Hour after reading a review in Linux 
> Format, Is it anygood at handling HD movies?
>
> Alternative option I had was to setup a shuttle or a mini-itx system and use 
> geexbox as the hub for control of media.
>
> But I am really tempted to get a Popcorn Hour worthwhile investment?

Possibly.

I have one of these (not a PC** per se, but rather good, actually...):

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=572

Smaller than any of my (powered) USB hard disks and about £80  as an 
experiment from PC World (yes, really!) when my tranquilpc decided that 
enough was enough and no longer boots (I still have hopes of rescuing 
that, though. Nice kit.)

I flashed the wdtv with the ext3-boot firmware. Plug in a USB drive and 
go - it has component and HDMI/toslink out for video/audio.

Mine has a 7-port powered USB hub attached and several USB drives - 
which work marvellously.
Full of my music collection (mostly flac and ogg, with some of the evil 
mp3, slowly being replaced) and collection of ripped DVDs.

The ext3-boot firmware will also do network-based streaming, with an 
additional USB network device (not included). That's the next experiment 
for me. Possibly a usb wireless device (although more likely ethernet as 
the switch is within easy reach)

About the only thing it doesn't do is timeshift/record live telly. But 
then I don't care about that sort of thing. :)


Regards,

Stuart

** although it does run linux and the firmware is all GPL :)
-- 
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"It's today!" said Piglet.
"My favourite day," said Pooh.


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Hugo Mills]

On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 10:43:09PM +, Alastair Biggs wrote:
> I was looking at investing in a Popcorn Hour after reading a review
> in Linux Format, Is it anygood at handling HD movies?

   I don't have an HD TV, so the point is difficult for me to answer
satisfactorily. However, I did try playing some HD (1080p) content on
it recently, and it seemed to cope with that plus the down-scaling to
SD very well. That was playing over NFS, on a 100Mbit/s cabled
ethernet connection, using the composite video output to the TV.

   Hugo.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Alastair Biggs]

I was looking at investing in a Popcorn Hour after reading a review in Linux 
Format, Is it anygood at handling HD movies? 

Alternative option I had was to setup a shuttle or a mini-itx system and use 
geexbox as the hub for control of media.

But I am really tempted to get a Popcorn Hour worthwhile investment?

> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:52:03 +0100
> From: h...@carfax.org.uk
> To: hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?
> 
> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 07:53:59PM +0100, Stuart Matheson wrote:
> > My girlfriend is moving out of her current splace and will no longer have
> > access to the expert she had there (ie someone with an xbox with xbmc). I'm
> > looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be plugged into a TV for watching
> > iplayer, youtube and other online video as well as video files and possibly
> > a dvd (I have an external dvd player she could use though so it isn't a deal
> > breaker). She said the xbox was quite noisy though so she'd like something
> > quiet. Something that shouldn't have much trouble running something like
> > xbmc (which she is familiar with, or any other easy to use program) and can
> > connect to a SD tv would be great. A remote will also likely be required. An
> > internal or external HDD would be fine as I have one spare. She is also
> > interested in wii fit so a nintendo might be an option, but I have no idea
> > if it would fit the bill in regards to the other requirements.
> > 
> > What can people recommend for this (unit and remote)? It doesn't necessary
> > have to be brand new so 2nd hand laptops/refurbished PCs aren't out of the
> > question. Like most people (or in her case, public servants) she is pretty
> > skint so the cheaper the better.
> 
>I'm not certain if this will be suitable for your needs, but I have
> a Popcorn Hour A110[1] here. I use it mostly for playing TV I've
> recorded off-air with a DVB USB stick in a separate machine.
> 
>It plays almost everything that I've tried on it (barring DVB
> MPEG-2 transport streams, oddly); it can pull content from Samba, NFS,
> FTP and UPnP servers, from its internal HD, or from external USB HDs,
> off any of the three USB ports. Barring any hard disk noise, if you
> have one installed, it's completely silent, with no fans.
> 
>The user interface is web-based, and is documented and somewhat
> hackable. It can visit remote websites and display them, although its
> built-in browser is of limited capabilities. It explicitly states that
> it supports YouTube, but doesn't mention iPlayer. It can handle
> BitTorrent downloads as well, if you have a hard disk in it. There is
> a reasonable set of third-party applications built around the
> machine[2], too.
> 
>My only complaints to date are that it seems to be quite hard to do
> playlists for audio material, and that I've had some trouble with the
> reverse button.
> 
>Hugo.
> 
> [1] http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/index.php?pluginoption=catalog
> [2] http://www.networkedmediatank.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
> 
> -- 
> === Hugo Mills: h...@... carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk ===
>   PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk
>--- Hail and greetings.  We are a flat-pack invasion force from ---   
>  Planet Ikea. We come in pieces. 

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stuart Matheson]

This looks interesting although her telly doesn't have a HDMI port :(

I might have to look for a cheap 2nd hand laptop. A dead battery (whilst
being the norm for this kind of item) wouldn't be a problem.

2009/8/3 Alan Pope 

> Hi Stuart,
>
> 2009/8/2 Stuart Matheson :
> > What can people recommend for this (unit and remote)? It doesn't
> necessary
> > have to be brand new so 2nd hand laptops/refurbished PCs aren't out of
> the
> > question. Like most people (or in her case, public servants) she is
> pretty
> > skint so the cheaper the better.
> >
>
> I just bought one of these:-
>
> http://www.ebuyer.com/product/161260
>
> ..to sit under the telly.
>
> Vitals include 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU and Nvidia ION GPU (9400 equiv
> roughly), silent operation (unless you put your ear right up to it),
> 6xUSB, eSata, VGA, HDMI, ethernet, wifi, memory card slot, headphones
> and mic. It can supposedly playback 1080p video, but I've not got to
> that bit yet, having just finished installing Ubuntu on it :)
>
> My choices now are Boxee, MythTV and XBMC. All of which should provide
> me with an easy to use interface for watching recorded programmes and
> iplayer on the telly in the lounge. The one thing I don't have yet is
> a remote control, but I hear that's easy to resolve with a Microsoft
> Media Centre remote control.
>
> Cheers,
> Al.
>
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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Chris Dennis]

Philip Stubbs wrote:
> 2009/8/3 Dave Walker :
>> As a Mythbuntu co-founder and a member of the MythTV packages on Ubuntu
>> team, i am kind of shocked with this response.
> 
> Ok, I like MythTV. It is almost ideal for what I want, and is by far
> the closest thing to a perfect fit for me. However, why is it such a
> PITA to setup the channels? Or am I doing something wrong? The only
> time I have had it working well was when I manually edited the
> channels table in the database using the information from a
> channels.conf file.
> 
> Maybe I am missing a trick. However, I have recently tried Kaffine,
> and to setup the channels on that was a breeze. If MythTV could setup
> its channels as easily, I would be a happy man! :-)
> 
> This may not be such an issue if the channels did not frequently swap
> around in the run-up to 2012.
> 
I agree absolutely.  Every time I retune I end up messing about with 
scripts and SQL, but never really come up with a proper solution.  There 
must be someone in the UK who has cracked this.

cheers

Chris

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Hugo Mills]

On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 07:53:59PM +0100, Stuart Matheson wrote:
> My girlfriend is moving out of her current splace and will no longer have
> access to the expert she had there (ie someone with an xbox with xbmc). I'm
> looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be plugged into a TV for watching
> iplayer, youtube and other online video as well as video files and possibly
> a dvd (I have an external dvd player she could use though so it isn't a deal
> breaker). She said the xbox was quite noisy though so she'd like something
> quiet. Something that shouldn't have much trouble running something like
> xbmc (which she is familiar with, or any other easy to use program) and can
> connect to a SD tv would be great. A remote will also likely be required. An
> internal or external HDD would be fine as I have one spare. She is also
> interested in wii fit so a nintendo might be an option, but I have no idea
> if it would fit the bill in regards to the other requirements.
> 
> What can people recommend for this (unit and remote)? It doesn't necessary
> have to be brand new so 2nd hand laptops/refurbished PCs aren't out of the
> question. Like most people (or in her case, public servants) she is pretty
> skint so the cheaper the better.

   I'm not certain if this will be suitable for your needs, but I have
a Popcorn Hour A110[1] here. I use it mostly for playing TV I've
recorded off-air with a DVB USB stick in a separate machine.

   It plays almost everything that I've tried on it (barring DVB
MPEG-2 transport streams, oddly); it can pull content from Samba, NFS,
FTP and UPnP servers, from its internal HD, or from external USB HDs,
off any of the three USB ports. Barring any hard disk noise, if you
have one installed, it's completely silent, with no fans.

   The user interface is web-based, and is documented and somewhat
hackable. It can visit remote websites and display them, although its
built-in browser is of limited capabilities. It explicitly states that
it supports YouTube, but doesn't mention iPlayer. It can handle
BitTorrent downloads as well, if you have a hard disk in it. There is
a reasonable set of third-party applications built around the
machine[2], too.

   My only complaints to date are that it seems to be quite hard to do
playlists for audio material, and that I've had some trouble with the
reverse button.

   Hugo.

[1] http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/index.php?pluginoption=catalog
[2] http://www.networkedmediatank.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Philip Stubbs]

2009/8/3 Dave Walker :
> As a Mythbuntu co-founder and a member of the MythTV packages on Ubuntu
> team, i am kind of shocked with this response.

Ok, I like MythTV. It is almost ideal for what I want, and is by far
the closest thing to a perfect fit for me. However, why is it such a
PITA to setup the channels? Or am I doing something wrong? The only
time I have had it working well was when I manually edited the
channels table in the database using the information from a
channels.conf file.

Maybe I am missing a trick. However, I have recently tried Kaffine,
and to setup the channels on that was a breeze. If MythTV could setup
its channels as easily, I would be a happy man! :-)

This may not be such an issue if the channels did not frequently swap
around in the run-up to 2012.

-- 
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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Dave Walker]

Vic wrote:



>
> For each lump of code you want to add to your kernel, you create a DKMS
> configuration file. This describes what code is to be built, and how.
>
> At boot time, the DKMS manager inspects the list of known things against
> the kernel just booted. Any that aren't available are built then and
> there, and added to the available modules.
>
> It's really pretty simple...
>
>   
.. bash script :)

I recently started moving a kernel module package towards DKMS.. and it
really is a case of creating a dkms.conf file, and a simple amendment to
postinst & prerm, and the DKMS bash script does the rest :).

Kind Regards,
Dave Walker

Kind Regards,
Dave Walker

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Vic]

> Ok, I don't fully understand DKMS, but how does it help when you have
> downloaded a source tree from git and compiled and installed the modules
> it creates? I thought it only helped if you had installed a proper DKMS
> package?

For each lump of code you want to add to your kernel, you create a DKMS
configuration file. This describes what code is to be built, and how.

At boot time, the DKMS manager inspects the list of known things against
the kernel just booted. Any that aren't available are built then and
there, and added to the available modules.

It's really pretty simple...

Vic.


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

On 08/03/2009 01:23 PM, Vic wrote:

We have DKMS in Ubuntu
 


...and everywhere else as well.

DKMS isn't quite as clean as it might be - but it does give the lie to all
those waily "you've got to recompile the kernel just to use Linux" FUDs...

Vic.
   


Ok, I don't fully understand DKMS, but how does it help when you have 
downloaded a source tree from git and compiled and installed the modules 
it creates? I thought it only helped if you had installed a proper DKMS 
package?
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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Imran Chaudhry]

> My girlfriend is moving out of her current splace and will no longer have
> access to the expert she had there (ie someone with an xbox with xbmc). I'm
> looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be plugged into a TV for watching
> iplayer, youtube and other online video as well as video files and possibly
> a dvd (I have an external dvd player she could use though so it isn't a deal
> breaker). She said the xbox was quite noisy though so she'd like something
> quiet. Something that shouldn't have much trouble running something like
> xbmc (which she is familiar with, or any other easy to use program) and can
> connect to a SD tv would be great. A remote will also likely be required. An
> internal or external HDD would be fine as I have one spare. She is also
> interested in wii fit so a nintendo might be an option, but I have no idea
> if it would fit the bill in regards to the other requirements.
>
> What can people recommend for this (unit and remote)? It doesn't necessary
> have to be brand new so 2nd hand laptops/refurbished PCs aren't out of the
> question. Like most people (or in her case, public servants) she is pretty
> skint so the cheaper the better.
>
> All suggestions welcome :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stuart

Hi Stuart,

I'd look at XBMC on XBox again - I recently upgraded XBMC to a 2009
build from a 2007 build. With features like HDD spindown timeout and
acoustic management for the fans - it's now alot more quiet than
before. There's also some new power management features available that
I never noticed before. I never notice the XBox being on now. If you
have a glass-door type AV cabinet for your gear then placing it in
there would help further. You can pick-up an Xbox extremely cheap
these days. Your local Game or Gamestation outlet should have some for
£20 or less. Check car boot sales - I bought a modded Xbox + 120Gb HDD
installed with XBMC for £4 with a little haggling (you can't return it
if it's a dud!). Modding it is of course another matter!

I never really watch YouTube, iPlayer etc on XBMC although I have
played with plugins that do that. I would advise a cheap 2nd hand
wireless G laptop with at least a P4 if streaming is your main diet.

Regarding the Wii - I have heard of media center software available
for that but I have no idea on how they perform.

Hope that helps!
Imran

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

On 08/03/2009 12:30 PM, Stephen Davies wrote:
> I am puzzled by one of the responses to this thread.
>
> If you have to build some kernel modules and it is a real PITA when the
> kernel is upgraded to get it all working again
>   then as this is a Media Centre and therefore a pretty statically
> defined system then why are you doing upgrades to the kernel etc if
> everything works and is not broken?
>
> This constant need to upgrade (&  Possibly break) working systems is
> always feels a bit wrong to me. If it ain't broke then don't fix it
> seems to be about right here.
> Ok, if there are problems with say MythTV and a new release fixes them
> fine buat as I say, if it is all working fine, then why upgrade?
>
> Stephen D

For me there were 2 reasons to need upgrades.

1) Security - the box in question is visible over my adsl line to allow 
access to my media and to allow TV guide browsing / remote record. As 
such I need to keep up to date with security fixes to minimise the 
chance of my box being compromised. From time to time these require a 
kernel upgrade, which in turn required the re-building of the kernel 
modules. Even if I wasn't allowing remote access in to the box, as it 
has a web browser installed I would want to keep up to date with 
security fixes in case of a browser based security flaw.

2) Fixing other bugs in other software. After your machine has been 
installed for a while you can eventually be forced into a kernel upgrade 
to get the rest of the package dependencies to an appropriate level to 
get the latest patched application you require. There were also a number 
of kernel USB issues around the same time as I was trying to get my USB 
based TV tuner working and some of the issues with the stick were blamed 
on the kernel USB stack which really did force an upgrade and then 
re-compile to try and get things working.

As a side note getting my media centre working, in the early days, was 
the biggest pain I have ever encountered in Linux. There were several 
points that I nearly gave up and just bought a copy of windows media 
centre to stop all the hassle. It originally took months of blood 
(literally in the case of one of the hardware installs), sweat and tears 
getting it working.

Now it is much less hassle and there are a number of live distributions 
that help, but I'm still not sure I'd want to recommend it as a 
"solution" to someone who doesn't know how to get under the covers and 
sort problems out when the occur.


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Vic]

> We have DKMS in Ubuntu

...and everywhere else as well.

DKMS isn't quite as clean as it might be - but it does give the lie to all
those waily "you've got to recompile the kernel just to use Linux" FUDs...

Vic.




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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Alan Pope]

2009/8/3 Stephen Davies :
> If you have to build some kernel modules and it is a real PITA when the
> kernel is upgraded to get it all working again

We have DKMS in Ubuntu so I don't think this is quite the issue it has
been in the past. Out of kernel modules get recompiled when the kernel
gets updated. This process is pretty much seamless and has worked for
me for things like VirtualBox networking driver and the Nvidia
proprietary video driver.

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Hugo Mills]

On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 12:46:19PM +0100, Dave Walker wrote:
> Regarding media, the ONLY codec i have had issues with is on high-def
> .mkv (Makarov), however - currently the limitation is on MY hardware

   Minor nit-picks: MKV is Matroksa (Matryoshka), not Makarov. It's a
container format, not a codec or a video format. In this case, HD
video content will probably be MPEG-4 Part 10 format (also known as
AVC or H.264), typically handled by the x264 codec.

   Hugo.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Dave Walker]

pavithran wrote:

> Hi ,
> Buy a CPU with a nice TV tuner card and good graphic card .
> Install http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_Center and enjoy :D
>
> Yes I am suggesting someone to use a proprietary software in a linux
> list but I am afraid that there is no *viable* FOSS alternative :(
>
> This is because of many reasons :
> * Bad Hardware vendors who don't write free drivers .
> *Many proprietary video formats
> *lack of video standards ( Yes MPEG is a ISO standard but mp3,divx thrive )
> etc etc etc
>
> Since you are installing it for a non tech user you better give a
> software which even if updated wont ever break . Yes GNU/Linux updates
> are great but when it comes to some proprietary
> driver/software/plugin/hack updates tend to break more often .
>
> All the best and do inform us how it goes .
>
> Regards,
> Pavithran
>
>   

Hi,

As a Mythbuntu co-founder and a member of the MythTV packages on Ubuntu
team, i am kind of shocked with this response.

Generally television is MPEG(*), normally natively via DVB-*.

Regarding media, the ONLY codec i have had issues with is on high-def
.mkv (Makarov), however - currently the limitation is on MY hardware
rather than the software.  Please find me another format that is in use,
that I cannot view - as i'm confident you will not be able to.  Mythtv
regularly imports a merge from ffmpeg, so benefits from that projects
really rather awesome support.  Further,  Mythtv supports (and sometimes
recommends)  loading an external player (such as Xine), and that is
handled cleanly.  However, i use the Internal player for pretty much
everything.  This includes the MORE common XviD format, and playing mp3's.

It's worth noting the following response I got from a Hardware DVB-S2-CI
card manufacturer which i was in recent email correspondence with, they
stated: 
"The card has been initially designed for the professional market, that
is why the main and the only driver is for Linux. No Windows support is
planned because not required."

In regards to Mythtv on Ubuntu, we go to great measures to ensure that
upgrades (if required) are as clean as possible.  Seeing FUD like the
above, really is a slap in the face.  Thanks.

Kind Regards,
Dave Walker


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Davies]

I am puzzled by one of the responses to this thread.

If you have to build some kernel modules and it is a real PITA when the 
kernel is upgraded to get it all working again
 then as this is a Media Centre and therefore a pretty statically 
defined system then why are you doing upgrades to the kernel etc if 
everything works and is not broken?

This constant need to upgrade (& Possibly break) working systems is 
always feels a bit wrong to me. If it ain't broke then don't fix it 
seems to be about right here.
Ok, if there are problems with say MythTV and a new release fixes them 
fine buat as I say, if it is all working fine, then why upgrade?

Stephen D




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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Paul Stimpson]

Hi,

I would try some of the alternatives mentioned here but if you can't find one 
that works for her and she likes XBMC have you considered XBMC on an xbox again?

Second hand Xbox 1.6 crystal £50
Chip / getting it chipped £30-50
Big hard drive £60
XBMC software £free from xbins

Cheers,
Paul. 


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

On 08/03/2009 10:47 AM, Stephen Rowles wrote:
> Or if you don't want to build it yourself:
>
> http://www.svp.co.uk/systems-pcs/value/pc-asrock-ion-330-pc-system-no-os-black_mte-01011.html
>
> Dual core ion system, tiny case, from all reports it is silent in 
> operation. Uses NVIDIA's ION platform so you can run VDPAU to offload 
> all the graphics load for high def content (1080p). It is dual core so 
> should be reasonably OK for you tube content etc.

Grr, teach me to read the original post properly! This system won't 
connect to an analogue TV, it would be brilliant for an LCD TV or 
computer monitor though :).

Sorry.

Steve.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

On 08/03/2009 10:31 AM, John Wesley wrote:
2009/8/2 Stuart Matheson >


Hi Everyone,

I did a quick search of the HantsLUG list and couldn't find
anything appropriate so please let me know if I've missed something.

My girlfriend is moving out of her current splace and will no
longer have access to the expert she had there (ie someone with an
xbox with xbmc). I'm looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be
plugged into a TV for watching iplayer, youtube and other online
video as well as video files and possibly a dvd (I have an
external dvd player she could use though so it isn't a deal
breaker). She said the xbox was quite noisy though so she'd like
something quiet. Something that shouldn't have much trouble
running something like xbmc (which she is familiar with, or any
other easy to use program) and can connect to a SD tv would be
great. A remote will also likely be required. An internal or
external HDD would be fine as I have one spare. She is also
interested in wii fit so a nintendo might be an option, but I have
no idea if it would fit the bill in regards to the other requirements.

What can people recommend for this (unit and remote)? It doesn't
necessary have to be brand new so 2nd hand laptops/refurbished PCs
aren't out of the question. Like most people (or in her case,
public servants) she is pretty skint so the cheaper the better.

All suggestions welcome :)

Cheers,

Stuart


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I spec'd up something that does this (and is intended to be a PVR too) 
over the weekend, though it's probably overkill for what you really want:


motherboard: http://linitx.com/viewproduct.php?prodid=11471 (£140)
case: http://linitx.com/viewproduct.php?prodid=12418  (£50)
hard drive: http://linitx.com/viewcategory.php?catid=105&pp=100,105 
 (£100)
keyboard: 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Logitech-920-00586-diNovo-Mini/dp/B0012NIYSO (£90)

memory: http://linitx.com/viewproduct.php?prodid=11106 (£15)

tv card: 
http://www.dabs.com/products/hauppauge-wintv-nova-t-digital-dvb-t-usb-stick-42PG.html 
(£30) -- probably not required for this


Install Mythbuntu and you're done

ta

jonh (trying desperately to ignore the WMC flamewar)




Or if you don't want to build it yourself:

http://www.svp.co.uk/systems-pcs/value/pc-asrock-ion-330-pc-system-no-os-black_mte-01011.html

Dual core ion system, tiny case, from all reports it is silent in 
operation. Uses NVIDIA's ION platform so you can run VDPAU to offload 
all the graphics load for high def content (1080p). It is dual core so 
should be reasonably OK for you tube content etc.


For remote the easiest to get working is probably the MCE version 2 remote:

You need the one that looks like this, I couldn't find a shop I know 
that sells them on-line


http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=mce+remote&oe=utf-8&hl=en&cid=7426765364015426615&sa=title#p

The USB tv card linked by John works for me, but I have a friend who 
runs one any has a world of pain with kernel and usb issues.


http://www.dabs.com/products/hauppauge-wintv-nova-t-digital-dvb-t-usb-stick-42PG.html



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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stephen Rowles]

On 08/03/2009 09:41 AM, Alan Pope wrote:

Hi Pavithran,

2009/8/2 pavithran:
   

Yes I am suggesting someone to use a proprietary software in a linux
list but I am afraid that there is no *viable* FOSS alternative :(


Untrue. MythTV, Boxee and XBMC are all (for the most part) FOSS
alternatives to Windows Media Centre.
   


As much as I hate to agree with someone suggesting Media Centre

I've not used Windows Media Centre, but for a non-guru all of those 
"alternatives" above are a REAL pita to install configure and maintain. 
I use Freevo at home but there is no way I would recommend a Linux media 
centre to anyone who doesn't really understand Linux and is happy to get 
their hands dirty. XBMC is by far the best of the bunch both in terms of 
support and features, however it DOESN'T do TV (well not without some 
nasty hard to configure hacks to make it use a Myth backend).



This is because of many reasons :
* Bad Hardware vendors who don't write free drivers .
 


So vote with your feet and buy hardware that _is_ supported. There is
a lot of it about. Also worth noting that Linux based systems support
_more_ hardware out of the box than _any_ other operating system,
including Windows, OSX and BSD (and BeOS, Haiku, OS/2...).
   


Have you tried finding and actually getting hold of such hardware in the 
UK? I spend a long time researching, asking questions on the extremely 
unhelpful linux-dvb mailing list and eventually bought what I thought 
was a supported piece of hardware, only to discover I'd got it wrong and 
I had to wait approximately 6months before support was even vaguely 
there. I suffered months of having to download source snapshots and 
build my own kernel modules which then needed to be rebuilt every time 
the kernel was updated.


The really good hardware with Linux support is stupidly expensive, and 
almost impossible to find in the UK, my best chance so far is shipping 
it in from Germany and paying seriously over the odds for the privilege.


The other problem is that manufactures often ship revised versions of 
known good hardware, which subsequently doesn't work in Linux. Your only 
real bet is to try and find a small shop someone sell old and out of 
date hardware which will probably work ;)



*Many proprietary video formats
 


I'd be interested to know exactly which proprietary video formats the
FOSS media player VLC can't play. With VLC and MPlayer I don't think
I've yet come across a format they wont play.

I think you'll find that FOSS also supports way more codecs than most
proprietary solutions. Windows for example doesn't support
OGG/Theora/Vorbis, DIVX or H.264 out of the box. Most Linux distros
these days can install codecs very easily.
   


I would agree with VLC, but it doesn't have good hardware acceleration, 
meaning you have to throw a seriously fast CPU at it to ensure you can 
get playback of the more demanding video codecs. This doesn't go well 
with finding a small low noise box to sit under the TV. MPlayer is good 
but you need a very up to date version, usually compiled from source to 
use the latest acceleration from Nvidia (VDPAU) which is pretty much 
required to get a decent media centre experience.



*lack of video standards ( Yes MPEG is a ISO standard but mp3,divx thrive )
 


There are many standards for video compression, and (as outlined
above) they pretty much all work on Linux. Which ones don't


The all work, but varying degrees of actually "work". If all you need is 
to play back an mpeg video, yes it all works, if you want sensible fast 
forward and rewind functions (which you find an all the most basic DVD 
players) then you are completely out of luck with any Linux system, 
except for XBMC but it doesn't do TV so is no good for me :(


Linux media centres are great, flexible and powerful, but they are a 
complete PITA to get working and setup and are very fragile once you do 
eventually get them working.


Now I've not used Windows Media Centre, but I find it hard to believe it 
can be worse ;)


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[John Wesley]

2009/8/2 Stuart Matheson 

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I did a quick search of the HantsLUG list and couldn't find anything
> appropriate so please let me know if I've missed something.
>
> My girlfriend is moving out of her current splace and will no longer have
> access to the expert she had there (ie someone with an xbox with xbmc). I'm
> looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be plugged into a TV for watching
> iplayer, youtube and other online video as well as video files and possibly
> a dvd (I have an external dvd player she could use though so it isn't a deal
> breaker). She said the xbox was quite noisy though so she'd like something
> quiet. Something that shouldn't have much trouble running something like
> xbmc (which she is familiar with, or any other easy to use program) and can
> connect to a SD tv would be great. A remote will also likely be required. An
> internal or external HDD would be fine as I have one spare. She is also
> interested in wii fit so a nintendo might be an option, but I have no idea
> if it would fit the bill in regards to the other requirements.
>
> What can people recommend for this (unit and remote)? It doesn't necessary
> have to be brand new so 2nd hand laptops/refurbished PCs aren't out of the
> question. Like most people (or in her case, public servants) she is pretty
> skint so the cheaper the better.
>
> All suggestions welcome :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stuart
>
>
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> Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk
> Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire
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> --
>

I spec'd up something that does this (and is intended to be a PVR too) over
the weekend, though it's probably overkill for what you really want:

motherboard: http://linitx.com/viewproduct.php?prodid=11471 (£140)
case: http://linitx.com/viewproduct.php?prodid=12418  (£50)
hard drive: http://linitx.com/viewcategory.php?catid=105&pp=100,105 (£100)
keyboard:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Logitech-920-00586-diNovo-Mini/dp/B0012NIYSO (£90)
memory: http://linitx.com/viewproduct.php?prodid=11106 (£15)

tv card:
http://www.dabs.com/products/hauppauge-wintv-nova-t-digital-dvb-t-usb-stick-42PG.html(£30)
-- probably not required for this

Install Mythbuntu and you're done

ta

jonh (trying desperately to ignore the WMC flamewar)
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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Hugo Mills]

On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 11:32:46PM +0100, pavithran wrote:
> *lack of video standards ( Yes MPEG is a ISO standard but mp3,divx thrive )
> etc etc etc

   MP3 and DivX *are* standardised:

   MP3 is MPEG-1 audio layer 3, a profile of the MPEG-1 standards[1].

   DivX is not a video format; it is a video codec. However, it
implements a profile of MPEG-4 part 2 [2].

   Hugo.

[1] ISO 11172-3
[2] ISO 14496-2

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Vic]

> Install http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_Center and enjoy :D

You are having a laugh. The only people who *enjoy* WMC are those of us
who get paid for fixing it.

> Yes I am suggesting someone to use a proprietary software in a linux
> list but I am afraid that there is no *viable* FOSS alternative :(

As others have said - that's total bobbins. There is an embarrassment of
alternatives. That you choose to claim otherwise speaks volumes...

> This is because of many reasons :
> * Bad Hardware vendors who don't write free drivers .
> *Many proprietary video formats
> *lack of video standards ( Yes MPEG is a ISO standard but mp3,divx thrive
> )
> etc etc etc

Errr - "Cobblers", etc etc etc

> Since you are installing it for a non tech user you better give a
> software which even if updated wont ever break

And you recommend Windows? *Snort* *Giggle* *Guffaw*.

> Yes GNU/Linux updates
> are great but when it comes to some proprietary
> driver/software/plugin/hack updates tend to break more often .

So don't use proprietary software. Stick to FLOSS and life is so much easier.

But that's two extremely provocative and technically incorrect posts
you've made in the last couple of days - are you a professional troll?

Vic.


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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Alan Pope]

Hi Pavithran,

2009/8/2 pavithran :
> Yes I am suggesting someone to use a proprietary software in a linux
> list but I am afraid that there is no *viable* FOSS alternative :(
>

Untrue. MythTV, Boxee and XBMC are all (for the most part) FOSS
alternatives to Windows Media Centre.

> This is because of many reasons :
> * Bad Hardware vendors who don't write free drivers .

So vote with your feet and buy hardware that _is_ supported. There is
a lot of it about. Also worth noting that Linux based systems support
_more_ hardware out of the box than _any_ other operating system,
including Windows, OSX and BSD (and BeOS, Haiku, OS/2...).

> *Many proprietary video formats

I'd be interested to know exactly which proprietary video formats the
FOSS media player VLC can't play. With VLC and MPlayer I don't think
I've yet come across a format they wont play.

I think you'll find that FOSS also supports way more codecs than most
proprietary solutions. Windows for example doesn't support
OGG/Theora/Vorbis, DIVX or H.264 out of the box. Most Linux distros
these days can install codecs very easily.

> *lack of video standards ( Yes MPEG is a ISO standard but mp3,divx thrive )

There are many standards for video compression, and (as outlined
above) they pretty much all work on Linux. Which ones don't?

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Alan Pope]

Hi Stuart,

2009/8/2 Stuart Matheson :
> What can people recommend for this (unit and remote)? It doesn't necessary
> have to be brand new so 2nd hand laptops/refurbished PCs aren't out of the
> question. Like most people (or in her case, public servants) she is pretty
> skint so the cheaper the better.
>

I just bought one of these:-

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/161260

..to sit under the telly.

Vitals include 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU and Nvidia ION GPU (9400 equiv
roughly), silent operation (unless you put your ear right up to it),
6xUSB, eSata, VGA, HDMI, ethernet, wifi, memory card slot, headphones
and mic. It can supposedly playback 1080p video, but I've not got to
that bit yet, having just finished installing Ubuntu on it :)

My choices now are Boxee, MythTV and XBMC. All of which should provide
me with an easy to use interface for watching recorded programmes and
iplayer on the telly in the lounge. The one thing I don't have yet is
a remote control, but I hear that's easy to resolve with a Microsoft
Media Centre remote control.

Cheers,
Al.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Jacqui Caren]

Keith Edmunds wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 23:32:46 +0100, pavithra...@gmail.com said:
> 
>> you better give a
>> software which even if updated wont ever break
> 
> You're talking about Windows upgrades never breaking? 
> 
> I'm speechless.

I would *never* recommend Windows Media edition over soemthing like mythTV
even if the owner has a stack of windows games DVD's :-)

For a start MythTv et.al run on low end hardware and cheap TVcards while
MSM requires not only a limited range of high end TV cards but also
one of a limited range fo high end video cards.

I will not even mention DRM and processors/memory requriements.

OK you cannot just walk into a local PC shop and buy a card for MythTV
but them who in their right mind buys stuff on the high street unless
they have to?

Of course, the WinMedia "wont ever break" could be some form of joke
but I have to say I dont get it. IMHO windows media centre is just one
very large security hole.

Jacqui

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Keith Edmunds]

On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 23:32:46 +0100, pavithra...@gmail.com said:

> you better give a
> software which even if updated wont ever break

You're talking about Windows upgrades never breaking? 

I'm speechless.

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[pavithran]

2009/8/2 Stuart Matheson :

> My girlfriend is moving out of her current splace and will no longer have
> access to the expert she had there (ie someone with an xbox with xbmc). I'm
> looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be plugged into a TV for watching
> iplayer, youtube and other online video as well as video files and possibly
> a dvd (I have an external dvd player she could use though so it isn't a deal
> breaker). She said the xbox was quite noisy though so she'd like something
> quiet. Something that shouldn't have much trouble running something like
> xbmc (which she is familiar with, or any other easy to use program) and can
> connect to a SD tv would be great. A remote will also likely be required. An
> internal or external HDD would be fine as I have one spare. She is also
> interested in wii fit so a nintendo might be an option, but I have no idea
> if it would fit the bill in regards to the other requirements.
Hi ,
Buy a CPU with a nice TV tuner card and good graphic card .
Install http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_Center and enjoy :D

Yes I am suggesting someone to use a proprietary software in a linux
list but I am afraid that there is no *viable* FOSS alternative :(

This is because of many reasons :
* Bad Hardware vendors who don't write free drivers .
*Many proprietary video formats
*lack of video standards ( Yes MPEG is a ISO standard but mp3,divx thrive )
etc etc etc

Since you are installing it for a non tech user you better give a
software which even if updated wont ever break . Yes GNU/Linux updates
are great but when it comes to some proprietary
driver/software/plugin/hack updates tend to break more often .

All the best and do inform us how it goes .

Regards,
Pavithran

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Re: [Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Samuel Penn]

On Sunday 02 August 2009 19:53:59 Stuart Matheson wrote:
> looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be plugged into a TV for
> watching iplayer, youtube and other online video as well as video files and
> possibly a dvd (I have an external dvd player she could use though so it
> isn't a deal breaker).

I use a PS3 for the above, including CD, DVD (not sure about region
encoding) and Blu-ray. There is a bluetooth remote for video playback.
Does web browsing as well (though some sites don't work so well). It's
not the quietest thing ever, but I've found it quiet enough.

Cheapness is relative. I've never used xbmc (or XBox/Wii), so can't
compare it to them. I've also never used it on an SD TV.

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[Hampshire] Ultimate Linux Media PC?

[Stuart Matheson]

Hi Everyone,

I did a quick search of the HantsLUG list and couldn't find anything
appropriate so please let me know if I've missed something.

My girlfriend is moving out of her current splace and will no longer have
access to the expert she had there (ie someone with an xbox with xbmc). I'm
looking for a quiet multimedia PC that can be plugged into a TV for watching
iplayer, youtube and other online video as well as video files and possibly
a dvd (I have an external dvd player she could use though so it isn't a deal
breaker). She said the xbox was quite noisy though so she'd like something
quiet. Something that shouldn't have much trouble running something like
xbmc (which she is familiar with, or any other easy to use program) and can
connect to a SD tv would be great. A remote will also likely be required. An
internal or external HDD would be fine as I have one spare. She is also
interested in wii fit so a nintendo might be an option, but I have no idea
if it would fit the bill in regards to the other requirements.

What can people recommend for this (unit and remote)? It doesn't necessary
have to be brand new so 2nd hand laptops/refurbished PCs aren't out of the
question. Like most people (or in her case, public servants) she is pretty
skint so the cheaper the better.

All suggestions welcome :)

Cheers,

Stuart
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