RE: [hlcoders] Mods on CD?
Doesn't Fileplanet do this in effect anyway? Where you have the option on the site to 'mail a cd' to yourself with the files you want. Not to mention the plethora of Gaming magazines that regularly have mods on their cover CDs. -EvilGrin http://halflife-central.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian A. Stumm Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Mods on CD? On Wed, 28 May 2003, Michael Shimmins wrote: > Yahn once said to me that making money is not a good > driving force behind the production of a mod. Good advice. I think the authors original point was to distribute the mod and cover the costs of distrobution, not to make a profit. Some people game via slower net connections and it is not very easy to obtain a 200 plus meg file via the internet. What I'd rather see is some officially sponsored (valve) method of distrobuting mods on cd where one might get a smathering of mods on one CD. Come to think of it, isn't this already being done via such places as fileshack where you can "make your own cd" by picking the files you want and for a small fee recieve them on CD. I believe HL mods and patches are a part of this program already... ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 19/05/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 19/05/2003 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
Yes, it did clear some questions up. I'm glad C++ is still being used. I never thought it would be any other way, but you never know. Well, I guess now you know. Jonathan Day www.trepid.net - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:30 AM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? > Erik Johnson wrote: > >The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will > >be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. > > > >Erik Johnson > > Thank you Erik for replying! I'm sure it meant a lot to quite a few on > this list. > > > HoundDawg > http://www.unitedadmins.com > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Yeah, this is what I've been saying too. There's a time and a place for scripting languages. Like, scripting languages for use by mappers to create cool far-ranging effects, that type of thing. For main logic use, however, it seems pointless. Any scripting language complex enough to use would be just as complex as a normal programming language, with the detriment of no one knowing it. Persuter At 10:09 PM 5/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: Scripting languages belong OUTSIDE of hlds. Take for example halfd, written in TCL (a scripting language). Wonderful tool for hlds_l admins. It remains outside of hlds as a wrapper that intercepts console and interacts to whats going on in hlds from outside of the binary executable. If we are going to have a big debate over what should and shouldn't be in hl2 it would be more productive to discuss a better api for interacting with hlds from outside the engine AND mod. The current hlds server protocol (for queries) is crap, imho. A lesson could be learned from Halfd and its "newapi" protocol. yes I probably am biased since I helped come up with the protocol but it's not exactly new thinking. tab delimited is a widely used format. For what it's worth, I believe in using the best language for the job. Sometimes I find scripting languages to be best, sometimes I find C/C++ best for the project at hand. Ok so I didn't add much to this discussion. But I would like to see the hlds query (aka server protocol) api discussed. I hope Valve will make serious changes to it prior to coming up with a formal SDK for hl2. -- ab. Brian A. Stummd88b. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8P"YP"Y88 http://www.bs-linux.com 8|o||o|88 The Choice of a Gnu Generation8'.88 8`._.' Y8. # d/ `8b. ### .dP . Y8b. ## # d8:' " `::88b. ## ### ### ### ### ### ### ### d8" `Y88b ## # ## ### ## #### ## ## :8P ' :888 ## # ## #### #### ### 8a.: _a88P ##### #### #### ###._/"Yaa_ :.| 88P| ## # ####### ###### ## \YP" `| 8P `. #### ### # #### ### ### ## ## / \._.d|.' # ### ### ### ### ### `--..__)88P`._.' ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Alfred wrote: >http://www.adminmod.org/alfred/SQS_v03.html > >This standard was produces by this list about 6 months ago. Hopefully >something like this will appear in HL2, nothing concrete about this side >of the engine has been decided however. > Actually, we had the discussion on the hlds_apps list, not this one. So, I'm sure many here are not aware of it. HoundDawg http://www.unitedadmins.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
http://www.adminmod.org/alfred/SQS_v03.html This standard was produces by this list about 6 months ago. Hopefully something like this will appear in HL2, nothing concrete about this side of the engine has been decided however. Brian A. Stumm wrote: Scripting languages belong OUTSIDE of hlds. Take for example halfd, written in TCL (a scripting language). Wonderful tool for hlds_l admins. It remains outside of hlds as a wrapper that intercepts console and interacts to whats going on in hlds from outside of the binary executable. If we are going to have a big debate over what should and shouldn't be in hl2 it would be more productive to discuss a better api for interacting with hlds from outside the engine AND mod. The current hlds server protocol (for queries) is crap, imho. A lesson could be learned from Halfd and its "newapi" protocol. yes I probably am biased since I helped come up with the protocol but it's not exactly new thinking. tab delimited is a widely used format. For what it's worth, I believe in using the best language for the job. Sometimes I find scripting languages to be best, sometimes I find C/C++ best for the project at hand. Ok so I didn't add much to this discussion. But I would like to see the hlds query (aka server protocol) api discussed. I hope Valve will make serious changes to it prior to coming up with a formal SDK for hl2. -- ab. Brian A. Stummd88b. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8P"YP"Y88 http://www.bs-linux.com 8|o||o|88 The Choice of a Gnu Generation8'.88 8`._.' Y8. # d/ `8b. ### .dP . Y8b. ## # d8:' " `::88b. ## ### ### ### ### ### ### ### d8" `Y88b ## # ## ### ## #### ## ## :8P ' :888 ## # ## #### #### ### 8a.: _a88P ##### #### #### ###._/"Yaa_ :.| 88P| ## # ####### ###### ## \YP" `| 8P `. #### ### # #### ### ### ## ## / \._.d|.' # ### ### ### ### ### `--..__)88P`._.' ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
Erik Johnson wrote: >The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will >be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. > >Erik Johnson Thank you Erik for replying! I'm sure it meant a lot to quite a few on this list. HoundDawg http://www.unitedadmins.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Phantom, Try quoting me next time instead of making false representations of what I actually said, which was: >Persons who are not up to programming in C or C++ are not up to >programming at all and are certainly not skilled enough to produce anything >but crappy "weapons mods". > I made this statement based upon the observation that these languages require a particular level of knowledge in the subjects of computer languages, algorithms, data structures and other fundamentals of Computer Science and skill in their application which the "easy-to-program" scripting language, by definition, do not require. Any person who is not trained in the basics of programming (algorithms + data = programs) and how to express them in a computer language is -- by definition -- not a programmer. This is the same distinction made between real "hackers" and mere "script kiddies". Such persons are limited to cutting and pasting example code from tutorials and/or tweaking damage values, rates of fire, movement speeds and other such readily changeable values in source code written by someone else who can *really* program. Implementation of totally new innovative ideas in a mod is utterly beyond such persons, for they lack the knowledge and skills to do so. That is what is meant by "crappy weapons mods". >Limiting the skilled programmers with a scripting language so unskilled >programmers can find it easier to make crappy mods is a completely >brain-damaged idea. I was being charitable to even call such people "programmers". You however, crossed the line when you called me 'bigoted' and then called into question my knowledge of the program languages in question, which is actually completely irrelevant to the point of argument I made, as I did not claim expertise as the reason anyone should accept my statement. Such slimey personal attacks in debates are called 'ad hominem' and all they demonstrate is your lack of ability at fair and reasonable argumentation. At 05:08 AM 5/28/2003 +0100, you wrote: btw, most of my comment was directed at the idea that unless you can code in C or C++ you might as well not bother programming at all, which unless you are crazy and an idiot you cant agree with :) Michael A. Hobson Web Programmer IBRC, Inc. email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
I never said that a scripting system alone would be the only way to mod, in fact i'm pretty sure that at some point i agreed that a mix of scripting and C++ _would_ be a good solution. what i was in fact argueing against was teh idea that 'scripts are useless for modding' and the general feel that 'scripts are like VB' and they are generaly 'useless' as proven by other titles which exist. btw, and unrelated to the reply below, someone mentioned about the Valve guys setting up a mailing list for the modders, Epic have done the same thing and are opening up alot of docs/tool for the modders as well :) (and until this C++ vs scripts arguement i got alot more traffic on that list than this one) - Original Message - From: "RDG O'Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > > On the subject of 'Half-life being the biggest mod community', yes, > this is > > true however it was also pretty much the first as well, it was a few years > > before we saw other games which could be modable. However biggest doesnt > > mean best, look at every mod we've seen for HL, 99% of them are 'oh look its > > a fps we've just changed things a bit' its only recently with NS and ISO > > that things have changed a bit. Now look at UT2K3, its not really been out > > that long and someone has already used UScript to produce a game which is > > nuffin like a fps (Marble maddness), THATS flexiblity. > > Half-Life has had racing mods, several Pong mods and engine upgrades - > all years ago. It's had a viable persistent character system written > entirely as part of a mod, though never implemented. With the Half-Life > SDK, you could feasibly write your own networking component, your own > renderer, your own physics engine. You can write them optimally and > integrate them with the rest of the engine, and it'll all work - and > fast. More and more people have done so, as with the Q3 map loader > discussed on the list a few days back. > > Any scripting system alone would not allow modders to do things like > this. I would not consider that flexible. > > -randomnine- > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
And i wonder how many 'crappy weapon mods' have existed for HL and just faded away.. probably no less. btw, most of my comment was directed at the idea that unless you can code in C or C++ you might as well not bother programming at all, which unless you are crazy and an idiot you cant agree with :) - Original Message - From: "Sniper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > Truth hurts, doesn't it. The average game out there IS just a bunch of > crappy weapon mods. Take the entire Starsiege: Tribes series for instance. > The mod community was built around a scripting engine the game featured. > Nothing but "double warhammer shotgun flameball thrower plasma bomb > launcher" weapon mods were created. > > There are several different examples of why scripting languages usually lead > to crappy weapon mods. Too many to list. > > Sniper ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Mods on CD?
Actually I'd be very careful doing that. Who's to say shipping didn't cost $89.90? My point is its not enough to be beyond reproach you have to appear to be beyond reproach. If you really are just charging for shipping, it may look as though you are also making a bit on the side. Apart from that, I don't think you can charge full stop. I remember a few years ago there was a discussion about this and the final answer was you could charge for an internet distribution, but not for a distribution on physical media. I don't know if that has since changed. You should email Eric Smith and ask him. He will pass it onto the relevant legal people. Also on a side note, if you really want to make money from a mod, why not look at more original ways of doing it rather than selling it perse? Banner ads etc for instance. Yahn once said to me that making money is not a good driving force behind the production of a mod. Good advice. Michael Shimmins Sesechial Software ___ Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments, check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender, and not necessarily those of Sesechial Software. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian A. Stumm Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2003 1:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, 27 May 2003, Jeff Katz wrote: > Lo, list ;) > > Some of my forum gnomes have been clamouring for me to sell cds > with my mod on it. I wasn't exactly sure if this was legal as per the > EULA. We wouldn't actually be making any profit from the sales of the cd > - just whatever cafepress charges. > > Thanks for any (informed) responses... I doubt you could charge for the mod, but could probably charge for shipping/handling and to cover cost of producing the CD itself. Linux is free but you can "buy" redhat in the store or download it for "free" off the redhat's site. You should read Valve's license carefully since HL is not GPL'ed. But I think you would be ok with charging 5-10 bucks or something for the CD burned with mod on it and shipping charge included in that charge. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Mods on CD?
" Now, therefore, in consideration of the mutual promises made herein, the parties agree as follows: 1. License. 1.1 License Grant. Valve hereby grants Licensee a nonexclusive, royalty-free, terminable, worldwide, nontransferable license to: (a) use, reproduce and modify the SDK in source code form, solely to develop a Mod; and (b) reproduce, distribute and license the Mod in object code form, solely to licensed end users of Half-Life, _without_charge_." Apparently not. -- MoD, Often @ your service. - Original Message - From: "Jeff Katz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:14 PM Subject: [hlcoders] Mods on CD? > Lo, list ;) > > Some of my forum gnomes have been clamouring for me to sell cds > with my mod on it. I wasn't exactly sure if this was legal as per the > EULA. We wouldn't actually be making any profit from the sales of the cd > - just whatever cafepress charges. > > Thanks for any (informed) responses... > > Jeff 'Kuja' Katz > http://www.digitalpaintball.net > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Experienced (non-game) Programmer looking for work on an HL or HL 2 mod
http://mods.moddb.com/hw/?hw=2 Flick through that list and see if you spot anything you like. :) -EvilGrin http://halflife-central.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jamie Esliger Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:10 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [hlcoders] Experienced (non-game) Programmer looking for work on an HL or HL 2 mod I posted this at planethalflife.com mod forums. Sending it out to this list as well... Hi everyone. I'm an experienced programmer looking to work on a HL or HL2 mod. While I have very little game programming experience, I have been programming for a living for over 10 years now, in the Telecom industry. My game programming experience is limited only to a little fooling around with some 2D stuff from an old Lamothe book "Windows Game Programming for Dummies", as well as a tiny little bit of DirectX programming experimentation. I know C very well, and some C++. I can find my way around a C++ program and have written some small programs, but nothing major. I learn fast. Programming itself is not the problem. I just want an interesting project to work on. I'm interested in learning more about game programming, and developing a mod seems to be a great path to take. I'd like to work on something with a well thought-out game design, and a motivated team leader. I'm willing to start from scratch on a new mod, or join an existing mod team, even if it is just to quash those final few bugs. I just want to get into the guts of the game. Thanks, Jamie ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 19/05/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 19/05/2003 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
> c) hope, valve ppl still read our mumblings :> Actually, I think that the response to this was in response to a post in thew hlds_apps list about Vavle's interaction with the HL programming/server community about HL2 (which has been quite disappointing). -Philip ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
Lovely :D - Original Message - From: "Erik Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? > The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will > be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. > > Erik Johnson > > -Original Message- > From: Sniper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:56 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? > > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > Just a quick thought/question. > > Half-Life 2 and it's modifications will be done with C/C++, as it was in > Half-Life, correct? There's a handful of discussions blooming up on various > Half-Life 2 forums talking about this. Scripting languages can be very > limiting... so it's a bit scary what Gabe Newell's quote from a PC Gamer > article said: > > > "While the old system required its fair share of technical know-how, amateur > modders are now promised the chance to focus on content and gameplay flow > rather than the nuts and bolts of programming." > > > This could imply a scripting language, don't you agree? (Emphasis on could) > Hopefully this is not the case, of course. > > A scripting language might be neat for people new to creating modifications, > but it'd be nice to have C/C++ in addition. I don't think Valve would step > away from the power C/C++ offers to modders, but nothing has really been > confirmed. > > Can anyone from Valve confirm if C/C++ will still be used for Half-Life 2? > > > Sniper > -- > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
There we go then. - Original Message - From: "Erik Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:41 PM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? > The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will > be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. > > Erik Johnson > > -Original Message- > From: Sniper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:56 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? > > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > Just a quick thought/question. > > Half-Life 2 and it's modifications will be done with C/C++, as it was in > Half-Life, correct? There's a handful of discussions blooming up on various > Half-Life 2 forums talking about this. Scripting languages can be very > limiting... so it's a bit scary what Gabe Newell's quote from a PC Gamer > article said: > > > "While the old system required its fair share of technical know-how, amateur > modders are now promised the chance to focus on content and gameplay flow > rather than the nuts and bolts of programming." > > > This could imply a scripting language, don't you agree? (Emphasis on could) > Hopefully this is not the case, of course. > > A scripting language might be neat for people new to creating modifications, > but it'd be nice to have C/C++ in addition. I don't think Valve would step > away from the power C/C++ offers to modders, but nothing has really been > confirmed. > > Can anyone from Valve confirm if C/C++ will still be used for Half-Life 2? > > > Sniper > -- > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
> Assuming there is a scripting language it will have been used to > create HL2 and to allow the engine to work with other games just as > well. The power Valve had to create HL2 isnt enuff for you? :) In that hypothetical case, Valve would have had the option of extending their proprietary scripting system if they came up against a barrier created by the limitations of that system. Modders would not, and would have to put up with the functional limitations of that system. As well as the undocumented quirks of that system, mind. -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
> On the subject of 'Half-life being the biggest mod community', yes, this is > true however it was also pretty much the first as well, it was a few years > before we saw other games which could be modable. However biggest doesnt > mean best, look at every mod we've seen for HL, 99% of them are 'oh look its > a fps we've just changed things a bit' its only recently with NS and ISO > that things have changed a bit. Now look at UT2K3, its not really been out > that long and someone has already used UScript to produce a game which is > nuffin like a fps (Marble maddness), THATS flexiblity. Half-Life has had racing mods, several Pong mods and engine upgrades - all years ago. It's had a viable persistent character system written entirely as part of a mod, though never implemented. With the Half-Life SDK, you could feasibly write your own networking component, your own renderer, your own physics engine. You can write them optimally and integrate them with the rest of the engine, and it'll all work - and fast. More and more people have done so, as with the Q3 map loader discussed on the list a few days back. Any scripting system alone would not allow modders to do things like this. I would not consider that flexible. -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Truth hurts, doesn't it. The average game out there IS just a bunch of crappy weapon mods. Take the entire Starsiege: Tribes series for instance. The mod community was built around a scripting engine the game featured. Nothing but "double warhammer shotgun flameball thrower plasma bomb launcher" weapon mods were created. There are several different examples of why scripting languages usually lead to crappy weapon mods. Too many to list. Sniper - Original Message - From: "Phantom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael A. Hobson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:18 PM > Subject: RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > > > > Persons who are not up to programming in C or C++ are not up to > > programming at all and are certainly not skilled enough to produce > anything > > but crappy "weapons mods". > > oh, one last thing, this is the most bigoeted, short sighed and childish > comment in this whole convasion. > Your going to write off the work of everyone who programs in something else > other than C or C++ because they are 'not upto it' if they havent needed to > learn it? > Tell me when you get out into the real world and discover C++ isnt 'all > that' :) > (btw, i'd be intrested to know just how much of C++ you really do know :) ) > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
OMFG MY EMAIL, jesus christ you guys clam DOWN! LOL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony "omega" Sergi Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 8:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts I'm replying to myself because I just re-read it, it may seem like I have this thing against CS, but I don't. Anyway, more to the point, because of something phantom said about hl being one of the first.. well, no. Quake. I'll bring up quake any day of the week. From what I know/remember, the majority (or at least, a large chunk.. robin with tf, yahn with BSP, steve used to run a quake modding site (he even helped me with some stuff back in the day for quake, thanks steve!) of valve are/were all Quake Modders. It isn't because its written in c/c++ that the mod community is so big; its BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT IT. I've yet to see another retail game where the TEAM sets up a coding mailing list, and other forms of communication to keep community interaction with their project. HL could have had its own variation on QuakeC, and I'm willing to bet it still would have risen to the top. Sure, it may not have lasted AS long, with so many things being recycled, it's the fact that valve has always supported the mod community, being modders themselves that put them to the top. >From what I've seen, even if hl2 used a scripting language, I'd STILL mod for it, unlike unreal. I just don't see the support aspect there. omega Blackened Interactive - http://www.blackened-interactive.com Wavelength - http://www.thewavelength.net > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlcoders- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony "omega" Sergi > Sent: May 26, 2003 11:30 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts > > No other game has counter-strike, and people wanting to clone it either. > No other game has a huge following that thinks CS *IS* the engine, and > that > they want to mod it. > > I just felt like throwing this in for no real reason. I'm all for c/c++ > over > scripting anyway, always have been, however its surely not because of > c/c++ > that there are so many mods. There are hundreds if not thousands of mods > that are by people that don't know how to program anyway, they just want a > piece of the hl mod pie, and most of them are CS players. > > > > > omega > Blackened Interactive - http://www.blackened-interactive.com > Wavelength - http://www.thewavelength.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
[hlcoders] Mods on CD?
Lo, list ;) Some of my forum gnomes have been clamouring for me to sell cds with my mod on it. I wasn't exactly sure if this was legal as per the EULA. We wouldn't actually be making any profit from the sales of the cd - just whatever cafepress charges. Thanks for any (informed) responses... Jeff 'Kuja' Katz http://www.digitalpaintball.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
A bit of an update on this. GamingNEXT had an interview with Gabe Newell... This is what he had to say about the modability of the engine: GamingNEXT - Finally, how user friendly is this engine and will modders be able to create unique environments and maps that made the first Half-Life last so long? Gabe Newell - We learned a lot through our experiences with TFC, Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, and so on. This engine is much more MOD'able (if that's a word) than Half-Life 1 was, and the tool set has been improved a lot. We'll also be releasing a bunch of material to help MOD teams get their existing work up and running on the new engine as a starting point. His last line suggests that you can port existing work for HL MODs to HL2. If this is the case, it's almost certain there will be C/C++ modding. Please note that this does NOT exclude a scripting language. To read the full interview, go to http://www.gamingnext.com/articles/index.asp?id=17 Jeroen "ShadowLord" Bogers - Original Message - From: "Sniper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 04:56 Subject: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Just a quick thought/question. Half-Life 2 and it's modifications will be done with C/C++, as it was in Half-Life, correct? There's a handful of discussions blooming up on various Half-Life 2 forums talking about this. Scripting languages can be very limiting... so it's a bit scary what Gabe Newell's quote from a PC Gamer article said: "While the old system required its fair share of technical know-how, amateur modders are now promised the chance to focus on content and gameplay flow rather than the nuts and bolts of programming." This could imply a scripting language, don't you agree? (Emphasis on could) Hopefully this is not the case, of course. A scripting language might be neat for people new to creating modifications, but it'd be nice to have C/C++ in addition. I don't think Valve would step away from the power C/C++ offers to modders, but nothing has really been confirmed. Can anyone from Valve confirm if C/C++ will still be used for Half-Life 2? Sniper -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
> I really fail to see why anyone would WANT to be forced into using a > scripting language. Scripting languages are the equivalent of Visual Basic. > And the developers of Unreal Script created UnrealED with Visual Basic. > > I find that hilarious. Anybody that has ever tried to modify/extend UnrealEd would find that comment hilarious. UnrealEd is NOT Visual Basic. UnrealEd has it's own bizarre confusing GUI API (in order to make it cross platform compatible (Windows/Linux/Mac/Playstation2/Xbox/Gamecube). I've seen the Unreal engine source code and it ain't pretty (but it is mighty damn efficient and VERY stable since it's been in use for years). Tim Sweeney is a pretty sharp guy. I'd rank him right up there with John Carmack on game engine programming skills. Unreal Script (created by Tim) is simple, yet powerful, minimal, yet extensible and one of the biggest advantages to Unreal Script is that it doesn't require you to buy any expensive compiler or development tools to create a MOD (or a simple mutator). Someone can create a mutator for a weapon in just 5 minutes following a good tutorial on the Internet. It takes me twice that long just to install Visual C++ (nevermind the time it takes to load a workspace, modify a source code file, recompile the DLL, fix any syntax errors, recompile again, then test out my changes). There are a variety of reasons for using a scripting language (in any environment). Ease of use (good for beginners), no expensive/complicated tools are required, they limit what the end user can do (which is actually a GOOD thing for beginners to help prevent them from shooting themselves in the foot), and they can be cross platform compatible (which reduces development time if you have to support many different platforms and makes your game available to a wider audience). There are many bad reasons for using a scripting language as well. They aren't as efficient as native code (compiled machine code). They aren't always easy to interface to 3rd party libraries. They are often more difficult to debug and/or profile. They require more time and effort by the game developer to create them up front than using a non-scripted language would. Ultimately it comes down to a question of how easy do you want it to be for your game customers to be able to extend your game. I think Valve made a good choice in using DLLs instead of QuakeC or something similar for Half-Life. I think Epic made a good choice in using Unreal Script for Unreal, Unreal Tournament, Unreal 2K3/Unreal Championship and Unreal 2,(notice Epic has put out 4 games in the time Valve has put out 1, makes you go "Hmm."). Each game has a specific type of MOD community and people develop MODs for those games partly because of the environment that's available for creating modifications. Each group has things they like and things they don't like. One is NOT exclusively better than the other. Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
> If you (or ANYONE) belive that C++ is the be all and end all of developement > of games then you need to take a reality check, wake up and stop being so > blinkered. It's not the be all and all. But it is the base for almost any AAA game. So you can't just shove C/C++ aside without looking back. > Anyways, I'm not going to argue this point any more, simply because i've > been in your postion, did some reading and researching into scripting > systems and realised just how good they are and what you can do with them, > and frankly i've had enuff of bashing my head against a brick wall here and > i've better things to do (like work and make a living). > So, go through life beliving C++ is the best if you like, but if you plan on > taking your skills out into the game industry be prepared for a shock and a > kick in the teeth when they use other things as well. The thing is that with only a scripting language Half-Life 2 modding will never be as big. The modders basicly need the same access to the game as the developper had, except maybe the core engine (altho there are ways aorund the enige too). Just like the HL SDK works now. With only scripting this is just not feasable. The scripting would be so complex and feature rich that it would be easier to just start coding in binary code :) The key is a combination of scriping and C/C++, just like game developpers use. The creative staff uses the scripting language to create whatever they want in a simple way. If it doesn't support a certain feature, it's added with C/C++. Just like that, the modder would need the same access. If you want to create a 'simple' mod, you can just use the scripting language only. And you're happy it was all so simple to mod HL. On the other hand, if you want to make a real TC, like a rally mod, you just fire up your favorite C/C++ editor next to the script editor and start working... If you need extra power or a new script feature, you just switch ot your C/C++ window, code it there and then continue with the script. This way you have the best of both worlds. And it allows the creative staff of your mod to do a lot of coding for you with the script, while the core coding team concentrates on the bowels of the engine. Jeroen "ShadowLord" Bogers ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
that gives me a) relief, no more silly discussion. b) confusion, how will they makej it easier for modders, documentation, perhaps? :> c) hope, valve ppl still read our mumblings :> -- MoD, Always @ your service. - Original Message - From: "Erik Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? > The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will > be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. > > Erik Johnson > > -Original Message- > From: Sniper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:56 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? > > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > Just a quick thought/question. > > Half-Life 2 and it's modifications will be done with C/C++, as it was in > Half-Life, correct? There's a handful of discussions blooming up on various > Half-Life 2 forums talking about this. Scripting languages can be very > limiting... so it's a bit scary what Gabe Newell's quote from a PC Gamer > article said: > > > "While the old system required its fair share of technical know-how, amateur > modders are now promised the chance to focus on content and gameplay flow > rather than the nuts and bolts of programming." > > > This could imply a scripting language, don't you agree? (Emphasis on could) > Hopefully this is not the case, of course. > > A scripting language might be neat for people new to creating modifications, > but it'd be nice to have C/C++ in addition. I don't think Valve would step > away from the power C/C++ offers to modders, but nothing has really been > confirmed. > > Can anyone from Valve confirm if C/C++ will still be used for Half-Life 2? > > > Sniper > -- > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
Wonderful! Simply wonderful! Sniper - Original Message - From: "Erik Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 5:41 PM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? > The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will > be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. > > Erik Johnson > > -Original Message- > From: Sniper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:56 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? > > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > Just a quick thought/question. > > Half-Life 2 and it's modifications will be done with C/C++, as it was in > Half-Life, correct? There's a handful of discussions blooming up on various > Half-Life 2 forums talking about this. Scripting languages can be very > limiting... so it's a bit scary what Gabe Newell's quote from a PC Gamer > article said: > > > "While the old system required its fair share of technical know-how, amateur > modders are now promised the chance to focus on content and gameplay flow > rather than the nuts and bolts of programming." > > > This could imply a scripting language, don't you agree? (Emphasis on could) > Hopefully this is not the case, of course. > > A scripting language might be neat for people new to creating modifications, > but it'd be nice to have C/C++ in addition. I don't think Valve would step > away from the power C/C++ offers to modders, but nothing has really been > confirmed. > > Can anyone from Valve confirm if C/C++ will still be used for Half-Life 2? > > > Sniper > -- > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. Erik Johnson -Original Message- From: Sniper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Just a quick thought/question. Half-Life 2 and it's modifications will be done with C/C++, as it was in Half-Life, correct? There's a handful of discussions blooming up on various Half-Life 2 forums talking about this. Scripting languages can be very limiting... so it's a bit scary what Gabe Newell's quote from a PC Gamer article said: "While the old system required its fair share of technical know-how, amateur modders are now promised the chance to focus on content and gameplay flow rather than the nuts and bolts of programming." This could imply a scripting language, don't you agree? (Emphasis on could) Hopefully this is not the case, of course. A scripting language might be neat for people new to creating modifications, but it'd be nice to have C/C++ in addition. I don't think Valve would step away from the power C/C++ offers to modders, but nothing has really been confirmed. Can anyone from Valve confirm if C/C++ will still be used for Half-Life 2? Sniper -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
[hlcoders] Experienced (non-game) Programmer looking for work on an HL or HL2 mod
I posted this at planethalflife.com mod forums. Sending it out to this list as well... Hi everyone. I'm an experienced programmer looking to work on a HL or HL2 mod. While I have very little game programming experience, I have been programming for a living for over 10 years now, in the Telecom industry. My game programming experience is limited only to a little fooling around with some 2D stuff from an old Lamothe book "Windows Game Programming for Dummies", as well as a tiny little bit of DirectX programming experimentation. I know C very well, and some C++. I can find my way around a C++ program and have written some small programs, but nothing major. I learn fast. Programming itself is not the problem. I just want an interesting project to work on. I'm interested in learning more about game programming, and developing a mod seems to be a great path to take. I'd like to work on something with a well thought-out game design, and a motivated team leader. I'm willing to start from scratch on a new mod, or join an existing mod team, even if it is just to quash those final few bugs. I just want to get into the guts of the game. Thanks, Jamie ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
