[Hornlist] Using a Single Bb/A/Stop valve horn and fingerings

[John Dutton]

 Benjamin Irvine-Scott 
Hello Fellow listers,
What models/Brands of Single Bb/A horns are players using?


I have frequently used a single B horn for opera or chamber music
performances over the years.  The ones I have and use are an Alexander 5
valve single B, Yamaha 322 with A+/f extension, King 4 valve, and a 1930's
Conn 4 valve.  You would not really consider using one without a fourth
valve.  It could be configured either as a 3/4 stop valve or an f
extension.  I do feel obligated to insert that I use these horns because I
have them.  My first twenty years I played only on a double and was still
able to get the style and lightness necessary for early Classical era
works.

Alexander, Hoyer, Engelbert Schmid, Paxman, Finke, etc all make good single
horns.  Unless you are wanting to spend more on this than for your Holton
then you are looking at Yamaha 322, Kings 4 valve (new or old), or a vintage
Conn 4 valve if you can find one in good shape.  If you were truly investing
in spending money on a good horn, Ken Pope has a couple of Alex single B
horns in his shop now.  Dave Weiner and Bob Osmun would be others to check
with.  Advantages to this are that you can try them out before purchase.

As to fingerings, you'll just start with the basic B horn fingerings.  From
there explore the alternates available to you.  You may find that you prefer
23 for first space F and 1 for top line F and 12 for the F# just above it.
You may find that the A above the staff works better open, or maybe with 3
or maybe something completely unconventional.  You just won't know until you
put your mouthpiece in the horn with your embouchure and go to work.  You
may even need a different mouthpiece to better fit the characteristics of
the B horn depending on what you already use and abuse.

There are too many variable for someone to make definitive recommendations
without having seen/heard you play.

The Jack Attack!
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[Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 78, Issue 1

[John Dutton]

Jeremy wrote:
Which is precisely why it's good to have a Marine horn player in the section
with you!
---

You rang?
The Jack Attack!
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[Hornlist] Looking for used Holton Eb Main Tuning Slide to fit H177 horn. & 651M Bb Single horn

[John Dutton]

The eb slide for a Holton 177 could be manufactured by a competent
repairman.  It is unnecessary anyway.  If you can't transpose the most basic
of keys then you can't play opera at all.  An E crook might be a better idea
if you needed such a crutch-don't forget that you'd have to change the B
slide as well.

In regards the single, you'd be better off finding a vintage King 4 valve or
a Yamaha 322.  These are both good horns that with veryfew mods become great
horns.  They can be had four the 300-800 range on ebay depending on
condition and customization.  I have a King you could have for reasonable
but I won't be back home until October.  The biggest recommended mod
(provided the valves are tight) is an Engelbert Schmid bell ring and custom
flare.

The Jack Attack!
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[Hornlist] Funny sales history, confirmation please!

[John Dutton]

quote: It would have been "Made in the FRG" or "Made in the GDR."  The English
translation that is. /quote

This is incorrect.  When Gebr. Alexander manufactured horns
specifically for the US market they were labeled made in W. Germany.
I have two horns from the period in question, the newer one about
1978.  This was true for the Giardinelli stencils as well I am sure
for the Yancich Helden horns.  Pictures may be seen at my website if
doubt remains.  Giardinelli ceased importing Alex horns sometime in
the early or mid 1980's.  I can query Richard Bentson at Wichita Band
about the horns he imported if anyone really cares about completeness.

The Jack Attack!
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[Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda

[John Dutton]

The Ifor James recording is very nice.  The liner notes state the
Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn.  It could be played on any horn
that one could get the desired tone color from.  Using a shorter horn
doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials
further apart.  The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could
be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less).  Long
story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with
a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help.

Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician.  For many years he
played a single Bb horn of one type or another.  He stated that he
played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he
would never have played the horn.  The Neruda was recorded 10 February
1987 and no doubt on 1/2" tape.

The Jack Attack!
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[Hornlist] Doubt about transposing

[John Dutton]

I may think of various pieces-especially natural horn repertoire-in
terms of "movable do" but the fingers pushing down the levers on the
horn don't care about that.  I use alternate fingerings too but those
are based upon voice leading tendencies and quirks of the particular
horn in hand and not because the horn itself is a single B horn or a
double or an f alto horn.
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re: [Hornlist] Doubt about transposing

[John Dutton]

quote:   But what if the player is using a single Bb horn (4 valves)? The
intonation will be the same if you think in F or in Bb... What's the best
choice in this case?



You are making this much harder than it needs to be.  A horn player
ALWAYS reads his part with reference to horn in F.  If the part is
written out in Eb he transposes.  If the part is written out in Bb or
H he transposes.  If he is playing a single Bb in three valve or four
valve or the Sansone model five valve, the reference is still horn in
F and he transposes.  If he is playing a Schmid triple with high Eb he
is still thinking like an F horn player.  The only exceptions are
Professor Schmutzig who passed away several months ago and Prof I.M.G.
who no one is really sure what is going to happen.

The Jack Attack!
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re: [Hornlist] weak military band

[John Dutton]

[quote]
If you have corrections please let me know, all that I know about the
Coasty recruit band was passed on to me by my son.  Also, are there
any full time members of the band?  Do the other services
have recruit bands?
[/quote]
--

None of the other services, to the best of my knowledge, have a
recruit band.  We did have recruits come over an audition for the
music MOS while in Recruit Training but they were not allowed to play
with Marine Band San Diego and I doubt The Island allowed it either.
They had too much training and indoctrination to accomplish.

The Coast Guard does employ a full time professional band that is a
good band.  They in fact just hired an assoc principal last Monday.  I
believe they begin at E6 paygrade.
http://www.uscg.mil/band/history.asp  Unlike the other Services, there
is only one CG band (baring the recruit band).  I met several of the
horn section members in Denver this past summer.

Their audition list in case anyone was interested.

U.S. Coast Guard Band
Associate Principal Horn Audition
February 2, 2009
REPERTOIRE:
Required solo (select one):
Mozart Concerto #2, mvt #1, exposition
Mozart Concerto #4, mvt #1, exposition

Excerpts – All 1st Horn except as noted
Brahms Symphony #3, mvt #3 Pickup to F to 13 after F
Mahler Symphony #5, mvt #3 obligato horn
Beginning to 11 after 1 21 to 1 after 22
Wagner, Short Call
Shostakovitch Symphony #5, mvt #1 3 after 17 to 21
Tchaikovsky, Symphony #5, mvt 2 solo
Bernstein, Candide 3 after 120 to 2 after 200 (half note = 152)
Broughton, Silverado, Prelude 127 to end (quarter note = 108)
Williams, American Journey Pickup to 33 to 49 (quarter note = 58)
Williams, Superman,
Superfeats 101 to 114 (quarter note = 152)
Ensemble excerpts – performed with the CG Band French Horn Section
Williams, Superman, Leaving Home
Beginning to 4 before A (quarter note = 58)
Hindemith, March from Symphonic Metamorphosis D to 8 after E (half note = 80)
Tchaikovsky, Symphony #4, mvt 1 Beginning to 6 after A (quarter note = 69)
Sight reading
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[Hornlist] (no subject)

[John Dutton]

[quote] Not to take away from the eloquent statements of Mr. Dutton
but I wonder why
one would not recommend the Air Force Field Bands. [/quote]

Absolutely.  Several of my friends from school chose this route.  The
USAF has fine musical ensembles and I did not intentionally slight
them.  They should be included in my DC/Academy grouping.  I'll save
the friendly rivalry jokes for another time.

The Jack Attack!
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re: [hornlist] Inauguration picture

[John Dutton]

John,
Would that be the course that the author WEB Griffin describes as
learning not to piss in the potted palms? Ooohrah!!!
Walt Lewis


That's it in a nutshell.or planter..also taught is how to find
one's XXX without using both hands and a road map.

I'll give WEB Griffin his proper due despite being Army.  He has a CIB
and an intellect which is sometimes a rare combination.

The Jack Attack!
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re: [Hornlist] US Marine Band and Chamber Orchestra

[John Dutton]

[quote] snip
Here in the Washington DC region, the members of the Marine Band (and
that includes the chamber orchestra) are considered some of the finest
musicians arounds. I don't hear members of the Navy, Air Force, or
Army bands "dissing" their colleagues for not getting muddy. They have
a job to do like everyone else, and the USMC owns their backsides
24-hours a day just like everyone else.

And I'm sure the members of the Marine Band would be surprised to hear
that they are not respected by other Marines. Articles about them have
consistently noted that while they do not enter the Corps the same way
everyone else does, they earn and return the respect of other Marines.

Now if they could just earn the respect of the members of this list,
all would be good I'm sure.
[/quote]
-

First of all, there is a difference between respecting them as
musicians and respecting them as Marines.  The Marine musicians of the
Fleet Marine Force do indeed respect the musicianship of the ensemble
that is supposed to be the highest ceremonial representation of the
Marine Corps.  I know several of the members personally, both from the
Fleet and others that I knew in grad school and I value their
friendship and respect their achievements.  However, all Marines are
more proud and certain that they are Marines first.

There is only one way to become a Marine and it is not by audition no
matter what anyone might think or want.  Once a Marine always a
Marine.

The culture of the Marine Corps IS what makes it the cohesive force
that it is.  I am completely unconcerned by how and what the other
services feel about their own history and culture.   As has already
been pointed out however, all other service bands including all the
other DC bandsmen other than the PO go through their respective
Recruit Training.  I can honestly say that the President's Own would
not be the quality it is today if these musicians were required to go
through Marine Recruit Training, School of Infantry, and all the other
normal and regular duties of a Marine including being in the front and
not CONUS or a distant rear area base.  That still does not take away
from the President's Own musical accomplishments which are
unparalleled.

I have on numerous occasions recommended to musicians looking for
MUSICALLY fulfilling careers to research and audition for the USMA,
USNA, USCGA, and the four DC service bands.  I feel that the best of
these are indeed the President's Own.  I have on just as many
occasions pointed out that military field bands are not the place to
be for one not inclined to breaking a nail or who abhors military
customs-excepting again the above mentioned Academies and DC bands.

So it is not in fact "dissing" the President's Own members so much as
asserting the achievements of the Fleet Marines which can NEVER be
replicated by that most August Ensemble.  Please don't deign to
lecture me regarding the Corps or my friends in the ceremonial unit
known as The President's Own United States Marine Band.

As to the other charge of being afraid of performing a modern
composition, that is ridiculous.  The President's Own has been active
for the entire 20 century in promoting new literature.  Granted, some
directors are more interested than others.  I won't put much stock in
innuendo and accusation.


John Dutton
aka The Jack Attack!
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RE: [hornlist] Inauguration picture

[John Dutton]

[quote] True, they don't go through the training, but an article in
the Washington Post a few years ago pointed out that many take leave
and go through training, thereby earning their rifles honestly.

At the time of the article, the NCO bandmaster was preparing for his
second tour of Iraq.

They are Marines. They just take a slightly different path than most.   [/quote]
-

The Washington Post was wrong.  The President's Own and all assigned
to it are non deployable.  End of story.  The only Fleet Marines that
are there are some few that have duties such as loading crew and
public affairs and a couple of other things.  These Marines rotate in
and out of that duty station like all Marines but are not musicians.
There would be a senior NCO of that group but he would not be a
Bandmaster.  The senior NCO of the President's Own would be the Drum
Major who is non-deployable.  Any normal Marine that wins a playing
position with the PO then becomes non-deployable as well.

The term Bandmaster refers to the Fleet Marine Forces 12 field bands
and by definition is the NCOIC and senior enlisted member of a given
band.  These Bandmasters would indeed deploy if their band deployed.
A Bandmaster might or might not also have been a Drum Major.  Perhaps
the news article was confusing the PO with a Field Band or the School
of Music there at Little Creek.

The musicians of the President's Own do not go to Recruit Training and
cannot detach to go do so.  They do go through an orientation/crash
course in Marine Corps protocol etc.   I would wager that most of them
won't in their career learn enough to "speak Marine."  You former
Jarheads out there will know what I mean!   It is the Drum Major's job
to teach them how to march and carry their instruments and push the
paperwork and

Traditionally the head Drum Major has been a Fleet Marine and that
person might very well have deployed in the past prior to accepting a
posting to the President's Own.  Col. Foley succeeded in setting a
precedent for promoting a non-fleet Marine as DM but that didn't last
long and the normal tradition resumed with Thomas Kohl.  Ironically,
the current assistant DM was one of my Marines from San Diego.  He
deployed overseas to Iraq (several times possibly) prior to his
winning a posting to 8th & I.  Browne, the senior DM, was also a Fleet
Marine prior to joining the PO.  I have no idea whether he served in a
combat area or not but he did get posted with the very excellent NATO
band in Europe.

The Jack Attack!
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Re: [hornlist]Inauguration picture

[John Dutton]

Two of them are officers (and hence next to useless) and the other two
judging by the uniforms are likely musicians that were not slated to play.
None of them are part of the loading crew or Public Affairs Office.  I am
sure they hitched a ride to see the inauguration.  There are far more
musicians in the President's Own than would be utilized in any one given
band or chamber orchestra.

The President's Own is not considered part of the regular Marine Corps.
Officially it is a component of the Marine Corps Reserve but for paper
pusher purposes only.  The only way a regular Fleet Marine bandsman gets to
that particular band is by the same audition everyone else takes.  The
lackey jobs like loading crew and public affairs tend to be regular Marines
assigned to the 8th & I Marine Barracks.

Musicians of the Marine Band do NOT get the honor of wearing the crossed
rifles insignia of the Fleet Marine Forces as they have not been through
Recruit Training and are not in fact Riflemen First.  Sadly, Fleet Marines
are forced to give up their normal insignia upon acceptance to the
President's Own.  A trade off not readily understood by non Marines.

The Jack Attack!
John Dutton
Sgt, USMC (former, not retired)



message: 5
date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:37:32 +0900
from: Simon Varnam 
subject: Re: [hornlist]Inauguration picture

Incredible!! You can almost read their parts!
I'm curious about the three people to the left (as viewed) of the
horns, who have no instruments. Surely it doesn't take three to
operate a fire extinguisher.
:-)
Simon
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[Hornlist] Re: Auf dem Strom

[John Dutton]

quote: "Although in Schuberts time tuning was already more or less
equal, this theory was still around. "

With respect to M v d L, equal temperament was not common until the
20C and then only regionally at the beginning.  There were a few
companies that claimed to tune keyboards to equal temperament such as
Broadwood in England but it was not better than close and remained a
Well temperament.  Even by 1930's when piano tuners claimed to be
tuning ET most accomplished only a sort of reverse well temp because
of how they created the temperament octave aurally.  For a graphic
illustration of temperaments check out this website:
http://www.rollingball.com/TemperamentsFrames.htm


I would definitely accept that Well Temperaments had supplanted Mean
Tone temperaments which indeed would have smoothed out some of the
harshness of off keys.  For those that are kind of scratching their
heads at this point.In historical keyboard temperaments, the key
of C major was the only one that was close to truly Just.  Every key
going either way around the circle of 5ths became ever more dissonant
and full of tension so that by the time there were 5 flats or sharps
the key was considered unusable in Bach's time.  Bach and a few others
around Europe were experimenting with smoothing some of this
dissonance out and the era of Well Temperaments came about.  Well
Temperaments ARE NOT equal temperaments.  Some are closer than others
but definitely not equal.   I'll stop here but whole dissertations are
written on this topic, and just like in the horn world, there is a lot
of bad information that is repeated in various "reputable" sources as
well.

The Jack Attack!
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Re: [Hornlist] Christmas, religious music, other questions

[John Dutton]

Ross Taylor wrote:
"(1) Due to a modest inheritance from a comfortable, rather than rich,
uncle, I have the funds to buy a leadpipe. I play a 1968 Conn 8D. Once
in the past, about 8 years ago, for about a week I played another Conn
8D with a Lawson leadpipe and found that my accuracy was much better
than with my horn "

Good accuracy is fundamentally (pun intended) matching the note or
partial you hear in your head to the note or partial you play on the
horn.  No ear=no note.  Good ear and wacky harmonics of the instrument
itself=trouble but sometimes managable.  Wacky ear and good harmonics
on the instrument=bad technique-usually breathing and embouchure
tension.  Which catagory you are in is beyond deciphering on an
internet forum.  If you are positive it isn't some personal technique
issue then read further.  Otherwise go get some lessons with a pro
player.

The first thing you should do if you are serious-even if you have had
your valves replated or bearing tightened-is send your horn for an
evaluation with a specialist like Osmun or Pope or Atkinson or
Patterson or Chuck McAlister or any of the elite guys I didn't
mention.  There are things that can affect the horn like solder blobs,
misaligned slides, tension in the bracing, etc that can cause the
harmonics to not line up properly.  Also, the venturi could have been
reamed incorrectly at the factory causing more problems than one might
imagine.  In fact, Conn was sort of notoriously lax on that particular
issue for a while.  In the US, there are only about four or five
people I would let try to reset the venturi but it would be a darn
sight cheaper than either a new horn or a new mouthpipe.  A good 8d
pipe is a nice sounding pipe.  Is yours a good one?  I can't tell from
here.

Lawson mouthpipes are very good pieces of gear but again a good stock
8d mouthpipe is more than adequate.  If the existing mouthpipe is
undamaged and the venturi is correctly set then it is entirely likely
that you will not notice any change in "accuracy" by switching to a
Lawson pipe.  If the mouthpipe is damaged then you might indeed notice
a large improvement...but that would be true no matter the which brand
quality mouthpipe were used though again Lawson pipes work very well
on 8d's.  Basically I would have a goal in mind for a specific
harmonic or aural change before I changed the mouthpipe unless it is a
repair issue.

These are my opinions and YMMV.  Dealer dock fees may apply.  Not
valid with other offers.

Caveat lector.

The Jack Attack!
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re: [Hornlist] blue juice

[John Dutton]

I have been using 50/50 Al Cass & Blue Juice since 1993 on rotor faces and
have never had a stuck or gummy rotor whether it was a vintage 8D, Eastlake
8D, Alex, Yamaha, or even the Sansone in the attic.  This 50/50 mixture was
recommended to me by a highly respected repairman/horn maker so I think I'll
trust it (no offense to Steve M).  Of course I have never used Blue Juice by
itself either.  

 

As to the person who left their horn in the trunk for two seasons in PA, I
highly doubt that the person's horn was free of growth prior to being
forgotten.  Really, forgetting about one's horn period indicates a few
things by itself.

 

The Jack Attack!

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Re: [Hornlist] Horns at IHS Denver - What did you like what didn't you like?

[John Dutton]

Quote:
"but I think that might be because I play a large horn, and switching to
smaller, more resistant horns would take a lot more than 5 minutes of
testing in a exhibit hall. "

--

This is a common problem with folks trying horns.  They don't actually know
how to adjust to the horn, they can only try to make the horn adjust to
them.  And this problem isn't limited to young folks either.  Sure, there is
some fine adjusting to be done by acclimation but as a whole it shouldn't
matter one wit whether the bell throat is large or medium.  For instance,
the cylindrical tubing of European horns is actually larger than the 8D.
There is value in trying lots of different horns but it helps to know how to
go about it.

The Jack Attack!

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RE: [Hornlist] Out of tune Conn 8D

[John Dutton]

There are many instances of 8D's having an F side that was too long or too
short and the same for a too long 3rd valve crook.  Additionally or
alternately, as the 4th valve (and others) begins to leak the two sides of
the horn can easily become mismatched.  First check for valve compression
and then look to alternate causes such as tubing lengths.  In most cases
these can be fixed moderately easily.

The Jack Attack!




-Original Message-
message: 5
date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:34:59 -0700
from: David Laraway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
subject: [Hornlist] Out of tune Conn 8D

A question for the repair people on the list.
I have a horn student with a Conn 8D (serial #970*** - which seems to put it
as being made in 1961 or 1962). I noticed he was playing a lot on the F side
in places where the Bb side would have made more sense, so I asked him why
he was doing that. He told me it didn't sound as good because it was out of
tune on the Bb side. I checked it and he was right. The only way I was able
to get it in tune with itself was to push all the F tuning slides (not the
valve tuning slides) all the way in and then had to pull out the main tuning
slide until it was almost falling out to get the horn to a 440 A. Basically,
the Bb side is a bit too short. Is this something you come across often, and
what can be done most economically to fix it.
What's odd to me is if this horn is that old why hasn't this been noticed
and taken care of before. Makes me wonder if something was replaced at some
point and the replacement wasn't quite right.

Thanks for any input,
David Laraway

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RE: [Hornlist] NHR But no saxophones?

[John Dutton]

Remember.they are Army strong!  Go Big Red 1!

The Jack Attack!
(USMC-we never promised you a rose garden...)




-Original Message-

subject: [Hornlist] NHR But no saxophones?


Parachutist crashes into US army brass band
Last updated: 10:02 AM BST 18/07/2008
This parachutist made a memorable entrance to a military parade =96
knocking over musicians like skittles after landing on top of a brass
band.

Three members of the US army's 1st Infantry Division needed hospital
treatment after the accident yesterday.


It occurred during the opening ceremony of the division's review in
Fort Riley, Kansas.


The first of two civilian skydivers landed safely, but Scott Hallcock
missed his target by around 50 yards and careered into the band.


The back row of musicians bore the brunt of his feet-first landing,
which caused gasps of horror from the several-thousand strong
audience.


The band's commander said his musicians did not see the approaching
parachutist because they were staring ahead waiting for the ceremony
to begin.


"You can't hear anything when there's someone coming overhead," Chief
Warrant Officer Scott MacDonald added.


One band member was knocked unconscious and another reported neck and
head pain, but both have now been released from hospital. A third, who
reportedly broke his leg, was still being treated.


Two tubas were destroyed and a trumpet was badly damaged.


The parachutist, who said that he veered of course after his parachute
lines became tangled, declined medical treatment.

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[Hornlist] NHR - Rexburg question

[John Dutton]

BYU-Idaho is indeed the former Ricks College.  In Rexburg there is the
college, the hospital, a non super sized Walmart and the nearby St Anthony
sand dunes.  The best part of Rexburg is that it is only 77 miles (124km)
from West Yellowstone.  Nearby Rigby is the home and museum of the inventor
of the, TV Phil Farnsworth.  It hasn't grown much since you were there
Peter.  I don't and have not lived there but West Yellowstone is considered
neighbor distance in mountain west terms.

http://www.byui.edu/

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Mozart Horn Concertos

[John Dutton]

[quote]
And so, my question:
Who do you think is the best player of those three?
[/quote]

You have got to be kidding me.  Tuckwell was principal horn of many
orchestras and recorded the Mozart concerti on at least five occasions (let
alone all his other recordings).  Dale Clevenger has spent 42 years as
principal horn of Chicago Symphony.  Eric Ruske won a paying job with
Cleveland at age 21.  You should wish you played as well as any of them.

Just on the off chance you are not a troll I'll tell you to go listen to the
Brain recording and also the Lowell Greer recording.  If your real question
was which version is closest to Mozart era style then these two recordings
will come much closer to answering your question.  Also, go read the Charles
Rosen book(s) on classical style, Casals & the Art of Interpretation, Bruno
Walters On Music and Music Making, and Quantz Art of Flute Playing.  Now go
study the Neue Mozart-Ausgabe manuscripts or best of all Professor Pizka's
book Das Horn bei Mozart.

And no, there is no point to asking who is the best player.  

The Jack Attack!

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re: [Hornlist] Idaho a cultural vacuum? I don't think so.

[John Dutton]

Hi Valerie,

I replied with several options for the young lady at the time.  All of them
involved effort on her part so the onus was moved back to where it belonged.
There is lots of culture in Boise and Moscow and the rest of the citizenry
is appreciative of what they may or may not understand.  The Boise
Philharmonic is one of the best orchestras of its budget size anywhere.
They in fact are in a conductor search at the moment so we shall see what
rises from the flames of change which are often healthy.  Chamber music is
exceptionally strong in Boise.  Several former acquaintances of mine make a
mostly full time living at chamber playing (though they won't ever get
rich).  Also, the Sun Valley music festival (in summer of course) is a very
nice little festival as well.  If you are into jazz (or wine) then the Ste.
Chapelle winery outside of Boise has a summer jazz festival that is
excellent too.  No, there is no doubt that young lady was significantly
mistaken.  As a side note: BYU only acquired the college at Rexburg in the
last couple of years.  BYU itself has a much larger and stronger music
program though not of course on par with Julliard/NEC/NU/etc.  The Utah
Symphony is another good orchestra to see in concert.  At any rate, my rant
is winding down.

The Jack Attack!



[quote]
A few months ago, a student attending BYU-I in tiny, obscure Rexburg, Idaho
was searching for a natural horn to play for her senior recital.  If I
remember correctly she credited the difficulty of the search possibly to
Idaho being a cultural vacuum. (Can't remember her exact words, so I hope
you catch my drift.) Well ... I beg to differ.  Tuesday evening I had the
opportunity to hear the touring BYU-Idaho Sinfonietta perform the 4th mvt of
Mahler's 5th, Vaugh William's 5 Variant's on the Lazarus theme, a Dvorak
string Suite & a few other pieces I can't recall. It was stunning, flawless,
gorgeous. I've never heard students perform so well; they sounded like pros.
It was a very moving experience. My only disappointment w/ the program was
there were NO HORNS! I was hoping to hear the student who was looking for
the organic blaster.  

Anyway, if Idaho is a cultural vacuum, the suction is seriously compromised
in Rexburg.  Bravo Idaho!

Valerie in Tacoma 
[/quote]

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re: [Hornlist] Leadpipe on older King double

[John Dutton]

I would suggest you try an Alexander mouthpiece.  I have found any of the
stock Alex mouthpieces fit my King-Schmidt model horn.  I am reasonably
certain they will work for you too.  They should also be fairly readily
available.  My recommended models would be the 8M or the MY15.

The Jack Attack!



Quote:
OK, so King used to use a mouthpiece receiver that only really fit with
their mouthpieces. What's the best approach for dealing with this if you
want to use a different mouthpiece? Can the receiver be modified, or does
the leadpipe have to be replaced?


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[Hornlist] Pan American Natural Horn

[John Dutton]

Quote: "Hi, I was looking through the hornplayer.net site, and found a
natural horn of Pan American make."
--

The Pan American brand was a mediocre quality school brand making a single F
horn in addition to various other instruments like saxophones.  In fact the
sound of the Pan American saxophone is remarkably like the vintage Pan
American single f horn or vice versa.  It is only a natural horn because
someone has done a valve-ectomy on the poor thing.  Actually, it probably
plays better as a 'valveless horn' than it ever did in its original
incarnation.  It will NOT play like an authentic natural horn but might meet
your needs depending on price.


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[Hornlist] Brahms Trio

[John Dutton]

There is a recording of some time ago,late fifties-early sixties- "around
the horn" I think was the title--the artist,Joseph Egger-- in which (my
recollection is that) Eggers states that although written for the hand horn,
after the initial performances Brahms realized that various passages were
better suited for the "keyed" or "valved" horn.

Shel
-

While I think Brahms likely unwillingly accepted that the valve horn would
be the instrument used, but having performed the Trio on natural horn
several times I cannot believe there are any passages that work better on
valved horn.  If so he wouldn't have continued to compose horn music/parts
in the same style.  Also, all remaining correspondence that is extant after
the premier performances still shows Brahms to desire the use of natural
horn vice valve horn.  If anyone has any non-apocryphal research to the
contrary I would be interested in reading it.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Instruments

[John Dutton]

"can someone tell me the most popular instruments played by American major
symphony horn players?"
 ***

Really, this question serves no purpose.  If this is some survey question
for school work then this is not the resource for the answer-and it's a lame
academic query.  The answers to the question are going to be as varied as
the person answering them.  Even on hornplayer.net there is no guarantee
that the instruments listed are 1)the only instruments used 2)the list is
even current.  It would be more valuable for the individual to figure out
what type of horn fits them best rather than worry about what is the most
"popular."  If the purpose is to try to decide what makes up the "American
Sound" then the answer is that the "American Sound" can be produced on any
given equipment by a good player-it's all/mostly in the mind.

The Jack Attack!



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[Hornlist] The truth about instrument repair and maintenance

[John Dutton]

"Back in my day, we didn't have shoes.  -Gary"


Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour
before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours
a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when
we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our
graves singing Hallelujah.

And you try and tell the young people of today that . they won't believe
you.


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[Hornlist] NHR-streaming brass brand radio

[John Dutton]

http://www.allbrassradio.com/playlist.php

 

Double post.

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[Hornlist] Re: tuning a double horn

[John Dutton]

Steve H. wrote:
Interestingly enough, the earliest 103s didn't have a MAIN tuning slide
either.  The leadpipe fed directly into the change valve, then you had the
little Bb slide on the front and the F slide on the back.  Totally
independent tuning!  The earliest Pelletier model Kings with the piston
thumb valve did the same thing.  
-

Wow, that must have been a really early Pelletier Schmidt.  I have one made
circa 1928 that has a main tuning slide + independent Bb and F slides.  I
will just mention another oddity to that horn.  It came stock with an
Alexander taper on the mouthpipe.  In fact it plays better with an Alexander
brand mouthpiece than it does with anything else-it sort of comes more
alive.  I wonder if all of the pre WWII HN White horns were that way or just
the Pelletier Schmidt?  

The Jack Attack!



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[Hornlist] Mouthpiece Insertion Depth - Different on my 2 horns

[John Dutton]

Steve wrote:
Horn #1 = Alexander Bb single, vintage ~1975.
Horn #2 = Yamaha 666, vintage ~1982.
Mouthpiece = Pizka.

I measured how far the mpc goes into the lead pipe on each because I noticed
it goes in less far on the Yamaha.

Alex = 24 mm insertion depth
Yamaha = 19 mm insertion depth

What am I to do about this?  Which is right, which is wrong, and what, if
anything, should I do, assuming I wish to continue to use this same
mouthpiece on both horns.


Steve, the old European mouthpipe taper generally and the Alexander taper in
particular is designed with the venturi point farther into the mouthpipe
than the loose US standard of 1/2" - 5/8".  It is just a different design
element and nothing to be too concerned about.  Now if you had said that one
Yamaha was 19mm and the other was 24mm that would be unusual. 

The Jack Attack!


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[Hornlist] RE: Tuning of a double horn

[John Dutton]

Now, I have no idea about these water slides people talk about whether or
not they pop.  My horn has one main tuning slide, 1 Bb tuning slide, and 2
slides that work for the F side of the horn.  Whether or not one is supposed
to be a water slide I was never told.  I have noticed that one seems to be
the main slide for the F side of the horn and the other F slide seems to be
for "fine tuning".  I don't think it is just a water slide because if it is
in all the way the F side is way out of tune.  
-

Dawn, I'll assume from your description you have a Holton horn.  Just to
clarify, this is the slide (on Farkas horns with the little Holton emblem on
it) closest to the independent Bb tuning slide.  This is exactly the slide
referred to as a water slide.  Most Kruspe wrap horns-this includes the Conn
8d and Holton Farkas and Merker models-have this slide.  If you are using
this slide to tune the f side of the horn then something is wrong with your
setup.  It is not a fine tune adjustment and lots of times will negatively
affect the harmonic series if it is pulled out-especially if pulled all the
way out ;-)  This auxiliary F slide will only pop if the thumb valve is
actuated and if the thumb valve is tight.  Also your right hand position
sounds a little dodgy to me.  Improper right hand position will more
adversely affect the overtone series than any of the myriad standard issue
mouthpieces out there.  Check out the Osmun website for the Merewether
article on right hand position or review the section in the Farkas book.  

The Alexander 103 model does not have this slide at all.  The Alexander 103
has the shared main tuning slide at the end of the lead pipe.  It has an
independent F horn slide just to the right of that.  Turning the horn over,
it has an independent Bb slide just off of the thumb valve and of course it
has the six slides for the other three valves.  Professor Pizka has already
stated some good general starting points for these slides.  I would also say
that the newer Alexander 103 horns are more consistent than some vintage
versions with regards to tuning and evenness of scale.  

The Jack Attack!


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[Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn-tension

[John Dutton]

Amy wrote:
That was a big help, because my prof tells me a lot that I DO have a problem
with tension, but he never mentioned anything about it affecting tuning.
Since my change in embouchure, I've felt that it takes a lot more effort to
play the high notes.  That's where the tension came from, trying to get my
range back.  I've been trying to work on letting the air flow freely, and
keep my shoulders and neck relaxed, but I find it difficult to even realize
I'm doing it while practicing on my own.  I do breathing exercises, try to
keep as relaxed as possible, but I don't think it's really doing much since
every week, I still get told about tension. I know pressure on my face isn't
a big issue, because we experimented with a spring loaded pressure device,
and I did pretty well on it. Any recommendations about how to work on this
on my own? Do you think playing on the knee, rather than off, would be any
help? 
--

Let me give you a for instance
A dear friend of mine is a great player.  He sounds good and has good
command of the instrument and his pitch is good.  His slides are pulled out
way too far because of upper body tension.  I've told him for years that if
he had six months where he could work it out we could fix this tension in
his neck and shoulders but he works too much and doesn't have the time.
About six months ago he was on a multi state bq5 tour and he ended up
needing to go to a massage therapist when he got back.  After the masseuse
got done with him, in order to play with anyone else he immediately had to
push his slides in to a spot I would call normal for a player of his
ability.  I hated to say "I told you so!" but I did anyway ;-)  It took him
about two weeks to shake of the massage and have to pull his slides out
again.  This last bit serves also to illustrate that it takes time for good
habits to replace bad ones (and two weeks wasn't enough for him)...and lots
of willpower.  Practice makes permanent.  Perfect practice makes potentially
perfect.  Then there is the bit about becoming comfortable with the new good
habits too.

If you have recently changed your embouchure you may need to work out your
range issues from a more remedial perspective rather than trying or
expecting to keep playing merrily along as before.   Playing on the knee
will not fix this issue as your posture is more likely to be correct if it
is the same for both standing and sitting.  Make sure your posture sitting
or standing is ergonomically correct so as not to add to the problem.
Proper hand position is of course necessary too but I think this is more of
a tension issue.  

What to do about it?  Take a weekly spa day.  Or push all your slides into a
more normal setting and turn your tuner on (one of the rare times I
recommend looking at a tuner).  Practice long tones blowing the note
"straight down the middle."  Don't lip the note high or low in the pocket.
Let the tension go in order to lower the pitch.  Consciously try to relax
your upper body and try to keep the embouchure as relaxed as possible.  I'm
not talking about pinky hook pressure.  I'm talking about tension in the
embouchure before the mouthpiece ever goes on the lips.  Also, while you
want to hold the horn with authority you don't want a death grip either.
You might try some yoga or taiji or sitting meditation to help focus the
mind and relax the body.  This tension thing is going to piss you off
royally until you figure out how to play with or without the tuner by
relaxing instead of pulling the slides.  Revel in the frustration because
you won't fix this issue until you work at it and it becomes a zen exercise.
I can't tell you more than that because I can't see/hear you play.  

Most importantly remember to work from your strengths through your
weaknesses and back to your strengths.  Never end a session on a bad note
unless you are in Bad Schplittendorf with Prof IMG or it is one of the 12
days of Clamsaa.  One good note becomes two becomes three becomes a strand
of pearls.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn

[John Dutton]

Amy wrote:
Snip>  It's also amazing to me, because I tend to be sharp, and try and try
to pull the pitch down in the higher register, but no amount of moving
slides will get the horn in tune. But when my professor plays the same horn,
he is almost always on the slightly flat side.  I couldn't get the horn that
low no matter what I did. 

Speaking of that... snip>>  I have a Hoyer 7801, and I expect it to be on
the sharp side, but it's ridiculously sharp in the upper register, and
always has been, even after I completely flipped my embouchure around.  I
pull my jaw down as far as I can before the note completely cracks, and it's
still up there.  If I pull the slides any farther, the mid/low register will
be flat.  I snip>>. Any suggestions so I'm not painfully out of tune all the
time?
--

Your symptoms describe someone who has excessive tension in the embouchure
and possibly the upper chest and shoulders.  The mouthpiece is an isolating
chamber and should be isolating loose fleshy lips in that isolating chamber.
Everything you have described in your own playing points to this.  There is
nothing wrong with your horn or your teacher wouldn't be able to play it in
tune or low.  Eliminate the tension in your shoulders and most importantly
eliminate the tension of your face and inside the mouthpiece and your pitch
will improve dramatically.  Your teacher should be able to help-if he can't
then either s/he isn't able to see it or you aren't hearing the message.
Good luck.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] orchestral Sousa

[John Dutton]

Trey wrote:
Though some may not consider it military, it is my understanding that the
Coast Guard Band in New London, CT is also exempt from basic training.
Perhaps someone can clarify this.


2 weeks of day camprank and promotion flow is similar to Navy structure
though slower as it's a closed system.  They are only considered military
when activated by the President in a time of war and at that time they would
become the second 100% non-deployable band.

>From their website "Musicians are not required to undergo the 11-week basic
training program; however, they must attend several training classes at the
Coast Guard Academy."
http://www.uscg.mil/band/cgbandrecruiting.html


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[Hornlist] orchestral Sousa

[John Dutton]

My son John, who served 4 years in the Corps has told me that the  Marines
that go through either Parris Island or the Recruit Depot in San Diego do
not consider the members of the President's Own to be real Marines since
they did not have to do any of the training to be Marines. The Marines are
still the best riflemen in the world.

A colleague, who's son is a trumpet player in the Corps told me that his
son's secondary MOS when he was stationed in the Parris Island Band was as a
rifle instructor. All true marines are marksmen first and promotion is based
on annual firing for record scores. 

I think John said something about the members of the President's Own not
being eligible to wear the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. John Dutton, is that
true?  I know you're a retired Marine.

Walt Lewis


The President's Own is the only band unit in the US Military that does not
require Recruit Training.  The President's Own is the only 100% by law
non-deployable band as well though in practice there are at least eight
other military bands I know of that are not deployable.  The President's Own
members are not considered to be 'real' Marines by the Fleet Marine Force
though in fairness the President's Own (my perception) doesn't consider
Fleet Marine Bandsmen to be musicians either.  As to the Eagle Globe and
Anchor, that is an emblem of the Corps and is utilized on the uniforms of
the President's Own.  

What the President's Own cannot wear are the crossed rifles rank insignia as
they are NOT riflemen.  It used to be that if you were a Fleet Marine that
passed the audition you could keep your crossed rifles insignia, but
sometime around Colonel Tim Foley's premiership this changed.  Col Foley was
definitely not a regular Marine and he was not upset by this fact at all.
At present there are only about four or five of the 100ish member unit that
were in the Fleet and they are required to abandon their normal rank
insignia upon transfer to the Marine Band.  Once you are in the President's
Own you cannot transfer back to the Fleet either-at least not through mere
mortal means.  There are regular Marines that are assigned to the band as
support elements similar to other 8th and I rotating assignments but do not
fill any musical role and they retain their normal uniforms and insignia.

To actually have the Marksmanship Instructor secondary MOS is considered
very prestigious in the Corps.  The first step towards that is to go to
Coaches school and then go to the MTU for further training.  The pinnacle of
this would be to become a Scout Sniper marksmanship instructor at Quantico
which is a whole other level and not open to most Marines.  Some Units make
it difficult to go to auxiliary schools depending on personnel in the head
shed.  

Walt I didn't actually retire from the Corps though I likely should have
stayed in and done so.  I was just LOTS older than the average Marine with
my TIS.  Scary Gary did the same thing though.  The hard part of that was
physical recovery time though I was in better shape than most of them.  The
hardest part for the 'kids' is the mental discipline and wasted energy.  I
loved being a Marine.  I appreciated military music but was under no
illusions as to it being equal to the top 20 orchestras in the US or
anywhere else.  Then there was that whole ex-wife thing that got mixed up in
there somewhere... I was a runner-up once and a finalist another time for
the President's Own before I got too involved in the Corps daily life to
practice enough chop maintenance routine.  I have since recovered.

The Jack Attack!


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[Hornlist] orchestral Sousa

[John Dutton]

Steve wrote:
That is on interesting thought, considering that Sousa's band almost never
marched... they played his toe-tapping "make you want to march" marches in
concert settings where no one (band or audience) would be marching.
-

Many of Sousa's marches were indeed composed later in his career after he
left the Corps but by no means all.  Sousa was in and head of the
President's Owns for many years and though they don't march in the same
sense a field band does they do (did) indeed perform marching ceremonies and
certainly did under Sousa's directorship.  During WWI Sousa tried to regain
his position in the President's Own but the best he could do was get an
appointment at the Great Lakes Naval Training Station.  Much of the work he
did there was also ceremonial and marching in nature.  Blah blah blah...all
this is to say that even if a third of Sousa's career was non-military in
nature he would certainly have known the gig-Manhattan Beach for example.
Other Sousa Band era greats would be "Looking Upward" and "La Reine de la
Mer" and "The Bride Elect."   Of course as a final point like most all of
the band leaders of his time-Clarke and Kryl etc-Sousa didn't like to write
out his arrangements the way he intended them played for fear that some
other band would steal his tunes and gimmicks.  Much of playing Sousa
properly has to do with the performance practices passed down by word of
mouth or experience.  My current favorite interpreters of recording are
Keith Brion, Col Bourgeois, Donald Hunsberger, and on a few occasions even
Tim Foley.  More than anyone wanted to know.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] orchestral Sousa

[John Dutton]

Daniel wrote:
I'm not familiar with these marches, maybe they are not so frequently played
in this part of the world. However I once heard, in a local classical music
radio broadcasting, a Sousa march called "Washington Post" (or something
like that), played by the NY Philharmonic conducted by Bernstein. I did find
that it was... how do you say...terrific! (It was a program about
Bernstein.)
---

I really like the NY Phil but I can tell you unequivocally that it wasn't
the same.  I'll go a step further and say that unless you have spent time in
a Marine Corps field band you likely don't have the feel for the flavor of
Sousa...not unlike how our beloved Herr Professor feels about
Austro-Bohemian horn music.  I'm not by any means stating the USMC has the
world's greatest music program but everyone has their niche-and they don't
do Kenneth Alford or Karl King that bad either.  Right Gary?

That said, Sousa operettas are a different matter and can be quite nice
fluff.

The Jack Attack!


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[Hornlist] AJ Pelletier

[John Dutton]

No...noSteve M got it right.  I was referring to Alphonse J Pelletier.
I'm afraid Damrosch was dead before Andrew was born so it is unlikely that
the two met :)

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] AJ Pelletier

[John Dutton]

So just out of sheer curiosity, does anyone have any info on who A.J.
Pelletier was?  The only thing I can track down is he played in the first
part of the 20th C with Detroit and Cleveland.  

 

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] No way, hose.

[John Dutton]

Cabbage, Andrew thanks you and I do too!  I saved the info (conical vs
cylindrical) this time in a file.  Hopefully, I won't confuse the matter by
adding a bit.

Cabbage describes:
"In an open natural horn, the playing frequencies are integer multiples of
the lowest frequency:

1 2345 6  7  8  9 1112 

Middle C is the fourth of these; an octave higher is the eighth.  And 8 is
twice 4, giving a true octave 2/1.  G is the third of these; an octave
higher is the sixth.   These are also in a 2/1 ratio."

-
Me:
In piano tuning (hey it brings in some cash to feed my horn acquisition
habit) we use these coincident partials to properly tune the 88 notes on the
instrument and account for the inharmonicity of the instrument.  Tuners
tailor the tuning to each piano based upon different "octave styles"
preferences.  Basically it breaks down to ratios of the above sequence.

Octave 2:1 (ie-200hz:100hz)
P5 3:2  (300hz:200hz)
P4 4:3  (400hz:300hz)
M3 6:5  (600hz:500hz)
M3 7:6  (700hz:600hz)
Octave + P5 3:1 (300hz:100hz)
Double octave 4:1 (400hz:100hz)

These numbers are theoretical as the inharmonicity of a given instrument
will alter these numbers-sometimes minutely and sometimes greatly.  For
instance, one will often find a Steinway D concert grand will be 30-40 cents
sharp of theoretical at C88. To bring it home, these ratios correspond to
the harmonics produced on our horns.  More than you wanted I know Andrew but
you asked...

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Lead pipe & response Qs?

[John Dutton]

Valerie wrote:
(1) As I posted earlier, I've recently been playing with a very nice little
Holton 278 that has been either modified or repaired w/ a Holton 180 lead
pipe.  I'm curious to know if putting a 180 lead pipe on a Holton 278
changes it from the original.  Does anyone know if a H180 lead pipe is
equivalent to a H278 lead pipe?  
 
(2) This horn has a nice response, much like the response on my Yamaha 667.
Would good care effect the response of a horn over time or is response
related to some other inherent features of the instrument itself (such as
the lead pipe, how well it was built, bell flare, the brass, etc.)?
 
(3) Something else about this little Holton 278.  It's 15 years old & has
the nicest, slickest valve action I've seen.  It was chem cleaned once, two
years ago.  Am I correct to assume that consistent good care is what has
kept these valves in such good condition?
 
(4) The bell flare shows repair so some pretty significant damage near the
screw ring, but this doesn't seem to adversely affect the sound of the horn
(or may be it helps???).  I was told that damage to a bell will most likely
effect the sound if the damage is nearer the wider end of the flare.
Comments?  Opinions?
 
Valerie Wells, balanced embouchure student  
--


Hi Valerie,

First off let me say that I am not one of the horn repair/maker gurus and
this is condensed version of my understanding of the subject which I do
study.  However, they don't post much anymore so let me take a crack at
this.

1- The H278 is a screw bell version of the 178.  The differences between the
178 and the 180 were mostly that the 180 had a large bell throat and the
mouthpipe had a very slightly different taper.  So the stock H178/278 and
the stock H180/280 have slightly different mouthpipes.  The original Farkas
model (the Farkas 77) was more closely related to the 177/178 and the ones I
have played were very good.  When the model line was ramped up to the
177/178 (medium bell) 179/180 (large bell) some changes were made to tapers
and bells too and the sweet little Farkas 77 went away.  Bob Osmun wrote a
posting some years ago about how an H178 he modified was one of the better
horns he had played.  Kendall Betts had a recent post that described some
aspects of leadpipe design.

2- Speed of response is affected by the taper of the mouthpipe as well as
the metal of the mouthpipe (a nickel pipe generally responds quicker than an
identical rose pipe), the tightness of the valves, and the general
assembly-stress of the horn itself.  This last bit really separates a good
horn from a mediocre or bad one regardless of design.  Response should only
change over time with respect to damage of one sort or another to the horn
or crud growing in the horn.  An example would be that valves leak more over
time which affects the response.  The bell flare could change the response
if it is damaged or if that particular bell is 'dead' and has no carrying
power.  The bell again wouldn't necessarily change over time unless it were
damaged or modified in some way.  

3- I would say that consistent good care is crucial in all horns and one can
see poor care very quickly in any instrument whether 'student' or
'professional.'  I would say that a 15 year old Holton normally would have
had the valves re-plated at some point to be tight and 'slick.'  If they are
tight and original then the owner was both lucky and provided very careful
maintenance.  Just for the record-cylindrical valves can be very tight and
are used on some pro level custom horns too.

4- Damage to the bell throat and flare is really a crap shoot as to whether
it will ruin the bell.  The metal is more supported in the ring area both
from the ring and from the smaller tube.  In fact sometimes a bell throat
with weak metal can be rehabilitated by installing a bell ring.  Of course
some bells are designed to be light and thin and a heavy bell ring might
adversely affect the response too.  The bell rim area is highly susceptible
to damage as it is virtually unsupported and of course is the part most
likely for the player to lean on in rehearsals or to bang on surrounding
impediments like chairs and stands and furniture.  The bell rim is also the
last area of metal to vibrate in producing the sound.  The key point as I
understand it to repairing a bell-or indeed any part of a brass
instrument-is to stretch the metal as little as possible during the process.
After all, you can't really squeeze the genie back in the bottle.


This is sort of a Readers Digest version but hopefully doesn't contain any
factual errors.  I hope I'll be corrected publicly or privately if it does
by the gurus.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] horn comparison

[John Dutton]

[Q] Tim wrote... IMO, the ideal hand position is the Chambers hand position
(palm upwards). It lets you here your 'core' sound (Tony Halstead's words)..
Also..it's true when people say you sound less bright in a hall as a horn
when you play..But again IMO, you won't sound an 'darker' either...[/Q]

--

 

Chambers felt that he himself had naturally a too bright sound.  That was
why he adopted the equipment (the original C1 and large throat nickel horn
combo) and the hand position he used as told by the man to Caesar LaMonaca
in the late 40's.  As to the sound in the hall, most folks that aren't
careful-and most are not-mute their sound by cupping their hand in an
attempt to sound "dark."  I agree completely that a good core sound is
essential and that whatever hand position is used should not muffle or mute
the sound.  I myself prefer holding the horn the same whether standing or
sitting but core and projection go hand in hand.   Basically, whether one
inserts the hand palm up or palm down (same as a standing position) one
should not cup the hand too much.  The Merewether article referenced by
Valerie I find to be a good reference.  

 

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Andrew is hosed

[John Dutton]

The physics of a garden hose are those of a straight tube/cylinder.  The
overtones do not fall in to the convenient pattern we are familiar with on a
conical instrument.  If you add a funnel on the end of your hose (come on
Cabbage!) it will help the problem but not solve it.  Several years ago
there were several threads on this subject but I didn't find them quickly
enough to show the links.  Mon Chou could explain better if he chimes in.
While your lips need to buzz the note you want, if the buzz frequency
doesn't correspond with an overtone of your 'instrument' then you will be
hosed.

 

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Strauss 2

[John Dutton]

Amy, check with David Thompson at www.thompsonedition.com .  I am sure he
can help.  Of course I also found a link for rental parts at Boosey here:

http://www.boosey.com/pages/cr/catalogue/cat_detail_rental.asp?musicid=3100

 

 

The Jack Attack!

 

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[Hornlist] Holiday Greetings

[John Dutton]

[Q] Tonight I was sitting in my easy chair with my left arm on the arm
rest,and I played for a couple of hours with no shake at all and no hint of
a shake.  

 

My question is this:  Is there a commercial product out there that on can
rest there arm on while playing?  The weakness is slowly getting better, but
in the meantime, something like a left arm rest would prove valuable. [/Q]

---

 

Milton, you might try to modify a Pipstick to rest on your thigh.  Paxman
sells a version on their website.

 

http://www.paxman.co.uk/pages/index.html?http%3A//www.paxman.co.uk/pages/hor
ncentre/hornaccessories.html%23Horn%2520Stick

smaller url http://tinyurl.com/2n9cfg

 

 

or this one from the Netherlands

http://www.hornstick.nl/English/index.htm

 

and Pip Eastop's website

http://www.pyp.f2s.com/framesets/inventionsframeset.htm

 

 

All the best,

John Dutton

 

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[Hornlist] Thursday humor: Halleluja Chorus

[John Dutton]

With respect to colleague Lawrence, I beg to differ.  This performance is
the one to end all others-and it has subtitles of a sort ;-)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D09DCZryG2U

 

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Bell Flares

[John Dutton]

[Q]  
How much different will a particular horn play with a different bell flare.
I have a 1 year old Atkinson with a rose brass bell and I've noticed I can't
play as loudly as I could on my old 8D before the tone takes on that
characteristic raspy edge. Any thoughts?  Would a nickle silver bell flare
in the 300,000 series size change the playing characteristics very 
much?
[/Q]

Hi Jim,
Different bells can have dramatic effects on how a horn plays.  This is
perhaps more true of older horns than newer horns but applicable to all.  My
most aesthetically pleasing bell is one I don't ever use as it makes my horn
a chore to play.  Someday I might find a horn it fits up better with but
maybe not.  Bells new or old that have been damaged and repaired or
sometimes even undamaged new bells can be 'dead' and have zero carrying
ability.  This 'deadness' often is not apparent to the individual playing
the horn as they perceive plenty of volume up close but that might diminish
drastically after even 20 feet of perspective.  At any rate, I would think
this would not be the case on a new Atkinson.  Also, you didn't say what
style Atkinson flare you have now so comparing it to Mark's 300,000 series
Elkhart model is impossible.  By changing alloy and size you are changing
quite a few variables IMO.

Be careful of judging your volume by what you hear at your ear.  Often when
we change equipment we forget that we need to adjust our perspective to that
new equipment.  Have someone you trust listen to you at the back of the hall
and also get feedback from trusted ears in a performance situation if
possible.  Often a very efficient bell will not seem to sound as loud up
close to the player with the result that we 'think' we are not as loud as
before.  The instinct is then to drive the horn harder which is often
counterproductive.  The key point I think is to know when the core sound
starts to blossom.  

I encountered this same situation when I changed from playing a beautiful
and powerful 8d (800xxx) full time to playing a beautiful and powerful Alex
103 full time.  Even though I knew better intellectually, I had to go
through an adjustment period.  I had the advantage of having trusted ears
(Caesar LaMonaca and Don McComas) in the audience to get feedback from and
it made all the difference.  I tend to now judge my volume by more criteria
than the tinnitus level in my ear alone.

Hope this helps,
The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Re: mouthpiece w/ Schmid horn

[John Dutton]

[Q] 
Instead of adapting something that I know fits me well, does anyone know
of a vendor from whom I could simply BUY a mouthpiece outright, that
would be similar?  I believe the rim diameter is 18.5 mm, and it seems
to have a medium-deep cup, compared with others that I own.
[/Q]

I found on my older Alex 103 that having the European shank made all the
difference in the world.  I get my O5 with European shanks from John Stork.
The Stork Orval 6 is 18mm ID but John has made custom mouthpieces for lots
of folks.  I even recently read (and I am likely to try) that Stork has made
upright tenor(uk)/alto(us) horn mouthpieces.  

More to the point would be that Stork is producing a Stagliano mouthpiece
that has an ID of 18.3mm.  I am sure he would cut that shank to a Euro
taper.  I was going to purchase a J6 with said taper but fundage ran short
this fall and it will be a spring purchase instead.  If you bought one and
didn't like it I am sure we could work something out :^/

Give him a call.  Either he will be able to adapt something he has or can
copy your Laskey and cut the shank to Euro taper.  Along those lines,
Moosewood could also custom copy your Laskey with a Euro shank or I believe
he has some 18.5mm ID mouthpieces as well.  If you didn't use such a wide ID
rim I could just loan you an O5 when I'm close to KC around xmas.  I've got
to drive through anyway to see outlaws.

The Jack Attack!



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Re: [Hornlist] Mouthpiece with Schmid horn

[John Dutton]

[Q] I was wondering what kind of mouthpiece everyone prefers with a E.  
Schmid horn?

Thank you. Robert
[/Q]
---

Mine

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Another Kruspe question

[John Dutton]

[Q] After spending many weeks taking just a single F (Conn 4D) to rehearsals
and using it for the following concert, I got that particular monkey off my
back.  I'm convinced that practicing on a single F is good discipline, too.
You just can't let yourself get sloppy. [/Q]


I have also used a single f for rehearsals and even concerts.  My useful
single f horns are a 1930's Conn 4d and a single f made in Bohemia-I haven't
rounded out my Alex collection quite yet.  I might switch more regularly to
a single f when the blessed day comes that I acquire my first Wiennerhorn!
I even use a single b horn as a descant horn and have lately been looking at
single f alto horns.  Don't get me wrong, I do value my double horns and
utilize all the f and b horn in all ranges as phrasing and the music demand
whether conventional or not. I just agree with Jerry and Carlberg in the
value of the venerable single f.

The Jack Attack!
(...wishing a Pizka or Jungwirth pumpenhorn would fall from the sky...)

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[Hornlist] Re: Hiooo Silllver!

[John Dutton]

Sorry about that, I didn't misunderstand, I just saw that small portion of
your statement as a convenient jumping off point for a little 8D
cheerleading.  My point simply being that 8Ds don't get no respect on this
list.  Even if you MODIFY them, they'll still sound pretty good!
   
  - Steve Mumford
--

 shouldn't jump to conclusions.  Sorry I got a little feisty and you are
absolutely right.  I love a great 8D and there isn't any danger of
extinction for sure.  I have an all original M series and my 800xxx series
is only modified by having a Kruspe mouthpipe and string thumb linkage.
Both are very nice horns.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Mouthpiece lacquer or lack of

[John Dutton]

> I recently bought a Paxman mouthpiece. After playing 2 weeks on it, I
think
> I am allergic to the metal. I'm going to have it lacquered but am curious
as
> to what the mouthpiece is composed of. It doesn't look like it has any
> lacquer (gold, silver-nickel) on as it's a dull tan colour. My tentative
> guess would be brass?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kerri


Raw brass would be my guess too.  Once one has had a reaction to brass
poisoning sometimes our tolerance level is lowered.  My suggestion would be
to call PHC or Moosewood or Stork or similar company and have the rim copied
in a non-metallic material like Delrin.  Having the cup plated to gold might
help as well but as was pointed out last year sometime, silver and gold
plate still have components that cause the reaction albeit in much much
smaller amounts.  Lacquer might work short term but it really isn't an
indefinite solution IMHO.  

Just my thoughts,
The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Giardinelli C10 Mouthpiece

[John Dutton]

[Q] Is Giardinelli still in business in New York city?? [/Q]
-

Bob Giardinelli opened his shop in 1946 in NYC.  Bob Giardinelli retired in
1984 and died in 1996.  At some point the shop moved to upstate NY
(1980's?).  There was a very nice article in the Dec1996 ITG Journal.  I
believe that the Giardinelli store is pretty much an online shop now and has
been absorbed into some parent company that owns several other online music
stores.  I may however be full of c*** on this last bit.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Re: tuners?

[John Dutton]

For Stephen Colley's book/cd and description thereof:

http://tuneupsystems.com/

email = info @ tuneupsystems.com

 

The Jack Attack!

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FW: [Hornlist] Hiooo Sillllver!

[John Dutton]

  Sorry for the drastic snip there!  It seems to be the general feeling
on this list that the era of the big silver horn is over, however... A
friend did a survey of the section listings on Hornplayer.net and found that
by far the most used horn in American orchestras that actually pay money is
the Conn 8D, and most specified they were using Elkhart horns.  
  It seems the reports of the Conn's demise have been greatly
exaggerated!
   
  - Steve Mumford
--

Hi Steve,
You misunderstood. I never once declared that 8d's weren't being used.
However, there was a time when you  get a paying job in the US
without an 8d with one or two exceptions.  Your friend not withstanding, I
would also add that hornplayer.net is generally not the whole picture or
definitive as lots of the top players own/perform on more than one
instrument and most of the listings are not done by section members of those
top orchestras but by curious fans.  Further, if you were to do a real
survey of how many UNMODIFIED 8D's are being used your list would
immediately shrink.  Let's not make this a  8D argument
please.  I own and play (among other horns) a beautiful 800xxx 8d for years
so I am definitely not against them.  

Also, the original point had to do with why the Chambers series mouthpieces
were so often recommended.  They work in general reasonably well on Kruspe
wrapped horns.  That was my point.  Reading anything else into it isn't my
intent.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Giardinelli C10 Mouthpiece

[John Dutton]

[Q] 
Could someone please explain what makes this mouthpiece desirable? 
[/Q]
_

The C series mouthpiece is a staple recommendation for a few different
reasons.  

1) The mouthpiece itself is based upon the particular one that Chambers used
although he himself (at least through circa 1950ish) never recommended his
own mouthpiece as he felt it was too large a bore for most folks.  Chambers
used a #1 bore.  Chambers' students and admirers wanted to play like
Chambers so of course they wanted equipment like Chambers used which is how
Caesar LaMonaca and Ross Taylor got Bob Giardinelli to start making the
mouthpieces in the first place around 1947 or 1948.  I don't have any idea
whether Chambers ever used a Giardinelli brand mouthpiece himself or not.

2) The cup and rim shape is commonly recommended in 8-12 bore as a nice fit
with large nickel silver Kruspe wrap type horns.  Larger than an 8 tends to
be too big and smaller than a 12 or 14 tends to be too small.  Personally I
feel the inner diameter rim is too narrow at 17mm but it is comparable to
the ID of the Holton Farkas mouthpieces.  It is definitely not my first
choice for a Geyer/Knopf wrap or an Alexander but it does work reasonably
well for Kruspe type horns.  Also remember that in the US large silver
Kruspe horns dominated for 30 years or so.

3) Giardinelli was the original source of copies of Jimmie Chambers'
mouthpiece (as well as Singer, Stagliano, and Schuller) so the name has
become synonymous with the C series.  The online Giardinelli store does
still list a few Chambers (1,4,6,8) mouthpieces.  John Stork, who was once
the custom mouthpiece maker for Giardinelli, is not only more consistent in
the accurate replication but has expanded the series with 17.5mm ID (CA) and
18mm ID (CB) versions and in these bores (1,4,6,8,10,12,15,18).  

I feel obliged at this point to discourage folks from now going and
purchasing a mouthpiece or indeed any other equipment just because some
famous player happens to use it.  Equipment selections are best made with
the assistance of knowledgeable teachers/pedagogues and particular goals in
mind.  There are of course general recommendations most teachers make ala a
C8-C12 for Kruspe type horns for younger players who might then never change
as they get older.  Changes however should always have a purpose rather than
being random or whimsical otherwise it's just a waste of money.

Hope this is helpful,

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Re: tuners?

[John Dutton]

The best and most sensitive tuner on the market (that is not for piano
tuners specifically) is Peterson VSAM.  It is not the smallest and you won't
throw it in with your valve oil.  It does however have an excellent
metronome and good tone generator as bonuses.  Peterson also makes a clip on
contact mic which my wife uses all the time on her contra bass to tune
during the cacophony of pre-rehearsal "warmups."  Without trying to start a
nascent war on tuners, most people don't use them correctly.  We should rely
on our ears and relative pitch.  

No tuner is truly relevant in an ensemble situation for several reasons:  
1) All these tuners are measuring equal temperament which we don't use in
ensembles or especially as soloists.
2) Any given note is malleable depending upon what the chord is and where
the note lies in the chord.
3) There is not one ensemble in the world no matter how good where the first
two points don't apply and in fact the opposite is true. 
4) Sitting in a chair in an ensemble and getting frustrated because "by god
that damn other person came in 53 cents sharp" is non productive.  You still
have to play in tune.

Some useful ways to use a tuner:
1) Set the tuner to an arbitrary note-say middle C (C4).  Close your eyes
and -hey you there...stop peeking- play our horn 2nd line G in the treble
clef.  Play it until you get it the most  and beautiful tone you
can produce.  Now open your eyes and see what the metronome says in the
split second before your eyes tune the note to be with the tuner.  Do this
same thing now on horn low g.  Once more on low c.  Now you are starting
work with learning how the partials line up.
2) A better use of the tuner though is the use of the drone tone.  Start a
given note then play perfectly in unison with the tone.  Move now to the
octave.  Move down to the 5th then 4th back to the 5th then to the unison.
Don't move to the next note until it is perfectly beatless or as close as
you can come.  Do the same pattern again and try to be instantly in tune.
Do this in all keys major and minor.  
3) Similar to point 2 above-start the drone tone and beginning with the
unison pitch play an ascending scale against the drone and then a descending
scale.  Do this again in both major and minor modes.  Each note will have
its "slot" where it belongs.  As much clash as a 2nd has to our ears, there
is a proper placement for it.
4) My all time favorite exercise is only possible with a simultaneous 12
note strobe tuner.  These are old school and I don't know many folks that
have them anymore.  Play any given note and see how many wheels you can
stop.  If you are producing a rich and resonant sound then your
tonic(sounding) pitch as well as the 5th should stop pretty easily.  How
many other harmonics can you get to stop?

These things are exercises I was doing before Stephen Colley codified his
system.  His Tuneup System breaks it down Barney style as both interval
exercises and harmonic exercises.  Whether one utilizes Steve's book or my
recommendations or someone else's ideas, the most importantly thing is that
one NOT TUNE WITH THE EYES.  Tuning with the eyes is the malady that affects
most users of these devices.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] hard to find mpc's -- CORRECTION

[John Dutton]

For those looking for the Chambers series mouthpieces:

 

John Stork produces the best reproductions of this C series which has an ID
of 17mm at the rim.  Stork also produces the same Chambers series in a
17.5mm ID rim designated CA.  These are generally what I recommend to those
wanting a Chambers mouthpiece.  Stork also manufactures the Chambers series
in an 18mm ID designated as the CB.

 

Stork worked for Bob Giardinelli for years so has plenty of experience with
these series as well as the J, S, G, and B series.  For even more historical
tidbit:  it was Caesar LaMonaca and Ross Taylor who convinced Bob
Giardinelli to make mouthpieces.  Up until then Giardinelli made clarinets
but apparently was pretty handy on his lathe and as the fellow who made
Chambers mouthpieces was retiring they needed to find another source.

 

www.storkcustom.com

 

The Jack Attack!

 

ps-I don't get a commission from Stork and he doesn't know me from Adam.
Besides, I play the Orval series.

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[Hornlist] former Principal of KC Symphony

[John Dutton]

I knew Franano was in there somewhere thru the 90s, but I couldn't remember
when. He was still there when we were at UMKC, wasn't he, John?
--

Yes he was.  I think Franano finally retired towards the end of the decaede
in question-maybe 1998ish.  Freimuth was principal from 2000-2005.

John


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[Hornlist] Re: Pictures/Bernst/NYPhil

[John Dutton]

It was my understanding from Caesar LaMonaca that once Chambers was hired as
principal then Singer moved to alternate principal.  Ricci was pretty old by
this time and tended to play assistant in the 40's early 50's  waiting for
retirement.  I wouldn't have figured Ricci to still be playing in 1958. 

 

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] former Principal of KC Symphony

[John Dutton]

Clevenger was principal horn in 1964 or so.  Frank Franano won the position
somewhere around 1968 at the age of 19.  He played principal until
retirement in the mid-late 1990's though Dave did all the heavy lifting at
the end.  Dave Everson was co-Principal in the '90's with Frank and Steve
Multer was assoc.  When Dave went to Detroit, Elizabeth Freimuth was hired
as principal.  Until the successful audition Steve Multer took over duties
as principal.  Now that Alberto has been hired, Steve has moved to 4th.  My
recollection on Frank Franano's tenure dates might be mistaken though that
covers things in rough fashion.

 

The Jack Attack!

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re: [Hornlist] Holton Farkas Serial Numbers

[John Dutton]

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re: [Hornlist] lead pipe & mpc connection

[John Dutton]

I've been tootling around with a very, very old Holton H177.  It plays quite
well considering the condition it's in, except it has a slightly stuffy
middle C.  The mpc goes in about 1 - 2 mm farther than on my newer horn.  I
have two questions:

(1) Do any of you know if this flaw can make a significant effect on the
playing quality of a horn (such as the stuffy middle C?)?

(2) What can be done to remedy this?

Valerie


Most US horns are designed with a venturi point between about 1/2" to 5/8".
As horns wear through usage that point can get reamed out by mouthpieces and
move the venturi.  To be sure the venturi point is not reliable on most
factory produced horns.  Some move this point with the idea of altering the
high register though not usually the middle.  To know what is 'correct'
would be to know what the original designer intended for length of taper in
the mouthpipe.  If the pipe is not too screwed up it is my understanding
that a caliber of repair person like Paul Navarro, Stuart DeHaro, Wes Hatch
et alia can reset the venturi to a more proper distance and also reset the
taper to Morse 0. 

The Jack Attack!


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[Hornlist] John Barrows

[John Dutton]

At the end of his career, John Barrows played a Holton Farkas model-I think
it was the 77 or the 177.   I don't know how many years for sure but I know
for fact this is true.  If you thought the picture was Conn-esque then the
horn you saw was the Holton and not the Schmidt.

 

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Re: Opinions on methods-my real d*** long reply

[John Dutton]

--- G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would like to hear (read) some opinions regarding a few method books:
>
> Singer
> Dufrasne
> Schantl
>
> I already know what I think of them. I'm curious what others think.
>
> Gary


_Joseph Schantl-_
I utilize the Grand Theoretical and Practical Method as a precursor to
Kopprasch. In Schantl's grand scheme Kopprasch (Opus 6) was part 4 of his
four part plan and was where transposition was introduced. Part 3 here in
the USA is known primarily from Max Pottag's Preparatory Melodies to Solo
Work.

The Grand Theoretical Method is really practical in that there is a section
covering all keys major and minor with exercises in each interval m2-10th.
Additionaly there are exercises outlining the tonic, subdominant, dominant,
diminished 7, and minor tonic. The range rarely goes above G clef top
line/space. I use these for students and myself also because the mid/low
register is ignored in most standard methods and hence most folks are weak
in this register.

I personally try to review a different key section daily and assign sections
as weekly reviews to students even after they have progressed to harder
etudes/solos/exerpts.

This book aids in learning transposition because it makes one quite familiar
with all keys and their fingering patterns. After all how can a person
transpose to even Eb or D horn if they don't have command of the key in
question?


_Dufrasne-_
I find this to be a well designed maintenance routine for air and
flexibility. It will also help build endurance if Tom Bacon's advice is
followed in the preface. When using the routine I try to ignore the B horn
as much as possible and concentrate on the harmonic series and the F horn
and of course the air flow. This routine is too advanced for young players
unless it is modified and bitten off in sections (cabbage bait). For young
or inexperienced players I limit the range of the exercises until technique
is built up. I assign the sections (1-11) one at a time until the routine is
completed.

I myself do the complete routine every day and utilize sections 2, 3, & 5 as
warmdown materials when needed after heavy sessions or performances.


_Singer-_
The Singer Embouchure Builder book is a collection of Joe Singer's exercises
put together to address some specific things.  I strongly feel that until a
student is already in moderate 'shape' that they should avoid any of the
routines contained and stick to individual exercises for particular remedial
instruction.  The heavy routine will destroy a careless user not help them.
I utilized this book primarily before going to Chicago and while there
studying with Mr Clevenger.  I have had almost no students since then that
were either dedicated enough to use more than a couple of exercises or were
capable of stopping themselves once they were worn out even if they had not
completed the routine.

**I only recommend using this valuable tool under supervision of an
attentive teacher/pedagogue or after a high level of self discipline and
maturity has been reached. The heavy routine in its entirety is really not
wise for daily use by the average Joe.  Again, I never recommend beginning
the complete routine until one is in decent shape already.  It is not a
means to "get into shape" from scratch.


Caveat lector,
The Jack Attack!
(Gary you said I could go ahead and post!)

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re: [Hornlist] Geyer wrap, anyone?

[John Dutton]

Hi Valerie,

 

The type/shape of the wrap doesn't matter one iota.  The difference in how a
horn plays is in the design and relationship between:

1.  The tapered parts-ie the mouthpipe first branch and bell

2.  The type and quality of the metal alloy

3.  The thickness of the metal of the various parts

4.  The quality of the valves both material and fit

5.  The quality of the assembly and finish work-ie no solder blobs and
no introduced tension in the solder joints.

 

Everything else is just cosmetic.  I have excellent horns some custom and
some not based upon the Kruspe wrap, the 6d wrap, the Alex 103 wrap, and a
few crazy wraps with lettuce and bacon.  I have played Geyer and Schmidt and
Schmid horns too.  All these myriad horns-provided they are quality
instruments-are more similar than dissimilar.  Additionally, even with a
discerning audience I sound like me.  The feedback I get is limited to the
carrying qualities (clarity) of the horn in question and not the
brand/wrap/metal.  The question for me is what feels better for a particular
type of playing.  

 

Regards,

The Jack Attack!

 

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[Hornlist] OT-a pro's perspective on listservs

[John Dutton]

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[Hornlist] RE: King Single B-Flat [model 1158]

[John Dutton]

Kathy Lowe wrote:

> All this is leading up to my question.  Is there
> anyway to get this little horn under control without
> spending a fortune on a valve job and a lead pipe?
> Should I try a smaller mouthpiece, a different hand
> position, or should I just hang it on the wall next to
> my Olds alto horn and call it a failed experiment?


If it were my horn and it had that old style King mouthpipe, I would have a
competent repairman ream the mouthpipe to Morse taper 0 and set the venturi
at the proper distance.  There are no modern mouthpieces that will fit well
on the old style pipes and reaming the pipe will be cheaper than a new
mouthpiece.  As far as the valves, have that same good and competent
repairman tighten the bearings.  That is the best you can do without
spending large amounts of money IMHO.  Ruining a mouthpiece shank to me is
not a good fiscal decision.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] RE: Sansone horns

[John Dutton]

Lorenzo Sansone did in fact stencil his name on horns such as some of the
signature 5-valve B horns which were made by Alexander or Paxman.  He did
also have a horn factory in NYC prior to WWII where he built and
experimented with his horn designs.  The double horn in question with the
"reversed" valve slides that everyone loves to hate, was so pitiful due to
one of the sons.  Lorenzo was mostly retired by this time and the son had
bid out to the US Quartermaster Corps to supply instruments for the Army
bands.  The resultant product was built like a tank, assembled quickly and
poorly by unskilled labor, and played like one might expect.  These USQMC
horns sort of torpedoed the Sansone name as far as instrument manufacture
and the sons then concentrated on the sheet music business which of course
is Southern Music Company and remains successful.  Caesar LaMonaca's father
was friends with Lorenzo and in fact Caesar had a Sansone double when he
first went to NY/Julliard.  I think the best of these doubles might be
charitably called decent and average.  Lorenzo's efforts and energies were
definitely spent on his 5 valve single design(s).

The Jack Attack!


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[Hornlist] natural horn rental

[John Dutton]

[Q] I'm a senior at Brigham Young University-Idaho and I've got a senior
recital coming up in October.  One of the pieces I'm performing (Goodbye to
a Friend by Jeffrey Snedeker) calls for an E or Eb natural horn.  I've been
playing it on my modern horn (in Eb), as if it were a natural horn, but it
would be really neat if I could get my hands on a real natural horn for the
recital (and a bit before so I can practice with it).  Idaho is the
anti-culture center of the world (and our campus currently does not own a
natural horn), so does anyone know of any way I can rent a natural horn from
someone/someplace nearby?  [/Q]



BYU-Idaho might very well be the anti-culture of the western US but I feel
quite certain that Boise and Moscow would sure take umbrage to your
statement-of course they aren't in your university system either.  There are
natural horns and fine players in both those locations.  Perhaps you should
contact Pam or Dan or Jennifer or David in Boise or Bob Dickow in Moscow.
Perhaps you should contact your parent school in Provo.  At any rate,
Rexburg is only 4.5 hour drive to Boise or only a little more to SLC.  Maybe
offer an exchange like a day at the St Anthony sand dunes for the loan of
the natural horn.  Maybe a case of my favorite Wasatch Brewing Company
beverage-Polygamy Porter-would do the trick...why have just one...

The Jack Attack!

http://www.wasatchbeers.com/polygporter.html
Their motto is:
We drink our share and sell the rest!

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[Hornlist] Horn Quartet Album

[John Dutton]

[Q]
The back of the record jacket very clearly says Lauba... Different guy? [/Q]


Clearly a misprint.  Very common in liner notes actually.  Even word
processor processed pedantic prose can be jacked up by a spell
checkerand none existed when those liner notes were created.

As an interesting aside, Paul Binstock was one of Kavalovski's teachers at U
of Minnesota.

Principal Horns of CSO:
Dutschke (1891-1895)
Ketz (1895-1896)
De Mare, L (1896-1922)
Hoss, W (22-23)
Frank, W (23-27)
?
Farkas (36-41)
Helen Kotas (41-47)
Farkas (48-60)
Leuba (60-62)
Brouk (62-63)
Van Norman (63-65)
Brouk (65-66)
Clevenger (66-)


The Jack Attack!


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[Hornlist] Horn Quartet Album

[John Dutton]

[Q]
Thanks for the info. I've been to their site but never looked at former
members.

Lauba (sic) was '60-'62
Barrington '54-'64
Brouk '62-'63 and '65-'66
Binstock and Wirth not listed

So my guess would be early '60's for this recording. [/Q]


Frank Brouk was principal for those years but was in the orchestra from
1961-78.  And again it is _Leuba_ and not Lauba.  Chris is still alive and
kicking in the Seattle/Portland area.  Might as well spell his name
correctly.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Horn Quartet Album

[John Dutton]

[Q]
Thanks for the info. I've been to their site but never looked at former
members.

Lauba (sic) was '60-'62
Barrington '54-'64
Brouk '62-'63 and '65-'66
Binstock and Wirth not listed

So my guess would be early '60's for this recording. [/Q]


Frank Brouk was principal for those years but was in the orchestra from
1961-78.  And again it is _Leuba_ and not Lauba.  Chris is still alive and
kicking in the Seattle/Portland area.  Might as well spell his name
correctly.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Custom slide for 70's Alex

[John Dutton]

Jack, Randy _is_ my repair person.  Getting it from Alexander was his idea.

-S-
---

Oops, sorry.  One place I get tubing from is MK Drawing but that would take
time too.  My contact at Alexander is Reimund Pankratz. They don't ever
reply instantly but my experiences have been satisfactory.  I have waited a
week for a reply.  They have made me auxiliary a/e slides for a 103 and
otherwise always been helpful.  If your German is good enough you might call
directly.
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rhein. Musikinstrumentenfabrik GmbH
Bahnhofstr. 9, D-55116 Mainz
Germany
+49- (0) 6131-288080
+49- (0) 6131-224248 (fax)



The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Horn Quartet Album

[John Dutton]

On Aug 15, 2007, at 10:38 AM, "Dennis Herrick"  
 wrote:

> I just bought a horn quartet album on ebay. "Members of the Chicago
> Symphony". It's got Christopher Lauba, Paul Binstock, Wayne  
> Barrington,
> Robert Wirth and Frank Brouk ("presently solo horn")
>
> No date. Anyone know when this was the horn section?
>
> A closer reading of the back seems to indicate that the are not all  
> members
> of CSO. Lauba was Professor of Music in Puerto Rico, Wirth "has  
> played in
> Minneapolis six seasons"; Binstock "teaches music in Roseville  
> Minnesota".
> Maybe only Barrington and Brouk are CSO?
--

Chris Leuba (correct spelling) was principal after Farkas retired but before
Clevenger (1966-) so say first couple of years of 1960's.  It was quite
common for musicians to hop orchestras after only a few seasons so Binstock
and Wirth might very well have been section mates for a time.  Probably the
only definitive knowledge is possessed by Stormin' Norman Schweikert though
there are list members who were in Chicago at the time.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Custom slide for 70's Alex

[John Dutton]

When I raised the issue with my repair person, he said he would want to use
parts from Alexander and that, since these weren't parts he stocked
normally, I might as well have them make the entire thing.  I don't know
what is unique or not here and whether sound, appearance, or both are at
issue.

-S- 


Steve, go see Randy Ulmer in Joysey.  Email me offlist if you need the
contact info.  He would be able to fabricate the slide you want.  Alex
tubing is 12mm and standard US tubing is 11.89mm.  The proper tubing can be
purchased here in the US but not many shops have it on the shelf.

The Jack Attack!



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re: [Hornlist] Mouthpiece buzzing

[John Dutton]

[Q]

What are your thoughts on tongue placement in the mouth?  I am getting lots
of conflicting opinions on this.  Some people think it should be high to
facilitate good articulation, and others think it should be low to open up
the oral cavity and sound ??? I guess...I'm not really sure why some
people think it should be low.

[/Q]



 

I'm not Jonathon but as usual I'll give my opinion.  Start flutter tonguing
without the horn or mouthpiece.  Move your tongue forward and back until you
find the point the tongue moves the fastest.  That should be your ideal spot
for fast articulations.  

 

As to normal articulations, Dale talks about the tobacco tongue.  In our
current generations I call it the pop tongue since hopefully kids don't know
about the sensation of spitting a piece of tobacco.  Basically the idea is
to release the tongue as if you were spitting a hair off of the tip of the
tongue.  This creates a slight 'pop' from the air release though not harsh.
The best point for this type of articulation is at the edge of the teeth.
Using this technique one can play very legato lines with definition of
individual notes.  Where many folks get into trouble with articulation is in
slow legato passages.  It is counter-intuitive but the fingers must move the
valves firmly no matter the slow tempo and the tongue must always quickly
get out of the way of the air flow.  Many "no speakies" are caused by a slow
tongue and poor air support.  

 

The Jack Attack!

(54 days until freedom)

 

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re: [Hornlist] ear infection cure....horn related.

[John Dutton]

[Q] snip...and some studies have suggested that taking these vitamins
can actually lower your lifespan ( Aussie study).[/Q]



 

Of course there has been an increase in shark attacks and crocodiles in
Australia in recent years too.  Not that I draw any conclusions ;-)

 

The Jack Attack!

 

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[Hornlist] What should I be doing in the practice room?

[John Dutton]

[Q]  Thank you for the reply.  Does food intake and exercise really affect
your horn playing and practice?  For a while I was in really good shape and
dieting.  Then I won a full time military band position, and was PDQ'd for
reasons beyond my control.  I totally got off the band wagon with
everything, horn playing, practicing, exercise, self esteem, etc. after
that.  Should I be working out again?

Your ideas about practice sound really good.  In the past I have used a
recorder to keep myself from repeating mistakes.  Things have gotten better,
but I tend to be really unfocused in my practice sessions.
[/Q]
---

I highly recommend recording one's self.  It is hard to not be realistic
about the sounds we produce when it is right there in verifiable form.  We
fool ourselves sometimes consciously and sometimes unconsciously when
relying on our own ears while playing.  The Zoom H4 is reasonably priced and
is digital.  While many here like the mini disc format it is obsolete and
there is no sense investing in old technology. By the same token, if you
have a mini disc recorder there is no pressing need to upgrade either so
long as it works for you (I have one and it is too limited for anyone with
any real sound training) and you can still get the media.  Learning curve
for the Zoom is also going to be much quicker than any minidisc I have seen.

Our diet affects everything and so of course does our physical fitness.  I
should think there would be a correlation between being in great shape and
eating correctly (not necessarily dieting) and when you were playing your
best-winning a pay position.  Self esteem and self confidence increases with
the internal knowledge that something is within our capabilities.  

The physical aspect of horn playing IMHO is something that is necessary to
be addressed in each succeeding younger generation because physical exertion
becomes ever more foreign to our collective lifestyle.  It requires core
strength to play the horn well.  Supple musculature is developed only
through work.  I'm not suggesting trying to look like the asinine anorexic
models one sees in adverts.  I'm suggesting most aren't fit enough really
for the exertion required to play the horn at a decent or high level of
ability.  When I played the Strauss Op11 two years ago with my orchestra I
ran daily.  I started doing it to relieve stress but it increased noticeably
my length of concentration and endurance.  As another anecdote, when I was
in the Corps we of course worked out all the time.  Whenever we went on
leave I of course stopped and I always noticed a difference in my playing
until I worked out again.  Also, I noticed best results when I was working
the core muscles and not necessarily cardio only.  Last story and I'll quit.
Take a 20 pound bag of potatoes.  It takes X amount of effort to lift the
bag.  Let's say you work out consistently for a month or two concentrating
on your abs and shoulders and bi/triceps.  The perceived effort is now much
less to pick up those spuds but the physical amount of real effort is still
X.  The same analogy works for playing third space C.  It really requires
the same effort to play now as it did when you first picked up the horn.
The difference you have now trained to do the task at hand.

Okay enough for now,

The Jack Attack!
(old coot in training)

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[Hornlist] What should I be doing in the practice room?

[John Dutton]

[Q]Thanks for all of the good information,  How can I get a copy of
orchestral musicians CD Rom.  What is that?  Also, sightreading is something
that I generally ignore.  What is the best way to practice that?  Shouldn't
I be doing long tones, too? 

I like to do long tones on all of the notes on the instrument for one minute
every day.  Is this a waste of time?  One of my teacher's teachers did that
and he was a great player.

Another problem that I always run in to is time management in the practice
room.  I really only have two or three hours a day to practice, because I
work two other jobs plus students, etc.  Sometimes I don't even have that
much time.  My list of things to do in the practice room seems to always
come out to what seems to be about four or five hours of work.  Any ideas on
this? [/Q]


Sight reading is best practiced by doing it.  Reading every type of music
and style from easy to hard.  The idea is that once you can get all the
notes then the goal is to get all the notes and all the music-first time
through. Read at tempo.

There is nothing wrong with long tones.  Long tones-or quality tones as Dale
calls them-help settle notes into the ear and consciousness.  They are good
for warm up and warm down.

Time management.  This is the biggest obstacle to all young musicians and
indeed most people generally.  Initially you need to make out a weekly
practice plan.  In fact make four weekly plans.  This is not something that
is set in stone.  This is a guide but random playing or obsessiveness is
your enemy here.  Remember that you are self-teaching and most teachers make
lessons plans for many years before they 'wing it' using that earned
experience.  Obviously this will be a short term goal process since it is
just one month.

1. First step is HONEST evaluation of where you currently are.  Assess
strengths as well as weaknesses.  Say you have two hours of practice time a
day.  Divide that up into warmup, brief review of one or more strengths,
brief review of the previous sessions weak area, work on today's weak area,
warmdown.  The time for each section is determined by you and your chops.
Do not necessarily harp on the same thing every day.  This is why you make a
plan to keep you on track.

2. Keep a log of your practice.  Write down everything you play while in the
process.  Make notes on ease or difficulty of the task, how long you spent
on the task, observations on sound technique style etc.  For the truly hard
core, make notes on that day's food intake and exercise.  Note that what we
eat today affects us tomorrow more than today.  

3. When you begin tomorrow's session, review the prior several days to see
if any patterns can be established.  Certainly at the end of the week
re-evaluate your next several weekly plans and modify as necessary to make
most efficient use of your time.

Most importantly, every note that you play or sing or mentally play should
be as exact as you can make it regarding articulation and style and sound.
Any randomness is just lost ground.  This means your warmup and warmdown
too.  Try to begin and end your sessions with something you do very well
that is lyrical and sonorous.  This reinforces your joi d'vive of playing
the horn and helps prevent excessive frustration.

I could make more comments but start here.  Most folks don't have the
concentration to do this.  It's all in the amount of desire to improve.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] What should I be doing in the practice room?

[John Dutton]

This is not the end of the world.  In a month's time you can do quite a bit.
In addition to Jonathon's advice I'll add a little bit.  

 

The key to good low register sound and facility is strengthening the corners
with such a large aperture.  Most folks sound like farts in the wind because
their embouchure is not firm like it might otherwise be in the upper
register with a smaller embouchure/aperture.  Firm control like any other
thing requires attention and persistent proper practice.

 

Work the Schantl Grand Theoretical & Practical Method.  It's function
range-wise is just what you want. Alternatively you can play Kopprasch down
an octave (including transposing).  Play these exercises with a drone tone
so that you can practice your intonation.  This won't do more than simulate
playing with someone else but it will help improve your intonation.  Find a
trombone player friend and play duets-play your part C basso.  This will
help your low register and ensemble.  Do NOT forsake your high playing.
Find some lyrical  pieces for natural horn and work the harmonic series
concentrating on a singing style.  Transfer this same singing style to your
low register work.  

 

Of course get out your metronome and learn how to make music despite strict
tempi.  Music is what happens in between the notes too.  A good rule of
thumb is that things like rubato are more inferred/implied than dramatically
done.  It's sort of a zen koan.  Most important, do not try to generate
eight hours of practice daily trying to compensate for a perceived lack of
time.   Start modestly and add time as your fatigue point moves.

 

The Jack Attack!

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Re: [Hornlist] Student Question

[John Dutton]

SH wrote: 
[Q] And each of these things takes only a very few hours to get over the
learning hump.  Devising all sorts of compensating strategies to avoid
having to learn costs many more hours over a lifetime, and limits
possibilities.

So I say, take away her Bb tuning slide for a week or two.  Tell her it will
be difficult at first, but she will be a _much_ better player afterward.
(Emphasize the challenge!)  Tell her that you are her teacher, and that she
has to trust you or else find another teacher. [/Q]

---

This first part quoted is very true no matter what the task.  If it were as
easy to learn say transposition at age 40 from scratch we wouldn't have the
every-other-month debates over whether transposition skills are useful.

Having a flexible shift point is key for all of us.  This exercise of taking
the B tuning slide works just as well in reverse for those that refuse to
learn the complete compass of the B horn.  Jonathon's point of concentrating
on sound is a good one but facility on the horn should be equally as
important and this is best learned early on I think.  Besides, this does not
have to be confrontational in nature though some kids just like some adults
require confrontation to make headway.  These can also be important life
lessons as the world around us is not a touchy-feely-lovey-dovey place.
Slacking off gets us nowhere fast whether it's a government or an
individual.  

At any rate this still doesn't have to be a harsh lesson but it should be
learned (fingerings/flexible shift).

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Military instrument procurement

[John Dutton]

As someone who was only a step removed from the purchase process, I can say
that the DoD has a standard list of brands that are readily available
essentially pre-approved.  If a band officer or industrious IRT or whomever
orders for other services can write a good enough document about why they
need to purchase a particular brand of instrument then it will happen.  I
know that a horn player in the III MAW band convinced the CWO4 and the
IRT/Fiscal SNCO that they needed Alex 103's as their 'concert horns'.  They
also had a set of 8d's for marching/ceremonial use.   Most of the kids used
the 8d's full time as they were more comfortable on them.  DC/Academy bands
are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT animals than all other service bands.  The most
"special" (read civilian) band is the President's Own.  They are pretty much
not bound by hardly any of the rules and red tape of the rest of the Corps.
In summary, if the Band Officer and SNCOIC of purchasing can write a good
enough request and funding proposal, any service band could theoretically
get any type of horn they desired.  It helps to have a General who really
likes the band too.  In plain point of fact, the average service band member
would not be able to utilize the full capabilities of a custom horn anyway
and with the wear/tear/ABUSE instruments receive in the service it can
hardly be justified from any standpoint.  Flame away, but as the assistant
Repair Tech I saw lots of good people do really bad things to
instruments-usually right before a gig.  I can't tell you how many
solder/dent jobs I did in Dress Blues trying not to jack up my uniform.
After allI made that uniform ;-)

 

The Jack Attack!

(formerly Sgt USMC)

 

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re: [Hornlist] Lubricating Valves

[John Dutton]

I mistyped my last message.  The lanolin brand mentioned should have been
Lansinoh. I have found it at Walmart or similar places.

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re: [Hornlist] Lubricating Valves

[John Dutton]

Stephanie Thurston wrote: 
I just bought a brand new Conn 8D, and I was looking through the pamphlet
that it came with describing how to clean it.  It said to lubricate horn
valves to place valve oil down the tuning slide of the adjacent valve.  I've
never had of my private teachers or directors tell me to do this and I'm
unsure whether to do it.  Any advice?
Stephanie
--

The following was from a post one of the list gurus made some time ago.  
His preferred oils are: light oil (50/50 Al Cass/Blue Juice); medium oil
(Buffet key oil).  I use a very long needle oiler for placing one drop of
oil directly on the rotor face.


**
Oiling-inside valves with light oil- daily
Oiling-bearings with medium oil-every 3 or 4 days
Slides-medical grade pure lanolin-whenever a slide starts to feel very easy
to pull. Maybe every two weeks or so.

This regimen is based on about 4-5 or more hours playing per day.

Medical grade lanolin is available in tubes in drugstores. It is made for
mothers who are breastfeeding-so it is generally found in the baby
section-one brand name is Lashinoh.

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re: [Hornlist] Plating horns

[John Dutton]

[quote] Hans recently ballparked having a bare horn plated at roughly 500
euros.  I can't imagine that having just the bell flare plated would be very
expensive. [/quote]
---

I believe Hans meant plating the whole horn as that was the original
question.  Basically plating was used as an option opposing lacquering or I
suppose perhaps just for aesthetics.

Plating just the inside of the bell was from a different post altogether and
used to be common enough on yellow brass flares to help protect the metal
from the hand/body acid-protection from tarnish is a side benefit. 

The Jack Attack!

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re: [Hornlist] What makes Conns desirable?

[John Dutton]

[quote] Can anyone tell me what makes the tone of the Conn so nice? [/quote]

Well, since no one else is actually answering your question...

The 8D "sound" is made up of the particular nickel alloy, the tapers of the
mouthpipe, 1st branch and bell tail/flare, and thickness of the flare.  The
basic design of the 8d is from (circa 1937) Arthur Berv's Kruspe-Horner
model with modification of the mouthpipe (some say to a CF Schmidt style
pipe) and no doubt other slight design differences.  First production 8D was
circa 1938-moved to Abilene TX in1972-moved to current location in Eastlake
OH 1988ish.

*In the most **generalized** fashion* of description:
1. The mouthpipe affects the intonation and slotting and focus of the tone.
2. The bell and first branch affect the carrying power and tonal
characteristics of the sound.
3. Type of metal can alter either of the above to a greater or lesser
extent.  Given ***identical*** parts the color of sound would progress dark
to light: sterling silver-rose brass-yellow brass-nickel silver (sometimes
referred to as German silver).  Some mix and match materials ie a rose brass
mouthpipe with a yellow brass corpus and nickel bell.

P.N. could probably give a better description if he chimes in.

---

One of the most important things one needs to accept about horn shopping is
that the sound up close is not the sound the audience hears.  Test drive a
horn with TRUSTED ears listening in a performance venue.  Now swap so you
can hear the horn too from the back of the hall.  People often make poor
choices based upon the up-close sound they perceive.  Don't misunderstand
me, the horn should sound good up close too but that is definitely not an
indication of how the sound develops and blooms in a hall.  Don't deceive
yourself.

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] RE: Oil in the slides gumming the rotors

[John Dutton]

There should not ever be 'gunk' coming out of a hornnever ever.  If that
happens then:
1) proper oral hygiene habits are not followed prior to playing.
2) too much (excess) slide grease is being used in combo with over oiling.

Always brush teeth after eating prior to playing the horn.  Beer and whiskey
rinse won't cut it-well maybe cut the grease but not the buildup :^O   Snake
the mouthpipe regularly, perhaps weekly (or sooner if you absolutely have to
play without washing the mouth first).  Give the occasional deep cleaning
with warm soapy water.  Empty water completely before putting in the case
(remember the horn will generate condensation until it reaches room temp so
don't keep blowing air through it right up until storage).  Some people are
more naturally acidic than others and must therefore be even more vigilant
and diligent.

If it takes more than a light coating of grease to make slides work then
there are other fit & finish issues such as tube misalignment or buildup on
the slide legs themselves or already extant corrosion on the slide
tubes/legs.  I won't argue with anyone that puts oil in the slides
themselves because that works (provided the grease is not in excess) but
what works for me is a very long needle oiler and I put one (1) drop of oil
on the rotor face from each slide tube.  More than that should be
un-necessary unless one is flushing the valve.

Snaking the whole horn on a regular basis should not be necessary if the
above is followed.  Of course if there is significant buildup right now it
may require an ultra sonic cleaning to get a good fresh starting point.

The Jack Attack!

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RE: [Hornlist] Buying an Alexander mouthpiece online

[John Dutton]

subject: [Hornlist] Buying an Alexander mouthpiece online

Hi all,

I'm looking to purchase an Alexander mouthpiece online and I have had a hard
time finding sites that carry them, let alone from companies based in the
US.  I am aware of a retailer in the US that supplies Alexander horns and
would easily be able to order one but I am unwilling to patronize them.
While I would prefer a US based company for shipping reasons, I am not
opposed to ordering internationally if that is the only way possible.  Also,
if I were interested in purchasing a mouthpiece made by Tilz, aside from
purchasing directly, if anyone knows of a retailer that I can order from
online, I would greatly appreciate the help!

Thanks much in advance, Chris Tedesco

___

Chris, you can purchase Alexander mouthpieces directly from Alexander.  I
have done so on many occasions.  Either email Herr Pankratz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> or go to the retail website.
 look under
"Zubehoer."  Of course depending on what you are looking for, I might have
one right here...

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Conn Rose Brass

[John Dutton]

Quote:
"Last year there were many posts about the Conn rose Brass horns having only
the bell flair red brass and the throat being regular brass. I just heard
from a repair guy saying this isn't the case at all. So, what's the
truth here"
*

I guess that depends on how knowledgeable you think that repairman really
is.  If it's Walter Lawson telling you this then I would tend to believe
him.  

Conn advertises not only rose brass bell and throat but also rose brass
first branch and mouthpipe.  This is the same advert phrase used for the
10d, 11d, 9d, & 8d.  It's easy enough to check if you don't mind a deep
scratch on your horn ;-)  It would be pretty much fraud to claim all of
those critical components to be of an alloy they weren't and so readily
proven that they would no doubt be litigated over it.  

The Holton 181 claims: "Model H181 features a bronze bell that produces a
darker sound."  It has no mention whatsoever of bronze throat so legally
they would be covered.  The 1st branch and mouthpipe it states are yellow
brass with nickel ferrules and trim.  Still, without seeing one first hand
for proof I can't say for certain. I also don't see much point in a rouge
and lacquer coverup.  It can't save any significant money I wouldn't think.
Wes Hatch might be able to provide an answer.

The Jack Attack!


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[Hornlist] Re: Horn Question

[John Dutton]

Question.  Are there different versions of the "A midsummer night's dream"
Op. 61 Nocturne by Mendelssohn?

**

The wind instrumentation for the complete Opus 61 calls for only 2 horns:
[/2331, timp, perc, str, 2 solo sop, women's chorus]

There have been various arrangements of the original version- solo horn and
piano, three horns & optional piano (Kling-Teague arrangement), four horns
(Zamecnick).  Probably there are others as well.

The Jack Attack!



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[Hornlist] Patterson leadpipe

[John Dutton]

That's one way to go, but I would assume Luke's son is looking for different
results since a direct replacement would be the first thought, if satisfied.
My first choices would be Patterson and Lawson if they make something
applicable.
***

I would not just assume that he was looking for something different.  The
original post stated the son "needed a new pipe" which indicated to me it
had sustained some damage-though I also shouldn't assume anything.  

Maybe they are just looking for a change.  The Patterson and the Lawson
mouthpipes were designed for use on Kruspe/modified Kruspe wraps (around
.468).  They of course work well on a variety of horns but are not
necessarily universal for all types of horns (bore/wrap/bell combos).  The
Paxman horns (.472) are as well designed as any horn available and IMHO if
one wanted to change the characteristics more than changing the bell it
would be better to try a different horn than change a good design.  

Just another post for the delete key.

The Jack Attack!



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[Hornlist] Patterson leadpipe

[John Dutton]

Has anyone had a Patterson leadpipe installed on a Paxman Model 20?  If so,
what results have you seen?  My son's Paxman needs a new pipe.  Can anyone
recommend anything else?

***

Order a replacement pipe from Paxman. 
The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] cry, oh horn

[John Dutton]

Doesn't this process affect ferrous metals different than non-ferrous
metals?

The Jack Attack!


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[Hornlist] TSA letter boiled down

[John Dutton]

What the TSA letter boils down to is that musical instruments MAY be carried
onto a plane IF they meet the size/weight restrictions and number of bags
restrictions of whatever airline you are flying (gate attendant or
whatever).  The section alluded to regarding stringed instruments states the
same thing-carried on stringed instruments must meet the size/weight
requirements of the airlines.  All the TSA letter really states is that
(bagpipes and saxophones aside) musical instruments are not weapons of mass
destruction but are a little on the delicate side.  Of course this is all
for domestic US flights and non-US airlines will have their own policies as
well as the country being traveled to. 

“Carrying Instruments Through Screening Checkpoints:
You may carry one (1) musical instrument in addition to 1 carry-on and 1
personal item through the screening checkpoint.  This is a TSA Screening
Policy.  Airlines may or may not allow the additional carry-on item on their
aircraft. Please check with your airline before you arrive at the airport.

Security officers must x-ray or physically screen your instrument before it
can be transported on an aircraft.
Security officers will handle musical instruments very carefully and will
allow you to be as involved as possible in any physical screening.
If security officers cannot clear the instrument through the security
checkpoint as a carry-on item, you should transport the instrument and
checked baggage instead.”

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Conductors etc

[John Dutton]

Steve wrote:
Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical
endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success.
At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the
best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct
processes.  Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had
the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of
whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least
one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only
relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of
almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to
the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have
been able to determine, by other means.  Such is the way life works
sometimes, I'm sad to say.


We saw this happen in my orchestra in 2003 selecting our latest Music
Director.  The two best candidates scared many of the rank and file
"musicians" (who did not want to work hard) and did not suck up to the Board
of Directors sufficiently.  In their audition concerts the orchestra was
immediately raised to a better level of performance though they accomplished
this in two far different manners.  We ended up with someone who has had
twenty plus years of conducting experience but does not have the skills
necessary-IMHO of course-to conduct.  There is no sense of the arch and
vision necessary to conduct Bruckner or Mahler.  His/her "audition" concert
included Sibelius 5 which though it "wowed" our uncultivated audience was a
collection of mere gestures which themselves were not all correct.  He/she
speaks in vagueness often to try to evoke "feeling" and "musicality" but
this rings hollow when words such as shorter longer softer louder would
suffice better.  When it IS time to go into inspirational territory the
force of will needed to unify and convey the single vision is absent.  Too
much collaboration is attempted.  Often I feel he/she is learning repertoire
though it would be inconceivable to me to conduct for 20 years and have
learned the major works.
It is a better situation than the last Music Director who was both a
megalomaniac and had no skills or knowledge whatsoever.

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re: [Hornlist] tuning

[John Dutton]

Some further thoughts on the tuning issue.

Sometimes a particular horn requires a particular tuning solution.  For
instance, I have an Alexander 103 that I always play the c#2 on the f horn
1&2 especially in lyrical passages.  It is better in tune and makes for a
more legato line even switching to b horn on either side of the c#.  My
other Alex 103 and my Elkhart 8D's don't have this quirk.  Additionally, if
you have tuned your horn in a particular way for any length of time likely
you will require a period of adjustment to blow the notes down the center of
the slot (providing that you have made the horn more in tune with itself and
not less).  Finally, remember that one must utilize the double horn for the
tool that it is.  Once you have mastered using BOTH sides of the horn in ALL
registers you can pick and choose what works best for you.

The Jack Attack!

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re: [Hornlist] tuning

[John Dutton]

Ron wrote:
However the g through c on the f horn don't "sound" as good as the same
notes on the Bb side (where I've been playing them in the past) 
Will those f horn notes get better with practice using them? 
**

I believe what you are noticing is the increased amount of overtones in the
f horn notes.  In that octave there are something on the order of 6-10 more
overtones per note when using the f horn vice the b horn.  What this means
is the sound is more complex utilizing the f horn and this is what you are
interpreting as not "sounding" as good.  It may not sound as clear to you
initially but that is just not being used to using the f horn in that range.

Caesar LaMonaca told me of a particular concert run he did back in the 60's
in Houston.  They were playing Brahms' Academic Festival Overture.  The
third horn at the time played primarily on the b horn in all registers.  The
conductor stopped rehearsal three or four times complaining that he couldn't
get the "sound" that he wanted for a particular passage in the Brahms.
Caesar leaned over and told the third horn to use the f horn for all the
notes in question.  The next time through the conductor's face lit up with a
smile.  Somehow the more complex sound gave the appropriate sound which I'm
sure Prof Pizka will agree with.  

The Jack Attack!

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[Hornlist] Terrorism report

[John Dutton]

With all due respect to colleague Carlberg, this is not the forum for this
posting.

The Jack Attack!
(Whose name has nothing to do with terror or attacking-though the occasional
PFC/LCpl/Cpl sometimes felt otherwise)

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[Hornlist] buying a Conn 8 D from the years 1990-2000

[John Dutton]

Robert R wrote:

1.  Does that mean that the 42-399??? I am looking at definitely does not
have tapered valves?  The links on Ron's website are not very good for the
newer horns.  They do say however that the horns made in Eastlake are
superior to Abilene TX.  Is it possible that Conn still made crappy horns at
Eastlake from 1986-1992 (1993/94).  After this date it looks like the
??-442000 Horns would have had the tapered valves.

2.  How can I test to see if the values are leaking?

...Other than this the horn is in pristine condition cosmetically.  I found
some info on another website to use to help me trial the horn.

3.  Can someone explain what the following phrase means ?

"Get the instrument in tune with itself! "  Do I tune each note with a
tuner?

Any help in helping me make my decision would be appreciated.
**

1. Add 1950 to the 42 and the horn was manufactured in 1992.  This era of 8d
does have tapered valves as Conn/UMI resumed that practice when they moved
to Eastlake factory.  There are crappy and decent horns that are/were
produced in the Eastlake factory.  They are NOT the same animal as an
Elkhart 8d but if you ignore that and treat it like any other brand/model
when you evaluate the horn you will give yourself an honest opinion.  

2. There is the ubiquitous "pop" test.  Pull a slide without pressing the
valve lever.  In theory air shouldn't leak out before you press the valve
creating a "pop."  In practice, some folks like a little air leak feeling
that it helps with legato slurs.  Also in practice, moderate leakage doesn't
consign the horn to the rubbish pile.  More crucial would be that all valves
"leak" about the same.  Removing the play from the end bearings can fix many
ills with valves and is cheaper than a valve rebuild.  

3.  You can't evaluate an instrument if the slides are not adjusted so that
 the overtone series of each valve combination are in tune with
each other.  This goes for f to b horn as well as the various combinations
of valves.  Some combinations are inherently less in tune and there are
different viewpoints in how to counteract this.  If you can not put the horn
in tune-again relatively not perfectly-with itself then there is likely a
problem in the one of the tapered sections or the horn was assembled in such
a way as to cause structural stress or the valves are bad or it is just a
bad design altogether.  

One caveat here-if your embouchure and other mechanics are deficient this
can also affect being able to tune a horn and indeed to play in tune period.
Those whose playing mechanics are in good order have little difficulty
adjusting from one horn to another provided they blow straight down the
middle of the slot.  

The Jack Attack!

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