[Hornlist] Re: State Schools for MM Performance
I think if I was applying for an MM program in performance, the first question I would ask is How many students from your program have gotten professional playing jobs? - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Confusing transposition
I remember playing Mozart's opera Il Re Pastore and it has 4 horns, each one crooked in a different key. We were using hand horns and it really did mess with my sense of where I was. It's easy to get kind of comfortable on hand horn with knowing what part of the chord you have just by looking, but on this opera there would be, say a written C, but it ends up being the 7th of the chord. Not terribly difficult, but it took a little extra attention! Maybe some kind of perfect pitch would have helped. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Steve Mumford is irresistible to women
Ha ha! I L'd OL when I opened up the digest and saw a whole string of messages with the subject line: Steve Mumford is irresistible to women Sigh, sometimes dreams really do come true! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Racy talk
Dave Goldberg wrote: I whipped out my kit, bared her valve, banged on it a bit, drenched it with oil and it worked fine for the rest of the evening I love it when you talk dirty! - Steve ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: eat lead you varmint!
I won't disagree with your statements, but I've often wondered how it is that people in the business inhale metric tons of brass dust and handle all kinds of lead but still manage to live to a ripe old age. Geyer even ate those goose grease sandwiches to boot. I've been amazed to see the buffers at the factories covered from head to toe in buffing dirt but not wearing respirators. Of course the drawback of handling all that lead is that horn makers and fixers do tend to be a little batty. They say that was Nero's problem too. On the bright side, fixing horns does make you irresistibly attractive to women. - Steve Mumford William wrote: message: 1 date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:54:27 -0600 from: William Botte wab4...@hotmail.com subject: [Hornlist] Brass safety I hope that the manufacturers of mouthpieces take into consideration the he= alth and welfare of their employees. The microscoptic aerosol bits that re= sult from cutting turniing grinding and polishing are a health hazard to th= e workers making the mouthpiece and others around them. There are other me= tals that are as dangerous when inhaled. And dust masks=2C annoyingly refe= rred to as respirators=2C are virtually useless for protection. The Romans were aware of the inherent danger of lead way back when=2C thoug= h they tended to ignore it. Contemporary manufactorers should take a pro-= active approach to employee and end user safety. Would you let your child or pet eat paint chips? William of Wildomar _ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Mozartrios
Sweet! Here's the first page: http://dme.mozarteum.at/DME/nma/nmapub_srch.php?l=1 You might have to go to the link Michiel supplied first and sign in. The trios are in the Serie VIII Kammermusik for Streicher und Blaeser. They start on page 67. type in 67 and Gehe zu Seite. Wow, that's really nice! ok, I just tried the link above and it took me to the index. Click on Serie VIII, go down to (89). Click on the note to see the music or click on the i for a PDF file. If you click on the note, it will show the contents etc. Type 67 in the box and Gehe zu Seite 67. - Steve Mumford Michiel wrote: The complete New Mozart Edition is available for download, completely legal and free for personal use, at dme.mozarteum.at Michiel van der Linden ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: trios for three horns
For some really beautiful, fun and challenging trios, check out Mozart's trios for basset horns. Not exactly originals for horn but at least they're in F. There are several of them and they're all first rate musically. The 1st part goes up to high Cs and hangs above the staff quite a bit. The middle part is more moderate but still challenging and fun to play. The low part inhabits the bass clef and has all kinds of wicked cool licks. They'd be suitable for some very accomplished college students. To me, they sound a heckuva lot cooler on french horn than on basset horn but I'm biased. There's a recording out there of Chicago Symphony people playing them on basset horns. I wonder if the Telemann trios for two flutes would work on horn? - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Houser mouthpieces
Probably not of any help, but I just thought it was interesting. I was talking to a retired Detroit Symphony horn player today and he mentioned that the J series Giardinellis were the Jimmy Stagliano model. - Steve Mumford Klaus wrote: My mouthpiece since 1992 is a Giardinelli J4 with an 18mm screw rim which is narrow, flat, and has a sharp inner edge. I have worked on the throat and on the backbore. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Hoch
Despite some naysaying, I decided to answer my own question, just thinking of the B minor Mass. Why did Baumann play it on a single high G horn as opposed to some other key horn? One thing about Baumann, you can always depend that any ornament, trill, grace note etc. he plays is going to sound effortless and beautiful. If you try the Quoniam on a single high F horn, you find a couple of trills that just don't call forth terms like beautiful or graceful. For instance, Bnat. to C#. I dare you to make that sound effortless and graceful on a high F horn. The piece is in D horn, but I don't know of anybody who has a single high D horn. I thought about making a crook for the high F horn to put it in D for experimental purposes, but then I realized heck, for fly by night testing purposes, you could just hold down 3rd valve, pull the other valve slides a bit to be long enough for D horn and play the piece as written, kind of like a handhorn player, only with valves. Mostly, you only need the first 2 valves. I could see from looking at the music that it would work, but I wanted to try it because, I'm just a natural born lever puller. Well, as I thought, it works pretty much just fine in D. Now I'm not suggesting doing it that way on the F horn in real life, but I'm still thinking that a single high D horn could be a lot of fun and produce the right sound and style. that's what it's all about right? Might work nice for the Hornsignal Symphony too. Probably nobody could afford to own a high horn in every key the way trumpet players do, but if a friend or your orchestra had one, wouldn't you borrow it if it would make the piece easier to play, and easier to produce the right sound and style? Maybe Eb/D or F/E combined in one horn to save money. All right, what would be a cool piece for the single high Eb horn? I've got some nice bells in the Schrank and I'm itchin' to get the torch out. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Hoch
All this talk of high horns put me in mind of the video on You Tube of Hermann Baumann playing the Quoniam from the B minor Mass on a single high G horn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5DYhyiJtoEfeature=PlayListp=7D02097020E7F21Eplaynext=1playnext_from=PLindex=10 Sorry, the video seems a little out of sync, but the fingerings work out well on the G horn. If you try this on the more common single high F horn, many of the trills are really inconvenient to finger. So, the question is, can anybody think of repertoire that would work well on single high horns in other keys, for instance how about a single high D horn? Or single E? Trumpet players seem to have a different key trumpet for every day of the week. I'm feeling deprived having only 2 or 3 keys to choose from! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Neruda
Franz Streitwieser made a very nice recording of some of these high horn concertos using a Clarinhorn, an instrument of his own invention, something like a Bb post horn with valves. I think the Neruda concerto is on that recording, I'm not finding my copy immediately here but maybe somebody else can supply the details. Franz is a trumpet player by trade. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: leadpipes
Don't forget the leadpipes that have a sleeve over the first few inches and a guard plate after that. I had one particularly acidic customer who had eaten an obvious hole right next to the guard plate so I put an artistic little patch there, but what I couldn't see was that the pipe had eaten from the inside and had rotted out all under the plate. It was leaking from 10 different directions, but all hidden. That one played kind of stuffy. I uttered one or two of the magic words before I finally figured out what was going on. And yes, horn leadpipes do suffer the same indignities as trombone pipes, except that horn players usually do actually clean the leadpipe out every 5 years or so, so that's an important difference from trombone players. (I'm just saying) - Steve David wrote: Unlike a trombone where the leadpipe is contained or hidden by the outer slide, on a horn what you see from the mouthpiece to the change valve is the leadpipe. It is easy to see any damage, dents, dings, and other things like red rot [dezincification]. any holes that happen will be pretty visible if you keep and eye on it. and yes the typical metal problems occurr just as much as any other instrument.paxmaha Kathy wrote: I have a question on very old horns and lead pipes. My husband owns several old trombones (1940 and older) that have had to have the lead pipe replaced. When the pipes were removed, at best they looked like swiss cheese, at worse they came out in pieces. Can the same thing happen to the inside of a horn lead pipe (brass is brass after all) and how would you tell if your old trusty horn needs a new lead pipe? A trombone slide you can look through, but even then you can't tell if that pipe will come out in one piece or not. Kathy Anaheim, CA P.S. Do not watch a slide guru work on a trombone slide if you are the least bit faint of heart. Scary. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29
As Packard Motorcar used to say Ask the man who owns one. I think you'll have a hard time arguing with Paul on this one. - Steve Mumford Paul wrote: William, You may disagree with this statement completely, but it is important to consider two of your own statements. The first is: The sound might not be what you desire. If you don't understand how important the sound color and weight are in Baroque concerti ( or for all music), then there is no basis for a discussion. The second is : Also, where do people get the notion that below a particular note you must use another horn completely? If you can get away with the same horn and a decent sound and still play it musically, who cares? Robson's question was about a Bb/Bb alto instrument. My statement refered to that instrument. If you consider intonation part of what constitutes a musical performance, then you should understand that while it may be possible to play on only one horn ( and I assume you actually mean one side of this particular instrument- the Bb alto side), the intonation possibilities for the lower register notes using the normal Bb horn are much more satisfactory because you have more usuable overtone positions to work with on the regular Bb horn than on the Bb alto horn. Also the response on the normal Bb horn is much better for the lower notes than the Bb alto horn's lower response. If you want to limit your approach to just what is technically possible, you can play the Neruda on a single F horn--- all of the notes are there. :) Please let us know when and if you try this. I am sure a lot of us would like to be there. :) Paul -Original Message- From: valkh...@aol.com To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:10 am Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda I disagree with this statement completely. You can play notes well below the G above the treble clef. The sound may not be what you desire but it is completely possible due to the fact that the Fundamental is actually the F below the treble clef. This means F down to B natural is doable. Of course there's a break of an octave so the next series is F down to B natural an octave above - meaning the entire treble clef is playable - technically :) Also, where do people get the notion that below a particular note you must use another horn completely? If you can get away with the same horn and a decent sound and still play it musically, who cares? -William In a message dated 4/25/2009 11:34:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corno...@aol.com writes: Hello Robson, No, the Bb alto horn is very limited below the top of the staff- it is generally used above written high G. Almost everything below that requires a regular Bb horn. I have a Bb/Bb alto model 60, made by Paxman and have found very little use for it besides the Neruda and some other baroque concertos, and a few other symphonic compositions, like the Haydn symphomy #51. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: tuning meter recommendations
I got a very cheap QuikTune tuner, but I found an accessory pickup that clips on the horn and plugs into the tuner. It vastly increases response time and accuracy and blocks out interference from other sounds. It picks up the vibrations from the metal. It works as well or better than the expensive ones. The only trouble is, the thin wire for the pickup is an irresistible attraction to the cats! I had to replace it a few times after I left it hanging. Is response time all that important though? If you've got the thing on while trying to play in an ensemble, that can only lead to disaster. At home, I'd say you can get a better idea of your pitch within a phrase by recording it and listening back. Otherwise, for checking on an individual note you can probably afford the few extra milliseconds. - Steve Mumford Bill wrote: When I took up the horn again I purchased a Korg digital tuning meter. It's no longer working. I would appreciate recommendations on a replacement with attention to response time. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Eric Hauser's Horn?
I know I've seen a horn wrapped just like this one in an old Kruspe catalog but I don't have the photo. It's a single Bb horn. From the top it's (normal) 1st, 2nd, 3rd valves. The 3rd slide wraps upward to make room for the 4th slide which is an F extension. That's a seriously old horn as evidenced by the upside down rotor valves, a style that died out around the turn of the century or earlier. I have a single F by Richard Wunderlich that has those kind of valves. Is that a detachable leadpipe which would allow for the use of other crooks? Also, note the angle of the valves and leadpipe, more of a handhorn style spacing. Dennis Brain had his horn setup with a similar idea. Wish I could remember the name of the single Bb Kruspe model that was set up like this one. They had the Gretsch model, the Sansone model and the ... I'm betting Ellen Stone's horn is an Alexander 103. Steve Mumford Dick Martz wrote: -Hi, Guys: I'm puzzled by a horn in a photo of Eric Hauser:http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/Hauser/ It looks to me to be a single B-Flat horn with a fourth valve perhaps intended as an F extension, however the lengths of the third and fourth valve slides seem wrong. Both appear to be too long for a normal third valve slide for a B-flat horn and too short for an F extension. Actually the fourth valve looks about right for an F horn third valve. Any ideas? Also, does anyone recognize the other two people in the photo? Thanks, Dick Martz -- http://www.rjmartz.com/horns Horn Collection ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Pre-performance muscle condition tips?
I'd say, as the audition gets close, start making opportunities to perform your audition music. Play for friends, enemies, etc. As a practical matter, you can't really depend on two hours of playing to be at your peak, so start proving to yourself that you can play just fine with any amount of warm up, including none. With all the practice time you've been putting in, you should be about as strong as you'll ever be, so just play. If you're mentally ready to play, your chops will follow. Drive to a friend's house, pull the horn out of the case and play the audition. Pack up and drive to another friend's house and do it again. Play the audition outside, in the woods, on a street corner, whatever you can think of. Performing is the best way to be ready to perform. Play in different size chairs, play standing up, play after running up and down the stairs a few times, in a live room, in a dead room. Pick up the horn cold and play an excerpt. Don't be looking for your ideal conditions, you never know what the situation will be, so be ready for anything. Be sure you know the music beyond the little excerpts. So what's the ideal amount to play before the audition? You won't care that much, but there's not much percentage in practicing too hard the day before anyway. You'll want to be ready earlier than that. Hey, I just went to a couple of master classes with Phil Smith and Joe Alessi. According to them, still the number one thing to get right in an audition? Rhythm! - Steve Mumford Jesse wrote: I am approaching an audition and find myself mulling over some of the same questions that I keep returning to when attempting to get my performance in tip-top shape. I have been putting in good time and quality work on my material, but still don't pull it off like Baumann :P My high range needs some more stamina, so I have increased my routine from 3.5 to 5 hours a day with lots of frequent breaks whose duration depends on the intensity of the proceeding playing. Naturally day three of this and my chops are getting tough. So I think to myself, 'Maybe that's a good thing.' I've got 6 days until the audition and wonder when I should be backing off the long days. A few years ago I got it in my head that just playing a very very light diet of quality long tones and articulations the day before and of a concert or audition was best. Since then, I've noticed that I'll often play at my best on an average day 2 hours into practicing... and sometimes not. I'm sure you are all familiar with this. I am interested in hearing advice from a community of players who have no doubt arrived at some tried and true approaches to conditioning your chops in a time sensitive fashion. Thanks in advance for any help, Jesse Windels ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Black residue loose slides
That black stuff is leftover buffing and/or lapping compound that never got properly cleaned out of the horn at the factory. That is to say, unless you've had some work done in the meantime that involved lapping, or some shop that cleaned your horn may have buffed (ruined) the valves and left buffing compound in the horn, or buffed (ruined) the slides. Black stuff on the tuning slides is pretty much always a bad sign. Greenish or brownish is usually fairly benign. Getting all that black grit out of the horn isn't so easy. It's in the valves, it's in the inaccessible corners of the valve casings, it's in the bearings, it's around the corner in the knuckles, it's in the valve caps, it's inside the stop arms... Unless you get it out of all those places, it just spreads out again as soon as you oil the horn. It's in a lot of places that you can't reach with your snake. You can do it at home if you know how to take your valves out and get them back together properly. Get a bottle of ultra-pure lamp oil to use as a solvent, get a box of Q tips, and some white rags or white Bounty paper towels. Take everything apart, snake everything you can reach using plenty of the lamp oil, then follow up snaking again with plenty of dish soap. Then start going after all the nooks and crannys. You can dip a Q tip in the oil and use it to probe around corners. If it comes out with black on it, keep cleaning. Remember the valve caps and stop arms. Get it out of everywhere. You'll see on the white towels if you still have stuff in there. Should take you an afternoon to do, and if you're thorough, you'll be good to go. Good luck! - Steve Mumford Joe wrote: Hi listers, I have a 2006 eastlake conn 8DS. Since day one, every time I pull a = slide out of my horn, theres always some kind of black residue on the slides. = I've given my horn multiple baths and have snaked it frequently, and i always snake out the slide tubes and clean the slides befor applying new = grease. Why is this happening? I use Shilke tuning slide grease with lanolin, = and i use hetman 13.5 and 12 for the rotors. Is it because of the grease? Thanks, Joe Scriva ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Leadpipe Question
Or, even better, why not just use the fingering that puts it right in tune, with a great sound and makes it impossible to miss? Some years ago I did a tour where I had to play Somewhere every night. You know that solo, There's a place for us, Some-(G#)where a place for us. I never even had a thought of missing that note. The 2nd valve G# made that note sing out on the old Kruspe. No favoring, no lipping, no waving the right hand or magic wands, no praying. Just play it and enjoy. Not the same on many other horns of course. 2nd valve makes the G# flat on a lot of horns. It works pretty good on a lot of Holtons though. - Steve M message: 4 date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 21:33:49 +0100 from: hans.pi...@t-online.de hans.pi...@t-online.de subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Leadpipe Question But why not combining ear right hand to fine tune the 23 g# Or 1 on the F-side open right hand a bit ? == -Original Me ssage- Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 21:27:49 +0100 Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Leadpipe Question From: Steven Mumford mumfordhornwo...@att.net To: horn@music.memphis.edu First of all, please send all your original Kruspe leadpipes to me! G# above the staff has been sharp on pretty much all the pre-war Kruspes I've tried using the 2-3 fingering. 2nd valve locks it in nicely, open for the A. That's with an original pipe. It's anybody's guess with a brand X pipe. If a note is squirrely on a particular horn, it's often because that note wants to be very flat or sharp. You want it to be in tune, so you're trying to play it somplace that it isn't. Try and figure out where the horn wants that note to be and go from there. - Steve Mumford ___ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: NBC horn player under Toscanini 1948
I've been enjoying a lot of those Toscanini performances on YouTube lately. I was a little surprised by Jaenicke's phrasing on the Nocturne where he breathes after the D# (played). I had always thought of that note as a pickup to the next part of the phrase. The more I listen to it, the more I'm enjoying his tone quality. Somewhere I thought I saw that that performance was from 1937. - Steve Mumford Hans wrote: Thank you. Nice to find Bruno Jaenicke with Mendelssohns Nocturno. Nice vibrato but quite fast tempo. I found a list of people who played with the NBC here: http://www.classicalrecordings.org/znbc/nbcplayers.html That's probably Arthur and Jack in the video, Harry played 3rd.=A0=20 While you're in the neighborhood, check out the Midsummer Night's Dream = with Toscanini, Bruno Jaenecke on our favorite solo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy2IT2lnpWYw ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] All We Like Sheep
I dunno, I've been using anhydrous lanolin since 1975. My horn doesn't stink, no green stuff growing. It lasts a long time on the slides. My valves are fast. I don't put any oil down the slide tubes. If you do, don't put more than a single drop in each valve. More than that will travel all over and melt your slide grease. Loose slides? For some reason, a lot of repair shops think tuning slide tubes should be shiny. A lot of shops will sand the slides so they look all pretty. Insanity! Or they'll buff them and then not even clean the buffing compound off so it gets into the valves. They do this kind of thing to valves too. I've seen rotors sanded, filed, buffed, soaked in acid for three days, sigh. Best plan is to keep your horn clean and never take it to any idiot repairmen. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: NBC horn player under Toscanini 1948
I found a list of people who played with the NBC here: http://www.classicalrecordings.org/znbc/nbcplayers.html That's probably Arthur and Jack in the video, Harry played 3rd. While you're in the neighborhood, check out the Midsummer Night's Dream with Toscanini, Bruno Jaenecke on our favorite solo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2IT2lnpWYw ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Sansone
Who was looking for a Sansone? Contact me off list and I'll send you the contact info (it's not mine) - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Elkhart 8D
I'm just curious, if you trade your shiny Eastlake 8D for a beat up Elkhart one with leaky valves, you'll have a horn that's not playable. What will you play on? - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] two two valve horns
Just for the record, I have had my hands (and lips) on two different 19th century horns that had only two valves, the halftone valve being played with the 1st finger. Not assembled incorrectly, definitely intended that way. One of them had Stoelzel valves. Sorry, I don't remember the makers' names. I do remember they played very well. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] compensating vs. 5 valve Bb
To simplify, I would say the main advantage of the compensating horn is that you can use normal fingerings (probably favoring the Bb side) and theoretically play the full range of the horn. The 5 valve Bb is, for me, a little more of an entertainment. It requires more inventiveness to find fingerings that work well in the low range. Here's the deal, there aren't any notes available on the Bb horn below low B natural until you get down to pedal F. With the 5th valve F extension, you can come up with some fingering combinations that will work for that range. Valve 5 puts you in F, but now all the other valve slides are too short for F horn so, for instance, 5+2+3 won't really give you a low Ab. It'll be way sharp. You could try 5+1+3 instead, or if there's time, you could pull the F extension out farther to prepare a single note. On the fly, It's a little more awkward. The F extension can come in handy elsewhere in the range. For instance 1st valve G can be uncomfortably flat on a Bb horn, 1+3 too sharp. #5 ahhh, just right. Tuba players can hip you to some good fingerings. Their 4th valve serves the same purpose as the F extension for single Bb horn. Hit them up for fingerings on the Wagner tuba too. Don't forget all the wacky options you can use for the 4th (thumb) valve too. Need a flat half step? 3/4 step for stopping? 1/2 step for E horn? You can plug whatever length slide you might desire in there. I've tried some 5 valve Bbs that were just kind of heavy and clunky, no real advantage over a regular double horn but I have a very nice Kruspe 5 valve that handles like a 1930s BMW racing car. I read through a bunch of transcribed James Jamerson bass lines to get the low fingerings into my head. Whew! Fun though. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: dent bags
I can say, as a repairman, that the Bonna type hard dent bags have been very good for business too. Now, seriously. What's up with younger horn players? You have to carry it? W! I've got more mileage on my hard case than I care to think about. I've logged some serious mileage with it strapped to my bike too. Obviously I have the strength and good looks of ten normal men, but still, buck up fellas! My teacher, Harry Berv once told me about how he and his two older brothers, (they eventually wound up playing 1st,2nd,3rd horn in Toscannini's NBC Symphony), all had to share the same single F horn when they were in school. Since Harry was the youngest, they made him carry it home from school! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: dent bags
Actually, the snow part was for real, they grew up in Minnesota. You don't want to be outside there with only your socks on! - Steve Mumford Bill Gross wrote: On foot, in the snow, five miles, up hill both ways (sorry I couldn't = help myself.) -Original Message- From: horn-bounces+bgross=3dairmail@music.memphis.edu [mailto:horn-bounces+bgross=3dairmail@music.memphis.edu] On Behalf = Of Steven Mumford Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 7:04 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: dent bags I can say, as a repairman, that the Bonna type hard dent bags have been very good for business too. Now, seriously. What's up with younger horn players? You have to carry it? W! I've got more mileage on my hard case than I care to think about. I've logged some serious mileage with it strapped to my bike too. Obviously I have the strength and good looks of ten normal men, but still, buck up fellas! My teacher, Harry Berv once told me about how he and his two older brothers, (they eventually wound up playing 1st,2nd,3rd horn in = Toscannini's NBC Symphony), all had to share the same single F horn when they were in school. Since Harry was the youngest, they made him carry it home = from school! - Steve Mumford ___ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Flugelhorn vs Trumpet
You might look around and find out about Arkady Shilkloper. He plays jazz horn with amazing virtuosity and also plays flugelhorn. I haven't heard a recording of him on flugel, but run out and buy all of his horn recordings, you won't regret it. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] confessions
This could apply to horn players as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kKSvk1NMuMfeature=related - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Donato
Larry wrote: -Take a look at this video, and see if you don't get a light hearted reaction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaLRYjaNSywfeature=channel_page Well, it is kind of funny in a way, about on the level of a fart joke. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Ensemble call time practices
I think the early call time/warm up rehearsal thing is just a bad idea all around. I've never seen anything of value happen during one of those. If it ain't ready to go the day before the concert, it ain't going to get ready the day of. It's just a waste of good chops. Then you have wasted time between the run through and the concert. It feels so Junior High School. When I was playing full time, I wasn't all that excited to be there so I'd aim to arrive at the last possible moment before the downbeat. A little risky, but I was only late once and I was docked pay for it. When I got back into the exciting and fast paced world of free lancing, I found after awhile that the last minute thing wasn't such a great policy and it resulted in way too much death defying stupid driving while trying to eat and change clothes. Indigestion. So I got in the habit of aiming to arrive 30 minutes before the downbeat. Usually there wouldn't be that many people there yet. If traffic was bad, I had that 30 minute cushion to try to find plan B. Warming up isn't that much of an issue. If you're playing all the time, you're warmed up. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: embouchure
This is not about food, but you might enjoy looking into acupressure. There are 4 points that affect the lips, 1- just below the middle of your nose and about halfway between your nose and lip, 2- about the middle of your chin and 3 and 4 above your lip close to either end of your mouth. Search around a little pushing gently with one finger until you find the spot. It will register as a little sharp pain. Gently rub in a small circular motion on that spot for a little while then move to the next spot. I've fooled around with it some from time to time and it seems to help a little, especially if your chops are fatigued. It helps to stimulate blood flow. My physical therapist/trombonist friend agrees that there's something to it anatomically. It won't give you a double high C but it won't hurt nothin' either. Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Dvorak horn solo NHR digression
For the flute low B, you can always just roll up a piece of paper and stick it in the end with enough sticking out to give you low B. Works fine, as long as you don't also have to play low C. Same with low A on the Bassoon, which is written in a few pieces. I think there's some trick of holding the bell against your leg to get a low A on the bari sax as well. I heard somebody scoffing about those sissies who need an actual key to get that note. What we need are some cool tricks to extend the range of the horn below pedal F#. Somebody told me a long time ago that if you play a low note, then you flutter tongue at exactly the right frequency, it would cut out every other vibration and drop the pitch by an octave. Still working on that one. I'll let you know in a few years. - Steve Bear wrote: I am also curious as to WHEN most composers switched to writing for Modern Valved Horns. Dvorak wrote this Cello Concerto in 1895, and included at least one spot where the Second Flutist had to play the Low B-Natural, which began being manufactured in 1877! I would think it was a bit risky for Dvorak to expect that all orchestras in the Late 1890's to have a B-Foot Extension for their Second Flute Players (who also have to switch to Piccolo a few times), but his Horns are still using Crooks?!? Wasn't Wagner writing for Valved Horns in the 1880's? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Blue Juice
Here's an interesting article comparing different valve oils: http://www.musichem.com/articles/p_oil_e.htm ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Blue Juice for Valves?
Having attended High School, I feel qualified to answer Steve's question. You can use Blue juice on your horn, but don't mix it with any other oils. It reacts badly with petrolium based oils and it will gum up. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Blind taste test
Oh that is classic! An excellent result. Now next year you have to make the test double-blind. Blindfold the players too. - Steve Mumford Ken wrote: For those of you who have been waiting for me to tally the IHS 2008 Blind Taste Test Results - they're posted on my site!. Sincerely Ken Pope Just Put Your Lips Together And Blow http://www.poperepair.com US Dealer: Kuhn Horns Bonna Cases Pope Instrument Repair 80 Wenham Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-522-0532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: fracks, splits, critics
John wrote: Knowing what pitch one plays before doing so really helps increase one's accuracy. Arnold Jacobs said that his seven years of solgege at Curtis was his most valuable music course. Eldon's comments on focus are dead on. John Schreckengost Chicago, IL In connection with this, it bears repeating what Hans mentioned a couple of days ago - making sure the horn itself is tuned properly. I see a lot of people's horns, and I would say that very few of them have the tuning slides set properly. You may have the pitch beautifully conceptualized in your own mind, but if your horn has a different concept of where that pitch should be, your batting average will decrease. If your sense of pitch is decent, you may be lipping things all over the place in order to play the wonderful pitch you're imagining - disaster! Another interesting factor to think about is the amount of resistance in your horn/mouthpiece setup. I've noticed this phenomenon through adjusting the bore in many, many mouthpieces for players. To overly simplify, if you have more resistance than you need, you'll consistently attack every note on the high side and then instantly lip it down. It happens almost instantaneously, but If you listen very closely to someone playing slow tongued notes it becomes very obvious, once you tune in to it. Conversely, if there's not enough resistance, the player will attack every note low and lip it up. Naturally that kind of thing wastes a lot of energy and risks missed attacks. If the balance of resistance is right (different for each individual), you can just attack straight ahead and the notes become very stable and easy to hit. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] health care for music students
We had free access to the student health clinic included as part of our tuition at the University of Michigan. Unfortunately, after a couple of visits, it became clear that there were apparently only two possible diagnoses, VD or stress! Now that I'm self employed, I'm completely SOL, as are most of my musician friends. Half of the bankruptcies in the US are due to inability to pay medical bills. And a great many of those people HAD health insurance. Insane? You bet. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: out of tune Conn 8D
Hmmm, I'm with you part way there, but the way I've usually seen it is that the whole horn is flat, with the F circuit being even flatter. For a few years, Conn built the 8Ds with extra long main tuning slides. My 900,000 had the long one and I shortened it to the length they used before and after the long period. The outer tube on the left is now 1 11/16 long. Now the F circuit will still be flat compared to the Bb horn. Sometime in the 60s they made the ferrules on the back F tuning slide narrower. That brought it up a little higher. You could change those ferrules, or cut a little off the tubes. The front F slide stays all the way in of course, that one's just for dumping water. Like I say, I haven't seen the Bb horn register sharp on a 900,000, but if you manage to play the (very flat) F horn up to pitch, which certainly could be done with some difficulty, I guess the Bb horn would be pretty wildly high in comparison. Of course, there definitely is the possibility that something's been replaced with something else of a wrong length sometime over the last 45 years or so - leadpipe maybe? Time to get out the rusty hacksaw! If you get the pitch issues worked out, the 900,000s are great sounding horns! Let me know the measurements of the existing tuning slide tubes and I can give you some comparisons. A good quality photo or two, I could spot some replacement items. BTW, the 3rd Bb slide is often too long too. Phil Farkas had a story about how Georg Szell would always insist that hornists play the C# in the Oberon solo on the F horn because it was often flat on the Bb horn with that extra long 3rd slide. When it came time to play the solo, Farkas put his stand up higher so Szell couldn't see his fingering. When Szell complained about it he told him, my fingerings are none of your business! - Steve Mumford David wrote: A question for the repair people on the list. I have a horn student with a Conn 8D (serial #970*** - which seems to put it as being made in 1961 or 1962). I noticed he was playing a lot on the F side in places where the Bb side would have made more sense, so I asked him why he was doing that. He told me it didn't sound as good because it was out of tune on the Bb side. I checked it and he was right. The only way I was able to get it in tune with itself was to push all the F tuning slides (not the valve tuning slides) all the way in and then had to pull out the main tuning slide until it was almost falling out to get the horn to a 440 A. Basically, the Bb side is a bit too short. Is this something you come across often, and what can be done most economically to fix it. What's odd to me is if this horn is that old why hasn't this been noticed and taken care of before. Makes me wonder if something was replaced at some point and the replacement wasn't quite right. Thanks for any input, David Laraway ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: acoustics
Why not save the cost of the mute and just practice stopped? You'll kill about five birds with one stone that way. It's highly annoying at first, but after awhile you might actually find you can play stopped without a stopping mute. What a concept! You'll find it will very much help your open playing as well. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Hmmm, well you could easily turn the statement around and say that you could have a perfect embouchure, but if your air isn't working, you'll still sound bad. Except that, as Jonathan mentioned, if your air is bad, it's going to mess up your perfect embouchure. How to put good air in words? That's for braver people than me. A great player and excellent teacher could SHOW you in about 5 minutes and that would teach more than all the bandwidth on earth. Here's my simplistified take on embouchure and air. -Embouchure: If it looks really weird, it's probably not ideal. That includes the way your embouchure looks when you play really low notes. -Air: If it feels difficult or unnatural, you're probably doing things you don't need to do. Here's a cool lesson I got from a long time Jacobs student recently. You know the tube thingy with the ping pong ball in it? He said, don't suck the ball upward, just breathe in easily and naturally. Just get the ball to flutter a little. After awhile, the ball rises to the top with no effort. The air starts to move in and out with volume but with no effort. A. - Steve Mumford Larry wrote: Milton's comment, But you could have really good breath control and you could play out your nose, is amusing hyperbole. If there are others out there who believe proper embouchure muscle functioning (and to some extent, embouchure position) is an insignificant aspect of playing well, please post and explain why you think so. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Wow, it doesn't get much plainer and simpler than that! I like simple exercises, as opposed to thinking too hard so here's a dirt simple thing to try out. Pick a passage to play, put your lips outside and around the mouthpiece and just blow air through the horn, no buzzing. Blow the air steadily, no tongueing, and finger the notes. Do the passage a few times. When you go back to play it for real, it will go much better. - Steve Mumford Milton wrote: Hi Valerie in Tacoma, Sorry I have been meaning to reply for awhile, but just couldn't seem to ge= t around to it. Here is my two cents: Many years ago in a conversation with John Barrows he said this: =A0 You could have the most perfect embouchure in the world and bad breath = control and you couldn't play *^*. =A0 Notice I left out the last word =A0 But you could have really good breath control and you could play our yo= ur nose. Moral being:=A0 If I were you I would look to my breath instead of embouchu= re.=A0 I know it is always my problem when I come back after a short or a l= ong layoff. Good luck Milton Milton Kicklighter 4th Horn Buffalo Phil ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] mouthpiece rim size
In addition to whether you have thick or thin lips, you might notice how the mouthpiece rim diameter fits the witdth of your teeth. Does the rim hit right in the middle of your 2 front teeth? At the edge? Beyond the edge? That measurement is going to be different for each person and I'm imagining that some locations are going to be more comfortable than others. Maybe even more important than the shape of the lips? - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Franz Welser-M?st Comments
I'm trying to remember, I think it was actually Phil Farkas who told me he had met somebody who knew Szell back in his conservatory days in the old country. He asked the guy well, what kind of a horn player was Szell? and the the guy replied something like oh it was like a sick cow! Conn, and most of the other American manufacturers had a series of bore sizes that were for the most part based on fractions of an inch. The Conn bore sizes were referred to by numbers and on the early brass instruments, that number would be stamped on the valve casing. For instance the #1 bore was .438 inch which is perilously close to 7/16 of an inch (.4375) - 11.1125 for the metric folks. All the Conn french horns were made in the #2 bore at least as far back as the 1920s. It's usually stated as .468 (11.8872mm), but again it's very close to 15/32 inch (.4687) so that may be the original derivation. Kruspe and Schmidt used that same bore size so it was a logical choice since those were the horns they copied. - Steve Mumford Hans wrote: And he played the horn (Szell). But many conductors asre believed to be deaf !!! Question to the specialists: what was the bore of the very, very old Conns ? Anybody knows ? In millimeters, please. To compare: Viennese bore (inside diameter of the cylindrical tube) is 10,8 mms. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Franz Welser-M?st Comments
At least regarding the horn sound, George Szell thought the 8D came closest to producing a sound like the Vienna horns so that's why he wanted 8Ds in the Cleveland Orchestra. So there you go, you could say Vienna's kind of European. - Steve Mumford message: 14 date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:52:57 -0400 from: Luke Zyla subject: [Hornlist] Franz Welser-M?st Comments In a post concert interview, Franz Welser-M=F6st said that the Cleveland = Orchestra is the most European of all American orchestras. I find = this to be an interesting comment knowing that the horn section is a = solid 8-D section, perhaps the last major American orchestra horn = section to be so after NY Phil converted to the Schmid. I always = thought that Boston was much more European in their concept. I have = only heard Cleveland, Boston, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia in live = concert. I certainly wouldn't consider Cleveland more European than = the others. I wonder what makes an orchestra sound European rather = than American? From the interview, it would seem that volume is a big = factor. Of course, who knows how much was edited out of the interview. = Any comments? Luke Zyla 2nd horn, West Virginia Symphony Orchestra (about as American as you can = get) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Fuzzy and Sloppy Attacks
An easy and simple way to work on attacks. Get some cheap foam earplugs and put them in while you practice. You'll be able to hear more about your attacks, less about the other stuff. It will help. Another simple way - play whatever you're going to practice. Stop at the first note that you make a bad attack on and go back to the very beginning. This gives you great incentive and programs your brain to pay more attention. After awhile, you find that you can't be too careful, you have to be pretty loose and free for the attack to be strong and clear. As soon as you start trying, you'll scratch. Reminds me of an article I read about how to ride freight trains. In the part about if you need to get on a moving boxcar, they said First, throw in your backpack. This is to give you extra incentive. The part about if you need to get off of a moving boxcar said First, throw out your backpack. This is to give you extra incentive. Then there was some stuff about making giant steps in the air as you jump in the direction the train is traveling. I recall something about You will experience the rare thrill of running at thirty or forty miles an hour - for a short time. If something goes wrong, try to roll. Anyway, all that just to say that the incentive thing can be pretty powerful. Use it to emphasize what you want, rather than what you don't want. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Alan Civil
Lou Denaro contributes this information about the session: There's a For No One thread on Hornplayer.net right now. Nobody's mentioning my favorite anecdote about that session. Namely, after they finally got Civil to manage recording a take, Paul wanted him to do another so he could play it better, whereby George Martin pulled Paul aside and gently persuaded him to let it be. I wish I was the proverbial fly on the wall for that one! In any case, the various Beatle recording diaries document the original recording and speeding up on play back process. And I believe Jeff Bryant played this lick on his descant in the For No One sequence in Give My Regards to the Broadstreet. There's a continuity problem in that sequence, as Jeff can be seen showing up for the session late in the completed film (Paul asks where's Jeff) and he's scene entering the studio and saying hello, thereafter he is sitting with his horn and ready to play, but just afterwards you can catch a brief glimpse of him standing and removing his bike helmet before setting himself up (it's reflected on the glass pane seperating the control room from the musicians and is an obvious continuity error). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Vegetable Mouthpieces
It could be expected that there would be some who would not let themselves be limited to only potato or pasta mouthpieces. It is rumored that this is the true traditional Viennese sound. We tried making soup out of our instruments after a brass quintet concert once, but I'm sure the results were not nearly so tasty. Be sure not to miss the inspiring cabbage solo! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INI3M3Z2IMA - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: horn position
A couple more thoughts on on the leg playing. The chair height can have an effect on success. Years ago my orchestra bought new chairs. We had a players' committee to make recommendations to management and samples of different chairs were brought in for everybody to try. In the end, the committee chairman made an executive decision to pick the tallest chair because he was himself, tall. Thank you very much. I didn't like the new chairs all that much but I didn't think too much about it until much later when we played a concert in a different hall using the old chairs. Boy, I was playing great that week. The next week I thought to try playing going back and forth between the low and high chairs. Wow, I played much better in the low chair. Then it hit me, in the high chair, for my foot to reach to the ground (think A. Lincoln), my knee was much lower and therefore the horn was lower and the mouthpiece wanted to hit me in the throat instead of in the lip. Not so good. Well, the story took a wild turn. I used the shorter chair all that week in rehearsals and it was great. When I showed up for the Friday concert, it had been replaced by one of the tall (black) chairs. Hmmm, I thought. I went offstage and found a short (white) chair and made the switch. Concert was going great and I happened to look off into the wing. There was the ass. manager turning purple and making threatening gestures at me. Over his shoulder was the head stagehand, quite possibly armed and certainly dangerous, also giving me stink-eye. Before the applause was even over, the ass. manager was in my face screaming some barely comprehensible gibberish about me sitting in a white chair instead of a black one and about how the entire concert was ruined and I would certainly be fired. The stagehand was glowering malignantly and telling me that bad things could happen if I moved anything on HIS stage. Serious threat level. I still just had a s--- eating grin on my face because I'd found a way to play better. That just added fuel to their fire. Anyway, I bought some black fabric and recovered the white chair in time for the Saturday concert. Got there early and apologized to the stagehand (definitely have to keep the stagehands on your side!), showed him the chair and asked if I could have that one. He saw an excellent opportunity to stick it to management and agreed wholeheartedly. I got to have that chair for the rest of my days with that orchestra. Since then, I gave up playing on the leg. Too unpredictable. I do know people who carry a little block or lift for their right foot, in case they get to a situation with high-chairs. David, was that you that had the bell extender? I think the strap things are a good idea, but the ones on the market are too bulky and confining for me. They interfere with range of motion and they damp the sound of the horn. I made a delicate, comfortable one that allows total freedom of movement. Saves wear and tear on that poor little pinky. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Horn Position
Be careful generalizing about sound on the leg vs. off the leg. You'll probably find, if you do a good double blind listening session, that it can depend on the type of horn, the room, the player - all kinds of stuff. Do what sounds the best! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 65, Issue 23
Nah, it's just an older Farkas model and the bell has been replaced. It's nickel silver all the way up to the joint at the top of the horn. You could get a 179 bell without the name on it, might be one of those, or judging by the way the wrap kind of bulges up at the join with the first branch it could be something like maybe an 8D bell - they're wrapped in a bigger circle than the Holton bells. The first Farkas models came out in '58 so it's possible it could be that old. - Steve Mumford [Photo] Holton 105 - Full Double - 2500 US $ http://www.hornplayer.net/advert.asp?id=7739 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Blitz cloth for unlacquered brass?
Here's another choice that will work for a severely tarnished unlacquered horn with deep dark brown or green spots, the kind that would take hours to polish out with a normal polish. Penny Brite is made with a food grade citric acid. It's very slightly abrasive, but the mild acid will do most of the work. That all sounds bad, but it's not destructive stuff. I only use it on really tough jobs. It will produce a dull yellow finish that is then easy to polish all shiny with regular brass polish. I like Wright's brass polish personally. The Penny Brite will also leave a slightly reddish hue near any soldered areas. That will also polish out easily. Just to be on the safe side, I spray it down with a glass cleaner containing ammonia to neutralize the acid in the Penny Brite, then rinse with water. Google for it, they have a website that will tell you where to find it locally, or you can order it online. The parent company is EZBrite Brands. Oh, full disclosure, they pay me one million dollars a year to recommend their product. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: desert island Mozart
I fear there may be a small tse-tse fly in the ointment (oops the ointment went down with the ship) in this whole desert island discussion. Depending on how long you plan to be marooned, a few recordings or etude books could become more of a torment than a comfort after a long confinement. I'm thinking of many interviews I've heard with composers. When asked what's their favorite piece they've written, they reply the next one. I've often had the slightly bewildering experience of playing an old favorite recording that I haven't listened to for awhile. One that I know every single nuance of, having listened to it so many times. When I play the recording, I find that it's not at all the same as what I remember. I've improved it in my mind. Not only that, but I like my mental version better! I'm planning for the worst. That 3 hour tour could end up leading to many years trapped on a desert island. I'm only bringing the horn. I remember reading that an 8D in the case WILL float for a short time. Should be able to save that. Hopefully coconut oil will work as valve oil. If I can't remember all the music, I can just come up with alternate versions. Heck, after Jorge Luis Borges went blind, he entirely reconstructed Don Quixote and the Divine Comedy in his mind. There may be plenty of time to do something musically similar. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Looow F on vienna horn
I use similar reasoning when there are high notes written at a soft dynamic. They are often doubled an octave lower by the 2nd horn, so they are probably not that important. There are some pianissimo pedal E entrances out of nowhere in the Song of the Earth, very beautiful. - Steve Mumford Hans wrote: Hello Jonathan, I=B4ll try it again: This is the old problem: people forget completely that modern bass clef was not in use around 1900. It came into use after WW2. Players conductors seem not to know that fact. But anyway, this particular concert Contra B-flat is not an important note there. It is in p dynamics doubled an octave higher by the 2nd horn, as you wrote. There would be a chance to use an E-flat crook pull all three slides out accordingly, if the passage would be that important. It is not ! And playing it as factitious note is not the right way. 123 plus right hand plus eventual bending the missing interval is much better easier. Both techniques require a very good ear. Greetings Hans =20 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Leadpipe on older King double
My worry would be that stretching the receiver out to fit a regular mouthpiece would change the size of the venturi also. It would be easy to do and there's a tool made for that purpose, but the result of that may not be desireable. I've got a couple of the old King Schmidt models here. I'm pretty sure they have the same leadpipe taper as the later 2259 models from the 50s etc. One has the original size receiver which only fits the old King H-2 or F1,F2,F3 mouthpieces. It also fits a sheet metal mouthpiece from an old Kruspe - that may have been what they were copying. The venturi on that one is somewhere around .287 - fairly normal, a bit on the small side. It plays very nicely with the original F1 mouthpiece. On the other one, somebody has stretched the receiver to fit a modern mouthpiece. The venturi on that one is opened all the way to about .310 which is larger than most leadpipes designed on purpose. That's a pretty radical difference. I can't really assess the effect, because the valves leak badly on that one so it's not going to play anyway. King made modern size receivers later on, they probably still have leadpipes available to fit the old 2259 models but with the modern receiver. Not bent for the old Schmidt models though. I haven't tried one of those on an older King, so no opinion. You could always have the mouthpiece shank modified to fit the horn, that way you only risk the cost of the mouthpiece instead of the cost of another horn. The rims on those old style King mouthpieces are kind of uncomfortable for me, maybe you could have one of those made into a screw rim and use a rim that you like on the old cup. You could also check with Moosewood, I have a feeling he could make you a nice mouthpiece to fit. - Steve Mumford Kathy wrote: OK, so King used to use a mouthpiece receiver that only really fit with their mouthpieces. What's the best approach for dealing with this if you want to use a different mouthpiece? Can the receiver be modified, or does the leadpipe have to be replaced? __ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Rampone Cazzani
Rampone Cazzani exported lots of horns as stencils and they're very common in the US. These were horns that you could buy wholesale and put your own brand name on them. Blessing, Getzen and York sold them, as did many local stores and distributors. Sansone got parts from them. There were many other fanciful brand names like Astro. You rarely see one branded as an RC, the ones that are, usually seem to have the hairpin turn 1st and 3rd valve slides like yours. Maybe that suggests an earlier incarnation. The more commonly seen ones have the regular looking valve slides and are wrapped a little differently, with the main slide looking like one of those Eb crooks. That was a very traditional wrap used by Kruspe and Schmidt among others. Yours was apparently intended for export since it says made in Italy. The number 43 was probably a batch number to keep all the parts organized for a particular horn. You might find that same number on valve parts, tuning slides etc. They would probably start over when they got to the 99th horn. Your leadpipe is not the original one. You can get a parts horn for next to nothing on eBay but probably with the newer wrap. They have mechanical valve linkage. The leadpipes might not interchange because of the different wrap. Look for that distictive curved bell brace, they all have that regardless of the brand name on the bell. The restored value in the US would be something in the neighborhood of 100 dollars. - Steve Mumford message: 1 date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:39:26 -0400 from: Tim Kecherson subject: [Hornlist] Pictures of Rampone Cazzani http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8762/horn007no8.jpg http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7182/horn003mp6.jpg http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3751/horn005nv5.jpg Is the 43 by the valves the serial number? If so, what is the age of the = horn? -- Tim ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: krazy horn
You forced me to dig deep into the archives to unearth a similar beast! I have a couple like the one that was auctioned but, unfortunately they're not in good enough condition to play. I have one from the next generation that's not too bad though. The improved design was patented in 1922, patent # 1,438,363 if you'd like to look it up. It has tunable valve slides and a very short leadpipe that goes directly into the 1st valve after only about 8 inches. This means that the bore at the valve section is very small, the taper continues through the valve section and after. This later design has a bigger bell throat than the earlier one. Each tube of the valve section is slightly bigger when it returns than when it goes out. For instance the outbound tube of the 2nd valve is .358 and the inbound is .362. Why wouldn't an improvement of this sort continue to be made? Money. Manufacturers have learned to make acceptable instruments cheaply. There were plenty of brass insturments built in the 20th century that had features that really did make them play better, but they were more expensive to produce that way. The Couturier brochure mentions that most piston valve brass instruments required 2 different sizes of drills to drill all the holes in the valve section. The Couturier instruments (everything from cornets to tubas) required 32 different drill sizes for the same operation. So, why bother? Because it's there! Couturier wasn't just some random nut. He was an amazing musician who could play things on the cornet that nobody can play today. I'll extend a standing challenge - I have the music! He built a company that produced the full range of brass instruments and also saxophones. All the brass instruments were made on the conical bore principal, even the trombone. He had a dream and he made it happen. So, how does it play? Very nice! Ergonomically it's a little weird, the piston valves aren't so easy to manipulate. The sound is unique, very dark and woodsy, particularly rich when compared to normal horns. That richness of sound is what I particularly like about it. It's different from anything else. The pitch is very useable from low F# all the way up to high C, the E and D at the bottom of the staff are nice, maybe a touch higher than usual which is not so bad. D in the staff works just fine on open. It took a little while to find the center above the staff, she's a bit leaky, but once I found it, it rings out nicely. As far as the earlier model with the non-tunable valve slides, I tend to think that wouldn't really be a problem, other than water dumping! The cornets and trumpets play well in tune in either Bb or A, using the same fixed valve loops for both keys. How can that be? Let's just say that the acousticians can't explain everything. Hmmm, now that I'm warming up to this thing I'm liking it better and better. High range is really coming in, a little long call, Konzertstueck etc. It opens up good for the louder stuff.Mendelssohn Nocturne, very easy, relaxed, less taxing than on a double horn! I imagine this would be a really nice horn if it wasn't quite so old, beat up and leaky! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 63, Issue 9
It's a cool design. The valve loops grow continuously. That's why they're not tunable, there's no cylindrical section for a tuning slide. The bore at each valve is bigger than the one before it. We often say the french horn is a conical instrument, but it really isn't when made in the usual way. The Couturier horn really is conical the whole way, even through the valve section, except a short length in the main tuning slide. Unfortunately, the one in the ad has had the leadpipe replaced with something that doesn't fit. It's way too long, goes way too low, then bends back on itself to finally join up with the tuning slide. That ain't right. There's a sleeve and a patch, suggesting there might be parts of a couple of leadpipes spliced together. That kind of thing was common back in the 30s and 40s. Parts were not easily available then as they are now, so they tended to cobble up anything that looked remotely close. Air goes all the way through, but it plays a half step flat? - perfect! The Couturier leadpipe has a much slower taper than anything else since he had to make the taper last a lot longer distance, so no modern or normal leadpipe works with it. The lacquer is also not original since lacquer wasn't an option when this horn was new. - Steve Mumford Valerie wrote: Take a look at this krazy horn. Anyone ever see anything like this befo= re? Anyone ever PLAY on one of these? Where to the valve slides end up= ? Are the valves tunable? = ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Denver for shizzle
I fully represent the hopelessly old and un-hip, but I have to say I found it funny. Y'all have been listening to too much Strauss and obviously haven't kept up with Snoop Dogg's latest offerings. I think if you ask your students they'll get it. Granted there's a little strong language in there. Watch out! The home schooled crowd could be offended. - Steve ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Pan American natural horn
Pan Americans weren't actually bad horns. All the ones you see today are completely worn out, so it's hard to judge. It was the second line for Conn. When they would discontinue a Conn model, they would take that tooling and make the Pan Americans with it. The famous Schmidt model Conn 6D became a Pan American after it got replaced by the all-rotor 6D. They were made out of the same stuff as the Conns. The Pan American bell was heavier gauge though. If you have a 6D with the typical crushed-with-holes-in-it lightweight bell, you can replace it straight across with a P-A one and make it bullet proof. The Pan American single F is very similar to the old style Conn 14D. (The new style 14D is the same as a King now). The main tuning slide is wrapped a little lower though and that makes it actually very convenient for making a valvectomy natural horn. You just rip the valves out and if you happen to have the Eb crook that came with it you already have 2 keys. Make a couple of extensions using tubing from the valve section and you have F, E, Eb, D using the 2 crooks + extensions. You can play most of the cool solo literature, and with the lower wrapped tuning slide of the PanAm, the D crook won't hit you in the chin. Anybody could do the torch work in their garage or dorm room (hey they said cooking was against the rules, they didn't say anything about torching old Pan Americans). It's not remotely Mozartilly authentic, but it's lots of fun to play around with, you can learn a little something about playing hand horn, and it's cheap. The valves will be totally shot anyway, so it's the best highest use for a horn like that. ...and you get to play with fire! - Steve ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Olds horn
Here's a post from Lou Denaro about the Olds horns: I believe the clue to the identity of the horn being described here is the articulated change valve mechanism. I recently bought an Olds horn with in line valves and it has such a mechanism. This is definitely not the Geyer wrapped Olds of the 50s and 60s that can be seen on the Hornarama page elsewhere on the web. In addition to the garland on the bell that says Olds Super the horn also has four rather outsize in-line rotors covered by very substantial brass valve caps with O L D S stamped ac cross them. Another interesting thing is the main tuning slide set up. As opposed to most standard set ups where the lead-pipe goes down and eventually bends back up 180 degrees to join with a vertically oriented main tuning slide, the main tuning slide on this horn begins at point that is 17 inches from the beginning of the mouth-pipe (where the bend reaches approximately 90 degrees), where it is situated horizontally, thereafter curving around 180 degrees to join the bottom (change valve) rotor. The rest of the wrap, the valves, and the bracing are also unconventional. Some parts seem like they could have been sourced from Carl Geyer, the bracing is from the Buick Roadmaster assembly line, while others, namely the valves with brass caps that could double as shot glasses, and the valves themselves, could have been sourced from Fisher Price or some like operation from that era when children's toys were actually made from brass like materials. It's a very interesting horn and it plays quite decently with the help of a strategically placed acousticoil. I gather this is an Olds Super model from the Los Angeles era, prior to the move to Fullerton, and may therefore be a pre WW2 product (Olds didn't produce much during the War and I believe a boatload of saxes that they did produce for military band use went to the bottom with some ship in the Mediterranean). I believe Bernie Marston refers to the fact that Olds tried to make French Horns before the war in an online interview somewhere on the net. Now someone ask me about my (as new) custom made, approximately 50 year old Alexander Schmidt copy (probably Luigi Ricci's at some point). Or my original, killer CF Schmidt! Now we're talking horns! They don't make them like these anymore Lou ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: stopped horn problem
That octave at the beginning of the Hall of the Mountain King offers a couple of challenges, especially if you're the one playing 2nd horn. It's a little bit down in the woofy range for stopping, not entirely easy if you're not very experienced with hand stopping. So, not only that, but you've got to make it sound in tune with the 1st horn, who also may not be very experienced at hand stopping. And you have to come in out of the blue. Whew! Main thing I'd say is to blow the same way as if you're playing open so you don't lose the sound. Figure out the hand position. Play your etudes 100% stopped for awhile. You'll get it sooner or later, or later. You'll have to put in some (okay, a lot of) practice to have any hope of being confident about that entrance. This will be a great incentive to learn how to hand stop, because there will be no hiding on this one. Don't buy a brass mute. My stopping mute has an inch of dust on it. Very decorative. Learn to do it now. If not now, when? Take it as a challenge and plan to succeed! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 62, Issue 20
Do a Google search for Olds Central and the first thing you see should be a site that has a lot of stuff about Olds instruments. Lots of great information there. Look for the 1957 catalog, it has the french horns in it, some of the others do too. If yours is an Ambassador, those were first made in about 1952 and continued until about 1980. Lots of cool websites out there for the history of various brands. Check out the Conn Loyalist, Contempora Corner (Reynolds), HNWhite.com. Any others? Couldn't find one for Anborg but certainly there SHOULD be one! - Steve Mumford Peter wrote: Can anyone tell me about an Olds double french horn I bought? It has four inline valves and is brass. I tried to look up the history of it and couldn't find anything on the double model. Peter Henderson ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: corks
I understand that horn players prefer to use creative thinking, but each of the major manufacturers of horns will supply the proper size bumpers to fit the horns they make. Your local repair shop really should stock a supply for all the major brands, instead of putting in random sized ones, which is what most shops seem to do. The cost is not high, so shame them into it if you have to. Then you can go there every 5 years or so and buy a new set for your horn for a little change out of your piggy bank. They will fit just right, maybe they'll need just a bit of trimming and you'll be set for another 5 years. I know, too easy. Sorry. I've never seen any of the factory ones have any trouble with swelling. The Yamaha ones get kind of hard after a few years, no big deal, put in some new ones. The Yam. ones will also fit most European horns. Holtons are kind of cranky no matter what you use because they insist on using those %^#*$ cheap-ass cork holders. Very important to save that 35 cents for the bottom line! Anyway, you might have to bend them a little to keep the bumpers from falling out. Nice P.O.S. design guys! Of course the older Holtons had the holes for the cork plates drilled completely in the wrong spot so there's no way to line the valves up right anyway. There are 2 styles for Conns, old and new. The ones for the Elkhart and Texas Conns fit in nicely but almost always need some trimming because the cork plates are rarely centered just right. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: finding leadpipe dimensions
You can try to find the leadpipe dimensions using dent balls, but after a leadpipe is bent, it rarely has a round cross section anymore. Your dent ball may be stopped by the X axis, but the Y axis will still not be touching. OK, you can jam it in farther, but at what point do you start to stretch the metal. What point of the dent ball itself is touching? It's kind of the horse shoe and hand grenade method. I've never played a copy mouthpipe that played anything like an original anyway. Better to find some general guidelines, crunch some math, make some pipes, modify them, throw some away, invoke Pythagoras and all the gods of music, wine and merrymaking, go on a vision quest. After 30 years or so, you might come up with something. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: leadpipe dimensions
Yep, exactly what I was talking about, but still there's more than a little bit of approximatura involved in that process. Finding the exact original unbent dimensions that way? Not gonna happen. You're right, just for clarity, those objects universally known as dent balls in the trade are actually kind of barrel shaped, and repairing dents and restoring the shape of tapered tubes puts the T in tedious! I have dent balls in one thousandth of an inch increments for when I want to get really anal about it. Easier just to get a new shiny leadpipe and have a Kopprasch party with your friends! - Steve Mumford Steve Haflich wrote: From: Steven Mumford [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can try to find the leadpipe dimensions using dent balls, but after a leadpipe is bent, it rarely has a round cross section anymore. Not quite true. After a pipe is bent it will DEFINITELY not have a circular cross section any more. Deviations can be found with tedious use of calipers, and circularity corrected with careful use of a small hammer and barrel slugs. The latter are better than balls for this work (at least in tapered pipes) because they have a short constant-radius center with tapered edges. Cold brass can be reshaped with astonishingly gentle repeated taps from a very small hammer. Restablishing the circularity of a bent pipe is one of the hundreds of mind-numbingly tedious tasks that make the difference between an adequate instrument and a great one. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Schmidt history
Oops, I have to correct my story, I heard from a hornist who had known Geyer personally and said he used to talk about having worked at Schmidt, starting out by sweeping the floors. Thanks for the great stories Dave! On Kruspes, it seems to be commonly said that their intonation needs to be corrected. I can only speak for my own experience, but I have a very nice all original, never damaged one and the intonation is very good throughout the range, in fact better than other good horns I've played, very easy to play in tune. Now, all kinds of things can happen over 80 or 100 years, and maybe there were some good and bad ones when they were new. I have run across some that I thought were built on the flat side and trying to play those up to pitch is an unrewarding challenge. At any rate, I like the original leadpipe particularly because it does have that gravy in the sound. I've tried some others that still had some gravy, but lumpy intonation and some others that just plain killed the sound. Still haven't found anything that beats the original. I'm just an old fashioned kinda guy I guess. As Tom Waits said: it's new! it's improved! it's old fashioned!. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
I don't know specifically in the case of Kruspe or Schmidt, but Geyer did not use a mandrel to make leadpipes. He had a flat pattern he traced onto a sheet of brass which he then cut out and rolled into a tapered tube. After filing the edges a bit to clean them up the seam was brazed and, voila, a leadpipe. As you can imagine, there's a certain amount of randomness involved in such a process. The original pattern was basically a straight taper but the filing and brazing could result in some slight in and out, here and there, from time to time, more or less. I have scratched my head over many Kruspe and Schmidt pipes, marveling at some apparently random deviations. Could be from the same method, I'd say more likely with Schmidt, maybe with Kruspe too. Conn, of course, used a steel mandrel and the leadpipes were drawn down to the mandrel, yielding hopefully the same results each time. I did hear a story from someone who was called in to consult. Conn had gotten some complaints that the horns weren't playing as well. He asked for the drawings and the mandrels, and when he compared them, he found the mandrels had worn smaller from use over time. Pobody's nerfect! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C.F. Schmidt History
Geyer didn't train with Schmidt, although he did build Schmidt model horns. He trained in Markneukirchen, which was and still is a mecca for instrument building of all kinds. There was a non-ferrous mill in Elkhart in the old days and Conn was able to get some custom alloys. I don't know specifically about the 8Ds, but you can easily notice that the alloy they used on the Elkhart horns was much different than what Conn uses today. They had a wonderful gold brass that they used for cornet and trumpet bells and on the old 6D (Schmidt) model. That alloy was chosen by listening to bells made from many different alloys and that particular gold brass won out. Remember the old 88H trombones with the red brass bells? Same deal. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Pro horn cleaning question
I'm sure I must be missing something here, but what happened to just cleaning your horn fairly regularly with plenty of soap and a snake? I figure if I've gone as far wrong as to need a chemical cleaning, I've [EMAIL PROTECTED] up kinda bad. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 61, Issue 32
Although it has been said, it isn't at all true. Many of the Conn Schmidt model horns said made in Germany on the valve lever support. That was true only of the rotary valve set which was made by Martin Peter in Germany, not the same valves used by Schmidt. The rest of the horn, including the piston valve, bell, crooks etc., etc. was good ole Elkhart construction. The Conn Schmidt model was known as the 6D. It was retired in '34 (?) and they started making the 6D we're more familiar with today, having the rotary thumb valve. By then, the rotary valves were made by Conn themselves. Buescher did a similar thing. They had a horn in the 20s that looked exactly like an Alexander 103. The valves were made in Germany, the rest of the parts were made in Elkhart. They were not the same valves used by Alex. York had a Schmidt model horn with German rotary valves, everything else made by York. There were later iterations that were completely made in Italy and branded York. King made everything in-house! Hard core all they way! - Steve Mumford Richard in Seattle wrote: In the case of Conn, it's been said that they imported all the parts from C.F. Schmidt and assembled them in the US to avoid import duties on completed instruments, simply adding their name. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Mouthpiece Insertion Depth - Different on my 2
You'll have the most fun with your Alexander if your mouthpiece has the same taper on its shank that the Alexander mouthpieces have. It's different from the American morse taper shanks. It'll still play reasonably mediochre with the morse taper mouthpiece, but the sound will open up and the horn will be better in tune with itself if you have the right taper. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: tuning a double horn
You'll notice there's not much pull on the main tuning slide on that Schmidt model King. On the earlier ones, it didn't pull at all, the crook was soldered directly to the knuckle leading into the piston valve. The one I'm working on now is from the early 20s and that main slide is not pullable. I've seen other early ones made that same way. They must have gotten some complaints and changed it, but it strikes me that the later ones have such a short pull that it's really only useful for dumping water. All the Kings made up until the (70s?) or so had their own unique receiver taper. I think that's probably why they never really caught on with the professionals after the 20s. They just don't play very well with a standard morse taper mouthpiece. If you have one of those old H-2 mouthpieces, it has that King taper. Originally, your 1928 King would have come with 3 mouthpieces, F-1, F-2, and F-3. They had the same rim, but differing cup depths. If you have the original case, it will have 3 holes for the mouthpieces. The sound really opens up with one of those mouthpieces, but the rim is a little difficult for me, small diameter and a sharp edge. It also would have come with an alternate piston to reverse the action to Bb/F, and an Eb crook. The handguards are made from solid sterling silver. A cool outfit! - Steve Mumford Jack wrote: Steve M. wrote: Interestingly enough, the earliest 103s didn't have a MAIN tuning slide either. The leadpipe fed directly into the change valve, then you had the little Bb slide on the front and the F slide on the back. Totally independent tuning! The earliest Pelletier model Kings with the piston thumb valve did the same thing. - Wow, that must have been a really early Pelletier Schmidt. I have one made circa 1928 that has a main tuning slide + independent Bb and F slides. I will just mention another oddity to that horn. It came stock with an Alexander taper on the mouthpipe. In fact it plays better with an Alexander brand mouthpiece than it does with anything else-it sort of comes more alive. I wonder if all of the pre WWII HN White horns were that way or just the Pelletier Schmidt? The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: tuning a double horn
Interestingly enough, the earliest 103s didn't have a MAIN tuning slide either. The leadpipe fed directly into the change valve, then you had the little Bb slide on the front and the F slide on the back. Totally independent tuning! The earliest Pelletier model Kings with the piston thumb valve did the same thing. I'm imagining that the biggest drawback was not having a slide to pull for emptying water. Does anybody know of any other horns that were made that way? - Steve Mumford Jack wrote: The Alexander 103 model does not have this slide (water slide) at all. The Alexander 103 has the shared main tuning slide at the end of the lead pipe. It has an independent F horn slide just to the right of that. Turning the horn over, it has an independent Bb slide just off of the thumb valve and of course it has the six slides for the other three valves. Professor Pizka has already stated some good general starting points for these slides. I would also say that the newer Alexander 103 horns are more consistent than some vintage versions with regards to tuning and evenness of scale. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 61, Issue 7
Check to see if the main tuning slide of the 278 isn't longer than that on the 179. I mean the length of the straight tubes. Check also if the length of the little Bb tuning slides is different between the two. Not all Holtons were created equal! Just a note on Holtons, that slide on the front, coming out of the change valve, is just for dumping water. It's known in the parts list as the water slide. If you keep that one pulled, in addition to the F slide on the back, your F horn will likely be flat to the Bb horn. I lose track of all the Yamaha models, but one of the 667 types was constructed to play pretty high. I've added quite a bit of length to the tuning slides on some of those for people who weren't able to get down to A=443 on them. - Steve Mumford Valerie wrote: Question for you more experienced horn players. When you play a horn that = is new to you, do you have intonation problems? I'm trying to figure thing= s out. I've been playing a Holton 179 (large bell silver) for two years. = I work w/ a tuner several times a week. When I work w/ the tuner on my H17= 9, I'm almost always right on or very close to being there. It only takes = very tiny adjustments to bring things to pitch and the tone generally remai= ns centered except for just a couple notes. But when I work with other hor= ns, it's not that way. The other two horns I've worked w/ the most are an = Holton 278 and a Yamaha 667D (both medium bell throat yellow brass). I fin= d intonation all over the map on these two other horns that requires such l= arge adjustments the tone on quite a few notes is really poor offish so= unding. =20 =20 I'd love some discussion on this topic. I realize there may not be any abs= olutes here, but please if you can shed some light on this, I'd be very gra= teful. =20 Am I more accurate on my H179 simply because I've been playing it longer? = Or is it because it's inherently a horn w/ better intonation? Is intonatio= n easier on the H179 because it's a large bell throat silver or does that m= atter? =20 =20 Confused in Tacoma =20 =20 =20 =20 Valerie = ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Insuring a horn during shipping
There is some sort of tracking outside the US for packages sent through the US Postal Service. I recently sent a horn to France that took longer than expected to get there. The anxious recipient inquired, and when I asked at the post office, they were able to tell me the horn was at his local post office in France, and they had tried to deliver it 3 times. I sent it regular Priority International. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: lacquer
Maybe the main deciding factor, expect to spend somewhere from 500.00 to above 1,000.00 to have the horn polished and lacquered. Lacquer is just clear paint. Paint it on an unpolished horn, and it will have some slight effect on the way the horn plays, probably not enough to run screaming away. The danger zone is the belt sanding and heavy buffing required to make existing scratches and pits disappear so your horn will look all pretty after the clear paint goes on. If you have a lot of pitting and scratching, your horn won't be a good candidate for lacquering. It probably won't survive the process. Most shops that do a lot of that kind of work are reluctant to leave in the flaws, because they become very noticeable after the polishing, and they get complaints. Much safer to buff it to death! I've had to replace bells on several horns that were relacquered (not by me!). After the horn was all pretty and jewelry perfect looking, the bells on those horns were so thin, they collapsed at the first bump, and the metal split along the crease lines. A nice source for shiny scrap metal. Lacquer isn't a great idea if you have really acidic hands. With lacquer, you end up with deep pits and holes. Without lacquer, your hand turns green, but the horn survives longer. If you get a hand guard, make sure it has a vapor barrier to keep that acidic sweat away from the metal. If you don't have the acid, your lacquer can survive a good long time. Plating the inside of the bell involves the same buffing problems, probably not a great idea on a thin or pitted bell. Unless the pits are sanded and buffed right out, they can cause plating adhesion problems. Some places that specialize in lacquer work are Pettifor's in Elkhart, IN, Taylor Music in Aberdeen, SD, Badger State Repair in Elkhorn, WI, Borodi Music in Cleveland, OH. Many local shops will take in your horn to relacquer it and they'll send it to one of those places. If it was me, I'd just sell the horn you have and buy a nice new factory lacquered one. If you have an irreplaceable, antique, historic, etc., horn, I will come and kick you in the knee if you have it buffed and lacquered! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: American Horn Ensemble
Good grief! About 10 people in a row have quoted the entire digest in their reply to this thread. Stop it! - Steve PS - Please! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Anyone heard this?
It's a great album! Some real rippin' horn licks. Snap it up if you have a chance to get it. Tom wrote: surfing, I found this LP. Any one ever heard it? Julius Watkins - French Horns For My Lady Label: Philips Catalog#: PHS 600-001 Format: Vinyl, LP Country: US Released: 1962 Genre: Jazz Style: Smooth Jazz, Easy Listening Credits: Arranged By, Conductor - Billy Byers Bass - George Duvivier French Horn - Bob Northern , Gunther Schuller , Jimmy Buffington , John Barrows , Julius Watkins Percussion [Congas] - Ray Barretto Piano, Vibraphone - Eddie Costa Producer - Quincy Jones Trumpet - Roger Mozian Tuba - Jay McAllister Notes: Recorded in New York City in 1962. Printed inner sleeve. tom in iowa ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: A.J. Pelletier
An H.N. White flyer from about 1929 or 30 shows Alphonse J. Pelletier among a host of distinguished colleages endorsing the King french horn: By far the finest horn it has ever been my privelege to play. Distinctive features are the ease of playing, the wonderful tone and the perfect scale. He is listed at that time as Former Detroit Symphony. A December, 1930 ad lists him as Detroit Symphony. The King model with the piston thumb valve is sometimes referred to as the Pelletier model. The Whiteway News of 1949 shows Mr. A.J. Pelletier, noted French horn artist, formerly with the Cleveland and the Detroit Symphony Orchestras. He's seated, holding a 5 valve single Bb. He looks about the same as he did 20 years earlier! They have the Detroit Symphony programs, going way back, in the U of MI library. If you have a serious desire, I could probably look up some dates for A.J.'s time in the DSO. - Steve Mumford Jack wrote: So just out of sheer curiosity, does anyone have any info on who A.J. Pelletier was? The only thing I can track down is he played in the first part of the 20th C with Detroit and Cleveland. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: life span of a horn
Of course, you have to look on the INSIDE of a violin to see all the horrible damage, patched cracks etc., etc. Horn patches are on the outside so they look worse. I recently had the opportunity to buy about 200 violins from an old shop for 20 bucks apiece. I couldn't find any in the pile that looked like they would be worth that much! - Steve Mumford Dave wrote: Really, I was making a generalized statement based on my observations of lots of horns that have been played a lot over lots of years. Mostly these horns have been yellow brass, rather than nickel silver. Certainly, any horn can be well maintained and its useful service life extended well beyond 60 years.?But I stand by my original sentiment, namely that a metal horn will deteriorate far faster than a wooden violin even with the best of care.? --? DW ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: 2nd horn on Beethoven 7th
The real key to evening out the sound between closed and open notes is the mouthpiece. Back in Beethoven's time, horn mouthpieces were made of sheet metal and were a continuous funnel all the way to the small end. A modern mouthpiece with a choke and backbore works fine on the open notes, not so well on the closed ones. Rick Seraphinoff makes copies of the old sheet metal mouthpieces. - Steve Mumford Lawrence wrote: Hi John, Thanks for your reply. It isn't the slurring that's the problem, it's getting the f# something like in tune and sounding decent. Full stopping it seems to make the sound a little too stopped (or from a distance does this not sound so bad?) but half stopping doesn't really take it down far enough. Maybe a combination of stopping and lipping down? Thanks for the tip on the e - I'll take a look at that one. Once again I'm looking for tips to make it more effective, not to make it possible. She can actually play it but is looking for the best way if there is such a thing. What do the pro hand horn players do on that particular passage? Thanks again. Lawrence lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] for Walt
Walt Lewis, sorry about that, my finger misfired and I lost your message and email address. Could you write me back? - Steve ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: mouthpiece w/ Schmid horn
One thing to check is whether it takes the European mouthpiece shank taper. It will play a lot better if the shank fits in the right distance. Bob's post reminds me of a fun little test to check if the mouthpiece resistance is balanced for you. Play a middle C softly then crescendo to forte. Don't try to keep the pitch steady, just let it do whatever it wants to do as you crescendo. If the pitch wants to go down, you might try a mouthpiece with a little more resistance. If the pitch wants to go up, try something less resistant. It's surprisingly accurate! - Steve Mumford Bob wrote: message: 4 date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 11:56:39 -0500 from: Robert Osmun [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: RE: [Hornlist] Mouthpiece with Schmid horn The most important characteristic to be aware of in matching a mouthpiece to a specific horn is the relationship of the bore size of the mouthpiece to the venturi (narrowest point) of the mouthpipe. For best results they should balance each other. Large bell throat instruments, such as 8D's, Kruspes, etc. usually have small venturis, so they work well with wider mouthpiece throats in the 4-12 range. Smaller bell horns, like Alexanders, Yamaha 667's, etc. have larger venturis, so a bore in the 10-18 range is better. Schmid horns have venturis on the small-to-medium end of the scale so most mouthpieces with moderate bores (8-14) work well with them. Of course, Schmid mouthpieces are provided with bore sizes from 25-18, but almost no American players use bores that small. Most cup shapes work well on Schmids and other similar horns, cups with very large volume (like our New York cups), less so. I'm sure many listers will have other, more specific, information for you, but here's a place to start. Bob Osmun www.osmun.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Fant Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:30 PM To: The Horn List Subject: [Hornlist] Mouthpiece with Schmid horn I was wondering what kind of mouthpiece everyone prefers with a E. Schmid horn? Thank you. Robert ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: leadpipes
Eva, you kind of glossed right over the more significant part of making that 179 play better. I tend to forget that people are trying out these replacement leadpipes on old worn out horns with leaky valves and tuning slides. Sure the FB-210 is a fine pipe, but I guarantee, the valve rebuild is what made the horn play. Putting a fine new leadpipe on a worn, leaky horn is just buzzing into the wind. Here's an experiment for everyone. Buy a new custom horn. Get something nice, something between maybe 8 to 12,000 dollars. Take an electric drill and drill 4 big holes in it. Now you have the effect of having 4 leaky valves. Buy several good custom leadpipes and try them on the horn. Now put some tape over the holes and try the original pipe. Which is better? Years ago I sold a horn to a fellow. I never really liked the horn very much, but he loved it, and for years he raved about how it was the best horn he owned. Of course it was. It was the only one he owned that didn't have leaky valves! - Steve Mumford Eva wrote: Many years ago, when I was a 'wee horn-playing lass', I had a Holton 179, which was a total dog. However, it was dramatically improved and made into a really fine horn by putting a Lawson FB-210 (if memory serves--it was many years ago) lead pipe on it. Of course it had a valve rebuild too. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Alex mouthpieces
American mouthpiece shanks have a different taper than the Alexander ones. An American mouthpiece will tend to make an Alex feel tight and strangely out of tune. It won't go into the receiver far enough. I had the same experience when I finally tried an Alex mouthpiece on a 103. Ahhh! Since then I've found that other mouthpieces with the correct shank give the ahh factor too. The same thing happens with a lot of other European made horns. Alexander tubas have the reputation in America of being out of tune, but the same thing holds true, you have to get the right mouthpiece shank taper for the pitch to work. Orlando wrote: I remember struggling with an Alex and then calling my more experienced uncle for help. He immediately suggested that I try an Alex mouthpiece, and when I did, it was as if I was playing an entirely different horn...everything worked. 1. Re: Lead pipes for Conn 8D (Steven Mumford) 2. Re: C series mouthpieces (Steven Mumford) 3. Re: Re: Lead pipes for Conn 8D (Tim Van Gijsegem) 4. Re: Re: C series mouthpieces (Christopher Fitzhugh) 5. Re: Horn Digest, Vol 59, Issue 32 ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 6. Rims, Chops, Airstreams (was C series mouthpieces) ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 7. Leadpipes for horns (Eldon Matlick) 8. Re: Leadpipes for horns (G) 9. Adam Unsworth's New Band Live in concert (matthew scheffelman) 10. Giardinelli Mouthpieces ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 11. repairs in Philadelphia (Mark Syslo) 12. RE: Giardinelli Mouthpieces (Pandolfi, Orlando) 13. Minneapolis Symphony horns in 1940 ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Lead pipes for Conn 8D
Anyone who is getting a new leadpipe for their 8D, please send the old original one to me!!! I won't call any names, but I've had quite a few of the custom pipes come through here and I haven't seen any yet that were better than a good original one. Different, yes. Better, no. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: C series mouthpieces
One more thing to pay attention to when choosing an inner rim diameter is tooth structure. Maybe more important than the size or shape of the lip. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Elliot Carter Horn Concerto
well ok, the best I can do is a third hand report. The person who heard the concert was gratified that the concerto explored all the ranges of the horn. She was able to listen somewhat appreciatively, having spent weeks preparing another piece by Carter last summer. She wasn't raving about the beauty of the music however. That's all I heard. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Re:Ethical dilemma - how to pack a horn for delivery
I've taken it to the extreme and just made several VERY long driving trips to pick up horns. I didn't want to take the chance that some irreplaceable vintage parts might get damaged. The upside is, I got to sightsee some very nice parts of the country. I'm getting perilously close to my 1,000th eBay sale (989 tonight) and I've never had any trouble with any of the shipping companies. I'm knocking on wood. I try to pack things so they can be dropped a couple of stories without getting hurt because I figure they WILL do that. I've shipped everthing from metal alto clarinets to sousaphones. I'm liking the post office lately because I can print out the shipping label online and then just drop it off at the back door of the post office, no questions asked and no waiting, they know me there. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: mouthpiece drilling
That's certainly more than a little bit possible, but it can also have a positive effect. I don't know any trumpet players who haven't had theirs drilled out a bit, and many horn players too. It can be worth the experiement if you don't like the mouthpiece anyway. Better, of course to have it made right in the first place. The sequence of boring out often goes like this: could you drill it out one size bigger? okay maybe one more size OOOH! too far! I was at Giardinelli's once back in the old days when they were downtown and I tried out one of the mouthpieces. They had them all laid out in the display case, one of each size, each in its own special spot. Anyway, the one I tried seemed a little on the tight side so I asked the salesman if they had the same thing with a little bigger hole. Oh no problem, we'll drill it out. He brought it back and when I tried it, it was like falling into a bottomless pit. I gave it back to him and he put it right back in the original spot! I apologize to whoever bought that mouthpiece! NHR, check out Osmun's for some trumpet mouthpieces that are made on purpose with the popular oversize throats. Hans wrote: Hello Steve, if the mouthpiece is drilled to a wider bore, it is ruined in most cases. It might be better to return the mouthpiece get another one with the new bore - direct from the manufacturer. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: another Kruspe question
Kruspe made the single F horns in many different configurations and different bell sizes. Some of them had garlands, but I'm pretty sure if you took the garland off, you'd have no bead at the edge. The garlands weren't soldered in place, just crimped around and with the reinforcing wire trapped inside the bead. You won't find any serial numbers unless somebody added their own personal number after the fact. If it saysmade in Germany of course, that means it was made for export to the US. If it says hoflieferant on the bell, that's an earlier one, perhaps before 1920. The Kruspe single Fs were regarded as some of the best in their time and nobody has made a better F horn since. It's almost certain that a prewar one has leaky valves by now so you won't get the whole picture of how good it really is. Don't replace the leadpipe unless it's REALLY hopeless. If it is, send it to me! Gene Wade from the Detroit Symphony messed around with a Kruspe single F I had while I worked on his horn one time. After playing every high excerpt in the world, perfectly and beautifully, he stopped, looked at it quizzically and said oh, single F!. He'd been mentally thinking single Bb and how nice that would be for the high range. He played all the right F fingerings though. Anyway, that's a nice horn! By the way, I just got a Kruspe bell with the DRGM number 182267. Does anybody know what model that was offhand? It's a nice large throated one with the narrow garland. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] survey of horns played
Just out of curiosity, my friend went back and repeated his survey of the top 55 orchestra horn sections listed on hornplayer.net. He found 61 players listed as playing 8Ds, 27 Hill, 23 Rauch, 16 Schmid triple, 15 Berg, 11 for Lewis, Paxman dbl, Paxman triple, Schmid Dbl and Yamaha triple, 10 Lawson, 9 Geyer, 7 for 103 and Schmidt, 5 McCracken, 2 Atkinson. He found almost no sections that all played the same horns, the Met being one exception. A couple of the top orchestras didn't list their horns, I think Chicago was one. FWIW. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: 5 valves
Good heavens! Don't tell tuba players their 4th valve is a parlor trick. That could lead to fisticuffs! Actually there have to be more than a few pieces that would be nice on the single Bb that go below low Bb. How's about the Haydn 2nd concerto? I have a recording of Alfred Brain playing it and it's obvious that somebody else is playing the low As (bworff tutututututu Bworff etc.) it's not entirely seamless. Alfred only had 4 valves. Wendell Hoss had 5. Don't despair though, you can plug the 1st slide from an F horn into the thumb position and use it to get a nice low A. It's all pipes. I've built a few 6 valve Bb horns, well OK, by that point I might just as soon have the double but some people like a challenge. Jeez you can get bored playing a double horn every day. - Steve Mumford Larry wrote: If you are interested in a single Bb horn, I suggest finding one that you can play in tune on and and produce the tone you want from low C to high C (3 octaves) without an F extension. The F extension is a Rube Goldberg contraption (of very limited use), and if you think you need it, you would be better off staying on a double. The larger the volume of mpc you can use, the darker the tone will be. Using the stopping valve (4th valve), you can play down to Bb below low C. How often do you need to play below low Bb (2nd line bass clef) in concert?-- when you do, take your double. Regards, Larry ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: 5 valve single horn???
The F extension is the same length as 1 and 3 together and if you use the F extension, you can now play all the open notes you'd play on a single F horn. The valve slides for valves 1,2,3 will be too short for the F horn though so you can't exactly play merrily along as if it was a regular F horn. On the Bb horn, there's that missing range down below low C and with the F extension and some creative fingerings, you can play those notes. It's exactly the same kind of thing tuba players use their 4th valve for and you can get some good fingering tips by asking a tubaist. For a starting point, you might just try fingering a half step lower + the F extension. There's enough wiggle room down there to favor the pitch a bit. You can set the thumb valve as a flat 2nd valve or flat 1st and use it to influence the pitch. If you're playing classical music, you won't have to play chromatically down there, so you could set the slides so that low Bb or whatever you might have is perfectly in tune. I've been playing a nice old Kruspe 5 valve Bb horn lately and it's very enjoyable to have the lightness and flexibility of the Bb horn and also an enjoyable puzzle figuring out fingerings that work. I practiced some basson etudes for awhile to get used to the low range fingerings. - Steve Mumford Valerie wrote: Thanks guys for the interesting responses about 5 valve single horns. How = would one make use of the F extension? Would you hold it down finger the= other valves as if it were an F horn? If that's the intended use, wouldn'= t there be significant shortfalls for intonation =20 =20 Curious Val= ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Hiooo Silllver!
Sorry about that, I didn't misunderstand, I just saw that small portion of your statement as a convenient jumping off point for a little 8D cheerleading. My point simply being that 8Ds don't get no respect on this list. Even if you MODIFY them, they'll still sound pretty good! - Steve Mumford Hi Steve, You misunderstood. I never once declared that 8d's weren't being used. However, there was a time when you get a paying job in the US without an 8d with one or two exceptions. Your friend not withstanding, I would also add that hornplayer.net is generally not the whole picture or definitive as lots of the top players own/perform on more than one instrument and most of the listings are not done by section members of those top orchestras but by curious fans. Further, if you were to do a real survey of how many UNMODIFIED 8D's are being used your list would immediately shrink. Let's not make this a 8D argument please. I own and play (among other horns) a beautiful 800xxx 8d for years so I am definitely not against them. Also, the original point had to do with why the Chambers series mouthpieces were so often recommended. They work in general reasonably well on Kruspe wrapped horns. That was my point. Reading anything else into it isn't my intent. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Hiooo Sillllver!
Jack wrote: Also remember that in the US large silver Kruspe horns dominated for 30 years or so. Sorry for the drastic snip there! It seems to be the general feeling on this list that the era of the big silver horn is over, however... A friend did a survey of the section listings on Hornplayer.net and found that by far the most used horn in American orchestras that actually pay money is the Conn 8D, and most specified they were using Elkhart horns. It seems the reports of the Conn's demise have been greatly exaggerated! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: tuners
Speaking of tuners, my theory is that a lot of missed notes happen because the horn isn't tuned well with itself. If your ear's any good, you'll be trying to put the note where it ought to be pitch-wise. If the tuning of the slides doesn't agree with that, you'll get thin tone, burbled or missed attacks, all those things we love. People often mention that a particular horn doesn't have a high Bb or something similar. I've usually found that the missing note really is there, often quite clear and strong, but extremely sharp or flat. When you try to play it in the right place, it feels like there's no note there. I've been fooling around with a 5 valve single Bb lately and finally found some fingerings that feel stable. For a C scale: 4,3,2,0,4,3,2,0. That's fun! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
