Re: [Hornlist] pre 1957 horn texts
Also, Birchard Coar's The French Horn was published around 1950 Paul Navarro -Original Message- From: sot...@cybermesa.com To: Leonard Peggy Brown waldh...@sbcglobal.net; The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Mon, Jul 13, 2009 12:41 pm Subject: Re: [Hornlist] pre 1957 horn texts Birchard Coar's A Critical Study of Nineteenth Century Horn Virtuosi in France is from 1952. Steve Ovitsky Leonard wrote: Seems like most of the books I have seen about the horn (Morley~Pegge, Robin Gregory,etc) came out after 1957. This may be due to Dennis Brain's life. I know there are others out there. can you suggest some horn books, not methods, from pre 1957? LLB ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] (No subject)Where not to take your horn-
Some may think this is not necessarily horn related, but I think those who travel with their horn will really appreciate it. Plus, it is a good group. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Receiver size on Selman double horn
Tina, The only way you can tell exactly where the ventura is in a mouthpipe is to measure it . This is done with a small hole gauge. It must be done carefully, and once you know where it is, you can mark that place on the outside of the mouthpipe with a piece of tape, and then mark, on the mouthpiece shank, how for it goes into the mouthpipe. You can then compare the two measurements by placing the mouthpiece alongside the mouthpipe and compare the end of the mouthpiece and the mark for the ventura. Unfortunately, while many makers would claim otherwise, the ventura placement is not consistent from maker to maker, or consistent within many makers instruments. Most custom mouthpipes do not come with mouthpieces that fit the horn's ventura. While many standard mouthpiece makers may use the same taper for their mouthpiece shanks, the thickness of the shanks can vary due to buffing, poor fabrication, and carelessness. The result is that even though the taper of the mouthpiece shank and the negative taper may be the same, they may in reality not match up the way they should. Also as Kendall pointed out, as mouthpipes wear, the mouthpipe opening can wear or stretch and end up causing a poor fit between the mouthpiece and the mouthpipe. Wear on the mouthpiece shank can have the same result. While some of the custom horn makers are pretty close in where they place the ventura in the mouthpipe, it is not an aspect of horn building that gets the amount of attention that it deserves. In my shop I work primarily on professional's horns so I have seen and worked on,(or owned) all of the major maker's horns and have seen variances that are sometimes very suprising- not in a good way. The only maker whose horns I have played or worked on that have seriously consistent ventura placement are Walter Lawson's horns. Paul -Original Message- From: Tina Barkan tina.bar...@gmail.com To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 7:13 am Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Receiver size on Selman double horn Paul - You say, The end of the mouthpiece should ideally come right to the beginning of the ventura. If these line up, they provide a taper that expands from the bore of the mouthpiece to the cylindrical tubing of the horn without gaps or obstructions. If the negative taper can vary from 1/2 to 1 long is there anyway to know for sure that the end of the mouthpiece actually comes right to the beginning of the ventura? If one buys a custom leadpipe does it come with it's own custom mouthpiece? I'm guessing but it seems to me that the length of the negative taper may be one of the specs that custom leadpipe manufacturers change in order to make their great leadpipes. All of the stock mouthpiece manufacturers must be making some assumption about the length of the negative taper and this length may not correspond to the length of the negative taper of a custom leadpipe. Thanks, Tina On Apr 29, 2009, at 11:09 PM, corno...@aol.com wrote: HI Steve, Here is a very basic answer to your question. A lead pipe has three primary physical components that are important to its acoustical design. They are: A. the negative taper. This is the 1st section (aprox. 1/2 to 1 long) that the mouthpiece fits into. It is called the negative taper because, to accept the taper of the mouthpiece shank, the taper measures from large to smaller. This is in opposition to the main mouthpipe taper, which tapers from smaller to larger. B. The Ventura. This is the smallest cross section measurement of the mouthpipe, where the negative taper and the main taper meet. C. The main taper of the mouthpipe. This is the portion of the mouthpipe taper that goes from the ventura to the beginning of the cylindrical tubing. The end of the mouthpiece should ideally come right to the beginning of the ventura. If these line up, they provide a taper that expands from the bore of the mouthpiece to the cylindrical tubing of the horn without gaps or obstructions. If the mouthpiece goes past the ventura, or not far enough into the mouthpipe to meet it, response and intonation will generally be degraded. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tina.barkan%40gmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Receiver size on Selman double horn
Jeremy wrote: You can have whatever length of taper you'd like. It's the rate of taper that's important. If the rate of taper of both the leadpipe and the mouthpice are identical (which is an agreed upon standard), then your mouthpiece could go in .1 or 2 and it won't make any difference. That is of course as long as the end of the mouthpiece and the venturi line up (which, if the rate of taper is the same, they should) Jeremy, The problem with this in practice, is that even though the mouthpiece shank and the negative taper of the mouthpipe have the same rate of taper, it does not mean they will line up. When you have a certain rate of taper, the dimensions of two pieces lining up are only similar if they are cut at the correct ( meaning the same dimensional ) place. You could theoretically have a mouthpiece with a 0 morse taper on the shank and a mouthpipe with a 0 morse negative taper, and if cut in the wrong place along the length of the taper, the mouthpiece might not even fit into the mouthpipe-- even though they were both the same rate of taper. Paul ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Receiver size on Selman double horn
HI Steve, Here is a very basic answer to your question. A lead pipe has three primary physical components that are important to its acoustical design. They are: A. the negative taper. This is the 1st section (aprox. 1/2 to 1 long) that the mouthpiece fits into. It is called the negative taper because, to accept the taper of the mouthpiece shank, the taper measures from large to smaller. This is in opposition to the main mouthpipe taper, which tapers from smaller to larger. B. The Ventura. This is the smallest cross section measurement of the mouthpipe, where the negative taper and the main taper meet. C. The main taper of the mouthpipe. This is the portion of the mouthpipe taper that goes from the ventura to the beginning of the cylindrical tubing. The end of the mouthpiece should ideally come right to the beginning of the ventura. If these line up, they provide a taper that expands from the bore of the mouthpiece to the cylindrical tubing of the horn without gaps or obstructions. If the mouthpiece goes past the ventura, or not far enough into the mouthpipe to meet it, response and intonation will generally be degraded. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
William, You may disagree with this statement completely, but it is important to consider two of your own statements. The first is: The sound might not be what you desire. If you don't understand how important the sound color and weight are in Baroque concerti ( or for all music), then there is no basis for a discussion. The second is : Also, where do people get the notion that below a particular note you must use another horn completely? If you can get away with the same horn and a decent sound and still play it musically, who cares? Robson's question was about a Bb/Bb alto instrument. My statement refered to that instrument. If you consider intonation part of what constitutes a musical performance, then you should understand that while it may be possible to play on only one horn ( and I assume you actually mean one side of this particular instrument- the Bb alto side), the intonation possibilities for the lower register notes using the normal Bb horn are much more satisfactory because you have more usuable overtone positions to work with on the regular Bb horn than on the Bb alto horn. Also the response on the normal Bb horn is much better for the lower notes than the Bb alto horn's lower response. If you want to limit your approach to just what is technically possible, you can play the Neruda on a single F horn--- all of the notes are there. :) Please let us know when and if you try this. I am sure a lot of us would like to be there. :) Paul -Original Message- From: valkh...@aol.com To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:10 am Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda I disagree with this statement completely. You can play notes well below the G above the treble clef. The sound may not be what you desire but it is completely possible due to the fact that the Fundamental is actually the F below the treble clef. This means F down to B natural is doable. Of course there's a break of an octave so the next series is F down to B natural an octave above - meaning the entire treble clef is playable - technically :) Also, where do people get the notion that below a particular note you must use another horn completely? If you can get away with the same horn and a decent sound and still play it musically, who cares? -William In a message dated 4/25/2009 11:34:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corno...@aol.com writes: Hello Robson, No, the Bb alto horn is very limited below the top of the staff- it is generally used above written high G. Almost everything below that requires a regular Bb horn. I have a Bb/Bb alto model 60, made by Paxman and have found very little use for it besides the Neruda and some other baroque concertos, and a few other symphonic compositions, like the Haydn symphomy #51. Paul Navarro **Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown0003) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
I went to Ifor James for coaching when I was working on the Neruda concerto. He recorded it on a Paxman Bb/ Bb alto horn. Paul Navarro -Original Message- From: John Dutton dutto...@gmail.com To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 4:50 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any horn that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February 1987 and no doubt on 1/2 tape. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
Hello Robson, No, the Bb alto horn is very limited below the top of the staff- it is generally used above written high G. Almost everything below that requires a regular Bb horn. I have a Bb/Bb alto model 60, made by Paxman and have found very little use for it besides the Neruda and some other baroque concertos, and a few other symphonic compositions, like the Haydn symphomy #51. Paul Navarro -Original Message- From: Robson Adabo de Mello robson.ad...@gmail.com To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda Is there anybody here that has ever tried a Bb/bb horn? I know that Paxman and Finke have a Bb/bb (both model 60). Once I heard that the Eb high horns that Engelbert is producing are better because the high Eb is not so different from the Bb like the high F, so it's possible to have more uniform transition. Is it possible to use the Bb/bb as a double horn or the difference between Bb and bb is to big to make it possible? Did he played everything on the high Bb side of the horn? Robson 2009/4/25 David A. Jewell paxm...@yahoo.com that's my understanding of the Paxman instrument. As an aside, Barry Tuckwell recorded the Zelenka Capriccios on the same model instrument. Paxmaha From: Steve Freides steve.frei...@gmail.com To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda Paul, does that mean it had a low Bb side that's the same as the Bb side of a standard double, and then another Bb side that's one octave higher, which is what people here have, I think, been calling Bb soprano? Thanks. -S- On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:26 PM, corno...@aol.com wrote: I went to Ifor James for coaching when I was working on the Neruda concerto. He recorded it on a Paxman Bb/ Bb alto horn. Paul Navarro -Original Message- From: John Dutton dutto...@gmail.com To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 4:50 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any horn that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February 1987 and no doubt on 1/2 tape. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/paxmaha%40yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/robson.adabo%40gmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Fwd: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
Hi Steve, You are correct. It is a standard B/b A -- a four valve normal Bb horn, combined with a Bb alto or sometimes called a Bb soprano ( the same length as a Bb trumpet). Paxman also makes triples in F/Bb/ Bb alto. When I went to Ifor, I took a Bb/F alto horn, and when I took it out, he smiled and said I think you will find that a Bb/ Bb is a much better horn for this piece. Paul -Original Message- From: Steve Freides steve.frei...@gmail.com To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 9:10 pm Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda Paul, does that mean it had a low Bb side that's the same as the Bb side of a standard double, and then another Bb side that's one octave higher, which is what people here have, I think, been calling Bb soprano? Thanks. -S- On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:26 PM, corno...@aol.com wrote: I went to Ifor James for coaching when I was working on the Neruda concerto. He recorded it on a Paxman Bb/ Bb alto horn. Paul Navarro -Original Message- From: John Dutton dutto...@gmail.com To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 4:50 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any hor n that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February 1987 and no doubt on 1/2 tape. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Stopping valve
Hi David, The answer to your question is sometimes. Both Paxman and Alexander offer (as an extra accessory), a slide with a manual change valve. With the valve in the closed position, the slide acts as an A slide. With the valve in the open position, an additional slide length is added to the A slide for stopping. Some other makers also have this option available. Paul Navarro Custom Horn -Original Message- From: David A. Jewell paxm...@yahoo.com To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Stopping valve Most good stopping valve slides are in two pieces, so that the player can choose between stopping and A horn. Dan Is that where they have a manual rotary valve to add or subract the extra length? Paxmaha ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Stopping valve
Robson, That is exactly it. Paul -Original Message- From: Robson Adabo de Mello robson.ad...@gmail.com To: The Horn List horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:34 pm Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Stopping valve It must be something like that: http://hornplayer.net/images/forsale/8721.jpg Robson Hi David, The answer to your question is sometimes. Both Paxman and Alexander offer (as an extra accessory), a slide with a manual change valve. With the valve in the closed position, the slide acts as an A slide. With the valve in the open position, an additional slide length is added to the A slide for stopping. Some other makers also have this option available. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] test
Testing connection to see if list is active. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Janine at Michigan State has split with Gordon Sly
Ellen, Your post here is one of the most distasteful messages I have ever seen on the horn list. This is personal information that is no place on this list. Posting this kind of material does not speak well for your own personal integrity. Paul Navarro Adj. Professor of horn Indiana University Jacobs School of Music Bloomington, Indiana -Original Message- From: Ellen Manthe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 9:02 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Janine at Michigan State has split with Gordon Sly I guess you probably don't know, or care, but Janine Gaboury-Sly (now just Gaboury) and Gordon Sly have split. There must be a problem with Michigan State horn professors and remaining in a marriage - first Doug/LauraLee and now Janine and Gord, as she calls him. He is a nice guy - I feel for their kids. He did most of the care while she ran around on him a lot. Once when we subbed with either the DSO or Windsor, I forget- she was supposed to stay at my house but I do not know where she went. I am glad I did not have to cover for her. There is always something juicy going on in the Music Bldg and the MPB. I guess their offices are still in 410 and 411 in the Music Practice Bldg, so that must be a lot of fun. His parents gave them the money to pay off their Eastman loans and buy their house, so wonder how that is going to work. I think that maybe East Lansing is just such a Peyton Place type of setting that news like this gets sent around the country. Janine did not and does not still get along with her students, except for some of the undergrad me. Any way, the School of Music becomes a College and still it didn't get as much press among the horn grads as this - at least the ones who had her. Just to keep you up of MSU. Ellen ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Who's the player?
No, the player in question is not Myron Bloom. While Myron is in his early 80's, I have to agree with Orlando, he certainly does not look his age. Also, not only did he do a great job on the Mahler 4th last summer, just a few months before that, he did a beautiful performance of the Brahms Trio on a chamber music series. I feel very honored to have been asked by Myron to teach his studio last fall and some of this semester while he is on sabbatical-- -traveling and doing other things. One of the qualities that amazes me about Myron is his (still !!) incredible and genuine passion for music and performing. And yes, Hans, there is more to life than just horn, but sometimes there are individuals who are creative enough to do many different things--at any age. One of the things I tell my students is the people who say it can't be done should never interrupt the people doing it. Paul Navarro Adj. Professor of Horn Jacobs School of Music Indiana University. Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret.) Owner, Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] SCHMIDT, CONN, KRUSPE, AND MORE
Here are some observations I would like to share in regards to some of the recent postings on the horn list. First of all, as to the Schmidt mouthpipe being called a a narrow taper mouthpipe, I think that this is somewhat misleading terminology. The generally accepted description by most makers of what is meant by this, is a slow tapered mouthpipe. This means that the taper flares out slower than a fast tapered pipe, which flares out sooner. In practical terms, this means that, given two pipes that are 18 inches long, starting with the small end measuring exactly the same , if you measure both pipes at 3, then 6, then 9, the faster tapered pipe will have wider inside measurements at these places than the slower tapered pipe. The mouthpipes used by Schmidt (yes, they had more than one taper), were almost always slow tapered pipes. As far as the Schmidt mouthpipe being copied by Geyer and Kruspe , I do not agree with this. Geyer had two basic tapers of mouthpipe. One which he used for his Schmidt models and for replacement pipes for Schmidt's, and another for his own Geyer models. I actually have his templates for these mouthpipes as Carl gave them to me when he retired. The template for the Geyer is larger than the one for the Schmidt. Carl also used a different taper for single F horns than he did for doubles. He also modified the tapers in his mouthpipes depending on who he was making the horn for, and according to what he thought were their individual needs. Kruspe also used more than one mouthpipe taper depending on the model, and for most of the double horns, the taper was a fast taper for the first (aprx.) 9 inches of the mouthpipe. This was not the case for the pipe designed by Conn for the 8D , although Conn went through quite a lengthy period of experimentation before settling on one design. And some players thought that the early mouthpipes were superior in playing characteristics. As to the discussion of the alloy for German silver, Kruspe had small amounts of tin and lead in their alloy, but it was not quite the same as nickel bronze. Walter Lawson told me that he choose nickel bronze because it was the closest alloy to the Kruspe alloy that he could find. One only has to look at the difference in color between the two to see this. As to Conn 8D bells as compared to most Kruspe bells, the German silver alloy Kruspe used was harder than the alloy Conn used, but Conn also had a tendency to over anneal the 8D bells to facilitate production. This made the metal softer. This certainly made a difference in the sound of the horns, but one also has to consider the allocation of the metal thickness between the two makers bells. Conn bells were thinner in the throat area and then gradually were thicker near the rim of the bell whereas with the Kruspe bells, the allocation was reversed. The Kruspe throats were thicker and the metal was thinner out towards the end of the rim. This makes a large difference in tone and response. It is easy and tempting to generalize that what made the difference between the horns was the metal composition. That did play a big part in the difference, but one also has to consider many other factors. For example, if a horn weighs about 3/4 of a pound more that another horn, the extra weight will also play a large part in the difference in tone and response. Kruspe used to thin the parts for their horns to make the horns lighter. Geyer sometimes used this technique depending on the weight of the parts he had available to use. If you look at many Kruspes with a strong magnifying glass , you can sometimes still see the leftover file marks where the parts were filed thinner- if they haven't been worn or buffed off. This also played a part in the sound quality. As to the special Kruspe sound mentioned, the faster taper in the mouthpipe was believed by many to be a factor in this sound quality. Geyer thought that this faster initial taper was in part responsible for the what he called gravy in the Kruspe's sound quality. Many players have changed the mouthpipes on their Kruspe horns in order to help correct some of the intonation problems in the upper register only to find that while the intonation was somewhat better, the sound quality was diminished from the sound with the original mouthpipe. Another factor concerning intonation problems with both the large bell Kruspes and the large bell Conns is the necessary critical placement of the hand position with a large throated bell. A large throat in a bell lowers the upper harmonics and players using horns with these bells have to make sure that their hand position does not further complicate this by lowering the upper harmonics even more. A great discussion of this is in Richard Merewether's book, THE HORN. Another factor that plays a part in Kruspe's upper register note placement is that the bells on most Kruspes do
Re: [Hornlist] Kruspe, Conn, Schmidt and more
Here are some observations I would like to share in regards to some of the recent postings on the horn list. First of all, as to the Schmidt mouthpipe being called a a narrow taper mouthpipe, I think that this is somewhat misleading terminology. The generally accepted description by most makers of what is meant by this, is a slow tapered mouthpipe. This means that the taper flares out slower than a fast tapered pipe, which flares out sooner. In practical terms, this means that, given two pipes that are 18 inches long, starting with the small end measuring exactly the same , if you measure both pipes at 3, then 6, then 9, the faster tapered pipe will have wider inside measurements at these places than the slower tapered pipe. The mouthpipes used by Schmidt (yes, they had more than one taper), were almost always slow tapered pipes. As far as the Schmidt mouthpipe being copied by Geyer and Kruspe , I do not agree with this. Geyer had two basic tapers of mouthpipe. One which he used for his Schmidt models and for replacement pipes for Schmidt's, and another for his own Geyer models. I actually have his templates for these mouthpipes as Carl gave them to me when he retired. The template for the Geyer is larger than the one for the Schmidt. Carl also used a different taper for single F horns than he did for doubles. He also modified the tapers in his mouthpipes depending on who he was making the horn for, and according to what he thought were their individual needs. Kruspe also used more than one mouthpipe taper depending on the model, and for most of the double horns, the taper was a fast taper for the first (aprx.) 9 inches of the mouthpipe. This was not the case for the pipe designed by Conn for the 8D , although Conn went through quite a lengthy period of experimentation before settling on one design. And some players thought that the early mouthpipes were superior in playing characteristics. As to the discussion of the alloy for German silver, Kruspe had small amounts of tin and lead in their alloy, but it was not quite the same as nickel bronze. Walter Lawson told me that he choose nickel bronze because it was the closest alloy to the Kruspe alloy that he could find. One only has to look at the difference in color between the two to see this. As to Conn 8D bells as compared to most Kruspe bells, the German silver alloy Kruspe used was harder than the alloy Conn used, but Conn also had a tendency to over anneal the 8D bells to facilitate production. This made the metal softer. This certainly made a difference in the sound of the horns, but one also has to consider the allocation of the metal thickness between the two makers bells. Conn bells were thinner in the throat area and then gradually were thicker near the rim of the bell whereas with the Kruspe bells, the allocation was reversed. The Kruspe throats were thicker and the metal was thinner out towards the end of the rim. This makes a large difference in tone and response. It is easy and tempting to generalize that what made the difference between the horns was the metal composition. That did play a big part in the difference, but one also has to consider many other factors. For example, if a horn weighs about 3/4 of a pound more that another horn, the extra weight will also play a large part in the difference in tone and response. Kruspe used to thin the parts for their horns to make the horns lighter. Geyer sometimes used this technique depending on the weight of the parts he had available to use. If you look at many Kruspes with a strong magnifying glass , you can sometimes still see the leftover file marks where the parts were filed thinner- if they haven't been worn or buffed off. This also played a part in the sound quality. As to the special Kruspe sound mentioned, the faster taper in the mouthpipe was believed by many to be a factor in this sound quality. Geyer thought that this faster initial taper was in part responsible for the what he called gravy in the Kruspe's sound quality. Many players have changed the mouthpipes on their Kruspe horns in order to help correct some of the intonation problems in the upper register only to find that while the intonation was somewhat better, the sound quality was diminished from the sound with the original mouthpipe. Another factor concerning intonation problems with both the large bell Kruspes and the large bell Conns is the necessary critical placement of the hand position with a large throated bell. A large throat in a bell lowers the upper harmonics and players using horns with these bells have to make sure that their hand position does not further complicate this by lowering the upper harmonics even more. A great discussion of this is in Richard Merewether's book, THE HORN. Another factor that plays a part in Kruspe's upper register note placement is that the bells on most Kruspes do not have a gradual taper to the end of the
[Hornlist] Looking for Robert Cherry
Hello, I am looking for contact information for Robert Cherry, U.S.Army Field Band. If anyone has his email address or phone number, I would really appreciate it if you would e-mail it to me privately at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need to contact him regarding an I .U. matter. Thank you, Paul Navarro Adj. Professor of Horn Jacobs School of Music, Indiana University Bloomington ,Indiana ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Flight case
In the past I have had several problems getting my horn on the smaller planes. However, since I purchased a Bonna case that has a removable bell section, I have had no problems at all. Recently flying between Stockholm and Oslo, I encountered the most adamant flight attendant who insisted that the horn was just NOT going on the plane. I unzipped the bell section from the body of the case and showed her that the body could go in the overhead compartment, and the bell section under the seat. She didn't know what to say except I guess that will work. This is the only case I now use or will use for flying. For those not familiar with this case, it has two sections: one for the body of the horn and another for the bell. The two zip together to form a normal shaped Bonna case. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret). ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] WALTER LAWSON
To all members of the hornlist: Today was the funeral service for our esteemed colleague, Walter Lawson. Yesterday I contacted Heidi Vogel (Executive Secretary of the IHS) and asked her to present to the IHS advisory board my request to form a Walter Lawson Memorial Scholarship. Heidi agreed to present this proposal to the Advisory board at the IHS Convention in Switzerland in July. Once Heidi informs me that the Board has approved this proposal (and I cannot foresee any reason why they would not do so), I will post on this list that it has been accepted, and where anyone who wishes to contribute to this scholarship fund should send their contribution. While this is just a small gesture of our appreciation, it is the very least we can do in memory of our colleague and friend who contributed so much to so many of us. Paul Navarro IHS State Representative Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret). ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] P for high range
In a message dated 6/27/07 9:41:58 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The foundations, or I might say the basis, is the quality of sound and the quality articulation in the lower and central range. Working properly on that, everything else comes as a consequence by steady study. That is my experience at least, agreeing with my teacher's approach (he would say: you can't build a house starting from the roof). The posts on this thread are so full of interpretive pitfalls language wise, that I am reminded of how important it is to actually listen to a student's playing in person before giving out prescriptions for a cure. I am always suspect of excess verbosity on the part of teachers and conductors. I strongly agree with Daniel's teacher 's approach about the necessity of starting with building a good foundation in your performing skills. This was a basic tenet of Arnold Jacobs teaching. I would like to note that one of my colleagues from Lyric Opera, Bruce Nelson (who also studied with Jake), has put together a compilation of all of Jacob's teaching material that he could find. It is published by Windsong Press under the title Thus Spake Arnold Jacobs. I mention this because quite a few of the ideas that are attributed to Jacobs here on this list are not quite on target with what he believed and taught. Sometimes players have a few lessons with a teacher and think that they have an understanding of what the teacher's basic ideas are. This was very dangerous with Jacobs because he often taught progressively. That is, he adapted his approach to what you needed first, and then over time, changed that adaptation to fit your progress. This was always with the final goals of efficient simplicity and performing musically in mind. He believed in Herseth's old adage-too much analysis leads to paralysis. If you would like great information on how to develop and use your air, and also how to take technical challenges and turn them into musical challenges-whereby they can be solved more effectively (something rarely mentioned or attributed to Jake on this list), this material may be very helpful. For more information check out their website: www.windsongpress.com Maybe the P inP for high range should stand for PRACTICE. Paul Navarro Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret.) Longtime student of Arnold Jacobs ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RIP Walter Lawson
I am greatly saddened to hear of Walter's death. He has been a very close friend to me for the last 37 years and I have met few people in my lifetime who were as generous and helpful as Walter. His devotion to his family was an example for all of us. His spirit of embracing learning and sharing his knowledge with others made him truly unique in today's world. Yes, yesterday the horn world lost one of its greatest geniuses, but most importantly, the world lost a truly beautiful man. Paul Navarro ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] musical idiot disgusti ng arranger.
In a message dated 5/6/07 7:41:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You would not believe how good it sounds! You should have heard the Memphis Jug Band's first all Brahms concert !! P .N. ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Yes, I'm stumped.
In a message dated 5/1/07 2:18:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It depends. Which one has a bigger first branch: the 8D, the Geyer, or the tree? Gotta go, Cabbage Das ist gut !! Leaf it to you !!! P.N. ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: The preferred tone/sound these days?
In a message dated 4/29/07 8:59:16 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It dependsAnsel Adams comes to mind. Might be a good time to take another look at Ansel Adams work -- black, white, and innumerable shades of gray. Paul N. ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: The preferred tone/sound these days?
This entire discussion is getting pretty boring. The goal of any artist musician is to convey emotional images in sound. To convey a message to the listener. To effectively accomplish this one has to know much about the musical intentions of the composer and then do their best to bring these intentions to life in an effective way. This requires that the performer use all aspects of the sound--dynamics, weight, intensity and color in a flexible and imaginative way. In other words, the performer needs to be flexible enough to be able to change their sound to create an effective rendering of what is being performed. And so must the instrument be sonically flexible enough to aid the performer in accomplishing this. Would you enjoy looking at an artists paintings who only used one color of paint? Artist performers choose instruments that help enable them to be flexible and fulfill these goals, not just because the instrument has a certain built in sound. The concept that artists choose a horn because it has a certain sound, and that the brand is more important than the creativity and imagination of the performer, is patently sophomoric and totally misses the point of musical interpretation and performance. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret.) ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Lubricating Valves
In a message dated 4/23/07 10:03:12 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wouldn't use lanolin on the slides. Mixing animal fat with petroleum is not a good idea. You'll end up with a white slimy mess which eventually will gum up your valves. I have been using lanolin on my slides for all of my horns for 35 years and have never had the problem you describe. Paul Navarro Custom horn ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Happy Holidays
In a message dated 12/24/06 8:38:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Duoh, Wendell, it's gonna be 2007 but thanks for the good wishes anyway! Kendall, Please show some respect for California time:) also, Have a Merry christmas Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Bonna Flight Case available
Hello All, This is just a notice that a colleague of mine has a black like new Bonna Flight case for sale. ( model GB-MB5 ) She asked me if i would post it for her here on the list. If you would like to reach her about it, her email is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Meinl Flare: Good, Bad or Ugly?
In a message dated 12/7/06 4:40:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I used a Meinl flare on my Alex 107 and it made a great difference in the sound as compared to the stock Alex flare. One of the problems here is which Meinl !! There are several who manufacture instruments. Gerhard Meinl manufactures the Hoyer horns Ewald Meinl manufactures bells for many of the finest makers, including Alexander. Ewald is Gerhard's uncle. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Meinl Flare: Good, Bad or Ugly?
In a message dated 12/7/06 11:52:08 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think Paul Navarro was working with Meinl 5 to 7 years ago to develop an 8d replacement flare. Perhaps this is one of those. Paul contributes to this list from time to time, so perhaps he will give better and more specific information. Yes, I did work with Ewald Meinl and do import his bells, including the one we came up with for the Elkhart 8D replacement flare. Many professionals use these flares on their 8D's. I have installed them on approx. 60 Elkhart 8D's for clients. Unfortunately, they are untimely to get at this time-due to personnel problems that Ewald is experiencing at his shop. The order time is taking approx. one year. Hopefully this will change in the near future. The player who wrote saying he used a Meinl flare with his Alex 107 could not likely have been using one of the ones I import because there is a large size difference between the flare for an 8D and one for an Alex 107. The ledge between the two flares would certainly create acoustical problems for a sensitive performer. One must be mindful that trying different flares on a horn is not as simple as just making sure that the rings are compatible. There are several important parameters that need to be met to make sure that, while a certain flare may seem to improve a horn, the flare should also be either compatible with the overall harmonic series of the instrument or a total improvement of the series, and not just influencing one particular aspect positively while degrading a nother aspect at the same time. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Meinl Flare: Good, Bad or Ugly?
In a message dated 12/7/06 4:40:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: used a Meinl flare on my Alex 107 and it made a great difference in the sound as compared to the stock Alex flare. Meinl makes the stock Alex bells. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Unwarranted attack onf Prof. Pizka
In a message dated 9/9/06 10:18:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is a saying we have here in the good old US of A...Don't dish it out if you can't take it back! We have another saying here in the good old US of A---one worth considering here during these particular exchanges--- Sometimes it is better to remain quiet and be thought of as a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Sticky Valves?
In a message dated 6/30/06 1:20:59 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Place the horn on one's lap or in a vise with the slides pointing straight up. A repair person on this list will have the best way to do this . Rachael, Are you serious??? Never, I repeat, never, put your horn in a vise. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Sticky Valves?
In a message dated 6/30/06 10:04:07 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When I need a horn held steady for something I'm about to do to it, I place in the vise a wood block out of which extend two parallel wood dowels, spaced to fit into two sides of a valve slide or tuning slide. That holds the horn safely and securely, while I clean it, solder a brace, or whatever needs done. Jerry, This is a somewhat similar procedure used by some repair techs. Not everyone knows about this and even if they did, it is still possible for someone who is not familiar with this tool / technique to badly damage their horn. this is quite different than putting your horn in a vise. Sometimes it is necessary to be specific. Remember, Chris, who posted the question said he had only been playing horn for about a week. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recovering after Break
Hi Dave, You probably have had some swelling in your mouth and throat due to these problems. Allow your body to return to normal. Most importantly -- do not psych your self out over this. If you are practicing intelligently, paying attention to what is happening in the present-without worrying about the future, then your recovery will happen in a short time. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Lawson Descant horn on Ebay
This is just a note to let players know that there is a Lawson descant for sale on E bay ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Whoshing valve sound
In a message dated 5/25/06 7:55:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, the sound happens even just with air going through the horn when I press the trigger, only on the thumb trigger. I can blow through the horn and not play a note, but there is this loud air noise at the change valve only when I press the trigger back and forth Sometimes horns are made with the Bb valve rotor ports machined THROUGH the rotor instead of out of the side of the rotor. This is especially true of some Geyer style valve layouts. When the rotor is made in this fashion, there is a small section of metal that passes through the air flow when you depress the rotor. The whooshing sound you describe is the kind of sound that this section of the rotor makes when it passes through the air flow. You can tell if your Bb valve is made in this way by taking the rotor out and examining the ports in the rotor. The condition can be rectified by very carefully recutting the side of the valve rotor and should be attempted only by top quality horn tech.s who are familiar with the process. If it is done incorrectly, the integrity of the valve rotor may be compromised, and it will not retain its strength and then may have to be replaced. Paul Navarro Custom horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: FW: [Hornlist] Quick question about cleaning.....
In a message dated 4/27/06 1:53:20 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The wax idea would serve a similar function as the graphite and indeed one could use a chunk of bakers paraffin too (found in the baking aisle of your grocer) Wax from a candle will also work just as well. A very small amount is all you need. I never recommend any petroleum based lubricants for bell rings to my clients. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Is this a Vienna Horn?
Hi Steve, This Stone's song, You can't always get what you want was recorded in London with the London Bach Choir. The horn player was Al Kooper, who also played piano and organ on the recording. It probably was not a Vienna horn. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] playing low/high
In a message dated 4/4/06 7:34:53 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'd also like to believe after 6 years of college, I'm not that stupid. Hello Mara, It is not a question of being stupid, it is a question of having enough awareness and the correct knowledge to be able to self diagnose and then solve your problem. You asked for information and help and Hans provided you with a total overview of what is necessary to achieve professional results. To quote Garrison Keillor of Prairie Home Companion, If you didn't want to go to Minneapolis, you shouldn't have gotten on the train Paul Navarro Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret.) 32 years ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] das rheingold intrp
Hi Ron, It should be played exactly as written-plus, all eight players should phrase identically-- as smoothly as possible with a seamless phrase. Just keep a very steady air column going and sing ! Paul Navarro Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret.) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] French Horn sayings
Why is the horn God's favorite instrument ? Because when any of the others instrumentalists begin to play, the audience applauds but when horn players begin to play, the audience prays. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] cases
In a message dated 3/6/06 5:13:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I recently got a Berp, and went to the website to check it out. I didn't know Berp also sells cases. Anyone familiar with the quality of these cases? Hello, It really is not necessary to buy a case for your new Berp. You can keep it in your horn case :) Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Need Bb Single Horn Advice
In a message dated 2/6/06 9:03:58 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is what I thought. However on this horn the 4th is indeed exactly the same length as the 1st. It can be used as an altenate 1st valve, and when used for stopping, the pitch is flat. Perhaps the only explanation is that it is an ill-conceived design. I am not sure that the whole tone slide on your horn was purposely designed for this, but it does have an interesting possibility. If you are going to play only the open F notes on an F extension (if you had one), you could also play them with the 1st and 3 rd valve combination. The problem is that this combination is too sharp to be really useful. I have made a slightly longer than a whole step slide that I use in the A/muting valve of my Paxman descant. Using this slide, I can use the muting valve lever and 3rd valve combination for the F horn extension and the longer slide lowers the pitch enough to give a correct F overtone series. I have used this for many years and never had to make an F extension (which sometimes can add enough weight to the horn to make it respond differently). I have also made slides like this for many other players for their descants. You can carry the whole step slide in the horn and a muting slide in your case and have both readily available in case you need them. My Point ? Why don't you try pulling the whole tone slide in your muting valve out about an inch or so and then, using the thumb valve and 3rd valve combination, tune the whole tone slide until you have a good open F harmonic using this combination ? This could give you the same results as a F extension and you wouldn't have to have one made. It is possible that this is why the slide was originally designed that way. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Need Bb Single Horn Advice
In a message dated 2/6/06 11:43:42 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Bb horns with an A/+ stop valve, there is a short section which extends the stopping slide from 3/4 tone to a full tone The short removable section that is present on most Bb horns is an extension to lengthen the A slide (or 1/2 tone slide) to a muting slide (or 3/4 tone slide) for hand stopping. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Need Bb Single Horn Advice
In a message dated 2/6/06 3:31:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 've never seen a 5V Bb with the Bb/Ab setup you describe Isn't the King Bb horn he was describing a 4 valve horn? Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] slippery high Bb
In a message dated 2/3/06 12:37:58 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone out there have any success with fixing this specific sort of problem? If there are any ledges, then the slide must be dissasembled and reassembled without the ledges. Also, the slide may have been assembled with a lot of tension in it. This could cause difficulties in response. If it were my horn, I would also check to make sure that the crook at the end of the slide had the same internal bore as the slide tubing. Is the slide loose? If so, it may need to be tightened. These are some possibilities for helping to correct the problem. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Conn vs. Yamaha vs. Hoyer, etc.
In a message dated 2/1/06 4:29:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not sure when it was made. The other's I tried were early ones, I think. As to prices, here are today's prices at The Brasswind and the Woodwind of South Bend IN: Conn 8D - $3,079 Yamaha 886II N - $2,957 Holton 179, 188 - $2,979 Hoyer 6802 - $3,145 This Hoyer 6802 price of $3,145 is for a B stock instrument and it is an older model. They supposedly only had one at this price. It wa a close out price through their outlet center. I know this information is correct as supplied to me by WWBW, as I purchased this horn on Monday to disassemble it and see what improvements could be made to it through customization. The current price a WWBW for the new version of this model is around $3450. One of the things that you should consider when purchasing any one of these above listed horns, is that you should not expect to buy just any one of any of the above brands and have it be a good instrument. All of these brands are spotty as to the individual horn. You should always try more than one because they all vary in quality-some slightly --some greatly. This is somewhat true of almost all maker's horns. I am frequently asked by my clients for information as to what horns are decent in the current marketplace for their students, so I have tried about 12 of each of these models in the past year. ALL of these horns are priced for the low to medium market and to some extent this is reflected in the quality of the instruments. You can find some poor ones and occasionally a really nice one, but for the most part they are in general (in my opinion), average quality instruments. The Hoyers and the Yamahas have a much higher percentage of good instruments, and Hoyer has the most aggressive developmental improvement campaign. The King- UMI horns seem to have the most problems. If you want to take the time and effort, you could always look for a higher end used horn in this price range. The prices for used horns on Hornplayer.net and the consignment markets are not necessarily the best available prices. Sometimes it is better to contact the local pros in your area and inquire as to if they know of any good quality used instruments in this price range ($3000-3500). In the past year I have seen very good quality used instruments from Paxman, Alexander, Schmidt, Conn (Elkhart 8D's), and Yamaha (models 861,863,862, and 867) for sale within this price range. When you buy a horn you should audition it in as many circumstances as you can-your ensemble(s), at home, in a recital hall if possible, and always have a few good sessions with your tuner and the horn before you commit to buy it. Frequently what feels and sounds good in the practice room is not what works well in an ensemble. If at all possible, don't buy the first one you try unless you have totally fallen in love with it, it is very good, and you have really checked it out. If you have a knowledgeable repair person available, have them check it out. Even new horns can have problems. If you don't find out if there are problems with the horn before you buy it, and you soon discover that there are problems, then you will probably have to pay to have the problems corrected, so then the total price of the horn goes up. As far as buying a horn by the brand, remember that more importantly than the brand or model, is that the horn fit you personally---musically and physically . Another thing to remember, even Rolls Royce made some lemons. Paul Navarro Custom horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] FWD: lighter weight horns
In a message dated 1/23/06 11:22:30 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: helps the performer achieve a level of flexibility with the instrument that allows them to change or adapt to any necessary criteria in a moments notice. This is to clarify what allows them to change or adapt to any necessary criteria refers to in this statement (as asked for in a private e-mail). What I mean is, when the instrument allows the performer to change (for example) from a heavy to a light sound, from a dark to a brighter sound. from a bright to a darker sound, from hard articulation to light articulation--etc., etc., or in other words, when the instrument allows the performer be as musically flexible as they want and need to be without getting in the way. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Chicago and New York styles
In a message dated 1/24/06 1:03:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think a better way to look at the idea of tone production would be to apply different colors' of sound depending on the individual piece This is a healthy and correct approach to sound/tone. It is important to think of yourself as an artist that needs and has many different colors of paint to work with. Consider how limited your work would be if you had only one color to work with. After you are able to assemble a full palate of colors, then you are able to work developing the different types of brush strokes (articulation), the different depths of the individual colors (weight of sound, articulation, dynamics, accents, etc.), and the overall idea of what you want to paint and how you want to paint it (interpretation). Then you will have developed some artistic versatility and can really do justice to the music you are performing and make a valid contribution to your art. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] FWD: lighter weight horns
This question about lighter weight or heavier weight horns is very complex. How does weight affect a horn? Does it make it louder, softer, brighter, darker, flexible, stiff, resonant, dead ???--the list could go on and on. Since the issue of weight is so complicated and can affect so many components -- such as response, sound color, projection, flexibility, intonation, PLUS is basically so personal as to the musical goals of the player, their physical make up, their technical strengths and weaknesses, the physical ccharacteristics of where they play-what group, what hall (or halls), the overall musical concept of the group(s) they perform with, the conductor's concept of tone and weight of sound desired for a particular piece, it is easy to understand that any generalizations that are made are likely to be true for some players, instruments, halls, compositions, conductors and not true for others. It seems that for our discussion here, the important characteristics of the physical weight of a particular instrument are correct for a particular player when the following criteria are met: 1. They feel comfortable physically with the horn 2. The instrument allows them the freedom to perform in a way that is stylistically musically correct for the composition they are performing-in the circumstances that they are performing it. 3. And probably most importantly, assuming that the above two requirements are met, that the instrument in question helps the performer achieve a level of flexibility with the instrument that allows them to change or adapt to any necessary criteria in a moments notice. To paraphrase how Abe Kniaz once aptly put it, we will be able to standardize, generalize, and codify all of this when all players have the same: physical size weight embouchure air capacity oral cavity teeth structure tonal concepts musical goals and are all playing on the same kind of horn and mouthpiece. Until then, it is whatever helps you get the job well done (both musically and technically) as efficiently as possible, that works best for you. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Lighter weight horns
In a message dated 1/23/06 11:27:48 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've sat in sections that would make you go blind from how loud it was down there but you go out in the audience and ... nothing. Steve, Isn't it sort of funny how players can get tricked into believing that loud really projects and then so easily reach the dimension of loud that is ugly and dead? I once heard a player (who was on an audition committee that I was also on) tell a candidate who asked about how they played on the audition-- Your sound was always loud, and mostly too brassy and edgy- but I don't think that it is really a problem because it doesn't project. Paul ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Fwd: Lighter weight horns
In a message dated 1/22/06 8:25:13 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's such an interesting problem in instrument construction, that of reducing weight, that I think one should first ask the question, why do it? So I ask the posting public, do you think a lighter weight horn has advantages, and if so, what are they? I have strong opinions on this question, but I would really like to see what everyone else thinks. Hello David, This is a very complex issue that requires a healthy amount of consideration concerning: musical goals technique goals instrument construction. It is also a subject that has a tendency to blur the lines between player empiricism and scientific data. You state that you have strong opinions on this subject therefore I have a question for you before we start the discussion. Since I believe that you are basically a tuba player, are your opinions based on your experience with the horn or the tuba? I believe that the difference between the two instruments addresses different issues and requirements. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves
In a message dated 1/9/06 1:01:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This uneven wear occurs at a much higher rate if the rotors are allowed to get loose, so having loose bearings tightened is probably the most cost effective repair you can have done. Hi Bill, This is so very true, The cost of having the valves cleaned and loose bearings tightened is about 1/5th of a decent valve replating Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky che ckbook?
In a message dated 1/9/06 9:03:27 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do not think that Dave was advertising to the list when he posted his knowledge of rotors. (Doesn't Osmun commonly post - 'see our website link below for more information'). Upon opening my e-mail this morning it appears now that my posts on valve rebuilding might have the seeds of a horn tech war. I hope not. This was certainly not my intention. I would like to thank those who have emailed me or called me privately with appreciation for the information. To the person who emailed me privately accusing me of one of the most blatant posts on the horn list-only designed to solicit repair work for my shop, I can only state that this was definitely not my intent. The information was posted only for educational purposes in response to someone who wanted information about valve work. But I also thought if I was going to be accused of it , maybe I should do a little. My shop is basically for professionals. I currently have horns that need work from: Vincent De Rosa--L.A. Myron Bloom--I.U. Stuart Rose- Principal, New York City Opera Michael Thornton--Principal, Colorado Symphony Steven Ovitsky--Director, Santa Fe Chamber Music Festival Leigh Ann Hooper-- U.S. Marine School of Music And one client flying in from the Boston area this week. While this might qualify as solicitation, I believe that this is enough to keep me busy for a while. I do not generally feel the need to advertise (I do at horn conventions though), have no web site, and run my business as a part time business. I t has never been my primary source of income and I find the accusation somewhat offensive. I do not know the person who sent it and therefore cannot address whatever issues are behind it But now he has a basis for complaint. I apologize to the other members of the list if any others interpreted my previous posts as a solicitation for work-or as a degradation of other repair techs work. They were, as I stated, sent only for informational purposes. Often it is stated on the list that some players wish that more repair techs would respond to their questions. I assume that responses like the one I was sent are one of the reasons they do not. Paul Navarro Custom horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] repair technitians
In a message dated 1/9/06 4:37:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Am I making too big an issue over valve timing or should the timing marks from the bearing to the cap line up exactly? Hi Kathy, I believe that the timing marks should match up exactly- unless there is a problem with them being incorrectly marked by the maker-which rarely happens. In the unlikely case that they are mismarked however, this should be explained to you how they are off and why the tech lined them up that way they did- by the tech when you pick up the instrument. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky che ckbook?
In a message dated 1/8/06 6:20:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Several posters to this list have claimed that you can improve the air seal of a horn by removing the end play, causing the valve to seat lower in the casing. Because the valves are tapered, seating the rotor lower will cause the side wall to move closer to the casing. That's the theory. Hi Bob, Actually, this is not the theory. Tightening the bearings does not move the valve lower in the casing. What it does, if done properly, is brings the top bearing plate down closer to the valve rotor. This keeps the rotor from moving out towards the bearing plate when the valve is depressed. When a valve is depressed the physics of the movement pushes the valve rotor up against the top bearing plate. Over time wear takes place on these upper bearing surfaces. Once this wear starts to accumulate, a very small space occurs between the rotor and the upper bearing when the valve is at rest. When the valve is depressed, the rotor moves forward towards and then contacts the upper bearing plate (this contact is sometimes heard as clicking). Since the valve is tapered, and since it has now moved forward because of the wear, there is now more space between the sides of the valve rotor and the sides of the valve casing than there was when the valve was at rest. This space is where the valve compression is lost. A very minute space can be felt and heard by a discerning performer as a fuzziness in the tone and degraded response. The basic correction is not to move the valve rotor lower in the casing. It is to keep the valve rotor from moving forward when it the valve lever is depressed. I have saved many clients the necessity of having their valves replated using this method and it (again, if done correctly), works very well. I might add that the wear that occurs in the rear bearing (that causes the Bb horn to leak before the F does-as several people have noticed), is basically also a result of the forward movement described above. I hope this helps to clear this up. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky che ckbook?
In a message dated 1/9/06 12:20:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have saved many clients the necessity of having their valves replated using this method and it (again, if done correctly), works very well. I would like to add to this post that this process is not one of just shrinking the bearings.It involves shrinking the bearings and refitting the upper bearing plate. It is not a new one. or one that I developed myself. Carl geyer used it frequently, and I learned it from him while I was apprenticing with him in the late 60's and early 70's. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago(ret). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Signs of leaky valves?
In a message dated 1/6/06 5:22:51 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From the player's viewpoint, what are the signs and symptoms suggestive of valves that are leaking? Are there some tests that can be done at home to confirm one's suspicions prior to taking the horn to a repair technician-artist? Thanks, Linda Hello Linda, From the players viewpoint valve leakage can cause the upper harmonics to go flat, difficulties with intonation, difficulties with clean articulation, and an indistinct feeling as to where the centers of the notes are. The sound also loses resonance and becomes unclear as the valves lose compression and begin to leak The general feeling is that you are having to overwork to get good efficent results. The danger is that asthe leakage develops over a perion of time and the player unconciously adjusts to it without being aware of why they are having to work harder. One fast way to initially check for valve leakage is to (making sure that your slides are well greased before you do this) pull a slide out about 1 1/2 inches and the push it back in. Immediately push down the appropriate valve lever. You should hear a distinct pop when you depress the valve. This type of test is basically a superficial test and is not totally reliable as a diagnostic tool, but will give you a first impression as to whether your valves are leaking. Now you can begin with more serious testing. The first thing to check when testing to see whether your valves leak, is to check for end play in the valve bearings. End play is movement that can occur both vertically and / or horizontally. Hold your valve by the rear bumper shaft and move it vertically back and forth to see if there is any play in the valve. End play will show up as movement- however slight. Check each valve individually and then repeat the process checking for horizontal movement. Again, check all of the valves. If there is movement either way, this could indicate that the bearings are worn. Or that the bearing top plates are not seated correctly. Check the top bearing plates and if they are not seated flush with the valve casing, carefully tap them down so they are flush with the casings, then check for movement once the plates are correctly seated. Bearing play will cause valve leakage, but does not necessarily mean that the valves need to be replated. It can just mean that the bearings are worn and need to be tightened. Or that there is corrosion in the valves. The next step in checking your valves is to buy some heavy woodwind key oil. I have found that Buffet key oil is best. Some manufactures package valve oil as key oil and this is too thin for our next procedure. Once you have warmed up, find a quiet place and play some passages on your horn that are tricky. Examples of good passages to play are: For high register: Ravel Piano Concerto solo Bruckner 4th opening Mozart G minor symphony Beethoven 7th Symphony Beethoven 6th solos These passages are more difficult to play if you have valve leakage because the leakage causes the overtones to be flat and the player experiences this as the notes being harder to play and more uncertain as to obtaining a nice free, resonant entrance. This generally tends to make the player use too much effort in production. Then try a few low register passages such as: Beethoven Fidelio 2nd horn both the horn 5ths and the solo Mussorgsky pictures - the first solo for 1st horn Wagner- 8th horn opening to Rheingold These passages are more difficult to play if you have valve leakage because the pitch centers are indistinct, articulation is difficult, and intonation is poor. Once again, this can lead the player to over control in their attempt to perform the passages correctly. When you are playing these passages pay close attention to the amount of work it takes to play them. Pay careful attention to the intonation and whether or not the notes feel centered and that the tone is resonant. Immediately after you have done this, put some of the woodwind key oil directly into the valves (4or 5 drops into each slide tube though the outer slide tubes). Make sure that you put it into all of the valves. The purpose of this it to use the heavy oil to artificially tighten up the valves to remove any leakage. This heavy oil will most likely make your valves slower-hopefully anyway. If your valves do not slow down with the heavy oil in them, then there is a good likelihood that there is valve wear. Now replay all of the passages in the same order and as similar to how you played them the first time and see if you notice a difference in how your horn responds. Is the sound clearer and more resonant? Do the notes feel more centered? Is the intonation better? Is the articulation easier? Is it less work to play these passages? Is it easier to play soft? When you have finished with this experiment you will have to remove the heavy oil. Use some regular valve oil. I
Re: [Hornlist] Signs of leaky valves?
In a message dated 1/6/06 5:22:51 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From the player's viewpoint, what are the signs and symptoms suggestive of valves that are leaking? Are there some tests that can be done at home to confirm one's suspicions prior to taking the horn to a repair technician-artist? Thanks, Linda My last post had a mistake in the typing. here it is corrected. sorry for that. Hello Linda, From the players viewpoint valve leakage can cause the upper harmonics to go flat, difficulties with intonation, difficulties with clean articulation, and an indistinct feeling as to where the centers of the notes are. The sound also loses resonance and becomes unclear as the valves lose compression and begin to leak The general feeling is that you are having to overwork to get good efficent results. The danger is that as the leakage develops over a perion of time, the player unconciously adjusts to it without being aware of why they are having to work harder, and bad habits can develop. It is always important to take good care of your valves to avoid unnecessary wear. One fast way to initially check for valve leakage is to (making sure that your slides are well greased before you do this) pull a slide out about 1 1/2 inches and the push it back in. Immediately push down the appropriate valve lever. You should hear a distinct pop when you depress the valve. This type of test is basically a superficial test and is not totally reliable as a diagnostic tool, but will give you a first impression as to whether your valves are leaking. Now you can begin with more serious testing. The first thing to check when testing to see whether your valves leak, is to check for end play in the valve bearings. End play is movement that can occur both vertically and / or horizontally. Hold your valve by the rear bumper shaft and move it vertically back and forth to see if there is any play in the valve. End play will show up as movement- however slight. Check each valve individually and then repeat the process checking for horizontal movement. Again, check all of the valves. If there is movement either way, this could indicate that the bearings are worn. Or that the bearing top plates are not seated correctly. Check the top bearing plates and if they are not seated flush with the valve casing, carefully tap them down so they are flush with the casings, then check for movement once the plates are correctly seated. Bearing play will cause valve leakage, but does not necessarily mean that the valves need to be replated. It can just mean that the bearings are worn and need to be tightened. Or that there is corrosion in the valves. The next step in checking your valves is to buy some heavy woodwind key oil. I have found that Buffet key oil is best. Some manufactures package valve oil as key oil and this is too thin for our next procedure. Once you have warmed up, find a quiet place and play some passages on your horn that are tricky. Examples of good passages to play are: For high register: Ravel Piano Concerto solo Bruckner 4th opening Mozart G minor symphony Beethoven 7th Symphony Beethoven 6th solos These passages are more difficult to play if you have valve leakage because the leakage causes the overtones to be flat and the player experiences this as the notes being harder to play and more uncertain as to obtaining a nice free, resonant entrance. This generally tends to make the player use too much effort in production. Then try a few low register passages such as: Beethoven Fidelio 2nd horn both the horn 5ths and the solo Mussorgsky pictures - the first solo for 1st horn Wagner- 8th horn opening to Rheingold These passages are more difficult to play if you have valve leakage because the pitch centers are indistinct, articulation is difficult, and intonation is poor. Once again, this can lead the player to over control in their attempt to perform the passages correctly. When you are playing these passages pay close attention to the amount of work it takes to play them. Pay careful attention to the intonation and whether or not the notes feel centered and that the tone is resonant. Immediately after you have done this, put some of the woodwind key oil directly into the valves (4or 5 drops into each slide tube though the outer slide tubes). Make sure that you put it into all of the valves. The purpose of this it to use the heavy oil to artificially tighten up the valves to remove any leakage. This heavy oil will most likely make your valves slower-hopefully anyway. If your valves do not slow down with the heavy oil in them, then there is a good likelihood that there is valve wear. Now replay all of the passages in the same order and as similar to how you played them the first time and see if you notice a difference in how your horn responds. Is the sound clearer and more resonant? Do the notes feel more centered? Is the intonation better? Is the articulation easier? Is it less work to play
Re: [Hornlist] Signs of leaky valves?
In a message dated 1/7/06 12:54:44 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A leak somewhere will usually cause a buzz somewhere on a certain pitch, right? Hi William, I do not believe that this is true in relation to valve leakage- or even other leakage sometimes- such as solder breaks in tube connections. Leakage in the valves will cause some deterioration in the sound quality (generally as a lack of resonance-see my original post) or the intonation and response, but not a buzz. The problems caused by valve leaking can go unnoticed by many players because the changes in the way the instrument reacts because of the leakage can be very subtle. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Signs of leaky valves?
In a message dated 1/7/06 12:34:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Hi Paul. You took the words right out of my mouth. I would (if I might be presumtuous) add three points to your fine and comprehensive piece: 1. Another sign of leakage is the drop in pitch of the Bb horn in relation to the F. This is caused by the fact that the Bb horn wears out faster. 2. The so called pop test is pretty much useless for evaluating valve tightness. It relys on several misconceptions, eg., that the sides of the rotor and casing are straight and concentric and seal equally in all directions. All the pop tells you is the relative tightness of an air circuit that is never used. The only accurate test is one using a static air pressure gage to measure the leakage in the actual air path. 3. Assuming the bearing plate is seated all the way down and we're talking about end play of less than .010 or so (that's really a lot), the ability of the rotor to move vertically is not a significant cause of leakage and removing the end-pay will not tighten the air seal to any noticable extent. I think the most important thing to remember about valve tightness is that, assuming the valves were tight when new, the primary cause of deterioration is not mechanical but chemical, and is almost entirely preventable. Valve that have been oiled on a regular basis have a service life of twenty years or more. Bob Osmun: Hi Bob, Thanks for your comments to my post. I wanted to respond to your additional comments to my post. 2. The only accurate test is one using a static air pressure gage to measure the leakage in the actual air path. This is a very accurate way to measure air leakage from the scientific viewpoint. But as you know, most of the players out there do not have this equipment. I do believe, though, that sensitive players can easily discern leakage by the way their horn responds -- without this equipment . 3.I think the most important thing to remember about valve tightness is that, assuming the valves were tight when new, the primary cause of deterioration is not mechanical but chemical, and is almost entirely preventable. Valve that have been oiled on a regular basis have a service life of twenty years or more. I agree that valve leakage is very preventable- assuming that the valves are built within good tolerances when they are made. Unfortunately this is not the case with several manufacturers, and if there is sloppiness in the initial product, mechanical wear can begin in a very short time. 3. Assuming the bearing plate is seated all the way down and we're talking about end play of less than .010 or so (that's really a lot), the ability of the rotor to move vertically is not a significant cause of leakage and removing the end-pay will not tighten the air seal to any noticable extent. This is a debateable point because of the fine line between when the valve is working properly and when it comes to the point of where it starts to leak. Vertical play is one of the causes of excessive wear in the valves and should be addressed and corrected whenever occurs. It is also one of the major causes of valve sticking. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret.) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Signs of leaky valves?
In a message dated 1/7/06 2:09:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well it's happened on my horn due to a minor solder break and it's happened on other horns due to small leakages that pop up from time to time in certain places. Unless my ears were deceiving me? I heard from both cases a small sharp buzz. -William Hello William, My post was basically about valve leakage, not solder connections. Notice that I did say-- I do not believe that this is true in relation to valve leakage- or even other leakage sometimes- such as solder breaks in tube connections. What I mean by saying sometimes ,is that sometimes this type of other leakage can cause a buzz and sometimes it does not cause a buzz. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Bach b1102
In a message dated 12/23/05 5:22:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: their student instruments usually play as well or better than their custom, hand made horns of the same design. Yamaha's Custom Series (800 models) included the following: Model 861- a Geyer style instrument 862- a revised Kruspe style instrument 863- a Schmidt style instrument 867- a Knopf style instrument These horns were handmade and they were discontinued after the mid 1990s. There were no student models of these horns. There were some other Yamaha models that were somewhat similar to these models, but the Custom horns were unique of the Yamaha models. Also, in regard to this discussion, advertising is just advertising and just because a maker labels their instrument a pro level horn does not in fact make it one. Especially if your definition of a pro horn is one that is well received and used by many professional performers. If all of the manufacturers had their acts together, their so called pro level horns would be the best horns they produced. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. Some manufactures try to avoid certain terminology in their advertising that they think might limit their sales. That is why we see few student model instruments and few, if any,small bells. Some even avoid providing information as to who made their horn and what country the instrument was made in. We will see even more of this in the future. The history of horn advertising has had too many examples of people endorsing certain horns and not using them (or in some cases, using highly customized versions of the horn to be able to play on it). My point here is that horn advertising is just like other advertising and I think we all have to take it as such. I had a great experience in the 70's with manufacturer BS. I was playing extra with the CSO and the Midwest Band Convention was going on only three blocks from the hall. Frank Brouk and I walked over to see the displays after a rehearsal and when we got to a certain manufacturers booth, Frank picked up their new double horn and started to try it. Their rep. Immediately came over and started to tell him about how good it was. Brouk (who had a fantastic sense of humor) asked him a few questions about the horn and the rep. then told us that this model horn was so good, that the company had given one to each member of the CSO and they liked them so much they were all playing on one. Frank's response was one of Really? That's fantastic! It must be a really great horn. The rep. went on to assure us that this horn was IT! We should both buy one. Frank thanked him and started to walk away from the booth (with the horn still with him), The rep. cleared his throat a few times as Frank got further away from the booth with the horn, and then he finally said, Sir, I believe that's our horn. Frank turned around and smiled at him and said Oh, I 'm sorry, I thought I could keep it since I play with the CSO and did not get mine yet. Boy, was that rep embarrassed !! Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Bach b1102
In a message dated 12/23/05 10:17:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There were/are at least 3 more Yamaha Custom horn models: Klaus, Yamaha did not have equal worldwide availability on all of their Custom models. Some were more easily available in Japan and Europe than in the US. The four I listed were the most available in the US. The others were difficult to obtain. Paul ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/10/05 6:48:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You wonder what goes through the minds of the producers. David and all, Unfortunately, one of the big concerns of producers today (as I have witnessed on many recording sessions), is that the cost of recording (studio time, musicians fees, technicians fees, and all of the related expenses) has made their job one of trying to beat the clock. Recording fees for everyone involved have really skyrocketed and its almost like some of the producers have little cash registers in their heads keeping count of how much money the whole thing is costing and rushing through many important steps (like microphone set up). This has not helped produce very good results in way too many cases. Then, of course there are also those producers who are so incompetent that they couldn't produce a good 60 second spot if they had two weeks to put it together. :) Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/10/05 6:48:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You wonder what goes through the minds of the producers. David and all, Unfortunately, one of the big concerns of producers today (as I have witnessed on many recording sessions), is that the cost of recording (studio time, musicians fees, technicians fees, and all of the related expenses) has made their job one of trying to beat the clock. Recording fees for everyone involved have really skyrocketed and its almost like some of the producers have little cash registers in their heads keeping count of how much money the whole thing is costing and rushing through many important steps (like microphone set up). This has not helped produce very good results in way too many cases. Then, of course there are also those producers who are so incompetent that they couldn't produce a good 60 second spot if they had two weeks to put it together. :) Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
In a message dated 10/10/05 2:14:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the main problems for recordings is the feed-back, so to say the SALE. As long as pop music could pay for classical recordings, the world was in good order, Hi Hans, I was refering mostly to commercial recordings- studio recordings -jingles -and popular cd's. You are right about the other. The classical recording situation is much more complicated with the loss of the market for it . And yes, I also agree with you. The GOLDEN YEARS are history. In a conversation we had yesterday, Vince deRosa said basically the same thing-the good old days are over. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] PBS (NHR) (was Lincoln Center Concert)
In a message dated 6/16/05 11:53:25 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Let's take this discussion off the list please. Why? Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] PBS (NHR) (was Lincoln Center Concert)
In a message dated 6/16/05 12:52:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The purpose of the Horn Discussion Group is to provide a forum for electronic conversation about all things relating to the horn's playing technique, repertoire, ensembles, personalities, and so on. You might want to consider that funding for the NEA is also part of this package that is being threatened with cancellation. The politics of PBS and NPR are definitly not something to argue over here, however the funding of the NEA is something of importance to most, if not all, working hornplayers. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] For the repairpeople
In a message dated 6/14/05 3:23:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How do you do this? Hi Howard, The hole for the string is drilled through the middle of the length of the push /piston and is smaller than the smallest diameter of the push /piston, therefore no leak occurs at any time. Here is a poorly done diagram of the inside push/piston withthe hole for the string drilled in it. It was done with my computer keyboard, so it is a general idea . __ __ _I I___I I I I I__I- ___ Hole drilled for string Iinside push/piston I I_ I I_I ^ II I cut out section for water to exit I hope this helps explain where the hole goes, and why there is no leak. I prefer Amado water keys because I believe there is less acoustical interference with them. This is a highly personal opinion and one which has little basis in fact, unless you talk to the Amado people and many trumpet players . I also prefer the smaller hole in the leadpipe, but I am sure that there are just as many players or repair people who believe that there is no difference. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] For the repairpeople
In a message dated 6/14/05 3:23:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How do you do this Howard, as I expected might happen, when I sent the posting, the formatting was moved by AOL and the lines came out in the wrong places. I hope you can get the general idea though. There is no hole through the amado key plunger for the water to exit . There is a short lathed out section around the center of the plunger for the water to exit which leaves a solid center though what I call the push/piston . The string hole is drilled through this solid section. Paul ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] For the repairpeople
In a message dated 6/14/05 3:23:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How do you do this? Howard, If this diagram and explanation doesn't make sense, send me your phone # and I will fax you a drawing of it. Paul ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] For the repairpeople
In a message dated 6/14/05 11:39:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm sorry I caused suck a spit valve ruckus. Aleks, Don't be sorry, that's what we are here for ! Paul ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] For the repairpeople
Hello Aleks, Yes, it is possible to change the type of water key from the lever type to the Amado type. The success of this repair depends on the size of the hole drilled for the nipple of the lever type key. There has to be enough surface for the amado key to be well soldered on for the conversion to be successful. Translated-so it doesn't fall off! Whoever does the conversion should be careful to place the Amado key barrel hole in the center of the existing hole, thereby supporting the key equally on all sides to give it enough strength to stay soldered. I have done this conversion many times and never had one fall off. I did it to my Paxman descant 15 years ago and it is still solidly on the horn. I prefer the Amado keys to any lever type key. I am sure Randy Ulmer in NYC could do this for you without any problems. I hope this helps, Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] For the repairpeople
Concerning Aleks question-- As to statements that the hole is generally too big for this to work, one must check the size of the hole before judging the size without seeing it. Disassemble the lever style key and look at the size of the hole. Compare it to the hole in the barrel of the Amado water key. The rest has been discussed. It is also possible to drill a hole through the middle of the piston of the Amado water key and thread a string through it to use with your left hand thumb- just like the Holton water keys. Paul Navarro Custom horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] What to watch out for on ebay
In a message dated 5/8/05 2:36:55 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with everything you say. And I also hear your frustration because there's nothing you can do to level the playing field, and you find yourself backed up against your own integrity. The important question is, exactly how does this misrepresentation affect your business. Bill, Actually, this misrepresentation does not affect my business at all. I am not frustrated about, or do I feel the need to level the playing field, nor do I find myself backed up against my own integrity. I work primarily with professionals who would not be likely to be involved with a sale like this. As far as leveling the playing field, I am not interested in rebuilding horns to resell and I have absolutely no question about the quality of our work. I also do not feel backed up against my own integrity. We each choose the level of our integrity and we live by it. I chose to point the details of this one sale to the list, not because it offended me as a horn craftsman, but because it offended me as a performer and a teacher. When you state in your e-mail- What I don't see is why they are compelled to lie in the first place. Maybe that's the real tragedy, that society has slipped to the point where people don't recognize truth from fiction. Even if the truth isn't damaging, make up a lie anyway. Here you are getting to the sense of why I hate this type of behavior and wanted to expose it to the list. This is not the first sale of its type from this seller. I hate seeing people being deceived by companies or individuals like this. E bay can be the source of many good high quality items, but as I originally stated it is important to be watchful and careful. I do not feel the need to discuss the details of this thread any more . The information is out there and anyone who reads it can respond appropiately for themselves. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] What to watch out for on ebay
Since my last posting on this subject, I have changed my mind about continuing this thread and thought it might be helpful to take a different approach to this discussion in the possibility that some information might help some players be more discerning about what might have to be done to restore a badly damaged horn and knowing what to avoid when purchasing a used instrument. With the instrument that was the center of this discussion, the horn has, from the original sellers description, been trashed as far as the bell is concerned. His pictures show that the mouthpipe has been bent and his write up leaves to our imagination the condition of the valves and slides. I always have a questioning reaction to an e-bay sellers description all of the slides and valves move freely in a write up. Are the slides and valves moving freely because they work well ? Or because the slides are loose and the valves are worn and need to be rebuilt? Here are some brief descriptions of what might be done to correct some of the problems with the horn. I say brief because it would be too difficult and too time consuming to go into great detail about the details of such work. If the slides need to be tightened, then do they need to be expanded in order to be tightened ? and if so, how much? This expansion can alter the inside bore of much of the cylindrical section of an instrument and can cause the instrument's response to be stuffy feeling.. Would it be better to replace and refit the loose slide tubing ? and if so, can it be done with tubing of the compatable weight, thickness, metal density, and bore size? This is one reason some repair techs. buy old instruments. There is always the possibility, for example, that an old beat up Kruspe single F horn will have some unworn usauble parts on it -like the 3rd valve slide tubes. To adequately straigthen the mouthpipe, is it necessary to remove the outer protective sleeve and replace it with a new one-or an undamaged one from a like instrument? Can the mouthpipe be straigthened in a way that retains the original taper?-or can that taper be recreated if necessary? Has the mouthpipes ventura or the negative taper for the mouthpiece been altered ? Is it possible to correct these and return them to the original specifications? The stress created from the mouthpipe being bent must also be removed from the mouthpipe and the horn. Of course, it is always possible to replace the mouthpipe with another Elkhart pipe in excellent condition, if one is available -or to use a new UMI Conn mouthpipe. If a UMI mouthpipe is installed, should it still be represented as an Elkhart 8D? or should a write up state that the original mouthpipe was replaced? The dents in the bell tail could be removed and smoothed out. Then the bell could be cut and ringsinstalled and a new bell flare added. This could be done with a new UMI flare, any aftermarket flare, a chinese flare, or an original flare in excellent condition from another Elkhart 8D ( very difficult to find in excellent or even good condition in my experience). If this were done, I would as a buyer expect to be informed as to what kind of a flare had been installed. The valves can be completely rebuilt -or the rotors replaced with new rotors. To completely rebuild the valves would require first smoothing the insides of the casing walls . Often this part of the procedure is left out and can lead to premature wear and the need for more valve work. Next, it is necessary to plate the original rotors with copper and nickel to build up the fit and then finally, hand lap them to the desired fitting ,so that the valve clearance within the casing is the same for the entire length of the rotor and for each valve. Attention must also be paid to making sure that the bearings are also refitted so they have no play. Valves rarely show the same amount of wear within an individual horn, so the amount of plating and fitting each valve needs must be observed and addressed. Some players like the final air seal to be very tight and some do not. When I was apprenticing with Geyer, he always wanted just a very little air leakage in the valves to help create a nice legato feel to the horn and to help create what he called the Gravy in the sound. In today's horn world, this concept of slightly leaky valves can be a cont roversial subject. Removing dents and the smoothing of the metal and refinishing it for lacquering, all too frequently, is accomplished by sanding the metal smooth after the dents have been basically removed. This can leads to thin spots and uneveness in the metal wall thickness which can affect the response in various areas of the overtone patterns. There are dent machines available, and in use, that help smooth out even the worst of dents and leave a very nice looking result in a short period of time, however much damage to the metal intergrity and the
[Hornlist] What to watch out for on ebay
Fellow colleagues, Here is a great example of why to be careful when using ebay. Check out item # 7321051354 Conn 8D read the write up carefully and then go to their feedback and check out the item they bought #7310468415 Conn 8D Read their comments about the bell, and then look closely at the engraving, it is close, but not the same as on a C series 8D. They make it sound like they found it in excellent condition--exceptionally well cared for sharp engraving--verses the original description when they bought it--bell completely shot. Although the sellers state that the horn is totally restored, their implication is that the horn is all original and that the bell is original. Draw your own conclusions about this. This is an example of what to be careful of when buying a horn on ebay Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] What to watch out for on ebay
In a message dated 5/7/05 5:55:42 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would not enjoy being fooled in this way, but if the horn plays well, where is the harm? I would feel more embarrassment, than harm. I guess I don't much care what they tell me as long as I have recourse to evaluate the end result. Bill, If the horn plays well, then there should be no need to misrepresent the details. Would you not care if you bought a car and were told that it was exceptionally well cared for and was completely original, but the reality was that it had been wrecked, rebuilt, and repaired with new parts installed that were not really original and then repainted? There are laws against that, even though it is frequently done by unscrupulous dealers. Our shop works primarily with professional players and we service and customize 8D's for many of the countries finest performers. Most professional 8D players are very savvy to the differences between the different number and letter series horns. Most of them prefer buying a horn that has not been restored and is completely original, to a horn that has been completely restored. That way they know the exact condition of the horn they are buying. They can always have the work done that is necessary after the purchase. E series horns have different characteristics than H series which have different characteristics than K and so on for all of the different series-especially the pre letter series. These are both playing AND structural characteristics as to tapers and metal thickness. Yes, parts can be interchanged and different characteristics can be created making some horns better, and some not quite as good as they were originally. My main objection to this type of advertising is that I believe that a buyer should be informed by the seller what has been done to the horn in restoring it. If the seller had to replace the bell or the bell flare or the mouthpipe, say so. Some (thankfully few) shops do a chop shop repair where dents are basically removed and then sanded out. Pitting is sanded out. Then the metal is buffed to a nice finish and lacquered. We have even seen dents that have been fillled with bondo and then painted over. Damaged parts are replaced with new parts. These shops can end up with a horn that looks great, and plays O.K., but has many thin places and very little life left in the metal. As a buyer wouldn't you rather know about this? Granted there are some players who are not familiar enough with the model or experienced enough to tell the difference, but that does not mean that the seller does not have a responsibility to disclose what has been done to the horn to restore it. Yes, If there is a trial period, then whoever buys it can decide whether or not it is worth the price, but sometimes a seller may choose not to disclose this information because they know that a badly damaged horn that has been restored will probably not command as high of a selling price as an all original horn . I also have seen few horns where the horn needed extensive rebuilding with a bell that was trashed- with cracks and splits and patches, and that needed a complete valve rebuilding that would come under the qualification of exceptionally well cared for. I believe that It is basically a question of the sellers integrity to the buyer. Paul Navarro ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ebay 8D
In a message dated 3/28/05 7:40:20 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe the R series was the last letter series and, TTBOMK, they were made in both Indiana and Texas. I have an unaltered R horn that has a Texas bell and tapered Elkhart rotors. The R series horns ,regardless of wherever the parts were made, were assembled very incompetently in Texas. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] 8D on EBAY
Hello All- In support of what Ken Pope has written, the sellers of this instrument have been informed that the bell is not an Elkhart bell and that they are advertising the horn as an Elkhart horn. Their answer is thank you for the information. This borders very closely as fraudulent advertising. If you completely restore an Elkhart 8d and replace the original bell with an Eastlake bell, you then no longer have an Elkhart 8d. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ebay 8D
In a message dated 3/28/05 11:59:33 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And what about that serial number (R35011, circa 1972)? I thought the older Elkhart 8D's only went up to the N series R series are Texas horns. As to the mechanical Bb lever, if you were to buy several older beat up Elkhart horns and combine the parts, you might end up with a mechanical Bb lever on your Texas series horn with a Eastlake bell. I am guessing that we will probably see a C series horn with a new bell on Ebay soon. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Fwd: [Hornlist] Re: fixed bell and airlines
---BeginMessage--- To add a bit more confusion to the subject, I have had many different responses to carrying my horn on board, but one was probably the most honest. After having to buy an extra seat for my horn on a flight to a concert series in Banff that I was playing, I finally got fed up with all of the regulations that I had encountered and decided to try to go to the source of who knew what. I spent about 5 hours one day on the phone with United staff people (read flunkies) until I frustrated one individual to the point that she gave me the phone number of their Vice President of International Baggage. When I finally got through to this person she asked me how I had obtained her number? I explained to her that I had coerced it out of one of their staff after much persistence. She then said that since I had made it that far, she would give me the information I was looking for and be very honest about it but that I probably wouldn't be very happy about it. She said that whether or not I was able to carry on my horn most likely depended on the attitude of the last person (usually a flight attendant) that I would encounter before I boarded the plane. If that person was in a good mood and feeling in a helpful mode, I would probably get the horn on. If the person was feeling harassed and having problems getting people on the plane, it would take some gentle (or more) persuasion. If that person was having a bad day, forget it. Her comments have proven to be quite on track. So my advice is to keep your horn as much out of sight as possible -- for example, if you are with someone at the ticket counter who is with you but not going on the flight, they keep the horn while you are checking in. If you can make it to the boarding platform with your horn, it is generally more of a problem for them to send you back to baggage counter than it is to stow it inside the plane. I have even had a stewardess put my horn in her own personal carry on space using this technique. I know other players who have used this method and it generally works out O.K. Paul Navarro ---End Message--- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] My first Acid cleaning of valves
Just for the record with all of this talk about acid bathing valve rotors, if you are not diluting the acid, you are not doing it correctly. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] odd ball mouthpiece
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Re: [Hornlist] Mystery Horn
The B and S factory in East Germany (the company that used to make Hoyers) also made an Alex 103 copy . ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: Musicality
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Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
In a message dated 10/12/04 2:59:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would it be better to oil through a male tube? Using this manner of oiling, it is possible to get extraneous slide grease or other matter into the valves from the crook attached to the slide tube-especially if there is any corrosion in the slide crook. I have found for my own use, and I always recommend to my clients that they find an eyedropper bottle to use. First remove the slide and with a few drops of oil in the dropper, place it all of the way into the outer slide tube, then squirt the oil directly onto the rotor. This method seems to avoid the problems you are discussing. Paul Navarro ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Bach Mouthpiece.
Wendel , A 7s Bach has their symphonic backbore( which is a little bigger than the normal 7). ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mouthpieces
Since I have received a few private emails concerning information about the book on mouthpieces that I mentioned in my earlier post on mouthpieces, here is the information that I have: Title:Understanding the Mouthpiece Authors: John and Phyllis Stork Publisher: Editions Bim CH-1630 Bulle Switzerland Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mouthpieces
One of the most important decisions that the player has to make when choosing a mouthpiece is what inner diameter(I.D.) fits your musculature. Lip size and shape are important considerations in determining this. The upper rim of the mouthpiece must be above the vibrating surface of the lip and NOT on this surface in order to achieve the greatest amount of efficiency and freedom for the lip to vibrate. If the rim is directly on top of the vibrating surface, then the player will have to blow harder in order to get the lips to vibrate. Once you find a comfortable inside diameter, you can have a rim made and try different cups or try mouthpieces with that I.D., to see what helps you achieve your artistic goals. One source of excellent information is the small book THE MOUTHPIECE written by John and Phyllis Stork. It used to be available from Stork. It may still be. The player who was switching between the Schilke 30 and 31B was actually switching inside diameter sizes and this can cause problems. By using one inside diameter and becoming familiar with it, you allow your embouchure to learn what to do within that rim's I.D. because it can rely on the sameness of the rim. The familiar becomes instinctual and reliable -- allowing you to concentrate more on musical production. When you switch between mouthpieces with different I.D.'s ,you take the risk of confusing your muscles and having to think about aspects of what you are doing that could have become instinctual -- then you may have to focus more on production than the music. Getting the help of a qualified mouthpiece maker can save you much time and much money. John Stork Tom Greer Scott Laskey Greg Black These are all competent mouthpiece makers and while each player may have their favorite, you certainly will get more help and guidance from one of them then from your local music store or mindless Internet purchases. Paul Navarro custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
In a message dated 9/16/04 4:22:21 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Couldn't our practice time be better spent on other facets of the endeavor? It all depends on how you practice scales. If you mindlessly run through them, then playing them is not to a useful purpose. However, since we are supposedly musical creators each time we play, if you put each scale into a musical context and create some type of musical challenge with it , then scales become helpful creative, difficult(if your challenges are), and fun. Paul Navarro ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 21, Issues 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, etc.........
In a message dated 9/12/04 10:01:12 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Exclusive Bundy, Carl Fischer, Olds Ambassador, Sansone and Conn Artist Who Does Not Get His Horns For Free Dear Sir: A representative from our company recently heard your performance with the NJ Turnpike Authority Drum and Bugle Corps, The Phantom Lane Changers What a shame that an artist of your stature has to purchase his own instruments. Our company would like to offer you an Artist Clinician position and (of course) a free horn if you would consider performing on and sponsoring our newly designed TONE FREE MODEL quadruple horn. It is superbly made by well trained craftsman from Manchu Pichu who have been constructing horns for over five centuries and who guarantee it for the life of your career. A recent review of the horn appeared in the Amazonian Horn Club's latest digest. The reviewer found the horn to be unbelievable in all respects adding, if I had such a horn, I would never have another worry about the direction of my career Hoping you will accept our offer, all we require is a money order to secure your flight to Manchu Pichu for presentation of the horn and pictures for our brochure (approx. $4000 US). Hoping for your fast and enthusiastic response, we remain sincerely in awe of your qualifications, the guys from M. P. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
It is probably important to note here that most insurance policies do not cover damage caused to your horn out of stupidity. Any reference to some postings on this subject are not co- incidental. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/10/04 7:16:25 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So the question is has anyone tried an alcohol rinse (in addition to general cleaning I suppose) and would it be of any help in routine cleaning?? Robert, The cleaning of the valves and slides with alcohol before storing a horn that I mentioned was not to actually clean the horn(as in an ultrasound or acid bath cleaning) , but basically to degrease it so the grease and oil would not gum or harden over time. Paul Navarro ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
In a message dated 9/8/04 9:02:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: and put one last coat of quality oil before storage. No, a final last coat of quality oil is not necessary or desirable. The oil will congeal and gum up and make slides and valves hard to move or to freeze. It is better to clean all of the slides off with alcohol(91%), and to wash out the valves and casings with alcohol. I have stored horns for over 5 years using this method and when I unpack them, all of the valves and slides work without any problems. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] A Do-It-Yourself Screwbell How-To...
jrc in SC It shouldn't be too expensive to make a do it yourself screw bell conversion kit. I would only cost about $1000. $100 for the ring $ 50 for the instructions $ 100 for the necessary tools and supplies( unless you already have an adequate torch) $ 750 for a qualified repair tech to supply a new bell and new ring and to correct what ever other damage you incur to your horn by trying to do this without knowing what you are doing. :) Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] New horns on Ebay for $125?!
I hope more people-both players and repair techs- will come out as Paul Mansur has when he called these horns Chinese junk. I,unfortunately, have had the opportunity to work on several of these horns and completely agree with his evaluation. I have not found even one aspect of these horns that is of acceptable quality. We no longer will work on them, because it is not worth our time or the customers money. Some of the major American musical instrument manufacturers are calling these instruments ISOs---INSTRUMENT SIMILAR OBJECTS-- and the description fits. As to the ads for these horns on eBay, many of the ads claim that the horns are Band Director Approved. I have a really hard time believing that any serious band director could recommend these instruments to his students. One seller claims that the horns are recommended by the MENC. I also have a hard time believing that one. It is too bad that there is not a way to put a stop to those claims, since I am sure they help persuade some unknowing buyers to purchase these instruments. Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] New horns on Ebay for $125?!
In a message dated 8/22/04 9:30:11 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For example, First Act instruments have a warranty - a two year warranty! David, I was suprised at part of your response. WHAT GOOD IS A TWO YEAR WARRANTY IF THE HORN DOES NOT PLAY WELL??? Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
