[Hornlist] Chinese instruments
Finally a topic for a Hong Kong-based business school professor. Quality brass instruments will come out of China when either a Chinese producer hires international experts to design the instruments, set up production, and run the factory, or international experts invest in facilities and the effort to get the quality. Pearl River Piano has done the former, claims to have about a 10% share of the US market for pianos (units), produces for the Yamaha brand, and has produced concert pianos endorsed by the late Lazar Berman among others. Pianos are not horns, but note that about two hours from Hong Kong is an MTU (German) owned jet engine overhaul facility that takes apart and rebuilds engines to tolerances horn makers could only dream of. The key is combining foreign experts and management with Chinese labor. There are at least a dozen members of this list who, with the right conditions, could create a high quality horn production capability in China of staggering proportions. Any takers? Michael Enright, University of Hong Kong For info on China's development, see: Hoffmann and Enright, China Into the Future (Wiley 2008) and Enright, Scott, and Chang, Regional Powerhouse: The Pearl River Delta and the Rise of China (Wiley 2005) both available through www.amazon.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
Boy, I hate to jump into this thread, but I cannot help myself. Everyone so far has included a large helping of the facts in their posts, as well as some side order of opinions. The situation is complicated, and one cannot paint everyone with the same broad brush. I want to point out one fact, though. As far as importing goods, US Customs puts ALL the responsibility for the goods on the importer, not the exporter. Sure, the makers are complicit, but the importer of such goods bears all the responsibility from a legal standpoint. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited -Original Message- From: John Baumgart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Horn List' horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sat, 3 May 2008 11:56 am Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments No kidding. Also, I fail to see how facts can be bigoted. There is a difference between inexpensive stencil products and counterfeit products. Had you read my post, you'd realize my concern is with respect to counterfeits, not inexpensively outsourced manufactured goods. The fact is that regardless of where the demand lies for counterfeit goods, whether they electronics, instruments, clothes, movies, collectibles, Tiffany jewelry, or whatever else you can think of, nearly all of them come from China, not India, not Russia, not Mexico. While it is illegal to import and sell counterfeit goods in the US and most Western countries, there is no disincentive in China to making and exporting them, and Western trademark holders can expect no cooperation from Chinese law enforcement in preventing it. Ebay alone spends over $10 million per year trying to keep counterfeit items out of their auctions. Buyers who are specialists in what they are buying can usually tell bad from good, and often by the seller's location, but others are taken by fakes daily. John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Gross Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 8:48 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments What a hoot! No offense intended then the comment about such a viiew being bigotted. On 5/2/08, Jeremy Cucco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John- No offense intended, but that is a rather myopic view on the subject and quite biggoted against the Chinese to boot. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/brassartsunlim%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
No kidding. Also, I fail to see how facts can be bigoted. There is a difference between inexpensive stencil products and counterfeit products. Had you read my post, you'd realize my concern is with respect to counterfeits, not inexpensively outsourced manufactured goods. The fact is that regardless of where the demand lies for counterfeit goods, whether they electronics, instruments, clothes, movies, collectibles, Tiffany jewelry, or whatever else you can think of, nearly all of them come from China, not India, not Russia, not Mexico. While it is illegal to import and sell counterfeit goods in the US and most Western countries, there is no disincentive in China to making and exporting them, and Western trademark holders can expect no cooperation from Chinese law enforcement in preventing it. Ebay alone spends over $10 million per year trying to keep counterfeit items out of their auctions. Buyers who are specialists in what they are buying can usually tell bad from good, and often by the seller's location, but others are taken by fakes daily. John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Gross Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 8:48 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments What a hoot! No offense intended then the comment about such a viiew being bigotted. On 5/2/08, Jeremy Cucco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John- No offense intended, but that is a rather myopic view on the subject and quite biggoted against the Chinese to boot. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
For the record, I'm not optimistic about this situation. That was someone else. Yes, Chinese manufacturers may soon turn out acceptable school horns, but some will also turn out counterfeit name-brand horns, much as they do with other items. A seller on eBay will list what looks like an older 8D, complete with a legitimate serial number and Conn engravings, as well as some simulated wear. A well-intentioned buyer knowing not to buy a Selman or other well-known crap horn will buy this thinking it's an Elkhart 8D. Heck, even the forged serial number checks out. The buyer gets the horn and it plays sort of OK, and many will be none the wiser until it's time to get a repair done and it's nothing more than a high end Selman, Schmort, Corn, Alexnerdan, Yummyhan or what have you. Chinese counterfeiters know no bounds when it comes to screwing people. John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Warner Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:40 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments On 1 May 2008, at 11:20 pm, John Baumgart wrote: Speaking of Chinese made horns, Kit wrote: A couple of years in the future when the manufacturers learn what they're doing, these instruments may start to become quite acceptable. I agree. I'm one who's actually optimistic about the future of Chinese instruments. It's already happening with other brass instruments. Importers are demanding a high level of quality and instruments based on proven designs. One brand is advertising that they've had their lead pipes designed by a well known and respected custom instrument maker. The prices are rising with the quality but I've been told that it's still possible to get, for example, a trumpet that's _very_ similar to a Yamaha Xeno for approximately half the price. In the Brass Band world, Virtuosi in England are selling what to all intents and purposes are professional quality instruments at student prices. It's a growing area and there's no reason it can't happen with horns. I'd almost be willing to bet that right now, somewhere out there there is a very well built and good playing Han 8D or 103. All the best, Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/john.baumgart%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
-Original Message- From: John Baumgart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 6:42 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments For the record, I'm not optimistic about this situation. That was someone else. Yes, Chinese manufacturers may soon turn out acceptable school horns, but some will also turn out counterfeit name-brand horns, much as they do with other items. A seller on eBay will list what looks like an older 8D, complete with a legitimate serial number and Conn engravings, as well as some simulated wear. A well-intentioned buyer knowing not to buy a Selman or other well-known crap horn will buy this thinking it's an Elkhart 8D. Heck, even the forged serial number checks out. The buyer gets the horn and it plays sort of OK, and many will be none the wiser until it's time to get a repair done and it's nothing more than a high end Selman, Schmort, Corn, Alexnerdan, Yummyhan or what have you. Chinese counterfeiters know no bounds when it comes to screwing people. All counterfeiters know no bounds when it comes to screwing people. -S- John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] du] On Behalf Of Tom Warner Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:40 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments On 1 May 2008, at 11:20 pm, John Baumgart wrote: Speaking of Chinese made horns, Kit wrote: A couple of years in the future when the manufacturers learn what they're doing, these instruments may start to become quite acceptable. I agree. I'm one who's actually optimistic about the future of Chinese instruments. It's already happening with other brass instruments. Importers are demanding a high level of quality and instruments based on proven designs. One brand is advertising that they've had their lead pipes designed by a well known and respected custom instrument maker. The prices are rising with the quality but I've been told that it's still possible to get, for example, a trumpet that's _very_ similar to a Yamaha Xeno for approximately half the price. In the Brass Band world, Virtuosi in England are selling what to all intents and purposes are professional quality instruments at student prices. It's a growing area and there's no reason it can't happen with horns. I'd almost be willing to bet that right now, somewhere out there there is a very well built and good playing Han 8D or 103. All the best, Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/john.baumgart%4 0comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays computer.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1411 - Release Date: 5/2/2008 8:02 AM ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
John- No offense intended, but that is a rather myopic view on the subject and quite biggoted against the Chinese to boot. In general, it is Westerners behind the counterfeit products coming out of China. The Chinese get paid the same to do their work regardless of what name gets stamped on the final product or whose product theirs visually imitates. There are typically two (gross generalizations follow) types of products coming from China - those designed and manufactured by the Chinese and then sold to Westerners and rebranded for their own purposes (such as entry-level pro audio gear - eg. KEL microphones and SM Pro Audio gear) and then gear which is designed and labeled by Western companies and then manufactered by the Chinese. This is often where the trouble comes in - such as again in the case of pro audio Behringer - a company world renowned for ripping off others' designs and having cheaper, poor quality versions made by the Chinese for little money and even less quality. (However, on the flip side of the coin, some companies have outsourced to China with great results - such as Quad Loudspeakers and Mojave Audio.) In this case, I would comfortably assume that the Chinese companies are simply being told build this horn to this specification and then some western company (the one that is responsible for the design and sale to Westerners) slaps a similar appearing name and serial number on it. This is so common in the European and American marketplace, it's not even funny. I recently had an opportunity to speak via e-mail with a person who was inadvertently behind the creation (or build that is) of a fake/fraudulent replica of the venerable Shure SM57 microphone. He was not aware of the original 57 and since he doesn't have access to many Western websites, he wasn't aware that he was creating a fraud copy. Just some food for thought. Cheers, Jeremy -Original Message- From: John Baumgart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Horn List' horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: 5/2/08 6:41 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments For the record, I'm not optimistic about this situation. That was someone else. Yes, Chinese manufacturers may soon turn out acceptable school horns, but some will also turn out counterfeit name-brand horns, much as they do with other items. A seller on eBay will list what looks like an older 8D, complete with a legitimate serial number and Conn engravings, as well as some simulated wear. A well-intentioned buyer knowing not to buy a Selman or other well-known crap horn will buy this thinking it's an Elkhart 8D. Heck, even the forged serial number checks out. The buyer gets the horn and it plays sort of OK, and many will be none the wiser until it's time to get a repair done and it's nothing more than a high end Selman, Schmort, Corn, Alexnerdan, Yummyhan or what have you. Chinese counterfeiters know no bounds when it comes to screwing people. John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Warner Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:40 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments On 1 May 2008, at 11:20 pm, John Baumgart wrote: Speaking of Chinese made horns, Kit wrote: A couple of years in the future when the manufacturers learn what they're doing, these instruments may start to become quite acceptable. I agree. I'm one who's actually optimistic about the future of Chinese instruments. It's already happening with other brass instruments. Importers are demanding a high level of quality and instruments based on proven designs. One brand is advertising that they've had their lead pipes designed by a well known and respected custom instrument maker. The prices are rising with the quality but I've been told that it's still possible to get, for example, a trumpet that's _very_ similar to a Yamaha Xeno for approximately half the price. In the Brass Band world, Virtuosi in England are selling what to all intents and purposes are professional quality instruments at student prices. It's a growing area and there's no reason it can't happen with horns. I'd almost be willing to bet that right now, somewhere out there there is a very well built and good playing Han 8D or 103. All the best, Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/john.baumgart%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/jeremy%40sublymerecords.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
There are some very good violins being made in China these days. Nothing to compete with the Cremona masters, of course, but very respectable instruments that are hand made by master craftsmen. The best of them are not marketed as anything they are not. My guess is that Chinese horn makers will also gain in skill and reputation under their own names. They are catching up fast. David Lamb in Seattle ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
At 5:56 PM -0700 5/2/08, David Lamb wrote: There are some very good violins being made in China these days. Nothing to compete with the Cremona masters, of course, but very respectable instruments that are hand made by master craftsmen. The best of them are not marketed as anything they are not. My guess is that Chinese horn makers will also gain in skill and reputation under their own names. They are catching up fast. I did a bit of investigating a few months ago of Chinese string instruments. One importer mentions that all the instruments need new strings bridges, major adjustment, and many will have gluing to be done. The retail prices I've seen are about three times the dealer cost, which seems fair considering the work which must be done. Regards, Carlberg -- Carlberg Jones Skype - carlbergbmug Cornista - Orquesta Sinfónica de Aguascalientes Aguascalientes, Ags. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
What a hoot! No offense intended then the comment about such a viiew being bigotted. On 5/2/08, Jeremy Cucco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John- No offense intended, but that is a rather myopic view on the subject and quite biggoted against the Chinese to boot. In general, it is Westerners behind the counterfeit products coming out of China. The Chinese get paid the same to do their work regardless of what name gets stamped on the final product or whose product theirs visually imitates. There are typically two (gross generalizations follow) types of products coming from China - those designed and manufactured by the Chinese and then sold to Westerners and rebranded for their own purposes (such as entry-level pro audio gear - eg. KEL microphones and SM Pro Audio gear) and then gear which is designed and labeled by Western companies and then manufactered by the Chinese. This is often where the trouble comes in - such as again in the case of pro audio Behringer - a company world renowned for ripping off others' designs and having cheaper, poor quality versions made by the Chinese for little money and even less quality. (However, on the flip side of the coin, some companies have outsourced to China with great results - such as Quad Loudspeakers and Mojave Audio.) In this case, I would comfortably assume that the Chinese companies are simply being told build this horn to this specification and then some western company (the one that is responsible for the design and sale to Westerners) slaps a similar appearing name and serial number on it. This is so common in the European and American marketplace, it's not even funny. I recently had an opportunity to speak via e-mail with a person who was inadvertently behind the creation (or build that is) of a fake/fraudulent replica of the venerable Shure SM57 microphone. He was not aware of the original 57 and since he doesn't have access to many Western websites, he wasn't aware that he was creating a fraud copy. Just some food for thought. Cheers, Jeremy -Original Message- From: John Baumgart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Horn List' horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: 5/2/08 6:41 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments For the record, I'm not optimistic about this situation. That was someone else. Yes, Chinese manufacturers may soon turn out acceptable school horns, but some will also turn out counterfeit name-brand horns, much as they do with other items. A seller on eBay will list what looks like an older 8D, complete with a legitimate serial number and Conn engravings, as well as some simulated wear. A well-intentioned buyer knowing not to buy a Selman or other well-known crap horn will buy this thinking it's an Elkhart 8D. Heck, even the forged serial number checks out. The buyer gets the horn and it plays sort of OK, and many will be none the wiser until it's time to get a repair done and it's nothing more than a high end Selman, Schmort, Corn, Alexnerdan, Yummyhan or what have you. Chinese counterfeiters know no bounds when it comes to screwing people. John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Warner Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:40 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments On 1 May 2008, at 11:20 pm, John Baumgart wrote: Speaking of Chinese made horns, Kit wrote: A couple of years in the future when the manufacturers learn what they're doing, these instruments may start to become quite acceptable. I agree. I'm one who's actually optimistic about the future of Chinese instruments. It's already happening with other brass instruments. Importers are demanding a high level of quality and instruments based on proven designs. One brand is advertising that they've had their lead pipes designed by a well known and respected custom instrument maker. The prices are rising with the quality but I've been told that it's still possible to get, for example, a trumpet that's _very_ similar to a Yamaha Xeno for approximately half the price. In the Brass Band world, Virtuosi in England are selling what to all intents and purposes are professional quality instruments at student prices. It's a growing area and there's no reason it can't happen with horns. I'd almost be willing to bet that right now, somewhere out there there is a very well built and good playing Han 8D or 103. All the best, Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/john.baumgart%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/jeremy%40sublymerecords.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options
[Hornlist] Chinese instruments
Speaking of Chinese made horns, Kit wrote: A couple of years in the future when the manufacturers learn what they're doing, these instruments may start to become quite acceptable. I agree. I'm one who's actually optimistic about the future of Chinese instruments. I'm old enough to remember when Made in Japan stamped on a product meant it was junk. But now Made in Japan means top of the line for many products. I believe the Chinese instrument makers will eventually find that making better quality products is not only more satisfying, but also more profitable than making junk. Valerie PollyAnna Wells _ Save big on your amazing Alaskan Cruise. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifjMyUsqcEVSNehtVefTOOOyctI9czeyATb2ziFGQ0Q2mlnO/?count=1234567890 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
They are already finding this out - at least some of them are. And the prices are starting to go up accordingly. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 1:58 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments Speaking of Chinese made horns, Kit wrote: A couple of years in the future when the manufacturers learn what they're doing, these instruments may start to become quite acceptable. I agree. I'm one who's actually optimistic about the future of Chinese instruments. I'm old enough to remember when Made in Japan stamped on a product meant it was junk. But now Made in Japan means top of the line for many products. I believe the Chinese instrument makers will eventually find that making better quality products is not only more satisfying, but also more profitable than making junk. Valerie PollyAnna Wells _ Save big on your amazing Alaskan Cruise. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifjMyUsqcEVSNehtVefTOOOyctI9czeyATb2ziFGQ0Q2mlnO/?count=1234567890 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/brassartsunlim%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments
Given the respect China has for intellectual property and their flourishing counterfeiting industry, once the instruments do become marginally better than they are today, you will start seeing counterfeit Elkhart 8Ds, Alexander 103s, and the like. They will even contain legitimate serial numbers and be distressed to look like they're not brand new. If their manufacturing and distribution costs are $300 for such an instrument and they can sell them for $2000 each through eBay proxies, they will. John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 12:59 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Chinese instruments Speaking of Chinese made horns, Kit wrote: A couple of years in the future when the manufacturers learn what they're doing, these instruments may start to become quite acceptable. I agree. I'm one who's actually optimistic about the future of Chinese instruments. I'm old enough to remember when Made in Japan stamped on a product meant it was junk. But now Made in Japan means top of the line for many products. I believe the Chinese instrument makers will eventually find that making better quality products is not only more satisfying, but also more profitable than making junk. Valerie PollyAnna Wells _ Save big on your amazing Alaskan Cruise. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifjMyUsqcEVSNehtVefTOOOyct I9czeyATb2ziFGQ0Q2mlnO/?count=1234567890 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/john.baumgart%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
