Re: ISPF not productive

[Dave Salt]

I worked for a short time with SPIFFY and it was pure pain. Once I figured 
out how to get rid of it I never looked back.


When I worked for a previous employer, they had Spiffy installed. There were 
things about it I didn't like, but overall I found it to be light years 
ahead of using regular ISPF. I guess others must have felt the same way, 
otherwise my employer wouldn't have paid the $200,000 a year in annual 
maintenance!


While that might seem like a lot of money, there were roughly 1,000 people 
working on the mainframe. If Spiffy saved each worker an extremely 
conservative estimate of at least 1 hour a week (and I would consider the 
average to be much higher than that), do the math and you'll see $200,000 a 
year was a bargain. Believe me, if it wasn't, my employer wouldn't have paid 
it.


BTW: Some people advocate REFLISTS and the ISPF Workplace (etc), which of 
course come 'free' with ISPF. Meanwhile, IBM sells Spiffy as an add-on 
product to enhance ISPF. If Spiffy didn't do a *much* better job than 
REFLISTS and all the other ISPF freebies, how do you think they'd be able to 
sell it?



I found Spiffy to be much less intuitive than SimpList, and I was never
comfortable with the fact that Spiffy hijacks a lot of ISPF functions and
replaces them with its own.  SimpList doesn't do that.  It's there if you 
need it, but you can ignore it if you wish; it is just another ISPF

application (although an *excellent* one indeed).


Thank you for that. It's true that some people don't like change, and when 
they go to work one day and discover the ISPF interface is suddenly 
different (e.g. because Spiffy was installed), they immediately panic and 
try to get back to the old interface. It's a shame because if they stuck it 
out a little while, they'd soon discover they could be *way* more 
productive.


In contrast to Spiffy, SimpList doesn't change the regular ISPF panels. For 
example, 3.4 still looks and acts exactly the same as it did before. It's 
only if someone selects an option from the ISPF menu and knowingly launches 
a SimpList session that things are different. If they don't want to select 
the option and they want to continue using 3.4 or REFLISTS or the Workplace 
(etc), that's up to them.


I'm a huge fan of ISPF; the editor is awesome and the ISPF services are 
absolutely first class. IBM has done a superb job of supplying everything 
that's necessary to develop extremely productive tools and utilities. They 
also supply a fairly decent mainframe interface that many shops are content 
to use (e.g. option 3.4 etc). However, it's not the only interface that's 
available and it's far from being the best possible interface. For those who 
prefer to drive something other than a black model 'T', there are choices 
out there.


Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 03/26/2007
   at 02:29 PM, Dave Salt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>BTW: Some people advocate REFLISTS and the ISPF Workplace (etc),
>which of  course come 'free' with ISPF. Meanwhile, IBM sells Spiffy
>as an add-on  product to enhance ISPF. If Spiffy didn't do a *much*
>better job than  REFLISTS and all the other ISPF freebies, how do you
>think they'd be able to  sell it?

IBM sells lots of things, and I don't see any correlation between
sales figures and quality. The "everybody else has one" argument is
not an appropriate criterion for purchase decisions.

>Thank you for that. It's true that some people don't like change,

And some people that like change don't like gratuitous change that
makes their lives more difficult. Not all change is progress.

>and when they go to work one day and discover the ISPF interface is 
>suddenly different (e.g. because Spiffy was installed), they 
>immediately panic

Assuming that those who object to the behavior of your product are
Luddite's instead of carefully considering their concerns is not a
good way to maintain a product.

>and try to get back to the old interface. It's a shame because if 
>they stuck it  out a little while, they'd soon discover they could be
>*way* more  productive.

Perhaps. And perhaps they were more productive under vanilla ISPF. As
long as you blow off their complaints instead of analyzing them,
you'll never know. It's a shame, because you might be able to make
your product better if they actually listened to their users.

>I'm a huge fan of ISPF; the editor is awesome and the ISPF services
>are  absolutely first class. IBM has done a superb job of supplying
>everything  that's necessary to develop extremely productive tools
>and utilities.

FSVO everything. I take it that you've never used XEDIT. ISPF
certainly has a fine collection of tools, but the developers could
make it much better by taking advantage of ideas in the, e.g., VM,
*ix, worlds.

-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Dave Salt]

From: "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
IBM sells lots of things, and I don't see any correlation between
sales figures and quality. The "everybody else has one" argument is
not an appropriate criterion for purchase decisions.


I don't see any correlation either. Who said "everybody else has one"? I 
don't know how many shops use Spiffy, but I'd guess it's the exception 
rather than the rule. Which is a shame, because I've used Spiffy and it 
makes ISPF a *much* more productive environment to work in.




> It's true that some people don't like change,

And some people that like change don't like gratuitous change that
makes their lives more difficult. Not all change is progress.


Agreed.


>and when they go to work one day and discover the ISPF interface is
>suddenly different (e.g. because Spiffy was installed), they
>immediately panic

Assuming that those who object to the behavior of your product are
Luddite's instead of carefully considering their concerns is not a
good way to maintain a product.


My product? When did Spiffy become my product?


>and try to get back to the old interface. It's a shame because if
>they stuck it  out a little while, they'd soon discover they could be
>*way* more  productive.

Perhaps. And perhaps they were more productive under vanilla ISPF. As
long as you blow off their complaints instead of analyzing them,
you'll never know. It's a shame, because you might be able to make
your product better if they actually listened to their users.


Once again; it's not my product. And if it was, I certainly wouldn't blow 
off peoples complaints about it.


Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Eric N. Bielefeld]

I still think that what you learned first and grew up on determines what 
editor you like best.  I worked with VM for about 15 years at P&H Mining 
until they retired VM.  I never liked XEDIT as well as ISPF.  I know that 
some of the best people at P&H liked XEDIT better, but they learned it 
before ISPF.  I know that there are a few things that XEDIT does that can't 
be done in ISPF, but I can't remember what they are now.


Its funny how things work out when you've been away from ISPF for a while. 
When I would edit something at Lands End on the mainframe, I would keep 
grabbing the mouse and try to scroll forward using the scroll wheel.  I wish 
I could do that in ISPF.  I guess you can if you use the GUI, but I've never 
seen that work.


Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
414-475-7434

- Original Message - 
From: "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I take it that you've never used XEDIT. ISPF

certainly has a fine collection of tools, but the developers could
make it much better by taking advantage of ideas in the, e.g., VM,
*ix, worlds.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT 


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Re: ISPF not productive

[Larry DiCioccio]

It works when using Vista32, as the emulator, and _not_ in GUI mode. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric N. Bielefeld
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ISPF not productive

I still think that what you learned first and grew up on determines what

editor you like best.  I worked with VM for about 15 years at P&H Mining

until they retired VM.  I never liked XEDIT as well as ISPF.  I know
that 
some of the best people at P&H liked XEDIT better, but they learned it 
before ISPF.  I know that there are a few things that XEDIT does that
can't 
be done in ISPF, but I can't remember what they are now.

Its funny how things work out when you've been away from ISPF for a
while. 
When I would edit something at Lands End on the mainframe, I would keep 
grabbing the mouse and try to scroll forward using the scroll wheel.  I
wish 
I could do that in ISPF.  I guess you can if you use the GUI, but I've
never 
seen that work.

Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
414-475-7434

- Original Message - 
From: "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I take it that you've never used XEDIT. ISPF
> certainly has a fine collection of tools, but the developers could
> make it much better by taking advantage of ideas in the, e.g., VM,
> *ix, worlds.
>
> -- 
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT 

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Wayne Driscoll]

Eric,
That really depends on the terminal emulator you use.  I use Vista, and
one of the things I love about it is that it treats the scroll wheel as
ISPF UP and DOWN commands.  Now if ISPF find could use regular
expressions, I would be a happy man.
Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
JME Software LLC
NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own.
  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric N. Bielefeld
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ISPF not productive

I still think that what you learned first and grew up on determines what
editor you like best.  I worked with VM for about 15 years at P&H Mining
until they retired VM.  I never liked XEDIT as well as ISPF.  I know
that some of the best people at P&H liked XEDIT better, but they learned
it before ISPF.  I know that there are a few things that XEDIT does that
can't be done in ISPF, but I can't remember what they are now.

Its funny how things work out when you've been away from ISPF for a
while. 
When I would edit something at Lands End on the mainframe, I would keep
grabbing the mouse and try to scroll forward using the scroll wheel.  I
wish I could do that in ISPF.  I guess you can if you use the GUI, but
I've never seen that work.

Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
414-475-7434

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Paul Gilmartin]

In a recent note, Wayne Driscoll said:

> Subject:      Re: ISPF not productive
> 
> That really depends on the terminal emulator you use.  I use Vista, and
> one of the things I love about it is that it treats the scroll wheel as
> ISPF UP and DOWN commands.  Now if ISPF find could use regular
> expressions, I would be a happy man.
> 
Does it also scroll when the cursor reaches the edge of the screen
with arrow key, rather than hyperspacing to the opposite edge?

Many users would also yearn for the ability to move the cursor
or to delete a word at a time rather than a character at a time.

-- gil
-- 
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INFORMATION made POWERFUL

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Johnny Luo]

On 3/28/07, Wayne Driscoll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Eric,
That really depends on the terminal emulator you use.  I use Vista, and
one of the things I love about it is that it treats the scroll wheel as
ISPF UP and DOWN commands.



Interesting! Is it possible to do this in PCOMM since I don't use vista?


Now if ISPF find could use regular

expressions, I would be a happy man.



So do I.

Wayne Driscoll

Product Developer
JME Software LLC
NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own.






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Johnny Luo

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Re: ISPF not productive

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:44 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: ISPF not productive



> 
> Many users would also yearn for the ability to move the cursor
> or to delete a word at a time rather than a character at a time.
> 
> -- gil

Wasn't there something in old "green screen" 3270 Data Entry mode which
allowed "delete word"? Hey! I found it on my Hummingbird emulator. And
it works!

//DDNAME DD DISP=SHR

if I put the cursor on the first D of DD and press the "delete-work"
key, the "DD" and all blanks to the right of it disappear and the rest
of the line is shifted left to where the initial D was.

//DDNAME DISP=SHR

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: ISPF not productive

[GAVIN Darren * OPS EAS]

In Passport emulator you can assign WORD DELETE to a key (I have it 
on CTRL-End key)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ISPF not productive

In a recent note, Wayne Driscoll said:

> Subject:      Re: ISPF not productive
> 
> That really depends on the terminal emulator you use.  I use Vista,
and
> one of the things I love about it is that it treats the scroll wheel
as
> ISPF UP and DOWN commands.  Now if ISPF find could use regular
> expressions, I would be a happy man.
> 
Does it also scroll when the cursor reaches the edge of the screen
with arrow key, rather than hyperspacing to the opposite edge?

Many users would also yearn for the ability to move the cursor
or to delete a word at a time rather than a character at a time.

-- gil
-- 
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INFORMATION made POWERFUL

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Dave Salt]

From: "Eric N. Bielefeld" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Its funny how things work out when you've been away from ISPF for a while. 
When I would edit something at Lands End on the mainframe, I would keep 
grabbing the mouse and try to scroll forward using the scroll wheel.  I 
wish I could do that in ISPF.  I guess you can if you use the GUI, but I've 
never seen that work.


A few months ago I did exactly the same thing. I tried to scroll down on the 
mainframe by turning the scroll wheel. When the screen scrolled down, I sat 
there in total shock for a few seconds. Good old Vista; I love it!


Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Tom Schmidt]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:54:16 -0500, McKown, John wrote:
 
>> -Original Message- On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
 
>> Many users would also yearn for the ability to move the cursor
>> or to delete a word at a time rather than a character at a time.
>>
>
>Wasn't there something in old "green screen" 3270 Data Entry mode which
>allowed "delete word"? Hey! I found it on my Hummingbird emulator. And
>it works!
>
>//DDNAME DD DISP=SHR
>
>if I put the cursor on the first D of DD and press the "delete-work"
>key, the "DD" and all blanks to the right of it disappear and the rest
>of the line is shifted left to where the initial D was.
>
>//DDNAME DISP=SHR
 
 
Vista32 has DeleteWord as a key assignment, too.  Vista32 also gives you the 
option to make it a repeating key.  There are VERY few worthwhile features 
that are missing from Vista32 -- and it is a remarkably thin client on the Win 
platform.  
 
-- 
Tom Schmidt 
Madison, WI 
 

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Eric N. Bielefeld]

I didn't know Vista allowed that.  I'll have to try getting Vista at my next 
job then.  We had Rumba at Lands End.  At P&H, we had some old thing that 
was last supported around 1999.  I can't even remember the name any more.


Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
414-475-7434

- Original Message - 
From: "Wayne Driscoll" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



Eric,
That really depends on the terminal emulator you use.  I use Vista, and
one of the things I love about it is that it treats the scroll wheel as
ISPF UP and DOWN commands.  Now if ISPF find could use regular
expressions, I would be a happy man.
Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
JME Software LLC
NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own. 


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Re: ISPF not productive

[Tom Schmidt]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:20:20 -0500, Eric N. Bielefeld wrote:
 
>I didn't know Vista allowed that.  
  
 
Actually, Vista32 is even smarter than that -- it allows you to specify the 
wheel use but the default is that "wheelup" triggers PF7 and "wheeldown" 
triggers PF8.  (You can't reprogram the wheel using the keyboard editor but 
you can override the settings of the "WheelUp" and "WheelDown" variables in 
Vista.ini during startup.)  
 
I have discovered that very high-speed wheel usage may disconnect me from 
the NVAS sessions where I'm working now.  I could probably prevent that by 
replacing wheelup and wheeldown with macros that insert a small delay into 
the process... or I can just slow down a wee bit and not be bothered.  
(Vista32's wheel support can send a LOT of PF7's or PF8's really quickly!)  
 
-Disclaimer:  I have no connection to Vista32 or TomBrennanSoftware.com 
other than being a satisfied customer.
 
-- 
Tom Schmidt 
Madison, WI 
 

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Neubert, Kevin (DIS)]

I don't know if this is much news, but WebSphere Host On-Demand Version
10 has "Mouse wheel support for Java 2 JVM 1.4 and higher clients..."

http://www-304.ibm.com/jct03002c/software/webservers/hostondemand/featur
esv10.html

Regards,

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric N. Bielefeld
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ISPF not productive

I still think that what you learned first and grew up on determines what

editor you like best.  I worked with VM for about 15 years at P&H Mining

until they retired VM.  I never liked XEDIT as well as ISPF.  I know
that 
some of the best people at P&H liked XEDIT better, but they learned it 
before ISPF.  I know that there are a few things that XEDIT does that
can't 
be done in ISPF, but I can't remember what they are now.

Its funny how things work out when you've been away from ISPF for a
while. 
When I would edit something at Lands End on the mainframe, I would keep 
grabbing the mouse and try to scroll forward using the scroll wheel.  I
wish 
I could do that in ISPF.  I guess you can if you use the GUI, but I've
never 
seen that work.

Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
414-475-7434

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Gregory, Gary G]

I guess over time you end up using all of the mainframe editors.  When I
started off in this business I was 16 and a part-time operator for a
local hospital and that's about the time VSE/ICCF was introduced.  

In college we used MUSIC/SP and when I started at the bank a few years
later ROSCOE and Wylbur were the big, hot editors.  But like everyone
else depending on the environment I've used every editor for either VSE
or "MVS".  

My favorite was at an airline where I was doing consulting work.  The VP
of MIS didn't like XEDIT so we had to use ISPF under CMS.

Gary Garland Gregory, MS
CA 
Senior Software Engineer
Tel: +1-214-473-1863
Fax: +1-214-473-1050
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric N. Bielefeld
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ISPF not productive

I still think that what you learned first and grew up on determines what

editor you like best.  I worked with VM for about 15 years at P&H Mining

until they retired VM.  I never liked XEDIT as well as ISPF.  I know
that 
some of the best people at P&H liked XEDIT better, but they learned it 
before ISPF.  I know that there are a few things that XEDIT does that
can't 
be done in ISPF, but I can't remember what they are now.

Its funny how things work out when you've been away from ISPF for a
while. 
When I would edit something at Lands End on the mainframe, I would keep 
grabbing the mouse and try to scroll forward using the scroll wheel.  I
wish 
I could do that in ISPF.  I guess you can if you use the GUI, but I've
never 
seen that work.

Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
414-475-7434

- Original Message - 
From: "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I take it that you've never used XEDIT. ISPF
> certainly has a fine collection of tools, but the developers could
> make it much better by taking advantage of ideas in the, e.g., VM,
> *ix, worlds.
>
> -- 
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT 

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Howard Brazee]

On 28 Mar 2007 06:21:30 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Shmuel
Metz , Seymour J.) wrote:

>IBM sells lots of things, and I don't see any correlation between
>sales figures and quality. The "everybody else has one" argument is
>not an appropriate criterion for purchase decisions.

Except nowadays, everybody has a Unix server.While there might not
be a direct correlation between the quality of a particular feature
and sales - the reputation that the mainframe is more reliable than
some other computer company's Unix server is certainly valuable in
terms of sales.

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 03/28/2007
   at 08:44 AM, Paul Gilmartin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Does it also scroll when the cursor reaches the edge of the screen
>with arrow key, rather than hyperspacing to the opposite edge?

Are you using the WSA? Perhaps what is really needed is requirements
against WSA as well as ISPF base. The only obstacle I saw to using it
exclusively was the lack of block copy support, and I suspect that the
obstacles others see are equally trivial.
 
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Re: ISPF not productive

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 03/28/2007
   at 10:20 AM, "Eric N. Bielefeld" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>I still think that what you learned first and grew up on determines
>what  editor you like best.

I grew up on punched cards. I wrote my own card-oriented editors. I
used ATS before XEDIT. I used FSE before XEDIT. I encountered SPF
before XEDIT. I wanted SPF when I was using XEDIT, but that didn't
blind me to the faults of SPF or to the useful features of XEDIT. And
BTW, the editor I'm using on my PC is[1] Tritus SPF, an ISPF clone.

So, no, when I say something nice about XEDIT it's not because I
encountered it first, but because it's true. Of course, I have also
criticized it as well. If anything I'm prejudiced in favor of the
latest and greatest, but only when it really is an improvement.

[1] I'll probably start using THE as well when I get around to
configuring it. But I'll abandon TSPF when they pry it out of my
cold dead fingers.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 03/28/2007
   at 10:54 AM, "McKown, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Wasn't there something in old "green screen" 3270 Data Entry mode
>which allowed "delete word"?

My recollection is that text assist first showed up on amber displays.
The same feature allowed the tab key to skip to defined tab stops
instead of just field boundaries and allowed you to insert data into
trailing spaces.
 
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 ISO position; see  
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(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: ISPF not productive

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Shmuel Metz , Seymour J. wrote:

I grew up on punched cards. I wrote my own card-oriented editors. I
used ATS before XEDIT. I used FSE before XEDIT. I encountered SPF
before XEDIT. I wanted SPF when I was using XEDIT, but that didn't
blind me to the faults of SPF or to the useful features of XEDIT. And
BTW, the editor I'm using on my PC is[1] Tritus SPF, an ISPF clone.


re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007g.html#4 ISPF Limitations (was: Need for small 
machines ... )
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007g.html#5 Call for XEDIT freaks, submit ISPF 
requirements

I was first exposed to CMS edit in the spring '68 on 2741. I then wrote the 
TTY/ASCII
terminal support for cp67. Then for OS/MVT release 18 system ... i 
re-implemented
the CMS editor syntax (along with 2741 and TTY terminal support) from scratch 
for HASP CRJE implementation (CMS editor implementation wasn't re-entrant ... 
each running in its
own address space ... while HASP implementation required fully re-entrant 
implementation).
Being somewhat biased, I considered it enormously better than subsequent TSO 
release.

As far as I know, the HASP CRJE implementation never survived ... but the effort
didn't totally go to waste. Later I was able to use the experience of writing 
re-entrant
code as part of pushing portions of CMS (including the editor) into "shared" 
(r/o protected)
segments
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#mmap

old communication reference (some amount of the following reference involved
moving stuff that had already been implemented in cp67 to vm370)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#email731212 


shortly after the mid-80s, i got moved to a unix/emacs environment ... one of 
the
things that i missed was the all command ... and was able to acquire one (two 
decades
ago now) ... although the implementation that i currently use dates from '94. 


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Re: ISPF not productive (was: Need for small machines was Re: Macro List/Execute Forms (Was: Need help with Assembler ...)

[Don Leahy]

>Of course, there are always wish list items, but why do you say ISPF out 
>of the bag isn't very productive?


Actually, I have the same question.
I have used ISPF since it was only one piece and called SPF.
It is very productive, even in vanilla.
But, you have to proficient in it.
If you've never seen it before, it doesn't matter what it does.

Yes, vanilla ISPF is way more productive than what came before it, but it is 
not as productive as it could be, which is the point I am trying to make. 
And I speak as an avid ISPF dialog developer, not as a casual user.


I once believed that ISPF pretty much represented the apex of programmer 
productivity.  The editor is absolutely brilliant, and is, IMO, the gold 
standard for programmers' editors.  So are the dialog services provided for 
developers who create their own ISPF applications.


My complaint is in regards to how the ISPF user interface works; the way the 
panels are organized, the way that functionality is fragmented etc.


I've been fortunate enough to have extensive exposure to two different 
mainframe products, both of which are, IMO,  far superior to using regular 
ISPF panels. One is Spiffy, and the other is SimpList. Having used them 
both, I absolutely couldn't imagine going back to using regular ISPF panels. 
To me, it would be like taking a huge step backwards. Anyone who uses 
regular ISPF has my extreme sympathy; they're doing themselves a great 
injustice and have

absolutely no idea how much time or effort they're wasting.

So, if you've never seen SimpList or Spiffy before, check them out and see 
for yourself.


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Re: ISPF not productive (was: Need for small machines was Re: Macro List/Execute Forms (Was: Need help with Assembler ...)

[Ed Gould]

On Mar 25, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Don Leahy wrote:
SNIP-



So, if you've never seen SimpList or Spiffy before, check them out  
and see for yourself.




I worked for a short time with SPIFFY and it was pure pain. Once I  
figured out how to get rid of it I never looked back. But to each his  
own I have seen several so called productivity enhancers for ISPF and  
I found all of them a pain to use. Yes I am spoiled ISPF user and I  
don't use probably more that 15 percent of ISPF functions the other  
85 percent (IMO) is not all that useful. Yes I have written some  
dialogs over the years and have stumbled around trying to do so. Give  
me raw ISPF as delivered from IBM and I am a happy camper.


Ed

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Re: ISPF not productive (was: Need for small machines was Re: Macro List/Execute Forms (Was: Need help with Assembler ...)

[Don Leahy]

I worked for a short time with SPIFFY and it was pure pain. Once I figured 
out how to get rid of it I never looked back. But to each his  own I have 
seen several so called productivity enhancers for ISPF and  I found all of 
them a pain to use. Yes I am spoiled ISPF user and I  don't use probably 
more that 15 percent of ISPF functions the other  85 percent (IMO) is not 
all that useful. Yes I have written some  dialogs over the years and have 
stumbled around trying to do so. Give  me raw ISPF as delivered from IBM 
and I am a happy camper.



I found Spiffy to be much less intuitive than SimpList, and I was never
comfortable with the fact that Spiffy hijacks a lot of ISPF functions and
replaces them with its own.  SimpList doesn't do that.  It's there if you
need it, but you can ignore it if you wish; it is just another ISPF
application (although an *excellent* one indeed). 


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