Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

However, on that page it says "These claims have not been accepted by the 
scientific community."

Also, in a part of the world prone to flooding, do we really need a rare event 
to explain a story about a flood?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Mike Schwab [mike.a.sch...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

They think the Burckle Crater, off Madagascar, was created by a meteor
impact about 2860BCE and the tsunami and torrential downfall is the source
of flooding legends around that time.  Impacted SE coast of South America,
South Africa, Somalia, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, South and West coast of
Australia.  The south coast of the Arabian peninsula is high cliffs so
diverted water toward Iran, which also had high cliffs, so it got very high
and went up the Gulf of Arabia, the Tigris and Euphates River Valleys, to
the mountains of northern Iraq and Turkey, including Mt. Ararat.

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burckle_Crater

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023, 21:04 David Spiegel <
0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Hi Bill,
> You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
> That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
> Please see GE 7:2
> (The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each
> species of "clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate
> to English. It is usually translated as clean, which although close is
> incorrect.)
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-08-14 21:16, Bill Johnson wrote:
> > Yes I do.
> >
> > It has also been seen as a depiction of nomadic conflict, the struggle
> for land and resources (and divine favour) between nomadic herders and
> sedentary farmers. The Academic theologian Joseph Blenkinsopp holds
> that Cain and Abel are symbolic rather than real.
> > And Noah never collected 2 of every species.
> >
> >
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Monday, August 14, 2023, 9:12 PM, David Spiegel <
> 0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> > You said: "... Cain & Abel which is fictional. ..."
> > Do you have proof for this assertion?
> >
> > Regards,
> > David
> >
> > On 2023-08-14 20:02, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >> I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also
> worked with people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into
> IT because they were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10
> posters here a question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster
> thinks his answer is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe
> system programmers, yet the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop
> eliminated the mainframe, mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts
> that say otherwise. Plus, the security on the platform is unmatched.
> Hackers would love to be able to hack the mainframe since that’s where the
> money is. Banks being the big one.
> >>
> >> I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the
> Korean conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the
> Peloponnesian war, from Cain vs Abel?”
> >>
> >> I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life
> Christians” massacred hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200
> years. But did mention Cain & Abel which is fictional.
> >>
> >>
> >> Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who
> can barely breathe and chew gum.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike <
> wayn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name Johnson
> by
> >> nature.
> >>
> >> Yeah, I found this on the internet too:
> >>
> >> Noun[edit
> >> <
> https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=johnson&action=edit§ion=4
> >]
> >>
> >> *johnson* (*plural* *johnsons
> >> *)
> >>
> >>  1. (slang )
> Penis
> >>  . quotations ▼synonym
> ▲Synonyms:
> >>  *see* Thesaurus:penis <
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Thesaurus:penis>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:33 AM Wayne Bickerdike 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Way to miss the point Bill. Do you write programs that miss out things
> >>> because they can be easily found on the internet?
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:23 AM Bill Johnson <
> >>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> 
> https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
>  On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:17 PM, Wayne Bickerdike <
> wayn...@gmail.

Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

Nonsense; the Bible is a lot of things, including History. The fun starts when 
people argue about which parts are what. There's lot's of allegory, metaphor 
poetry, etc., but there are also things that match archaeological data.

I have this fantasy of a biblical literalist trying to explain how every word 
of Song of Songs is literally true


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

The Bible is 100% fiction. Christians have killed and molested more people than 
anyone. Pro life?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 14, 2023, 10:04 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each
species of "clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate
to English. It is usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

Regards,
David

On 2023-08-14 21:16, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes I do.
>
> It has also been seen as a depiction of nomadic conflict, the struggle for 
> land and resources (and divine favour) between nomadic herders and sedentary 
> farmers. The Academic theologian Joseph Blenkinsopp holds that Cain and Abel 
> are symbolic rather than real.
> And Noah never collected 2 of every species.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 9:12 PM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> You said: "... Cain & Abel which is fictional. ..."
> Do you have proof for this assertion?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-08-14 20:02, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also worked 
>> with people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into IT 
>> because they were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10 
>> posters here a question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster 
>> thinks his answer is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe 
>> system programmers, yet the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop 
>> eliminated the mainframe, mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts 
>> that say otherwise. Plus, the security on the platform is unmatched. Hackers 
>> would love to be able to hack the mainframe since that’s where the money is. 
>> Banks being the big one.
>>
>> I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the Korean 
>> conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the Peloponnesian 
>> war, from Cain vs Abel?”
>>
>> I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life Christians” 
>> massacred hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200 years. But did 
>> mention Cain & Abel which is fictional.
>>
>>
>> Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who can 
>> barely breathe and chew gum.
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
>> wrote:
>>
>> A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name Johnson by
>> nature.
>>
>> Yeah, I found this on the internet too:
>>
>> Noun[edit
>> ]
>>
>> *johnson* (*plural* *johnsons
>> *)
>>
>>  1. (slang ) 
>> Penis
>>  . quotations ▼synonym ▲Synonyms:
>>  *see* Thesaurus:penis 
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:33 AM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:
>>
>>> Way to miss the point Bill. Do you write programs that miss out things
>>> because they can be easily found on the internet?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:23 AM Bill Johnson <
>>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
 https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story




 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


 On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:17 PM, Wayne Bickerdike 
 wrote:

 Windows NT came from the VAX guys, I think.

 On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:15 AM Wayne Bickerdike 
 wrote:

> *The facts. According to Bill Johnson.American computer programmer
 Timothy
> Paterson, a developer for Seattle Computer Products, wrote the original
> operating system for the Intel Corporation’s 8086 microprocessor in
 1980,
> initially calling it QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System), which was
> soon renamed 86-DOS. A year late

Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

ITYM טְּהוֹרָ֗ה.

Also, the sentence uses the word טְּהוֹרָ֗ה, which limits it to mammals.

"All translations are lies."


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Spiegel [0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:03 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each
species of "clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate
to English. It is usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

Regards,
David

On 2023-08-14 21:16, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes I do.
>
> It has also been seen as a depiction of nomadic conflict, the struggle for 
> land and resources (and divine favour) between nomadic herders and sedentary 
> farmers. The Academic theologian Joseph Blenkinsopp holds that Cain and Abel 
> are symbolic rather than real.
> And Noah never collected 2 of every species.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 9:12 PM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> You said: "... Cain & Abel which is fictional. ..."
> Do you have proof for this assertion?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-08-14 20:02, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also worked 
>> with people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into IT 
>> because they were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10 
>> posters here a question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster 
>> thinks his answer is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe 
>> system programmers, yet the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop 
>> eliminated the mainframe, mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts 
>> that say otherwise. Plus, the security on the platform is unmatched. Hackers 
>> would love to be able to hack the mainframe since that’s where the money is. 
>> Banks being the big one.
>>
>> I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the Korean 
>> conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the Peloponnesian 
>> war, from Cain vs Abel?”
>>
>> I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life Christians” 
>> massacred hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200 years. But did 
>> mention Cain & Abel which is fictional.
>>
>>
>> Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who can 
>> barely breathe and chew gum.
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
>> wrote:
>>
>> A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name Johnson by
>> nature.
>>
>> Yeah, I found this on the internet too:
>>
>> Noun[edit
>> ]
>>
>> *johnson* (*plural* *johnsons
>> *)
>>
>>  1. (slang ) 
>> Penis
>>  . quotations ▼synonym ▲Synonyms:
>>  *see* Thesaurus:penis 
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:33 AM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:
>>
>>> Way to miss the point Bill. Do you write programs that miss out things
>>> because they can be easily found on the internet?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:23 AM Bill Johnson <
>>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
 https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story




 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


 On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:17 PM, Wayne Bickerdike 
 wrote:

 Windows NT came from the VAX guys, I think.

 On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:15 AM Wayne Bickerdike 
 wrote:

> *The facts. According to Bill Johnson.American computer programmer
 Timothy
> Paterson, a developer for Seattle Computer Products, wrote the original
> operating system for the Intel Corporation’s 8086 microprocessor in
 1980,
> initially calling it QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System), which was
> soon renamed 86-DOS. A year later, fledgling company Microsoft
> purchased exclusive rights to sell the system, renamed MS-DOS, to IBM
 for
> their newly developed IBM-PC. IBM-compatible versions were marketed as
> PC-DOS. Version 1.0 was released in 1981; additional upgraded versions
 kept
> pace with the rapidly evolving PC. Windows 95, introduced by Microsoft
 in
> 1995, incorporated MS-DOS 7.0 but ultimately superseded the MS-DOS
> platform. Starting with 

Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

The scarcity of documents going back to 1000-3000 BCE makes it very difficult 
to sort out what is history and what is not. Modern scholars form a lot of 
hypotheses via textual analysis that are very difficult to verify with actual 
data. That's why discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls are so exciting, even 
though they don't go back far enough.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:42 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

Adam and Eve are fictional as well.

Historicity. While a traditional view was that the Book of Genesis was authored 
by Moses and has been considered historical and metaphorical, modern scholars 
consider the Genesis creation narrative as one of various ancient origin myths.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 14, 2023, 9:12 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "... Cain & Abel which is fictional. ..."
Do you have proof for this assertion?

Regards,
David

On 2023-08-14 20:02, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also worked 
> with people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into IT 
> because they were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10 posters 
> here a question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster thinks his 
> answer is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe system 
> programmers, yet the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop eliminated 
> the mainframe, mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts that say 
> otherwise. Plus, the security on the platform is unmatched. Hackers would 
> love to be able to hack the mainframe since that’s where the money is. Banks 
> being the big one.
>
> I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the Korean 
> conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the Peloponnesian 
> war, from Cain vs Abel?”
>
> I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life Christians” 
> massacred hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200 years. But did 
> mention Cain & Abel which is fictional.
>
>
> Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who can 
> barely breathe and chew gum.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
> wrote:
>
> A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name Johnson by
> nature.
>
> Yeah, I found this on the internet too:
>
> Noun[edit
> ]
>
> *johnson* (*plural* *johnsons
> *)
>
>1. (slang ) Penis
>. quotations ▼synonym ▲Synonyms:
>*see* Thesaurus:penis 
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:33 AM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:
>
>> Way to miss the point Bill. Do you write programs that miss out things
>> because they can be easily found on the internet?
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:23 AM Bill Johnson <
>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:17 PM, Wayne Bickerdike 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Windows NT came from the VAX guys, I think.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:15 AM Wayne Bickerdike 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 *The facts. According to Bill Johnson.American computer programmer
>>> Timothy
 Paterson, a developer for Seattle Computer Products, wrote the original
 operating system for the Intel Corporation’s 8086 microprocessor in
>>> 1980,
 initially calling it QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System), which was
 soon renamed 86-DOS. A year later, fledgling company Microsoft
 purchased exclusive rights to sell the system, renamed MS-DOS, to IBM
>>> for
 their newly developed IBM-PC. IBM-compatible versions were marketed as
 PC-DOS. Version 1.0 was released in 1981; additional upgraded versions
>>> kept
 pace with the rapidly evolving PC. Windows 95, introduced by Microsoft
>>> in
 1995, incorporated MS-DOS 7.0 but ultimately superseded the MS-DOS
 platform. Starting with Windows NT, Microsoft’s operating systems were
 designed independently of MS-DOS, though they were capable of running
>>> some
 MS-DOS applications.*

 Facts but missing lots of pivotal events. No mention of Gary Kildall.
 Windows 2.0 was a brief look at a Windows O/S. Windows 3.0 preceded WIN
>>> 95
 as did Windows 3.1.

 Really who

Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

There were syntax changes going from CP/M to [MS|PC]-DOS, and somewhere along 
the way PIP was lost.

The editor also changed fr Mr. Ed to Mr. Edlin.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Thompson [ste...@wkyr.net]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 8:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

DOS was Digital Research's CPM if I remember correctly. And so
M/S renamed it to DOS. Then eventually they had to make changes
for sub directories (originally it was a single directly level
file system). I think it was Tandy that at their DOS 2.11 they
had sub-directories (I was using the Tandy copy of DOS in those
days).

Steve Thompson

On 8/14/2023 6:14 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 8/14/23 3:16 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
>> I sort of agree, but I think underneath we still disagree.  I
>> agree that IBM didn't think the PC software was worth
>> developing.  And if they had held onto MS-DOS and approached
>> its development in the same way that Microsoft did, sure,
>> they'd probably be worth bazillions.
>
> My hang up is that -- as I understand it -- DOS was /never/
> IBM's to start with.
>
> DOS was /Microsoft's/.
>
> Or are you suggesting that IBM should have purchased exclusive
> rights to use / distribute / etc DOS from Microsoft?
>
>
>
> Grant. . . .
>
> --
>
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO
> IBM-MAIN

--
Regards,
Steve Thompson
VS Strategies LLC
Westfield IN
972-983-9430 cell

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Re: Help for US Talent

[Seymour J Metz]

Recruiters are like tech writes; a good one can be extremely helpful, a bad one 
can be just a hindrance.

I once interviewed a candidate who, after hearing the job description, asked 
why he had been sent. It turns out that my employer was using the low bidder, 
and they just flung résumés at the wall and saw what stuck.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
rpinion865 [042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 8:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Help for US Talent

I get tons of emails from offshore recruiters. Some are geared toward my listed 
experience. But there are some that do not come close. The only thing that 
matches me is the state I live in.

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

 Original Message 
On Aug 14, 2023, 7:32 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

> I haven't had any recruiters ask me about forklifts, but yeah, I do get some 
> that just match me up with "something computer-related" and contact me about 
> that. But it occurs to me belatedly that you're talking about phone calls. I 
> don't know what you and I are doing differently, but most recruiters email 
> me, and the rare phone calls I get are (so far) all w real gigs for me, I 
> mean gigs that I might conceivably be interested in. The ones that aren't a 
> good match, or when it's two or three recruiters from the same company 
> contacting me about the same req, those all come from just one or two 
> recruiting companies. But they almost never know my name, and I can throw 
> their emails in my Junk folder without pangs of conscience. Mostly if a 
> recruiter knows my name (I mean, addresses his email to me and not just to 
> "Greetings"), I take the trouble to reply politely. They're still my source 
> of work, after all. And I may suddenly need to come out of my 
> semi-retirement, in which case I want them to think well of me. --- Bob 
> Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The art of not reading 
> is a very important one. It consists in not taking an interest in whatever 
> may be engaging the attention of the general public at any particular time. 
> When some political or ecclesiastical pamphlet, or novel, or poem is making a 
> great commotion, you should remember that he who writes for fools always 
> finds a large public. A precondition for reading good books is not reading 
> bad ones: for life is short. -Schopenhauer */ -Original Message- 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Grant Taylor Sent: Monday, 
> August 14, 2023 18:43 I've dealt with way too many bad recruiters this year. 
> I've told them up front, what I'm looking for in very clear and concise 
> manner. I clearly provided; salary, location / remote, and job function. Too 
> many of them would inquire if I wanted to drive a forklift or install cable 
> TV wiring in a completely different state across the country. It got to the 
> point that I would ban recruiter companies from my mail server after the 3rd 
> such wildly incorrect inquiry. It's routine for different recruiters from the 
> same company to reach out, thinking that filtering is based on email address. 
> I've even had a recruiting company stop sending from their company email 
> addresses and use Gmail in order to avoid email filters. These are the low 
> ball recruiters that I want to simply go away and stop talking to me. --- On 
> 8/14/23 3:23 PM, Bob Bridges wrote: > Am I missing something? Why the 
> interest in making life hard for > recruiters? Ok, I'm a contractor so my 
> continued employment depends > on their existence. Still, why? > > If I 
> thought that you normally work under those conditions - $125/hr > or outside 
> the US half the time - then of course you're just stating > up front one of 
> your requirements. From the tone, though, it sounds > like you're trying to 
> make them unhappy for the fun of it. Is there > something going on here that 
> I'm not aware of? 
> -- For 
> IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

Not all of the programmers that I worked with in the 1960s were white.

Some of the posters here have worked on multiple platforms and are well aware 
that answer vary depending on context.

Wasn't the Hundred Years' War just a land grab? I believe that the Thirty 
Years' War is a better example of a religious war, although even there it is 
more complicated.

As for security, if I wanted to crack a system, I'd look first for 
vulnerabilities in the staff rather than in the technology.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 8:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also worked with 
people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into IT because they 
were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10 posters here a 
question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster thinks his answer 
is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe system programmers, yet 
the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop eliminated the mainframe, 
mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts that say otherwise. Plus, the 
security on the platform is unmatched. Hackers would love to be able to hack 
the mainframe since that’s where the money is. Banks being the big one.

I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the Korean 
conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the Peloponnesian 
war, from Cain vs Abel?”

I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life Christians” 
massacred hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200 years. But did 
mention Cain & Abel which is fictional.


Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who can barely 
breathe and chew gum.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:

A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name Johnson by
nature.

Yeah, I found this on the internet too:

Noun[edit
]

*johnson* (*plural* *johnsons
*)

  1. (slang ) Penis
  . quotations ▼synonym ▲Synonyms:
  *see* Thesaurus:penis 


On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:33 AM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:

> Way to miss the point Bill. Do you write programs that miss out things
> because they can be easily found on the internet?
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:23 AM Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>> https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:17 PM, Wayne Bickerdike 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Windows NT came from the VAX guys, I think.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:15 AM Wayne Bickerdike 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > *The facts. According to Bill Johnson.American computer programmer
>> Timothy
>> > Paterson, a developer for Seattle Computer Products, wrote the original
>> > operating system for the Intel Corporation’s 8086 microprocessor in
>> 1980,
>> > initially calling it QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System), which was
>> > soon renamed 86-DOS. A year later, fledgling company Microsoft
>> > purchased exclusive rights to sell the system, renamed MS-DOS, to IBM
>> for
>> > their newly developed IBM-PC. IBM-compatible versions were marketed as
>> > PC-DOS. Version 1.0 was released in 1981; additional upgraded versions
>> kept
>> > pace with the rapidly evolving PC. Windows 95, introduced by Microsoft
>> in
>> > 1995, incorporated MS-DOS 7.0 but ultimately superseded the MS-DOS
>> > platform. Starting with Windows NT, Microsoft’s operating systems were
>> > designed independently of MS-DOS, though they were capable of running
>> some
>> > MS-DOS applications.*
>> >
>> > Facts but missing lots of pivotal events. No mention of Gary Kildall.
>> > Windows 2.0 was a brief look at a Windows O/S. Windows 3.0 preceded WIN
>> 95
>> > as did Windows 3.1.
>> >
>> > Really who cares?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:09 AM Jon Perryman 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>  > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 03:15:12 PM PDT, Grant Taylor wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 8/14/23 3:16 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > My hang up is that -- as I understand it -- DOS was /never/ IBM's to
>> >> start with.
>> >>
>> >> > DOS was /Microsoft's.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Again, if you want some insights, you can watch
>> >> https://youtu.be/Qc5khH5gllg?t=339 that seems to be the prevalent
>> story.
>> >> Is this different from the story as you under

Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

It's a bit more complicated than that, but Cutler certainly had a major role.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Wayne Bickerdike [wayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 7:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

Windows NT came from the VAX guys, I think.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:15 AM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:

>
>
> *The facts. According to Bill Johnson.American computer programmer Timothy
> Paterson, a developer for Seattle Computer Products, wrote the original
> operating system for the Intel Corporation’s 8086 microprocessor in 1980,
> initially calling it QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System), which was
> soon renamed 86-DOS. A year later, fledgling company Microsoft
> purchased exclusive rights to sell the system, renamed MS-DOS, to IBM for
> their newly developed IBM-PC. IBM-compatible versions were marketed as
> PC-DOS. Version 1.0 was released in 1981; additional upgraded versions kept
> pace with the rapidly evolving PC. Windows 95, introduced by Microsoft in
> 1995, incorporated MS-DOS 7.0 but ultimately superseded the MS-DOS
> platform. Starting with Windows NT, Microsoft’s operating systems were
> designed independently of MS-DOS, though they were capable of running some
> MS-DOS applications.*
>
> Facts but missing lots of pivotal events. No mention of Gary Kildall.
> Windows 2.0 was a brief look at a Windows O/S. Windows 3.0 preceded WIN 95
> as did Windows 3.1.
>
> Really who cares?
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:09 AM Jon Perryman  wrote:
>
>>  > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 03:15:12 PM PDT, Grant Taylor wrote:
>>
>> On 8/14/23 3:16 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
>>
>> > My hang up is that -- as I understand it -- DOS was /never/ IBM's to
>> start with.
>>
>> > DOS was /Microsoft's.
>>
>>
>> Again, if you want some insights, you can watch
>> https://youtu.be/Qc5khH5gllg?t=339 that seems to be the prevalent story.
>> Is this different from the story as you understand it?
>>
>> 1. MS-DOS did not exist prior to IBM / Bill Gates meeting.
>>
>> 2. IBM wanted a new OS. IBM contractred Gates to create this OS which was
>> to be called PC DOS.
>>
>> 3. Because IBM was gun shy from anti-trust lawsuits, it chose to exclude
>> ownership of PC DOS thus allowing PC-DOS to be sold as MS-DOS by Microsoft.
>>
>> Microsoft was not the sole owner of DOS. One piece of software was owned
>> by IBM and Microsoft. It was IBM's choice not to retain sole ownership of
>> DOS.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>
>
> --
> Wayne V. Bickerdike
>
>

--
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: USS Features

[Seymour J Metz]

It's not a mainframe vs PC thing or a work place versus Academia thing, it's a 
general lack of curiousity and initiative. Lot's of people can't be bothered to 
learn anything that they can avoid learning.

I have to partially disagree on theory: I believe that the failure to teach 
basic theory has caused a lot of problems. That said, I also believe that 
students should be exposed to several radically different languages along with 
the theory, but that it is misguided to concentrate on the language du jour.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Thompson [ste...@wkyr.net]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 4:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: USS Features

"Is it a non-west-coast specific mentality to ignore reality? Is
COBOL bringing in top computer professionals because of the
challenges it poses? "

How about the prestigious Schools telling their students that
COBOL is a dead or dying language? And indicating that Mainframes
are obsolete and not keeping up with technology?

I have relatives that have retired from a university (in the
USofA) and one of them worked with Grad Students to help them get
the computer lab time they needed, while also helping them get
the resources they needed for any experiments and the like they
needed to do involving IT.

I also have a relative that retired in Germany from a school
there, who had been teaching English to students from India. We
won't get started on this, but I'm not making this stuff up.

And they knew that I worked on mainframes. But when I told them
that the language you say is dead is also an OO Language now. I
told them about a few Standards put out for COBOL. They were
astonished. Now granted, I know more about COBOL's pseudo OO
abilities than I did back then. But that school got rid of their
mainframe decades ago.  And they had NO idea that the current IBM
mainframes could run Java, c/C++, etc.

They had no idea that the majority of their credit card
transactions were being handled by a mainframe somewhere. They
didn't know how many Banks, financial entities, Airlines, etc.
ran their biz using obsolete mainframes making millions of
obsolete dollars doing it.


It is my opinion that the universities seem to be in their own
Echo Chamber.

And then to add insult to injury, they weren't (at that time)
teaching any computer languages, they only taught theory.   Say
What!?! Yes, they only teach theory. So students have to learn a
language on their own to get employed in IT.

This is one of the top schools in the country. Not at Harvard's
level, but something around Stanford's Level (speaking of
Standford, they are the ones that destroyed the source for Wylbur
when they migrated it to a non-mainframe environment).

Then, I learned that several people from India that I had been
working with had degrees, said that the school they went to in
India only taught theory, they didn't teach any languages either!!

It was no wonder that because I took care of the tool for getting
compiles done, that they were using me for a help desk so I
couldn't concentrate on things I needed to get done. The
"compiler" had thrown an ABEND and I needed to fix it.  The
"compiler" was the utility for generating JCL to do their
compiles. So it knew how to put together all the translators
(CICS, DB2, IDMS, ProCOBOL, and all the linkedit stuff and DB2
BIND. The ABEND was the step after LINKEDIT which had failed with
a non-zero CC. We had to put in these ABEND steps because they
didn't bother to check if everything had worked before they'd
run|reran their JOB to test the program.

This is the level of people with degrees and a visa we are
getting. That's my experience at one large insurance company. And
you wonder about the recruiters that are also here with visas?

Management wants to go cheap. They get what they pay for.

Steve Thompson

ps. Mainframes had color monitors in the mid-70s. Management
didn't want to pay for them. Today mainframe is called Green
screen. We had color before the PCs did. Just think about that.


On 8/14/2023 3:41 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:
>   > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 03:09:33 AM PDT, David Spiegel wrote:
>> You said: "...Programmers leave z/OS for Unix in order to be in full control.
>> I have not once heard any  programmer leave for more control.
>> Could this be a west-coast specific mentality? ... It would not be 
>> surprising.
> Is it a non-west-coast specific mentality to ignore reality? Is cobol 
> bringing in top computer professionals because of the challenges it poses? 
> Who was it that convinced companies to switch from MVS to Unix because it is 
> superior? Do you consider Unix files superior when they haven't changed since 
> they were first conceived? Programmers flee to Unix because it offers real 
> computer challenges instead of z/OS forcing them to focus on the business.
>
>
> ---

Re: Help for US Talent

[Seymour J Metz]

Why do you want to get rid of them? If a recruiter calls, I politely say that 
I'm not interested at this time.

Depending on the context, I may politely explain that assembler programmer and 
assembly line technician are very different skill sets, and that the skills 
don't transfer well in either direction. No, I did not make this up, and it 
isn't a one-time thing.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Beaver [050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 3:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Help for US Talent

Every time a recruiter calls me I have a sure way get rid of them and
increase what they need to pay.



They ask me if I'm Steve, and I say yes



Then I tell them "Are you calling me with a job that pays $125/HR W2 or
$210,000 perm?"



You hear them fade or die on the other end then I hang up.






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Re: USS Features

[Andrew Rowley]

On 15/08/2023 10:09 am, Jon Perryman wrote:

This is z/OS with SYSPROGS, not Unix with sysadmins where programmers have full 
control to define reasonable. You keep asking the wrong question. Who (not 
what) determines reasonable. Right or wrong, it is their job, not yours. If you 
can't give up control of sysprog duties, then z/OS is not the OS for you.


I started on MVS in 1991, so it's a bit late to tell me that. I've 
*been* the storage admin.


Without evidence to the contrary, its a good idea to assume the fact 
that your colleagues are being paid means that they are doing work 
valuable to the business, and it's not the storage admin's job to veto 
it because it requires too much DASD space.


Its the storage admin's job to make sure that other people are not 
prevented from doing their work due to a lack of disk space. It's one of 
those jobs where the better you do, the less people know you're there.


Disk space is cheap. Data is valuable. People are expensive. Don't waste 
expensive people time managing empty space. Spend your time looking 
after the valuable data, and have enough free space that people don't 
need to stop what they are doing and set up a meeting with the storage 
admin group.


--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: Help for US Talent

[Bobbie Jo Justice]

We've all dealt with good recruiters and bad recruiters over the years. Good 
recruiters will send decent paying remote jobs that match your experience. 

Bad recruiters will send jobs about 40+ lpars paying peanuts. Then there's 
always let's work onsite in nyc for 1/4th the salary you'll need to survive. 
Not to mention, we can submit you to the same company multiple times because 
this position "just came out today and is a different requisition number". My 
other favorite is sending me computer operator jobs when the last time I was a 
computer operator was the mid 1980s. 

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Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Bob Bridges]

There's a Christian missionary organization called Wycliffe Bible Translators 
whose goal is to send a small team (and by "small" I mean usually husband and 
wife or two brothers, like that) to these groups that speak a language that 
only a thousand people in the whole world use, to live with them and learn 
their language, and eventually to translate the Bible into it.  A family I know 
did that with the Kogi indians in Colombia - that was a whole family, parents 
and I think three children - and when one of them came back on furlough I 
remember a discussion I had with him about the difficulties of translation.  He 
of course was uncomfortably aware of the impossibility of doing it perfectly, 
and I in my youth (I had been a serious Christian only a couple years, I think) 
tried to reässure him that God will protect His words.  I didn't convince him, 
and of course now that I'm older and can read several languages I see more 
clearly what he must have worried about constantly.

I knew of course that the story doesn't say two of everything.  I did ~not~ 
know that it used a word restricting it to mammals.  Every day something new.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Despite the Humvee's ruggedness, when it's cruising on the highway, the ride 
is surprisingly similar to that of a full-size luxury sedan being dragged 
across a boulder field on its roof.  -Dave Barry, 2001-01-07 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 04:20

ITYM טְּהוֹרָ֗ה.

Also, the sentence uses the word טְּהוֹרָ֗ה, which limits it to mammals.

"All translations are lies."


From: David Spiegel [0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:03 PM

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each species of 
"clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate to English. It is 
usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

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Re: Help for US Talent

[Bob Bridges]

When I was contracting on-site I had an Excel workbook that I used to estimate 
what rate I would want to go live in  for a few quarters.  
The workbook was - well, you know what Scott Adams said?  "To a normal person, 
if it ain't broke, don’t fix it.  To an engineer, if it ain't broke it doesn't 
have enough features yet."  Like that.

Anyway, I never did work in NYC.  I'd consult my workbook, and it would say 
$120/hr or some awful number that I could hardly take seriously myself, and the 
recruiter would just laugh and move on.  I eventually decided that people who 
live in NYC must know some tricks that I don't know.  Not that I'm unhappy 
about the outcome; I'm not a big-city guy anyway, when I get my druthers.

And about req numbers:  I learned at some point to get the client's req number 
from the recruiter as soon as the talk got past the introductory stage.  No 
confusion allowed about who submitted me first and for which position.  
Truthfully most of the recruiters didn't try to play fast and loose with the 
conventions we agree on, but there were a few who did and there were 
opportunities for honest confusion too.  Recording the req# in my database was 
one way to reduce the latter.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I never guess.  It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data.  
Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to 
suit facts.  -Sir Arthur Conan Doyle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bobbie Jo Justice
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 08:22

We've all dealt with good recruiters and bad recruiters over the years. Good 
recruiters will send decent paying remote jobs that match your experience. 

Bad recruiters will send jobs about 40+ lpars paying peanuts. Then there's 
always let's work onsite in nyc for 1/4th the salary you'll need to survive. 
Not to mention, we can submit you to the same company multiple times because 
this position "just came out today and is a different requisition number". My 
other favorite is sending me computer operator jobs when the last time I was a 
computer operator was the mid 1980s. 

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Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

Translation is a bear. I'm a native Anglophone who learned Hebrew as an adult, 
yet there were things I wrote in Hebrew that I had trouble translating into 
English.

I inadvertently pasted "teharah" twice; the word I meant to paste the second 
time was "behema".


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 8:57 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

There's a Christian missionary organization called Wycliffe Bible Translators 
whose goal is to send a small team (and by "small" I mean usually husband and 
wife or two brothers, like that) to these groups that speak a language that 
only a thousand people in the whole world use, to live with them and learn 
their language, and eventually to translate the Bible into it.  A family I know 
did that with the Kogi indians in Colombia - that was a whole family, parents 
and I think three children - and when one of them came back on furlough I 
remember a discussion I had with him about the difficulties of translation.  He 
of course was uncomfortably aware of the impossibility of doing it perfectly, 
and I in my youth (I had been a serious Christian only a couple years, I think) 
tried to reässure him that God will protect His words.  I didn't convince him, 
and of course now that I'm older and can read several languages I see more 
clearly what he must have worried about constantly.

I knew of course that the story doesn't say two of everything.  I did ~not~ 
know that it used a word restricting it to mammals.  Every day something new.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Despite the Humvee's ruggedness, when it's cruising on the highway, the ride 
is surprisingly similar to that of a full-size luxury sedan being dragged 
across a boulder field on its roof.  -Dave Barry, 2001-01-07 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 04:20

ITYM טְּהוֹרָ֗ה.

Also, the sentence uses the word טְּהוֹרָ֗ה, which limits it to mammals.

"All translations are lies."


From: David Spiegel [0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:03 PM

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each species of 
"clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate to English. It is 
usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

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Re: Help for US Talent

[Chuck Kreiter]

Personally, I'm tired of getting recruiters emailing and/or calling (yes, they 
do both) about an urgent need for a 25+ year experience position that maxes out 
at $40/hour 1099.  So, those, I do not care if their job is harder or not.  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bob Bridges
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 4:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Help for US Talent

Am I missing something?  Why the interest in making life hard for recruiters?  
Ok, I'm a contractor so my continued employment depends on their existence.  
Still, why?

If I thought that you normally work under those conditions - $125/hr or outside 
the US half the time - then of course you're just stating up front one of your 
requirements.  From the tone, though, it sounds like you're trying to make them 
unhappy for the fun of it.  Is there something going on here that I'm not aware 
of?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I have never been hurt by anything I didn't say.  -Calvin Coolidge */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
rpinion865
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 16:01

I ask them, as a US citizen with a legal residence in the State of Tennessee, 
may I work remotely, outside of the USA for at least six months a year? I 
usually never hear from them again.

 Original Message 
On Aug 14, 2023, 3:52 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:

> Every time a recruiter calls me I have a sure way get rid of them and 
> increase what they need to pay. They ask me if I'm Steve, and I say 
> yes Then I tell them "Are you calling me with a job that pays $125/HR
> W2 or $210,000 perm?" You hear them fade or die on the other end then 
> I hang up.

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Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Bill Johnson]

Even a book listed as fiction in the library has some elements of truth. The 
Bible is fiction. Christians are atheists when you bring up Roman, Greek, 
Aztec, Norse, or other non Christian gods. As with the aforementioned gods, 
they don’t exist either.

Nobody ever seems to address the crusades in which Christians killed hundreds 
of thousands and perhaps millions. And nobody addresses the pedophile ring 
called the Catholic Church.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023, 4:10 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Nonsense; the Bible is a lot of things, including History. The fun starts when 
people argue about which parts are what. There's lot's of allegory, metaphor 
poetry, etc., but there are also things that match archaeological data.

I have this fantasy of a biblical literalist trying to explain how every word 
of Song of Songs is literally true


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

The Bible is 100% fiction. Christians have killed and molested more people than 
anyone. Pro life?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 14, 2023, 10:04 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each
species of "clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate
to English. It is usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

Regards,
David

On 2023-08-14 21:16, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes I do.
>
> It has also been seen as a depiction of nomadic conflict, the struggle for 
> land and resources (and divine favour) between nomadic herders and sedentary 
> farmers. The Academic theologian Joseph Blenkinsopp holds that Cain and Abel 
> are symbolic rather than real.
> And Noah never collected 2 of every species.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 9:12 PM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> You said: "... Cain & Abel which is fictional. ..."
> Do you have proof for this assertion?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-08-14 20:02, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also worked 
>> with people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into IT 
>> because they were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10 
>> posters here a question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster 
>> thinks his answer is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe 
>> system programmers, yet the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop 
>> eliminated the mainframe, mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts 
>> that say otherwise. Plus, the security on the platform is unmatched. Hackers 
>> would love to be able to hack the mainframe since that’s where the money is. 
>> Banks being the big one.
>>
>> I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the Korean 
>> conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the Peloponnesian 
>> war, from Cain vs Abel?”
>>
>> I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life Christians” 
>> massacred hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200 years. But did 
>> mention Cain & Abel which is fictional.
>>
>>
>> Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who can 
>> barely breathe and chew gum.
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
>> wrote:
>>
>> A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name Johnson by
>> nature.
>>
>> Yeah, I found this on the internet too:
>>
>> Noun[edit
>> ]
>>
>> *johnson* (*plural* *johnsons
>> *)
>>
>>      1. (slang ) 
>>Penis
>>      . quotations ▼synonym ▲Synonyms:
>>      *see* Thesaurus:penis 
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:33 AM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:
>>
>>> Way to miss the point Bill. Do you write programs that miss out things
>>> because they can be easily found on the internet?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:23 AM Bill Johnson <
>>> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
 https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story




 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


 On Monday, August 14, 2023,

Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Crawford Robert C (Contractor)]

I also have to wonder if MS-DOS would've taken off at all if IBM had kept it.  
In the 20th century I remember a lot of companies, Microsoft and Apple 
included, styling themselves as IBM "giant killers."  They were cool, 
(relatively) inexpensive and bringing computing to the masses.  IBM, on the 
other hand, was stodgy, old fashioned  and, for lack of a better term, evil.  
I'm thinking of Apple's "1984" commercial.

For those reasons, people might have rejected MS-DOS just because IBM owned it 
and glommed onto something like DR-DOS. 

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 3:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

I sort of agree, but I think underneath we still disagree.  I agree that IBM 
didn't think the PC software was worth developing.  And if they had held onto 
MS-DOS and approached its development in the same way that Microsoft did, sure, 
they'd probably be worth bazillions.

(Probably.  I suppose there's market perception involved here too; maybe 
customers accepted software from Microsoft in numbers that they wouldn't have 
from IBM.  But I don't know how to evaluate that, so lets pretend it's not an 
issue.)

Where we may disagree is in your belief - what I think is your belief - that 
IBM was therefore short-sighted to let it go.  What I was hinting at a week or 
so ago is that IBM was ~always~ going to judge that MS-DOS wasn't worth their 
bother, and they were never going to develop it as Microsoft did, and therefore 
(in a sense) they did the sensible thing by letting go of it, letting someone 
else take it and run with it.  They did themselves no harm because they would 
never have done it themselves - and incidentally in the process they did the 
rest of us an enormous favor.  And did themselves the same favor, because I can 
be certain without looking that every employee at IBM now has a powerful PC on 
his desk, which would not have happened had they kept control of DOS themselves.

If IBM were a different company, sure, maybe that different company should have 
held on to MS-DOS.  But as it is ...

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* [Your patient] has not yet been anything like long enough with the Enemy to 
have any real humility yet.  What he says, even on his knees, about his own 
sinfulness is all parrot talk.  At bottom, he still believes he has run up a 
very favourable credit balance in the Enemy's ledger by allowing himself to be 
converted  -advice to a tempter from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jon 
Perryman
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 15:23

I'm saying that if IBM retained control in MS-DOS and put in the same effort as 
z/OS, they could have been worth bazillions. The problem is that IBM has always 
been half-assed in the PC market. Bill Gates didn't do anything groundbreaking. 
MS-Windows came 6 years after Mac. The mouse & GUI was invented by Xerox before 
1973. These corporations simply considered PC's chump change not worth the 
bother. IBM and Xerox failed because they considered PC more of a nuisance than 
a goldmine.

> --- On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 06:56:39 AM PDT, Bob Bridges 
>  wrote:
> Wait, MS-DOS is what you were talking about, before?  You're 
> suggesting that if IBM had hung on to MS-DOS at the time, they would now be 
> worth bazillions instead of Microsoft?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

> Nobody ever seems to address the crusades

Maybe not in fundie circles, but lots of people are aware of how evil they were.

> And nobody addresses the pedophile ring called the Catholic Church.

They hardly have a monopoly. Anywhere adults are in a position of authority 
over children they need to be held accountable, be they religious or secular. 
I've read disturbing stories about, e.g., coaches, doctors, NCOs, officers, 
police, teachers, troop leaders.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 9:27 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

Even a book listed as fiction in the library has some elements of truth. The 
Bible is fiction. Christians are atheists when you bring up Roman, Greek, 
Aztec, Norse, or other non Christian gods. As with the aforementioned gods, 
they don’t exist either.

Nobody ever seems to address the crusades in which Christians killed hundreds 
of thousands and perhaps millions. And nobody addresses the pedophile ring 
called the Catholic Church.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023, 4:10 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Nonsense; the Bible is a lot of things, including History. The fun starts when 
people argue about which parts are what. There's lot's of allegory, metaphor 
poetry, etc., but there are also things that match archaeological data.

I have this fantasy of a biblical literalist trying to explain how every word 
of Song of Songs is literally true


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

The Bible is 100% fiction. Christians have killed and molested more people than 
anyone. Pro life?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 14, 2023, 10:04 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each
species of "clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate
to English. It is usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

Regards,
David

On 2023-08-14 21:16, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes I do.
>
> It has also been seen as a depiction of nomadic conflict, the struggle for 
> land and resources (and divine favour) between nomadic herders and sedentary 
> farmers. The Academic theologian Joseph Blenkinsopp holds that Cain and Abel 
> are symbolic rather than real.
> And Noah never collected 2 of every species.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 9:12 PM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> You said: "... Cain & Abel which is fictional. ..."
> Do you have proof for this assertion?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-08-14 20:02, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also worked 
>> with people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into IT 
>> because they were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10 
>> posters here a question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster 
>> thinks his answer is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe 
>> system programmers, yet the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop 
>> eliminated the mainframe, mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts 
>> that say otherwise. Plus, the security on the platform is unmatched. Hackers 
>> would love to be able to hack the mainframe since that’s where the money is. 
>> Banks being the big one.
>>
>> I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the Korean 
>> conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the Peloponnesian 
>> war, from Cain vs Abel?”
>>
>> I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life Christians” 
>> massacred hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200 years. But did 
>> mention Cain & Abel which is fictional.
>>
>>
>> Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who can 
>> barely breathe and chew gum.
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
>> wrote:
>>
>> A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name Johnson by
>> nature.
>>
>> Yeah, I found this on the internet too:
>>
>> Noun[edit
>> ]
>>
>> *johnson* (*plural* *johnsons
>> 

Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Seymour J Metz]

1984? You mean when Apple announced a system that was less open the IBM's? Are 
you sure that it isn't Apple who is "Big Brother"?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Crawford Robert C (Contractor) <04e08f385650-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 9:30 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

I also have to wonder if MS-DOS would've taken off at all if IBM had kept it.  
In the 20th century I remember a lot of companies, Microsoft and Apple 
included, styling themselves as IBM "giant killers."  They were cool, 
(relatively) inexpensive and bringing computing to the masses.  IBM, on the 
other hand, was stodgy, old fashioned  and, for lack of a better term, evil.  
I'm thinking of Apple's "1984" commercial.

For those reasons, people might have rejected MS-DOS just because IBM owned it 
and glommed onto something like DR-DOS.

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 3:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

I sort of agree, but I think underneath we still disagree.  I agree that IBM 
didn't think the PC software was worth developing.  And if they had held onto 
MS-DOS and approached its development in the same way that Microsoft did, sure, 
they'd probably be worth bazillions.

(Probably.  I suppose there's market perception involved here too; maybe 
customers accepted software from Microsoft in numbers that they wouldn't have 
from IBM.  But I don't know how to evaluate that, so lets pretend it's not an 
issue.)

Where we may disagree is in your belief - what I think is your belief - that 
IBM was therefore short-sighted to let it go.  What I was hinting at a week or 
so ago is that IBM was ~always~ going to judge that MS-DOS wasn't worth their 
bother, and they were never going to develop it as Microsoft did, and therefore 
(in a sense) they did the sensible thing by letting go of it, letting someone 
else take it and run with it.  They did themselves no harm because they would 
never have done it themselves - and incidentally in the process they did the 
rest of us an enormous favor.  And did themselves the same favor, because I can 
be certain without looking that every employee at IBM now has a powerful PC on 
his desk, which would not have happened had they kept control of DOS themselves.

If IBM were a different company, sure, maybe that different company should have 
held on to MS-DOS.  But as it is ...

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* [Your patient] has not yet been anything like long enough with the Enemy to 
have any real humility yet.  What he says, even on his knees, about his own 
sinfulness is all parrot talk.  At bottom, he still believes he has run up a 
very favourable credit balance in the Enemy's ledger by allowing himself to be 
converted  -advice to a tempter from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jon 
Perryman
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 15:23

I'm saying that if IBM retained control in MS-DOS and put in the same effort as 
z/OS, they could have been worth bazillions. The problem is that IBM has always 
been half-assed in the PC market. Bill Gates didn't do anything groundbreaking. 
MS-Windows came 6 years after Mac. The mouse & GUI was invented by Xerox before 
1973. These corporations simply considered PC's chump change not worth the 
bother. IBM and Xerox failed because they considered PC more of a nuisance than 
a goldmine.

> --- On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 06:56:39 AM PDT, Bob Bridges 
>  wrote:
> Wait, MS-DOS is what you were talking about, before?  You're
> suggesting that if IBM had hung on to MS-DOS at the time, they would now be 
> worth bazillions instead of Microsoft?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Bill Johnson]

A 13 year old girl in Mississippi was forced to give birth to her rapist baby. 
All because christofascist want to force their incorrect interpretation of the 
bible onto everyone.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/14/mississippi-abortion-ban-girl-raped-gives-birth




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023, 9:28 AM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Even a book listed as fiction in the library has some elements of truth. The 
Bible is fiction. Christians are atheists when you bring up Roman, Greek, 
Aztec, Norse, or other non Christian gods. As with the aforementioned gods, 
they don’t exist either.

Nobody ever seems to address the crusades in which Christians killed hundreds 
of thousands and perhaps millions. And nobody addresses the pedophile ring 
called the Catholic Church.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023, 4:10 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Nonsense; the Bible is a lot of things, including History. The fun starts when 
people argue about which parts are what. There's lot's of allegory, metaphor 
poetry, etc., but there are also things that match archaeological data.

I have this fantasy of a biblical literalist trying to explain how every word 
of Song of Songs is literally true


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

The Bible is 100% fiction. Christians have killed and molested more people than 
anyone. Pro life?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 14, 2023, 10:04 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each
species of "clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate
to English. It is usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

Regards,
David

On 2023-08-14 21:16, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes I do.
>
> It has also been seen as a depiction of nomadic conflict, the struggle for 
> land and resources (and divine favour) between nomadic herders and sedentary 
> farmers. The Academic theologian Joseph Blenkinsopp holds that Cain and Abel 
> are symbolic rather than real.
> And Noah never collected 2 of every species.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 9:12 PM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> You said: "... Cain & Abel which is fictional. ..."
> Do you have proof for this assertion?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-08-14 20:02, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also worked 
>> with people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into IT 
>> because they were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10 
>> posters here a question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster 
>> thinks his answer is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe 
>> system programmers, yet the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop 
>> eliminated the mainframe, mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts 
>> that say otherwise. Plus, the security on the platform is unmatched. Hackers 
>> would love to be able to hack the mainframe since that’s where the money is. 
>> Banks being the big one.
>>
>> I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the Korean 
>> conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the Peloponnesian 
>> war, from Cain vs Abel?”
>>
>> I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life Christians” 
>> massacred hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200 years. But did 
>> mention Cain & Abel which is fictional.
>>
>>
>> Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who can 
>> barely breathe and chew gum.
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
>> wrote:
>>
>> A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name Johnson by
>> nature.
>>
>> Yeah, I found this on the internet too:
>>
>> Noun[edit
>> ]
>>
>> *johnson* (*plural* *johnsons
>> *)
>>
>>      1. (slang ) 
>>Penis
>>      . quotations ▼synonym ▲Synonyms:
>>      *see* Thesaurus:penis 
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:33 AM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:
>>
>

Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Paul Beesley]

Can you PLEASE take non-mainframe related discussion elsewhere
Thank you


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: 15 August 2023 14:53
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

Caution: External email. Do not open attachments or click links, unless this 
email comes from a known sender and you know the content is safe.


A 13 year old girl in Mississippi was forced to give birth to her rapist baby. 
All because christofascist want to force their incorrect interpretation of the 
bible onto everyone.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/14/mississippi-abortion-ban-girl-raped-gives-birth




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023, 9:28 AM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Even a book listed as fiction in the library has some elements of truth. The 
Bible is fiction. Christians are atheists when you bring up Roman, Greek, 
Aztec, Norse, or other non Christian gods. As with the aforementioned gods, 
they don’t exist either.

Nobody ever seems to address the crusades in which Christians killed hundreds 
of thousands and perhaps millions. And nobody addresses the pedophile ring 
called the Catholic Church.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023, 4:10 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Nonsense; the Bible is a lot of things, including History. The fun starts when 
people argue about which parts are what. There's lot's of allegory, metaphor 
poetry, etc., but there are also things that match archaeological data.

I have this fantasy of a biblical literalist trying to explain how every word 
of Song of Songs is literally true


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

The Bible is 100% fiction. Christians have killed and molested more people than 
anyone. Pro life?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 14, 2023, 10:04 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each species of 
"clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate to English. It is 
usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

Regards,
David

On 2023-08-14 21:16, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes I do.
>
> It has also been seen as a depiction of nomadic conflict, the struggle for 
> land and resources (and divine favour) between nomadic herders and sedentary 
> farmers. The Academic theologian Joseph Blenkinsopp holds that Cain and Abel 
> are symbolic rather than real.
> And Noah never collected 2 of every species.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 9:12 PM, David Spiegel 
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> You said: "... Cain & Abel which is fictional. ..."
> Do you have proof for this assertion?
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-08-14 20:02, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also worked 
>> with people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into IT 
>> because they were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10 
>> posters here a question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster 
>> thinks his answer is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe 
>> system programmers, yet the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop 
>> eliminated the mainframe, mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts 
>> that say otherwise. Plus, the security on the platform is unmatched. Hackers 
>> would love to be able to hack the mainframe since that’s where the money is. 
>> Banks being the big one.
>>
>> I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the Korean 
>> conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the Peloponnesian 
>> war, from Cain vs Abel?”
>>
>> I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life Christians” 
>> massacred hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200 years. But did 
>> mention Cain & Abel which is fictional.
>>
>>
>> Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who can 
>> barely breathe and chew gum.
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
>> wrote:
>>
>> A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name
>> Johnson by nature.
>>
>> Yeah, I found this on the internet too:
>>
>> Noun[edit
>> > .wiktionary.org%2Fw%2Findex.

Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Crawford Robert C (Contractor)]

...and that's one of the ironies of this whole thing.  And why did Apple keep 
their systems closed?  For control, security and (wait for it) money.  Sound 
familiar?


Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 8:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

1984? You mean when Apple announced a system that was less open the IBM's? Are 
you sure that it isn't Apple who is "Big Brother"?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Crawford Robert C (Contractor) <04e08f385650-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 9:30 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

I also have to wonder if MS-DOS would've taken off at all if IBM had kept it.  
In the 20th century I remember a lot of companies, Microsoft and Apple 
included, styling themselves as IBM "giant killers."  They were cool, 
(relatively) inexpensive and bringing computing to the masses.  IBM, on the 
other hand, was stodgy, old fashioned  and, for lack of a better term, evil.  
I'm thinking of Apple's "1984" commercial.

For those reasons, people might have rejected MS-DOS just because IBM owned it 
and glommed onto something like DR-DOS.

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 3:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

I sort of agree, but I think underneath we still disagree.  I agree that IBM 
didn't think the PC software was worth developing.  And if they had held onto 
MS-DOS and approached its development in the same way that Microsoft did, sure, 
they'd probably be worth bazillions.

(Probably.  I suppose there's market perception involved here too; maybe 
customers accepted software from Microsoft in numbers that they wouldn't have 
from IBM.  But I don't know how to evaluate that, so lets pretend it's not an 
issue.)

Where we may disagree is in your belief - what I think is your belief - that 
IBM was therefore short-sighted to let it go.  What I was hinting at a week or 
so ago is that IBM was ~always~ going to judge that MS-DOS wasn't worth their 
bother, and they were never going to develop it as Microsoft did, and therefore 
(in a sense) they did the sensible thing by letting go of it, letting someone 
else take it and run with it.  They did themselves no harm because they would 
never have done it themselves - and incidentally in the process they did the 
rest of us an enormous favor.  And did themselves the same favor, because I can 
be certain without looking that every employee at IBM now has a powerful PC on 
his desk, which would not have happened had they kept control of DOS themselves.

If IBM were a different company, sure, maybe that different company should have 
held on to MS-DOS.  But as it is ...

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* [Your patient] has not yet been anything like long enough with the Enemy to 
have any real humility yet.  What he says, even on his knees, about his own 
sinfulness is all parrot talk.  At bottom, he still believes he has run up a 
very favourable credit balance in the Enemy's ledger by allowing himself to be 
converted  -advice to a tempter from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jon 
Perryman
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 15:23

I'm saying that if IBM retained control in MS-DOS and put in the same effort as 
z/OS, they could have been worth bazillions. The problem is that IBM has always 
been half-assed in the PC market. Bill Gates didn't do anything groundbreaking. 
MS-Windows came 6 years after Mac. The mouse & GUI was invented by Xerox before 
1973. These corporations simply considered PC's chump change not worth the 
bother. IBM and Xerox failed because they considered PC more of a nuisance than 
a goldmine.

> --- On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 06:56:39 AM PDT, Bob Bridges 
>  wrote:
> Wait, MS-DOS is what you were talking about, before?  You're 
> suggesting that if IBM had hung on to MS-DOS at the time, they would now be 
> worth bazillions instead of Microsoft?

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Re: Help for US Talent

[Steve Beaver]

Yesterday I sent this to IBM Mainframe and RACF Discussions (See Below)

Evidently several people from Mainframe and RACF groups have begun using
this
Little script.

I  continue to use this script and the off-shore recruiter;  Well you can
hear them
Just die on the phone.  They continue on their script and they tell me what
they
Can do monetarily then I tell them they are $50/HR low or whatever.  Then I
wish
them good Luck and hang up  

Steve 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Every time a recruiter calls me I have a sure way get rid of them and
increase what they need to pay.

They ask me if I'm Steve, and I say yes 

Then I tell them "Are you calling me with a job that pays $125/HR W2 or
$210,000 perm?"

You hear them fade or die on the other end then I hang up.

 

 

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Re: Help for US Talent

[rpinion865]

I have had some off-shore recruiters ask for my SSN and birthdate.  You can 
imagine how far that goes.




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

--- Original Message ---
On Tuesday, August 15th, 2023 at 10:18 AM, Steve Beaver 
<050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


> Yesterday I sent this to IBM Mainframe and RACF Discussions (See Below)
> 
> Evidently several people from Mainframe and RACF groups have begun using
> this
> Little script.
> 
> I continue to use this script and the off-shore recruiter; Well you can
> hear them
> Just die on the phone. They continue on their script and they tell me what
> they
> Can do monetarily then I tell them they are $50/HR low or whatever. Then I
> wish
> them good Luck and hang up
> 
> Steve
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> Every time a recruiter calls me I have a sure way get rid of them and
> increase what they need to pay.
> 
> They ask me if I'm Steve, and I say yes
> 
> Then I tell them "Are you calling me with a job that pays $125/HR W2 or
> $210,000 perm?"
> 
> You hear them fade or die on the other end then I hang up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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Re: Help for US Talent

[Michael Watkins]

Ha! When I was last looking for a job as a storage manager on the z/OS 
platform, a recruiter approached me with a position where I'd be responsible 
for renting out 10' x 10' storage units to people who'd already filled their 
garages with belongings they could not part with.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 4:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Help for US Talent

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Texas Comptroller's email 
system.
DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you expect them from the sender 
and know the content is safe.

Why do you want to get rid of them? If a recruiter calls, I politely say that 
I'm not interested at this time.
Depending on the context, I may politely explain that assembler programmer and 
assembly line technician are very different skill sets, and that the skills 
don't transfer well in either direction. No, I did not make this up, and it 
isn't a one-time thing.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Beaver [050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 3:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Help for US Talent

Every time a recruiter calls me I have a sure way get rid of them and increase 
what they need to pay.
They ask me if I'm Steve, and I say yes
Then I tell them "Are you calling me with a job that pays $125/HR W2 or 
$210,000 perm?"
You hear them fade or die on the other end then I hang up.

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Re: z/OS users

[Phil Smith III]

Bruce Hewson wrote:
>fyi - a quick check shows approx 200K users defined.  Is that a big enough 
>number?

Wow! It sure is. How many of those represent real users who log on, and how 
many represent real users who access using something else?

I'm really not going much of anywhere with this, but I think it's useful info 
to have to say "This is how much the platform still matters".


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Has anyone

[Steve Beaver]

Has anyone broken down and bought

Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Steve 

 


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Re: z/OS users

[Grant Taylor]

On 8/15/23 10:12 AM, Phil Smith III wrote:
Wow! It sure is. How many of those represent real users who log on, 
and how many represent real users who access using something else?


+1

I'm really not going much of anywhere with this, but I think it's 
useful info to have to say "This is how much the platform still 
matters".


I too find the rough numbers interesting to hear / learn about.



Grant. . . .

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Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Mary Kay]

Mary Kay


> On Aug 14, 2023, at 6:43 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:
> 
> IBM never showed enough interest or vision in microcomputer futures.
> 
> I quit IBM in 1979 to work with some former colleagues on microcomputer
> software development. My IBM manager would have walked me if I had been
> joining a competitor. This was the rule of the day. He said to me, "I don't
> ever see IBM getting into that market, you can work out your notice period"
> , (4 weeks).
> 
> At that time, there was no IBM PC, IBM was DP or OP (Data processing or
> Office products). I worked for OP in software implementation for internal
> systems. DP always assumed the senior position when bidding for sales. We
> had the Series/1, System 34/38, Photocopiers, Selectric etc. Not hard to
> see why IBM had no futurist identifying the "personal computer". It was
> monolithic thinking. That's the SNA mindset, one big hub with dumb
> terminals. It worked well but missed a lot of potential for small business
> and artisans.
> 
> So we as a small business took on the challenge. We had CP/M, MP/M, Apple
> Basic, NorthStar Horizon, Cromemco, early MicroFocus COBOL and 8080
> Assembler to master. Long nights reading Dr Dobbs journal for hints. It was
> challenging and we found it hard to make money. There was no venture
> capital, all the money was still in box shifting. One big customer saw our
> Catering stock control system and said, "Is it 3270 compatible?". LOL.
> 
> After a few years of trying, we went back to mainframe consulting and that
> served me well for another forty years.
> 
> Somebody once said, "It's the vision thing". That and luck and timing.
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 5:15 AM Grant Taylor <
>> 023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 8/14/23 3:16 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
>>> I sort of agree, but I think underneath we still disagree.  I agree
>>> that IBM didn't think the PC software was worth developing.  And if
>>> they had held onto MS-DOS and approached its development in the same
>>> way that Microsoft did, sure, they'd probably be worth bazillions.
>> 
>> My hang up is that -- as I understand it -- DOS was /never/ IBM's to
>> start with.
>> 
>> DOS was /Microsoft's/.
>> 
>> Or are you suggesting that IBM should have purchased exclusive rights to
>> use / distribute / etc DOS from Microsoft?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Grant. . . .
>> 
>> --
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Wayne V. Bickerdike
> 
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Re: Has anyone

[Farley, Peter]

I’ve had Office 365 for years now, I find it useful to keep paying the yearly 
fee because they upgrade the individual components without me needing to 
concern myself with which version is current today and I can share it with my 
family for no extra charge.

In prior times when I consulted for a living I did always buy the 
“Professional” version because it included  Access.

A little time spent with Mr. Google says that the “Plus” version may be for 
“business volume purchases only”, not for individual purchase, but I may be 
mis-interpreting what I read.

HTH

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Has anyone



Has anyone broken down and bought



Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus



Regards,



Steve

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Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Doug Fuerst]

TAKE THIS CRAP ELSEWHERE!!!

Doug Fuerst



-- Original Message --

From "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>

To IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date 8/15/2023 9:53:14 AM
Subject Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe


A 13 year old girl in Mississippi was forced to give birth to her rapist baby. 
All because christofascist want to force their incorrect interpretation of the 
bible onto everyone.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/14/mississippi-abortion-ban-girl-raped-gives-birth




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023, 9:28 AM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Even a book listed as fiction in the library has some elements of truth. The 
Bible is fiction. Christians are atheists when you bring up Roman, Greek, 
Aztec, Norse, or other non Christian gods. As with the aforementioned gods, 
they don’t exist either.

Nobody ever seems to address the crusades in which Christians killed hundreds 
of thousands and perhaps millions. And nobody addresses the pedophile ring 
called the Catholic Church.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023, 4:10 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

Nonsense; the Bible is a lot of things, including History. The fun starts when 
people argue about which parts are what. There's lot's of allegory, metaphor 
poetry, etc., but there are also things that match archaeological data.

I have this fantasy of a biblical literalist trying to explain how every word 
of Song of Songs is literally true


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

The Bible is 100% fiction. Christians have killed and molested more people than 
anyone. Pro life?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 14, 2023, 10:04 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each
species of "clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate
to English. It is usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

Regards,
David

On 2023-08-14 21:16, Bill Johnson wrote:

 Yes I do.

 It has also been seen as a depiction of nomadic conflict, the struggle for 
land and resources (and divine favour) between nomadic herders and sedentary 
farmers. The Academic theologian Joseph Blenkinsopp holds that Cain and Abel 
are symbolic rather than real.
 And Noah never collected 2 of every species.


 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


 On Monday, August 14, 2023, 9:12 PM, David Spiegel 
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 Hi Bill,
 You said: "... Cain & Abel which is fictional. ..."
 Do you have proof for this assertion?

 Regards,
 David

 On 2023-08-14 20:02, Bill Johnson wrote:

 I worked with many brilliant computer people over the years. I also worked 
with people like most of the usual posters here. People who got into IT because 
they were white and breathing. Many from the military. Ask 10 posters here a 
question and you get 4-5 different answers and every poster thinks his answer 
is absolute. There are literally thousands of mainframe system programmers, yet 
the 20-30 here will swear because their tiny shop eliminated the mainframe, 
mainframes are dying. Even when faced with facts that say otherwise. Plus, the 
security on the platform is unmatched. Hackers would love to be able to hack 
the mainframe since that’s where the money is. Banks being the big one.

 I notice Bob Bridges listed these. “Did we learnanything from the Korean 
conflict, from the American civil war, the 100 Years' war, the Peloponnesian 
war, from Cain vs Abel?”

 I’m shocked Bob didn’t mention the Crusades. Where “pro life Christians” massacred 
hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions over 200 years. But did mention Cain 
& Abel which is fictional.


 Retirement is wonderful. I no longer have to deal with coworkers who can 
barely breathe and chew gum.


 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


 On Monday, August 14, 2023, 7:37 PM, Wayne Bickerdike  
wrote:

 A bigger head beats a bigger mouth every time. Johnson by name Johnson by
 nature.

 Yeah, I found this on the internet too:

 Noun[edit
 ]

 *johnson* (*plural* *johnsons
 *)

  1. (slang ) Penis
  . quotations ▼synonym

Re: Has anyone

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

I bought a second hand license at Gamers Outlet for very little UKpounds.
But it has not broken down😊.
Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Beaver
Sent: 15 August 2023 16:19
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Has anyone

Has anyone broken down and bought

Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Steve 

 


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Microsoft office

[Steve Beaver]

One thing that absolutely scares the hell out of me is converting Office
2010

To any  of the new Office Products,

 

Has anyone converted?  What Problems did you have?

 

 

 


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Re: Has anyone

[Seymour J Metz]

I find OpenOffice and LibreOffice perfectly adequate.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:32 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I’ve had Office 365 for years now, I find it useful to keep paying the yearly 
fee because they upgrade the individual components without me needing to 
concern myself with which version is current today and I can share it with my 
family for no extra charge.

In prior times when I consulted for a living I did always buy the 
“Professional” version because it included  Access.

A little time spent with Mr. Google says that the “Plus” version may be for 
“business volume purchases only”, not for individual purchase, but I may be 
mis-interpreting what I read.

HTH

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Has anyone



Has anyone broken down and bought



Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus



Regards,



Steve

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Re: Has anyone

[Matt Hogstrom]

I also use Office 365 … best bet for families with kids that need access as 
well.

Side note, I also pay for Creative Cloud which is far more economical than the 
individual bits.

Matt Hogstrom

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom



> On Aug 15, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Steve Beaver 
> <050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone broken down and bought
> 
> Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus


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Re: z/OS users

[Tony Harminc]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 at 11:12, Phil Smith III  wrote:
>
> Bruce Hewson wrote:
> >fyi - a quick check shows approx 200K users defined.  Is that a big enough 
> >number?
>
> Wow! It sure is. How many of those represent real users who log on, and how 
> many represent real users who access using something else?
>
> I'm really not going much of anywhere with this, but I think it's useful info 
> to have to say "This is how much the platform still matters".

Until not too many years ago one of the large Canadian banks used
software from my then employer to manage logons for web banking. Every
one of their online banking and investment users was assigned a userid
in the security system. Given the banking landscape in Canada
(basically five large banks with 80% of the market, and many smaller
players with the other 20%), the population (let's say ~30M at the
time), and assuming even half the population has a bank account
distributed evenly across the players, we come up with *at least* a
million users per bank, and probably many more. (I believe this bank
assigned a userid to every customer, even though of course some would
continue to use paper cheques and visit their branch and never
actually log on.)

Each of these users actively logged on to web banking would have a
session on z/OS, an ACEE and associated in-storage data built, and so
on for the duration of their session. Of course these users weren't
logging on to TSO or any similar high resource subsystem, and they
weren't using 3270s. But neither were they just sending individual
transactions through to be authenticated - they actually had a session
for the duration of their web logon. On a busy day we would process
over 1.5M logons.

This bank eventually moved to some other system - either a front end
to z/OS or a completely off-platform solution - that I know nothing
about. But it was certainly possible to have that magnitude of users
in the security system, and whatever number of active sessions one can
infer from that.

(Sorry for the wishy-washy wording above. I know better numbers and
details, but while it's some years ago I still don't want to identify
the bank unambiguously.)

Tony H.

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Re: Has anyone

[Tom Marchant]

Same here. I use Libre office. I prefer it over Microsoft office.

-- 
Tom Marchant

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 15:49:13 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>I find OpenOffice and LibreOffice perfectly adequate.

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Re: [EXT] Re: Cloud may be overpriced compared to on-premises systems

[Pommier, Rex]

The troll who said he would stop commenting on here a few months ago?  My vote 
would be to have his account tagged as restricted from posting.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Allan Staller
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 7:16 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re: Cloud may be overpriced compared to 
on-premises systems

Classification: Confidential

To all,
Stop feeding the troll and maybe he'll go away

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Re: Has anyone

[Steve Thompson]

I have both M/S office products and Libre Office on W10 & W11 
laptops. The reason for that is, clients are tied to M/S so I 
have to use Office 365 for interfacing with them. I use Libre 
office when I do not want M/S to use One Drive, or otherwise 
don't need M/S software (We have our own file server which we use 
in-house).


So beware. If you turn off One Drive, M/S Office products will 
not autosave (in my experience with W10 or W11). They will not 
recover if M/S decides you need to reboot to finish updates.


Try to get M/S Support to see/recognize this as a problem. One 
Drive is common to M/S office apps and I think the bug is in One 
Drive. It wants to write to local disk, and then send your data 
into the M/S cloud.


But back to Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office 
products do (Word, & XL are what I use). Word is better at 
formatting documents than is Libre office in my experience. And 
XL has more features than Libre.






Steve Thompson

On 8/15/2023 1:22 PM, Tom Marchant wrote:

Same here. I use Libre office. I prefer it over Microsoft office.



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How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says 
(https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):

The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other types of 
programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.

Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data stack 
specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any program running 
in MVS(tm).

My question is how can the data stack be used to share information between an 
exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or Reference.


What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program to a 
calling exec. The constraints are:


  *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
  *   ISPF may not be used
  *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
  *   No assembler
  *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
  *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same constraints.

So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) > COBOL 
program

Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with LINKMVS, 
it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is easy! I know it 
is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the way I describe. Hence 
my problem.

Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a REXX 
variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't be 
called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way to pass 
back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address from the 
COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.

(I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times, passing back 
the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to that I 
have a better last-resort work-around.)


The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data to or 
from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the data stack?

__
Michael Schmitt | DXC Apps Development | MassMutual
(737) 910-8248 | michael.schm...@dxc.com



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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Seymour J Metz]

GETLINE and PUTGET let you read from the stack, if you're comfortable writing 
in assembly language.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says 
(https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):

The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other types of 
programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.

Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data stack 
specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any program running 
in MVS(tm).

My question is how can the data stack be used to share information between an 
exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or Reference.


What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program to a 
calling exec. The constraints are:


  *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
  *   ISPF may not be used
  *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
  *   No assembler
  *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
  *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same constraints.

So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) > COBOL 
program

Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with LINKMVS, 
it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is easy! I know it 
is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the way I describe. Hence 
my problem.

Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a REXX 
variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't be 
called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way to pass 
back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address from the 
COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.

(I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times, passing back 
the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to that I 
have a better last-resort work-around.)


The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data to or 
from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the data stack?

__
Michael Schmitt | DXC Apps Development | MassMutual
(737) 910-8248 | michael.schm...@dxc.com



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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Jack Zukt]

You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
>
> The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
>
> Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> program running in MVS(tm).
>
> My question is how can the data stack be used to share information between
> an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> Reference.
>
>
> What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program to
> a calling exec. The constraints are:
>
>
>   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
>   *   ISPF may not be used
>   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
>   *   No assembler
>   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
>   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same constraints.
>
> So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> COBOL program
>
> Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the way
> I describe. Hence my problem.
>
> Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a REXX
> variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't be
> called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way to
> pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address from
> the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.
>
> (I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times, passing
> back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
> that I have a better last-resort work-around.)
>
>
> The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data
> to or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the data
> stack?
>
> __
> Michael Schmitt | DXC Apps Development | MassMutual
> (737) 910-8248 | michael.schm...@dxc.com
>
>
>
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>

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Re: Certificate labels

[Phil Smith III]

Thanks to an off-list suggestion from Charles that I run a gsktrace, I've now 
proven to my (and his) satisfaction that it does the label lookup and 
then.never actually uses it after that. So at least I now understand the 
results, even if they're arguably not quite what it should be doing. Or at 
least the documentation could improve.


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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

That's my last-resort. I wanted to see if there's an alternative, and when I 
saw what the Users's Guide said about the data stack, I'm wondering what that 
actually means. Is it just that a program could write something to SYSTSIN?



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jack Zukt
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
>
> The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
>
> Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> program running in MVS(tm).
>
> My question is how can the data stack be used to share information between
> an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> Reference.
>
>
> What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program to
> a calling exec. The constraints are:
>
>
>   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
>   *   ISPF may not be used
>   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
>   *   No assembler
>   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
>   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same constraints.
>
> So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> COBOL program
>
> Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the way
> I describe. Hence my problem.
>
> Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a REXX
> variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't be
> called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way to
> pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address from
> the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.
>
> (I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times, passing
> back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
> that I have a better last-resort work-around.)
>
>
> The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data
> to or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the data
> stack?

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Jack Zukt]

If you assign a card punch on your Cobol program, where will it write to?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 19:15 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> That's my last-resort. I wanted to see if there's an alternative, and when
> I saw what the Users's Guide said about the data stack, I'm wondering what
> that actually means. Is it just that a program could write something to
> SYSTSIN?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jack Zukt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?
>
> You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
> not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
> the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
> in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
> Best wishes
> Jack
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
> wrote:
>
> > The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> > https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
> >
> > The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> > types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
> >
> > Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> > stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> > program running in MVS(tm).
> >
> > My question is how can the data stack be used to share information
> between
> > an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> > Reference.
> >
> >
> > What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program
> to
> > a calling exec. The constraints are:
> >
> >
> >   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
> >   *   ISPF may not be used
> >   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
> >   *   No assembler
> >   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
> >   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same
> constraints.
> >
> > So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> > COBOL program
> >
> > Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> > LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> > easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the
> way
> > I describe. Hence my problem.
> >
> > Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a
> REXX
> > variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't
> be
> > called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way
> to
> > pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address
> from
> > the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.
> >
> > (I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times,
> passing
> > back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
> > that I have a better last-resort work-around.)
> >
> >
> > The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data
> > to or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the
> data
> > stack?
>
> --
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>

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Re: z/OS users

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 09:41:03 AM PDT, Tony Harminc 
 >  wrote:

>> Bruce Hewson wrote:
>>fyi - a quick check shows approx 200K users defined.  Is that a big enough 
>>number?


> Until not too many years ago one of the large Canadian banks used

> software from my then employer to manage logons for web banking.

RACF performance is monitored by performance sysprog. Beating a RACF database 
to death is a common problem for businesses with hundreds of thousands of 
users. Having a secondary logon program that equates to 1 RACF user is seems to 
be the most common solution.

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:48:39 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:
>...
>What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program to a 
>calling exec. The constraints are:
>...
I.e. almost anything that's likely to work.  Why?
>...
>..., so the parm is one-way, and would have no way to pass back the 
> address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address from the COBOL 
> program in a return code; it will get truncated.
> 
PARM is two-way for many languages.  Does COBOL prohibit that?  TSO REXX 
supports
two-way as the caller, not as the subroutine.

Does CCOBOL provide access to the R1 value om entry?  That could work with
some creative pointer chasing.

>(I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times, passing 
>back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to that 
>I have a better last-resort work-around.)
>
You're desperate.  How about POSIX pipes (BPX1PIP, BPX4PIP)?

-- 
gil

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Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 06:30:51 AM PDT, Crawford Robert C 
 > (Contractor) wrote:
> I also have to wonder if MS-DOS would've taken off at all if IBM had kept it. 
>  


IBM has a track record of shooting themselves in the foot. Consider what they 
lost on the first day "The Cloud" was announced. They were involved in creating 
the cloud specifications and it read like a sales brochure for z/OS Sysplex. 
They remained silent instead of professing to be the first and only existing 
cloud from day 1. Of course the API was not available but the API is not an 
absolute requirement. After a couple of years, the specifications had changed 
radically because only IBM could meet the demands of the specification yet no 
one realizes could market themselves as the one true cloud.


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 06:30:51 AM PDT, Crawford Robert C 
(Contractor) <04e08f385650-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:  
 
  

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:48:39 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:
>...
>Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with LINKMVS, 
>it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is easy! I know it 
>is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the way I describe. Hence 
>my problem.
>
Those are two-way:
:
... The program can update the parameters it receives and return the 
updated values to the exec. ...

-- 
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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

If I DISPLAY something UPON SYSPUNCH it goes to the SYSPUNCH DD. Is that what 
you mean?


Meanwhile, I thought of passing through an environment variable. But as far as 
I can tell, the REXX exec has no way to read one.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jack Zukt
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If you assign a card punch on your Cobol program, where will it write to?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 19:15 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> That's my last-resort. I wanted to see if there's an alternative, and when
> I saw what the Users's Guide said about the data stack, I'm wondering what
> that actually means. Is it just that a program could write something to
> SYSTSIN?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jack Zukt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?
>
> You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
> not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
> the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
> in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
> Best wishes
> Jack
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
> wrote:
>
> > The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> > https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
> >
> > The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> > types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
> >
> > Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> > stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> > program running in MVS(tm).
> >
> > My question is how can the data stack be used to share information
> between
> > an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> > Reference.
> >
> >
> > What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program
> to
> > a calling exec. The constraints are:
> >
> >
> >   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
> >   *   ISPF may not be used
> >   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
> >   *   No assembler
> >   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
> >   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same
> constraints.
> >
> > So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> > COBOL program
> >
> > Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> > LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> > easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the
> way
> > I describe. Hence my problem.
> >
> > Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a
> REXX
> > variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't
> be
> > called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way
> to
> > pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address
> from
> > the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.
> >
> > (I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times,
> passing
> > back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
> > that I have a better last-resort work-around.)
> >
> >
> > The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data
> > to or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the
> data
> > stack?
>
> --
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Re: Certificate labels

[Peter Sylvester]

Hi,

it would be helpful, if you describe your scenario in more details:

Server has  some certS, signed by some cas.  (I skip possible intermediates). The CAs cert needs to 
be trustworthy buy the client.
So far there is no client cert involved.  If the server wants some client cert, it has to be 
configured to request it by sending a list of acceptable client CA names (or an empty list).


Is this the case?  If so, you should see this in a trace; if no, there is no client auth.  solve 
previous step.


If so, are the two client certificates signed by the same CA? If client auth is requested by the 
server, any of them can be sent.


Does the server perform any kind of authorisation check on the identity of the 
client?

Best
Peter Sylvester


On 15/08/2023 20:13, Phil Smith III wrote:

Thanks to an off-list suggestion from Charles that I run a gsktrace, I've now 
proven to my (and his) satisfaction that it does the label lookup and 
then.never actually uses it after that. So at least I now understand the 
results, even if they're arguably not quite what it should be doing. Or at 
least the documentation could improve.


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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

I believe that the TSO CALL is passing a string that is a copy of the 
variable(s) used to build it.

So even if I said:

   variable = 'dummy'
   "TSO CALL *(program) PARM("variable")"

And had the COBOL program change the value of the passed variable, what's being 
passed is a copy of the string 'dummy'.


COBOL won't give me access to R1. But even so, as mentioned above, I don't 
think that would help.

POSIX pipes are not available.


I find it interesting that no one has figured out what the REXX User's Guide 
was trying to say about the data stack.



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:48:39 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:
>...
>What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program to a 
>calling exec. The constraints are:
>...
I.e. almost anything that's likely to work.  Why?
>...
>..., so the parm is one-way, and would have no way to pass back the 
> address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address from the COBOL 
> program in a return code; it will get truncated.
>
PARM is two-way for many languages.  Does COBOL prohibit that?  TSO REXX 
supports
two-way as the caller, not as the subroutine.

Does CCOBOL provide access to the R1 value om entry?  That could work with
some creative pointer chasing.

>(I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times, passing 
>back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to that 
>I have a better last-resort work-around.)
>
You're desperate.  How about POSIX pipes (BPX1PIP, BPX4PIP)?

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Seymour J Metz]

Either the environment() BIF or the stem __environment.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If I DISPLAY something UPON SYSPUNCH it goes to the SYSPUNCH DD. Is that what 
you mean?


Meanwhile, I thought of passing through an environment variable. But as far as 
I can tell, the REXX exec has no way to read one.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jack Zukt
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If you assign a card punch on your Cobol program, where will it write to?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 19:15 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> That's my last-resort. I wanted to see if there's an alternative, and when
> I saw what the Users's Guide said about the data stack, I'm wondering what
> that actually means. Is it just that a program could write something to
> SYSTSIN?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jack Zukt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?
>
> You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
> not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
> the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
> in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
> Best wishes
> Jack
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
> wrote:
>
> > The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> > https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
> >
> > The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> > types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
> >
> > Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> > stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> > program running in MVS(tm).
> >
> > My question is how can the data stack be used to share information
> between
> > an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> > Reference.
> >
> >
> > What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program
> to
> > a calling exec. The constraints are:
> >
> >
> >   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
> >   *   ISPF may not be used
> >   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
> >   *   No assembler
> >   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
> >   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same
> constraints.
> >
> > So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> > COBOL program
> >
> > Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> > LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> > easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the
> way
> > I describe. Hence my problem.
> >
> > Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a
> REXX
> > variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't
> be
> > called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way
> to
> > pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address
> from
> > the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.
> >
> > (I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times,
> passing
> > back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
> > that I have a better last-resort work-around.)
> >
> >
> > The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data
> > to or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the
> data
> > stack?
>
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:01:07 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

>If I DISPLAY something UPON SYSPUNCH it goes to the SYSPUNCH DD. Is that what 
>you mean?
>
He may have been sarcastic.  Or an antiques dealer.


>Meanwhile, I thought of passing through an environment variable. But as far as 
>I can tell, the REXX exec has no way to read one.
>


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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

Unfortunately, neither one resolves in this environment. I tried getenv() also.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Either the environment() BIF or the stem __environment.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If I DISPLAY something UPON SYSPUNCH it goes to the SYSPUNCH DD. Is that what 
you mean?


Meanwhile, I thought of passing through an environment variable. But as far as 
I can tell, the REXX exec has no way to read one.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jack Zukt
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If you assign a card punch on your Cobol program, where will it write to?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 19:15 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> That's my last-resort. I wanted to see if there's an alternative, and when
> I saw what the Users's Guide said about the data stack, I'm wondering what
> that actually means. Is it just that a program could write something to
> SYSTSIN?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jack Zukt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?
>
> You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
> not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
> the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
> in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
> Best wishes
> Jack
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
> wrote:
>
> > The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> > https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
> >
> > The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> > types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
> >
> > Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> > stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> > program running in MVS(tm).
> >
> > My question is how can the data stack be used to share information
> between
> > an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> > Reference.
> >
> >
> > What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program
> to
> > a calling exec. The constraints are:
> >
> >
> >   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
> >   *   ISPF may not be used
> >   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
> >   *   No assembler
> >   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
> >   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same
> constraints.
> >
> > So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> > COBOL program
> >
> > Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> > LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> > easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the
> way
> > I describe. Hence my problem.
> >
> > Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a
> REXX
> > variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't
> be
> > called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way
> to
> > pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address
> from
> > the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.
> >
> > (I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times,
> passing
> > back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
> > that I have a better last-resort work-around.)
> >
> >
> > The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data
> > to or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the
> data
> > stack?
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Seymour J Metz]

What did syscalls('ON') return?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Unfortunately, neither one resolves in this environment. I tried getenv() also.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Either the environment() BIF or the stem __environment.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If I DISPLAY something UPON SYSPUNCH it goes to the SYSPUNCH DD. Is that what 
you mean?


Meanwhile, I thought of passing through an environment variable. But as far as 
I can tell, the REXX exec has no way to read one.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jack Zukt
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If you assign a card punch on your Cobol program, where will it write to?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 19:15 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> That's my last-resort. I wanted to see if there's an alternative, and when
> I saw what the Users's Guide said about the data stack, I'm wondering what
> that actually means. Is it just that a program could write something to
> SYSTSIN?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jack Zukt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?
>
> You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
> not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
> the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
> in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
> Best wishes
> Jack
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
> wrote:
>
> > The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> > https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
> >
> > The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> > types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
> >
> > Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> > stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> > program running in MVS(tm).
> >
> > My question is how can the data stack be used to share information
> between
> > an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> > Reference.
> >
> >
> > What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program
> to
> > a calling exec. The constraints are:
> >
> >
> >   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
> >   *   ISPF may not be used
> >   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
> >   *   No assembler
> >   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
> >   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same
> constraints.
> >
> > So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> > COBOL program
> >
> > Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> > LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> > easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the
> way
> > I describe. Hence my problem.
> >
> > Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a
> REXX
> > variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't
> be
> > called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way
> to
> > pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address
> from
> > the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.
> >
> > (I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times,
> passing
> > back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
> > that I have a better last-resort work-around.)
> >
> >
> > The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data
> > to or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the
> data
> > stack?
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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-

Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Jack Zukt]

It has been a long many years since I wrote my last cobol program. I was
wondering if it would be possible to use a card punch to write to the stack.
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 20:13 Paul Gilmartin <
042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:01:07 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:
>
> >If I DISPLAY something UPON SYSPUNCH it goes to the SYSPUNCH DD. Is that
> what you mean?
> >
> He may have been sarcastic.  Or an antiques dealer.
>
>
> >Meanwhile, I thought of passing through an environment variable. But as
> far as I can tell, the REXX exec has no way to read one.
> >
> 
>
> --
> gil
>
> --
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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:08:07 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

>I believe that the TSO CALL is passing a string that is a copy of the 
>variable(s) used to build it.
>
Can you omit the "TSO"?


>COBOL won't give  e access to R1. But even so, as mentioned above, I don't 
>think that would help.
>
With contrafactuals anything can be asserted.


>POSIX pipes are not available.
>
In what universe is BPX1PIP not available?

-- 
gil

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

In a universe that is running an emulation of TSO/E but not actual TSO/E. Which 
is why ADDRESS SH isn't available either.

And why there are all the constraints.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:25 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:08:07 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

>I believe that the TSO CALL is passing a string that is a copy of the 
>variable(s) used to build it.
>
Can you omit the "TSO"?


>COBOL won't give  e access to R1. But even so, as mentioned above, I don't 
>think that would help.
>
With contrafactuals anything can be asserted.


>POSIX pipes are not available.
>
In what universe is BPX1PIP not available?

--
gil

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Seymour J Metz]

I believe that he is referring to the command CALL in the TSO environment.

address tso
'call' '...'


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:08:07 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

>I believe that the TSO CALL is passing a string that is a copy of the 
>variable(s) used to build it.
>
Can you omit the "TSO"?


>COBOL won't give  e access to R1. But even so, as mentioned above, I don't 
>think that would help.
>
With contrafactuals anything can be asserted.


>POSIX pipes are not available.
>
In what universe is BPX1PIP not available?

--
gil

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

Errors with "Routine not found"

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

What did syscalls('ON') return?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Unfortunately, neither one resolves in this environment. I tried getenv() also.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Either the environment() BIF or the stem __environment.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If I DISPLAY something UPON SYSPUNCH it goes to the SYSPUNCH DD. Is that what 
you mean?


Meanwhile, I thought of passing through an environment variable. But as far as 
I can tell, the REXX exec has no way to read one.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jack Zukt
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If you assign a card punch on your Cobol program, where will it write to?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 19:15 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> That's my last-resort. I wanted to see if there's an alternative, and when
> I saw what the Users's Guide said about the data stack, I'm wondering what
> that actually means. Is it just that a program could write something to
> SYSTSIN?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jack Zukt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?
>
> You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
> not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
> the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
> in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
> Best wishes
> Jack
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
> wrote:
>
> > The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> > https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
> >
> > The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> > types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
> >
> > Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> > stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> > program running in MVS(tm).
> >
> > My question is how can the data stack be used to share information
> between
> > an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> > Reference.
> >
> >
> > What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program
> to
> > a calling exec. The constraints are:
> >
> >
> >   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
> >   *   ISPF may not be used
> >   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
> >   *   No assembler
> >   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
> >   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same
> constraints.
> >
> > So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> > COBOL program
> >
> > Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> > LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> > easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the
> way
> > I describe. Hence my problem.
> >
> > Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a
> REXX
> > variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't
> be
> > called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way
> to
> > pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address
> from
> > the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.
> >
> > (I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times,
> passing
> > back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
> > that I have a better last-resort work-around.)
> >
> >
> > The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data
> > to or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the
> data
> > stack?
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists

Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

Yup.

The funny thing is that if LINKMVS was available then I wouldn't even need the 
COBOL program.


I'm giving up and going to pass it back in a file.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

I believe that he is referring to the command CALL in the TSO environment.

address tso
'call' '...'


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:08:07 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

>I believe that the TSO CALL is passing a string that is a copy of the 
>variable(s) used to build it.
>
Can you omit the "TSO"?


>COBOL won't give  e access to R1. But even so, as mentioned above, I don't 
>think that would help.
>
With contrafactuals anything can be asserted.


>POSIX pipes are not available.
>
In what universe is BPX1PIP not available?

--
gil

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:30:32 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

>In a universe that is running an emulation of TSO/E but not actual TSO/E. 
>Which is why ADDRESS SH isn't available either.
> 
I believe that LINKPGM, etc. pass a copy of the argument string, but copy any
modified value back to the REXX variable on return.
:
... The program can update the parameters it receives and return the 
updated values to the exec. ...


>On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:08:07 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:
>
>>I believe that the TSO CALL is passing a string that is a copy of the 
>>variable(s) used to build it.

-- 
gil

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Seymour J Metz]

In what environment is your REXX code running


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael [michael.schm...@dxc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Errors with "Routine not found"

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

What did syscalls('ON') return?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Unfortunately, neither one resolves in this environment. I tried getenv() also.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Either the environment() BIF or the stem __environment.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If I DISPLAY something UPON SYSPUNCH it goes to the SYSPUNCH DD. Is that what 
you mean?


Meanwhile, I thought of passing through an environment variable. But as far as 
I can tell, the REXX exec has no way to read one.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jack Zukt
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If you assign a card punch on your Cobol program, where will it write to?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 19:15 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> That's my last-resort. I wanted to see if there's an alternative, and when
> I saw what the Users's Guide said about the data stack, I'm wondering what
> that actually means. Is it just that a program could write something to
> SYSTSIN?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jack Zukt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?
>
> You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
> not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
> the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
> in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
> Best wishes
> Jack
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
> wrote:
>
> > The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> > https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
> >
> > The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> > types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
> >
> > Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> > stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> > program running in MVS(tm).
> >
> > My question is how can the data stack be used to share information
> between
> > an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> > Reference.
> >
> >
> > What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program
> to
> > a calling exec. The constraints are:
> >
> >
> >   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
> >   *   ISPF may not be used
> >   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
> >   *   No assembler
> >   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
> >   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same
> constraints.
> >
> > So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> > COBOL program
> >
> > Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> > LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> > easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the
> way
> > I describe. Hence my problem.
> >
> > Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a
> REXX
> > variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't
> be
> > called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way
> to
> > pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address
> from
> > the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.
> >
> > (I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times,
> passing
> > back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, b

Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

Micro Focus ESMVS/TSO Version 7.0.000

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

In what environment is your REXX code running


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael [michael.schm...@dxc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Errors with "Routine not found"

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

What did syscalls('ON') return?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Unfortunately, neither one resolves in this environment. I tried getenv() also.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Either the environment() BIF or the stem __environment.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If I DISPLAY something UPON SYSPUNCH it goes to the SYSPUNCH DD. Is that what 
you mean?


Meanwhile, I thought of passing through an environment variable. But as far as 
I can tell, the REXX exec has no way to read one.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jack Zukt
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

If you assign a card punch on your Cobol program, where will it write to?
Best wishes
Jack

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 19:15 Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> That's my last-resort. I wanted to see if there's an alternative, and when
> I saw what the Users's Guide said about the data stack, I'm wondering what
> that actually means. Is it just that a program could write something to
> SYSTSIN?
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jack Zukt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?
>
> You need to pass eight bytes from a Cobol program to the invoking REXX. Why
> not use a disk file with a DD name? You can allocate it in the REXX, call
> the Cobol program, this can write it to the disk file, and you can read it
> in the calling REXX. Why does it have to be through the stack?
> Best wishes
> Jack
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 18:49 Schmitt, Michael 
> wrote:
>
> > The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says (
> > https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):
> >
> > The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other
> > types of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.
> >
> > Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
> > stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
> > program running in MVS(tm).
> >
> > My question is how can the data stack be used to share information
> between
> > an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
> > Reference.
> >
> >
> > What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program
> to
> > a calling exec. The constraints are:
> >
> >
> >   *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
> >   *   ISPF may not be used
> >   *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
> >   *   No assembler
> >   *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
> >   *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same
> constraints.
> >
> > So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
> > COBOL program
> >
> > Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with
> > LINKMVS, it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is
> > easy! I know it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the
> way
> > I describe. Hence my problem.
> >
> > Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a
> REXX
> > variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't
> be
> > called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way
> to
> > pass back the 

Re: Has anyone

[Steve Beaver]

Guys and gals.  Than you for all your input

Steve Beaver


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 12:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I have both M/S office products and Libre Office on W10 & W11 
laptops. The reason for that is, clients are tied to M/S so I 
have to use Office 365 for interfacing with them. I use Libre 
office when I do not want M/S to use One Drive, or otherwise 
don't need M/S software (We have our own file server which we use 
in-house).

So beware. If you turn off One Drive, M/S Office products will 
not autosave (in my experience with W10 or W11). They will not 
recover if M/S decides you need to reboot to finish updates.

Try to get M/S Support to see/recognize this as a problem. One 
Drive is common to M/S office apps and I think the bug is in One 
Drive. It wants to write to local disk, and then send your data 
into the M/S cloud.

But back to Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office 
products do (Word, & XL are what I use). Word is better at 
formatting documents than is Libre office in my experience. And 
XL has more features than Libre.





Steve Thompson

On 8/15/2023 1:22 PM, Tom Marchant wrote:
> Same here. I use Libre office. I prefer it over Microsoft office.
>

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Steve Thompson]

Ok, what I said won't work.

Whose COBOL is in use? Is it MF COBOL? Does it support dynamic 
"DD" changes via the ASSIGN? If that is the case, then passing 
the DD name to the COBOL program would allow it to write to that 
DD the data the caller is asking for.


Steve Thompson

On 8/15/2023 3:54 PM, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

Micro Focus ESMVS/TSO Version 7.0.000



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Re: Help for US Talent

[Steve Beaver]

If all of us give them a HIGH rate ($125/HR) when they want to pay $40.HR it
does get the point across

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

Yesterday I sent this to IBM Mainframe and RACF Discussions (See Below)

Evidently several people from Mainframe and RACF groups have begun using
This Little script.

I  continue to use this script and the off-shore recruiter;  Well you can
hear them
Just die on the phone.  They continue on their script and they tell me what
they
Can do monetarily then I tell them they are $50/HR low or whatever.  Then I
wish
them good Luck and hang up  

Steve 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Every time a recruiter calls me I have a sure way get rid of them and
increase what they need to pay.

They ask me if I'm Steve, and I say yes 

Then I tell them "Are you calling me with a job that pays $125/HR W2 or
$210,000 perm?"

You hear them fade or die on the other end then I hang up.

 

 

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Re: USS Features

[Jon Perryman]

 Andrew Rowley wrote:

> Disk space is cheap. Data is valuable. People are expensive.


This is absurd. Not all disk is cheap (e.g. GDPS). Not all data is valuable. 
While a person may be expensive, not everything they do is of value to the 
business and worth the hidden expenses.

> I started on MVS in 1991, so it's a bit late to tell me that. 
> I've *been* the storage admin.

You can't be serious about being a storage admin. Every situation and company 
are different. Questions must be asked. How do you not understand adding 100GB 
to a filesystem has an impact on GDPS, HSM, backups, recovery and much more. If 
you believe, everything is created equal, 100GB has the same impact on a 10GB 
or 10TB filesystem. A file system may contain millions of Unix files but its 1 
MVS dataset. Recovery of a filesystem is risky at the best of times but add 
100GB increases the risks and may impact the nightly archival time (1 Unix file 
change causes HSM to backup the entire filesystem). If as you say, data is 
valuable, then the UNIX backup would be used. I could go on but I expect this 
should be obvious. 
On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 03:40:26 AM PDT, Andrew Rowley 
 wrote:  
 
 On 15/08/2023 10:09 am, Jon Perryman wrote:
> This is z/OS with SYSPROGS, not Unix with sysadmins where programmers have 
> full control to define reasonable. You keep asking the wrong question. Who 
> (not what) determines reasonable. Right or wrong, it is their job, not yours. 
> If you can't give up control of sysprog duties, then z/OS is not the OS for 
> you.

I started on MVS in 1991, so it's a bit late to tell me that. I've 
*been* the storage admin.

Without evidence to the contrary, its a good idea to assume the fact 
that your colleagues are being paid means that they are doing work 
valuable to the business, and it's not the storage admin's job to veto 
it because it requires too much DASD space.

Its the storage admin's job to make sure that other people are not 
prevented from doing their work due to a lack of disk space. It's one of 
those jobs where the better you do, the less people know you're there.

Disk space is cheap. Data is valuable. People are expensive. Don't waste 
expensive people time managing empty space. Spend your time looking 
after the valuable data, and have enough free space that people don't 
need to stop what they are doing and set up a meeting with the storage 
admin group.

-- 
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

I can do dynamic DD names in z/OS COBOL using a trick*, but that trick doesn't 
work in MF COBOL. There's no documented way to do a dynamic DD name**. Dynamic 
*file names* yes, but not DD names.

But dynamic file names are native files (e.g. C:\Data\Catalog\File.DAT) not 
catalogged MVS data set names. And a REXX exec can determine allocated MVS data 
set names, but not the associated native file name!


(I think the real question is why doesn't the COBOL language allow for logical 
files names (what you ASSIGN to) that aren't known at compile time?)


* passing the FD name to a nested program that zaps the DD name in the DCB

** A MF COBOL program can get access to its version of a DCB but that structure 
doesn't include the DD name



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Ok, what I said won't work.

Whose COBOL is in use? Is it MF COBOL? Does it support dynamic
"DD" changes via the ASSIGN? If that is the case, then passing
the DD name to the COBOL program would allow it to write to that
DD the data the caller is asking for.

Steve Thompson

On 8/15/2023 3:54 PM, Schmitt, Michael wrote:
> Micro Focus ESMVS/TSO Version 7.0.000
>

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Re: Certificate labels

[Phil Smith III]

Peter Sylvester wrote:

>it would be helpful, if you describe your scenario in more details:

 

I'll short-circuit this: the STC is a client but is not using a client cert. 
It's just doing a GET via HTTPS. 

 

My confusion was that:

a.  The doc doesn't really make it clear that a label is only meaningful 
for a client cert. So in our reading, it was a way to force a specific cert in 
the database to be selected-either for control (admittedly odd) or perhaps for 
performance, as a quick way to get right to the right one. In my case, I was 
using it as a debugging aid, to know which cert was the good one for the 
connection.

 

This is one reason I like gskkyman in general: it's easy to create a database 
containing exactly one cert, and if that works, you know it's the right cert. 
We have many customers who can't spell 'certificate' and so spend way too much 
time trying to answer that precise question. In this case, they were updating 
the server cert, needed a new root, and weren't sure they'd done it right. They 
are also using gskkyman in production, which is rare in my experience but 
certainly not "bad" per se. And since I started this effort, I've figured out 
that their biggest problem was not understanding that a gskkyman database can 
contain multiple certs! They were playing shell games, swapping databases 
between "new" and "old" and appropriate afraid that they'd get it wrong. Since 
they run for months without a restart, they had in fact gotten it wrong on one 
system, and had a nasty surprise when they did reIPL and things didn't come up.

 

So, again, my goal was to make it easy to say "OK, if you explicitly tell it to 
use NEWCERT and it works, then you know that's the root in use, and you can 
remove the label and it will continue to work whether that system is hitting a 
server with the new cert or the old one.

 

b.  If you do specify a label for a root (non-client) certificate, it 
checks that the label exists but then ignores it. So if you specify an invalid 
label, it fails; but specifying ANY valid label will work as if you had not 
specified a label. I submit that this is a bug in theory, but it's also not 
clear how it should deal with that: if you specify a label, and then there's no 
client certificate involved, should it complain? That would be logical but a 
lot of work to implement. Hence my conclusion that some clarification of label 
use in the doc would suffice for this.

 

I know most folks here don't care about this, and certainly not to this level 
of detail; my goal is twofold: to get this recorded to perhaps save someone 
else in the future; and to maybe get Wai or someone else at IBM to weigh in. I 
expect they're all enjoying NoLa, though!


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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Steve Thompson]

Then how about the calling program passing the communications 
file name [DSN or whatever] and then have the COBOL program 
allocate, and open that for output, then CLOSE and "free" it.


The caller, upon return of the COBOL program should now have 
access to the string. I recall doing things like this with W/NT 
40 and Fujitsu COBOL. I had three different COBOL compilers back 
then, and the one that seemed to be the best implemented was FJ 
COBOL.


Steve Thompson




On 8/15/2023 4:21 PM, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

I can do dynamic DD names in z/OS COBOL using a trick*, but that trick doesn't 
work in MF COBOL. There's no documented way to do a dynamic DD name**. Dynamic 
*file names* yes, but not DD names.

But dynamic file names are native files (e.g. C:\Data\Catalog\File.DAT) not 
catalogged MVS data set names. And a REXX exec can determine allocated MVS data 
set names, but not the associated native file name!


(I think the real question is why doesn't the COBOL language allow for logical 
files names (what you ASSIGN to) that aren't known at compile time?)


* passing the FD name to a nested program that zaps the DD name in the DCB

** A MF COBOL program can get access to its version of a DCB but that structure 
doesn't include the DD name





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Re: USS Features

[Jon Perryman]

 I agree with Seymour that system z is not the same as PC but disagree that the 
problem is curiosity. The problem is with students not questioning what they 
are being taught.

> Steve Thompson wrote:
> How about the prestigious Schools telling their students that

> COBOL is a dead or dying language? And indicating that Mainframes

> are obsolete and not keeping up with technology?

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. These teachers are afflicted with 
motivated reasoning.

It's obvious these teachers are not making an informed statements about system 
z and z/OS. z/OS concepts continue to be implemented in Unix but go unnoticed 
(e.g. Google's equivalent to VSAM KSDS because database is overkill. How is it 
this did not make it into Unix file programming? Unix files have not changed in 
40 years, yet z/OS files continue to evolve without impacting programmers. 

Maybe Cobol is dying, but they ignore why it may be important. Do accounting 
programmers need something far more complicated? Should Cobol programmers be 
encouraged to understand BTREE when they shouldn't use it on z/OS? How about 
all those other API's we use in Unix but are irrelevant in z/OS.

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 02:22:58 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz 
 wrote:  
 
 It's not a mainframe vs PC thing or a work place versus Academia thing, it's a 
general lack of curiousity and initiative. Lot's of people can't be bothered to 
learn anything that they can avoid learning.

I have to partially disagree on theory: I believe that the failure to teach 
basic theory has caused a lot of problems. That said, I also believe that 
students should be exposed to several radically different languages along with 
the theory, but that it is misguided to concentrate on the language du jour.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Thompson [ste...@wkyr.net]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 4:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: USS Features

"Is it a non-west-coast specific mentality to ignore reality? Is
COBOL bringing in top computer professionals because of the
challenges it poses? "

How about the prestigious Schools telling their students that
COBOL is a dead or dying language? And indicating that Mainframes
are obsolete and not keeping up with technology?

I have relatives that have retired from a university (in the
USofA) and one of them worked with Grad Students to help them get
the computer lab time they needed, while also helping them get
the resources they needed for any experiments and the like they
needed to do involving IT.

I also have a relative that retired in Germany from a school
there, who had been teaching English to students from India. We
won't get started on this, but I'm not making this stuff up.

And they knew that I worked on mainframes. But when I told them
that the language you say is dead is also an OO Language now. I
told them about a few Standards put out for COBOL. They were
astonished. Now granted, I know more about COBOL's pseudo OO
abilities than I did back then. But that school got rid of their
mainframe decades ago.  And they had NO idea that the current IBM
mainframes could run Java, c/C++, etc.

They had no idea that the majority of their credit card
transactions were being handled by a mainframe somewhere. They
didn't know how many Banks, financial entities, Airlines, etc.
ran their biz using obsolete mainframes making millions of
obsolete dollars doing it.


It is my opinion that the universities seem to be in their own
Echo Chamber.

And then to add insult to injury, they weren't (at that time)
teaching any computer languages, they only taught theory.  Say
What!?! Yes, they only teach theory. So students have to learn a
language on their own to get employed in IT.

This is one of the top schools in the country. Not at Harvard's
level, but something around Stanford's Level (speaking of
Standford, they are the ones that destroyed the source for Wylbur
when they migrated it to a non-mainframe environment).

Then, I learned that several people from India that I had been
working with had degrees, said that the school they went to in
India only taught theory, they didn't teach any languages either!!

It was no wonder that because I took care of the tool for getting
compiles done, that they were using me for a help desk so I
couldn't concentrate on things I needed to get done. The
"compiler" had thrown an ABEND and I needed to fix it.  The
"compiler" was the utility for generating JCL to do their
compiles. So it knew how to put together all the translators
(CICS, DB2, IDMS, ProCOBOL, and all the linkedit stuff and DB2
BIND. The ABEND was the step after LINKEDIT which had failed with
a non-zero CC. We had to put in these ABEND steps because they
didn't bother to check if everything had worked before they'd
run|reran their JOB to test the program.

This is t

Re: Help for US Talent

[Bob Bridges]

That's not a recruiter, that's a spammer.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Every man has his secret sorrows, which the world knows not; and
oftentimes we call a man cold when he is only sad.  -Henry Wadsworth
Longfellow (1807-1882) */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Michael Watkins
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:35

Ha! When I was last looking for a job as a storage manager on the z/OS
platform, a recruiter approached me with a position where I'd be responsible
for renting out 10' x 10' storage units to people who'd already filled their
garages with belongings they could not part with.

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Re: Help for US Talent

[Bob Bridges]

Yeah, I've noticed the conventions are different for Indian and American 
recruiters.  The Indians want lots of information up front, including my lowest 
rate before even we've talked about the details of the req.  The Americans 
expect a certain amount of conversation about it first.

On the other hand the Indians will tell me, often in the very first email, who 
the client is.  Try to get that information out of a Yankee recruiter before 
they know whether you're a serious candidate!

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I am sick of all the chaos and the nastiness of our politics.  It's 
exhausting, and frankly it's depressing.  So I understand wanting to shut it 
all out, and just try to live your life, take care of your family in peace.  
But here's the problem:  While some folks are frustrated and tuned out, and 
staying home on election day, other folks are showing up.  Democracy continues 
with or without you.  They're voting in every election, from city council to 
governor to presidentWhen you don't vote, you're letting other people make 
some really key decisions about the life you're gonna live.  You're just 
saying: "YOU do it".  And you may not like what they decide.  You might not 
like living with the consequences of other people's choices.  But that's what 
happens when you stay home.  -Michelle Obama, in a Nevada speech late 2017 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
rpinion865
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:22

I have had some off-shore recruiters ask for my SSN and birthdate.  You can 
imagine how far that goes.

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Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Bob Bridges]

I gather he cannot.  But there's a blocking option, isn't there?

I haven't looked seriously at that option because these posts don't seriously 
annoy me.  (And to be fair, his on-topic posts are sometimes informed and 
interesting.)  But by all means drop the hammer for your own mental health; no 
one will notice except yourself.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I haven't heard anything like that since the orphanage burned down.  -Mark 
Twain, on an opera he'd just attended */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Beesley
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:01

Can you PLEASE take non-mainframe related discussion elsewhere Thank you

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: 15 August 2023 14:53

A 13 year old girl in Mississippi was forced to give birth to her rapist baby. 
All because christofascist want to force their incorrect interpretation of the 
bible onto everyone.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/14/mississippi-abortion-ban-girl-raped-gives-birth

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Re: Help for US Talent

[Bob Bridges]

I thought programming sounded boring, but I figured an accountant should know 
something about computers so I signed up for a class.  Not boring.  I finished 
my Accounting degree, but I went straight into coding and never looked back.

I agree with the folks who approved of your move.  Now that I'm a security 
analyst, I disliked being required to do repetitive security administration - 
but I have to admit that doing that work makes me more aware of what tools I 
can write that really help the admins, at each particular site.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Only a very clever human can make a real Joke about virtue, or indeed about 
anything else; any of them can be trained to talk AS IF virtue were funny.  
Among flippant people the Joke is always assumed to have been made.  No one 
actually makes it; but every serious subject is discussed in a manner which 
implies that they have already found a ridiculous side to it.   -from The 
Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gabe Goldberg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 02:39

regarding a point someone else made, once my IBM manager determined that I 
was going to an IBM customer, not competitor, I was able to work through the 
long notice I'd given to stop my manager from continuing to try to find a 
transfer for me.

Funny, as I was leaving, more than one person said that was a great career move 
-- go work for a customer or two, then come back with real-world 
knowledge/skills, which were too scarce at IBM. I did the first part but forgot 
to return.

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Re: Help for US Talent

[Bob Bridges]

Well, yes.  But when I ~needed~ the work - needed the money, I mean, of course 
- I sometimes took jobs like that.  So even to those recruiters I stay polite.

---
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/* The beginning of knowledge is the awareness of ignorance.  -Socrates */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Chuck Kreiter
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 09:17

Personally, I'm tired of getting recruiters emailing and/or calling (yes, they 
do both) about an urgent need for a 25+ year experience position that maxes out 
at $40/hour 1099.  So, those, I do not care if their job is harder or not.  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Bob Bridges
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 4:24 PM

Am I missing something?  Why the interest in making life hard for recruiters?  
Ok, I'm a contractor so my continued employment depends on their existence.  
Still, why?

If I thought that you normally work under those conditions - $125/hr or outside 
the US half the time - then of course you're just stating up front one of your 
requirements.  From the tone, though, it sounds like you're trying to make them 
unhappy for the fun of it.  Is there something going on here that I'm not aware 
of?

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Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Bob Bridges]

Oops.  Sorry, folks; I meant to send that off-list.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 09:16

Translation is a bear. I'm a native Anglophone who learned Hebrew as an adult, 
yet there were things I wrote in Hebrew that I had trouble translating into 
English.

I inadvertently pasted "teharah" twice; the word I meant to paste the second 
time was "behema".


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 8:57 AM

There's a Christian missionary organization called Wycliffe Bible Translators 
whose goal is to send a small team (and by "small" I mean usually husband and 
wife or two brothers, like that) to these groups that speak a language that 
only a thousand people in the whole world use, to live with them and learn 
their language, and eventually to translate the Bible into it.  A family I know 
did that with the Kogi indians in Colombia - that was a whole family, parents 
and I think three children - and when one of them came back on furlough I 
remember a discussion I had with him about the difficulties of translation.  He 
of course was uncomfortably aware of the impossibility of doing it perfectly, 
and I in my youth (I had been a serious Christian only a couple years, I think) 
tried to reässure him that God will protect His words.  I didn't convince him, 
and of course now that I'm older and can read several languages I see more 
clearly what he must have worried about constantly.

I knew of course that the story doesn't say two of everything.  I did ~not~ 
know that it used a word restricting it to mammals.  Every day something new.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 04:20

ITYM טְּהוֹרָ֗ה.

Also, the sentence uses the word טְּהוֹרָ֗ה, which limits it to mammals.

"All translations are lies."


From: David Spiegel [0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:03 PM

Hi Bill,
You said: "...Noah never collected 2 of every species. .."
That is close to what the Bible says, but is inaccurate.
Please see GE 7:2
(The verse says Noah was commanded to take 7 (possibly 14) of each species of 
"clean" animals. (The Hebrew word טְּהוֹרָ֗ does not translate to English. It is 
usually translated as clean, which although close is
incorrect.)

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Re: Has anyone

[Bob Bridges]

I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019.  No plans to upgrade until I
must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I
wanted to continue doing.

For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a
hex-display feature.  I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine.  But one day
it offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear.  Turns out, though,
they'd discontinued the hex feature.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a
replacement, by the way?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology.
-Rick Joyner, October 2018. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19

Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus+

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Re: Has anyone

[Bob Bridges]

I have Pro-Plus too, and I'm definitely an individual contractor.  

And yes, I too fork over the money for it, whenever I get a new PC, because it 
has Access.  My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is 
just as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find 
out that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Being a programmer is one thing above all else: It is understanding how 
things work. -from the introduction to "Assembly Language Step-by-Step" (2nd 
edition) by Jeff Nuntemann */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Farley, Peter
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:33

I’ve had Office 365 for years now, I find it useful to keep paying the yearly 
fee because they upgrade the individual components without me needing to 
concern myself with which version is current today and I can share it with my 
family for no extra charge.

In prior times when I consulted for a living I did always buy the 
“Professional” version because it included  Access.

A little time spent with Mr. Google says that the “Plus” version may be for 
“business volume purchases only”, not for individual purchase, but I may be 
mis-interpreting what I read.

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Re: Help for US Talent

[Seymour J Metz]

Sometimes you have to do something boring that is not your responsibility 
because you're the only one they trust to do it right and they can't afford for 
it to be done wrong. 

That said, there's nothing wrong with writing tools to eliminate some of the 
drudgery.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 4:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Help for US Talent

I thought programming sounded boring, but I figured an accountant should know 
something about computers so I signed up for a class.  Not boring.  I finished 
my Accounting degree, but I went straight into coding and never looked back.

I agree with the folks who approved of your move.  Now that I'm a security 
analyst, I disliked being required to do repetitive security administration - 
but I have to admit that doing that work makes me more aware of what tools I 
can write that really help the admins, at each particular site.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Only a very clever human can make a real Joke about virtue, or indeed about 
anything else; any of them can be trained to talk AS IF virtue were funny.  
Among flippant people the Joke is always assumed to have been made.  No one 
actually makes it; but every serious subject is discussed in a manner which 
implies that they have already found a ridiculous side to it.   -from The 
Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gabe Goldberg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 02:39

regarding a point someone else made, once my IBM manager determined that I 
was going to an IBM customer, not competitor, I was able to work through the 
long notice I'd given to stop my manager from continuing to try to find a 
transfer for me.

Funny, as I was leaving, more than one person said that was a great career move 
-- go work for a customer or two, then come back with real-world 
knowledge/skills, which were too scarce at IBM. I did the first part but forgot 
to return.

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Re: Has anyone

[Bob Bridges]

I've ranted on this before so I'll make it short:  I finally, maybe a year ago, 
got tired of trying to write serious documentation in Word.  I asked you folks 
and those at another listserv about markup languages, and then took a week off 
to learn to use LaTeX.  I'm ~much~ happier with that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer 
than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations — 
forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where writing 
REALLY counts.  -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:47

Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office products do (Word, & XL are 
what I use). Word is better at formatting documents than is Libre office in my 
experience. And XL has more features than Libre.

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Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Mike Schwab]

We'll, they did adopt ISA and extentions, but not MCA in the PS/2s.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 08:31 Crawford Robert C (Contractor) <
04e08f385650-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I also have to wonder if MS-DOS would've taken off at all if IBM had kept
> it.  In the 20th century I remember a lot of companies, Microsoft and Apple
> included, styling themselves as IBM "giant killers."  They were cool,
> (relatively) inexpensive and bringing computing to the masses.  IBM, on the
> other hand, was stodgy, old fashioned  and, for lack of a better term,
> evil.  I'm thinking of Apple's "1984" commercial.
>
> For those reasons, people might have rejected MS-DOS just because IBM
> owned it and glommed onto something like DR-DOS.
>
> Robert Crawford
> Abstract Evolutions LLC
> (210) 913-3822
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Bob Bridges
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 3:16 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe
>
> I sort of agree, but I think underneath we still disagree.  I agree that
> IBM didn't think the PC software was worth developing.  And if they had
> held onto MS-DOS and approached its development in the same way that
> Microsoft did, sure, they'd probably be worth bazillions.
>
> (Probably.  I suppose there's market perception involved here too; maybe
> customers accepted software from Microsoft in numbers that they wouldn't
> have from IBM.  But I don't know how to evaluate that, so lets pretend it's
> not an issue.)
>
> Where we may disagree is in your belief - what I think is your belief -
> that IBM was therefore short-sighted to let it go.  What I was hinting at a
> week or so ago is that IBM was ~always~ going to judge that MS-DOS wasn't
> worth their bother, and they were never going to develop it as Microsoft
> did, and therefore (in a sense) they did the sensible thing by letting go
> of it, letting someone else take it and run with it.  They did themselves
> no harm because they would never have done it themselves - and incidentally
> in the process they did the rest of us an enormous favor.  And did
> themselves the same favor, because I can be certain without looking that
> every employee at IBM now has a powerful PC on his desk, which would not
> have happened had they kept control of DOS themselves.
>
> If IBM were a different company, sure, maybe that different company should
> have held on to MS-DOS.  But as it is ...
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* [Your patient] has not yet been anything like long enough with the
> Enemy to have any real humility yet.  What he says, even on his knees,
> about his own sinfulness is all parrot talk.  At bottom, he still believes
> he has run up a very favourable credit balance in the Enemy's ledger by
> allowing himself to be converted  -advice to a tempter from The
> Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Jon Perryman
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 15:23
>
> I'm saying that if IBM retained control in MS-DOS and put in the same
> effort as z/OS, they could have been worth bazillions. The problem is that
> IBM has always been half-assed in the PC market. Bill Gates didn't do
> anything groundbreaking. MS-Windows came 6 years after Mac. The mouse & GUI
> was invented by Xerox before 1973. These corporations simply considered
> PC's chump change not worth the bother. IBM and Xerox failed because they
> considered PC more of a nuisance than a goldmine.
>
> > --- On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 06:56:39 AM PDT, Bob Bridges <
> robhbrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Wait, MS-DOS is what you were talking about, before?  You're
> > suggesting that if IBM had hung on to MS-DOS at the time, they would now
> be worth bazillions instead of Microsoft?
>
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> --
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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Bob Bridges]

I'm coming late to this thread, and this solution (if it even works) is
really going around your elbow to get to your thumb, but:

1) You said the REXX exec is running in batch, right?
2) Call the COBOL program
3) The COBOL program displays the value to any DD
4) The exec invokes the SDSF interface, looks up the job it's running under,
and watches that DD until the value appears.

Not sure that'd work; I haven't thought through the details.  But if it
doesn't, maybe you could call the COBOL program in a previous step and THEN
your exec could look up the value in SDSF.

(I probably should have sent this to you off-line, to avoid embarrassing
myself.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ...this is a certain truth, that nothing ever did, or can have the least
desire or tendency to ascend to heaven, but that which came down from
heaven; and therefore nothing in the heart can pray, aspire, and long after
God, but the Spirit of God moving and stirring in it.  -William Law
(1686-1761), _The Spirit of Prayer_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:49

The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says
(https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):

The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other types
of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.

Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
program running in MVS(tm).

My question is how can the data stack be used to share information between
an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
Reference.

What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program to a
calling exec. The constraints are:

  *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
  *   ISPF may not be used
  *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
  *   No assembler
  *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
  *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same constraints.

So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
COBOL program

Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with LINKMVS,
it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is easy! I know
it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the way I describe.
Hence my problem.

Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a REXX
variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't be
called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way to
pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address from
the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.

(I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times, passing
back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
that I have a better last-resort work-around.)

The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data to
or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the data
stack?

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

The exec can't access SDSF, and I'm not sure it is possible for it to access 
the spool equivalent. It basically restricted to what's available in address 
TSO.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 4:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

I'm coming late to this thread, and this solution (if it even works) is
really going around your elbow to get to your thumb, but:

1) You said the REXX exec is running in batch, right?
2) Call the COBOL program
3) The COBOL program displays the value to any DD
4) The exec invokes the SDSF interface, looks up the job it's running under,
and watches that DD until the value appears.

Not sure that'd work; I haven't thought through the details.  But if it
doesn't, maybe you could call the COBOL program in a previous step and THEN
your exec could look up the value in SDSF.

(I probably should have sent this to you off-line, to avoid embarrassing
myself.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ...this is a certain truth, that nothing ever did, or can have the least
desire or tendency to ascend to heaven, but that which came down from
heaven; and therefore nothing in the heart can pray, aspire, and long after
God, but the Spirit of God moving and stirring in it.  -William Law
(1686-1761), _The Spirit of Prayer_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:49

The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says
(https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):

The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other types
of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.

Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
program running in MVS(tm).

My question is how can the data stack be used to share information between
an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
Reference.

What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program to a
calling exec. The constraints are:

  *   Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
  *   ISPF may not be used
  *   COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
  *   No assembler
  *   No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
  *   Any calls to other programs would also be under the same constraints.

So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
COBOL program

Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with LINKMVS,
it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is easy! I know
it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the way I describe.
Hence my problem.

Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a REXX
variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't be
called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way to
pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address from
the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.

(I suppose one option is to call the COBOL program multiple times, passing
back the data as a return code one or two bytes a time, but if it came to
that I have a better last-resort work-around.)

The User's Guide is hinting that the data stack can be used to pass data to
or from another program. So how can a COBOL program put data on the data
stack?

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Schmitt, Michael]

I just coded this, except I had to hard-code the DD name.

The REXX code looks like:

get_job_step: procedure
address TSO

   /* Call JCLEXECI to get JCL exec step info in dd JCLEXECI */
   "ALLOC DD(JCLEXECI) RECFM(F) LRECL(80) NEW DELETE"
   "CALL *(JCLEXECI)"
   "EXECIO * DISKR JCLEXECI (STEM jclexeci. FINIS"
   "FREE DD(JCLEXECI)"

   parse var jclexeci.1 job_step_name +8 proc_step_name +8

   if proc_step_name \= '' then step_name = proc_step_name
   else step_name = job_step_name

   return step_name


Now I know that people seeing this are going to say, why can't I use STORAGE to 
get the step name from the control blocks?

That works on the mainframe, and in Micro Focus COBOL, but not in REXX under 
Micro Focus.

My theory is that when you access the PSA at address 0 in a MF COBOL program it 
isn't *really* accessing memory at page 0, it is mapping it to the emulated PSA 
somewhere else in memory. But that memory redirection doesn't work in REXX, 
because it isn't operating in the mode that does that kind of thing.

For cases like this Micro Focus provides an API to get the actual PSA address...

...which you can't call, because of the original problem. The only way to call 
something is TSO CALL, which is one-way.




-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 3:45 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

Then how about the calling program passing the communications
file name [DSN or whatever] and then have the COBOL program
allocate, and open that for output, then CLOSE and "free" it.

The caller, upon return of the COBOL program should now have
access to the string. I recall doing things like this with W/NT
40 and Fujitsu COBOL. I had three different COBOL compilers back
then, and the one that seemed to be the best implemented was FJ
COBOL.

Steve Thompson




On 8/15/2023 4:21 PM, Schmitt, Michael wrote:
> I can do dynamic DD names in z/OS COBOL using a trick*, but that trick 
> doesn't work in MF COBOL. There's no documented way to do a dynamic DD 
> name**. Dynamic *file names* yes, but not DD names.
>
> But dynamic file names are native files (e.g. C:\Data\Catalog\File.DAT) not 
> catalogged MVS data set names. And a REXX exec can determine allocated MVS 
> data set names, but not the associated native file name!
>
>
> (I think the real question is why doesn't the COBOL language allow for 
> logical files names (what you ASSIGN to) that aren't known at compile time?)
>
>
> * passing the FD name to a nested program that zaps the DD name in the DCB
>
> ** A MF COBOL program can get access to its version of a DCB but that 
> structure doesn't include the DD name
>
>
>

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Re: USS Features

[Nigel Morton]

HSM has been able to back up at the file level (and recover, of course)
rather than an entire ZFS data set for some time now.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 at 21:17, Jon Perryman  wrote:

>  Andrew Rowley wrote:
>
> > Disk space is cheap. Data is valuable. People are expensive.
>
>
> This is absurd. Not all disk is cheap (e.g. GDPS). Not all data is
> valuable. While a person may be expensive, not everything they do is of
> value to the business and worth the hidden expenses.
>
> > I started on MVS in 1991, so it's a bit late to tell me that.
> > I've *been* the storage admin.
>
> You can't be serious about being a storage admin. Every situation and
> company are different. Questions must be asked. How do you not understand
> adding 100GB to a filesystem has an impact on GDPS, HSM, backups, recovery
> and much more. If you believe, everything is created equal, 100GB has the
> same impact on a 10GB or 10TB filesystem. A file system may contain
> millions of Unix files but its 1 MVS dataset. Recovery of a filesystem is
> risky at the best of times but add 100GB increases the risks and may impact
> the nightly archival time (1 Unix file change causes HSM to backup the
> entire filesystem). If as you say, data is valuable, then the UNIX backup
> would be used. I could go on but I expect this should be obvious.
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 03:40:26 AM PDT, Andrew Rowley <
> and...@blackhillsoftware.com> wrote:
>
>  On 15/08/2023 10:09 am, Jon Perryman wrote:
> > This is z/OS with SYSPROGS, not Unix with sysadmins where programmers
> have full control to define reasonable. You keep asking the wrong question.
> Who (not what) determines reasonable. Right or wrong, it is their job, not
> yours. If you can't give up control of sysprog duties, then z/OS is not the
> OS for you.
>
> I started on MVS in 1991, so it's a bit late to tell me that. I've
> *been* the storage admin.
>
> Without evidence to the contrary, its a good idea to assume the fact
> that your colleagues are being paid means that they are doing work
> valuable to the business, and it's not the storage admin's job to veto
> it because it requires too much DASD space.
>
> Its the storage admin's job to make sure that other people are not
> prevented from doing their work due to a lack of disk space. It's one of
> those jobs where the better you do, the less people know you're there.
>
> Disk space is cheap. Data is valuable. People are expensive. Don't waste
> expensive people time managing empty space. Spend your time looking
> after the valuable data, and have enough free space that people don't
> need to stop what they are doing and set up a meeting with the storage
> admin group.
>
> --
> Andrew Rowley
> Black Hill Software
>
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe

[Pommier, Rex]

Re: MCA, IIRC that's because IBM wanted to charge an arm and a leg to the other 
PC manufacturers to license MCA.  I believe NCR did license it and their PCs 
were relatively expensive.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 4:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of 
mainframe

We'll, they did adopt ISA and extentions, but not MCA in the PS/2s.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 08:31 Crawford Robert C (Contractor) < 
04e08f385650-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I also have to wonder if MS-DOS would've taken off at all if IBM had 
> kept it.  In the 20th century I remember a lot of companies, Microsoft 
> and Apple included, styling themselves as IBM "giant killers."  They 
> were cool,
> (relatively) inexpensive and bringing computing to the masses.  IBM, 
> on the other hand, was stodgy, old fashioned  and, for lack of a 
> better term, evil.  I'm thinking of Apple's "1984" commercial.
>
> For those reasons, people might have rejected MS-DOS just because IBM 
> owned it and glommed onto something like DR-DOS.
>
> Robert Crawford
> Abstract Evolutions LLC
> (210) 913-3822
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Bob Bridges
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 3:16 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXT] Re: The ultimate (another one!) definition of mainframe
>
> I sort of agree, but I think underneath we still disagree.  I agree 
> that IBM didn't think the PC software was worth developing.  And if 
> they had held onto MS-DOS and approached its development in the same 
> way that Microsoft did, sure, they'd probably be worth bazillions.
>
> (Probably.  I suppose there's market perception involved here too; 
> maybe customers accepted software from Microsoft in numbers that they 
> wouldn't have from IBM.  But I don't know how to evaluate that, so 
> lets pretend it's not an issue.)
>
> Where we may disagree is in your belief - what I think is your belief 
> - that IBM was therefore short-sighted to let it go.  What I was 
> hinting at a week or so ago is that IBM was ~always~ going to judge 
> that MS-DOS wasn't worth their bother, and they were never going to 
> develop it as Microsoft did, and therefore (in a sense) they did the 
> sensible thing by letting go of it, letting someone else take it and 
> run with it.  They did themselves no harm because they would never 
> have done it themselves - and incidentally in the process they did the 
> rest of us an enormous favor.  And did themselves the same favor, 
> because I can be certain without looking that every employee at IBM 
> now has a powerful PC on his desk, which would not have happened had they 
> kept control of DOS themselves.
>
> If IBM were a different company, sure, maybe that different company 
> should have held on to MS-DOS.  But as it is ...
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* [Your patient] has not yet been anything like long enough with the 
> Enemy to have any real humility yet.  What he says, even on his knees, 
> about his own sinfulness is all parrot talk.  At bottom, he still 
> believes he has run up a very favourable credit balance in the Enemy's 
> ledger by allowing himself to be converted  -advice to a tempter 
> from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Jon Perryman
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 15:23
>
> I'm saying that if IBM retained control in MS-DOS and put in the same 
> effort as z/OS, they could have been worth bazillions. The problem is 
> that IBM has always been half-assed in the PC market. Bill Gates 
> didn't do anything groundbreaking. MS-Windows came 6 years after Mac. 
> The mouse & GUI was invented by Xerox before 1973. These corporations 
> simply considered PC's chump change not worth the bother. IBM and 
> Xerox failed because they considered PC more of a nuisance than a goldmine.
>
> > --- On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 06:56:39 AM PDT, Bob Bridges <
> robhbrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Wait, MS-DOS is what you were talking about, before?  You're 
> > suggesting that if IBM had hung on to MS-DOS at the time, they would 
> > now
> be worth bazillions instead of Microsoft?
>
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Re: Has anyone

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

For a HEX viewr, try the V fileviewer at www.fileviewer.com
It also recognises XMIT format and will even work with XMIT within XMIT.
I bought a license about 8 years back for very little. 

Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Bob Bridges
Sent: 15 August 2023 21:55
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019.  No plans to upgrade until I
must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I
wanted to continue doing.

For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a
hex-display feature.  I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine.  But one day
it offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear.  Turns out, though,
they'd discontinued the hex feature.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a
replacement, by the way?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology.
-Rick Joyner, October 2018. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19

Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus+

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

[Pommier, Rex]

I highly recommend "HxD hex edit".

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 4:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

For a HEX viewr, try the V fileviewer at 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.fileviewer.com__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!v5eXBmYcxxvXzFMv9qPTYvGHG1T8CpbwNOSdjb9rP7YSJyy5HZXFMw7jmOS_OWfq7pas02f-uMf_iO-Lzyt_nTK3Yk3bwUpoZ3QD$
It also recognises XMIT format and will even work with XMIT within XMIT.
I bought a license about 8 years back for very little. 

Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: 15 August 2023 21:55
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone

I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019.  No plans to upgrade until I 
must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I 
wanted to continue doing.

For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a 
hex-display feature.  I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine.  But one day it 
offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear.  Turns out, though, they'd 
discontinued the hex feature.  Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement, 
by the way?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology.
-Rick Joyner, October 2018. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19

Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus+

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Re: Certificate labels

[Charles Mills]

I believe that responding to a possible server request for a client certificate 
is the only purpose for the certificate label parameter *in a client 
configuration.*

For a server, the label is a possible alternative to the usual convention of 
having the server present the default certificate on the ring. It could instead 
present the certificate indicated by a label parameter. I don't know that most 
servers support such an option. I am most familiar with the FTP server, and I 
believe that it does not.

Charles

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:42:17 -0400, Phil Smith III  wrote:

>Peter Sylvester wrote:
>
>>it would be helpful, if you describe your scenario in more details:
>
> 
>
>I'll short-circuit this: the STC is a client but is not using a client cert. 
>It's just doing a GET via HTTPS. 
>
> 
>
>My confusion was that:
>
>a. The doc doesn't really make it clear that a label is only meaningful 
>for a client cert. So in our reading, it was a way to force a specific cert in 
>the database to be selected-either for control (admittedly odd) or perhaps for 
>performance, as a quick way to get right to the right one. In my case, I was 
>using it as a debugging aid, to know which cert was the good one for the 
>connection.

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

[Charles Mills]

I use it. I have nothing to really compare it to, but it does the job for me. 
Supports EBCDIC.

Charles

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 22:16:16 +, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:

>I highly recommend "HxD hex edit".

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone

[Wayne Bickerdike]

I use both Libre Office and Ashampoo office. The Ashampoo products are like
MS-Office used to be. Not overloaded with features I don't need and each
component offers compatible file formats with MS-Office. Costs about $20. I
have a number of other Ashampoo products for disk backup, video editing,
audio editing and photo processing.

There is a free version for their Office suite too.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 5:46 AM Charles Mills  wrote:

> I use it. I have nothing to really compare it to, but it does the job for
> me. Supports EBCDIC.
>
> Charles
>
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 22:16:16 +, Pommier, Rex 
> wrote:
>
> >I highly recommend "HxD hex edit".
>
> --
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-- 
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

[Jon Perryman]

 There is too much misleading information. This isn't a simple question about 
passing data between REXX and Cobol.

Passing between languages is never consistent. I can't remember about Cobol but 
Micro Focus Cobol was written in C which makes me suspect it passes / receives 
by value (a copy of) to discourage you from passing data back to the caller 
using this method. Length, type and other factors come into play so great care 
must always be taken when using this method to return data. My guess is that 
calling MF Cobol will always force by value as the first call.

You said LINKMVS is not available but I'm wondering why if this is TSO REXX. 
Does ADDRESS LINKMVS fail because environment not available?

The TSO stack is not a preferred solution because other commands and programs 
can pull from it at the same time. You've thrown Micro Focus into the mix which 
I can't say how it interacts with the TSO stack.

>From REXX, outtrap is much more reliable because it captures messages. It's 
>been too many years, but I vaguely recall that Cobol programs running under 
>TSO translate display upon console to TSO terminal. You can test this. Adding 
>MF Cobol may change everything.

TSO ALLOC DDN(MYDD) DSN(*) uses the TSO terminal. Simply code MYDD in the cobol 
FD instead of relying on SYSPUNCH> Output goes to the TSO terminal but I'm 
vaguely recalling that OUTTRAP might not capture it. You'll need to test it.

If you're running under ISPF, then use ISPEXEC VPUT / VGET. I personally would 
use IRXEXCOM and go directly to REXX but you'll need to feel comfortable doing 
this.

TSO ALLOC DDN(MYDD) UNIT(VIO) is also a possibility if you want to memory. 


  
On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 02:26:53 PM PDT, Schmitt, Michael 
 wrote:  
 
 The exec can't access SDSF, and I'm not sure it is possible for it to access 
the spool equivalent. It basically restricted to what's available in address 
TSO.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 4:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How can a REXX data stack pass information from a program?

I'm coming late to this thread, and this solution (if it even works) is
really going around your elbow to get to your thumb, but:

1) You said the REXX exec is running in batch, right?
2) Call the COBOL program
3) The COBOL program displays the value to any DD
4) The exec invokes the SDSF interface, looks up the job it's running under,
and watches that DD until the value appears.

Not sure that'd work; I haven't thought through the details.  But if it
doesn't, maybe you could call the COBOL program in a previous step and THEN
your exec could look up the value in SDSF.

(I probably should have sent this to you off-line, to avoid embarrassing
myself.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ...this is a certain truth, that nothing ever did, or can have the least
desire or tendency to ascend to heaven, but that which came down from
heaven; and therefore nothing in the heart can pray, aspire, and long after
God, but the Spirit of God moving and stirring in it.  -William Law
(1686-1761), _The Spirit of Prayer_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:49

The z/OS TSO REXX User's Guide says
(https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=stack-using-data):

The data stack [...] can pass information between REXX execs and other types
of programs in a TSO/E or non-TSO/E address space.

Because of the data stack's unique characteristics, you can use the data
stack specifically to [...] Share information between an exec and any
program running in MVS(tm).

My question is how can the data stack be used to share information between
an exec and a program? I don't see this in either the User's Guide or
Reference.

What I'm trying to do is pass an 8 character field from a COBOL program to a
calling exec. The constraints are:

  *  Exec is running in the TSO/E address space in a batch job
  *  ISPF may not be used
  *  COBOL program is called via TSO CALL
  *  No assembler
  *  No REXX programming services (e.g. IRXEXCOM)
  *  Any calls to other programs would also be under the same constraints.

So the calling path is PGM=IKJEFT01 > REXX exec > TSO CALL *(program) >
COBOL program

Please don't say, run using ISPF, it's easy! Or, call program with LINKMVS,
it's easy! Or, use the IRXECOM variable access routine, it is easy! I know
it is, but it can't be used in this case. It has to be the way I describe.
Hence my problem.

Trying a cheat like "call some other program to gain the address of a REXX
variable" won't work because it would hit the same constraint; it can't be
called by LINK or ATTACH, so the parm is one-way, and would have no way to
pass back the address. Nor will it work to try to pass back an address from
the COBOL program in a return code; it will get truncated.

(I suppose one option i

Re: USS Features

[Andrew Rowley]

On 16/08/2023 6:17 am, Jon Perryman wrote:


This is absurd. Not all disk is cheap (e.g. GDPS). Not all data is valuable. 
While a person may be expensive, not everything they do is of value to the 
business and worth the hidden expenses.


It's not cents per GB PC cheap, but it's not 1990s expensive either.

If you have a meeting with a couple of people, schedule a change, get it 
approved, implement it... you could easily spend $1000 of people's time, 
not to mention add weeks to a project. How much disk space would that 
buy you, if you can avoid that cost and delay?


The IBM RDP systems charge $10/month for 5GB of disk space, which seems 
expensive. But still, $1000 of meetings avoided will pay for 40GB of 
space for a year.


What is the (ballpark) cost per GB on a real customer system? How much 
space is it worth to reduce the time spent managing it?



You can't be serious about being a storage admin. Every situation and company 
are different. Questions must be asked. How do you not understand adding 100GB 
to a filesystem has an impact on GDPS, HSM, backups, recovery and much more. If 
you believe, everything is created equal, 100GB has the same impact on a 10GB 
or 10TB filesystem. A file system may contain millions of Unix files but its 1 
MVS dataset. Recovery of a filesystem is risky at the best of times but add 
100GB increases the risks and may impact the nightly archival time (1 Unix file 
change causes HSM to backup the entire filesystem). If as you say, data is 
valuable, then the UNIX backup would be used. I could go on but I expect this 
should be obvious.


Whole filesystem backups are not very useful - really just a DR tool. 
What do you do if a user wants file(s) restored? Restore all their files 
from a point in time? Or restore the filesystem, mount it somewhere and 
manually copy files?


The whole filesystem backup takes us back to the problems with 
individual filesystems. You are going to back up a user's whole 
filesystem, including all the freespace from the largest file they ever 
deleted, because they logged on and updated .sh_history? Or worse - can 
the filesystem change indicator tell the difference between a data 
update and a metadata (e.g. last accessed date) change?


I'm not saying everything is equal, I'm just saying that freespace is a 
lot cheaper than managing a lack of freespace.


--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: ransomware on z

[Jon Perryman]

 > Timothy Sipples wrote: 
> If an attacker inserts a keylogger or gets an adequate view of the keyboard

I hear that AI is getting good results using the microphone to get keystrokes.  
  On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 10:17:36 PM PDT, Timothy Sipples 
 wrote:  
 
 Tony Thigpen wrote:
> And, that I can agree with. Especially when the admin stores passwords
>in their browser.

Yes, but not required. If an attacker inserts a keylogger or gets an adequate 
view of the keyboard it's probably "game over."

—
Timothy Sipples
Senior Architect
Digital Assets, Industry Solutions, and Cybersecurity
IBM zSystems/LinuxONE, Asia-Pacific
sipp...@sg.ibm.com


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Re: USS Features

[Jon Perryman]

 > Andrew Rowley wrote:
> It's not cents per GB cheap

While I agree with everything you're saying, at the end of the day it's the 
storage sysprog's decision. As with any z/OS sysprog, they make decisions that 
programmers feel are abusive. 
People are arguing about passion. If this were a manager or a CEO's decision, 
would you argue the point with them? Right or wrong, we live with their 
decisions. Just because sysprogs aren't managers, doesn't mean that they 
shouldn't be considered the authority without the necessity of arguing every 
detail.

If you came into a company as storage sysprog, would you on day 1 satisfy all 
storage requests on your new desk? My point is that you can't possibly assume 
that everything from you last employer is the same as your new employer. If 
after 10 days, you must take the disk space back, those people will be more 
angry than if you just denied their requests.


On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 05:20:47 PM PDT, Andrew Rowley 
 wrote:  
 
 On 16/08/2023 6:17 am, Jon Perryman wrote:

> This is absurd. Not all disk is cheap (e.g. GDPS). Not all data is valuable. 
> While a person may be expensive, not everything they do is of value to the 
> business and worth the hidden expenses.

It's not cents per GB PC cheap, but it's not 1990s expensive either.

If you have a meeting with a couple of people, schedule a change, get it 
approved, implement it... you could easily spend $1000 of people's time, 
not to mention add weeks to a project. How much disk space would that 
buy you, if you can avoid that cost and delay?

The IBM RDP systems charge $10/month for 5GB of disk space, which seems 
expensive. But still, $1000 of meetings avoided will pay for 40GB of 
space for a year.

What is the (ballpark) cost per GB on a real customer system? How much 
space is it worth to reduce the time spent managing it?

> You can't be serious about being a storage admin. Every situation and company 
> are different. Questions must be asked. How do you not understand adding 
> 100GB to a filesystem has an impact on GDPS, HSM, backups, recovery and much 
> more. If you believe, everything is created equal, 100GB has the same impact 
> on a 10GB or 10TB filesystem. A file system may contain millions of Unix 
> files but its 1 MVS dataset. Recovery of a filesystem is risky at the best of 
> times but add 100GB increases the risks and may impact the nightly archival 
> time (1 Unix file change causes HSM to backup the entire filesystem). If as 
> you say, data is valuable, then the UNIX backup would be used. I could go on 
> but I expect this should be obvious.

Whole filesystem backups are not very useful - really just a DR tool. 
What do you do if a user wants file(s) restored? Restore all their files 
from a point in time? Or restore the filesystem, mount it somewhere and 
manually copy files?

The whole filesystem backup takes us back to the problems with 
individual filesystems. You are going to back up a user's whole 
filesystem, including all the freespace from the largest file they ever 
deleted, because they logged on and updated .sh_history? Or worse - can 
the filesystem change indicator tell the difference between a data 
update and a metadata (e.g. last accessed date) change?

I'm not saying everything is equal, I'm just saying that freespace is a 
lot cheaper than managing a lack of freespace.

-- 
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: looking for RSYNC for OMVS [was: Preferred FTP Client for Windows]

[david rintoul]

rsyncport is available on z/open tools site.-
https://github.com/ZOSOpenTools

On Sat, Jul 29, 2023 at 2:01 AM Rick Troth  wrote:

> And for my next question: what about RSYNC?
> I don't see it mentioned on the Co:Z web site. Didn't find it on
> Rocket's web site either.
> I thought I heard a rumor about someone porting it, but I also don't see
> it under the z/OS Open Tools GitHub repository.
>
> RSYNC is the tool of choice for bulk file transfer on Linux, most Unix,
> MacOS, even Windoze (via CYGWIN, maybe WSL1).
> Stealing verbiage from Lionel, it would be impossible to speak too
> highly about RSYNC as a general tool for maintaining file hierarchies.
> The gotcha for z/OS would be ASCII/EBCDIC mixing, similar problem for
> those who use NFS between USS and other systems.
>
> -- R; <><
>
>
> On 7/28/23 11:38, Tom Brennan wrote:
> > Sounds great!  I've never used Co:Z, but I always assumed it was a mod
> > to the open source SSH code, with a new listening STC.  Interesting to
> > see John's note about it using IBM's SSH processing.  I'm not sure I
> > would have thought of that simple idea myself.
> >
> > Conversations in the past went like this:
> > User: Does the mainframe support sftp?
> > Tom: Sure!
> > User: Ok, so I can sftp PROD.PAYROLL to our Linux app.
> > Tom: Sure!  But... um...
> >
> > On 7/28/2023 8:01 AM, Lionel B. Dyck wrote:
> >> It would be impossible to speak to highly about Co:Z - and not just
> >> about their sftp server enhancement but also their other tools. They
> >> have provided what IBM should have.
> >>
> >> Check the license - it's free with some restrictions. And they offer
> >> a full support contract as well (which I would encourage you to
> >> consider if you're going to use it in production if only to support
> >> this great company).
> >>
> >>
> >> Lionel B. Dyck <><
> >> Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
> >> Github: https://github.com/lbdyck
> >>
> >> “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is
> >> what you are, reputation merely what others think you are.” - - -
> >> John Wooden
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> >> Behalf Of John S. Giltner, Jr.
> >> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 9:58 AM
> >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> >> Subject: Re: Preferred FTP Client for Windows
> >>
> >> Co:Z SFTP only talks SSH/SFTP.  It sits "on top" of IBM's ported
> >> OpenSSH.  So you need IBM's OpenSSH installed.
> >>
> >> To get/put z/OS files you do need to use some special command such as
> >> to put  a text file with LRECL=80 and fixed block  to z/OS
> >>
> >> ls /+mode=text,lrecl=80,recmf=fb,blksize=0,space=trk.1.1
> >> put //!ZOS.FILE.NAME
> >>
> >> To get a z/OS file that is text:
> >>
> >> ls /+mode=text
> >> get //ZOS.FILE.NAME
> >>
> >> To do binary it would be ls /+mode=binary.
> >>
> >> For OMVS files the get/put are just like any other *nix host. If the
> >> files are in EBCDIC you need the ls /+mode=text.  If they are binary
> >> or in ASCII you use /+mode=binary/
> >>
> >> Co:Z does have a config file where you can set defaults for mode,
> >> lrecl, blksize and everything else so you don't have to specify the
> >> parameters every time if you know what you going to be using most of
> >> the time.
> >>
> >> You can also use Co:Z as a client on z/OS to send/get files from
> >> other SFTP servers.
> >>
> >> On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 10:25:34 -0400, Rick Troth 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> This is great to hear, John. Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> For people like me, who need excruciating clarity, you're saying that
> >>> the SERVER in the Co:Z product groks traditional datasets as well as
> >>> USS files. Correct? Fantastic!
> >>> That means one can use a variety of clients, specifically several which
> >>> go via SSH. Is that also correct?
> >>>
> >>> You mention SFTP which is FTP-like behavior using SSH under the covers.
> >>> Contrast with FTPS which is traditional FTP but with SSL/TLS added.
> >>> I'm keen on the former because it uses a single channel. Though I much
> >>> prefer a one-shot command in any case, and 'scp' does that (and runs
> >>> via SSH like 'sftp').
> >>>
> >>> Does the Co:Z server speak both SSH (for SFTP) and traditional FTP?
> >>>
> >>> -- R; <><
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 7/28/23 07:34, John S. Giltner, Jr. wrote:
>  I use sftp  with Co:Z SFTP installed on the z/OS side.  It allows
>  access to z/OS files as well as OMVS files.  Where as OpenSSH on
>  z/OS only allows access to OMVS files.
> 
>  Under Windows you can use WSL, Putty, Cygwin, or any other CLI sftp
>  product.  I use Cygwin most of the time.
> 
> 
>  On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 16:06:52 -0500, Steve Estle 
>  wrote:
> 
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I work in a secure government environment and moving files up and
> > down from the mainframe (especially traditional ZOS datasets) is a
> > '' pita with Winscp and everything I read (including IBMMAIN
> > archives) is that tool is just pl