Re: [IceHorses] weird sudden death
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:27:05 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: I have never heard of this central nervous system problem in horses, but I´m certainly no expert in this. Was the mare in foal? Hi Gudrun No, she wasn't in foal. I wonder if perhaps she had a stroke. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] saddle pads
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:28:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: To repeat myself. Has anyone heard of limpet saddle pads? They are supposed to conform to your horses back. It is a non slip pad. Thanks Yes, I have used them in the past. They are very good, but expensive and not hard wearing. They are made from a grey, soft, foam-type material (one of these space age foams) about a quarter inch thick. I did find the horses got rather hot under them. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] weird sudden death
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:28:26 -0600, you wrote: Oh Mic, I'm so sorry. Are they any closer to understanding the cause? I haven't heard from her yet today. I didn't ask yesterday if they would have a post mortem done - Jane was just too upset - but I hope they will. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
[IceHorses] What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
http://www.notion.net/icelandichorses2007/qtpreviewT1.html I watched that video again this morning, and at the end, they interviewed the man, Stian Petursson, who won the WC T1 title on Jarl. The interviewer asked him if he had anyone to thank. He thought a minute and said that was difficult. When asked what he was thinking at the end, he said something about telling people who are going for the gold not to give up, and then said something about being surprised to win the second title, since the frontrunner had thrown a shoe. I couldn't help but notice that he never mentioned the horse, or gave him any credit. It was all about riders As many problems as exist in TB racing, or in today's competitive dressage, I can't remember a jockey or dressage rider who failed to thank the horse for a win when interviewed. It's probably happened, but most jockeys and dressage riders seem to have some genuine appreciation and affection for their mounts. Before they interviewed the guy whose horse blew out that hunk of hoof, I noticed that the guy stayed on the horse in the ring for a long time after the hoof incident, and when he left the ring, he finally dismounted...and lit a cigarette. I didn't see him even bother to stoop down to look at the damaged hoof. Nice. I also couldn't help but notice that those two horses, Jarl, the chestnut that won that title, and the black horse that blew the hunk of hoof, who apparently an initial favorite, were two of the ones with the most obvious winging problems. You can clearly see it when the horses enter the ring at the first of the video. It was also very visible at one point when Jarl rounded a corner. So, the top two horses either had serious conformation issues, or had seriously out-of-balance hoofs, or had very rough riders...or some combination of the above. I know that conformation is normally the cause of winging, but I think that the trimming/shoeing can also contribute, as well as the riding...maybe someone can offer some comments here? That's what is winning at the WC level...and I think both of those horses are highly sought after breeding stallions. I don't think either would have passed a normal pre-purchase exam when we were shopping for a very low-level child's hunter for my daughter when she was 11. That scares the crap out of me. Where will these horses be in 10 years if these are the top stallions? I still haven't gotten a reply about how I can order a copy of the full video. I'd really like to see more. I wonder if anyone in the USA has ordered a copy...? Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] weird sudden death
No, she wasn't in foal. I wonder if perhaps she had a stroke. To answer your question, has anyone heard of such: well, no I can't remember hearing of that exact situation. But, I've known of a good many horses who apparently died quickly, and the owners found them later. We wondered if our Mac might have had a heart attack, but that's just a guess. I guess it could just as easily have been a stroke, or something else. He apparently died without a struggle, and was fine the night before, and that's all we'll ever know. Since he died on a Friday night on a VERY hot day, getting a post mortem on him wasn't a realistic option. I hope they found out what the cause of her death was. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:14:48 -0400, you wrote: I noticed that the guy stayed on the horse in the ring for a long time after the hoof incident, and when he left the ring, he finally dismounted Had he dismounted before the end of the class, he would have been disqualified. As it was, he still kept his place in the final even though he didn't get a mark for fast tolt. It's very obvious that many of the top competition horses wing in tolt, though you don't see it so much in other gaits. It would be interesting to see video of them moving without a rider. In breeding assessments, horses which clearly show movement faults when not ridden (for instance going very close behind in trot) may gain higher marks if they don't show those faults under saddle. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: [IceHorses] What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
It's very obvious that many of the top competition horses wing in tolt, though you don't see it so much in other gaits. It would be interesting to see video of them moving without a rider. ... In breeding assessments, horses which clearly show movement faults when not ridden (for instance going very close behind in trot) may gain higher marks if they don't show those faults under saddle. Interesting. I'm used to mainly thinking of winging as a conformation problem...and I suspect there almost has to be a conformational element for a horse to show it as markedly as these two did. But, I've never seen a demonstration of exactly how much riding and shoeing/trimming can be a factor. Either way, something is seriously amiss. If a horse can't tolt without winging, something is awry. It's one reason I'd like to get the full video, to see if I might see other angles of these two horses, in other gaits. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Re: Feed and supplements
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we had southern states here. I supplement with Gro Strong by alliance, loose, and we have coastal bermuda hay. Janice --What made you decide to go with Gro Strong Janice? I did some looking into different supplements, and this stuff really caught my eye. It doesn't have any starches or sweet stuff added, which appeals to me for Osp. How much do the horses normally eat when fed loose? And did you notice if there was a difference in the amount they ate initially versus after they had it for a while? Thanks! Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep. Melnir is very green, and I'm a believer that the first few months of training should mostly be walk, walk walk. I did finally get Cary to tape a few little bursts of flat walk and foxtrot that he freely offered. I have no qualms about posting my in progress videos. I'll keep doing it too. I think it's good to show good examples of how we do things, not just the finished product, I think the most important part is how we get there. If it came from the general population I assume it came from, who cares? It's more about status to them than about the horse. Kim
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
If it came from the general population I assume it came from, who cares? It's more about status to them than about the horse. Exactly, and who of us cares one whit about status? I sure don't. Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] saddle pads
To repeat myself. Has anyone heard of limpet saddle pads? They are supposed to conform to your horses back. Lorraine Lorraine: I've seen them at horse expos. They are thin pads mad of some kind of foam, maybe memory foam. When I saw them there was no cover. They looked like they would stick but I thought they might not be very breathable. Haven't tried one though. I've found 100% wool felt or wool fleece(not the blends)sticks pretty well. Cherie
[IceHorses] Re: Saddles
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How weird do you suppose it would look if I hung them on the dressage saddle? I'd sure feel safer. Nancy ---If it works for you, then go for it! Besides, looks are only for the show ring, not the real world :-). I have been using EZ Rides with full tapaderos on my Sensation Dressage. Looks kinda like a trooper style saddle. I LOVE my EZ Rides! Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting. I'm used to mainly thinking of winging as a conformation problem...and I suspect there almost has to be a conformational element for a horse to show it as markedly as these two did. Karen Thomas, NC --I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? And how does winging affect a horse from a long-term health standpoint? Is there a certain conformation feature that makes it less hazardous on the long term health of the horse (if it's hard on the horse)? Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
--I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? And how does winging affect a horse from a long-term health standpoint? Is there a certain conformation feature that makes it less hazardous on the long term health of the horse (if it's hard on the horse)? No, that's not correct. What's accepted in Peruvians is something called termino which is not the same thing as winging. From the pictures I've seen, the action of termino begins at the shoulders, and the whole leg moves in an arc... although I've heard from a chiropractor that unknowing breeders are mistaking termino for winging, so it's showing up in that breed too. I don't know many Peruvians though, so that's definitely secondhand. I don't know much about termino, and don't think I've seen it very often. There is a section clarifying termino in Lee Ziegler's book - there may be better sources for explaining it for all I know, but that's one source that many of us have easy access to. Judy posted a link recently to winging, which has many implications. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 9/18/2007 11:53 AM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
The Peruvian movement known as Termino is not true winging - it comes from the shoulder, not the knee. I've seen a few Icelandics which do exactly the same movement, but not that many, and it isn't winging. Mic --I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? And how does winging affect a horse from a long-term health standpoint? Is there a certain conformation feature that makes it less hazardous on the long term health of the horse (if it's hard on the horse)? Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/19/07, Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it came from the general population I assume it came from, who cares? It's more about status to them than about the horse. Exactly, and who of us cares one whit about status? I sure don't. I agree. And you won't change the minds of people in that group anyway. Robyn S Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures. ~ The Dalai Lama
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
There's a Peruvian Paso where I board that has been having some serious soundness problems, so he's been on stall rest and thus getting a lot more attention from the rest of us than he might have otherwise. I think his owner would argue that he does not wing as we think of it, but has a distinctive gait. We were standing talking to Fabio over his stall door and noticed that his chest muscles are VERY developed. Looking at him from the side, his chest is probably three or four inches deeper in front of his front legs than it is behind (just in front of where his girth probably lies). He looks like a body builder with pecs. We wondered if this muscle development was a result of the way he moves or was the CAUSE of how he moves. His owner is the sort of person we would all like to sell horses to. She's an older single woman who commutes from her pschyiatric practice in San Francisco to Applegate, where she has her home and horses. She has no pets. Those horses get the best of care. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
There is a quote from my favorite novel of all time, the best humorous novel ever written in my opinon, and is a magnificent southern novel. It is entitled A Confederacy of Dunces, published 11 years after the author killed himself. His mother took his manuscript to LSU and asked an english professor there if he would read it and see if it was good enough to send off for publishing. it won the pulitzer prize. and was titled after this quote: by Jonathan Swift: When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. janice yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Saddles
I cant live without EZ rides and I put them on every saddle i ever use and I cant reallly figure out what there is about them that help me feel more secure. I dont jam my feet real deep in them. I kinda think its that I am not in a fixed position in the stirrup. because they are so wide I can kinda angle my feet at an angle that is more safe and secure for me. I have very chubby thighs and if you try and force me into a correct dressage position it just doesnt work at all. Picture a kid in a snow suit with arms and legs straight out :) something like that :) Its more than just not having knee pain after a while like I do in other stirrups, there really is a sense of security. Also in english stirrups I feel like they are too free moving. Dont knw why or why I feel EZ rides arent. Just do. when I put pressure in the stirrup it doesnt go anywhere real fast like an english stirrup does... Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
On 9/19/07, dawn_atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? yes, they wing from a different place, their conformation is such that they wing from the shoulder I think it is, but a definite conformation thing. I have seen them gait and wing and it looks very different I dont know how to describe it. Their whole body frames up differently. I have seen walking horses wing and paddle out in back too, and it looks different. I wish I had the technical knowlege to explain it! All I can say is when peruvians wing they appear to be very collected and their front, in the chest appears to be in a different frame for gaiting than when a walker does it. When a walker does it he seems to do it more from the legs and seems more constrained... again I dont know how to describe. One way to describe... have you seen men, football players, run through a course of rubber tires? How each foot lands in the center of a different tire so they are going along with legs farther out from the hip, not from lower down. Its like that. The winging doesnt come from lower down. And I have never seen one wing that wasnt in a gait where they seemed very elegantly bent at the poll. Also they werent going fast fast like a racker so dont know what gait. Walkers winging were going fast like a racker. Peruvians seem to do it more elegantly. These are my observations. In the icelandic video the winging seems to be too much swaying side to side. a peruvian does not swing side to side like that when winging. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
Interesting. I'm used to mainly thinking of winging as a conformation problem...and I suspect there almost has to be a conformational element for a horse to show it as markedly as these two did. When I took a USDF dressage judging weekend class the question of a horse that is winging came up. We were told that this absolutely shouldn't be a consideration in the score because this is not what they are being judged on. I am sure this is the same in the WC classes. Now whether it should be part of the judging is another whole issue. I do know that it is considered a fault and judged so, when Hanoverians go for their inspection (and probably the other warmblood inspections, too) - which is a breeding evaluation. That is probably more of an appropriate place for this to be penalized. Of course, if I were considering breeding to one of these horses, their winging in competition would be part of the consideration. -- Laree
Re: [IceHorses] weird sudden death
I thought about this some last night. It could be so many things. But you could rule out things I know I saw a horse die of a heart attack once, he was thrashing in horrible pain and running with sweat. So it probably wasn't that. I have seen horses with neurological illness, they stagger and look at you like they don't seem to recognize things anymore. And they don't die within a few hours they go down and try and struggle up and get worse and worse over a period of days I am no expert, I am just thinking aloud trying to help. Sometimes there is no answer... like people it is just their time! and that is hard to accept sometimes... and so heartbreaking. My friend had a horse die of a stomach cancer growth and she acted like a colicky horse for a couple of months and then started having her belly fill with fluid til she was in such pain, it seemed like a terrible colic. Mosa's symptoms are more like something very sudden took her. When My Gallant Boy died, just lay down and didn't roll once, some people said his hear just failed, and one person on the list said it could have been an arythmia (sp?) but it seems like Mosa, like my Gallant Boy, knew something was wrong and that is why she followed to the gate. my Gallant Boy came to me, and stood by me, followed me, the evening before, and when i pet him I felt he had an unusually low body temperature. he was dying then, and he knew something was wrong and was telling me. But it was his time. Her stepping backwards seems like trying to move away from some pain, or an imbalance, which could have been a neurological thing, an aneurysm or something. But rabies and west nile are both extremely aggressive neuroloigal killers once they start in earnest and it takes at least a couple of days of very strange, obviously very ill behavior. Mosa did not seem to show that type thing. staggering, dragging feet, going down, drooling, unfocused eyes, off her feed... It was just her time Mic! I am sorry. janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
Have you ever noticed that sometimes you can post people need to stop abusing horses and inevitably someone comes out with Janice is a huge jerk and I dont like her or her posts and then other people come out oh I love Janice and her posts and then others Janice is an idiot, a lackey then others oh dont be mean to janice I adore her! then next thing you know, voila, it isnt about helping horses at ALL anymore. Its about who is good and who is bad. and guess who loses? Horses. Its is about whose queendom is being usurped, whose power infringed, whose ivory tower crumbling, which goddess is best. and who is still cranked in a tight dropped noseband, mouth gaping? horses. so guess what, you are right. I am an idiot, a lackey, a bad person, a goofball, a stupid jerk. Now lets move on and help these poor dumb animals who only want to please and are suffering at our hands if we do nothing to help them!! how on EARTH can you love horses and not want them helped?! How can you live with yourself knowing every time someone speaks out to help these horses you deliberately try to change the subject to who is bad, who is good, just so nothing changes. and if nothing changes, nothing changes. Shame on YOU! I'm NOTHING. I am NOBODY. Get off your bougois (sp) snooty rear end and be FOR something other than going to the mall and help effect change in this world. Thats what life is all about! Not whether I am a jerk or not?!? a hundred years from now no one will ever remember I existed, but if in a hundred years there is one more horse somewhere gaiting along comfortably, relaxed, happy, then what will it matter whether I was a jerk or not?? get OVER yourself. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Training suggestions?
Oh boy - I may not be up for that, but you and your friend are absolutely right about the power chair. Tosca leads beautifully beside it. We've also ground driven her from the chair. The other thing we've noticed is that all the dogs learn to heel quickly beside the wheel of a wheelchair. I wonder if it is less human and more mechanical, therefore concrete. The power chair does not do well in the sand of the round pen and arena. We tried having Stephanie work her pony in the round pen - it was a no go. Tosca looked at her and said, You want me to WHAT? I had another thought about Tosca's stopped feet. She seeme to learn abnormally fast and then get stuck on what she has decided I am going to ask of her. For instance, it seems as if she was worked (in her other life) first in one direction in the round pen, then in the other direction, then stopped and put away. SO that's her choice. First we go in one direction, then we go in the other. I ask her to whoa, she does and she's all through. She has learned (with a furrowed brow) that now we will be mixing it up a little, but she's still acting like I am the one that's confused. With young horses, I normally have a goal for a day's session. When it's met, we quit, even if it was a 10 minute lesson, ESPECIALLY if it was a 10 minute session. Tosca has been doing really well, so she's had some very short rides. I think her clock timed out yesterday. You know the drill, I've done my ten minutes, let's go back to the barn. Nancy
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Robyn Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Exactly, and who of us cares one whit about status? I sure don't. I agree. And you won't change the minds of people in that group anyway. Robyn S I wholly disagree with this. There are absolutely people who can, will and do change. You will not change everyone. But there are those out there who maybe have something happen and they start realizing that there is a better way. But alienating, disrespecting, demeaning and undermining them and perpetuating the them versus us mentality is surely not the way to get across to some of the ones who may be inclined to change. The goal is to help people realize what's best for the horse is it not? The post that Judy had on Eidfaxi was far more educational than demeaning. To me, this is the way to really get through to the people who need it the most. Education, mutual respect, keeping an open mind to seeing the slightest change in those who ARE open to change and treating others with respect is the key. The person bashing has begun on the Eidfaxi blog, but it's interestingly mostly one sided with very little education to back up that side. I think the key to success in helping the horse is to not get sucked into the nastiness with the same nasty replies and instead just simply get the education out there. Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan Fuzzy Logic Equine
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:34:44 -, you wrote: I think the key to success in helping the horse is to not get sucked into the nastiness with the same nasty replies and instead just simply get the education out there. Well said, Dawn. I think if people selling horses, particularly in Iceland and Germany, realise they are losing a big chunk of the market, that might also help. Appealing to people's better nature might not always work (some people don't seem to have one) but hit them in the bank account, and they seem more eager to change. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Head Carriage Caused by Hard, Cruel Rein Contact / Kapitzke
I would encourage anyone, everyone, to buy Kapitzke's book: http://tinyurl.com/2o6m8x He talks about rein contact, mentioning that strong flexion, holding the horse's head behind the vertical, is uncomfortable for the horse and should only be used as a reprimand. He talks about starting horses without nosebands which would ensure that the horse's mouth is not bound together, restricting chewing, and this would enable the rider to get a feel for rein contact. He also talks about the dropped noseband limiting chewing ability and preventing the horse from opening his mouth (not a good thing) and that it disguises hard hands. He says that the freedom of chewing with no noseband is good for relaxation of the horse and on the other hand, the tight noseband causes tightness in the tongue and jaw, which can cause problems in the head, neck, and back. He shows pictures of noseband-less horses accepting the bit and being through. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Drop Nosebands / Curbs / Mic
Thanks Judy. I'm putting something together, still in progress. Will you share the article / report with us when it's ready? Thanks! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] weird sudden death
When my Joki died, he was fine and had a little massage the night before and was lying dead in the pasture the next morning. The grass was not at all disturbed, it was as if he just lay down. He had been having some weird symptoms, such as dragging his hind feet. His toes were worn down and he did choke a few months before on pellets, but was on pasture and looked good. He was only 21. Ann
RE: [IceHorses] What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
When I took a USDF dressage judging weekend class the question of a horse that is winging came up. We were told that this absolutely shouldn't be a consideration in the score because this is not what they are being judged on. In sport, yes, conformation isn't a criteria...but have you ever looked at the FEIF breeding evaluation rules and scoring? Conformation is only 40% of a horse's total score, and legs are a small percentage of the conformation score. With ridden abilities being 60% of the score, that leaves a lot of leeway for a horse with weak conformation in the most critical body parts to still get a high score. And no matter how many times I read and reread the FEIF breeding evaluation rules, I can't get a feeling whether the leg traits that I value most are weighted much at all. I've seen a few highly evaluated horses who have questionable legs, and that worries me no end. And of course, we all know that WAY too often, people breed to what wins in the show ring, no matter what breed. As much winging as we see in the competition and evaluated horses, I've never heard it mentioned much by the folks who are into competition...many thanks to Mic for recently voluntarily noting her Skessa's winging. Skessa isn't a competition horse (that I'm aware of) but it's nice to see someone freely bring up a less-than-ideal conformation example, without someone threatening to eat the beast. Skessa certainly seems valuable to Mic for the mare's unique qualities, and that's wonderful - a lot of us have our own less-than-perfect perfect ponies. We can certainly love our horses without denying their idiosyncrasies. :) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 9/18/2007 11:53 AM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 19/09/2007, dawn_atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wholly disagree with this. There are absolutely people who can, will and do change. You will not change everyone. But there are those out there who maybe have something happen and they start realizing that there is a better way. But alienating, disrespecting, demeaning and undermining them and perpetuating the them versus us mentality is surely not the way to get across to some of the ones who may be inclined to change. But seriously, how long has Judy been providing information and still the trolls come on to argue? How do you capture someone's attention if they are determined not to listen? How do you shock them and make them sit up and pay attention? I've been learning things for years on Judy's lists and at no time did I feel alienated, disrespected, demeaned or undermined. Stupid after the fact yes, and wishing I knew then what I know now type of thingbut still a better horse person for the experience.. Wanda happily riding my ponies...
Re: [IceHorses] Head Carriage Caused by Hard, Cruel Rein Contact / Kapitzke
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:13:25 -0700, you wrote: I would encourage anyone, everyone, to buy Kapitzke's book: What is Kapitzke's background/history? Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
When I took a USDF dressage judging weekend class the question of a horse that is winging came up. We were told that this absolutely shouldn't be a consideration in the score because this is not what they are being judged on. I would agree with that. The dressage test isn't about conformation, or even a breed. And maybe the sport competition isn't about conformation, but it should show the best of the breed. Using a video from whatever discipline for educational purposes in regard to conformation, is a good thing. Imagine how much better the horses would do with good legs and correct movement! Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/19/07, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 19/09/2007, dawn_atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wholly disagree with this. There are absolutely people who can, will and do change. You will not change everyone. But there are those out there who maybe have something happen and they start realizing that there is a better way. But alienating, disrespecting, demeaning and undermining them and perpetuating the them versus us mentality is surely not the way to get across to some of the ones who may be inclined to change. But seriously, how long has Judy been providing information and still the trolls come on to argue? And those are the ones that I refer to. Not the people new to the breed who have been influenced by traditional riders and methods. Its the ones who regard those of us into natural methods as lunatics who don't know what we're talking about. Those are the ones who won't change. So sadly, it IS going to be us vs. them, to a degree. And Janice, I truly appreciate your lack of ego--THAT'S what separates true horsemen from merely riders. Robyn S
Re: [IceHorses] Head Carriage Caused by Hard, Cruel Rein Contact / Kapitzke
What is Kapitzke's background/history? Here's some info: Regardless of riding discipline, a physical and psychological harmony between horse and rider can only be fully realized if a means of communication between partners is established, a need which has led to the development, over time, of bridles, bits, and reins. In this book, renowned horseman Gerhard Kapitzke clarifies the important role of these frequently misused items of tack, illustrating how establishing an independent seat and allowing the evolution of a common balance, rather than forcing a particular head carriage, will produce a comfortable, happy horse and unhindered lines of communication. Horsemanship can find expression in many forms, from the dressage arena to the mountain trail. Regardless of riding discipline, a physical and psychological harmony between horse and rider is what is most important. This harmony can only be fully realized if a means of communication between partners is established, a need which has led to the development, over time, of bridles, bits and reins. Despite generations of horseback, many riders still see bits and bridles as a means of coercion, rather than lines to facilitate communication. In this book, renowned horseman Gerhard Kapitzke clarifies the important role of these frequently misused items of tack, illustrating the horse's natural movement and how a rider can seek to develop an independent seat and allow the evolution of a common balance, rather than forcing a particular head carriage. The author provides a basic training outline that ensures the young horse has time to build musculature, understanding, and the desire to communicated with his rider before he is asked to respond to a complex bride and intricate rein aids. The rider's ability to fulfil his role as partner is also addressed, and Kapitzke explains now only how to properly choose and adjust tack, but also how to cue for half-halfs and hold the reins of a double bridle in various ways. Perhaps most valuable are the accurate descriptions and illustrations of various types of bits and their adjustments and corresponding effects. Kapitzke acknowledges that, in order for a rider to be sensitive enough to 'hear' what the horse is telling him, he needs to have a thorough understanding of the action of the bridle and bit he is using. Every trainer who desires a harmonious relationship with his mount, in competition or recreation, will value the honest dialogue that will commence with a comfortable, happy horse and unhindered lines of communication. Then, the author writes, the act of riding will become 'a conversation between two friends'. Gerhard Kapitzke has loved and studied horses all of his life. He is a passionate rider and has become a renowned expert on horse behaviour, writing numerous articles and several respected equine reference books, including the best-selling The Horse from A to Z. He lives in Hanover, Germany. Friederike Butler, who translated this work from the German, was born in Germany and has since lived in both Canada and the United States. Horses and dressage have been her undeniable passions all her life. Currently, she teaches English and German to high school students in Scottsdale, Arizona, where she lives with her husband, son and their horses, Rajah, Tessa and Flame. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Training suggestions?
i think when they stick if you can get them to even LEANNN a little and you release pressure and praise it helps them figure it out. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Training suggestions?
Hey Nancy, we go to the papermill and get free sections of rubber conveyor belt material and put under the feed buckets and at my washrack and other areas. Guess if I had stalls could use it for that. But I bet if you got even tarp material and somehow anchored it, put a layer of mulch or straw over it, something, you could make a stable flooring in your roundpen that would allow stephanie to take her scooter around. my friend ruth has grass in her roundpen area. her scooter has fat tires. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Favortie Sidepull
I wish you could post a picture! My only gripe with sidepulls--- they are so plain. I dressed mine up by adding conchos :) And also, even tho icelandics NEED sidepulls more often than many breeds because of their mouth/palate shape/size, the throatlatch is too short even on my icelandic sized one. So I wish they would start making them prettier, with choices, like you could have buckaroo stitching, vee browbands, silver, conchos, interesting color/materials options like horsehair inlays and rhinestone, ostrich etc. Just my sidepull wishlist :) Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Favortie Sidepull
Last week I received my new All in one Bridle made by Crit Taylor, and it's better than I could have imagined. Very nice one! Janice said: My only gripe with sidepulls--- they are so plain. I dressed mine up by adding conchos :) You should try Kaaren's Rhythm Gems: http://kaarenjordan.com/KaarensJewelry.html scroll down to the ones with bells :-) Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
[IceHorses] Restricting Breathing
Kapitzke talks about this (restricting breathing) quite a bit in his book. It's merely common sense tho, if you think about it. Say we put on a dropped noseband, slide a couple of fingers in there, and all looks well. That's on the static horse. Now, put the horse in motion, with a rider, and we not only have a dynamic horse, but dynamics and mechanics between horse and rider. With the rider's influence on the bit, the noseband may, or may not, be a protection to the horse from the bit and the rider's hands. When we see the old cowboy movies or the old cave paintings or carvings of horses opening their mouths from the bit they *have* the option to open away from the pain / action of the bit. The horse with a noseband that fits statically, does not have that option. He may try to open away from the pain / action, but he is stopped, and it then negatively impinges on his breathing There's no way *out* for a horse with a dropped noseband. These are the circumstances that Louis Taylor is referring to when he mentions horse controllers versus horsemen. Is there something wrong with relying on horsemanship and not a noseband? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/19/07, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you capture someone's attention if they are determined not to listen? How do you shock them and make them sit up and pay attention? How do you disagree and then maintain your stance when people start calling you names just for having a different belief? you look at pictures like this: http://gallery.mac.com/jtfreeman/100035/DPP_0225/web.jpg janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] kneeing a horse
i just find every time i enter into a power struggle with a horse, I lose. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Training suggestions?
Usually, you can get them started off again by turning them and then riding away straight. She just kept doing turns on the haunches, which was kind of cute, but was coming a little early in her training. She turned nicely in either direction. She also felt like she would like to move backwards, which I think can become a nice evasion if taught before they're moving nicely forward. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
But seriously, how long has Judy been providing information and still the trolls come on to argue? I think it's time to address the subject line question in light of where this thread has morphed... I don't know about you all, but I'm applauding Judy Ryder for so tirelessly crusading for the humane treatment and training of all gaited horses, particularly Icelandic Horses. And for how long...? What would we all do without Judy's efforts? :) Here's to Judy! Karen Thomas, is there an e-mail shorthand for clapping...? [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 9/18/2007 11:53 AM
[IceHorses] Re: Favortie Sidepull
You should try Kaaren's Rhythm Gems: http://kaarenjordan.com/KaarensJewelry.html Actually I must confess, I splurged on a set of rythem bells to hang on it but I love them so much I've been wearing 'em Janine
Re: [IceHorses] Overdeveloped Front End
my friends peruvian is very chunky everywhere, front and rear, a short, extremely compact and powerfully built horse, a very big and well developed chest, but big butt too:) like an icey but taller :) he is just gorgeous. I am madly in love with him. he is for sale to perfect home only, for 5500. he has won awards for riding in parades and has forelock rippling past his nose, as black as ink, and does the termino so elegantly. when she unloads him from the trailer he is snorting and wild eyed and you think oh jeez he is about to flip out and kill somebody and he acts like that at all times, in absolutely perfectly mannered control. I have never even seen him spook, yet he seems he's always about to flip out. she says he is like a stick of dynamite, but no fuse. I adore him. did I say that already? I need to win the lotto so I can have a hundred horses. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Overdeveloped Front End
I don't have pictures of Fabio, but I suppose I could take some. He's a pretty balanced looking horse. Right now he has a condition that's causing swelling to the check ligaments on both front legs. Initially the vet diagnosed that condition (sorry, can't remember the name) that is suspected to be a genetic anomoly in some Peruvian Pasos. He said that his legs presented as if he'd been ridden 1000 hours in deep sand. The horse's owner followed rehab instructions religiously and he was much improved on each of the next two sets of ultrasounds she had done. Oddly, this horse is VERY lightly ridden. The owner might work him for 10 minutes in the round pen then go to 1/2 an hour or so at gait (is it termino?) in the riding wing or maybe ride him around the ranch. He probably doesn't go half a mile three times a week, if that. He got out yesterday and was running up and down an alleyway between two pastures so we really got a chance to see him move. He was very animnated and his legs certainly appeared to rotate from the shoulder. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Overdeveloped Front End
Initially the vet diagnosed that condition (sorry, can't remember the name) that is suspected to be a genetic anomoly in some Peruvian Pasos. He said that his legs presented as if he'd been ridden 1000 hours in deep sand. The horse's owner followed rehab instructions religiously and he was much improved on each of the next two sets of ultrasounds she had done. oh no, its not DSLD is it?? Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Overdeveloped Front End
DSLD was the initial diagnosis. Because this horse had such a dramatic recovery, the vets (excellent lameness guys) decided that probaby it wasn't. However, Fabio had an episode this week of something our local equine vet treated as colic and that same afternoon I was reading about false colics in horses with DSLD. I suspect his owner will be waiting for a while to know the true outcome. She calls him Baby and refers to herself as Mommy. I certainly hope he recovers. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
On 9/19/07, Laree Shulman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's to Judy! Yes, Here, Here !! - Thanks for your courage +1!! Robyn S -- Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures. ~ The Dalai Lama
[IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you capture someone's attention if they are determined not to listen? How do you shock them and make them sit up and pay attention? I'm not so sure we can. Ugh, I actually went and read that stuff on Eidfaxi, it really makes me mad:), but at the same time, really, they are so defensive and trying to be insulting, it's really not rational. Unfortunately, I have actually heard things like this out of people's mouth's in real life, it really turned me off. What it seems like to me is that a few people are looking for status in a group, a good horse (one that costs a lot of money and does speed racking:)), that might get you into the group, and everyone else has ponies who are from slaughter lines:) These people are actually a little bit funny, just don't let anyone see that the emperor really doesn't have any clothes. I don't think it is either/ or/ like if I ride my horses with good horsemanship, they can't perform well. I think they can perform well, I don't know if I have any speedrackers yet, maybe not:) I don't see why a good fast tolt, rack, whatever couldn't be done with good horsemanship, I think it could. It's fun to go fast, I just don't want to see the harsh bits, and yanking, pulling, it's really an unattractive picture and in my mind takes away from the talent of the horse, it's so distracting. People who don't see it, they see a something good, well, I'm sure the spider crawl looks good to the TWH people who like padded up horses, they think it looks great, other people who aren't used to it are disgusted. Kim
[IceHorses] Dagur
Dagur's eyes were practically healed untill he rolled. You're invited to view these photos online at KODAK EASYSHARE Gallery! Just click on View Photos to get started. http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=dhvd1vg.y6jp03kx=1y=-lwobh3 If you'd like to save this album, just sign in, or if you're new to the Gallery, create a free account. Once you've signed in, you'll be able to view this album whenever you want and order Kodak prints of your favorite photos. Enjoy! Instructions: Click view photos to begin. If you're an existing member you'll be asked to sign in. If not, you can join the Gallery for free. http://www.kodakgallery.com/Register.jsp Questions? Visit http://help.kodakgallery.com. EASYSHARE Gallery Customer Service Phone: (800) 360-9098 If you cannot see the links above, copy and paste the following URL directly into your browser: http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=dhvd1vg.y6jp03kx=1y=-lwobh3 IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [IceHorses] kneeing a horse
i just find every time i enter into a power struggle with a horse, I lose. Janice -- Ya. They are a bit stronger. I dislocated my left shoulder restling with a horse. I was very young and dumb. Lorraine Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
Re: [IceHorses] What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:58:42 -0400, you wrote: Now whether it should be part of the judging is another whole issue. In the FIPO classes for youth and novices, a mark is given for the rider's seat and aids. I would like to see that happen in the main classes too. (nothing to do with horse conformation - that's a whole other subject) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
[IceHorses] A different set of values I guess
I keep noticing this now. Look at this article about the World Championship title, the class where the horse lost the huge hunk of hoof. http://en.eidfaxi.is/English/News/Read/1276 Note that the name of the winning horse isn't mentioned anywhere. Stian is the name of the rider and BTW, the chestnut horse's name is Jarl; too bad that Eidfaxi didn't bother to name him. This is the same horse that the rider didn't bother to thank when he was interviewed after his victory. Poor horse. I believe Jarl might be the same chestnut whose tongue showed evidence of bleeding in one of the pictures Mic submitted. Mic will tell me if I'm wrong, I'm sure. When Emily was showing Thunder and they were doing so well, sometimes we'd be somewhere - a clinic or a trail ride maybe - and people would come up and say, Is that Thunder Bay? They typically couldn't remember Emily's name, but they would remember Thunder. The same thing happened to us, where we'd be somewhere and recognize a horse, but we couldn't remember the name of the rider. I think that tells us a lot about the different values in the USA, versus in Iceland. You can clearly see how badly Jarl wings in this picture. Nonetheless, I'll say it: Congratulations, Jarl. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 9/18/2007 11:53 AM
Re: [IceHorses] Kapitzke
Gerhard Kapitzke has loved and studied horses all of his life. He is a passionate rider and has become a renowned expert on horse behaviour, writing numerous articles and several respected equine reference books, including the best-selling The Horse from A to Z. He lives in Hanover, Germany. The cover of his book also says: Kapitzke has become a renowned expert on horse behavior and anatomy, which he studied intensively at veterinary school. Here's another one of his books: http://www.dhd24.com/azl/index.php?anz_id=7597925 and: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=140157445370ih=004category=24364ssPageName=WDVWrd=1 A site: http://www.dressageworld.de/dressurgeschichte/1/ehome.htm or: http://www.dressageworld.de/dressurgeschichte/1/ If you scroll down the page for Chapter 1, you will see other books of his. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
[IceHorses] Re: Favorite Sidepull
Hi Again: I make a Harmonizing Gem for humans ( on the web-site) that is only $20.00 (less than the Rhythm Gems), so both you your horse can have one. Custom designs with your favorite gems are always welcome. Just call me to see what I have in..lapis is a bit hard to find since it is mined in northern Afganistan that isn't a good place for even Afgani stone traders to go now!! Kaaren Jordan http://kaarenjordan.com
[IceHorses] took Scooter out
Just took Scooter out for a short ride. I tried a hack on him. He was trying to turn around on me. So I switched to another bridle with a bit. Boy did he respect me then. I hardly did anything too. He is so cute. LOL I think the hack will work if I am out with people. We will see Lorraine Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/
[IceHorses] Bareback Butt
My husband came home today when I was facing into the refrigerator putting groceries away, and said, Did you ride today? I said, Yes, why? He said, I can always tell by the dirt on your butt. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?!
People who don't see it, they see a something good, well, I'm sure the spider crawl looks good to the TWH people who like padded up horses, they think it looks great, other people who aren't used to it are disgusted. I'll never forget when I was at the Rocky Mountain Horse Expo some years ago, and a man came out on a racking saddlebred for the ASB breed demo. The horse's head was yanked back, and his feet were lifting so ridiculously high it was pathetic. And people were LAUGHING because this poor horse looked so silly. And at a big jumper show I went to once, one of the horses refused a jump two times. The rider took his crop and started whacking the crap out of the horse on its neck, and people booed. The general public isn't stupid--people know when they see something wrong. Robyn S -- Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures. ~ The Dalai Lama
Re: [IceHorses] Bareback Butt
He said, I can always tell by the dirt on your butt. Why how nice. I think it is a compliment for sure Lorraine Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/
