Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
I expressed these concerns to the German lady who was > judging > ding ding. a clue. Janice -- resepct all beings except those who disagree with you.
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>> I disagree. I am not worried about appearing to sanction the evaluation >>> process, since that is already so firmly in place. With so few Icelandic's in the USA, and even fewer getting evaluated, I don't think I'd call it "firmly in place." I think it's tenuous at best. >>> There are plenty of caring USIHC members who would not want the norm to >>> become 2 week old foals transported all over the place to be chased >>> around an arena without their mothers. But someone has to open the >>> dialogue or it will just happen by default. Anyone? Ok, exactly how many members are there in the USIHC? Isn't it just a couple of hundred? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
> but there are still some nagging questions. Annie What are the questions? Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>> I had two yearlings that I considered taking with me but changed my mind >>> when I realized how much it would cost to fill up my truck with gas and >>> pay the evaluation fee of $75.00 for each filly. I expressed these >>> concerns to the German lady who was judging and she said that as soon as >>> next year, she would be taking a road trip around the country, stopping >>> at people's farms to evaluate horses. Evaluations on Wheels! And...she's going to do this for free...? I doubt it. I'm sure there will be airfare from Germany, then airfare to each US city, then a daily fee (anyone know how much?), then hotel, rental cars, meals... If they REALLY wanted to "educate" the people about conformation, they'd (and by "they" I mean the USIHC or FEIF) could produce a video explaining what to look for, what defines the breed standard. Those who have been on the list for a few years will remember how many times I suggested it, so that it could sold to people who really want to study it in detail. There were a thousand excuses not to make such a video, and it never happened. It still hasn't happened, even in the age where every $100 digital camera makes videos. After a while, I realized why. In the meantime, I can pick up free manuals on conformation and judging from the 4H offices. I can buy conformation books and videos by Dr. Deb Bennett. Before she died, I could pick the brain of Lee Ziegler via e-mail, and thankfully she got her book written before her death. And we still have Liz Graves. The difference with Lee Ziegler and Liz Graves is that they don't simply judge your horse for you - they give (or gave, in Lee's case) us the tools and information to judge our own horses. Information that holds up to scrutiny and that is based in science. I really think that's the issue with the FEIF, the USIHC, and the whole evaluation system. They don't want owners to be empowered to make these judgements ourselves. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>--- Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ...If we focus on how foals are being evaluated, then I think that almost legitimizes the rest of the process, and I'm not ready to do that.<< I disagree. I am not worried about appearing to sanction the evaluation process, since that is already so firmly in place. However, we do have a chance to be part of determining if foal evaluations will be included in this picture and if so, how that will be carried out or to limit the evaluation process to young adult and adult horses. The window of opportunity on this is smallonce in place you cannot get rid of it. You don't have to be a member of either organization to go at this issue from a welfare of the foal stance. There are plenty of caring USIHC members who would not want the norm to become 2 week old foals transported all over the place to be chased around an arena without their mothers. But someone has to open the dialogue or it will just happen by default. Anyone? Ashley
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
Karen, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I went to the evalulations here in Georgia last Friday, the day when they were evaluating the youngsters. I had two yearlings that I considered taking with me but changed my mind when I realized how much it would cost to fill up my truck with gas and pay the evaluation fee of $75.00 for each filly. I expressed these concerns to the German lady who was judging and she said that as soon as next year, she would be taking a road trip around the country, stopping at people's farms to evaluate horses. Evaluations on Wheels! Everyone at the evaluation was given a book with a half page dedicated to a colt being evalutated. That half page gave a description of the colt leaving enough room to write notes. Some of the people who were not judging were grading the colts as they came through just for practice, and then jotting down the comments that the judges made and compared their marks with the judges'. So it was a learning experience for me. I think I understand the process a little better, but there are still some nagging questions. Annie
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
Under what umbrella is the evaluation of foals sanctioned? I really would hate to see Icelandic foals subjected to the cruel absurdity that goes on in say the quarter horse futurities$$. Prehaps its time to draft some protective language for younger horses in FEIF or USIHC if its not already in there. Anyone know if this can be done or if it is already there but ignored?" The bigger problem is that the whole premise of Icelandic "breeding evaluations" is flawed from the get-go. It's extremely flawed for judging adult horses. When I first considered breeding Icelandic's I read the FEIF rules from start to finish many times, and asked tons of questions. Much of the rules are very vague. Much of what isn't vague doesn't make sense. When I asked questions, I was told I should attend a judge's seminar...for a fee, of course, and one that would require hundreds or thousands in travel costs. Hmm. I'm all about learning, and I'll spend more than most people, but you know, if I can't evaluate the subject matter ahead of time... well, I wasn't born yesterday, and the FEIF rules told me plenty. If the process were truly about improving or preserving the breed, there should be no mystery about spreading the word. There are glaring errors in the whole process, and I realized that many people supporting the process can't answer basic questions about how they can possibly work - the Emperor's New Clothes Syndrome. Adding foals or young horses to this mysterious and dubious process is just plain silly, but then, the whole process is invalid. As Renee pointed out, leg conformation is extremely important to the long-term soundness of any breed. One of the worst sets of legs I've seen on an Icelandic was on a recently imported and "highly evaluated" stallion. He had serious cow-hocks and was very narrow based, with very long toes. Well, at least the toes could probably be fixed... His proud new owner advertised him as available to "add substance to the breed." He was taller, but no broader, no larger-framed than Melnir, who I freely describe as a pretty small Icelandic. How can a small-framed stallion with bad legs add substance to the breed? That makes no sense. (Did I mention that he was a "special" color...? He also had a nice mane...) As Judy pointed out, using bell-boots to disguise gait or conformation injuries is ridiculous - if you ever want to know the actual facts about a horse, it's when you are considering breeding. Do others remember a couple of years ago when a few marketing-savvy individuals introduced "breeding horse riders" to the process...supposedly riders dedicated to showing your horse so as to achieve the best evaluation score? For a fee, of course... Do people really think that riding-skill (or maybe, more accurately, riding force) gets marked into the horse's DNA? If we focus on how foals are being evaluated, then I think that almost legitimizes the rest of the process, and I'm not ready to do that. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
Actually, I was hoping to get more of a response to the last two paragraphs than the first two. to repeat: "as the interaction of natural ability and conformation are modified by habitual patterns of movement horses can and do stiffen up and/or get more lateral or diagonal as they mature. So what they do as babies or even as 2 year olds may or may not be what they show as mature adults. Under what umbrella is the evaluation of foals sanctioned? I really would hate to see Icelandic foals subjected to the cruel absurdity that goes on in say the quarter horse futurities$$. Prehaps its time to draft some protective language for younger horses in FEIF or USIHC if its not already in there. Anyone know if this can be done or if it is already there but ignored?"
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
So we've jumped from being a couple of weeks old to newborns, and from being not happy to being terrorized in a couple of keystrokes. Yes, I consider two-week-olds essentially newborns in this context. In fact, in THIS context, I'd probably consider any pre-weanling baby as a "newborn," ESPECIALLY if they haven't been handled. Have you seen many newborn foals? Maybe, you have, and I don't want to be condescending to those who have, but it's important that people understand. Within an hour, they are up and nursing. In a couple of hours, sometimes less, they can run. They are essentially born moving - that's not the issue to me. I'm not so concerned about the physical impact of this chasing (although that COULD present hazards as well) as I am the mental aspect. I can tell you from looking out in my pasture right now, that foals are basically blank slates, soaking up every experience, for a long time. And yes, I truly believe that they would be terrorized in such a context. I didn't have to see that in person - I just know what foals are like. If I caught anyone chasing my foals, that are now one month-olds, there would be heck to pay...with me, and with Maja and Flekka.Didn't you catch that they have to take the mares out to chase them?That's an important detail here. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
uhmn... have any of you actually LOOKED at a donkey up close?? They are cowhocked so bad their hocks knock and their butt sticks out about two feet past their back legs. They do a skittery little trot and a canter. I have all gaited horses that have been in with a donkey for years. Nasi has been with a donkey since weaned, and actually, its his best playground partner. he plays with that donkey for hours, most of the play running around and chasing each other. Not one of my horses has ever "moved like a donkey" one friggin step I beg your pardon in fact i would say it is conformationally impossible. if there was a young icelandic there moving like a donkey i hate to break it to ya, it aint the donkey making it move like that! here is in fact a video of nasi and our donkey playing and moving in unison. Does nasi look like he is moving like a donkey even tho he is matching him gaitwise in almost every way? or maybe the donkey is "moving like an icelandic". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1itkF7OI_NU People who have owned and bred walking horses for 70 years expressly breeding for gait can tell you straight away you can't create gait by putting another animal in with it. Even the idiots around here know that much! Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
I watched 3 mothers and young 1-2 week old foals be chased for 30-45 minutes before being caught The mother was then taken away and the foal was chased to watch it gait. Most of the foals were not happy. > > You're kidding me, right? At a place where they > chase and terrorize newborn foals around to see how they move? > Karen Thomas, NC<< So we've jumped from being a couple of weeks old to newborns, and from being not happy to being terrorized in a couple of keystrokes. That aside, it was on this list a couple of months ago that Judy posted the study that showed the babies being more impacted by the handling of the mother than by being handled themselves...at that young age where the mother goes, the baby follows(usually)...so are you telling us that the mares would not allow themselves to be approached? If the mares don't have that favorable human connection, then why would anyone expect the babies to reguardless of how much they are handled? They take their cues from the mama. And I agree that its fairly well known that the gaits in the first few months are fluid across many breeds, not just Icelandics...and as the interaction of natural ability and conformation are modified by habitual patterns of movement horses can and do stiffen up and/or get more lateral or diagonal as they mature. So what they do as babies or even as 2 year olds may or may not be what they show as mature adults. Under what umbrella is the evaluation of foals sanctioned? I really would hate to see Icelandic foals subjected to the cruel absurdity that goes on in say the quarter horse futurities$$. Prehaps its time to draft some protective language for younger horses in FEIF or USIHC if its not already in there. Anyone know if this can be done or if it is already there but ignored? Ashley
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
When do you first put the halter on them? >> Depends on the foal. If it's a very friendly one, then probably not until >> they leave >> mum (unless they need one on for other reasons that "simply" training). I >> tend to bring >> the wilder ones in with their mums and get them used to it sooner. And they don't leave mom until they are what...? 6-8 months or older? But why NOT put a halter on the friendly ones much earlier - and the less friendly ones as soon as you can make them friendly? Why not let them get used to such basics under zero-stress situations whenever it's possible? If you wait until longer there's a real chance they will NEED one for some reason, and then that's likely to be very stressful. Because if they "need" a halter, that probably means they are in some sort of stress - seriously ill or injured, or something. To me, that's the worst time to try to train a horse to do something, baby or adult. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
On Mon, 19 May 2008 17:33:29 -0400, you wrote: >Do you mean that they don't get their feet checked until they are weaned? Their feet are checked and rasped if necessary, with them standing next to mum. > >When do you first put the halter on them? Depends on the foal. If it's a very friendly one, then probably not until they leave mum (unless they need one on for other reasons that "simply" training). I tend to bring the wilder ones in with their mums and get them used to it sooner. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
On Mon, 19 May 2008 14:04:14 -0700, you wrote: >Do they do the foal evaluation in Europe as well? Or Iceland? They certainly do in Europe, and I think they have recently started doing it in Iceland do. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
This breed does not gait, for the most part, at liberty, and if it does, it's more than likely not a tolt Once again, I wish I'd known about this list before I went pony shopping. I would only look at ponies that gaited at liberty. I must have slimmed the available Icelandics quite a bit. I certainly am happy with the two we bought, but that was dumb luck. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
Hi Karen, >>Do you mean that they don't get their feet checked until they are weaned? >>When do you first put the halter on them? No they get their feet trimmed at about 2 months depending on how they are growing and wearing but we don't need to halter them to do so - sometimes we halter them to trim their feet and other times we just put on a body rope and halter them the next time. Robyn
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>> The mother was then taken away and the foal was chased to watch it >>> gait. Most of the foals were not happy. Here's another problem with people who don't know anatomy and biomechanics judging gaits...especially people with no experience outside this breed... What do they expect to see in gaits in the tiny foals? Do they not understand that even QH foals -or any three-gaited breed foals - often "gait" or pace when they are very small? That long legs and tiny-short bodies sometimes have to pace in order for the legs to become entangled? I wonder what these people would say about the "gaitedness" of a pacing Arab or QH or WB babies? Yet they terrorize the babies by chasing them without their mamas, when there's basically nothing to be learned about gaitedness at that age anyway. It's barbaric. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>> I do think the conformation part of the evaluation is helpful. It >>> helped me to see what is considered ideal in our great breed. I do not >>> agree that "correctness of legs" is not really important. Maybe I just >>> don't know enough to understand but being a physician I know that >>> incorrect joints/back etc. will effect development of arthritis in >>> humans. I think you know plenty, Renee. We each approach things like this from the basis of our education and understanding. You understand that from a medical perspective. I see and at least partly understand it from a "laws of physics" viewpoint that an engineer like me would have. I see this the same way that I see ice tolts - that the laws of physics act equally on all objects, be they animal, vegetable or mineral. There isn't one set of laws that apply to all the universe, but conveniently another set of laws that only apply to Icelandic horses. One would have to be pretty naive to believe that... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>> This breed does not gait, for the most part, at liberty, and if it does, >>> it's more than likely not a tolt so... how does the horse get the >>> tolt as a signature gait? I think there are a lot of Icelandic's who are naturally gaited, but I agree that many trot at liberty. I think that's fine - the ones with the solid trots at liberty often show good foxtrots and running walks under saddle, and those are great gaits too. But it's a valid question - how DID tolt come to be the breed standard gait? To use Runa as an example, I'm fairly sure she has rack/tolt in her natural repertoire. She's built to be multi-gaited. I'm sure she'll be able to do the breed gait without manipulation, certainly not with much. But she's OFFERING foxtrot on her own. What about the horses who struggle to even find foxtrot, the ones who are basically three-gaited? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
In a message dated 5/19/2008 10:19:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You're kidding me, right? No, I am not kidding but I believe that she only came to the riding part of the evaluation on Saturday. I did not see her there on Friday. Renee **Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod000301)
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
> The young horse evaluation started with mares and foals. Several > comments from the judges were "lack of energy'. Well, I watched 3 > mothers and > young 1-2 week old foals be chased for 30-45 minutes before being caught > and > hauled to the arena. They had lots of energy then. The mares were led > around > and then turned loose so they could be chased to watch the mother and > babies > gaits. The mother was then taken away and the foal was chased to watch > it > gait. Most of the foals were not happy. The judges did take note the > ones that > seemed to get the most upset and let the mothers back in quickly. What a bummer! I think that is barbaric. Personally, I do not have much faith in the knowledge or the training and education of the judges. The gait of the breed is based on mechanical aids, so I don't know how they could learn about what makes a good natural gait. > It was really interesting to see how different some foals were in gait > and build. Yes, there is not much consistency in the breed in conformation or gait, and I think it has something to do with the lack of knowledge of anatomy, conformation, and natural gaits by the breeders, judges, teachers, and clinicians. This breed does not gait, for the most part, at liberty, and if it does, it's more than likely not a tolt so... how does the horse get the tolt as a signature gait? Mechanical aids! > I do not agree that "correctness of legs" is not really important. Maybe > I just don't know > enough to understand but being a physician I know that incorrect > joints/back > etc. will effect development of arthritis in humans. Maybe your eyes are more open than the judges and breeders. Maybe you know more than they do. I also learned the maximum boot weight is 120 grams. And we should be asking: why boots? why not natural? If the horse needs boots to protect his legs from getting cut by other legs, maybe he shouldn't be ridden; maybe he shouldn't be bred. Let's breed the boot out of this breed! Let's breed the boot out of this breed by breeding horses that don't cut their own legs off when they move. >>>People did really > seem to try to take care of their horses that were there for riding > evaluation. There was a lady watching that does therapeutic riding with > 10 > Icelandics in S.C. that made the comment "I have never seen a show where > the focus is > on the welfare of the horse like it is here." I think that people genuinely love their horses, but they don't have the depth of knowledge to know that the saddle that they just bought "made specially for icelandics" is painful to the horse, and the noseband imported from Iceland, told by a certified professional FEIF Holar trainer to tighten it real snug will make their horse have ulcers, and the pounding of the feet with shoes AND boots, is not too comfortable for the horse. I think they don't have the experience or knowledge to know when the fluff stops and when the hurt to the horse starts. I think that the people really want to see that things are nice and welfare-y for the horse, but if they look a little deeper, it isn't. It's very barbaric. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>> The young horse evaluation started with mares and foals. Several >>> comments from the judges were "lack of energy'. Well, I watched 3 >>> mothers and young 1-2 week old foals be chased for 30-45 minutes before >>> being caught and hauled to the arena. They had lots of energy then. >>> The mares were led around and then turned loose so they could be chased >>> to watch the mother and babies gaits. The mother was then taken away >>> and the foal was chased to watch it gait. Most of the foals were not >>> happy. I'm sorry but that is so barbaric that it makes me want to puke. >>> People did really seem to try to take care of their horses that were >>> there for riding evaluation. There was a lady watching that does >>> therapeutic riding with 10 Icelandics in S.C. that made the comment "I >>> have never seen a show where the focus is on the welfare of the horse >>> like it is here." You're kidding me, right? At a place where they chase and terrorize newborn foals around to see how they move? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>>Nor me. I don't handle my foals much at all as I find they CAN get pushy, >>>but I always take time to work with them when they are weaned. That is pretty much what we do. The foals are handled enough to trim their feet and deworm them - easy to trim their feet with just a body rope and no halter - and they are not afraid of people but they are not pushy either. Do you mean that they don't get their feet checked until they are weaned? When do you first put the halter on them? Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
Hi Mic, >>Nor me. I don't handle my foals much at all as I find they CAN get pushy, but I always take time to work with them when they are weaned. That is pretty much what we do. The foals are handled enough to trim their feet and deworm them - easy to trim their feet with just a body rope and no halter - and they are not afraid of people but they are not pushy either. I think that when they are handled it is better to teach them something rather than just make them friendly as they can get overly friendly to the point of pushy fairly easily and then people get hard on them with isn't fair either. We bring them in to wean and halter and teach them to lead - they so quickly get friendly and loved being groomed in the spring. Do they do the foal evaluation in Europe as well? Or Iceland? The situation that Renee described doesn't make sense to me; I don't see any reason that the foals shouldn't have some in hand showing, although I guess you can manipulate the gaits that way as well. Robyn
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
On Sun, 18 May 2008 19:11:33 EDT, you wrote: > Of course most of these young horses >had only been handled once or twice ever. I just can't see this makes any >sense. Nor me. I don't handle my foals much at all as I find they CAN get pushy, but I always take time to work with them when they are weaned. They spend some time in the stable or in the little paddock near the house and learn about being caught, being led, being tied up, picking feet up, being groomed, being away from other horses etc. Some of them also learn how to play Sheep Football, but that's another story Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
is stormur slaughterhouse stock? Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
theres just something weird about this to me. I bought my Nasi as a weanling and I dont think he was handled a lot. He was with his dam and like all babies, I'm sure they went out to look at him a lot and give him pets over the fence etc but he was never "trained" to do anything, not to walk on a lead or get in a trailer I'm sure. But when I went to leave with him he led easily, he was a little bit of a scamp but very easily controlled and when he realized I wasnt gonna let him hop around he just very quickly became relaxed, walking in a docile manner at my side and with me all the way up into the trailer. he may have balked a little. he had only been weaned about two weeks I think. Maybe because he had never been chased by humans? I think that would have a negative effect on any young horse, one that might last forever, actually. My Jaspar walking horse was raised in a herd situation and brought out at age 3 into stocks, chased by humans, ran up into a trailer with whips and hollering. He broke three toes on my left foot the first time I tried to lead him anywhere. It took two years for me to get him to walk calmly up into a horse trailer. Thats what a horse gets to be when he is chased by humans. And it took ALL my patience and tolerance and two years of blood sweat and tears and broken bones and you know what? I cant do that again. I dont think many could because honestly I have way more patience and tolerance and forgiveness for problem horses than the average person, way way more from what I've seen. I mean, I can put up with a lot, but i would never consider buying a horse again that i had to worry about having bones broken just leading them or trying to force them into a trailer. many horses, young ones, horses rarely hauled, have to be shown a trailer isnt scarey. But the day you go off to be evaulated, jeez you would think they had been handled some. I guess my point is... i hope they dont intend to sell these type horses as well evaluated stock to people thinking they are getting a real sweet calm laid back animal because what they are getting is a problem horse that has issues at an early age and as they try to resolve issues, if not handled correctly, they can create a monster. I am just amazed. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
Therefore, the judge should be able to define the horses action by his conformation alone. There wouldn't be a need to chase terrified babies around And even if they don't understand conformation basics, a minimally trained two-year-old should be able to trot-out for inspection with the owner leading him. And in Renee's case, she says her baby knows the Parelli games, so she should be able to "circle" to show movement. As for evaluating gaits, I wouldn't bank on what I saw when horses are chased around, especially young horses. An excited horse will be constantly changing gaits, probably changing directions too, making it hard to isolate one gait from another, especially to the naked eye. Did they video and freeze-frame, Renee? And we all know that young horses go through phases where their gaits morph and change. Even QH horse newborns often show pace. When Runa was two-three-ish, I worried that she was too pacey. Now, under saddle, what gait does she offer first when asked to speed up from walk? Foxtrot. When she was younger, I saw her pace in the field WAY more than I was comfortable with, but now she TROTS at liberty a lot, and I've done absoutely nothing to change that. She just grew into her body and time and maturity made her change. I know she's conformed to rack/tolt too, but I'm not going to ask for it any time soon, not until she has her trail-horse-basics well understood and in place. Renee's colt probably DOES have the full range of gaits - that happens in this breed. But I'm not impressed with a system that uses that sort of handling to show gaits on young horses. I don't want to ride a chased-around, excited horse, so I could care less what gaits my horses exhibit in situations I won't be putting them in. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
Hi Renee: Just curious: where did the young horses come from and who was judging? Anneliese On May 18, 2008, at 7:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>> Therefore, the judge should be able to define the horses action by his >> conformation >> alone. There wouldn't be a need to chase terrified babies around But where is the machismo in that...? Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
i wonder like, these are breeding evaluations right? for young ones. So they should be looking for conformation analysis and temperament I would think? Also descended testicles maybe or something? If they could not be handled I dont see how they could judge temperament well. Oooh, another good catch from Janice. Absolutely, undescended testicles are MUCH more common in this breed than in any I've seen, and we certainly should be evaluating where that's coming from. If the horses can't be handled, and if picking their feet is a strange ordeal for them, then how can they check for parrot's mouth, undescended testicles, etc.? How can you evaluate conformation if you aren't somewhat "intrusive" to a horse? If the horses can't have their feet picked, that tells me they aren't getting regular farriery care...and the most important time in a horse's life for good farriery is surely his first 2-3 years, arguably his first 3-6 months! BTW, Hroi's testicles were fully descended at birth. Landi's never fully descended, but I had him gelded just before he turned one. I have no secrets on this topic and I urge everyone else to be forthcoming, so that we all may learn. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
2008/5/19 Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >>Did they explain why his conformation didn't allow for lift? When they >>mentioned his >>shoulders did they explain why they liked his shoulders but didn't like >>his lack of >>lift? > > > Oops. Good catch there, Wanda! That's inconsistent on the judge's part, > but very > telling. How can a horse have the desired conformation, but not have the > desired > "action"? The judges should know that conformation DEFINES the action - > knee action or > whatever. Therefore, the judge should be able to define the horses action by his conformation alone. There wouldn't be a need to chase terrified babies around Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>> I would have been furious if someone had tried that with one of my babies... Me too. >> Renee wrote: They remarked that his conformation would be first prize. >> Strong broad >> back, good hooves, good joints, good tendons, nice withers, nice shoulder >> and croup. >> He had a "coarse" head (whatever that means) >Did they explain why his conformation didn't allow for lift? When they >mentioned his >shoulders did they explain why they liked his shoulders but didn't like >his lack of >lift? Oops. Good catch there, Wanda! That's inconsistent on the judge's part, but very telling. How can a horse have the desired conformation, but not have the desired "action"? The judges should know that conformation DEFINES the action - knee action or whatever. You know what I see in that inconsistency? The reason behind the special shoeing, the special trims, and the weighted boots Lift isn't a natural trait of well conformed horses. Sure, some horses are conformed to have SOME knee action, and that's variable within the breed. BUT...wouldn't you think that the judges SHOULD know that the breeding conformation standards should be consistent with the kind of movement they see in the breed? This tells me a lot... And you know, it's quite possible to do some sort of GOOD conformation analysis be studying and marking the horse's conformation...and that doesn't require that the horses be unhandled and chased to show their "action via terror." What I'm NOT sure about is how much the horse's conformation is predictable by looking at his angles at age two...? I should ask Liz that. She's sure been right on the money when judging the conformation-for-gait with all my other horses. Renee, congratulations on Stormur NOT having lift - it's a waste of energy in a good, sensible trail horse! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
i wonder like, these are breeding evaluations right? for young ones. So they should be looking for conformation analysis and temperament I would think? Also descended testicles maybe or something? If they could not be handled I dont see how they could judge temperament well. if they gaited well that would make me believe they had good conformation. What lift were they aiming for? You could have told them the lift would come like it does for all the show horses, with weighted bell boots and other devices, the tight noseband etc. because if they are looking for lift without these devices then they are not looking for natural gait, they are looking for a gait that will look good when altered with devices. which is a mistake. This is what they have done to the walking horse breed, systematically bred the natural signature gait out of the breed by breeding for show gait. Whoch has to be altered with devices. also apparently breeding for horses with temperament that shows they will run around like a nut when chased by strangers. That is a great breeding trait in the icelandic horse i think, to be afraid of strangers. could prevent being stolen or something? I am sorta saddened that our breed has chosen this route... we should not even evaluate horses if there is not a noble, head above the crowd, criteria. Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He showed all 5 gaits naturally and they were all clear. He just did not have enough "lift" to his gaits. They remarked that his conformation would be first prize. Strong broad back, good hooves, good joints, good tendons, nice withers, nice shoulder and croup. He had a "coarse" head.<< I think your horse just got an A+ at the evaluation, Renee- I think I would be REALLY happy with that!! You have a winner. (Lift applies more if you wanted a horse to take to competition shows,and a refined head is just a "look" that is pretty) I want pictures of this fine young horse! Ashley Double A Tack Shop, Inc 796 Main Rd Holden, Maine 04429 207-843-6563 Open Tues-Sat 10am-6pm
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
>>>I decided to take my soon to be 2 year old to the young horse evaluations >>>just to see >>>what it was all about. I could not believe that he was just about the only >>>young- >>>horse (less than 4) that knew how to lead, get on a horse trailer, tie, >>>pick up his >>>feet, etc. ... I was told that Stormur was too calm and did not have >>>enough lift to >>>his feet. I have played/worked since he was born to desensitize him. He >>>does the >>>Parelli seven games and targets well with a clicker to anything he is >>>afraid of. He >>>would not run when they tried to chase him (HaHa). Well, good for you. "Too calm"...? It's what I've seen with my horses. I haven't seen a home-bred here yet that ISN'T calm - VERY calm. I don't know anyone over 50 in my area that doesn't want calm. I wonder why NH has had such a boost in popularity in the USA (and the world) over the past 20 years? I think it's because people WANT calm horses. People are spending boatloads of money to try to figure out how to make their wild or excitable horses calmer. VERY few people go to Parelli clinics (or those of other NH) to make their calm horses into unhandled wild horses. If you treat this breed like you treat other young riding horses of other breeds, they are the calmest breed I know. That is their strong suit, and we should be PROUD of it, not trying to make them into something they weren't born to be, just to satisfy some macho egos! >>> The young horses were herded from a pasture onto a trailer with great >>> difficulty as >>> the young horse evaluations were in an indoor arena down the road. The >>> young ones >>> were falling getting on and off the trailer. They were made to load in >>> and out the >>> side door (which I always thought was a NO! NO!) In the arena they were >>> chased around >>> to watch them move. Several of them got lose trying to get them back on >>> the trailer >>> and had to be chased to be caught. I was appalled. Of course most of >>> these young >>> horses had only been handled once or twice ever. I just can't see this >>> makes any >>> sense. That IS appalling but sadly, not surprising. I'd even call it barbaric. They just threw all the young horses into one trailer, and owners didn't load their own horses individually? I can't imagine putting one of my babies into the "cattle car." Remember that old "turnip foal" passage in that book that Nancy Marie Brown wrote? I know I've been reprimanded for witnessing my mare's births, but I KNOW it's what I should do. It makes no sense to me to treat my horses like cattle headed for meat. It's a totally different mindset than anything I care to be a part of. >>>The positive comments were that he had a lot of good natural tolt and trot. >>> He showed >>>all 5 gaits naturally and they were all clear. He just did not have enough >>>"lift" to >>>his gaits. They remarked that his conformation would be first prize. >>>Strong broad >>>back, good hooves, good joints, good tendons, nice withers, nice shoulder >>>and croup. >>>He had a "coarse" head (whatever that means) I didn't go to the evaluation, but I've seen enough in the videos I've watched that I believe you. You can read the FEIF conformation guidelines, and even though they are vague, you can see that there's nothing in them of any substance to reward the old-style, strong Icelandic horses. I don't see any reason to take my horses to be evaluated - I know how to evaluate soundness-related conformation, and there are sources in my area that I trust to give me unbiased assessments of the conformation of my horses - people who don't herd horses around like cattle! BTW, I think Icelandic's generally DO have fairly coarse heads...and I've learned to find them beautiful. It's what Icelandic's ARE, or at least what they have been in the past. Why shouldn't we amend our definition of beauty rather than try to change the breed? I'm sure that Stormur's head is beautiful! I find Arab heads odd looking now that I've morphed my standard of beauty. :) We don't ride heads. We DO ride horses, and we hope they are strong - of mind AND of body! >>> I did learn a lot about conformation and what they perceive as good. I do >>> not >>> believe that is what is best for me and my horse. Renee, he sounds very nice and it sounds like you've done a great job with him. Please don't change what you're doing. I suspect you'll want to keep Stormur for his entire life, but should the unexpected happen, you KNOW a horse like him would have a choice of good homes. That thought gives me the confidence to do what I do with my young ones. Thanks for the report, Renee. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Icelandic Horse Evaluations in Georgia
2008/5/18 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Several of them got lose trying to get them back on the trailer and had to be > chased to be caught. I was appalled. Of course most of these young horses > had only been handled once or twice ever. I just can't see this makes any > sense. Barbaric handling of babies... > I was told that Stormur was too calm and did not have enough lift to > his feet. Did they say why 'lift' would be an advantage? > He would not run when they tried to chase him (HaHa). I would have been furious if someone had tried that with one of my babies... > The positive > comments were that he had a lot of good natural tolt and trot. He showed > all 5 gaits naturally and they were all clear. He just did not have enough > "lift" to his gaits. So despite all his other attributes...they focused on the required 'lift'? > They remarked that his conformation would be first prize. > Strong broad back, good hooves, good joints, good tendons, nice withers, > nice shoulder and croup. He had a "coarse" head (whatever that means) Did they explain why his conformation didn't allow for lift? When they mentioned his shoulders did they explain why they liked his shoulders but didn't like his lack of lift? > I did learn a lot about conformation and what they perceive as good. I > do not believe that is what is best for me and my horse. Why? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Wanda -- Thoughts become things...
