[PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
Pierre Joye schrieb: Tell us the names of these entities, companies or persons, who are going to contribute and what are actually their requirements. What will they bring (saying expertise is not something I can buy)? I don't understand what is so hard to understand that it is a minimum to get before we can even discuss the CLA introduction. Let alone the fact that they don't consider us as good enough as discussions partner. Should be known, just to clearify... From MySQL side primarily Jay (Pipes) has been involved. Who can you talk to on MySQL side? Well, the usual suspects: me, Jay (Pipes), Georg (Richter), Kaj (Arnö), Giuseppe (Maxia), ... - and all the others being active in the PHP world. Who would contribute code? No clue, really. Check who has the skills for it and you can speculate, if that makes any difference to you. Ulf -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
Pierre Joye wrote: You (as group) We are individuals, all members of the mail lists. Tell us the names of these entities, companies or persons, who are going to contribute and what are actually their requirements. The general list of data access providers has been given before and isn't surprising. I can't represent anyone other than myself in these discussions. What will they bring (saying expertise is not something I can buy)? We bring development, maintenance, testing and documentation folk. We bring in-depth data access knowledge. We bring previous experience from working on standards. We bring experience from working on PHP. A side benefit is that this leads to more people familiar with PHP code and PHP processes. This grows the pool of talent with the potential to contribute to PHP in general (as my management would like me to do). The people are also able to help shape their future databases to help the PHP user, for example, Oracle's Database Resident Connection Pooling (DRCP). Chris -- Christopher Jones, Oracle Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Tel: +1 650 506 8630 Blog: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/ Free PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: OSS is a collaborative process that is not about some manager allocating some ressources here and there. People usually make personal commitments here and maybe this is the bigger culture clash than the CLA. Oracle contributes to a range of open source projects, big and small, mature and too new to be known. The commitments come at the personal level and from management who expect their staff to work on those projects. OSS projects accept contributions on merit, and that doesn't always mean knowing much about the background of the people contributing. What is being proposed is to turn part of PHP into something that is managed by a manager and the budget he gets allocated by a manager above him. The proposal is a broader approach to the design and implementation of a DB access layer. Instead of a piecemeal, ad hoc set of designs that ultimately reduces general productivity, I'd like to sit down and discuss what users want and create a coherent solution. People do not commit access for saying what company they work for. People get commit access once they have send enough patches that are top notch, that php.net decides they can trust them. This is the model of trust we have gone by. So if we are going to change this to start trusting a managerial process, the least we can ask is to have some interaction with the people that will most likely be involved there, even if there is a good chance that things might be shuffled around by the time we get to see code. The code and strength of contributions and maintenance is the ultimate evidence of what can be trusted. Poor quality drivers, if they are distributed via a PECL-only distribution, will acquire their own bad reputation and remain little used like other dormant PECL extensions. Or if the drivers are part of the core PHP distribution, a poor driver should get pulled if it is not of sufficient quality as determined by the PHP community. I believe that all the data access providers potentially involved have some level of skill with PHP extension writing, and they certainly have some skill in writing software. I hope that the data access providers are not the only people contributing to, or gate-checking, the drivers. Chris -- Christopher Jones, Oracle Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Tel: +1 650 506 8630 Blog: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/ Free PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
On 14.02.2008, at 22:07, Christopher Jones wrote: Pierre Joye wrote: You (as group) We are individuals, all members of the mail lists. Ok, could the Microsoft and IBM people on this list please speak up then? Could also one of the Oracle internals guys speak up on this list? That is what Pierre was asking for. regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
Hi Chris, On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Christopher Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The code and strength of contributions and maintenance is the ultimate evidence of what can be trusted. Poor quality drivers, if they are distributed via a PECL-only distribution, will acquire their own bad reputation and remain little used like other dormant PECL extensions. Or if the drivers are part of the core PHP distribution, a poor driver should get pulled if it is not of sufficient quality as determined by the PHP community. As we all agree that poor drivers are not welcome (and great drivers are...), the problem here is not about improving PHP database support (call it PDOv2 or DBDOv3) but to introduce CLA'ed areas in PHP, php core or PECL. It would be nice to dissociate the two and to begin a real dialog between all parties (see my list of questions). About the list having been already gaven, sorry but I can't remember any list or any post about this topic not coming from existing contributors. As I said, many times (not enough) Zend is not PHP. Zend is a (big) contributor but Zend is not PHP. Neither are any of us. Conferences and management meetings are great place to create personal contacts and improve one thing or another, they are not the place to decide such things for the whole community. Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: On 14.02.2008, at 22:07, Christopher Jones wrote: Pierre Joye wrote: You (as group) We are individuals, all members of the mail lists. Ok, could the Microsoft and IBM people on this list please speak up then? Could also one of the Oracle internals guys speak up on this list? That is what Pierre was asking for. What do you want the Oracle internals guys to speak about? They may not be known to you personally, but I've acknowledged some of the coders in various bugs fixes, one of the driver architects has featured in my blog, and some of the key people (including management) have attended the Zend Conferences here in California for the last couple of years. Chris -- Christopher Jones, Oracle Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Tel: +1 650 506 8630 Blog: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/ Free PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
On 14.02.2008, at 22:19, Christopher Jones wrote: Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: On 14.02.2008, at 22:07, Christopher Jones wrote: Pierre Joye wrote: You (as group) We are individuals, all members of the mail lists. Ok, could the Microsoft and IBM people on this list please speak up then? Could also one of the Oracle internals guys speak up on this list? That is what Pierre was asking for. What do you want the Oracle internals guys to speak about? They may Mainly I want them to send patches and explain them. A simple hi beforehand would be nice as well :) regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
On 14.02.2008, at 23:06, Christopher Jones wrote: I think most multi-person plans that impact an existing OSS project have had some genesis in private discussions before being broadcast. For PDO V2, this discussion was just really slow and intermittent. Yeah, I am basically fine with this. I send private emails to people around OSS projects all the time. Its absolutely ok and actually something that is vital to keep things manageable. However the point here is. There is a proposal on the table to change the php.net project to be able to bring in developers we do not know, for code they have not yet written, for specs they have not yet contributed. This is flipping our development process upside down while adding legal hurdles. As such the only course of action I currently is to start working. If you guys do not feel like you can work within the current legal bounds of php.net, then I suggest you start working outside of them. Once we see actual value being contributed, the willingness to compromise and change will be much higher. regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: However the point here is. There is a proposal on the table to change the php.net project to be able to bring in developers we do not know, for code they have not yet written, for specs they have not yet contributed. This is flipping our development process upside down while adding legal hurdles. Since the process hasn't started yet, of course some of the participants aren't known. I don't think PDO V2 is going to be any different from other PHP projects: it starts at the beginning and progress is monitored. If it's not going well, people speak up and decisions are made about how to correct it. As such the only course of action I currently is to start working. If you guys do not feel like you can work within the current legal bounds of php.net, then I suggest you start working outside of them. Once we see actual value being contributed, the willingness to compromise and change will be much higher. I want to see the effort spent will have value to the community. Chris -- Christopher Jones, Oracle Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Tel: +1 650 506 8630 Blog: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/ Free PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] RE: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
-Original Message- From: Lukas Kahwe Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:15 PM To: Christopher Jones Cc: Pierre Joye; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; PHP Internals Subject: Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2 -snip- As such the only course of action I currently is to start working. If you guys do not feel like you can work within the current legal bounds of php.net, then I suggest you start working outside of them. Once we see actual value being contributed, the willingness to compromise and change will be much higher. It's a bit of a chickenegg problem. The idea was to find a way for this to happen which would work long term for the project. This includes both the contribution process and then the distribution process. Theoretically working on this separately is an option the same way you have Propel for DB abstraction, Midnight Coders for Flex, NuSOAP for SOAP, etc... However we see this as an important core component for PHP and a lot of these processes can't just be changed/reversed once they are set in motion. For example, if this is developed separately then I assume there'd be no problem in having a legal entity (you mentioned some of the other standards bodies who are also entities). The issue will pop up when there are successes and we all believe it's beneficial to roll it into PHP. So instead we tried to come up with a proposal which would enable the long term feasibility and create a feasible path ahead of time. As an example with the legal entity issue we managed to get buy in for using PHP Group (not trivial, or should I even say, unprecedented). Anyway it's still an option but not the preferred one. I'd be interested to hear more about the ideas people had on how we can possibly decouple some of the packaging decisions and where the actual work happens. There'd obviously still need to be certain requirements including compatible licenses, integration into bug tracker (possibly), and configuration management guidelines, but maybe others have ideas for ways to accomplish the goals in a way which could still work for most people and allow the vendors to have some of their best people to fully participate. I say most because 100% of people are never happy including in all the million other discussions we have had on other topics over the years. Anyway, let's continue this discussion but with the intent to make a best shot at some ideas for how to achieve some of the goals I think the majority of us would like to see a PDO which includes a first-class PDO with the necessary functionality and consistency, high-quality and consistent drivers across all data access APIs, and well documented functionality. Andi -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
Hi Chris, On Feb 14, 2008 3:30 AM, Christopher Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pierre Joye wrote: Hi Chris, On Feb 14, 2008 2:48 AM, Christopher Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pierre Joye wrote: The targets were these/this companies(y) pushing CLA in php.net when it is not necessary to contribute. It has been proven already since months on a nearly daily basis. For example: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/discuss/msgReader$268 My understanding is that because of its collaborative nature, contributing to PDO V2 has new and very different implications. You mean its collaborative and restrictive nature? No - its collaborative nature. Arguments using past contributions to show the ad-hoc development model is feasible are (unfortunately) not tenable Again, please see my other posts. Since my last post, nothing has been brought to the list to clarify the situation. Important questions like who is asking a CLA That has already been stated. This is not an us and them situation since each party has different requirements. who will contribute and what will be brought on board? That has also been stated: expertise and person-power. I think you are taking for a brain dead or some stupid PR out there. Please answer the questions, don't give me buzz words to make a point. The fine points will depend on the community, a term that includes data access providers (I'm using that name since not all are actual vendors), and the model the community chooses to accept. Why did they not take contact with us? We did. It just took a very long time. Think of it as a normal is this idea possible chat that took place in very, very, very slow motion. There is no discussion, there is no chat. You (as group) simply refuse to answer the most obvious questions. Tell us the names of these entities, companies or persons, who are going to contribute and what are actually their requirements. What will they bring (saying expertise is not something I can buy)? I don't understand what is so hard to understand that it is a minimum to get before we can even discuss the CLA introduction. Let alone the fact that they don't consider us as good enough as discussions partner. Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
Pierre Joye wrote: Hi Chris, On Feb 14, 2008 2:48 AM, Christopher Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pierre Joye wrote: The targets were these/this companies(y) pushing CLA in php.net when it is not necessary to contribute. It has been proven already since months on a nearly daily basis. For example: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/discuss/msgReader$268 My understanding is that because of its collaborative nature, contributing to PDO V2 has new and very different implications. You mean its collaborative and restrictive nature? No - its collaborative nature. Arguments using past contributions to show the ad-hoc development model is feasible are (unfortunately) not tenable Again, please see my other posts. Since my last post, nothing has been brought to the list to clarify the situation. Important questions like who is asking a CLA That has already been stated. This is not an us and them situation since each party has different requirements. who will contribute and what will be brought on board? That has also been stated: expertise and person-power. The fine points will depend on the community, a term that includes data access providers (I'm using that name since not all are actual vendors), and the model the community chooses to accept. Why did they not take contact with us? We did. It just took a very long time. Think of it as a normal is this idea possible chat that took place in very, very, very slow motion. Chris -- Christopher Jones, Oracle Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Tel: +1 650 506 8630 Blog: http://blogs.oracle.com/opal/ Free PHP Book: http://tinyurl.com/f8jad -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
Tell us the names of these entities, companies or persons, who are going to contribute and what are actually their requirements. What will they bring (saying expertise is not something I can buy)? I don't understand what is so hard to understand that it is a minimum to get before we can even discuss the CLA introduction. Let alone the fact that they don't consider us as good enough as discussions partner. Pierre does have a point here. We don't know who we're dealing with, what they can/could offer, or what they want or need in order to offer it.. and nobody's really tried to communicate with php.net apart from those already in the php.net inner circle. I believe there's more room for give and take than Pierre (and others) would be prepared to acknowledge ATM, but if nobody's even prepared to talk with php.net about the issues from their own perspective(s) how can we be expected to work together to find a good solution? In fairness it seems the corporate side all came together to exchange views about how to restrict stuff and haven't reached their own 'group conclusion' yet, but from this end the only message that can sanely be given at present is 'do the best you can without restrictions, because we have good reasons for disliking them'. - Steph Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
On 14.02.2008, at 04:04, Steph Fox wrote: Tell us the names of these entities, companies or persons, who are going to contribute and what are actually their requirements. What will they bring (saying expertise is not something I can buy)? I don't understand what is so hard to understand that it is a minimum to get before we can even discuss the CLA introduction. Let alone the fact that they don't consider us as good enough as discussions partner. Pierre does have a point here. We don't know who we're dealing with, what they can/could offer, or what they want or need in order to offer it.. and nobody's really tried to communicate with php.net apart from those already in the php.net inner circle. Right, we know Wez, we know Andi, we know you. We know more and more of the guys working on tests, we know know at least the emails of some of the guys working on the currently CLA'ed IBM PDO drivers. I have seen some Microsoft guys at some conferences. But I have never talked to one in the context of PDO development. We also do not know who will be coming from inside Oracle to work with us if we go the CLA way. We do not know who will come from inside IBM to work with us etc. OSS is a collaborative process that is not about some manager allocating some ressources here and there. People usually make personal commitments here and maybe this is the bigger culture clash than the CLA. What is being proposed is to turn part of PHP into something that is managed by a manager and the budget he gets allocated by a manager above him. People do not commit access for saying what company they work for. People get commit access once they have send enough patches that are top notch, that php.net decides they can trust them. This is the model of trust we have gone by. So if we are going to change this to start trusting a managerial process, the least we can ask is to have some interaction with the people that will most likely be involved there, even if there is a good chance that things might be shuffled around by the time we get to see code. regards, Lukas -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PDO] Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] An Idea for PDO 2
On Feb 2, 2008 3:14 PM, Wez Furlong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pierre, At no point have I or anyone else said that the future of PDO depends on a CLA. --Wez. No, you did not say it explicitally. However you said that many vendors, experts or leaders will not contribute or will not support PDO if there is no CLA in place. Many persons interpret it as: PDO will not support any proprietary databases if we don't have a CLA, or will stop to support them (because the vendors will not contribute). That's simply not true and I do think that we should clarify this point. That's what I said in my reply to Richard. It is also wrong to say that they can't contribute without CLA while they do contribute already in all possible ways. The more I think and read about this topic the more I think that the only companies or persons looking for CLA in php are you. Neither IBM or Oracle stopped to contribute. Microsoft never actually contributed to PHP directly but that did not prevent them to work on their FCGI implementation for IIS and it works very well. MySql does not need it, Postgresql neither... -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
