Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Hi! The goal is to have community leader participating in our design discussions and decisions. It has happened already for a couple of RFCs (accepted and rejected) and went very well. The FUDs about core devs, legacy developers and the like loosing control about the direction PHP takes has been killed, it did not happen and it is very unlikely that it will happen. Excellent. So we have people participating, contributing to RFCs, getting features accepted, etc. So what's the problem that needs fixing? I am ignoring the comment about FUDs because I have no idea what it is about, so I guess you are answering somebody other's comment that I have not read. the RFC as well. We do not need over killed process as an attempt to make php more closed to our communities. I'm sorry I didn't understand the last sentence. Could you please explain what you meant by that? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
hi Stas, On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote: Hi! The goal is to have community leader participating in our design discussions and decisions. It has happened already for a couple of RFCs (accepted and rejected) and went very well. The FUDs about core devs, legacy developers and the like loosing control about the direction PHP takes has been killed, it did not happen and it is very unlikely that it will happen. Excellent. So we have people participating, contributing to RFCs, getting features accepted, etc. So what's the problem that needs fixing? Nothing right now, everything works as it should so far. We may do a review in a year, or half a year. But as of now we are on track and everything seems to run well. I am ignoring the comment about FUDs because I have no idea what it is about, so I guess you are answering somebody other's comment that I have not read. It was not for you directly but the voting opponent (the very few we have) who cannot get over it. However you are right, they can be ignored (for their opinion about voting :). Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Pierre Joye wrote: I am ignoring the comment about FUDs because I have no idea what it is about, so I guess you are answering somebody other's comment that I have not read. It was not for you directly but the voting opponent (the very few we have) who cannot get over it. However you are right, they can be ignored (for their opinion about voting :). I guess that covers me :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:34:06 +0200, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:50 AM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote: I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it? And please don't say it says so in RFC - it is not a goal. Let me clarify that and try to do not go backwards while we have finally moved forward. The goal is to have community leader participating in our design discussions and decisions. It has happened already for a couple of RFCs (accepted and rejected) and went very well. The FUDs about core devs, legacy developers and the like loosing control about the direction PHP takes has been killed, it did not happen and it is very unlikely that it will happen. How do the community leaders come in? They are usually very well known and already participate to php in one way or another (bugs report, testing, etc.) and are part of a known OSS project (we have drupal, zf, symfony already for example). Having a couple of devs to second their addition is also requested. This has been said many times already in the past and it is said in the RFC as well. We do not need over killed process as an attempt to make php more closed to our communities. I think the issue is not who, in general terms, can vote, but how a determination that someone is covered by those terms is made. What is a known OSS project? For instance, which of these would qualify: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks#PHP ? Of course, it's impossible to set a clear line on what is a known project. Which leads to arbitrariness. Which leads to the second question -- who approves those voting rights? It's been said in this thread that any wiki admin can approve an account without saying anything. Is this case? Who was approved, by whom, and who seconded the addition of these accounts? Personally, I don't know. These are, in my opinion, legitimate concerns that should not be dismissed (and has been said in the past and allusions to obviousness or lack of problems so far are not appropriate responses). -- Gustavo Lopes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 10:23 +0200, Gustavo Lopes wrote: I think the issue is not who, in general terms, can vote, but how a determination that someone is covered by those terms is made. What is a known OSS project? For instance, which of these would qualify: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks#PHP ? If the vote is bound to the other project: does this mean the other project has to decide about a delegate? Could the organisation revoke that delegation or replace him? Would we therefore only work with projects which are setup properly? (This would mean that a project organized like PHP won't get a vote) Right now accounts (and therefore voting rights) are handed out based on individual contributions. And I think that's a good model to follow for the votes. The way I understood the rule was to be able to give regular participants in discussions, (assuming they actually make useful contributions ;-) ) voting karma even though they don't contribute code. And I wonder why that should have more precise rules than the ones we use to hand out accounts. Basically every candidate I imagine could get a proper account easily, if they want. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
And I wonder why that should have more precise rules than the ones we use to hand out accounts. Basically every candidate I imagine could get a proper account easily, if they want. - we have a dedicated page for requesting vcs account - we also have an agreed upon, loosely defined set of requirements for handing out accounts (first send patches and after a few gets accepted, you should apply for your own account) - it is a public information who can approve accounts (it is well hidden, but public: http://git.php.net/?p=web/master.git;a=blob;f=manage/users.php;h=75c5aa6bf9812b653de35c43667ef03387050437;hb=HEAD#l478 ^^) - when an account is approved or rejected, a mail is sent to the list, where we can see who approved/denied/deleted the account if we can have the same for the non-vcs voting approval, that would be fine with me. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking about? I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't? I just ask for clarification on how the community representatives (which is defined in the accepted voting RFC) can get their karma. You are talking about changing the requirements for somebody to be able to participate in the voting, thus changing/extending the original RFC. It's the same topic, and the question of who *should* or should not be allowed to vote was already raised previously on this thread. That's what I was responding to. So, deep breath =) I think Stas was a little bit offtopic/red herring with the discussion on why do we need non-vcs people to be allowed to vote. But to use that as an excuse to hijack the thread to resurrect the why can't everybody vote discussion isn't really nice, and I even asked it especially to not to do, as that was the reason which halted my previous attempt to address this issue. Could we all please focus on the original topic? Thanks! -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Hi! http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51948.html Pierre said that it was a bug(better to say lack of restriction), that everybody with wiki account was able to vote, so I changed the voting plugin to only allow the specific groups(vcs + voting) to be able to vote. This is the authenticated vote. It has also option of having non-authenticated vote. My point is that we are talking about some formal processes but I don't see what would be the desired purpose of such processes. For release process, it's releasing a stable code in time. For RFC, it is informing people about proposed feature and getting it discussed and hopefully accepted. Here, I'm not sure what is the goal. To be able to get voting karma if you meet the requirements. without the need to bribe Hannes, Philip or any other wiki admin. I don't see how getting you voting carma, whatever it might be, can be a goal of PHP project. I'm talking about the goal of the whole thing. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.comwrote: Hi! http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51948.html Pierre said that it was a bug(better to say lack of restriction), that everybody with wiki account was able to vote, so I changed the voting plugin to only allow the specific groups(vcs + voting) to be able to vote. This is the authenticated vote. It has also option of having non-authenticated vote. ok, I didn't knew/remembered that. To be able to get voting karma if you meet the requirements. without the need to bribe Hannes, Philip or any other wiki admin. I don't see how getting you voting carma, whatever it might be, can be a goal of PHP project. I'm talking about the goal of the whole thing. sorry, I can't really follow you with that. do you have a problem allowing the non-vcs users (defined by the voting rfc) to vote, or do you have a problem providing a clear way for them to get their voting karma? -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Hi! sorry, I can't really follow you with that. do you have a problem allowing the non-vcs users (defined by the voting rfc) to vote, or do you have a problem providing a clear way for them to get their voting karma? I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it? And please don't say it says so in RFC - it is not a goal. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On 04/17/2012 03:50 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote: Hi! sorry, I can't really follow you with that. do you have a problem allowing the non-vcs users (defined by the voting rfc) to vote, or do you have a problem providing a clear way for them to get their voting karma? I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it? And please don't say it says so in RFC - it is not a goal. Stas, I'm with Ferenc on this. We just need one or two sentences somewhere in the wiki saying how non-contributors can get vote karma. The sentences should give the physical process and what kind of people we will give karma to. Chris -- christopher.jo...@oracle.com http://twitter.com/#!/ghrd -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Apr 17, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Christopher Jones wrote: On 04/17/2012 03:50 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote: Hi! sorry, I can't really follow you with that. do you have a problem allowing the non-vcs users (defined by the voting rfc) to vote, or do you have a problem providing a clear way for them to get their voting karma? I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it? And please don't say it says so in RFC - it is not a goal. Stas, I'm with Ferenc on this. We just need one or two sentences somewhere in the wiki saying how non-contributors can get vote karma. The sentences should give the physical process and what kind of people we will give karma to. The problem is that the voting RFC does not define who can vote. It contains two parts: 1. Those with SVN [sic] access (but how does karma come into play?) 2. Those without (how do we provide such rights? to whom?) If these are to be answered (they should) then I don't think an RFC can be edited like that (people already voted on it), so suspect we'd need a new RFC to replace it. Fun! I suspect most people voted Yes for that RFC thinking it'd mean less noise on this list while not caring about the details. That's only a guess. But trouble is, defining the Who is the most difficult part and a big reason why general consensus is preferred. Regards, Philip -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
hi Stas, On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:50 AM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote: I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it? And please don't say it says so in RFC - it is not a goal. Let me clarify that and try to do not go backwards while we have finally moved forward. The goal is to have community leader participating in our design discussions and decisions. It has happened already for a couple of RFCs (accepted and rejected) and went very well. The FUDs about core devs, legacy developers and the like loosing control about the direction PHP takes has been killed, it did not happen and it is very unlikely that it will happen. How do the community leaders come in? They are usually very well known and already participate to php in one way or another (bugs report, testing, etc.) and are part of a known OSS project (we have drupal, zf, symfony already for example). Having a couple of devs to second their addition is also requested. This has been said many times already in the past and it is said in the RFC as well. We do not need over killed process as an attempt to make php more closed to our communities. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
hi, On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:29 AM, Philip Olson phi...@roshambo.org wrote: 1. Those with SVN [sic] access (but how does karma come into play?) It does, or we begin to have 2nd, 3rd and totally irrelevant classes of developers or doc writers. 2. Those without (how do we provide such rights? to whom?) See my other reply, easy, simple, harmless. I suspect most people voted Yes for that RFC thinking it'd mean less noise on this list while not caring about the details. That's only a guess. But trouble is, defining the Who is the most difficult part and a big reason why general consensus is preferred. I prefer not to comment on that part. It is like saying that people are not able to take a qualified decision, for whatever reasons. I have been myself tempted to think or say the same about some of the php.net members, and have been proven wrong many times. So let ignore this comment. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:37 AM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: hi, On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:29 AM, Philip Olson phi...@roshambo.org wrote: 1. Those with SVN [sic] access (but how does karma come into play?) It does, or we begin to have 2nd, 3rd and totally irrelevant classes of developers or doc writers. A not was missing. It should have been: It does not, or we begin to have 2nd, 3rd and totally irrelevant classes of developers or doc writers. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 4:14 AM, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I sent an email last year about this issue, but it got sidetracked (partly it was my fault): http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg54267.html So this time, I would like focusing only on the following: 1. What are the requirements for getting voting rights in the wiki without having a vcs/master account? - The voting RFC states: - Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with php.net SVN accounts - Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, etc.) - regular participant of internals discussions 2. What are the necessary steps from a volunteer to request voting karma? 3. How do we handle the applicants? Who will judge the applications? 4. How can we see the list of the people having voting karma? Currently only the wiki admins can see who are the people with the voting group membership. The wiki is already prepared to support voting without vcs account: there is a voting group, anybody having membership in that group are able to vote ( http://git.php.net/?p=web/wiki.git;a=commit;h=e3b97f03548fab661b5bc2dd66420db1024b1f39 ). My personal opinion would be that we have an application form like we have for the vcs account request, which will send an email to the mailing list, we can discuss here whether we support/approve the applicant or not, and somebody with proper karma can approve/decline the application, which would also trigger an email to the mailing list. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu I'm completely in favor of a formal process since it would mean there can be less biased and favor applied to the selection and this can eliminate the potential for people being included to vote for or against something for the purpose of overtaking the vote. I think PHP is already a very inclusive environment. Given that php.net now has edit.php.net and has streamlined the process of submitting bug reports both for documentation and language bugs I think the inclusion into the voting process as a formal outline and drafted step-by-step process will further help put PHP in a position of higher power among its neighboring communities. I propose three primary suggestions for helping formulate such a process: 1) The person requesting voting privileges in the RFC voting process should have either (a) contributed to the PHP community in a constructive and contemporary manner such as submitting helpful bug reports for docs or language bugs (did not contribute noise or repeat bugs or lack of reproducible test cases in the recent past), (b) participates in submitting patches to the PHP source repository, (c) participates in actively in php.net or wiki.php.net without a known history of disruptions among the community. 2) The person requesting voting privileges should only be allowed to make the request once every so often (such as on a monthly or quarterly, or even annual basis, for example). This will help avoid constant requests that just get turned down and avoid a load on applicants. Also, the applicant should be reviewed by their peers as well as the SVN account holders to avoid prejudice. If this is not possible it should at least be set in some fashion what guidelines/prerequisites would appeal to the potential applicant so that people can have a set expectation of what to look for before approaching such privileges. 3) Anyone who is not included in the voting process should not be turned down or discouraged from trying again (after an allotted waiting period) so as to keep the voting process lean and fair. However, I think it may also be fair to request that those re-sending a request to gain voting privileges should be required to produce some supporting evidence for their active and positive roles in their community, such as previous patches, bug report ids, mailing list archives discussions demonstrating some constructive feedback, logs, etc... I'm sure more can be made of this list in time. I just thought to start the discussion off with some constructive suggestions. :) -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Hi! So this time, I would like focusing only on the following: I think before going into these, it is important to answer this question: what is the problem we're trying to solve? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.comwrote: Hi! So this time, I would like focusing only on the following: I think before going into these, it is important to answer this question: what is the problem we're trying to solve? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php I reject the premise of that question because it implies that nothing in PHP should ever be changed unless it's fixing something that's broken. By that standard, it would be virtually impossible to get any new features added. With that in mind, here's the short answer: The problem is that there is a feature people are requesting that currently does not exist. The longer answer: This is not a bugfix, nor does it purport to be. This is a requested new feature proposed for the next *major* PHP release (i.e. 6.0). This feature will add convenience and allow developers o flexibly assert more control over their code structure. --Kris
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Kris Craig kris.cr...@gmail.com wrote: I reject the premise of that question because it implies that nothing in PHP should ever be changed unless it's fixing something that's broken. By that standard, it would be virtually impossible to get any new features added. With that in mind, here's the short answer: The problem is that there is a feature people are requesting that currently does not exist. The longer answer: This is not a bugfix, nor does it purport to be. This is a requested new feature proposed for the next *major* PHP release (i.e. 6.0). This feature will add convenience and allow developers o flexibly assert more control over their code structure. I think you mixed up two threads here :) This one is about voting ;) Nikita -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Nikita Popov nikita@googlemail.comwrote: On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Kris Craig kris.cr...@gmail.com wrote: I reject the premise of that question because it implies that nothing in PHP should ever be changed unless it's fixing something that's broken. By that standard, it would be virtually impossible to get any new features added. With that in mind, here's the short answer: The problem is that there is a feature people are requesting that currently does not exist. The longer answer: This is not a bugfix, nor does it purport to be. This is a requested new feature proposed for the next *major* PHP release (i.e. 6.0). This feature will add convenience and allow developers o flexibly assert more control over their code structure. I think you mixed up two threads here :) This one is about voting ;) Nikita Oh, crap! You're right. Sorry, NM on that last post, everyone. I hate Mondays :/ --Kris
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.comwrote: Hi! So this time, I would like focusing only on the following: I think before going into these, it is important to answer this question: what is the problem we're trying to solve? the voting RFC explicitly states that it is possible for (some) non-vcs users to vote, but there isn't any formal process on how can someone apply for voting karma, and what is the decision making process on this. we already had at least one formal submission ( http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg54229.html) which went unanswered and I was also questioned on irc/twitter multiple times about how can somebody request voting karma. I would like to be able point people to the right direction about this kind of questions, but currently there is no official way of doing this. I know that some of the wiki admins are already handed out a few people voting karma, but there is no formal process, and it isn't transparent in any way. I would like to see that fixed. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Hi! the voting RFC explicitly states that it is possible for (some) non-vcs users to vote, but there isn't any formal process on how can someone apply for voting karma, and what is the decision making process on this. And what is the problem in not having the formal process? which went unanswered and I was also questioned on irc/twitter multiple times about how can somebody request voting karma. I'd say if you have to request it and you have to ask about it on twitter, you probably do not know enough about PHP development process to have a deciding vote on PHP features. For non-deciding votes, we have community voting where pretty much anyone can vote. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.comwrote: Hi! the voting RFC explicitly states that it is possible for (some) non-vcs users to vote, but there isn't any formal process on how can someone apply for voting karma, and what is the decision making process on this. And what is the problem in not having the formal process? uhm. do I really have to explain it? for you? the same reason why we have the rfc process, the release process, the voting process. I'm not talking about 100% complete, unchangeable rules, but some kind of process to follow. mentioning the option for non-vcs users to vote in the voting RFC without providing them a way to apply for karma is the same as we wouldn't mention it at all. I could also accept if we don't allow them, but then we should be clear about it. which went unanswered and I was also questioned on irc/twitter multiple times about how can somebody request voting karma. I'd say if you have to request it and you have to ask about it on twitter, you probably do not know enough about PHP development process to have a deciding vote on PHP features. no, it only means that our internal processes aren't clear or easily accessible. people outside the circle can't do much, than asking people inside to let them in. For non-deciding votes, we have community voting where pretty much anyone can vote. you mean the +1/-1 on the mailing list threads? that's nice, but I'm talking about the voting laid out in the voting process rfc https://wiki.php.net/rfc/voting (what you also supported). as I mentioned before, I can live with it if we remove the ability for non-vcs users to vote, but in that case we should update the rfc (and the karma check in the wiki) accordingly. but if we decide to keep it, we should make it possible for people to be able to request for voting karma, and a way to handle those requests. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Hi! no, it only means that our internal processes aren't clear or easily accessible. people outside the circle can't do much, than asking people inside to let them in. If somebody is an outsider to PHP development, why do you think giving him a deciding vote on it would be a good thing? One can discuss things, propose changes, etc. without any special access. you mean the +1/-1 on the mailing list threads? No, I mean community voting in the wiki. Voting plugin has option to allow anybody to vote. We did such polls in the past. We can do it any day. but if we decide to keep it, we should make it possible for people to be able to request for voting karma, and a way to handle those requests. Why sending a message to the list is not enough? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:58 AM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.comwrote: Hi! no, it only means that our internal processes aren't clear or easily accessible. people outside the circle can't do much, than asking people inside to let them in. If somebody is an outsider to PHP development, why do you think giving him a deciding vote on it would be a good thing? One can discuss things, propose changes, etc. without any special access. thats something which the current voting RFC allows. it seems that we are already over on that decision, as the accepted RFC had that clause. you mean the +1/-1 on the mailing list threads? No, I mean community voting in the wiki. Voting plugin has option to allow anybody to vote. We did such polls in the past. We can do it any day. I'm not sure about it. AFAIK when I implemented my patch to restrict the voting to the vcs users + the voting wiki group, we lost that ability. (see http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51932.html for the history of that change) but if we decide to keep it, we should make it possible for people to be able to request for voting karma, and a way to handle those requests. Why sending a message to the list is not enough? dunno, but it seems it isn't, as nobody replied or gave voting karma to William. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Hi! I'm not sure about it. AFAIK when I implemented my patch to restrict the voting to the vcs users + the voting wiki group, we lost that ability. (see http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51932.html for the history of that change) I don't see any indication there that community vote is not possible, but if it was changed we can make community vote be available again. My point is that we are talking about some formal processes but I don't see what would be the desired purpose of such processes. For release process, it's releasing a stable code in time. For RFC, it is informing people about proposed feature and getting it discussed and hopefully accepted. Here, I'm not sure what is the goal. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 2:28 AM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.comwrote: Hi! I'm not sure about it. AFAIK when I implemented my patch to restrict the voting to the vcs users + the voting wiki group, we lost that ability. (see http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51932.htmlfor the history of that change) I don't see any indication there that community vote is not possible, but if it was changed we can make community vote be available again. http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51948.html Pierre said that it was a bug(better to say lack of restriction), that everybody with wiki account was able to vote, so I changed the voting plugin to only allow the specific groups(vcs + voting) to be able to vote. nobody asked that we would still need to keep the ability to create open votes where anybody can vote, so it wasn't implemented. My point is that we are talking about some formal processes but I don't see what would be the desired purpose of such processes. For release process, it's releasing a stable code in time. For RFC, it is informing people about proposed feature and getting it discussed and hopefully accepted. Here, I'm not sure what is the goal. To be able to get voting karma if you meet the requirements. without the need to bribe Hannes, Philip or any other wiki admin. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.comwrote: Hi! no, it only means that our internal processes aren't clear or easily accessible. people outside the circle can't do much, than asking people inside to let them in. If somebody is an outsider to PHP development, why do you think giving him a deciding vote on it would be a good thing? One can discuss things, propose changes, etc. without any special access. Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that premise out there to see if it holds up. =) you mean the +1/-1 on the mailing list threads? No, I mean community voting in the wiki. Voting plugin has option to allow anybody to vote. We did such polls in the past. We can do it any day. but if we decide to keep it, we should make it possible for people to be able to request for voting karma, and a way to handle those requests. Why sending a message to the list is not enough? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that premise out there to see if it holds up. =) could you please open a separate thread for that? btw. regular participant of internals discussions is one of the reason on which group someone can get voting karma. so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join the decision making process. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote: Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that premise out there to see if it holds up. =) could you please open a separate thread for that? btw. regular participant of internals discussions is one of the reason on which group someone can get voting karma. so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join the decision making process. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking about? I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't? --Kris
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Kris Craig kris.cr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote: Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that premise out there to see if it holds up. =) could you please open a separate thread for that? btw. regular participant of internals discussions is one of the reason on which group someone can get voting karma. so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join the decision making process. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking about? I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't? I just ask for clarification on how the community representatives (which is defined in the accepted voting RFC) can get their karma. You are talking about changing the requirements for somebody to be able to participate in the voting, thus changing/extending the original RFC. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Kris Craig kris.cr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote: Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that premise out there to see if it holds up. =) could you please open a separate thread for that? btw. regular participant of internals discussions is one of the reason on which group someone can get voting karma. so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join the decision making process. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking about? I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't? I just ask for clarification on how the community representatives (which is defined in the accepted voting RFC) can get their karma. You are talking about changing the requirements for somebody to be able to participate in the voting, thus changing/extending the original RFC. It's the same topic, and the question of who *should* or should not be allowed to vote was already raised previously on this thread. That's what I was responding to. So, deep breath =) --Kris -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
Kris Craig wrote: An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development. As a PHP developer (that is, a developer who writes in PHP), I'd agree, *to an extent*. There are certainly things that I'd like to be able to vote on (such as additions to the language/syntax and things such as .phpp). However, I've got no idea how easy such things are to implement, so I don't feel qualified to even ask to be able to vote. However, these things are going to influence me as a developer, so I'd like to be able to vote. Take, as an example, the .phpp debates. (Just as an example.) If I didn't like it, I'd like to be able to vote against it to avoid having to handle it later. However, if I *was* for it, I wouldn't feel qualified to comment, as I have no idea how hard these things are to implement. (Just my $0.02. Apologies if this is confusing, I'm a mixture of tired and distracted.) -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Ryan McCue li...@rotorised.com wrote: Kris Craig wrote: An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development. As a PHP developer (that is, a developer who writes in PHP), I'd agree, *to an extent*. There are certainly things that I'd like to be able to vote on (such as additions to the language/syntax and things such as .phpp). However, I've got no idea how easy such things are to implement, so I don't feel qualified to even ask to be able to vote. However, these things are going to influence me as a developer, so I'd like to be able to vote. Take, as an example, the .phpp debates. (Just as an example.) If I didn't like it, I'd like to be able to vote against it to avoid having to handle it later. However, if I *was* for it, I wouldn't feel qualified to comment, as I have no idea how hard these things are to implement. (Just my $0.02. Apologies if this is confusing, I'm a mixture of tired and distracted.) -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Hmm yeah that makes sense. What if we split the questions into multiple parts? For example, the first question would be something along the lines of, Conceptually, do you think this is a good idea? That could be open to PHP developers as well. Then the second question could be, If you answered 'Yes', as a core contributor, do you believe this proposal is technically feasible? That question would be open only to the people who can vote now. Mind you, I'm just throwing this out there off the top of my head. It could be a really stupid idea, but I thought it might provoke some interesting discussion at the very least. With that in mind Thoughts? =) --Kris
Re: [PHP-DEV] voting without vcs accounts
On Apr 16, 2012, at 6:21 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Kris Craig kris.cr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote: Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that premise out there to see if it holds up. =) could you please open a separate thread for that? btw. regular participant of internals discussions is one of the reason on which group someone can get voting karma. so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join the decision making process. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking about? I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't? I just ask for clarification on how the community representatives (which is defined in the accepted voting RFC) can get their karma. You are talking about changing the requirements for somebody to be able to participate in the voting, thus changing/extending the original RFC. The voting RFC is unclear but aside from that, there are two non-vcs accounts with voting karma today: User: damz: Damien Tournoud - d...@damz.org User: hywan: Ivan Enderlin - ivan.ender...@hoa-project.net Not saying they should or should not, but just saying. And I'm not sure how/when they received the voting karma but it happened. Regards, Philip -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
