Re: [WSG] background overlapping
aaa yes that helps a lot, thanks for thatOn 11/3/06, Peter Asquith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 3/11/2006, at 4:17 PM, Germ wrote:
Im designing a website for my university design exhibition and it looks fine in IE (6 i think it is) but in firefox the bunch of links overlap the white content about 5 pixels and it just looks a bit tacky. as far as i can see the code looks ok.
Because you've added a 5px margin at the top of the links div you'll need to subtract the 5px from the height of the div. The links CSS becomes:
#links { float: left; width: 350px;
height: 207px; margin-top: 5px; background: url(
http://www.curtinmovingon.com/images/Background.jpg);
}RegardsPeter
--Peter Asquith[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wasabicube.com
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[WSG] Legal or Ilegal
Hya, I have a domain 'jungaling.com. Its a web site (eventually about Asia's flora and fauna. Someone else has the domain 'Wild Asia'. I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its green, the logo has a beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 'Digital Eye'. I want to change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal? Thanks Kate *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal
On 11/3/06, kate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hya,I have a domain 'jungaling.com. Its a web site (eventually about Asia'sflora and fauna. Someone else has the domain 'Wild Asia'.I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its green, the logo has a beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 'Digital Eye'. I want tochange the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal?ThanksKateHi Kate,You need to look at the licence for the theme - it could be a Creative Commons Licence ( http://creativecommons.org/), or GNU Public Licence, shareware or freeware.I found the template I think you are referring too: http://www.joomla24.com/Joomla_1.0.x_Downloads/Templates_for_Joomla_1.0.x/Digitaleye_Green.htmlIt appears to be free and could be editted - but remember someone else could also use this template. You really need to develop your own brand, which could be based on the Digitaleye_Green theme, but would identify your site uniquely. Hope this helps,-- Regards,SteveBathurst Computer SolutionsURL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.aue-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mobile: 0407 224 251 _... (0)... / / \.. / / . ).. V_/_Linux Powered!Registered Linux User #355382 ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal
kate wrote: I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its green, the logo has a beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 'Digital Eye'. I want to change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal? Questions about legal issues, like copyright, are off-topic for this list. Check the copyright notice on the design and/or ask the author for permission. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal
kate wrote: I want to change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal? Not without permission to do so. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal
Ok thanks Lachlan Kate - Original Message - From: Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal kate wrote: I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its green, the logo has a beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 'Digital Eye'. I want to change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal? Questions about legal issues, like copyright, are off-topic for this list. Check the copyright notice on the design and/or ask the author for permission. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal
Hya Steve, Being new to WSG and first post I made an error asking that question. I got it from a Mambo source which is open source. I can buy into Template club to get the PSD but asking around the graphic was too complicated to edit the text which DE said would be ok. Anyway I believe that DE will edit the text for me if I understand his message correct on his forum. I think I best choose new text for the logo. I could never even get close to creating something like that Steve. If we are allowed a link here it is: http://jungaling.com/wildtreasures/index.php My apologies to Russ for the question Kate - Original Message - From: Steve Olive To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal On 11/3/06, kate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hya,I have a domain 'jungaling.com. Its a web site (eventually about Asia'sflora and fauna. Someone else has the domain 'Wild Asia'.I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its green, the logo has a beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 'Digital Eye'. I want tochange the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal?ThanksKateHi Kate,You need to look at the licence for the theme - it could be a Creative Commons Licence ( http://creativecommons.org/), or GNU Public Licence, shareware or freeware.I found the template I think you are referring too:http://www.joomla24.com/Joomla_1.0.x_Downloads/Templates_for_Joomla_1.0.x/Digitaleye_Green.htmlIt appears to be free and could be editted - but remember someone else could also use this template. You really need to develop your own "brand", which could be based on the Digitaleye_Green theme, but would identify your site uniquely. Hope this helps,-- Regards,SteveBathurst Computer SolutionsURL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.aue-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mobile: 0407 224 251 _... (0)... / / \.. / / . ).. V_/_Linux Powered!Registered Linux User #355382***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal
Hya Brian, They know about the change of text and maybe, just maybe they hinted they would do the change for me this morning when I went to the forum.The question now is to what? The site is about Asia wildlife etc. Thanks Brian. Kate - Original Message - From: Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal kate wrote: I want to change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal? Not without permission to do so. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)
Hi All, http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/ I have another version here, with the columns background shown, to help you see how out of alignment it is in IE: http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/columns.html The page displays as intended in Opera and Firefox 2, but in IE is a *mess*. I don't quite know where to start, I wonder whether anybody has any solutions? Specific problems: 1. Why is the header (Rahul Gonsalves...) so much lower in IE? Fix? 2. The h2s are all out of alignment. Does this have to do with the faulty box-model? 3. Why is the image so far out to the left? Fix? 4. How does one fix the paragraph alignment? Thanks in advance, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
Andreas, you elucidate what I mean pretty well. Christian - I know it's a shame that the only way I could express myself somehow makes standardistas look bad through implication. I don't want to give that idea at all. As for naming and shaming, I object to the notion strongly. The kind of bully I'm referring to doesn't include any particularly accredited or influential tyrants, it's just for the most part faceless extremists who use the banner of good intentions to spout domineering vitriol. To go and 'sort these people out' would be lowering to their level, and besides these people tend to be able to create their own flame wars very easily by themselves! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
on 03/11/2006 00:59 Matthew Hodgson said the following: snip In the end, we learned the following lessons about vision impaired users and screen readers: a) Only a completely blind person used the screen reader. snip Although you were talking about visually-impaired users and screen readers, I just thought it was worth pointing out that those suffering from severe dyslexia often use screen readers for support. So it maybe unwise to assume that a screen reader user can't see. Mel *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
on 03/11/2006 07:50 kate said the following: What about users with cognitive disibilities? Its a very wide catagorie which includes, simple dyslexia to extreme mental retardation. Apparently these people regularly use the web as a primary imformation source so must be considered. Would they understand the wording 'Go to Menu' etc? Never having the need to use a screen reader its a question I wanted to ask. A dyslexic using a sreenreader for support almost certainly won't have a problem with the wording once they hear it. At the more extreme end of the cognitive issues group, it's highly likely that very basic concepts such as using links will escape them and they may have difficulty with all but the simplest of language. In these situations, users often need 'hand over hand' support (ie someone sitting with them - explaining and guiding them). Using conceptual icons can help both groups to some extent but there does come a a point when there is very little a designer can do to alleviate the problems and it's really down to training, support and experience at the user's end. Mel *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)
For your home page, this in base.css:
body { text-align: center; margin: 0 auto; width: 770px;}
seems to be conflicting with what you're trying to do in index.css.
On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 19:59:31 +1000, Rahul Gonsalves
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi All,
http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/
I have another version here, with the columns background shown, to help
you see how out of alignment it is in IE:
http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/columns.html
The page displays as intended in Opera and Firefox 2, but in IE is a
*mess*. I don't quite know where to start, I wonder whether anybody has
any solutions?
Specific problems:
1. Why is the header (Rahul Gonsalves...) so much lower in IE? Fix?
2. The h2s are all out of alignment. Does this have to do with the
faulty box-model?
3. Why is the image so far out to the left? Fix?
4. How does one fix the paragraph alignment?
Thanks in advance,
- Rahul.
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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Bruce wrote: I have been following this with great interest. What I have been considering (I know its been covered before) is putting a link at the top of the page, go to text version Go to menu I would think that screen reader users would find that a good addition to be able to read an article in text only, and a shortcut to scan articles which also have brief title tags in addition to descriptive titles. In my design content comes first already... Hi Bruce, et al. This is a study, albeit with a small sample size, done on source order and accessibility. I think it was done by the list owner (Russ/Maxdesign) so perhaps he could chip in if there's been any updates to it since I've seen it. http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/ I wonder whether any of the conclusions that were drawn in the study, are still valid, or whether there has been further research to either supplement or contradict it? Specifically, one observation, The majority of screen reader users EXPECT navigation to be presented before the content. [1], and the subsequent statement Our research showed no clear overall PREFERENCE of source order [2], seem to lead me to believe that there is no real reason to attempt to have layouts with the source order first. Rather than attempting to put content first (which seems to confuse inexperienced screen reader users [3]), I would be attempting to put structural labels, as suggested in [4]. I'd be interested to hearing from people with actual experience, and or research, since all my conclusions are arrived at second-hand. Regards, - Rahul. [1] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section36 [2] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section37 [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section38 [4] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section41 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Which is semantically worse, and why? 1. Just manually putting the extra space in the markup. 2. Manually putting an extra inline element around the full stop and styling said element to create a presentational space. To me, they seem just as bad as each other - in the first instance because there is no meaning or purpose behind a genuine double space, and the desire is purely presentational; but in the second there is also semantically unjustifiable extra markup (more of it by volume - but at least it doesn't impinge upon real content) and requires even more stupid hard work in going about manually or dynamically editing the content to insert these tags... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)
John Faulds wrote:
For your home page, this in base.css:
body { text-align: center; margin: 0 auto; width: 770px;}
seems to be conflicting with what you're trying to do in index.css.
Whoops!
Thanks for catching that - I meant to make the pages dependent on
completely separate style sheets. I've updated it to reflect this.
http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/
Thanks,
- Rahul.
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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
@Matthew Hodgson: That's brilliantly useful information, Matthew. It is interesting you mention screen magnifying, because it is my company's policy to use ems as measurements as far as possible, based on the conjecture that partially-sighted people would probably want to increase their default font-size, and having the whole site (within reason) scale with that would make the whole design far more continuous. I recently discovered my Mac's zoom function (I'm forever startled by serendipity while slipping on F keys) which was nice. On a related note, I was horrified to see the effects of what I thought was IE7's text-size scrolling (Ctrl + mouse wheel up/down) - IE is still really bad at re-sizing images (FF is beautiful) and using this function, rather than simply zoom in on the rendered image, it attempts to re-render the whole thing based on botched calculations and creates some hideous results. This function, however, is not text-size scrolling (as it is with every other browser). IE7 still retains the 5 size scrolling but this is accessible only through the menu. I think this change is rather bad because we all expect those two actions to produce the same process, and also it's just not very good and creates a horrible experience for anyone who'd wish to use it. Is default text size adjustment as common as I'd presumed in the partially-sighted community, or is it for the majority, as you suggest, magnification that is used instead? @Steve Green: Steve, what you're doing is exactly what I wanted to hear! Sadly as much as I approve and would want to take part, I can't justify this time off work - my boss has no problem with sending me to design conferences up and down the country, but as far as building on accessibility, company policy is just to accept general standards. As long as you can stamp the site with 'valid code', 'works without script', and 'no tables'... There's no commercial incentive to put any serious work or insight into accessibility (at least as far as our practice dictates). @Frances: The schism between web designers and developers is a terrible thing wherever it appears... And you're right - only pointed work on the part of designers to understand developers and influence them is going to heal the rifts. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Bruce wrote: I would think that screen reader users would find that a good addition to be able to read an article in text only, and a shortcut to scan articles which also have brief title tags in addition to descriptive titles. In my design content comes first already... Not really at Bruce anymore.. This article seems to be good food for thought (and it references the earlier study that I did ;-) ). http://www.alistapart.com/articles/workingwithothers Regards, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
BarneyThere is effectively no semantic difference. To stop the spread of grey goo on the net, the only semantics we shoud be worried about are those which are picked up by search engines, and a span class=sentence means equally as little as nbsp;nbsp; to these. It is also of little consequence to user agents if implemented correctly. When visually examined by another human, most likley for site maintenance purposes, either technique will be able to convey the meaning. If you do have to use double space, I would suggest use the no breaks as it cuts down on page length and embeded tags - Robhttp://ele.vation.co.ukOn 03/11/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Which is semantically worse, and why?1. Just manually putting the extra space in the markup. 2. Manually putting an extra inline element around the full stop andstyling said element to create a presentational space.To me, they seem just as bad as each other - in the first instancebecause there is no meaning or purpose behind a genuine double space, and the desire is purely presentational; but in the second there is alsosemantically unjustifiable extra markup (more of it by volume - but atleast it doesn't impinge upon real content) and requires even more stupid hard work in going about manually or dynamically editing thecontent to insert these tags...***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)
Rahul Gonsalves wrote:
http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/columns.html
The page displays as intended in Opera and Firefox 2, but in IE is a
*mess*. I don't quite know where to start, I wonder whether anybody
has any solutions?
1. Why is the header (Rahul Gonsalves...) so much lower in IE? Fix?
To fix it, add...
#logo p#access {float: left; width: 100%;}
Note the specificity.
2. The h2s are all out of alignment. Does this have to do with the
faulty box-model?
No, it's the old 'margin-doubling on floats' bug in IE/win.
#content h2 { margin: -.33em 0 0 125px; float: left; width: 125px;
display: inline /* IE-fix */;}
3. Why is the image so far out to the left? Fix?
Working version...
#content img.m { clear: both; margin: 2em 0 0 125px; float: left;}
...and add a clearing below the image...
#content .caption {clear: both;}
4. How does one fix the paragraph alignment?
If I have understood you correctly, then I've already included a fix for
it under problem 2, with a negative margin-top on h2 - making it line up
with the paragraph.
regards
Georg
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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Rahul Gonsalves wrote: This article seems to be good food for thought (and it references the earlier study that I did ;-) ). http://www.alistapart.com/articles/workingwithothers It was after reading this that I found the guts to question Talibani standards tyrants. It's an absolutely fantastic article that everyone should read - some of the best web philosophy that's ever been on ALA. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
on 03/11/2006 10:50 Rahul Gonsalves said the following: snip http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/ I wonder whether any of the conclusions that were drawn in the study, are still valid, or whether there has been further research to either supplement or contradict it? Specifically, one observation, The majority of screen reader users EXPECT navigation to be presented before the content. [1], and the subsequent statement Our research showed no clear overall PREFERENCE of source order [2], seem to lead me to believe that there is no real reason to attempt to have layouts with the source order first. snip I'd be interested to hearing from people with actual experience, and or research, since all my conclusions are arrived at second-hand. I also did a very small study on page order with some experienced pan-disability users/testers from the Shaw Trust (www..shaw-trust.org.uk) about a year ago. The feedback that I received confirmed the findings above. Users expected site navigation to be presented before content. Overall, the testers felt that placing content before navigation didn't offer any real benefits - especially as it was contrary to their expectations and previous experience. So it would seem that, once a 'trend' is well established, going against it (even for the best of reasons) can create its own issues. Users, generally, don't like being suprised or being made to think as they try to move around a site or page. In a separate, earlier, piece of research, I came across screen reader users who preferred to access content before navigation and achieved this by simply jumping to the bottom of the page and working upwards as standard. So it would seem that screen reader users are perfectly capable of developing their own individual strategies to maximise the chances of page content being rendered in the order that they prefer. But, again, this kind of strategy is based upon the expectation that content will be placed after navigation. If you design contrary to that expectation, the end result may be disorientations and/or frustration for this sub-group. In the past 12 months, I've not come across any newer studies that would suggest anything has changed. Hope that helps. Mel *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
on 03/11/2006 11:18 Barney Carroll said the following: snip By the way, could anyone elaborate on what tab-indexing is? And how does the Alt+# system work? These seem to be crucial elements of screen reader browsing but I have a very limited grasp of their convention and application. Tabindexing allow a designer to specify the order in which links or controls receive focus on a page when using the TAB key to move around. Elements on a page that do not have an associated tabindex will have a 'natural' ordering (ie follwong the order they appear in the markup). If you mix the two, the elements with a specified tabindex will come first followed by unindexed elements. Speaking as an intermittent keyboard navigator/VR user, I consider tabindexing to be the spawn of satan - especially when it runs contrary to the 'natural' or expected tab order on a page. For example, if I land on a page which renders some content containing a few links followed by a form, I expect to be able to tab to the links first followed by the forum controls. One common use of tabindexing that I come across in this situation gives preference to the form controls and leaves the links unindexed. So, when I hit the TAB key expecting to jump to the first link, I actually end up on the form and often have to tab through the whole thing to get back to the links which, visually, are actually higher up the page. The end result (especially if there is a lack of visual highlighting on focus) is often complete disorientations and exasperation. On really bad pages, I sometimes have to rely on reading the browser status bar just to try and figure out where I'm tabbing to! If I had one thing (OK- one thing amongst many) to ask of other designers it would be Please don't create tab orders that are unintuitive!. Users (in the West, anyway) expect tab ordering to follow a left-to-right top-to-bottom rule and, as soon as you mess with that, you create confusion. By the 'Alt+# system', I assume you mean accesskeys. It's a way of defining keyboard shortcuts which, in theory, allow users to jump to, for example, the Search item on the menu by selecting ALT+s. Depending on the browser being used, the user may then have to press ENTER to activate the link. The designer can define which keys, in conjunction with ALT (or CTRL on a Mac) relate to which links by means of the accesskey attribute. However, there are problems associated with defining accesskeys on a site as they can over-ride pre-existing keyboard shortcuts in the user's software. http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=43 has a fairly comprehensive list whilst http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=32 also has makes some interesting points. Since the release of Firefox 2.0, there are also problems with using numeric accesskeys on sites. http://juicystudio.com/article/firefox2-accesskeys.php My own experience and research suggests that most of the users that designers *assume* will want to use accesskeys don't bother with them. They vary too much from site to site to be really useful. Providing the tab order is intuitive, users prefer to simply tab around pages or use options within their own software (which they know far better than a random site) to jump to specific points on a page or site rather than research a whole list of new keyboard shortcuts on every site they visit. Gez Lemon and Rich Pedley developed a php AccessKeys class that allows users to define their own access keys . In theory, users could define the same subset of keys on every site that uses this approach: http://juicystudio.com/article/user-defined-accesskeys.php Gez has also since developed an .ASP version: http://juicystudio.com/article/user-defined-access-keys-aspversion.php However, I don't think either version has been around long enough, or is implemented widely enough, to indicate how many keyboard navigators actually use make use of the facility when it's offered. I know I've never bothered. :-) Mel *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Real world font sizing
Just to clear up my confusion. I've been in the habit of setting font-size on body to 100.01% because AIUI it stops IE doing silly small font sizes when you use ems elsewhere and the .01 is for Opera and a weird rounding issue. recently I picked up the habit of setting body to 62.5% from http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/ which I think is wrong, from what I'm hearing seeing recently... is it okay to set body to 100.01% and then use ems on elements to meet the designers whim? maybe I don't mean *okay* per se,[1] but assuming I have to set a font size to meet a clients brief, which would be the most respectful way? 100.01% on body and elements sized using ems (by trial and error) or some other way? bearing in mind that I'm working remotely from the designer client, who is often designing on a Mac what settings would let me choose font sizes that would look like they match the visual I'm working to, without causing problems for users with different preferences? TIA [1] I assume not setting any size is best, but in the real world my income depends on making web sites match a signed off visual -- Join me: http://wiki.workalone.co.uk/ Thank me: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/registry/1VK42TQL7VD2F Engage me: http://www.boldfish.co.uk/portfolio/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing
TonyI would stick with the original approach and then re-size up using ems. The clagnut article recommended first scaling everything down to 62.5% for ease of calculation when scaling back up using ems. The premise was that a 'default' text size of 16pt would be scaled down to 10pt and then you take it from there. I do believe that somebody else (can't find source right now) suggested first scaling down to 76% and then resizing up. Not for ease of calculation, as per clagnut, but as a result of empirical tests which showed that this produced the most consistent result in terms of final font size across all browsers / platforms - Robhttp:/ele.vation.co.ukOn 03/11/06, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just to clear up my confusion.I've been in the habit of setting font-size on body to 100.01% becauseAIUI it stops IE doing silly small font sizes when you use ems elsewhereand the .01 is for Opera and a weird rounding issue.recently I picked up the habit of setting body to 62.5% from http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/which I think is wrong, from what I'm hearing seeing recently...is it okay to set body to 100.01% and then use ems on elements to meetthe designers whim? maybe I don't mean *okay* per se,[1] but assuming I have to set a fontsize to meet a clients brief, which would be the most respectful way?100.01% on body and elements sized using ems (by trial and error) or some other way?bearing in mind that I'm working remotely from the designer client, whois often designing on a Mac what settings would let me choose font sizesthat would look like they match the visual I'm working to, without causing problems for users with different preferences?TIA[1] I assume not setting any size is best, but in the real world myincome depends on making web sites match a signed off visual --Join me: http://wiki.workalone.co.uk/Thank me: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/registry/1VK42TQL7VD2F Engage me: http://www.boldfish.co.uk/portfolio/***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
Rahul Gonsalves wrote:
http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/index.html
1. Why is the header (Rahul Gonsalves...) so much lower in IE? Fix?
To fix it, add...
#logo p#access {float: left; width: 100%;}
Note the specificity.
2. The h2s are all out of alignment. Does this have to do with the
faulty box-model?
No, it's the old 'margin-doubling on floats' bug in IE/win.
#content h2 { margin: -.33em 0 0 125px; float: left; width: 125px;
display: inline /* IE-fix */;}
3. Why is the image so far out to the left? Fix?
Working version...
#content img.m { clear: both; margin: 2em 0 0 125px; float: left;}
...and add a clearing below the image...
#content .caption {clear: both;}
4. How does one fix the paragraph alignment?
If I have understood you correctly, then I've already included a fix for
it under problem 2, with a negative margin-top on h2 - making it line up
with the paragraph.
regards
Georg
Georg,
I am in awe of your CSS. Four lines, and 100% fixed. I truly appreciate
this.
The only small, niggling thing left is that whenever there is a
paragraph preceded by a h2, it seems to be adjusted, only by a pixel or
two, to the right. Any ideas as to how I could fix this? It's a small
thing, but since the design hangs on a grid, a little misalignment looks
pretty nasty.
Regards,
- Rahul.
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Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas
On 11/3/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andreas, you elucidate what I mean pretty well. Christian - I know it's a shame that the only way I could express myself somehow makes standardistas look bad through implication. I don't want to give that idea at all. As for naming and shaming, I object to the notion strongly. The kind of bully I'm referring to doesn't include any particularly accredited or influential tyrants, it's just for the most part faceless extremists who use the banner of good intentions to spout domineering vitriol. To go and 'sort these people out' would be lowering to their level, and besides these people tend to be able to create their own flame wars very easily by themselves! Yeah, I see that now. I guess there's no need to do any sorting, I was just concerned about us turning misunderstandings into serious disagreements. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/ I wonder whether any of the conclusions that were drawn in the study, are still valid, or whether there has been further research to either supplement or contradict it? Specifically, one observation, The majority of screen reader users EXPECT navigation to be presented before the content. [1], and the subsequent statement Our research showed no clear overall PREFERENCE of source order [2], seem to lead me to believe that there is no real reason to attempt to have layouts with the source order first. Rather than attempting to put content first (which seems to confuse inexperienced screen reader users [3]), I would be attempting to put structural labels, as suggested in [4]. I'd be interested to hearing from people with actual experience, and or research, since all my conclusions are arrived at second-hand. Hi Rahul, The full article to support the presentation you have linked to is here: http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm While no further research has been undertaken by Roger, Lisa or I in this specific area, we are still working with blind users regularly. In fact, I have been sitting watching blind users today. What struck us during testing last year, and has been confirmed on many occasions since, is that: 1. Source order is often irrelevant as most screen reader users and refreshable Braille device users [1] have a variety of ways that they can move around pages quickly (skipping to heading levels, links, forms, form elements, as well as tabbing quickly through content and doing direct searches for content on the page). The concept of top and bottom of pages often becomes irrelevant. 2. Well structured content is a VERY important aid for blind users as it allows them to use their preferred method of moving around the page. Poorly structured pages often do not allow this to occur. 3. Assistive markup in forms and tables is also vital. The testing carried out today confirmed this with blind users having a great deal of trouble filling in forms due to poorly labelled input elements (or in some cases no labelling at all). 4. Structural labels are not critical but are quite helpful as they flag sections of the page. They act almost like street signs, allowing people to know where they are within the pages content. One quick test for all of this is simply to turn off all styles and read the content of your (unstyled) page. Does it make sense to you? Is the content running together? Are headings helping to break the content into meaningful chunks? The second quick test is to then tab around the page with the keyboard only and see how hard it all is to use. :) HTH Russ [1] http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/58957885/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing
On 11/3/06, Rob Kirton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do believe that somebody else (can't find source right now) suggested first scaling down to 76% and then resizing up. Not for ease of calculation, as per clagnut, but as a result of empirical tests which showed that this produced the most consistent result in terms of final font size across all browsers / platforms That was from thenoodleincident.com text size tests IIRC. ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Hi, I'm out of the office and will return on Wednesday 8 November. I look forward to responding to your query on Wednesday. Regards Rob Scherer Seek Ltd *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Are we turning the tide?
Derek recently said: Perhaps we are doing a pretty darn good job. Sadly though, we are not in the majority. And therein lies the difficulty. When we talk about we doing a pretty darn good job, we're talking about - what - maybe 5% of web professionals worldwide? More, less? I'm not sure but we're not in the majority as far as I can tell. So how are we doing, does anybody know? I'd be very interested to see even rough figures on the percentage of standards and accessibility-aware designers/developers compared to others. Admittedly I spend my time reading, writing and talking with other standardistas so my perception is almost certainly very skewed, but from what I see we've made a huge amount of progress. While the recent Sitepoint survey [1] showed that over 60% of respondants used CSS primarily for layout this could well be to do with the fact that Sitepoint caters for a standards-savvy audience. So, are there any numbers out there that would show a more realistic appraisal of the reach of web standards? Cheers Chris [1] http://www.sitepoint.com/article/survey-web-dev-stereotypes *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Are we turning the tide?
On 11/3/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So how are we doing, does anybody know? I'd be very interested to seeeven rough figures on the percentage of standards andaccessibility-aware designers/developers compared to others. AdmittedlyI spend my time reading, writing and talking with other standardistas so my perception is almost certainly very skewed, but from what I see we'vemade a huge amount of progress.I recently contacted all the local web freelancers and agencies when setting up a local community site - perhaps 1/3 had sites that used CSS layout, but then that may be skewed because I found them all via Google, so maybe their expertise got them higher up the search results. By comparison I looked at local agencies in another city a year or so ago, and I was the only one using CSS, at least on my own site.Matthew. ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing
Tony Crockford wrote: Just to clear up my confusion. I've been in the habit of setting font-size on body to 100.01% because AIUI it stops IE doing silly small font sizes when you use ems elsewhere and the .01 is for Opera and a weird rounding issue. recently I picked up the habit of setting body to 62.5% from http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/ [trimmed] There is, in my mind, nothing intrinsically wrong with either the 62.5 or 100.01% method. As for myself, I prefer 100%/normal on the body declaration, followed by the use of /percent/ on necessary selectors, with line-height set as a raw number. Regards, ~dL -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Are we turning the tide?
On 11/3/06, Matthew Pennell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/3/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So how are we doing, does anybody know? I'd be very interested to see even rough figures on the percentage of standards and accessibility-aware designers/developers compared to others. Admittedly I spend my time reading, writing and talking with other standardistas so my perception is almost certainly very skewed, but from what I see we've made a huge amount of progress. I recently contacted all the local web freelancers and agencies when setting up a local community site - perhaps 1/3 had sites that used CSS layout, but then that may be skewed because I found them all via Google, so maybe their expertise got them higher up the search results. By comparison I looked at local agencies in another city a year or so ago, and I was the only one using CSS, at least on my own site. You could always browse a directory like http://www.xemion.com/ by region and look at the portfolios of various designers/agencies. I think you'll find we are definitely in the minority. Where I am (Ithaca NY), there's very little CSS-based work; they even teach outdated practices: http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/11/02/advanced-html/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
Hello there, I've been putting my CV together but I don't have a mac for testing, a friend of mine who does said that when the page loads up in safari it immediately jumps to where it says 'Web designer and developer'. I'm stumped as to what might be causing it. The page in question is at http://robert.o-rourke.org Anyone run into a similar problem before? I'm planning to make the cut-out thing smaller, I was developing the concept and haven't re-done any graphics yet. Cheers, Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing
On 2006/11/03 12:41 (GMT) Tony Crockford apparently typed:
I've been in the habit of setting font-size on body to 100.01% because
AIUI it stops IE doing silly small font sizes when you use ems elsewhere
and the .01 is for Opera and a weird rounding issue.
Wasn't Opera fixed in that regard about 3 major versions ago?
recently I picked up the habit of setting body to 62.5% from
http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/
which I think is wrong, from what I'm hearing seeing recently...
Some characteristics of that method:
1-a very simple user stylesheet containing only htmlbody {font-size:
medium !important} in order to restore less extreme deviations from his
preference will resize things not only larger than the page author
intended, but also larger than the visitor prefers.
2-different browsers apply the user's minimum font size differently:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_03_04.html
3-IE truncates the 62.5% to 62%:
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/bugs/browsers/css/IE-Win/ie_percent_test.html
is it okay to set body to 100.01% and then use ems on elements to meet
the designers whim?
maybe I don't mean *okay* per se,[1] but assuming I have to set a font
size to meet a clients brief, which would be the most respectful way?
Consider asking the client if he has troubled himself to appropriately
adjust his own browser(s) so that unstyled text is the size he prefers.
Once he understands that this is the right thing to assume everyone has
done, even though some subset of the universe actually goes to that
trouble, . . .
100.01% on body and elements sized using ems (by trial and error) or
some other way?
. . . there's no need to set anything other than 100% on body, which
also means no need to set anything at all on body.
That leaves the size of various elements that the design requires be
contextually sized, like captions, footers and headings, to be sized by
any appropriate relative sizing method, % em included.
bearing in mind that I'm working remotely from the designer client, who
is often designing on a Mac what settings would let me choose font sizes
that would look like they match the visual I'm working to, without
causing problems for users with different preferences?
[1] I assume not setting any size is best, but in the real world my
income depends on making web sites match a signed off visual
--
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.
Matthew 5:12 NIV
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/
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Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
Nice page Rob, I like the scrolling mark-up. On 11/3/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello there, I've been putting my CV together but I don't have a mac for testing,a friend of mine who does said that when the page loads up in safari it immediately jumps to where it says 'Web designer and developer'. I'mstumped as to what might be causing it. The page in question is at http://robert.o-rourke.org Anyone run into a similar problem before? I'm planning to make the cut-out thing smaller, I was developing theconcept and haven't re-done any graphics yet. Cheers,Rob O ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** -- James ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
RE: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
I'm running Safari 2.0 and it does jump. However, it does not jump immediately. When you hover over a link the page reloads and this is when it jumps (not always to the same place). The same happens if you press the Tab key after the page loads. It does this even if JavaScript is turned off. Sorry, I have no idea why it's doing it. Steve Green Director Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility www.testpartners.co.uk www.accessibility.co.uk -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke Sent: 03 November 2006 16:08 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle Hello there, I've been putting my CV together but I don't have a mac for testing, a friend of mine who does said that when the page loads up in safari it immediately jumps to where it says 'Web designer and developer'. I'm stumped as to what might be causing it. The page in question is at http://robert.o-rourke.org Anyone run into a similar problem before? I'm planning to make the cut-out thing smaller, I was developing the concept and haven't re-done any graphics yet. Cheers, Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)
Rahul Gonsalves wrote:
http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/index.html
The only small, niggling thing left is that whenever there is a
paragraph preceded by a h2, it seems to be adjusted, only by a pixel
or two, to the right. Any ideas as to how I could fix this? It's a
small thing, but since the design hangs on a grid, a little
misalignment looks pretty nasty.
I agree... :-) ...and I should have fixed it the first time around
without mentioning it. Now I have to add a longish explanation.
It's 3px offset in IE6 (and older), and that's why it's called the '3px
jog' bug.
The most stable fix is to remove the floating h2 at the left of the
paragraph, so IE/win doesn't add interaction between those two elements
into its buggy calculations.
No interaction = no '3px jog' bug.
Removing a float can be done by pulling in one or both of its backside
margins, so the float no longer takes up space in front of another element.
Method described here...
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_demo_float_03.html
...but since other elements should still interact with the headline in
your page, a smaller and more precise negative backside margin value is
necessary. The idea is to partly remove the float from the flow.
A working fix is to put a suitable negative margin-bottom on the
floating headline to...
#content h2 { margin: -.33em 0 -1.1em 125px;}
...and the headline is partly gone and does no longer take up space in
front of the paragraph. It's still perfectly aligned and visible though.
There's no need to hack in this IE-fix, since it's perfectly valid and
all browsers will handle negative backside margins the same way - giving
you a cross-browser reliable line-up.
You may however want to add a bit more 'margin-top' on elements
following directly below such a partly removed float, as they will end
up 1.1em higher than before.
Hope the above makes sense.
(I wonder if this qualifies as a rotten fix using standards, and if
so if it makes me a rotten standardista (or something) :-P )
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing
On 3 Nov 2006, at 16:32:27, Felix Miata wrote: 3-IE truncates the 62.5% to 62%: http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/bugs/browsers/css/IE-Win/ ie_percent_test.html Just a quick note: this remains the case in IE 7. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing
Felix Miata wrote:
Consider asking the client if he has troubled himself to appropriately
adjust his own browser(s) so that unstyled text is the size he prefers.
Once he understands that this is the right thing to assume everyone has
done, even though some subset of the universe actually goes to that
trouble, . . .
I have many clients and most of them have no idea about resetting the
default size, and as for *their* clients - the web site commissioning
businessman - even fewer understand there's a choice of browsers, let
alone settings you can fiddle with...
I wish there were a way to collect data on how users have set font-size
in their browsers, we'd have some better facts then...
. . . there's no need to set anything other than 100% on body, which
also means no need to set anything at all on body.
unfortunately leaving body font-size unset and setting a sub 1em size on
text, e.g 0.8em will allow IE6 to produce miniscule fonts at view text
smallest so I guess I'll just stick to
body {font-size: 100%}
to prevent IE6 going daft.
That leaves the size of various elements that the design requires be
contextually sized, like captions, footers and headings, to be sized by
any appropriate relative sizing method, % em included.
cool. I've got used to ems, so will persist.
thanks all.
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[WSG] Legal or Ilegal
Return Receipt Your [WSG] Legal or Ilegal document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:11/03/2006 08:32:14 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
Steve Green wrote: I'm running Safari 2.0 and it does jump. However, it does not jump immediately. When you hover over a link the page reloads and this is when it jumps (not always to the same place). The same happens if you press the Tab key after the page loads. It does this even if JavaScript is turned off. Sorry, I have no idea why it's doing it. Thanks for confirming that Steve, I've taken all the javascript out because its kinda pointless in this instance. Can you check if the same happens on this page please?: http://robert.o-rourke.org/undex.php I've removed the anchor link which might have been the reason for it... guess it's a process of elimination from here on. Cheers, Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello
On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:23:49 +0800, Nick Cowie wrote: I would expect my layout to expand beyond the browser window width when zoomed (either page zoom in IE or Opera or text zoom in any browser), my layout width is em based and uses a little javascript when the page is loading to change the text size so it automatically fill the full browser window. Hi Nick, My apologies for incorrectly citing your design. As you note, any kind of width specification besides percent (or no specification at all) eventually expands beyond the viewport on zoom. The jello design does, too. But my objection there is to the unnecessary horizontal scroll bar when the width is contained. Neither Opera nor Firefox do this. Nick also added: If you increase your text size, zoom the page or have a default text size greater than 16px the page will expand beyond your browser window. What led me to conclude that your design somehow works better in Firefox than in IE 7 is due to my laptop being set to 120 DPI resolution. In Firefox, your page starts off with margins, because 1em translates to 16px in that browser. IE 7 however starts off with no margin because 1em translates to 20px at my screen resolution. Your technique still works as designed though. Nice! P.S. I am now seeing other issues with IE 7's zoom feature. Look at the heading on this page, for example: http://webwiz.robinshosting.com/jello.html (enable scripting) Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but I never tried it). If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page continuously reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail Bartender and Web Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till the 'beachball of death' appears and I have to force quit the browser. We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this. Steve -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke Sent: 03 November 2006 17:37 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle Steve Green wrote: I'm running Safari 2.0 and it does jump. However, it does not jump immediately. When you hover over a link the page reloads and this is when it jumps (not always to the same place). The same happens if you press the Tab key after the page loads. It does this even if JavaScript is turned off. Sorry, I have no idea why it's doing it. Thanks for confirming that Steve, I've taken all the javascript out because its kinda pointless in this instance. Can you check if the same happens on this page please?: http://robert.o-rourke.org/undex.php I've removed the anchor link which might have been the reason for it... guess it's a process of elimination from here on. Cheers, Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
Steve Green wrote: Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but I never tried it). If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page continuously reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail Bartender and Web Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till the 'beachball of death' appears and I have to force quit the browser. We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this. Steve :$ poop... I don't think on online cv that breaks safari is going to get me very far... I've stripped out the CSS now... any joy? It seems to work ok in swift except it loads up with the high contrast large print css for some reason. Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
On 3 Nov 2006, at 19:13:00, Rob O'Rourke wrote: Steve Green wrote: Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but I never tried it). If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page continuously reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail Bartender and Web Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till the 'beachball of death' appears and I have to force quit the browser. We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this. Steve :$ poop... I don't think on online cv that breaks safari is going to get me very far... I've stripped out the CSS now... any joy? It seems to work ok in swift except it loads up with the high contrast large print css for some reason. Rob O It's now jumping on load to the bit where you have: object style=display:none; data=#robert-orourke class=include type=text/html/object just before h3 class=summary titleWeb Designer and Developer/h3 so it looks like something to do with the object referencing part of the page via a URL hash. As to why you're embedding the page in itself as an object, I really can't guess... HTH, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
It seems better but when I hover over a link it still reloads, jumps down to the Cocktail Bartender subheading then up to the Web Designer subheading. At least it doesn't bounce up and down continuously and crash the browser. Steve -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke Sent: 03 November 2006 19:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle Steve Green wrote: Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but I never tried it). If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page continuously reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail Bartender and Web Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till the 'beachball of death' appears and I have to force quit the browser. We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this. Steve :$ poop... I don't think on online cv that breaks safari is going to get me very far... I've stripped out the CSS now... any joy? It seems to work ok in swift except it loads up with the high contrast large print css for some reason. Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
It's now jumping on load to the bit where you have: object style=display:none; data=#robert-orourke class=include type=text/html/object just before h3 class=summary titleWeb Designer and Developer/h3 so it looks like something to do with the object referencing part of the page via a URL hash. As to why you're embedding the page in itself as an object, I really can't guess... HTH, Nick. --Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ =D Nice one Nick, I think you've cracked it Those objects are in there to reference my personal hCard from my experience ones its one of the microformats design patterns, I was just trying to be all fancy-pants clever so I've used hyperlinks instead. Cheers for the help guys, 'preciate it Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Off-Topic: Javascript for Dummies
Greetings and sorry for the off topic post.
On this page: http://essay.sitesbyjoe.com/create_account.asp I'm trying
to set focus on the first field in the form. It should be simple, but I
can't get the darn thing to work!
My javascript:
function create_account_focus() {
var my_field = document.getElementById(first_name);
//alert(my_field);
my_field.focus;
}
My HTML:
div
label for=first_nameFirst Name/label
input id=first_name name=first_name type=text
value=%=request(first_name)% class=stretch /
/div
Any clue as to why this wouldn't be working? Makes no darn sense!
Thanks!
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
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***begin:vcard
fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor
n:Taylor;Joseph
org:Sites by Joe, LLC
adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel;work:609-335-3076
tel;cell:609-335-3076
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url:http://sitesbyjoe.com
version:2.1
end:vcard
Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
Steve Green wrote: It seems better but when I hover over a link it still reloads, jumps down to the Cocktail Bartender subheading then up to the Web Designer subheading. At least it doesn't bounce up and down continuously and crash the browser. Steve Is that even with the objects removed? If so I'll take out those links altogether and get on the uF-discuss list about it. Cheers, Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Off-Topic: Javascript for Dummies
Joseph R. B. Taylor: my_field.focus; my_field.focus(); /AndersN *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle
Steve Green wrote: No, it's ok now. My last post was before you removed the objects. Steve WooHoo! I was all ready to drown my sorrows in lager but this deserves a martini =] Nice one Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Are we turning the tide?
Dwain Alford wrote: Where I am (Ithaca NY), there's very little CSS-based work; they even teach outdated practices: http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/11/02/advanced-html/ where i am (winfield, alabama) they still use frames and tables and do it wysiwyg. they know nothing of seo. a new client can't even use the domain name they are paying for because the host who registered the name registered it in his name and won't transfer the name to them. sorry, i stray. when adobe, macromedia and microsoft gave us go live, dreamweaver and front page, they did to web design what george eastman did to photography; everybody became a web designer and a photographer. i haven't been designing with css and xhtml very long (2 years this past summer) and there is much i still have to learn, but when i knew there was a better way and began to learn about standards i jumped on board with both feet. i try to promote standards whenever i can. i try to educate our small client base to the importance of standards and seo. i might even start a group for web designers in this booming metropolis of around 4,000 and see if we can get together and make the web a better place. ok, i'm getting delusional, so i'll stop. in closing, if one designer a day can be brought into the ranks of standards compliant design then there is hope. dwain The only answer is to keep up the good work, I think web standards must be gaining a lot of ground because when I started out learning I was almost immediately directed to the CSS zengarden by a friend. After trolling through tons of everyone else's code and learning by doing I saw the value in it and found the enthusiasm of other standardistas infectious. I'm in the fortunate position of never having learnt any old-hat methods and having potential bad habits drummed out of me by peer review on mailing lists such as this. Hopefully this will be true for more and more new designers and developers in the coming years. The good news is that advocates of web standards will more than likely be at the top of the search engine results these days. That's usually the first place anyone looks for good tutorials/info. Also, just in this past year I've noticed many websites e.g. The University Of Bristol's website have been brought up to speed (only the public facing section so far but it's a start). Sites that don't catch up will eventually fall behind and drop off the radar (fingers crossed). Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
As a new member to this list, I can't believe throwing span class=sentence / around EVERY SENTENCE IN YOUR CONTENT is being seen as even a remotely valid solution. Is the use of Javascript frowned upon on this list? Why not use that? -- Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
On 11/4/06, Nathan de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a new member to this list, I can't believe throwing span class=sentence / around EVERY SENTENCE IN YOUR CONTENT is being seen as even a remotely valid solution. Is the use of Javascript frowned upon on this list? Why not use that? How is that even remotely _invalid_? The worst I could say against this is that it was redundant, but it is serving a purpose that cannot be circumvented, so it is hardly this. Javascript isn't frowned upon for behavioural purposes -- but this isn't about behaviour at all. It's about content (perhaps -- and if you think that then your solution would be . nbsp; replacing . ) or presentation (perhaps -- and if you think that then your solution would be more tightly defined sentence markup with CSS to append trailing blank space). -- Joshua Street http://joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
On 11/3/06, Nathan de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/11/2006, at 1:22 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: Because the solution (yes, solution for a silly problem) has to work when the document is PRINTED. That means that it has to be either a plain HTML or print CSS technique. When I open up my favorite website in either IE, Opera, Firefox or Safari, and modify the content / layout using Javascript...it doesn't print the original DOM. It prints the modified DOM. Are you saying this doesn't work for you? Oh, in that case it's fine, but it's not really a big difference. The point still stands that the Javascript and non-Javascript solutions produce the same end-result. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
On 04/11/2006, at 2:13 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: Oh, in that case it's fine, but it's not really a big difference. Not a big difference? Unnecessary spans wrapped around every sentence in your content seems a _little_ bit different to plain content with post-processing done by Javascript. But spans don't show up in your browser anyway is a poor justification of a solution which is akin old school use whatever works techniques (tables for layout etc.) The point still stands that the Javascript and non-Javascript solutions produce the same end-result. Was that ever the point? I never stated that using spans + CSS would not work - I just said it was a shitty solution. They will both work (and look exactly the same), but using extraneous markup to achieve double-spacing is insane. The point was which solution is better in the long run? I argue that using Javascript is. Every time you change your content and need to wrap spans around your sentences, you might start thinking the same thing. -- Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
