Re: [WSG] Re: 3 questions: flash, and Ad Sense

[Nick Cowie]

put the logo in a iframe and that should fix it.


I thought iframe was deprecated in xhtml strict.

I think it is too


However, I think it is the only way to get flash to play fair, so looks like
it will have to be html 4.01 strict or xhtml transitional


--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com


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[WSG] Re: 3 questions: flash, and Ad Sense

[Elle Meredith]

put the logo in a iframe and that should fix it.


I thought iframe was deprecated in xhtml strict.


You could put the ads in an iframe... not ideal. Google don't do good
markup or valid anything really, you would probably be better off with
xhtml friendly text link ads:
http://www.text-link-ads.com


I will check them next.

You could add a class to the anchor that contains the image to  
differentiate it



Declaring a separate class for anchors holding images, wherein the  
border and background are eliminated, seemed to do the trick	


I guess a class is the way to go.

Thanks guys,

Elle
http://waznelle.com



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Re: [WSG] History of CSS Question

[Andrew Ingram]

Christian Montoya wrote:

By whacky you mean lovely, correct? Can I just go on the record for
saying that I think the format is wonderful?


For something being used to format (X)HTML, I would have expected XML or
something...


Formatting it as XML sounds like a good idea for machines and would be
nice as an alternative but I think the current format is much more
convenient for writing CSS by hand.

I also like the format, XML isn't some magical file format that fixes 
everything.  In fact i'd say it's inappropriate for something like css 
which has small file-size as one of it's key benefits.


I would have preferred CSS to support nesting of rules (example below) 
but what we've got works pretty well.


#header {
blah: blah;
img { blah: blah; };
+ ul { blah: blah; };
> p { blah: blah; };
}

- Andrew Ingram


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[WSG] Re: History of CSS Question

[Sigurd Magnusson]

Title: SilverStripe Newsletter






 
  
   
  
  Mind you, CSS is conveniently brief to write...
  
  Sigurd Magnusson | Operations Director
 
 
 
  
   SilverStripe
   http://www.silverstripe.com
  
  
  
   

 
  
   
Phone:+64 4 978 7332
Fax:+64 4 978 7349
Mobile:+64 21 421 208
Skype:   
   
  
 
 
  Level 3, Symes De Silva House
  97-99 Courtenay Place
  Wellington, New Zealand
 
 

  
 


Matthew Cruickshank wrote:
> Matthew Smith wrote:
>>
>> A question that's been on my mind for quite some time - why is CSS in 
>> such a whacky format?
>>
>
> CSS1 was designed in pre-XML times ('96), which is why we have CSS's 
> half-assed XPath (CSS Selectors) and namespaces. It's also why CSS is 
> it's own weird-ass syntax.
>
> My personal opinion is that when CSS2 came out it should have been 
> XMLised because CSS1 wasn't a significant legacy (even then, browsers 
> could have been instructed to parse both). CSS1  didn't even have 
> layout, aside from floats, and people hadn't invested nearly as much 
> in it.
>
>
> .Matthew Cruickshank
> http://docvert.org << Freely convert MS Word to HTML or any XML
>
>
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Re: [WSG] History of CSS Question

[Christian Montoya]

On 1/11/07, Matthew Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi All

A question that's been on my mind for quite some time - why is CSS in
such a whacky format?


By whacky you mean lovely, correct? Can I just go on the record for
saying that I think the format is wonderful?


For something being used to format (X)HTML, I would have expected XML or
something...


Formatting it as XML sounds like a good idea for machines and would be
nice as an alternative but I think the current format is much more
convenient for writing CSS by hand.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com


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Re: [WSG] History of CSS Question

[Matthew Cruickshank]

Matthew Smith wrote:


A question that's been on my mind for quite some time - why is CSS in 
such a whacky format?




CSS1 was designed in pre-XML times ('96), which is why we have CSS's 
half-assed XPath (CSS Selectors) and namespaces. It's also why CSS is 
it's own weird-ass syntax.


My personal opinion is that when CSS2 came out it should have been 
XMLised because CSS1 wasn't a significant legacy (even then, browsers 
could have been instructed to parse both). CSS1  didn't even have 
layout, aside from floats, and people hadn't invested nearly as much in it.



.Matthew Cruickshank
http://docvert.org << Freely convert MS Word to HTML or any XML


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Re: [WSG] Images enlarging themselves

[John Faulds]

It's because you've given those images a width of 100px in your CSS. If  
they're narrower than that, they're going to come out distorted.


On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:05:33 +1000, Lyn Patterson  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/flora3.html




--
Tyssen Design
Web & print design services
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Images enlarging themselves

[Nick Cowie]

Lyn

You give the images a width:


ul#img li img {
display:block;
position:absolute;
bottom:0;
width: 100px;
}



So the browser automatically scales the image, ie if image was 80px high and
50px wide. The image becomes 160px high and 100px wide.

remove: width: 100px from ul#img li img and add it to ul#img li should fix
the problem

--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com


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[WSG] History of CSS Question

[Matthew Smith]

Hi All

A question that's been on my mind for quite some time - why is CSS in 
such a whacky format?


For something being used to format (X)HTML, I would have expected XML or 
something...


Cheers

M








--
Matthew Smith
IT Consultancy & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy


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Re: [WSG] 3 questions: flash, and Ad Sense

[Dan Dorman]

The first question sounds like an issue specific to the browser or the
plugin, and the third I have no information on.

For the second question, I discovered, via admittedly limited testing, that
applying a border to an anchor tag--versus text-decoration--seems to provide
some sort of "mandatory" padding (that's probably not the best term for it),
at least in Firefox on Linux. Declaring a separate class for anchors holding
images, wherein the border and background are eliminated, seemed to do the
trick (but I had to declare background as none, rather than
background-color).

Dan Dorman

On 1/11/07, Elle Meredith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hey,

Just got 3 questions that are actually on 3 separate subjects:

1. I have a flash slide show in a page header and the page's logo is
positioned absolutely with higher z-index on top of the flash object
but only some of the logo is on top of the flash slideshow. Every
time a new image loads up in the flash movie, it hides part of the
logo. If you hover on the logo, it comes back up till the next image
loads.
Would you know why this happens?

2. Situation is:
I declare a general rule that says that all my links will have border-
bottom of some kind or background color when hovering on them.
Then I have an image that is also a link.
Even though I declare: a img {border-bottom: 0; background-color:
none;}, it doesn't have any effect and I still get a border-bottom or
can see background color on hover where I have padding around the image.
Why wouldn't it accept my second rule?

3. I recently added Google AdSense to my validated pages and it
caused errors on my page.
Is there anything I could do to still have pages that validate as
XHTML strict?

Much appreciated any help,

Elle
http://waznelle.com


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Re: [WSG] 3 questions: flash, and Ad Sense

[Rob O'Rourke]

Elle Meredith wrote:

Hey,

Just got 3 questions that are actually on 3 separate subjects:

1. I have a flash slide show in a page header and the page's logo is 
positioned absolutely with higher z-index on top of the flash object 
but only some of the logo is on top of the flash slideshow. Every time 
a new image loads up in the flash movie, it hides part of the logo. If 
you hover on the logo, it comes back up till the next image loads.

Would you know why this happens?


Nick answered that, Flash is an activeX object in windows IE so like 
comboboxes it is rendered above everything else.




2. Situation is:
I declare a general rule that says that all my links will have 
border-bottom of some kind or background color when hovering on them.

Then I have an image that is also a link.
Even though I declare: a img {border-bottom: 0; background-color: 
none;}, it doesn't have any effect and I still get a border-bottom or 
can see background color on hover where I have padding around the image.

Why wouldn't it accept my second rule?



It has accepted it it's just that the rules you specified for the anchor 
tags themselves aren't the same as the rules you've specified for the 
images within the anchor tags. You could add a class to the anchor that 
contains the image to differentiate it like so:


a.img { border-bottom: 0; background-color: none; }

3. I recently added Google AdSense to my validated pages and it caused 
errors on my page.
Is there anything I could do to still have pages that validate as 
XHTML strict?




You could put the ads in an iframe... not ideal. Google don't do good 
markup or valid anything really, you would probably be better off with 
xhtml friendly text link ads:

http://www.text-link-ads.com


Much appreciated any help,

Elle
http://waznelle.com   



All the best,
Rob O



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[WSG] Images enlarging themselves

[Lyn Patterson]

www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/flora3.html

I have an image gallery with thumbnails and  use  js to enable them to 
open a larger version in a box on the same page.


The problem is that some thumbnails - like the one shown - enlarge and 
distort themselves instead of  staying the size they actually are.   
This only seems to happen with thumbnails that are taller than they are 
wide. I have no idea why this is happening - there should be plenty of 
room for them. I make them a max of 80px high


Is there anything in the CSS that is causing this?

Thanks

Lyn




   Caesia micrantha - Pale Grass Lily


ul#img {
   list-style:none;
   font-size: .76em;
   margin:0 0 0 2em;
   padding:0;
   float: left;
   width: 90%;
   }
ul#img li {
   width: 105px;
   height: 160px;
   float: left;
   margin: 0 0.5em 0.5em 0;
   background-color:#dba;
   }
ul#img li div {
   height: 90px;
   position:relative;
   background-color:#dba;
   }
ul#img li img {
   display:block;
   position:absolute;
   bottom:0;
   width: 100px; 
   }  
ul#img li p {

   margin: .25em;
   color: #000;
   }
ul#img li p span {
   font-weight:bold;
   display:block;
   margin-top:1em;
   }  
ul#img:after {

 display:block;
 content: " ";
 clear:left;
 height:0;
}



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Re: [WSG] 3 questions: flash, and Ad Sense

[Nick Cowie]

Elle

Answer to 1.
Depends if you are viewing the page via Windows or OsX/*nix.
I expect you might be on OsX or *nix and flash does not work the same as on
Windows, put the logo in a iframe and that should fix it.

Nick

On 12/01/07, Elle Meredith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hey,

Just got 3 questions that are actually on 3 separate subjects:

1. I have a flash slide show in a page header and the page's logo is
positioned absolutely with higher z-index on top of the flash object
but only some of the logo is on top of the flash slideshow. Every
time a new image loads up in the flash movie, it hides part of the
logo. If you hover on the logo, it comes back up till the next image
loads.
Would you know why this happens?

2. Situation is:
I declare a general rule that says that all my links will have border-
bottom of some kind or background color when hovering on them.
Then I have an image that is also a link.
Even though I declare: a img {border-bottom: 0; background-color:
none;}, it doesn't have any effect and I still get a border-bottom or
can see background color on hover where I have padding around the image.
Why wouldn't it accept my second rule?

3. I recently added Google AdSense to my validated pages and it
caused errors on my page.
Is there anything I could do to still have pages that validate as
XHTML strict?

Much appreciated any help,

Elle
http://waznelle.com


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--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com


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[WSG] 3 questions: flash, and Ad Sense

[Elle Meredith]

Hey,

Just got 3 questions that are actually on 3 separate subjects:

1. I have a flash slide show in a page header and the page's logo is  
positioned absolutely with higher z-index on top of the flash object  
but only some of the logo is on top of the flash slideshow. Every  
time a new image loads up in the flash movie, it hides part of the  
logo. If you hover on the logo, it comes back up till the next image  
loads.

Would you know why this happens?

2. Situation is:
I declare a general rule that says that all my links will have border- 
bottom of some kind or background color when hovering on them.

Then I have an image that is also a link.
Even though I declare: a img {border-bottom: 0; background-color:  
none;}, it doesn't have any effect and I still get a border-bottom or  
can see background color on hover where I have padding around the image.

Why wouldn't it accept my second rule?

3. I recently added Google AdSense to my validated pages and it  
caused errors on my page.
Is there anything I could do to still have pages that validate as  
XHTML strict?


Much appreciated any help,

Elle
http://waznelle.com 


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Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)

[Brothercake]

IMO the right thing to do is to modify nothing when a "handheld"
stylesheet is present, but if that is not available then use the
screen stylesheet and render it down or don't use styles at all.


I agree - and this is precisely what Opera Mobile does. It begins with 
a handheld-media stylesheet and honours that if it's there. If not it 
tries to honour the screen styles, applying increasingly aggresive 
styles of its own as available space decreases and/or the layout 
requires.


All rather impressive really :)  You can see it action using desktop 
Opera - go "View > Fit to Width" and then progressively reduce the size 
of the window (while viewing a page), right down to a tiny square.




J



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Re: [WSG] website checker

[del usr]

Silktest and loadrunner will test a site for accessibility if they didnt I
would have no job.

del usr

On 1/9/07, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 04:50:06PM -, John 'Max' Maxwell wrote:
> Can someone tell me the best way to check my website for
'accessability'??


Pay an expert (or become one yourself). Email me off list if you want
a recommendation, I won't spam the group with it. The RNIB is also
likely to be able to make some suggestions.

> I have done a standard HTML and CSS validation so I can be 100%
> before advertising the fact in my footer etc. But is there a 1 click
> Y/N tester for accessibility that works in the same way as the W3
> site checker for validity??

No, many aspects of accessibility cannot be programatically tested
for. You need some degree of human intervention.

--
David Dorward  http://dorward.me.uk



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RE: [WSG] Site Question

[Travis D. Falls]

Tim I think you misunderstood what I was asking... I was looking for a tip
on how to get the footer to actually extend to the foot of the page, I
pasted the code so people could see how the code was done.  I agree Tables
aren't the way to lay things out but I needed to get this done fast and then
good... ;-)  I will be refactoring it again and again.  I basically don't
understand why specific containers when given 100% height aren't extending
to 100% Thanks for the advice on the email address... I will do a C#
contact form... again... I was doing this fast, then correct.  I had 12 hrs
to do it.  :-)  

Thanks

Travis

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Tim
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 6:34 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Question

Dear Travis,

You are asking a lot for a cut and paste job that it may take a lot of 
study to appreciate why you cannot slap a compliant site together with 
cut and paste and you should employ someone to make a template you can 
work with.

Your page validates, but is not accessible. A couple of suggestions.

It needs some meta META tags in the header. Language, Creation date 
content, keywords, etc.



Using tables for layout requires much more attention to table headers 
and a summary.
Services

You will be spammed to death with your email address in the page, 
create a contact page or hide the email address in some javascript.
onclick="JavaScript:window.location='m'+'ail'+'to:' etc etc

I had a few jobs making memorial webpages for deceased family members, 
offer clients an option of a memorial webpage, but contract the work 
out.

Tim

http://www.hereticpress.com


On 12/01/2007, at 9:54 AM, Travis D. Falls wrote:

>
>  
> I am developing a site for my business.  www.chamberlingranite.com.  I 
> have pasted in the rendered code and the CSS.  What I can’t figure out 
> is:
>  
>   A   I want the footer to appear at the bottom of the page not in
the 
> middle when the content ends.
>   B   I want to get that gradient to push down a bit.
>  
> Any pointers would be greatly appreciated… And if you see something 
> that you think just isn’t done well let me know.  I want to make this 
> the correct way.  Thanks!
>  
> Travis
>  
>  
> *{
>   margin:0px;
>   padding:0px;
>   border-collapse:collapse;
> }
>  
>    html,body{
>    }
>  
>  
> body {
>   font-family:Verdana, Arial, Serif;
>   font-size:100%;
>   width:100%;
>   vertical-align:top;
>   text-align:center;
>   background-image:url("images/BackgroundTileColor.jpg");
> }
>  
> a{
>   text-decoration:none;
> }
>  
> a:hover{
>   text-decoration:underline;
> }
>  
> #Container{
>   width:100%;
>   height:100%;
>   margin-top:30px;
>   vertical-align:top;
>   text-align:left;
>   background-position:35% left;
>   background-image:url("images/BackgroundTile.jpg");
>   background-repeat:repeat-x;
> }
>  
> #TopNav{
>   position:absolute;
>   right:300px;
>   top:5px;
> }
>  
> #TopNav tr td a{
>   color:#ff;
>   font-size:85%;
>   padding-left:10px;
>   padding-right:10px;
> }
>  
> #Utilities{
>   position:absolute;
>   right:23px;
>   top:5px;
> }
>  
> #Utilities tr td a{
>   font-size:80%;
>   color:#99;
> }
>  
> #Utilities tr td a:hover{
>   color:#ff;
> }
>  
>  
> #Header{
>   background-image:url("images/TopBar.jpg");
>   background-repeat:repeat-x;
>   width:100%;
>   height:68px;
> }
>  
> #Logo{
>   background-image:url("images/Logo.jpg");
>   background-repeat:no-repeat;
>   background-position:left center;
>   margin-top:6px;
>   margin-left:20px;
>   width:210px;
>   height:57px;
> }
>  
> #CatchPhrase{
>   position:absolute;
>   right:20px;
>   top:66px;  
> }
>  
> #CatchPhrase span{
>   font-weight:400;
>   font-family:Verdana, Arial;
>   color:#66;
>   font-size:200%;
> }
>  
> #Main{
>   margin:auto;
>   margin-top:15px;
>   width:988px;
>   text-align:left;
> }
>  
> #Countertops{
>   z-index:200;
>   background-image:url("images/Countertop.jpg");
>   background-repeat:no-repeat;
>   width:321px;
>   height:278px;
>   border-left:solid 2px #ff;
>   border-top:solid 2px #ff;
>   border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
> }
>  
> #Countertops:hover{
>   background-image:url("images/CountertopOn.jpg");
> }
>  
> #CountertopsMessage{
>   z-index:100;
>   width:321px;
>   height:278px;
>   display:none;
> }
>  
> #CountertopsMessage:hover{
>   display:block;
> }
>  
> #Landscape
> {
>   z-index:100;
>   width:349px;
>   height:278px;
>   background-image:url("images/Landscape.jpg");
>   background-repeat:no-repeat;
>   border-top:solid 2px #ff;
>   border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
> 

Re: [WSG] Site Question

[Tim]

Dear Travis,

You are asking a lot for a cut and paste job that it may take a lot of 
study to appreciate why you cannot slap a compliant site together with 
cut and paste and you should employ someone to make a template you can 
work with.


Your page validates, but is not accessible. A couple of suggestions.

It needs some meta META tags in the header. Language, Creation date 
content, keywords, etc.




Using tables for layout requires much more attention to table headers 
and a summary.
Services


You will be spammed to death with your email address in the page, 
create a contact page or hide the email address in some javascript.

onclick="JavaScript:window.location='m'+'ail'+'to:' etc etc

I had a few jobs making memorial webpages for deceased family members, 
offer clients an option of a memorial webpage, but contract the work 
out.


Tim

http://www.hereticpress.com


On 12/01/2007, at 9:54 AM, Travis D. Falls wrote:



 
I am developing a site for my business.  www.chamberlingranite.com.  I 
have pasted in the rendered code and the CSS.  What I can’t figure out 
is:

 
	A 	I want the footer to appear at the bottom of the page not in the 
middle when the content ends.

B   I want to get that gradient to push down a bit.
 
Any pointers would be greatly appreciated… And if you see something 
that you think just isn’t done well let me know.  I want to make this 
the correct way.  Thanks!

 
Travis
 
 
*{
  margin:0px;
  padding:0px;
  border-collapse:collapse;
}
 
   html,body{
   }
 
 
body {
  font-family:Verdana, Arial, Serif;
  font-size:100%;
  width:100%;
  vertical-align:top;
  text-align:center;
  background-image:url("images/BackgroundTileColor.jpg");
}
 
a{
  text-decoration:none;
}
 
a:hover{
  text-decoration:underline;
}
 
#Container{
  width:100%;
  height:100%;
  margin-top:30px;
  vertical-align:top;
  text-align:left;
  background-position:35% left;
  background-image:url("images/BackgroundTile.jpg");
  background-repeat:repeat-x;
}
 
#TopNav{
  position:absolute;
  right:300px;
  top:5px;
}
 
#TopNav tr td a{
  color:#ff;
  font-size:85%;
  padding-left:10px;
  padding-right:10px;
}
 
#Utilities{
  position:absolute;
  right:23px;
  top:5px;
}
 
#Utilities tr td a{
  font-size:80%;
  color:#99;
}
 
#Utilities tr td a:hover{
  color:#ff;
}
 
 
#Header{
  background-image:url("images/TopBar.jpg");
  background-repeat:repeat-x;
  width:100%;
  height:68px;
}
 
#Logo{
  background-image:url("images/Logo.jpg");
  background-repeat:no-repeat;
  background-position:left center;
  margin-top:6px;
  margin-left:20px;
  width:210px;
  height:57px;
}
 
#CatchPhrase{
  position:absolute;
  right:20px;
  top:66px;  
}
 
#CatchPhrase span{
  font-weight:400;
  font-family:Verdana, Arial;
  color:#66;
  font-size:200%;
}
 
#Main{
  margin:auto;
  margin-top:15px;
  width:988px;
  text-align:left;
}
 
#Countertops{
  z-index:200;
  background-image:url("images/Countertop.jpg");
  background-repeat:no-repeat;
  width:321px;
  height:278px;
  border-left:solid 2px #ff;
  border-top:solid 2px #ff;
  border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
}
 
#Countertops:hover{
  background-image:url("images/CountertopOn.jpg");
}
 
#CountertopsMessage{
  z-index:100;
  width:321px;
  height:278px;
  display:none;
}
 
#CountertopsMessage:hover{
  display:block;
}
 
#Landscape
{
  z-index:100;
  width:349px;
  height:278px;
  background-image:url("images/Landscape.jpg");
  background-repeat:no-repeat;
  border-top:solid 2px #ff;
  border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
}
 
#Landscape:hover{
  background-image:url("images/LandscapeOn.jpg");
}
 
#LandscapeMessage
{
  z-index:200;
  width:349px;
  height:278px;
  display:none;
}
 
#LandscapeMessage:hover
{
  display:block;
}
 
#Memorials
{
  z-index:100;
  width:318px;
  height:278px;
  background-image:url("images/Memorial.jpg");
  background-repeat:no-repeat;
  border-right:solid 2px #ff;
  border-top:solid 2px #ff;
  border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
}
 
#Memorials:hover{
  background-image:url("images/MemorialOn.jpg");
}
 
#MemorialsMessage
{
 
  z-index:200;
  width:318px;
  height:278px;
  display:none;
}
 
#MemorialsMessage:hover
{
  display:block;
}
 
#Products td
{
  margin:0px;
  padding:0px;
  border-collapse:collapse;
}
 
#ProductTitles
{
  text-align:center;
}
 
#ProductTitles h1{
  color:#ff;
  font-size:150%;
  font-weight:lighter;
}
 
#MainContent
{
  margin:auto;
  margin-top:30px;
  vertical-align:top;
  width:988px;
  text-align:left;
  font-size:90%;
}
 
#MainContent td{
  vertical-align:

Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Abdulrahman Al-Otaiba]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_Order_Mark

on 01/12/2007 01:23 AM Mihael Zadravec said the following:


Yes... something like that... so I set the notepad++ to ENCODE UTF-8 
WHITOUT BOM and it works all right.


Anyone has a clue what that BOM means?

Mihael
 



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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

On 1/11/07, Abdulrahman Al-Otaiba <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


It happened to me one and it was some encoding problems, UTF-8 encoding
on windows introduced some extra characters that was hidden from almost
all editors except from few of them, i believe that Zend IDE got the
extra character, that was only recognized by IE, it was working fine on
all other browsers though, it took me 2 days to figure it out and when i
removed that hidden characters it worked fine on IE, i think you too
have the same problem, it is usually on top before
*check here*


Yes... something like that... so I set the notepad++ to ENCODE UTF-8 WHITOUT
BOM and it works all right.

Anyone has a clue what that BOM means?

Mihael


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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Abdulrahman Al-Otaiba]

It happened to me one and it was some encoding problems, UTF-8 encoding 
on windows introduced some extra characters that was hidden from almost 
all editors except from few of them, i believe that Zend IDE got the 
extra character, that was only recognized by IE, it was working fine on 
all other browsers though, it took me 2 days to figure it out and when i 
removed that hidden characters it worked fine on IE, i think you too 
have the same problem, it is usually on top before

*check here*

On 1/11/07, *Mihael Zadravec* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


when done without including content without php, "all in one :D"
it 's ok...


THAT actualy had something to do with my notepad++, because I  wrote 
the code again in notepad and save it as header.php ... and it works 
properly...


Is there sometnih that I could have setup incorectly in notepad++?



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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

> OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now!
> > > It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like
> > it
> > > renders it properly..
> >
> > Still OK in all browsers when done by hand?
>
>
> when done without including content without php, "all in one :D" it 's
> ok...
>


THAT actualy had something to do with my notepad++, because I  wrote the
code again in notepad and save it as header.php ... and it works
properly...

Is there sometnih that I could have setup incorectly in notepad++?



As I changed Encoding from UTF-8 to ANSI, it makes no margins...  :D why is
that??? funny... or silly me... :D


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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

In order for people to help you, it would be great if you could answer the
following questions:


1. Is the gap present when viewed in browsers other than Firefox when the
code is all in one file?



There is no gap... and no whitespaces

2. Is there a place where the files are hosted so we can see the results for

ourselves? (Working code is always far easier to debug than raw code sent in
emails.)



Nope. :(


3. There is an odd (for me) character in your CSS after the body style rule:

body  { margin:0; padding: 0 0 2em 0; }ž
Is this intentional, or is it an email encoding issue?



That was a typo in the mail... Sorry for that... but if anyone interested :D
it is a leeter Z but it has the hook :D like Ž


If you can't host the files for us to see, could you at least send through

the RENDERED source of each file so we can have something solid to debug.



I know , thanks for advice... I provided the code, it realy isn't much to se
in code generated by browsers... there is no whitespaces..

As I changed encoding in notepad++ the problem was solved.. ( from utf-8 to
utf-8 without BOM -> and now I am reserching what that BOM actualy is. )

cya!
Mihael

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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

There are no white spaces... :D

On 1/11/07, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Mihael Zadravec wrote:
> well... if I echo with php the code, than it's ok, but if I include a
> file (header.php) it adds a top and bottom margins,... however, there
> are no whitespaces :D

Are you checking for whitespace in the final HTML that's sent to the
browser, i.e. doing a "view source"?

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
tel: 00386 51 808136
email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Paul Bennett]

Hi Mihael,
 
In order for people to help you, it would be great if you could answer the 
following questions:
1. Is the gap present when viewed in browsers other than Firefox when the code 
is all in one file?
2. Is there a place where the files are hosted so we can see the results for 
ourselves? (Working code is always far easier to debug than raw code sent in 
emails.)
3. There is an odd (for me) character in your CSS after the body style rule:
 body  { margin:0; padding: 0 0 2em 0; }ž  
Is this intentional, or is it an email encoding issue?

If you can't host the files for us to see, could you at least send through the 
RENDERED source of each file so we can have something solid to debug.

Once you've done these things, list members will be much more able to help :)

Hope that helps,
Paul

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Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)

[Christian Montoya]

On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

@Matthew: And the only 'tampering' Opera Mini does as far as styling is
concerned is ignore background-image rules? Or does it not render
images, full stop?

Tyssen Design wrote:
> The launch of Apple's iPhone could also have a significant impact in
> this area too.

Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to
customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively
accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our ability
to decide on what's best for the user.


IMO the right thing to do is to modify nothing when a "handheld"
stylesheet is present, but if that is not available then use the
screen stylesheet and render it down or don't use styles at all.

It's easy to argue that mobile browser coders should work on CSS
rendering rather than trying to render sites without CSS, but
backwards compatibility is always good for business.

And that's all IMO.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com


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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Mihael Zadravec wrote:
well... if I echo with php the code, than it's ok, but if I include a 
file (header.php) it adds a top and bottom margins,... however, there 
are no whitespaces :D


Are you checking for whitespace in the final HTML that's sent to the 
browser, i.e. doing a "view source"?


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

On 1/11/07, Mihael Zadravec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




On 1/11/07, Matthew Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Quoth Mihael Zadravec at 01/12/07 07:21...
> > OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now!
> > It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like it
> > renders it properly..
>
> Still OK in all browsers when done by hand?


when done without including content without php, "all in one :D" it 's
ok...




THAT actualy had something to do with my notepad++, because I  wrote the
code again in notepad and save it as header.php ... and it works properly...

Is there sometnih that I could have setup incorectly in notepad++?


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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

On 1/11/07, Matthew Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Quoth Mihael Zadravec at 01/12/07 07:21...
> OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now!
> It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like it
> renders it properly..

Still OK in all browsers when done by hand?



when done without including content without php, "all in one :D" it 's ok...


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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

well... if I echo with php the code, than it's ok, but if I include a file (
header.php) it adds a top and bottom margins,... however, there are no
whitespaces :D
this is killing me... that kind of thing makes me ask my self a few
questions that I realy dislike :D

On 1/11/07, Sarah Peeke (XERT) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Perhaps a little off topic, but I'd suggest that you may have introduced
some white space before and after your php code. Any empty lines between
xhtml and php will introduce so-called "margins".

> I don't know any more... Is it me, or it is some kind of stupid
> software's
> sh... problem?
>
> Wen layout coded in xhtml and is "in one piece".. everithing is qool.
> But, as I cut it on pieces, and inculde them with php's include_once
> function, it ads to certain element ( don't get it what is the logical
> procedur that picks them out ) 12px margin top and bottom... :(
>
> Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution?
>
> Btw. I'am useing notepad++ for coding...
>
> thank you!
>
--
XERT Communications
email: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
mobile: 0438 017 416


web development : digital imaging : dvd production


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Računalniške storitve Toasted Web
Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
tel: 00386 51 808136
email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec
---
Toasted Web
http://www.toastedweb.com

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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Sarah Peeke (XERT)]

Perhaps a little off topic, but I'd suggest that you may have introduced
some white space before and after your php code. Any empty lines between
xhtml and php will introduce so-called "margins".

> I don't know any more... Is it me, or it is some kind of stupid 
> software's
> sh... problem?
> 
> Wen layout coded in xhtml and is "in one piece".. everithing is qool.
> But, as I cut it on pieces, and inculde them with php's include_once
> function, it ads to certain element ( don't get it what is the logical
> procedur that picks them out ) 12px margin top and bottom... :(
> 
> Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution?
> 
> Btw. I'am useing notepad++ for coding...
> 
> thank you!
> 
-- 
XERT Communications
email: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
mobile: 0438 017 416


web development : digital imaging : dvd production


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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

well..

INDEX.PHP
-
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd";>
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; lang="si">

   
   Toasted Web - Publikacija o spletnih standardih
   
   




HEADER.PHP
-

Site title
 
   
   Navigacija po glavnih rubrikah:
   
   Naslovnica
   Članki
   Literatura
   Javni razpisi 
   Forum
   
   
   


css
---
html { margin:0; padding: 0; width:100%; height:100%; }
body  { margin:0; padding: 0 0 2em 0; }ž

#header { margin:0; padding:0.5em 1em 0 2em; border-bottom:solid 5px
#3497EC; }


no witespaces ... if by those are space in code..


On 1/11/07, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi Mihael,

PHP won't do anything to HTML unless you ask it to. Are you sure you
aren't introducing extra whitespace into your markup when using the PHP
includes? This may introduce unwanted padding / gaps between elements...

Paul

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Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Matthew Smith]

Quoth Mihael Zadravec at 01/12/07 07:21...

OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now!
It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like it 
renders it properly..


Still OK in all browsers when done by hand?

I don't know what programming tools you have in Windows, but I would be 
inclined to write both the hand-coded and PHP generated code to a pair 
of files and then compare them, using something like the Unix diff utility.


Also check the MIME types that the two versions are being presented as. 
 I know that Firefox will render things differently depending on the 
MIME type with which XHTML content is served - normally margins around 
the page changing.


When creating pages dynamically, I believe it safest to control 
everything.  PHP has a tendency to set its own default headers, which 
can confuse the issue.  I would suggest, at a minimum, you use PHP's 
header() to control Content-type and cache control.


Having done all my early work in Perl, where what you write is what you 
get, I had some initial problems with PHP, where it tried to be too 
"helpful". Taking back full control of the headers can fix this.


If you need any code samples, contact me off-list; I am in the process 
of writing a CMS (Content Management System) toolkit in PHP, some of 
which may help you.


Cheers

M

--
Matthew Smith
IT Consultancy & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy


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RE: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Paul Bennett]

Hi Mihael,

PHP won't do anything to HTML unless you ask it to. Are you sure you aren't 
introducing extra whitespace into your markup when using the PHP includes? This 
may introduce unwanted padding / gaps between elements...

Paul

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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Brian Cummiskey]

Mihael Zadravec wrote:



Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution?

Check your white space.

IE is known to do this if the doctype is not the absolute FIRST thing in 
the document source code...  no blank lines, no spaces... nothing.



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Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now!
It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like it
renders it properly..



On 1/11/07, Mihael Zadravec < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I don't know any more... Is it me, or it is some kind of stupid software's
sh... problem?

Wen layout coded in xhtml and is "in one piece".. everithing is qool.
But, as I cut it on pieces, and inculde them with php's include_once
function, it ads to certain element ( don't get it what is the logical
procedur that picks them out ) 12px margin top and bottom... :(

Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution?

Btw. I'am useing notepad++ for coding...

thank you!

--
Računalniške storitve Toasted Web
Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
tel: 00386 51 808136
email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec
---
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http://www.toastedweb.com
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--
Računalniške storitve Toasted Web
Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
tel: 00386 51 808136
email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec
---
Toasted Web
http://www.toastedweb.com

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[WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???

[Mihael Zadravec]

I don't know any more... Is it me, or it is some kind of stupid software's
sh... problem?

Wen layout coded in xhtml and is "in one piece".. everithing is qool.
But, as I cut it on pieces, and inculde them with php's include_once
function, it ads to certain element ( don't get it what is the logical
procedur that picks them out ) 12px margin top and bottom... :(

Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution?

Btw. I'am useing notepad++ for coding...

thank you!

--
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Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
tel: 00386 51 808136
email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http://www.toastedweb.com

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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Andrew Maben wrote:

On Jan 11, 2007, at 6:47 AM, James Crooke wrote:

We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument 
is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users 
sometimes think "oh the button is dead"
 
So it's not just my personal preference to have a cursor change to a 
finger-pointer on a button.


"We" as designers know (presumably!) that a form button performs a 
different function from a hyperlink - submit/reset a form vs. direct 
browser to a new URL. To a user (who has no need to know, still less 
understand the technicalities of this difference) the result in each 
case is broadly the same: different content is presented in the browser 
window. As the pointer cursor means "click and something will happen", 
it makes sense to have the pointer appear in each case. (The use of form 
elements purely for navigation is another discussion...)


Where the browser's defaults fall short, i think we have at least the 
right, if not a duty, to override them. In this instance I'd be 
astonished if any user whose browser default button cursor is an arrow 
would exclaim, if presented with the pointer instead, "ohmigod! what 
happened? where's my arrow?", whereas the complementary "huh? is this 
button 'dead'?" reaction is fairly predictable.


Andrew


This is exactly my stance. I believe this common sense (now that 
somebody's confirmed it's not the product of insanity!) has a duty to 
override proprietary guidelines.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Andrew Maben]

On Jan 11, 2007, at 6:47 AM, James Crooke wrote:

We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my  
argument is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens,  
users sometimes think "oh the button is dead"


So it's not just my personal preference to have a cursor change to  
a finger-pointer on a button.


"We" as designers know (presumably!) that a form button performs a  
different function from a hyperlink - submit/reset a form vs. direct  
browser to a new URL. To a user (who has no need to know, still less  
understand the technicalities of this difference) the result in each  
case is broadly the same: different content is presented in the  
browser window. As the pointer cursor means "click and something will  
happen", it makes sense to have the pointer appear in each case. (The  
use of form elements purely for navigation is another discussion...)


Where the browser's defaults fall short, i think we have at least the  
right, if not a duty, to override them. In this instance I'd be  
astonished if any user whose browser default button cursor is an  
arrow would exclaim, if presented with the pointer instead, "ohmigod!  
what happened? where's my arrow?", whereas the complementary "huh? is  
this button 'dead'?" reaction is fairly predictable.


Andrew



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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 11 Jan 2007, at 15:36:52, Barney Carroll wrote:


@Nick:

I think it's fair to conclude that we simply disagree!


I agree :-)

Cheers,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

James Crooke wrote:
> P.S  For those that are interested: http://www.kare.com  - it's an
> interesting site!

Brilliant! I miss Windows 3 so much - it's all downhill from there! 
Interesting to see the person behind all this.


Mihael Zadravec wrote:
> I think that the best resolution was: If changed the default style of
> the button, use "pointer", if not changed, and buttons style is
> browsers default button style, than leave it as it is.

A very sober conclusion, and the one I've gone with. Neither this nor 
its opposite are imperative standards in my eyes though.


@Nick:

I think it's fair to conclude that we simply disagree! I still maintain 
my belief that the cursor icon does not associate with the difference 
between link and button in the minds of most. It is also true that 
usability should not be taken lightly, and my decision to change the 
cursor over buttons is based entirely on usability considerations.


"Users spend most of their time on other websites... This means that 
they form their expectations for your site based on what's commonly done 
on most other sites. If you deviate, your site will be harder to use."


While this is a useful mantra to remember, if it is taken as gospel, it 
means that a site less confusing and more usable than existing sites is 
impossible. If I were more cynical, I might say this is blind and 
hopeless promotion of the status quo, whatever it may be, and shuns 
innovation. It's like saying you shouldn't vote for people who aren't 
already in power!


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Please don't take this personally (it so happens it's one of my
bugbears, and I tend to start ranting when it comes up) but one of
the worst problems on the web is graphic designers who think that
their "vision" or "creativity" or whatever overrides the need for
usability. Graphic design for the web (or, indeed, anywhere) must
always be subordinate to usability; great graphic design recognises
this, and actually enhances usability, as well as being aesthetically
pleasing.




Amen to that! :D


Mihael


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 11 Jan 2007, at 14:30:05, Barney Carroll wrote:

Conceive of a persona who is not a read-up fan of Apple's UI  
recommendations (my target audience, incidentally). Are they going  
to hover their cursor over a button, see it turn into a hand, and  
get baffled? I very much doubt it. In fact I think it would  
elucidate the functionality of the button.


The point of being consistent is that the user notices nothing. As  
Jakob Nielsen puts it, "Users spend most of their time on other  
websites... This means that they form their expectations for your  
site based on what's commonly done on most other sites. If you  
deviate, your site will be harder to use." [1] The fact that it's a  
button elucidates its functionality. If you need to offer additional  
cues, you need to redesign your button.



The cursor, in my mind, has no bearing on this difference.


On the contrary, the cursor is a crucial element of the user  
experience. If it starts behaving in ways other than expected, the  
potential for confusion is there.


I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation  
gone mad - it is at the point where designing no longer requires  
insight or creativity, and simply demands mechanical processing  
according to ancient presets without analysis.


Please don't take this personally (it so happens it's one of my  
bugbears, and I tend to start ranting when it comes up) but one of  
the worst problems on the web is graphic designers who think that  
their "vision" or "creativity" or whatever overrides the need for  
usability. Graphic design for the web (or, indeed, anywhere) must  
always be subordinate to usability; great graphic design recognises  
this, and actually enhances usability, as well as being aesthetically  
pleasing.


As for "ancient presets": Apple carried out several years of regular  
user testing in the process of designing the Mac user interface [2].  
They still do this, and the default cursor behaviour is one of the  
things they have found no reason to change. The expression "If it  
ain't broke, don't fix it" is often used inappropriately (as Kent  
Beck's grandmother says, "If it stinks, change it" [3]) but in this  
case I don't believe anything is broken, and you are solving a  
problem that doesn't exist.


Kind regards,

Nick.

[1] 
[2] 
[3] Quoted in the book "Refactoring: Improving the design of existing  
code" by Martin Fowler et al. 

--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[James Crooke]

P.S  For those that are interested: http://www.kare.com  - it's an
interesting site!

On 1/11/07, James Crooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Sorry, I thought Microsoft were the first to come up with the different
cursor styles.  I thought that when Susan Kare (designer of the cursors 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kare
) spent time at Microsoft doing graphic design work she came up with the
cursor we all know and love to argue about.

I apologise for not knowing my cursor history.

I'd rather not argue over an opinion - I have statistics to do that for
me.

Cheers guys.


 On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote:
>
> > So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button,
> > (default) arrow
> > cursor or finger-pointer cursor?
> >
> > (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the
> > convention of a
> > default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default
> > attributes to
> > prevent breaking conventions.)
>
> What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in
> the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case
> since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the
> same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human
> Interface Guidelines [1].
>
> When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor
> when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a
> button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely
> causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons
> aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI
> design, which is why they give different feedback.
>
> If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the
> cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then
> leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established
> for a reason.
>
> If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that
> would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be
> fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system.
> There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if
> it hinders it, it becomes a problem.
>
> Regards,
>
> Nick.
>
> [1]  Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGCursors/chapter_15_section_2.html#//
> apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002724-TPXREF101>
>
> [2]  Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_2.html#//
> apple_ref/doc/uid/TP3359-TPXREF186>
>
> --
> Nick Fitzsimons
> http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/
>
>
>
>
>
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>


--
James





--
James


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone

mad - it is at the point where designing no longer requires insight or
creativity, and simply demands mechanical processing according to
ancient presets without analysis.



Sometimes it realy looks like some of us are exaggerating and this issue
(cursor style) is like "walking on the edge"... but somehow, it should be
standardized. It is a small issue, but still it is.

I think, there is still alot of space for graphic designers to manoevre
after or before applying standards...

Do user realy care about standards? Most of them don not even know that they
exist. That is way we are here. :D

I think that the best resolution was: If changed the default style of the
button, use "pointer", if not changed, and buttons style is browsers default
button style, than leave it as it is.

Mihael


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Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility

[Andrew Maben]

for accessibility purposes in using color (on links and visited  
links, etc.) i would recommend using the color contrast analyzer  
fromhttp://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/


This is now at: http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/info.aspx?page=628


Andrew Maben

109b SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Ph: 352-384-9127
Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."






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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[James Crooke]

Sorry, I thought Microsoft were the first to come up with the different
cursor styles.  I thought that when Susan Kare (designer of the cursors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kare) spent time at Microsoft doing
graphic design work she came up with the cursor we all know and love to
argue about.

I apologise for not knowing my cursor history.

I'd rather not argue over an opinion - I have statistics to do that for me.

Cheers guys.


On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote:

> So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button,
> (default) arrow
> cursor or finger-pointer cursor?
>
> (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the
> convention of a
> default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default
> attributes to
> prevent breaking conventions.)

What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in
the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case
since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the
same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human
Interface Guidelines [1].

When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor
when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a
button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely
causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons
aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI
design, which is why they give different feedback.

If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the
cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then
leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established
for a reason.

If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that
would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be
fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system.
There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if
it hinders it, it becomes a problem.

Regards,

Nick.

[1] 

[2] 

--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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--
James


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Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

[Rob O'Rourke]

Mihael Zadravec wrote:


Oh boy..! Ok..!.  :D I am not the author of that page.
It was just a bad examle of Blind people community website :D

But hey!..thanks for links anyway!

cya!
Mihael



Haha! sorry Mihael I thought it was your site and you were asking for 
comments!


d'oh

and yes, it is very sad..



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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor when 
hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a button 
(which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely causes 
navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons aren't the 
same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI design, which 
is why they give different feedback.


I am not attempting to discredit these distinctions, which bear a lot of 
relevance; but I strongly doubt the notion that distinctions down to 
this level (some are indeed needed, and nobody here is suggesting that 
buttons be indistinguishable from links) are of vital importance to users.


Conceive of a persona who is not a read-up fan of Apple's UI 
recommendations (my target audience, incidentally). Are they going to 
hover their cursor over a button, see it turn into a hand, and get 
baffled? I very much doubt it. In fact I think it would elucidate the 
functionality of the button.


Action as opposed to navigation is an important difference, and I make 
it visible. The cursor, in my mind, has no bearing on this difference.


I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone 
mad.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor when 
hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a button 
(which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely causes 
navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons aren't the 
same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI design, which 
is why they give different feedback.


I am not attempting to discredit these distinctions, which bear a lot of 
relevance; but I strongly doubt the notion that distinctions down to 
this level (some are indeed needed, and nobody here is suggesting that 
buttons be indistinguishable from links) are of vital importance to users.


Conceive of a persona who is not a read-up fan of Apple's UI 
recommendations (my target audience, incidentally). Are they going to 
hover their cursor over a button, see it turn into a hand, and get 
baffled? I very much doubt it. In fact I think it would elucidate the 
functionality of the button.


Action as opposed to navigation is an important difference, and I make 
it visible. The cursor, in my mind, has no bearing on this difference.


I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone 
mad - it is at the point where designing no longer requires insight or 
creativity, and simply demands mechanical processing according to 
ancient presets without analysis.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote:

So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button,  
(default) arrow

cursor or finger-pointer cursor?

(For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the  
convention of a
default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default  
attributes to

prevent breaking conventions.)


What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in  
the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case  
since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the  
same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human  
Interface Guidelines [1].


When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor  
when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a  
button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely  
causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons  
aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI  
design, which is why they give different feedback.


If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the  
cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then  
leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established  
for a reason.


If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that  
would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be  
fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system.  
There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if  
it hinders it, it becomes a problem.


Regards,

Nick.

[1] 


[2] 


--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[James Crooke]

So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button, (default) arrow
cursor or finger-pointer cursor?

(For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the convention of a
default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default attributes to
prevent breaking conventions.)


So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change
it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion "oh, on this

site

it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
sites it's dead".


If you have ever conducted a usability test, you will know that users will
also voice their opinions on things that effect all websites (like buttons
not having state changes).  This is where we (as designers) will respond
with "well err, that's the default so we left it like that".

Incidentally, if I flip my Windows XP settings to the XP theme, my default
buttons are highlighted on hover (google search button is best example) -
whereas before (with Windows Standard theme) they are just grey and have no
hover state.  Please bear this in mind when talking about "breaking the
default behaviour".  Note: as soon as you change the background color of a
button, you have broken the XP themed hover state.


Regards

James



On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Patrick Lauke wrote:
>> James Crooke
>
>> We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument
>> is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users
>> sometimes think "oh the button is dead"
>
> A counter argument to that:
>
> So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then
change
> it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion "oh, on this
site
> it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
> sites it's dead".
>
> It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd
argue,
> is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of
> information per se).

This is an interesting philosophy.

I personally believe that Microsoft and the awful IT education in this
country (UK) have created a terrible culture of people who are so
steeped in the logic of  Microsoft's very worst user interfaces, that
they perceive and value objects akin to these systems ahead of innately
intuitive interaction processes.

A massive amount of common culture must be used on any document for it
to be legible, and in the domain of websites there is also a lot of
convention to follow. However an integral part of my job is producing
'outside-of-the-box' solutions that don't depend on a user's knowledge
of computer systems convention, and instead rely on innate human
psychology. This sounds pretentious but good designers do this (or at
least they try) all the time. Another aspect includes 'branding' sites.
There are those weirdos who want their site to look exactly like a
Windows desktop, but most people want a look and feel and way of doing
things that is unique to them and their site, which can then be
incorporated into their corporate identity.

By the way, I'm not a corporate identity or particularly commercial
designer, most of my projects are for government and non-profit
organisations.

Regards,
Barney


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--
James


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Patrick Lauke wrote:

James Crooke



We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument
is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users
sometimes think "oh the button is dead"


A counter argument to that:

So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change
it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion "oh, on this site
it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
sites it's dead".

It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd argue,
is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of
information per se).


This is an interesting philosophy.

I personally believe that Microsoft and the awful IT education in this 
country (UK) have created a terrible culture of people who are so 
steeped in the logic of  Microsoft's very worst user interfaces, that 
they perceive and value objects akin to these systems ahead of innately 
intuitive interaction processes.


A massive amount of common culture must be used on any document for it 
to be legible, and in the domain of websites there is also a lot of 
convention to follow. However an integral part of my job is producing 
'outside-of-the-box' solutions that don't depend on a user's knowledge 
of computer systems convention, and instead rely on innate human 
psychology. This sounds pretentious but good designers do this (or at 
least they try) all the time. Another aspect includes 'branding' sites. 
There are those weirdos who want their site to look exactly like a 
Windows desktop, but most people want a look and feel and way of doing 
things that is unique to them and their site, which can then be 
incorporated into their corporate identity.


By the way, I'm not a corporate identity or particularly commercial 
designer, most of my projects are for government and non-profit 
organisations.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Mihael Zadravec wrote:
I think it's good to leave the cursor behavior as it is by browsers 
default, when using the visual style for button that is also browsers 
default ( if we are talking about input type="button" or "submit"), but 
if designer created his own style and it is not so clear that it is a 
"system button" then it would be good to change it's cursor properti to 
"pointer"...


Mihael


I agree completely.

Regards,
Barney


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RE: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Patrick Lauke]

> James Crooke

> We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument
> is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users
> sometimes think "oh the button is dead"

A counter argument to that:

So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change
it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion "oh, on this site
it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
sites it's dead".

It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd argue,
is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of
information per se).

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/



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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

I think it's good to leave the cursor behavior as it is by browsers default,
when using the visual style for button that is also browsers default ( if we
are talking about input type="button" or "submit"), but if designer created
his own style and it is not so clear that it is a "system button" then it
would be good to change it's cursor properti to "pointer"...

Mihael



On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different
> action to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they
> should have the same curser does not seem valid to me.

You can't deny their similarity though. Seriously - are there any
elements more similar to either?

A visual distinction is often needed between buttons and anchors
(although based on context you could argue against), but as long as
they're not identical, I can see why you'd want to emphasise their
shared aspects with common semantic styling; hence the hand icon, which
traditionally denotes objects you can click on.

Regards,
Barney


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--
Računalniške storitve Toasted Web
Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
tel: 00386 51 808136
email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec
---
Toasted Web
http://www.toastedweb.com

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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different 
action to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they 
should have the same curser does not seem valid to me.


You can't deny their similarity though. Seriously - are there any 
elements more similar to either?


A visual distinction is often needed between buttons and anchors 
(although based on context you could argue against), but as long as 
they're not identical, I can see why you'd want to emphasise their 
shared aspects with common semantic styling; hence the hand icon, which 
traditionally denotes objects you can click on.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[James Crooke]

Silly point.  I'm pretty sure Krug would have designed his cover :S

We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument is
that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users sometimes think
"oh the button is dead"

So it's not just my personal preference to have a cursor change to a
finger-pointer on a button.


On 1/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 First things first - what makes you think that Steve Krug designed the
cover of that book? My father has authored several books, and I can tell you
that he has a fairly low regard for the designers that produce his covers,
and routinely place items upside down etc.

To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different action
to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they should have the
same curser does not seem valid to me.

Mike

 --
*From:* listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *James Crooke
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:26 PM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links


 Here's one for you.

OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change the default
cursor.

But even Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" has a pointer (the finger cursor)
hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in IE and
Firefox buttons have the cursor.

Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as
hyperlinks.  I always apply "cursor:pointer" to my buttons - partly because
my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and Krug, it seems) that it
helps usability.

Who disagrees?


On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Patrick H. Lauke skrev:
> > Quoting Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >:
> >
> >> There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the
> >> vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.
> >
> > Some people have very specific problems, but will have to learn how to
>
> > adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with them. Breaking
> > default functionality in browsers to "aid" these users is not a
> > sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these people, you're
> > creating problems for an other section of users who actually rely on
> the
> > browser's default behaviour.
>
> OK, I have now changed the "text marker" cursor on my own system, much
> easier to see it now :-)
>
> /anders
>
>
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--
James
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--
James


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RE: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[michael.brockington]

First things first - what makes you think that Steve Krug designed the
cover of that book? My father has authored several books, and I can tell
you that he has a fairly low regard for the designers that produce his
covers, and routinely place items upside down etc.
 
To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different
action to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they
should have the same curser does not seem valid to me.
 
Mike




From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Crooke
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but
links


Here's one for you.
 
OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change
the default cursor.
 
But even Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" has a pointer (the finger
cursor) hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in
IE and Firefox buttons have the cursor.
 
Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the
same as hyperlinks.  I always apply "cursor:pointer" to my buttons -
partly because my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and
Krug, it seems) that it helps usability. 
 
Who disagrees?

 
On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 



Patrick H. Lauke skrev:
> Quoting Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >:
>
>> There are people who have problems to spot the cursor
when it's the
>> vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the
arrow.
>
> Some people have very specific problems, but will have
to learn how to 
> adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with
them. Breaking
> default functionality in browsers to "aid" these users
is not a
> sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these
people, you're 
> creating problems for an other section of users who
actually rely on the
> browser's default behaviour.

OK, I have now changed the "text marker" cursor on my
own system, much
easier to see it now :-) 

/anders



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-- 
James 

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Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)

[Matthew Smith]

Quoth Barney Carroll at 01/11/07 20:48...
@Matthew: And the only 'tampering' Opera Mini does as far as styling is 
concerned is ignore background-image rules? Or does it not render 
images, full stop?


On its own, Opera Mini doesn't do a lot to the content; however, those 
of us with slower (pre-3G) and expensive connections - we pay by the 
kilobyte - may be inclined to turn all images off for time/economic 
reasons.  Just like going back to the old, slow, modem days.


The challenges of presenting content to Opera Mini are:

1) Keeping the total data size to a minimum
2) Dealing with a very, very small screen
3) No plugins (I have not checked to see whether JavaScript is handled 
or not.)


M

--
Matthew Smith
IT Consultancy & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy


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Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)

[David Dorward]

On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 10:58:55AM +, Brothercake wrote:
> >Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to 

> Opera would disagree with you

Opera, presumably, recognises that a great many websites are designed
in a mobile-unfriendly fashion and write code to compensate for
it. That doesn't mean they should have to do that.

-- 
David Dorward  http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Quoting Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:



On the iPhone's site, I thought the Safari demo
[www.apple.com/iphone/internet] was the least impressive thing. The
fact that it's the most sophisticated (read: complex) hand-held browser
is not necessarily good - for example, the browsing of the nytimes and
fandango as demonstrated looked completely ineffectual.

Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to
customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively
accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our
ability to decide on what's best for the user.


They could start by honouring media="handheld", rather than pretending  
that even on a small screen device, your browser should fetch the  
styling set for normal screens.


I've asked a contact of mine at Apple if Safari on iPhone does this,  
but he couldn't give me any specifics at this stage either.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)

[Brothercake]

Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to 
customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively 
accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our 
ability to decide on what's best for the user.


Opera would disagree with you - Opera Mobile (their fully-fledged 
mobile browser, as opposed to Opera Mini which is essentially just a 
proxy tool) does exactly that - it magically make sites intuitively 
accessible on small devices




J



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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

James Crooke wrote:

Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as 
hyperlinks.


"Personally" being the key here, again. Overriding browser default 
behaviour and UI cues is not a sustainable model, just because *you* 
think you know better, in most cases.



Who disagrees?


Browser manufacturers, quite obviously.


Woah!

Was it somebody on this list who suggested that recommending Firefox on 
your personal homepage was akin to Nazism?


All CSS is over-riding browser behaviour. Sometimes this runs contrary 
to what is best for the user, but that's entirely what a good designer's 
judgment is about - and what I thought this list was for.


Making all text blue and underlined would be bad judgment in over-riding 
browser pre-sets. Making the mouse cursor turn into a pointer over 
buttons is very intuitive and I don't think it'll ruin anybody's browser 
experience.


Too much trust in browser developers is never a good thing. At the very 
least they should be able to look to the design community for usability 
experience. If we're just nodding, everything spirals into inanity.


Regards,
Barney


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RE: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility

[Frank Palinkas]

Apologies, my reply was to Matthew, not Dwain.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matthew Smith
Sent: Thursday, 11 January, 2007 10:18 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility

Quoth Dwain Alford at 01/11/07 18:09...

> for accessibility purposes in using color (on links and visited links, 
> etc.) i would recommend using the color contrast analyzer from 
> http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/ 
> 
> since web sites need to be accessible to everyone, don't forget the 
> color blind, so make sure your colors work for them not just those with 
> normal color vision.

I find excessive colours distracting and confess that I am guilty of 
displaying visited and unvisited links the same, and only changing on 
focus/hover.

With the colour blindness issue taken into consideration as well, would 
it not be better, therefore, to style visited links in a manner where 
colour is not involved at all?

Not being a CSS guru, I would need to check what options are available, 
but something like a line over and under the word for visited links may 
be a possibility.

Cheers

M

-- 
Matthew Smith
IT Consultancy & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy


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[WSG] Online Publishing Heavy sites & horizontal navigation systems

[Ruairi Doyle]

Hello list.

This is my first post, but I have been subscribed and enjoying this list for 
quite sometime.

I work in online newspaper publishing.  I'd like to gage some wise opinion from 
anyone who's interested
on tabbed horizontal navigation systems for large publishing sites?

Reasons I ask is we're trying to improve our own going forward, to be 
accessible, usable, intuitive and
of course pretty.

To cut to the chase what are peoples opinion of the following navigation 
systems:

NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html
Here there is two steps to get to a section under US news.

INDY UK http://news.independent.co.uk
Here it is full of javascript but it takes 1 step to get to a section under 
Sport for example.

Open questions, open opinions very welcome.

Kind Regards
Ruairi




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Re: [WSG] Tabbed Navigation Review

[Daniel Torres Burriel]

Ruairi Doyle escribió:


Hello list.


Hi!!

To cut to the chase what are peoples opinion of the following navigation 
systems:


NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html
Here there is two steps to get to a section under US news.

INDY UK http://news.independent.co.uk
Here it is full of javascript but it takes 1 step to get to a section 
under Sport for example.


Open questions, open opinions very welcome.


I like very much navigation system of El Pais (www.elpais.com), tab 
based, it take 2 clicks but there's only 2 nav levels, where level 2 is 
grouped near level 1.


(sorry my english)

Cheers!
--
/* Daniel Torres Burriel - www.torresburriel.com
/* Web design - Usability consulting - IT Press
/* More info & bio: www.torresburriel.com/perfil/
/* GPG key: 0x43DB2AB7

--= Antes de imprimir este mensaje, por favor compruebe que es 
verdaderamente necesario. El Medio Ambiente es cosa de todos. =--



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RE: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Dwain,

Others will have different ways of handling this, but I can tell you how I
handle incorporating link color, underlining and images through an external
css stylesheet.

Color: I use the normal blue for unvisited likes and the normal purple for
visited links. All links are set to bold to make them easier to see and
identify.

Underlining: Both unvisited and visited links are underlined (border-bottom)
in their respective colors. This is set in the external stylesheet. 

Images: I use two images/icons to identify if a link has or has not been
visited. Each image is 20 x 15 pixels in size, with transparent backgrounds.
The unvisited link has an image/icon of an arrow pointing to a document. The
visited link has an image/icon of a checkmark.  The images are not part of
the markup, but are called from the stylesheet from an images folder in the
main web project folder. This is because of the dynamic effect of the
image/icon changing after the user clicks a link.

Here is the css that makes it happen. If you need the two images, I can email
them to you off-list.


/* a links */
a:link
{
text-decoration: none;
color: #ff;
font-weight: bold;
border-bottom: 1px solid #ff;
padding: 0em 1.5em 0em 0em;
background: url(images/link.gif) no-repeat right center;
}

a:visited
{
text-decoration: none;
color: #800080;
font-weight: bold;
border-bottom: 1px solid #800080;
padding: 0em 1.5em 0em 0em;
background: url(images/visited.gif) no-repeat right center;
}

Hope this helps,

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+
Senior Technical Communicator
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer  
 
website: http://frank.helpware.net  
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
Member:  
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.)  
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.)  
 
super group trading ltd.  
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa  
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za 

Work:   +27 011 523 4931  
Home:   +27 011 455 5287  
Fax:+27 011 455 3112  
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matthew Smith
Sent: Thursday, 11 January, 2007 10:18 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility

Quoth Dwain Alford at 01/11/07 18:09...

> for accessibility purposes in using color (on links and visited links, 
> etc.) i would recommend using the color contrast analyzer from 
> http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/ 
> 
> since web sites need to be accessible to everyone, don't forget the 
> color blind, so make sure your colors work for them not just those with 
> normal color vision.

I find excessive colours distracting and confess that I am guilty of 
displaying visited and unvisited links the same, and only changing on 
focus/hover.

With the colour blindness issue taken into consideration as well, would 
it not be better, therefore, to style visited links in a manner where 
colour is not involved at all?

Not being a CSS guru, I would need to check what options are available, 
but something like a line over and under the word for visited links may 
be a possibility.

Cheers

M

-- 
Matthew Smith
IT Consultancy & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

James Crooke wrote:

Here's one for you.
 
OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change the 
default cursor.
 
But even Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" has a pointer (the finger cursor) 
hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in IE and 
Firefox buttons have the cursor.
 
Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as 
hyperlinks.  I always apply "cursor:pointer" to my buttons - partly 
because my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and Krug, it 
seems) that it helps usability.
 
Who disagrees?


I have resigned myself to this. I decided last night that I couldn't 
justify the amount of time I spent specifically on IE6 for each project 
- my design process involves designing the best-case site, building it, 
and then making it work in IE6+7, which involves a lot of work that I am 
now not so sure is valid use of time.


What I'm getting at is that I'm ditching my .htc and .js ideas for 
hovering buttons and falling back on this [cursor:pointer] technique, 
which is actually more than enough to denote interactivity - and has 
indicated this since time immemorial.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)

[Barney Carroll]

@Matthew: And the only 'tampering' Opera Mini does as far as styling is 
concerned is ignore background-image rules? Or does it not render 
images, full stop?


Tyssen Design wrote:
The launch of Apple's iPhone could also have a significant impact in 
this area too.


On the iPhone's site, I thought the Safari demo 
[www.apple.com/iphone/internet] was the least impressive thing. The fact 
that it's the most sophisticated (read: complex) hand-held browser is 
not necessarily good - for example, the browsing of the nytimes and 
fandango as demonstrated looked completely ineffectual.


Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to 
customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively 
accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our ability 
to decide on what's best for the user.


Incidentally, screen-size-sensitive stylesheets are an excellent notion 
[http://alistapart.com/articles/switchymclayout].


Regards,
Barney


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[WSG] Tabbed Navigation Review

[Ruairi Doyle]

Hello list.

This is my first post, but I have been subscribed and enjoying this list for 
quite sometime.

I work in online newspaper publishing.  I'd like to gage some wise opinion from 
anyone who's interested
on tabbed horizontal navigation systems for large publishing sites?

Reasons I ask is we're trying to improve our own going forward, to be 
accessible, usable, intuitive and
of course pretty.

To cut to the chase what are peoples opinion of the following navigation 
systems:

NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html
Here there is two steps to get to a section under US news.

INDY UK http://news.independent.co.uk
Here it is full of javascript but it takes 1 step to get to a section under 
Sport for example.

Open questions, open opinions very welcome.

Kind Regards
Ruairi




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[WSG] Tabbed Navigation Review

[Ruairi Doyle]

Hello list.

This is my first post, but I have been subscribed and enjoying this list for 
quite sometime.

I work in online newspaper publishing.  I'd like to gage some wise opinion from 
anyone who's interested
on tabbed horizontal navigation systems for large publishing sites?

Reasons I ask is we're trying to improve our own going forward, to be 
accessible, usable, intuitive and
of course pretty.

To cut to the chase what are peoples opinion of the following navigation 
systems:

NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html
Here there is two steps to get to a section under US news.

INDY UK http://news.independent.co.uk
Here it is full of javascript but it takes 1 step to get to a section under 
Sport for example.

Open questions, open opinions very welcome.

Kind Regards
Ruairi


--
Independent.ie
Ruairi Doyle

27-32 Talbot St.
Dublin 1

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
desk.   +353 1 7055873
mobile. +353 86 8800555

http://www.independent.ie



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Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility

[Matthew Smith]

Quoth Dwain Alford at 01/11/07 18:09...

for accessibility purposes in using color (on links and visited links, 
etc.) i would recommend using the color contrast analyzer from 
http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/ 


since web sites need to be accessible to everyone, don't forget the 
color blind, so make sure your colors work for them not just those with 
normal color vision.


I find excessive colours distracting and confess that I am guilty of 
displaying visited and unvisited links the same, and only changing on 
focus/hover.


With the colour blindness issue taken into consideration as well, would 
it not be better, therefore, to style visited links in a manner where 
colour is not involved at all?


Not being a CSS guru, I would need to check what options are available, 
but something like a line over and under the word for visited links may 
be a possibility.


Cheers

M

--
Matthew Smith
IT Consultancy & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy


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Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility

[Tim]

Thanks for mentioning the colour blind Dwain, blue colour blindness is 
the rarest form.

8% of adult males have some form of color blindness.

http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Access/index.html#colourblind

Tim

On 11/01/2007, at 6:39 PM, Dwain Alford wrote:


> So, not sure what the best way is, but, I myself, tend to go with a
> lighter shade of the non-visited.  Just do something!  :)



for accessibility purposes in using color (on links and visited links, 
etc.) i would recommend using the color contrast analyzer from 
http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/


since web sites need to be accessible to everyone, don't forget the 
color blind, so make sure your colors work for them not just those 
with normal color vision.


dwain

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The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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