RE: [OT] ADSL
I'm with Pipex [...] Only one outage, and that was down to my ADSL router. Heh, I cursed it didn't I...? Pipex went down last night, due to a BT c*ck-up. Lee 'That which does not kill us, only postpones the inevitable'
Re: [OT] ADSL
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 09:46:16AM +0100, Blackwell, Lee [IT] wrote: I'm with Pipex [...] Only one outage, and that was down to my ADSL router. Heh, I cursed it didn't I...? Pipex went down last night, due to a BT c*ck-up. And Dircon, and Demon... can't really blame Pipex for that, no matter how much you might want to. :-) R
RE: [OT] ADSL
And Dircon, and Demon... can't really blame Pipex for that, no matter how much you might want to. :-) I quite like Pipex (well, I used to work for Worldcom/PipexUUnet years ago), but having a go at BT works for me ;-) L.
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
What MTA? Did you reboot the machine? Bear in mind that most MTAs fork to handle some of the process, if any of the libraries that is currently using have disappeared (they have been erased and replacements with different inode nos added), then forks will fail. I have done more or less exactly what you did, rebooted, it just works. Mind you I run exim with rpms that I maintain. On Tue, 2003-04-01 at 23:32, Dave Cross wrote: I've just worked at that at some point on Saturday 22nd March, my Linux box decided to stop sending emails out. Emails that I sent to mailing lists on Fri 21st March arrived. Emails that I send to mailing lists on Sat 22nd March (and subsequently) didn't. On 22nd March I installed some new rpms via Redhat's up2date tool. These were: nscd-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 03:09:43 PM GMT glibc-profile-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 03:09:41 PM GMT glibc-devel-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 10:20:48 AM GMT glibc-common-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 10:19:28 AM GMT glibc-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 10:18:33 AM GMT evolution-1.0.8-11 Sat 22 Mar 2003 10:17:28 AM GMT But I can't really see how any of those would effect mail (I use mutt, not Evolution for mail). If someone could give me a step-by-step guide to debugging email delivery in RH 8.0 then I'd be very grateful. Thanks, Dave... -- Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
From: Dirk Koopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 4/2/03 9:07:11 AM What MTA? It's sendmail. Did you reboot the machine? No. Not yet. I should probably try restarting sendmail first. Bear in mind that most MTAs fork to handle some of the process, if any of the libraries that is currently using have disappeared (they have been erased and replacements with different inode nos added), then forks will fail. I have done more or less exactly what you did, rebooted, it just works. Mind you I run exim with rpms that I maintain. I made some progress this morning. mailq revealed all 200-odd emails still waiting in the queue and sendmail -q sent them all on their merry way. Just need to work out why sendmail isn't automatically sending them at the moment. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk Let me see you make decisions, without your television - Depeche Mode (Stripped)
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 10:16, Dave Cross wrote: From: Dirk Koopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 4/2/03 9:07:11 AM What MTA? It's sendmail. Did you reboot the machine? No. Not yet. I should probably try restarting sendmail first. Bear in mind that most MTAs fork to handle some of the process, if any of the libraries that is currently using have disappeared (they have been erased and replacements with different inode nos added), then forks will fail. I have done more or less exactly what you did, rebooted, it just works. Mind you I run exim with rpms that I maintain. I made some progress this morning. mailq revealed all 200-odd emails still waiting in the queue and sendmail -q sent them all on their merry way. Which simply confirms my conjecture. New (independant) process, uses new glibc, works. Just need to work out why sendmail isn't automatically sending them at the moment. service sendmail restart But, it would be simpler and better to reboot the machine. You have just replaced the most fundamental library in the system. In order to get the benefits of any changes for *all* programs - you must reboot. Dirk -- Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
Re: RegEx for UK Postal Codes
On Tuesday 01 April 2003 14:35, David M. Wilson wrote: The only other thing I could offer you is a recommendation to buy the PAF if your budget allows it. all I can say on that point is 'streetmap' and 'LWP' are two rather fine words/accronyms aren't they. hey ho :) -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: The joys of web development
On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Peter Sergeant wrote: What about old browsers, that support JavaScript but not the noscript HTML element? *sighs* Which are they? Netscape 2. But the 2 people who still use that browser will get both a submit button and the scipty onChange stuff, so it doesn't really matter, Paul
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 01:16:21AM -0800, Dave Cross wrote: I made some progress this morning. mailq revealed all 200-odd emails still waiting in the queue and sendmail -q sent them all on their merry way. Just need to work out why sendmail isn't automatically sending them at the moment. Maybe sendmail is fine - I noticed yesterday (? postcode disc. maybe) that your posts arrived several hours late, when the list seemed to be functioning fine. Perhaps you're having bizarre DNS/resolver issues? That would fit with a glibc upgrade.. Cheers, Alex.
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
On 1 Apr 2003, Dave Cross wrote: I've just worked at that at some point on Saturday 22nd March, my Linux box decided to stop sending emails out. On 22nd March I installed some new rpms via Redhat's up2date tool. These were: nscd-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 03:09:43 PM GMT glibc-profile-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 03:09:41 PM GMT glibc-devel-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 10:20:48 AM GMT glibc-common-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 10:19:28 AM GMT glibc-2.3.2-4.80 Sat 22 Mar 2003 10:18:33 AM GMT evolution-1.0.8-11 Sat 22 Mar 2003 10:17:28 AM GMT But I can't really see how any of those would effect mail (I use mutt, not Evolution for mail). A glibc update often requires that you restart daemonised applications such as sendmail. Have you tried restarting it? Jason Clifford -- UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ Sign up now
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
Quoting Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): No. Not yet. I should probably try restarting sendmail first. Yes, that'll probably help if you upgraded libc. You need to restart sshd and other daemons as well. Just need to work out why sendmail isn't automatically sending them at the moment. Look in /var/log/mail.log, that should tell you in far too much detail. Cheers, -- Merijn Broeren | We take risks, we know we take them. Therefore, when things Software Geek | come out against us, we have no cause for complaint. | - Scott, last journal entry, march 1912
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
From: Alex Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 4/2/03 9:28:07 AM On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 01:16:21AM -0800, Dave Cross wrote: I made some progress this morning. mailq revealed all 200-odd emails still waiting in the queue and sendmail -q sent them all on their merry way. Just need to work out why sendmail isn't automatically sending them at the moment. Maybe sendmail is fine - I noticed yesterday (? postcode disc. maybe) that your posts arrived several hours late, when the list seemed to be functioning fine. Perhaps you're having bizarre DNS/resolver issues? That would fit with a glibc upgrade.. That was a separate issue. At work I use a webmail system (the same one that I used to send my plea for help last night) and for some reason yesterday that decided to hold on to my emails for several hours before sending them. Sometimes it sucks to be me :) Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk Let me see you make decisions, without your television - Depeche Mode (Stripped)
Re: The joys of web development
paul hammond wrote: On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Peter Sergeant wrote: Netscape 2. But the 2 people who still use that browser will get both a submit button and the scipty onChange stuff, so it doesn't really matter, I'd shorten that to the 2 people that still use that browser don't matter. At all. -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
RE: RegEx for UK Postal Codes
I recall that Hong Kong is BFPO 1. :) Send mail thousands of miles overseas for the price of a 1st class stamp... -- Mike (Learning Perl with the 3rd edition, but very slowly.)
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
On 02 Apr 2003 10:07:11 +0100, Dirk Koopman wrote: Bear in mind that most MTAs fork to handle some of the process, if any of the libraries that is currently using have disappeared (they have been erased and replacements with different inode nos added), then forks will fail. I can't believe this is true. -- Peter Haworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Democracy is overrated. I think a meritocracy is needed. Perhaps measured by Perl competence. -- Simon Cozens
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 10:35, Robin Berjon wrote: paul hammond wrote: On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Peter Sergeant wrote: Netscape 2. But the 2 people who still use that browser will get both a submit button and the scipty onChange stuff, so it doesn't really matter, I'd shorten that to the 2 people that still use that browser don't matter. At all. Seconded. And I would add that Netscrape 3 / IE 3 users don't count for much either, anymore. Dirk -- Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
Re: [OT] ADSL
On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:33PM +0100, Jon Reades wrote: Roger Burton West wrote: snip Finally, are there any ADSL suppliers to avoid, or that are wonderful. [3] snip ...you'll probably want to steer clear of BT... I can back that up - our BT broadband installation (paid for by partner's work when he started working from home, they insisted on BT on the noone ever got fired for buying IBM basis) took a month a half to sort out. Initial appointment required a 3-week wait; engineer then showed up with the wrong bits, which turned out to be because they had the wrong plan booked on their system. Engineer did not, of course, have *right* bits in van thus had to go away again. Rebooking, it transpired, required phoning up cancelling, then *waiting 24 hrs* and phoning again. Because otherwise the system would get confused think that the rebooking needed cancelling as well (riiight). Except we continued not to hear anything back from them, it eventually transpired that it wasn't 24hrs you needed to wait, it was 48hrs. Cue another couple of weeks waiting for an engineer appt... *And* then they gave us the wrong username on the piece of paper, that took about an hour on the phone to sort out. Having said that, only one connection outage since, touch wood. But would *not* recommend them at all. Juliet
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 10:44:24AM +0100, Peter Haworth wrote: On 02 Apr 2003 10:07:11 +0100, Dirk Koopman wrote: Bear in mind that most MTAs fork to handle some of the process, if any of the libraries that is currently using have disappeared (they have been erased and replacements with different inode nos added), then forks will fail. I can't believe this is true. It isn't anymore. Most of them, if they fork() at all, will fork() at the accept stage. Exim has some magic with re-exec()ing itself at various points to be able to regain privilege, but this doesn't have to involve forking. The original sendmail used to fork() to handle the various different SMTP commands, (which is why pipelining is an extension to SMTP, and why real RFC821 SMTP *MUST* be lock-step). I don't believe that anything such as this has been done for a very long time, though. They may well fire off auxiliary helpers, of course for pipe deliveries or even for actual local deliveries via, for example mail.local or procmail. TMTATSNBN also involves lots of small processes, so probably fork()s and exec()s in many places. Anyway, getting back to the original point. If this were indeed the case, then there are two issues with Dirk's original post: 1) the inodes will still exist (they will exist until both their link count and their reference count have gone to 0). The unlink() call only decrements the former. :-) 2) if this were indeed the case, then I believe that the sendmail -q would also have failed. -- Lusercop.net - LARTing Lusers everywhere since 2002
Re: The joys of web development
On 02 Apr 2003 10:48:21 +0100, Dirk Koopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Netscape 2. Seconded. And I would add that Netscrape 3 / IE 3 users don't count for much either, anymore. Look what year it is. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990418.html c. -- Il n'y a pas d'article correspondant à votre demande. Le blog au lequel vous pensez est à http://www.anti-mega.com
Re: The joys of web development
Chris Heathcote wrote: On 02 Apr 2003 10:48:21 +0100, Dirk Koopman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seconded. And I would add that Netscrape 3 / IE 3 users don't count for much either, anymore. Look what year it is. http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990418.html Remarquably accurate. You may wish to read http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/espn-interview/01/ as well if you haven't already. After eliminating bots and everything under 0.1%, my logs give me Gecko+KHTML at 17% and IE5+ at 83%. The rest doesn't exist. This means you can reasonably start thinking about XHTML 1.1 Strict with some good CSS (as eg w3.org). -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
Re: The joys of web development
To be a little nit-picky, I think that there are a number of people in Africa on tediously slow (14,4 or less) dial-up connections who might object to being told that they don't count for much. The last time I was in Africa (late 2001) most of the hardware was at least six years old and the software wasn't much more recent since it was all Western hand-me-downs and no one is going to download Mozilla over a 14,4 or 28,8 connection. Not that you necessarily *need* to worry about users in Africa, but it always comes back to the basic rule of good design -- know your audience and design accordingly. jon Dirk Koopman wrote: snip Seconded. And I would add that Netscrape 3 / IE 3 users don't count for much either, anymore. snip -- jon reades fulcrum analytics t: 0870.366.9338 m: 0797.698.7392 f: 0870.888.8880 lower ground floor 2 sheraton street london w1f 8bh
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
On 2 Apr 2003, Dirk Koopman wrote: On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 10:16, Dave Cross wrote: Just need to work out why sendmail isn't automatically sending them at the moment. service sendmail restart But, it would be simpler and better to reboot the machine. You have just replaced the most fundamental library in the system. In order to get the benefits of any changes for *all* programs - you must reboot. This is not actually true. The change will affect all new processes, and frankly the old libc was probably fine. Look in /proc/*/maps if you don't believe me. S. -- Shevekhttp://www.anarres.org/ I am the Borg. http://design.anarres.org/
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 10:57, Lusercop wrote: The original sendmail used to fork() to handle the various different SMTP commands, (which is why pipelining is an extension to SMTP, and why real RFC821 SMTP *MUST* be lock-step). I don't believe that anything such as this has been done for a very long time, though. They may well fire off auxiliary helpers, of course for pipe deliveries or even for actual local deliveries via, for example mail.local or procmail. Sorry but: have you ever *watched* sendmail send stuff? It forks itself (as does exim BTW). Anyway, getting back to the original point. If this were indeed the case, then there are two issues with Dirk's original post: 1) the inodes will still exist (they will exist until both their link count and their reference count have gone to 0). The unlink() call only decrements the former. :-) I actually have no idea why daemons fail in the case that 'their' libc libraries get replaced. All I *do* know is that the symptoms described occur. *And* that the cure is to restart the daemons or (preferably) reboot. I suspect it may be to do with come kind of magic in ELF to cope with copy on write and address virtualising. 2) if this were indeed the case, then I believe that the sendmail -q would also have failed. New process. It uses new versions of libraries. It is effectively restarting the daemon (but just for the queue). Just reboot, for (your personal) God's sake! Just what is it with people? What's wrong with rebooting? Is this some new crime? Is David Blunkett involved??? Sheesh! Dirk -- Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Peter Haworth wrote: On 02 Apr 2003 10:07:11 +0100, Dirk Koopman wrote: Bear in mind that most MTAs fork to handle some of the process, if any of the libraries that is currently using have disappeared (they have been erased and replacements with different inode nos added), then forks will fail. I can't believe this is true. It isn't. The old inode is still there until all processes close the file. Read /proc/*/maps, the linker will annotate the old files as (deleted) and add version numbers to the mmap()'d space for the new copies. S. -- Shevekhttp://www.anarres.org/ I am the Borg. http://design.anarres.org/
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 12:23:37PM +0100, Andy Wardley wrote: Jon Reades wrote: To be a little nit-picky, I think that there are a number of people in Africa on tediously slow (14,4 or less) dial-up connections who might object to being told that they don't count for much. Hospitals and schools, too. Try finding a screen resolution greater than 640x480 in an NHS hospital and you'll be lucky. This is why I laughed so much when an experienced web designer showed me a site selling medical products targetted at NHS hospitals which required IE6, 1024x768 screen resolution and Flash 6. Would surprise me if the people making the buying decisions had a flash pc. (Thinks back to when boss got 3 grand pc to surf and read email). That's no excuse mind you...
Re: The joys of web development
Jon Reades wrote: To be a little nit-picky, I think that there are a number of people in Africa on tediously slow (14,4 or less) dial-up connections who might object to being told that they don't count for much. The last time I was in Africa (late 2001) most of the hardware was at least six years old and the software wasn't much more recent since it was all Western hand-me-downs and no one is going to download Mozilla over a 14,4 or 28,8 connection. Not that you necessarily *need* to worry about users in Africa, but it always comes back to the basic rule of good design -- know your audience and design accordingly. Yes, but in fact it is much easier to target moz/ie5+ and degrade gracefully to old platforms than it is to do the same if you need to support nn4. So long as you don't rely on JavaScript for your site to work, properly structured (X)HTML will be perfectly readable on older stuff *and* it'll burn much less bandwidth. -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 12:23:37PM +0100, Andy Wardley said: Jon Reades wrote: To be a little nit-picky, I think that there are a number of people in Africa on tediously slow (14,4 or less) dial-up connections who might object to being told that they don't count for much. Hospitals and schools, too. And PDAs, WebTV, mobile browsers, visually imparied browsers etc etc. I know that in the worst case in this particular example was that somepeople might get a two ways to hit submit but I've seen far worse browser fascism - adding features which only work in a subset of browsers and prevent other browsers from working despite the features being non-essential eye candy that can actually be kind of annoying (for example, I find 'auto-submit-on-change' really irritating). It's kind of like people whose modules have 'use warnings;' as the sole impediment to working on 5.6 Simon
Re: RegEx for UK Postal Codes
Sorry everyone, I should remember never to post regexes to a list
without testing them first. Spent a little time in Q/A and discovered
that this original one passed through all kinds of rubbish.
Jon Reades wrote:
snip
m/
[A-PR-UWYZ]
(?:
[0-9](?:[0-9]|A-HJKS-UW])?
|
[A-HK-Y][0-9](?:[0-9]|[ABEHMNPRVWXY])?
)
\s
\d[ABD-HJLNP-UW-Z]{2}
/x
A better version (I'm still open to optimisations since I know that this
could be improved, I'm just not sure how) would be:
m/
^[A-PR-UWYZ](?![IJZ]) # first position
(?:
\d(?![IL-RVX-Z]) # case 1: 2nd position (e.g. A1)
[\dA-HJKS-UW]? # case 1: 3rd position (e.g. A1A, A11)
|
[A-HK-Y] # case 2: 2nd position
\d(?![CDFHIJKLOQSTUZ]) # case 2: 3rd position (e.g. SW1)
[\dABEHMNPRVWXY]? # case 2: 4th position (e.g. SW10, SW1W)
)
\s+
\d[ABD-HJLNP-UW-Z]{2}
/ix
jon
--
jon reades
fulcrum analytics
t: 0870.366.9338
m: 0797.698.7392
f: 0870.888.8880
lower ground floor
2 sheraton street
london w1f 8bh
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 12:10:51PM +0200, Robin Berjon wrote: After eliminating bots and everything under 0.1%, my logs give me Gecko+KHTML at 17% and IE5+ at 83%. The rest doesn't exist. This means you can reasonably start thinking about XHTML 1.1 Strict with some good CSS (as eg w3.org). But surely that's because the elite lynx and w3m[*] users (a) d/load only the index.html (not the 75 images) then (b) leave, vowing never to come back to a site that doesn't work. It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy ... try using e.g. http://www.pcworld.co.uk/ in anything except IE for a taster: - lynx and w3m: no chance - NS7: links don't work then crashes - Moz1.2: hangs - Konqueror: tabbed areas aren't visible then the tabs disappear Class act -- I won't be back there again. So in their logs everything except IE doesn't exist :-( [*] insert non-IE browser of choice -- Chris Benson
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Chris Benson wrote: On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 12:10:51PM +0200, Robin Berjon wrote: After eliminating bots and everything under 0.1%, my logs give me Gecko+KHTML at 17% and IE5+ at 83%. The rest doesn't exist. This means you can reasonably start thinking about XHTML 1.1 Strict with some good CSS (as eg w3.org). But surely that's because the elite lynx and w3m[*] users (a) d/load only the index.html (not the 75 images) then (b) leave, vowing never to come back to a site that doesn't work. It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy ... try using e.g. http://www.pcworld.co.uk/ in anything except IE for a taster: - lynx and w3m: no chance - NS7: links don't work then crashes - Moz1.2: hangs - Konqueror: tabbed areas aren't visible then the tabs disappear Class act -- I won't be back there again. So in their logs everything except IE doesn't exist :-( netscape 4.7 works just. [*] insert non-IE browser of choice -- Bob Walker http://www.randomness.org.uk/ To what accuracy do we know the number of the beast?
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 12:52:47PM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote: On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 12:23:37PM +0100, Andy Wardley said: Jon Reades wrote: To be a little nit-picky, I think that there are a number of people in Africa on tediously slow (14,4 or less) dial-up connections who might object to being told that they don't count for much. Hospitals and schools, too. And PDAs, WebTV, mobile browsers, visually imparied browsers etc etc. Isn't that the reason why we're supposed to be using the funky new features? That PDAs, accessible browsers and the like have a much better chance of displaying XHTML strict, table-less content than something that uses every nasty javascript/HTML trick in the book to be backwards compatible for the old 2% of browsers that don't grok XHTML/CSS? Not to mention that the new style content tends to be smaller, to the benefit of those on GSM or modems. Chris.
Re: The joys of web development
Chris Benson wrote: On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 12:10:51PM +0200, Robin Berjon wrote: After eliminating bots and everything under 0.1%, my logs give me Gecko+KHTML at 17% and IE5+ at 83%. The rest doesn't exist. This means you can reasonably start thinking about XHTML 1.1 Strict with some good CSS (as eg w3.org). But surely that's because the elite lynx and w3m[*] users (a) d/load only the index.html (not the 75 images) then (b) leave, vowing never to come back to a site that doesn't work. No. The sites I get those stats for work on all sorts of browsers. It is just so that people don't use them in any significant manner. Surprisingly, there are 4% wget users (but I counted that as a bot). http://www.pcworld.co.uk/ Looking at the code, it is *very*very*very* far removed from the coding style that I am advocating. -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 13:12, Chris Benson wrote: It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy ... try using e.g. http://www.pcworld.co.uk/ in anything except IE for a taster: - lynx and w3m: no chance - NS7: links don't work then crashes - Moz1.2: hangs - Konqueror: tabbed areas aren't visible then the tabs disappear galeon on RH8.0 seems to work adequately. -- Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 01:14:41PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Isn't that the reason why we're supposed to be using the funky new features? Table-less, yes. Complicated layouts which rely on pixel perfect alignment and nasty layered menus and popups or over reliance on javascript, no. Is the reaosn why places like Argos.co.uk b0rk popup pages saying Your browser is not supported, go away, we're not even going to let you try looking at stuff because they could somehow be legally liable if something goes wrong during a transaction or something (or a browser renders a price wrongly) or just because they're clueless assh0l3s? Simon -- it's a short link to a dead king
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 02:30:56PM +0200, Robin Berjon wrote: Chris Benson wrote: http://www.pcworld.co.uk/ I didn't mean to associcate you with *that* site! :-) Looking at the code, it is *very*very*very* far removed from the coding style that I am advocating. I don't think anyone could advocate that site (with a straight face) could they? -- Chris Benson
Re: The joys of web development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip And PDAs, WebTV, mobile browsers, visually imparied browsers etc etc. Isn't that the reason why we're supposed to be using the funky new features? That PDAs, accessible browsers and the like have a much better chance of displaying XHTML strict, table-less content than something that uses every nasty javascript/HTML trick in the book to be backwards compatible for the old 2% of browsers that don't grok XHTML/CSS? snip Personally (and to tie this in with an earlier thread) that's why I use Mason -- autohandlers and dhandlers are perfect for wrapping your content in a browser-appropriate format without needing to publish umpteen different versions of the site. Haven't managed to find the time to develop a PDA/Phone-friendly version, but lynx looks pretty nice for the most on www.fulcrumanalytics.com methinks. jon -- jon reades fulcrum analytics t: 0870.366.9338 m: 0797.698.7392 f: 0870.888.8880 lower ground floor 2 sheraton street london w1f 8bh
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 01:14:03PM +0100, Bob Walker wrote: netscape 4.7 works just. Digs out only nn4.x I have left:- Netscape® Communicator 4.78 (Solaris) Displays the banner then about three columns of menus on top of each other in the middle of the screen then display a torrent of popups saying 1 exceeds the number of menu layers when I move the cursor over the overlapping menus. Selecting More Info from one of the items at the bottom of the page closes the browser. I would've said crashes, but there was no error message: cbblade:~/work/oracle/11i $ netscape http://www.pcworld.co.uk/ cbblade:~/work/oracle/11i $ Like I said: Class Act :-) -- Chris Benson
Re: The joys of web development
Chris Benson wrote: On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 02:30:56PM +0200, Robin Berjon wrote: I didn't mean to associcate you with *that* site! :-) Thanks :) Looking at the code, it is *very*very*very* far removed from the coding style that I am advocating. I don't think anyone could advocate that site (with a straight face) could they? You appear to have never met anyone from Macromedia. -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
The joys of CPAN
Can anyone tell me why I regularly get the error message Can't locate bytes.pm in @INC (@INC contains: ... when trying to install modules from CPAN, during the 'make test' phase ? Regards, Rhys.
Re: The joys of CPAN
Rhys Hopkins wrote: Can anyone tell me why I regularly get the error message Can't locate bytes.pm in @INC (@INC contains: ... when trying to install modules from CPAN, during the 'make test' phase ? Is it possible that you are dealing with modules that use bytes but have an old version of Perl? -- Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Research Engineer, Expwayhttp://expway.fr/ 7FC0 6F5F D864 EFB8 08CE 8E74 58E6 D5DB 4889 2488
Re: The joys of CPAN
Robin Berjon wrote: Rhys Hopkins wrote: Can anyone tell me why I regularly get the error message Can't locate bytes.pm in @INC (@INC contains: ... when trying to install modules from CPAN, during the 'make test' phase ? Is it possible that you are dealing with modules that use bytes but have an old version of Perl? I am afraid it is all too possible. I am using perl 5.005_03 What is this use bytes business all about ? I can't find it in the camel book. ( ...and why do I get the feeling there is a large amount of work for me behind this seemingly innocuous message ? )
Re: The joys of web development
Chris Benson wrote: snip A nice touch is the Please click here if you are visually disabled in blue-on-blue on the _second_ screen :-) (Except I can't get off the first screen at the moment ... ) Then you must have missed the epilepsy-inducing Please wait. Pity. The truly clever part is that it is assumed that visually disabled means can't read the small type that designers like to use and not I need text-to-speech software since I am actually blind. Unless text-to-speech software has improved dramatically in its ability to parse anything except basic HTML since my last exposure to it, then something like Jaws would roll over dead on the impaired part of the site. jon -- jon reades fulcrum analytics t: 0870.366.9338 m: 0797.698.7392 f: 0870.888.8880 lower ground floor 2 sheraton street london w1f 8bh
Re: The joys of CPAN
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 04:14:26PM +0100, Nicholas Clark said: On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 07:06:41AM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: Upgrade your Perl to something introduced within the last two years. This may not be a great time for anyone with a lengthy upgrade process to start: 5.6.0 sucks 5.6.1 is effectively unmaintained 5.8.0 is nice but 5.8.1 should be out soon. Exactly my point. Lots of people I know didn't upgrade to 5.6.x for suckiness reasons (percieved or otherwise) and won't upgrade to a .0 or a .1 release in production environments. Sad as it may be but saying Upgrade to something in the last 2 years just isn't realistic, IMO. -- it's a short link to a dead king
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Jon Reades wrote: Unless text-to-speech software has improved dramatically in its ability to parse anything except basic HTML since my last exposure to it, then something like Jaws would roll over dead on the impaired part of the site. http://restal.sunderland.ac.uk/ This is 'specially bad for an academic institution since IIRC UK Universities are legally required to adhere to the W3C WAI guidelines (priority 1 and 2) under the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act 2001. I should really drop them a friendly line to point that out, I guess. Website accessability to the disabled is one of my little pet rants, but I won't bore you lot with it. You're all much better at ranting than I am. -- matt jones who's the daddy?
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 07:49:27AM -0800, jonah wrote: Website accessability to the disabled is one of my little pet rants, but I won't bore you lot with it. You're all much better at ranting than I am. *waves sushi around until Marna notices* Kitty
Re: IPC and buffering wierdness...
Shevek sent the following bits through the ether: So Apache must be buffering it This may be of use: http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/porting.html#NPH__Non_Parsed_Headers__scripts Leon ps the mod_perl guide really is quite good -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ scribot.http://www.scribot.com/ ... SYSTEM ERROR: press F13 to continue...
Re: IPC and buffering wierdness...
On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 16:04, Shevek wrote: So Apache must be buffering it. This isn't really a suprise. mod_cgi has to do certain things to the headers anyway and it might need access to the body of the data to do that. That sortof makes sense except if you use a single perl proggie in this form mod_cgi most definatly does not buffer. Surely the existance of the second program should be completely invisible to mod_cgi?
Re: [OT] Broken sendmail
On Wednesday 02 Apr 2003 11:43 am, Dirk Koopman wrote: I actually have no idea why daemons fail in the case that 'their' libc libraries get replaced. All I *do* know is that the symptoms described occur. *And* that the cure is to restart the daemons or (preferably) reboot. Of course, you'd think that were so. However, I didn't notice MySQL had broken until I had rebooted, and I found it wasn't there anymore. I checked my logs for the times of installation and rebooting, so there's no mistake: the order is upgrade glibc, shutdown, reboot, mysql fails and rpm useless. It seems daft that upgrading from glibc 2.3.1-6 to 2.3.1-10 should break things so seriously, but what ever was wrong in my case, rebooting did not sort it out. Nick
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 01:14:41PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not to mention that the new style content tends to be smaller, to the benefit of those on GSM or modems. And bean counters who now don't have to buy as fat pipes (or BOFHs who want more bandwidth for their quake packets) Nicholas Clark
Re: [OT] ADSL
I'll fly the flag for my current employer, Netscalibur (formerly Dircon). We've switched our ADSL pipe from a 34M bearer to a 155M and are now getting very nice latency numbers (aside from the odd SDH problem like last night) of around 16ms to the Netscalibur side of the pipe. For a long term comparison (latency only) look at http://www.codeburst.net/ukisp-rtt I believe our SOHO (wires-only) offering is 29/month. Just think, you can help pay the salary of several london-pm readers and contributors as well. Even better, you can hassle them on the list when there's a problem. - Mark On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 10:47 AM, Juliet Kemp wrote: On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 12:31:33PM +0100, Jon Reades wrote: Roger Burton West wrote: snip Finally, are there any ADSL suppliers to avoid, or that are wonderful. [3] snip ...you'll probably want to steer clear of BT... I can back that up - our BT broadband installation (paid for by partner's work when he started working from home, they insisted on BT on the noone ever got fired for buying IBM basis) took a month a half to sort out. Initial appointment required a 3-week wait; engineer then showed up with the wrong bits, which turned out to be because they had the wrong plan booked on their system. Engineer did not, of course, have *right* bits in van thus had to go away again. Rebooking, it transpired, required phoning up cancelling, then *waiting 24 hrs* and phoning again. Because otherwise the system would get confused think that the rebooking needed cancelling as well (riiight). Except we continued not to hear anything back from them, it eventually transpired that it wasn't 24hrs you needed to wait, it was 48hrs. Cue another couple of weeks waiting for an engineer appt... *And* then they gave us the wrong username on the piece of paper, that took about an hour on the phone to sort out. Having said that, only one connection outage since, touch wood. But would *not* recommend them at all. Juliet
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 07:49:27AM -0800, jonah wrote: On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Jon Reades wrote: Unless text-to-speech software has improved dramatically in its ability to parse anything except basic HTML since my last exposure to it, then something like Jaws would roll over dead on the impaired part of the site. http://restal.sunderland.ac.uk/ This is 'specially bad for an academic institution since IIRC UK Universities are legally required to adhere to the W3C WAI guidelines (priority 1 and 2) under the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act 2001. I should really drop them a friendly line to point that out, I guess. Yup. I actually cheated. Every time some department pays zillions for one of these crack-fueled-migraine-inducing affairs, the in-house team come along, extract all the content (which usually came from them in the first place before 99% was deleted as not zoomin' and happenin'-enough) and do a completely HTML version (which also (I believe) uses a BBC-written-and-maintained Perl script to change font sizes and colours on user-request). This allows Sunderland to maintain its status as one of the most minority-supportive-inclusive-insert your cuddly buzzword here -friendly new Unis. :-) and saves millions in legal fees and fines. Unfortunately departments pay 00s of 000s for the MacroMedia ... and nothing for the service that keeps the lawyers from the door! The non-migraine version of the prospectus is at http://restal.sunderland.ac.uk/_html2/index.cfm (which is still blue-on-blue: Hrmph!) but in Lynx the Uni home page starts: University of Sunderland - UK (p1 of 4) Banner With University of Sunderland logo Arrow pointing to Visually Impaired? Visually impaired? Your opportunity to change your font size, colours, and contrast. With the above a link to http://restal.sunderland.ac.uk/_html/index.cfm Which is good. (Same content as /_html2/, different stylesheet ??). Website accessability to the disabled is one of my little pet rants, but I won't bore you lot with it. You're all much better at ranting than I am. :-) This last year I've noticed I have a lot more trouble reading small print, not usually on-screen because it's back lit, but low-contrast printed material. I can see that before long I'll be using some of the accessability features of new browsers (It's one of the reasons I like Lynx -- hard to change the font/colours of an xterm :-) and I'm still 50! -- Chris Benson
Re: The joys of web development
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 07:49:27AM -0800, jonah wrote: On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Jon Reades wrote: Unless text-to-speech software has improved dramatically in its ability to parse anything except basic HTML since my last exposure to it, then something like Jaws would roll over dead on the impaired part of the site. http://restal.sunderland.ac.uk/ This is 'specially bad for an academic institution since IIRC UK Universities are legally required to adhere to the W3C WAI guidelines (priority 1 and 2) under the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act 2001. I only have second hand knowledge of Senda, but I've never heard that before. I believe the Act expects institutions to provide acceptable alternatives for inaccessible content but does not enforce any particular requirements. I also gather that the enforcers of the act hope to work with institutions that provide non-compliant content rather than instigating legal action. I'd be very interested to see anything that suggests otherwise. The important point is that a reasonable alternative doesn't have to be a direct substitute - it just has to convey the same message. Website accessability to the disabled is one of my little pet rants, but I won't bore you lot with it. Indeed, but it worries me that anything important (be it accessibility, or anything else) can suddenly become perceived as so important after having been ignored for years. I encounter people overreacting to Senda, focusing on it to an extent where other important measures of quality get too little attention. I like working with people who appreciate my HTML pedantry, though. ;-) It doesn't help that the certain assistive software products support W3C standards in ways that make Netscape 4 and IE 5 seem like saints. You're all much better at ranting than I am. I've tried to restrain myself. Do I win a prize? Tom
Re: The joys of CPAN
Rhys == Rhys Hopkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Rhys Can anyone tell me why I regularly get the error message Rhys Can't locate bytes.pm in @INC (@INC contains: ... Rhys when trying to install modules from CPAN, during the 'make test' phase ? Because some part of the code said use bytes, and you don't have it? I think that was introduced in 5.6, so you are probably running 5.5. Upgrade your Perl to something introduced within the last two years. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: The joys of CPAN
On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 07:06:41AM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: Rhys == Rhys Hopkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Rhys Can anyone tell me why I regularly get the error message Rhys Can't locate bytes.pm in @INC (@INC contains: ... Rhys when trying to install modules from CPAN, during the 'make test' phase ? Because some part of the code said use bytes, and you don't have it? I think that was introduced in 5.6, so you are probably running 5.5. If this is so the modules are buggy for not specify the minimum perl version in their Makefile.PLs Doesn't solve the problem directly, but does mean that the modules' authors should be made aware of this bug, to stop others having the same problem. Nicholas Clark
