Re: # 1 lute question
James, I hope this is neither silly nor cute, but there is also the question of the size of doors and people at the time. In 1947, at the age of twelve, I spent a summer at a farm in England owned by a schoolgirl friend of my mother. The house was over 400 years old and my room was on the second floor in the back. I had to duck my head to go through the doorway, and I wasn't exceptionally tall for my age. (Nor am I now, a normal 5'10" (178cm)). Perhaps it was just the reach of the arms to tune the farther pegs, or the convenience of passing through spaces. Although I could certainly agree with the balance proposal. (Vignette, my hostess had a dining room table that glowed, and she was often asked how to make a table look that way. Her answer was "start with good wood, then oil it once a week for 400 years".). Best, Jon > Hi James: > > I view it as an issue of balance. The peg box loaded is probably the single > most weighty portion of the Lute. Bent back as it is helps to distribute > the weight more toward the center of the instrument. > Hi Vance, > > Thanks, yours is the only serious reply so far; but I do think "So it will > fit in the case" is kinda cute. We might think it a silly (not stupid, as > Bruno suggests) question, but if anyone expresses any curiosity about the lute, I > think it's good p.r. to try to be polite and/or funny when replying. If you > give a sarcastic answer, then you can guarantee that's what they will retain. > Perhaps some luthiers have some ideas? > > Sincerely, > > James > > -- > >
Re: # 2 lute question
James, Already put one up on the topic, but reading your original question makes me think again. On other instruments with sound holes that I've made I've always cut my signature bird (a flying bird, sort a a combination that could be a hawk, falcon or seagull - and always a different one to fit the instrument). But as I'm not sure as to the effect of the hole on the sound I always try to keep the area of the cut out the same as the standard sound hole (with or without rosette). My gut feeling is that there is little sound value to the shape of the hole, I think it isn't a "projector" of the sound but a "releaser" of pressure that could deaden the sound board (and I correct myself on the shape, I think the "f" holes of the violin family may be because of the comparitively longer shape in contrast to the width). In my last on the topic I commented on the access holes in the back of the harp, not entirely true. The Paraguayan harp has a back like a lute, and the access hole in the bottom. No one will ever build a harp without an access hole, you couldn't string the damned thing. And I'm sure I don't have the money to build a lute without a sound hole of any sort, it might be a clunker. So we have to go with the "old boys" who built them and assume the sound hole is necessary to keep the box from being a closed system, but not a "projector" of the sound. Best, Jon Subject: Re: # 2 lute question > Hello all, > > Stop me if this is too idiotic. :) The second most asked question is: "How > does the carved rosette affect the tone"? I think they think there may be a > purpose for it beyond its obvious ornamental effect. People are simply drawn > to notice the differences between the lute and guitar; but they all find the > lute very beautiful. They're just intrigued. Maybe there's no definitive > answers to these questions, but the 'rosette' one is interesting. Anyone ever > play a lute with just a sound hole, no rosette? > > Sincerely, > > James > > -- > >
Re: Size of the lute world
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > the fact remains that within 19 years after the appearance of > the Perrine book, Campion stated that the lute was done for. That is a > fairly powerful statement The translated excerpt in your article says the lute has declined (or is in decline, or is declining) which is not the same thing; also it seems to say that the theorbo and guitar are doing well. It is not a model of clarity. > and we really have only one way to verify it. How > many lute books in tablature were printed for general consumption between > 1697 and 1716? I'd think you'd want to know about after 1716. > And I would suggest that manuscripts that can be dated to that time period > are not a reliable measure of the popularity of the instrument. A > manuscript would indicate a single owner, or a succession of a single > owners over time. A printed book indicates an existing market. Maybe. This opens up a whole new subject, and a fascinating one. It's clear enough that publication indicates a perceived market (or, less likely, that the musician or patron had money to burn), but it is not always true that lack of publication shows the absence of a market. I'm sure that a musician as famous as Weiss could have sold published editions, since less famous lutenists did, but outside of one piece in Telemann's Getreue Music-Meister, he never did. Why not? Maybe the answer can be found in Vivaldi, the most famous musician of the late baroque, who stopped publishing his music about 1730 (he had a dozen or so opus numbers out by 1730) because he could make more money selling manuscripts. This is much like a famous graphic artist selling one-of-a-kind or limited-edition works instead of publishing or mass-producing them. Rarity drives up the price. And of course, some famous players (as late as Paganini) wanted to keep their music to themselves, regarding it as a trade secret. This is all by way of question rather than answer. Anyway, we can be making a mistake if evaluate the economics of music dissemination in other times with the assumptions of our own time. I don't know, BTW, what the numbers of lute manuscripts and publications in 18th-century France or elsewhere were. I do know that if Campion was prophesying the end of the lute, he'd be proven right by about 1800. HP
Re: Something useful and nice for our newbies
Roman Turovsky at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> I think - as many do - that it is a good idea to start lute playing >> by a lute in renaissance tuning. > I disagree emphatically. Weiss and Hagen didn't, and look where it took > them. Well, they're both dead. I can't say for sure they'd still be around if they'd started in renaissance tuning, but who knows? And Shostakovich might have lasted a lot longer if he'd drunk more and smoked less. I've always suspected that he smoked so much because he didn't start in renaissance tuning, but who knows? Very truly yours, Whatsisname
Re: Size of the lute world
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The real value of this painting is of course the music, if anyone can > identify it. Now let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this is the > only drawing in existence showing a lute player playing. It would be a > smashing proof that lute player never played from tablature, but from pitch > notation :-) And, of course, make liars of Perrine and Campion.
Re: # 2 lute question
Kenneth, I think your lute makers are right, the small bars are not enough to make a difference in the overall resonation. A small vignette, on the harp list we have seen beginners who (without benefit of instruction, or even a picture) play the harp backwards, as they want to aim the "sound holes" to the audience. There are no sound holes on harps, there are holes in the back to allow access to change the strings if they break. As all the bridged instruments have sound holes, be they "f"s or rosettes, I think that they may be necessary, but the slight stiffening of the board around the rosette shouldn't have any noticable effect. On my psaltery, my mountain dulcimer, and my bowed psaltery I cut the fancy hole directly into the soundboard with no rosette, on the "lute" kit I had precut round holes and made rosettes to fit with a small circular backing. No way it stiffens the sound board. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 10:28 PM Subject: Re: # 2 lute question > In a message dated 12/9/03 8:56:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > "How > > does the carved rosette affect the tone"? > > Several lute makers have mentioned to me that it does not affect the tone. > Certainly, I have not noticed the difference between baroque guitars with and > without ornamental roses, for example. > > However, I would suspect that there IS a slight difference, even an > improvement, in tone with a carved rosette since it requires some small bars to be > glued underneath the super thin rosette part of the lute's soundboard which must > affect the sound. > > Kenneth > > -- > >
Re: # 2 lute question
Kenneth, The rosette would have an effect on the sound of the lute, simply by it's size. The larger the openning, the more it lowers the air space resonance, and the smaller the opening the higher the air space resonance. That's why one sees three rosettes on therobos as they wanted to emphasize the bass. I'm sure the historic lute builders were intuitively aware of this. You can also observe this on guitars in relation to lutes. Guitars are much more fundamental sounding, and lutes are more nasal sounding, thus emphasizing the higher spectrum. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:28 PM Subject: Re: # 2 lute question > In a message dated 12/9/03 8:56:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > "How > > does the carved rosette affect the tone"? > > Several lute makers have mentioned to me that it does not affect the tone. > Certainly, I have not noticed the difference between baroque guitars with and > without ornamental roses, for example. > > However, I would suspect that there IS a slight difference, even an > improvement, in tone with a carved rosette since it requires some small bars to be > glued underneath the super thin rosette part of the lute's soundboard which must > affect the sound. > > Kenneth > > --
Re: Semantics (was State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world))
Doc and Roman, I haven't seen the original, and am not going to search for it as Lute List stuff comes to me in two places (a note to all on that at the end of this). But reading the two comments it would seem that there is a semantic problem. The Western world spent years settling on a set of scales which have finally come down to two in common modern usage (with some exceptions, the Simon and Garfunkel "Scarborough Fair" is Dorian rather than the Aolian that is "relative minor" of the "Do-Re-Mi" tonic). >From the Middle Ages on the society was heavily Church centered, and that was the Christian Church. So much of the development of the music (from unison through polyphony) was centered on sacred music. That was where the money was (better said, that was where a composer could find a patron to support him). The Pagan music of the Norse is yet preserved in folk tunes, and I have a collection for harp of those, but the scales are basically the western modes. The Islamic and Judaic of the Middle East are a different form, using a more flexible sliding scale, the sounds of the Eastern European Judaic music are a bit of a combination of each. The Oriental a whole 'nother thing. And the African entirely missed the boat of polyphony and harmony, but instead made a very interesting trip into polyrythym. And that fascinates me. I can sing a downward 11th, but to beat the sounds of a polyrythym is beyond me (although I can appreciate it when I hear it). So it is not a matter of which is best, or more advanced. It is a matter of what our ears are trained to hear at an early age (and what we learn in our later years). In the west the development of music was done both in the countryside and in the church, but as the church was a primary influence in the society at the time much of it was done there. It is not Christian theology that made the music, it is the Christian orientation of the society that led the composers to make music for the church. I have mentioned that I play the psaltery, the Psalters were hymnbooks specific to the Protestant Christians who revolted against the Roman Catholic liturgy for its use of "modern fancy music". The words to the music had to be taken directly from the scriptures (and Mat, don't correct me too hard on this, it is meant to be brief). Memorable has several meanings. Is it historically memorable? Or memorable to me? To be historically memorable it has to have a good base of listeners and players, and without people like this lute list the lute music of the Renaissance would be forgotten. Who knows what the lyre player played when accompanying Homer, the Greek tetra chord is only guessed at (and as Homer himself wasn't written down until about 400 years after his death, who knows what he really said). Pardon the diatribe, but the topic isn't new to me. I've seen it on the harp list as well. Music is an expression by people, and as such also by a people. And in that expression they may celebrate their religion, or just their joy in living. It matters not which, if the music is good then it is memorable - as long as there is a people to enjoy that particular music. Best, Jon > > So any music not rooted in Christian semantics (like MacOSX rooted in > > Unix) > > is doomed to being not quite that memorable (see Pagan, Islamic, Judaic > > etc., and don't hold you breath for a Ramadan oratorio). > > I find this very strange, Roman - in fact I don't find it true at all. > Perhaps it is a matter of taste, or a matter of being open to other > cultures and points of view, or simply a matter of exposure. For me > music with the quality you describe is music that comes, for lack of a > better description, directly from "the source" and expresses that. I > don't want to accuse you of being closed, narrow-minded or > undemocratic! - and I have to admit that I would rather listen to > J.S.B. than anything else, most of the time, but the trio sonatas or > the Italian Concerto more than the sacred music (there are some very > moving corales, though). Maybe you don't get to hear the best stuff > from other cultures. I saw a program about the rebirth of Cambodian > traditional dancing, and the music was absolutely sublime. Developing > different ears is well worth the effort. > > Doc > > > >
Re: Size of the lute world
At 01:24 PM 12/10/2003 +0900, Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >here is one picture you may not have seen before: > > > >http://www.orphee.com/lute/lute-player.jpg > > > >I cna just imagine the sort of conclusions that can be made of it. > >I love it! Left handed no less. The picture is not reversed because >the music is the right way. Also the script of the names of the engraver. This is supposed to ve after some painting. Any one knows the original? > I can just imagine the artist telling the >model how to place his fingers. I would think the model is a she. The real value of this painting is of course the music, if anyone can identify it. Now let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this is the only drawing in existence showing a lute player playing. It would be a smashing proof that lute player never played from tablature, but from pitch notation :-) > It may take me a while to incorporate >this new hand position. :-) Only advisable if you have good health insurance. BTW, the fact that it is left handed would suggest that the model is the artist herself, looking in a mirror. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Size of the lute world
In a message dated 12/9/03 11:26:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I love it! Left handed no less. The picture is not reversed because > the music is the right way. I can just imagine the artist telling the > model how to place his fingers. It may take me a while to incorporate > this new hand position. :-) Dear Ed: It is common that print artists will render their models from life, only to have the images reversed when printed from a plate. The music on the other hand WOULD have to read correctly to the viewer, so the artist would be careful to engrave that in mirror image on the original plate. Kenneth --
Re: Size of the lute world
>here is one picture you may not have seen before: > >http://www.orphee.com/lute/lute-player.jpg > >I cna just imagine the sort of conclusions that can be made of it. I love it! Left handed no less. The picture is not reversed because the music is the right way. I can just imagine the artist telling the model how to place his fingers. It may take me a while to incorporate this new hand position. :-) -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: # 2 lute question
In a message dated 12/9/03 8:56:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > "How > does the carved rosette affect the tone"? Several lute makers have mentioned to me that it does not affect the tone. Certainly, I have not noticed the difference between baroque guitars with and without ornamental roses, for example. However, I would suspect that there IS a slight difference, even an improvement, in tone with a carved rosette since it requires some small bars to be glued underneath the super thin rosette part of the lute's soundboard which must affect the sound. Kenneth --
Re: # 1 lute question
Actually, James, in all seriousness I've noticed that it is much easier to tune and keep the tuning stable in lutes with bent back pegboxes than lutes with extended pegboxes and certainly more than baroque and renaissance guitars and vihuelas. Kenneth --
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance wrote, How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to choosing the Jewish faith of her husband? MT wrote, I really think it's none of your business. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:55 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to > choosing the Jewish faith of her husband? > > Vance Wood. > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > "arielabramovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:27 PM > Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > > > > My sister and brother in law are both Jewish. My remark was not directed > > towards any specific race, and I think in the context that it was > delivered > > this is obvious. But those who choose to make an issue about this, have > > every freedom. > > However I've noticed that some of these individuals are the very > one's > > crying for a stop to this insanity, but when shown there own nose in a > > mirror can't see it. > > In this case it was directed at an individual who sought to impose his > way > > of thinking upon me, not an equal exchange of ideas and philosophy, only > > through strong handed tactics, insulting my ignorance, standing in the > > guitar and lute world, criminalizing me, and so on. I responded with > > absurdities. > > If he were a universal monarch, I have no doubt, he would have chosen > > to wipe me off the face of the earth for my belief's, because they were > > different then his. > >In the future, I will do my best to deliver any and all, ill intent, > > insults, bad wishes, and hypocrisy, In the mannerly way in which one can > > attain the most devastating effect. A skill I have now acquired by > > observing the best of the best on this list. > > Michael Thames > > Luthier > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames > > - Original Message - > > From: "arielabramovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Vance Wood" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:20 PM > > Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > > > > > > > Dear Vance, > > > regardless of whether I find the whole thing > > (argument) > > > to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also > > > exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the > > context > > > the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning. > > > I belong to the (according to your thinking structure, which in this > case- > > > and for my taste- tends to be a bit simplistic) Liberal/Socialist' > sector, > > > and I believe that a conservative is actually a conservative, and not > > > necessary a Nazi (can sometimes be both, plus many other things). > > > Generalizations aren't always a very good idea. > > > I don't think anyone should be consider a victim in this case, and I > don't > > > really believe that the simple use of the word nazi determines the limit > > > between the acceptable or not. > > > ATB, > > > A > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Michael: Your ability to see only what you want to see, and understand what you want to understand is a true source of amazement. Vance Wood What is the purpose of continuing this Vance, weren't you the voice of reason we all looked to. Where is Dudly Do right when we need him? Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:41 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > Michael: > > Your ability to see only what you want to see, and understand what you want > to understand is a true source of amazement. > > Vance Wood. > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:02 PM > Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > > > > Vance wrote, > > conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the > tag > > Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not > to > > stoop to that level > > > >MT wrote, > >Vance your hypocrisy knows no bounds! > > Michael Thames > > Luthier > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames > > - Original Message - > > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:17 PM > > Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > > > > > > > Dear Roman: > > > > > > I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles this term has come to > mean > > as > > > you have described, in other circles, especially where there is a Jewish > > > back ground haunted by memories of the holocaust, you and Michael are > > > totally off base. I can think of no four letter word, invective or > insult > > > that would prick the heart of an individual whose family was decimated > by > > > the horrors of WWII and the holocaust than to be referred to as a Nazi. > > > > > > To prove a point go out into the street and use the work Nigger to a > black > > > man and see what happens. Words do mean something and this event has > > > crossed the line. It seems to me that those who come from a > > > Liberal/Socialist point of view seem to think of every body who is > > > conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the > > tag > > > Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose > not > > to > > > stoop to that level. > > > > > > Vance Wood. > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Cc: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:37 PM > > > Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > > > > > > > > > > >> They have to listen to this neo > > > > >> nazi bastard all the time, > > > > > > > > > > You are going much too far. > > > > > > > > > > Please read your statements carefully before you send > > > > > them to the world. > > > > > I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. > > > > > B.H. > > > > Also: > > > > Bernd, > > > > In the States word "nazi" is now divorced from its original meaning > and > > is > > > > used rather indiscriminately. > > > > In NYC there is a soup restaurant, whose owner likes to decide which > > soup > > > > each particular customer has to have, and if you don't like that then > > you > > > > may eat elsewhere. He is known as the "soup nazi". > > > > RT > > > > __ > > > > Roman M. Turovsky > > > > http://turovsky.org > > > > http://polyhymnion.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: # 2 lute question
Hello all, Stop me if this is too idiotic. :) The second most asked question is: "How does the carved rosette affect the tone"? I think they think there may be a purpose for it beyond its obvious ornamental effect. People are simply drawn to notice the differences between the lute and guitar; but they all find the lute very beautiful. They're just intrigued. Maybe there's no definitive answers to these questions, but the 'rosette' one is interesting. Anyone ever play a lute with just a sound hole, no rosette? Sincerely, James --
Re: Re: Something useful and nice for our newbies
Hi All: It is interesting to me that none of you have yet been struck up side the proverbial heads for suggesting the music you have chosen. A week or so ago I suggested F. DaMilano's Fantasia #31 as a good and easily playable composition for the beginner and got over ripe fruit ( exaggeration to be sure) thrown at me for suggesting such a thing for a beginner. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Ron Fletcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:46 AM Subject: Fwd: Re: Something useful and nice for our newbies > How about John Dowland's Preludium (from the Board Ms)? A most beautiful > and easy English piece. It also makes a nice prelude to the Lachrimae > Pavan. (Pickering, or Folger Ms). > > Best Wishes > > Ron Fletcher (UK) > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Arto Wikla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:24:32 +0900 > Subject: Re: Something useful and nice for our newbies > > >I suggest a new thread, where we recommend beautiful, but not too > >difficult pieces > >English renaissance stuff: > > > >- Holborne " Galliard "Hegh Ho Holiday" (39a and 39b) > > I sure wouldn't consider that one easy! > > I'm trying to think of easy pieces that don't have ANY difficult > spots. It seems there is always one awkward bit in every piece. > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > >
Re: Size of the lute world
At 04:25 PM 12/9/2003 -0800, Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Accepting such a view would require us to > > discard about 90% of what we have come to regard as the basic tenets of HIP > > performance. > >No, because a consensus, or a majority, or an institution, or a societal >norm, or accepted performance practice, is the sum total of a lot of >individual biases and axes to grind. Of course. But we must understand that we draw this consensus today, based on the sources that are available to us today. Since we have no way of knowing anything about the Renaissance and Baroque lurkers, we can never be sure that the consensus we think exists in the available sources, also existed in the exchanges the living lutenists made among themselves. Some of these exchanges survived, most did not. >So take Perrine. If you have one late 17th-century French commentator who >dislikes tablature, you have one piece of evidence about how tablature was >viewed in late 17th-century France. What other evidence is there? If there >are volumes of late 17th-century or early 18th-century French solo lute >music written in staff notation instead of tablature, they would be evidence >that Perrine was observing a trend, or starting one. But the absence of >volumes of late 17th-century or early 18th-century French solo lute music >written in staff notation instead of tablature is evidence that he was just >a guy who didn't like tablature. I agree. But the fact remains that within 19 years after the appearance of the Perrine book, Campion stated that the lute was done for. That is a fairly powerful statement and we really have only one way to verify it. How many lute books in tablature were printed for general consumption between 1697 and 1716? And I would suggest that manuscripts that can be dated to that time period are not a reliable measure of the popularity of the instrument. A manuscript would indicate a single owner, or a succession of a single owners over time. A printed book indicates an existing market. > > The increase you notice is not in the number of players, but in the number > > of early music ensemble. > >Unless one lute player is playing all the gigs with all of the ensembles, >there has to be an increase in lute players to go with the increase in the >number of ensembles. yea, but do they make a living doing this? > > As for the performing and recording lutenists, I > > would wager that between Michel Podolsky, Eugen Dombois, Suzanne Bloch, > > Stanley Buetens, Konrad Raggosnig, Walter Gerwig, Julian Bream and Narciso > > Yepes, to mention the better known lutenists of the previous generations, > > there were just as many professional lute performers then as there are > today. > >I couldn't sleep at night if I took your money on a sucker bet like that. >Were I a gambling man (I'm not), I might take bets on whether there are more >professional lutenists in London now than there were in the entire world >forty years ago. Probably true, if your definition of a professional lutenist in London today depends on counting on anyone who owns a lute and produced a vanity CD. I would suggest that the way to measure this, is to walk into Border's or Tower Records, and see how many lute CDs are available in the bins. Since we cannot walk into similar stores in 1956 or so, we have to go by existing discographies. In 1990, I published a discography of guitar records. It includes a section of lute recordings, mostly LPs that were produced before 1990. The picture it gives is illuminating. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: # 1 lute question
In a message dated 12/9/2003 4:48:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi James: I view it as an issue of balance. The peg box loaded is probably the single most weighty portion of the Lute. Bent back as it is helps to distribute the weight more toward the center of the instrument. Hi Vance, Thanks, yours is the only serious reply so far; but I do think "So it will fit in the case" is kinda cute. We might think it a silly (not stupid, as Bruno suggests) question, but if anyone expresses any curiosity about the lute, I think it's good p.r. to try to be polite and/or funny when replying. If you give a sarcastic answer, then you can guarantee that's what they will retain. Perhaps some luthiers have some ideas? Sincerely, James --
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Michael: Your ability to see only what you want to see, and understand what you want to understand is a true source of amazement. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > Vance wrote, > conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag > Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to > stoop to that level > >MT wrote, >Vance your hypocrisy knows no bounds! > Michael Thames > Luthier > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames > - Original Message - > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:17 PM > Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > > > > Dear Roman: > > > > I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles this term has come to mean > as > > you have described, in other circles, especially where there is a Jewish > > back ground haunted by memories of the holocaust, you and Michael are > > totally off base. I can think of no four letter word, invective or insult > > that would prick the heart of an individual whose family was decimated by > > the horrors of WWII and the holocaust than to be referred to as a Nazi. > > > > To prove a point go out into the street and use the work Nigger to a black > > man and see what happens. Words do mean something and this event has > > crossed the line. It seems to me that those who come from a > > Liberal/Socialist point of view seem to think of every body who is > > conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the > tag > > Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not > to > > stoop to that level. > > > > Vance Wood. > > - Original Message - > > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:37 PM > > Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > > > > > > > >> They have to listen to this neo > > > >> nazi bastard all the time, > > > > > > > > You are going much too far. > > > > > > > > Please read your statements carefully before you send > > > > them to the world. > > > > I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. > > > > B.H. > > > Also: > > > Bernd, > > > In the States word "nazi" is now divorced from its original meaning and > is > > > used rather indiscriminately. > > > In NYC there is a soup restaurant, whose owner likes to decide which > soup > > > each particular customer has to have, and if you don't like that then > you > > > may eat elsewhere. He is known as the "soup nazi". > > > RT > > > __ > > > Roman M. Turovsky > > > http://turovsky.org > > > http://polyhymnion.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
the facsimile before xmas-redux
Dear All; I must say I was greatly entertained by the Roman-Matanya Drama Group's rendition of Dickens' "Christmas Carol". I laughed, I cried, I rubbed my eyes, my fingers went numb (after opening 400 emails in 4 days!), With Roman as the dutiful clerk diligently uploading tablatures for his fellow clerks who are so destitute they are reduced to downloading free tablatures from the internet. And Matanya as the cantankerous Ebenezer jealously seeking to extract a tariff from the poor clerks for the meagre bit of gruel they're able to scrape off the bathroom wall that is the internet. My only criticism is that the play did seem to run on a bit. In the words of that great English philosopher, Stan Laurel, " Life just isn't short enough for this sort of thing, Ollie." God Bless Us, Everyone, Gary Digman -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to choosing the Jewish faith of her husband? Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "arielabramovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:27 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > My sister and brother in law are both Jewish. My remark was not directed > towards any specific race, and I think in the context that it was delivered > this is obvious. But those who choose to make an issue about this, have > every freedom. > However I've noticed that some of these individuals are the very one's > crying for a stop to this insanity, but when shown there own nose in a > mirror can't see it. > In this case it was directed at an individual who sought to impose his way > of thinking upon me, not an equal exchange of ideas and philosophy, only > through strong handed tactics, insulting my ignorance, standing in the > guitar and lute world, criminalizing me, and so on. I responded with > absurdities. > If he were a universal monarch, I have no doubt, he would have chosen > to wipe me off the face of the earth for my belief's, because they were > different then his. >In the future, I will do my best to deliver any and all, ill intent, > insults, bad wishes, and hypocrisy, In the mannerly way in which one can > attain the most devastating effect. A skill I have now acquired by > observing the best of the best on this list. > Michael Thames > Luthier > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames > - Original Message - > From: "arielabramovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:20 PM > Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > > > > Dear Vance, > > regardless of whether I find the whole thing > (argument) > > to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also > > exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the > context > > the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning. > > I belong to the (according to your thinking structure, which in this case- > > and for my taste- tends to be a bit simplistic) Liberal/Socialist' sector, > > and I believe that a conservative is actually a conservative, and not > > necessary a Nazi (can sometimes be both, plus many other things). > > Generalizations aren't always a very good idea. > > I don't think anyone should be consider a victim in this case, and I don't > > really believe that the simple use of the word nazi determines the limit > > between the acceptable or not. > > ATB, > > A > > > > > > >
Re: # 1 lute question
Hi James: I view it as an issue of balance. The peg box loaded is probably the single most weighty portion of the Lute. Bent back as it is helps to distribute the weight more toward the center of the instrument. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:58 PM Subject: Re: # 1 lute question > Hi to all, > > Whenever I perform on the lute the number one question from the audience > is, "Why is the head/pegbox bent at such a sharp angle"? I'm guessing it's an > engineering solution to the torque of all the strings on a very lightly built > instrument, but I wish I could give a definitive answer. Fred Noad's answer > was that it helps keep you from jabbing the person to your left. :) Anyway, > humorous answers are welcome, but if anybody knows for sure... > > Sincerely, > > James Edwards > > --
Re: Pieces similar to "A Toye".
Hi Herbert: The composer was probably one of the most prolific composers of the period: Good Ol' Anonymous. A very large number of good English Lute pieces are unascribed. If you can get a micro film copy of the Cambridge Manuscript there are a lot of fairly easy pieces in it. However as I was once told there are no easy Lute pieces, just some that are less difficult. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Herbert Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:45 AM Subject: Pieces similar to "A Toye". > > In the UC Berkeley music library I saw an edition of Diana (Diane?) > Poulton's introduction to the lute. > > It has a companion book of pieces to study. Piece #1 in this book was "A > Toye" in C major. > > I like this piece. Unfortunately, Poulton's book gave no composer. > > Can anyone suggest how to find pieces of similar style, and of the same or > slightly greater difficulty? Does anyone know the composer? > >
Re: Tab/Staff and the rest of it
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip > > And in view of the fact that so much lute music has been transcribed for the > guitar, it seems to me that one could do the same for the lute without losing > overmuch. I guess this the point you are missing. Almost no lute music has been transcribed for guitar. Before the 18th century the lute was by far the most important instrument. According to Arthur at least 60.000 to 80.000 pieces for lute have survived. A few hundred pieces have been transcribed for the guitar and nobody will transcribe all these pieces into anything. If you want to play the lute you have to read tablature - you simply have no choice... Rainer adS
Re: Size of the lute world
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > So, with the addition of the Milleran quote furnished by Fred, we now have > three commentaries by French musicians about the dangers of tablature to > the general musicianship of the player. > > It could be said, and I would not be able to argue against it, that each of > these musicians, Milleran, Perrine and Campion were not talking as > witnesses of their time, but only expressing their own personal bias. Actually, I think both Milleran and Campion were speaking of the dangers of relying *solely* on tablature. I agree with them. I've given similar warnings here myself. This is a far cry from advocating the abandonment of tablature, which both Milleran and Campion used. > If we > accept this point of view, we then must accept that every single musician > of the time was acting as an individual with an axe to grind and not as an > impartial observer of society. Since I have never met an impartial observer of society, and have met many individuals with personal biases and axes to grind, I have no trouble accepting it. > Accepting such a view would require us to > discard about 90% of what we have come to regard as the basic tenets of HIP > performance. No, because a consensus, or a majority, or an institution, or a societal norm, or accepted performance practice, is the sum total of a lot of individual biases and axes to grind. Sometimes evidence is conclusive, and sometimes it's irrelevant, but most of the time you have to weigh its probative value against whatever other evidence is out there. One piece of evidence can be consistent with more than one conclusion. You need to look at as much evidence as you can find, and not draw conclusions from isolated bits of evidence if you can avoid it. Mr. X's comment that he doesn't like playing with nails or using octave stringing tells you that Mr. X didn't like playing with nails or using octave stringing. It also tells you that someone else was out there playing with nails or using octave stringing. So if you're trying to establish whether nails or octaves was a general practice, his remark doesn't prove much by itself. So take Perrine. If you have one late 17th-century French commentator who dislikes tablature, you have one piece of evidence about how tablature was viewed in late 17th-century France. What other evidence is there? If there are volumes of late 17th-century or early 18th-century French solo lute music written in staff notation instead of tablature, they would be evidence that Perrine was observing a trend, or starting one. But the absence of volumes of late 17th-century or early 18th-century French solo lute music written in staff notation instead of tablature is evidence that he was just a guy who didn't like tablature. > The increase you notice is not in the number of players, but in the number > of early music ensemble. Unless one lute player is playing all the gigs with all of the ensembles, there has to be an increase in lute players to go with the increase in the number of ensembles. > As for the performing and recording lutenists, I > would wager that between Michel Podolsky, Eugen Dombois, Suzanne Bloch, > Stanley Buetens, Konrad Raggosnig, Walter Gerwig, Julian Bream and Narciso > Yepes, to mention the better known lutenists of the previous generations, > there were just as many professional lute performers then as there are today. I couldn't sleep at night if I took your money on a sucker bet like that. Were I a gambling man (I'm not), I might take bets on whether there are more professional lutenists in London now than there were in the entire world forty years ago. > The fact that Stubbs and O'Dette are directing the BEMF, is > wonderful news, Not exactly news... > but how many other such festivals world wide are directed > by lutenists? Neither of the other two such festivals that I can think of. Howard
Re: Tab/Staff and the rest of it
I already put my two cents worth before, but I would like to add a few more comments: As many have said, as you get more and more familiar with lute tablature, you can actually hear the pitches, and determine the voice leading quite well. You must also remember that most of us lutenists, have come to the lute via the classical guitar, and as such, were used to reading staff notation for guitar, keeping the pitch of the guitar in mind. When we switched to the lute, had we had to immediately use staff notation with the lute pitch in mind, we would have been lost. Over the years we all become so acquainted with our instruments, that we can actually play directly from staff notation (over two staves = true pitch). To this day, I cannot play a lute piece on the guitar if not transcribed in E tuning (unless I use tablature) but I can play the same piece on the lute in G tuningin other words, I cannot play as a transposed instrument (like the saxophone in B flat where you actually play a C to get B -flat...or something like that.) Tablature is not, in my opinion, an inferior system, it is a nice complement to other notation systems that exist. And really, it doesn`t make sense to transcribe all of this lute music into notation when the tablature is right there for the learning.. Bruno Montreal, Canada lutenist since 1978 Howard Posner wrote: >It's no surprise that Tom Beck, who has spent more than half a century with >staff notation and a few weeks with tablature, would be less at home with >tablature. > >If you play from tab enough, you will start to hear it, recognize tab signs >with pitches (just as you learned to recognize those funny little dots as >pitches), and see the voice-leading. > >HP > > > > > > >
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
My sister and brother in law are both Jewish. My remark was not directed towards any specific race, and I think in the context that it was delivered this is obvious. But those who choose to make an issue about this, have every freedom. However I've noticed that some of these individuals are the very one's crying for a stop to this insanity, but when shown there own nose in a mirror can't see it. In this case it was directed at an individual who sought to impose his way of thinking upon me, not an equal exchange of ideas and philosophy, only through strong handed tactics, insulting my ignorance, standing in the guitar and lute world, criminalizing me, and so on. I responded with absurdities. If he were a universal monarch, I have no doubt, he would have chosen to wipe me off the face of the earth for my belief's, because they were different then his. In the future, I will do my best to deliver any and all, ill intent, insults, bad wishes, and hypocrisy, In the mannerly way in which one can attain the most devastating effect. A skill I have now acquired by observing the best of the best on this list. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: "arielabramovich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:20 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > Dear Vance, > regardless of whether I find the whole thing (argument) > to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also > exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the context > the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning. > I belong to the (according to your thinking structure, which in this case- > and for my taste- tends to be a bit simplistic) Liberal/Socialist' sector, > and I believe that a conservative is actually a conservative, and not > necessary a Nazi (can sometimes be both, plus many other things). > Generalizations aren't always a very good idea. > I don't think anyone should be consider a victim in this case, and I don't > really believe that the simple use of the word nazi determines the limit > between the acceptable or not. > ATB, > A > >
a' lute for sale again.....
Dear Lutenetters,=20 It seems my mail program has added lots of strange numbers to my mail so her= e=20 it is again without the cryptic digits. Sorry for the "Wiederholung". About a year ago I advertised two lutes I wanted to sell, a lute in g' and i= n=20 a' by David van Edwards . I sold the g' lute a few months ago and I have now drastically reduced the=20 price of the a' lute from =E2=82=AC2300 ca.=C2=A31450 to =E2=82=AC1600 ca.= =C2=A31100 which is almost=20 =C2=A31000 less than David is asking for this instrument (=C2=A31450). It is= a good=20 instrument, but when I ordered it I wanted to try a six course instrument, n= ow I=20 realised I prefer 7 course instruments, and it is a shame to see it not get= ting=20 out of it's case more often . So if you need a' lute for duets or Italian=20 renaissance lute music here is a chance to get a good instrument at a rock b= ottom=20 price...but only while stock lasts :) It has the following specs. - 53cm, 6 courses, with a body based on the=20 Raphael Mest lute in Sweden, 23 yew ribs with striped neck and pegbox (mapl= e and=20 boxwood). The bridge has very lovely rose ornaments on each end. It comes=20 complete with fitted case. For more info and pics have a look at=20 http://members.aol.com/phalese/lutes.html I live in germany, but I am often in London if anybody from England is=20 interested I could deliver it to london.=20 best wishes=20 Mark Wheeler M=C3=BClheim an der Ruhr , Germany --
Tabs, Staff and the rest of it. (for Stewart McCoy)
Dear Stewart, Many thanks for your for points. I have spent some time considering your point (c) polyphony in three voices. The example you give is very ingenious and makes perfect sense. Indeed, I rather imagine I have played such pieces, which must have been notated thus, I would guess, on the guitar, and a lovely effect it is too. but I have tried visualise something more complex, with quite different note values in the three voices, and can't imagine how they would be notated. Thus I came back to wondering why your point (b), a single melodic line with an extremely complex rhythm which you say would be better in staff notation, does not also apply to three polyphonic parts in extremely complex rhythms. Your other points are clear to me, Figured base (your point f) I did till the cows come home as a student, and still enjoy having a tinkle at it now and then, but that seems to me something quite different. The essence of my query you encapsulate admirably in you points (b) and (c), and while I have now understood your point (c), I still don't really see how tablature copes with the problem of complex inner rhythms. I spent some time this evening (while watching Man U. beat Stuttgart 2-0 on telly) looking through my lute music and did not come across anything that seemed to correspond to what you say in your point (c). As regards the rhythms, no doubt this is yet a further sign of total idiocy on my part, but many of the pieces taken from Wayne's site have 4 flags (64th notes, three flags (32nd notes) attached to the rhythm signs and I assumed these are/were what I have understood them to be, very short note values which se em unnecessarily complicated. Needless to say, I am thoroughly enjoying the whole business of studying this new terrain, but a question in time saves nine later on, saves a lot of frayed nerves, hence my simply plunging ahead in this way and bothering the experts. But in my own academic career I have helped many young people in difficulties, having in my turn been helped as a kid who grew up in the most difficult circumstances, and I do feel that helping out even idiots is not the worst thing one can do as a musician and music lover/fanatic. Kindest regards and many, may thanks Tom
a' lute for sale
Dear Lutenetters,=20 about a year ago I advertised two lutes I wanted to sell, a lute in g' and i= n=20 a' by David van Edwards . I sold the g' lute a few months ago and I have now drastically reduced the=20 price of the a' lute from =E2=82=AC2300 ca.=C2=A31450 to =E2=82=AC1600 ca.= =C2=A31100 which is almost=20 =C2=A31000 less than David is asking for this instrument (=C2=A31450). It is= a good=20 instrument, but when I ordered it I wanted to try a six course instrument, n= ow I=20 realised I prefer 7 course instruments, and it is a shame to see it not get= ting=20 out of it's case more often . So if you need a' lute for duets or Italian=20 renaissance lute music here is a chance to get a good instrument at a rock b= ottom=20 price...but only while stock lasts :) It has the following specs. - 53cm, 6 courses,=C2=A0 with a body based on th= e=20 Raphael Mest lute in Sweden, 23 yew ribs with striped neck=C2=A0 and pegbox=20= (maple=C2=A0 and=20 boxwood). The bridge has very lovely rose ornaments on each end. It comes=20 complete with fitted case. For more info and pics have a look at=20 http://members.aol.com/phalese/lutes.html I live in germany, but I am often in London if anybody from England is=20 interested I could deliver it to london.=20 best wishes=20 Mark Wheeler M=C3=BClheim an der Ruhr , Germany --
Re: Tab/Staff and the rest of it
Tom (et al.)-- >about complex polyphony, doesn't entirely convince me. There are a few pieces which I have found very helpful in learning to play and hear the different parts in polyphonic settings (I'm sure there are more): Duos and Sonetos of Enriquez de Valderrabano (Silva de Sirenas, 1547). Starting with the duos, you can pick out each of the two voices and hear where or when to hold a note value. Then play them together trying to hear and emphasize the different voice movements. The same goes for his sonetos, which are more or less three voice pieces. The duos, especially, are simple enough for a beginner to tackle, yet provide good practice material later on as well. They also helped with learning to hear mentally a piece set in tablature. Regards, Leonard Williams [] (_) ~ PS-- I use the editions in Lyre Music Publications' "Tres Libros de Musica Para Vihuela", a fine collection of 16th c. Spanish works. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Tab/Staff and the rest of it > HI all, and many thanks to those who answered my query about tab versus staff > notation, and also about the left and right hands. So many points have been
Tab/staff notation. (for Vance)
Dear Vance, Thanks for your kind words. I am sure you a right and that I am trying run before I can walk, that with more practice and experience I will be able to read the tab much better than I can now. Indeed, I am already beginning to recognise a few of the standard clichés of lute music in their tab form. It's just that I always like to learn as much as I can from those who really know. It might sound silly, or even arrogant, but in reality I've always found that asking the experts gets me a lot further than sitting there and trying to puzzle out for five what turns out to be obvious if only one had asked the right question at the right time. I did add to my remarks that I speak with the full conviction of the totally ignorant, neither self-deprecating nor pompous, but simply the experience of many years that if in doubt, ask those who know, put your questions a clearly as you can, and if the person you ask is a decent chap, you'll get a decent answer. Thankfully you appear to be a decent chap! Kindest regards Tom
lure question
My lute builder suggested that the reason was that as the musician sat close to each other in those days, there was less danger of prodding each other with their instruments. Sounds sensible to me, though of course I can't say. Cheers Tom
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Vance, regardless of whether I find the whole thing (argument) to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the context the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning. I belong to the (according to your thinking structure, which in this case- and for my taste- tends to be a bit simplistic) Liberal/Socialist' sector, and I believe that a conservative is actually a conservative, and not necessary a Nazi (can sometimes be both, plus many other things). Generalizations aren't always a very good idea. I don't think anyone should be consider a victim in this case, and I don't really believe that the simple use of the word nazi determines the limit between the acceptable or not. ATB, A
Re: Szymon Gasienica Lutes
Hi Stephan! Stephan Olbertz wrote: >> A visitor from Karkow told me that Mr Gasienica doesn't build lutes >> any more : no customers on the horizon. > > Really? I seem to remember that last time I asked him > about his instruments he had a waiting list of some > length. But I may be wrong... I wish that your version is true! Well possible that I misunderstood something. Pardon! B.H.
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Vance, regardless of whether I find the whole thing (argument) to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the context the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning. I belong to the (according to your thinking structure, which in this case- and for my taste- tends to be a bit simplistic) Liberal/Socialist' sector, and I believe that a conservative is actually a conservative, and not necessary a Nazi (can sometimes be both, plus many other things). Generalizations aren't always a very good idea. I don't think anyone should be consider a victim in this case, and I don't really believe that the simple use of the word nazi determines the limit between the acceptable or not. ATB, A
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Roman, hello all, >>> They have to listen to this neo >>> nazi bastard all the time, >> >> You are going much too far. >> I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. > Bernd, take it from an " MO expert", what he has is not patience. He > actually seems to derive pleasure from ill-will he causes. Quite often I have the impression that "those", the ill-willing, mails by MO don't reach my little computer due to some strange manipulations of the mail system. I can only see a little bit of sarcasm, and I don't find his opinion so provoking that bad insults should be allowed. best regards from B.H.
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
"Nazi" should be reserved for someone wearing a swastika. This has actually come up before on this list, when someone (probably me) took exception to the use of "early music nazis" Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > It seems to me that those who come from a > Liberal/Socialist point of view seem to think of every body who is > conservative as a Nazi. Not so. The word we liberal-pinko-bleeding heart types tend to overuse is "fascist." For a while, I had my three-year-old asking me to read him the story of "The Three Little Fascist Pigs." HP
Re: Tab/Staff and the rest of it
Dear Tom, Please don't think that your questions are naive. You are asking all the right questions, and it is a pleasure to try to answer them. Just two small points. 1) Tablature and staff notation both have their advantages. My view is that it is better to learn to read from staff notation on the lute first, until you are absolutely familiar with the G tuning. Otherwise there's a risk that you will think of the 1st course of the lute as e'. There is no need to rush into learning to read tablature. Very soon you'll be reading them both fluently. 2) Forgive me if I am stating the obvious, but your talk of 1/128th notes makes me wonder if you have made a common mistake. This sort of flag |\ | is a minim or half note, not a quaver or eighth note. This sort of flag |\ |\ | is a crotchet or quarter note, not a semiquaver or 1/16th note. This sort of flag |\ |\ |\ | is a quaver or eighth note, not a demi-semiquaver or 1/32nd note. If you want a 1/128th note (I don't know the English English for it), it would be |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | in tablature. Heaven forbid. :-) Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. Another point that seems slightly superfluous is the wide variety of different note values. I must confess that I have all my lute music from Wayne's wonderful website, and there are pieces which seem to have 64th notes, where a 16th note a most would do. There appears to be no consistency about the notation, and I often find myself stuck between dotted 64th notes and 128th notes or whatever, where a few good old 1/4 notes etc. would do the trick just as well. Indeed Art Robb, who built my lute, has just given me some music distributed by the lute society of GB, and there they make use of 1/4 notes and the like, and this makes life a great deal easier. till I know what I'm talking about. It just interested me to know what the experts think of my naive questions and ideas.
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Hi Stephan! I wonder! In baroque lute music this may often happen but in renaissance music? Usually the melodic movement is (at least for me) rather good supported by the tabulature ... Thomas Am Die, 2003-12-09 um 22.38 schrieb Stephan Olbertz: > Dear Stewart, > > thanks for your detailed posting. However I'd like to add that > playing fast single line divisions by for example John Johnson > bears (at least for me) a specific kind of difficulty: beyond > a certain speed it is quite hard to get an impression of the > melody movement in the tablature at a glance. When reading > staff notation it doesn't need much experience to see an > upward or downward scale or other kinds of typical motions. > One wouldn't need to look at every single note. However, when > sightreading tablature divisions I often walk into the trap of > the unexpected and I find myself playing the wrong "lick" as > my fingers move faster than I can figure out all those curly > signs. So I think single line music is not necessarily written > best in tab like your example of 15th century music with > complex rhythm. But then - the time needed to rewrite it in > staff notation is better spent on practising the trebles :-) > > Best regards, > > Stephan -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Me again, this makes more sense: (snip) So I think this rhythmically quite simple single line music is not necessarily written best in tab, just like your example of 15th century music with complex rhythm. But then - the time needed to rewrite it in staff notation is better spent on practising the trebles :-) Stephan
Re: Size of the lute world
At 12:32 PM 12/9/2003 -0800, Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > May be you are right. May be I should have been more specific and say that > > these comments were "an indication of a general feelings > > [sic] of malaise regarding tablature" in France at the specific time frame > > of 1697 to 1716. And thank you for the [sic]. Fixed it. > >Even so, I think you'd be making too much of them. It normally takes at >least six comments to establish an official general feeling of malaise, but >of course it requires a bit more among the French, who are looser with their >opinions. I think you got something there, but I am not sure you want to pursue this argument to its inevitable conclusion. The main problem we all have in historical research, is that there are not too many extant sources for any particular issue, and more often than not, conclusions are arrived at by extrapolation of the available data. What was the term for that concept? Postmodern Phenomenological Deconstructivism or something like that. Give you an example. There are a few documentary sources which established that in a double octave course on the baroque guitar, the high octave string was on the side of the thumb. There are no sources which indicate that this course was ever played by itself, without the associated bourdon. That has not stopped an entire movement of baroque guitarists to assume that it was in fact meant to be so played. Are they making too much of it? and then, too much of what? And then take the issue of iconographic evidence in which no one is able to state if the picture was made by the artist in reference to a real live musician, or in reference to a staged model who had no idea about lute technique, or in reference to another picture in which the matter of placing the hands, fingers, course, frets etc, was determined by the artist in what can be best described as artistic licence. There has been a tremendous amount of traffic in this list about such issues, often based on one or two pictures. Are we making too much of it? here is one picture you may not have seen before: http://www.orphee.com/lute/lute-player.jpg I cna just imagine the sort of conclusions that can be made of it. So, with the addition of the Milleran quote furnished by Fred, we now have three commentaries by French musicians about the dangers of tablature to the general musicianship of the player. It could be said, and I would not be able to argue against it, that each of these musicians, Milleran, Perrine and Campion were not talking as witnesses of their time, but only expressing their own personal bias. If we accept this point of view, we then must accept that every single musician of the time was acting as an individual with an axe to grind and not as an impartial observer of society. Accepting such a view would require us to discard about 90% of what we have come to regard as the basic tenets of HIP performance. >One analogy would be the periodic copyright/upload/download flareups we have >around here. An observer might extrapolate from the heat and number of the >posts that it's a huge hot-button issue, but in fact perhaps 95% of the lute >listers expressed no opinion at all, and may have no strong opinion on the >subject. Excellent analogy. Which, if carried to its logical conclusion, would tell us that we have no way of knowing what was the opinion, performance practice, musical output of all those musicians who never posted anything on the bandwidth of the Renaissance and baroque period. Bach and Weiss are the greatest? of course they are, because they have been some of the more prolific posters of their time. But what do we know about the lute works of lesser figures such as Graupner, Buxtehude, Froberger, etc? and by etc. I mean all those composers whose existence in the time frame is not even known. Some of them manage to sneak through and come up to the surface once in a while, many, and we have no idea how many exactly, never do. They never wrote anything for the lute? perhaps. But we shall never know for sure, What we do know for sure is that no such works by them is known to exist. IOW, they could have been lurkers. >I have no statistical data worth knowing. But I can hardly miss things like >the increase in lute players making a living performing, mostly as continuo >players; the way that theorbos, archlutes and guitars are taken for granted >in baroque ensembles and recordings, the publicity push Harmonia Mundi USA >has thrown behind Paul O'Dette, or the presence of O'Dette and Stubbs as >directors of the Boston Early Music Festival. The increase you notice is not in the number of players, but in the number of early music ensemble. Back in the old days there was the Noah Greenberg group, and not much else. As for the performing and recording lutenists, I would wager that between Michel Podolsky, Eugen Dombois, Suzanne Bloch,
Lute duets in grand staff
While we're in the vicinity of the subject: Any recommendations of sources of lute duos transcribed for two keyboards (other than Robinson and Dowland)? Howard
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Dear Stewart, thanks for your detailed posting. However I'd like to add that playing fast single line divisions by for example John Johnson bears (at least for me) a specific kind of difficulty: beyond a certain speed it is quite hard to get an impression of the melody movement in the tablature at a glance. When reading staff notation it doesn't need much experience to see an upward or downward scale or other kinds of typical motions. One wouldn't need to look at every single note. However, when sightreading tablature divisions I often walk into the trap of the unexpected and I find myself playing the wrong "lick" as my fingers move faster than I can figure out all those curly signs. So I think single line music is not necessarily written best in tab like your example of 15th century music with complex rhythm. But then - the time needed to rewrite it in staff notation is better spent on practising the trebles :-) Best regards, Stephan
Re: Kapsberger tabs
Dear David, I would add that Kapsberger's Toccata Arpeggiata appears in Nigel North's _Continuo Playing on the Lute, Archlute and Theorbo_ (London: Faber Music Ltd, 1987), page 167, preceded by a discussion of how to play the piece. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: "Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Kapsberger tabs > David Tappan at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Can anyone direct me to available chitarrone tabulatures for > > Kapsberger's Toccata arpegiata and Aria di Fiorenza as performed by > > Paul O'Dette? > > > > By the way, I've been a subscriber to this list for about three > > years, although mostly as a passive reader. While I dread the > > periodic flame wars, I find them easy to ignore. I must say that my > > occasional requests for information and advice have always been > > answered with the utmost courtesy and caring. You've been very > > helpful to me. Thanks much. > > > > I especially enjoy reading Howard Posner's comments whenever they appear. > > Nothing particularly enjoyable about this one, I'm afraid: > > Both pieces are in his Libro Primo d'Intavolatura di Chitarrone (1604) on > pages 7 and 20. There is a 1982 S.P.E.S. facsimile of that and two other > Kapsberger books; no. 46 in the series.
Re: # 1 lute question
Hi to all, Whenever I perform on the lute the number one question from the audience is, "Why is the head/pegbox bent at such a sharp angle"? I'm guessing it's an engineering solution to the torque of all the strings on a very lightly built instrument, but I wish I could give a definitive answer. Fred Noad's answer was that it helps keep you from jabbing the person to your left. :) Anyway, humorous answers are welcome, but if anybody knows for sure... Sincerely, James Edwards --
Re: Size of the lute world
> You'll note that you and I are focusing on two different things: you on the > players of solo music, and I on their place in the larger musical world. > Perhaps the difference is in seeing the lute world as essentially a subset > of the guitar world or as a subset of the early music world. The problem is that guitar players usually don't accept the fact that the lute is an instrument on it's own. The guitar is something comepletly different - not like traverso and Boehm flute or oboe or the baroque violin and the modern violin which show some "evolution" - better term maybe would be "Adaption on the actual taste" - but the lute is a very different instrument with a very different role in music history, usage etc. It's simply completly wrong to look at the guitar as "evolution/development" of the lute. Both instruments are related like vihuela and lute are or rebec and violin ... The longer I play the lute the more I am convinced that the idea of Segovia and the likes who searched for some "worth of playing" music and thought to have found it in the renaissance lute/vihuela music were not helpfull for the lute in the sense of helping the lute (which actually wasn't their goal - so no fault - they wanted to help the guitar. Today the situation is completely different) Thomas -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Funny! Just today I needed to explain to one of my (guitar) pupils that what's written in the edition is not necessarily what he should play. The bass notes in "guitar notation" are often integrated in the upper voices to avoid a larger number of rests. But I don't think they should be stopped but sound as long as the next tone on the bass line appears. (just to add that the phenomenon also appears in "guitar world") Thomas Am Die, 2003-12-09 um 21.40 schrieb Stewart McCoy: > The advantage of staff notation is supposed to be that it shows > exactly how long notes last, but does it? What if you have an > Alberti-style accompaniment in the left hand of a piano piece, i.e. > broken chords consisting of quavers? > > a__a__ > _a___a__|_ > __c___c_|_ > _c__c___|_ > |_ > |_ > > (It would be in staff notation for the piano, of course.) > > OK. You can lift your finger for each note and make quavers. Now, > what happens if the music has "Ped." written underneath? The > sustaining pedal will cause all those notes to ring on, whether you > lift your fingers or not. They aren't quavers any more. They ring on > as they would on the lute, guitar or harp. The notation no longer > reflects the actual sound heard, but it is written like that, > because it is helpful for the player to see the music notated in > that way. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart McCoy. > > > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "lutenet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: Staff Notation/Tablature > > > > As usual Stewart has said it all and said it succinctly. I would > only add a > > couple of comments. > > > > When instrumental music began to be written or printed towards the > end of > > the 15th century the method of musical notation in general use for > vocal > > music was unsuitable for the purpose since it didn't necessarily > indicate > > the actual pitch at which the music was to be performed and method > of > > indicating time and rhythm was very complex. Other instruments, > including > > keyboard instruments and the violin also used tablature. By the > time Campion > > and Perrine expressed a view this had radically changed. Even > Campion could > > hardly have written all his guitar music using seven different > scordature in > > staff notation. > > > > Tablature is much simpler and easier both to hand copy and to > engrave or > > print - important considerations in the 16th and 17th centuries. > Anyone who > > has ever tried writing out or playing series of 5-part chords for > the > > baroque guitar in staff notation, or even in tablature, could > hardly fail to > > see the logic of alfabeto - a form of notation perfectly suited > for its > > purpose. As Stewart says - its a doddle because it is perfectly > adapted to > > the instrument! > > > > Monica > -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance wrote, conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to stoop to that level MT wrote, Vance your hypocrisy knows no bounds! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:17 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > Dear Roman: > > I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles this term has come to mean as > you have described, in other circles, especially where there is a Jewish > back ground haunted by memories of the holocaust, you and Michael are > totally off base. I can think of no four letter word, invective or insult > that would prick the heart of an individual whose family was decimated by > the horrors of WWII and the holocaust than to be referred to as a Nazi. > > To prove a point go out into the street and use the work Nigger to a black > man and see what happens. Words do mean something and this event has > crossed the line. It seems to me that those who come from a > Liberal/Socialist point of view seem to think of every body who is > conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag > Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to > stoop to that level. > > Vance Wood. > - Original Message - > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:37 PM > Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > > > > >> They have to listen to this neo > > >> nazi bastard all the time, > > > > > > You are going much too far. > > > > > > Please read your statements carefully before you send > > > them to the world. > > > I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. > > > B.H. > > Also: > > Bernd, > > In the States word "nazi" is now divorced from its original meaning and is > > used rather indiscriminately. > > In NYC there is a soup restaurant, whose owner likes to decide which soup > > each particular customer has to have, and if you don't like that then you > > may eat elsewhere. He is known as the "soup nazi". > > RT > > __ > > Roman M. Turovsky > > http://turovsky.org > > http://polyhymnion.org > > > > > > > >
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Dear Howard: You are correct. Lute music when it is written into staff notation is written on the Grand Staff. That includes the bass staff as you know. A lot of Guitarist will stumble over that little issue a lot harder than they will over learning how to play tablature. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Miles Dempster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:15 AM Subject: Re: Staff Notation/Tablature > Yes Tom. > > But why do guitarists have to read from a single staff (transposed an > octave)? I find that it really obscures the voice leading? > > Miles Dempster > > > On Tuesday, December 9, 2003, at 06:27 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > Dear Howard and Vance, > > > > I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative > > virtues of > > staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means > > I have > > little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to > > play a > > fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is > > often a > > mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in > > staff > > notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. > > The letter 'd' > > in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents > > about > > three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in > > staff > > notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to > > play it, that > > I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, > > am > > beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but > > find > > sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the > > context what comes > > (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first > > example > > that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what > > one would > > expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read > > letter > > for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to > > read any > > form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. > > Why, > > then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would > > then be in the > > same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly > > light > > years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a > > glance. To > > this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers > > > > Tom Beck > > > > > >
Re: Kapsberger tabs
As performed by, I don't know - but if you can get through the ads and can read Italian tablature or convert it, try Richard Civiol's site:- http://www.ifrance.com/luth-librairie Tony - Original Message - From: "David Tappan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:17 PM Subject: Kapsberger tabs > Can anyone direct me to available chitarrone tabulatures for > Kapsberger's Toccata arpegiata and Aria di Fiorenza as performed by > Paul O'Dette? > > By the way, I've been a subscriber to this list for about three > years, although mostly as a passive reader. While I dread the > periodic flame wars, I find them easy to ignore. I must say that my > occasional requests for information and advice have always been > answered with the utmost courtesy and caring. You've been very > helpful to me. Thanks much. > > I especially enjoy reading Howard Posner's comments whenever they appear. > > Thanks again. > > Dave Tappan > Box 304 > Pebble Beach, CA 93953 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 831.641.0566 > >
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Dear Monica, Many thanks indeed for your kind words. Tablature and alfabeto certainly make a lot of sense when it comes to the baroque guitar. I think it is important to see notation as having two functions: 1) To tell the musician what he must do to reproduce the music; 2) To show what is happening in the music, i.e. what sounds are to be expected. Tablature serves the first function very well, but fails with the second. People often complain that, since tablature doesn't show pitch, it is easy to overlook the musical logic, the harmony, the counterpoint; we can't be sure how long notes last, and so on. To some extent this is, of course, true. However, I would argue that there are instances where staff notation is as unsatisfactory as tablature at explaining what is happening in the music: 1) Octave stringing. We cannot tell simply by looking at a piece of tablature whether or not a course is tuned in octaves or unisons. Staff notation could show this, but very few people bother to show octave stringing when they make transcriptions into staff notation, and with good reason. How much you hear of an upper or lower octave is open to question, but the page would be horribly cluttered, if you transcribed all the notes in octaves say for the 4th, 5th, and 6th courses of a 6-course lute. It would look a mess. Similarly, it would look a total mess on the page if you notated every note heard at every octave of a large church organ with all the stops pulled out (including those funny nazard ones). You'd never see the wood for the trees. Conclusion: tablature and staff notation both fail to show the reality of the sound with regard to doubling at the octave, which arises from the inherent nature of the instrument. 2) How long notes last. Thomas Mace took great pains to show that notes may last longer than they appear to, when notated in tablature. He transcribes a viol solo which consists of two voices to make his point. What so many people fail to understand is that tablature rhythm signs do not work like crotchets and quavers in staff notation. They do not set out to tell us how long a note should last; they tell us how long a note lasts before the next one comes in, i.e. they tell us something about the note after the rhythm sign, rather than the note underneath it. The advantage of staff notation is supposed to be that it shows exactly how long notes last, but does it? What if you have an Alberti-style accompaniment in the left hand of a piano piece, i.e. broken chords consisting of quavers? a__a__ _a___a__|_ __c___c_|_ _c__c___|_ |_ |_ (It would be in staff notation for the piano, of course.) OK. You can lift your finger for each note and make quavers. Now, what happens if the music has "Ped." written underneath? The sustaining pedal will cause all those notes to ring on, whether you lift your fingers or not. They aren't quavers any more. They ring on as they would on the lute, guitar or harp. The notation no longer reflects the actual sound heard, but it is written like that, because it is helpful for the player to see the music notated in that way. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "lutenet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:02 PM Subject: Re: Staff Notation/Tablature > As usual Stewart has said it all and said it succinctly. I would only add a > couple of comments. > > When instrumental music began to be written or printed towards the end of > the 15th century the method of musical notation in general use for vocal > music was unsuitable for the purpose since it didn't necessarily indicate > the actual pitch at which the music was to be performed and method of > indicating time and rhythm was very complex. Other instruments, including > keyboard instruments and the violin also used tablature. By the time Campion > and Perrine expressed a view this had radically changed. Even Campion could > hardly have written all his guitar music using seven different scordature in > staff notation. > > Tablature is much simpler and easier both to hand copy and to engrave or > print - important considerations in the 16th and 17th centuries. Anyone who > has ever tried writing out or playing series of 5-part chords for the > baroque guitar in staff notation, or even in tablature, could hardly fail to > see the logic of alfabeto - a form of notation perfectly suited for its > purpose. As Stewart says - its a doddle because it is perfectly adapted to > the instrument! > > Monica
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Dear Tom: >From what I can understand from your response your problem is your talent. You are one of these people that can see a note and hear it in your head, and recognize an interval and hear that as well. I cannot, poor me. However is also seems to me that you learn to play pieces that way, judging where you play the piece by what you know it should sound like. This is not bad but in some cases it is self defeating. Tablature indicates exactly where the note is to be played. Relax, make sure your instrument is in tune and enjoy the discovery as you play the tablature. You will with in time begin to recognize things the way you do now but with your ability you will start to recognize the clichés unique to Lute music. Simply you are trying to make it more difficult than it is. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:27 AM Subject: Staff Notation/Tablature > Dear Howard and Vance, > > I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative virtues of > staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I have > little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to play a > fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is often a > mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in staff > notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The letter 'd' > in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents about > three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in staff > notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to play it, that > I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, am > beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but find > sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the context what comes > (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first example > that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what one would > expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read letter > for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to read any > form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. Why, > then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then be in the > same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly light > years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a glance. To > this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers > > Tom Beck > >
Re: Size of the lute world
Matanya Ophee at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > May be you are right. May be I should have been more specific and say that > these comments were "an indication of a general feelings > [sic] of malaise regarding tablature" in France at the specific time frame > of 1697 to 1716. And thank you for the [sic]. Fixed it. Even so, I think you'd be making too much of them. It normally takes at least six comments to establish an official general feeling of malaise, but of course it requires a bit more among the French, who are looser with their opinions. One analogy would be the periodic copyright/upload/download flareups we have around here. An observer might extrapolate from the heat and number of the posts that it's a huge hot-button issue, but in fact perhaps 95% of the lute listers expressed no opinion at all, and may have no strong opinion on the subject. Me: >> There's no reason to think that every other house on the block >> will ever have a lute in it, regardless of how much music is transcribed. >> If modern notation were the key to mass appeal, there would be a billion >> harpists in the world. > > That's an extreme view which does not address the immediate dilemma. I am > sure you will agree that the question is not of a lute in every house, but > a lute in every city. I do. I was responding to your remark about the status of the piano or guitar, which I may have misunderstood. >> The phenomenal and continuing growth of the lute (measured by number of >> players, concert ticket and CD sales, prominence of the better players, >> sales of instruments) in the last few decades, and the way it has been >> achieved, contradicts the notion that tablature has hindered that growth. > > Well, this is exactly the core of this thread: do we have any specific > statistical data on this growth? or your perception of it is based on a > personal impression? since you are a member of the board of the LSA, can > you tell us how this growth is reflected in the society's membership? > > That is not to say that society membership is necessarily a reliable > indicator of a general trend. I know some lutenists who will not be caught > dead belonging to a society. But it will be a useful measure. I have no statistical data worth knowing. But I can hardly miss things like the increase in lute players making a living performing, mostly as continuo players; the way that theorbos, archlutes and guitars are taken for granted in baroque ensembles and recordings, the publicity push Harmonia Mundi USA has thrown behind Paul O'Dette, or the presence of O'Dette and Stubbs as directors of the Boston Early Music Festival. You'll note that you and I are focusing on two different things: you on the players of solo music, and I on their place in the larger musical world. Perhaps the difference is in seeing the lute world as essentially a subset of the guitar world or as a subset of the early music world.
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Chapeau! - Original Message - From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Staff Notation/Tablature > Dear Tom, > > The purpose of notation is to enable the performer to reproduce > music. To that extent the nature of the notation is determined by > what the performer is expected to play. Let's look at specific > examples: > > a) A very simple single-line melody for a beginner on the lute. > Tablature is easier than staff notation. With staff notation the > player's brain has to think twice: first he reads something which > tells him the pitch of a note; then he has to convert that pitch > into deciding where the note is to be played on his instrument. Even > if there is no choice of position on the neck, there is still that > constant conversion of information going on in the player's brain. > Tablature by-passes all that irrelevant information about pitch. It > goes straight to the instrument, and our brain has just one job to > do, not two. > > b) A fifteenth-century piece of music, where a lutenist will play a > single melodic line with an extremely complex rhythm. The ideal > notation would be staff notation, not tablature, because of the > complex rhythms. Staff notation combines rhythm and pitch into a > single note, whereas tablature separates them into two entities. The > lutenist would be forever glancing up to the rhythm signs, his brain > desperately tring to wed the complex rhythms with the tablature > letters or numbers underneath. > > c) A piece of polyphony for three voices with complex rhythms. > Tablature wins the day here, because joining three sets of > intertwined complex rhythms into one set of rhythm signs simplifies > what rhythm the player needs to consider. For example, a succession > of dotted crotchets each followed by a quaver in one part, while the > same thing occurs starting one crotchet later in another part, will > look mighty complicated in staff notation. In tablature it will > appear as a simple succession of quavers. The player would need only > to read the first (or only) rhythm sign (quaver), and he could then > concentrate on the letters or numbers on the stave without having to > worry about rhythm at all. > > d) Music for a blind lutenist learning the lute from scratch. His > teacher needs to tell him which string to pluck with his right hand, > and at which fret he is to put his left-hand finger. That's two > pieces of information for every note. Here German tablature is best, > because both those pieces of information are combined into one > symbol - a letter or a number. > > e) An early 17th-century song for an Italian guitarist to strum an > accompaniment. He doesn't need the detail supplied by staff notation > and tablature. Neither notation will suit his purpose. He just needs > to know which chord to strum. The ideal notation for him is > alfabeto, where all the common chords are given a letter of the > alphabet. He reads just one letter for a five-note chord - just one > piece of information to take in, not five. > > f) Most music from 1600-1750 (with a big "more or less"), where the > harpsichord, lute, theorbo, harp, or any chordal instrument supplies > the bass line, together with suitable harmony where appropriate or > where possible. Figured bass is best here. All the brain needs to > read is each bass note. If the harmony were written out in full, he > would have too much to read. Instead he can busk whatever suits him, > the occasion and his instrument, as long as he plays that > all-important bass note. The occasional figure is all he needs to > read to understand what harmony to play. The aim is to minimise the > amount to be read, so that the player can concentrate on how he > plays, and not clog his brain with having to filter out the > essentials from an excess of information. > > -o-O-o- > > Tablature is one big con. Those who cannot read it (particularly > those who are familiar with staff notation) are often amazed at the > skill of the lutenist in learning to cope with what appears to be an > incredibly complicated antique system of notation. "Wow! How on > earth can you read that?" Lute players, on the other hand, smile, > knowing that reading tablature is an absolute doddle. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart McCoy. > > > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:27 AM > Subject: Staff Notation/Tablature > > > > Dear Howard and Vance, > > > > I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative > virtues of > > staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature > means I have > > little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed > to play a > > fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key > is often a > > mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' > in staff > > nota
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Roman: I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles this term has come to mean as you have described, in other circles, especially where there is a Jewish back ground haunted by memories of the holocaust, you and Michael are totally off base. I can think of no four letter word, invective or insult that would prick the heart of an individual whose family was decimated by the horrors of WWII and the holocaust than to be referred to as a Nazi. To prove a point go out into the street and use the work Nigger to a black man and see what happens. Words do mean something and this event has crossed the line. It seems to me that those who come from a Liberal/Socialist point of view seem to think of every body who is conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to stoop to that level. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) > >> They have to listen to this neo > >> nazi bastard all the time, > > > > You are going much too far. > > > > Please read your statements carefully before you send > > them to the world. > > I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. > > B.H. > Also: > Bernd, > In the States word "nazi" is now divorced from its original meaning and is > used rather indiscriminately. > In NYC there is a soup restaurant, whose owner likes to decide which soup > each particular customer has to have, and if you don't like that then you > may eat elsewhere. He is known as the "soup nazi". > RT > __ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://turovsky.org > http://polyhymnion.org > > >
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
At 06:02 PM 12/9/2003 +, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Even Campion could >hardly have written all his guitar music using seven different scordature in >staff notation. We do not know that. If the music was written in tablature, it could very well have been written in pitch notation as well. The point to consider is that in his own reference to the Novelles Decouverts, Campion said this: Yet, I have conformed to the use of tablature, in a book of guitar pieces that I published, where there are 8 different manners of tuning: in this case the tablature is useful; but those who wish to use it, must first well know their fingerboard by music (Traité d'accompagnement et de composition selon la regle des octaves de musique, Oeuvre second, Paris, 1716). The question, then as now, is not and either/or proposition. Whatever the reason one uses tablature, without a thorough theoretical understanding of the music, you learn to play by rote. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
RE: Staff Notation/Tablature
At 10:07 AM 12/9/2003 -0500, Fred Bone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Tablature is a tool that is ripe for abuse. If it's used as a >method to avoid the academic study of counterpoint, the practitioner is >ill-served in the long run. This may be recognized historically (if I can >trust the translation) by the quote from the 17th century Milleran >manuscript: > >Lecteur, si tu ne sais que c'est que Tablature, > >Mourant tu seras sot par Becare, & nature, > >Ainsi ne m'ouvre pas si tu n'y connois rien, > >De lire sans savoir, c'est un fol entretien. > > > >Translation: Reader, if you only know what tablature is, Dying you will be >ignorant of major keys and things natural, So don't open me if you don't >know anything about it, Reading without understanding is a foolish >enterprise. Thank you for this quote. Should go into my article http://www.orphee.com/trans/trans.html as a further support of the comments by Perrine and Campion. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
At 04:25 AM 12/9/2003 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >The problem with standard notation is its lack of specificity. You can >standard >notate a Cmaj triad and play it many different places on the neck. Now voice >leading would give you some clues, but not always, especially if you have many >strings like the lute That is not entirely correct. A single Cmaj triad would function as you say. But a Cmaj triad within the _context of a given passage_, may be required to be played in the first position, or in the ninth or even higher. Good sight readers would immediately be able to determine, on sight, exactly where, and with what fingers to press the strings and produce the triad. Even without any fingering indications. > The benefit of standard notation is its specificity, At the top of this post your stated that "The problem with standard notation is its lack of specificity." So which is it? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Tab/Staff and the rest of it
It's no surprise that Tom Beck, who has spent more than half a century with staff notation and a few weeks with tablature, would be less at home with tablature. If you play from tab enough, you will start to hear it, recognize tab signs with pitches (just as you learned to recognize those funny little dots as pitches), and see the voice-leading. HP
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
At 07:15 AM 12/9/2003 -0500, Miles Dempster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Yes Tom. > >But why do guitarists have to read from a single staff (transposed an >octave)? They don't have to and guitar music on two staves is quite a common phenomenon these days. See for example this: http://www.orphee.com/solos/bachp-3.gif Mainly, the reason _most_ guitar music is written the way it is, is due to tradition. One of he earliest examples of guitar music in pitch notation is the statement of the theme of the Fugue in the Sanz book. 1674. It was written on a single staff an octave higher. The earliest known guitar tutor which uses pitch notation was published in Paris in 1758. Here is an example of what it looked like: http://www.orphee.com/methods/don-xaml.gif It could be argued that the reason guitarists had chosen a violinistic notation and not the grand staff, was because most of them were better acquainted with the violin rather than with the harpsichord or piano. Most of the tutors published in France between 1758 and the French Revolution, were written in parallel pitch notation and tablature, where the pitch notation was written on a single staff and an octave higher. After the French revolution, the tablature was dropped altogether and the pitch notation remained as it was. Beginning with the Baillon tutor of 1770, there was a movement which tried to alter the violinistic nature of the notation in which no attempt was made to distinguish between the voices, and derive a system which would write guitar music "a l'instar de la harpe ou du piano". The main figures in this movement were Jean-Baptiste Phillis, Simon Molitor and later on, Sor and Giuliani. There was a brief experiment in grand staff notation, first suggested by Doisy in 1801, and then tried by Fernando Sor and his publisher Pleyel in the Fantasia Op. 7 in c minor, but that never caught on. >I find that it really obscures the voice leading That depends on how it is notated, and if the music is mainly chordal, or mainly melodic. The single staff can easily portray accurately 3 voices. 4 voices can be a problem, but they do not occur in the majority of original guitar music, and only in transcription, the WTC for example, a secondary staff can become necessary. If one transcribes lute music and adheres to the way the music actually sounds on the lute, then there is no problem. The problem begins when voice leading becomes a theoretical adventure that can never be realized on the lute, and therefore, also not on the guitar. For a fuller discussion of these issues, see: http://www.orphee.com/trans/trans.html Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Kapsberger tabs
David Tappan at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Can anyone direct me to available chitarrone tabulatures for > Kapsberger's Toccata arpegiata and Aria di Fiorenza as performed by > Paul O'Dette? > > By the way, I've been a subscriber to this list for about three > years, although mostly as a passive reader. While I dread the > periodic flame wars, I find them easy to ignore. I must say that my > occasional requests for information and advice have always been > answered with the utmost courtesy and caring. You've been very > helpful to me. Thanks much. > > I especially enjoy reading Howard Posner's comments whenever they appear. Nothing particularly enjoyable about this one, I'm afraid: Both pieces are in his Libro Primo d'Intavolatura di Chitarrone (1604) on pages 7 and 20. There is a 1982 S.P.E.S. facsimile of that and two other Kapsberger books; no. 46 in the series.
Re: Size of lute world
At 12:37 AM 12/10/2003 +0900, Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From Stan Beuten's website http://www.lutebooks.com/: > >The Method for the Renaissance Lute sold more than 20,000 copies > >If most of those buyers were lutenists, then the size of the lute >world is bigger than I thought. What the web site is not telling you is how many years it took to sell 20,000 copies, even if you take the number quoted at face value, and how many copies were sold, let's say, during the last 5 years. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
As usual Stewart has said it all and said it succinctly. I would only add a couple of comments. When instrumental music began to be written or printed towards the end of the 15th century the method of musical notation in general use for vocal music was unsuitable for the purpose since it didn't necessarily indicate the actual pitch at which the music was to be performed and method of indicating time and rhythm was very complex. Other instruments, including keyboard instruments and the violin also used tablature. By the time Campion and Perrine expressed a view this had radically changed. Even Campion could hardly have written all his guitar music using seven different scordature in staff notation. Tablature is much simpler and easier both to hand copy and to engrave or print - important considerations in the 16th and 17th centuries. Anyone who has ever tried writing out or playing series of 5-part chords for the baroque guitar in staff notation, or even in tablature, could hardly fail to see the logic of alfabeto - a form of notation perfectly suited for its purpose. As Stewart says - its a doddle because it is perfectly adapted to the instrument! Monica - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Lute Net <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Staff Notation/Tablature > Dear Tom, > > The purpose of notation is to enable the performer to reproduce > music. To that extent the nature of the notation is determined by > what the performer is expected to play. Let's look at specific > examples: > > a) A very simple single-line melody for a beginner on the lute. > Tablature is easier than staff notation. With staff notation the > player's brain has to think twice: first he reads something which > tells him the pitch of a note; then he has to convert that pitch > into deciding where the note is to be played on his instrument. Even > if there is no choice of position on the neck, there is still that > constant conversion of information going on in the player's brain. > Tablature by-passes all that irrelevant information about pitch. It > goes straight to the instrument, and our brain has just one job to > do, not two. > > b) A fifteenth-century piece of music, where a lutenist will play a > single melodic line with an extremely complex rhythm. The ideal > notation would be staff notation, not tablature, because of the > complex rhythms. Staff notation combines rhythm and pitch into a > single note, whereas tablature separates them into two entities. The > lutenist would be forever glancing up to the rhythm signs, his brain > desperately tring to wed the complex rhythms with the tablature > letters or numbers underneath. > > c) A piece of polyphony for three voices with complex rhythms. > Tablature wins the day here, because joining three sets of > intertwined complex rhythms into one set of rhythm signs simplifies > what rhythm the player needs to consider. For example, a succession > of dotted crotchets each followed by a quaver in one part, while the > same thing occurs starting one crotchet later in another part, will > look mighty complicated in staff notation. In tablature it will > appear as a simple succession of quavers. The player would need only > to read the first (or only) rhythm sign (quaver), and he could then > concentrate on the letters or numbers on the stave without having to > worry about rhythm at all. > > d) Music for a blind lutenist learning the lute from scratch. His > teacher needs to tell him which string to pluck with his right hand, > and at which fret he is to put his left-hand finger. That's two > pieces of information for every note. Here German tablature is best, > because both those pieces of information are combined into one > symbol - a letter or a number. > > e) An early 17th-century song for an Italian guitarist to strum an > accompaniment. He doesn't need the detail supplied by staff notation > and tablature. Neither notation will suit his purpose. He just needs > to know which chord to strum. The ideal notation for him is > alfabeto, where all the common chords are given a letter of the > alphabet. He reads just one letter for a five-note chord - just one > piece of information to take in, not five. > > f) Most music from 1600-1750 (with a big "more or less"), where the > harpsichord, lute, theorbo, harp, or any chordal instrument supplies > the bass line, together with suitable harmony where appropriate or > where possible. Figured bass is best here. All the brain needs to > read is each bass note. If the harmony were written out in full, he > would have too much to read. Instead he can busk whatever suits him, > the occasion and his instrument, as long as he plays that > all-important bass note. The occasional figure is all he needs to > read to understand what harmony to play. The aim is to minimise the > amount to be read, so that the player can concentrate on how he > plays, and not clog his brai
Pieces similar to "A Toye".
In the UC Berkeley music library I saw an edition of Diana (Diane?) Poulton's introduction to the lute. It has a companion book of pieces to study. Piece #1 in this book was "A Toye" in C major. I like this piece. Unfortunately, Poulton's book gave no composer. Can anyone suggest how to find pieces of similar style, and of the same or slightly greater difficulty? Does anyone know the composer?
Kapsberger tabs
Can anyone direct me to available chitarrone tabulatures for Kapsberger's Toccata arpegiata and Aria di Fiorenza as performed by Paul O'Dette? By the way, I've been a subscriber to this list for about three years, although mostly as a passive reader. While I dread the periodic flame wars, I find them easy to ignore. I must say that my occasional requests for information and advice have always been answered with the utmost courtesy and caring. You've been very helpful to me. Thanks much. I especially enjoy reading Howard Posner's comments whenever they appear. Thanks again. Dave Tappan Box 304 Pebble Beach, CA 93953 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 831.641.0566
Tab/Staff and the rest of it
HI all, and many thanks to those who answered my query about tab versus staff notation, and also about the left and right hands. So many points have been made, that I will try to answer them all in one letter. Although I appreciate the fact tab makes clear exactly where to place the fingers, which string to use, and the like, it does, as others point out, leave vital aspects of the music unclear, especially the inner voices, and their exact relationship to each other. Sure, I'm a beginner on the lute, but as a professional musician it does seem to me that these aspects are left, at least to some extent, to the taste of the performer. I have no objection to this, quite the contrary, but it does appear to mean that one has to 'guess' what one ought to do rather more than is the case with staff notation. Another point that seems slightly superfluous is the wide variety of different note values. I must confess that I have all my lute music from Wayne's wonderful website, and there are pieces which seem to have 64th notes, where a 16th note a most would do. There appears to be no consistency about the notation, and I often find myself stuck between dotted 64th notes and 128th notes or whatever, where a few good old 1/4 notes etc. would do the trick just as well. Indeed Art Robb, who built my lute, has just given me some music distributed by the lute society of GB, and there they make use of 1/4 notes and the like, and this makes life a great deal easier. And in view of the fact that so much lute music has been transcribed for the guitar, it seems to me that one could do the same for the lute without losing overmuch. Even the string to be used can be indicated, common in guitar music, and the prospective lutenist could much more easily see and hear what awaits. Of course learning tab is, in the last resort, part of it. My reasons for wondering about tab versus staff are not laziness or inability. I am one of those sad 'anoraks' that can't get enough of music and when I was a student one of my tutors, whom my mother and I met on the way to the opera, actually asked her whether it was possible to get me to work less hard. So I'm enjoying learning tab, it's just that, as others have suggested, those who come from the guitar and are less 'anoraky' than I am, could very easily be put off at the sight of Wayne's wonderful website. Indeed, when I got the lute and saw what awaited me, I had moments of doubt myself, soon dispelled by the thought of all the pleasure involved in discovering this new world and language. But that is the 'anorak's' approach. The more normal musician is far more likely to stick with the guitar and say what the heck! Indeed, had I not been tempted to get a lute because of my tendonitis, that's what I would have done, too. There's plenty of lute music transcribed for the guitar, so why go to the bother of buying an expensive instrument to attempt to play music that one can't even read?! I put it polemically, so that the problem, hinted at by some, emerges more clearly. Then the question of key. I know Jazz musicians and such folk can do just about anything and not be able to read a note of music, and I admire them for it. But I am not one of them, know nothing about Jazz, nor any form of popular music. That was, in my parents' eyes, the work of the Devil when I was a kid and light music for us was Johann Strauss or Franz Lehar. I still remember with astonishment a friend at Oxford telling me he would be rising early the next morning in order to be in time to get a new record by a group known as 'The Beatles' (or 'Beetles'?). I'd never heard of them, and not much has changed. My wife has made valiant efforts to correct this over the 34 years of our marriage, but to no avail. She's learned to live with it… Of particular interest was the information Stewart McCoy and Mathias posted about left-hand fingering. I do find that one tends to use the 4th finger much more on the lute than on the guitar. On the guitar the 4th finger tends to be used, in conjunction with the 2nd, at least in my case, when playing 10ths or certain other chords. The fact that on the lute the third lies between the 3rd and 4th string and not, as with the guitar, between the 2nd and 3rd strings, seems very much to influence the nature of the music. Much more of it takes place on the lower strings than is the case with the guitar, and there appear to be more chords which require the use of 4-2, and the case with many runs also need the 4th. On the guitar shifts of position frequently obviate the kinds of thing that seem fairly common of the lute, and I tend to use fingers 1-2-3 in scales, changing position as required. 4 is by and large used in extremis, i.e. when it's more sensible than hopping around the fingerboard to find the same note somewhere else. The 2-4 pattern that Mathias suggested would not do for do for me, as it would merely exacerbate the tendoni
Fwd: Re: Something useful and nice for our newbies
How about John Dowland's Preludium (from the Board Ms)? A most beautiful and easy English piece. It also makes a nice prelude to the Lachrimae Pavan. (Pickering, or Folger Ms). Best Wishes Ron Fletcher (UK) -Original Message- From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Arto Wikla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:24:32 +0900 Subject: Re: Something useful and nice for our newbies >I suggest a new thread, where we recommend beautiful, but not too >difficult pieces >English renaissance stuff: > >- Holborne " Galliard "Hegh Ho Holiday" (39a and 39b) I sure wouldn't consider that one easy! I'm trying to think of easy pieces that don't have ANY difficult spots. It seems there is always one awkward bit in every piece. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Size of lute world
From Stan Beuten's website http://www.lutebooks.com/: >The Method for the Renaissance Lute sold more than 20,000 copies If most of those buyers were lutenists, then the size of the lute world is bigger than I thought. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ --
Re: Something useful and nice for our newbies
>I suggest a new thread, where we recommend beautiful, but not too >difficult pieces >English renaissance stuff: > >- Holborne " Galliard "Hegh Ho Holiday" (39a and 39b) I sure wouldn't consider that one easy! I'm trying to think of easy pieces that don't have ANY difficult spots. It seems there is always one awkward bit in every piece. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: Something useful and nice for our newbies
> > I think - as many do - that it is a good idea to start lute playing >> by a lute in renaissance tuning. >I disagree emphatically. Weiss and Hagen didn't, and look where it took >them. >RT That is a good point. It just depends what you are in to. BTW, much of Roman's alter-ego's 'S' stuff is not too difficult. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: Lute in consort
Dear Atilla, You ask a very interesting question. My view is that it all depends what the music is like. If it is a polyphonic piece (like a motet), the lute should track the individual polyphonic lines, as far as it is able, and not fill out chords to enrich the texture. Dance music, on the other hand, tends to consist of a melody, which may or may not have harmony of some kind accompanying it. The dances of Arbeau (1589), for example, are nearly all just single-line melodies without accompaniment. So too are the dances of Playford (1651). The dances published in France by Attaingnant and Gervaise appeared in many different guises: arranged for solo lute, for cittern, for 4-course guitar, or for four instruments (like viols, flutes or recorders) playing a single line. The harmony, especially for the cittern, is fairly perfunctory, because of the limitations of the instrument. The arrangements for four instruments are often a bit rough and ready, with occasional consecutives and such like. For me these are not polyphonic pieces where the individual lines are important, so I would happy for a lute not to follow the polyphony too closely. If the line-up is top and bottom only, for example the top line played on a recorder and the bottom part played on a bass viol, I think the lute could happily improvise a pseudo continuo part quite effectively. If, on the other hand, there were four instruments playing single lines, I would expect the lutenist to keep at least half an eye on what they were doing, and perhaps double some snippets of an interesting counter-melody which Gervaise might have introduced in a lower part. In the past, when I have arranged music by Gervaise for lutes and other fretted instruments, I have tended to follow his part-writing too closely. Now I feel that the most important thing is to create something idiomatic for the instrument, something easy to play, so that you can play it with oomph, and give the dancers a lift. Ultimately I think you should feel free to do what you think works best. Clearly there was a lot of flexibility in 16th-century performances, adapting to whatever circumstances prevailed. By the way, I don't think Nigel North's book will help you very much with Gervaise and Susato. He writes mainly about later music (17th/18th century) and how it may be played on the theorbo. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: "Erdodi Attila" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:14 PM Subject: Lute in consort > Thanks for the tuning advices. > > And another question: > What is the role of the lute in a middle-renaissance consort? > (Susato, Gervaise etc.) > Play chords in continuo-style or play the lower voices? > I've tried to buy Nigel North's book, but I cannot find it in Hungary. > > Atilla Erdodi > > >
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Dear Tom, The purpose of notation is to enable the performer to reproduce music. To that extent the nature of the notation is determined by what the performer is expected to play. Let's look at specific examples: a) A very simple single-line melody for a beginner on the lute. Tablature is easier than staff notation. With staff notation the player's brain has to think twice: first he reads something which tells him the pitch of a note; then he has to convert that pitch into deciding where the note is to be played on his instrument. Even if there is no choice of position on the neck, there is still that constant conversion of information going on in the player's brain. Tablature by-passes all that irrelevant information about pitch. It goes straight to the instrument, and our brain has just one job to do, not two. b) A fifteenth-century piece of music, where a lutenist will play a single melodic line with an extremely complex rhythm. The ideal notation would be staff notation, not tablature, because of the complex rhythms. Staff notation combines rhythm and pitch into a single note, whereas tablature separates them into two entities. The lutenist would be forever glancing up to the rhythm signs, his brain desperately tring to wed the complex rhythms with the tablature letters or numbers underneath. c) A piece of polyphony for three voices with complex rhythms. Tablature wins the day here, because joining three sets of intertwined complex rhythms into one set of rhythm signs simplifies what rhythm the player needs to consider. For example, a succession of dotted crotchets each followed by a quaver in one part, while the same thing occurs starting one crotchet later in another part, will look mighty complicated in staff notation. In tablature it will appear as a simple succession of quavers. The player would need only to read the first (or only) rhythm sign (quaver), and he could then concentrate on the letters or numbers on the stave without having to worry about rhythm at all. d) Music for a blind lutenist learning the lute from scratch. His teacher needs to tell him which string to pluck with his right hand, and at which fret he is to put his left-hand finger. That's two pieces of information for every note. Here German tablature is best, because both those pieces of information are combined into one symbol - a letter or a number. e) An early 17th-century song for an Italian guitarist to strum an accompaniment. He doesn't need the detail supplied by staff notation and tablature. Neither notation will suit his purpose. He just needs to know which chord to strum. The ideal notation for him is alfabeto, where all the common chords are given a letter of the alphabet. He reads just one letter for a five-note chord - just one piece of information to take in, not five. f) Most music from 1600-1750 (with a big "more or less"), where the harpsichord, lute, theorbo, harp, or any chordal instrument supplies the bass line, together with suitable harmony where appropriate or where possible. Figured bass is best here. All the brain needs to read is each bass note. If the harmony were written out in full, he would have too much to read. Instead he can busk whatever suits him, the occasion and his instrument, as long as he plays that all-important bass note. The occasional figure is all he needs to read to understand what harmony to play. The aim is to minimise the amount to be read, so that the player can concentrate on how he plays, and not clog his brain with having to filter out the essentials from an excess of information. -o-O-o- Tablature is one big con. Those who cannot read it (particularly those who are familiar with staff notation) are often amazed at the skill of the lutenist in learning to cope with what appears to be an incredibly complicated antique system of notation. "Wow! How on earth can you read that?" Lute players, on the other hand, smile, knowing that reading tablature is an absolute doddle. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:27 AM Subject: Staff Notation/Tablature > Dear Howard and Vance, > > I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative virtues of > staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I have > little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to play a > fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is often a > mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in staff > notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The letter 'd' > in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents about > three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in staff > notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to play it, that > I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, am > begin
RE: Staff Notation/Tablature
There's been so many wonderful comments on this subject, and the comment below by Doctor Oakroot is very well stated. If I may I further offer the opinion that, while tablature is an efficient language choice for the experienced lutenist, the learning of standard notation greatly facilitates the learning of theory for the student with no previous experience with music. Tablature is a tool that is ripe for abuse. If it's used as a method to avoid the academic study of counterpoint, the practitioner is ill-served in the long run. This may be recognized historically (if I can trust the translation) by the quote from the 17th century Milleran manuscript: Lecteur, si tu ne sais que cest que Tablature, Mourant tu seras sot par Becare, & nature, Ainsi ne mouvre pas si tu ny connois rien, De lire sans savoir, cest un fol entretien. Translation: Reader, if you only know what tablature is, Dying you will be ignorant of major keys and things natural, So dont open me if you dont know anything about it, Reading without understanding is a foolish enterprise. Regards to all, Fred Bone -Original Message- From: Doctor Oakroot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 8:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Staff Notation/Tablature Well, tab is easy to sight read mechanically, since it tells you exactly what to do (except for how long to hold each note), but as Tom says, it's far inferior to staff notation as a musical description of the intended sound. Christopher Schaub wrote: > The problem with standard notation is its lack of specificity. You can > standard > notate a Cmaj triad and play it many different places on the neck. Now > voice > leading would give you some clues, but not always, especially if you have > many > strings like the lute -- the bass could be an open string or fretted -- a > very > different sound! Tab takes away all of the mystery and preserves the > sonority > of the composer's original intent, even if you're sight reading. Sight > reading > tab is a ton easier than standard notation. Once you get good at reading > tab, > you'll know what I mean. The benefit of standard notation is its > specificity, > but I'd much rather have the ease of reading tab on something like the > lute or > guitar, especially if sight reading a solo piece. Standard notation is > great > for noting ties and dynamics etc, but you can write this into your tab > part. > Just my two cents. > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Dear Howard and Vance, >> >> I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative >> virtues of >> >> staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I >> have >> >> little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to >> play a >> fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is >> often a >> >> mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in >> staff >> notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The >> letter 'd' >> in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents >> about >> three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in >> staff >> notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to >> play >> it, that >> I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, >> am >> beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but >> find >> sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the >> context >> what comes >> (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first >> example >> that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what one >> would >> >> expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read >> letter >> for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to >> read >> any >> form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. >> Why, >> then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then >> be in >> the >> same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly >> light >> years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a >> glance. >> To >> this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers >> >> Tom Beck >> >> > > > -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Le Roy
Has anyone a facsimile copy of one of Le Roy's Branles de Malte? (No commercial gain intended!!) I am preparing a presentation of music related to Malta. I have a copy in Fronimo (thanks to Jason) and have made a staff notation transcription. It would be nice to include a sample of the original. It need only be a line or so. If anyone can help I would be most grateful. Anthony - Birthdays? Anniversaries? Send a gift online from http://shop.di-ve.com . FREE DELIVERY TO MALTA ADDRESSES
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Well, tab is easy to sight read mechanically, since it tells you exactly what to do (except for how long to hold each note), but as Tom says, it's far inferior to staff notation as a musical description of the intended sound. Christopher Schaub wrote: > The problem with standard notation is its lack of specificity. You can > standard > notate a Cmaj triad and play it many different places on the neck. Now > voice > leading would give you some clues, but not always, especially if you have > many > strings like the lute -- the bass could be an open string or fretted -- a > very > different sound! Tab takes away all of the mystery and preserves the > sonority > of the composer's original intent, even if you're sight reading. Sight > reading > tab is a ton easier than standard notation. Once you get good at reading > tab, > you'll know what I mean. The benefit of standard notation is its > specificity, > but I'd much rather have the ease of reading tab on something like the > lute or > guitar, especially if sight reading a solo piece. Standard notation is > great > for noting ties and dynamics etc, but you can write this into your tab > part. > Just my two cents. > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Dear Howard and Vance, >> >> I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative >> virtues of >> >> staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I >> have >> >> little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to >> play a >> fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is >> often a >> >> mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in >> staff >> notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The >> letter 'd' >> in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents >> about >> three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in >> staff >> notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to >> play >> it, that >> I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, >> am >> beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but >> find >> sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the >> context >> what comes >> (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first >> example >> that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what one >> would >> >> expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read >> letter >> for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to >> read >> any >> form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. >> Why, >> then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then >> be in >> the >> same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly >> light >> years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a >> glance. >> To >> this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers >> >> Tom Beck >> >> > > > -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Actually most guitarists use fingerings and play fingerings which would be something very similar to playing from tablature. Thomas Am Die, 2003-12-09 um 13.25 schrieb Christopher Schaub: > The problem with standard notation is its lack of specificity. You can standard > notate a Cmaj triad and play it many different places on the neck. Now voice > leading would give you some clues, but not always, especially if you have many > strings like the lute -- the bass could be an open string or fretted -- a very > different sound! Tab takes away all of the mystery and preserves the sonority > of the composer's original intent, even if you're sight reading. Sight reading > tab is a ton easier than standard notation. Once you get good at reading tab, > you'll know what I mean. The benefit of standard notation is its specificity, > but I'd much rather have the ease of reading tab on something like the lute or > guitar, especially if sight reading a solo piece. Standard notation is great > for noting ties and dynamics etc, but you can write this into your tab part. > Just my two cents. > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Dear Howard and Vance, > > > > I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative virtues of > > > > staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I have > > > > little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to play a > > fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is often a > > > > mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in staff > > notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The > > letter 'd' > > in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents about > > three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in staff > > notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to play > > it, that > > I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, am > > beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but find > > sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the context > > what comes > > (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first example > > that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what one would > > > > expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read letter > > for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to read > > any > > form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. Why, > > then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then be in > > the > > same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly light > > years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a glance. > > To > > this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers > > > > Tom Beck > > > > -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Hi Tom! I started the same way - not knowing which note I'm actually playing but in the meantime I "see" the tones behind tabulature letters and it doesn't make too much difference if I'm playing staff notation or tabulature. A while ago we had the topic of scales on the lute and here is one example when it makes sense to practice scales - you will get a feeling for the notes you are playing. Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2003-12-09 um 12.27 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Dear Howard and Vance, > > I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative virtues of > staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I have > little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to play a > fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is often a > mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in staff > notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The letter 'd' > in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents about > three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in staff > notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to play it, that > I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, am > beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but find > sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the context what > comes > (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first example > that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what one would > expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read letter > for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to read any > form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. Why, > then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then be in the > same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly light > years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a glance. To > this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers > > Tom Beck -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
The fact is tablature, at least Renaissance and Baroque tablatures, are much more accurate that as far as notation is concerned, than a conventional notation system. True it lacks certain things, such as how long bass notes are supposed to be held for, (although it is sometimes indicated). It also does not allow the performer to explore other fingering possibilities. You say, "the key is often a mystery" and "what looks like a third in staff notation , can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh...???". I have come to the lute, from the classical guitar world, with its very strict and conventional set of rules. The moment I understood tablature, I understood its superiority for the instrument. Over time, you will find that you will read tablature like staff notation. I myself, like many other lutenists, can sing you back a melody by just reading the tablature. It comes naturally when you are confident with your instrument. Sight reading becomes a breeze, (as a matter of fact, I find that learning by heart is the only drawback, because sight reading is so easy, one does not have to work out positions, and thus one becomes lazy in memorizing). As for the key you are playing in, since when does one have to see the notes, to understand what key you are playing in? Ask any of the older jazz musicians or folk artists who learned music by ear and never learned how to read musicthey don`t have a problem with the key. A jazzman will play you a standard in any key you want, at a moment`s notice, without knowing how to read music.. A conventional notation system is nothing but a crutch to lean on, drop the crutch and learn how to walk another way. Why, then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then be in the same position as the guitarist BTW, guitar music back in Baroque times, was also written in tablature..so its nothing new... A conventional notation system is nothing but a crutch to lean on, drop the crutch and learn how to walk another way. Bruno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Dear Howard and Vance, > >I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative virtues of >staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I have >little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to play a >fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is often a >mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in staff >notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The letter 'd' >in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents about >three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in staff >notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to play it, that >I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, am >beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but find >sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the context what comes >(or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first example >that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what one would >expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read letter >for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to read any >form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. Why, >then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then be in the >same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly light >years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a glance. To >this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers > >Tom Beck > > > > > > >
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
I have found adjusting to tablature very simple and if anything it helps my sight reading. I am actually to the point where I can figure out the tune of a simple piece just by looking at it. There is one disadvantage which I am not sure if I should blame on the notation system however. I find it much more difficult to memorize a lute piece than a classical guitar piece. Yes, I'm older now and the lute is new, but I get lost trying to remember even the simplest pieces by heart. I have also noticed that in every lute concert I have attended the performer plays off of a score (except when O'Dette strolls in from the back of the hall!) but most guitarists play all but the most recently composed pieces from memory. Is there something about seeing the notes and chord structure that promotes understanding and memorization? > >--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Dear Howard and Vance, >> >> I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative >virtues of >> >> staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means >I have >> >> little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to >play a >> fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is >often a >> >> mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in >staff >> notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. >The >> letter 'd' >> in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents >about >> three entirely different notes. Switch to German tablature and you won't have that problem!!!
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Tom, you may find it hard to believe, but after some practising you can "hear" tablature. I still have difficulties hearing the midrange of d-minor tablature music, though. Ren. tab is fine for me. g Zitat von [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to play it
Re: Size of the lute world
At 22:02 08-12-2003 -0500, Matanya Ophee wrote: >At 01:35 PM 12/8/2003 -0800, Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>We have to remember that lute players, then as now, could read staff >>notation, and played continuo from the first days of continuo, and often >>played obbligato parts, like those by Bach, Handel and Vivaldi, from staff >>notation. They did not have to write solo music in tablature, but chose to >>do so because the system was useful. > >I have no argument with this historical account, except to say that it does >not deal with the question at hand. Roman has argued that the free >availability of facsimiles of lute tablatures will be useful in >proselytizing the lute. The problem, taken from the point of view of the >idea of increasing the size of the lute world, the subject line of this >thread, is not what lute players do or can do, but what is the situation >among those who are not yet lute players. Guitar transcriptions of lute music can be very useful to recruit lute-players. Myrna Sislen did a great job in an edition from the early 70s, mostly from Robert Dowland's book. It introduced me to lute music, via guitar. But I would probably have to be marooned somewhere, without a choice, to pick up the Sislen book again, now that I have tried the real thing. Early (i.e. 6-course) lute music would seem to be better suited to entice guitarists, since no modifications are necessary (except possibly a capo). Chordially, Arne.
Re: soundboard wood from 1400-1800
On Monday 08 December 2003 22:32, Patrick H wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/12/08/stradivarius.secret.ap/index.htm >l > > This is an interesting story about the wood that was used by Stradivari; > the "Little Ice Age" that gripped Europe from the mid-1400s until the > mid-1800s that slowed tree growth and yielded uncommonly dense Alpine > spruce. What does this mean for us? Were soundboards like this used for > lutes, and is it possible for us to replicate this kind of wood. > > Patrick > There are still areas where wood has grown very slowly. Bosnia had/has large amounts of excellent wood, but south of Germany also still has the quality of Stradivari wood. I go every year with my wife to the south of Germany to buy wood for her violins (she's a violinmaker) and digging between huge piles of wood in the specialized carpenters sheds you get a nose for what is nice and what's not + everything in between. The price of small pieces reflects clearly the quality. For lutes to top needs to be an excellent class of wood if you want a top class instrument. It's I think of major importance for the sound quality but less for a very strong sound as Arto says. A very strong sound is mostly based on how the lutemaker tunes all the different pieces inside: thickness of the top, location of bars inside etc. For a violin I know that tuning exists literally (at least my wife is doing it like that) of a loop: throwing a fine material on the instrument blades and connecting a frequency synthesizer to it and looking at the patterns, removing slight pieces of the wood and test again. With lutes is surely different. Taco
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
The problem with standard notation is its lack of specificity. You can standard notate a Cmaj triad and play it many different places on the neck. Now voice leading would give you some clues, but not always, especially if you have many strings like the lute -- the bass could be an open string or fretted -- a very different sound! Tab takes away all of the mystery and preserves the sonority of the composer's original intent, even if you're sight reading. Sight reading tab is a ton easier than standard notation. Once you get good at reading tab, you'll know what I mean. The benefit of standard notation is its specificity, but I'd much rather have the ease of reading tab on something like the lute or guitar, especially if sight reading a solo piece. Standard notation is great for noting ties and dynamics etc, but you can write this into your tab part. Just my two cents. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Dear Howard and Vance, > > I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative virtues of > > staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I have > > little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to play a > fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is often a > > mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in staff > notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The > letter 'd' > in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents about > three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in staff > notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to play > it, that > I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, am > beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but find > sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the context > what comes > (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first example > that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what one would > > expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read letter > for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to read > any > form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. Why, > then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then be in > the > same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly light > years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a glance. > To > this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers > > Tom Beck > >
Tablature/Staff Notation
Miles, you write 'But why do guitarists have to read from a single staff (transposed an octave)? I find that it really obscures the voice leading?' I don't really see the problem. I've played the piano and clarinet as well, and just take things as they come. My point, such as it was, is that that in the case of the other instruments I've played I can see what's going on in all parameters at a glance, and hear it, I find this difficult with tablature. Cheers Tom
Lute in consort
Thanks for the tuning advices. And another question: What is the role of the lute in a middle-renaissance consort? (Susato, Gervaise etc.) Play chords in continuo-style or play the lower voices? I've tried to buy Nigel North's book, but I cannot find it in Hungary. Atilla Erdodi
Size of lute world that was
Herman wrote: 1. first you play the music on guitar, you fall in love with it, 2. then you realize it's for lute, 3. you find out it's originally written in tablature, 4. you find a few tablatures on the internet and you realize it's actually easier and more accurate to read this music in tablature than in staff notation. 5. you buy a lute. 6. you buy facsimiles or a modern editions in tablature. No profound comments, except to say that's exactly what happened to me and how I got started. Cheers Tom
Re: Staff Notation/Tablature
Yes Tom. But why do guitarists have to read from a single staff (transposed an octave)? I find that it really obscures the voice leading? Miles Dempster On Tuesday, December 9, 2003, at 06:27 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Dear Howard and Vance, > > I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative > virtues of > staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means > I have > little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to > play a > fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is > often a > mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in > staff > notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. > The letter 'd' > in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents > about > three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in > staff > notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to > play it, that > I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, > am > beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but > find > sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the > context what comes > (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first > example > that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what > one would > expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read > letter > for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to > read any > form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. > Why, > then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would > then be in the > same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly > light > years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a > glance. To > this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers > > Tom Beck > >
Staff Notation/Tablature
Dear Howard and Vance, I was very interested to read your comments regarding the relative virtues of staff notation and tablature. Being a beginner, I find tablature means I have little or no idea which notes I am playing, whether I am supposed to play a fifth, an octave or indeed what interval is intended. Even the key is often a mystery (I do not have absolute pitch) What looks like a 'third' in staff notation can turn out to be anything between a second and a seventh. The letter 'd' in the first chord or two of Greensleeves, I discovered, represents about three entirely different notes. Of course my musical origins are in staff notation, and I am so used to hearing what I read before I even try to play it, that I find it very difficult to adapt to the new notation. I have managed, am beginning to recognise what is an octave, a scale, and the like, but find sight-reading very difficult. In staff notation one knows from the context what comes (or could come) next. To find a b-flat in a-major (to take the first example that occurs to me) would be highly significant, and not at all what one would expect. In tablature none of this seems possible, i.e. I have to read letter for letter (I imagine like some poor beginner in music, struggling to read any form of notation), rather than in what I would consider a 'total way'. Why, then, would it be so wrong to use normal staff notation? One would then be in the same position as the guitarist (and lute and guitar are not exactly light years apart), able to read and above all hear what was going on at a glance. To this beginner at least, that seems a definite advantage. Cheers Tom Beck
Re: Size of the lute world
Well said Tim, But you don't need police statistics to note the full moon phenomenon, just ask any bartender or lycanthrope. Best, Jon
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Thanks, Howard. That's really quite funny. Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: "Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 9:03 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) And as long as I've sort of touched on it, I know this is OT, but in light of recent remarks by Roman, Stewart and Matanya, the following excerpt from a set of program notes I recently finished somehow seems relevant: "While in the hospital recuperating from his heart attack, Shostakovich read through a collection of poems by Alexander Blok The dark tone of Blok¹s poems must have matched Shostakovich¹s mood. When the cellist Mstislav Rostropovich, a longtime friend, asked him to compose songs for cello and soprano for Rostropovich and his wife, Galina Vishnevskaya, Shostakovich turned to Blok¹s poems. A few days after he finished the cycle on February 3, 1967, he told a visiting friend that though he had conceived it well before Rostropovich¹s request, he was unable to compose it until he found a bottle of brandy that his wifewho was otherwise vigilant and ruthless in keeping her ailing husband away from potentially harmful substanceshad not hidden thoroughly enough. After a reviving shot of the brandy, Shostakovich said, he finished the cycle in three days." Cheers, Howard
Jiggy-Joggy
Dear Leonard, Funny you should mention Jiggy-Joggy, because I played it yesterday evening in a short informal recital for some friends - appropriately from the Italian class I attend. There was an article about this piece, "Notes and Information: Jiggy-Joggy" by David Scott in _The Lute Society Journal_ 19 (1977), p.54: "... John Florio's definition of _dibatticare_ in his 1611 revision, as _Queen Anna's New World of Words_, of his Italian-English dictionary, _A Worlde of Words_ (London, 1598) (there is no equivalent entry in the earlier version): _Dibatticare_, to thrum a wench lustily till the bed cry giggajoggie ..." I have consulted John Florio's dictionary, and can confirm that David Scott is absolutely right. When I perform this piece, I usually introduce it with the information above. I also usually add that the strange thing about the music is that the rhythm (a gentle 6/8) is not quite what you might have expected in view of Florio's definition. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: "Leonard Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LuteNet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:15 AM Subject: Re: something useful and nice for our newbies > Some of my favorites that are not extremely difficult, yet continually challenge you in tone, articulation, > phrasing, and technique in general: > > Jiggy-Joggy > Sellenger's Round (Board book) > Valderrabano's Duos and Sonetos (Silva de Sirenas) > Anonymous works from the Siena MS (from Lyre) > Ronn McFarlane's Scottish Lute collection (Mel Bay) > > Leonard Williams >[] > (_) > ~ > > >
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Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Howard, * BTW, what is a "roach assumption"? Is this a characterization of methodology, or of substances that affected your sobriety in making it? Or some rule of thumb about the visibility of actual visible cockroaches to hidden ones? * Roman gives, in another message, an estimate of 4 to 1 for hidden to visible roaches. As a former resident of NYC I can say he is optimistic. The ratio is more like 1000 to 1. Best, Jon
Re: soundboard wood from 1400-1800
Arto, Interesting topic, the slow growth woods for soundboards. You mention in response to the "little ice age" point that they are currently available in Finland and other northern countries. True, and the favored woods for US harp builders (for soundboards) are Sitka (Alaska) Spruce and Finnish Aircraft Grade Birch laminate. There is yet controversy in the harp community as to the solid versus the laminated soundboard (and I can send anyone an attachment of a "one man debate" where he takes each side and defends it). But in both cases the choice is northern wood. BTW, the Finnish laminate is not a normal plywood, it is 3mm thick with 6 layers of select wood. One doesn't get this at the local lumber store, that thickness would normally be 3 plys. The 3mm is about standard for harps, solid or laminate, as the soundboard has to take the direct pull of the strings (in fact until it "bellies" it isn't mature). So perhaps the suggestion of the Stradivari (and Amati) violins having the dense wood of the little ice age may have some credibility regarding their sound quality. As I think of it, the "chrystalline" structure of the material (I know wood isn't chrystalline) might easily have and effect on the sound. Drop a ball bearing on a steel plate or a lead plate, the sound will be different. The lead will make a "clunk", the steel will ring. The lead is heavier and therefore denser. Then try an iron plate, it has about the same density in the sense of atomic weight as the steel, but the steel will yet ring better. So it would seem to be the density in the sense of atomic bonding rather than in the sense mass. Oak is a denser wood than spruce, but I don't think it would make a good soundboard. Pure speculation, and playing off the message about the little ice age. Comments welcome as to other instruments and experience. My preliminary thesis is that the dense forms of softwood, those from slow growth areas, make the best resonating soundboards - this from the top of my head tonight. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Patrick H" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 5:01 PM Subject: Re: soundboard wood from 1400-1800 > > Dear Patrick, > > you wrote: > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/12/08/stradivarius.secret.ap/index.html > > > > This is an interesting story about the wood that was used by > > Stradivari; the "Little Ice Age" that gripped Europe from the mid-1400s > > until the mid-1800s that slowed tree growth and yielded uncommonly dense > > Alpine spruce. > > What does this mean for us? Were soundboards like this used for lutes, > > and is it possible for us to replicate this kind of wood. > > This is a very interesting idea! But if is is true, you still can find > this dense spruce today from here very north, from my Finland. ;-) > And of course also from Canada and Russia! We have lots and lots of > dense spruce in our wast forests, just take a look to the map! > > By the way, my tiny chitarrino, renaissance guitar, see > http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/LutePics/Chitarrino.gif > has its soundboard made of 1500 century wood! The maker, Finnish > lutenist Eero Palviainen, managed to buy a small part of the wall > of a 1500 century house in Central Europe, and he used that material > for my instrument! Perhaps that explains the very good and strong > sound of my chitarrino? > > Arto > > > >
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Re: Something useful and nice for our newbies
Weiss into a well paid job while Hagen needed to earn his living as violin player ... But both of them must have played marvelous. Thomas Am Die, 2003-12-09 um 03.20 schrieb Arto Wikla: > On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Roman Turovsky wrote: > > > > I think - as many do - that it is a good idea to start lute playing > > > by a lute in renaissance tuning. > > I disagree emphatically. Weiss and Hagen didn't, and look where it took > > them. > > Where did it really take Mr. Hagen? And also Mr. Weiss. > Tell us, please. > > Arto, as emphatically as ever -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
