[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
BRAVO, Stewart !!! Just the perfect words... Thanks, Ariel. Dear Rick and Paul, Thank you for your common-sense contributions. The Sting thread has aroused many passions. I am inclined to think that many of the contributions have been sent in by a load of fuddy-duddies. I am reminded of my old school chaplain, who disliked the Beatles, and seemed to resent their popularity. When I told him that I liked their music, he was aghast. What sort of voices do they have? Are they tenors? he asked scathingly. It was the wrong question. They weren't tenors. To be a tenor, meant singing classical music with a trained voice. The Beatles did something else, and it was a mistake on the chaplain's part to try to judge them by inappropriate criteria. So it is with many of the critical comments levelled against Sting. If we expect him to sound like Emma Kirkby, we shall be disappointed. He sings Dowland his own way. His performance of Can she excuse my wrongs has excitement and passion. The out-of-tune notes may grate on our refined ears, but at least they are sung with committment. It is an angry, passionate song, supposedly about the Earl of Essex' unrequited love for Queen Elizabeth. How many times have I heard it sung beautifully by an angelic voice, perfectly in tune, and with no more fire than a damp squib: in tune, but utterly flat? Does HIP matter? Is it a sine qua non? Is Sting trying to promulgate a historically informed performance? Probably not. He has his own agenda. The irony of it all is, his performance is as likely to be as HIP as any other. How do we know Dowland and his contemporaries didn't sing that way? Much has been said in criticism of Karamazov, the lutenist. For me, his performance is also exciting, and I am impressed by the spectacular divisions at the end of the sound clip. His great crime seems to be performing Dowland on an archlute, and with single strings. My Goodness! How could he do such a thing? Wherever was he brought up? Yet, as one who has played the music of Francesco da Milano on an 8-course lute with nylgut strings, I would hesitate to throw the first HIP stone. For me, the big mistake is having the microphones too close to the performers. If that is the sound they are after, good luck to them, but I suspect it was imposed on them by a sound engineer unfamiliar with lutes. If the mike is too close, it will capture that harsh, brittle sound you get when you have your ears right up to the lute ribs. Ideally the mikes should be some distance away, where they are more likely to capture the sound a listener would normally hear from an accoustic instrument. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Lindberg Richard-MGIA0539 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 9:59 PM Subject: *** SPAM *** [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! My feelings exactly. I think it is pretty cool for a pop musician to try anything like this whether it's historically accurate or not. At least John Dowland's music will be brought to a new audience if nothing else. Who knows what additonal interest that will pique. Rick -Original Message- From: Paul Pleijsier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 4:26 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! If the CD sounds anything like what you can hear at Amazon then it must go down as one of the worst lute recordings of all times. What are those amazingly loud string noises ? Please try to see what it really is: a fantasy performing style, pop influenced, though not standard Sting-pop, with a poppy use of the studio, exaggerating string noise, compression etc., trying to find the missing link between lute playing and modern pyrotechnics. Let's give Sting and his luter the thumbs up for trying something different. PP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
In einer eMail vom 26.09.2006 08:52:50 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The irony of it all is, his performance is as likely to be as HIP as any other I still doubt that is true of the singing, but it may be possible But in regards to the lute playing that is not the case. The only reason for the archlute I can see is that it is easier to play for non HIP performers. But then again Erin is praized as a lutenist with a HIP background. Maybe he is a great musician (on other recordings), but he has nothing to do with HIP. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Were theorbos used to accompany lute songs?
If you look at the Air de Cours repertoire, you can .. instrument in A - like a theorbo). Later editions use a figured bass, but sections in which the bass plays .. edition of these songs? I say that theorbo players would most likely use the lute-tab version if it was Would you? I wouldn't. With a theorbo in hand and a bass line available I'd make something up myself. Much more fun than playing a tab part, let alone a tab part for an instrument in a different tuning. Do you invent your own continuo or do you play the editorial version? Only if it's realy well-written and fits the theorbo really well, and then only for some sections. Even in playing Dowland on a renaissance lute we add notes, don't we? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Were theorbos used to accompany lute songs?
If you look at a manuscript like Add. Ms. 24665 (vocal part + unfigured bass) you see some things which may show that an early 17th century musician had a slightly differant slant on things than we have. There are 74 songs. 5 from Dowland 8 from Campion 10 from Robert Jones 2 from John Bartlet plus a few others by Rosseter, Ford, Caccini etc and anon. From what I see at a glance all the Dowland songs are from the first 2 books of songes so it seems what you say about continuo songs may not be true at least for a 17th century musician. Mark Interesting, thank you! Trial by document, we called this at school. ;-) Finding paper evidence in favour of your own point of view, or against the point of view of the other. But that is being unkind, because it is a valid point you are making. Sure, if I have a concert with favourite English songs from Dowland to Purcell, and can bring only one instrument, I'll play all songs on that one instruments. (Sounds like an archlute job to me ...) If it's going to be a theorbo I would choose later, more homophonic Dowland songs or the jolly early ones. Not the ones with the heavy polyphonic textures. But if I have to play Flow my Tears or I Saw my Lady Weep on theorbo anyway? Rather not, obviously, but I would do it, I suppose. The compiler of your manuscript had less problems with it than I have, or a less refined (not meant in a discriminating sense) musical taste. Perhaps I am over-refined in my musical taste, not the correct level of hip-ness here? But it does answer David R.'s question about 'can I play Dowland on a theorbo'. Trial by document, verdict: yes you can because the old ones did it! As in a message to Chris: subjectivity is not unimportant in art. ;-) David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Sting's recording
I thought I sent these ramblings last night, but they didn't seem to make it on to the lutenet. For some reason my first reaction upon hearing the Sting excerpts was to laugh out loud, so it certainly can't be all bad. :-). I just couldn't help imagining what an exasperated teacher would say to him. Maybe someday someone will start an early music version of that most annoying music show on NPR and he'll nab that elusive HIP top 10. There have been several other efforts over the years by popular artists crossing over. I like some of Blackmore's Night's stuff. I think the singer is limited and most of the time she does a good job of staying within her limitations and Richie does some fine guitar work. The hardest thing listening to them is to drop my own prejudices when they do a Renaissance song I know in an arrangement very foreign to what an early music artist would do. Then again, there are lutenists whose extreme timing discrepancies have no musical meaning for me and I just can't listen to them. I heard that Michael Bolton made an album of classics after his collaboration with Domingo. I bet that is good for a laugh too. I think we have to try (it may not be possible) to listen to these experiments with an open ear, perhaps in the spirit of traditional folk music. Some of the songs contemporary folk groups do are very old and they simply do them in their own style. It is all grist for the mill. I think (gosh I sure hope) that was what Sting was going for. For him, it must have been a really cool project. Why should he feel any responsibility to our EM crowd? We are not his target audience. If Sting did a job closer to what an early music singer would do, wouldn't it surely be much more horrifying? At least he sounds like Sting. Whatever lessons at Basel he had didn't change his style very much. Hopefully, he'll sell a billion and we'll all ride his coat tales. I'm already preparing a sign for my next gig: As sung by Sting ha, ha. cheers, -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
On Sep 26, 2006, at 11:48 AM, Rob Dorsey wrote: Scholarly criticisms aside, doesn't Sting at least get credit for trying? And, aren't we a bit disloyal to the music in not believing that it can stand on its own? This music has endured for 4 centuries. It can surely stand up to some perhaps misguided interpretation by Sting, me, or any other person who sees beauty in it and tries to give it life Donald Grout came to my university when I was a student and someone asked him about doing unHIP things like playing Bach on the piano. He said, If it is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. That always cracks me up. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
I think the early music movement is taken into the main stream classical musical world. That's not a bad thing, only confusing at times. I think the better term might be assimulated. Resistance is futile. I think it has taken a lot of the attitude and edge out of early music and are back in some ways where the early music began. Main stream music has profited. A hip attitude is accepted musical practice all round. What's wrong with that? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] sting sound
Many here commented on and criticized the sound quality of Sting's clips, perhaps believing they represent the actual CD's sound. I guess that, as previews, they were made intentionally lo-fi. I hear a 'phasey' quality, compression and perhaps some EQ tweak. I guess they're cinderellas. I would be surprised if the actual CD would not have the big-budget DG sound quality (though recording techniques and processing might differ from normal classical recordings). Perhaps we should first listen to the actual product. PP Nieuwe website: www.paulpleijsier.nl Wat ik hoor, column over gitaarspelen Laatste: Complete werken -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: sting sound
Many here commented on and criticized the sound quality of Sting's clips, perhaps believing they represent the actual CD's sound. I guess that, as previews, they were made intentionally lo-fi. I hear a 'phasey' quality, compression and perhaps some EQ tweak. I guess they're cinderellas. I would be surprised if the actual CD would not have the big-budget DG sound quality (though recording techniques and processing might differ from normal classical recordings). Perhaps we should first listen to the actual product. Paul I think you are right, it sound to me like poor quality MP3. Kazamarov (sorry, I think I have his name wrong) sounded quite differently on the Bach clip elsewehere on the net: very polished and smooth. Nice, single string guitar sound, actually, but that's another discussion. ;-) David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
I think you have proved my point that the early music movement has lost it's profile. I would agree, but as I said in an earlier posting, I think the early music movement is taken into the main stream classical musical world. That's not a bad thing, only confusing at times. Lute players are no longer hip even though they play lutes, main stream musicians can be very hip, one player can be both in different circumstances. I played my Campion lute song on guitar in last weekend's concert, even though I had an archlute (aargh, non-hip either) at hand as well, to make a better flow in the programma and a more even use of both instruments. Just for the record: for the cd I used an 8-course. David - hip or not, gut on all lutes and guitar To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Theorbo Questions
Dear list, Many thanks to those of you who responded to my recent questions regarding theorbos. Your input is much appreciated. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] HIP Transition?
Some interesting discussions of late. Are we in a HIP transitional period these days? Actually, I don't think Sting's foray into early music is all that different from any of ours, inasmuch as he appears to have drawn his inspiraton from the past, just as we do. And if the result is his own personal product, and not that of the perfect student, who are we to stand in judgement? Pop/rock legends tend not to lock themselves up in ivory towers. At least he got out there and did it, and I give him a lot of credit for that. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
In einer eMail vom 26.09.2006 14:48:52 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Instead, we intentionally attempted to appeal to the same audience who may listen to Dead Can Dance, or Loreena McKennitt. If you read my original mail that started all this sting stuff. You will notice that I spoke about Pantagruel's myspace.com page. We have not attempted to intentionally appeal to fan of both of these bands I beleive that HIP played renaissance music would appeal to them as it stands. The reaction has been amazing and we have managed to do that which I believe very few early music group has managed, to get a non-classical young audience interested in this music without comprimising the music. We are the only early music group in the myspace classical charts. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
Reading the various comments sparked by Sting's recording has been both enlightening and entertaining. I have to say that I am mostly in sympathy with Gary Digman's rational words. The luteseemsto meansomethingentirely different to different individuals. For many here in the US, it appears to have a huge 'Renaissance Fair' appeal, complete with the costumes and comedy. There are also many afficianados who are completely absorbed in the historical mystique of the lute and its music and would rather not have their reverie interrupted by a real person actually playing the lute. For many, experiencing the lute means listening again and again to their favorite recordings, unaware that a lute recording is always always always the product of manufactured perfection. When I first asked Paul O'Dette about his approach to recording, he indicated that he plays very differently when in front of an engineer's microphone, and never has the first chord of a recorded piece come from the same 'take' as the last chord. Our lutesong duo, Mignarda, released a CD of air de cour earlier this year and we made a conscious effort to break the mold of the typical sound we have all come to expect in lutesong CDs. We decided that the usual Early Music audience was going to seek out the usual suspects and we had neither the budget nor the driving interest to attempt to gain their attention. Instead, we intentionally attempted to appeal to the same audience who may listen to Dead Can Dance, or Loreena McKennitt. We felt that here was an opportunity to convert other listeners to authentic 17th century music merely by not being academic and boring. It seems to have worked. The amusing thing is that mainstream classical radio station WCLV, normally the source of 19th century symphonies and live broadcasts of the Cleveland Orchestra, selected our CD as a 'Choice CD of the Month' a few months ago. Go figure. I agree with Mark that the music is all about the emotional content of the piece and it is our job to convey that. I have no question that David can convincingly play a Campion piece on guitar, since he is obviously deeply involved in the aesthetics of the music. Gary is right to point out that it shouldn't matter whether one is playing Dowland or Coltrane, as long as the meaning of the music is understood and conveyed. The absolute best feedback we ever had after a performance of Dowland's 'Go nightly cares' was from a woman who was not a typical Early Music fan. She approached us afterward and said that she was so completely absorbed in the dark emotion of the song that she became very concerned for Donna and wanted to give her the phone number of a therapist. I think that means we 'sold' the song. By the way, I am organizing a lute playing day for November 11th, to be held in Brattleboro, VT. If anyone is interested, please write me for more information. Ron Andrico Donna Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2]http://www.mignarda.com __ From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 03:02:48 -0700 Early muisic movement? Is there a manifesto? Play it as you hear and feel it, make it your own. Do with it what you will. I've played Bela Bartok, Charlie Parker and Lennon and MacCartney as well as Dowland, Terzi and da Milano. I think Sting's heart is in the right place. He did the CD because he loves the lute and Dowland's music, at least thay's what he says' I don't think he ever expected it to become all that commercially successful. Let those who wish to play double strung play and those who wish to play single strung play. I don't conceive of my job as a lutenist to reproduce a performance by John Dowland. ( Not that I could). To paraphrase William Count Basie, I just do what I like to do and if it's HIP, that's great. If not, I'm doing what I like to do. Not that I don't value historical research. I eagerly study the results of scholars into HIP. Every insight helps me to understand and value this music more. And adds to my tool kit. Well, I guess I better go listen to the samples of the Sting CD so I can see what the redness and the swelling is all about. Best to All Gary - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 9:58 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! In einer eMail vom 25.09.2006 17:25:56 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Interestingly, POD suggested single
[LUTE] Re: Were theorbos used to accompany lute songs?
On Sep 26, 2006, at 7:50 AM, David Rastall wrote: Dowland's lute parts should be read as realised continuo? Are you sure? I would doubt that ... Well, they have bass lines which serve as the basis for their harmonic structure. Whether or not they should be read as such is an interesting question. I guess it kind of depends on how you play continuo. I mean continuo can encompass everything from inventing clever polyphonic counterpoint to just blocking out the chords. I forget the context and what point the teacher was trying to make, but it is a helpful way to look at any tune: i.e. become aware of the harmony and then see the choices the composer made. I bet JD could improvise some vicious continuo to his, or other well known songs of the time. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] The Christmas Lute Book/CD
File under shameless promotion. The Christmas Lute Book/CD 22 christmas pieces, most with introduction and variations in french tablature for 7 course renaissance lute (works with 6 if you tune down the 6th course to F on some tunes) You can hear the pieces on soundclick at: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=309575 You can see the book at http://home.earthlink.net/~guitarandlute/christmas_lute.html Only a modest $17.95 for book/cd (CD is a high quality digital recording) shipping is $2.00 in the states or Canadaand $7.95 air overseas. I have a few book/cd collections, and if one would like more than one of anything, I can usually ship multiple items in a flat rate global prirority mail envelope for $9.50 Allan www.fluteandguitar.com www.guitarandlute.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
In einer eMail vom 26.09.2006 16:39:37 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Which is a particularly odd notion because I almost never see lutes at renaissance fairs. You're more likely to see steel-strung Dreadnaught guitars strumming Americanized Irish drinking songs at such venues in my neighborhood. Eugene I have a few copies of the American magazine Renaissance. One of the then has a title story called the Lute Reborn. On the cover there is a picture of Orwain Phyfe playing what could best be descrobed as a steel stung western guitar with with vihuela tendancies. He calls it an Italian chitarra battente. Here I go again ... A chitarra battente was triple stung and his is single strung with what look like western guitar strings. It seems that if you look at both ends of the spectrum it is important for these people to seem authentic by calling their instruments lutes or chitarra battente but in the end it is just keeping up appearences. One of these magazines has an article that states that using HIP music would be impossible at such places because the audience would get bored. So what do they do use lots of drums and oriental instruments like hammered dulcimers etc. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
At 12:14 PM 9/26/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a few copies of the American magazine Renaissance. One of the then has a title story called the Lute Reborn. On the cover there is a picture of Orwain Phyfe playing what could best be descrobed as a steel stung western guitar with with vihuela tendancies. He calls it an Italian chitarra battente. Here I go again ... A chitarra battente was triple stung... [I wouldn't say all were triple strung.] ...and his is single strung with what look like western guitar strings. [More importantly, his has an uncanted soundboard and strings set through to a modern-style fixed pin bridge that accommodates six single strings.] This is a funny story to strike a semi-personal chord, because I watched Owain perform many years ago at a renaissance festival. I spoke to him afterwards and said That's an interesting instrument you play. It looks to be a modern guitar built to pretty directly emulate the aesthetics of the Jaquemart-Andre vihuela. Who built it? He replied with the builder (whom I've forgotten other than he is based in Michigan) and This is actually what is called a chitarra battente. Well, I very well know what a chitarra battente is. Owain actually plays one on one of his CDs (although he changes the typical string configuration), so I have to assume he knows too. When I tried to tell him how I saw his modern guitar to differ from the historic application of the term by which he called it, he hastened on to autograph stuff for his unquestioning admirers. I am not a purist by any stretch. I actually enjoy Owain's modern pop-/folk-like approach to renaissance song. His efforts stand very well on their own without him trying to label it what it is not. I am as happy playing Milan on a modern guitar or speculative vihuela, but I defer to common uses of the terms and don't label either as the other. So what do they do use lots of drums and oriental instruments like hammered dulcimers etc. Occasional hammered dulcimer, but a great many steel-strung guitars and modern citterns (i.e., flat-bodied mandola/liuto cantabile with long scale lengths) playing modern Irish drinking songs. That's just fine when it's called what it is. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A few thoughts...
Dear Luters, I find it interesting that some people get so ruffled at the idea that someone approaches what is beginning to seem like a sacred repertoire from an alternative perspective. But more to the point, speaking from a historical perspective, we know that a number of Dowland's songs continued to be circulated in continuo settings throughout the first half of the 17th century (Oxford mss). Would these not have been played on a single strung theorbo? Secondly, keyboards have the option to change ranks, use single strings (spinets-and these were certainly used in 17th century English domestic music settings), depending on the instrument they can use a variety of timbral options. And doesn't Dowland (as well as almost every other Elizabethan composer) give us numerous options as performance settings? Thereby offering us a wide timbral palette? Also, isn't it possible that there were some lutenists who (in the 17th cent.) might have played with single strings on an archlute? I raise this issue again because I recently came across an English musical dictionary (London;1740) whose publishing was overseen by Johann Pepusch in which the theorbo is described as (and this is a direct quote): The only difference between the Theorbo and Lute is , that the former has eight bass or thick strings, twice as long as those of the lute All of the strings are usually single, although there are some who double the bass strings with a little octave, and the small strings with a unison; in which case it bearing more resemblance to the lute than the common theorbo; the Italians call it Arciliuto or Archlute. Given that there are numerous examples from things like the Charles Coleman manuscripts in which (and remember this instrument is called a theorbo) there is a 4 - 3 suspension between the first and second course, or just a leading tone f# on the second course resolving to an open first course g...why is so hard to imagine that there wouldn't be a single (as well as double) strung instrument called a theorbo in England with a high g? And let us not forget that there are so many publications which call for a theorboed-lute, I know of Linda Sayce's article on this subject, but I am not completely convinced...and think that it was a more diverse situation. And then look at the painting of Lady Mary Sydney holding her theorbo...are we to conclude that the string length of that instrument supported a re-entrant tuning? Even if she is standing on a platform of some sort the instrument still appears quite small (as compared to a 17th c. Italian theorbo). I know that this is conjecture, (and I am trying to rattle a couple of cages), but there is something to this On a number of different Handel opera engagements I have recently shown up with 3 instruments: standard single strung a re-entrant theorbo; single strung English Theorbo (in G with only the top string down); and finally a single strung theorboed lute (as I like to call it). On every occasion the directors (and these have included : Chris Hogwood, Roy Goodman, Harry Bickett etc...) have chosen the latter do to it's ability to realized high harmony as well as offer a strong bass; they all felt that this was the most appropriate musical choice...frankly, for Handel I had to agree with them given the fact that I was the only plucker(if there had been two, the decision might very well had been different. Finally, I always come back to two articles that I regularly assign for my students which both suggest a greater timbral variety than what is normally accepted today: Paul Beier's great essay on Right Hand Lute Technique (LSA) and Paul O'Dette's essay on timbral variety from the Utrech Lute Festival (c. 1988??) which he concludes with the enlightened comment different strokes from different folks. That Sting might want to approach this repertoire from a later perspective (if that was indeed his intention) should not offend anyone, since we know that Dowland's songs circulated for quite a while after his death (his performance is another thing and that is where personal taste and subjectivity come into the discussion). But to just condemn it out of hand seems to be (once again) assembling the EMP (early music police). Let's celebrate that he is hopefully going to make Dowland a more familiar name. Cordially Yours, R Savino -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A few thoughts...
In einer eMail vom 26.09.2006 18:50:18 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I find it interesting that some people get so ruffled at the idea that someone approaches what is beginning to seem like a sacred repertoire from an alternative perspective. Hi, no problem with someone performing this repertoire from an alternative perspective, I don't find the sting recording so alternative just quite badly played, especially in ensemble terms. I have played the recording to quite a few non classical listeners and the first reaction was-they are not playing together at all. But now we have a chance to ask someone why are all your instruments singly strung. There seems to be a lot of evidence that English Theorbos were not singly strung. I think it is safe to say that theorboed lutes were always double strung. It is strange that you seem to be fixed on finding support for single stringing. Don't you like playing with double courses ? There is a lot of evidence that some Theorbos were double strung, probably doesn't interest you. I understand you see this from another perspective, you have to do your job and earn your money on the modern classical continuo circuit, comprimise is probably an important part to keep the dollars rolling in. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
In einer eMail vom 26.09.2006 18:47:31 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: When I tried to tell him how I saw his modern guitar to differ from the historic application of the term by which he called it, he hastened on to autograph stuff for his unquestioning admirers. I am sure Sting will also react in a simular way. Maybe not wait and see. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! So what do they do use lots of drums and oriental instruments like hammered dulcimers etc. Hammered dulcimer is as 'HIP' as it can only be (for the 15th - 16th century European music) and may not even be, as is widely believed, of 'oriental' origin ... Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A few thoughts...
In a message dated 9/26/06 10:16:52 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But now we have a chance to ask someone why are all your instruments singly strung. There seems to be a lot of evidence that English Theorbos were not singly strung. I think it is safe to say that theorboed lutes were always double strung. It is strange that you seem to be fixed on finding support for single stringing. Don't you like playing with double courses ? First, most of my instruments are double strung (except these 3 and I have two other archlutes, both doucle strung, as well as 3 vihuelas, a baroque lute, and a number of renaissance lutes). But all I was pointing out is that there is certainly evidence of single strung instruments in England (the dictionary I quoted and the portrait of Lady Mary Sidney). Furthermore I am not necessessarily in agreement with your assertion, but that's ok, we can agree to disagree... There is a lot of evidence that some Theorbos were double strung, probably doesn't interest you. I completely agree, and it does interest me, but one can only do so much in a lifetime... I understand you see this from another perspective, you have to do your job and earn your money on the modern classical continuo circuit, comprimise is probably an important part to keep the dollars rolling in. Your assumption that my performing in these opera is justearning money in a modern classical continuo circuit is rather odd. My playing is not limited to modern groups. (this weekend I recorded and performed 2 different programs with Mercury Baroque Orchestra and Ars Lyrica in Houston TX) I was merely pointing out that there is a greater degree of diversity to this subject. And it is not an issue of dollars as it is aethetics, and here, again, we can agree to disagree...as POD put it: different strokes for different folks. RS -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A few thoughts...
Rich Savino wrote: I find it interesting that some people get so ruffled at the idea that someone approaches what is beginning to seem like a sacred repertoire from an alternative perspective. Actually there are more posts talking about other posters getting ruffled than there are posters who are actually ruffled, once you discount the posts by someone who must have survived a brutal attack from a single-strung archlute in early childhood. The objections to Sting's Dowland have not been doctrinal. Also, isn't it possible that there were some lutenists who (in the 17th cent.) might have played with single strings on an archlute? No it's absolutely impossible. As Richard, who is an educator and scholar, ought to know, all 17th-century archlutes were equipped with a mechanism that caused the instrument to self-destruct whenever the string-to-course ratio dropped below 8:5. After Piccinini was blown to bits when he got careless restringing his instrument in 1638, archlute players tended to delegate the task of stringing to others -- usually in-laws they didn't particularly like -- but over the years the casualty rate among players remained sufficiently high that the instrument was replaced by keyboard instruments, which were less hazardous except when being moved. So while in theory there is a certain surface appeal to the notion that there must have been historical single-strung archlutes, just from the law of averages as it were -- in practice it could not be done. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] how about triple strung??
Yes, insisting on double stringing for Dowland seems fairly picky. Anyway when asked to perform at a church concert of local amateurs in Ireland some years ago when I was only beginning with my lute and didn't feel competent with it, I obliged with rattling off a keyboard transcription of the Dowland Lachrymae (out of an anthology of keyboard transcriptions of English lute music, ed. by Alan Booth -- if I remember correctly -- with an introduction by Thurston Dart) -- on the instrument provided for the occasion, a shiny new Yamaha studio grand piano with the customary triple stringing of a piano and with the big black lid thrown wide open. I followed this with a keyboard transcription of a Fantasia of Fuenllana, out of the Orphenica Lyra, from the monumental Oxford book of this vihuela stuff, ed. Charles Jacobs. Jacobs is a desperately uptight scholarly academic who nonetheless migrated Fuenllana's defenceless vihuela onto the keys, whether of single, double, or triple stringing -- thereby conferring undoubted blessings on keyboard players and their listeners. The effect of the grand piano was positively shattering I might add, especially in the case of the Fuenllana (Fantasia 34, a very extroverted passionate piece which leaps ahead of its time into big Romantic music and could well be given the total treatment and transcribed for orchestra with double basses and kettle drums). Conversely Fuenllana himself, the vihelist, squeezed oceans of big choral music onto the exclusive little vihuela.The Lachrymae got bandied about from one instrumentation to another in its time, there are three glossados on it in the Fitzwilliam by as many compossers -- for single-strung virginals. On the big ugly Yamaha the Lachrymae yielded to a lot of modelling which could never happen with a Renaissance instrument, it came across as a kind of contrapuntal Schubert, and although I don't really respond to this as a preference, I see no harm in having some fun. Unfortunately I never got tuned in on the Sting thing and so cannot commit myself to a reaction to it. Admittedly there may be limits. Once when I was a young boy in England in the 1930's I heard Beethoven's Fifth on the wireless and orchestrated entirely for differently pitched automobile klaxons, and I admit I doubt if Ludwig would have been too happy about it. Frank Russell -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
In einer eMail vom 26.09.2006 20:27:11 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hammered dulcimer is as 'HIP' as it can only be (for the 15th - 16th century European music) and may not even be, as is widely believed, of 'oriental' origin ... Alexander Hi, I don't doubt that there were Hammered Dulcimers played somewhere in renaissance europe. But as in the overuse of percussion in renaissance performances today I don't believe they were widely used. But I would love to be proved wrong. Any evidence for widespread use of them in the 16th century? No I don't believe they are evil and you are right if they existed then it is not un-HIP to use them. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: how about triple strung??
The Englis Lute Music edition you mentioned was actually done by none other than David Lumsden with an intro by Thurston Dart - Schott Co. Ltd 1953. My edition was purchased in 1973 I believe. Sandy PS I happen to own a very wonderful big ugly Yamaha. Dfoes well, too. - Original Message - From: frank russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] how about triple strung?? Yes, insisting on double stringing for Dowland seems fairly picky. Anyway when asked to perform at a church concert of local amateurs in Ireland some years ago when I was only beginning with my lute and didn't feel competent with it, I obliged with rattling off a keyboard transcription of the Dowland Lachrymae (out of an anthology of keyboard transcriptions of English lute music, ed. by Alan Booth -- if I remember correctly -- with an introduction by Thurston Dart) -- on the instrument provided for the occasion, a shiny new Yamaha studio grand piano with the customary triple stringing of a piano and with the big black lid thrown wide open. I followed this with a keyboard transcription of a Fantasia of Fuenllana, out of the Orphenica Lyra, from the monumental Oxford book of this vihuela stuff, ed. Charles Jacobs. Jacobs is a desperately uptight scholarly academic who nonetheless migrated Fuenllana's defenceless vihuela onto the keys, whether of single, double, or triple stringing -- thereby conferring undoubted blessings on keyboard players and their listeners. The effect of the grand piano was positively shattering I might add, especially in the case of the Fuenllana (Fantasia 34, a very extroverted passionate piece which leaps ahead of its time into big Romantic music and could well be given the total treatment and transcribed for orchestra with double basses and kettle drums). Conversely Fuenllana himself, the vihelist, squeezed oceans of big choral music onto the exclusive little vihuela.The Lachrymae got bandied about from one instrumentation to another in its time, there are three glossados on it in the Fitzwilliam by as many compossers -- for single-strung virginals. On the big ugly Yamaha the Lachrymae yielded to a lot of modelling which could never happen with a Renaissance instrument, it came across as a kind of contrapuntal Schubert, and although I don't really respond to this as a preference, I see no harm in having some fun. Unfortunately I never got tuned in on the Sting thing and so cannot commit myself to a reaction to it. Admittedly there may be limits. Once when I was a young boy in England in the 1930's I heard Beethoven's Fifth on the wireless and orchestrated entirely for differently pitched automobile klaxons, and I admit I doubt if Ludwig would have been too happy about it. Frank Russell -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] The last word goes to Sting
Hi, I may have overshot the Mark that you usually know, in the last few days. I have a bad cold at the moment maybe extreme HIPness is also a viral infection. So I will let the Maestro Sting have the last words taken from an interview online at about his Dowland project... http://www.stern.de/unterhaltung/musik/570529.html?q=sting Fakt ist, dass wir derzeit am Ende des Pop stehen, der dauernd monotoner wird. Der Rock liegt im Sterben. my attempt at a translation It is a fact, that we are at the end of pop music, that is becoming more monotone. Rock music lies dieing A strange comment when you consider that at least here in Germany innovative Rock albums such as the the latest CD's by Muse (who have also claimed to be infleunced by renaissance music) or Billy Talent went straight to the top of the charts, but he has told us the the truth so I am sure he knows what he is doing with his archlute :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Hi Mark, Except the quoted remark I would share everything Sting said in that interview. Possibly someone can translate it? Best wishes Thomas -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. September 2006 22:07 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] The last word goes to Sting Hi, I may have overshot the Mark that you usually know, in the last few days. I have a bad cold at the moment maybe extreme HIPness is also a viral infection. So I will let the Maestro Sting have the last words taken from an interview online at about his Dowland project... http://www.stern.de/unterhaltung/musik/570529.html?q=sting Fakt ist, dass wir derzeit am Ende des Pop stehen, der dauernd monotoner wird. Der Rock liegt im Sterben. my attempt at a translation It is a fact, that we are at the end of pop music, that is becoming more monotone. Rock music lies dieing A strange comment when you consider that at least here in Germany innovative Rock albums such as the the latest CD's by Muse (who have also claimed to be infleunced by renaissance music) or Billy Talent went straight to the top of the charts, but he has told us the the truth so I am sure he knows what he is doing with his archlute :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 26.09.2006 22:16:28 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Mark, Except the quoted remark I would share everything Sting said in that interview. Possibly someone can translate it? Best wishes Thomas The interview is only an excerpt from the full version that comes out on Thursday. It is pretty much the usual Sting stuff, he knows everything, he is the super musician blah, blah, blah, he does say he is not a prophet, but he does know that pop and rock music are over. Thanks for the info. Damn I have tickets to see Muse, She Wants Revenge and Placebo. could have saved the money if only I had listened to sting. Not the sort of ambassador for the lute we need to get a younger audience interested. Evil minds would maybe think it is all the attempt of an ageing rock star in the face of more interesting innovative musicians. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: HIP Transition?
Some interesting discussions of late. Are we in a HIP transitional period these days? Actually, I don't think Sting's foray into early music is all that different from any of ours, inasmuch as he appears to have drawn his inspiraton from the past, just as we do. And if the result is his own personal product, and not that of the perfect student, who are we to stand in judgement? Pop/rock legends tend not to lock themselves up in ivory towers. At least he got out there and did it, and I give him a lot of credit for that. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com David, you are right on the money as we say in the US. Sting has put out a PERSONAL PRODUCT, while we are awash in impersonal merchandise of varying degrees od HIPness and retropackaging complete with wigs and breeches. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A few thoughts...
I have three observations, one a correction, one based on anecdote, the last based on studying the Coleman MSS. 1. In my previous note, my finger left out a number, so the MSS identifications are sloppy: I should have typed: British Library Egerton MS 2971, Add MS 24665, and Add MS 29481. 2. I was at a recording session (as context consultant) in London in May, where the three singers, two lutenists, and harpist performed various music, mainly by William and Henry Lawes. Included among the finger plucked instruments were (baroque) guitar, regular renaissance lutes, an Italian theorbo, and a very new English theorbo. One thing I immediately noticed was that the English theorbo had the first six courses double strung. (I think I mumbled something to the effect that the fingerboard looked more like a normal lute.) The lutenist certainly knows what she is doing (we were recording for a very reputable company with some top-rank singers and pluckers) and the theorbo was, naturally, expensive, so I doubt she or the builder is mistaken. Hence, I would vote for double-strung English theorbos. 3. As the writer below correctly notes, in the Coleman manuscripts (Oxford, Bodleian Library, Broxbourne 84.9, London, Lambeth Palace Library, 1041) it is in places unclear whether the notation suggests a reentrant tuning for the first course. Often the upper octave seems right; often the lower octave (though the lower is right more often). [The second course never suggests reentrant tuning as far as I could determine.] Indeed, Edward Huws Jones, in _The Performance of English Song, 1610-1670_ thinks that the tablature in Lambeth Palace Library 1041 suggests (each in different sections) both an English theorbo and an archlute, I assume because the octave placements are ambiguous. Gordon J Callon School of Music Acadia University Wolfville Nova Scotia Canada B4P 2R6 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 9/26/2006 1:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] A few thoughts... Dear Luters, I find it interesting that some people get so ruffled at the idea that someone approaches what is beginning to seem like a sacred repertoire from an alternative perspective. But more to the point, speaking from a historical perspective, we know that a number of Dowland's songs continued to be circulated in continuo settings throughout the first half of the 17th century (Oxford mss). Would these not have been played on a single strung theorbo? Secondly, keyboards have the option to change ranks, use single strings (spinets-and these were certainly used in 17th century English domestic music settings), depending on the instrument they can use a variety of timbral options. And doesn't Dowland (as well as almost every other Elizabethan composer) give us numerous options as performance settings? Thereby offering us a wide timbral palette? Also, isn't it possible that there were some lutenists who (in the 17th cent.) might have played with single strings on an archlute? I raise this issue again because I recently came across an English musical dictionary (London;1740) whose publishing was overseen by Johann Pepusch in which the theorbo is described as (and this is a direct quote): The only difference between the Theorbo and Lute is , that the former has eight bass or thick strings, twice as long as those of the lute All of the strings are usually single, although there are some who double the bass strings with a little octave, and the small strings with a unison; in which case it bearing more resemblance to the lute than the common theorbo; the Italians call it Arciliuto or Archlute. Given that there are numerous examples from things like the Charles Coleman manuscripts in which (and remember this instrument is called a theorbo) there is a 4 - 3 suspension between the first and second course, or just a leading tone f# on the second course resolving to an open first course g...why is so hard to imagine that there wouldn't be a single (as well as double) strung instrument called a theorbo in England with a high g? And let us not forget that there are so many publications which call for a theorboed-lute, I know of Linda Sayce's article on this subject, but I am not completely convinced...and think that it was a more diverse situation. And then look at the painting of Lady Mary Sydney holding her theorbo...are we to conclude that the string length of that instrument supported a re-entrant tuning? Even if she is standing on a platform of some sort the instrument still appears quite small (as compared to a 17th c. Italian theorbo). I know that this is conjecture, (and I am trying to rattle a couple of cages), but there is something to this On a number of different Handel opera engagements I have recently shown up with 3 instruments: standard single strung a re-entrant
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
At 05:15 PM 9/26/2006, Roman Turovsky wrote: - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! At 12:14 PM 9/26/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a few copies of the American magazine Renaissance. One of the then has a title story called the Lute Reborn. On the cover there is a picture of Orwain Phyfe playing what could best be descrobed as a steel stung western guitar with with vihuela tendancies. He calls it an Italian chitarra battente. Here I go again ... A chitarra battente was triple stung... [I wouldn't say all were triple strung.] MArcello Vitale's is double-strung. And (HORROR), he plays with Peter Gabriel. Sounds good to me. My monkey remains unshocked. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: sting sound
Many here commented on and criticized the sound quality of Sting's clips, perhaps believing they represent the actual CD's sound. I guess that, as previews, they were made intentionally lo-fi. I hear a 'phasey' quality, compression and perhaps some EQ tweak. I guess they're cinderellas. I would be surprised if the actual CD would not have the big-budget DG sound quality (though recording techniques and processing might differ from normal classical recordings). Perhaps we should first listen to the actual product. Paul I think you are right, it sound to me like poor quality MP3. Kazamarov (sorry, I think I have his name wrong) sounded quite differently on the Bach clip elsewehere on the net: very polished and smooth. Nice, single string guitar sound, actually, but that's another discussion. ;-) David Karamazov (note the spelling, and the Dostoyevsky allusion to help you remember it) is a strictly double-strung player. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A few thoughts...
Bravo Richard! My opinion on the whole Sting thing is...well... ..maybe it will produce more work for lute playersa little pop exposure can't hurt! The ship has come in. SS --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Luters, I find it interesting that some people get so ruffled at the idea that someone approaches what is beginning to seem like a sacred repertoire from an alternative perspective. But more to the point, speaking from a historical perspective, we know that a number of Dowland's songs continued to be circulated in continuo settings throughout the first half of the 17th century (Oxford mss). Would these not have been played on a single strung theorbo? Secondly, keyboards have the option to change ranks, use single strings (spinets-and these were certainly used in 17th century English domestic music settings), depending on the instrument they can use a variety of timbral options. And doesn't Dowland (as well as almost every other Elizabethan composer) give us numerous options as performance settings? Thereby offering us a wide timbral palette? Also, isn't it possible that there were some lutenists who (in the 17th cent.) might have played with single strings on an archlute? I raise this issue again because I recently came across an English musical dictionary (London;1740) whose publishing was overseen by Johann Pepusch in which the theorbo is described as (and this is a direct quote): The only difference between the Theorbo and Lute is , that the former has eight bass or thick strings, twice as long as those of the lute All of the strings are usually single, although there are some who double the bass strings with a little octave, and the small strings with a unison; in which case it bearing more resemblance to the lute than the common theorbo; the Italians call it Arciliuto or Archlute. Given that there are numerous examples from things like the Charles Coleman manuscripts in which (and remember this instrument is called a theorbo) there is a 4 - 3 suspension between the first and second course, or just a leading tone f# on the second course resolving to an open first course g...why is so hard to imagine that there wouldn't be a single (as well as double) strung instrument called a theorbo in England with a high g? And let us not forget that there are so many publications which call for a theorboed-lute, I know of Linda Sayce's article on this subject, but I am not completely convinced...and think that it was a more diverse situation. And then look at the painting of Lady Mary Sydney holding her theorbo...are we to conclude that the string length of that instrument supported a re-entrant tuning? Even if she is standing on a platform of some sort the instrument still appears quite small (as compared to a 17th c. Italian theorbo). I know that this is conjecture, (and I am trying to rattle a couple of cages), but there is something to this On a number of different Handel opera engagements I have recently shown up with 3 instruments: standard single strung a re-entrant theorbo; single strung English Theorbo (in G with only the top string down); and finally a single strung theorboed lute (as I like to call it). On every occasion the directors (and these have included : Chris Hogwood, Roy Goodman, Harry Bickett etc...) have chosen the latter do to it's ability to realized high harmony as well as offer a strong bass; they all felt that this was the most appropriate musical choice...frankly, for Handel I had to agree with them given the fact that I was the only plucker(if there had been two, the decision might very well had been different. Finally, I always come back to two articles that I regularly assign for my students which both suggest a greater timbral variety than what is normally accepted today: Paul Beier's great essay on Right Hand Lute Technique (LSA) and Paul O'Dette's essay on timbral variety from the Utrech Lute Festival (c. 1988??) which he concludes with the enlightened comment different strokes from different folks. That Sting might want to approach this repertoire from a later perspective (if that was indeed his intention) should not offend anyone, since we know that Dowland's songs circulated for quite a while after his death (his performance is another thing and that is where personal taste and subjectivity come into the discussion). But to just condemn it out of hand seems to be (once again) assembling the EMP (early music police). Let's celebrate that he is hopefully going to make Dowland a more familiar name. Cordially Yours, R Savino -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
In einer eMail vom 26.09.2006 23:15:28 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: MArcello Vitale's is double-strung. And (HORROR), he plays with Peter Gabriel. RT Thanks for the info that they were also double strung nice to learn something. I would still like to know why it seems people use more and more single strung archlutes, but sadly no one will tell me. Love Peter Gabriel, would be intersting to hear him play Dowland, not bothered what he uses to accompany himself as long as he doesn't start saying that all modern rock music is over, because he has begun to play Dowland. My disgust of single strung archlutes is fueled by a lack of information. Come on tell me all why you love these instruments. I mean Edin has wonderful credentials looking forward to hearing why he chose that instrument. Please inform me I have leant a lot tonight the end of popular music has been shown to be a fact I feel quite small and useless being so picky about the single string archlutes. He even talks about stravinsky as being a rolemodel for him, but I amjust so out of date listening to emo-rock. I can see it now when I die Stravinsky and Sting saying you can't come in to the musicians heaven you believed in rock music and emotion. Come again is being released as a single maybe with a puff daddy remix. Now that is a great musician isn't it, sting says modern music has become so monotone, good that sting performed with the maestro Puffy at the MTV awards. That is a combination Puffy, Stravinsky and Sting, that warms the heart. Please a last time, what is the advantage of a single strung archlute, if they are so good I don't want to miss out on the fun. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] My disgust of single strung archlutes is fueled by a lack of information. Come on tell me all why you love these instruments. I mean Edin has wonderful credentials looking forward to hearing why he chose that instrument. You are being ludicrous. Edin's archlute is double-strung entirely, and Sting's- partially, judging from the photos that CLEARLY show double strings on the fingerboard. Cease and desist already. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] final comment
Gordon Mark, Again, please don't mis-interpret what I am saying. Clearly double strung theorboes and/or theorboed lutes, as well as instruments with the first course tuned down the octave existed and were played. No dissention here. But, clearly single strung theorboes did exist in England. Again: the dictionary article that I quoted and the portrait of Mary Sidney both attest to this. I find the dictionary entry to be most fascinating since there is the comparison with the Italian arciliuto. Finally, when all is said and done it all comes down to performance, and what is the best means to convey a musical aesthetic. This is going to be different for each of us. I have nothing against a double course theorbo, and the same can be said about a single strung theorbo. In fact, if I am not mistaken, doesn't Praetoriuos also suggest a theorbo in G with no re-entrant tuning? It's interesting most violinists harpsichordists I know never enter into these kinds of debates, in particular the keyboard players love the diversity. Again, cordially yours RS -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:56 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! Take it easy I don't think our little debate hear will change the course of this CD reception. Good publicity is a very rare occurance. That's right and lets be thankful to the guy admitting the end of 'message in a bottle' sort of dribble! Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: final comment
In einer eMail vom 27.09.2006 00:11:53 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: portrait of Mary Sidney The problem with this picture is either she has amazinhly long legs or high heels or the proportions of the painting are not correct. I don't think the picture proves much. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
In einer eMail vom 27.09.2006 00:23:16 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That's right and lets be thankful to the guy admitting the end of 'message in a bottle' sort of dribble! Alexander I made a mistake I meant bad publicity is a rare occurance. Probably my rants have sold him a few CD's. But I would not listen to the Early music show next month where his live concert will be broadcast he is planning to play some of his pop stuff on the lute. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: final comment
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact, if I am not mistaken, doesn't Praetoriuos also suggest a theorbo in G with no re-entrant tuning? Uh-huh. He also mentions stringing with wire and brass. (Nylgut having not been yet invented...) Chris __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! But I would not listen to the Early music show next month where his live concert will be broadcast he is planning to play some of his pop stuff on the lute. I wouldn't either ... unless this lady will trumpet his voice part ;)) http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/newgenerations/balsom.shtml Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please a last time, what is the advantage of a single strung archlute A little louder, a little easier to tune. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
On Sep 26, 2006, at 7:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Sting/Gwen Stefani collaboration for the Super Bowl I was staring the whole time at Stefani. Was Sting on stage? It appears we have rushed to judgement. As you can see here: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14932-2227126,00.html Sting is playing a perfectly HIP instrument, even following the current fashion for playing near the bridge. DS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:16 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! It seems he will be playing Message in a bottle especially for you. Thanks Mark, from now on I'm all ears! ... For me, singing is a spiritual journey. I'm devoutly musical. As for my voice, I'd say it's become more mature. Encrypted with life, it's developed texture,â? he says. I suppose he was doing a good deal of humming Ooohmm to his archlute before his voice gained the necessary texture. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
