[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Jerzy Zak]

Roman,

Kapsperger covers partly your search. Look at L. IV d'intav di chitarrone 1640:

Preludio 5to - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Preludio 6to - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Toccata 3za - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Toccata 4ta - E-major!
Passacaglia on p. 34 - e-minor
Corrente on p. 46 - e-minor

This is one of the nicest key on theorbo.
No pieces in b-minor in this collection, however.
J
---


> On 19 Apr 2019, at 22:12, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> A question to the collective wisdom:
> Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving solo theorbo 
> pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
> Is that true?
> 
> RT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Aegidius

[Jerzy Zak]

I could help but my file with scans of the MS is a little massy, I’d have to 
put the pages in order, what I could do this weekend, if you'll not find a 
faster solution.
Jerzy
—


> On 22 Mar 2018, at 13:41, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> I have to check a few concordances in Aegidius (CZ-Pnm G.IV.18) but my copy 
> is extremely poor.
> 
> Can anybody help?
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
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[LUTE] Re: Arciliuto, Matteo Sellas, Venezia 1639

[Jerzy Zak]

Great thanks, Paolo!
All the best,
Jerzy
—


> On 9 Aug 2017, at 21:08, Paolo Busato  wrote:
> 
>   Hello Jerzy,
> 
>   The Germanisches National Museum sells the drawing of that instrument.
>   Please find it at:
> 
>   [1]http://www.gnm.de/fileadmin/redakteure/Museum/pdf/gnm_tz_roentgen.pd
>   f
> 
>   in the Appendix: "Aus dem Besitz des Museo Civico Medievale in Bologna"
>   "Arciliuto (8x1/5x2+1 Saiten; 134/63,5 cm), Matteo Sellas, Venedig
>   1639. Ver-schiedene Details, Berippung, keine Deckenstärken. 209  x
>   104  cm".
> 
>   Best wishes,
> 
>   Paolo Busato lute-maker
>   [2]www.busatolutes.com
>   e-mail: paolo.busato[at]busatolutes.com
> 
>   _
>   Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da
>   considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è
>   indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati
>   di
>   eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003).  The
>   content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended
>   solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
>   addressed.
>If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email
>   and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003)
>   
> 
>   Il 09/08/2017 20:48, Jerzy Zak ha scritto:
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Where to get from a working drawing of the Arciliuto by Matteo Sellas, 
> Venezia 1
> 639, Cat. 104 - Inv. 1748?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Jerzy
> —
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.gnm.de/fileadmin/redakteure/Museum/pdf/gnm_tz_roentgen.pdf
>   2. http://www.busatolutes.com/
>   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Arciliuto, Matteo Sellas, Venezia 1639

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear All,

Where to get from a working drawing of the Arciliuto by Matteo Sellas, Venezia 
1639, Cat. 104 - Inv. 1748?

Thanks in advance,
Jerzy
—





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[LUTE] Re: Taned Spolski

[Jerzy Zak]

Rainer,

“Tanec Spolski” could mean “A Dance from Poland”, if understood as if properly 
written “Taniec z Polski”. Probably notated phonetically.

That reminds me a couple of dances in Pietro Paolo MELIJ, Intavolatura di Liuto 
attiorbato…, libro secondo, Venetia 1614, where one can find even funnier 
inscriptions mixing Polish names (to whom pieces were dedicated) with Italian 
grammar, but used as if twice… Needs complicated explanation, but seems also 
remembered/notated phonetically ;)

All the best,
Jerzy
---

> On 2 Jun 2017, at 19:51, adS  wrote:
> 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> can a member from Poland confirm that
> 
>   "Taned Spolski" (Vallet, 1615)
> 
> should be
> 
>   "Taniec polski"
> ?
> 
> If so, should it contain any special characters?
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
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> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivat Eliza

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Tomoko,
Try GoogleTranslate. Put your fraze in the space on the left, choose a language 
you think it is in, and press the little speaker underneath. Then keep changing 
languages until you think it rhymes best with ‘Ave María’. Stupid but works ;)

Jerzy
—


> On 23 Apr 2017, at 17:02, lutenist.mumin.koide gmail 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dear lute-list,
> 
> Could anyone help me clarify pronunciation of "Vivat Eliza" in Dowland's 
> composition 
> to Sir. Henry Lee's poem "Time's Eldest Son"?
> 
> I thought it could be " viːvæt ("Vivat" read in ecclesiastical Latin?) and " 
> əiːzə" (with this pronunciation it rhymes with "Ave Maria" ) though many sang 
> it " vaɪvæt əlάɪzə" for which I couldn't find any reason...
> 
> Tomoko
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Danzig 4022

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Danny,
You can contact Magdalena Tomsinska who’s done extensive work on Danzig 4022, 
including a long and informative article (unfortunately in Polish only) and a 
list of concordaces. I’m not sure if I can post here her private email, but you 
can find her on Facebook at  https://www.facebook.com/magdalena.tomsinska

Congatulations on your new 10-c.
Best,
Jerzy
—

> On 15 Aug 2016, at 13:08, Daniel Shoskes  wrote:
> 
> Dear Collective Wisdom: I have grown so accustomed to easy access to 
> catalogues and concordances in the baroque lute world thanks to Peter Steur’s 
> excellent website that when I have a Ren Ms to query I feel lost. 
> Specifically, is there a catalogue of the contents of the Danzig 4022 which I 
> have been reading through as I enjoy my new 10 course? Lovely music, a couple 
> of recent fine recordings and many tunes that sound familiar though marked 
> anon. Was even surprised to find a version of the Piccinini Sarabande I just 
> recently made a video of. 
> 
> So generally, is there a Ren lute manuscript resource similar to the Baroque 
> site and specifically, does such a listing exist for the Danzig 4022
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Danny
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Lutelist,

A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little experience 
with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need some advice from 
you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of strings, …if there is such 
"typical" spacing, of course. Anyway, at least a distance between the outer 
strings would be of help, if not all measurements.

Thanks in advance!
Jerzy Z
---




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: polska 41

[Jerzy Zak]

What is that title meaning, Romcio?
JŻ
---

On 2012-06-14, at 06:17, Roman Turovsky wrote:

> "Trond Bengtson Polska" -
> http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/music/polska/polska41.mp3
> http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/music/polska/polska41.pdf
> 
> Enjoy.
> Amitiès,
> RT






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[LUTE] Tansman / de Visée

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear List,

Aleksander Tansman (1897-1986) wrote (or published) his "Musique de Cour" for 
guitar and orchestra, based on music by de Visée, about 1960. What 
editions/publications of de Visée guitar music were then available to him, as I 
doubt he or Segovia, to whom the work was dedicated, used any primary sources 
in tablatuer. I do have Le Pupitre edition (R Strizich) but it was published in 
France in 1969. Was there anything earlier in circulation, before the 1960, so 
inspiring?

Jerzy Zak
---




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[LUTE] diatessaron/diapente

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear friends,

In the Supplement to LUTE NEWS 99 there is a second part of Bach Suite bwv1006a 
intabulated by Wilfred Foxe. It is presented here in a key of D major, quite 
unusually. In the Critical Commentary Wilfred Foxe explains:

"The tonality of the original suite is E major, and this has been transposed by 
a major second to D major. The Weiss Sonata 18 in D Major provides a useful 
structural example since the work makes use of the diatessaron above the 
diapente for a work with a high tessitura. In other of Weiss's sonatas with a 
high tessitura, such as Le fameaux corsaire -- Sonata 22 in F Major, the 
diatessaron is not employed. The fact that the same exists in BWV 1006a is the 
principal reason for adopting D major in preference to F major."

I understand what means "diatessaron" and "diapente" in Greek, as applied to 
historical music theory, but still I understand nothing from Wilfred's 
explanation. Can someone enlighten me on this?

Jurek
---




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[LUTE] Re: modern lute (Gift To The Fall)

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Stuart,

My words were meant as an answer to someon's link, hopefully this was 
understood by most… I won't develope on this, just only share my impression 
that the Gilbert Isbin piece and its rendition on YT convinves me far more then 
the other one, however you call your example an "amateur". So words are fluide…

Some years ago Stephen Dodgson wrote nice duets for two renesaince lutes -- 
where they are? Perhaps they can go along with Anton Höger's intabulations in a 
concert programs? Alltogether, there is place and demand for all standards and 
levels of complication in modern music for historical instruments. You can find 
elements of them in collections/handbooks of Stefan Lundgren or Toyohiko Satoh, 
what seams the best place to look for easy modern music -- for fun and 
edification.

J
-

On 2010-10-09, at 17:52, Stuart Walsh wrote:

> There is an interesting discussion on the Baroque lutelist about modern 
> compositions for D-minor lute. Gilbert Isbin has written some pieces for lute 
> in G tuning.
> 
> Jerzy Zak writes: "Unfortunately, modern music needs playing on the highest 
> level, including a well tuned instrument."  So that counts almost all, if not 
> all, amateurs out. I think that is bit sad!
> 
> Here's a (flawed)  amateur stab at a modern (or contemporary, not sure of the 
> difference) piece by Gilbert Isbin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhDq0q8yGzc
> 
> 
> Stuart
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: 4 lutes

[Jerzy Zak]

To All,
and to Anton,

You are very kind and generous man but please do not use the rapidshare.com 
service in future, as it is definitely not a free service as it may look. I 
have a necessity to use it just few times a year and not by my own choice, so I 
don't feel the necessity to pay for it. But sometime we are directed to there, 
and then the problems come about.

When I see for several minutes that I'm "downloading something" -- which is not 
true, and have to wait, and then the fraze: "You have reached the download 
limit for free-users. Would you like more?" -- having downloaded NOTHING, I 
cannot refrain from reaction. This is a suspicious service built on tricks and 
lies. Anton, and others, please, consider moving you splendid libraries to some 
other places for the benefit of all. And it's not that I so much need to put my 
hands on your stuff at the moment, but it's simply not the place for us. So I 
think ;-)

Kind regards,
Jurek
-


On 2010-04-12, at 16:36, Anton Höger wrote:

> hi,
> 
> and alt last but (perhaps not at least)
> 
> pieces for 4 lutes
> 
> 
> 7.) pieces for 4 Lutes  (4 equal lutes -Unisono)
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374955046/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon_Laute_1.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374955549/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon_Laute_2.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374956181/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon_Laute_3.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374956924/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon_Laute_4.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/375032168/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374957635/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere-L-1.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374958233/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere-L-2.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374958753/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere-L-3.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374959396/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere-L-4.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374960877/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374962266/Giovanni_Gabrielli_-_Hodie_Christus_natus_est.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374962705/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus-L-1.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374963223/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus-L-2.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374963653/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus-L-3.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374964102/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus-L-4.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374965176/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374966138/Lassus_-_Un_jour_l_amant.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 8.) pieces for 4 Lutes  (2 equal lutes & 2 lutes a Quarth deeper (ad Quartam)
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374934733/Bramieri__Claudio_-_Canzona_La_Foccara.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374954465/Gabrieli_-_Chiar__Angioletto.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374947306/Gabrieli_-_Jam_non_dicam.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374931519/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_seconda.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374949951/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni-L-1.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374950645/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni-L-2.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374951307/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni-L-3.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374951995/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni-L-4.pdf
> http://rapidshare.com/files/374953565/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni.pdf
> 
> 
> Have fun and play them. 
> 
> Warm regards
> 
> Anton
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] T Merula

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear All,

I'm looking for a collection of vocal music with continuo : "Il Curtio  
precipitato..." of 1638 by Tarquinio MERULA. Seams that the net is  
full of CD recordings but no edition, either modern score or a  
facsimile. Do you know where to get it from?


Thanks in advance,
Jurek
___



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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

But who invented the "re-entrant"?
J



On 2009-07-10, at 18:26, Mathias Rösel wrote:


Okay, found it out. The term was invented in the 20th century. No
Erzlaute in Grimm's dictionary. The term may sound ancient in German,
but in fact it is an artificial term, created in order to categorize
types of lutes. I'd say, forget Erzlaute.

Mat


Perhaps, it's a matter of dictionaries, indeed. Not sure for English
archlute, but Erzlaute was defined to mean what we'd today call
theorboed lutes by Sachs. Seem to remember he even invented the name.
Will look it up when I'm back home tonight.

As for booklets, Erzlaute isn't very frequen= tly mentioned at all
because there aren't many recordings with arciliuto, liuto  
attiorbato,
archlute available over here. All theorbo players I know will call  
their

instrument Theorbe or Chitarrone, certainly not Erzlaute.

Respectfully, too,

Mathias


  -Original-Nac= hricht-

Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Datum: Fri, 10= Jul 2009 10:48:38 +0200
Von: David Tayler 
An: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" = ;
Although I will of course defer to my German
co= lleagues in matters of native language,
I have used the term for = 35 years in Germany with no problems.
If you take a few hundred C= Ds from the last
thirty years you will find that the term is
usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently.
= You will also find from the same period that a
proportion of the= se CDs also conflates the terms
theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute= , so there can't
be a definite meaning for the terms.
H= istorically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an
a= rchlute.
Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often

  &= gt; are in the disposition of the instruments.

This is understand= able, however, since many
unabridged German dictionaries give Erz= laute as a
synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and
translate it as archlute, not theorbo.
For CDs that are ori= ginally in English or French
those who rely on these dictionaries= for CD notes
and translations thus keep the term current.

  &= gt; In addition, musicological papers as well as

Festival booklet= s from major festivals use not
only these dictionaries but also t= he Grove
Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines,
rig= htly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute.

So it could be = that there is a difference between
the written use of the word an= d the spoken use of
the word, but of course the word mainly appea= rs in printed

  material.


Respectfully,
dt


At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote:

"Jerzy Zak"  schrieb:

= ; > That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays:

  "teorbierte

laute" (or close to that spelling),
<= br />> >

It's become part of the history of research.= With Pohlmann (ch.

  7),

Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theo= rbierte Laute. According to

  his

definition, Theorbenlauten w= ere lutes with first pegboxes bent

  back

and second pegboxes = attached in the direction of the neck.

If I'= m not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed
l= utes today.

To complete confusion, he added:= "Theorbierte Lauten werden auch
Knickhalslauten genannt, di= e auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder
rechts Aufsaetze fuer = die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben."
Theorbierte Lauten= are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with
bent-back necks= ), which have riders on their pegboxes on the  
left

and(or on= the right for the highest or lowest strings.

= ; Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this

  sophisticated
  = > > "definition". My, o my.




= > > the untranslatable to Polish "re-entrant".


  = > > It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either.  
Some

  ha= ve

tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurre= nt,
retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions o= f  
someone
running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tun= ing_ is sort  
of

"coming back".

= ; Mathias



On 2009-07-09= , at 22:14, Mathias Roesel wrote:


&= gt; > And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as

= ; > > > sweeping IMHO,

neglecting differe= nces between the liuto attiorbato, the
arciliuto a= nd the archlute.

Someone= put a language link to it into
http://de.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is

  misleading.

The G= erman term Erzlaute was meant to be generic.

Mathias


= > "Jerzy Zak"  schrieb:
&g= t;

David,
Than= ks for that.

B= esides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the

= > > "latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites



". I'm absolutely
  = > > > > > not qualified to comment on that, but would love t=  
o read

other's -- just to remind it's still "= untouched" by other
pluckers. Perhaps some lu= te 

[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, it is not "simplified" view of a famous player…
I won't go further on, however I'm temped ;-)
J
_

But I can easily imagine Falckenhagen playing Weiss on his instrument.
By the way, is somewhere in image of that Straube's lute which  
Geinsborough(?spelling) bought from him in London?

J


On 2009-07-10, at 16:54, Roman Turovsky wrote:

The englaving is unusually precise. Look for the strange slots cut  
in the walls of the pegbox. especially the bass side.

It sure looks like an angelique to me.
RT

- Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" 
To: "Karl-L. Eggert" 
Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List" 
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:46 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute


Dear Karl,
I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years
and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of
some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single
strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single
strings. It is possible.

Thanks for the observation,
Jurek



On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote:


J,
if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than   
13 or 14.


Karl

- Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" 
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute



On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote:


The problem here is that single stringing is historical,

..

Yeee...
There are men who loves "chaos", they need it to breath, to   
florish,  in the best possible terms.
Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and  
establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence.

Some are doing this and saying the other ;-)

The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely   
in  our hands. Look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco
Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man,  
his   opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla  
bla,  etc.,  etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again.  
Wishful  thinking, a  florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence?  
Is it a  trick or a very  simple matter of fact?


Single stringing is historical ;-)))

J
__



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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, it is not "simplified" view of a famous player. Look at the  
6-line staves, with all its unevennesses and shades, and many other  
detailes… It's obvious, Falckenhagen was a man of his time… (you can  
develope it however you like). His own music has nothing to do with  
Weiss or JSBach, which he probably transcribed, perhaps in his Leipzig  
school years. It is the time of the Mannheim school, Leopold Mozart  
and so on. Consider the articulation resources of the time needed or  
indispensable. Etc…


I won't go further on, however I'm temped ;-)
J
_

On 2009-07-10, at 16:54, Roman Turovsky wrote:

The englaving is unusually precise. Look for the strange slots cut  
in the walls of the pegbox. especially the bass side.

It sure looks like an angelique to me.
RT

- Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" 
To: "Karl-L. Eggert" 
Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List" 
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:46 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute


Dear Karl,
I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years
and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of
some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single
strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single
strings. It is possible.

Thanks for the observation,
Jurek



On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote:


J,
if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than   
13 or 14.


Karl

- Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" 
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute



On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote:


The problem here is that single stringing is historical,

..

Yeee...
There are men who loves "chaos", they need it to breath, to   
florish,  in the best possible terms.
Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and  
establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence.

Some are doing this and saying the other ;-)

The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely   
in  our hands. Look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco
Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man,  
his   opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla  
bla,  etc.,  etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again.  
Wishful  thinking, a  florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence?  
Is it a  trick or a very  simple matter of fact?


Single stringing is historical ;-)))

J
__



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[LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Karl,
I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years  
and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of  
some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single  
strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single  
strings. It is possible.


Thanks for the observation,
Jurek



On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote:


J,
if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than  
13 or 14.


Karl

- Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" 
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute



On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote:


The problem here is that single stringing is historical,

..

Yeee...
There are men who loves "chaos", they need it to breath, to  
florish,  in the best possible terms.
Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and  
establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence.

Some are doing this and saying the other ;-)

The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely  
in  our hands. Look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco
Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his   
opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla,  
etc.,  etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful  
thinking, a  florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a  
trick or a very  simple matter of fact?


Single stringing is historical ;-)))

J
__



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[LUTE] Re: The Glogauer Liederbuch

[Jerzy Zak]

Try to contact Dr Pawel Gancarczyk
pawel.gancarc...@ispan.pl

from IS PAN (The Institute of Art - Polish Academy of Science)
http://www.ispan.pl/eng/instituteofart.htm

In his "choice of publications" (Wybor publikacji) you can find in  
English e.g.:

http://www.ispan.pl/stronyprac/ISPAN/gancarczyk_pawel.php

-- The Neapolitan Repertory in the Glogauer Liederbuch, [in:] Polish  
Musical Culture within the European Context, red. Zofia Helman,  
Warszawa 2004, s. 38–48 (= Musicology Today 1)

-- …also other texts, either close to, or in Polish or German

and a review of:
Dieter Kirsch, Lenz Meierott: Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau,  
Mainz 1992, „Muzyka” 45: 2000, nr 1, s. 87–89


The Glogauer Liederbuch is at the Jagiellonian Library, Krakow, Poland  
at the moment

http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/index_en.php
and you can simply order a microfilm or digitized copy. The copies  
does the same man who's done the Spinacino two years ago for his 500th  
anniversary. Quite good.


Regards,
Jurek
__


On 2009-07-10, at 15:54, nedma...@aol.com wrote:


  Does anyone know if there is an edition of the Glogauer Liederbuch
  currently available?  A search on the web gives me information about
  it, but not if it's available.  Amazon lists it as out of print and
  either unavailable or of limited availability.

  Ned






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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2009-07-10, at 14:09, David van Ooijen wrote:


On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Jerzy Zak wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco



Single stringing is historical ;-)))




As is playing from empty scores. ;-)

David


That's right! I know one wired gamba player and composer(!) who once  
has done a fantastic performance, as if reading from a score. After  
the concert we've seen the "score"… and that was the best part


J
___




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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote:


The problem here is that single stringing is historical,

..

Yeee...
There are men who loves "chaos", they need it to breath, to florish,  
in the best possible terms.
Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and  
establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence.

Some are doing this and saying the other ;-)

The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in  
our hands. Look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco
Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his  
opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc.,  
etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a  
florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very  
simple matter of fact?


Single stringing is historical ;-)))

J
__



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Quite possible!, must find some recordings, seriously.
…
OK, just recent historical music ;))

J


On 2009-07-10, at 00:33, Roman Turovsky wrote:

And in the case of Eisler and Dessau it can be positively classy,  
especially when Gisela May sung to such an accompaniment.

RT

From: "Jerzy Zak" 
Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an
eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord,
at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and
composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-))

j
_


On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote:

I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between   
hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a "whorehouse  
harpsichord".

It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler.
RT (fan of both)


- Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" 
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List" 
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute


That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: "teorbierte
laute" (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an
awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter  
what.

Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g.
the untranslatable to Polish "re-entrant". As the early music  
movement

is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the
last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years.

Now, tell me what is "wanzenklavier" - ? I'm looking closer at some
XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros "Tierverse für Gesang,
Gitarre und Wanzenklavier" by Paul Dessau.

J
__

On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote:

And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping  
IMHO,
neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the  
arciliuto  and

the archlute.

Someone put a language link to it into
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The
German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic.

Mathias

"Jerzy Zak"  schrieb:

David,
Thanks for that.

Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the "latest
semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites

". I'm absolutely

not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's --
just to remind it's still "untouched" by other pluckers. Perhaps   
some

lute exemple

??


J
_


On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote:


Archlute
dt

At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote:

What is an "Erzlaute"?
The other instruments pecified on the page are "organ,   
harpsichord,

violins, cello, guitar, theorbE".

jz




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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an  
eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord,  
at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and  
composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-))


j
_


On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote:

I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between  
hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a "whorehouse harpsichord".

It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler.
RT (fan of both)


- Original Message ----- From: "Jerzy Zak" 
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List" 
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute


That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: "teorbierte
laute" (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an
awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what.
Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g.
the untranslatable to Polish "re-entrant". As the early music movement
is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the
last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years.

Now, tell me what is "wanzenklavier" - ? I'm looking closer at some
XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros "Tierverse für Gesang,
Gitarre und Wanzenklavier" by Paul Dessau.

J
__

On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote:

And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping   
IMHO,
neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto  
and

the archlute.

Someone put a language link to it into
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The
German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic.

Mathias

"Jerzy Zak"  schrieb:

David,
Thanks for that.

Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the "latest
semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites

". I'm absolutely

not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's --
just to remind it's still "untouched" by other pluckers. Perhaps  
some

lute exemple

??


J
_


On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote:


Archlute
dt

At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote:

What is an "Erzlaute"?
The other instruments pecified on the page are "organ,  
harpsichord,

violins, cello, guitar, theorbE".

jz




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: "teorbierte  
laute" (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an  
awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what.  
Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g.  
the untranslatable to Polish "re-entrant". As the early music movement  
is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the  
last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years.


Now, tell me what is "wanzenklavier" - ? I'm looking closer at some  
XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros "Tierverse für Gesang,  
Gitarre und Wanzenklavier" by Paul Dessau.


J
__

On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote:

And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping  
IMHO,

neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and
the archlute.

Someone put a language link to it into
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The
German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic.

Mathias

"Jerzy Zak"  schrieb:

David,
Thanks for that.

Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the "latest
semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites

". I'm absolutely

not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's --
just to remind it's still "untouched" by other pluckers. Perhaps some
lute exemple

??


J
_


On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote:


Archlute
dt

At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote:

What is an "Erzlaute"?
The other instruments pecified on the page are "organ, harpsichord,
violins, cello, guitar, theorbE".

jz




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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

David,
Thanks for that.

Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the "latest  
semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites…". I'm absolutely  
not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's --  
just to remind it's still "untouched" by other pluckers. Perhaps some  
lute exemple…??


J
_


On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote:


Archlute
dt

At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote:

What is an "Erzlaute"?
The other instruments pecified on the page are "organ, harpsichord,
violins, cello, guitar, theorbE".

jz
___




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[LUTE] Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

What is an "Erzlaute"?
The other instruments pecified on the page are "organ, harpsichord,  
violins, cello, guitar, theorbE".


jz
___




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[LUTE] Re: Lost Berlin Manuscripts

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Luca,
A short list of them you can see here:
http://www-bnus.u-strasbg.fr/Smt/pl.htm
Jurek

--
Dear Luca,

Wouldn't it be more usefull to get hold of a younger publication?:
Dieter Kursch, Lenz Meierott (ed.) - Berliner Lautentabulaturen in  
Krakau, Schott 1992.


Leaving aside all the old legends from the pre-1980's, you'll get from  
the book detailed descriptions with incipits of all the Berlin  
tablatures now at the Jagiellonian Library. And they are no longer  
"lost" or kept in secret, you can order copies of all of them, as if  
they were in Berlin or anywhere in the world:


http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/index_en.php

Best,
Jurek
___


On 2009-04-06, at 21:28, Luca Manassero wrote:


Dear all,

 I have unsuccessfully tried to find a copy of the famous paper:

P. J. P. Whitehead, "The Lost Berlin Manuscripts", in Notes, The  
Quarterly Journal of the Musical Library Association  (33)1976, pp.  
7-15


As you may know this article covers the interesting story concerning  
the collection of music manuscripts in the Jagellonian Library in  
Krakow, Poland, including lute manuscripts.
The article is (at least to me) impossible to get or buy, and  
therefore to read.

If someone has a way to help, please address the answer privately.

Thank you in advance,

Luca



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[LUTE] Re: Lost Berlin Manuscripts

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Luca,

Wouldn't it be more usefull to get hold of a younger publication?:
Dieter Kursch, Lenz Meierott (ed.) - Berliner Lautentabulaturen in  
Krakau, Schott 1992.


Leaving aside all the old legends from the pre-1980's, you'll get from  
the book detailed descriptions with incipits of all the Berlin  
tablatures now at the Jagiellonian Library. And they are no longer  
"lost" or kept in secret, you can order copies of all of them, as if  
they were in Berlin or anywhere in the world:


http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/index_en.php

Best,
Jurek
___


On 2009-04-06, at 21:28, Luca Manassero wrote:


Dear all,

  I have unsuccessfully tried to find a copy of the famous paper:

P. J. P. Whitehead, "The Lost Berlin Manuscripts", in Notes, The  
Quarterly Journal of the Musical Library Association  (33)1976, pp.  
7-15


As you may know this article covers the interesting story concerning  
the collection of music manuscripts in the Jagellonian Library in  
Krakow, Poland, including lute manuscripts.
The article is (at least to me) impossible to get or buy, and  
therefore to read.

If someone has a way to help, please address the answer privately.

Thank you in advance,

Luca



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[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2009-02-09, at 16:39, David Rastall wrote:


On Feb 9, 2009, at 5:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position,
that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical
evidence about that very same point. You will find it there :

for the renaissance :   http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html
for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html
for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html


It's fascinating to examine those images of past players, just as it
is to watch players today, but let's not forget what that examination
teach us:  that each player's right hand, living or dead, is
different to all the others.  There must be a message in that
somewhere...


But of course!, a cleare message [...]
J


davidr
dlu...@verizon.net






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[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism

[Jerzy Zak]

I like your comment very much. I might only add that if the sound  
idea is ''before'' the instrument, then in between is the hand. So,  
to put it a bit facetiously, if one has a 'heavy hand'', the tension  
of strings, and therefore a hand position, is no problem... ;-))  
There is of course no logic or science behind it, but quite human  
observation.

J
___

On 2009-02-09, at 13:06, vance wood wrote:

Thank you for posting these images.  I have never had a comment on  
this subject before.  What do I know?  However; the Renaissance  
images confirm what I have always done, and not because the  
pictures say to do so but because the instrument sounds better if  
played somewhere a bit "South" of the center of the Rose.  I do not  
play Baroque Lute but I understand the general consensus is to play  
just "North" of the bridge, often with the little finger on or  
behind the bridge.  I think that the same result of "it sounds  
better" is the reason.  I think the probable reason is the tension  
of the strings.  I assume the strings on a Baroque Lute to be  
lighter in tension and would buzz, rattle and become muddy in sound  
if played closer to the Rose.  Playing closer to the bridge adds  
the effect of a higher tension to the strings.  Just my conjecture  
and means little---or maybe not, but I know of no one who has  
pointed this out.  The old proverb in discussions about who shot  
John is always followed by the proverb follow the money. When it  
comes to music I think the proverb should be, and probably is,  
follow the sound.


VW
- Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier"  


To: "lute" 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:56 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism


May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand  
position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with  
iconographical evidence about that very same point. You will find  
it there :


for the renaissance :   http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html
for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html
for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html

I will let you choose your conclusion ;-))

Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 09-02-2009 11:45:05 ===


If all the pictures show us that the RH was at
the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing.

dt

At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote:

From: ""Mathias Rösel"" 

"All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures
show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How
seriously should we take this?" Barto


Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not
religiously, of course >B)
Mathias

An unexpectedly Gallic opinion!
RT




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[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism

[Jerzy Zak]

Anthony,


On 2009-02-08, at 19:16, Anthony Hind wrote:

Indeed, there are signs that there were disagreements, between  
lutenists of past times.



About the practice of using Bologna lutes...



Some lutenists like Mace and Jacques Gautier, who seem to...



The description by Mace of J. Gautier showing...


We see that the king, and one of Jacques Gaultier's students bought  
these lutes, not Gaultier, himself, who...


While in Burwell, in contrast, we see a scathing attack on  
Gautier's 12c lute.


This makes me think that even then, there could be controversy  
between "ancients and moderns"...


Fantastic!!! I'd love to have all this in a book format. I think you  
are certainly able and qualified to do it. Anthony, please, write a  
handbook for lutenists. As for now, I'm struggling today for a bit of  
time to practice, as beside of having a good master and a talent, by  
all means one need a motivation for a hard work. Another truism (to  
annoy Roman ;-)).


Am I wrong or not but all appogiaturas I hear are sharp  
''backwords'', not to say about other ''nuances''...


I am afraid I have not quite understood this last remark, so I can  
not tell you whether you are mistaken or not.


This was seemingly out of this topic, but you've included the exemple  
here so I couldn't resist a reaction. But I should rather extract it  
and put into the ''French trill''.


To put it simple, evidently Satoh, a master for more then one  
generation of lute players, since some time in avant-guard of  
research on stringing, an icon of a ''new'' right hand approach to  
baroque technique, playes the basic French appogiatura (notated with  
a coma after a letter) in such a unorthodox way??? And I know, his  
students do the same.


You may take it as a critic, as I wolud do 5 or 25 years ago. But it  
is a wider thing. You can find questionable elements in playing of  
several people, including ''stars'', but in such cases it is never  
discused -- to delicate? Or perhaps it desn't matter, like single  
strung instruments, hybrids, toy-theorboes, prevailing renesans  
tuning on archlutes in most baroque continuo performances. etc, etc.


I think the EM movement once was a stroke of genius, but from the  
start it had a concealed virus (or more then one) -- an immanent  
conflict between historical evidence and common musical sens. Now it  
is to obvious and hundreds of HIP cases testify to this, every day.  
Let's be honest...


But I'd love to have your book on phisics of lute!
And I value your knowledge, immensaly.


Regards
Anthony


Jurek
___





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[LUTE] Re: Karamazov

[Jerzy Zak]

Karamazov and Dilettantism! Really fascinating. Is anybody brave  
enough to throw an exegesis on the combination? Is Karamazov a  
perversely hidden dilettante dressed up in attributes of great  
virtuoso or is he an evangelist of true and clean expression, just  
the instrument (a bit moded but still not enough) isn't perfect?  
Anyway, it's a case strong and human, beside of being a musical one.  
Several captions comes to mind on a long distance between master and  
hustler. One thing is certain -- he will provoke.


J
_

On 2009-02-08, at 17:49, Roman Turovsky wrote:

A difficult question, the "loneliness at the top" being poor excuse  
for elation.
I know for a fact that those Things of Beauty that Deviate from the  
Protocol do in fact get documentably appreciated. That surely helps  
to deal with the indifferent world.

RT


I tend to identify with
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov"  


To: "Roman Turovsky" 
Cc: "lute" 
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov


It may well be exactly the case when the truth is depressing; but  
wouldn't it, at the same time, leave you feeling elated?

AB

- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky"  


To: "Daniel Shoskes" 
Cc: "lute" 
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:43 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov



That would be too depressing to believe.
RT

From: "Daniel Shoskes" 
Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, "maybe  
we're just

not that into him"







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[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism

[Jerzy Zak]

Anthony,

I'm really fascinted by your detailed analyzis of all technicall  
matters concerning lute construction, stringing and playing. I wish I  
had such an eye on all this things. But in my experience, after some  
40 years of observations of teaching music playing (including my own  
regular education) I'm more and more incined to think that the  
deciding requirement in a good music peformance is... a talent. And a  
personal contact with a master. That was obvious in historical times  
and persist until now, despite all technologicall advance.


As all know, there are several methods of playing -- a historical  
one, a modern one (a post-modern one ;-))) and all in between. But  
aside from the method, a player needs a good ear and a complex  
musical inteligence which guides him how to get the most from his  
instrument (when he pics up another instrument he may finde that  
another method or place to place his fingers is better). An  
instantanous feed-back is a pre condition, like with a new car (or  
horse) which you are trying to bridle. After years you may develope a  
method which for you is good one, for others may not.


Bthat is becouse a method is not the case. I'm pretty sure past  
players played in a hudge variety of ways and we can only take very  
general guidelines from them. What guided them (the good ones of  
course) and shoud assist us, presently and always, is a musical end  
to which mastering of an instrument leads. What is this 'musical end'  
is a wide topic and can serve for another thread.


What I wanted to say is that inicially a player needs a master (or  
rather masters, as combination of some two particular people may not  
always work) and some kind and amount of musical talent. The rest of  
the way lies in his hands and ears, must fit to his body (or the  
other way arround) and be convincing to more then him. I'm simply  
against mythologisation of a method and believe in a unique human  
gift, which has been pushed aside in most discussions on HIP.


By the way...


I note that Satoh, is perhaps even further back (low tension), but
with with Gautier TO shape, see here, and also listen to the effect:
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TastingBaroque.html
http://tinyurl.com/2vxntm

Listen
http://tinyurl.com/2rsk5p


Am I wrong or not but all appogiaturas I hear are sharp  
''backwords'', not to say about other ''nuances''...



I am interested in acquiring a deeper undesrtanding of these issues,
not necessarily looking for a catechism.


Me too, only the balance matters.

J
__




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[LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill

[Jerzy Zak]

Quite funny -- Karamazov (by accident of course!) in context of  
dilettantism on the list now...

;-))
J


On 2009-02-07, at 09:55, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


;-) Honest, Roman ?

JM

=== 07-02-2009 01:48:26 ===



Musicality.
RT
- Original Message -
From: "Mark Wheeler" 
To: "'Roman Turovsky'" ; "'Lutelist'"

Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:45 PM
Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill


At what?





jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
http://poirierjm.free.fr
07-02-2009




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[LUTE] Re: tremolo was Tench Frill

[Jerzy Zak]

David, you prevailed me, you are a true visionary.
J
__


On 2009-02-05, at 11:30, David Tayler wrote:

"as strong as the rattle of dice in a box" was the way it was  
described :)

dt

  At 12:23 AM 2/5/2009, you wrote:

On 2009-02-04, at 21:30, David Tayler wrote:


BTW, the tremolo is more interesting than the vibrato in early
recordings. People stopped using it. And it sure sounds better
without it. I'd trade vibrato for tremolo any day. Nobody talks
about that, but it is the biggest single change in performance in
the 20th century.


Conchita Supervia- Spanish singer, 1895- 1936. Did some very
interesting things with her voice. Also had the ability to refrain
from doing them.



What is tremolo in singing or on melody instrument?
J


--



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[LUTE] Re: Haynes Book, was French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Excuse me, but are we talking about some rare forgotten curiosity of  
someones articulation or a term on par with vibrato, considering  
modern termonology. Until now I thought 'tremolo' is a fast  
repetition of one or two notes, as in scoring (orchestration/ 
instrumentation) for bowed strings, but also known as a 'guitar  
tremolo'.


I think, David shoud reply what he means.
Regards,
J
_

On 2009-02-05, at 09:23, Daniel Winheld wrote:


On 2009-02-04, at 21:30, David Tayler wrote:


BTW, the tremolo is more interesting than the vibrato in early
recordings. People stopped using it. And it sure sounds better
without it. I'd trade vibrato for tremolo any day. Nobody talks
about that, but it is the biggest single change in performance in
the 20th century.


Conchita Supervia- Spanish singer, 1895- 1936. Did some very
interesting things with her voice. Also had the ability to refrain
from doing them.


What is tremolo in singing or on melody instrument?
J







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[LUTE] Re: Haynes Book, was French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2009-02-04, at 21:30, David Tayler wrote:

BTW, the tremolo is more interesting than the vibrato in early  
recordings. People stopped using it. And it sure sounds better  
without it. I'd trade vibrato for tremolo any day. Nobody talks  
about that, but it is the biggest single change in performance in  
the 20th century.


What is tremolo in singing or on melody instrument?
J
_




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[LUTE] Re: players getting better--was Trench Fill

[Jerzy Zak]

Michal,
Welcome to the list!
J
__

On 2009-02-04, at 17:27, Michał Jasionowski wrote:


   2009/2/3 <[1]chriswi...@yahoo.com>

 Unfortunately for human society, the strongest, best,
 most sensible evolutionary advances in any field are
 hopelessly pitted against an even more powerful and
 ruthless force: fashion.
 Chris



   So maybe they just aren't the best ones? Also, the most adapted  
species
   die because they are more vulnerable to any change of  
environment. And

   for musicians changes in fashions means changes of environment.

   Michal






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[LUTE] Re: SLW, again

[Jerzy Zak]

No
J
_

On 2009-02-04, at 00:18, Edward Martin wrote:


Is there an English translation?

ed

At 11:05 PM 2/3/2009 +0100, Jerzy Zak wrote:


--===AVGMAIL-4988C134===
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It is absolutely mad and crazy text, I have never said such
stupidities as the author relates. I see one has to be extremaly
carefull about those gazetteers of popular local papers. But all in
all they generated a positive movement arround Weiss and the lute. Of
course this is the strongest theory that Weiss was born in Grottkau/
Grotkow, close to certainty, but future will have to prove it still.

J
_

On 2009-02-03, at 22:44, Bernd Haegemann wrote:


that was the print version, here is the whole newspaper :-)

http://www.nto.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/
POWIAT05/92517093






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Silvius Leopold W.

[Jerzy Zak]

I hope so.
Regards
J
_

On 2009-02-03, at 23:24, Markus Lutz wrote:


Hello Bernd and Jurek,
I only understand: Weiss, Grodkow, Jerzy Zak ...
So Grodkow now finally celebrates Weiss as son of the town, isn't it?

Best regards
Markus


Bernd Haegemann schrieb:
Wow, while we are talking ..others are already making an idol of  
SLW :-)
http://www.nto.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/ 
POWIAT05/92517093&Template=printpicart To get on or off this list  
see list information at

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--

Markus Lutz
Schulstraße 11

88422 Bad Buchau

Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

Homepages
http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss)






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[LUTE] Re: SLW, again

[Jerzy Zak]

It is absolutely mad and crazy text, I have never said such  
stupidities as the author relates. I see one has to be extremaly  
carefull about those gazetteers of popular local papers. But all in  
all they generated a positive movement arround Weiss and the lute. Of  
course this is the strongest theory that Weiss was born in Grottkau/ 
Grotkow, close to certainty, but future will have to prove it still.


J
_

On 2009-02-03, at 22:44, Bernd Haegemann wrote:


that was the print version, here is the whole newspaper :-)

http://www.nto.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/ 
POWIAT05/92517093




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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

David,

No, nothing against, you gave a vivid description of your learned  
way. The other thing is that my ''definition'' of deconstruction is  
only half of the truth, but that's not important for now.


Besides, I keck at the sight of such incantations as


...one learns more form one note of a great player than...


and


...music is forever.



But poetry and love are rare today and should be respected.
I appreciate your faith in EM but will stay in my uncertain quest for  
another answer.


J
___


On 2009-02-03, at 20:29, David Rastall wrote:


On Feb 3, 2009, at 12:52 PM, Jerzy Zak wrote:


So you both think ''deconstruction'' as a method is bad. Hm, I
wonder if we all think about the same. But I fear you are
permanently deconstructing the music lying on your music stand and
joining up together some way..., aren't you?


Well, let's see...a piece of paper lying on a music stand;  most
probably therefore a piece of music;  letters arranged in such ways
that I can recognize lute tablature;  the words "Allemande" and
"Robert De Visee" at the top tell me it's French Baroque lute music;
my efforts to understand it further lie in trying to interpret this
music in accordance with some generally-accepted very broad-brush
"French Baroque" paradigm.  Or, in an even more "priviledged" mode of
interpretation, they would lie in my own personal response to what I
perceive as a sub-text peculiar to French Baroque.  Perhaps the sub-
text is entirely my own, in which case I may be excluding any number
of possible ways to play De Visee in favor of that particular way
that fits my own perceptions i.e. my own experience impacting upon
itself to produce "meaning."

Unless I'm not reading the gifted bard(s) aright, wouldn't
deconstructionists argue against most of that?

Davidr
dlu...@verizon.net






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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

David T, David R,


On 2009-02-03, at 17:30, David Rastall wrote:


On Feb 3, 2009, at 1:19 AM, David Tayler wrote:


I'm old fashioned, I guess;  I think the old ways are better.


You mean your father and grandfather's or the Bocquet and Mouton way?  
As I'd objectively appreciate and trust the first solution (at last  
you should remember), I'd be much concerned about the second, as I  
know close to nothing.



We love to change the past in order to make it better.  Or so we
rationalize.  Didn't JS Bach add his own basso continuo to one of the
Palestrina masses.  Yikes!!!  But Bach himself, who I think had great
respect for the "stile antico" would have thought that he was
improving the piece by bringing it up to date.


A piece of music consist of an abstract structure and a performance  
in certain way. Bach, I suppose, did nothing to improve the abstract  
structure, just performed it his way, as continuo is a matter of  
''performance practice''.



The question is, what exactly were the old ways?  Did the old ones
play their allemandes and bourees with their local lute god's
fingering and ornament instructions propped up in front of them.  I
imagine they all did at first, but sooner or later one has to go
beyond the primer stage and get into the music on one's own terms.


This is simply at certain time and place a fashion of doing things  
one or the other way, like wearing jacket or a long coat. Often there  
is a guru who dictates it through his publications or popularity.  
Most follow him...



Segovia once likened all the rules and regulations involved in
learning music, as a scaffolding:  eventually the scaffolding has to
come down, and the building will then, hopefully, be able to stand on
its own...


We lived up to a time when computers can present such an abstract  
vision of a piece. But people, by nature, all the time dress it with  
something extra. We too, with our lutes, just differently then  
Segovia. Unfortunately we have no recording of Dowland and Sor ;-)  
Thus, there is no objective image of a piece+execussion, as there is  
no objective history -- we are creating it always anew. Sad?  
Inspiring? Dangerous?



I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a
whole book of deconstructionist.


Absolutely!  Deconstruction is temporary;  music is forever.


So you both think ''deconstruction'' as a method is bad. Hm, I wonder  
if we all think about the same. But I fear you are permanently  
deconstructing the music lying on your music stand and joining up  
together some way..., aren't you?



DR
dlu...@verizon.net


J
__




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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

If it's still about ''French trill'', I'd insist -- it's ''ours  
trill'', however long would be someone's explanations and  
justifications.


Therefore the HIP performance is always ''modern'' or ''currant'' or  
''today'' (without going into the present day entangled terminology).  
In a way the Early Music World permanently tamper or fake the truth  
about the performance practice -- which is in reality inaccessible  
after 200 or 400 years -- everyday only pleasing our eclectic notion  
what ''was'' good at certain time.


Once, 30 or 50 or 70 years ago, it was a ''modern'' revolutionary  
approach (then ''modern music'', just based on old scores) in  
opposition to a ''traditional'', evolutionary or conservative  
attitude (however reaching for new scores)... Today it is largely  
commercialized and we are not asked what it is.


Another side. So called ''sources'', copies of instruments, strings,  
etc. are very atractive gadgets of strong historical foundation. But  
judges are we! The same people who by iPods.


Every year musicologists are bringing up a new crap on which they've  
been working for years and building their PhDs (Musicology seams very  
afirmative). Is it realy all what has patine worth playing? Is the  
''old music'' synonymous to ''good music'' ...without you super- 
active and creative participation? Today.


Have you ever uncovered, after some ''deconstruction'' work, that a  
familiar gem is not such a jewel, as you were taught for years. Is  
every French Menuet or entire Kellner or the so called ''early  
Weiss'' from, say, Harrah MS, or half of Falckenhagen or... (you name  
what) really worth your time, or it's only an atractive historical  
cookie for verbal mill?


So let's be honest? Is the early music old or new music?
And what are the implications?

J






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[LUTE] Re: Old Satoh Vinyl Recording

[Jerzy Zak]

Becouse people quite often don't hear while listening. But if you'll  
tell them you are playing on gut, then it is entirely different story.

J
___

On 2009-02-02, at 19:28, howard posner wrote:


How do gut strings mask incompetence?


However gut has been used lately to mask various forms/degrees of
incompetence.







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[LUTE] French trill + New thrill

[Jerzy Zak]

OK, then live music is always (?) fresh and ''currant'' (instead of  
''modern''), whatever you'd say about its origin or background.


Now, concerning the ''replication of the past'' versus ''continuation  
of the school'', don't you think that since long -- perhaps 20 or 30  
years -- lutemakers basically stopped making exact replicas and are  
rather making new lutes, however of course, based on several  
principals what they think is ''a good lute'' or ''a good theorbo''  
&ct...


But is there now any luteplayer, virtuoso and composer, who is able  
to continue, too, the tradition of creating and performing his new  
(or at least processed old) ricercars, sonatas, allemades, waltzes,  
tangos, sambas... as idiomatic lute compositions?, and people are  
buying his CD like their newly ordered lutes based on...


J
___

On 2009-02-02, at 11:31, Mark Wheeler wrote:
I am always very uneasy about using the word Modern; it is a term  
that by

its nature is destined to be "out of date" very quickly.

Thank (fill in you own imagined deity) we live in a post-modern  
world...





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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

I know of the book but don't have it yet. But I know Taruskin also  
from a second hand relations. So I must tell, I don't feel as a  
victime of any crisis without access to medicine. Do you think I  
should apply myself the same mental disease?


Obviously 25 years ago, when I was reading with flushes on my face  
all available (and unavailable) sources, listening to the stars of  
EM, giving interviews with myself (oh, yes)... I thought the early  
music movement will last for ever ;-)) Now I've happily forgotten 3/4  
of those books and the feeling of a mission. Music will always be  
fresh and modern, whatever you could say about a particular style or  
a piece. One thing is well to remember -- we are permanently  
reproducing the past, either conciously or unconciously, including  
the music (not only since 1950s or 60s), just reproducing in  
different clothes. And in music, as in arts, the dress is the thing.  
So I wear my music as I like or am able...


But I know ''the sources'', only my mics are not that good ;-))
J


On 2009-02-02, at 00:10, Mark Wheeler wrote:

You should check out Bruce Haynes book "The end of early music", it  
is a
great antidote to the recent crisis that the HIP movement received  
from

Taruskin's writings.

You can read a few pages here

http://www.amazon.co.uk/End-Early-Music-Performers-Twenty-first/dp/ 
019518987

6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233529394&sr=8-1

Mark

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Jerzy Zak [mailto:jurek...@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 1. Februar 2009 23:30
An: lute
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?

Of course, the paradox concernes us, creators and consumers of music
and our vision of the modern phenomenon called ''historical music''.
It is a fancy interplay between science and art, it's a modern thing
in music history -- isn't it?, and in a way quite logically it's
''modern music'' as well, however strange it may sound to all.

J
___

On 2009-02-01, at 20:12, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

I agree, Jerzy, but isn't it rather the paradox(es) of so called
"historical musicians" ...???
Jean-Marie   ;-)
=== 01-02-2009 19:38:37 ===


These are paradoxes of the so called historical music.
J







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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, the paradox concernes us, creators and consumers of music  
and our vision of the modern phenomenon called ''historical music''.  
It is a fancy interplay between science and art, it's a modern thing  
in music history -- isn't it?, and in a way quite logically it's  
''modern music'' as well, however strange it may sound to all.


J
___

On 2009-02-01, at 20:12, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
I agree, Jerzy, but isn't it rather the paradox(es) of so called  
"historical musicians" ...???

Jean-Marie   ;-)
=== 01-02-2009 19:38:37 ===


These are paradoxes of the so called historical music.
J






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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Andreas,


On 2009-02-01, at 18:50, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

Here's what Denis Gaultier (or M.de Montarcis) wrote as last  
comment in rule 7 in the Livre de tablature (in French - for  
English translation see the article of Jorge Torres in the recent  
LSA Journal):
... mais il faut observer que chacun peut ménager ces especes d  
agreements, selon la nature du chant de la piece et du mouvement.


What in the Torres translation reads: ''...But it must be observed  
that everyone can treat these kinds of ornaments, according to the  
nature of the piece’s melody and its tempo (mouvement).''
What now it may sound like: ...listen to the music arround and look  
how people are singing and playing similar passages; but if in doubt,  
come to my place, it's Rue de Vaugirard 7...''


But it was over 330 years ago, alas... Such is the ''precise nature''  
of historical sources. We'd now need a cold technical instruction,  
which is hard to find. But even if it is somewhere, it's still not  
enough. It's music, and one needs and Artist to bring it to life  
again. He puts his stemp on it, which for some is a new religion, for  
others unacceptable.


These are paradoxes of the so called historical music.

J
___


Andreas

Am 01.02.2009 um 17:52 schrieb Jerzy Zak:

The problem is, it is a long note and a simple ''shake/trill''  
concisting of three notes (as one can surmise from Mersenne  
twisting description) biginning from the main note, is not enough.  
It is a long note and long notes invite something extra, something  
special.


The well known Lacrimae by JD also in some sources begins with an  
ornamental sign on the third of its first chord (it is also a  
doted crochet). Does the Bocquet's Allemande (1640<->1680) belongs  
to the earlier performance tradition (lets call it Dowland- 
Mersenne) or to the later one (say Brossard-Mouton)?


I think it may be a question of our very personal taste and  
stylistic preference. Each style, to be rendered convincingly,  
needs to be very, very familiarized with it. A quick, intensive  
research is not enough. Sometime an answer to a tiny problem is  
somewhere between lines, to be rediscovered through years, and  
most refinements are permanently lost. Ornamentation is such a  
refinement.


But lets not forget about ouerseves. Here and Now! We can not only  
keep reproducing the lost art, but also continue the ''school''  
and bring forward new refinements. In fact sometinme it can be the  
only feasible thing, however some will insiste to call it HIP.


J
___



Simple shake (simplified):

.4   1   2 2 2 2 2 2  (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver)
---|-a--#e-e-|
-a-|-a-r-a-r-a-r'--a-|
---|-a---|
---|-a---|
---|-|
---|-|
. ///a

Shake preceded by appogiatura (simplified):

.4   2 1   2 2 2 2 2 2  (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver)
---|---a--#e-e-|
-a-|-r-a-r-a-r'--a-|
---|-a-|
---|-a-|
---|---|
---|---|
. ///a

Mathias







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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

The problem is, it is a long note and a simple ''shake/trill''  
concisting of three notes (as one can surmise from Mersenne twisting  
description) biginning from the main note, is not enough. It is a  
long note and long notes invite something extra, something special.


The well known Lacrimae by JD also in some sources begins with an  
ornamental sign on the third of its first chord (it is also a doted  
crochet). Does the Bocquet's Allemande (1640<->1680) belongs to the  
earlier performance tradition (lets call it Dowland-Mersenne) or to  
the later one (say Brossard-Mouton)?


I think it may be a question of our very personal taste and stylistic  
preference. Each style, to be rendered convincingly, needs to be  
very, very familiarized with it. A quick, intensive research is not  
enough. Sometime an answer to a tiny problem is somewhere between  
lines, to be rediscovered through years, and most refinements are  
permanently lost. Ornamentation is such a refinement.


But lets not forget about ouerseves. Here and Now! We can not only  
keep reproducing the lost art, but also continue the ''school'' and  
bring forward new refinements. In fact sometinme it can be the only  
feasible thing, however some will insiste to call it HIP.


J
___



Simple shake (simplified):

.4   1   2 2 2 2 2 2  (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver)
---|-a--#e-e-|
-a-|-a-r-a-r-a-r'--a-|
---|-a---|
---|-a---|
---|-|
---|-|
. ///a

Shake preceded by appogiatura (simplified):

.4   2 1   2 2 2 2 2 2  (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver)
---|---a--#e-e-|
-a-|-r-a-r-a-r'--a-|
---|-a-|
---|-a-|
---|---|
---|---|
. ///a

Mathias






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[LUTE] Re: French trill

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Mathias,


On 2009-02-01, at 00:23, Mathias Rösel wrote:


Dear Jerzy,

checking the source would be great, but unfortunately I share your
plight, not owning a copy or facsimile of Vm7 6214. I have to rely on
the CNRS edition.

I wasn't familiar with the dating by Rave. The sisters Bocquet
flourished during the 1640ies, so there are some 30 years between this
copy and its possible authors. 30 years of change in style and
aesthetics...

I wasn't looking for the one and only appropiate execution of commas.


The one and only appropiate execution shouldn't exist in music, and  
best if we end up with different solutions! For the welfare of United  
Colours of B... aroque Music.



I'm suspicious that what I was actually looking for, was some support
for the execution of commas as simple trills.


Here is a salvation:
If the music was by or for the Bocquets, then Mersenne (1635/6)  
solves the problem. In an English translation (Martinus Nijhoff /The  
Hague 1957 /repr. 1964) on page 107 he says:


IV. On the ornamentation.
………
Now the one which is formed in this fashion: "," is called “shake”  
ordinarily, and most people use no other character to express all the  
different sorts [[JZ: sic!, meaning both upper and lower auxiliary,  
with two or more notes?]]; that is why I have not wished to change  
it, since it is familiar to everyone, so as not to use any novelty if  
it is not useful. But there are still other ornamentations which they  
call _accens plaintifs_, _martelemens_, _verves cassez_, and  
_battemens_, as we shall see at the end of this treatise. [[JZ: now -- 
>]] As for the first marked by this comma and used on the open  
string, it is necessary to consider two things for executing it well,  
that is, that the finger tip of the left hand, which ought to make  
this ornamentation, be well upon the string on which it is to be made  
and that the finger not be lifted from above the sad string, so that  
one perceives only that it has been played by the right hand. [...]
If this ornamentation is found at another letter than an "a" as is  
seen here, the first finger of the left hand must [...] be place  
above the fret "d", [...] and form the ornamentation of the little  
finger above the fret "f". [...]


For me it is a clear description of your "simple trill" starting from  
the main note. However I personally don't like the word "trill" which  
is for me a modern passkey for to great variety of historical  
ornaments. But I have no access to original Latin or French. I cut  
out all Mersennes painfull divagations whether to play one or two  
semiton second in the ornament.


But now, in the light of this, I'd have another problem -- what to do  
with the next note (only melodic), also with the come after it. Shall  
we play too a "simple trill" or appogiatura from above (which I never  
liked in such situations) or perhaps from below, if Mersenne allowes  
the coma "to express all the different sorts" of ornaments -- ?


But if the source is late (say 1680) and the ornamental signs are  
from Brossard rather (or understood his way) then I wouldn't be quite  
sure about the "simple trill" from the main note. Now maybe DGautier,  
Gallot or Mouton is a better prompter -- ?


And what if a piece be called "La Belle Homicide" and found in the  
Augsburg fantastic JBHagen Collection, what is actually the case with  
"the Beautifull Criminal" -- ?!


A Horror !!! We'd have to study Leopold Mozart.

Not as a rule, and by far not at all places. Just e. g. with the  
opening

chord of allemande #7. I was seeking liberation from the rule that
baroque trills, and French baroque trills in particular, are always to
be preceded by appogiature.


If I remember well, this splinter sits in the a.. from the beginning  
of modern research on historicall ornamentation. There are people who  
cannot imagine a baroque "trill" without an appogiatura from above or  
below. On the other side perhaps is Frederick Neumann (Ornamentation  
in baroque and post baroque music: With Special Emphasis on J. S.  
Bach, 1983) who's shown good number of very nice exceptions and in  
fact, for some, definitely broke the magic rule.



With that opening chord, an appogiatura on the root would obscure and
confuse the recognition of the key. And that's not what ornaments are
generally supposed to serve as.


As much as I like Neumann, I personally enjoy obscuring and  
confusing ;-) and in such a simplistic music as this, in a way, the  
flourishes and other "personalities" would for me be the last weapon  
to ...bring it to life. But this is only me.



some sort of ornamental dissonace at the very begining. At the first
chord of your Allemande (7) section B, there is also
'something' (inverted mordent?) which creates 'harmonic confusion'.
Similar coma at the first chord have also the Sarabande (18) and
'Autre facon' (19)... &ct.


With these two, I have less difficulties, as the comma affects the 5th
above the root. If execut

[LUTE] Re: French trill

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Mathias,

So lets to the point and your Allemande.

I don't pretend my method is right but if I'd have such a problem for  
the first time I'd first chack the source as I do not always trust  
the CNRS editions wich I just catched.The volume was published in  
1972, the 'Tableau des signes de doigtés et d'ornements' is probably  
exhaustive for the volume's content but as far as the 'comas' are  
concerned largely insuficient if not missleading.


From the same year is the indispensable W. Rave 'Some manuscripts of  
French lute music 1630-1700...", PhD at University of Illinois. Rave  
dates the manuscript Vm7 6214, from which the Allemande comes, as  
between 1672 and 1680, links its ownership and hand to Seb. de  
Brossard Collection. Besides of pieces of both Gautiers and few  
others, it is a unic source of 31 works by 'Boquet' which are found  
nowhere else. So the Allemande (CNRS no. 7) is unic and one cannot  
chack any other version by another scrib, alas.


The claster of works by 'Bocquet' is specially interesting for the  
inclusion of 18 'preludes marquants les cadances bq.' with the  
'Prelude sur tous les tons' as the most remarkable of these pieces. I  
smell a person of refined harmonic tast in Mr or Miss 'Bocquet' ...or  
perhaps Brossard as the scribe who notated someone's improvisations.


I don't have the MS -- which seams to be extremely interesting and  
I'd love to have a copy -- but the CNRS edition gives some overal  
impression. Most of the 'Bocquet' pieces, beside of Preludes, have  
some sort of ornamental dissonace at the very begining. At the first  
chord of your Allemande (7) section B, there is also  
'something' (inverted mordent?) which creates 'harmonic confusion'.  
Similar coma at the first chord have also the Sarabande (18) and  
'Autre facon' (19)... &ct.


If I play it, I would have absolutely no objection against the  
appogiatura. It's the most harsh in the collection but still  
idiomatic. And the source (the MS) is most probably trustworthy.


Now, the whole ornamentation problem in this style of LUTE music is  
quite complicated matter, as it is not only 'from above or below'  
but... u, wolud be a long, long letter. Besides, we have to  
remember, the music have to please, not cause a headache, even the  
'historical music'  ;-))


Jurek
_


On 2009-01-30, at 14:03, mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote:


   Dear Jerzy,

   it's amazing to me, indeed, how a baroque piece that starts with  
a 7th

   in the opening chord, comes to your mind just like that.


As you asked David, I'll refrain from answering that particular

   questio.

   I didn't mean to ask David Tayler exclusively because I prefer open
   discussions rather than dialogues, and, second, David is not the  
only

   expert on this subject.

   Mathias






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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

An answer to Mathias question is still to come -- I said that.

But the well-ordered French universe, as well as any other European  
baroque music universe is permanently beeing 'devastated' -- isn't  
it? -- by all the expected or unexpected appogiaturas creating 4ths,  
7ths or 9ths. It's their role: to surprise or astonish... Like in  
Rebel, perhaps.


J


On 2009-01-29, at 23:49, howard posner wrote:

Rebel's Cahos is not really to the point, since it is a depiction  
of primordial Chaos.  Mathias was questioning a dissonance that was  
presumably intended for the composer's well-ordered French universe.


On Jan 29, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Jerzy Zak wrote:

Some of you may know the famous French work by Jean-Féry Rebel,  
namely "Les elemens" and its first part, "Le Cahos". Here you can  
clik and listen to the first chord of it:

http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=640583
The French were really full of imagination as far as the harmony  
(sonority?) is concerned.






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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Mathias,
As you asked David, I'll refrain from answering that particular  
questio. But something not so far removed comes to my mind. Some of  
you may know the famous French work by Jean-Féry Rebel, namely "Les  
elemens" and its first part, "Le Cahos". Here you can clik and listen  
to the first chord of it:

http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=640583
The French were really full of imagination as far as the harmony  
(sonority?) is concerned.

Best,
Jurek



On 2009-01-29, at 22:38, Mathias Rösel wrote:


There is no argument concerning the duration of an appogiatura, I
suppose. One half with even value, at least two thirds with odd value.

My question, however, was if there should be an appogiatura at all.
There is that opening measure e. g. of Bocquet's allemande #7 (Vm7  
6214

fol. 5)

.2   31  1 1 1  1
---|-a---#e-e-|
-a-|-a'---r'---a--|
---|-a|
---|-a|
---|--|
---|--|
. ///a

If you execute the first comma as an appogiatura, you'll have a  
ninth on

the opening chord of that piece. Does that seem right to you?

Mathias

"David Tayler"  schrieb:

Shorter DT:
We are playing it backwards. The sources agree, the music agrees.
You can see the differences, including the
changed harmonies and changed position of the trill itself:

http://voicesofmusic.org/trill.html

Note that this is one example, there are a
thousand ways to play this trill, but they mainly have this long  
appogiatura.

I prefer the 2/3rds rule, but there are different
ways to do Long Short, as long as it isn't Short Long.
I look at this as a fantastic opportunity to be
on the cutting edge, and the music sounds
radically different when performed in this way.

Skip the rest. It's dull.

Long version:

I only mention the Monteclair because it is so
readily available, and explains the key points.
I think that for most of the basic things, that
is fine. It is translated into English, and so on.
Experts will always prefer the primary
sources--mainly the music itself. Most people
will not want to read twenty books when they can
look at one eight page document.

Basically, when applying French ornamentation you
are looking at the multiple sources for the
theory, and then the multiple sources for the practice.
For example, any ornamentation chart can be derived from the  
"doubles"

The process is simple, you identify the interval,
look in the double, paste it into the chart. The
composers have left thousands of clear examples.
If you don't want to use primary sources, you can
rely on premixed recipes, such as the article in the Grove,
In other words, the ornaments can be reverse
engineered. The sources are easily reconciled.

Brouderie is too big a topic to go into here. I
don't think of it as colloquial, however. It is
essential for playing lute music, and probably is
related to earlier English and French styles.

To say that the lute players differ from the
mainstream is an interesting idea, but I look at it differently.
Since most of the ornaments are written out in
the doubles, using primary sources, one can see what the ornaments  
really are.

We can then see if the music is different.
And then you can say, well, there few examples of
this kind of lute ornamnent in French music. The
lute players were trying to be different.
However, I don't see that. In fact, if you look
at ornamentation charts they tend to be
exhaustive--they cover almost all of the ways to get from note A  
to note B.

Even the unmeasured preludes cover most of the ornamnents.
But if you have looked at all the doubles, all
the cadences, all the brouderie and say the lute
ornaments are different, I would be very interested in the work.
And then, we would know for sure--it would not be
speculation. I've looked at thousands of these
pieces--I'm always struck by the similarities.

The real question revolves around the
appogiatura: is everyone playing it backwards? Is
it Sdrawkcab? And the answer is, yes. And here I
cited Monteclair because most sources agree that
the appogiatura is long--specifically 1/2 or 2/3 the note length.
And in the performance of lute solos, lute
players invariably perform these notes shorter
than that--much shorter. In fact, 1/3 or less
than the note length. And that is backwards, like
a Scotch snap. Or a French snap, since they had it is well.

I don't really care--I think people can play the
solos however they want. If you have read all the
primary sources, if you have looked at the
doubles, cadences & brouderie, and you say, you
know, I just prefer to play it backwards, fine.
Play it backwards.
But I don't really think that is the case. I
think this is simply a modern tradition and no
one wants to change it--it is harder on the lute
to play the appogiaturas longer, and you have to
study the voice leading as well. It is slightly more work.
Few people will do it; the best players will
solve the technical problems--they always will.

Here

[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear David and All,

Strange discussion or rather no dscussion...

It's good point about today preference for a short appogiatura among  
lutenists playing baroque music. Very often it sounds as if a  
luteplayer were playing those small notes in Giuliani or Carulli ;-))  
I don't know if it's reluctance to read historical sources or an  
inert attachment to still alieve a simplified (!) XIXth C. musical  
language.


But of course the ''baroque appogiatura'' is not only the long one --  
there are places for a shor one too, but applied properly to the  
context [... some are written out]


With appogiatura there is also a problem of an ''on beat'' or ''befor  
beat'' one. Monteclair and other French ''general'' writers mention  
both, and they have basically different harmonic implications, what  
is obvious. Both are vital for melody instruments and singing (plus  
perhaps harpsichord) but here lutenists are faced with a problem --  
as the ''before beat'' type is almost impossible or a very tricky  
one, beside of places of puraly monodic/melodic character.


But there is a whole range of other ornamentation devices, besides of  
appogiatura (which is however a basic ingredient of many) and most  
lutenists are theoreticaly well aware of them. For the earlier part  
of the period sufice to remember of Mersenne or Mace [...], for later  
obviously German sources with ''probably'' Felckenhagen in the  
centre, not entirely removed from the French practices, I think. The  
number of signs we see speaks for itself but it's probaby a tiny  
representation of what was ''in fassion'' (!) at certain place and  
times. Not only LONG or SHORT appogiatura for 150 or so years on the  
whole European Continent plus Brittain and Colonies &ct... And lets  
not forget about ornamenting with rythm (inequality) or dynamics  
(forte-piano, ...) or other articulation or agogical or formal  
devices (petit reprise, ...).


Of course ALL it's lost. For ever. Now we can only gess or propose  
learned or inspired solutions, providing we are not lazy and try to  
forget the famous ''one-note'' grace-notes ala Giuliani (as by some  
famous... ;-)).


David gave good starting point. Now lets concentrate on the ''French  
trill''.


J
_


On 2009-01-29, at 13:37, David Tayler wrote:


Dear Jean-Marie,
Thanks for you detailed response.

I would be happy to refute your points one by one, but my main
point--in fact my only point, really--
that everyone is playing the ornament backwards, is the one you  
don't discuss.







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[LUTE] Re: Bach & Telemann

[Jerzy Zak]

David,
Can you give the TWV numbers for Telemann, like there are BWV for Bach?
J
___


On 2009-01-24, at 09:33, David Tayler wrote:


My new CD is up on Magnatune--as always, free to listen!
dt
http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/voicesofmusic-bachtelemann/






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[LUTE] Re: schmeltzer chaconne

[Jerzy Zak]

Timo,

But in case you are looking rather for the J.G. Muffat's beautiful  
Passacaglia in A major, the only copy I know of is in A-KR L 83, p.  
(or f.) 89.


Best,
Jurek
-


On 2008-11-18, at 18:53, Peedu Timo wrote:

No, it isn't, but thanks for everybody for leading me to very  
beautiful pieces.


Best wishes,
Timo



Lähettäjä: dc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Lähetetty: ti 18.11.2008 15:30
Vastaanottaja: Lutelist
Aihe: [LUTE] Re: schmeltzer chaconne



Roman Turovsky écrit:

#4 has the Chaconne.
http://www.lysator.liu.se/~tuben/scores/schunfid/4unafid.pdf


None of these have the Ciaconna I believe Timo is after, if it's  
the one on

Hélène Schmitt's recording.

You can listen to an excerpt of it here:




or here




Dennis







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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-10-25, at 13:57, G. Crona wrote:


- Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


V.A. Coelho, "Authority, Autonomy, and Interpretation in Seventeenth-
Century Italian Music", in: _Performance on the Lute, Guitar and
Vihuela_, ed. by V.A. Coelho, Cambridge University Press 1997.
There you should find more on the entire subject.


Indeed you should! This interesting article seems to timely draw  
together

... Highly recommended reading, (as is the whole book).
G.


Realy, highly recommended book, in many respects. I only cannot  
understand why from a list of topics, ranging from the earliest lute  
manuscripts to the 19th C. classical guitar, the German lute,  
including Weiss, his predecessors and the 18th C. followers was  
entirely untouched. A very puzling question to me, but perhaps  
symptomatic of that selective tendency.


J
___





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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-10-24, at 23:14, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote:


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj),


I have never heard about this manuscript. Please, tell me more  
about it!


PL-Kj Mus. Ms. 40591
V.A. Coelho, "Authority, Autonomy, and Interpretation in Seventeenth- 
Century Italian Music", in: _Performance on the Lute, Guitar and  
Vihuela_, ed. by V.A. Coelho, Cambridge University Press 1997.

There you should find more on the entire subject.

the G.A. Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori  
and continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla  
Casa (some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto  
francese'), there is not much more for an archlute. So players  
nowadays are looking for a repertire, that's quite natural. But I  
guess historical archlute players were not that badly looking for  
"d-m lute music" in order to convert it to their tuning, but  
played whatever was arround, songs, dances, Corelli hits or their  
own inventions, all mostly - who knows - without the help of  
paper... yes, by heart... or "straight from its music notation",  
if I can cite from Weiss.


One of my students, following some historical sources and played  
one of the Corelli Sonatas on the d-m lute, with a noticable  
pleasure and, I'd say, success. Why this direction is not so  
willingly followed?


I have played a sarabande from violin sonata by Corelli in a  
version for d-m lute. Its in Stefan Lundgren's tutor. I would very  
much like to hear your student's version!


She played one of the entire Corelli Sonata (o course transposed) for  
an exam in the passed academic year, we don't have any recording of  
of it, obviously. Now she is in Trossingen for a year before coming  
back to Krakow for the final diploma year. She started her lute  
playing on the baroque lute and I think it's her main instrument,  
beside of the Italian type theorbo for practical reasons (that was  
her second one).


Jurek
___


Are




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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

No, Roman, please tell people what is _dupa_, otherwise we might be  
accused of talking awfully musicological lingo ;-)

J
___

On 2008-10-24, at 21:30, Roman Turovsky wrote:


How can I desribe the situation succintly?
There aree Mss, but they are owned by a major dziura w dupie who  
wouldn't let anyone see them, a bit like the Chilesotti debacle...

RT

- Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist Net" 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 3:20 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


Of course, Orlando Christoforetti in his preface to Dalla Casa   
_Sonate_ gives even more names. Presumably in this respect you  
could  cite half of the address books from all Italian cities and  
viliges.  It is as usefull for us as news from the moon, until  
you'll point out  to the hard copy of their music. More or less  
the same means Janovka  (1701) from Prague when he says that one  
could cover all the roofs in  the city with the great number of  
lutes there. He says nothing about  archlute in his _Clavis ad  
Thesaurum magne artis musicae_, as fare as  I know.

J
___
On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote:

And in the 18th century-
Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe   
Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli.

RT

- Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier"   
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "lute" 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da   
Reggio's "liuto attiorbato" ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto  
francese'),  there

is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008






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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

So I'd kiss their dupa and play Uccelini, Colista, Corelli or Handel  
- at least without a shame, and not transtabulate or steal casual  
bits from Weiss or Logy. I still believe lutenist is a musician -  
isn't he?, and not a prisoner of the tablature ghetto. It's a  
frustrating abridgement ...well, for me. We to often forget the  
tablature is only a _notation_, not the Music.

J
___

On 2008-10-24, at 21:30, Roman Turovsky wrote:


How can I desribe the situation succintly?
There aree Mss, but they are owned by a major dziura w dupie who  
wouldn't let anyone see them, a bit like the Chilesotti debacle...

RT

- Original Message ----- From: "Jerzy Zak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist Net" 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 3:20 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


Of course, Orlando Christoforetti in his preface to Dalla Casa   
_Sonate_ gives even more names. Presumably in this respect you  
could  cite half of the address books from all Italian cities and  
viliges.  It is as usefull for us as news from the moon, until  
you'll point out  to the hard copy of their music. More or less  
the same means Janovka  (1701) from Prague when he says that one  
could cover all the roofs in  the city with the great number of  
lutes there. He says nothing about  archlute in his _Clavis ad  
Thesaurum magne artis musicae_, as fare as  I know.

J
___
On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote:

And in the 18th century-
Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe   
Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli.

RT

- Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier"   
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "lute" 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da   
Reggio's "liuto attiorbato" ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto  
francese'),  there

is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008






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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, Orlando Christoforetti in his preface to Dalla Casa  
_Sonate_ gives even more names. Presumably in this respect you could  
cite half of the address books from all Italian cities and viliges.  
It is as usefull for us as news from the moon, until you'll point out  
to the hard copy of their music. More or less the same means Janovka  
(1701) from Prague when he says that one could cover all the roofs in  
the city with the great number of lutes there. He says nothing about  
archlute in his _Clavis ad Thesaurum magne artis musicae_, as fare as  
I know.


J
___

On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote:


And in the 18th century-
Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe  
Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli.

RT

- Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier"  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "lute" 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da  
Reggio's "liuto attiorbato" ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'),  
there

is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008




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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

That's something! A bit more detailes, Roman, please.
J
__

On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote:


And in the 18th century-
Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe  
Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli.

RT

- Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier"  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "lute" 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da  
Reggio's "liuto attiorbato" ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'),  
there

is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008







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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, Jean-Marie, my to obvious omission, but still, the period  
coinsiding with the 11/13-c lute repertoire is extremely unfavorable  
for the archlute as the solo instrument. Perhaps Italians were still  
playing it, but mostly in Italy - vide Arigoni dynasty (no single  
piece of music I know, how much I'd like to), and here and there in  
Central Europe occasionally too. But remind me a source of genuin  
archlute solo music from outside of Itay, please, I'd be gratefull.


French kings, like Louis XIII and Louis XIV were permanently in a  
state of wars, but their marchals secured by force or conquered  
nothing special, quite contrary to their poets, musicians, painters,  
designers, etc. Half of Europe begin speaking French and playing the  
French way, including the d-m lute, and as far as in Poland, the  
country for a long time culturally binded to everything Italian. In  
Danzig - that's far north near Königsberg - you could find any  
natinal elemnts - Italian, English, of course German and Polish, but  
since some 1630/40 the lute was French with all it's flavors. And  
Pierre Gaultier's print of 1638, one of the first with d-m pieces in  
it, was copied and known. I doubt Virginia Renata von Gehema had two  
instruments - one for her solo French, German and Polish music, and  
the other for Albert Arien and protestant hymns, happened to be also  
present in her book.


I think we greatly undervalue the importance of the d-m lute in the  
present lute world.

J
_


On 2008-10-24, at 19:48, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

 ...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da  
Reggio's "liuto attiorbato" ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there
is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008




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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

Obviously, it's good to know about the two or three Losy's pieces and  
a couple of Reusner's one transfered to theorbo. But I hope you are  
not going to say the d-m lute, after this discovery, is practically  
useless and everything can be reintabulated to an archlute now - ?


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.  
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and  
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa  
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there  
is not much more for an archlute. So players nowadays are looking for  
a repertire, that's quite natural. But I guess historical archlute  
players were not that badly looking for "d-m lute music" in order to  
convert it to their tuning, but played whatever was arround, songs,  
dances, Corelli hits or their own inventions, all mostly - who knows  
- without the help of paper... yes, by heart... or "straight from its  
music notation", if I can cite from Weiss.


One of my students, following some historical sources and played one  
of the Corelli Sonatas on the d-m lute, with a noticable pleasure  
and, I'd say, success. Why this direction is not so willingly followed?


J
_

On 2008-10-24, at 17:08, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote:


And here is the mail where our Mathias Rösel mentions a couple of
theorbo/archlute pieces by Reusner. Which pieces are you refering to,
Mathias?


Are

-- Forwarded message --
Date: 12 Oct 2005 07:07 GMT
From: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: baroque Lutelist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Reusner

"Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
I am curious although I have the 2 books of 1667 & 1676 by  
Reusner, are
there any internet files in Fronimo or pdf of Reusner?  Thanks in  
advance.


don't know about internet, but there are one or two pieces by Reusner
for the theorbo (or archlute) in Goess/Theorbo. Just to mention.

Best,

Mathias
--

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--

[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

But I havn't heared any complains when a trio of a singer, lute and
gamba are glorifying the Dowland's name. To be honest, to my ears the
lute is almost inaudible in such setting, and discussions about
poliphony of it's part or consecutive fifths is aimless. Very often
even without gamba.
In fact. However, tomorrow I have to do a pair of cuts from Silva  
Rerum with the melody given to the gamba. Hopefully I'll hear  
myself. I'll be amplified too.

RT


Do you mean the MS at the Krakow BJ 10002 (also numnered 127/56) of  
so many Ukrainian connection?

J
__





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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

Roman,

On 2008-10-24, at 14:50, Roman Turovsky wrote:

Jurek,
There is considerable difference of how music is heard by its  
participants

vs. how it is heard by listeners.


That's the paradox. We today removed this music from it's original  
milieu and put it on the modern concert platform, on which it most  
often creates consternation or at least sonic problems. Of course,  
the smaller the venue the better.


My perspicacity tells that all this ensemble music was clearly  
intended to be heard just by the participants, with or without very  
few guests. Moving this music into our typical venues renders the  
lute inaudible.


You mean, typical _modern_ venue, I understand. Salvation is in  
phonography perhaps, as the Radolt CD prompts.


One of course could bring in causa Lutz Kirchhoff's efforts, but  
his [athletic] approach to the lute in ensemble circumstances is  
not a pretty listen.


Lutz and several of us are permanently trying to find their own  
solution to the problem, which today is probably unsovable in 100%.


But I havn't heared any complains when a trio of a singer, lute and  
gamba are glorifying the Dowland's name. To be honest, to my ears the  
lute is almost inaudible in such setting, and discussions about  
poliphony of it's part or consecutive fifths is aimless. Very often  
even without gamba.


J
__


RT
- Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist Net" 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:47 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute


Matthias,

On 2008-10-24, at 12:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


> > I do like accompanying a singer though.
> > RT
>
> Here you are, though you don't like it: H Albert, G Voigtländer,
J.H.
> Schein, H. Schütz, Ch Bernhard, A. Krieger, J. Rist, T Selle, A
> Hammerschmidt, J Nauwach, C Ch Dedekind,  J Kremberg, Ph.H.
Erlebach,
> G.Ph. Telemann, J.V. Görner, J.A. Hasse, J.S. Scholze
> (Sperontes),. not to mention all the less known further east,
> survived or not.


Some of the best baroque lied composers, indeed, but I cannot see   
their

connection to the lute (except for Jakob Kremberg, of course,  whom I
shouldn't see among the first of that order, though).
Mathias


The connection is the simplest posiible - these are continuo songs,
most probably for home use, small audience, private entertainment,
like solo lute music of the period, from Reusner to Hagen. Do all the
people then had two instruments at home, and the other one for
continuo was obligatory an archlute or big theorbo??? Nonsense!

Jurek





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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

To my ears rather naive, harmonically poor, but still nice to play.  
Like a tipical Italian Aria, invites meldic or other lute idiomatic  
ornamentation. But it's a splendid occasion! Is there a brave one  
who'd make an 11-c d-minor lute edition? It can be plain, as is the  
original, or ornamented - in Italian way or French. Examples are in  
e.g. three Weiss settings of L'Amant malheureux (Harrah, Polinski and  
London). And that's really HIP.

Jurek
__

On 2008-10-24, at 15:10, G. Crona wrote:


You wrote:


I have tried Zamboni on 13c.
RT


What I find intriguing about Zamboni is how _very_ sparingly he  
uses the
diapasons. The 14th course is used only 3 or 4 times throughout all  
of the

11 sonatas.

The 12 and 13th are likewise rather scarce (made full use of in  
only a few movements), in fact much of the music is set on just 6  
courses and I would imagine that most of it would fit very well on  
an 11- or even 10 course instrument. (Perhaps even on an 8-course  
if stretching it a bit!)


I love this music! IMO one of the lute canon's best kept secrets.  
I'm making
my own playing edition just now (its quite free of mistakes as  
well) while

listening to the tasty -94 Contini CD.

G.






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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

Matthias,

On 2008-10-24, at 12:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


> > I do like accompanying a singer though.
> > RT
>
> Here you are, though you don't like it: H Albert, G Voigtländer,  
J.H.

> Schein, H. Schütz, Ch Bernhard, A. Krieger, J. Rist, T Selle, A
> Hammerschmidt, J Nauwach, C Ch Dedekind,  J Kremberg, Ph.H.  
Erlebach,

> G.Ph. Telemann, J.V. Görner, J.A. Hasse, J.S. Scholze
> (Sperontes),. not to mention all the less known further east,
> survived or not.


Some of the best baroque lied composers, indeed, but I cannot see  
their connection to the lute (except for Jakob Kremberg, of course,  
whom I shouldn't see among the first of that order, though).

Mathias


The connection is the simplest posiible - these are continuo songs,  
most probably for home use, small audience, private entertainment,  
like solo lute music of the period, from Reusner to Hagen. Do all the  
people then had two instruments at home, and the other one for  
continuo was obligatory an archlute or big theorbo??? Nonsense!


Jurek





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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

Mathias,
My post was only techincally glued to your reply, I know you are into  
the baroque lute.


On 2008-10-24, at 12:12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


One can buy Weiss or Logi on an archlute if it's for fun or pleasure.
Equally well one can try Pulenc on theorbo or Kapsperger on modern
harp, or Gershwin on balalaika


   That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Italian lutenists like
   Zamboni or dalla Casa were contemporaneous to Weiss and Logy,  
Weiss had

   been to Rome for quite a while and had started his carreer there. I
   simply wanted to know to what extend music by Logy or Weiss in
   tablatures for D minor tuning is specific to that tuning


But I've never heared of anybody trying, say, Gianoncelli (1650) on d- 
m lute, despite Julien Blovin, the famous French lute teacher activ  
in Italy, or Zamboni, however he lived almost contemporary to the so  
called Polinski's MS with an inscribtion "Venetijs. 7. 7br. 1712".  
Quite feasible, isn't it? - but I've never heared of this kind of  
experiments (perhaps of myself ;-))



But why the real baroque lute is such a black sheep


   Would you agree with me, then, that there are at least four  
distinct

   black sheep?
 * 11c French
 * 12c double headed (much of the repertoire French, again)
 * 13c bass rider
 * 13c swan neck


Not realy much distinct, concidering the tuning.


Why the few maniacs only use baroque lute tuning for a
continuo, in the age the instrument was born and used?


   Not sure if I got your point right, but didn't Benjamin Narvey  
recently
   make a strong case in favour of HIP continuo playing in D minor  
tuning.
   Besides that, there still are the Fundamenta der Lautenmusique,  
an 18th

   century=A0tutor for continuo playing in D minor tuning.


Benjamin Nervey is one of the few noble individuals of whom I was  
thinking. And the Fundamenta, plus Perrine print, the Wienna MS and  
others makes me thinking that in fact there is more real pedagogical  
material - that is hard proof from the period - for continuo practice  
on the d-m tuning, then on other lutes -)) Paradox?


Jurek


   Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-10-24, at 03:49, Roman Turovsky wrote:


From: "Jerzy Zak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
doesn't happen to often, I'm afraid). But why the real baroque  
lute  is such a black sheep, why such a distaste, reluctance or  
even  aversion? Why the few maniacs only use baroque lute tuning  
for a  continuo, in the age the instrument was born and used?
I am for one emphatically against such usage, even though I  
occasionally do that against my principles, in front of people.
If a baroque lute is audible in an instrumental ensemble- it is  
likely because it either played a sour note or was late on the  
entry.


Who then played the Reusner music (MS additions to his printed  
music), Radolt (compare recent CD), Kühnel, Lauffensteiner,  
Falckenhagen, Hagen, Baron, Meusel, Martino, Weiss, Kropfgans,  
Sollnitz, Schaffrath, Kohaut, Haydn, Seckendorf, Daube, Rust... For  
whom were the present Augsburg and Bruxelles collections. Who took  
pain to assemble the Schweidnitz MS "I Trastulli D’Apollo in suavi  
Concerti" and several others... And do not forget about the 'Bach  
1025' case.



I do like accompanying a singer though.
RT


Here you are, though you don't like it: H Albert, G Voigtländer, J.H.  
Schein, H. Schütz, Ch Bernhard, A. Krieger, J. Rist, T Selle, A  
Hammerschmidt, J Nauwach, C Ch Dedekind,  J Kremberg, Ph.H. Erlebach,  
G.Ph. Telemann, J.V. Görner, J.A. Hasse, J.S. Scholze  
(Sperontes),. not to mention all the less known further east,  
survived or not.


Here I see most plainly how the history is selectively used, not   
excluding HIP. Quite intriguing, isn't it?

Jurek


Jurek
_




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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

Weiss and Logy on archlute! Well, of course, everything is  
explanable, I can understand any individual approach. In the end  
music as an art or entertainment is 'free'. Also history is a very  
plastic phenomenon, what endless discussions at least on this list  
only testify. But why there is such a bias against a baroque lute?


We have more or less 150 years of written heritage of music for the  
renaissance tuning and another 150 years of survived music for the  
baroque (d-minor) tuning, with some 50 years of overlap in that  
aspect. Someone has stated that Silvius Leopold Weiss, with his over  
1000 recognized single compositions, is the richest represented  
composer of all lute music. I'm saying nothing about quality and am  
not comparing Dalza with Falckenhagen becouse it's pointless - I'm  
astonished about present or modern statistics. Who started, for  
exemple, his marriage with lute with Weiss and not with Francesco? I  
know, not many, so why such a trend in pedagogy?


One can buy Weiss or Logi on an archlute if it's for fun or pleasure.  
Equally well one can try Pulenc on theorbo or Kapsperger on modern  
harp, or Gershwin on balalaika - if the artistic/musical efect is  
really moving - including single strings on some hybrid lutes  
called ...anyhow. I have absolutely nothing against it, even long for  
any real artistic show with a plucker on stage (what unfortunately  
doesn't happen to often, I'm afraid). But why the real baroque lute  
is such a black sheep, why such a distaste, reluctance or even  
aversion? Why the few maniacs only use baroque lute tuning for a  
continuo, in the age the instrument was born and used?


Here I see most plainly how the history is selectively used, not  
excluding HIP. Quite intriguing, isn't it?

Jurek

PS: but really nothing against archlute ;-)) or any other type of  
lute... just curiosity.

_

On 2008-10-23, at 20:43, Mathias Rösel wrote:


"Are Vidar Boye Hansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:

convenient... This way all - really nearly the  ALL! -  the baroque
solo-continuo stuff is playable by an archlute!


Yepp, that's true. I tried Logy and Weiss grand staff transcriptions
with the archlute and found them quite feasable.


I think I read somewhere that there actually is a courante by Logy  
in an

18th century archlute version.

In the much debated letter where Weiss describes his continuo  
lute, he
also claims that neither archlute nor theorbo is any good for  
galanterie

pieces. Of course, he was wrong... :-)


Well, yes, of course >;) A bitmore serious, I'd quote in full that the
giraffes, which differ from each other, sound coarse and rude, when  
you

come close, because they were played with nails.
I do not play Weiss wi-with na-na-nails, uff c-course.

Mathias






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[LUTE] Re: Dowland know-how

[Jerzy Zak]

Diana Poulton, at whose house in London I leved for almost two years,  
instructed me Dowland should be prnunced like Poland. How she's got  
that knowledge I don't know.

Jurek
___

On 2008-10-02, at 14:53, dc wrote:

I suppose this question has already been asked umpteen times, but  
here goes
again: do we know how the ow in Dowland's name was pronounced? As  
in know

or as in how?

Thanks,

Dennis







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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weyrauch

[Jerzy Zak]

But he is a regular guitarist, with all its goods and bads… Probably  
thinks we are silly fools ;-))

But the video is OK, if you like anything played efficiently.
J
___

On 2008-09-29, at 14:35, Stephan Olbertz wrote:


Does anyone know what this exactly is?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=u0dHmUORzEk

I didn't know that we have a composition by Johann Christian  
Weyrauch. Meyer doesn't list

anything. Hm...

Regards,

Stephan






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[LUTE] Roman's email

[Jerzy Zak]

Roman,
Aren't there some problems with your email account?
jz




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[LUTE] Krakow SAM 2008

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Liste,

Although late, I’d like to let you know of the next –

10-th Summer Music Academy Krakow (Poland) 2008
http://www.amuz.krakow.pl/en/?web=linki

Below there are esential info from the Academy’s web page concerning  
the cources. To that I might add, that the Jagiellonian Library in  
Krakow egreed to organize a special visite of interested participants  
to their collection of old music prints and manuscripts, commonly  
known as the ‘Berlin Collection’. Some of you know the contents of  
it - let me just mention the famous Spinacino 1507 print as the  
earlist, and the Rust MS from ca. 1760’s, as probably the latest.


Here follow extracted fragments, but you are invited to see the  
original web page given above.

Jurek (Jerzy Zak)



Ladies and Gentlemen,
Summer Music Academy will celebrate its first jubilee. It is with  
pleasure that we can state that during ten years of its existence it  
became one of the most significant summer cultural events, and the  
participants arriving from all over the world confirm its  
international renown. The 10th Summer Music Academy coincides with  
the 120th anniversary of the Academy of Music in Kraków, Poland. We  
would like to emphasize the unique character of this edition not only  
by the presence of great masters and their performances, but we want  
to present our participants during “The Youth: Now” concert  
series. We wait for you in Kraków, a city which provides the most  
beautiful framework for all artistic meetings.

Prof. Andrzej Pikul - Artistic Director

THE SCHEDULE OF COURSES
(extracted only ‘early music’, in calendar order):
…
Jerzy ZAK - Lute, August 21 - 24
Teresa KAMINSKA - Baroque cello, August 27 - 30
Malgorzata WOJCIECHOWSKA - Flute traverso, August 27 - 30
Marcin ZALEWSKI - Viola da gamba, August 27 - 30
Elzbieta STEFANSKA – Harpsichord, August 28 - 30
…

INFORMATIONS (extracted):
– The 10-th SAM Kraków 2008 will take place between August 20-30,  
2008 at the Academy of Music in Kraków, Poland.
– Each course will last 4 days minimum. The actual duration of the  
course shall depend on the number of enrolled students. The  
participants shall be notified by 10 July 2008.
– The concerts of the best performers among the participants of the  
courses will be held in the "Florianka" Recital Hall.


APPLICATIONS, RESERVATIONS AND FEES
– by 15 June 2008, via letter, fax or e-mail – a legibly filled  
Application Form, enclosing a confirmation of payment of the  
Registration Fee for foreign persons – 30,00 EUR…

– Course fees for foreign applicants: 300 EUR
…

OFFICE:
Joanna Czech
tel. + 48 12 422 44 00
tel. + 48 12 422 04 55 ext. 144
fax. + 48 12 422 44 55
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Academy of Music in Krakow
43, Sw. Tomasza Street
31-027 Krakow
Poland

CALENDAR/CONCERTS (extracted):

20 August, 7 p.m.
Ceremonial opening…
…
22 August, 7 p.m.
Lute recital: Jerzy Zak
…
24, 25 August, 7 p.m.
Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now”
…
27 August, midday (12 p.m.)
Lecture on baroque dances, with live performance. Conducted by Prof.  
Elżbieta Stefańska, Romana Maciuk-Agnel and Dariusz Brojek (dances)

27 August, 3 p.m.

Chamber Hall, 43, Sw. Tomasza St.
Baroque dances course for all the interested participants of the SAM

27 August, 7 p.m.
Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now”
…
29, 30 August, 7 p.m.
Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now”

30 August, 7 p.m.
Ceremonial closing…





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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising no evidence

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Diego,


On 2008-02-05, at 21:51, Diego Cantalupi wrote:

Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as   
breathing.

Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it.


Not so easy... it's very difficult, if not impossible, to find any  
music for

theorbo
in mensural notation written in the same times.


Perhaps not theorbo and not in Italy, but from France we have Perrine  
and especially d'Anglebert imaginatively transcribing lute music,  
without any prejudice, despite octaves on the lute, etc.



I'm sure there's a reason for this. Also I've never seen a printed
page testifying it on any lute and theorbo music book.


In a way the Cazzati print I mentioned yesterday can be a trace.  
Beside, again on a French soil, a book by Gallot says you can play it  
on other instruments, and of course de Visée, Dieupart (1667-1740),  
who else...? The tablature was an awful barrier, therefor my theory  
many Italian lutenists (including tiorbists) said addio! to that type  
of notation.



Of course, if you play a violin part with a cornetto or viceversa,
there are no problems! But playing a theorbo part (with all the  
problems

coming
from unisons, in particoular in Castaldi music) it's far from being  
natural.
Of course it works.  It works a little better on double harp, since  
it can

plays unisons...


That reminds me my examples to studens showing an honest and complete  
transcription (including dublings) of some 'matured' baroque guitar  
piece, say by Corbetta or Murcia, and how imposible it is, or on the  
other hand how groundless it is in order to understand the basically  
simple texture.



You can hear my experiment here (with some birds), selecting track 3.
You can transcribe it for two organs, also
hammond organs, it will work, but it won't be natural.
Also Kenneth Gilbert's edition of HK is very unnatural: of course very
easy to do, but since I'm quite sure he knows some counterpoint,
it would have benn better a sort of voices reconstructions...


I haven't seen it, but of course he shoud impersonate himself with  
someone like Frescobaldi or Rossi. But that's a persistent editorial  
problem - what to give to paper, and what to forgive to fingers.


Jurek
___



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino, by Castaldi

[Jerzy Zak]

Tremendous thanks for this, Diego. Transcibing such in an old and  
foreign language text from an original would be a nightmare for me.

Jurek
_


On 2008-02-05, at 21:56, Diego Cantalupi wrote:


That's the (difficult) text.
I'll try to upload he page later


ALLA NOBILE, SPLENDIDA E VIRTUOSA GIOVENTU' GENOVESE


Il Liuto Re degli stromenti bontà del suo essere, conforme a la  
natura de vecchi, è ritroso e dificile, stracco di soffrire lo  
strapazzo barbieresco che ne fa la turba errante, Havendo dal  
Arciduchessa Tiorba, che l'altro giorno per non mancar d'herede  
egli prese per moglie havuto un figliuoletto vago, e piacevole, che  
più al Altezza de la Madre che a la Maiestà del genitore  
rassomigliandosi, Tiorbino fù chiamato, visto l'aplauso universale  
che in omni genere musicorum si dava a la Donna & al putto, come  
lieto di una tal successione, così mezzo disperato per non trovar  
più fra quei che si lambiccano in suo servitio, chi modernamente lo  
contenti, del suo caro Piccinino, et altri pochi in poi, s'è  
risoluto d'inviarsi a la volta degli Antipodi, onde hà fatto prima  
solenne rinuntia, de la Liutesca corona reale che tiene, e d'ogni  
sua pretensione a la Regina moglie, & al figliuolo, accortosi che  
l'una, e l'altro, quando stiano accoppiati insieme, fanno ottimo  
concerto, e perfettamente, e con poco fatica danno quella  
sodisfattione a tutto il mondo, che a sua Maestà non è mai bastato  
l'animo di fare se non in processo di lunghissimo tempo.
Hora che ciò ch'io dico sia vero eccone a le SS. VV. virtuosissime  
un po' d'abbozzo in questa miei capricci li quali piu intel  
ligibile ch'io habbia potuto, per non haver io giamai più fatto tal  
mestiero, sono stati intagliati in rame da me così a la grossa per  
diversion di quella dolorosa noia, che continoamente mi dà  
l'inossata palla, che nel mezzo del piè sinistro mi lasciò per  
favorirmi tornato da Roma in patria, ott'anni sono una leggiadra e  
gentii Pistoletta galante, questa mostra dico di fantasticarie  
tiorbesche dedico, dono, e consacro a le SS. VV. come a persone  
nobili, Splendide, e che più d'ogn'altra natione di virtù si  
dilettano; Suplicandole ad accettar voluntieri, e gradire questo  
mio picciol dono, qual egli si sia, per segno del obligo grande, &  
immortale ch'io tengo a le carezze fattemi in coteste parti  
mentr'io ci dimorai da le generosità loro, et insieme il buono  
animo mio, che sarà prontissimo quand'io m'accorga che queste non  
gli dispiacciano, di porgere a la giornata con altre gentilezze  
simili a le nobilità de le SS. VV. virtuosissimo trattenimento.  
Così N.S. Iddio le concede il colmo d'ogni felicità, come io lo  
desidero con ogni maggior affetto.


Di Modena XV Lulio 1622 De Le Nobili Splendide, e
Virtuosissime SS. VV. Umilissimo & Devotissiomo
Servitore,

Bellerofonte Castaldi






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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

I couldn't quickly find a fitting example of a XVIth c. pair pavan- 
galliard, but I have at hand Terzi's 1st book of tab. and their on p.  
115-117: Ballo Tedesco… / Il Saltarello del prescrito ballo. They are  
closly related thematically and it immadiately appeares that one bar/ 
measure of the ballo equals to two bars/measure of the saltarello in  
performance - that is providing a ballo is a piece of music in a  
moderate speed and a saltarello is brisk. In that way all the  
structural elements, the melody and 'harmony' runs in the saltarello  
twice as fast as in ballo, the fraze is twice shoter, etc. But if  
you'd write both dances on paper in a score way, one under the other,  
you could see that in musical contents one printed bar equals one  
printed bar. That may give a faulty impression that it might be  
performed bar to bar in terms of time and speed.


Funny experiment. But still I think that for a sheer instrumental  
performance that strict proportion might be compromised accordingly.

Jurek



On 2008-02-05, at 21:12, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

There is no such obvious equivalence really, but keep in mind the  
equivalence of one breve with two beats (Pavan) and one breve with  
three beats (Galliard). The augmentation of the number of notes to  
a beat -  three for two - gives the feeling of an acceleration  
sufficient to differentiate the two dances. At least that's how I  
usually find my way around in this particular matter and it works  
fine, even with dancers...


Hope it helps !

All the best,

Jean-Marie

=== 05-02-2008 21:: ===

The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The
problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in
what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat.


After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I
should have written:
1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat)

and in an original mensural notation would be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of
a pavan (one beat or half of the measure)

Is it correct?
Jurek
__


1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might
be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).


On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


Exactly Jerzy.

I think that's what theoreticians call "tactus inequalis" : 1
tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern
transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one
measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time
with a regular tactus in duple  time - hand touching down for each
breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not
considering the modern concept of "bar", as there were no bars then
as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time
measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a
clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to
triple and back, if necessary.  Usually a breve, with two demi-
breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi-
breves to it.
Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all
the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion.  So, take care, you have to
consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a
correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]...

Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 05-02-2008 17:27:26 ===



On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote:


http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html


Thank you, Arthur,
Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might
be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).

Forgive improper terminology, if that's important.
In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions
loose sense of course.

However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance  
theory.

Jurek
__






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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

Jarek,

On 2008-02-05, at 20:33, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Jurek,
It got complicated a little bit, but in fact is very simple. If you  
start

taping your foot (I don't advice taping foot at all, but one can do it
virtually) when playing Pavan, don't stop it when the Galliard  
comes, and

everything will be fine :)


The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The  
problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in  
what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat.


I played with the dancers several times and generally they don't  
like fast
tempos of the Galliard for the simple reason they have many  
complicated

steps (the steps shown on American video are very basic).
I absolutely agree with Steward that Galliard was slowing down with  
time

passing because of more and more complicated steps.


The same with pavan, the same with almain/allemande, with sarabande,  
etc.



If we presume that in
XVI c. Italy it was a lively dance,


as well as the pavan not so slow, too.


probably in the end of Dowland's life it
was not. No wonder that when Mace was writing about Galliard,  
everybody was

so bored already with Galliards and inventing new attractive steps in
general. So probably this is why he describes it as a slow, grave  
and sober

dance.


In his time both the pavan and the galliard were for old fogies. In  
my feeling the Dowland pavans and galliard situates somwhere between  
the tipical XVIth c. Italian lively prototypes and Mace, but were  
already in a stage of decadence. But first of all Dowland is not for  
dancing - try to convince someone to dance to his Lacrime Pavan. Of  
course under the academic roof you can do it, but would you like to  
take part in that experiment?




Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:31 PM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time

Thank you Jean-Marie,

After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I
should have written:
1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat)

and in an original mensural notation would be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of
a pavan (one beat or half of the measure)

Is it correct?
Jurek
__


1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might  
be:

3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).


On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


Exactly Jerzy.

I think that's what theoreticians call "tactus inequalis" : 1
tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern
transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one
measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time
with a regular tactus in duple  time - hand touching down for each
breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not
considering the modern concept of "bar", as there were no bars then
as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time
measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a
clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to
triple and back, if necessary.  Usually a breve, with two demi-
breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi-
breves to it.
Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all
the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion.  So, take care, you have to
consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a
correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]...

Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 05-02-2008 17:27:26 ===



On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote:


http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html


Thank you, Arthur,
Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might  
be:

3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).

Forgive improper terminology, if that's important.
In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions
loose sense of course.

However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory.
Jurek
__







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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-02-05, at 14:21, tiorba wrote:

In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same  
programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on   
harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical  
practice. Very interesting, thanks, Rob.

Jurek


It's indeed very far!
Like playing a vocal aria with the "vox humana" of an organ, or  
thinking about sun and sea playing with "unda maris"...
It's really clear what is a tiorbino for Castaldi. Not only from  
the picture, but also from the introduction, unfortunately lacking  
in the Minkoff reprint...


Diego


Diego,
Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as  
breathing. Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it. Of  
course I would do better using some other instrument strung in gut,  
say another lute, harp or ...a keyboard instrument called tiorbino,  
providing I'd know of it. But my buddy played ordinary (oh, how  
ordinary) italian cembalo, so what? But I'll tell you more, there is  
a biger scandal approaching or already appeared - Kenneth Gilbert's  
keyboard edition of the lute and theorbo music of Kapsperger... I can  
imagine a battle on this liste like the one with Sting. ¡Ay, caramba!


Jurek
PS: but the introduction to Castaldi I'd love to know, of course!
_




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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

Thank you Jean-Marie,

After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I  
should have written:

1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat)

and in an original mensural notation would be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of  
a pavan (one beat or half of the measure)


Is it correct?
Jurek
__


1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).


On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


Exactly Jerzy.

I think that's what theoreticians call "tactus inequalis" : 1  
tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern  
transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one  
measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time  
with a regular tactus in duple  time - hand touching down for each  
breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not  
considering the modern concept of "bar", as there were no bars then  
as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time  
measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a  
clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to  
triple and back, if necessary.  Usually a breve, with two demi- 
breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- 
breves to it.
Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all  
the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion.  So, take care, you have to  
consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a  
correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]...


Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 05-02-2008 17:27:26 ===



On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote:


http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html


Thank you, Arthur,
Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).

Forgive improper terminology, if that's important.
In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions
loose sense of course.

However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory.
Jurek
__





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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-02-05, at 17:33, LGS-Europe wrote:


Recorder and viol players are often shocked at the slowness of  
speeds requested by lutenists for broken consort music (Morley 1599  
et al), and a compromise has to be reached.

<<


One of the top lute players once confessed to me why he is no longer  
playing with his broken ensemble (we were talkng about the English  
repertoire), becouse the other parts, beside of the lute, are so  
boring, mostly in very long notes, that nobody really wants to play  
it with him.
It is undertandable then, every flute or viola player tends to play  
all the whole and half notes faster. Of course hard to finde a  
compromise. Easy-dificult music and only one has fun.


Jurek
__



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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote:


http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html


Thank you, Arthur,
Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan  
(1/4 of a measure).


Forgive improper terminology, if that's important.
In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions  
loose sense of course.


However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory.
Jurek
__




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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence

[Jerzy Zak]

In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same  
programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on  
harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical practice.  
Very interesting, thanks, Rob.

Jurek
___

On 2008-02-05, at 10:55, Rob Lute wrote:

I had a very pleasant evening on Saturday with my harpsichord- 
making friend,
Grant O'Brien, and his friends, including a short recital on one of  
his

harpsichords by Lucy Carolan, a first-rate player. Grant and I got to
talking about lute and harpsichord making in Italy, and he revealed  
a couple

of interesting points:

1. all Italian harpsichords had fir soundboards, not spruce, as  
found north
of the Alps. Did I know of any fir-soundboarded lutes? Well, I  
didn't. Can

anyone contribute something here?

2. the tiorbino: here is a fascinating article from Grant's website,
discussing a keyboard instrument called the tiorbino, apparently  
gut-strung,

like the lautenclavier:
http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/ 
The_tiorbino.htm -
I love the part where a buyer asks the maker to build another one  
if the

first one goes out of tune! A great idea, albeit somewhat expensive...

Although these are keyboard topics, I'm sure they will be of  
interest to

some here.

Rob MacKillop





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[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?

[Jerzy Zak]

 is, of  
course, subjective) is that there is a clear sense of the melodic  
and of the bass line and I find that with the firmer thumb stroke  
on the bass line and/or allied with the continuo Pittoni calls for  
(organo or clavicembalo) there is no real sense of any strange  
harmonic inversion.


The bar on page 43 also illustrates another problem: if one accepts  
an octave on the 2nd, where does it all end? - since here the  
scalic passage, both ascending and descending, crosses all three  
top courses: there has to be a discontinuity somewhere; wether it  
be between the 2nd and 3rd or 1st and 2nd. Note also that at the  
beginning of this bar he completes the previous ascending phrase on  
the same course (3rd at fret 7) and then plays the same note on  
course 2 (fret1) to start the next short phrase. This, I suggest,  
shows he made a concious choice to start the next phrase at the  
lower octave - in short double reentrant.


Personally, I rather like the octave leap at the end of the  
bar


MH




Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Martyn,

All this is very persuasive, but what about the story of a double re-
entrant instrument with double strings and the second course in
octaves, in G or A?

From my sketchy calculations it appeares it must be an instrument of
about 74 cm (stopped), considering on one side the breaking point of
the high octave of the second (the _e'_) and the musical quality of
the 6th (or 7th) course. As a theorbo it's a toy instrument, useless
(?), but in therms of say a baroque d-m lute, with which it shares
the tessitura, it is a huge one. In this case such a theorbo would
have the 5th and the 6th (+ the 7th?) in octaves as well.

Someone said that already.

Gratefull for comments,
Jurek
__





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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G/A? Plus some guidelines

[Jerzy Zak]

Martyn,

All this is very persuasive, but what about the story of a double re- 
entrant instrument with double strings and the second course in  
octaves, in G or A?


From my sketchy calculations it appeares it must be an instrument of  
about 74 cm (stopped), considering on one side the breaking point of  
the high octave of the second (the _e'_) and the musical quality of  
the 6th (or 7th) course. As a theorbo it's a toy instrument, useless  
(?), but in therms of say a baroque d-m lute, with which it shares  
the tessitura, it is a huge one. In this case such a theorbo would  
have the 5th and the 6th (+ the 7th?) in octaves as well.


Someone said that already.

Gratefull for comments,
Jurek
__

On 2008-02-03, at 10:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote:



  Thanks for this; I'd be grateful for a fuller response to cover  
all the points in my previous email to you. Nevertheless I'll  
respond to this one below:


  INFORMATION

  I now see from your mention of my guitar stringing email that you  
seem to equate 'information' solely with figures whereas I also  
include other things such as tunings, examples of solo music, etc  
which you do not count as information - we'll bear this in mind.


  BOB SPENCER'S & LYNDA SAYCE'S PAPERS

  In fact, Bob Spencer gave examples of large double reentrant  
theorbos in A and G (with string lengths around 89 and 91cm - the  
same ones I gave details earlier). He also cites Mace on tuning of  
single and double theorbos in G and A and says that large theorbos  
need the two highest courses down the octave and not just the first  
(ie smaller theorbos just had the first course on actave down p. 412).


  Similarly, Lynda Sayce does in fact provide much information  
including sizes of some large extant theorbos.


  TALBOT MS

  Talbot fortunately gives more than the minimum number of  
dimensions and it is quite possible to recreate the instrument  
based on what he gives at a string length of between 88/91cm (as  
Michael Prynne and later others) without making unecessary  
assumptions as David did (I'm told it's mostly to do with  
measurements of body to body/neck joint or to the end of the tongue  
and not by excluding the rose diameter).


  David doesn't mention reentrant tuning type (Talbot gives double  
reentrant in A for his measured instrument) and I would surprised  
if Lynda Sayce doesn't tune her 78cm English theorbo as single  
reentrant  - but you'll need to ask her.  Incidentally, 78cm seems  
an ideal size for a single reentrant theorbo - mine is 76cm which I  
now feel is marginally too small.


  EVIDENCE

  In short, the evidence I gave still stands and, little as it is,  
is indeed overwhelming (100%). I still await David Tayler's or your  
own evidence that small theorboes (say 75 to 82cm) were generally  
tuned as double reentrant.


  PITCH

  I don't quite understand your last point on pitch but if you are  
equating maximum acceptable breaking stress of solo and continuo  
instruments, I refer you to my recent email to Rob McKillop ... it  
contains figures too.



  WHEN SINGLE OR DOUBLE REENTRANT?

  Whilst no one denies that it is physically possible to string a  
small theorbo in A or G as double reentrant (especially using  
modern overwound strings), the question I, at least, am trying to  
address is what would have been expected historically. Early  
sources, when bothering to mention the matter at all (eg Piccini,  
Mace - cited earlier), stress that  smaller instruments are single  
reentrant and that double reentrant is only employed when the  
breaking stress of the highest pitched string (in this case the  
second course) is approached. I can, of course, well understand  
that if you play a small theorbo in an unlikely historical  
stringing (ie A or G double reentrant) you'll feel an almost  
Pavlovian obligation to defend your decision but surely you should  
be doing this on this basis of modern convenience and personal  
preference and not on the unsupportable position that it's somehow  
following historic models.


  MH

















howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Martyn Hodgson wrote:


In subsequent messages I gave more information (you must have
missed it): - how such small instruments were strung (just top
course an octave down or at a much higher nominal pitch eg D), -
early written evidence of theorbo sizes, - examples of solo music
for such instruments -


Again, there was no information; just your own conclusion that
smaller theorbos were not tuned double reentrant. You may be
confusing these posts (I've just reread them) with your post about
guitar stringing, which actually contained information.


and gave Lynda Sayce's website and Bob Spencer's article as
providing more information. You may say that I only refer to these
articles because they support the position on theorbo sizes which I
take - which it is true they do -


But they don't. Spencer doesn't correlate single-reentrant stringing

[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Stewart and Jaroslaw,

In a way you are both right advocating legitimate interpretations,  
theoretically opposite. But they overlap and that common region is in  
much degree subjective, depending on context, historicall or personal  
styles, even some national propensities (compare the Italian and  
French battles over the style of composition or performance in the  
XVIIth C.).


The problem is that the discussion started from a very bad exemple  
which nither represent a dance form (in case of the web site 'as if  
Polish') but a free composition, nor any particular style of playing.  
Actually, I'd have to get massively drunken in order to play for over  
ten years the same notorious Finale 'by Dlugoraj' and not much else.  
The player seems much more imaginative in self promoting (as the  
entire contents of the page testifies!) then musical interpretation.


Then, I think, P O'Dette and H Smith, or R Lislevand, or even J  
Bream, are safer for polemics however contrasting are their  
interpretations. The discussion can be exciting, even limited to  
verbal descriptions (for the lack of sound, the soul of music) and  
can tell perhaps more of ourselves and our preferences, then the  
subject itself, so elusive.


So forgive I shortened the Subject and cut off the useless association.
Jurek
__

On 2008-02-03, at 17:03, Stewart McCoy wrote:


Dear Jaroslav,

Thank you very much for these observations, which you have  
presumably taken
from Robert Donington, _The Interpretation of Early Music_ (London:  
Faber &

Faber, new version reprinted 1975), p. 425.

The first passage you quote, which Donington took from Thomas Mace,  
p. 147,

is incomplete. The full text given by Donington is:

"Many Drudge, and take much Pains to Play their Lessons very  
Perfectly, (as

they call It (that is, Fast) which when they can do, you will perceive
Little Life, or Spirit in Them, meerly for want of the Knowledge of  
This
last Thing, I now mention, viz. They do not labour to find out the  
Humour,

Life, or Spirit of their Lessons."

Here Mace is arguing for music to be played expressively, to  
capture the
mood of a composition. He says that many players think you just  
have to get
the notes right and play the piece up to speed, the faster the  
better. This
does not really counter what I have been saying about lutenists  
playing out
of time. You would have done better to look seven pages further on  
(p. 432),

where you will find another passage taken from Mace (p. 81):

"[Beginners must learn strict time; but] when we come to be  
Masters, so that

we can command all manner of Time, at our own Pleasures; we Then take
Liberty, (and very often, for Humour [i.e. "mood", not "wit"], and  
good
Adornment-sake, in certain Places), to Break Time; sometimes  
Faster, and

sometimes Slower, as we perceive, the Nature of the Thing Requires."

In my earlier e-mail, I quoted the passage on p. 124 of _Musick's  
Monument_:


" ... you cannot fail to know my Mistress's Humour, provided you  
keep True
Time, which you must be extreamly careful to do, in All Lessons:  
For Time is

the One half of Musick."

At first sight, Mace seems to be contradicting himself with these  
three
passages, yet I believe he is spot on. I think he means that he  
wants music
to be played in time, not with sloppy rubato all over the place for  
its own
sake, but neither does he want it to be played mechanically with no  
regard
for the mood of the piece. To capture the essential character of a  
piece of
music requires some freedom of interpretation, but done subtly, and  
in such
a way that the music appears to keep good time. I would suggest  
that Paul
O'Dette does precisely that. He can play a piece of dance music so  
that
one's foot taps in sympathy, but he doesn't play mechanically.  
There may be
a little give and take to capture the spirit of a piece, perhaps a  
breath
between sections, without him resorting to the sort of arrhythmic  
playing I

so dislike.

-o-O-o-

As with Mace, you would have done better to choose a quotation  
seven pages

on for Frescobaldi, where Donington gives the following (p. 432):

"First, this kind of playing must not be subject to the beat, as we  
see done
in modern Madrigals, which, in spite of their difficulties, are  
made easier
by means of the beat, taking it now slowly, now quickly, and even  
held in

the air, to match the expressive effects, or the sense of the words."

In this passage, and in the one you quoted, Frescobaldi is talking
specifically about the performance of his toccatas for keyboard,  
and clearly
wants a very free performance. I would suggest that some of the  
early lute
ricercars might be approached in a similar way. If there is any  
irregularity
in the rhythm, it has to be for a purpose though, not just for its  
own sake.

The meaning of the word "ricercar" can give us a clue - searching out,
research, discovery, exploration - it is as if the performer is  
t

[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-02-01, at 11:26, Ron Fletcher wrote:

Hi Jerzy,
Your message has arrived on the list, so it should work in reverse.

Check your Junk-Mail folder.  List messages to you could be treated  
as spam.
You may need to re-set your spam-filter to allow these messages to  
reach

your Inbox.
Ron (UK)


and from Roman:
The ONLY solution is to get a GMAIL account, and have your Outlook  
access it on POP. Google's spamfilters are really quite good.

RT



Thanks for replys.

I'm using Mail on a mac and the gmail account. I'm receiving  
(hopefully) everything from the Lute-Liste and other correspondance.  
I am ONLY not receiving my own messages to the Liste.


I do not use any spam-filter and the junk mail box on my Mail is  
empty. Google works perfectly for me - no spam, no lost messages  
(except for my own List posts), but I tred to slightly change  
settings on it. In fact I've found my contributions to the Liste  
there, somewhere deep into the Inbox -> Threads... Why this is not  
resent to me??


Jurek
__



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[LUTE] a liste-machine

[Jerzy Zak]

Strange,
I'm not receiving messages I am sending to the Liste - Am I doing  
something wrog?


Jurek




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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-01-31, at 20:42, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote:


A small price to pay for being able to play a three-note chord over
middle C in first position?


That's the point and the most promising bit. However the price  
seems to me not small, indeed, and therefore my quest for someone  
maybe experienced.


Play an archlute! ;-)


I do not have one, but I have two 'thorboes' and am thinking of a  
third one, perhaps a fourth... ;-((?

J
__




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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-01-31, at 20:15, Bernd Haegemann wrote:

Are these markings in historical tabulatures too? I do not  
remember i

saw one.


I was thinking of the French ornamentation markings:  offhand the
only one I can think of without searching through the music is a
slanted line separating vertical tab letters, meaning to play them
separated.


But that are "separé" signs!
They don't mean rolling the chord.
B.


Sometime they are a real puzzle what they mean - thick texture, quick  
motion...

Jurek
_



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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Howard,

On 2008-01-31, at 18:59, howard posner wrote:

On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:56 AM, Jerzy Zak wrote:

Hm..., how many of you are playing continuo on a theorbo in 'd', if
it's so obvoius?

I'm not sure what the "it" in your question is.


Martyn Hodgson in his recent reply stated quite categorically there  
are two correct options (and I think he'll not repet it agan):


EITHER   nominal A or G tuned but with only the first course tuned  
an octave down ie highest course is the second at e for an A  
theorbo or d for a G theorbo;


  OR   with first two courses an octave down but at a higher  
nominal pitch eg in D like Talbot MS French lesser theorboe for  
lessons; note that in this case the highest pitched course is the  
third at e'.


I have my opinion on it, but I may be wrong as living on the province  
of the western culture, so I asked if the instrument tuned in D is in  
on a par with the one in A? Do you know it from calculations or  
experience?



When Ensemble Chanterelle consisted of Sally Sanford, Cathy Liddell
and Kevin Mason, their basic setup was voice, theorbo in A and
theorbo in D.  That was a while ago.

Linda Sayce says on her web site that she plays a lot of continuo on
a 76cm theorbo in D.


After a second lecture in fact I've found maybe less then 1% of text  
devoted to the 'French lesser theorboe' on the Linda's page:

http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm

Only here:
http://www.theorbo.com/Instruments/Monsieur.htm
she says:
"...I find this instrument is also surprisingly useful for continuo,  
especially for chamber works and pieces where the bass line is often  
simply too high for the A-tuned instrument."

but...
"To the best of my knowledge there is no evidence whatsoever for  
using a D theorbo for continuo, though I find it hard to believe that  
if the instrument was around, the professionals at least would not  
have used it for continuo!"


I beleve her! It is extremely tempting, but what about the register  
arround and below of the 6th course of the D theorbo? You say:



Answer 2: If you have eight fingerboard strings, you're chromatic
down to B-flat, so the only major problems are the low G#,F# and Eb.


That's cleare, but these are tricks! You have to learn them like solo  
fragments and they'll hardly pass as naturally as anything above 'd'.  
Try it on, say, Corelli or Couperin (middle to high baroque).



A small price to pay for being able to play a three-note chord over
middle C in first position?


That's the point and the most promising bit. However the price seems  
to me not small, indeed, and therefore my quest for someone maybe  
experienced.


Jurek
_



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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-01-31, at 18:20, LGS-Europe wrote:


Hm..., how many of you are playing continuo on a theorbo in 'd', if
it's so obvoius?


I don't. I keep mine (76cm) in a, first two courses down. All gut,  
415 to 466 tested. I don't see the point why not. I haven't seen  
valid and or historical arguments against it. It would work in d  
too, I'm sure.

David


I understand you, David, very well, I've also got older living for  
years with the machine in 'a'. But who have a camparable experience  
in playing in 'd'? Musicology maybe, but music performance is not a  
theory class and I'm interested how one manages with the bass notes  
below the _d_ on the 6th course of the instrument tuned in 'd'. This  
is more or less one third of the statistical bass notes in an everage  
part to play (depending of course on period and instrumentation).

Jurek
__



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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines

[Jerzy Zak]

Hm..., how many of you are playing continuo on a theorbo in 'd', if  
it's so obvoius?

Jurek
___



On 2008-01-31, at 17:25, LGS-Europe wrote:



 I've already very clearly explained how small theorboes (ie up to  
low 80s) were tuned (and even given sources for tablature) and  
generally really can't be bothered to continually repeat myself.  
However, in case you personally missed it,  I'll do it one more time:


 EITHER   nominal A or G tuned but with only the first course  
tuned an octave down ie highest course is the second at e for an A  
theorbo or d for a G theorbo;


 OR   with first two courses an octave down but at a higher  
nominal pitch eg in D like Talbot MS French lesser theorboe for  
lessons; note that in this case the highest pitched course is the  
third at e'.


 Interestingly, the fingered string length of this instrument  
which belonged to a
 M. Crevecoeur(s) and made by 'Sellier' (Sellas?) works out at  
76cm - squarely in the range that some modern players persist in  
using for a nominal A or G tuned theorbo with top two courses an  
octave down!

<<

Yes, I've missed it, sorry about that, so thank you for repeating  
yourself.
So 76cm works with first two strings down. I think so too. We  
agree. Both French and Italians would have come to the same  
conclusion: first two strings down works on 76cm. Your issue is  
French theorbe de piece was in d, and some modern players use the  
same string lengths with two first courses down at a or g.  Given a  
low French pitch (presumably somewhere near 392Hz) and a high  
Italian (440/466Hz at places), I see not much difference. If it  
works with the strings and your instrument, it works with your  
strings and your instrument. There will be a working range of  
tunings, d and a included. Anyway, nominal tunings are just naming  
conventions in a transposing world, with a floating pitch on top of  
that!


David








 MH



LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 To the benefit of those not interested in a peeing contest but in  
theories
on theorbo stringing, as I am, and not in the happy possesion of a  
list of
historical theorbos stating string length and setup, here's what  
the guys
are talking about (info taken from one of the Pohlmanns lying  
around here):


Atton
1x1, 5x2 = 77,5cm
6x1 = 147cm

Ecco
1x1, 5x2 = 75,5cm
6x1 = 161,5cm

Hoess
6x2 = 80cm
9x1 = 158cm

Kaiser
1x1, 6x2 = 73,1cm
6x1 = 157,6cm

Aman
1x1, 5x2 = 80,9cm
5x2 = 150,4cm

Koch
7x2 = 82,7cm
7x1 = 167,5cm

Langenwalder
6x1 = 76,4cm
8x1 = 141,5cm

Attore
1x1, 5x2 = 73cm
3x2 = 156cm

Attore
6x2 = 65,7cm
8x1 = 152cm

Mascotto
1x3, 4x2 = 74,5cm (original 1x1, 5x2)
6x1 = 158cm

The point here is, as I understand it from the discussion so far,  
not their
setup (6+8; 7+7; 8+6) or double versus single strung, but their  
relative
short stopped strings. Granted that some/many/all instruments are  
modified
over the years not all figures above are to be taken at face  
value. Perhaps
some instruments can be argued not to be therobos. Fine, but I'd  
say there
are instruments left we would call theorbos that have a stopped  
string
length of somewhere around 75 to 80cm. And I think enough of these  
to assume
there have been more around in the old days. I'm curious too, how  
were they

tuned according to you, Martyn?

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl





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-
Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox.

[LUTE]

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear List,
No browser can open an address beginning with: ed2k://

like in this:
ed2k://|file|hurel.zip|32417611|382

This is taken from page:
http://luthlibrairie.free.fr/?Baroque:Fran%26ccedil%3Baise

somewhere under:
Fac simile disponible en P2P

Jurek




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] theorbo music sources

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear List,

I know, the Christian MEYER catalogue of sources, both on paper and on 
the net is a splendid tool for searching through music in tablature, 
..but it doesn't mention (the www part) what is for lute and what is 
for a theorbo. In case of Italian chitarrone music there is Kevin Mason 
book, too, very usefull. My question, therefore, is -- do you know of 
any listing, possibly complete, of all other, not Italian, that is 
French!, German?, English??, etc., theorbo music sources, with their 
contents, of course?


Thanks in advance,
Jurek
_



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[LUTE] Re: Piccinini notation query

[Jerzy Zak]

For me the simple answer is:
-- three quick note / one long / three quick note / one long / etc...
Unless sombody knows another source with a more precise notation of the 
piece, there is no authoritative solution to the question. To my 
knowledge that generation of lutenists had no way to notate triplets, 
therefore several fragments uncleare rythmically may come from that 
problem (Kapsperger is full of such mad measures!). In the end I'd feel 
free to play as I like -- this is simple music with much space for 
''ornamentation'', also rythmical.

Just personal solution.
Best,
Jurek
___

On 2007-12-02, at 15:25, Rob wrote:

What do you think Piccinini is indicating here?
http://www.rmguitar.info/temp.htm
Bar 2 and similar: minim.triplet semiquavers.crotchet?
Rob MacKillop
www.rmguitar.info






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2007-11-30, at 21:31, sterling price wrote:

Hi-don't forget the G major suite in the London which requires the  
11th course to be stopped. Thats a fun one!

Sterling


Yes, it is a fun for player or a show for spectators, indeed. But  
musically I wouldn't cry not having the note on a 'swan' type  
instrument. One can easly move the bass note (or better both basses in  
the measure) up and play the Fugue. A few bars later a place similar  
harmonically has the C sharp on the 6th course, as usually, regardless  
of logics in the bass voice.
On the other hand, I tried the note on my 'Edlinger' and must say all  
the discussion on temperament not long ago on the Lute-Liste in this  
case would have to be put into fairy-tales.

Jurek
___




- Original Message 
From: Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Barocklautenliste Lutelist' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:30:22 AM
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan

For a long time I had only the 11-c lute and played everything on it,
including anything by Weiss, even Kropfgans, Hagen (Concerto!) and
Kohaut. However not without a pain in some places ;-)) As for dilema
between 'rider' or 'swan', the one or two notes stopped on the 9th or
10th course, what happens once or twice in a whole Weiss (I don't
remember), you cen always play an 8ve higher. I try to remember that
the amount of Music in music is the thing which matters. The rest is
technology.
Jurek
_


   
___ 
_

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[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties

[Jerzy Zak]

May be the other contrepartie has been ''(re)constructed''  ;-)) ?
Jurek



On 2007-11-26, at 18:08, Arthur Ness wrote:


Only two Visee contreparties are in Paris sources.

There is the wonderful finding tool that Christian Meyer
and his associates are making for our use.  It is a
life-time';s work, and far from complete.  But for what
it inventories so far (manuscript lute music in France, Switzerland,
Germany, the former East Bloc countries) it is very
throuough.  The indexes (by composer and by title) are
available on line.  The lists of contents of
the individual manuscripts are available in printed
volumes.  The printed lists also refer one to significant
literature and modern editions of the music. See here:

http://www.bnu.fr/smt/smt.htm

Apparently the pieces you seek have not turned up in the
sources so far indexed.

==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Mahler: Symphony No. 5
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
- Original Message - From: ""Mathias Rösel"" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:35 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties



"Taco Walstra" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:

On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel
rattled on the keyboard:
> Dear Collected Wisdom,
>
> on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta
> (Naxos), Eric Bellocq
> and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de
> Visee, totalling 12
> movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties
> can be found in the
> Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others
> were taken?

I presume they are from the two other paris
manuscripts with Visee theorbo
music.
taco


The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7
1106 and 6265?
Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive.
Would someone
please have a look if the contreparties are contained
in those two mss.?
Daniel? Nancy?
--
Mathias



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