[LUTE] Re: theorbo repertoire

[Jerzy Zak]

Roman,

Kapsperger covers partly your search. Look at L. IV d'intav di chitarrone 1640:

Preludio 5to - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Preludio 6to - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Toccata 3za - e-minor (finalis E-major)
Toccata 4ta - E-major!
Passacaglia on p. 34 - e-minor
Corrente on p. 46 - e-minor

This is one of the nicest key on theorbo.
No pieces in b-minor in this collection, however.
J
---


> On 19 Apr 2019, at 22:12, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> A question to the collective wisdom:
> Someone mentioned to me that there are practically no surviving solo theorbo 
> pieces in e-minor or b-minor.
> Is that true?
> 
> RT
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[LUTE] Re: Aegidius

[Jerzy Zak]

I could help but my file with scans of the MS is a little massy, I’d have to 
put the pages in order, what I could do this weekend, if you'll not find a 
faster solution.
Jerzy
—


> On 22 Mar 2018, at 13:41, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> I have to check a few concordances in Aegidius (CZ-Pnm G.IV.18) but my copy 
> is extremely poor.
> 
> Can anybody help?
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
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[LUTE] Re: Arciliuto, Matteo Sellas, Venezia 1639

[Jerzy Zak]

Great thanks, Paolo!
All the best,
Jerzy
—


> On 9 Aug 2017, at 21:08, Paolo Busato <pa.bus...@tiscali.it> wrote:
> 
>   Hello Jerzy,
> 
>   The Germanisches National Museum sells the drawing of that instrument.
>   Please find it at:
> 
>   [1]http://www.gnm.de/fileadmin/redakteure/Museum/pdf/gnm_tz_roentgen.pd
>   f
> 
>   in the Appendix: "Aus dem Besitz des Museo Civico Medievale in Bologna"
>   "Arciliuto (8x1/5x2+1 Saiten; 134/63,5 cm), Matteo Sellas, Venedig
>   1639. Ver-schiedene Details, Berippung, keine Deckenstärken. 209  x
>   104  cm".
> 
>   Best wishes,
> 
>   Paolo Busato lute-maker
>   [2]www.busatolutes.com
>   e-mail: paolo.busato[at]busatolutes.com
> 
>   _
>   Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da
>   considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è
>   indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati
>   di
>   eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003).  The
>   content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended
>   solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
>   addressed.
>If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email
>   and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003)
>   
> 
>   Il 09/08/2017 20:48, Jerzy Zak ha scritto:
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Where to get from a working drawing of the Arciliuto by Matteo Sellas, 
> Venezia 1
> 639, Cat. 104 - Inv. 1748?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Jerzy
> —
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.gnm.de/fileadmin/redakteure/Museum/pdf/gnm_tz_roentgen.pdf
>   2. http://www.busatolutes.com/
>   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Arciliuto, Matteo Sellas, Venezia 1639

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear All,

Where to get from a working drawing of the Arciliuto by Matteo Sellas, Venezia 
1639, Cat. 104 - Inv. 1748?

Thanks in advance,
Jerzy
—





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[LUTE] Re: Taned Spolski

[Jerzy Zak]

Rainer,

“Tanec Spolski” could mean “A Dance from Poland”, if understood as if properly 
written “Taniec z Polski”. Probably notated phonetically.

That reminds me a couple of dances in Pietro Paolo MELIJ, Intavolatura di Liuto 
attiorbato…, libro secondo, Venetia 1614, where one can find even funnier 
inscriptions mixing Polish names (to whom pieces were dedicated) with Italian 
grammar, but used as if twice… Needs complicated explanation, but seems also 
remembered/notated phonetically ;)

All the best,
Jerzy
---

> On 2 Jun 2017, at 19:51, adS  wrote:
> 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> can a member from Poland confirm that
> 
>   "Taned Spolski" (Vallet, 1615)
> 
> should be
> 
>   "Taniec polski"
> ?
> 
> If so, should it contain any special characters?
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
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> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivat Eliza

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Tomoko,
Try GoogleTranslate. Put your fraze in the space on the left, choose a language 
you think it is in, and press the little speaker underneath. Then keep changing 
languages until you think it rhymes best with ‘Ave María’. Stupid but works ;)

Jerzy
—


> On 23 Apr 2017, at 17:02, lutenist.mumin.koide gmail 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dear lute-list,
> 
> Could anyone help me clarify pronunciation of "Vivat Eliza" in Dowland's 
> composition 
> to Sir. Henry Lee's poem "Time's Eldest Son"?
> 
> I thought it could be " viːvæt ("Vivat" read in ecclesiastical Latin?) and " 
> əiːzə" (with this pronunciation it rhymes with "Ave Maria" ) though many sang 
> it " vaɪvæt əlάɪzə" for which I couldn't find any reason...
> 
> Tomoko
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Lutelist,

A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little experience 
with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need some advice from 
you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of strings, …if there is such 
typical spacing, of course. Anyway, at least a distance between the outer 
strings would be of help, if not all measurements.

Thanks in advance!
Jerzy Z
---




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: polska 41

[Jerzy Zak]

What is that title meaning, Romcio?
JŻ
---

On 2012-06-14, at 06:17, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 Trond Bengtson Polska -
 http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/music/polska/polska41.mp3
 http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/music/polska/polska41.pdf
 
 Enjoy.
 Amitiès,
 RT






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[LUTE] Tansman / de Visée

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear List,

Aleksander Tansman (1897-1986) wrote (or published) his Musique de Cour for 
guitar and orchestra, based on music by de Visée, about 1960. What 
editions/publications of de Visée guitar music were then available to him, as I 
doubt he or Segovia, to whom the work was dedicated, used any primary sources 
in tablatuer. I do have Le Pupitre edition (R Strizich) but it was published in 
France in 1969. Was there anything earlier in circulation, before the 1960, so 
inspiring?

Jerzy Zak
---




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[LUTE] diatessaron/diapente

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear friends,

In the Supplement to LUTE NEWS 99 there is a second part of Bach Suite bwv1006a 
intabulated by Wilfred Foxe. It is presented here in a key of D major, quite 
unusually. In the Critical Commentary Wilfred Foxe explains:

The tonality of the original suite is E major, and this has been transposed by 
a major second to D major. The Weiss Sonata 18 in D Major provides a useful 
structural example since the work makes use of the diatessaron above the 
diapente for a work with a high tessitura. In other of Weiss's sonatas with a 
high tessitura, such as Le fameaux corsaire -- Sonata 22 in F Major, the 
diatessaron is not employed. The fact that the same exists in BWV 1006a is the 
principal reason for adopting D major in preference to F major.

I understand what means diatessaron and diapente in Greek, as applied to 
historical music theory, but still I understand nothing from Wilfred's 
explanation. Can someone enlighten me on this?

Jurek
---




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Galant definition

[Jerzy Zak]

The Empfindsamkeit existed as a style of composition (eg. CPEBach), as well as 
a style of performance (say, the Baron anegdote). It's helpfull to see it as 
two diferent phenomenons. The first one is quite easily recognizable or even 
quantifiable (form, harmony, texture), the other one might have been a very 
subjective case… Now we can only speculate, as on all this HIP.

J


On 2010-10-23, at 17:07, Christopher Wilke wrote:

 Yes, there is definitely something to it and it has always been part of music 
 history.  The ancient Greeks believed that the various modes could incite 
 anger, lust, insanity, etc.  In the renaissance, Bernardino Cirillo called 
 upon composers to set aside the cantus firmus and write Masses in using 
 similar methods as the ancient Greeks to incite piety, supplication, praise, 
 etc.  (The modes he knew were not the same as the Greeks', however!)
 
 I see Empfindsamkeit as a sort of hyper-extension of the baroque doctrine of 
 the affections.  It really uses super-affectation, with moods changing 
 unexpectedly almost violent contrasts every other moment.  Thus, confident, 
 martial music might suddenly dissolve into a section featuring the most 
 tender lyricism and then explode into mood of a frenetic nervousness.  This 
 is really what's meant by calling the music sensitive - quite the opposite 
 of an overly precious manner.  Unfortunately, few performers go out on a limb 
 and play this repertoire with correctly exaggerated interpretation nowadays.  
 For me, though, it represents virtuosity of total control.
 
 Chris
 
 
 
 
 Christopher Wilke
 Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
 www.christopherwilke.com
 
 
 --- On Sat, 10/23/10, G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 From: G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Galant definition
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Saturday, October 23, 2010, 4:34 AM
 PS. At the same time I have to say
 that extreme cases of use of Minor - Mayor can definitely
 trigger feelings of sadnes and joy respectively in me, so
 there has to be something in the Affekt theory...
 
 G.
 - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke
 chriswi...@yahoo.com
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
 G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com
 Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:30 AM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Galant definition
 
 
 Are you speaking of Affekt?  Mattheson goes into
 great detail about the moods associated with each key, but I
 don't believe that this is really more a part of the baroque
 aesthetic and not typical of the gallant style.
 There is the famous story about how Baron was made to
 look foolish for believing in the then somewhat
 unfashionable (and un-gallant) idea of music's power to
 excite the passions directly.
 
 Chris 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?

[Jerzy Zak]

Unfortunately, modern music needs playing on the highest level, including a 
well tuned instrument.
I'm wonderig if, besides of the superstition of the tablature, the double 
stringing of the lute isn't another obstacle in activating a lute to do what 
cpmposer/performer wants to do. Notice that a single strung theorbo survives in 
company with other instruments, whereas double strung lute has problems.

Besides, the d-m tuning has great and still unexplored potency, against Peter 
Croton's reluctance to it
http://www.peter-croton.com/Bach_CD.html
and especially Paolo Cherici's view on its usebility
http://www.preludiomusic.com/doc/news/allegati/13-bach-visione.pdf

J
-

On 2010-10-09, at 12:57, Bernd Haegemann wrote:

 Hi Stephan, dear all,
 http://www.modernlutemusic.com/
 I don't remember if there is something for d-minor lute on this site, but  
 interesting anyway.
 There is for example
 
 http://www.modernlutemusic.com/AMORIC__MICHEL.html
 
 some pieces for the dm-lute
 even with a tablature of Blancrocher XXI, unfortunately without the related 
 Hupfauf Blancmanger XVII ;)
 I have the whole CD! Doesn't rock at first listening :)
 
 **
 
 What about the pieces by Toyohiko Satoh, dear David?
 He knows the idiom for sure, and I believe he also has something to say, 
 musically.
 
 best regards
 Bernd
 
 
 
 
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?

[Jerzy Zak]

Arto,

Better not wait until a miracle will happen. The easiest way, and widely 
accepted now, to have a new piece of music is to commision it. It's not that 
expensive as one might think. From time to time I hear of a colegue of mine 
that is asking a professional composer, or a music festival commisiong a new 
work for the next edition. I've heared in Germany there is a special fund for 
this kind of initiatives at the Deutscher Musikrat.

Of course it is risky, but that only encourages one to gain better orientation 
in what's possible. Most of the composers don't present Beethoven's like 
attitude and are open to one's expectations. However, they like to take care of 
the future presentation and also do not like to risk a poor performance. So it 
is in a way a subtle interplay between parties, nevertheless quite real and 
brings fruits from time to time, of what I was witness not once.

If I remember well, Julian Bream in his Way on the road recounts he used to 
pay for a new composition a tipical monthly salary, if -- say -- the process of 
composition would take a month of time. My friends are paying even less to 
their friends. It all amounts to profesionalism and good will.

I should also say Scandinavia is famous for its traditions for modern music. 
Perhaps Jacob Lindberg or Rolf Lislevand has some experience.

J


On 2010-10-09, at 15:17, wikla wrote:

 Hi all, 
 
 definitely my intention was not to insult Roman! I think Roman knows that,
 but perhaps not all other? I do know only a tiny portion of Roman's huge
 output, but still I have seen many beautiful pieces he has composed or
 arranged. And they also work well on the instrument.
 
 My aim was more general: Should there be new music for our old instrument,
 what kind of music, ... I was not especially asking for modern music in
 the sense of 1950's and 1960's trends. Not at all. Neither was I asking for
 music that doesn't stylistically differ from the original baroque.
 
 Actually it is quite difficult to say, what I asked, because I really do
 not know! If I could, that music wouldn't be new! So I guess best I can
 say, I would like composers to try their hands in writing to the baroque
 lute. Without me saying what kind of music that should be. Well, of course
 I can say: it should be good music... ;-)
 
 All the best,
 
 Arto
 
 
 
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Hans Neeman Photo

[Jerzy Zak]

It is probably from:

JLSA, Volume XII (1979)
Paul Beier, “Right-Hand Position in Renaissance Lute Technique”
Mirco Caffagni, “The Modena Tiorba Manuscript”
Lyle Nordstrom, “A Lute Duet of John Dowland”
John Griffiths, “The Lutes in the Museo Municipal de Musica in Barcelona”
-- Kurt Rottmann, “The Resurrection of the Lute in Twentieth-Century Germany”
-- Josef Klima, “The D Minor Lute in Central Europe After the Second World War”
Reviews, Communications

Unfortunately, somehow I lost this very volume and have no idea how to get 
another copy. I'd be much gratefull if somebody could copy/scan the last two 
articles for me, certainly not without appreciation of similr nature.
J
--

On 2010-10-08, at 19:11, sterling price wrote:

 Well I found the photo of Hans Neeman and his semi-tone device. I scanned it 
 so 
 if anyone wants to see it let me know. Still not sure where I copied it 
 from...
 
 Sterling
 
 
 
 - Original Message 
 From: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 8:07:20 AM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New Semi-Tone Device
 
 Some more info about the semi tone device.
 The base is made of maple stained black. The nut is lignum vitae as well a 
 the 
 smaller nut which actually raises or 'frets' the course.
 Hide glue is used.
 Also I am looking for the photo I have of Hans Neeman. I think it was from an 
 old LSA quarterly or journal. Does anyone know which one?
 Sterling
 
 
 
 - Original Message 
 From: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 5:30:25 AM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] New Semi-Tone Device
 
 Dear all--
 
 I have just created a new semi-tone device for a Jauck type baroque lute. 
 This 
 allows me to change the pitch of bass strings by a half step without tuning. 
 I 
 can go from say e-flat minor to A-major in just a few seconds with complete 
 stability. 
 
A similar semi-tone device is seen on the 1732 lute by J.H. 
 Goldt,(formerly 
 in the VA) of course I don't know when it was added. Also Hans Neeman and 
 his 
 associates used semi-tone devices on all their baroque lutes including bass 
 rider lutes in the 1930s. (This I know from a photograph of Neeman and his 
 lutes).
If anyone is interested I can send pics of my new device.
 
 Sterling
 
 
   
 
 
 
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 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?

[Jerzy Zak]

The actual contemporary idiom or academic idiom predominates on best 
contemporary music festivals and specialized record labels. But not all 
interesting composers feel bound to it and some of them aren't eschewing pitch 
and rhytm notation, nither are post-Minimalists. But it is extremaly hard to 
write good and well sounding music for lute, or in fact any plucked instrument, 
without skills of actualy playing it… But I'm optimistic, incuding the d-m 
genus. Just let's forget about the tablature and we'll get out of the getto.

J
-

On 2010-10-09, at 01:41, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 Stefan's music is very good in fact, and thoroughly modern.
 I'd add to that a distinction that it is MODERNIST, but NOT CONTEMPORARY
 in style and character. His non-lutenistic works are far more contemporary in 
 character.
 
 The actual contemporary idiom is either eschewing all notion of discernible 
 pitch and rhythm
 (and thus utterly unsuitable for our instruments), or post-Minimalist (like 
 that Russian woman
 composer in Australia who wrote for theorbo, her name escapes me).
 RT
 
 
 
 
 
 - Original Message - From: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com
 To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:11 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?
 
 
 There is the fine music of Stefan Lundgren for baroque lute written in a 
 modern
 style.
 
 Sterling
 
 
 
 - Original Message 
 From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 5:04:51 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] New music to d-minor tuning?
 
 Dear d-minor gang,
 
 just for checking: is there any new music to the d-m-baroque tuning?
 
 This time I am not interested the anchronistic movement of composing new
 baroque music (really sorry Roman!), neither I am interested in the
 ethninic arrangements of (perhaps?) imagined folk songs (again, sorry
 Roman).
 
 So, is that wonderful instrument we adore (=tuning) going to survive
 without new and clever music composed?
 
 I guess not.
 
 Arto
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?

[Jerzy Zak]

Let's not fall into extremities. There are other humans making music as well:
http://www.nina.gov.pl/en/node/487  -- 19 minutes

Or a short retrospection of Szymanski's music:
http://www.nina.gov.pl/szymanski-dvd-1-plytowe

The text on the pages is not important.
J
-


On 2010-10-09, at 02:24, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 Arto,
 Do you REALLY want lute music to sound like
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhXNIrQJR80 this???
 
 RT
 
 
 From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
 Dear d-minor gang,
 just for checking: is there any new music to the d-m-baroque tuning? This 
 time I am not interested the anchronistic movement of composing new
 baroque music (really sorry Roman!), neither I am interested in the
 ethninic arrangements of (perhaps?) imagined folk songs (again, sorry
 Roman).
 So, is that wonderful instrument we adore (=tuning) going to survive
 without new and clever music composed? I guess not.
 Arto
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?

[Jerzy Zak]

Roman,

Creation without possibility of beeing evaluated and criticized is sentenced to 
dye. How many people new tablature notation in 1750 and could write for lute? 
-- few; how many professional composers know tab. notation today? -- ?? Wake up 
from your sweet dreams and mysteries of lute's disability …or by her a new 
crutch.

Your virtuoso minimalist judgements make impression, but can be easily used in 
oposit direction, so I ignore them. However other instruments are doing quite 
well despite being immerse in the fecalia bovina -- I'd love to live in their 
stinky situation and have their choice of styles and composers.

Chopin-esque harmony is truly matchless and probably timeless, I'd love to get 
to know Andre Burguete ambitious lute music -- where to find it?

Much more can be said, but on this side it's long after time to bad ;-)
J



On 2010-10-09, at 03:20, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 I'm not sure isolation is negative in our case.
 I've had many conversations about our instrument with Hans Kockelmans,
 who is an avantgarde composer AND a lutenist. He would never mix the two
 together, and he said something with which I wholeheartedly agree:
 lute in general, and baroque lute in particular simply doesn't tolerate 
 modernist
 music, the reasons for which are mysterious, but very likely stemming from 
 its acoustical
 nature.
 As to tabulature: it really saves the lute from a lot of conseptualist 
 fecalia bovina
 that afflicts other instruments.
 RT
 
 
 
 - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
 To: Baroque Lute List (E-mail) baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 8:39 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?
 
 
 The actual contemporary idiom or academic idiom predominates on best 
 contemporary music festivals and specialized record labels. But not all 
 interesting composers feel bound to it and some of them aren't eschewing 
 pitch and rhytm notation, nither are post-Minimalists. But it is extremaly 
 hard to write good and well sounding music for lute, or in fact any plucked 
 instrument, without skills of actualy playing it… But I'm optimistic, 
 incuding the d-m genus. Just let's forget about the tablature and we'll get 
 out of the getto.
 
 J
 -
 
 On 2010-10-09, at 01:41, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 
 Stefan's music is very good in fact, and thoroughly modern.
 I'd add to that a distinction that it is MODERNIST, but NOT CONTEMPORARY
 in style and character. His non-lutenistic works are far more contemporary 
 in character.
 
 The actual contemporary idiom is either eschewing all notion of discernible 
 pitch and rhythm
 (and thus utterly unsuitable for our instruments), or post-Minimalist (like 
 that Russian woman
 composer in Australia who wrote for theorbo, her name escapes me).
 RT
 
 
 
 
 
 - Original Message - From: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com
 To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:11 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New music to d-minor tuning?
 
 
 There is the fine music of Stefan Lundgren for baroque lute written in a 
 modern
 style.
 
 Sterling
 
 
 
 - Original Message 
 From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 5:04:51 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] New music to d-minor tuning?
 
 Dear d-minor gang,
 
 just for checking: is there any new music to the d-m-baroque tuning?
 
 This time I am not interested the anchronistic movement of composing new
 baroque music (really sorry Roman!), neither I am interested in the
 ethninic arrangements of (perhaps?) imagined folk songs (again, sorry
 Roman).
 
 So, is that wonderful instrument we adore (=tuning) going to survive
 without new and clever music composed?
 
 I guess not.
 
 Arto
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Hinerleithner

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Andreas,

You were reading in my mind, incredible! I needed the print since ages. It is 
partly published and described in DDÖ Band 50: Österreichische Lautenmusik 
zwischen 1650 und 1720, Graz 1918/R1960, Edited by A. Koczirz (along with other 
composers -- JG Peyer, JG Weichenberger, Graf Logi, WL von Radolt, JTh 
Herold, J de Saint Luc, HJF Biber, BG Muffat, C Graf Tallard, DR Berhandtzki).

The publicarion has many errors, but going further into this staff is really 
teaching, for exemple Weiss background, specially the ensemble music with lute 
he was listening to as a young musician. It is a pity Weiss was not interested 
in publishing his music, and it is not a question of lack of demand, but -- in 
my view -- ill fated tendency to keep things in private circulation. Perhaps it 
worked in individeal cases but generally it was one of the nails to the lute's 
coffin. But there were others still…

Thanks Andreas,
J
--


On 2010-09-13, at 08:08, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

 Hello
 
 I ordered a scan from Hinterleithner from Munich - and my scan is now 
 online and I'm still waiting on my CD-ROM and the invoice...
 
 Enjoy!
 
 http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0005/bsb00052434/images/
 
 Andreas
 
 
 
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Blohm

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Ziv,

Per Kjetil Farstad is right -- indeed, I've gathered the few available 
information on him plus research on the Polish-Saxon court in Warsaw made some 
years ago by Alina Zorawska-Witkowska. It is nothing special, similarily to his 
four known to me compositions -- rather scratchy music. I'll traslate it into 
English and send you.

Best regards,
Jurek
-

On 2010-08-14, at 19:43, Per Kjetil Farstad wrote:

 Hello
 
 I think Jerzy Zak has written something on one Johann BLUME /Bluhme, Blüme, 
 Bluhm, Blohm - in an article called
 Lute and music for lute in the 18th-century Warsaw
 
 The text was presented at the seminar 400 years of music at the Royal Castle 
 in Warsaw / Jubilee of the twentieth anniversary of the concerts of the 
 castle, published in the Chronicle of Castle Hill, No 2/46/2003, Warsaw 
 2004, p. 147-161. Someone translated this text to English, but I can't 
 remember who.
 
 Best regards from
 Per Kjetil Farstad
 
 Den 14. aug. 2010 kl. 18.27 skrev ziv braha:
 
  Hello friends,
  Does anyone has any bibliographical information on our famous Signr.
  Blohm?
  I would appreciate any help.
  Greetings,
  Ziv Braha
  --
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
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 --

[LUTE] Re: 4 lutes

[Jerzy Zak]

To All,
and to Anton,

You are very kind and generous man but please do not use the rapidshare.com 
service in future, as it is definitely not a free service as it may look. I 
have a necessity to use it just few times a year and not by my own choice, so I 
don't feel the necessity to pay for it. But sometime we are directed to there, 
and then the problems come about.

When I see for several minutes that I'm downloading something -- which is not 
true, and have to wait, and then the fraze: You have reached the download 
limit for free-users. Would you like more? -- having downloaded NOTHING, I 
cannot refrain from reaction. This is a suspicious service built on tricks and 
lies. Anton, and others, please, consider moving you splendid libraries to some 
other places for the benefit of all. And it's not that I so much need to put my 
hands on your stuff at the moment, but it's simply not the place for us. So I 
think ;-)

Kind regards,
Jurek
-


On 2010-04-12, at 16:36, Anton Höger wrote:

 hi,
 
 and alt last but (perhaps not at least)
 
 pieces for 4 lutes
 
 
 7.) pieces for 4 Lutes  (4 equal lutes -Unisono)
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374955046/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon_Laute_1.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374955549/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon_Laute_2.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374956181/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon_Laute_3.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374956924/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon_Laute_4.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/375032168/Bartolini__Orindio_-_Canzon.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374957635/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere-L-1.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374958233/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere-L-2.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374958753/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere-L-3.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374959396/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere-L-4.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374960877/Corteccia__Francesco_-_Ingredere.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374962266/Giovanni_Gabrielli_-_Hodie_Christus_natus_est.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374962705/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus-L-1.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374963223/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus-L-2.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374963653/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus-L-3.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374964102/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus-L-4.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374965176/Ghizzolo__Giovanni_-_O_quam_suavis_est_Domine_spiritus_tuus.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374966138/Lassus_-_Un_jour_l_amant.pdf
 
 
 
 ___
 8.) pieces for 4 Lutes  (2 equal lutes  2 lutes a Quarth deeper (ad Quartam)
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374934733/Bramieri__Claudio_-_Canzona_La_Foccara.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374954465/Gabrieli_-_Chiar__Angioletto.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374947306/Gabrieli_-_Jam_non_dicam.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374931519/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_seconda.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374949951/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni-L-1.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374950645/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni-L-2.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374951307/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni-L-3.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374951995/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni-L-4.pdf
 http://rapidshare.com/files/374953565/Gabrieli__Giovanni_-_Canzon_Primii_Toni.pdf
 
 
 Have fun and play them. 
 
 Warm regards
 
 Anton
 --
 
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Grodkow/Grottkau Weiss 2010

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear All,

I'd like to let you know about the next SL Weiss Festival in Grodkow (formerly 
Grottkau), Poland, 8-10th of April 2010. This is already the IInd festival, 
still only three days, four concerts, but we hope it'll develope in the future.

Here is a link to the bill or poster: http://www.jerzyzak.eu/WEISS-2010_red.pdf

It is in Polish, as it's for the local community in the first place, but I hope 
in the future it might appear attractiv to a wider circles as well. But we 
already do have distinguished guests from abroad, first of all Joachim Held 
from Germany, who will paly a solo recital on the evening of th 9th of April 
with music by Reusner and Weiss.

Paradoxically to us today, Weiss was living at the time when all were listening 
and playing only modern music (to say in short). In order to get that feeling, 
…or may be mixed feelings, or uneasy feelings, who knows -- we will have modern 
music too ;-) In December 2009 Marek Pasieczny ( 
http://pasieczny.com/category/compositions/ ) composed a new full scale suite 
for baroque lute and I'll have a pleasure to perform it for the first time 
during the first festival day, in a programme along with the Divoti Affetti 
for soprano, alto and continuo by GA Ristori (1692-1753), a Warsaw composer 
during the Polish-Saxon Union under both Augusts.

We will also have other 'Silesiana', this year mainly in the music by C Ditters 
von Dittersdorf, a contemporary of Haydn, as well as tiny bit of early romantic 
music by J Elsner (1769-1854), also born in Grottkau(!) and later a teacher of 
F Chopin.

All concerts will be announced by Ania Wiktoria Swoboda, still a student of 
mine, and recently especially well versed in all things E Reusners, by the way 
another Silesian.

I hope you'll find this information usefull,
Kind regards,
Jurek
(Jerzy Zak)
--



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Dresden 13-string guitar

[Jerzy Zak]

Will you risk to see it? Do you remember of the Falckenhagen lute?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir9Ur-K06TIfeature=related

Jurek
---




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[LUTE] T Merula

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear All,

I'm looking for a collection of vocal music with continuo : Il Curtio  
precipitato... of 1638 by Tarquinio MERULA. Seams that the net is  
full of CD recordings but no edition, either modern score or a  
facsimile. Do you know where to get it from?


Thanks in advance,
Jurek
___



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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote:


The problem here is that single stringing is historical,

..

Yeee...
There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to florish,  
in the best possible terms.
Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and  
establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence.

Some are doing this and saying the other ;-)

The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in  
our hands. Look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco
Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his  
opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc.,  
etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a  
florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very  
simple matter of fact?


Single stringing is historical ;-)))

J
__



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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2009-07-10, at 14:09, David van Ooijen wrote:


On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Jerzy Zakjurek...@gmail.com wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco



Single stringing is historical ;-)))




As is playing from empty scores. ;-)

David


That's right! I know one wired gamba player and composer(!) who once  
has done a fantastic performance, as if reading from a score. After  
the concert we've seen the score… and that was the best part


J
___




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[LUTE] Re: The Glogauer Liederbuch

[Jerzy Zak]

Try to contact Dr Pawel Gancarczyk
pawel.gancarc...@ispan.pl

from IS PAN (The Institute of Art - Polish Academy of Science)
http://www.ispan.pl/eng/instituteofart.htm

In his choice of publications (Wybor publikacji) you can find in  
English e.g.:

http://www.ispan.pl/stronyprac/ISPAN/gancarczyk_pawel.php

-- The Neapolitan Repertory in the Glogauer Liederbuch, [in:] Polish  
Musical Culture within the European Context, red. Zofia Helman,  
Warszawa 2004, s. 38–48 (= Musicology Today 1)

-- …also other texts, either close to, or in Polish or German

and a review of:
Dieter Kirsch, Lenz Meierott: Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau,  
Mainz 1992, „Muzyka” 45: 2000, nr 1, s. 87–89


The Glogauer Liederbuch is at the Jagiellonian Library, Krakow, Poland  
at the moment

http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/index_en.php
and you can simply order a microfilm or digitized copy. The copies  
does the same man who's done the Spinacino two years ago for his 500th  
anniversary. Quite good.


Regards,
Jurek
__


On 2009-07-10, at 15:54, nedma...@aol.com wrote:


  Does anyone know if there is an edition of the Glogauer Liederbuch
  currently available?  A search on the web gives me information about
  it, but not if it's available.  Amazon lists it as out of print and
  either unavailable or of limited availability.

  Ned






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[LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Karl,
I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years  
and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of  
some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single  
strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single  
strings. It is possible.


Thanks for the observation,
Jurek



On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote:


J,
if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than  
13 or 14.


Karl

- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute



On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote:


The problem here is that single stringing is historical,

..

Yeee...
There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to  
florish,  in the best possible terms.
Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and  
establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence.

Some are doing this and saying the other ;-)

The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely  
in  our hands. Look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco
Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his   
opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla,  
etc.,  etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful  
thinking, a  florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a  
trick or a very  simple matter of fact?


Single stringing is historical ;-)))

J
__



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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, it is not simplified view of a famous player. Look at the  
6-line staves, with all its unevennesses and shades, and many other  
detailes… It's obvious, Falckenhagen was a man of his time… (you can  
develope it however you like). His own music has nothing to do with  
Weiss or JSBach, which he probably transcribed, perhaps in his Leipzig  
school years. It is the time of the Mannheim school, Leopold Mozart  
and so on. Consider the articulation resources of the time needed or  
indispensable. Etc…


I won't go further on, however I'm temped ;-)
J
_

On 2009-07-10, at 16:54, Roman Turovsky wrote:

The englaving is unusually precise. Look for the strange slots cut  
in the walls of the pegbox. especially the bass side.

It sure looks like an angelique to me.
RT

- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
To: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de
Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:46 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute


Dear Karl,
I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years
and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of
some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single
strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single
strings. It is possible.

Thanks for the observation,
Jurek



On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote:


J,
if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than   
13 or 14.


Karl

- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute



On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote:


The problem here is that single stringing is historical,

..

Yeee...
There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to   
florish,  in the best possible terms.
Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and  
establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence.

Some are doing this and saying the other ;-)

The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely   
in  our hands. Look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco
Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man,  
his   opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla  
bla,  etc.,  etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again.  
Wishful  thinking, a  florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence?  
Is it a  trick or a very  simple matter of fact?


Single stringing is historical ;-)))

J
__



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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, it is not simplified view of a famous player…
I won't go further on, however I'm temped ;-)
J
_

But I can easily imagine Falckenhagen playing Weiss on his instrument.
By the way, is somewhere in image of that Straube's lute which  
Geinsborough(?spelling) bought from him in London?

J


On 2009-07-10, at 16:54, Roman Turovsky wrote:

The englaving is unusually precise. Look for the strange slots cut  
in the walls of the pegbox. especially the bass side.

It sure looks like an angelique to me.
RT

- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
To: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de
Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:46 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute


Dear Karl,
I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years
and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of
some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single
strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single
strings. It is possible.

Thanks for the observation,
Jurek



On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote:


J,
if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than   
13 or 14.


Karl

- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute



On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote:


The problem here is that single stringing is historical,

..

Yeee...
There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to   
florish,  in the best possible terms.
Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and  
establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence.

Some are doing this and saying the other ;-)

The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely   
in  our hands. Look at this:

http://tinyurl.com/muyoco
Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man,  
his   opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla  
bla,  etc.,  etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again.  
Wishful  thinking, a  florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence?  
Is it a  trick or a very  simple matter of fact?


Single stringing is historical ;-)))

J
__



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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

But who invented the re-entrant?
J



On 2009-07-10, at 18:26, Mathias Rösel wrote:


Okay, found it out. The term was invented in the 20th century. No
Erzlaute in Grimm's dictionary. The term may sound ancient in German,
but in fact it is an artificial term, created in order to categorize
types of lutes. I'd say, forget Erzlaute.

Mat


Perhaps, it's a matter of dictionaries, indeed. Not sure for English
archlute, but Erzlaute was defined to mean what we'd today call
theorboed lutes by Sachs. Seem to remember he even invented the name.
Will look it up when I'm back home tonight.

As for booklets, Erzlaute isn't very frequen= tly mentioned at all
because there aren't many recordings with arciliuto, liuto  
attiorbato,
archlute available over here. All theorbo players I know will call  
their

instrument Theorbe or Chitarrone, certainly not Erzlaute.

Respectfully, too,

Mathias


  -Original-Nac= hricht-

Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Datum: Fri, 10= Jul 2009 10:48:38 +0200
Von: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal= .net
An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu= ;
Although I will of course defer to my German
co= lleagues in matters of native language,
I have used the term for = 35 years in Germany with no problems.
If you take a few hundred C= Ds from the last
thirty years you will find that the term is
usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently.
= You will also find from the same period that a
proportion of the= se CDs also conflates the terms
theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute= , so there can't
be a definite meaning for the terms.
H= istorically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an
a= rchlute.
Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often

  = gt; are in the disposition of the instruments.

This is understand= able, however, since many
unabridged German dictionaries give Erz= laute as a
synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and
translate it as archlute, not theorbo.
For CDs that are ori= ginally in English or French
those who rely on these dictionaries= for CD notes
and translations thus keep the term current.

  = gt; In addition, musicological papers as well as

Festival booklet= s from major festivals use not
only these dictionaries but also t= he Grove
Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines,
rig= htly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute.

So it could be = that there is a difference between
the written use of the word an= d the spoken use of
the word, but of course the word mainly appea= rs in printed

  material.


Respectfully,
dt


At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote:

Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb:

= ;  That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays:

  teorbierte

laute (or close to that spelling),
= br / 

It's become part of the history of research.= With Pohlmann (ch.

  7),

Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theo= rbierte Laute. According to

  his

definition, Theorbenlauten w= ere lutes with first pegboxes bent

  back

and second pegboxes = attached in the direction of the neck.

If I'= m not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed
l= utes today.

To complete confusion, he added:= Theorbierte Lauten werden auch
Knickhalslauten genannt, di= e auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder
rechts Aufsaetze fuer = die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben.
Theorbierte Lauten= are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with
bent-back necks= ), which have riders on their pegboxes on the  
left

and(or on= the right for the highest or lowest strings.

= ; Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this

  sophisticated
  =   definition. My, o my.




=   the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant.


  =   It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either.  
Some

  ha= ve

tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurre= nt,
retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions o= f  
someone
running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tun= ing_ is sort  
of

coming back.

= ; Mathias



On 2009-07-09= , at 22:14, Mathias Roesel wrote:


= gt;  And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as

= ;sweeping IMHO,

neglecting differe= nces between the liuto attiorbato, the
arciliuto a= nd the archlute.

Someone= put a language link to it into
http://de.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is

  misleading.

The G= erman term Erzlaute was meant to be generic.

Mathias


=  Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb:
g= t;

David,
Than= ks for that.

B= esides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the

=   latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites



. I'm absolutely
  =  not qualified to comment on that, but would love t=  
o read

other's -- just to remind it's still = untouched by other
pluckers. Perhaps some lu= te exemple


??

  = 

J

g= t;   _



= 

On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler w= rote:


Arc= hlute
dt

= gt;

At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote:

What is an Erzlaute?
=  The other instruments pecified on the page are o=  
rgan,

harpsichord, violins

[LUTE] Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

What is an Erzlaute?
The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord,  
violins, cello, guitar, theorbE.


jz
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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an  
eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord,  
at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and  
composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-))


j
_


On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote:

I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between  
hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse harpsichord.

It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler.
RT (fan of both)


- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute


That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte
laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an
awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what.
Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g.
the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music movement
is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the
last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years.

Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some
XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang,
Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau.

J
__

On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote:

And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping   
IMHO,
neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto  
and

the archlute.

Someone put a language link to it into
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The
German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic.

Mathias

Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb:

David,
Thanks for that.

Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest
semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites

. I'm absolutely

not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's --
just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps  
some

lute exemple

??


J
_


On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote:


Archlute
dt

At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote:

What is an Erzlaute?
The other instruments pecified on the page are organ,  
harpsichord,

violins, cello, guitar, theorbE.

jz




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[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute

[Jerzy Zak]

Quite possible!, must find some recordings, seriously.
…
OK, just recent historical music ;))

J


On 2009-07-10, at 00:33, Roman Turovsky wrote:

And in the case of Eisler and Dessau it can be positively classy,  
especially when Gisela May sung to such an accompaniment.

RT

From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an
eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord,
at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and
composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-))

j
_


On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote:

I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between   
hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse  
harpsichord.

It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler.
RT (fan of both)


- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute


That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte
laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an
awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter  
what.

Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g.
the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music  
movement

is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the
last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years.

Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some
XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang,
Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau.

J
__

On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote:

And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping  
IMHO,
neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the  
arciliuto  and

the archlute.

Someone put a language link to it into
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The
German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic.

Mathias

Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb:

David,
Thanks for that.

Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest
semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites

. I'm absolutely

not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's --
just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps   
some

lute exemple

??


J
_


On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote:


Archlute
dt

At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote:

What is an Erzlaute?
The other instruments pecified on the page are organ,   
harpsichord,

violins, cello, guitar, theorbE.

jz




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Telemann enquiry

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear All,

The two Telemann suites comes from one of the Grüssau collection of  
tablatures (now in Wroclaw, Warsaw and one possibly in Stockholm) and  
the volume in question is now at the Warsaw University Library.

Old shelf no.: Ms. Mf. 2001 a+b
Present shelf no.: PL-Wu RM 4135

The first duet --
1st lute part, p.41:
PARTIE / POLONOISE / en / B. / Traduite de C. / A Deux Luths / Pour /  
Le Premiere / N° 6to. / Faite à 2 violes: et La Basse: Par L'Autheur /  
Msr Melante


2nd lute part, p.41:
PARTIE / POLONOISE / en / B. / Traduite de C. / A Deux Luths / Pour /  
Le Secondiême / N° 6to. / Faite à 2 viole[s]: / et La Basse: / Par  
L'Autheur / Msr Melante


The second duet --
1st lute part, p.99:
PARTIE / N° 13 / en / G. / Traduite d'A. / A Deux Luths. / Avec cet  
Accord [accord] / Pour / Le Premiere. / Faite à 2 hautbois; / 1 viole  
discordée; / 1 taille; et la Basse; / Par l'Autheur / Msr Melante


2nd lute part, p.97:
PARTIE / N° 13 / en / G. / Traduite d'A. / A Deux Luths. / Avec cet  
Accord [accord] / Pour / Le Secondiême. / Faite à 2 hautbois: / 1  
viole discordée: / 1 taille: / et La Basse: / Par l'Autheur / Mrs  
Melante


The tablature is a genuine baroque lute tablature (not for mandora,  
etc.). The Library intends to scan the entire collection (Mf. 2001,  
2003, 2004,2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010 [already done], 2011) and to  
place them online. I think it's a question of the next few month,  
maybe a bit longer.


According to:
Ruhnke, Martin Georg Philipp Telemann: Thematisch-Systematisches  
Verzeichnis seiner Werke (in three volumes) Kassel 1984/1992/1999,  
Barenreiter, the Teleman's originals are not known - as fare as I  
remember. I don't know of anybody who's found them on his own, either.  
All in all, a very effective, interesting music ...I'd say light  
music but still better then the newly found the new Harrah/Weiss  
original duet in C.  ;-))


Best to all interested,
Jurek


On 2009-04-06, at 17:51, Martyn Hodgson wrote:




  Thank you for this. I can't see any attribution to Telemann in this
  fromino file - how do we know they're by Telleman? Is there an  
original

  Telemann MS in, presumably, staff notation from which a contemporary
  player would have transcribed these partitas into tablature for  
the Dm

  lute?

  I do see that the 11th bass is used (ie goes down to low C if a Dm
  tuning) which might exclude the possibility of a madora if the
  transcription/arrangement were faithful to the original

  MH
  --- On Mon, 6/4/09, Jose Luis joslui...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Jose Luis joslui...@gmail.com
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Telemann enquiry
To: Luca Manassero l...@manassero.net
Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 6 April, 2009, 11:40 AM

  In Yahoo Fronimo Group, you have a free complete edition.
  File: Warsaw-2001
  Best wishes,
  Jose Luis
  2009/4/6, Luca Manassero [1]l...@manassero.net:

Dear Ian,

   this enquiry sounds extremely interesting. Many years ago Narciso
Yepes and Godelieve Monden transcribed for their 10 strings guitars

  four

Partitas by Telemann, coming (as far as I can remember) from a
manuscript held in Warsaw.

No lute recording of those Partitas being available (at least to my
knowledge), the music would be more than interesting. At least one of
those used to be available from Schott, but in Yepes guitar

  transcription.


Are these the Partitas you mean?

Kindest regards,

Luca Manassero


[2]lute...@aol.com on 26-03-2009 16:33 wrote:

Dear Chris,

A belated 'thankyou' for your message below, and kind remarks --

  which are

much appreciated!

I'm writing because we've [we being Severinus] just had an enquiry

  about

Telemann's two works (TWV39: 1 and 2) for two lutes, two partitas in

  Bb

and G minor. Do you know of any edition(s)?

Let's hope we can do something with Mulliner ere the year's out.

Best wishes, as always,

Ian






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  --

References

  1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@manassero.net
  2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute...@aol.com
  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Telemann enquiry

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear All,

Many years ago I've heared (from a third hand) that Arthur Ness  
found a trace (or an actual source!) of a Lute Concerto by Telemann.  
How's about that, Arthur, if I may ask?


Regards,
Jurek

www.jerzyzak.eu/EN




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[LUTE] Re: Lost Berlin Manuscripts

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Luca,

Wouldn't it be more usefull to get hold of a younger publication?:
Dieter Kursch, Lenz Meierott (ed.) - Berliner Lautentabulaturen in  
Krakau, Schott 1992.


Leaving aside all the old legends from the pre-1980's, you'll get from  
the book detailed descriptions with incipits of all the Berlin  
tablatures now at the Jagiellonian Library. And they are no longer  
lost or kept in secret, you can order copies of all of them, as if  
they were in Berlin or anywhere in the world:


http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/index_en.php

Best,
Jurek
___


On 2009-04-06, at 21:28, Luca Manassero wrote:


Dear all,

  I have unsuccessfully tried to find a copy of the famous paper:

P. J. P. Whitehead, The Lost Berlin Manuscripts, in Notes, The  
Quarterly Journal of the Musical Library Association  (33)1976, pp.  
7-15


As you may know this article covers the interesting story concerning  
the collection of music manuscripts in the Jagellonian Library in  
Krakow, Poland, including lute manuscripts.
The article is (at least to me) impossible to get or buy, and  
therefore to read.

If someone has a way to help, please address the answer privately.

Thank you in advance,

Luca



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[LUTE] Re: Lost Berlin Manuscripts

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Luca,
A short list of them you can see here:
http://www-bnus.u-strasbg.fr/Smt/pl.htm
Jurek

--
Dear Luca,

Wouldn't it be more usefull to get hold of a younger publication?:
Dieter Kursch, Lenz Meierott (ed.) - Berliner Lautentabulaturen in  
Krakau, Schott 1992.


Leaving aside all the old legends from the pre-1980's, you'll get from  
the book detailed descriptions with incipits of all the Berlin  
tablatures now at the Jagiellonian Library. And they are no longer  
lost or kept in secret, you can order copies of all of them, as if  
they were in Berlin or anywhere in the world:


http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/index_en.php

Best,
Jurek
___


On 2009-04-06, at 21:28, Luca Manassero wrote:


Dear all,

 I have unsuccessfully tried to find a copy of the famous paper:

P. J. P. Whitehead, The Lost Berlin Manuscripts, in Notes, The  
Quarterly Journal of the Musical Library Association  (33)1976, pp.  
7-15


As you may know this article covers the interesting story concerning  
the collection of music manuscripts in the Jagellonian Library in  
Krakow, Poland, including lute manuscripts.
The article is (at least to me) impossible to get or buy, and  
therefore to read.

If someone has a way to help, please address the answer privately.

Thank you in advance,

Luca



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] sl weiss - on wiki

[Jerzy Zak]

Quite interesting...

By way of links leading to links etc, I came to the German language  
version of the SLWeiss entry on wikipedia and see there under  
Literatur that the two most important lexica on SLWeiss are Karl  
Prusik's Disertation of 1923 and Stadtlexikon Dresden A_Z of 1995.  
Quite funny, isn't it?


Of course the other language versions are much shorter with even less  
refined apparatus. In English, for exemple, we read that In later  
life, Weiss became a friend of Wilhelm Friedemann Bach... --  
interesting, really. I'd love to know a source for this expression.


But an English wiki says also something new to me on CPEBach: A few  
months later (armed with a recommendation by Sylvius Leopold Weiss)  
he obtained an appointment in the service of Frederick II of  
Prussia Here I'm really proud! By chance do you perhaps know  
where from it comes?


;-)))

J





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: sl weiss - on wiki

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2009-03-16, at 00:43, howard posner wrote:


On Mar 15, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Jerzy Zak wrote:


Of course the other language versions are much shorter with even
less refined apparatus. In English, for exemple, we read that In
later life, Weiss became a friend of Wilhelm Friedemann Bach... --
interesting, really. I'd love to know a source for this expression.


I suppose the source is the 1739 letter from Johann Elias Bach
about WF visiting his father's home from Dresden and bringing Weiss
and Kropffgans with him.  WFB and SLW must have known each other in
Dresden and become close enough that WF was comfortable giving an
invitation to the Leipzig Bach home, or SLW was comfortable asking to
come.


This epizode is widely known. And nothing else! Besides, Weiss was  
older by 23 years to WFBach (b.1710). I would rather imagine a  
friendship between WFB and Kropffgans (b.1708), but with SLW - ??


There is a painfull luck of documents concerning SLWeiss life,  
unfortunately, but that does not mean one can write - even in a  
pseudo-enciclopedic publication as Wikipedia - whatever comes under a  
pen. Why In later life when there is only one dated letter  
concerning one professional meeting? Why a friend when there is no  
trace of closer relations? I observe a tendency to such a historical  
fiction on Weiss even from distingushed authors (no names here)  
easly building their asumptions on another presumptions, fluentfly,  
almost imperceptibly... (like in a good enharmonic modulation ;-))


J


Or perhaps WF was a lute groupie.

I don't think JS Bach's son would have needed a recommendation from
anyone to get the attention of the Bach-loving Frederick the Great.
--

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Falckenhagen Concerti op3

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Jean-François and Andreas,

Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately the titles for both  
collections are very similar and easy to mess:


Sei Concerti à liuto, traverso oboe ò violino e violoncello…, Opera  
terza, Nürnberg, J.U. Haffner, 1743 (incomplete)
Sei Concerti a liuto, traverso, oboe ò violino e violoncello…, Opera  
nuova (op. 4), Nürnberg, J.U. Haffner (as you say, survived in full  
set).


As I traced, the first one (incomplete) is published in T 0638 Band  
4 and the second (complete one) in T 0638 Band 3 of the Domning  
series. I've found the information on the catalogue pages of the  
MUZIEKHANDEL SAUL B. GROEN online shop, which is very informative but  
so full of typografical errors, omissions and inconcistences that I  
never know which line or paragraf belongs to what.

http://www.saulbgroen.nl/cat/lutaz5.htm

But with this help I'm unfortunately unable to understand what  
concist of the other volumes of the Domning edition, that is for  
Hagen, Durant, etc.; see for exemple this:

http://www.saulbgroen.nl/cat/lutmis5.htm
http://www.saulbgroen.nl/cat/lutaz7.htm#H

I do have most of the sources on my old microfilms but always a doubt  
can ocur. In fact it's a pity Joachim Domning has no contents of the  
volumes he published on his web page, the same with Trekel-Verlag.


Regards,
J


On 2009-02-14, at 10:06, Andreas Schlegel wrote:


Dear Jurek

It's op. IV who is completely available in the facsimile edition
(collected works of Falckenhagen) edited by Joachim Domning (Trekel).
The op. III is stil incomplete as far I know.

Andreas

Am 14.02.2009 um 03:46 schrieb Jerzy Zak:


Dear All,

I thought the Falckenhagen Sei Concerti à liuto, traverso oboe ò
violino e violoncello, Opera terza, Nürnberg, J.U. Haffner, 1743,
survived incomplite, that is only the tablature is extant (by the
way, in Warsaw). Untill I've found this:
http://www.emecdiscos.com/home%20pages/014_15.htm

What's the matter???

J





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Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Falckenhagen Concerti op3

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear All,

I thought the Falckenhagen Sei Concerti à liuto, traverso oboe ò  
violino e violoncello, Opera terza, Nürnberg, J.U. Haffner, 1743,  
survived incomplite, that is only the tablature is extant (by the  
way, in Warsaw). Untill I've found this:

http://www.emecdiscos.com/home%20pages/014_15.htm

What's the matter???

J





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[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism

[Jerzy Zak]

I like your comment very much. I might only add that if the sound  
idea is ''before'' the instrument, then in between is the hand. So,  
to put it a bit facetiously, if one has a 'heavy hand'', the tension  
of strings, and therefore a hand position, is no problem... ;-))  
There is of course no logic or science behind it, but quite human  
observation.

J
___

On 2009-02-09, at 13:06, vance wood wrote:

Thank you for posting these images.  I have never had a comment on  
this subject before.  What do I know?  However; the Renaissance  
images confirm what I have always done, and not because the  
pictures say to do so but because the instrument sounds better if  
played somewhere a bit South of the center of the Rose.  I do not  
play Baroque Lute but I understand the general consensus is to play  
just North of the bridge, often with the little finger on or  
behind the bridge.  I think that the same result of it sounds  
better is the reason.  I think the probable reason is the tension  
of the strings.  I assume the strings on a Baroque Lute to be  
lighter in tension and would buzz, rattle and become muddy in sound  
if played closer to the Rose.  Playing closer to the bridge adds  
the effect of a higher tension to the strings.  Just my conjecture  
and means little---or maybe not, but I know of no one who has  
pointed this out.  The old proverb in discussions about who shot  
John is always followed by the proverb follow the money. When it  
comes to music I think the proverb should be, and probably is,  
follow the sound.


VW
- Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier  
jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr

To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:56 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism


May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand  
position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with  
iconographical evidence about that very same point. You will find  
it there :


for the renaissance :   http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html
for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html
for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html

I will let you choose your conclusion ;-))

Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 09-02-2009 11:45:05 ===


If all the pictures show us that the RH was at
the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing.

dt

At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote:

From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de

All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures
show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How
seriously should we take this? Barto


Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not
religiously, of course B)
Mathias

An unexpectedly Gallic opinion!
RT




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[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism

[Jerzy Zak]

Anthony,

I'm really fascinted by your detailed analyzis of all technicall  
matters concerning lute construction, stringing and playing. I wish I  
had such an eye on all this things. But in my experience, after some  
40 years of observations of teaching music playing (including my own  
regular education) I'm more and more incined to think that the  
deciding requirement in a good music peformance is... a talent. And a  
personal contact with a master. That was obvious in historical times  
and persist until now, despite all technologicall advance.


As all know, there are several methods of playing -- a historical  
one, a modern one (a post-modern one ;-))) and all in between. But  
aside from the method, a player needs a good ear and a complex  
musical inteligence which guides him how to get the most from his  
instrument (when he pics up another instrument he may finde that  
another method or place to place his fingers is better). An  
instantanous feed-back is a pre condition, like with a new car (or  
horse) which you are trying to bridle. After years you may develope a  
method which for you is good one, for others may not.


Bthat is becouse a method is not the case. I'm pretty sure past  
players played in a hudge variety of ways and we can only take very  
general guidelines from them. What guided them (the good ones of  
course) and shoud assist us, presently and always, is a musical end  
to which mastering of an instrument leads. What is this 'musical end'  
is a wide topic and can serve for another thread.


What I wanted to say is that inicially a player needs a master (or  
rather masters, as combination of some two particular people may not  
always work) and some kind and amount of musical talent. The rest of  
the way lies in his hands and ears, must fit to his body (or the  
other way arround) and be convincing to more then him. I'm simply  
against mythologisation of a method and believe in a unique human  
gift, which has been pushed aside in most discussions on HIP.


By the way...


I note that Satoh, is perhaps even further back (low tension), but
with with Gautier TO shape, see here, and also listen to the effect:
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TastingBaroque.html
http://tinyurl.com/2vxntm

Listen
http://tinyurl.com/2rsk5p


Am I wrong or not but all appogiaturas I hear are sharp  
''backwords'', not to say about other ''nuances''...



I am interested in acquiring a deeper undesrtanding of these issues,
not necessarily looking for a catechism.


Me too, only the balance matters.

J
__




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[LUTE] Re: Karamazov

[Jerzy Zak]

Karamazov and Dilettantism! Really fascinating. Is anybody brave  
enough to throw an exegesis on the combination? Is Karamazov a  
perversely hidden dilettante dressed up in attributes of great  
virtuoso or is he an evangelist of true and clean expression, just  
the instrument (a bit moded but still not enough) isn't perfect?  
Anyway, it's a case strong and human, beside of being a musical one.  
Several captions comes to mind on a long distance between master and  
hustler. One thing is certain -- he will provoke.


J
_

On 2009-02-08, at 17:49, Roman Turovsky wrote:

A difficult question, the loneliness at the top being poor excuse  
for elation.
I know for a fact that those Things of Beauty that Deviate from the  
Protocol do in fact get documentably appreciated. That surely helps  
to deal with the indifferent world.

RT


I tend to identify with
- Original Message - From: Alexander Batov  
alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com

To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov


It may well be exactly the case when the truth is depressing; but  
wouldn't it, at the same time, leave you feeling elated?

AB

- Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky  
r.turov...@verizon.net

To: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com
Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:43 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov



That would be too depressing to believe.
RT

From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com
Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe  
we're just

not that into him







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[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism

[Jerzy Zak]

Anthony,


On 2009-02-08, at 19:16, Anthony Hind wrote:

Indeed, there are signs that there were disagreements, between  
lutenists of past times.



About the practice of using Bologna lutes...



Some lutenists like Mace and Jacques Gautier, who seem to...



The description by Mace of J. Gautier showing...


We see that the king, and one of Jacques Gaultier's students bought  
these lutes, not Gaultier, himself, who...


While in Burwell, in contrast, we see a scathing attack on  
Gautier's 12c lute.


This makes me think that even then, there could be controversy  
between ancients and moderns...


Fantastic!!! I'd love to have all this in a book format. I think you  
are certainly able and qualified to do it. Anthony, please, write a  
handbook for lutenists. As for now, I'm struggling today for a bit of  
time to practice, as beside of having a good master and a talent, by  
all means one need a motivation for a hard work. Another truism (to  
annoy Roman ;-)).


Am I wrong or not but all appogiaturas I hear are sharp  
''backwords'', not to say about other ''nuances''...


I am afraid I have not quite understood this last remark, so I can  
not tell you whether you are mistaken or not.


This was seemingly out of this topic, but you've included the exemple  
here so I couldn't resist a reaction. But I should rather extract it  
and put into the ''French trill''.


To put it simple, evidently Satoh, a master for more then one  
generation of lute players, since some time in avant-guard of  
research on stringing, an icon of a ''new'' right hand approach to  
baroque technique, playes the basic French appogiatura (notated with  
a coma after a letter) in such a unorthodox way??? And I know, his  
students do the same.


You may take it as a critic, as I wolud do 5 or 25 years ago. But it  
is a wider thing. You can find questionable elements in playing of  
several people, including ''stars'', but in such cases it is never  
discused -- to delicate? Or perhaps it desn't matter, like single  
strung instruments, hybrids, toy-theorboes, prevailing renesans  
tuning on archlutes in most baroque continuo performances. etc, etc.


I think the EM movement once was a stroke of genius, but from the  
start it had a concealed virus (or more then one) -- an immanent  
conflict between historical evidence and common musical sens. Now it  
is to obvious and hundreds of HIP cases testify to this, every day.  
Let's be honest...


But I'd love to have your book on phisics of lute!
And I value your knowledge, immensaly.


Regards
Anthony


Jurek
___





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[LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill

[Jerzy Zak]

Quite funny -- Karamazov (by accident of course!) in context of  
dilettantism on the list now...

;-))
J


On 2009-02-07, at 09:55, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


;-) Honest, Roman ?

JM

=== 07-02-2009 01:48:26 ===



Musicality.
RT
- Original Message -
From: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de
To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Lutelist'
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:45 PM
Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill


At what?





jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
http://poirierjm.free.fr
07-02-2009




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[LUTE] Re: Haynes Book, was French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Excuse me, but are we talking about some rare forgotten curiosity of  
someones articulation or a term on par with vibrato, considering  
modern termonology. Until now I thought 'tremolo' is a fast  
repetition of one or two notes, as in scoring (orchestration/ 
instrumentation) for bowed strings, but also known as a 'guitar  
tremolo'.


I think, David shoud reply what he means.
Regards,
J
_

On 2009-02-05, at 09:23, Daniel Winheld wrote:


On 2009-02-04, at 21:30, David Tayler wrote:


BTW, the tremolo is more interesting than the vibrato in early
recordings. People stopped using it. And it sure sounds better
without it. I'd trade vibrato for tremolo any day. Nobody talks
about that, but it is the biggest single change in performance in
the 20th century.


Conchita Supervia- Spanish singer, 1895- 1936. Did some very
interesting things with her voice. Also had the ability to refrain
from doing them.


What is tremolo in singing or on melody instrument?
J







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[LUTE] Re: tremolo was Tench Frill

[Jerzy Zak]

David, you prevailed me, you are a true visionary.
J
__


On 2009-02-05, at 11:30, David Tayler wrote:

as strong as the rattle of dice in a box was the way it was  
described :)

dt

  At 12:23 AM 2/5/2009, you wrote:

On 2009-02-04, at 21:30, David Tayler wrote:


BTW, the tremolo is more interesting than the vibrato in early
recordings. People stopped using it. And it sure sounds better
without it. I'd trade vibrato for tremolo any day. Nobody talks
about that, but it is the biggest single change in performance in
the 20th century.


Conchita Supervia- Spanish singer, 1895- 1936. Did some very
interesting things with her voice. Also had the ability to refrain
from doing them.



What is tremolo in singing or on melody instrument?
J


--



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[LUTE] Re: players getting better--was Trench Fill

[Jerzy Zak]

Michal,
Welcome to the list!
J
__

On 2009-02-04, at 17:27, Michał Jasionowski wrote:


   2009/2/3 [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com

 Unfortunately for human society, the strongest, best,
 most sensible evolutionary advances in any field are
 hopelessly pitted against an even more powerful and
 ruthless force: fashion.
 Chris



   So maybe they just aren't the best ones? Also, the most adapted  
species
   die because they are more vulnerable to any change of  
environment. And

   for musicians changes in fashions means changes of environment.

   Michal






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[LUTE] Re: Haynes Book, was French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2009-02-04, at 21:30, David Tayler wrote:

BTW, the tremolo is more interesting than the vibrato in early  
recordings. People stopped using it. And it sure sounds better  
without it. I'd trade vibrato for tremolo any day. Nobody talks  
about that, but it is the biggest single change in performance in  
the 20th century.


What is tremolo in singing or on melody instrument?
J
_




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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

If it's still about ''French trill'', I'd insist -- it's ''ours  
trill'', however long would be someone's explanations and  
justifications.


Therefore the HIP performance is always ''modern'' or ''currant'' or  
''today'' (without going into the present day entangled terminology).  
In a way the Early Music World permanently tamper or fake the truth  
about the performance practice -- which is in reality inaccessible  
after 200 or 400 years -- everyday only pleasing our eclectic notion  
what ''was'' good at certain time.


Once, 30 or 50 or 70 years ago, it was a ''modern'' revolutionary  
approach (then ''modern music'', just based on old scores) in  
opposition to a ''traditional'', evolutionary or conservative  
attitude (however reaching for new scores)... Today it is largely  
commercialized and we are not asked what it is.


Another side. So called ''sources'', copies of instruments, strings,  
etc. are very atractive gadgets of strong historical foundation. But  
judges are we! The same people who by iPods.


Every year musicologists are bringing up a new crap on which they've  
been working for years and building their PhDs (Musicology seams very  
afirmative). Is it realy all what has patine worth playing? Is the  
''old music'' synonymous to ''good music'' ...without you super- 
active and creative participation? Today.


Have you ever uncovered, after some ''deconstruction'' work, that a  
familiar gem is not such a jewel, as you were taught for years. Is  
every French Menuet or entire Kellner or the so called ''early  
Weiss'' from, say, Harrah MS, or half of Falckenhagen or... (you name  
what) really worth your time, or it's only an atractive historical  
cookie for verbal mill?


So let's be honest? Is the early music old or new music?
And what are the implications?

J






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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

David T, David R,


On 2009-02-03, at 17:30, David Rastall wrote:


On Feb 3, 2009, at 1:19 AM, David Tayler wrote:


I'm old fashioned, I guess;  I think the old ways are better.


You mean your father and grandfather's or the Bocquet and Mouton way?  
As I'd objectively appreciate and trust the first solution (at last  
you should remember), I'd be much concerned about the second, as I  
know close to nothing.



We love to change the past in order to make it better.  Or so we
rationalize.  Didn't JS Bach add his own basso continuo to one of the
Palestrina masses.  Yikes!!!  But Bach himself, who I think had great
respect for the stile antico would have thought that he was
improving the piece by bringing it up to date.


A piece of music consist of an abstract structure and a performance  
in certain way. Bach, I suppose, did nothing to improve the abstract  
structure, just performed it his way, as continuo is a matter of  
''performance practice''.



The question is, what exactly were the old ways?  Did the old ones
play their allemandes and bourees with their local lute god's
fingering and ornament instructions propped up in front of them.  I
imagine they all did at first, but sooner or later one has to go
beyond the primer stage and get into the music on one's own terms.


This is simply at certain time and place a fashion of doing things  
one or the other way, like wearing jacket or a long coat. Often there  
is a guru who dictates it through his publications or popularity.  
Most follow him...



Segovia once likened all the rules and regulations involved in
learning music, as a scaffolding:  eventually the scaffolding has to
come down, and the building will then, hopefully, be able to stand on
its own...


We lived up to a time when computers can present such an abstract  
vision of a piece. But people, by nature, all the time dress it with  
something extra. We too, with our lutes, just differently then  
Segovia. Unfortunately we have no recording of Dowland and Sor ;-)  
Thus, there is no objective image of a piece+execussion, as there is  
no objective history -- we are creating it always anew. Sad?  
Inspiring? Dangerous?



I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a
whole book of deconstructionist.


Absolutely!  Deconstruction is temporary;  music is forever.


So you both think ''deconstruction'' as a method is bad. Hm, I wonder  
if we all think about the same. But I fear you are permanently  
deconstructing the music lying on your music stand and joining up  
together some way..., aren't you?



DR
dlu...@verizon.net


J
__




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Silvius Leopold W.

[Jerzy Zak]

I hope so.
Regards
J
_

On 2009-02-03, at 23:24, Markus Lutz wrote:


Hello Bernd and Jurek,
I only understand: Weiss, Grodkow, Jerzy Zak ...
So Grodkow now finally celebrates Weiss as son of the town, isn't it?

Best regards
Markus


Bernd Haegemann schrieb:
Wow, while we are talking ..others are already making an idol of  
SLW :-)
http://www.nto.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/ 
POWIAT05/92517093Template=printpicart To get on or off this list  
see list information at

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--

Markus Lutz
Schulstraße 11

88422 Bad Buchau

Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

Homepages
http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss)






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[LUTE] Re: SLW, again

[Jerzy Zak]

No
J
_

On 2009-02-04, at 00:18, Edward Martin wrote:


Is there an English translation?

ed

At 11:05 PM 2/3/2009 +0100, Jerzy Zak wrote:


--===AVGMAIL-4988C134===
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It is absolutely mad and crazy text, I have never said such
stupidities as the author relates. I see one has to be extremaly
carefull about those gazetteers of popular local papers. But all in
all they generated a positive movement arround Weiss and the lute. Of
course this is the strongest theory that Weiss was born in Grottkau/
Grotkow, close to certainty, but future will have to prove it still.

J
_

On 2009-02-03, at 22:44, Bernd Haegemann wrote:


that was the print version, here is the whole newspaper :-)

http://www.nto.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/
POWIAT05/92517093






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[LUTE] Re: SLW, again

[Jerzy Zak]

It is absolutely mad and crazy text, I have never said such  
stupidities as the author relates. I see one has to be extremaly  
carefull about those gazetteers of popular local papers. But all in  
all they generated a positive movement arround Weiss and the lute. Of  
course this is the strongest theory that Weiss was born in Grottkau/ 
Grotkow, close to certainty, but future will have to prove it still.


J
_

On 2009-02-03, at 22:44, Bernd Haegemann wrote:


that was the print version, here is the whole newspaper :-)

http://www.nto.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/ 
POWIAT05/92517093




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[LUTE] French trill + New thrill

[Jerzy Zak]

OK, then live music is always (?) fresh and ''currant'' (instead of  
''modern''), whatever you'd say about its origin or background.


Now, concerning the ''replication of the past'' versus ''continuation  
of the school'', don't you think that since long -- perhaps 20 or 30  
years -- lutemakers basically stopped making exact replicas and are  
rather making new lutes, however of course, based on several  
principals what they think is ''a good lute'' or ''a good theorbo''  
ct...


But is there now any luteplayer, virtuoso and composer, who is able  
to continue, too, the tradition of creating and performing his new  
(or at least processed old) ricercars, sonatas, allemades, waltzes,  
tangos, sambas... as idiomatic lute compositions?, and people are  
buying his CD like their newly ordered lutes based on...


J
___

On 2009-02-02, at 11:31, Mark Wheeler wrote:
I am always very uneasy about using the word Modern; it is a term  
that by

its nature is destined to be out of date very quickly.

Thank (fill in you own imagined deity) we live in a post-modern  
world...





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[LUTE] Re: Old Satoh Vinyl Recording

[Jerzy Zak]

Becouse people quite often don't hear while listening. But if you'll  
tell them you are playing on gut, then it is entirely different story.

J
___

On 2009-02-02, at 19:28, howard posner wrote:


How do gut strings mask incompetence?


However gut has been used lately to mask various forms/degrees of
incompetence.







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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

The problem is, it is a long note and a simple ''shake/trill''  
concisting of three notes (as one can surmise from Mersenne twisting  
description) biginning from the main note, is not enough. It is a  
long note and long notes invite something extra, something special.


The well known Lacrimae by JD also in some sources begins with an  
ornamental sign on the third of its first chord (it is also a doted  
crochet). Does the Bocquet's Allemande (1640-1680) belongs to the  
earlier performance tradition (lets call it Dowland-Mersenne) or to  
the later one (say Brossard-Mouton)?


I think it may be a question of our very personal taste and stylistic  
preference. Each style, to be rendered convincingly, needs to be  
very, very familiarized with it. A quick, intensive research is not  
enough. Sometime an answer to a tiny problem is somewhere between  
lines, to be rediscovered through years, and most refinements are  
permanently lost. Ornamentation is such a refinement.


But lets not forget about ouerseves. Here and Now! We can not only  
keep reproducing the lost art, but also continue the ''school'' and  
bring forward new refinements. In fact sometinme it can be the only  
feasible thing, however some will insiste to call it HIP.


J
___



Simple shake (simplified):

.4   1   2 2 2 2 2 2  (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver)
---|-a--#e-e-|
-a-|-a-r-a-r-a-r'--a-|
---|-a---|
---|-a---|
---|-|
---|-|
. ///a

Shake preceded by appogiatura (simplified):

.4   2 1   2 2 2 2 2 2  (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver)
---|---a--#e-e-|
-a-|-r-a-r-a-r'--a-|
---|-a-|
---|-a-|
---|---|
---|---|
. ///a

Mathias






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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Andreas,


On 2009-02-01, at 18:50, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

Here's what Denis Gaultier (or M.de Montarcis) wrote as last  
comment in rule 7 in the Livre de tablature (in French - for  
English translation see the article of Jorge Torres in the recent  
LSA Journal):
... mais il faut observer que chacun peut ménager ces especes d  
agreements, selon la nature du chant de la piece et du mouvement.


What in the Torres translation reads: ''...But it must be observed  
that everyone can treat these kinds of ornaments, according to the  
nature of the piece’s melody and its tempo (mouvement).''
What now it may sound like: ...listen to the music arround and look  
how people are singing and playing similar passages; but if in doubt,  
come to my place, it's Rue de Vaugirard 7...''


But it was over 330 years ago, alas... Such is the ''precise nature''  
of historical sources. We'd now need a cold technical instruction,  
which is hard to find. But even if it is somewhere, it's still not  
enough. It's music, and one needs and Artist to bring it to life  
again. He puts his stemp on it, which for some is a new religion, for  
others unacceptable.


These are paradoxes of the so called historical music.

J
___


Andreas

Am 01.02.2009 um 17:52 schrieb Jerzy Zak:

The problem is, it is a long note and a simple ''shake/trill''  
concisting of three notes (as one can surmise from Mersenne  
twisting description) biginning from the main note, is not enough.  
It is a long note and long notes invite something extra, something  
special.


The well known Lacrimae by JD also in some sources begins with an  
ornamental sign on the third of its first chord (it is also a  
doted crochet). Does the Bocquet's Allemande (1640-1680) belongs  
to the earlier performance tradition (lets call it Dowland- 
Mersenne) or to the later one (say Brossard-Mouton)?


I think it may be a question of our very personal taste and  
stylistic preference. Each style, to be rendered convincingly,  
needs to be very, very familiarized with it. A quick, intensive  
research is not enough. Sometime an answer to a tiny problem is  
somewhere between lines, to be rediscovered through years, and  
most refinements are permanently lost. Ornamentation is such a  
refinement.


But lets not forget about ouerseves. Here and Now! We can not only  
keep reproducing the lost art, but also continue the ''school''  
and bring forward new refinements. In fact sometinme it can be the  
only feasible thing, however some will insiste to call it HIP.


J
___



Simple shake (simplified):

.4   1   2 2 2 2 2 2  (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver)
---|-a--#e-e-|
-a-|-a-r-a-r-a-r'--a-|
---|-a---|
---|-a---|
---|-|
---|-|
. ///a

Shake preceded by appogiatura (simplified):

.4   2 1   2 2 2 2 2 2  (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver)
---|---a--#e-e-|
-a-|-r-a-r-a-r'--a-|
---|-a-|
---|-a-|
---|---|
---|---|
. ///a

Mathias







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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, the paradox concernes us, creators and consumers of music  
and our vision of the modern phenomenon called ''historical music''.  
It is a fancy interplay between science and art, it's a modern thing  
in music history -- isn't it?, and in a way quite logically it's  
''modern music'' as well, however strange it may sound to all.


J
___

On 2009-02-01, at 20:12, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
I agree, Jerzy, but isn't it rather the paradox(es) of so called  
historical musicians ...???

Jean-Marie   ;-)
=== 01-02-2009 19:38:37 ===


These are paradoxes of the so called historical music.
J






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[LUTE] Re: French trill

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Mathias,


On 2009-02-01, at 00:23, Mathias Rösel wrote:


Dear Jerzy,

checking the source would be great, but unfortunately I share your
plight, not owning a copy or facsimile of Vm7 6214. I have to rely on
the CNRS edition.

I wasn't familiar with the dating by Rave. The sisters Bocquet
flourished during the 1640ies, so there are some 30 years between this
copy and its possible authors. 30 years of change in style and
aesthetics...

I wasn't looking for the one and only appropiate execution of commas.


The one and only appropiate execution shouldn't exist in music, and  
best if we end up with different solutions! For the welfare of United  
Colours of B... aroque Music.



I'm suspicious that what I was actually looking for, was some support
for the execution of commas as simple trills.


Here is a salvation:
If the music was by or for the Bocquets, then Mersenne (1635/6)  
solves the problem. In an English translation (Martinus Nijhoff /The  
Hague 1957 /repr. 1964) on page 107 he says:


IV. On the ornamentation.
………
Now the one which is formed in this fashion: , is called “shake”  
ordinarily, and most people use no other character to express all the  
different sorts [[JZ: sic!, meaning both upper and lower auxiliary,  
with two or more notes?]]; that is why I have not wished to change  
it, since it is familiar to everyone, so as not to use any novelty if  
it is not useful. But there are still other ornamentations which they  
call _accens plaintifs_, _martelemens_, _verves cassez_, and  
_battemens_, as we shall see at the end of this treatise. [[JZ: now -- 
]] As for the first marked by this comma and used on the open  
string, it is necessary to consider two things for executing it well,  
that is, that the finger tip of the left hand, which ought to make  
this ornamentation, be well upon the string on which it is to be made  
and that the finger not be lifted from above the sad string, so that  
one perceives only that it has been played by the right hand. [...]
If this ornamentation is found at another letter than an a as is  
seen here, the first finger of the left hand must [...] be place  
above the fret d, [...] and form the ornamentation of the little  
finger above the fret f. [...]


For me it is a clear description of your simple trill starting from  
the main note. However I personally don't like the word trill which  
is for me a modern passkey for to great variety of historical  
ornaments. But I have no access to original Latin or French. I cut  
out all Mersennes painfull divagations whether to play one or two  
semiton second in the ornament.


But now, in the light of this, I'd have another problem -- what to do  
with the next note (only melodic), also with the come after it. Shall  
we play too a simple trill or appogiatura from above (which I never  
liked in such situations) or perhaps from below, if Mersenne allowes  
the coma to express all the different sorts of ornaments -- ?


But if the source is late (say 1680) and the ornamental signs are  
from Brossard rather (or understood his way) then I wouldn't be quite  
sure about the simple trill from the main note. Now maybe DGautier,  
Gallot or Mouton is a better prompter -- ?


And what if a piece be called La Belle Homicide and found in the  
Augsburg fantastic JBHagen Collection, what is actually the case with  
the Beautifull Criminal -- ?!


A Horror !!! We'd have to study Leopold Mozart.

Not as a rule, and by far not at all places. Just e. g. with the  
opening

chord of allemande #7. I was seeking liberation from the rule that
baroque trills, and French baroque trills in particular, are always to
be preceded by appogiature.


If I remember well, this splinter sits in the a.. from the beginning  
of modern research on historicall ornamentation. There are people who  
cannot imagine a baroque trill without an appogiatura from above or  
below. On the other side perhaps is Frederick Neumann (Ornamentation  
in baroque and post baroque music: With Special Emphasis on J. S.  
Bach, 1983) who's shown good number of very nice exceptions and in  
fact, for some, definitely broke the magic rule.



With that opening chord, an appogiatura on the root would obscure and
confuse the recognition of the key. And that's not what ornaments are
generally supposed to serve as.


As much as I like Neumann, I personally enjoy obscuring and  
confusing ;-) and in such a simplistic music as this, in a way, the  
flourishes and other personalities would for me be the last weapon  
to ...bring it to life. But this is only me.



some sort of ornamental dissonace at the very begining. At the first
chord of your Allemande (7) section B, there is also
'something' (inverted mordent?) which creates 'harmonic confusion'.
Similar coma at the first chord have also the Sarabande (18) and
'Autre facon' (19)... ct.


With these two, I have less difficulties, as the comma affects the 5th
above the root. If executed as an appogiatura, the 

[LUTE] Re: French trill

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Mathias,

So lets to the point and your Allemande.

I don't pretend my method is right but if I'd have such a problem for  
the first time I'd first chack the source as I do not always trust  
the CNRS editions wich I just catched.The volume was published in  
1972, the 'Tableau des signes de doigtés et d'ornements' is probably  
exhaustive for the volume's content but as far as the 'comas' are  
concerned largely insuficient if not missleading.


From the same year is the indispensable W. Rave 'Some manuscripts of  
French lute music 1630-1700..., PhD at University of Illinois. Rave  
dates the manuscript Vm7 6214, from which the Allemande comes, as  
between 1672 and 1680, links its ownership and hand to Seb. de  
Brossard Collection. Besides of pieces of both Gautiers and few  
others, it is a unic source of 31 works by 'Boquet' which are found  
nowhere else. So the Allemande (CNRS no. 7) is unic and one cannot  
chack any other version by another scrib, alas.


The claster of works by 'Bocquet' is specially interesting for the  
inclusion of 18 'preludes marquants les cadances bq.' with the  
'Prelude sur tous les tons' as the most remarkable of these pieces. I  
smell a person of refined harmonic tast in Mr or Miss 'Bocquet' ...or  
perhaps Brossard as the scribe who notated someone's improvisations.


I don't have the MS -- which seams to be extremely interesting and  
I'd love to have a copy -- but the CNRS edition gives some overal  
impression. Most of the 'Bocquet' pieces, beside of Preludes, have  
some sort of ornamental dissonace at the very begining. At the first  
chord of your Allemande (7) section B, there is also  
'something' (inverted mordent?) which creates 'harmonic confusion'.  
Similar coma at the first chord have also the Sarabande (18) and  
'Autre facon' (19)... ct.


If I play it, I would have absolutely no objection against the  
appogiatura. It's the most harsh in the collection but still  
idiomatic. And the source (the MS) is most probably trustworthy.


Now, the whole ornamentation problem in this style of LUTE music is  
quite complicated matter, as it is not only 'from above or below'  
but... u, wolud be a long, long letter. Besides, we have to  
remember, the music have to please, not cause a headache, even the  
'historical music'  ;-))


Jurek
_


On 2009-01-30, at 14:03, mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote:


   Dear Jerzy,

   it's amazing to me, indeed, how a baroque piece that starts with  
a 7th

   in the opening chord, comes to your mind just like that.


As you asked David, I'll refrain from answering that particular

   questio.

   I didn't mean to ask David Tayler exclusively because I prefer open
   discussions rather than dialogues, and, second, David is not the  
only

   expert on this subject.

   Mathias






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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear David and All,

Strange discussion or rather no dscussion...

It's good point about today preference for a short appogiatura among  
lutenists playing baroque music. Very often it sounds as if a  
luteplayer were playing those small notes in Giuliani or Carulli ;-))  
I don't know if it's reluctance to read historical sources or an  
inert attachment to still alieve a simplified (!) XIXth C. musical  
language.


But of course the ''baroque appogiatura'' is not only the long one --  
there are places for a shor one too, but applied properly to the  
context [... some are written out]


With appogiatura there is also a problem of an ''on beat'' or ''befor  
beat'' one. Monteclair and other French ''general'' writers mention  
both, and they have basically different harmonic implications, what  
is obvious. Both are vital for melody instruments and singing (plus  
perhaps harpsichord) but here lutenists are faced with a problem --  
as the ''before beat'' type is almost impossible or a very tricky  
one, beside of places of puraly monodic/melodic character.


But there is a whole range of other ornamentation devices, besides of  
appogiatura (which is however a basic ingredient of many) and most  
lutenists are theoreticaly well aware of them. For the earlier part  
of the period sufice to remember of Mersenne or Mace [...], for later  
obviously German sources with ''probably'' Felckenhagen in the  
centre, not entirely removed from the French practices, I think. The  
number of signs we see speaks for itself but it's probaby a tiny  
representation of what was ''in fassion'' (!) at certain place and  
times. Not only LONG or SHORT appogiatura for 150 or so years on the  
whole European Continent plus Brittain and Colonies ct... And lets  
not forget about ornamenting with rythm (inequality) or dynamics  
(forte-piano, ...) or other articulation or agogical or formal  
devices (petit reprise, ...).


Of course ALL it's lost. For ever. Now we can only gess or propose  
learned or inspired solutions, providing we are not lazy and try to  
forget the famous ''one-note'' grace-notes ala Giuliani (as by some  
famous... ;-)).


David gave good starting point. Now lets concentrate on the ''French  
trill''.


J
_


On 2009-01-29, at 13:37, David Tayler wrote:


Dear Jean-Marie,
Thanks for you detailed response.

I would be happy to refute your points one by one, but my main
point--in fact my only point, really--
that everyone is playing the ornament backwards, is the one you  
don't discuss.







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[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

Mathias,
As you asked David, I'll refrain from answering that particular  
questio. But something not so far removed comes to my mind. Some of  
you may know the famous French work by Jean-Féry Rebel, namely Les  
elemens and its first part, Le Cahos. Here you can clik and listen  
to the first chord of it:

http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=640583
The French were really full of imagination as far as the harmony  
(sonority?) is concerned.

Best,
Jurek



On 2009-01-29, at 22:38, Mathias Rösel wrote:


There is no argument concerning the duration of an appogiatura, I
suppose. One half with even value, at least two thirds with odd value.

My question, however, was if there should be an appogiatura at all.
There is that opening measure e. g. of Bocquet's allemande #7 (Vm7  
6214

fol. 5)

.2   31  1 1 1  1
---|-a---#e-e-|
-a-|-a'---r'---a--|
---|-a|
---|-a|
---|--|
---|--|
. ///a

If you execute the first comma as an appogiatura, you'll have a  
ninth on

the opening chord of that piece. Does that seem right to you?

Mathias

David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb:

Shorter DT:
We are playing it backwards. The sources agree, the music agrees.
You can see the differences, including the
changed harmonies and changed position of the trill itself:

http://voicesofmusic.org/trill.html

Note that this is one example, there are a
thousand ways to play this trill, but they mainly have this long  
appogiatura.

I prefer the 2/3rds rule, but there are different
ways to do Long Short, as long as it isn't Short Long.
I look at this as a fantastic opportunity to be
on the cutting edge, and the music sounds
radically different when performed in this way.

Skip the rest. It's dull.

Long version:

I only mention the Monteclair because it is so
readily available, and explains the key points.
I think that for most of the basic things, that
is fine. It is translated into English, and so on.
Experts will always prefer the primary
sources--mainly the music itself. Most people
will not want to read twenty books when they can
look at one eight page document.

Basically, when applying French ornamentation you
are looking at the multiple sources for the
theory, and then the multiple sources for the practice.
For example, any ornamentation chart can be derived from the  
doubles

The process is simple, you identify the interval,
look in the double, paste it into the chart. The
composers have left thousands of clear examples.
If you don't want to use primary sources, you can
rely on premixed recipes, such as the article in the Grove,
In other words, the ornaments can be reverse
engineered. The sources are easily reconciled.

Brouderie is too big a topic to go into here. I
don't think of it as colloquial, however. It is
essential for playing lute music, and probably is
related to earlier English and French styles.

To say that the lute players differ from the
mainstream is an interesting idea, but I look at it differently.
Since most of the ornaments are written out in
the doubles, using primary sources, one can see what the ornaments  
really are.

We can then see if the music is different.
And then you can say, well, there few examples of
this kind of lute ornamnent in French music. The
lute players were trying to be different.
However, I don't see that. In fact, if you look
at ornamentation charts they tend to be
exhaustive--they cover almost all of the ways to get from note A  
to note B.

Even the unmeasured preludes cover most of the ornamnents.
But if you have looked at all the doubles, all
the cadences, all the brouderie and say the lute
ornaments are different, I would be very interested in the work.
And then, we would know for sure--it would not be
speculation. I've looked at thousands of these
pieces--I'm always struck by the similarities.

The real question revolves around the
appogiatura: is everyone playing it backwards? Is
it Sdrawkcab? And the answer is, yes. And here I
cited Monteclair because most sources agree that
the appogiatura is long--specifically 1/2 or 2/3 the note length.
And in the performance of lute solos, lute
players invariably perform these notes shorter
than that--much shorter. In fact, 1/3 or less
than the note length. And that is backwards, like
a Scotch snap. Or a French snap, since they had it is well.

I don't really care--I think people can play the
solos however they want. If you have read all the
primary sources, if you have looked at the
doubles, cadences  brouderie, and you say, you
know, I just prefer to play it backwards, fine.
Play it backwards.
But I don't really think that is the case. I
think this is simply a modern tradition and no
one wants to change it--it is harder on the lute
to play the appogiaturas longer, and you have to
study the voice leading as well. It is slightly more work.
Few people will do it; the best players will
solve the technical problems--they 

[LUTE] Re: French trill?

[Jerzy Zak]

An answer to Mathias question is still to come -- I said that.

But the well-ordered French universe, as well as any other European  
baroque music universe is permanently beeing 'devastated' -- isn't  
it? -- by all the expected or unexpected appogiaturas creating 4ths,  
7ths or 9ths. It's their role: to surprise or astonish... Like in  
Rebel, perhaps.


J


On 2009-01-29, at 23:49, howard posner wrote:

Rebel's Cahos is not really to the point, since it is a depiction  
of primordial Chaos.  Mathias was questioning a dissonance that was  
presumably intended for the composer's well-ordered French universe.


On Jan 29, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Jerzy Zak wrote:

Some of you may know the famous French work by Jean-Féry Rebel,  
namely Les elemens and its first part, Le Cahos. Here you can  
clik and listen to the first chord of it:

http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=640583
The French were really full of imagination as far as the harmony  
(sonority?) is concerned.






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[LUTE] Re: Bach Telemann

[Jerzy Zak]

David,
Can you give the TWV numbers for Telemann, like there are BWV for Bach?
J
___


On 2009-01-24, at 09:33, David Tayler wrote:


My new CD is up on Magnatune--as always, free to listen!
dt
http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/voicesofmusic-bachtelemann/






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Thirteen Course Conundrum

[Jerzy Zak]

Dale,

Excuse me, please, but what is 'RPGR' ?

On 2009-01-11, at 02:01, Dale Young wrote:

Let's go through pictures and writings about who was playing which  
lute when and see if we can come to any conclusion why. Maybe a  
musical style favoured one instrument over the other.Maybe they  
were on contract for a builder who preferred one.
 From my memory (being what it is) : Baron 1720ish (12c.?)  reflex  
pegbox with rider (RPGR), Weiss BOTH 1720ish, Hoffman 1730ish RPGR,


What picture of Hoffman 1730ish?


Kaspersky 1730 RPGR,


What is 'Kaspersky 1730'


Falckenhagen 1740ish theorbo-lute (TL),


The one with single strings (!) ?

Front piece to Falckenhagen's 1740 concerti, published by Hoffman,  
with Mercury holding RPGR ,


On my (very bad) reproduction there is a lute but in the backgroud  
and the quality of the drawing cannot serve any comparison.



Kohaut 1760ish RPGR,


You mean Wenzel Joseph Kohaut, presumably in France?


Scheidler 1780ish TL, Straube 1780ish TL.


Where is that Straube picture???


 Anyone, anyone...Help me here...


Both Jan Kupecky's pictures -- Count Questenberg and A man playing a  
lute c1711 -- shows 11-ch lute.

I have no other ideas…

Jurek
_


dale






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Jorge and others,

Years ago I've placed the question of binary and ternary GIGUES on  
this list (11th Dec. 2003) and the discussion wasn't much conclusive  
then, I must say - you can read it in the archive.


On 2008-12-29, at 16:22, Jorge Torres wrote:

Dear list:
A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue.

1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time  
signature given.


In the whole Mouton book there are no time signatures (including  
copies in Milleran).



They are probably both in Binarie mineur or cut time or 2/2,


Funny names - where from are they?

again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue  
in his pieces, p. 16-19.  This makes a huge difference in the way  
we would play them.


In most cases Perrine changes pairs of eights into a doted pair,  
which in turn can mean in performance inegale playing - doesn't it?


2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost  
indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an  
allemande and a gigue in his pieces, p. 16-19


almost indistinguishable in notation, but not in performance, of  
course…


3)  There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be  
played very fast.


There is at all no evidence how these gigues _should_ be played. Even  
an advice from an experienced historical dance specialist is of  
little use, as these are purely instrumental chamber private social  
(!) reminiscences of the dance.


4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm  
(6/8 or 12/8).  The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the  
canarie


The French had ternary Courante, Menuet, Sarabande, Canarie…, why not  
also a Gigue? Each of them is different, also a Gigue. But only a  
Gigue causes so much problems becouse of the varied way of notating  
it. Only in one book of Reusner (1676) there are four ways of writing  
it down: in 4/4, 3/8, 3/4, 3/2. Who can explain the misterious  
diferences in perfomance? The French were even less explicite in  
notation, as is generally known.


5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces,  
but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the  
rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems  
pedantic to me.


That seems to you, perhaps the other way may seem to me, still  
someone can feel it slighty different… That's not the way to  
justify your point here. If you appeare on stage (not youtube) before  
a non-casual audience you take the responsibility of you  
interpretative choices. There you have a chance to be an Artist with  
your intuition.


Here we are speculating verbally and are trying to find hard  
evidence, …but even on the territory of keyboard research (see e.g. a  
discussion on Froberger:

http://sscm-jscm.press.uiuc.edu/v13/no1/schulenberg.html#_edn59
- f.58, and other links on the Society's page) there is no egreement  
what to do with the 4/4 specimen.


Are there some news on the subject?
Yours,
Jurek
___



All the best,
Jorge Torres

On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:


I would imagine it could be binary.


Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are  
gigues in

4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship
discernible between the pieces of master and student in that both  
gigues

have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic
pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e. with
the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat. That repeated bass  
note

even being a 4 in both pieces (notwithstanding that it means B with
Gaultier, C sharp with Mouton).

With what I heard with Froberger gigues transferred to these 4/4  
gigues,

you would play them extremely inegale, IOW amounts of crotchets as
sharpened ternary units. Gaultier seems to indicate that way of  
playing

by stating rhythm more precisely in each one but last measure of both
halves of his gigue.

Still, would you perform Tocsin as loud and fast as possible, i. e.
raising connotations of alarm? Mouton seems to indicate something of
that kind by using means of chromatic escalation at the  
conclusions of

the 1st half.

Mathias


Tocxin is tocsin in both French and English, an alarm bell which is
musically depicted by the repeated bass notes.

My former question was concerned with tempo. If it is agreed that
alarm
bells would usually be chimed as loud and fast as possible in  
case of
emergency, was the gigue which bears that name supposed to be  
played

that way, too?
It's a sequel, so to say, of a short discussion that we had in
December
2003 (Re: binary and ternary GIGUES).

Mathias


Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb:

Damian
Sonner le tocsin, meant roughly to ring a peal of warning
bells , but could also mean the bell used for such a warning.  
This
would have come from earlier touquesain from Provencal  
tocaseneh.

It seems that tocar (or toquer), distantly 

[LUTE] Re: schmeltzer chaconne

[Jerzy Zak]

Timo,

But in case you are looking rather for the J.G. Muffat's beautiful  
Passacaglia in A major, the only copy I know of is in A-KR L 83, p.  
(or f.) 89.


Best,
Jurek
-


On 2008-11-18, at 18:53, Peedu Timo wrote:

No, it isn't, but thanks for everybody for leading me to very  
beautiful pieces.


Best wishes,
Timo



Lähettäjä: dc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Lähetetty: ti 18.11.2008 15:30
Vastaanottaja: Lutelist
Aihe: [LUTE] Re: schmeltzer chaconne



Roman Turovsky écrit:

#4 has the Chaconne.
http://www.lysator.liu.se/~tuben/scores/schunfid/4unafid.pdf


None of these have the Ciaconna I believe Timo is after, if it's  
the one on

Hélène Schmitt's recording.

You can listen to an excerpt of it here:

http://www.amazon.fr/Johann-Heinrich-Schmelzer-Sonatae-Violino/dp/ 
B000PHX8LQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=musicqid=1227014725sr=1-1


or here

http://musique.fnac.com/a1979497/Johann-Heinrich-Schmelzer-Sonatae- 
a-violino-solo-CD-albumhttp://musique.fnac.com/a1979497/Johann- 
Heinrich-Schmelzer-Sonatae-a-violino-solo-CD-album


Dennis







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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-10-25, at 13:57, G. Crona wrote:


- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED]


V.A. Coelho, Authority, Autonomy, and Interpretation in Seventeenth-
Century Italian Music, in: _Performance on the Lute, Guitar and
Vihuela_, ed. by V.A. Coelho, Cambridge University Press 1997.
There you should find more on the entire subject.


Indeed you should! This interesting article seems to timely draw  
together

... Highly recommended reading, (as is the whole book).
G.


Realy, highly recommended book, in many respects. I only cannot  
understand why from a list of topics, ranging from the earliest lute  
manuscripts to the 19th C. classical guitar, the German lute,  
including Weiss, his predecessors and the 18th C. followers was  
entirely untouched. A very puzling question to me, but perhaps  
symptomatic of that selective tendency.


J
___





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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

Mathias,
My post was only techincally glued to your reply, I know you are into  
the baroque lute.


On 2008-10-24, at 12:12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


One can buy Weiss or Logi on an archlute if it's for fun or pleasure.
Equally well one can try Pulenc on theorbo or Kapsperger on modern
harp, or Gershwin on balalaika


   That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Italian lutenists like
   Zamboni or dalla Casa were contemporaneous to Weiss and Logy,  
Weiss had

   been to Rome for quite a while and had started his carreer there. I
   simply wanted to know to what extend music by Logy or Weiss in
   tablatures for D minor tuning is specific to that tuning


But I've never heared of anybody trying, say, Gianoncelli (1650) on d- 
m lute, despite Julien Blovin, the famous French lute teacher activ  
in Italy, or Zamboni, however he lived almost contemporary to the so  
called Polinski's MS with an inscribtion Venetijs. 7. 7br. 1712.  
Quite feasible, isn't it? - but I've never heared of this kind of  
experiments (perhaps of myself ;-))



But why the real baroque lute is such a black sheep


   Would you agree with me, then, that there are at least four  
distinct

   black sheep?
 * 11c French
 * 12c double headed (much of the repertoire French, again)
 * 13c bass rider
 * 13c swan neck


Not realy much distinct, concidering the tuning.


Why the few maniacs only use baroque lute tuning for a
continuo, in the age the instrument was born and used?


   Not sure if I got your point right, but didn't Benjamin Narvey  
recently
   make a strong case in favour of HIP continuo playing in D minor  
tuning.
   Besides that, there still are the Fundamenta der Lautenmusique,  
an 18th

   century=A0tutor for continuo playing in D minor tuning.


Benjamin Nervey is one of the few noble individuals of whom I was  
thinking. And the Fundamenta, plus Perrine print, the Wienna MS and  
others makes me thinking that in fact there is more real pedagogical  
material - that is hard proof from the period - for continuo practice  
on the d-m tuning, then on other lutes -)) Paradox?


Jurek


   Mathias




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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

Matthias,

On 2008-10-24, at 12:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  I do like accompanying a singer though.
  RT

 Here you are, though you don't like it: H Albert, G Voigtländer,  
J.H.

 Schein, H. Schütz, Ch Bernhard, A. Krieger, J. Rist, T Selle, A
 Hammerschmidt, J Nauwach, C Ch Dedekind,  J Kremberg, Ph.H.  
Erlebach,

 G.Ph. Telemann, J.V. Görner, J.A. Hasse, J.S. Scholze
 (Sperontes),. not to mention all the less known further east,
 survived or not.


Some of the best baroque lied composers, indeed, but I cannot see  
their connection to the lute (except for Jakob Kremberg, of course,  
whom I shouldn't see among the first of that order, though).

Mathias


The connection is the simplest posiible - these are continuo songs,  
most probably for home use, small audience, private entertainment,  
like solo lute music of the period, from Reusner to Hagen. Do all the  
people then had two instruments at home, and the other one for  
continuo was obligatory an archlute or big theorbo??? Nonsense!


Jurek





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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

Roman,

On 2008-10-24, at 14:50, Roman Turovsky wrote:

Jurek,
There is considerable difference of how music is heard by its  
participants

vs. how it is heard by listeners.


That's the paradox. We today removed this music from it's original  
milieu and put it on the modern concert platform, on which it most  
often creates consternation or at least sonic problems. Of course,  
the smaller the venue the better.


My perspicacity tells that all this ensemble music was clearly  
intended to be heard just by the participants, with or without very  
few guests. Moving this music into our typical venues renders the  
lute inaudible.


You mean, typical _modern_ venue, I understand. Salvation is in  
phonography perhaps, as the Radolt CD prompts.


One of course could bring in causa Lutz Kirchhoff's efforts, but  
his [athletic] approach to the lute in ensemble circumstances is  
not a pretty listen.


Lutz and several of us are permanently trying to find their own  
solution to the problem, which today is probably unsovable in 100%.


But I havn't heared any complains when a trio of a singer, lute and  
gamba are glorifying the Dowland's name. To be honest, to my ears the  
lute is almost inaudible in such setting, and discussions about  
poliphony of it's part or consecutive fifths is aimless. Very often  
even without gamba.


J
__


RT
- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:47 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute


Matthias,

On 2008-10-24, at 12:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  I do like accompanying a singer though.
  RT

 Here you are, though you don't like it: H Albert, G Voigtländer,
J.H.
 Schein, H. Schütz, Ch Bernhard, A. Krieger, J. Rist, T Selle, A
 Hammerschmidt, J Nauwach, C Ch Dedekind,  J Kremberg, Ph.H.
Erlebach,
 G.Ph. Telemann, J.V. Görner, J.A. Hasse, J.S. Scholze
 (Sperontes),. not to mention all the less known further east,
 survived or not.


Some of the best baroque lied composers, indeed, but I cannot see   
their

connection to the lute (except for Jakob Kremberg, of course,  whom I
shouldn't see among the first of that order, though).
Mathias


The connection is the simplest posiible - these are continuo songs,
most probably for home use, small audience, private entertainment,
like solo lute music of the period, from Reusner to Hagen. Do all the
people then had two instruments at home, and the other one for
continuo was obligatory an archlute or big theorbo??? Nonsense!

Jurek





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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

But I havn't heared any complains when a trio of a singer, lute and
gamba are glorifying the Dowland's name. To be honest, to my ears the
lute is almost inaudible in such setting, and discussions about
poliphony of it's part or consecutive fifths is aimless. Very often
even without gamba.
In fact. However, tomorrow I have to do a pair of cuts from Silva  
Rerum with the melody given to the gamba. Hopefully I'll hear  
myself. I'll be amplified too.

RT


Do you mean the MS at the Krakow BJ 10002 (also numnered 127/56) of  
so many Ukrainian connection?

J
__





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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

Obviously, it's good to know about the two or three Losy's pieces and  
a couple of Reusner's one transfered to theorbo. But I hope you are  
not going to say the d-m lute, after this discovery, is practically  
useless and everything can be reintabulated to an archlute now - ?


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.  
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and  
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa  
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there  
is not much more for an archlute. So players nowadays are looking for  
a repertire, that's quite natural. But I guess historical archlute  
players were not that badly looking for d-m lute music in order to  
convert it to their tuning, but played whatever was arround, songs,  
dances, Corelli hits or their own inventions, all mostly - who knows  
- without the help of paper... yes, by heart... or straight from its  
music notation, if I can cite from Weiss.


One of my students, following some historical sources and played one  
of the Corelli Sonatas on the d-m lute, with a noticable pleasure  
and, I'd say, success. Why this direction is not so willingly followed?


J
_

On 2008-10-24, at 17:08, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote:


And here is the mail where our Mathias Rösel mentions a couple of
theorbo/archlute pieces by Reusner. Which pieces are you refering to,
Mathias?


Are

-- Forwarded message --
Date: 12 Oct 2005 07:07 GMT
From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: baroque Lutelist [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Reusner

Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
I am curious although I have the 2 books of 1667  1676 by  
Reusner, are
there any internet files in Fronimo or pdf of Reusner?  Thanks in  
advance.


don't know about internet, but there are one or two pieces by Reusner
for the theorbo (or archlute) in Goess/Theorbo. Just to mention.

Best,

Mathias
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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, Jean-Marie, my to obvious omission, but still, the period  
coinsiding with the 11/13-c lute repertoire is extremely unfavorable  
for the archlute as the solo instrument. Perhaps Italians were still  
playing it, but mostly in Italy - vide Arigoni dynasty (no single  
piece of music I know, how much I'd like to), and here and there in  
Central Europe occasionally too. But remind me a source of genuin  
archlute solo music from outside of Itay, please, I'd be gratefull.


French kings, like Louis XIII and Louis XIV were permanently in a  
state of wars, but their marchals secured by force or conquered  
nothing special, quite contrary to their poets, musicians, painters,  
designers, etc. Half of Europe begin speaking French and playing the  
French way, including the d-m lute, and as far as in Poland, the  
country for a long time culturally binded to everything Italian. In  
Danzig - that's far north near Königsberg - you could find any  
natinal elemnts - Italian, English, of course German and Polish, but  
since some 1630/40 the lute was French with all it's flavors. And  
Pierre Gaultier's print of 1638, one of the first with d-m pieces in  
it, was copied and known. I doubt Virginia Renata von Gehema had two  
instruments - one for her solo French, German and Polish music, and  
the other for Albert Arien and protestant hymns, happened to be also  
present in her book.


I think we greatly undervalue the importance of the d-m lute in the  
present lute world.

J
_


On 2008-10-24, at 19:48, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

 ...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da  
Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there
is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008




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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

That's something! A bit more detailes, Roman, please.
J
__

On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote:


And in the 18th century-
Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe  
Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli.

RT

- Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da  
Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'),  
there

is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008







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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

Of course, Orlando Christoforetti in his preface to Dalla Casa  
_Sonate_ gives even more names. Presumably in this respect you could  
cite half of the address books from all Italian cities and viliges.  
It is as usefull for us as news from the moon, until you'll point out  
to the hard copy of their music. More or less the same means Janovka  
(1701) from Prague when he says that one could cover all the roofs in  
the city with the great number of lutes there. He says nothing about  
archlute in his _Clavis ad Thesaurum magne artis musicae_, as fare as  
I know.


J
___

On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote:


And in the 18th century-
Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe  
Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli.

RT

- Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da  
Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'),  
there

is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008




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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

So I'd kiss their dupa and play Uccelini, Colista, Corelli or Handel  
- at least without a shame, and not transtabulate or steal casual  
bits from Weiss or Logy. I still believe lutenist is a musician -  
isn't he?, and not a prisoner of the tablature ghetto. It's a  
frustrating abridgement ...well, for me. We to often forget the  
tablature is only a _notation_, not the Music.

J
___

On 2008-10-24, at 21:30, Roman Turovsky wrote:


How can I desribe the situation succintly?
There aree Mss, but they are owned by a major dziura w dupie who  
wouldn't let anyone see them, a bit like the Chilesotti debacle...

RT

- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 3:20 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


Of course, Orlando Christoforetti in his preface to Dalla Casa   
_Sonate_ gives even more names. Presumably in this respect you  
could  cite half of the address books from all Italian cities and  
viliges.  It is as usefull for us as news from the moon, until  
you'll point out  to the hard copy of their music. More or less  
the same means Janovka  (1701) from Prague when he says that one  
could cover all the roofs in  the city with the great number of  
lutes there. He says nothing about  archlute in his _Clavis ad  
Thesaurum magne artis musicae_, as fare as  I know.

J
___
On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote:

And in the 18th century-
Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe   
Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli.

RT

- Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da   
Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto  
francese'),  there

is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008






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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

No, Roman, please tell people what is _dupa_, otherwise we might be  
accused of talking awfully musicological lingo ;-)

J
___

On 2008-10-24, at 21:30, Roman Turovsky wrote:


How can I desribe the situation succintly?
There aree Mss, but they are owned by a major dziura w dupie who  
wouldn't let anyone see them, a bit like the Chilesotti debacle...

RT

- Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 3:20 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


Of course, Orlando Christoforetti in his preface to Dalla Casa   
_Sonate_ gives even more names. Presumably in this respect you  
could  cite half of the address books from all Italian cities and  
viliges.  It is as usefull for us as news from the moon, until  
you'll point out  to the hard copy of their music. More or less  
the same means Janovka  (1701) from Prague when he says that one  
could cover all the roofs in  the city with the great number of  
lutes there. He says nothing about  archlute in his _Clavis ad  
Thesaurum magne artis musicae_, as fare as  I know.

J
___
On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote:

And in the 18th century-
Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe   
Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli.

RT

- Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo


...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da   
Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) !


Jean-Marie

=== 24-10-2008 18:07:01 ===


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A.
Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and
continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa
(some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto  
francese'),  there

is not much more for an archlute.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
24-10-2008






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[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-10-24, at 23:14, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote:


If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj),


I have never heard about this manuscript. Please, tell me more  
about it!


PL-Kj Mus. Ms. 40591
V.A. Coelho, Authority, Autonomy, and Interpretation in Seventeenth- 
Century Italian Music, in: _Performance on the Lute, Guitar and  
Vihuela_, ed. by V.A. Coelho, Cambridge University Press 1997.

There you should find more on the entire subject.

the G.A. Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori  
and continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla  
Casa (some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto  
francese'), there is not much more for an archlute. So players  
nowadays are looking for a repertire, that's quite natural. But I  
guess historical archlute players were not that badly looking for  
d-m lute music in order to convert it to their tuning, but  
played whatever was arround, songs, dances, Corelli hits or their  
own inventions, all mostly - who knows - without the help of  
paper... yes, by heart... or straight from its music notation,  
if I can cite from Weiss.


One of my students, following some historical sources and played  
one of the Corelli Sonatas on the d-m lute, with a noticable  
pleasure and, I'd say, success. Why this direction is not so  
willingly followed?


I have played a sarabande from violin sonata by Corelli in a  
version for d-m lute. Its in Stefan Lundgren's tutor. I would very  
much like to hear your student's version!


She played one of the entire Corelli Sonata (o course transposed) for  
an exam in the passed academic year, we don't have any recording of  
of it, obviously. Now she is in Trossingen for a year before coming  
back to Krakow for the final diploma year. She started her lute  
playing on the baroque lute and I think it's her main instrument,  
beside of the Italian type theorbo for practical reasons (that was  
her second one).


Jurek
___


Are




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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

Weiss and Logy on archlute! Well, of course, everything is  
explanable, I can understand any individual approach. In the end  
music as an art or entertainment is 'free'. Also history is a very  
plastic phenomenon, what endless discussions at least on this list  
only testify. But why there is such a bias against a baroque lute?


We have more or less 150 years of written heritage of music for the  
renaissance tuning and another 150 years of survived music for the  
baroque (d-minor) tuning, with some 50 years of overlap in that  
aspect. Someone has stated that Silvius Leopold Weiss, with his over  
1000 recognized single compositions, is the richest represented  
composer of all lute music. I'm saying nothing about quality and am  
not comparing Dalza with Falckenhagen becouse it's pointless - I'm  
astonished about present or modern statistics. Who started, for  
exemple, his marriage with lute with Weiss and not with Francesco? I  
know, not many, so why such a trend in pedagogy?


One can buy Weiss or Logi on an archlute if it's for fun or pleasure.  
Equally well one can try Pulenc on theorbo or Kapsperger on modern  
harp, or Gershwin on balalaika - if the artistic/musical efect is  
really moving - including single strings on some hybrid lutes  
called ...anyhow. I have absolutely nothing against it, even long for  
any real artistic show with a plucker on stage (what unfortunately  
doesn't happen to often, I'm afraid). But why the real baroque lute  
is such a black sheep, why such a distaste, reluctance or even  
aversion? Why the few maniacs only use baroque lute tuning for a  
continuo, in the age the instrument was born and used?


Here I see most plainly how the history is selectively used, not  
excluding HIP. Quite intriguing, isn't it?

Jurek

PS: but really nothing against archlute ;-)) or any other type of  
lute... just curiosity.

_

On 2008-10-23, at 20:43, Mathias Rösel wrote:


Are Vidar Boye Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:

convenient... This way all - really nearly the  ALL! -  the baroque
solo-continuo stuff is playable by an archlute!


Yepp, that's true. I tried Logy and Weiss grand staff transcriptions
with the archlute and found them quite feasable.


I think I read somewhere that there actually is a courante by Logy  
in an

18th century archlute version.

In the much debated letter where Weiss describes his continuo  
lute, he
also claims that neither archlute nor theorbo is any good for  
galanterie

pieces. Of course, he was wrong... :-)


Well, yes, of course ;) A bitmore serious, I'd quote in full that the
giraffes, which differ from each other, sound coarse and rude, when  
you

come close, because they were played with nails.
I do not play Weiss wi-with na-na-nails, uff c-course.

Mathias






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[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-10-24, at 03:49, Roman Turovsky wrote:


From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED]
doesn't happen to often, I'm afraid). But why the real baroque  
lute  is such a black sheep, why such a distaste, reluctance or  
even  aversion? Why the few maniacs only use baroque lute tuning  
for a  continuo, in the age the instrument was born and used?
I am for one emphatically against such usage, even though I  
occasionally do that against my principles, in front of people.
If a baroque lute is audible in an instrumental ensemble- it is  
likely because it either played a sour note or was late on the  
entry.


Who then played the Reusner music (MS additions to his printed  
music), Radolt (compare recent CD), Kühnel, Lauffensteiner,  
Falckenhagen, Hagen, Baron, Meusel, Martino, Weiss, Kropfgans,  
Sollnitz, Schaffrath, Kohaut, Haydn, Seckendorf, Daube, Rust... For  
whom were the present Augsburg and Bruxelles collections. Who took  
pain to assemble the Schweidnitz MS I Trastulli D’Apollo in suavi  
Concerti and several others... And do not forget about the 'Bach  
1025' case.



I do like accompanying a singer though.
RT


Here you are, though you don't like it: H Albert, G Voigtländer, J.H.  
Schein, H. Schütz, Ch Bernhard, A. Krieger, J. Rist, T Selle, A  
Hammerschmidt, J Nauwach, C Ch Dedekind,  J Kremberg, Ph.H. Erlebach,  
G.Ph. Telemann, J.V. Görner, J.A. Hasse, J.S. Scholze  
(Sperontes),. not to mention all the less known further east,  
survived or not.


Here I see most plainly how the history is selectively used, not   
excluding HIP. Quite intriguing, isn't it?

Jurek


Jurek
_




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weyrauch

[Jerzy Zak]

But he is a regular guitarist, with all its goods and bads… Probably  
thinks we are silly fools ;-))

But the video is OK, if you like anything played efficiently.
J
___

On 2008-09-29, at 14:35, Stephan Olbertz wrote:


Does anyone know what this exactly is?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=u0dHmUORzEk

I didn't know that we have a composition by Johann Christian  
Weyrauch. Meyer doesn't list

anything. Hm...

Regards,

Stephan






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Composers methods

[Jerzy Zak]

Hi Theo,

So we agree the process of composing (in the past) had little to do  
with notation system - kind of tab or a staff notation. The act of  
inventing takes place between a head and the hands, most often, and  
then is only visualized on paper, anyhow. The other thing are  
notational traditions, often connected with certain instruments. In  
another words there isn't something like 'composing in tablature' or  
'composing in staff notation', but rather 'notating in' one or the  
other system.


With some exceptions, however. I wouldn't risk composing a 5 part  
double fuge with strict inversions and augmentations using a 6-line  
tab staff - rather crazy, or a motet with instruments… IF I'd find  
such a commission today ;-) The question not for this liste but  
rather for the general lute-liste remains how the Renaissance  
composers were able to achieve such fluency and sophistication in  
creating their poliphonic(!) fantasias/ricercars/tientos/atc… relying  
mostly, I suspect, on their imagination and the lute in hands. That's  
something unseen in modern 'early music' world.


But who needs 'old-new' compositions now? A paradox, or academic  
discussion, uless it is Pawel Szymanski:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/polish_music/composer/szymanski.html

You may listen to bits of his 'Une Suite de Pieces de Clavecin' from  
'Works for Piano' CD (sorry, nothing for lute as yet):
http://merlin.pl/Works-For-Piano_Maciej-Grzybowski/browse/product/ 
4,47.html;jsessionid=8284E91DB6F6AE0E6A8430BCA41C85DF.LB3


Best,
Jurek
__


On 2008-09-09, at 01:45, Tadeyev wrote:


Hi Jerzy and all,

Good points all around.
The only point I would add is that we can often 'discover' whether a
composer worked from the instrument or their head fairly easily.
As Roman pointed out, there is documentation for it, but there is also
just the hands and fingers.
As a harpsichordist I know Bach, Scarlatti and Sweelinck best; all
three have keyboard pieces clearly composed at the keyboard, and other
pieces composed far away from it.

Even difficult passages when conceived at the instrument will often
remain well within the hand's possibilities (even when it uses strange
devices like runs using the thumbs between the left and right hands)
and well within 10 fingers. Yet for these composers there are many
pieces that you can tell right away were not conceived at the keyboard
with unusual jumps and juxtapositions,chord arrangements or peculiar
voice leadings and hand acrobatics. This can also be the case
concerning intabulations of vocal music, transposed pieces or pieces
borrowed from other genres/instruments. I am sure there are similar
analogs to lute music as well. In the end, I personally don't care
where the composer worked- as long as the music is wonderful!
Theodore Diehl



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[LUTE] Roman's email

[Jerzy Zak]

Roman,
Aren't there some problems with your email account?
jz




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Mouton

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear List,

What are the actual dates of life of Charles Mouton.

On a recent (?) CD Franco Pavan writes: Charles Mouton was born in  
Paris in January 1617: he was actually baptised on the 21st of the  
month at Saint-Jacques de la Boucherie…. I cannot find any dates of  
the CD on the booklet downloaded from the

http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/le-mouton-fabuleux/

The same is in the New Grove entry by David Ledbetter: Mouton,  
Charles (b Paris 1617; d before 1699). And this dates crop up on most  
internet sources. But the entry seems suprisingly short as for Mr  
Mouton, don't you think?


But on the LSA Lute Festival 2008 Concerts page:
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/seminar/Cleveland2008/ 
LiddellCConcert.html

Catherine Liddell gives: Charles Mouton (ca. 1626- after [!] 1699)

French Wikipedia gives (vers 1626-1710), but of course, wikipedia…
Other places: (ca. 1626 - ?), (c.1620 - c.1700), (1626-1710) …waist  
of time looking for more happy variations on the subject.


But it would be nice to see a word from an expert, if he is on the  
Liste now.


Regards and thanks in advance,
Jurek




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[LUTE] Krakow SAM 2008

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Liste,

Although late, I’d like to let you know of the next –

10-th Summer Music Academy Krakow (Poland) 2008
http://www.amuz.krakow.pl/en/?web=linki

Below there are esential info from the Academy’s web page concerning  
the cources. To that I might add, that the Jagiellonian Library in  
Krakow egreed to organize a special visite of interested participants  
to their collection of old music prints and manuscripts, commonly  
known as the ‘Berlin Collection’. Some of you know the contents of  
it - let me just mention the famous Spinacino 1507 print as the  
earlist, and the Rust MS from ca. 1760’s, as probably the latest.


Here follow extracted fragments, but you are invited to see the  
original web page given above.

Jurek (Jerzy Zak)



Ladies and Gentlemen,
Summer Music Academy will celebrate its first jubilee. It is with  
pleasure that we can state that during ten years of its existence it  
became one of the most significant summer cultural events, and the  
participants arriving from all over the world confirm its  
international renown. The 10th Summer Music Academy coincides with  
the 120th anniversary of the Academy of Music in Kraków, Poland. We  
would like to emphasize the unique character of this edition not only  
by the presence of great masters and their performances, but we want  
to present our participants during “The Youth: Now” concert  
series. We wait for you in Kraków, a city which provides the most  
beautiful framework for all artistic meetings.

Prof. Andrzej Pikul - Artistic Director

THE SCHEDULE OF COURSES
(extracted only ‘early music’, in calendar order):
…
Jerzy ZAK - Lute, August 21 - 24
Teresa KAMINSKA - Baroque cello, August 27 - 30
Malgorzata WOJCIECHOWSKA - Flute traverso, August 27 - 30
Marcin ZALEWSKI - Viola da gamba, August 27 - 30
Elzbieta STEFANSKA – Harpsichord, August 28 - 30
…

INFORMATIONS (extracted):
– The 10-th SAM Kraków 2008 will take place between August 20-30,  
2008 at the Academy of Music in Kraków, Poland.
– Each course will last 4 days minimum. The actual duration of the  
course shall depend on the number of enrolled students. The  
participants shall be notified by 10 July 2008.
– The concerts of the best performers among the participants of the  
courses will be held in the Florianka Recital Hall.


APPLICATIONS, RESERVATIONS AND FEES
– by 15 June 2008, via letter, fax or e-mail – a legibly filled  
Application Form, enclosing a confirmation of payment of the  
Registration Fee for foreign persons – 30,00 EUR…

– Course fees for foreign applicants: 300 EUR
…

OFFICE:
Joanna Czech
tel. + 48 12 422 44 00
tel. + 48 12 422 04 55 ext. 144
fax. + 48 12 422 44 55
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Academy of Music in Krakow
43, Sw. Tomasza Street
31-027 Krakow
Poland

CALENDAR/CONCERTS (extracted):

20 August, 7 p.m.
Ceremonial opening…
…
22 August, 7 p.m.
Lute recital: Jerzy Zak
…
24, 25 August, 7 p.m.
Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now”
…
27 August, midday (12 p.m.)
Lecture on baroque dances, with live performance. Conducted by Prof.  
Elżbieta Stefańska, Romana Maciuk-Agnel and Dariusz Brojek (dances)

27 August, 3 p.m.

Chamber Hall, 43, Sw. Tomasza St.
Baroque dances course for all the interested participants of the SAM

27 August, 7 p.m.
Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now”
…
29, 30 August, 7 p.m.
Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now”

30 August, 7 p.m.
Ceremonial closing…





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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence

[Jerzy Zak]

In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same  
programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on  
harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical practice.  
Very interesting, thanks, Rob.

Jurek
___

On 2008-02-05, at 10:55, Rob Lute wrote:

I had a very pleasant evening on Saturday with my harpsichord- 
making friend,
Grant O'Brien, and his friends, including a short recital on one of  
his

harpsichords by Lucy Carolan, a first-rate player. Grant and I got to
talking about lute and harpsichord making in Italy, and he revealed  
a couple

of interesting points:

1. all Italian harpsichords had fir soundboards, not spruce, as  
found north
of the Alps. Did I know of any fir-soundboarded lutes? Well, I  
didn't. Can

anyone contribute something here?

2. the tiorbino: here is a fascinating article from Grant's website,
discussing a keyboard instrument called the tiorbino, apparently  
gut-strung,

like the lautenclavier:
http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/ 
The_tiorbino.htm -
I love the part where a buyer asks the maker to build another one  
if the

first one goes out of tune! A great idea, albeit somewhat expensive...

Although these are keyboard topics, I'm sure they will be of  
interest to

some here.

Rob MacKillop





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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote:


http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html


Thank you, Arthur,
Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan  
(1/4 of a measure).


Forgive improper terminology, if that's important.
In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions  
loose sense of course.


However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory.
Jurek
__




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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-02-05, at 17:33, LGS-Europe wrote:


Recorder and viol players are often shocked at the slowness of  
speeds requested by lutenists for broken consort music (Morley 1599  
et al), and a compromise has to be reached.




One of the top lute players once confessed to me why he is no longer  
playing with his broken ensemble (we were talkng about the English  
repertoire), becouse the other parts, beside of the lute, are so  
boring, mostly in very long notes, that nobody really wants to play  
it with him.
It is undertandable then, every flute or viola player tends to play  
all the whole and half notes faster. Of course hard to finde a  
compromise. Easy-dificult music and only one has fun.


Jurek
__



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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

Thank you Jean-Marie,

After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I  
should have written:

1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat)

and in an original mensural notation would be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of  
a pavan (one beat or half of the measure)


Is it correct?
Jurek
__


1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).


On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


Exactly Jerzy.

I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1  
tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern  
transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one  
measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time  
with a regular tactus in duple  time - hand touching down for each  
breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not  
considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then  
as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time  
measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a  
clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to  
triple and back, if necessary.  Usually a breve, with two demi- 
breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- 
breves to it.
Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all  
the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion.  So, take care, you have to  
consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a  
correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]...


Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 05-02-2008 17:27:26 ===



On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote:


http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html


Thank you, Arthur,
Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).

Forgive improper terminology, if that's important.
In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions
loose sense of course.

However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory.
Jurek
__





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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence

[Jerzy Zak]

On 2008-02-05, at 14:21, tiorba wrote:

In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same  
programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on   
harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical  
practice. Very interesting, thanks, Rob.

Jurek


It's indeed very far!
Like playing a vocal aria with the vox humana of an organ, or  
thinking about sun and sea playing with unda maris...
It's really clear what is a tiorbino for Castaldi. Not only from  
the picture, but also from the introduction, unfortunately lacking  
in the Minkoff reprint...


Diego


Diego,
Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as  
breathing. Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it. Of  
course I would do better using some other instrument strung in gut,  
say another lute, harp or ...a keyboard instrument called tiorbino,  
providing I'd know of it. But my buddy played ordinary (oh, how  
ordinary) italian cembalo, so what? But I'll tell you more, there is  
a biger scandal approaching or already appeared - Kenneth Gilbert's  
keyboard edition of the lute and theorbo music of Kapsperger... I can  
imagine a battle on this liste like the one with Sting. ¡Ay, caramba!


Jurek
PS: but the introduction to Castaldi I'd love to know, of course!
_




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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

Jarek,

On 2008-02-05, at 20:33, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Jurek,
It got complicated a little bit, but in fact is very simple. If you  
start

taping your foot (I don't advice taping foot at all, but one can do it
virtually) when playing Pavan, don't stop it when the Galliard  
comes, and

everything will be fine :)


The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The  
problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in  
what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat.


I played with the dancers several times and generally they don't  
like fast
tempos of the Galliard for the simple reason they have many  
complicated

steps (the steps shown on American video are very basic).
I absolutely agree with Steward that Galliard was slowing down with  
time

passing because of more and more complicated steps.


The same with pavan, the same with almain/allemande, with sarabande,  
etc.



If we presume that in
XVI c. Italy it was a lively dance,


as well as the pavan not so slow, too.


probably in the end of Dowland's life it
was not. No wonder that when Mace was writing about Galliard,  
everybody was

so bored already with Galliards and inventing new attractive steps in
general. So probably this is why he describes it as a slow, grave  
and sober

dance.


In his time both the pavan and the galliard were for old fogies. In  
my feeling the Dowland pavans and galliard situates somwhere between  
the tipical XVIth c. Italian lively prototypes and Mace, but were  
already in a stage of decadence. But first of all Dowland is not for  
dancing - try to convince someone to dance to his Lacrime Pavan. Of  
course under the academic roof you can do it, but would you like to  
take part in that experiment?




Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:31 PM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time

Thank you Jean-Marie,

After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I
should have written:
1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat)

and in an original mensural notation would be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of
a pavan (one beat or half of the measure)

Is it correct?
Jurek
__


1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might  
be:

3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).


On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


Exactly Jerzy.

I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1
tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern
transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one
measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time
with a regular tactus in duple  time - hand touching down for each
breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not
considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then
as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time
measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a
clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to
triple and back, if necessary.  Usually a breve, with two demi-
breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi-
breves to it.
Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all
the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion.  So, take care, you have to
consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a
correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]...

Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 05-02-2008 17:27:26 ===



On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote:


http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html


Thank you, Arthur,
Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might  
be:

3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).

Forgive improper terminology, if that's important.
In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions
loose sense of course.

However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory.
Jurek
__







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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

I couldn't quickly find a fitting example of a XVIth c. pair pavan- 
galliard, but I have at hand Terzi's 1st book of tab. and their on p.  
115-117: Ballo Tedesco… / Il Saltarello del prescrito ballo. They are  
closly related thematically and it immadiately appeares that one bar/ 
measure of the ballo equals to two bars/measure of the saltarello in  
performance - that is providing a ballo is a piece of music in a  
moderate speed and a saltarello is brisk. In that way all the  
structural elements, the melody and 'harmony' runs in the saltarello  
twice as fast as in ballo, the fraze is twice shoter, etc. But if  
you'd write both dances on paper in a score way, one under the other,  
you could see that in musical contents one printed bar equals one  
printed bar. That may give a faulty impression that it might be  
performed bar to bar in terms of time and speed.


Funny experiment. But still I think that for a sheer instrumental  
performance that strict proportion might be compromised accordingly.

Jurek



On 2008-02-05, at 21:12, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

There is no such obvious equivalence really, but keep in mind the  
equivalence of one breve with two beats (Pavan) and one breve with  
three beats (Galliard). The augmentation of the number of notes to  
a beat -  three for two - gives the feeling of an acceleration  
sufficient to differentiate the two dances. At least that's how I  
usually find my way around in this particular matter and it works  
fine, even with dancers...


Hope it helps !

All the best,

Jean-Marie

=== 05-02-2008 21:: ===

The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The
problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in
what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat.


After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I
should have written:
1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat)

and in an original mensural notation would be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of
a pavan (one beat or half of the measure)

Is it correct?
Jurek
__


1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might
be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).


On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:


Exactly Jerzy.

I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1
tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern
transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one
measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time
with a regular tactus in duple  time - hand touching down for each
breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not
considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then
as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time
measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a
clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to
triple and back, if necessary.  Usually a breve, with two demi-
breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi-
breves to it.
Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all
the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion.  So, take care, you have to
consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a
correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]...

Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 05-02-2008 17:27:26 ===



On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote:


http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html


Thank you, Arthur,
Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.

In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might
be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan
(1/4 of a measure).

Forgive improper terminology, if that's important.
In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions
loose sense of course.

However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance  
theory.

Jurek
__






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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino, by Castaldi

[Jerzy Zak]

Tremendous thanks for this, Diego. Transcibing such in an old and  
foreign language text from an original would be a nightmare for me.

Jurek
_


On 2008-02-05, at 21:56, Diego Cantalupi wrote:


That's the (difficult) text.
I'll try to upload he page later


ALLA NOBILE, SPLENDIDA E VIRTUOSA GIOVENTU' GENOVESE


Il Liuto Re degli stromenti bontà del suo essere, conforme a la  
natura de vecchi, è ritroso e dificile, stracco di soffrire lo  
strapazzo barbieresco che ne fa la turba errante, Havendo dal  
Arciduchessa Tiorba, che l'altro giorno per non mancar d'herede  
egli prese per moglie havuto un figliuoletto vago, e piacevole, che  
più al Altezza de la Madre che a la Maiestà del genitore  
rassomigliandosi, Tiorbino fù chiamato, visto l'aplauso universale  
che in omni genere musicorum si dava a la Donna  al putto, come  
lieto di una tal successione, così mezzo disperato per non trovar  
più fra quei che si lambiccano in suo servitio, chi modernamente lo  
contenti, del suo caro Piccinino, et altri pochi in poi, s'è  
risoluto d'inviarsi a la volta degli Antipodi, onde hà fatto prima  
solenne rinuntia, de la Liutesca corona reale che tiene, e d'ogni  
sua pretensione a la Regina moglie,  al figliuolo, accortosi che  
l'una, e l'altro, quando stiano accoppiati insieme, fanno ottimo  
concerto, e perfettamente, e con poco fatica danno quella  
sodisfattione a tutto il mondo, che a sua Maestà non è mai bastato  
l'animo di fare se non in processo di lunghissimo tempo.
Hora che ciò ch'io dico sia vero eccone a le SS. VV. virtuosissime  
un po' d'abbozzo in questa miei capricci li quali piu intel  
ligibile ch'io habbia potuto, per non haver io giamai più fatto tal  
mestiero, sono stati intagliati in rame da me così a la grossa per  
diversion di quella dolorosa noia, che continoamente mi dà  
l'inossata palla, che nel mezzo del piè sinistro mi lasciò per  
favorirmi tornato da Roma in patria, ott'anni sono una leggiadra e  
gentii Pistoletta galante, questa mostra dico di fantasticarie  
tiorbesche dedico, dono, e consacro a le SS. VV. come a persone  
nobili, Splendide, e che più d'ogn'altra natione di virtù si  
dilettano; Suplicandole ad accettar voluntieri, e gradire questo  
mio picciol dono, qual egli si sia, per segno del obligo grande,   
immortale ch'io tengo a le carezze fattemi in coteste parti  
mentr'io ci dimorai da le generosità loro, et insieme il buono  
animo mio, che sarà prontissimo quand'io m'accorga che queste non  
gli dispiacciano, di porgere a la giornata con altre gentilezze  
simili a le nobilità de le SS. VV. virtuosissimo trattenimento.  
Così N.S. Iddio le concede il colmo d'ogni felicità, come io lo  
desidero con ogni maggior affetto.


Di Modena XV Lulio 1622 De Le Nobili Splendide, e
Virtuosissime SS. VV. Umilissimo  Devotissiomo
Servitore,

Bellerofonte Castaldi






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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising no evidence

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Diego,


On 2008-02-05, at 21:51, Diego Cantalupi wrote:

Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as   
breathing.

Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it.


Not so easy... it's very difficult, if not impossible, to find any  
music for

theorbo
in mensural notation written in the same times.


Perhaps not theorbo and not in Italy, but from France we have Perrine  
and especially d'Anglebert imaginatively transcribing lute music,  
without any prejudice, despite octaves on the lute, etc.



I'm sure there's a reason for this. Also I've never seen a printed
page testifying it on any lute and theorbo music book.


In a way the Cazzati print I mentioned yesterday can be a trace.  
Beside, again on a French soil, a book by Gallot says you can play it  
on other instruments, and of course de Visée, Dieupart (1667-1740),  
who else...? The tablature was an awful barrier, therefor my theory  
many Italian lutenists (including tiorbists) said addio! to that type  
of notation.



Of course, if you play a violin part with a cornetto or viceversa,
there are no problems! But playing a theorbo part (with all the  
problems

coming
from unisons, in particoular in Castaldi music) it's far from being  
natural.
Of course it works.  It works a little better on double harp, since  
it can

plays unisons...


That reminds me my examples to studens showing an honest and complete  
transcription (including dublings) of some 'matured' baroque guitar  
piece, say by Corbetta or Murcia, and how imposible it is, or on the  
other hand how groundless it is in order to understand the basically  
simple texture.



You can hear my experiment here (with some birds), selecting track 3.
You can transcribe it for two organs, also
hammond organs, it will work, but it won't be natural.
Also Kenneth Gilbert's edition of HK is very unnatural: of course very
easy to do, but since I'm quite sure he knows some counterpoint,
it would have benn better a sort of voices reconstructions...


I haven't seen it, but of course he shoud impersonate himself with  
someone like Frescobaldi or Rossi. But that's a persistent editorial  
problem - what to give to paper, and what to forgive to fingers.


Jurek
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[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?

[Jerzy Zak]

 with the continuo Pittoni calls for  
(organo or clavicembalo) there is no real sense of any strange  
harmonic inversion.


The bar on page 43 also illustrates another problem: if one accepts  
an octave on the 2nd, where does it all end? - since here the  
scalic passage, both ascending and descending, crosses all three  
top courses: there has to be a discontinuity somewhere; wether it  
be between the 2nd and 3rd or 1st and 2nd. Note also that at the  
beginning of this bar he completes the previous ascending phrase on  
the same course (3rd at fret 7) and then plays the same note on  
course 2 (fret1) to start the next short phrase. This, I suggest,  
shows he made a concious choice to start the next phrase at the  
lower octave - in short double reentrant.


Personally, I rather like the octave leap at the end of the  
bar


MH




Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Martyn,

All this is very persuasive, but what about the story of a double re-
entrant instrument with double strings and the second course in
octaves, in G or A?

From my sketchy calculations it appeares it must be an instrument of
about 74 cm (stopped), considering on one side the breaking point of
the high octave of the second (the _e'_) and the musical quality of
the 6th (or 7th) course. As a theorbo it's a toy instrument, useless
(?), but in therms of say a baroque d-m lute, with which it shares
the tessitura, it is a huge one. In this case such a theorbo would
have the 5th and the 6th (+ the 7th?) in octaves as well.

Someone said that already.

Gratefull for comments,
Jurek
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[LUTE] Re: Playing in time

[Jerzy Zak]

Dear Stewart and Jaroslaw,

In a way you are both right advocating legitimate interpretations,  
theoretically opposite. But they overlap and that common region is in  
much degree subjective, depending on context, historicall or personal  
styles, even some national propensities (compare the Italian and  
French battles over the style of composition or performance in the  
XVIIth C.).


The problem is that the discussion started from a very bad exemple  
which nither represent a dance form (in case of the web site 'as if  
Polish') but a free composition, nor any particular style of playing.  
Actually, I'd have to get massively drunken in order to play for over  
ten years the same notorious Finale 'by Dlugoraj' and not much else.  
The player seems much more imaginative in self promoting (as the  
entire contents of the page testifies!) then musical interpretation.


Then, I think, P O'Dette and H Smith, or R Lislevand, or even J  
Bream, are safer for polemics however contrasting are their  
interpretations. The discussion can be exciting, even limited to  
verbal descriptions (for the lack of sound, the soul of music) and  
can tell perhaps more of ourselves and our preferences, then the  
subject itself, so elusive.


So forgive I shortened the Subject and cut off the useless association.
Jurek
__

On 2008-02-03, at 17:03, Stewart McCoy wrote:


Dear Jaroslav,

Thank you very much for these observations, which you have  
presumably taken
from Robert Donington, _The Interpretation of Early Music_ (London:  
Faber 

Faber, new version reprinted 1975), p. 425.

The first passage you quote, which Donington took from Thomas Mace,  
p. 147,

is incomplete. The full text given by Donington is:

Many Drudge, and take much Pains to Play their Lessons very  
Perfectly, (as

they call It (that is, Fast) which when they can do, you will perceive
Little Life, or Spirit in Them, meerly for want of the Knowledge of  
This
last Thing, I now mention, viz. They do not labour to find out the  
Humour,

Life, or Spirit of their Lessons.

Here Mace is arguing for music to be played expressively, to  
capture the
mood of a composition. He says that many players think you just  
have to get
the notes right and play the piece up to speed, the faster the  
better. This
does not really counter what I have been saying about lutenists  
playing out
of time. You would have done better to look seven pages further on  
(p. 432),

where you will find another passage taken from Mace (p. 81):

[Beginners must learn strict time; but] when we come to be  
Masters, so that

we can command all manner of Time, at our own Pleasures; we Then take
Liberty, (and very often, for Humour [i.e. mood, not wit], and  
good
Adornment-sake, in certain Places), to Break Time; sometimes  
Faster, and

sometimes Slower, as we perceive, the Nature of the Thing Requires.

In my earlier e-mail, I quoted the passage on p. 124 of _Musick's  
Monument_:


 ... you cannot fail to know my Mistress's Humour, provided you  
keep True
Time, which you must be extreamly careful to do, in All Lessons:  
For Time is

the One half of Musick.

At first sight, Mace seems to be contradicting himself with these  
three
passages, yet I believe he is spot on. I think he means that he  
wants music
to be played in time, not with sloppy rubato all over the place for  
its own
sake, but neither does he want it to be played mechanically with no  
regard
for the mood of the piece. To capture the essential character of a  
piece of
music requires some freedom of interpretation, but done subtly, and  
in such
a way that the music appears to keep good time. I would suggest  
that Paul
O'Dette does precisely that. He can play a piece of dance music so  
that
one's foot taps in sympathy, but he doesn't play mechanically.  
There may be
a little give and take to capture the spirit of a piece, perhaps a  
breath
between sections, without him resorting to the sort of arrhythmic  
playing I

so dislike.

-o-O-o-

As with Mace, you would have done better to choose a quotation  
seven pages

on for Frescobaldi, where Donington gives the following (p. 432):

First, this kind of playing must not be subject to the beat, as we  
see done
in modern Madrigals, which, in spite of their difficulties, are  
made easier
by means of the beat, taking it now slowly, now quickly, and even  
held in

the air, to match the expressive effects, or the sense of the words.

In this passage, and in the one you quoted, Frescobaldi is talking
specifically about the performance of his toccatas for keyboard,  
and clearly
wants a very free performance. I would suggest that some of the  
early lute
ricercars might be approached in a similar way. If there is any  
irregularity
in the rhythm, it has to be for a purpose though, not just for its  
own sake.

The meaning of the word ricercar can give us a clue - searching out,
research, discovery, exploration - it is as if the performer is  
trying to

[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G/A? Plus some guidelines

[Jerzy Zak]

Martyn,

All this is very persuasive, but what about the story of a double re- 
entrant instrument with double strings and the second course in  
octaves, in G or A?


From my sketchy calculations it appeares it must be an instrument of  
about 74 cm (stopped), considering on one side the breaking point of  
the high octave of the second (the _e'_) and the musical quality of  
the 6th (or 7th) course. As a theorbo it's a toy instrument, useless  
(?), but in therms of say a baroque d-m lute, with which it shares  
the tessitura, it is a huge one. In this case such a theorbo would  
have the 5th and the 6th (+ the 7th?) in octaves as well.


Someone said that already.

Gratefull for comments,
Jurek
__

On 2008-02-03, at 10:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote:



  Thanks for this; I'd be grateful for a fuller response to cover  
all the points in my previous email to you. Nevertheless I'll  
respond to this one below:


  INFORMATION

  I now see from your mention of my guitar stringing email that you  
seem to equate 'information' solely with figures whereas I also  
include other things such as tunings, examples of solo music, etc  
which you do not count as information - we'll bear this in mind.


  BOB SPENCER'S  LYNDA SAYCE'S PAPERS

  In fact, Bob Spencer gave examples of large double reentrant  
theorbos in A and G (with string lengths around 89 and 91cm - the  
same ones I gave details earlier). He also cites Mace on tuning of  
single and double theorbos in G and A and says that large theorbos  
need the two highest courses down the octave and not just the first  
(ie smaller theorbos just had the first course on actave down p. 412).


  Similarly, Lynda Sayce does in fact provide much information  
including sizes of some large extant theorbos.


  TALBOT MS

  Talbot fortunately gives more than the minimum number of  
dimensions and it is quite possible to recreate the instrument  
based on what he gives at a string length of between 88/91cm (as  
Michael Prynne and later others) without making unecessary  
assumptions as David did (I'm told it's mostly to do with  
measurements of body to body/neck joint or to the end of the tongue  
and not by excluding the rose diameter).


  David doesn't mention reentrant tuning type (Talbot gives double  
reentrant in A for his measured instrument) and I would surprised  
if Lynda Sayce doesn't tune her 78cm English theorbo as single  
reentrant  - but you'll need to ask her.  Incidentally, 78cm seems  
an ideal size for a single reentrant theorbo - mine is 76cm which I  
now feel is marginally too small.


  EVIDENCE

  In short, the evidence I gave still stands and, little as it is,  
is indeed overwhelming (100%). I still await David Tayler's or your  
own evidence that small theorboes (say 75 to 82cm) were generally  
tuned as double reentrant.


  PITCH

  I don't quite understand your last point on pitch but if you are  
equating maximum acceptable breaking stress of solo and continuo  
instruments, I refer you to my recent email to Rob McKillop ... it  
contains figures too.



  WHEN SINGLE OR DOUBLE REENTRANT?

  Whilst no one denies that it is physically possible to string a  
small theorbo in A or G as double reentrant (especially using  
modern overwound strings), the question I, at least, am trying to  
address is what would have been expected historically. Early  
sources, when bothering to mention the matter at all (eg Piccini,  
Mace - cited earlier), stress that  smaller instruments are single  
reentrant and that double reentrant is only employed when the  
breaking stress of the highest pitched string (in this case the  
second course) is approached. I can, of course, well understand  
that if you play a small theorbo in an unlikely historical  
stringing (ie A or G double reentrant) you'll feel an almost  
Pavlovian obligation to defend your decision but surely you should  
be doing this on this basis of modern convenience and personal  
preference and not on the unsupportable position that it's somehow  
following historic models.


  MH

















howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Martyn Hodgson wrote:


In subsequent messages I gave more information (you must have
missed it): - how such small instruments were strung (just top
course an octave down or at a much higher nominal pitch eg D), -
early written evidence of theorbo sizes, - examples of solo music
for such instruments -


Again, there was no information; just your own conclusion that
smaller theorbos were not tuned double reentrant. You may be
confusing these posts (I've just reread them) with your post about
guitar stringing, which actually contained information.


and gave Lynda Sayce's website and Bob Spencer's article as
providing more information. You may say that I only refer to these
articles because they support the position on theorbo sizes which I
take - which it is true they do -


But they don't. Spencer doesn't correlate single-reentrant stringing