Re: Damping of bass strings described in historical treatises?
In matter of old 18 th C. basses I can say that they were very different than ours, of course While the mean density of the modern bass strings with nylon cores is arround 3.5-4.0 grm/cm3 the density of an half-wound gut string (which is like the original pieces found on the Raphael Mest's lute in Sweden) is close to 2.0-2.3 grm/cm3. It such conditions they works quite similar to the modern loaded gut strings. I.e. they stop their vibration fast, the sound is quite percussive and need an octave add. It is true that the sound is a bit strong than the modern loaded guts. I think that the Mest's strings are strings original: there are some important historical confirmations that came out from guitar methods of that time, original bridgeholes and the string thecnology of the time. The problem to damping the sound on basses is just a modern problem due to modern basses, I have made some of the historical strings for testing on my d minor lutes and I must say that tere is not any problem how to stop the sound of the basses. Ciao Mimmo Peruffo
Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes
Hi lutelovers, I think that some more things must be considered, in matter of historical baroque lute string tension and the hand position. The first concerne the question of the fingers closer to to the bridge like we can see on 17 c. paints. This is an old question, my suggestion point out that we need to make sure that our tests are made with guts and not with syntetic strings. The syntetic strings, modern wound bass expecially, are brighter than any wound string in use in that times. I mean, generally speaking in matter of lute basses (that we suppose to be in use in the XVIII century) that they were wound on gut cores. Now, some recent informations point out that they were half-wound (or so called open wound strings). This means that density of such strings is about twice (or just a bit more) than the gut density. In other worlds, I look them quite similar, in density, to the modern loaded gut strings. I'm refering in particular to a copy of the half wound basses found on the Raphael Mest lute taht I have made just for some tests. In other wolds, they still need of the octaves payed. The sound of such basses is quite dark and so one can well understand why they sound better close to the bridge. This solution do not work with modern basses because they are already too brighter and so they do not need to play close to the bridge to obtain from them more overtones. Otherwise, this is necessary with the historical half wound string types. The second consideration concerne the bass string tensions on mid 17th c. on d-minor lutes. Well, if one do not accept the loaded gut- theory we need to consider a traditional gut bass string (catline, ropedetc) with the density of a pure gut. Due to the bridgeholes on surviving lute ( narrow gauges) was estimated the working tensions ranged from 1.0 to 1.3 kg. I think that everyone can be able to understand what this situation means: it works against Dowland, Mace, Burwell treatises, were the so called 'equal feeling', the 'even stifness' etc. was the standard condition. What I ask is: Is it an historical situation a lute with all the basses at 1-1.3 kg and the rest of the strings with higher tensions?? In matter of historical tension at least one must consider that a Roman top lute string comes out from 1 whole lamb gut (of 7-8 months in age). In such condition a unrectified gut string ranges from .40 till .45 mm gauge. Not just .30 mm gauge for such bass string tensions! The discussion is still open. Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re:Nylgut
Dear friends, Nylgut was discovered here in Aquila (Italy) arround the 1996 year by me, patented and put into the market just in the 1997. There is no link with any tennis string; perhaps just the name (because was a copy?). I do not know if there are tennis strings with nylgut name. Why the Nylgut-name? Because this name help to remember that it have some proprieties of nylon (lower cost than gut, lower water absorbition, polished surface etc and some proprity of true gut, i.e. the sound, that it is closer of any plastics to gut. So the name recall these two materials in just one world. Just this. Ed is right; he was the first to introduce it to USA. Thank Ed. Nylgut stretch a lot at the begginnin and get thinner than gut so it is a good idea start with a thicker gauge. When you put nylgut on the lute when you are in tuning stretch a lot by hands the string so it became stable in few minutes. I make so on my lute. Only keep attention for the top string; the others must be stretch till they do not make variation in the note. The density is 1.30 gr/mm3 like gut; so it is closer to gut than nylon or carbon (PVDF). Ciao Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Breaking pitch
Hello guys, Just an observation: the suggested average of the Breacking Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m. However, the full range of modern lute strings ranging between 240- 300 Hz.mt. This is true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), were strings are made with a very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals. The Breacking Index drop in the case that we are speacking of thicker 1st strings, were they are made with more twist than the lute chantarelles. Example: on the 1st bass gamba strings the Breacking Index drop of a semitone-tone than the lute 1st strings. In fact this is function of some technological things: the twist quantity and the use (or not) of some substances ables to do gut harder etc etc. If we go in the range of the violone 1st strings the breacking Index drop again and again because such strings are made very very high twist and without any chemical tretment able to do gut stiffer. This is why, in my wiew, the calculated Working Indexes (the product of the string scale X the supposed frequencies of the 1st strings) of the bowed instruments in the Praetorous tables drop step- by -step when the instrument became longer. So on Violins we are in the average of 210 HZ/mt while, on violones, we drop to arround 180 Hz/m only. Ciao Mimmo alexander ha scritto: No one seems to object, and the talk continues as if the very people that gave u s all the amazing instruments we play, were totally ignorant as far as the oh, s o stupid "tune almost to the breaking point" line goes. The simple truth of the matter is that any string made of the same material will break at the same pitch , no matter its' diameter, as long as the string length is the same. Some here s till remember Eph Segerman?.. "The stress on the string (represented by S) is the tension divided by the cross-sectional area, so S=T/A. The tensile strength of a material is defined as the stress at breaking (which we can represent by SB). Then the breaking frequency, represented by fB becomes: fB = (1/2L)sqrt(SB/r). This demonstrates that the breaking pitch is inversely proportional to the string stop." In the formula, (as can not be seen here, unfortunately) the invert relation is only between the pitch, length and the breaking point stress. Diameter plays no role. All this means a very simple truth - all the instruments of the same mensu ra tuned close to the breaking point of a given material, will have the same pit ch, to the same degree as an organ pipe of the same length and diameter will pro duce the same pitch, be it in France or England. I hazard to say that, among pro fessionals who used "no rotten strings" and preferred particular strings made by the same makers and even at particular time of the year, the pitch standard was no worse then nowadays. alexander On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:29:32 -0800 howard posner [1] wrote: On Feb 17, 2009, at 5:43 PM, [2]chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: How many of us really follow this "fundamental of lute stringing" today? We tune our instruments to arbitrarily agreed upon pitches like 415, 392, 440 etc because its practical. If we were to do the truly historical thing, Jeff's G lute would be at 449, Joe's at 412, Tina's at 463 and Bill's at 398. That wouldn't have worked in 1610 either. They all had to use an agreed pitch if they were going to play together, unless they were into the whole John Cage thing. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Messaggio e-mail verificato da Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Versione database: 5.11780 [4]http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - [5]www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release Date: 02/17/09 07:07 :00 Messaggio e-mail verificato da Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Versione database: 5.11780 [6]http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ Messaggio e-mail verificato da Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Versione database: 5.11780 [7]http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ 5. http://www.avg.com/ 6. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ 7. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
[LUTE] Re: Breaking pitch
Hello Anthony, My first answer is: yes, for the string formula the diameter is, teorethically, ininfluent. So the breacking index is always the same. However, in practise there are some difference due to the surface treatments ables to do a string polished etc etc. My 'more or less' mean a certain range of gauges like those I wrote: I do not know if other stringmakers employ the special technical way useful to do thiner lute trbles for thicker gauges. However, the breacking idex is the same for all these gauges. I mean that if you increase the diameter also the tension go up of the same ammount. So diameter/tension for unit is always a costant. Tne only pratical difference, using a thicker gauge, is that the resistance to the superficial abrasion caused by sweet fingers is better. I mean: less hairs on the string. Mimmo Anthony Hind ha scritto: Dear Mimmo and All, If I have understood you correctly, there is a sort of contradiction : as gut becomes thicker, it must be treated to make it more flexible (higher twist and possibly softening chemicals), or else it becomes inharmonic. The more flexible it is, for a given diameter, however, the less tension it can stand (the Breaking Index drops). Thus it is not the thickness itself, but the way thick gut is treated that makes it break quicker than thin gut? You say the Index of a modern gut string is 260 Hz/m, but this is only true true for the range of lute 1st string gauges. "I mean 38 till 46 mm (more or less), where strings are made with a very low twist and gut is made harder by chemicals." Does this mean that it is possible to substitute say a 44 treble anywhere where it is safe to use a 42 treble, keeping exactly the same breaking point in Hz; or does your "more or less" imply that even for "38 till 46 mm" there will be a slight difference in twist or hardening, which could mean the 44 would be less strong than the 42? Of course I realize that such a substitution would increase the playing tension, which may or may not be an advantage. Regards Anthony Messaggio e-mail verificato da Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Versione database: 5.11780 [1]http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ -- References 1. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Basses loaded, bottom of the 9th
Martin Shepherd ha scritto: The logic is clear enough - you can put a thin string through a bigger hole, but not vice-versa. So if we have some well authenticated original bridges with small holes (a few would do - it doesn't have to be a majority) then we have to explain this. We also have to remember that the Old Ones didn't have highly engineered twist drills for every 0.1mm, so they may well have drilled some oversize holes as a matter of technical practicality. The small holes can be explained by increased string density (loading or winding with metal, for instance) or low tension, or only part of the string going through the hole, or maybe something we haven't thought of yet - but it's not magic. To say that we don't know how they made their bass strings is obviously true, but the possibilities are pretty limited - so it's not good enough to say "we don't know how they did it so we might as well just use overspun strings", at least not if we have any interest in how the lute might have sounded before the invention of modern wound strings. Just for the record, I don't believe our modern gut strings are exactly like theirs either, so we probably have some way to go in terms of reproducing their technology even for thin strings. I still prefer the sound and feel of them over any synthetic strings, and I would still like someone to produce a synthetic bass string with similar characteristics to the best gut bass strings we currently have. Well, I am very exiting to see this discussion. Thank you to all. I think that it is time to reasume, in short, some problem that maybe were overlook. I consider these, indeed, the heart of the problem. Please remember that english is not so fluent. 1) the colour of bass string in old paintings cannot be a proof. I consider these evidences just as a good integration to the theory of the loading of gut because: a) lute bass strings are painted with very thin gauges; this is different in the case of the bowed instruments b) Lute bass strings, when are dyed, are more or less in the same position of our modern wound strings. In other worlds in the position were the Quality Working Index is less of a certain critical value beyond it for modern luteplayers a gut string became dull (the 5th course). c) the colour of such basses (I am a chemicol as well as a stringmaker) recall me those of the heavier ppowder pigments of the 17th c.; oncemore it is identical for all the bass stings d) the dying of silk was never called 'in the past loading of silk' but just 'dying of silk'. yes, silk can add till 300% of its initial weight; the problem is that there is an increase of its volume also. I mea that the density do not increase so much. I have spent some 5 years on such investigation. At the end I understood that it was not a way. Maybe there are different opinions. I would like to hear alternatives -- 2) I checked 70 lutes from which only 50% I had to suppose with original bridges. On the total, 13 were 13 course -lutes (not important here); 13 were 11 course lutes (d minor, of course) ; 3 with 10 course, 1 with 12 courses and short extended neck (like the Gaultier English engraving or like the Satoh's lute); 2 with 7 courses; 2 with 8 courses. Just one was a Liuto attiorbato of 13 courses and another was an archlute. I tryed out more or less 10 theorbo/chitarrone hole-gauges also. The working tension of the 11 course lutes was calculate ( By Epraim Segerman, not by me) in a range between 1.2 till 1.5 Kg ( at the standard pitch of 415 Hz). Pleaswe note that, on some french lutes, the pitch would be arround a semitone lower so the tension is again lower than 1.2-1.5 kg. Epraim Segerman made some accurate calcuations based on low twist gut strings, NOT on roped strings that are still considered the only teneable historical alternative than the loading of gut. Now, considering that the roped string's density is lower than plain gut ( the average is 1.2 agaist 1.3 of plain gut if the roped string is smooth) the working tension drop again to 1.0 till a maximum of 1.2 if we are speacking of a polished smooth roped string and again to .9 till 1.0 Kg if the roped string is bumped (average density 1.1) That is all. My question: why none, since today tried to put their roped basses at 1.0 - 1.2 Kg? and tell us the results This test is very important. I tryed, of course and I verifyed that they becamerubber -bands. Please note that the problem is still open also if you play closer to the bridge: in any case a well stretched tumb (historical way) go toward to the rose. The so called 'low tension' of Satoh (2.5kg about) is still too high for those bridgeho
[LUTE] Re: In Italia
Yes, the town is the same. it was also a very important stringmaking -place quoted by Le Roy. There is a lutenist that live in that town. I had no the courage to phone him just to see about him. The situation is very hard. Mimmo Roman Turovsky ha scritto: There is at least one lutenist living in that town. RT - Original Message - From: "Leonard Williams" [1] To: "Lute List" [2] Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] In Italia Ai nostri soci in Italia--i nostri profondi pensieri sono con voi. State bene. La citt`a l'Aquila: e la stessa di Marco dall'Aquila? Saluti, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Messaggio e-mail verificato da Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Versione database: 5.12140 [4]http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - [5]www.avg.com Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.47/2047 - Release Date: 04/08/09 05:53 :00 Messaggio e-mail verificato da Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Versione database: 5.12140 [6]http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ Messaggio e-mail verificato da Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Versione database: 5.12140 [7]http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ -- References 1. mailto:arc...@verizon.net 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ 5. http://www.avg.com/ 6. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ 7. http://www.pctools.com/it/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
[LUTE] information
Dear lute friends, In my message of April 26, 2005 under the title: 'Aquila Corde Armoniche is changed' I wrote that mr L.G. and mrs P. M. left the company and greet everyone. Unfortunately they have not appreciated my intention; this because I haven't asked them the permission to cite their names. I'm here now to hapologies to them and to all of you of the list. Mimmo Peruffo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: barto lute stringing
Hi Taco, I am working on such problem since few years. I am quite sure that, at the Weiss' time, basses were open wound on gut cores. No plain gut at all: simply it do not work. I have made some samples of such open wound strings and I must say that they are very interesting. There are a lot of thecnical and musical 18th C. sources that permit this conclusion: that d minor bass lute strings were open wound on gut cores. First: the first mention of silk bass cores is of 1760's (Corrette): before this time wound strings were always made with gut cores Second: the thinner metal wire of the 18th c. was in the region of 0.12-0.13 mm before stretching (I mean before winding on the core: it get thinner of a certain ammount). As consequence, in the4 range of 2.5-3.0 Kg, was not possible to produce any close wound strings in the region of 6th, 7th, 8th and, easily, 9th bass course. Third: after le Cocq (1724) the so called 'demifilè (open wound strings) must be made taking in consideration that the space between two metal turns must be the same of the wire gauge or just a bit more. Fourth: some guitar methods suggested to cover the same gauge of the octave paied to obtain the bass string of the course I have made samples of such strings following all the historical indications. Tghe sound is completely different than the modern ones This is why need still a deep work in matter of historical d minor lute stringings: the sound is very deep on the fondamental while it last less time than the modern basses. As consequence it is indispensable put the little finger close to the bridge. Mimmo > Listening to a recordings of Weiss and Hagen by Roberto Barto I have been > wondering several times what kind of strings were on his lute. Sometimes > it > sounds like gut sometimes it's quite "un" -gut. The difference is very > clear > if you listen for example to recordings by Toyohikoh Satoh who uses low > tension gut strings on all his lutes resulting in a short warm bass sound, > something which can also be heared on early recordings by Hopkinson smith > on > his 17th century lute. It's no question about the marvelous technique of > playing and interpretation by Barto, but I surely prefer the sound Satoh's > lute. > Now I came across the explanation: Barto uses nylon for the two > topstrings, > gut for some other strings, Savarez again for bass strings with gut > octaves. > What would be the purpose of that? > It's cheaper, but I don't think that is an explanation here. > Taco > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] test
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[LUTE] Re: Theorbo strings
Hello, I would kindly suggest to all our customers not to confuse internal chat of lute society with pretty private questions concerning customer and company. The statement "What has happend with Aquilla?" could cause false allarms to guys and to our customers. For this specific case the problem should indeed be reverted: 'What has happened to Anton Hoger'? He placed his order on 08.10.12. The strings were ready in few hours. We mailed him to inform him that the strings were ready on 15/10, 22/10, 26.10, 4/11, 10/11. We riceived no reply. My best regards Marry Christmas! MP -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Nylgut test as Chanterelle
Thank you so much about your help Anthony. This morning I made 100 Kg almost of the Nw Nylgut strings with the extruder machine. Yesterday I made the NGE type. Now we need to rectify them ( 5-6 days almost of work) and package them, that is quite a tedious operation Please give me a bit of time more; I hope to be able to send such strings to distributors just after Cristamas. I amm working to do a good stock so all will be happy. Mimmo ginal Message - From: [1]Anthony Hind To: [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 1:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: New Nylgut test as Chanterelle Dear Mark They are available here in Europe, I saw quite a good stock at Wolfgang Frueh's when I got several strings; but Mimmo apparently sold all his stock at the Greenwich festival. He was making up new stock, but I don't know whether any had been sent out to the US prior to this. I don't know how fast synthetic string making can be? It has to be extruded (which should be quick), but then perhaps also semi-rectified. I don't know whether all this is automated, or partly by hand; but I did hear that two machines were out of order, recently which slowed production down. Then of course the strings must be packaged, posted etc. Aquila is not a huge company, perhaps 30 or so people involved in the NG side of things (I would guess); but possibly somethings have to be done by Mimmo himself. Certianly all the chemical research and testing will have had to be done by Mimmo himself. $ It is normal practice to have a few people test prototype strings (usually the same people), and I imagine there may have been feedback and slight changes, before the strings were deemed ready for sale to the wider public; when further sets of strings may have again been sent out to verifiy probable reactions. Sometimes, production goes no further than these initial tests. $ I remember when Dan Larson was attempting to make tungsten gimped strings only a few lutenists had the chance to try them, I believe there were even a few gold wire ones. I assume production was finally thought to be too expensive, as I believe reactions were quite positive to the sound of those strings. $ I feel sure things will quickly become as it was with the old NG. It is not really surprising if there is a slight stutter as things swing into motion. $ Regards Anthony __ De : "[3]gonzornumpl...@roadrunner.com" <[4]gonzornumpl...@roadrunner.com> A : Anthony Hind <[5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; [6]dwinh...@comcast.net Cc : [7]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Lun 20 decembre 2010, 3h 31min 16s Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: New Nylgut test as Chanterelle Curtis Daily of Portland, OR reports that he does not know as yet when he will receive a shipment of NNGs. Luckily, those most worthy are given them by the string gods, and have generously reported their virtues. Thank you, Ed and David. Mark Seifert Anthony Hind <[1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >Dear Dan > I am glad this may be a help, but I see you have far more >experience of nylon strings than I have, so you may not come to quite >the same conclusions as I did. >$ >I wonder whether the Adario string was titanium T2 nylon with purple >haze? If so it might have something in common with Titanium Nylon >fishing line. It would be quite low density allowing a thicker string >for the same weight (as I mentionned, once before). However, I think >the T2 could seem quite reserved, if compared to the NNG; or the NNG >might be heard as quite bright when compared to Ti Nylon (which ever >you are used to, possibly). >$ >The NNG go down to 1.04, I think. >$ >The US distributor seems to be >[1][2]http://www.aquilausa.com/ >but I don't know whether they will have the new string. >$ >Best wishes from snow-sludgy Paris >Anthony >$ >$ > >Daniel Winheld >Sun, 19 Dec 2010 09:12:34 -0800 > Thank you, Anthony- just the kind of report that you do so well, and > your results will spur me on to ge
[LUTE] loaded Nylgut
Hello to all guys, Two days ago I was able to do nylgut heavier So I made am little batch of strings just for some tests These samples are, at present, of graphite's grey colour ( due to the metallic powder I used to charge Nylgut); however I will do some changes in the colour. A few observations: 1) a 1,14 mm diameter string is equivalent to a 1.36 gut string. This mean that the loaded nylgut is virtually able to cover till the 6 course on renaissance lutes. Or on 6 & 7th fetted courses on long theorboes ( that often need wound strings). I tried the loaded nylgut like classical guitar 3rd with good results. I wonder how they work on the 13 till 14th long theorbo diapasons My job is not at the end: I still need to change some extruder's paramethers just to obtain the best performances. If things will work in the proper way maybe there is , soon, a new alternative to fluorocarbon and wound strings for the 4, 5 6th courses, lond diapasons etc. My best regards Mimmo Peruffo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: unexpected phenomenon with Aquila 'shiny' nylgut
Hello guys Mimmo here. a few answers to the question: 1) the shiny smooth nylgut was done to have stronger nylgut strings for the guges thinner of .46 mm. Unfortunately, 90% almost of players were not happy due to the slippering surfce. It was a pity because making them in this way produce very strong strings. They go up in tune very fast also The problem is that sometime they are not even and this is why they are sharp on the upper frets. They are made directly from the extruder. 2) we stopped to produce the tradictional rectified ones because the thinner gauges were too fragile. Right now I have not understand why. Actually they are very robust when they are polisshed and smooth but after the rectification process they change and became less strong. I tried a lot of solutions but with no good results. I agree that the texture is not the best however i can do a better work when I will have time for them. Rigfht now I am going to finish my job with the harp strings because there is a very urgent problem to solve in this field. In short: the gut avalaible for these instruments -since a few years- is very fragile- So many asked me to 'invent' a way to have a syntetic that work similar to this very stiff and oververnished gut ( nylgut is not o: too bright). The only alternative is the standard nylon that it si not good at all. 3) loaded gut basses it is not possible to make the ol loaded gut because the raw gut is still not like in the past. This problem afect many stringmakers but they do not admit this for obvious things. HOWEVER, things are going to change: here in Italy we are going to produce very good quality of gut ribbons, same of the quality of the past. This job is not fst because there are people and money involved. 4) what about the sintetic loaded strings? I have all the know- how to produce the sintetic loded bass strings. My problem is that I am very busy with the harps strings, as mentione before. Fluocabon strings are ok of course however i wonder what will happen when you will hear the sound of these sintetic loded strings. I am very excited to start to make these ones because I heard some prototypes on lutes & theorboes and they are excellent, ( to my feel almost) timing? well, to be honest i think that the harp strings will take to me 3 months almost. yes yes, I told this thing againg in the past but in those times I hd no idea how desperate the harp string situation was. In November I will attend the EM festival in Greenwich: my dream is to came with all these news on the table Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Matthew Daillie Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 12:25 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] unexpected phenomenon with Aquila 'shiny' nylgut Dear All, I have just changed some strings on my 6-course in a'. For the top two courses I used some nylgut strings from July 2014. These are the shiny, smooth nylgut strings Aquila produced for a year or so before they went back to the previous formula, apparently after complaints from lute-players that the new strings didn't have enough surface texture! I have tried an awful lot of nylgut strings over the years (there have been umpteen formulas, although Aquila didn't always publicize the fact) and to my mind these were by far the best for top strings: they were clear, true (except for the first batches), spoke freely all the way up the fingerboard, were very close to gut tensions for a given diameter, were extremely durable and could be put up to pitch and be stable almost immediately. A great pity they stopped producing them. Anyway, because I don't have many left, I decided to use one 0.44 diameter string cut in two for the second course of my lute (which has a 53 cm string length). To my surprise, one of the strings was incredibly sharp going up the fingerboard. This morning I put it on the other way round and it was fine! I have had similar experiences with some wound and gut strings but I am very surprised that this should happen with a small diameter nylgut string (maybe this was an unmentioned issue which led to ceased production). Any thoughts, comments? Thanks, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Early 'Synthetic gut'
If the piece of string is longh enought you can try yourshelf. The mean problem is that the bow slipper on the string. I tryed to rectify the string in edifferent gradations of grain with no results. I sudued also a special rosin with scarce results. I also added a bit of abrasive filers during the estrusion: no positive results. You can try to pluck the polyester PET string and you will recognize that it is very dull. My opinion is that it is too early to try conclusions about polyester strings. You metioned the Eph's Gutlon... this is not the common PET polyester but PBT that ctually is basically Nylgut Need more evicenves, in any case pratical tests shows clearly what happen It is 8 years almost that I am trying to replace gut with sintetics for bowed instruments with no results. However a 66 nylgut as violin 1st is a FANTASTIC string. it is a pity that you cannot have a good & stable bow attak... Mimmo From: [1]Martyn Hodgson Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2016 5:23 PM To: [2]Mimmo ; [3]alexander Cc: [4]Lute List Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Early 'Synthetic gut' Yes Mimmo - the piece I have is indeed stiff. But when you say it doesn't work on bowed instruments, it may not have caught on big time but it's surely it is surely interesting that an established British musical (and tennis!) string maker was offering these for violins in around 1950/60s - so clearly some people thought they were OK. MH __ From: Mimmo To: alexander Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Lute List Sent: Saturday, 4 June 2016, 15:55 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Early 'Synthetic gut' It Is easily polyester called PET Whose density is like gut. It is still today in use on racquet strings because it is very strong . Unfortunately does not not work like musical,strings. It is too stiff --- Plastic strings or Monofilaments do not work on bowed instruments. I done a lot of tests and gived up a certain point Ciao Mimmo > Il giorno 04 giu 2016, alle ore 16:33, alexander <[5]voka...@verizon.net> ha scritto: > > > Great news! What you have there, is some blend of polyester. This is > the way it burns (silk will never leave a long burnt section), it's been > used for tennis rackets string since 1950s as monofilament, as well > as multifilament, its' specific gravity is 1.38 against nylon's 1.13 > (1.3 for gut and 1.33 for silk), which fits the suggested diameter. > Do I recall correctly someone on the list used polyester for some lute > strings?.. > > As far as the smell, you can burn some polyester shirt sleeve for > further testing... > > alexander r. > > On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 13:40:42 + (UTC) > Martyn Hodgson <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > >> I've just done the match test you suggested. >> The 'synthetic gut' string caught fire reasonably quickly with some >> smoke but easily gently blown out. It left the length (about an inch) >> as a blackened thread which when touched crumpled to dust. There was >> a distinctive smell which didn't remind me of anything else in >> particular. I then conducted the same experiment of a plain nylon >> string: this caught fire almost immediately and burnt much brighter >> and liquid nylon fell from the end in flaming drops (one drop >> clumsily onto a finger - v. painful!). Not so much smell. So your >> guess is as good as mine; is the 'synthetic gut' a type of nylon or >> not? But, if it is a truly synthetic string, then it's not plain >> nylon but I suggest a material with density close to gut and indeed, >> quite possibly slightly higher since the diameter (0.92mm) is >> slightly less than that of most modern plain gut violin third d >> string (typically in the range 0.95 to 1.05mm). So was this some >> form of early 'nylgut'?.. if not the 'acribelle' I thought it >> might possibly be MH >> >> From: alexander <[7]voka...@verizon.net> >> To: Martyn Hodgson <[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> Cc: Lute List <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Saturday, 4 June 2016, 12:01 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Early 'Synthetic gut' >> >> >> >> Regarding synthetic gut from the 1950s, I doubt they would be silk >> based. The time and "tennis" strongly suggest that it is actually >> nylon, rectified on a rough wheel not to slip under the bow (or tennis >> ball). I have encountered similar strings from the 50s for bass viol, >> claiming "synthetic gut" on packaging, being old yellowing nylon. >> It is quite easy to find out once and for all. Take a match (or better >> yet, gas lighter) to it. A silk based string will result in a slightly >> enlarged blackened "ball" on the end, with a clear burnt-wool smell, >> but will never melt. If silk was treate
[LUTE] Re: Early 'Synthetic gut'
Hi Martyn, right now I am working on syntetic modern harp strings. --- Well, I have in aim to work on the syntetic loaded lute bass strings as soon as posible. Maybe August or September. I have all the machines necessary for such operation and also the technology and the process now. The problem is to have spare time for this tedious job. And this can hapen only when i finish to work on the harp strings I know, I told these same things other times. Unfortunately, I had to work on classical guitar strings However, this time there is a dead line that is the Greenwich E M festival in the next November. I would like to attend this festival with the syntetic loaded lute basses as well as the harp new strings and maybe the new production of gut strings. YES, the situation here in Italy is much more better about the raw material and this can open new mice things about the string quality for all the stringmakers My dream is to be able to restart with the gut loded strings again (only for bowed instruments because the syntetic version of the loaded strings will be enought for plucked instruments) as well as the lute gut i1st strings: In the past I was lucky/able to reack 310 Hz/mt of breacking index and a lifetime till 2 months. Lynda Sayce can withness what I say and so some other guys. Unfortunately in those times I was able to make just a few quantity; then the raw gut quality became worse & worse. What a pity! In my previous post there are a lot of print mistakes: maybe it is time to change this old keyboard! Take care Mimmo From: [1]Martyn Hodgson Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2016 8:38 AM To: [2]Mimmo Peruffo ; [3]alexander Cc: [4]Lute List Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Early 'Synthetic gut' Many thanks Mimmo - it is good to know that all the string avenues are being fully explored by experts like yourself and Alexander. I live in hope that when you've time you may return to developing synthetic 'loaded gut'. That is something similar to your excellent Nylgut but with a greater density and even a bit of twist to further aid elasticity. I still have some of your old terrific loaded gut and think they are the best lute bass strings I ever used but, of course, they did tend to fray rather which limited their life. Where are you with work on loaded strings nowadays? Both loaded gut and possibly synthetic 'loaded gut'? Many thanks for all your continuing R & D work on strings regards Martyn __________ From: Mimmo Peruffo To: Martyn Hodgson ; alexander Cc: Lute List Sent: Saturday, 4 June 2016, 17:12 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Early 'Synthetic gut' If the piece of string is longh enought you can try yourshelf. The mean problem is that the bow slipper on the string. I tryed to rectify the string in edifferent gradations of grain with no results. I sudued also a special rosin with scarce results. I also added a bit of abrasive filers during the estrusion: no positive results. You can try to pluck the polyester PET string and you will recognize that it is very dull. My opinion is that it is too early to try conclusions about polyester strings. You metioned the Eph's Gutlon... this is not the common PET polyester but PBT that ctually is basically Nylgut Need more evicenves, in any case pratical tests shows clearly what happen It is 8 years almost that I am trying to replace gut with sintetics for bowed instruments with no results. However a 66 nylgut as violin 1st is a FANTASTIC string. it is a pity that you cannot have a good & stable bow attak... Mimmo From: [5]Martyn Hodgson Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2016 5:23 PM To: [6]Mimmo ; [7]alexander Cc: [8]Lute List Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Early 'Synthetic gut' Yes Mimmo - the piece I have is indeed stiff. But when you say it doesn't work on bowed instruments, it may not have caught on big time but it's surely it is surely interesting that an established British musical (and tennis!) string maker was offering these for violins in around 1950/60s - so clearly some people thought they were OK. MH __ From: Mimmo To: alexander Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Lute List Sent: Saturday, 4 June 2016, 15:55 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Early 'Synthetic gut' It Is easily polyester called PET Whose density is like gut. It is still today in use on racquet strings because it is very strong . Unfortunately does not not work like musical,strings. It is too stiff --- Plastic strings or Monofilaments do not work on bowed instruments. I done a lot of tests and gived up a
[LUTE] about the new sintetic loaded lute basses
Hi All, I would like to share with you the sound of these very new lute basses: https://www.facebook.com/mperuffo/videos/10211568687754149/ I am aware of course that I am not a professional luteplayer; oncemore I have not any daily practice. However, anyone can have an idea ow they perform on my baroque lute. The paired octaves fit quite well with the bass string giving the impression of a single string. All the best Mimmo Peruffo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
Well, a sustain of 20 seconds or so on is very impossible even with modern wound strings, whose density is 5 times plain gut: i remember that the modern wound strings has the best gain over all the bass strings types. Mersenne wrote that he is mentioning the last bass string; i.e. the ticker. In the Harmonie Universelle there are a lot of mistakes. One concerning gut: the Mersenne's calculation give a breacking stress of 19 Kg/ mm2 while it should be of 34 Kg/mm2 almost. And so on with metal wire calculations, the equal tension on harps and spinette etc etc. One thing is to consider 20 second of sound and another thing is that the vibration of the string lasted till 20 seconds. I am thinking that it is the second case; i.e. the vibration of the string whas so long, not the sound. So one can hear the sound in the first seconds and then one see the vibration of the string till its stop. I think that this is the only interpretetation that can work. In any case, generally speacking, this mean that these basses were very very efficients. The elasticity only is not in condition the explain this behaviour. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Jean-Marie Poirier Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2017 9:46 PM To: Christopher Wilke ; Rob MacKillop ; 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain The exact quotation from Mersenne is : "...le son des grosses chordes de Luth est apperceu de l'oreille durant la sixiesme partie, ou le tiers d'une minute, c'est à dire pendant que l'artère du poux d'un homme sain, & sans emotion bat dix, ou vingt fois..." which can be roughly translated by : the sound of the big strings of a Lute is perceived by the ear during the sixth part, or a third of a minute, that is to say as long as the pulse of a healthy man, without emotion, beats ten, or twenty times..." Amicalement, Jean-Marie -- Hi Rob, What exactly is the quote in Mersenne about the 20 second sustain? Although my French is very poor, I've attempted to find it to no avail. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, January 8, 2017, 10:59 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: Here's a very short video comparing the sustain time of a new Aquila Loaded Nylgut string and a Savarez copper-wound nylon-silk core bass string. [1][2]https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0 My ears hear better than the microphone, and the useable sustain on the Aquila string is 4 seconds, while the Savarez is a long 8 seconds. With the Savarez, you will be required to stop pretty much every note you play in the bass. With the Aquila, less so. The Aquila do remind me of gut basses. I used to have an 11c completely strung in gut, and these loaded nylgut strings are very, very close. On the other hand...Mersenne says his basses sustain for almost 20 seconds!!! I'll stick with the Aquila. Rob -- References 1. [3]https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0 To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://yho.com/footer0 2. https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0 3. https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
thanks Rob at present I have some troubles with the extruder plant. I do not know why but i am not able to do a new stock I hope to solve the problem soon. In ther meantime two gearpumps broken. Heck! This job is crazy, plastics are crazy: the change their behaviours over night! Ciao Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Rob MacKillop Sent: Monday, January 09, 2017 8:49 AM To: Mimmo Peruffo Cc: Lute List Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain Good comments, Mimmo. I must say I am impressed with the Loaded Nylgut strings, and will definitely use them on from 6th to 13th courses. Congratulations on creating a very good string. Rob On 9 Jan 2017, at 07:24, Mimmo Peruffo wrote: Well, a sustain of 20 seconds or so on is very impossible even with modern wound strings, whose density is 5 times plain gut: i remember that the modern wound strings has the best gain over all the bass strings types. Mersenne wrote that he is mentioning the last bass string; i.e. the ticker. In the Harmonie Universelle there are a lot of mistakes. One concerning gut: the Mersenne's calculation give a breacking stress of 19 Kg/ mm2 while it should be of 34 Kg/mm2 almost. And so on with metal wire calculations, the equal tension on harps and spinette etc etc. One thing is to consider 20 second of sound and another thing is that the vibration of the string lasted till 20 seconds. I am thinking that it is the second case; i.e. the vibration of the string whas so long, not the sound. So one can hear the sound in the first seconds and then one see the vibration of the string till its stop. I think that this is the only interpretetation that can work. In any case, generally speacking, this mean that these basses were very very efficients. The elasticity only is not in condition the explain this behaviour. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Jean-Marie Poirier Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2017 9:46 PM To: Christopher Wilke ; Rob MacKillop ; 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain The exact quotation from Mersenne is : "...le son des grosses chordes de Luth est apperceu de l'oreille durant la sixiesme partie, ou le tiers d'une minute, c'est à dire pendant que l'artère du poux d'un homme sain, & sans emotion bat dix, ou vingt fois..." which can be roughly translated by : the sound of the big strings of a Lute is perceived by the ear during the sixth part, or a third of a minute, that is to say as long as the pulse of a healthy man, without emotion, beats ten, or twenty times..." Amicalement, Jean-Marie -- Hi Rob, What exactly is the quote in Mersenne about the 20 second sustain? Although my French is very poor, I've attempted to find it to no avail. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, January 8, 2017, 10:59 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: Here's a very short video comparing the sustain time of a new Aquila Loaded Nylgut string and a Savarez copper-wound nylon-silk core bass string. [1][2]https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0 My ears hear better than the microphone, and the useable sustain on the Aquila string is 4 seconds, while the Savarez is a long 8 seconds. With the Savarez, you will be required to stop pretty much every note you play in the bass. With the Aquila, less so. The Aquila do remind me of gut basses. I used to have an 11c completely strung in gut, and these loaded nylgut strings are very, very close. On the other hand...Mersenne says his basses sustain for almost 20 seconds!!! I'll stick with the Aquila. Rob -- References 1. [3]https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0 To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://yho.com/footer0 2. https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0 3. https://youtu.be/8FVJMk_Xjv0 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
Sorry to the list it was a private message to Rop, I sent it also to the list for mistake Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
I am lucky: I have seen /installed strings on some hundreds od lutes in these last years. Maybe I can be in mistake, but I have never seen a lute, whose basses are roped strings or even loaded roped strings, whose sustain is so long. Even with modern Pyramid nylon wound strings (they have in absolute the higher density) . I would like to know if here there is somebody that can have a positive experience in matter. At present I would stick that Mersenne meant how many time last the vibration, not the sound. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Matthew Daillie Sent: Monday, January 09, 2017 10:52 AM To: Mimmo Peruffo Cc: Rob MacKillop ; Lute List Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain One thing nobody seems to have mentioned is the vast differences in sustain from one instrument to another. Maybe Mersenne's comments go to show just how good some lutes were at the time. If one was to rest a lute on the edge of a wooden table as they were wont to do at the time, then maybe those 20 seconds are not so unrealistic. Best, Matthew= To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
I understand... this is the point: we scholars have done a long list of conceptual and practical mistakes done by Mersenne in his book. This mean that he must be taken with a grain of salt. Of course, he done a great job with his monumental treatise and it is very usefull also. I am a strict follower of Galileo Galilei's thinking: any affermation should be verified by pratical tests made by us. Well, I done these tests. with a gut roped loaded string we are in order of a few seconds, we are very far form a third of minutes mentioned by him. it is a bit more with modern wound strings ( 10 seconds, or around it) Now, why -a 5 time dense than gut- nylon wound string should have less sustain than an all gut string whose density is a lot less? This is against the phisics laws, not to our personal opinions. Mine too. - Maybe those strings were so well done to justify a lot of things: but they cannot be done so good to be better than any modern wound string. This because the sustain is relate to elasticity and density. Ciao! Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Jean-Marie Poirier Sent: Monday, January 09, 2017 11:42 AM To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie Cc: Rob MacKillop ; 'Lute List' Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain Not sure about that Mimmo... Mersenne is a scientist, therefore a precise observer and his observations are worth considering seriously. When he describes the duration of the sound of the bass stings of a lute, he takes care to precise ""...le son des grosses chordes de Luth est apperceu de l'oreille durant la sixiesme partie, ou le tiers d'une minute...", the sound is preceived by the ear for 10 to 20 seconds. And a few lines further he says : "...Il n'y a nul doute que la chorde se meut encore long-temps après que l'oreille en perd le son..." = there is no doubt that the strings still moves a long time after the ear has lost its sound. So he is not confusing vibration and sound, not at all ! Now, as Matthew remarked, we don't know about the conditions in which the test was done. If the lute is laid on a table, it might certainly influence the parameters of the experience... Best, Jean-Marie -- I am lucky: I have seen /installed strings on some hundreds od lutes in these last years. Maybe I can be in mistake, but I have never seen a lute, whose basses are roped strings or even loaded roped strings, whose sustain is so long. Even with modern Pyramid nylon wound strings (they have in absolute the higher density) . I would like to know if here there is somebody that can have a positive experience in matter. At present I would stick that Mersenne meant how many time last the vibration, not the sound. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Matthew Daillie Sent: Monday, January 09, 2017 10:52 AM To: Mimmo Peruffo Cc: Rob MacKillop ; Lute List Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain One thing nobody seems to have mentioned is the vast differences in sustain from one instrument to another. Maybe Mersenne's comments go to show just how good some lutes were at the time. If one was to rest a lute on the edge of a wooden table as they were wont to do at the time, then maybe those 20 seconds are not so unrealistic. Best, Matthew= To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
maybe it is better to give you guys a few more informations:
yes, I am out of stock due to some problems: the first one is that the
plastic blend nd copper powder changes some behaviours. This is common
when one exstrude plastics. I worked hard to understand why in these
15 days and then when I was able to realize why, guess that? The
extruder broke the gear pump! heck. Just yesterday (yes, Sunday) I
was in condition to find another way that is working pretty good
but... my co-worker at the extruder right now has flu! another
stopah ah. Do not worry: tomorrow I will do this job alone. their
lifetime? I think that they last forever. I am sorry, the sound do not
last 20 seconds
From: [1]Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2017 6:02 PM
To: [2]Dan Winheld
Cc: [3]Anthony Hind ; [4]Matthew Daillie ; [5]Mimmo Peruffo ; [6]Rob
MacKillop ; [7]Lute List
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
and my guess is that these strings may last forever..
Bruno
2017-01-09 11:56 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[8]dwinh...@lmi.net>:
Fascinating thread! I am delighted that after over 40 years in the
lute "business" (even mostly amateur) that good bass strings may be
emerging as an obtainable, affordable, predictable, and PRACTICAL
reality. Mimmo Peruffo is to be congratulated for all his work over
all these years.
Now, can anyone tell me if the new basses are now available in the
U.S?
Thank you all-
To get on or off this list see list information at
[9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com
2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
3. mailto:agno3ph...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
5. mailto:mperu...@aquilacorde.com
6. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com
7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
ah! right
thanks Jan. see you at Paris in April?
Takin beer togheter
Mimmo
From: [1]jmpoirier2
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 9:31 AM
To: [2]Mimmo Peruffo ; [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: RE : [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
Dear Mimmo,
No problem at all about the duration of sound with your strings. I
agree with Bruno Cognyl-Fournier : we are all very grateful - or we
should be - for your brilliant a d continuous efforts to improve the
quality of synthetic strings and the discussion about Mersenne and all
that is only a way to satisfy our scholarly egos ð! But please keep up
the good work and thank you again for everything you do to help us
pluckers to improve our performances of early music!
Best wishes da Francia,
Jean-Marie
Message d'origine
De : Mimmo Peruffo
Date : 09/01/2017 6:33 PM (GMT+01:00)
à : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
maybe it is better to give you guys a few more informations:
yes, I am out of stock due to some problems: the first one is that
the
plastic blend nd copper powder changes some behaviours. This is
common
when one exstrude plastics. I worked hard to understand why in
these
15 days and then when I was able to realize why, guess that? The
extruder broke the gear pump! heck. Just yesterday (yes, Sunday) I
was in condition to find another way that is working pretty good
but... my co-worker at the extruder right now has flu! another
stopah ah. Do not worry: tomorrow I will do this job alone.
their
lifetime? I think that they last forever. I am sorry, the sound do
not
last 20 seconds
From: [1]Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2017 6:02 PM
To: [2]Dan Winheld
Cc: [3]Anthony Hind ; [4]Matthew Daillie ; [5]Mimmo Peruffo ; [6]Rob
MacKillop ; [7]Lute List
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Aquila Loaded Nylgut sustain
and my guess is that these strings may last forever..
Bruno
2017-01-09 11:56 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[8]dwinh...@lmi.net>:
Fascinating thread! I am delighted that after over 40 years in the
lute "business" (even mostly amateur) that good bass strings may
be
emerging as an obtainable, affordable, predictable, and PRACTICAL
reality. Mimmo Peruffo is to be congratulated for all his work
over
all these years.
Now, can anyone tell me if the new basses are now available in
the
U.S?
Thank you all-
To get on or off this list see list information at
[9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com
2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
3. mailto:agno3ph...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
5. mailto:mperu...@aquilacorde.com
6. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com
7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
2. mailto:mperu...@aquilacorde.com
3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Dear Bruno, The problem can have different explanations the first one: the string. have you tried to install in the opposite? it became sharper or not? Why a string can give this problem? maybe the string has defect, maybe the defect was introduced during the tuning. I have seen this thing a lot of time with our elastomer bass ukulele strings for example, have you pulled it exactly on the 12 fret (so the stretch is balanced on both side of the string) or maybe on one side only, maybe close to the bridge? In the second situation the string became unbalanced (the gauge reduced in that portion of string) and can be flat; if you pulled it close to the bridge or sharp if you pulled it on the first frets. this problem can happen with softer struings like CD are. You mention statistic: well, this is the first complain. I had some concerning the very thin gor the 5 and 6 courses. I fixed the problem. in any case please consider that this is the first version, the second version will be less stretchly No problem at all for replaces. It is my job. I will do it starting form tomorrow (I have finished my job trips and some very urgent harp string production). On my lute I have not this problem, maybe because my octaves are gut and roped gut for the ticker ones? well, I will do a video for my FB page so things will be better explained.I will show the intonation on frets of my 6 and 7 courses CiaoMimmo -Original Message- From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 12:28 AM To: Dan Winheld Cc: Arto Wikla ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves Hello all So I tested the strings individually ,making sure first that the frets were adjusted for one string properly... and conclusion is that the loaded CD nylgut goes flat as you go up the scale on the neck...by the time I get to the 7th fret I no longer have a perfect fifth. My gut string stays in tune all the way up, and so does the regular nylgut. I have a feeling part of the problem is the elasticity of the loaded nylgut. Mimmo has to investigate this . Bruno 2017-02-28 15:21 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>: yes it is the first time I use non wound strings on my basses. I have used gut octaves for 30 years and have never had the problem, at least not to that extent.I understand the action can be part of the problem, although.I will test the pitch on the strings taken individually, however I suspect only one of the two strings is off pitch as you go up, and I've never had to match the tension exactly for both strings, although it could be part of the problem as well. Bruno 2017-02-28 15:06 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1][2]dwinh...@lmi.net>: Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD string specifically.It's a totally different feel, whether the thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist, loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)All fret more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ; assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave, and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this- e.g., very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same as historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond differently. Dan On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Hi Bruno No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves. Arto On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote: Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound string/gut comb
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
I have another opinion.In order to preserve the so called equal feel of tension the octave string of the two of the course must have more tension then the bass string. I suggest around 5% more. Why? because even if you calculated the two strings of the course with the same tension the thin octave string lost more percentage of its gauge than the thicker bass string. this mean that, when it is tuned, the real tension is less. the octaave string lost tension. In practice, you lost the equal feel of tension and the two strings do not blend togheter in the best way giving the impression that you are playing one string only. One must compensate this thing increasing the tension of a 5% almost: a course so aranged is much more better. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Matthew Daillie Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 8:49 AM To: Dan Winheld Cc: Miles Dempster ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves This is still very much a moot point. Some of the (numerous) interpretations of the recent discoveryof a possible period stringing list lead to the conclusion that octaves were strung at the same tension as fundamentals but it certainly hasn't been proven as far as I know. I find that slightly less tension on the octaves of a well set-up lute works fine if the strings don't have any defects (unfortunately a big 'if' regarding bass strings). Best Matthew On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:07, Dan Winheld wrote: We now know that the gut octaves must be the same tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & intonationally. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Yes, sometime my english is too fluent. well you understood correctly. example: 1.40 mm for the bass .70 mm for the octave This mean exactly an equal tension. But when you install them the octavestring drop its gauge more than the 140. In practice the best solution is to install a 73 instead a 70. This is the pratical way to solve the problem. Generally speacking, this compensation work very well on the most problematic course that is the 4th on renaissance lutes. having a thicket octave make te sound warmer and the struing blend togheter very well. at the end of the day there is no sources that explain what to do with the octaves. Maybe Gerle, if I well remember wrote someting in matter. here is what I discovered using whole guts (this well explain WHY the lute MUST be tuned in 4th and 3rd only if one has the goal to preserve the equal feel of tension between the first courses) 1 whole lamb gut: 1st course 2 whole lam guts: 2nd course 3 whole lam guts: 3rd course these strings,using 1,2,3 whole lamb guts became also the octaves for the 4,,5,6 courses. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Miles Dempster Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 1:45 PM To: Lute net Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves Mimmo, Just to see if I have understood you correctly, please confirm or correct the following statement, which tries to put your explanation in another way: If you want to have the octave at the same tension as the fundamental, you must choose a string whose thickness (before it is stretched) would apparently lead to 5% more tension. Once it is stretched, it will become thinner, and less tension will be needed to achieve the desired pitch. In summary, when choosing the string, try to estimate how thick it will need to be when under tension. Miles On Mar 1, 2017, at 3:30 AM, Mimmo Peruffo wrote: I have another opinion.In order to preserve the so called equal feel of tension the octave string of the two of the course must have more tension then the bass string. I suggest around 5% more. Why? because even if you calculated the two strings of the course with the same tension the thin octave string lost more percentage of its gauge than the thicker bass string. this mean that, when it is tuned, the real tension is less. the octaave string lost tension. In practice, you lost the equal feel of tension and the two strings do not blend togheter in the best way giving the impression that you are playing one string only. One must compensate this thing increasing the tension of a 5% almost: a course so aranged is much more better. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Matthew Daillie Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 8:49 AM To: Dan Winheld Cc: Miles Dempster ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves This is still very much a moot point. Some of the (numerous) interpretations of the recent discoveryof a possible period stringing list lead to the conclusion that octaves were strung at the same tension as fundamentals but it certainly hasn't been proven as far as I know. I find that slightly less tension on the octaves of a well set-up lute works fine if the strings don't have any defects (unfortunately a big 'if' regarding bass strings). Best Matthew On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:07, Dan Winheld wrote: We now know that the gut octaves must be the same tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & intonationally. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
Buno, came here and we will have space to take some good red wine or white prosecco, because I am in veneto and the Prosecco is the king here. Ah, and some hand made foods, of course. I have done a video for my FB were i have done some tests: my setup has not this kind of problem. However this do not mean that the problem do not exist. Here is: https://www.facebook.com/mperuffo/videos/10212851743109731/ How I have written, I would like to see how the strings were stretched just installed and in which point you pulled it. The best position is exactly in the middle of the string. said that, I would like to tell again that the official production of CD concerne the use of a stiffer elastomer, whose results are very good and solve a lot of problems. All the next week will be dedicate to make almost 800 CD string per gauge just to cover all the necessity and cover all these delays, even the thinner meanes problems are fixed. This mean, Bruno, that I would like to send you these ones and see what happen when you have installed them In any case please do one test for me: try to reverse a CD bass string and tell me if it became sharp. Thanks Mimmo -Messaggio originale- From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 3:33 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves Guys, This discussion is not about whether one should use pythagorean or equal temperament, it is about two strings in octavbles on the same course not being in tune together, by the time I've reached 5th fret, and the dissonance increases as I go beyond 5th fret. the only change I have done on both my G lutes, (57 cm and 60 cm tuned in 440hz), is to replace the wound string with CD loaded. The calculation was at 3 Kg tension for the fundamental CD loaded on the 5th course, and I ended up with a 115 CD, as neither 110 nor 112 was available, and frankly we are still eyeballing it since I have had no clear answer as to what the real tension was on those strings is. My octave remained as is, 5.0 gut, hence 2.5 kg.. (same gauge as my 2nd course) I guess I could try a thicker octave ( if I can find the right gauge in my SOFRACOB supply of strings..) as for the 6th course I have the same problem I have used SOFRACOB gut for 30 + years in combination with wound basses and never had the problem, I recently switched to nylgut and wound with no problem either, only when I put on the CD did I start having the problem. I suspect as mentioned before, that the real culprit is the elasticity of the CD and that I have not stretched it enough, I do agree that when I tune it up, it requires much more turning of the peg, as it doesn't instantly respond upwards. although stretching the string onto the peg prior to tuning is a bit of a challenge.. I will try turning it around to get it to stretch the other way as well, perhaps this will even out the string on its entire length. As I recall also from the numerous conversations about the CD, the recommendation was to go with a higher tension in order to have a less bouncy and rubber band effect. Mimmo, I do realize that this is a work in progress, and I do appreciate your offer to replace the strings, but before we do this I think the exact tension of the new strings should be calculated, and also compare the amount of stretch to standard nylgut or gut. The feedback I sent is not a criticism in any way on your work, I hope you understand that, but rather trying to understand what is happening and see how we can remedy the situation. Overall I find the strings interesting in sound, and I do like them more than wound strings. As I mentioned, I will be in Italy this summer near your area, so If you are in town I would really like to see you. I will not have my lute with me however, as it is inconvenient to take on the plane and I will be travelling around a lot and not have time to play. regards Bruno Cognyl-Fournier Montreal, Quebec 2017-02-28 12:56 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>: Dear Collective wisdom, I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound strings and gut or nylgut. recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two different lutes. I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I realize I rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying to figure out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound string/gut combinations. I will be testing each string individually to check w
[LUTE] bass lute strings update
Dear all, I have done the update version of these CD's they finally stretch less and slip on the nut very well. here is a few examples on the same lute: me on my lute (!): https://www.facebook.com/mperuffo/videos/10212919284678228/ with Xavier Diaz (maybe he is a better player than me! Maybe ...ah ah ): https://www.facebook.com/xavier.diazlatorre/videos/10210641815835546/ I am going to do the mass quantity. take care Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
