[LUTE] Re: LOTR
In einer eMail vom 28.04.2007 23:42:12 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > As it appears, Fodrid, Watcher of Roads, is playing the lute with > gloves? > > Mathias > >From what I have heard from a promoter from the software company, it is possible to play a number of instruments in the game including the lute. From what I understood the number keys allow you to play a musical scale. best wishes Mark P.S.I play WOW any other online gamers here, or just F1 fans? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: No Humour please, were (at the) BRITish (awards)
In einer eMail vom 09.04.2007 01:18:15 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > mark ... what are you on about? Hi, I didn't write the article, just wanted to show that the world outside may not see the "Sting" thing so positively as some here may view it. That's alll folks. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: No Humour please, were (at the) BRITish (awards)
In einer eMail vom 09.04.2007 01:09:30 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I looked in vain for Mark's "Citternists of Penzance" band nomination for > their album "Arf, arf". Hopefully next time. > Could't help it. > RT > Hi Roman, As you will probably noticed, I did not write the article, bit I do feel for you if the reality out there is too hard for you. But if we were to play some sort of cross-over as you seem to infer ( a genre that does not interest me at all) then we would have a big chance. Here are some of the nominees that sting is up against for the Brit Classic Album of the year... All Angels All Angels ( a "girl group" who sing pop songs and some classical evergreens) Katherine Jenkins Serenade ( a nice looking gal singing pop classics) Libera Angel Voices (Easy listening choir singing classical favorites with nice new lyrics, to keep your nan warm by the fire) The Fron Male Voice Choir Voices from the Valley ( A welsh choir singing unchained melody etc) Sadly we use HIP instruments and techniques, very little chance of ever being nominated, But even if that happened, maybe the same will happen to us as Joachim Held. He won a Echo here in Germany award for his latest lute CD and on the television presentation of the award you didn't see or hear about him, instead someone fumbled around on a single strung archlute All the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] No Humour please, were (at the) BRITish (awards)
Dear Lutenetters maybe of interest Classical Brits Old Man Face-Off: Sting Vs Paul McCartney http://www.hecklerspray.com/classical-brits-old-man-face-off-sting-vs-paul-mccartney-2/20067748.php/ All the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stung Again
HI, here is a video of "modern dance" and elizabethan music, Holborne and nor Dowland. http://youtube.com/watch?v=4EuqQ3CI-H4 As often in these sort of things, I tend to find that the "modern" elements seem quite dated and something more "HIP" would have a bit more "attitude". But if you want to get art's council funding it is probably safer to go for something nobody wants. So Dowland meets "modern dance" should get that financial support rolling in :) All the best mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: something totally different:)
Steve Hacket's recordings are 6 years earlier than "It's Late", but I am sure Mr Hacket was probably not the first to record this technique. best wishes Mark -Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Verschickt: Di., 13. Mrz. 2007, 15:25 Thema: [LUTE] Re: something totally different:) At 01:41 PM 3/12/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Eddie Van Halen is often thought of as the inventer of "tapping" on >electric guitar, but Steve Hacket had used it on the early Genesis albums >which are quite a few years before Van Halen. .Not to mention Brian May on "It's Late" (_News_of_the_World_, 1977) and (I believe it was: I can look it up when home from the office) Julian Arcas (in a way) in the mid 19th c. ...Although Arcas certainly wasn't electric. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Kostenlos: AOL eMail 2 GB Speicherplatz sowie erstklassiger Spam- und eMail Virenschutz. Sichern Sie sich Ihre pers=C3=B6nliche eMail Adresse noch heute! --
[LUTE] Re: something totally different:)
Eddie Van Halen is often thought of as the inventer of "tapping" on electric guitar, but Steve Hacket had used it on the early Genesis albums which are quite a few years before Van Halen. best wishes Mark -Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Verschickt: Mo., 12. Mrz. 2007, 17:58 Thema: [LUTE] Re: something totally different:) Hilarious.!! -Original Message- From: Chris Bolton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 March 2007 15:40 To: Narada Cc: Anton Birula; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: something totally different:) Eddie Van Halen was granted a U.S. Patent in 1987 for a device which supposedly makes this style of playing easier. The supporting pictures in the patent application are amusing. http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4656917 On 3/12/07, Narada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Eat your heart out Eddie Van Halen. :-)) > > NW > > -Original Message- > From: Anton Birula [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 12 March 2007 14:20 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] something totally different:) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSJ4tcVEDX4&mode=related&search> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4gEJc5tUi8&mode=related&search> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPoEFi_WdDk&mode=related&search> > > > > I love this kind of approach an just wanted to share > it:) > Best, Anton > > > > > > TV dinner still cooling? > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- Kostenlos: AOL eMail 2 GB Speicherplatz sowie erstklassiger Spam- und eMail Virenschutz. Sichern Sie sich Ihre pers=C3=B6nliche eMail Adresse noch heute! --
[LUTE] Re: Clatterford lute sighting
In einer eMail vom 04.03.2007 17:04:00 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Unless WE referred to her AND Mark Wheeler. > RT > Dear Roman, Well actually there are at least THREE of us. Have a look at... http://idolator.com/tunes/studio-60/the-demise-of-studio-60-proof-that-hiring-sting-is-a-didgeridont-211000.php http://idolator.com/tunes/sting/i-cant-stand-losing-you-an-open-letter-from-stings-lute-226317.php http://idolator.com/tunes/sting/stings-new-worldmusic-monstrosity-lute-there-it-is-202177.php I didn't know you were an expert on British wit I imagine you have done some editing on wikipedia, us British probably just stole our humour from Ukranian lute players and there has been a massive cover-up. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More on Sting
In einer eMail vom 28.02.2007 02:31:24 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Mark Wheeler's response is very much to the point. In the discussion at > the table, they had Sting, Edin, Rooley, and one more bearded person, who > appeared to be quite scholarly. Who is that person? > > ed The "quite scholary" person is David Pinto. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More on Sting again REVISED
Hi, I have just read my mail and realised that it didn't make much sense, what I meant was Mr. Rooley, says that he does not believe that Dowland was such a staunch Catholic and was not "paranoid" as Sting tries to describe him. Also that Dowland may have been a spy,something that Sting also does not want to hear. I had a look at the DVD version, which is maybe longer than the Television programme. The discussion is interesting because as Diana Poulton's book (have a look at pages 40-41) states being Catholic did not mean that you experienced the sort of persecution that Sting tries to suggest Dowland suffered.The funny thing is that the catholic musician Byrd has a wonderfully sucessful life under Elizabeth. Mr. Rooley's Early Music Magazine (January 1983) article "New light on John Dowland's songs of darkness" shows a very different view of Dowland not as the misunderstood paranoid, but as an artist who articulated ideas that form a central to the renaissance. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More on Sting
In einer eMail vom 27.02.2007 13:55:37 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > What did he have to say on the subject? > > david Mr Rooley, say that he does not believe that Dowland was not such a staunch Catholic and was not "paranoid" as Sting tries to describe him. Also that Dowland may have been a spy,something that Sting also does not want to hear. The discussion is quite funny. But the miming to playback for most of the show is quite dificult to top. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: meanrone fretting
Not the answer you were looking for, but surviving instruments with fitted frets such as citterns use meantone fretting. Someone on the list recommended R.W. Duffins book about the history of ET... "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony. And Why You Should Care " A very interesting book that shows that the extreme style of ET that is now in use is maybe less than 100 years the standard! All the best Mark -Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Verschickt: Mo., 26. Feb. 2007, 14:46 Thema: [LUTE] meanrone fretting hi all, is "meantone fretting" visible in lute pictures between 1500 and 1600? thanks wolfgang -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Kostenlos: AOL eMail 2 GB Speicherplatz sowie erstklassiger Spam- und eMail Virenschutz. Sichern Sie sich Ihre pers=C3=B6nliche eMail Adresse noch heute! --
[LUTE] Re: I joined the club of YouTube... ;-)
In einer eMail vom 20.02.2007 11:32:23 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > So I guess the problem must be somehow in the conversion programs > YouTube uses? Probably best to compress the videos somewhat before you send them to YouTube. Maybe your files are just too big for the compression programme they use. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: I joined the club of YouTube... ;-)
In einer eMail vom 20.02.2007 10:35:05 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > The synchronisation on YouTube is improved if you let the video clip > play a few seconds, then 'rewind' to the beginning and play again... > > Andrew > That doesn't seem to work here.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLtwm3JWGdk Just watched the new Fall Out Boy video and didn't notice this problem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vESeeJC-4nE best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: I joined the club of YouTube... ;-)
In einer eMail vom 19.02.2007 14:48:57 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Hi lute gang, > > I joined the YouTube senders... ;-) > > I put my Sarmaticae videos of 2005, the very big AVI files, to the > YouTube, too. The quality and especially synchronization are not of > very high quality in the YouTube, though... > Dear Arto, synchronization does seem to be a big problem with your videos, also with Roman's. Are you sure that the problem lies with YouTube? I think it probably is a problem with the webcam. But you should be able to put them back into sync with a video editing programme. By the way, I think the quality of the video transfer at MySpace may be slightly higher. Here is a short "home video" we recorded during a couple of concerts in England a few weeks ago. It was recorded with a small digital camera that has a video funtion, nothing very high-tech http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&; videoid=1877165553 All the best Mark www.pantagruel.de www.myspace.com/pantagruelian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland portrait
In einer eMail vom 04.02.2007 20:42:49 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >What do you think the string instrument is that the player on the > >right is > >playing with his back to us? > > Judging from the small number of pegs, it can only be a single-strung > archlute. > Judging from the small number of necks it isn't an archlute. But maybe it could be a colascione, the body is far too small for a bass lute, and the neck seems to be very long. But it seems to have more than the usual 3 strings. Any colascione experts out there? best wishes Mark P.S. Dearest Roman I did mean left. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland portrait
What do you think the string instrument is that the player on the right is playing with his back to us? All the best Mark In einer eMail vom 04.02.2007 14:42:43 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Dear Vance, > > The web address is > > http://www.musikhistorie.dk/sider/temaer/komponister/giardino_novo_s > tor.html > > It was kindly supplied by Arne Keller. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart McCoy. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Great or horrible, a poll!
In einer eMail vom 05.12.2006 00:19:10 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > controversial-video I think that is a bit of an exageration. I think calling it modern is also a bit forced. It reminds me of one of those saturday night television variety shows I had to suffer as a kid. Your grandma will also probably love it, nice young people dancing about to some pleasant classical music with a lively "beat". But anybody who has at least a glimpse of what is happening in 2007 will probably find the whole thing very dated. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: sarmatica 41 on youtube
Hi, Jagshamesh, Have a look at this wonderful video by the same "great Ukrainian R&R band". It has a sort of The Darkness goes Bollywood Vibe. (But be warned it is not for the faint hearted, one of the band members is wearing black nail varnish!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhSnBn99NTE This one is going more for a sort of Rammstein goes folk with a wonderful video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxkYE6JVAC8 Thanks for the tip. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
In einer eMail vom 02.12.2006 14:23:50 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Andreas and Mark, > > > I was just thinking on this. Is there any music > that is clearly written specifically for this type of > 12 (not 11 or 13) course lute? > > Chris Yes there is a lot of music, especially in the flat tuning. It may also be what song books describe as Theorbo-lute. There is little evidence that what we call an archlute was very known in England for instance during the complete 17th century. Archlutes for Purcell is probably more of a modern convention. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
In einer eMail vom 02.12.2006 03:26:38 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > But in an earler message you mentionned the following, "I find at > least on the cittern > that the damped string gives a nice percussive sound to the chord." > You appeared to be talking of damping the string after it has been > struck. > I just misunderstood from this point. > As I said I am not at all sure if my ideas on this subject have an great worth as I don't have a 6course to try them on. But even in the example above that you quoted, I am talking about the sound of a damped string played together with the notes I want to play at the same time. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Hi, To put it clear, I am not talking about sympathetic resonances. That is a problem on electric guitars, at high volume. But you also see acoustic guitarists dampening when using a plectrum. I also do not have a 6course lute so I can't test any of this. But what is MAYBE the case, is that plectrum playing lutenists did use the thumb for dampening strings they did not want to sound and that this hand position just stayed for some time until more courses made it impossible. Our problem is that we are trying to reconstruct the start of a story where we know what happened at the end. We have a few bits of information, but we will always be infleunced by what we know (or at least we know more) about later lute playing. There is something quite distateful about early lutenists using what we consider to be "bad" technique. But if a plectrum lutenist (or maybe a strumming "finger" lutenist)wanted to play a chord such as C or Eb or D, which did not use the lowest string, the safest way to play these chords is to damp the lowest course. This would allow him to be a bit more free in his strumming. It may also be that even when playing single notes that they sometimes used quite wild wide strokes to get more volume of for effect and dampening the other strings stopped anything sounding that should not. Also interesting is how long 6 course lutes remained popular. I think that a 7th course tuned a tone lower was possible much earlier than it became widespread. Maybe they just liked those fat necks so they could put their thumbs in that strange position. But as I said, I don't have a 6 course and rarely play early 16th century music, so everything I say is just wild conjecture. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
In einer eMail vom 01.12.2006 19:59:41 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Mark > I am just thinking that the idea of the thumb-damping could perhaps > be more relevant to metal > wound strings. I think many lute players, even today, damp their > metal wound strings (with the right-hand). > However, on pure unwound gut strings the sustain almost instantly > disappears when you release the > course (I suppose this is relative, and damping could still make this > more instantaneous) . > Perhaps this may not be the case if the course is struck by a > plectrum (I have never tried), so it still could be > a position carried over from the days of plectrum use. > Today, bass oud strings appear to be metal wound. Has this always > been the case? > Your cittern example is, I feel sure, metal strung. > Hi, I am not talking about damping a string that has been struck, but damping a string that I don't want to play. On a renaissance cittern if you play a G chord without a third you just play the highest 3 strings. So I damp the lowest and can go all Pete Townsend :) By the way, the whole problem of basses ringing too long was something that even was a subject for 17th century lutenists with gut strings. The 12 course lute with an extension was only shortly popular in France and then went out of fashion because the basses sounded too long. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
In einer eMail vom 30.11.2006 18:49:00 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I have put some more examples here, including two > supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. > And some other pictures. > > http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html > I am not sure if this is related, but when I play cittern, I tend to damp the lowest course when I am not using it. The lowest course B can often get in the way especially if you are playing in gminor. Once Stewert MyCoy saw me playing and said he found it interesting that I used the thumb to fret notes. But I wasn't I was just dampening them to avoid hitting the lowest course. My "habit" comes from rock guitar playing where at high volumes you have to careful to damp anything you don't want to sound. But you also see acoustic guitarists using this to be able to use "carefree" strumming styles on chords not using the 5th and 6th string. Maybe the earlier lutenists used a simular technique when playing strummed pieces such as those in the earliest lute books. I find at least on the cittern that the damped string gives a nice percussive sound to the chord. This of course doesn't rule out that they used the thumb to fret notes, but maybe a style that developed from plectrum playing kept not only the right hand position, but also the left hand "bad habits" from those evenings thrashing out dance tunes. Just a thought. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transitional Tunings
In einer eMail vom 27.11.2006 11:56:38 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Dear Mark, > > Just to add to the list of music you already have from Richard Corran: > > There's lots of music for transitional tunings in Panmure 5, and I think > Dick Hoban have done an edition of some of these pieces, grouped by > tuning to make life easier - can anyone confirm this or give the exact > references? Sadly Dick Hoban's book is no longer available and it seems that many of the modern editions that Richard lists are no longer available. As far as the top string goes, I think it is ok at the moment, but to go even lower for flat tuning is not possible. I have been thinking about keeping the top two strings at pitch and raising the pitch (and changing the strings) of the others, which would allow me tune it in g at "modern pitch". this would mean I could maybe use it in ensemble. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: CD's at LSA
In einer eMail vom 28.11.2006 02:50:00 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Then Dowland Songs by Stin er, I mean Lord Chamberlain's > Consort. Hi, Thanks for the info... The Lord Chamberlain's Consort have a homepage at http://www.angelfire.com/music7/mylordchamberlains/ You can listen to two of the tracks from their CD. Beautiful singing and some lovely multiple lute and imaginative arrangements. All the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Report in pictures - Alteglofsheim 2006
Dear Stefan, congratulations, on what seems to be a thriving course. All the best Mark In einer eMail vom 26.11.2006 18:42:56 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > Dear Lutenists, > > the report in pictures from Alteglofsheim 2006 with Stewart McCoy and Miguel > Serdoura as guest teachers is ready! > > Please visit: www.luteonline.de > > Thanks to Miguel, Wolfgang and Frank for sending photos and movies! Yes, > movies: for the first time we have some "moving pictures" from our lute days! > > All the best > > Stefan Lundgren -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Transitional Tunings
Hi, I think this is maybe something that hasn't been spoken about so much here. Last weekend I got a lovely new 10 course lute from Martin Shepherd. It has a 67.5 string length and it tuned in F or G at 390, however you want to see it (I prefer the later). Last night I decieded to try some pieces in the sharp tuning from the Board lute book and it worked very well without changing any strings. I tuned the top string down 3 semitones and the second course a tone. I think the long string length makes a differance, on my smaller 7 course the strings would have been rattling like mad. Also when playing closer to the bridge the lower tension on the top string made surprisingly little differance. Are any of you out there playing in these transitional tunings often and if so can you recommend any good modern editions. Are there maybe any fronimo files on the net of this music? best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A question of truth?
Hi, Roman has carved his latest piece of dogma onto the wikipedia site. "The most important living archlute players are Edin Karamazov and Luca Pianca (the founder of Il Giardino Armonico), who predominantly play archlutes, and Paolo Cherici, Massimo Lonardi, Luciano Contini, Paul O'Dette, Jakob Lindberg and Nigel North who use archlutes extensively." The most important sounds to me like a point of view. Funny how Paul, Jacob and Nigel, get placed last. Lynda Sayce has been removed, strange as she has done a huge amount of research into continuo playing and has made about 10 times as many CD's as Edin. I think it is pretty clear that Roman sees Wikipedia site as an outlet for his propaganda. Old soviet habits seem to die hard. Maybe they should give him his own section "Cultural Learnings of Lute for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Turovskistan". Keep on smiling Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Unmarried strung archlutes
In einer eMail vom 26.11.2006 00:06:37 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > An archlute doesn't suddenly become something else just > because it has fourteen strings instead of nineteen, and it's just > inconceivable that no 17th or 18th-century player ever tried it, > whether or not the very few sources about archlutes mention it. We > routinely play single-strung theorbos now, although most surviving > instruments have pegs for double-stringing. > The whole discussion has been played out here a thousand times and nobody has given one piece of evidence for single strung archlutes. We do have pictures of single strung theorbos, but as you say they were probably played more often with double strings than we think. I am not interested in discussing it further and I am sorry if Luca and Edin and their friends have a problem with people saying they do that. I personally still cannot see the advantage of single strings. It is a modern tradition and if they enjoy that, let them do it. Althrough of course it would be hard to place them with the Society for Creative Anachronism, the love of short but decorative lute extensions does have an element of this. It is fairly well known that in late baroque Germany Mandoras were pretty much the standard, but the reason we probably don't see them used is that they don't look so pretty as an archlute for the audience. Doesn't matter if they hear it, just nice to have something with a longer bit at the end to look at. But it seems all is back to normal at wikipedia and the readers can find out that Edin is the most important player. Thanks to somebody, who ever it was, it seems even such less known lutenists such as Paul O'Dette, Nigel North or Jacob Lindberg even get a mention. Even such "beginners" as Jacob Herringman or Lynda Sayce get a mention, I know they may not be as important as Edin, but we should be thankful to the wikipedia guardian that he let them be mentioned. He seems to have a problem with Jacob Lindberg, but in the kindness of his heart he eventully relented. I know what you mean about windmills discussing with Roman is often an empty experience, I am sorry he dragged me in again. I have more important and to use his terminology, serious things to do. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Goths in the Garden, was : Re: sting
In einer eMail vom 25.11.2006 22:44:36 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt Phalese: > In einer eMail vom 25.11.2006 22:35:32 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt > [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > >> There is aplenty >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelique_%28Lute%29 > > I don't see any evidence there. > Please give me one piece of evidence for a single strung archlute in "old > tuning". > > I will leave you to your delusions (of grandeur). > > Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A call for reason.....
Dear Roman According to this on 13:19, 22 February 2006 I made a comment on Elizabeth Taylors Marriage! On another I seem to have made a contribution about Railway electrification system! I have wide interests but I know nothing of both of these. Also why do I have 4 IP addresses? Roman this is of absolute no interest to anybody here. If you want to promote Edin as the most IMPORTANT lute player then please have your prolific fun, but stop boring us with your claims. I ask you once more to please discuss the lute here and not you paranoid delusions.. best wishes Mark In einer eMail vom 25.11.2006 22:16:27 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Look by the IP addresses > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&; > target=194.156.44.3 > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&; > target=194.156.44.6 > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&; > target=194.156.44.8 > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&; > target=172.176.57.92 > RT > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Goths in the Garden, was : Re: sting
In einer eMail vom 25.11.2006 22:00:28 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Luca_Pianca&diff=89839118&; > oldid=82287924 > Hi, not sure who wrote this, but Luca does play a single strung archlute, or not. There is also no evidence for this instrument before the 20th century. The classical guitar bit is maybe a bit hard, but you should probably have left the rest if you were interested in giving info about his playing. Roman you have to accept that people have a differant view to yours. It seems you don't want them to express themselves. Keep smiling Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ting
Dear Roman, Before you make unfounded accusations, I would check if they are not just your paranoia. Maybe their are more people with simular opinions out there. I didn't realise you were the guardian of the wikepedia site. How do you find the time when you are so prolific? I read about your film project, when are you going to start filming it ? All the best Mark -Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Verschickt: Sa., 25.Nov.2006, 18:58 Thema: [LUTE] Re: ting It would have been put to rest long ago, but Mark's envy hes got the best of him, and he has taken his antiSting jihad to Wikipedia, where he continues to insert denigrating sentences about Sting into lute-related articles. Rather petty, idnit? RT > I got 21 out of 31 messages this morning relating to this topic. Or at > least, criticising someone else's opinion on it. > Sting ain't bovvered! Is anyone? > Put it to rest, - Please > Ron (UK) > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > --
[LUTE] Re: Sting!
In einer eMail vom 23.11.2006 15:55:49 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I have no idea what you've been listening to. My copy has BRIGHT LILY, > rather than WHITE. > RT > That was my mistake, I meant bright. But the THE THE is clearly an editing mistake. Didn't you say that the guys from DG forced them to record the CD with the close miking etc, so I suspect they also edited it? All not so important in the end, but does show the sloppy nature of the "work of love". Lets not get too involved in this Sting thing again. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting!
In einer eMail vom 23.11.2006 14:18:25 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > An excellent suggestion, Eugene. > Perchance Mark would post an example of his own singing, or even his take on > > some serious lute music, rather than the vaudeville that he offered > previously... > RT Hi Roman, I am interested in voix de ville and there will be a couple on the next Pantagruel CD.But I didn't realise you had heard us perform them, you must have a bootleg, I knew you were a fan. If you want to hear something not very serious then what about the huge editing mistake on track 5 of the Sting CD. Or did Sting want to sing Have you seen the THE white in the opening line. It has a sort of hip-hop scratching effect. They should maybe have listened to the CD before they pressed it, but maybe should not be so hard on amateurs:) best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting! Nachtrag
In einer eMail vom 23.11.2006 11:59:35 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I just received this, and it seems to work: > > http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID"928060&; > blogID=196138740&MyToken=031a1ab8-093b-46a0-9f22-61b9d9ef4505 Hi, sorry, someone said they couldn't view it. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting! Nachtrag
HI, I have just seen that you need to ba a myspace member to read the blog, so here is the article for those interested Pantagruel - Gothic Renaissance Zillo December 2006/January 2007 Gothic and Renaissance do not seem to have much in common; in fact the 16th ce ntury saw the medieval period as something quite barbaric. Therefore it is even more surprising to see Mark Wheeler, one of the founding fathers of the gothic scene performing in the virtuoso renaissance ensemble Pantagruel, who with "Elizium" undertake an enchanting journey to the realm of Queen Elizabeth I. In the following detailed monologue the ex-Love Like Blood guitarist shows there are in fact links between the past and present, and between the most diverse of musical genres. "Most rock fans are hobby musicologists, when you like a band; you want to find out what influenced your heroes. It was this search for their spring of inspiration that led me to renaissance lute music when I was 15 and I simply got hooked. I was a huge fan of 70's rock guitarists such as Jimmy Page and Steve Howe, who claimed to be influenced by lute music.-- Eventually I stopped playing rock guitar and began to study the lute in London at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama and my room-mate was the brother of the guitarist from All about Eve and later Sisters of Mercy. He dragged me along to one of his brother's gigs and my detour into the gothic scene began. The irony of my work with Love Like Blood was that I was playing Gothic guitar influenced by lute music and that Gothic guitar itself its roots in the playing of guitarists such as Jimmy Page who were also influenced by Lute Music. In many respects what I am doing with Pantagruel would be impossible without my experience in the Gothic scene, hours of practicing and research are indispensable, but being part of a living musical experience is something that no source material can substitute. I think that is what makes Pantagruel different from many other early music groups, we are not interested in just recreating an historical performance, rather we see our concerts as invocations, where music and the visual elements create something greater than the sum of it's parts. During a convincing performance of the Ballad "Daphne" I feel I am in ancient Rome, Elizabethan England and somehow I can still somehow smell a waft of dry ice from my Goth-Rock days. I have the feeling, that Pantagruel is a direct continuation of what I did on the CD "An Irony of Fate" with Love Like Blood. The renaissance is one of those eras similar to the late 1960's when the human spirit struggles to break free of the shackles that society places on it. When late medieval scholars began to realise that life in classical Rome or Greece had been a lot better than under the iron fist of the medieval Papacy, it gave them a vision to create a new "Golden age" where man had the freedom to explore his own destiny. In the end I got thrown out of Love Like Blood, because I--didn't accept the compromises the music industry wanted to impose on us. I think that if we--had stayed true to what we had begun--on "An irony of Fate", we could have created our own individual style of Gothic Rock. But in the end it was unfulfilled desire. But that was all in the past=E2=80=A6. The motto from Francois Rabelais's Book "Pantagruel", "Do what thou wilt", lies at the very core of our work. We take the surviving historical sources and using copies of historical instruments fill in the grey areas with our own ideas. The advantage of historical instruments is that their "limitations" are often their most beautiful qualities. Lutes are extremely quiet, but perfect for accompanying the human voice; if we used amplification it would destroy so much of--their charm. Improvisation was an important part of musical life back then and that's why our arrangements are constantly changing. Renaissance music is a dead art form; but we can dig up the remains, sprinkle the blood of living music on them and thereby revive the music of our forefathers. We find it inspiring to see that men and women of that--era felt much the same as we do today. That they shared the thirst for freedom, the knowledge that the darker parts of our psyche need their nourishment and that love will eventually find its way. It is music that allows a lot of personal input, the pieces being often just a rough framework around which we can let our fantasy run wild. It is also very intimate music, as we play without any amplification, the music travels in its purest form from our mouths and fingers into the listener's ears. Our CD was recorded completely live without any overdubs using a pair of special microphones that capture the sound you would hear standing directly before us. We are not interested in turning back the clock, there is simply so much--fantastic modern music out there, that it would be fatal mistake to get
[LUTE] Re: Sting!
In einer eMail vom 23.11.2006 01:38:23 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > If he ever > comes to Montreal to perform this stuff, I really hope the lutenists > around me are going to tell him what we think. > I wouldn't get so worked up about it. Everything of course you say is probably true, but in the music buisness at the level that Sting works the truth is not always the best way to sell records. I just wanted to offer you some comic relief not dig that whole Sting thing up again, that is way over, on all accounts. A couple of days ago a German rock magazine published an article about my ensemble pantagruel's new CD "Elizium". . The magazine sells about 50,000, so at least a few younger listeners get an idea of what a HIP performance can be about. You can read an English translation here... http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID"928060&; blogID=196138740&MyToken=c848abc2-f8b7-4bd6-9c86-3797c3dde9fc I expect the usual candidates will all get up about black nail varnish etc, but all I can say to them is I am still practising my 'watch me, because I'm really good' thang:) best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting!
In einer eMail vom 23.11.2006 00:43:50 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > This is getting more and more ridiculoushe should be ashamed of > presenting this to the world > > regards > > Bruno > Dear Bruno. Don't get frustrated, try starting your day with a word of wisdom from the zen master The "Sting quote of the day" at www.sting.com Try it sometime, it will give you a warm and happy glow the whole day long. For instance. "What surprises me is that people see me as arrogant. To a certain extent, I am, but any artist worth his salt has arrogance. It's a prerequisite of being stage-worthy. You have to have a certain air of 'watch me, because I'm really good'." STING Not bad, but wait till you read this. "I do like intellectualism. I do find it stimulating. I like reading involved books. I like complex music even though I'm a pop musician. I'm not just happy making simple music; I need some kind of acerbic, difficult quality to it somewhere." STING But my absolute favorite must be "I don't often look back at my work and ponder its significance. You might find that difficult to believe, but I don't. I'm too worried about what I'm going to do next." STING Yes we all do find it very, very, very dificult to believe that you don't ponder on your own significance. But we are still in awe of that 'watch me, because I'm really good' mantra The only thing I can say is thank you for bringing a ray of sunshine into our lives every single day. OMM SHANTI Peace brothers Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 29.10.2006 17:31:41 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > And so does Karamazov. And I prefer EK's brynza to ALK's wensleydale. > RT Someone told me once that Paul O'Dette original name was Paul Audet. Not sure or very interested if this is true, but if he had changed his name to Odettski then I am sure Roman would like his playing :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 29.10.2006 09:13:54 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Many post Bachists regard an interest in lute music and early music in > general, this way, i.e. asserting the superiority of what is inferior. > What does a post Bachist believe and what does a Bachist believe? Could you please give me an example of "asserting the superiority of what is inferior". best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
However it would be a mistake to confuse or conflate these two notions. The second is not only infinitely worse than the first, but often acts in reverse fashion, alleging the inferiority of the superior (cf. Mark Wheeler). RT I don't quite understand that if I believe one music style is not superior to another, how I can be "alleging the inferiority of the superior". Please tell me which music style I have said is inferior ? My ALK quote simply said that he didn't like the extreme rubato that classical musicians often use and preffered the "tightness" of a rock band. That does not mean that he thinks classical music is bad, just that he prefers another way of performing renaissance music. It seems that you have a problem with rock music and accepting it as an artistic language. Do you view it as inferior ? Maybe inferior to baroque pastische ? Mark > > I think beauty is truly in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. > > Gary > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 7:19 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ? > > > >> >> But to not make distinctions - decisions about which >> of things has more merit - is to go against deeply >> ingrained human desires and experiences. It is >> actually no less than denying one's own self. >> >> Do you have trouble making a decision between a >> well-cooked meal and a poorly cooked one? I'll bet >> you don't! (I've had more of the former.) Can you >> say that whole types of approaches to food preparation >> are much better than others - say, fast-food >> McDonald's vs. a slow-food gourmet restaurant? I >> _hope_ you can. And I'll bet you don't think highly >> of people who don't take the mental effort to >> appreciate the distinction between a Big Mac and a >> Beef Wellington. I know which I prefer. Still, I'll >> admit to eating (and even being able to swallow) >> McDonald's a couple of times a year. >> >> Yes indeed, Bach's music is better than Led >> Zeppelin's, _far_ better, in fact. But not just >> because it is more complex. (Otherwise, we'd have to >> give the award of "best music" to Boulez or Babbitt or >> some obscure logarithmist.) >> >> I would argue that Bach's music is among the best >> works of art that the human race has _ever_ produced, >> regardless of time, place, or society. But that >> doesn't mean that his music is the absolute best at >> everything, nor does it invalidate other types of >> music. I would doubt that a Bach fugue would relate >> to the specific everyday experieces of the inner-city >> street thug, for instance - that's where hip-hop came >> from. But beyond the banal accidents of day to day >> life, deep in the soul of that person, there is >> something in the music of Bach that speaks to the soul >> in ways that a hip-hop ditty never, ever can; now or >> in a million years. >> >> Yes, better. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> __ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.428 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: > 10/27/2006 3:15 PM >> >> > > > > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com --
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
> As we have no recorded performances of renaissance music and the romantic > tradition is also not > representative of renaissance performance, rock music performance that > places more emphasis on > the "beat" is maybe closer to the way a > renaissance musician may have played. But in the end we > have no proof, > but dancers do need a steady beat. So you think this qualifies as proof??? How about Hoppy Smith, which has never been even remotely steady, in his beat? If you would read what I wrote, then you would notice that I said "in the end we have no proof". Even if Hoppy's beat is all Hoppy, doesn't make a lot of differance to my view of renaissance music. Maybe he is at our concert in "Basler Lauten Abende" series next year, i can ask him what he thinks about the renaissance groove. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
> > The interesting thing about ALK performance was that he was playing to > > accompany dancers and > the sort of performances that can be found on the > > Sting CD with it's romantic rubato would be > impossible for a dancer to use. Are you suggesting that IN DARKNESS is a dance tune??? We were talking about "can she excuse", dear Roman. But as always you never stick to the facts. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
I think we need to make a distinction between music styles, it is quite pointless comparing Bach and Led Zeppelin. I personally like both and don't know with which method I should make a judgement. In the end any judgements about music are always coloured by the listeners social background and that of the composer. The idea of a universal genius for all time is an illusion that in our post-modern times has little relevance. The interesting thing about ALK performance was that he was playing to accompany dancers and the sort of performances that can be found on the Sting CD with it's romantic rubato would be impossible for a dancer to use. As we have no recorded performances of renaissance music and the romantic tradition is also not representative of renaissance performance, rock music performance that places more emphasis on the "beat" is maybe closer to the way a renaissance musician may have played. But in the end we have no proof, but dancers do need a steady beat. You speak of "subtle layers of the interrelations of pitches and dynamics", I can do this when listening to many rock CD's including the new My chemical romance CD or Led Zeppelin IV. I have just read an interview from Sting for an american early music magazine where he praises Dowland for dealing with the subject DEATH, something that modern pop and rock music does not. Well he does not have to worry, the new MCR album is a concept album about mortality and should sail into the top of the billboard charts. I do not claim that rock music is the only important music in the last 35 years, but I think that Roman and even sting should be careful about making blanket statements about a genre that they don't seem to understand. best wishes Mark -Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Verschickt: Fr., 27.Okt.2006, 16:29 Thema: Re: [LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ? --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The ability to play fast or cleaner at at least > possible somewhat to judge. Yes, so is faster or cleaner, better? According to you, no. > I was not talking about musicians playing abilities. > For instance ALK, told me that he rarely listen to > classical CD's because the > ensemble playing was often so bad, that his ideal of > ensemble playing can be > heard on hard rock CD's. If you have heard him play > Can She Excuse compared > with the Sting version, I can see what he means. So, in support of your arguement that we shouldn't make distinctions between styles of music, you give a example of a musician who believes that the playing in one style of music is better than another? Then you finish by implying that his version of a song is better than Sting's. > > What is the point in judging one musical style > against another? > In the end no one will listen if they enjoy > something else, There are many reasons for liking a piece of music and many levels of enjoying music. Most people only listen for what they like. But like Ives said "What has sound to do with music?" I love Bach for a variety of reasons. On the other hand, while I don't especially _like_ the surface sound of Webern's music, I listen to it in another way, appreciating the subtle layers of the interrelations of pitches and dynamics. I also like Bill Monroe, but I sure don't apply the same expectations. Chris __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 19:20:52 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Great! Then I'm just as good a player as Paul > O'Dette! Who cares if he plays cleaner, has a finer > touch, etc? I'm after different goals (largely I am) > so we can't possibly say that either of us is > "better," can we? As a matter of fact, then, all > non-musicians are inherently better players than any > of us since they are not clouded by the complexities > that we must confront in learning an instrument. As > John Cage might argue, they can make their music > directly by vocal utterances, feet stamping, and > driving cars. That's just as good as Bach, afterall. I was simply saying that Bach is not better music than Led Zeppelin, because it is more complex. In the end I would not say that any music style is better than another. I may not agree with the message, but if it brings that message over it works. The ability to play fast or cleaner at at least possible somewhat to judge. I was not talking about musicians playing abilities. For instance ALK, told me that he rarely listen to classical CD's because the ensemble playing was often so bad, that his ideal of ensemble playing can be heard on hard rock CD's. If you have heard him play Can She Excuse compared with the Sting version, I can see what he means. > > Seriously, the absurdity lies in saying that since we > often times can't seperate the music from its > historical/cultural/social contexts there's no use in > making any distinction. What is the point in judging one musical style against another? In the end no one will listen if they enjoy something else, not even if Roman or Sting says it is complex. That sort of reasoning died out long ago. > > > Note that this has nothing at all to do with likes and > dislikes. (I personally would not like to live in the > Duomo.) I will concede, for example, that John > Coltrane probably produced "better" music than Led > Zeppelin, but I personally prefer Zep most of the > time. But then I prefer Dowland to Zeppelin... > Ijust play what I want to and there is no such thing as "better" music IMHO. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] In praise of Roman's Folly
Hi, I found this whole sting thing interesting, I found the "Flow my tears" folk version worth sharing with the lute net. even the Blackmore's Night thing (as it seems they are not so well known in America). But then our friend Roman got all personal again and I have just tried to have a look at his video http://torban.org/Lubov.avi Sadly, I can only listen to the music and can't give any points to their make-up, but what was directly clear is that tha music has absolutely nothing to do with Gothic. It sounds like a typical mainstream rock pub band and has none of the elements that can be considered gothic. Not realy a surprise, Roman maybe means well, but as always is out of his depth. But if you are reading this dearest Roman, I would recommend System of a Down, they are an armenian (is that ethnically interesting for you?) Nu-Rock band and combine armenian folk music with extreme metal. Their last album topped the charts in most countries, which is a surprise considering the extreme nature of their music. But it is very interesting stuff, well worth a listen. But be careful, the guitarist does wear black nail varnish. Roman if you want to make any global statements about rock music (or your mate Sting) then give me a call I can save you the loss of face. But lets get back to lute music. In the end the whole Sting discussion was about how to bring renaissance music to a younger wider audience, that is more interesting than Roman's 19th century nationalistic musicology. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 18:14:46 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Not all musics were created equal. Sorry, way of judging music by it's ethnic background and complexity is absurd. If we follow your reasoning, then why do we play Dowland at all, he didn't come from eastern europe and his music is not as complex as Bach. So it is unequal to the later more "complicated music". I think you should do a bit more research on something before you start being an expert for it. But I suppose it is the bad infleunce of your "mates". Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 17:43:40 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I am finding increasing difficulty detecting the relevancy of this > discussion to this list. I like some recent music that doesn't involve > lutes, and > some of it is not the same as what others like...and I don't really care that > other tastes differ. Enjoy. > > How'bout some discussion to do with lute-related topics? > > Eugene Hi, you are right, the discussion was about Richie Blackmore and renaissance music, which was remotely lute related and then Roman started his Wagner Vs. Deep Purple thing. I don't see the point in comparing one genre of music with another, especially here. Now he seems to see me as the world representative for Gothic, is cooking up some sort of video spoof. I did play in a Goth-rock band 15 years ago, but I began playing the lute long before that. Gothic is not better than any other music genre and many people as in the classical world are only interested in the "image", but there are a lot of nice and honest people as in every scene. But for your info Roman, at the moment I am more interested in Nu-Rock and Emo, both are also prone to wearing black nail varnish and eyeliner,but I think at the moment these scenes are more interesting musically. So maybe you can produce a video series. But I expect a bit better research than Edin & Sting have given us. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 17:20:18 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I never knew Rockettes also played instruments. > RT > It seems you are in a sort of 19th century "reality tunnel". Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 16:31:41 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > =CD am certainly not familiar with musical meaning of menacing nail laquer > and > "Cleopatra" style eye liner. > Keep guessing. > RT > Are you talking about the "look" from Siouxie and Banshee's Singer one of the most important early punk bands? I am sure your witty "punk" friend could tell you who she was. I take it you never go to the Opera, don't try it they wear make-up and costumes :) If you want to have a real shock and see what is going on the in the world outside your little shuttered world then have a look at this. http://www.myspace.com/thelist There you can see excerpts from a concert of one of the best rock bands around today. You won't like it, but it may be a good reality check for you. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 15:57:50 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I have. Might have even heard something, but after hearing Siegfried's > Funeral. Which makes former a bit ludicrous, doesn't it? > RT > I am not sure how one piece of music makes another ludicrous, that may be true of a performance of the same music, but we have been down that road, far too often. I would still be interested to know from which "punk" band your "lead guitarist" is. You don't seemed to be well versed in the music history of the last 30 years, just a tip the Eagles were not a punk band. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 26.10.2006 13:40:18 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Neither have I, until last Monday. > RT I find that very hard to believe. Never heard of Deep Purple? Then you have been missing out on a lot of great music. No wonder you find Edin's playing so innovative, it seems you have missed out on what has been happening in the last 35 years. I would be interested to know who the "leadguitarist with a VERY IMPORTANT R& R band" is, maybe the Osmonds ? best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 25.10.2006 16:59:39 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > The lute Police would be turning Deep Purple with rage!!! > > DR > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.rastallmusic.com I think it could improve the whole sting Dowland thing quite a lot. Blackmore never plays with another guitarist, so Edin would have to go and as Richie has a much better sense of timing than Edin, some of the SFTL problems would be gone. Anybody who knows anything about Mr. Blackmore knows he is not exactly the easiest person to get along with, especially if you are in his band! A friend of mine who is a massive Deep Purple fan saw a concert where Richie in the middle of the first song threw a bottle of water at Ian Gillan. I would expect a Sting/Blackmore project would not last more than a few hours. For all his bad moods Blackmore is a great musician, "Stargazer" from "Rainbow Rising" is one of the best pieces of Hard Rock ever recorded. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 25.10.2006 01:57:32 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > A colleague on a this week's film job, a propmaster, who formerly was the > leadguitarist with a VERY IMPORTANT R&R band (unnamed for now), told me > today that RBlackmore plays nothing but lutes these days. > RT Sorry, but your friend doesn't probably know what a lute is. Richie plays modern steel string acoustic and modern citterns. Blackmore's Night are much more sucessful here in Europe than America and get quite high in the charts here. For those of you that haven't heard it is sounds a bit like 70's folk rock and the vocals the image of the singer - Candice Night are heavily infleunced by Stevie Nicks. Don't want to knock it at all, it is well played and makes no pretentions of being HIP in any sense of the word. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 24.10.2006 19:36:05 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Absolutely true, but I doubt that Sting even knew that there were > early-music singers who fall into yet another category other than operatic. I think somebody like Sting who had classical training in Basel should know that there are early music singers out there who don't sound operatic. > > > > I think that word "normal" is at the heart of all this discussion of > early-music singing. There seem to be many differing ideas on what "normal" > means > in this context. Exactly, anybody who starts using the word "normal" to describe singing over hundreds of years, has to be extremely naive. We will never know exactly how elizabethan singers sounded, but we do know they didn't use amplification or studio technology to boost their vocals. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 24.10.2006 18:18:26 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > think Sting simply meant to say that his voice is not classically-trained. > I don't think he was being insincere; I think he was simply assuming that > people who sing Dowland have classically-trained voices, and that he himself > was putting a different spin on it. I think that if you start taking about operatic tenors and bel canto you are talking about Domingo etc and not early music singers who do not sing in that style. I suppose it would have been not such good PR to say I don't sing like Domingo and I also don't sing like those early music singers who have tried the last few years to find out how this music was sung. Instead it is better to put all non-sting singers into one big compartment and say the way you singer is "normal and then put a sticker on your CD "recommended by classical experts". Especially when the classical experts are the DG magazine. All the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 24.10.2006 17:20:02 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I agree with you that those "extraordinary vocalizations" don't just > spring forth without some kind of tradition behind them. I think > that for the most part people who sing folk music, rock, blues, > country, whatever (classical singing not included), learn it by > listening to, and cultivating the art of their native language. > Ok, then we agree that a "normal voice" does not exist and that any voice is always influenced by the culture in which it evolved singing the music that was "normal" in their culture. So when Sting talks about a normal voice it is just PR. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 24.10.2006 15:51:41 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > According to Ray Nurse, at the Baroque Vocal Workshop I attended, > there were two kinds of singing in the Renaissance: church and > chamber, often done by the same person. > Which one sounded like an operatic tenor and which one like Sting :) On what did Ray Nurse base this theory ? Did these "kinds" of singing use a differant basis technique or are they stylistic differences. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 24.10.2006 15:25:30 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > "operatic tenors" to me sounds like he's making a > distinction between those who are trained to project > their voices with the aid of their diaphragm - a > brisk, penetrating, back-of-the-hall-reaching, royal > shakespeare company voice - as opposed to someone > speaking (singing) normally So, I take it there is nothing between these extremes. I also don't like using the word "normal" it always sounds like a moral judgement. The problem is for the non-specialist it sound like you have 2 alternatives Sting or Pavorotti. Good PR bad information. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 24.10.2006 14:05:31 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Mark > I would personally doubt whether some Irish folk singers are > completely untrained. Perhaps it is not a scholarly training, but > some (not of course the present singer) that I have heard make such > extraordinary vocalizations I can't think this is just the result of > a spontaneous breaking into song, as it were. > I totally agree, with what you are saying. It also totally destroys Stings simplistic "normal voice" comments. Today I heard Sting say on radio that most Dowland recordings were by operatic tenors. Maybe I am wrong, but when someone says operatic tenor then I start thinking of Domingo etc. I don't think of a singer such as Paul Agnew as an operatic tenor. He is trying to give the illusion that there is the Sting style and then Pavarotti sings Dowland I think there are a lot of performances betweeen these extremes and even more extreme than Sting. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 24.10.2006 09:19:27 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Got it. Interesting. I like English folk. I would have changed the > accompaniment with that style of singing to something more "folky". > The interesting thing would be to see how people who don't listen to > EM, but rather her target audience, would react. I would have used a more lightly strung small bodied steel strung acoustic guitar to go for that John Renbourne Pentangle sound. Gone more for a period sound :) I think it is interesting because her performance uses much less vocal technique than sting and if elizabethans were untrained (which was most likely not the case) then they may have sounded more like this. English folk singing maybe contain some remnants of ballad singing from the 16th century. It is a style that is based around the text more than rock singing, so maybe has more relevance (in terms of HIP research) than what a rock singer would do with the music. What would be interesting would be to hear other rock singers sing Dowland, especially without any vocal coach from the early music world. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A "normal" voyce ?
Hi, the URL was wrong it should have been http://www.myspace.com/suzannesear best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A "normal" voyce ?
Hi, without opening all that Sting thing again, I found something that may be of interest in the what is a normal voice discussion. Today Pantagruel got an add request on myspace from a folk singer who is recording a CD of John Dowland songs. Have a listen to her flow my tears at... http://www.myspace.com/suzannesear- Clearly infleunced by English folk singers, it is interesting to hear an approach that is even less trained than Stings. No judgement here, just wanted to share this with the list... all the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Poulton's book on JD
Hi, try abebooks.com I got a copy there for about 50 euros. They have some very cool books, one of the best finds I made there (it wasn't cheap, but worth it) was a copy of William dauney's "Ancient Scotish melodies" from 1901 with an inscription to the author's niece. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland as a singer
In einer eMail vom 18.10.2006 22:21:28 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > What troubles me, is the view that there is only one way to perform > Dowland. Singers are individuals, and will inject a little of > themselves into their performance. I have listened to Mark Wheelers' > group Pantagruel at Lute Society meetings in London, and enjoyed > their soprano's singing. I have listened to Alfonso Marin's singer > via his website. She sings very well too. I have also enjoyed > Sting's "unschooled tenor". We live in a big world, and there is > room for everyone. > That view would trouble me too. I think Stings live performance was much better than the CD. Maybe he should have waited a bit longer and the CD recording was rushed. But what irritates me is the generalisations that Sting and the supporters of his views are throwing around. I think that Hales was chosen to sing "His golden Locks" was probably because he was the better singer. Also Hales position destroys Stings talk of a normal voice. It seems that there were differant classes of voices even then. From this situation it seems Elizabeth prefered Hales. The problem with Sting's arguments is that he seems to set the limit of vocal technique or at least the "norm" for vocal technique at his own "pop" singer level. Also if Dowland attacks singers who added divisions then it probably means they almost all did it. Stings technique as shown in the Johnson song has no possibility to articulate fast notes. So just as I cannot imagine him singing "I saw my lady weep" for example the standard of the profesional singer would have probably been much higher than Sting. Don't have any problem with Sting singing this music just with his claims of being the last word in HIPness. I also think the evidence is strongly against Sting being just as HIP as everybody else. The CD entered the German charts at 11. From my experience in the music buisness, I would guess he has sold ca. 20,00 copies so far in Germany. (Romans possible figure of 300,000 is how many may have been sold to shops, but not how many have been sold to customers)This is for this sort of product amazing, but is far less than a "normal" Sting CD would sell in the first weeks. So probably only the hardcore Sting fans purchased it. It is still to be seen if the CD attracts a wider audience, by staying so high in the charts. Dificult to say, I am not tempted to guess, it is such an unusual situation. I agree there are much more interesting things in Early Music today than the Sting CD, hope the Dowland boom comes and we see an interest in early music like in the late 60's and 70's. But I have a quite cynical view of the music buisness and I don't have the feeling that there is much interest in show the masses alternatives or even further listening. I have the feeling that cross-over projects tend to make the average listener even more Lazy when it comes to exploring music styles, they wait until the next media hype and then buy their recommended fix. all the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting and his CD
In einer eMail vom 18.10.2006 17:55:03 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > professional of Robert Hales' > stature What do we know about a singer such as Robert Hales, who would probably have been the sort of singer that Dowland's songs were designed for. I remember reading that seems to have Elizabeth's favorite singer. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: STOP Sting and his CD, please
Hi, not complaining, my last mail was very positive, great to see that people outside our "ghetto" (how one big English newspaper called the early music scene) see the huge problems with Stings CD, even the single strung archlute. Bravo. Mark -Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Verschickt: Mi., 18.Okt.2006, 9:52 Thema: Re: [LUTE] Re: STOP Sting and his CD, please Mark Let's do something positive in stead of complaining about other people's well-meant recording of music we love. After listening to the first MP3s on the net my initial reaction was like yours, but when listeing to a better audio quality I actually liked it. Well-done to the two of them, and thanks for all the publicity my beloved instrument and its music receives because of it. But our opinions, positive or negative, don't matter, as whatever Sting does is outside our world anyway. Let's get back to our world. If you send me your latest cd, I'll send you mine and we'll have something to talk about that does interest the hip-concerned lutenists on this list. Deal? David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 6:25 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting and his CD > In einer eMail vom 18.10.2006 00:19:21 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit > > schreibt > [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > >> That they aren't is just a failure of execution. >> > > I think that is probably the best way to describe this CD in general from > both musicians as "a failure of execution". > > Mark > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Don't underestimate the punter
Dear lutenetters, there is a lot of talk about the "normal public" not be able to discern a realistic lute sound from the synthetic sound on SFTL and nobody being interested in the single strung archlute. Here are a few quotes from the BBC messageboard, which is generally quite damning of the CD. "One thing I suppose I should mention is Sting's lute playing. I don't want to be join the anti-Sting brigade, but he was very "brave" to play in public. He seemed to have a pretty elementary technique, little regard for tone (and it sounded as though he might have been using nails instead of flesh, but that is another matter), little legato, etc. Curiously, in the photo I saw in the Indy, of Sting holding a lute, it looked very much as though the lute was only single strung thoughout! (It makes it initially much easier to get a clean sound of course.) I do wonder whether Sting might have been conned a little by the Edin Karamazov." "What I did find irritating was the lutenist. His playing seemed largely devoid of any form of pulse and he seemed unable to form, sustain or project musical lines. (He was better during the the duet with Sting, presumably because he had to be more disciplined.)" "I agree about the lute player, no discernible pulse." "I promise you, we are trying to do that...it's his style, I suppose, for want of a better word...actually, it doesn't sound as if he is ARTICULATING the text properly, his voice sounds both strained AND muffled... In some ways I think it's admirable that he wants to move into this repertoire, BUT, as I said in my earlier post, he should learn to do it properly, if he wants to do it at all!" "However much Sting loves Dowland, and however much he sings it at home, is not relevent. He has made a commercial recording of it, and that means he wants other people (and lots of them) to listen to him doing it. His lack of ability doesn't seem to matter much to many people, but I'm not prepared to waste my time listening to his poor, out-of-tune 'singing'. Use all the arguments, excuses, reasons that you like, but you won't persuade me otherwise on this one! It's like Florence Foster Jenkins all over again!" Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting and his CD
In einer eMail vom 18.10.2006 00:19:21 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > That they aren't is just a failure of execution. > I think that is probably the best way to describe this CD in general from both musicians as "a failure of execution". Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting and his CD
In einer eMail vom 17.10.2006 22:50:57 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > There must be something wrong with the sample. I can't understand a > word :-) I have just listened to the CD and it is very difficult to understand the words on that song at all. Just had a listen to the excellent recording by Paul Agnew and Christoher Wilson and every word is very eay to understand. So in the end all of Stings talk about the text being important is just PR. I think Stewart is doing a wonderful job of being polite, by missing all the bad points of the CD. I listened to it again today and was amazed at the electronic effect treatment of the lute. Not only is it very closely miked, but the reverb is even increased during pieces to get a sort of keyboard like effect. The same is true of the voice. What we have here is a pop-production and that disqualifies it as having anything to say about how Dowland could have sounded or could sound in an acoustic enviroment. The CD is best seen as a bad joke, it will be a benchmark for a bad Dowland recording for years to come. Maybe the proposed Campion/Purcell CD will top it for sheer stupidity, but that will be dificult. All the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Cheers for Sting
In einer eMail vom 17.10.2006 22:51:35 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > We tend to accept on an academically that Dowland and company wrote > popular music. Not true at all, the broadside ballad repertoire was the pop music of the day. But that would not have interested HRH Sting as it is not complex enough :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 15.10.2006 01:47:12 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I don't expect you to like it, but don't push your cheesy wares as the > alternative. > RT Hi Roman, funny that you find my wares are so cheesy compared with Stings with it's electronic lute sound, new age bird calls etc. Amusing that you find our singer worse than Micro Man, Hannah has just returned from France where she recorded a Purcell CD with William Christie for Virgin Classics. But I suppose that does have the ethnic background that would interest you. We did have a Polish singer for a few weeks would that have been more pleasing to you ? As far as the drugs things goes have a listen to one of Dowland's drug texts that got cut from his 3rd book of songes at http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/pantagruel-elizium/ Track 7 "The Buzzeinge Bee's Complaynt" uses a couple of extra verses from the original poem that Dowland set. Strange that Poulton and Kelnberger didn't mention that Dowland only included the first 3 verses. But then you only tend to find out this sort of thing if you read even more than 30 books about Elizabethan music. So it's nothing for your friends, who didn't notice that Come again,contains alternate verses and not 6 verses to be sung together. Thats what happens when you don't use facsimiles.. Here is the last verse of "It was a time... "Tis only I must draine Aegiptian flowers, Having noe savour, bitter sap they have, & seeke out Rotten Tombes & dead mens bowers, And bite on nightshade growing by the grave, If this I cannot have, as hapless Bee, Witching Tobacco I will fly to thee" Probably too "gothic" for you and a good job that you were not around at one of those jacobean masques or Elizabethan entertainments because they wore costumes, . That would be such a shock for you. I feel quite free to use this Sting debacle to push, peddle or promote our more serious approach to elizabethan music to the world, what do you intend to do against it ? Please give it all the negative publicity you can, as you know their is no such thing as bad publicity :) Keep up the bad work Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
Hi Roman, I understand you are frustrated. But listen playing with amplification is just a way to hide the weakness of Stings voice. Admit it. It was amusing seeing you get so worked up. I think you are even going to get more worked up in the near future. I'd would watch your blood pressure. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 15.10.2006 01:18:20 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > A comedy troupe in drag won't need amplification, to be sure. > RT > Not sure what that has to do with us, maybe something to with your last brothel visit. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 15.10.2006 01:05:26 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > They perform in LARGE SPACES, for A LOT OF PEOPLE, 600+ here in NYC. I > guess > you nefver had such experience. > I am sure they wouldn't amplify for a wood paneled room, and an audience of > 20. But they are in a predicament of having large audiences. > RT > > Pantagruel biggest gig was for 1000 people at a festival in Bamberg. Without amplification And everything double strung Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 15.10.2006 00:56:02 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Were they published posthumously??? > RT > Do you think Dowland composed them originally to be published. He sat down and wrote the whole book and then published it. You can't be serious. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 15.10.2006 00:44:54 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > WHY WOULD THEY SING AND PLAY IN A GLASS-AND-CONCRETE SPACE WITHOUT > AMPLIFICATION? > That would be rather stupid, wouldn't it? > The point is they only perform with amplification, which means all of stings talk of a "normal voice" is absolute B+++S### as all of his ranting probably helped by his anti-research side-kick. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 15.10.2006 00:47:40 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > So people sat around books, didn't they? > RT > never ever doubted it. You should get some new glasses, because I was talking abou how these songs were performed before they were published Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 15.10.2006 00:34:59 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Why? > RT > Ok, now we have reached the showdown point. Sorry but everytime it come to a point that is uncomfortable for you, you backdown. You know they use amplification, you just don't want to say it. I am also not at all frightened by your amateur friends and I am sorry, but Pantagruel would blow them of stage, every time. all the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 15.10.2006 00:25:35 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > So all the publishers formatted these books against people's > will??? > RT I don't know what your problem is and I can understand you are eager to discredit everything I say to protect your "buddies", but I was talking from the start about for which setting these songs were first conceived. The table format was a good way to sell them to a larger audience, but probably most of the songs were not written with primarily publication in mind. They were performed at court by professional musicians. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 15.10.2006 00:29:12 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I've heard the duo in a huge space that was all glass and concrete. > RT Without amplification ? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 14.10.2006 23:55:58 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Did other composers have a similar strategy, having published books > similarly? > RT I know Edin doesn't like reading books about the lute, but I have picked up that bad habit of reading them :) "One innovation of the first booke that was invaribly followed in later printed books of ayres was the table-book format..." The Lute in Britain - Mathew Spring So again, nice try but you were wrong .. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 14.10.2006 23:43:05 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > And also totally lacking any character. > RT Character is a matter most likely a matter of opinion and I would doubt if any performance by anyone is "totally lacking any character", but the use of microphones to increase a voice that is unable to fill a small room is easier to judge. If character means that your performance is so bad on CD that the general opinion is that it sounds like junk, then your favorites have cornered the market mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 14.10.2006 23:15:21 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I don't doubt that you are right about professionals singing Dowland's > songs and amateurs having some training. Concerning the matter of > singing at the table, surely you must have forgotten the famous > introduction > to Morley's 'Plaine &Easie Introduction to Practicall Musicke' of 1597? > I know the quote and I don't doubt that they were performed this way. But I doubt that most of the songs were conceived with this performance situation in mind when they were written. Some were written for particular celebrations and I think that Dowlands "layout" was part of a sales strategy. Also the quote seems to talk about part-books (note the plural) and not a lute song book. It could mean either, but Madrigal books were I believe published in seperate part books. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Why re-entrant tuning?
In einer eMail vom 13.10.2006 20:05:06 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > So is this why the gittern is also tuned re-entrantly? For the campanile > effects? Given that it's so much smaller than a theorbo, and has wire strings > as well, the issue of breakage and tension would be appear to be less of an > issue. > Hi, what do you mean by gittern with wire strings ? If you are talking about the cittern then the tuning of the cittern probably has something to do with plectrum playing. It is often quite usefull having the melody notes on the outside strings. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: There is thy Sting
In einer eMail vom 14.10.2006 20:34:47 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > That's okay, I guess, but I think that it's our sacred duty not to > encourage them! Sacred Duty! Don't get saying that about sting or even anything less extreme (as I did) as people seem to start writing poems about you :) I personally don't think it is our sacred duty, I think it is just better to state what your ains truly are and not to trick an audience with cheap propaganda. My point is that the press discussion seems so fixed on the idea that ALL singers apart from Sting are bel canto singers or Andreas Scholl. I am lucky enough to work with a singer who can clearly articulate every word and sing with a voice powerful enough to not need a microphone and effect units to simulate a voice. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] There is thy Sting
Hi, you may have wondered about my lack of sting comments, well I have been having tremendous fun lurking around various forums. It is so amusing reading sting fans who see him as the saviour of renaissance singing. The observer published an article about the BBC message forum where the general tenor is that the CD is not so wonderful. That is all opinion, but what is interesting is how the early music worlds aproach to Dowland performance is viewed on the basis of one Andreas Scholl CD in the observer article. Here are the obvious mistakes in the article.. 1. What does the counter-tenor voice have to do with Dowland ? Purcell maybe, but the majority of Dowland CD's by hip performers used Sopranos or Tenors and nobody in the early music world has ever said that a male alto voice was the standard voice for Dowland. Also we are many years away from wagner style sopranos singing Dowland 2. Sorry but how ever quaint, Dowlands songs were not designed for singers sitting around a table. This was a way to publish Dowlands songs, as we now have songbooks for Metallica. But it does not mean that metallica sit playing their songs from music stands on stage. Many of the songs were written for court perormances and would have been performed by trained professionals. So they were not designed for amateurs, but were published as the metallica songbooks for amateurs to sing. Even these amateurs would have had some training how ever that might irritate some modern free spirits. It is so amusing to hear Edin (in an interview for the DG Mag) say he doesn't think you have to read 30 books or be part of a lute cult to be able to play the lute well. But I think that reading 30 books about the lute and being a member of a lute society (which is I suppose what he means) probably does help you to understand the music more deeply. If any of you are in Belgium for the meeting of one of those evil "Lute Cults" look forward to seeing you there best wishes Mark There is thy Sting James Fenton on new tunes from an old lute Saturday October 14, 2006 The Guardian Sting's new album, Songs from the Labyrinth, consists almost entirely of music by John Dowland. It has caused a deal of outrage among contributors to Radio 3's unpleasant message board. Nevertheless, the match is not so surprising: Sting is a most distinguished popular singer-songwriter; Dowland (1563-1626) has in recent years become a very popular composer. Dowland's Lachrimae, a collection of dance music - pavans, galliards and almands - is, according to one expert, "probably the most recorded and performed collection of instrumental music before the Water Music or the Brandenburg Concertos." Dowland represents his age for us, as Handel and Bach represent theirs. But this rise to fame happened rather recently, essentially in the past 50 years. The counter-tenor voice, the copies of period instruments such as the viol, the art of the lutenist - everything had to be revived and to a great extent reinvented before we could hear Dowland as he sounds today when sung by, say, Andreas Scholl. By the time of the Restoration, the composer's work had been forgotten in England, and it continued forgotten or devalued in subsequent centuries. Most of the lute music was not published until 1974. The complete songs had been edited only 50 years earlier. Lachrimae awaits a proper edition. (All this, according to Peter Holman's handy Cambridge Music Handbook to Dowland.)What this means is that there is no authentic style, no historical style, for singing this repertoire. Look back a full century from now and the tradition just peters out. It is not like the tradition of reading and enjoying Elizabethan verse, which can be traced back without difficulty to Keats and beyond. Nor is it like the tradition of performing Shakespeare, which, allowing for its regular and radical transformations, is almost continuous. It is instead a long-broken tradition, a lost art revived. And it would be ridiculous to suppose that the last word has been said, or sung, on the subject, or the last insight achieved.This much should be common ground. In interviews, Sting was careful to emphasise the historical dimension to vocal style. Dowland's lute songs are designed for singers and musicians sitting around a table. The layout of the text allows for this, as the helpful booklet in the CD illustrates. This is not the context, or the idiom, for a Brunnhilde. Sting conceded that his own voice was untrained. But, he said, he could sing in tune, and he knew how to sing a song - that is, he knew how to put over a song so that it would communicate its emotion and its meaning.Nothing that the voice does on the resulting disc is unintended or beyond the singer's limitations. You may not like a particular effect - you may, quite simply, not like this voice at all - but everything proceeds from the original proposition: that a popula
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
In einer eMail vom 12.10.2006 21:40:00 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Somehow the modern "hip" - in my opinion - has accepted > too soft playing. Could not agree more Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
In einer eMail vom 12.10.2006 21:13:13 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > unfrettable > diatonically tuned strings (as many lute types had) just couldn't cope > across their full range in modulation. That is the reason that the mandora became popular and why it is probably the better continuo instrument for late german baroque music, than theorbo or archlute. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
In einer eMail vom 12.10.2006 18:01:43 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > And, sure, technique will be different, too I think someone earlier spoke about playing closer to the bridge, I think this important, 99% of the time none of my fingers are near the rose at all, most often at least 1 cm away. I think this produces much more volume. After ALK first heard me play he asked if my lutes were so loud or it was my playing, I think it is probably a mixture of both. A few months ago we played in Bamberg for just under a 1000 audience and people who were right at the back said they could hear every note of the lute. I think it was due to the wonderful acoustics of the hall, but also due to the bass lute I was using. Bigger lutes just have a bigger sound and you can play even closer to the bridge, in relation to a smaller g lute. Probably using bigger lutes and heading towards the bridge is the HIP way to deal with these problems. In the end sounds better and looks cooler than a single strung archlute :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
In einer eMail vom 12.10.2006 16:53:31 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Because of something Linda Sayce said about the mandora Without saying anything too definite about what Lynda said, it may be that the lute never died out in the way that we think. Maybe the mandora and guitar existed alongside one another with an interchangeable repertoire and maybe infleuncing each other. It is a bit like saying that the lute died out when the baroque lute came along. But I am not an expert on this period and I may have not got the point at all. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
In einer eMail vom 11.10.2006 22:18:38 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > What's your theory? I don't know enough to have my own theory, but I think that this period probably holds some surprises. Maybe the mandora was more widely played that we think and it seems that the guitar and mandora were at least sometimes interchangeable. If Linda is on the list maybe she can say something best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
In einer eMail vom 11.10.2006 21:51:38 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I for one never made that assumption. In my view the guitar > prevailed, whereas the lute died. The guitar may have gone through > some hard times in the 19thC, but it has successfully evolved into > one of the most versatile of modern instruments, capable of playing > all forms of Western music. The lute was not able to accomplish this. > > David R > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.rastallmusic.com > The problem with most of these theories is that they don't include the mandora in the plot, if you would have heard Lynda Sayce's excellent talk at the lute society some time ago, you would probably think somewhat differantly about the lute's demise. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: more Sting
In einer eMail vom 11.10.2006 16:58:20 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Apparently as early as 2001 Sting has collaborated with Luca Pianca, (of > the > Il Giardino Armonico (and the "S") fame). > RT In one of his interviews sting said his secret was always to work with the best musicians. It seems this doesn't apply to his choice of lutenists. Luca Pianca is the king of HUP (historically un-informed performance). I always found it so amusing that Il Giardino Armonico claimed to play on historical instruments and then this fantasy lute right at the front. Just shows how little "Big" classical record companies know about the music they are selling. He is basically a classical guitarist with a touch of technicolour robin hood style. What you say about the DG technician wanting the Sting CD to be recorded as it was, is very strange. I can't believe that anybody from a classical background would ever think of recording a lute song CD in this way. Poor sting he can't even decide how he wants to record his lute. Thanks also for your poetic insults, from you they can only be seen as compliments. A pity more people didn't enjoy your work, probably landed in the spam folder of many the list. All the best Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Besser als jeder andere
Hi, forget about the A, B and other lists we now have the official view from the DG magazine KlassikAkzente "Edin Karamasow, 41, spielt Laute. Besser als jeder andere und vornehmlich mit Andreas Scholl. " http://www.klassikakzente.de/edin_karamazov_die_laute_aus_dem_labyrinth_114921.jsp Translated Edin Karamasow, 41, plays the lute. better than anyone else and preferably with Andreas Scholl. I think this shows the sort of marketing the Sting CD uses - this is it, forget about everything else. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 11.10.2006 04:48:49 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Andrew Lawrence-King has been sticking his double-harp everywhere he could, > > including Biber. > Go bark up that tree. > RT > I am not an expert on historical harps and maybe a double-harp is not the historically correct instrument. But I must say that ALK has a feeling for ensemble playing that is totally lacking on the Dowland CD. This is probably caused mostly due to the recording method, which from videos seems to have been a typical rock set-up with them seperated acoustically. The TV performances are much better, probably due to this. In the end, I as it seems most of the listeners who do not have a personal connection to the project or are sting fans, find the CD interesting before they hear it, but in the end musically unsatisfying. In a couple of months the media will have forgotten about it and in the end as I have said I don't think this CD will bring the big lute boom (sadly). But maybe that is good because if it means we have to return to the sort of 19th century view of music history that Sting favours. I personally think that the basis of any approach that claims, as sting does to be "closer than how anybody else to how the music would have sounded" need to be based on more serious research. If I was so interested in how the music sounded then maybe a single strung strung lute, vocal compression, digital reverb and such close miking are not the answer. In the end I would never say that my approach is closer than what anybody else has done. My view is that the claims Sting makes for his CD are false and misleading especially to an audience new to this repertoire. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 10.10.2006 13:40:02 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Actually I already suggested to my Duo-Partner to start an action "A > tribute to Sting" for lutenists and to perform hits by Police and Sting on > Lute(s). > > I would offer to collect all contributions :) > > Best wishes > Thomas Sorry not interested in this repertoire is too old fashioned :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Terzi and hip
In einer eMail vom 10.10.2006 11:25:27 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > No hip-police out there with a comment on this? > I hope I don't get thrown out of the force :) Sounds good, pity Sting didn't give either of you a ring. Sorry to dissapoint, but what my ears finds so distressing is the romantic rubato at all the difficult parts and bad ensemble playing on Mr. Stings CD. If he uses a single string Les Paul that is his choice. Just don't say it is an historical lute. I would do some shameful promotion of my new CD, but it seems to be doing quite well on it's own, it went stright to the top of the magnatune charts and so far using the same method as Roman it seems we have sold just over 1/300th of what Sting has sold here in Germany, but we have less than a 1/300th of the promotion. But our reviews are a bit more positive than Sting's:) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
