[LUTE] Re: Archlute strings
On Jul 1, 2008, at 12:38 AM, LGS-Europe wrote: I don't fly much, but when I do I prefer an extra seat for the lute. This instrument in its case is just under 140cm, the other one over 155cm. Size matters in small planes and taxis. It certainly does. Toy planes are historically incorrect. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: very low pitch
Tony Iommi picked up the guitar as a teenager, after being inspired by the likes of Hank Marvin and The Shadows. Just like Nigel North. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Decisions, decisions
On Jun 30, 2008, at 4:14 PM, sterling price wrote: You just might find the left hand fingerings easier on the fingers than the ren-lute. But be sure your arthritic joints can handle the right-hand stretches. Imagine a few more courses on your nine-course. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
On Jun 29, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: This strikes me as the second most useless remark ever made about music, well ahead of the third-place opera in English makes about as much sense as baseball in Italian. (H.L. Mencken) You would reconsider the uselessness of it- if you ever apply yourself to a creative process. What creative process would make me reconsider baseball in Italian? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Professor Harold Hill wrote: all this 'quibble' about how to play music is interesting but pointless. True enough. There's nothing more pointless than musicians who want to know what they're doing. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
On Jun 28, 2008, at 5:26 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote: As Ray Nurse said yesterday (and I know he was quoting somebody else) A quick web search will turn up attributions to Elvis Costello, Laurie Anderson, Frank Zappa, Robyn Hitchcock, Thelonius Monk, Miles Davis and (don't ask me why) Woody Allen and Steve Martin. talking about music is like dancing about architecture. Or more commonly writing about music is like dancing about architecture. This strikes me as the second most useless remark ever made about music, well ahead of the third-place opera in English makes about as much sense as baseball in Italian. (H.L. Mencken) In any event, I think it's properly understood to mean that using words to describe or analyze the music itself is a pointless exercise (whether this is true in any given instance depends on what ideas need to be conveyed, and the writer's facility with words--for some writers, writing about anything at all is as pointless and meaningless as dancing about architecture). But I don't think our anonymous pundit meant to dismiss discussions about execution. A teacher explaining to a student how to do something is not dancing about architecture, and similarly a discussion of whether an apoggiatura should be half as long as the main note or twice as long as the main note is not dancing about architecture. It's just detailed nuts and bolts if you're serious about the music, and trivia if you're not. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Meantone
On Jun 19, 2008, at 8:18 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D major to Bb major. There goes meantone out the window. I have no idea what temperament Muffat liked, but those of us who keep our renaissance lutes in some sort of meantone have no problems playing in D and Bb without resetting frets. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Meantone
On Jun 18, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a more or less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments like lutes or viols, As far as I know, the historical evidence consists mostly of: 1) Actual instructions for fretting the instruments, which describe unequal temperament; 2) Theorists implying equal fretting; and 3) Metal-fretted instruments all in unequal temperament. It's difficult to reconcile the second category with the other two. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: John Donne
Rob MacKillop wrote: What lute and voice settings are there of poems by John Donne (a long-time favourite poet of mine)? I'm also interested in settings for viols and voice or voices. Ferrabosco set The Expiration as So, so, leave off this last lamenting kisse (the seventh song in his book). I just did a web search and found this irritatingly tantalizing feature about Donne's poetry in songs: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/was- john-donne-the-cole-porter-of-his-time-491049.html It will tell you: By searching music manuscripts in the British Library and the Bodleian in Oxford, Holmes found 10 settings of Donne's verse made by some of the leading English composers of his day, including John Dowland, Orlando Gibbons, Alfonso Ferrabosco and William Corkine. But gets no more specific than that. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: John Donne
There's also: William Corkine: Break of Day (Second Booke of Ayres) John Hilton: A Hymn to God the Father And see: http://www.matthewwadsworth.com/Donne-info.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: John Donne
On Jun 16, 2008, at 3:45 PM, Rob MacKillop wrote: Together with Marlow, Donne and Dowland shared the same female patron, Lucy, Countess of Bedford. It must have been an interesting night. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Palestrina's lute (was Musical Crimes etc)
On Jun 8, 2008, at 3:03 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: I have a vague memory of hearing that Palestrina had a lute handy when composing. If you google palestrina lute mass into google (without the quotes) you should pull up a page of Jessie Ann Owens' The composer at work from Amazon that quotes letters about Palestrina using the lute to compose. Oor try this: http://books.google.com/books? id=9Xc_EXNgf00Cpg=PA293lpg=PA293dq=palestrina+lute +masssource=webots=cAz_AAI-amsig=PslpZZMII4v9Qh51ZArJ- t_YI60hl=en#PPA294,M1 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Palestrina's lute (was Musical Crimes etc)
On Jun 8, 2008, at 2:46 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: The Amazon site gives a lot of detail about Palestrina, and confirms that he used the lute while composing. Jessie Owens' book certainly looks a good read. I was mistaken in saying it was an Amazon site, BTW. It's Google Book Search. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: medieval plectrum, how to make?
On Jun 6, 2008, at 5:37 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: My experiences with ironing goose quill, at least a split quill, have not been good. Maybe you should try removing it from the goose first. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
You mean loaded gut is impossible? On Jun 5, 2008, at 12:00 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: There is no way to change the specific weight or mass of a gut string by chemical means. If someone were to claim that there are ways to chemically change the gut to make it heavier, that would be classed as some kind of alchemy. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
On Jun 5, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Loading gut is adding physical mass by adding a substance denser than gut, not chemically altering the gut itself. If I'm not mistaken, loading is essentially infusing, which would be process similar to dyeing. Perhaps I'm mistaken. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: I don't think you are mistaken; however, that still would not involve a chemical change of the gut material itself. Does dyeing? The question, if I am again unmistaken, was whether a process used for dyeing might incidentally increase the density/ weight of a string. As far as I can see, adding anything to the string's innards is going to increase its density, though the increase may be negligible. Anyone who uses gut strings knows they get denser from absorbing water when the humidity rises. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Makes perfect sense for the 7th course. ...but the top two? Those are probably the easiest two strings to find. Good point; I misread your first post. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
On Jun 2, 2008, at 2:06 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: How do do we (ie you) know, without prejudging the issue, that 1) the actual range of sizes of surviving instruments is much larger This implies you are able to identify double re-entrant instruments from single (not to mention archlutes)- which may indeed be smaller; So a toy theorbo is anything smaller than 93cm? 2) 99 cm is extremely large by any standard Again you're prejudging the issue. In fact this size fits with the largest extant instruments, Yes, the largest instruments would be, by definition, extremely large. 3) Praetorius never got within 400 km of Padua, let alone Rome. So? Do you really think there was little or no communication within Europe at the time? Communication would not necessarily mean everything Praetorious wrote about theorbos, Rome or Padua would be accurate, or even make sense. We have more communication now than we can deal with, and there's plenty of inaccuracy and nonsense floating around. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
On May 26, 2008, at 7:22 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Howard, Without going back to square one and repeating subsequent postings, Much to the relief of the entire list, I'm sure. what I was hoping to say in my last email was that, despite his 'critique', all the theorboes offered on Barber's website (other than his singular 'own design') supported my views on theorbo sizes. Your meaning was clear. I disagree that Barber's choice of which theorbos to copy bears on the point. He's making instruments, not history. Praetorius in the scaled drawings of Paduan and Roman theorbos (c. 99 and 93cm) indicates only a small(around 6%) difference between the two. But this is silly verging on weird, since we know 1) the actual range of sizes of surviving instruments is much larger; 2) 99 cm is extremely large by any standard, and 3) Praetorius never got within 400 km of Padua, let alone Rome. Further, the variations in the very few reported pitches in 17thC Italy does not exclude local variations, not to mention transposition and the general uniformity of vocal ranges tending towards a degree of standardisation. It seems to me that much of the problem about pitches , especially in the 17thC and especially in Italy, is the heavy, if understandable, reliance on church organ pitches and, to some extent, statements by such as those by Doni (eg relating these pitches at Naples, Rome. Lombardy/Florence and Venice in discrete semitone steps). Domestic music making, especially with lutes, might well have not reflected such a significant and discrete variation --- On Sun, 25/5/08, howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 25 May, 2008, 7:02 PM On May 25, 2008, at 12:46 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Very good mt dear Howard - but really not at all. I very much welcomed your informed contributions as testing the envelope of knowledge by citing early sources and organological data rather than assertions based simply on personal preference. Sorry if you thought it at all wrathful! However, my complaint about Barber goes back many years (when I had the temerity to first question his identification of the 'Chambure vihuela' as a typical instrument for the early 16thC repertoire and his continuing failure to mention organolgical work undertaken by many others), and more recently (pasted below) when I pointed out that, despite his most recent criticism (and personal abuse)of me for advocating large theorbos, in fact his own website supported my position! You have an expansive view of what supports your position. I suppose this is because your view is essentially an answer without a real question, and thus meaningless, or at least nonsensical. Making a blanket statement about the historical size of theorbos without factoring in the question of absolute pitch is like making a blanket statement about how long a piece of rope should be. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
[LUTE] Re: heorbo sizes; theorbo definitions
On Jun 1, 2008, at 5:58 PM, David Tayler wrote: Perhaps the answer, as far as theorbos go, is to have a new definition of theorbo. What's the question, exactly? Slim chance that everyone will agree on the definition, but perhaps a collective attempt is the way to go. I propose the following: Theorbo A bass lute or renaissance lute with an extended neck enabling additional, unfretted bass notes: instruments based on, or developed from these models. This definition includes archlutes and most baroque-era lutes, which makes it useful for persons who are not lute-literate and useless as a term of art for us insiders. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
On May 25, 2008, at 12:46 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Very good mt dear Howard - but really not at all. I very much welcomed your informed contributions as testing the envelope of knowledge by citing early sources and organological data rather than assertions based simply on personal preference. Sorry if you thought it at all wrathful! However, my complaint about Barber goes back many years (when I had the temerity to first question his identification of the 'Chambure vihuela' as a typical instrument for the early 16thC repertoire and his continuing failure to mention organolgical work undertaken by many others), and more recently (pasted below) when I pointed out that, despite his most recent criticism (and personal abuse)of me for advocating large theorbos, in fact his own website supported my position! You have an expansive view of what supports your position. I suppose this is because your view is essentially an answer without a real question, and thus meaningless, or at least nonsensical. Making a blanket statement about the historical size of theorbos without factoring in the question of absolute pitch is like making a blanket statement about how long a piece of rope should be. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
On May 24, 2008, at 6:52 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: I note with interest that Arto's calculator allows us to work out the stringing for a 10m theorbo - what shall we say for the fingerboard strings, only 5m? Anything shorter than 3 meters is a toy theorbo anyway. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Choosing Strings
On May 24, 2008, at 10:26 AM, Gernot Hilger wrote: Don't say that too loudly. You'll fall prey to Stephen Barber's wrath. Ask Martyn! I'm far more likely to fall prey to Martyn's wrath. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: knots
On May 22, 2008, at 10:02 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote: Am I inviting trouble if I attempt Ed's barrel/blood knot with gut? My experience with using leader is that gut is more likely than nylon to break at the knot eventually, nylon more likely to slip. Neither problem is serious and you should have lots of trouble-free playing. Indeed, if you arrange it so the knot rests on the nut, it will prevent sticking at the nut. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Concerto as lute solo
On May 15, 2008, at 9:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By the way, is it known, in which pitch Vivaldi's orchestra was using? The short answer is no. To answer the question, we'd have to be sure where he was when he wrote it (he toured around a great deal) and assume he intended the pitch in that location. Then it's possible there was more than one pitch in use there. I believe Venice, his nominal home, produced wind instruments at a 466 or so in the 1600s. Two organs built there in the mid-1700s are at about 436. Orchestra is a little misleading, since it's likely everything was one player per part. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo in Spain?
On May 1, 2008, at 6:41 AM, Manolo Laguillo wrote: In the DICCIONARIO DE INSTRUMENTOS MUSICALES, Barcelona 2001, under 'tiorba', the author of it, Ramon Andres, after mentioning an inventar of possesions of Felipe II, the king of Spain, where two theorbos figure, Are we really talking about Felipe II here? He died in 1598, which seems early for theorbos to be in Spain. Felipe III died in 1621 and Felipe IV in 1665. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Kind of explanatiom?
On May 3, 2008, at 10:11 AM, The Other wrote: Admittedly, I don't follow the news as closely as I should. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: gnu piece of the month
On May 1, 2008, at 9:50 AM, Mark Wheeler wrote: To play the devil's advocate.. I doubt if music for the average 21st century teenager is any less important than it was in 15??. I don't think they would see it as merely an extra. Ron's point is that everyone in some levels of renaissance European society was trained to produce music, rather than merely consume it. Big difference. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help request
On Apr 29, 2008, at 8:19 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: A friend of mine is wring a short article on the state of affairs in contemporary composition for lutes/citterns, and he asked me to assist in gathering the information. I don't know whether the planned new lute composition index by Lynda Sayce and David PArsons was ever published, so we are soliciting the Collective Wisdom for citations, as substantial as possible for the 14 composers mentioned in the Wikipedia Article (I am familiar with the work of 4-5 of these), as as any others not mentioned there. RT Richard Darsie has written original works for lute duet. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month
On Apr 30, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: When singing part music, a singer only had one part to read, and did not have the luxury of scanning the complete score to see where he or she could add bits here or there. Neither does the first oboe player in an orchestra playing Handel or the lead guitarist in a rock band, but it doesn't stop them from ornamenting. A skilled singer who understood the style (and all skilled singers understood the style) wouldn't need a score to know what was going on, particularly if the music was actually rehearsed. The object was to blend and to be a pleasing part of the whole. Zarlino, in _Istitutioni harmoniche_, 1558, wrote: Matters for the singer to observe are these: First of all he must aim diligently to perform what the composer has written. He must not be like those who, wishing to be thought worthier and wiser than their colleagues, indulge in certain rapid improvisations that are so savage and so inappropriate that they not only annoy the hearer but are riddled with thousands of errors, such as many dissonances, consecutive unisons, octaves, fifths, and other similar progressions absolutely intolerable in composition. Then there are singers who substitute higher or lower tones for those intended by the composer, singing for instance a whole tone instead of a semitone, or vice versa, leading to countless errors as well as offense to the ear. It sounds like ornamentation was common in part-singing, unless Zarlino was inclined to waste a lot of ink on a non-existant problem. None of this is dispositive on the question of whether a lutenist should ornament polyphonic lines. As usual, two readers can examine the historical sources and come to different conclusions. I am fortunate not to have to confront the problem in practice, since I am sufficiently untalented that simply getting the written notes is more than enough to occupy my hands. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kirnberger on lutes and temperament
On Apr 27, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Dale Young wrote: It was, however, the time when the best music was written for it, ever. 1779? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mille Ducas
On Apr 19, 2008, at 2:02 AM, Peter Martin wrote: I don't know who the SCA are, There's your problem. Had you known you were dealing with the Society for Creative Anachronism, you'd have known pretty much what you needed to know. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reportage (was Re: Aarrrgghhhh!!!)
On Apr 17, 2008, at 8:38 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED], apparently in all seriousness, wrote: And I defy you to come up with one honest, factual example of Rush Limbaugh actually lying versus him merely presenting an informed opinion that differs from yours. For outright falsehoods, try: http://mediamatters.org/items/200502180006 http://members.aol.com/Falconnn/rushlie.html http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1995/05/fair.html http://barkingdingo.blogspot.com/2005/08/more-rush-limbaugh-lies.html -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany
On Apr 17, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: Re the German Lute Society's Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique und Zugleich der Composition, Rob wrote: Is there any possibility that this will be translated into English? It comes with an English booklet. Here are some excerpts of a review I wrote in the LSA Quarterly a while ago: The manuscript, housed in recent years in the Prague University Library and the Lobkovicz family library in Rudnice, has been considered a significant source of information about playing continuo on the d-minor-tuned baroque lute. But it's at once both more and less than that. For modern readers, it's a different way of looking at music. Most of us learn continuo, if at all, as a sort of addendum to technique and theory, part of our understanding of how the key system works. The Fundamenta shows a musical culture in which continuo was an organic, integral part, even though musicians still thought modally. * * * The book begins with the very basics -- the lute's strings, the notes of the scale -- and proceeds into harmony, a bit of counterpoint, and a few elements of composition. Along the way it explains and gives examples of harmonic progressions and continuo notation, including such fine points as how to elaborate the treble line to avoid (or disguise) parallel fifths and octaves. It explains preparation and resolution of dissonances, and how specific chords come about and where they lead. It gives capsule descriptions of musical forms (overture, slow and quick allemandes, courante, air, bourree, rigaudon, gavotte, minuet, sarabande, rondeau, canarie, passepied, gigue, march) and then offers preludes to demonstrate how to play in the usable keys. It ends, a bit anticlimactically, with illustrations of the eight clefs a musician was likely to encounter. All musical examples are given in on two parallel staves, one in continuo notation (bass clef with figures) and the other in tablature. The result is a good look at what continuo notation meant to the author, and it's often surprising. The book is downright capricious about the octave in which the bass part sounds. Where the continuo part goes from second-space C to second-line B and back, the tablature part takes the C's down an octave on the lowest (11th) course, so the line jumps a ninth twice instead of going up and down a semitone. This, like many such instances, maximizes use of open strings, but elsewhere the line is just as capriciously taken up an octave. There is a similarly free attitude about whether to play reiterated bass notes. A major surprise is the variety and complexity of the realized parts. Above the continuo line, the tablature shows arpeggiations, melodic elaborations, and moments of free fantasy. There is little explanation in the text of what this all means. The author may have been offering a manual for improvisation, giving the continuo line as a harmonic framework. Or he may have been suggesting a free and creative approach to playing continuo. * * * The text is spare, even cryptic, as if the author were being charged by the word. If I understand the editors correctly, the original is mostly in Latin, with a few Germanisms and an occasional German passage. The main volume has the original text and a parallel column with Mathias R=F6sel's German translation and editorial notes. An English translation of the Latin (also by R=F6sel) is in a separate booklet, which has marginal references to the page in the main volume but no tablature or staff illustrations, so the English reader must toggle back and forth between books. The editors try to make the task easier with marginal notes keying the English text to two sets of page numbers: those of the main volume and those of the original manuscript folios (which are printed in the main volume's text). This feature would be more of a convenience if the cross-references were always correct, which they aren't. The English version lacks, for the most part, the German version's explanatory notes. It suffers from occasional awkwardness of the sort that could have been avoided by having a native English speaker read it before publication (Some of the abbreviations could not be dissolved because of bad legibility. After all these rules have been aforesaid now follows their execution.). Other passages can be sticky because the linguistic concepts are strange (concert becomes pleasant according to fantasy), and R=F6sel apparently wants to avoid imposing his own views on the text. The bottom line is that this is a German book, not an English one, and it shows. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique
After I quoted parts of my review of Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique und Zugleich der Composition someone asked if the shortcomings of the English fascicle were such that I'd recommend against buying it. The answer is a qualified no. It's a valuable book, offered for a mere 15 Euros, and anyone who wants to play continuo in d minor should have it. And as long as Mathias was being, as he put it, shameless, he might have offered a few words about how to order it from the Deutsche Lautengesellschaft. I just took a quick look at its web site, and it wasn't obvious. The cross-referencing glitches and the occasional translation awkwardness are annoyances, but will not prevent a native English speaker from figuring out what's going on. But for someone whose English skills are not good, it may be another story. So I wouldn't recommend Fundamenta for George W. Bush. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] OT: Reportage (was Re: Aarrrgghhhh!!!)
On Apr 17, 2008, at 6:25 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim wrote: Fact-checking takes time, and editors must be paid, so accurate reporting is time- and labor-intensive. Today's blogosphere, which rewards unschooled right-wing loudmouths who spew half-truths and worse, has no interest in that. To be truthful, and after all isn't that what we all want, this is not limited only to the right wing blogoshpere, nor the right wing as a whole. Evidently it extends to people on this list. There are many on the left who are rewarded quite handsomely for publishing their half truths and lies. Film makers who produce alleged documentaries and former Vice Presidents who claim to have invented the Internet For the benefit of those outside the USA, the reference is to Al Gore, who when he was vice president of the United States, told Wolf Blitzer of CNN in a March 9, 1999 interview: During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. This is a statement that, as a legislator, he had pushed for creation of the internet, not a statement that he personally invented it. But it was very deliberately mischaracterized by Gore's political enemies (of which he soon had many, since he was running for president) who said, obviously without quoting what Gore actually said (just as Craig did here), that Gore claimed to have invented the internet. This was, alas, not confined to the blogosphere. Americans are not sophisticated consumers of information, and are easily lied to. Oddly enough, Gore did say he personally invented an instrument called the continuo. Though the Gore says he invented the internet story is not so much an urban legend as an outright lie, it's dealt with at the Snopes.com web site, which investigates and reports on urban legends. I recommend it: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp Sorry for the interruption. Back to lutes. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Less OT: Reportage
A propos of the Snopes Urban legend web site, I meant to mention that you can find a debunking of a truly idiotic story (a column in the Houston Chronicle) about Itzhak Perlman playing an entire concerto on three strings at: http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/perlman.asp To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aarrrgghhhh!!!
On Apr 17, 2008, at 1:26 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: I was going to write to him and the guy who wrote the article, but thought better of it. We reap what we sow. It's not the first time I've had quotation remarks around comments I never made. Seems to be the way reporters work. Nothing to be gained by picking a fight. You can write to explain that you never said what what's attributed to you, or that you said something different, without picking a fight. Just saw your intriguing and well-written article, but -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aarrrgghhhh!!!
On Apr 16, 2008, at 5:07 PM, David Rastall wrote: There's more garbage in that one short article than you get on our local tip in a year. Agreed. I love the bit about these long-necked lutes called continuos. Click on the continuos link. It will take you to page with nothing about lutes or continuos, but a with few women in G-strings. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pavana
This particular piece is a version of a well-known tune called La Gamba, which in many sources is called a galliard. If you play it as galliard, the walking steps of the duple pavan fit perfectly. The same is true of the triple-time pavan in Milan's El Maestro. There was a tradition of notating galliards in duple time. The LSA Quarterly had articles about it in January 1988 (by Paul O'Dette) and November 2001 (by Daniel Heiman). On Apr 13, 2008, at 6:04 AM, Stephen Kenyon wrote: I notice the Pisador vihuela Pavana muy llana para taner is notated in triple time in the Schott guitar edition, which says that the original was given in duple. Normally pavans are duple, but looking at it it does seem to insist on being triple (or is that just knowing it so long in triple?). Three questions pertain: - should this piece really be in triple time? - if so how does it end up in triple: is it a function of its being from an earlier time than many pavans we are used to? - is there an implication for tempo, eg should it be quicker than the stately progress we think of for the standard duple pavan? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hurel
Tony is talking about a modern computer-typeset edition of the Hurel Ms. On Apr 12, 2008, at 12:47 PM, LGS-Europe wrote: Dear Tony I have the 1996 Minkoff facsimile. In its colofon it says it is printed with the permission of the Piermont Morgan Library, New York, the owner of the ms. It also says photocopy prohibited. If your copy has modern folio numbers on the right hand bottom of every other page, it's a fair bet you have a copy of the Minkoff facsimile. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fingering question
On Mar 29, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: Where did Richafort find it? In a registered letter from Henry VIII. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fingering question
On Mar 29, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: Unless you have some urge to talk about Leonardo da Vinci's wandering beard. I just acquired such an urge, at least to the extent of understanding the reference. What are we talking about? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reentrant newbie questions
On Mar 25, 2008, at 6:28 AM, William Brohinsky wrote: I seek advice and help: On a student's budget, is there a source for scale and chord studies, the basics that would make the relations of the strings make more sense to someone who has been linear-all-his-life? Nigel North's book Continuo Playing has about 40 pages specifically devoted to the theorbo, including chord charts, exercises, and illustrative pieces, including the Kapsberger Toccata Arpeggiata in parallel original tablature and figured bass. The solos are in either French or Italian tab, as they were written originally. The chord charts and exercises are in French tab. It will also give you an idea of what the useful original sources are. There's a Minkoff facsimile of Grenerin's Livre de Theorbe (1668), which consists mostly of translating figured bass into French tab chords, but beware: Grenerin writes as if the re-entrant tuning does not exist. There are PDFs of French theorbo sources (the Hurel Ms, for example) on the web. Any advice for learning Italian tab for someone used to french tab? I've found that the physical relation between the strings (high pitched string towards gravity) and Italian tab (high string notated 'down') does me no good. Just do it. The only way to learn Italian tab is to play Italian tab. It isn't intrinsically any more difficult than French tab. It's probably a mistake to try learning it at the same time you're trying to learn a new tuning. You should have your brain in one frying pan at a time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Hurel download
On Mar 25, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Peter Martin wrote: I guess this is the online Hurel facsimile that you were referring to. but can you give any guidance on how to open it? I am getting tied up in an unholy tangle of e-mules without much success Use a different browser? Otherwise I have no idea. I'm using Safari 3.0.4 and it's instantaneous. But I'll attach Hurel to this email. =EF=BF1/4 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All open
On Mar 25, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: The strangest chord I have ever seen was at the start of The Creation by a baroque composer - I forget which. To represent chaos, the first chord had the numbers 7 6 5 4 3 2, or possibly 8 7 6 5 4 3 2. Can't go wrong, really. Les Elemens by Jean Fiery Rebel -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Capos
On Mar 24, 2008, at 7:18 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: Modern ones use elastic or a kind of spring mechanism Not all. I have an earlier version of this one: http://www.activemusician.com/item--MC.14FD? ref=brovchn=BIZovtac=CMPovcpn=Accessoriesovcrn=Dunlop+Professional +Guitar+Capo+%2D+Flat Easy to use and durable. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov as a circus musician
The bearded percussionist is Pedro Estevan. On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:02 AM, Sean Smith wrote: Btw, is that Lee Santana playing percussion? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland-sighting
On Mar 21, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Arne Keller wrote: Especially the bass saxophone player is good. It's a bass clarinet, but indeed sensitively played. I like the singer too. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: live lute performances recorded with a zoom h2
On Mar 17, 2008, at 2:55 PM, igor . wrote: diego ( i hope you are not italian ) is there any recorded tiorbino ? Lee Santana and Wolfgang Katschner play two Castaldi theorbo/tiorbino duets on Feast of San Rocco Venice 1608 (Sony s2k 66254) Vincent Dumestre and Massimo Moscardo play four Castaldi theorbo/ tiorbino duets (there's one more using harp instead of tiorbino) on Le Musiche di Bellerofonte Castaldi (Alpha 900). Theorbo and tiorbino are also the continuo section for the song Steffania persuasiva. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Goldberg Prize
On Mar 15, 2008, at 5:55 AM, Benjamin Narvey wrote: The fact that a generalist early music magazine chose my submission bodes well for us, in that it seems a kind of litmus test showing the interest given the lute from civilian non-pluckers. Or perhaps yours was just far and away the best submission. I suppose you've never even considered that possibility... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: More about Hor che Tempo (Merula)
On Mar 5, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Thomas Tallant wrote: Hor che Tempo is a lullaby, thus the droning quality of most of continuo part. There is a shift in tonality and mood at the end that is tricky. Overall, it's a deceptive piece: It's long and difficult for the singer (technically and dramatically); and it is also hard on the theorbist. I've heard fine recordings by Nigel North and (I think) Jill Feldman and by Maria Cristina Kiehr with La Fenice (Heritage of Monteverdi, vol. V). The Heritage of Monteverdi series offers more fine music by Merula. I'm not sure how easy it is to find the recordings anymore, but they are worth the hunt. Paul O'Dette and Emily van Evera did it at an LSA seminar years ago, a performance memorable because Paul's music kept falling off the stand. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Letter to the Editor
On Mar 3, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: How much did lute players learn about music (not just lute playing) in the Renaissance and Baroque periods? They learned what other musicians learned, and were educated in the same ways. In the renaissance, they'd learn singing, the practice of hexachords, modal theory, counterpoint and enough of the seven liberal arts to understand the philosophical underpinnings of music. See, for example, the first page of the dialogue that begins Robinson's Schoole of Musicke. In the 18th century, they learned continuo practice as well. They certainly didn't occupy the sort of peripheral position that classical guitarists occupied in the 20th century. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: true amateurs
I've clicked on this link using Safari and Netscape and all I've gotten is an in-depth knowledge of Air India fares. Any suggestions? There's a Hamburg-Rebekka-II-08.mp3 that looks something like a link, but it does nothing. Am I missing something, or is this a Mac thing? On Feb 26, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Mathias R=F6sel wrote: May I, responding to Rob's demand, introduce another amateurs' recording of two Dowland songs: http://www.esnips.com/doc/c81f0143-6dc3-42b3-b9e8-58af1f0eb24b/ Hamburg-Rebekka-II-08 The singer is my 9yrs old daughter, the lute player is me. The event was the final concert of the Hamburg players' meeting on Sun Feb 24th. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: true amateurs
For Anthony and others with the same problem, this link worked for me. On Feb 26, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Mathias R=F6sel wrote: Here's another place where I I've posted it: http://de.share.geocities.com/mathiasroesel/Hamburg-Rebekka-II-08.mp3 Hope that helps. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Songs by Women Composers
On Feb 14, 2008, at 1:15 AM, Peter Jones-RR wrote: We talked about Barbara Strozzi and Francesca Caccini - does anyone have any other suggestions? If you want to expand to solo motets, there's Isabella Leonarda (1620-1704). I suppose your partner is familiar with Barbara Garvey Jackson's extended bibliography, Say Can You Deny Me: A Guide to Surviving Music by Women from the 16th through the 18th Centuries. I bring it up only because I love the title, with its ominous overtones. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century France was the d minor tuning. The top string was usually at f. For a length of 68 cm, generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415. If you exceed 68 cm, the standard for a probably dropped a bit, as with my many years of experience, the treble will break prematurely. For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the standard should be a bit lower, .e. a = 392. No lie. 392 seems to have been the standard pitch. at least in Paris, judging from the woodwind instruments that came from there in the later 17th century. You might want to give it a try even on a 68 cm lute and experiment with the lower tension. In spite of what you may have heard recently in this part of cyberspace a propos of theorbos, French musicians generally and lutenists in particular probably were less concerned with loudness than their Italian counterparts (contemporary accounts indicate they didn't play nearly as loudly), so in stringing there are aesthetic considerations at work other than the breaking point of the high string. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music
On Feb 13, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Yes, the French seem to have played at a lower standard. Well, let's not be unkind... Even Hoppy Smith's Vieux Gaultier recording was at 392. I didn't know Hoppy was =06French. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Signor Tiorba
because then you have the book on your own computer. (If you have the space: it's nearly 49megs.) The book is volume V of the 1911 Grove's, which contains T-Z and the appendix. The entries on Vivaldi and Telemann say much about the 19th century attitude toward the 18th century. Telemann's shortcomings are most patent in his church works, which are of greater historical importance than his operas and other music. The shallowness of the church music of the latter half of the 18th century is distinctly traceable to Telemann's influence... Those remarks remained in the 1954 Grove's, which wasn't replaced until 1979. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss Vid
Blows that theory... Maybe the Weiss squad was just unusually vigilant. On Feb 11, 2008, at 1:30 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope. My YouTube submission just had the bit about This is the Introduzzione by Weiss... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss Vid
On Feb 11, 2008, at 11:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (YouTube wouldn't take it!) Just curious: Was the sentence I guess I should have friggin' checked the shot when I moved the camera closer! part of what you sent to YouTube? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? last gasp
Martyn Hodgson wrote: I now see from your mention of my guitar stringing email that you seem to equate 'information' solely with figures whereas I also include other things such as tunings, examples of solo music, etc which you do not count as information - we'll bear this in mind. Actually I was thinking of the Stradivari notes, which contained no figures, but did give clues about stringing. I was not referring to your conclusions about string tensions in the same post; I had either not noticed them or forgotten about them until I reread it just now. So you assumed that by information I meant to give the force of historical evidence to your conclusions, which in fact made no impression on me at all. That pretty much tells you what you need to know about this dialogue. Since this thread has exceeded its shelf life, I'll just summarize: There are surviving small theorbos. For each of these instruments, we can say with confidence: We don't know how it was strung and tuned historically. We don't know all the 17th and 18th-century players who owned it. We don't know that it was strung/tuned the same way by all the 17th and 18th-century players who played it. We don't know the specific musical purpose for which it was built, or the purposes for which it was actually used. We don't know where it was taken during the 17th or 18th centuries, so even with a lot of resarch, we could do no more than guess about the prevailing pitches at which it might have been played. If it was built to allow double stringing, as several of them were, we don't know whether it was ever played single-strung, or double- strung in octaves. We particularly don't know whether the second course was strung in octaves. Indeed, we can make many of the same statements about bigger theorbos, though, as you repeatedly point out, there are physical limitations that narrow the possibilities. Of course, I am equating we don't know with we have no evidence. I suppose it might not be a valid equation to practitioners of faith- based musicology. So yes, David Tayler can't claim historical support for his remark that Anything over 82 is a specialty instrument, for people with huge hands, or for people who only play in very high positions, which I assume is based on his own playing experience (I don't know about huge hands, but I'd caution that large theorbos are for people with no history of back, neck or shoulder problems), but is contradicted by other players' experience. Nor can you claim historical support for your sweeping statement that any theorbo smaller than 82 cm, or whatever your cutoff number is, had to be a theorbo in D or tuned with the second course at lute pitch. The statement assumes uniformity of practice over a century and a half, disregards questions of regional practice and pitch, and is grounded on a leap in logic from Big theorbos had to be tuned double reentrant for physical reasons to Small theorbos didn't have to be tuned double reentrant and therefore never were. BTW, you wrote: I would surprised if Lynda Sayce doesn't tune her 78cm English theorbo as single reentrant - but you'll need to ask her. In the post to which you were responding, I had written: I gather from her web site that its fingerboard strings are 80cm (thus scaled up or down from the original, depending on your point of view) and she strings it single reentrant in G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Monica Hall wrote: I was tempted to point out early on in this discussion that skips of a 7th and 9th in scale passages (known as campanellas) Campanellas are not necessarily skips of 7ths and 9ths. That's not how they're defined. They are passages of notes that ring over other notes on other strings, usually adjacent notes in what could otherwise be written as linear scale passages. are commonplace in baroque guitar music and whatever method of stringing is used (short of octave stringing on all 5 courses which is hardly practical) these can't be eliminated altogether. Not being a theorbo players I refrained but I am glad Martyn has pointed this out. I think one should be rather cautious about assuming that something that doesn't match our pre-conceived ideas about what 17th century music might have sounded like would necessarily have been a problem to 17th century players. Short of radical brain surgery, we have no choice but to approach the question with pre-conceived ideas. The more significant question is where we get those ideas. If I want to form an idea of how a composer meant passages in 17th-century guitar or theorbo music to sound, do I form those ideas from other 17th-century guitar or theorbo music, or do I spend a lot of time with the vocal music that the composer would have spent his time listening to, accompanying, composing and (probably) singing? Trying to resolve a question about solo theorbo or guitar music by referring to other theorbo or guitar music is not only circular, but it introduces a bias -- a pre-conceived idea-- from the second half of the 20th century: that solo music is what baroque guitars and theorbos were all about. The Segovia Syndrome, if you will, named after a famous guitarist who rarely played with anyone else and could go for years without getting within a mile of a singer. In the 17th century the guitarists and theorbists were part of a musical mainstream in which vocal music was dominant and it was impossible to conceive instrumental music without having vocal music in your ear. Vocal music of the 17th century does not have a lot of displaced 7ths and 9ths. Nor does keyboard keyboard music or violin music. I haven't heard them in harp music of the time, but I count myself no expert. Trying to decide how to string an instrument for Pittoni or Melli solely by referring to assumptions about Corbetta or Sanz is a fool's game. Start with Monteverdi, Rossi, and Strozzi. Then Castaldi and Kapsberger and Piccinini. At least you'll then have relevant pre- conceived ideas. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Campanellas are not necessarily skips of 7ths and 9ths. That's not how they're defined. I didn't say that they are. What I said was skips of a 7th and 9th in scale passages (known as campanellas) are commonplace in baroque guitar music. It is the scale passages that are known as campanellas not the skips of a 7th etc. Scale passages are not known as campanellas. I can sing scale passages. I can't sing campanellas. If I want to form an idea of how a composer meant passages in 17th-century guitar or theorbo music to sound, do I form those ideas from other 17th-century guitar or theorbo music, or do I spend a lot of time with the vocal music that the composer would have spent his time listening to, accompanying, composing and (probably) singing? I would suggest that you start off first and foremost by asking what would work in practice with the kind of strings which might have been available in the 17th century. This is surely the reason why the 1st and 2nd courses on the theorbo were tuned down an octave - at least that is what I have always understood. Tuning them to the upper octave was incompatible with the string length. Don't believe everything you read on the lute net. If reentrant tuning were purely a matter of necessity --an inconvenience endured for the sake of increased size (and thus volume) the theorbo wouldn't have been popular for more than a century. Reentrant tuning might have started as a concession to necessity, but it persisted because of its musical advantages, which You seem to be suggesting that instrumental music was still essentially the same as vocal music in the 17th century but surely the whole point is that instruments have their own idioms which reflect what they are capable of. They don't simple imitate vocal music - even when they are accompanying it. I hope I'm not suggesting anything other than what I said -- that the sound picture a 17th-century theorbist or guitarist had in his head was a 17th-century sound picture first and a theorbo or guitar sound picture second, and would have been dominated by the vocal models of the day. Doesn't it strike you as odd that the only instruments in which we have to discuss whether octaves should be displaced in melodic passages are the instruments about which we're unsure of the stringing? Is it more reasonable to assume that they're an island in the musical landscape, or that we haven't figured out the stringing questions? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
On Feb 6, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Rob Lute wrote: Don't believe everything you read on the lute net. Now you tell me! Well, you didn't ask... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
On Feb 6, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Campanellas are a particular kind of scale passage in which each note of the scale is played on a different string so that the notes overlap creating a bell like effect. Yes, I think we got the definition right on the third try. In that context the displaced notes are acceptable. This, of course, is a conclusion, which is based on pre-conceived ideas. Do you get the impression we're going round in circles? Reentrant tuning might have started as a concession to necessity, but it persisted because of its musical advantages What are it's musical advantages? It seems to be creating rather a problemSurely it would make more sense from a musical point of view to tune the instrument straight down from treble to bass - like the violin, harpsichord etc... Are you, baroque guitar maven, really asking what the advantages of reentrant tuning are? Singers can't strum 6/4 chords! But there are plenty of 6/4 chords in vocal music, and in any event I can't see how it bears on the point. Harpsichords can play 6/4 chords but the octave displacement we're talking about doesn't occur in harpsichord music; and even lute or keyboard in the broken style usually makes sense as separate lines. So it proves nothing to say that instruments are not voices. If you're really arguing that guitar or theorbo music should be considered in isolation in considering the octave displacement question, fine. We can agree to disagree. Doesn't it strike you as odd that the only instruments in which we have to discuss whether octaves should be displaced in melodic passages are the instruments about which we're unsure of the stringing? Is it more reasonable to assume that they're an island in the musical landscape, or that we haven't figured out the stringing questions? I see no reason why they shouldn't have their own peculiarities. Certainly other instruments do. But none of them have the particular peculiarity that you contend guitars and theorbos have. It would be interesting to know what sort of strings you are using to put a high octave string on the second course of your theorbo. Without knowing the size of the theorbo, pitch standard and nominal pitch involved, it would be merely mysterious. But my theorbo can only be single strung, so for me the split-octave second course is not an option, and neither is Melii. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
On Feb 4, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Roland Hayes wrote: I seem to remember an archlute piece (Doni ms.) that does not use a chanterelle. To me this implies that the first course was problematic at times at least (a la french 11 c. pieces w/o chanterelle) and may have been replaced with a string an octave lower for both continuo and solo pieces. There are other senza canto pieces; one is in Gianoncelli's book, I think. I'm more inclined to think they imply that first courses broke more often than others, so it was nice to have a something to play when it happened. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vuestros ojos
On Feb 2, 2008, at 7:14 AM, Daniel F Heiman wrote: Only 800 views in over 5 months??? This performance is outstanding and deserves to be much better known: Indeed, but the camera movement is pretty violent, and those inclined toward motion sickness might want to listen with closed eyes, or with open eyes on an empty stomach. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ81bbG-khM -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
Martyn Hodgson wrote: In subsequent messages I gave more information (you must have missed it): - how such small instruments were strung (just top course an octave down or at a much higher nominal pitch eg D), - early written evidence of theorbo sizes, - examples of solo music for such instruments - Again, there was no information; just your own conclusion that smaller theorbos were not tuned double reentrant. You may be confusing these posts (I've just reread them) with your post about guitar stringing, which actually contained information. and gave Lynda Sayce's website and Bob Spencer's article as providing more information. You may say that I only refer to these articles because they support the position on theorbo sizes which I take - which it is true they do - But they don't. Spencer doesn't correlate single-reentrant stringing with size. Linda Sayce does, but like you, states only her conclusions. As already said, I'm still waiting for David Tayler's and your own evidence that small theorboes (say mid 70s to low 80s) in the A or G tuning were generally strung as double reentrant. Regarding evidence to support the case that such stringing only generally applies to larger instruments (say mid 80s to high 90s), I had hoped the sources I gave were sufficiently well known to avoid me having to do more than refer to them, but obviously not. It's not that the sources aren't well known. It's that your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises. It boils down to big theorbos were strung double reentrant because they had to be; smaller theorbos didn't have to be, therefore they never were. This makes sense only if you assume that necessity was the only reason for double reentrant, an assumption which is hardly justifiable (If it's correct, you've proved that the tiorbino never existed). Players obviously liked its possibilities and gleefully exploited it in solo music. The ones that come to mind include: Praetorius (1620): Lang Romanische Theorbo:Chitarron). Scaled engraving showing an instrument with six fingered and 8 long bass courses, fingered string length 90/91cm. Tuning given as the theorbo G tuning (double reentrant). Talbot MS (c 1695): English Theorboe A tuning (double reentrant), detailed measurement and tunings given. Fingered string length 88/89cm (you tell us that you have other information on the string length of this instrument - I'd be grateful for it) The Talbot MS doesn't actually give the total length, does it? David van Edwards calculated the Talbot English Theorbo at 77 cm. See his explanation at http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/47.htm He made a Talbot theorbo for Linda Sayce. I gather from her web site that its fingerboard strings are 80cm (thus scaled up or down from the original, depending on your point of view) and she strings it single reentrant in G. Talbot MS: Lesser French theorbo in D (double reentrant) string length 76cm. If we have one 76cm French theorbo in double reentrant D and one 77cm English Theorbo in double reentrant A, we scarcely have a small- theorbo trend, let alone overwhelming evidence. 'POWER' I'm really not sure if I quite follow your argument here, Simply that it was not universally the only consideration in building or stringing a theorbo. This is not to say that it wasn't important. As I said, players and builders must have had a wide range of desires and motivations. And not everyone had to be heard in choruses in the Paris opera or with trombones in San Rocco in Venice. there is no evidence to support A or G double rentrant theorbos between the mid 70s and low 80s. And no evidence against it. There may be all sorts of practical or artistic reasons for drawing conclusions about smaller theorbos, but the appeal to history comes up empty. This whole discussion has glossed the complicating question of pitch. I have made the point before that we would expect an instrument designed to be played at AF6 to have strings about 83% the length of an instrument designed to be played at A=390. If so, all other things being equal, you'd expect that a 76cm instrument designed for AF5 to be tuned the same way as a 92cm instrument designed for A=390. Whether this was historically the case is a matter of speculation. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
I have made the point before that we would expect an instrument designed to be played at AF6 to have strings about 83% the length of an instrument designed to be played at A=390. If so, all other things being equal, you'd expect that a 76cm instrument designed for AF5 to be tuned the same way as a 92cm instrument designed for A=390. Whether this was historically the case is a matter of speculation. This got garbled in transmission; some server somewhere translated my [equals sign] 4 as an F something. I'll try to do an immune version here: we would expect an instrument designed to be played at A equals 466 Hz to have strings about 83% the length of an instrument designed to be played at A=390. If so, all other things being equal, you'd expect that a 76cm instrument designed for A equals 466 to be tuned the same way as a 92cm instrument designed for A=390. Whether this was historically the case is a matter of speculation. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy Smith, who both keeps country time and alters the performing material. RT Yes, we should. SAM Has anyone, ever? RT Oh! Oh! Over here! I have! I have! Right on this list! Do I get a prize? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
On Feb 1, 2008, at 12:44 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Not really what I wrote, but... No; as I said, I was giving more information than you did. Perhaps I made assumptions as to the general level of knowledge. In particular I took it as read that nobody believed that A or G instruments with a string length in the high 80s/90s would not require the first two courses tuned down the octave; if this is accepted than the rest naturally follows. Nothing that we've actually been discussing follows from it. Small instruments strung single reentrant certainly doesn't follow from big instruments requiring double reentrant stringing. You made the emphatic but uninformative statement that ALL the evidence on theorboes with first two courses an octave down is for instruments larger than the biggest you [i.e. David Tayler] recommend. The obvious question was WHAT historical evidence? since most of us know that there is no evidence correlating any particular known instrument to any particular tuning or pitch. So David Tayler and I both asked the question, David asking about evidence of stringing/tuning of specific surviving smaller theorbos. These were, of course, rhetorical questions to which the only rational response was an acknowledgment that your statement about ALL evidence was was unsupported. Bob Spencer's article in Early Music (available online) was one of the first papers to explain all this and, if you don't know it, it is still a good overview. I'm not sure what you mean by all this. Your statements on either side of this sentence are about the effect of specific string lengths on tuning, what's needed for the most powerful sound, and breaking points of strings. Spencer's article does not discuss these things. In short, to obtain the most powerful sound from plain gut strings requires the longest possible string length which is ultimately governed by the breaking stress of gut of the highest pitched string. There are two major problems with this statement, other than it's not bearing one way or another on the actual question. First, it's grounded in the assumption that most powerful sound is the governing consideration in stringing a theorbo. This could hardly have been universally true historically. Why even build a double-strung theorbo if loudness is all you want? Yet the majority of surviving instruments are made for double-stringing. Indeed, why build the instruments under discussion at all? An emphasis on loudness is not in keeping with what we know of French baroque aesthetic generally, and wasn't it Mersenne who said the archlutes in Italy were louder than French theorbos? I'd guess that French theorbo tone was to Italian theorbo tone as French harpsichords were to Italian ones. Players may have been more concerned with tone or playability, or with what would fit in a carriage and not get rained on. They might, like David Tayler, have been concerned with an extra .3 kilos of weight, for what reason I don't know. The range of motives and preferences of theorbists across Europe in 1635 or 1695 had to be at least as wide as our own, and almost certainly wider. Second, as we all know, size isn't everything. Bigger-is-louder is true only if all other things are equal. My Hasenfuss Raillich model is a smallish theorbo (perhaps a toy at 81 cm) but louder than a lot of big ones. It's basically the same model as Paul O'Dette's, which I imagine a lot of listers have seen. I actually had mine made 81cm instead of the standard 82cm because I wanted to be able to string it in single-reentrant in A, at 415 (I do know something about the relationship of length and tuning), which I did for a few months. It worked with a nylon high string; I wouldn't have risked a gut one, and I wouldn't have tried it at all at 440. So you can insist, as adamantly as you like, that a theorbo below a certain size (you've never said what size) had to be strung single- reentrant -- or that a double second course in octaves was/is impossible-- but it isn't helpful to claim that there's evidence to support those views, or to assume that anyone who disagrees with them simply doesn't understand and should be referred generally to previous discussions or the literature on the subject. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: G Theorbo or movie prop?
On Feb 1, 2008, at 8:43 PM, Sean Smith wrote: The movie itself didn't sync up because the actors didn't play the instruments we heard. I confess I watched most of the movie with my eyes closed. True, the on-camera playing would have looked more realistic had they used the Muppets, who do that sort of thing really well. But you may have missed the point, Sean. Let me take this opportunity to remind the lute community of Steve Hendricks' web site for the air lute http://thehendricks.net/air_lute.htm , an invaluable scholarly resource. He places Tous les Matins in proper perspective: In the movie Tous les matins du monde, the actor playing Ste. Colombe has pioneered a new area of musical endeavor. He essentially plays Air Viol, although he does so while actually holding a viol and bow! His mastery of Air Viol technique is apparent when his fingers and bow do not move with the music and fretting occurs with truly virtuosic randomness. There could be ample opportunities to apply this new and exciting concept to Air Lute, perhaps in a movie about John Dowland. It could really bring out the lack in Lachrimae. All that said, the answer to the original question is that the lute player is really playing a real liuto attiorbato, in sync. I don't think it's Lislevand, because he plays left-handed (unlike the theorbo player in the orchestra scenes). I'm sure one of the European correspondents remembers his name. An Italian lute is an interesting choice for this quintessentially French story. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
Martyn Hodgson wrote: I've already very clearly explained how small theorboes (ie up to low 80s) were tuned (and even given sources for tablature) and generally really can't be bothered to continually repeat myself. Let me see if I can summarize then: There is no historical information connecting any particular theorbo with any particular stringing, tuning or nominal pitch, though the Talbot ms does contain measurements that are subject to varying interpretations. That's actually more information than was contained in Martyn's posts on the subject (which seemed to consist entirely of categorical statements of opinion and protestations that he had already explained himself), but what the hell... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
On Jan 31, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Jerzy Zak wrote: I'm interested how one manages with the bass notes below the _d_ on the 6th course of the instrument tuned in 'd'. This is more or less one third of the statistical bass notes in an everage part to play (depending of course on period and instrumentation). I've never tried it, so take this for what it's worth: Answer 1: Manage the same way a guitarist manages without the bourdon A. Answer 2: If you have eight fingerboard strings, you're chromatic down to B-flat, so the only major problems are the low G#,F# and Eb. A small price to pay for being able to play a three-note chord over middle C in first position? http://www.theorbo.com/Instruments/Monsieur.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:56 AM, Jerzy Zak wrote: Hm..., how many of you are playing continuo on a theorbo in 'd', if it's so obvoius? I'm not sure what the it in your question is. When Ensemble Chanterelle consisted of Sally Sanford, Cathy Liddell and Kevin Mason, their basic setup was voice, theorbo in A and theorbo in D. That was a while ago. Linda Sayce says on her web site that she plays a lot of continuo on a 76cm theorbo in D. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo stringing
On Jan 30, 2008, at 4:21 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: I can string it 6/8, 7/7, or 8/6. I used to have it 7/7, but a broken string made me change to eight short and six long, and I've stayed that way ever since. Even though I could have both a low F and a stopped low F# available, I rarely take advantage of this. I tune the 8th course to F or F# depending on the key of the music, and just get on with it, as best I can. I also have 8 strings on the fingerboard, and rarely fret the 8th. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Brescianello (was) Re: mandora/gallichon music
On Jan 30, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: Surely examples in Beethoven are the Battle Symphony, or as he himself admitted the Amenda string quartet. There's the famous story of someone telling Beethoven that everyone was playing his Septet, and Beethoven responding that he wished they'd burn it instead. And what about the minuets Mozart wrote for a horse ballet? Well-wrought? They're downright primitive.sigh Well, he had to consider the string-playing ability of the horses. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G?
OK, gang: inquiring minds want to know. Is there any historical source that correlates the size of a theorbo with pitch, or tuning, or stringing (single/double courses, single/ double re-entrant)? On Jan 28, 2008, at 5:44 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: I'm merely pointing out that his advice to others is based on no evidence. I, and others, have used the expression 'toy' theorbos many times to describe such unhistorical instruments. Theorbos do, indeed, come in various sizes but those of the size he indicates would have only had the first course an octave down or be tuned much higher (as the Talbot MS's 'Lesser Fr. theorboe for lessons'). -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Forlorne Hope (was Karamazov)
Well, maybe... On Jan 25, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: I have been told, I hope reliably, that, if, at the time of Dowland, you wanted to attack an army of soldiers armed with muskets, you would first send a small group of soldiers ahead to draw their fire. Before the enemy could reload, the rest of your army attacked them. Needless to say, the men in that small group stood little chance of surviving. Perhaps you overestimate the accuracy of 16th-century muskets. The Oxford English Dictionary devotes about a column to forlorne hope. It does indeed trace it to Dutch verloren hoop, meaning lost troop. But it referred to any advance detachment of troops. The OED cites an example of a forlorne hope with scaling ladders attacking a castle wall. These soldiers were not just musket-fodder, but were expected to accomplish something. Otherwise, they'd have left the ladders behind with the second wave. In Dowland's day it also had a looser meaning of persons in a desperate condition. And, of course, it naturally developed the sense of faint hope. The earliest such use in the OED is 1641, but I suspect it was current well before then. The OED relies on written examples (obviously) and is weighted toward printed ones. Forlorne hope in the sense of faint hope started as a mistake, much like hopefully used to mean I hope, beg the question used to mean pose the question or it's problematic used to mean it's a problem are now, and such erroneous uses percolate a lot in spoken use before they make it to print in the new sense. So the Big D might have been using Forlorne Hope in the military sense, but he might have been using it in the sense of hope against hope or despairing hope that a modern person would assume. I suppose David Tayler will suggest that the title came from someone else entirely, along with half the piece. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
I find it noisy and gimmicky; a lot of look-at-me that distracts from the flow of a masterpiece. But that's a matter of taste, I suppose, as is tolerance for the slop whenever he plays sixteenth notes. But if he doesn't like the way Dowland ended the piece, he should play another piece instead of dramatically substituting a minor chord for the major one Dowland wrote. I'm sure there's a lot of lute music that's inconsequential enough that it's not a great sin to tamper with it, but Forlorne Hope isn't in that class. On Jan 24, 2008, at 9:57 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y 'nuf said... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
Are you addressing moi, David? Your remarks follow mine, but they don't have much to do with them. On Jan 24, 2008, at 11:05 AM, David Rastall wrote: I'm sure there's a lot of lute music that's inconsequential enough that it's not a great sin to tamper with it, but Forlorne Hope isn't in that class. God forbid that we should Tamper with it! ;-) Is Dowland really as etched in stone as all that? I have a number of renditions of Forlorn Hope on CD: rather bland sounding because they're played oh- so-correctly. Or because it's a fiendishly difficult piece. Karamazov's choppiness may be a way to get around the difficulty by picking up his left-hand fingers early to have them ready for the next contorted position, but it wreaks havoc with the polyphonic lines. Anyway, that aside, name one composer whose music should sound exactly the same every time it's played. Well, Conlan Nancarrow, since you asked, but that's beside the point. Nobody is suggesting that Dowland's music, or Beethoven's, should sound exactly the same every time it's played, but if some conductor rewrote the end of Beethoven's Fifth so that it ends in C minor instead of C major, he'd get laughed out of the business for thinking he knows better than Beethoven how the music should go, and it would have nothing to do with HIP purism. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov...
On Jan 24, 2008, at 11:21 AM, Ray Brohinsky wrote: I suppose playing only two notes of the last chord (and getting one of them wrong) I'm not following this reference. It sounds like you're describing my playing, but I don't think you've ever heard me. is a tremendouser sin than just changing one of the notes of the last chord, eh? It's a change in the fundamental character of the ending. And yet, considering the setting (and the title of the music) who is to say? I can't speak for the manuscript that Forlorn Hope is found in, nor the accuracy of transcription of M. Veylit's PDF collection, but I found enough errors in both mss and printed tab (period and modern) to be unable to stand on an absolute like this. Wrong letters, misplacement by a string, all sorts of things. There is one published source (Mertel's Hortus Musicalus Novus) and one manuscript source in the Cambridge Library. Both end in major. All of Dowland's minor-mode fantasies end in major. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Jan 24, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Dante Ferrara wrote: My, my. We are an overheated lot tonight! Not at all. It's midday here, and since it's the middle of one of those notoriously brutal Los Angeles winters, I'm hardly overheated. As none of us has ever met Dowland, we'll never know whether he thwacked his strings harshly near the bridge for effect or gently picked the strings near the neck joint for a different effect. And who are we to say that everything should be played straight, identical in attack, tone quality and the rest? No one here has ever said anything of the sort. Reading between the lines, Perhaps best not to, since you wind up arguing over things no one has said I reckon there are some lutenists who think every lute tune between 1500 and 1700 was played without a shred of humour or personality. Just my personal view, but I don't think Forlorne Hope should be funny. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Mark Wheeler wrote: You are absolutely right, I personally have no problem with him changing the last chord, I also would not do it Indeed... but if he wants to why not. Here's one reason why not: suppose I started this post this way: Mark Wheeler wrote: You are absolutely right, I personally have a problem with him changing the last chord, I also would not do it I've changed one word and completely misrepresented what you said. I'm lying, and committing an act of gross disrespect toward you. Similarly, if I tell you that I'm playing Dowland's music and make arbitrary changes (by which I mean deliberately rewrite the actual notes) in that music, I'm also lying, and showing a gross lack of respect toward Dowland, and if you aren't already familiar with the Big D, you may make judgments about Dowland's music that are based on those arbitrary changes. If you hear a minor chord at the end of Forlorne Hope you may think Dowland was incompetent. Or you might really like the idea of a renaissance composer who ends pieces with minor chords, and buy every Dowland recording you can find, only to be so crushed with disappointment at the uniformly major endings you hear that you commit suicide by hanging yourself with an old theorbo string. So the point is that what the hell, it's all about self-expression is not the be-all and end-all of musicianship unless you're playing the blues. There are other considerations. It doesn't mean the page is always sacrosanct, though and my view of it is that Forlorne Hope is. I suppose reasonable minds can differ about whether sticking a minor chord on the end of Forlorne Hope is significant enough to worry about (of course, if it's not significant, why do it?). Dowland would have thought it musically illiterate, just as Mozart would have been appalled if someone had rewritten his music to insert parallel fifths. I found it jarring and deflatingly anticlimactic. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Jan 24, 2008, at 2:20 PM, David Rastall wrote: Here's another idea to throw into the mix: if one is not capable of self-expression, how can one ever do justice to a work of such genius as Forlorn Hope? Hey, I am perfectly capable of self-expression, but I'd need extra fingers on my left hand to do justice to Forlorne Hope. Sigh... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Jan 24, 2008, at 2:53 PM, David Rastall wrote: No, no, you misunderstand me. I wasn't trying to insult you, Ah, but it's you who misunderstands me. I didn't think you were trying to insult me, or commenting about me. I was just pointing out that self-expression without competence isn't terribly rewarding, at least for anyone other than the self-expresser. I suppose I disagree with your premise, or perhaps with your choice of words, in which case I'm denigrating your self-expression. Obviously, a musician has to express something beyond the notes, but I don't think it's necessarily self. But this is pointing to a heavy aesthetic discussion, and I have work to do. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
On Jan 24, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Paul Kieffer wrote: i have no problem, in this case, with the last chord at all. i think that edin made this choice for his own artistic reasons that are in his head. i think it would be disrespectul to dowland only if edin made this choice to make the music more attractive to modern audiences, because this would imply that it is not good enough for 21st century listeners (edin was clearly not saying this) It's a fair guess that it wasn't good enough for Karamazov, since he changed it, but apart from that I wouldn't opine about what his message might have been. so, folks, i say that motives are very important when it comes to interpretaion. people dont seem to get this, at least here. Perhaps people don't get it because it's impossible to get. How are we supposed to know what a performer's motives are? A recorded performance exists independent of the motives that produced it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G?
On Jan 15, 2008, at 1:54 PM, Rob wrote: so why do people choose to tune to G? Is it purely because they already think 'in G', or is there another reason? G tuning (with the second course at lute pitch) seems to have been common in England. Mace wrote that the theorbo was just a big lute (our old English lute) with the first course down an octave. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] airs with lute in d minor tuning
On Jan 14, 2008, at 10:45 AM, damian dlugolecki wrote: I should have been more clear that I was interested more to know why publication of lute songs in France suddenly cease when the d minor tuning emerges. It's curious don't you think? All those volumes by Ballard and then nothing, in spite of the fact that there is some publishing of lute tablature in the 'accord nouveau' Here are my thoughts, from a recent review in the LSA Quarterly about the CD Proba Me Deus, which included music from Constantijn Huygen's Pathodia sacra et profana occupati (Ballard in 1647): Huygens wrote the songs with tablature accompaniment, but in November 1646 the edition's editor wrote to Huygens to say that Ballard wanted all the basses to be continuo and that none of them should be in tablature, and to ask that Huygens send continuo parts. The usual conclusion drawn from this is that Ballard, a publisher who had been publishing books of French songs with lute tablature for years and was himself a lutenist and composer for the lute, had concluded that the era of lute-specific songs was ending, making November 1646 a Significant Moment in the Decline of the Lute. Of course, other explanations might be that by mid-century lute tunings were changing and no longer standard, making tablature publications impractical, or that Ballard was unimpressed with Huygens' tablature parts, which are lost. Continuo was new in the early 1600's, and some publications of music included elementary instructions. By mid-century continuo skills would more widespread, and it probably made commercial sense to publish songs in a form that allowed instruments other than lutes tuned in a specific way to accompany them. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
On Jan 9, 2008, at 3:25 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: And if I might add further to the Collective Confusion we have the words of Ernst Gottlieb Baron: -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
And if I might add further to the Collective Confusion we have the words of Ernst Gottlieb Baron: As to the question of where to strike the strings of the lute so that the tone will be powerful enough, it will serve to know that this must be in the center of the space between the rose and the bridge, for there the contact will have the greatest effect. This seems to be pretty common in historical instructions. Here are a few that have been posted here over the years: Burwell Lute Tutor says For the right hand it must be placed betweene the Rose and the Bridge but nearest to the bridge your hand must lye uppon the belly of the Lute with the little finger onely which must be as it were glued unto it ... Piccinini says the basic position is halfway between the rose and the bridge (Rende il liuto, e cosi ancor il Chitarrone miglior in mezo fra la Rosa, e lo scanello; e pero in quel luoco i deue tenere la mano destra And from Dowland (or Besard?) in Variety of Lute Lessons: For the vse of the right hand. First, let your little finger on the belly of the Lvte, not towards the Rose,but a little lower, stretch out your Thombe with all the force you can, especially if thy Thombe be short,so that the other fingers may be carryed in a manner of a fist, and let the Thombe be held higher then them, this in the beginning will be hard. Yet they which haue a short Thombe may imitate those which strike the strings with the Thombe vnder the other fingers,which though it be nothing so elegant, yet to them it will be more easie. Offhand, the only historical source I can think of who talks about playing at the bridge is Mace. Any others? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Finery Filth...
On Jan 4, 2008, at 5:37 AM, Ron Fletcher wrote: He has recently discovered a book of 'bawdy drinking-songs' written by Henry Purcell, a composer we would not readily associate with this type of music. Of course we would. Purcell is known for his bawdy catches, they've been performed and recorded for decades. I'm looking right now at a 1979 LP by the Deller Consort with songs like Sir Walter enjoying his damsel and The Miller's daughter on one side and a devotional anthem on the other. Maurice Bevan wrote on the back cover, Many catches have texts of considerable bawdiness, and when the Purcell Society first published them they felt obliged to weald the censor's pen. However, in this recording we have restored the original texts, although we have been guided by the merits of the music rather than by the lewdness of the words -- though often the two go together! I'm certainly glad they weren't guided by the lewdness of the words. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Finery Filth...
On Jan 4, 2008, at 10:25 AM, Christopher Stetson wrote: Hey, let's not perpetuate the Victorian myth that the Puritans didn't like sex, Robert Adams, my favorite professor at UCLA (he was editor of the 17th century portion of the Norton Anthology of English Literature) noted that Puritans often had very large families with eight or ten children. He said You can be the biggest libertine in the world and not have that many kids. But godly devotion to duty... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Finery Filth...
He said it in class. He never finished the sentence, and I'm sure never planned to, knowing from long experience where the laughs would come. On Jan 4, 2008, at 3:09 PM, Stuart LeBlanc wrote: Could I trouble you to provide the remainder of the quote (beyond the ellipsis)? Or a citation. Robert Adams, my favorite professor at UCLA (he was editor of the 17th century portion of the Norton Anthology of English Literature) noted that Puritans often had very large families with eight or ten children. He said You can be the biggest libertine in the world and not have that many kids. But godly devotion to duty... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: metal contraption/RH on the bridge?
On Jan 1, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: and an engraving by Jan Lievens of a two-headed lute player; and this certainly is an official portrait of Jacques Gaultier. More likely Zaphod Beeblebrox. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Doubling The Parts?
What I mean is: when performing that in an ensemble, what's the point of the lute doubling one of the other parts? Projection in a large performance space may have been an issue; it could have been a way of creating a super-lute. spaces. Haydn's piano trios often have a similar texture, with the violin and cello playing what the piano plays, or vice versa. It's still fashionable to speculate that Haydn was compensating for the instrument's weak treble, or bass, or whatever. A simpler explanation is that players or listeners liked that sort of thing. It certainly makes it easier to know when you're playing the right notes, which might be a consideration in a casual evening's music-making when everyone has eaten and imbibed well. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Personal Awesomeness Index
You call it a Picasso guitar. From a review at http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=27442 Certainly the use of the Picasso guitar for The Sound of Water is an even more obvious display of the multi-dimensional musical mind of Metheny. The forty-eight string instrument seemed less of a gimmick than a practical tool to enable the musician (who helped create and design it (with Toronto luthier Linda Manzer) to bring a concept to fruition. On Dec 19, 2007, at 12:22 PM, G. Crona wrote: Whatchamacallit? Harp-psaltery-bass? Harp-bass? Multistring-guitar? Stringochordion? Ego-booster? 21st century lute? Metheny's folly? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
