Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Ed Durbrow]

On Jul 9, 2005, at 2:00 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:
> The problem is the great range of the baroque lute from
> A below the bass clef with 3 ledger lines, and over to
> (say) C an 8ve above middle C would require four ledger
> lines. Persons with expertise in musical notation advise
> against using too many ledger lines ABOVE the bass
> cleff, or too many ledgerlines BELOW the treble clef.
>
> Guitarist like Thames would advocate treble clef.  Guess
> they would want it to sound TWO octaves lower.  A little
> 15 under the clef.

Hans Neemann uses little eights by the notes that sound an octave  
below what is written (two octaves in sound) in  the 1938 Reusner/ 
Weiss edition, an adequate solution for guitarists. It works okay in  
terms of space in conjunction with the tab too except that there are  
so many mistakes in the edition.

> The standard notation of lute,
> especially baroque lute isthe grandstaff, and I do not
> see any reason to change.

The best reason I can think of would be the conservation of paper. It  
takes up half the space.

When I studied music in college, I often was 'off' by an octave in  
ear training class because I was used to (confused by) the guitar.
cheers,



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

"Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> But those are arrangements for guitar, aren't they?

in his preface, he said he transcribed the music in a way that
guitarists may use it, also. There are quite a few mistakes both in his
rendering of the tablature and in his guitar staff notation (in fact,
his edition is a facsimile of his handwriting). But, no, it is not an
arrangement.

As for bass notes that go too far below, i. e. need too many ledger
lines, Emil Vogl uses the 8va-sign. Dagobert Bruger did it, too, in his
lute method of 1926.

Best,

Mathias
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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 04:09 PM 7/8/2005, Howard Posner wrote:
> > For Mr. O'Dettes old Hyperion recording of the Vivaldi works, he played all
> > with the mandolino but RV 540.  The works that specified "leuto," he played
> > with the fingers, and those that specified mandolino he played with a
> > plectrum.  I asked him about this when he played with a baroque orchestra
> > in Cleveland a couple years ago.  I got the excessively terse and truncated
> > answer, but, in essence, he has recanted
>
>
>I'm sure he's tired of talking about it, having "recanted" years ago.


Indeed, and I certainly don't slight him for it.

Best,
Eugene 



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Howard Posner]

Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:

> For Mr. O'Dettes old Hyperion recording of the Vivaldi works, he played all
> with the mandolino but RV 540.  The works that specified "leuto," he played
> with the fingers, and those that specified mandolino he played with a
> plectrum.  I asked him about this when he played with a baroque orchestra
> in Cleveland a couple years ago.  I got the excessively terse and truncated
> answer, but, in essence, he has recanted


I'm sure he's tired of talking about it, having "recanted" years ago.

HP



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>What has confused many is
>that in treble clef, the lute sounds an octave lower.  I
>think these days this is accepted, whereas earlier
>O'Dette and others proposed a small lute to play an
>octave higher than the usual instrument.  I think Paul
>now agrees that the works are for the usual lute,
>sounding an octave lower than written.


For Mr. O'Dettes old Hyperion recording of the Vivaldi works, he played all 
with the mandolino but RV 540.  The works that specified "leuto," he played 
with the fingers, and those that specified mandolino he played with a 
plectrum.  I asked him about this when he played with a baroque orchestra 
in Cleveland a couple years ago.  I got the excessively terse and truncated 
answer, but, in essence, he has recanted; he plays the "mandolino" works on 
mandolino (unfortunately, still with a nylon guitar pick by Jim Dunlop), 
but plays the works to designate "leuto" on archlute.

Best,
Eugene 



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

Mathias,

But those are arrangements for guitar, aren't they? I
think I have that edition.  I have a copy of at least on
EmilVogl edition of Bohemian lute music, but I think it
is arranged for guitar.  I can't find it now

If he didn't do more than one.

The problem is the great range of the baroque lute from
A below the bass clef with 3 ledger lines, and over to
(say) C an 8ve above middle C would require four ledger
lines. Persons with expertise in musical notation advise
against using too many ledger lines ABOVE the bass
cleff, or too many ledgerlines BELOW the treble clef.

Guitarist like Thames would advocate treble clef.  Guess
they would want it to sound TWO octaves lower.  A little
15 under the clef.  The standard notation of lute,
especially baroque lute isthe grandstaff, and I do not
see any reason to change.  If guitarists don't wish to
learn other clefs, then let them play the repertory in a
notation they can read, and leave the other music alone.
The guitar really doesn't do justice to baroque lute
music, there are so many alterations needed to fit it to 
the
six string modern guitar.

I'll look for Emil Vogel's edition.  Could you look 
again, Mathias?

Arthur.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mathias Rösel"
Cc: lute list
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a
worldwide first- the Book of Perrine


"Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> stave. Do you? And it's virtually impossible to notate
> baroque lute music on a single stave.

Emil Vogl did it in his edition of Bohemian lute music
(Logy et al)


Viele Grüße

Mathias



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

When the lute part played in the tuttis, playing 
continuo, bass clef was used.  I suspect that sometimes 
Malipiero left out the bass line for lute in the tutti 
sections. Since the solo lines were usually a single 
line with chords here and there, the treble clef would 
suffice in the solo sections.  What has confused many is 
that in treble clef, the lute sounds an octave lower.  I 
think these days this is accepted, whereas earlier 
O'Dette and others proposed a small lute to play an 
octave higher than the usual instrument.  I think Paul 
now agrees that the works are for the usual lute, 
sounding an octave lower than written.

I sdon't trust the Malipiero edition (Ricordi), and wish 
someone would look at theoriginal manuscripts to find 
what Vivaldi actually wrote.  There is an edition 
fromProduction d'Oz ed. Peter Segal that should be 
examined. Peter is a first class schoar and I would 
expect good editorial work from himw, work thatwould 
include examination of the original manuscripts.

ajn
- Original Message - 
From: Eugene C. Braig IV
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a 
worldwide first- the Book of Perrine


At 06:37 PM 7/5/2005, Thomas Schall wrote:
>the c-minor prelude is in staff notation NOT in 
>tablature!
>Vivaldi's lute conceros are written in staff notation, 
>too. It was common to
>write the lute part in staff notation for that kind of 
>music. You'll find it
>also in Fasch and others. I don't know about Byrd 
>though ...
>I could send some facsimiles if you want me to


Furthermore, the Vivaldi works were notated on a single 
treble clef an
octave above that which seems logical for most things to 
have carried the
moniker of "leuto" in Vivaldi's time and place.  This 
has prompted some (I
believe in error) to assume all the Vivaldi lute works 
were actually
conceived for mandolino.

Eugene




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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Alexander Batov]

On Wednesday, July 06, 2005 5:44 PM "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

> 6-course guitars were rather unique to Spain.  Elsewhere the progression
> seems to have been to leave 5-course guitars single strung just before it
> became commonplace to build guitars to carry six single strings.

Some 5-course guitars were even converted to 5 single strings ...
I'm currently restoring one where the signs of 5-string pin-type bridge(!)
are present, with the only gain, as it seems to be, to get a slightly 
shorter
string length (c. 70 cm)  instead of original c.72.5cm. Difficult to be 
precise
of course but the use of the pin-type bridge can be indicative of rather 
late
conversion date (very end of 18th or even early 19th century) ... while
Spanish-made guitars were still being made with 6 double courses as late as 
1820s.

> The
> earliest 6-string guitar of which I'm aware to carry a readily datable
> label is a 1785 Fabricatore in the collection of James Westbrook.

The label of this guitar, on which I suppose the identification of this
instrument was largely based, doesn't appear to be genuine. As for the
rest, it looks to me more like one of  Leopoldo Franciolini's "master
pieces" ... or the like.

> I am a great fan of C.F. Martin's pre-Civil War guitars and late
> 19th-early
> 20th c. Neapolitan-type mandolins.  I have owned a few Martin instruments
> ranging up to as modern as 1929 and handled instruments spanning the whole
> range of the shop's production.  There have been a great many texts
> devoted
> to the shop's history and product.  C.F. Martin arrived in New York and
> began producing guitars in 1833.  Before, he worked in the
> Staufer/Stauffer
> shop in Vienna.

Jim Westbrook owns a really nice guitar by C.F. Martin which could be one of
the first he made on his own in New York, with the label still bearing
Stauffer's name. It is really beautifully made and is currently being
restored for the forthcoming concert on Monday January 16th 2006 in
Brighton.

Alexander



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Roman Turovsky]

> Ahoi Roman,
>
> did anybody discuss the recording itself here??
>
> Did you listen to the samples?
> I didn't like them very much.. Did he really prepare for years to play 
> like this?!
>
Apparently not. No self-preservation instinct, obviously.
RT


> :-)
> best wishes
> Bernd
>
>



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

I'll do that
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 8:34 AM
Subject: RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity
>
> Michael, I encourage you to educate yourself.  And if the dollops of
insult you add to your remarks are intended for comic amusement, you might
start working on some new material.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:04 PM
> To: Lutelist; Stuart LeBlanc
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>
>Earth to Stuart.earth to Stuart... are you there Stuart...hello!
> hello!  I think we lost him sir
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lutelist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:06 PM
> Subject: RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
of
> Perrine
>
>
> >
> > Right, and when the same historians talk about things "classical" they
are
> > talking about things roughly 2500 years old.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:58 PM
> > To: Lutelist
> > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> > Book of Perrine
> >
> >
> > At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance
and
> > Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that
category. It's
> > not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more
years
> > old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
English
> > Renaissance "modern".
> >
> >
> > Michael wrote:
> > >
> > >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> > >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
around,
> > >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past
and
> > >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
time
> > >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in
you
> > >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
> >
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

Am Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 19:39 schrieb Markus Lutz:
> For sure there is "lute music". But it isn´t or never has been a
> repertoire only to be played on the lute.
> Losy has been played on the lute. Weiss on the mandora and on key
> instruments, French lute music on the harpsichord etc.
> The so called lute-songs of Dowland are intabulations of  4 voices (or
> vice versa?).
> Lute music always had been solo and ensemble.
> What I´m not accepting is to use it in an exclusive way.
>
> Best
> Markus
>
You know - this is a fundamental question. The early music movement devoted 
itself to come close to what could have been the "original sound" of the 
music. 
If I'm listening to the "guitar concertos" of Vivaldi (as it is named on many 
CD-Covers) I am listening to arrangements and somehow this is putting a wrong 
label on the music. Surely - Losy himself made arrangements of some of his 
lute music because it was so popular that keyboard players wanted to play 
them. I know one arrangement of Weiss for the mandora. Nobody knows who's 
done it. But actually the instrument the music was intended to be performed 
on was the lute. If I accept a statement like "play the music on whatever 
instrument you like" I ignore the fact that the composers of the baroque 
wrote specifically for a certain instrument and with a certain sound in mind. 
I finally would end up in performances of lute music on a liuto forte 
claiming it would be possibly "better than the original". That's a romantic 
ideal. There is music you could play on a toaster and it would sound great 
but: is this the sound which was intended by the composer?
I don't have problems with arrangemenst but: often they are not productive 
(for instance: Weiss on the piano) and in any case they are arrangements. And 
very often they are simply tasteless.

Dowlands lute songs are very sensible compositions. I wonder what 
interpretations you have in mind. You know - the local mandolin orchestra 
(the one which is interpreting the neapolitane by Gorzanis - and a fantasia 
by Dowland) wants to play lute songs by Dowland. I've told them it would be 
tasteless but following your argumentation you would even agree to versions 
on hawai guitar. Sorry - that's over my head.

Best wishes
Thomas 



>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/

RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Stuart LeBlanc]

True, though not so radical as Beethoven coming on the heels of Haydn and
Mozart.  CPE had no comparable stylistic constraints from which to transcend.


-Original Message-
From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:42 AM
To: Stuart LeBlanc
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine


Carl Phillip Emmanuel Bach did similar things some 30-40 years earlier.
He would begin an F-major sonata with a phrase in c-minor, or avoid
establishing a key at all for the first 14 bars.
RT

>
> One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition.  In
> music,
> Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism.
> For example,
> his first symphony (in C Major) begins with a C dominant seventh chord
> resolving
> to an F major chord.  Those who traditionally understood a symphony in
> C major
> as beginning with a harmonic progression defining the key of C major
> apparently
> took strong exception to this.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:21 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>
>
>> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies
>> >Renaissance and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, >200 easily falls into that
> category.
> It's not an insult, just a >fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400
> or more
> years >old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger >than
> the
> English Renaissance "modern".
>
>> Regards,
>
>  I see your point, BTW right now I'm listening to some "
> relatively
> modern", Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Weiss, not to mention a little
> modern
> guitar music by Sor.
>> Craig
>
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> ----- Original Message -
> From: "Craig Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lutelist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:57 AM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of
> Perrine
>
>
>> Michael wrote:
>>>
>>>   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
>>> comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
> around,
>>> for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past
>>> and
>>> present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage
>>> of
> time
>>> is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using
>>> in you
>>> coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>>
>> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance
>> and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that
> category.
> It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or
> more
> years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
> English Renaissance "modern".
>>
>> Regards,
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
>> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
>> Signup at www.doteasy.com
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

"Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> stave. Do you? And it's virtually impossible to notate baroque lute music on 
> a single stave.

Emil Vogl did it in his edition of Bohemian lute music (Logy et al)


Viele Grüße

Mathias
--

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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 01:05 PM 7/6/2005, Thomas Schall wrote:
>for an overview of the early romantic guitar visit
>http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/


I like Len and his site, but in reading there be certain to recognize where 
his opinion is opinion and not necessarily fact: for example, I think his 
effort to formalize the term "parlor guitar" and contrast it against "early 
romantic guitar" is a bit silly, and perhaps a little derogatory towards 
American guitars in a pre-Segovia paradigm.

Best,
Eugene 



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Markus Lutz]

Thomas Schall schrieb:

> And yes - Markus - I think there is lute music. It has a very special
>
>repertoire. Of course there are examples like the 
>Vivaldi/Krebs/Marino/Rust/Falckenhagen etc.etc. concertoes be they notated 
>like they want to be.This is a genre of it's own (divided in sub-categories). 
>The music for lute alone is something different. I'm sure most players doing 
>both, ensemble and solo work, will agree that even the playing will be 
>different. But this would be a topic of it's own: solo lute vs. lute in an 
>ensemble. Don't you think so?
>
>  
>

For sure there is "lute music". But it isn´t or never has been a 
repertoire only to be played on the lute.
Losy has been played on the lute. Weiss on the mandora and on key 
instruments, French lute music on the harpsichord etc.
The so called lute-songs of Dowland are intabulations of  4 voices (or 
vice versa?).
Lute music always had been solo and ensemble.
What I´m not accepting is to use it in an exclusive way.

Best
Markus



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 12:23 PM 7/6/2005, you wrote:
>In fact older than 6 course/string guitars:  we musn't forget that the 
>later 5 course guitar in France in the 2nd half of the 18thC used the 
>octave transposing treble clef (ie as modern guitar music).


Good point, Martyn.  Thus my use of the adverb "roughly."

Eugene 



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 11:51 AM 7/6/2005, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
>Staff notation being new...


This, of course, should have read "...new to guitar..."  Sorry for my 
ambiguity.

Eugene 



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

for an overview of the early romantic guitar visit
http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/

Thomas Schall

Am Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 18:44 schrieben Sie:
> At 06:01 AM 7/6/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
> >Those early 6 course guitars were also double (and sometimes triple-)
> >strung. I don't know when the single strung guitar became common.  But
> >that shouldn't be too difficult to determine. There's a fine new book out
> >on the early history of the C.F.Martin firm. By a professor at the U. of
> >North Carolina.
>
> 6-course guitars were rather unique to Spain.  Elsewhere the progression
> seems to have been to leave 5-course guitars single strung just before it
> became commonplace to build guitars to carry six single strings.  The
> earliest 6-string guitar of which I'm aware to carry a readily datable
> label is a 1785 Fabricatore in the collection of James Westbrook.  Dr.
> Thomas Heck is serving as consultant to sell a G. Vinaccia for which he has
> transcribed the label's date as 1779, but I am a little skeptical of the
> transcription.  Interesting to note that Fabricatore and the Vinaccia
> family were also at the fore of the development of the Neapolitan-type
> mandolin (i.e., that which modern players would recognize as a
> mandolin).  Dr. Heck wrote a decent article on the topic of early 6-string
> guitars that is slightly outdated, but still a worthy read:
> .
>
> I am a great fan of C.F. Martin's pre-Civil War guitars and late 19th-early
> 20th c. Neapolitan-type mandolins.  I have owned a few Martin instruments
> ranging up to as modern as 1929 and handled instruments spanning the whole
> range of the shop's production.  There have been a great many texts devoted
> to the shop's history and product.  C.F. Martin arrived in New York and
> began producing guitars in 1833.  Before, he worked in the Staufer/Stauffer
> shop in Vienna.  While Staufer was close to the fore of 6-string guitars as
> a new concept, Martin didn't enter the scene until the concept was a
> couple-few decades old.
>
> Best,
> Eugene
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

Am Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 13:53 schrieben Sie:

> Arthur wrote: 

> Most transcriptions are usually consulted not by
> keyboard players (who already have sufficient repertory
> for their instruments), but by lutenists.
>
> Both Paul O'Dette and Christopher Wilson have told me
> that when they are working up a piece for a recital or
> CD, they consult a transcription, and if none is
> available, they will make one themselves.  So even our
> virtuoso players find tablature wanting when there is a
> need to understand the music. That they know the most
> sothoroughly tells in their playuing, I believe.
>
I'm sure both Christopher Wilson and Paul O'Dette won't need a transcription 
for their playing - it helps to analyze the music and to detect structures. 
Again I am convinced it's easier done with a grand staff or other pitch 
related notation but also well possible with tab. 
It's always helpfull to sing one part and play the rest. Then take a different 
part and play the rest. To detect these parts a notation in grand staff is 
helpfull because someone already did the work to find the melodies. 

But - if you work on music like for instance Gianoncelli you'll get 
difficulties because he toyed cleverly with the imagination of the 
player/listener and also with special sound effects of the lute. Especially 
lute music of the baroque often has ommissions which are filled by the 
imagination of the listener. In the renaissance I assume often the 
arrangements are somehow idealistic and urge the performer to construct his 
own playing version. Many settings of vocal works would be unplayable 
otherwise.

And yes - Markus - I think there is lute music. It has a very special 
repertoire. Of course there are examples like the 
Vivaldi/Krebs/Marino/Rust/Falckenhagen etc.etc. concertoes be they notated 
like they want to be.This is a genre of it's own (divided in sub-categories). 
The music for lute alone is something different. I'm sure most players doing 
both, ensemble and solo work, will agree that even the playing will be 
different. But this would be a topic of it's own: solo lute vs. lute in an 
ensemble. Don't you think so?


-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 06:01 AM 7/6/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>Those early 6 course guitars were also double (and sometimes triple-) 
>strung. I don't know when the single strung guitar became common.  But 
>that shouldn't be too difficult to determine. There's a fine new book out 
>on the early history of the C.F.Martin firm. By a professor at the U. of 
>North Carolina.


6-course guitars were rather unique to Spain.  Elsewhere the progression 
seems to have been to leave 5-course guitars single strung just before it 
became commonplace to build guitars to carry six single strings.  The 
earliest 6-string guitar of which I'm aware to carry a readily datable 
label is a 1785 Fabricatore in the collection of James Westbrook.  Dr. 
Thomas Heck is serving as consultant to sell a G. Vinaccia for which he has 
transcribed the label's date as 1779, but I am a little skeptical of the 
transcription.  Interesting to note that Fabricatore and the Vinaccia 
family were also at the fore of the development of the Neapolitan-type 
mandolin (i.e., that which modern players would recognize as a 
mandolin).  Dr. Heck wrote a decent article on the topic of early 6-string 
guitars that is slightly outdated, but still a worthy read:
.

I am a great fan of C.F. Martin's pre-Civil War guitars and late 19th-early 
20th c. Neapolitan-type mandolins.  I have owned a few Martin instruments 
ranging up to as modern as 1929 and handled instruments spanning the whole 
range of the shop's production.  There have been a great many texts devoted 
to the shop's history and product.  C.F. Martin arrived in New York and 
began producing guitars in 1833.  Before, he worked in the Staufer/Stauffer 
shop in Vienna.  While Staufer was close to the fore of 6-string guitars as 
a new concept, Martin didn't enter the scene until the concept was a 
couple-few decades old.

Best,
Eugene 



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

Yes - the visual support is better in pitch/standard notation but in many 
cases I can "sing" (if I only could :-)) the melody from tab. 
But - it's easier from standard notation ...

Best wishes
Thomas 

Am Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 12:18 schrieben Sie:
>   You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in >tablature,
>   whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves >nothing as for
>  harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?
>
> Yours truly has equal ear for tabulature (baroque) and notation. I also
> know people who can sing from tab. And non-lutenists who could play
> directly from it.
> RT
>
> > In principle, I don't see much difference between notation or tab for
> > seeing harmony or counterpoint. It is just a question of what you are
> > used to. One represents a tone by a note on a staff and the other by
> > a cipher, but they are both representations. Yes, I've used notation
> > longer so it is a bit easier for me to discern voice movement and
> > harmony in notation, but there is not so much difference in tracking
> > a voice through tab than in notation. It is almost as easy to see the
> > movement. You have to use your ear in either case. Notation has the
> > disadvantage that it is not neutral. That is, you will probably be
> > influenced by how the editor chooses to voice something. If it is
> > Arthur Ness, I know he's thought about it deeply and understands the
> > music, still there might be the odd spot where I might have a
> > different interpretation. Listening for the voice leading becomes
> > part of the fun. I'm sure someone who grew up playing tab from day
> > one, would have no trouble following it. The fact that there are
> > examples of harmonic progressions and voice leading in old
> > manuscripts in tab shows that at least some players learned it in tab.
> > cheers,
> > --
> > Ed Durbrow
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Martyn Hodgson]

 
In fact older than 6 course/string guitars:  we musn't forget that the later 5 
course guitar in France in the 2nd half of the 18thC used the octave 
transposing treble clef (ie as modern guitar music). For example,  I have 
before me the following 5 course books which were all published in Paris and 
show this feature: Merchi 1761, Bailleux 1773, Merchi 1777, Baillon 1781. 
Presumably this established the pattern to be followed by most later guitar 
music.
 
Interestingly, the Bailleux of 1773 gives parallel tablature (french) AND staff 
notation showing  transitional usage; the earlier 1761 Merchi is all in staff 
notation - perhaps reflecting that tablature was long out of use in his native 
Italy..
 
Martyn Hodgson

"Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 06:31 PM 7/5/2005, Michael Thames wrote:
> Dear Arthur, the six string guitar, which has been the entire
>focus of this discussion was invented in the decade of 1780, it adopted
>already existing musical notation, nothing new was invented, with the
>exception of the guitar itself.
> In the lifespan of the guitar, the notation is OLD. Saying that modern
>guitar notation is a recent development is wrong. The only notation the six
>string has ever known is treble clef...


Sorry Michael,

While I appreciate your efforts to defend modern guitars as legitimate 
instruments for the making of music, this assertion isn't quite right. The 
use of staff notation for guitars is roughly as old as guitars in six 
strings, but the music for earlier incarnations of guitar, as you know, was 
notated in tablature. Staff notation being new, there was a fair amount of 
experimentation before the use of a single staff in octave treble clef 
became the norm. Early on, Sor advocated two staves; his famous op. 7 
fantasy was even originally published on two staves in bass and alto clef.

Best,
Eugene 



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 06:37 PM 7/5/2005, Thomas Schall wrote:
>the c-minor prelude is in staff notation NOT in tablature!
>Vivaldi's lute conceros are written in staff notation, too. It was common to
>write the lute part in staff notation for that kind of music. You'll find it
>also in Fasch and others. I don't know about Byrd though ...
>I could send some facsimiles if you want me to


Furthermore, the Vivaldi works were notated on a single treble clef an 
octave above that which seems logical for most things to have carried the 
moniker of "leuto" in Vivaldi's time and place.  This has prompted some (I 
believe in error) to assume all the Vivaldi lute works were actually 
conceived for mandolino.

Eugene




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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 06:31 PM 7/5/2005, Michael Thames wrote:
> Dear Arthur,  the six string guitar,  which has been the entire
>focus of this discussion was invented in the decade of 1780, it adopted
>already existing musical notation, nothing new was invented, with the
>exception of the guitar itself.
>In the lifespan of the guitar, the notation is OLD. Saying that modern
>guitar notation is a recent development is wrong.  The only notation the six
>string has ever known is treble clef...


Sorry Michael,

While I appreciate your efforts to defend modern guitars as legitimate 
instruments for the making of music, this assertion isn't quite right.  The 
use of staff notation for guitars is roughly as old as guitars in six 
strings, but the music for earlier incarnations of guitar, as you know, was 
notated in tablature.  Staff notation being new, there was a fair amount of 
experimentation before the use of a single staff in octave treble clef 
became the norm.  Early on, Sor advocated two staves; his famous op. 7 
fantasy was even originally published on two staves in bass and alto clef.

Best,
Eugene 



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

"Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> stave. Do you? And it's virtually impossible to notate baroque lute music on 
> a single stave.

Emil Vogl did it in his edition of Bohemian lute music (Logy et al)


Viele Grüße

Mathias
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RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Stuart LeBlanc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity

Michael, I encourage you to educate yourself.  And if the dollops of insult you 
add to your remarks are intended for comic amusement, you might start working 
on some new material.

-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:04 PM
To: Lutelist; Stuart LeBlanc
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine

   Earth to Stuart.earth to Stuart... are you there Stuart...hello!
hello!  I think we lost him sir
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com


- Original Message -
From: "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


>
> Right, and when the same historians talk about things "classical" they are
> talking about things roughly 2500 years old.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:58 PM
> To: Lutelist
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>
>
> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's
> not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years
> old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English
> Renaissance "modern".
>
>
> Michael wrote:
> >
> >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
> >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
> >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of time
> >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
> >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>



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RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Stuart LeBlanc]

Actually the "music of the future" came along with Wagner and Liszt, whose hero
was Beethoven.

This stuff can be learned in any freshman music history class...

-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:39 PM
To: Lutelist; Stuart LeBlanc
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine



>One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of >tradition.  In
music,
>Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of >modernism.

   Another definition of modernism something that came after, the
thing that came before.
 In which case Stuart, were all in a moving picture, and the name of the
feature presentation is Perpetual Motion.

  Seriously Stuart I think your confusing the word "modern" with "modernism"
two very different things.
  Your welcome to think of Beethoven as modern music,  I tend to think of
Henze as pre futuristic, future music that has yet to be actualized.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


>
> One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition.  In
music,
> Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism.  For
example,
> his first symphony (in C Major) begins with a C dominant seventh chord
resolving
> to an F major chord.  Those who traditionally understood a symphony in C
major
> as beginning with a harmonic progression defining the key of C major
apparently
> took strong exception to this.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:21 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>
>
> >At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies >Renaissance
and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, >200 easily falls into that category.
> It's not an insult, just a >fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or
more
> years >old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger >than the
> English Renaissance "modern".
>
> >Regards,
>
>  I see your point, BTW right now I'm listening to some "
relatively
> modern", Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Weiss, not to mention a little
modern
> guitar music by Sor.
> >Craig
>
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> - Original Message -
> From: "Craig Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lutelist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:57 AM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
of
> Perrine
>
>
> > Michael wrote:
> > >
> > >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> > >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
> around,
> > >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past
and
> > >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
> time
> > >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in
you
> > >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
> >
> > At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance
and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category.
> It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or
more
> years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
> English Renaissance "modern".
> >
> > Regards,
> > Craig
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
> > Signup at www.doteasy.com
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
>
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

"Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>>  You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in >tablature,
>>  whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves >nothing as for
>>  harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?

> ... but there is not so much difference in tracking 
> a voice through tab than in notation. It is almost as easy to see the 
> movement. You have to use your ear in either case. 

I strongly doubt this. Take e. g. Francesco da Milano's fab Spagna.
Stewart McCoy once suggested to me that da Milano intabulated a viol
version of Bassa Danza and then added his treble counterpoint. The
three-part accompaniment has the actual tenor line roaming though all
registers. You simply cannot recognize it unless you have a score at
hand (e. g. Ortiz) with the parts separated.


Best,

Mathias
--

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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

I think you just demonstrate your ignorance when you write things like this, 
Michael.  And snide, rude remarks just create a hostile environment, and weaken 
your argument, if you had one. You do not help your advocacy of guitar music 
with such an attitude. No one here is attempting to ridicule the guitar and 
guitar music, or even prove the superiority of lute music over guitar music.  
Unlike the frequent complaint of playing Bach on a concert grand piano, I have 
never even heard purists complain about playing lute music on guitar. And the 
complaint is a valid one, although I do not subscr*be to it.

Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, J.S.Bach, Vivaldi, three 
anonymous composers from the 18th-century (formerly in Bob Spencer's 
collection) all wrote lute music in pitch notation using two staves.  I know of 
four or five large manuscripts in Darmstadt, Stockholm,St. Petersburg, Wroclaw, 
containing lute music in pitch notation.  And many others are doubtlessly 
waiting to be disclosed when James Tyler finishes his work.

Do you know of any historical lute music written in pitch notation on a single 
staff?  Except for guitar editions,I don't even know any modern editions of 
lute music on a single stave. Do you? And it's virtually impossible to notate 
baroque lute music on a single stave.

Universally lute music in pitch notation uses the grand staff, Even many 
guitarists today advocate guitar music on two staves, and a recent edition (ca. 
2002) of arrangements of Bach for solo guitar is notated for ease in reading on 
two staves.  Maybe you'd better start practicing your bass clef, before it's 
too late.  Actually guitar notation on a single stave is a fairly recent 
phenomenon, dating from the late 18th-/early 19th century.

AJN.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Michael Thames 
  To: Mathias R=F6sel ; Arthur Ness 
  Cc: lute list 
  Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 1:34 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  > For centuries lute music has been notated on two staves

  Yes, and I chart daytime stars, in my spare time.
  Michael Thames
  www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
  - Original Message -
  From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: "Mathias R=F6sel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Cc: "lute list" 
  Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 10:47 AM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
  Perrine


  > Dear Mathias,
  >
  > I had to join that group in order to see Doug Towne's work.  But I cannot
  open the files.  Do I have to buy Fronimo to do that?  How much does it
  cost?  Wouldn't it be more convenient to have them in *.PDF format, like
  wayne does?
  >
  > I am unaware of any discussions about publishing lute music in guitar
  notation rather than the standard lute notation on the grand staff.  NB the
  proper term is NOT "keyboard." That's an obsession from the guitar world.
  (Perhaps disease is an exaggeration.)  For centuries lute music has been
  notated on two staves.
  >
  > I find Matanya's article in the current issue of The Lute to be rather
  shallow.  He does not discuss all of the relevant issues, and misses some
  important milestones in the publication of lute music.  Some of the most
  significant editions are left unmentioned in his article, including the
  recent A-R Editions, CNRS,  Die Tabulatur, Ut Orpheus (Italy), etc.
  >
  > He does not identify that Russian piece, which is Dowland's Farewell
  Fantasia. Apparently he fears it might pale in comparison with Mrs.
  Poulton's work, and practically everyone else who ever transcribed it.   And
  why is there no mention of lute music in pitch notation done by Julio da
  Modena, Byrd, Couperin, Chambonieres, Vivaldi, J. S. Bach, et al.?
  >
  > To picture Gombosi's commentary of the Schrade system is a bald attempt to
  sensationalize his point ofview. Very few editors of lute music followed
  Schrade's example, including his own pupils. And Schrade didn't even respond
  to Gombosi's review.  One Polish edition used the Schrade method, and five
  years later the editors withdrew the edition and replaced it with one of the
  same music done up in conventional lute notation on the grand staff.  Since
  the Gombosi review appeared (1930s) hundreds of edition of lute music have
  appeared, and surely not more than four or five use the Schrade method,
  including one horrendous edition of the Narvaez book for guitar (the editor
  obviously knew nothing about early music).
  >
  > ajn
  > ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: "Mathias R=F6sel"
  >   Cc: lute list
  >   Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 1:45 PM
  >   Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
  Book of Perrine
  >
  >
  >   

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

Likewise the Polymnia Galliard by Galilei (orchestrated byRespighi).  In the 
second strainthe melody in in an inner voice. Respighi and O'Dette found it and 
emphasize it.  But most of us would play the upper line, which is quite 
melodeous.  Players some time miss it,unless they consult a score.
  - Original Message - 
  From: "Mathias R=F6sel" 
  To: Lutelist 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 7:39 AM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
  >>  You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in >tablature,
  >>  whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves >nothing as for
  >>  harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?

  > ... but there is not so much difference in tracking 
  > a voice through tab than in notation. It is almost as easy to see the 
  > movement. You have to use your ear in either case. 

  I strongly doubt this. Take e. g. Francesco da Milano's fab Spagna.
  Stewart McCoy once suggested to me that da Milano intabulated a viol
  version of Bassa Danza and then added his treble counterpoint. The
  three-part accompaniment has the actual tenor line roaming though all
  registers. You simply cannot recognize it unless you have a score at
  hand (e. g. Ortiz) with the parts separated.


  Best,

  Mathias



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  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

Dear Matthias,

This will be my last comment. Sorry tohave dominatedthe 
discussion. I amoff toMaine where one of my former 
students in composer in residence at a music festival. I 
wantto hear his latest orchestral work. He isan 
enthusatist for early music, too, and often uses 
snippets in his works.

Mrs. Poulton made a special effort to transcribe what is 
playable on lute.  The word keyboard appears nowhere in 
her edition.  She simply says the tablature is 
transcribed into staff notation.

Lutenists who play from pitch notation find two staves 
quite convenient.  There are still lutenists who prefer 
staff notation to tablature, and in the past modern 
lutenists have often played from staff notation, not 
tablature.  Bream said he used puitch notation, and all 
of the works that Gerwig recorded were available in 
pitch notation. I think Suzanne Bloch also transcribed 
works into pitch notation before she played them.

Marimbas, harps and even Bach chorales are written on 
two staves. usually treble and bass, yet they are not 
called keyboard, nor are they intended for piano. 
Similarly the standard notation for lute is treble and 
bass clef (sometimes called grand staff, or a bi-staff). 
It has been that way for centuries.

Michael Thames is doing Mrs. Poulton's memory a 
disservice by refering to her edition as being 
"keyboard."  This is the lingo of ill-informed 
guitarists, and surely we should avoid following their 
lead.  And just a few years ago some Bach arrangements 
for guitar were published on two staves.  So even 
guitarists may soon have to learn the bass clef, the way 
many lutenists do. Some guitarists are dead set against 
that octave sounding guitar notation, but are powerless 
to change it.

Most transcriptions are usually consulted not by 
keyboard players (who already have sufficient repertory 
for their instruments), but by lutenists.

Both Paul O'Dette and Christopher Wilson have told me 
that when they are working up a piece for a recital or 
CD, they consult a transcription, and if none is 
available, they will make one themselves.  So even our 
virtuoso players find tablature wanting when there is a 
need to understand the music. That they know the most 
sothoroughly tells in their playuing, I believe.

Weiss used French, not German,  tablature, Michael.

AJN.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mathias Rösel"
To: Lutelist
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a 
worldwide first- the Book of Perrine


"Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>   I've heard this point of view before. 
> However counterpoint and
> harmony, exist only in time and space, not on paper, 
> as tablature proves
> very well.

in staff notation, this

-|---|--
-|-O-|--
-|---|--
-|-O-|--
-|---|-- is a fifth, regardless which clef or key, 
right?

That is easy to see, you can just count how many steps 
it is from the
lower to the upper note. It exists on paper.

But how do you know that this

--a--
-
--d--
-
-
- is a fifth, too? (BTW, it isn't on the baroque 
lute).

And how do you know that this

-
--f--
-
--h--
-
- sounds just the same (even on the baroque lute)?

You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in 
tablature,
whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves 
nothing as for
harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?

>   I was referring to the "old world thinking" as 
> this obsolete need, to
> establish the lute and lutenists as superior to the 
> guitar, and verse vicea.

there still is that nasty old gap, indeed. But it is an 
academic one
IMO.

>  Diana Poulton did this with the " Complete works 
> of Dowland".
> Wouldn't it have been great, if there were guitar 
> notation and fingerings,
> instead of keyboard, which nobody plays.

yes. Meanwhile, editions with those required features 
have been
published. In Mrs Poultons days, there were many more 
people than today
whose education would entail keyboard playing as a usual 
and integral
part. On the other hand, only very few guitarists were 
intested in
Dowland's technically demanding pieces, I suppose. Her 
decision to
publish the music in keyboard transcription with regard 
to the then
existing musical world looks just sensible to me.

>> and the even more accomplished do also read German 
>>  >tab, my friend.

> Each person is given 24 hours per day, how they choose 
> to torture
> themselves is up to them. The only German tab I suffer 
> through is Weiss.

I for one enjoy it. (Weiss's tab isn't German, as you 
will know.)

Best wishes,

Mathias
--

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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

"Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>>  You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in >tablature,
>>  whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves >nothing as for
>>  harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?

> ... but there is not so much difference in tracking 
> a voice through tab than in notation. It is almost as easy to see the 
> movement. You have to use your ear in either case. 

I strongly doubt this. Take e. g. Francesco da Milano's fab Spagna.
Stewart McCoy once suggested to me that da Milano intabulated a viol
version of Bassa Danza and then added his treble counterpoint. The
three-part accompaniment has the actual tenor line roaming though all
registers. You simply cannot recognize it unless you have a score at
hand (e. g. Ortiz) with the parts separated.


Best,

Mathias



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Roman Turovsky]

  You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in >tablature,
  whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves >nothing as for
 harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?

Yours truly has equal ear for tabulature (baroque) and notation. I also 
know people who can sing from tab. And non-lutenists who could play 
directly from it.
RT
>
> In principle, I don't see much difference between notation or tab for
> seeing harmony or counterpoint. It is just a question of what you are
> used to. One represents a tone by a note on a staff and the other by
> a cipher, but they are both representations. Yes, I've used notation
> longer so it is a bit easier for me to discern voice movement and
> harmony in notation, but there is not so much difference in tracking
> a voice through tab than in notation. It is almost as easy to see the
> movement. You have to use your ear in either case. Notation has the
> disadvantage that it is not neutral. That is, you will probably be
> influenced by how the editor chooses to voice something. If it is
> Arthur Ness, I know he's thought about it deeply and understands the
> music, still there might be the odd spot where I might have a
> different interpretation. Listening for the voice leading becomes
> part of the fun. I'm sure someone who grew up playing tab from day
> one, would have no trouble following it. The fact that there are
> examples of harmonic progressions and voice leading in old
> manuscripts in tab shows that at least some players learned it in tab.
> cheers,
> -- 
> Ed Durbrow



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

Dear Stuart,

Yes,thank you for mentioning it. As late as 1814.  Sor uses bass and alto 
clefs. Others advocated it too for solo music.  And a single staff when the 
guitar was used as an accompanying instrument. It is really too bad that 
guitarists dropped the grand staff notation.  Many guitarists agree that single 
staff notation is very unsatisfactory.  It takes a great deal of ingenuity to 
write four-part polyphony on the guitar staff.  

Those early 6 course guitars were also double (and sometimes triple-) strung. I 
don't know when the single strung guitar became common.  But that shouldn't be 
too difficult to determine. There's a fine new book out on the early history of 
the C.F.Martin firm. By a professor at the U. of North Carolina.

There is also ample evidence for the use of guitar and lute in the continuo 
groups of baroque ensembles.  Some works even have the guitar part notated in 
alfabeto tablature.  Robert Strizich wrote a survey of the use of guitar as 
continuo  instrument.  It is in the Italian guitar journal _Il_Fronimo._  And 
should be translated and published in one of our lute journals.  I don't know 
whether to laugh or cry when Thane declareas that there are niot guitars 
beforethe late 18th century. It'a in the same vein of comment as my colleague 
who called all music before Bach "pre-music music." I guess Thane would have 
uise call those instruments "pre-guitar guitars."  I guess he'd also call 
Bach's lute music "non-music music."

Thanks for joining the discussion.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Stuart LeBlanc 
  To: Lutelist 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:06 PM
  Subject: RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine



  Sor advocated grand staff for guitar music.

  -Original Message-
  From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:51 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
  Book of Perrine


  >BTW: It's absolute correct to tell the way guitar music is >notated today a
  >relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance >until the late
  >baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate >the music for the
  >guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar >technique causes
  this
  >change in notation. The tab system has many advantages >when assuming
  >rasguado-playing ...

  >Best wishes
  >Thomas

 Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
  comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
  for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
  present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of time
  is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
  coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!

  Michael Thames
  www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
  - Original Message -
  From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: "Lutelist" 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:15 AM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
  Perrine


  > Hi
  >
  > BTW: It's absolut correct to tell the way guitar music is notated today a
  > relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance until the late
  > baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate the music for the
  > guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar technique causes
  this
  > change in notation. The tab system has many advantages when assuming
  > rasguado-playing ...
  >
  > Best wishes
  > Thomas
  >
  > --
  > Thomas Schall
  > Niederhofheimer Weg 3
  > D-65843 Sulzbach
  > 06196/74519
  > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  >
  > ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
  > Wiesentalstrasse 41
  > CH-8355 Aadorf
  >
  > http://www.lautenist.de
  > http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
  > http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
  > http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/
  >
  >
  >
  > To get on or off this list see list information at
  > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >



--

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Roman Turovsky]

Carl Phillip Emmanuel Bach did similar things some 30-40 years earlier. 
He would begin an F-major sonata with a phrase in c-minor, or avoid 
establishing a key at all for the first 14 bars.
RT

>
> One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition.  In 
> music,
> Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism.  
> For example,
> his first symphony (in C Major) begins with a C dominant seventh chord 
> resolving
> to an F major chord.  Those who traditionally understood a symphony in 
> C major
> as beginning with a harmonic progression defining the key of C major 
> apparently
> took strong exception to this.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:21 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>
>
>> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies 
>> >Renaissance and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, >200 easily falls into that 
> category.
> It's not an insult, just a >fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 
> or more
> years >old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger >than 
> the
> English Renaissance "modern".
>
>> Regards,
>
>  I see your point, BTW right now I'm listening to some " 
> relatively
> modern", Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Weiss, not to mention a little 
> modern
> guitar music by Sor.
>> Craig
>
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> ----- Original Message -
> From: "Craig Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lutelist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:57 AM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the 
> Book of
> Perrine
>
>
>> Michael wrote:
>>>
>>>   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
>>> comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
> around,
>>> for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past 
>>> and
>>> present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage 
>>> of
> time
>>> is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using 
>>> in you
>>> coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>>
>> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance 
>> and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that 
> category.
> It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or 
> more
> years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
> English Renaissance "modern".
>>
>> Regards,
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
>> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
>> Signup at www.doteasy.com
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Ed Durbrow]

>"Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>>>  You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in >tablature,
>>>  whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves >nothing as for
>  >> harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?

In principle, I don't see much difference between notation or tab for 
seeing harmony or counterpoint. It is just a question of what you are 
used to. One represents a tone by a note on a staff and the other by 
a cipher, but they are both representations. Yes, I've used notation 
longer so it is a bit easier for me to discern voice movement and 
harmony in notation, but there is not so much difference in tracking 
a voice through tab than in notation. It is almost as easy to see the 
movement. You have to use your ear in either case. Notation has the 
disadvantage that it is not neutral. That is, you will probably be 
influenced by how the editor chooses to voice something. If it is 
Arthur Ness, I know he's thought about it deeply and understands the 
music, still there might be the odd spot where I might have a 
different interpretation. Listening for the voice leading becomes 
part of the fun. I'm sure someone who grew up playing tab from day 
one, would have no trouble following it. The fact that there are 
examples of harmonic progressions and voice leading in old 
manuscripts in tab shows that at least some players learned it in tab.
cheers,
-- 
Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Edward Martin]

In the case of BWV 1025, the style of the tablature is definitely that of 
SLW.  The movements, etc are typical of his late works.  The JSB version 
did some changes & transpositions, etc.  1025 was previously listed as a 
spurious work of JSB [prior to recent discovery of the concordance with 
Weiss], because it is not typical of JSB's work.  Stylistically one can 
conclude that JSB borrowed from Weiss.

One of the most regarded books on the works of Bach is:  Johann Sebastian 
Bach, The Lerned Musician by Christoff Wolff.  In it, he sites numerous 
examples of Bach "improving" on other's works.  He sites examples of Bach 
adding new parts to works of Pergulesi, Caldara, etc.  Even JSB's son, CPE 
Bach, wrote of his fathers predilection to do this:

He [CPE Bach] states, "He accomplished trios on more than one occasion on 
the spur of the moment, and being in good humor and knowing that the 
composer would not take it amiss, and on the basis of a sparsely figured 
continuo part just set before him, converted them into complete quartets, 
astounding the composer of the trios".

  Then Wolff goes on to add, "The trio for violin and harpsichord in A 
major, BWV 1025, from around 1740, is a good example.  Here JSBach expands 
on a lute suite by Sylvius Leopold Weiss of the Dresden Court capelle by 
adding a contrapuntal line to the original lute part that alternates 
between violin and the right hand of the keyboard."

Admittedly, it is possible that Weiss copied Bach, but very unlikely.

ed



  At 10:56 PM 7/5/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote:
> >And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to >which Bach 
> apparently (the case is still not closed) >transcribed and added a violin 
> part. It is always possible >that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch 
> notation (on >grand staff), but if not Bach made the 
> transcription.  The >question in my mind is whether Weiss also 
> composedthe >violin part, andthat in Dresden we have the lute part for 
> a >sonata for violin and lute.
>
>   Arthur, this is a very nice dream, and I'd love to think it's true, but 
> it's just speculation at this point.
>Please forgive my ignorance, but why is this considered Weiss's 
> original piece, and not Weiss's arrangement of one of Bach's suites?
>
>Michael Thames
>www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
>   - Original Message -----
>   From: Arthur Ness
>   To: Arthur Ness ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist
>   Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:01 PM
>   Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the 
> Book of Perrine
>
>
>   It is in pitchnotationonthegrand staff.  No original tablature survives.
> - Original Message -----
> From: Arthur Ness
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the 
> Book of Perrine
>
>
> And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach 
> apparently (the case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin 
> part. It is always possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch 
> notation (on grand staff), but if not Bach made the transription.  The 
> question in my mind is whether Weiss also composedthe violin part, 
> andthat in Dresden we have the lute part for a sonata for violin and lute.
> 
> The c-minor (originally d-minor???),BWV 999, comes down in just one 
> source, a manuscript copied by J.P. Kellner, an <>organist. The 
> Kellner who was active in lute and gutar music was another person, David K.
>   - Original Message -
>   From: Thomas Schall
>   To: Michael Thames ; Lutelist
>   Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:13 PM
>   Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- 
> the Book of Perrine
>
>
>   I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the 
> collection
>   Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?
>
>   The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are 
> certainly lute
>   pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the
>   g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be 
> played on
>   the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. 
> Falckenhagen
>   just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher).
>   The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting 
> and highly
>   recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are 
> available
>   from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to >which Bach apparently 
>(the case is still not closed) >transcribed and added a violin part. It is 
>always possible >that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on 
>>grand staff), but if not Bach made the transcription.  The >question in my 
>mind is whether Weiss also composedthe >violin part, andthat in Dresden we 
>have the lute part for a >sonata for violin and lute.

  Arthur, this is a very nice dream, and I'd love to think it's true, but it's 
just speculation at this point.  
   Please forgive my ignorance, but why is this considered Weiss's original 
piece, and not Weiss's arrangement of one of Bach's suites?

Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
  - Original Message - 
  From: Arthur Ness 
  To: Arthur Ness ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:01 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  It is in pitchnotationonthegrand staff.  No original tablature survives.
- Original Message - 
From: Arthur Ness 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:52 PM
    Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book 
of Perrine


And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently 
(the case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is 
always possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand 
staff), but if not Bach made the transription.  The question in my mind is 
whether Weiss also composedthe violin part, andthat in Dresden we have the lute 
part for a sonata for violin and lute.

The c-minor (originally d-minor???),BWV 999, comes down in just one source, 
a manuscript copied by J.P. Kellner, an <>organist. The Kellner who was 
active in lute and gutar music was another person, David K.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Schall 
  To: Michael Thames ; Lutelist 
      Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:13 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book 
of Perrine


  I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the 
collection 
  Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?

  The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly 
lute 
  pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the 
  g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played 
on 
  the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen 
  just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher). 
  The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and 
highly 
  recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are 
available 
  from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan 
  Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th 
  course which I don't have).

  Best wishes
  Thomas

  Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie:
  > >Hi Michael,
  > >
  > >please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music 
in
  > >tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute 
version
  > >(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard 
notation
  >
  >   Hi Thomas,  Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
  > Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by
  > Bach.  I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the
  > original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
  > tablature.  As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go 
there,
  > as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
  > Michael Thames
  > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
  > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  > To: "Lutelist" 
  > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
  > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the 
Book
  > of Perrine
  >
  > > Hi Michael,
  > >
  > > please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music 
in
  > > tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute 
version
  > > (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard
  > > notation.
  > >
  > > The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by
  > > Falckenhagen
   

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of >tradition.  In
music,
>Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of >modernism.

   Another definition of modernism something that came after, the
thing that came before.
 In which case Stuart, were all in a moving picture, and the name of the
feature presentation is Perpetual Motion.

  Seriously Stuart I think your confusing the word "modern" with "modernism"
two very different things.
  Your welcome to think of Beethoven as modern music,  I tend to think of
Henze as pre futuristic, future music that has yet to be actualized.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


>
> One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition.  In
music,
> Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism.  For
example,
> his first symphony (in C Major) begins with a C dominant seventh chord
resolving
> to an F major chord.  Those who traditionally understood a symphony in C
major
> as beginning with a harmonic progression defining the key of C major
apparently
> took strong exception to this.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:21 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>
>
> >At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies >Renaissance
and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, >200 easily falls into that category.
> It's not an insult, just a >fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or
more
> years >old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger >than the
> English Renaissance "modern".
>
> >Regards,
>
>  I see your point, BTW right now I'm listening to some "
relatively
> modern", Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Weiss, not to mention a little
modern
> guitar music by Sor.
> >Craig
>
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> - Original Message -
> From: "Craig Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lutelist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:57 AM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
of
> Perrine
>
>
> > Michael wrote:
> > >
> > >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> > >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
> around,
> > >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past
and
> > >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
> time
> > >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in
you
> > >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
> >
> > At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance
and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category.
> It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or
more
> years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
> English Renaissance "modern".
> >
> > Regards,
> > Craig
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
> > Signup at www.doteasy.com
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
>
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>Arthur mentions Byrd's lute music below.  I always >assumed the pieces I
>have seen in lute tab were 16th Century intabulations >taken from some of
>Byrd's other music.  Has someone done an article on >Byrd's lute music that
>I can read?  I'd love to get a list of the pieces and which >manuscripts
>they are in.
>Nancy Carlin

 I always assumed they were keyboard arrangements by Byrd of lute
music.

Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Nancy Carlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> Arthur and any others who are tinterested:
>
> Arthur mentions Byrd's lute music below.  I always assumed the pieces I
> have seen in lute tab were 16th Century intabulations taken from some of
> Byrd's other music.  Has someone done an article on Byrd's lute music that
> I can read?  I'd love to get a list of the pieces and which manuscripts
> they are in.
> Nancy Carlin
>
>
>
> >There was lute music on two staves much earlier than the Denkmaeler der
> >Tonkunst.  And I do not know how influential that IMS conference report
> >was.  Byrd, Couperin, Bach, et al., for example, use two staves.  So lute
> >music in pitch notation on the grand staff has always been with us.  The
> >use of A tuning can be annoying to us familiar with the G tuning. But
> >German editors seemtofavorit.  Even some of those Die Tabulatur editions
> >use A tuning (another problem with Ophee's article; he doesn't discuss
> >tuning, or compare the transcriptions with the tablature).  By the way,
> >CNRS now issues a separate volume of tablature, as well as the volume of
> >tablature and parallel transcription. So no longer do you need to cut and
> >paste.
>
> Nancy Carlin Associates
> P.O. Box 6499
> Concord, CA 94524  USA
> phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
> web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com
>
> Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
> web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Nancy Carlin]

Arthur and any others who are tinterested:

Arthur mentions Byrd's lute music below.  I always assumed the pieces I 
have seen in lute tab were 16th Century intabulations taken from some of 
Byrd's other music.  Has someone done an article on Byrd's lute music that 
I can read?  I'd love to get a list of the pieces and which manuscripts 
they are in.
Nancy Carlin



>There was lute music on two staves much earlier than the Denkmaeler der 
>Tonkunst.  And I do not know how influential that IMS conference report 
>was.  Byrd, Couperin, Bach, et al., for example, use two staves.  So lute 
>music in pitch notation on the grand staff has always been with us.  The 
>use of A tuning can be annoying to us familiar with the G tuning. But 
>German editors seemtofavorit.  Even some of those Die Tabulatur editions 
>use A tuning (another problem with Ophee's article; he doesn't discuss 
>tuning, or compare the transcriptions with the tablature).  By the way, 
>CNRS now issues a separate volume of tablature, as well as the volume of 
>tablature and parallel transcription. So no longer do you need to cut and 
>paste.

Nancy Carlin Associates
P.O. Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524  USA
phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com

Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>Right, and when the same historians talk about things >"classical" they are
>talking about things roughly 2500 years old

   Earth to Stuart.earth to Stuart... are you there Stuart...hello!
hello!  I think we lost him sir
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


>
> Right, and when the same historians talk about things "classical" they are
> talking about things roughly 2500 years old.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:58 PM
> To: Lutelist
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>
>
> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category.
It's
> not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more
years
> old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English
> Renaissance "modern".
>
>
> Michael wrote:
> >
> >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
around,
> >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
> >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
time
> >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
> >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>Dear Arthur,
>I feel compelled to apologize to you for this village-idiot.
>RT

Trovosky, I know it's a little difficult for you to confirm or deny
your own existence's, let alone the existence of 18th century guitar music,
but stretch your intellect a little and really marvelous things might take
place, or maybe not.
 Concerning Bach you can talk to many different people and get many
different answers.  I for one, seriously doubt Bach wrote anything for the
lute.  Anything that was said to be by Bach is an arrangement, of his music
for the lute, by a keyboardist, or by a lutenist from keyboard to tablature.
I discussed this with Paul Odette at a master class, and he concluded
that Bach wrote nothing for the lute, I then said maybe the g-minor suite?
and he said maybe.

  The only music written for lute was written in tablature.
Otherwise, it's by definition not original lute music, but an arrangement.
As I said, one might find this on rare occasion, but certainly is not the
norm.
  So, please show me an original baroque lute piece that uses bass clef.
It can't be done because all major, players composing original lute music
used Tablature. You New York village idiot!



Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list"
; "Greg M. Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Arthur
Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> Dear Arthur,
> I feel compelled to apologize to you for this village-idiot.
> RT
>
>
>
> On Jul 5, 2005, at 3:35 PM, Michael Thames wrote:
>
> >> There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that >the grand
> > staff is used for keyboard music so that each >hand has a separate
> > staff.
> > Hence the Schrade <><(Kohlhase) >staff.  But with baroque lute music,
> > the
> > right frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two
> >  > not >mark a separation point between  >
> >Will someone please inform Aurther Ness that there is no "Bass
> > cleft
> > " in Baroque lute notation, unless you happen to be an old, world
> > keyboard,
> > music historian.  Haven't we progressed past the 1930's? mentality?
> > Michael Thames
> > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Greg M. Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Eugene C. Braig IV"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: "lute list" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> > Book of
> > Perrine
> >
> >
> >> There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand
> > staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate
> > staff.
> > Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff.  But with baroque lute music, the
> > right
> > hand will frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two staves do not
> > mark a
> > separation point between thehands.
> >>   - Original Message -
> >>   From: Greg M. Silverman
> >>   To: Eugene C. Braig IV
> >>   Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list
> >>   Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM
> >>   Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> > Book of Perrine
> >>
> >>
> >>   Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
> >>
> >>> At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> ...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for
> > keyboard
> >>>> (ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE
> >>>> ARE
> > LEFT
> >>>> OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to
> > have,
> >>>> when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for
> >>>> keyboard.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two
> > staves.
> >>>> That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation.
> > Harps,
> >>>> marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that
> > keyboard
> >>>> notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that when you play a
> >>>> keyboard
> > the
> >>>> hands somehow work together automatically.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Well, not ALL guitarists.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>   Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard.
> >>
> >>   Greg--
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Stuart LeBlanc]

One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition.  In music,
Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism.  For example,
his first symphony (in C Major) begins with a C dominant seventh chord resolving
to an F major chord.  Those who traditionally understood a symphony in C major
as beginning with a harmonic progression defining the key of C major apparently
took strong exception to this.

-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:21 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine


>At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies >Renaissance and
Medieval music calls a thing modern, >200 easily falls into that category.
It's not an insult, just a >fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more
years >old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger >than the
English Renaissance "modern".

>Regards,

 I see your point, BTW right now I'm listening to some " relatively
modern", Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Weiss, not to mention a little modern
guitar music by Sor.
>Craig

Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Craig Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> Michael wrote:
> >
> >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
around,
> >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
> >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
time
> >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
> >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>
> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and
Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category.
It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more
years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
English Renaissance "modern".
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
>
>
> ___
> $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
> Signup at www.doteasy.com
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Stuart LeBlanc]

Indeed, notions of HIP, period instruments, etc. have gained common currency.
For example, there are musicians performing music inspired by "classic rock" who
eschew the use of digital processing in their sound production.

-Original Message-
From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 3:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine


Dear Craig,

Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, so when special notation
for guitar was invented 200 years ago that is surely recent.  It's even recent
in the history of the guitar, which has been around since the 1400s. I don't
know where guitarists picked up the idea of a treble clef sounding an octave
lower.  Some Italian lute music uses a treble sounding an octave lower, as does
notation in the treble clef for cello (used mostly before ca. 1900).

Some persons consider "early music" to be music before Bach.  Some also call
that repertory "pre-music music."  But others would claim that music using,
say period instruments, belongs in the early music category. So I guess
performers are pushing the frontiers of early music forward when they play
Stravinsky on period instruments.  And recently there has been an interest
in"authentic" performance pratices in Brahms.  I recently heard the Fourth
Symphny played on period instruments of the kind in use in Brahms's day.  I
didn't realize it, but the ophicleid is a very agile instrument.  Lots of themes
and variations were written for it in the 19th cenury.  A trombonist in the
Boston SO has made it a specialty.

ajn
ajn
  - Original Message -
  From: Craig Allen
  To: Lutelist
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:57 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


  Michael wrote:
  >
  >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
  >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
  >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
  >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of time
  >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
  >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!

  At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and
Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's
not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years
old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English
Renaissance "modern".

  Regards,
  Craig



  ___
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  10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
  Signup at www.doteasy.com



  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Stuart LeBlanc]

Sor advocated grand staff for guitar music.

-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:51 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine


>BTW: It's absolute correct to tell the way guitar music is >notated today a
>relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance >until the late
>baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate >the music for the
>guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar >technique causes
this
>change in notation. The tab system has many advantages >when assuming
>rasguado-playing ...

>Best wishes
>Thomas

   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of time
is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!

Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> Hi
>
> BTW: It's absolut correct to tell the way guitar music is notated today a
> relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance until the late
> baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate the music for the
> guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar technique causes
this
> change in notation. The tab system has many advantages when assuming
> rasguado-playing ...
>
> Best wishes
> Thomas
>
> --
> Thomas Schall
> Niederhofheimer Weg 3
> D-65843 Sulzbach
> 06196/74519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
> Wiesentalstrasse 41
> CH-8355 Aadorf
>
> http://www.lautenist.de
> http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
> http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
> http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Stuart LeBlanc]

Right, and when the same historians talk about things "classical" they are
talking about things roughly 2500 years old.

-Original Message-
From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:58 PM
To: Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine


At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and
Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's
not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years
old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English
Renaissance "modern".


Michael wrote:
>
>   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
>comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
>for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
>present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of time
>is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
>coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Edward Martin]

Actually, Jaques Gallot did so.  I recall in an a minor prelude, he had 
small notes for the octaves, large ones for the fundamentals.  It was an 
effect that he desired.

ed



At 06:55 PM 7/5/2005 -0400, Arthur Ness wrote:
>I'venever seen any pieces wuiththe octave courses in small 
>notes.  Sometimes I've used oneor two notes when a 
>suspensionwasresolvedona lower stringand the direct resolution wouldbe due 
>to octave stringing.



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Roman Turovsky]

Dear Arthur,
I feel compelled to apologize to you for this village-idiot.
RT



On Jul 5, 2005, at 3:35 PM, Michael Thames wrote:

>> There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that >the grand
> staff is used for keyboard music so that each >hand has a separate 
> staff.
> Hence the Schrade <><(Kohlhase) >staff.  But with baroque lute music, 
> the
> right frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two 
>  not >mark a separation point between 
>Will someone please inform Aurther Ness that there is no "Bass 
> cleft
> " in Baroque lute notation, unless you happen to be an old, world 
> keyboard,
> music historian.  Haven't we progressed past the 1930's? mentality?
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> - Original Message -
> From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Greg M. Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Eugene C. Braig IV"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "lute list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:28 PM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the 
> Book of
> Perrine
>
>
>> There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand
> staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate 
> staff.
> Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff.  But with baroque lute music, the 
> right
> hand will frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two staves do not 
> mark a
> separation point between thehands.
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Greg M. Silverman
>>   To: Eugene C. Braig IV
>>   Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list
>>   Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM
>>   Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>>
>>
>>   Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
>>
>>> At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> ...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for
> keyboard
>>>> (ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE 
>>>> ARE
> LEFT
>>>> OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to
> have,
>>>> when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for
>>>> keyboard.
>>>>
>>>> Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two
> staves.
>>>> That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation.
> Harps,
>>>> marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that
> keyboard
>>>> notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that when you play a 
>>>> keyboard
> the
>>>> hands somehow work together automatically.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, not ALL guitarists.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>   Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard.
>>
>>   Greg--
>>
>> --
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Roman Turovsky]

I remember someone doing this with bar.guitar music.
RT


> I'venever seen any pieces wuiththe octave courses in small notes.=A0 
> Sometimes I've used oneor two notes when a suspensionwasresolvedona 
> lower stringand the direct resolution wouldbe due to octave stringing.
> =A0
> I'm notgoing t postthis tothe list.
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Greg M. Silverman
> To: Roman Turovsky
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Lutelist
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:11 PM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the 
> Book of Perrine
>
> Roman Turovsky wrote:
>
> >On Jul 5, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Greg M. Silverman wrote:
> >
> >=A0
> >
> >>Thomas Schall wrote:
> >>
> >>=A0=A0=A0
>  >>
> >>>Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able
> >>>to depict
> >>>lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double
>  >>>functions
> >>>of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to
>  >>>smoothly
> >>>change function which is not possible in keyboard music.
> >>>
> >>>Best wishes
> >>>Thomas
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
>  >>>
> >>Fascinating! So how are the seperate basses notated in tablature for
> >>designating the specific upper/lower octave in the bass pair?
> >>Greg--
> >>=A0=A0=A0
>  >>
> >You need no special symbols. All you need is to assume stringing in
> >octaves.
> >This is a major problem in notation, and some have tried to accomplish
>  >this in small notes. Not a pretty sight.
> >RT
> >
> >
> >
> >=A0
>  >
>
>
> Okay, I was assuming the converse.
>
> Point still well taken.
>
> Greg--
>
> -- 
> Greg Silverman
> EnHS Health Studies
> University of MN
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> phone: 612-625-6870
> fax: 612-624-3370
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

It is in pitchnotationonthegrand staff.  No original tablature survives.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Arthur Ness 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:52 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently 
(the case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is 
always possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand 
staff), but if not Bach made the transription.  The question in my mind is 
whether Weiss also composedthe violin part, andthat in Dresden we have the lute 
part for a sonata for violin and lute.
  
  The c-minor (originally d-minor???),BWV 999, comes down in just one source, a 
manuscript copied by J.P. Kellner, an <>organist. The Kellner who was 
active in lute and gutar music was another person, David K.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Schall 
To: Michael Thames ; Lutelist 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book 
of Perrine


I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the 
collection 
Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?

The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute 
pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the 
g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played 
on 
the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen 
just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher). 
The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and 
highly 
recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are available 
from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan 
Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th 
course which I don't have).

Best wishes
Thomas

Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie:
> >Hi Michael,
> >
> >please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music in
> >tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute 
version
> >(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard 
notation
>
>   Hi Thomas,  Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
> Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by
> Bach.  I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the
> original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
> tablature.  As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there,
> as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    > To: "Lutelist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
> of Perrine
>
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in
> > tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute 
version
> > (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard
> > notation.
> >
> > The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by
> > Falckenhagen
>
> and
>
> > Weyrauch.
> >
> > To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I 
would
> > suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others).
> >
> > Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every
>
> system
>
> > has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from
>
> the
>
> > bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in
>
> "grand
>
> > staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too.
> >
> > As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the
>
> table of
>
> > content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch
> > notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although
>
> occassionally
>
> > annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute
> > Society published such an article. 

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

I'venever seen any pieces wuiththe octave courses in small notes.  Sometimes 
I've used oneor two notes when a suspensionwasresolvedona lower stringand the 
direct resolution wouldbe due to octave stringing.

I'm notgoing t postthis tothe list. 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Greg M. Silverman 
  To: Roman Turovsky 
  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Lutelist 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:11 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  Roman Turovsky wrote:

  >On Jul 5, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Greg M. Silverman wrote:
  >
  >  
  >
  >>Thomas Schall wrote:
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>>Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able 
  >>>to depict
  >>>lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double 
  >>>functions
  >>>of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to 
  >>>smoothly
  >>>change function which is not possible in keyboard music.
  >>>
  >>>Best wishes
  >>>Thomas
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>  
  >>>
  >>Fascinating! So how are the seperate basses notated in tablature for
  >>designating the specific upper/lower octave in the bass pair?
  >>Greg--
  >>
  >>
  >You need no special symbols. All you need is to assume stringing in 
  >octaves.
  >This is a major problem in notation, and some have tried to accomplish 
  >this in small notes. Not a pretty sight.
  >RT
  >
  >
  >
  >  
  >


  Okay, I was assuming the converse.

  Point still well taken.

  Greg--

  -- 
  Greg Silverman
  EnHS Health Studies
  University of MN
  email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  phone: 612-625-6870
  fax: 612-624-3370




  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the 
case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always 
possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff), 
but if not Bach made the transription.  The question in my mind is whether 
Weiss also composedthe violin part, andthat in Dresden we have the lute part 
for a sonata for violin and lute.

The c-minor (originally d-minor???),BWV 999, comes down in just one source, a 
manuscript copied by J.P. Kellner, an organist. The Kellner who was active in 
lute and gutar music was another person, David K.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Schall 
  To: Michael Thames ; Lutelist 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:13 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the collection 
  Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?

  The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute 
  pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the 
  g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played on 
  the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen 
  just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher). 
  The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and highly 
  recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are available 
  from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan 
  Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th 
  course which I don't have).

  Best wishes
  Thomas

  Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie:
  > >Hi Michael,
  > >
  > >please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music in
  > >tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute version
  > >(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard notation
  >
  >   Hi Thomas,  Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
  > Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by
  > Bach.  I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the
  > original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
  > tablature.  As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there,
  > as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
  > Michael Thames
  > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
  > - Original Message -
  > From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  > To: "Lutelist" 
  > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
  > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
  > of Perrine
  >
  > > Hi Michael,
  > >
  > > please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in
  > > tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version
  > > (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard
  > > notation.
  > >
  > > The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by
  > > Falckenhagen
  >
  > and
  >
  > > Weyrauch.
  > >
  > > To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would
  > > suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others).
  > >
  > > Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every
  >
  > system
  >
  > > has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from
  >
  > the
  >
  > > bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in
  >
  > "grand
  >
  > > staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too.
  > >
  > > As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the
  >
  > table of
  >
  > > content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch
  > > notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although
  >
  > occassionally
  >
  > > annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute
  > > Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads
  > > to
  >
  > a
  >
  > > discussion (whatever the sense of this may be).
  > >
  > > Best wishes
  > > Thomas
  > >
  > > Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames:
  > > > I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take
  >
  > issue
  >
  > > > with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well
  > > > established site reading pra

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the 
case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always 
possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff), 
but if not Bach made the transription.  The question in my mind is whether 
Weiss also composedthe violin part, andthat in Dresden we have the lute part 
for a sonata for violin and lute.

The c-minor (originally d-minor???),BWV 999, comes down in just one source, a 
manuscript copied by J.P. Kellner, an organist. The Kellner who was active in 
lute and gutar music was another person, David K.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Schall 
  To: Michael Thames ; Lutelist 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:13 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the collection 
  Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?

  The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute 
  pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the 
  g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played on 
  the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen 
  just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher). 
  The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and highly 
  recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are available 
  from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan 
  Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th 
  course which I don't have).

  Best wishes
  Thomas

  Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie:
  > >Hi Michael,
  > >
  > >please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music in
  > >tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute version
  > >(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard notation
  >
  >   Hi Thomas,  Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
  > Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by
  > Bach.  I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the
  > original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
  > tablature.  As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there,
  > as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
  > Michael Thames
  > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
  > - Original Message -
  > From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  > To: "Lutelist" 
  > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
  > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
  > of Perrine
  >
  > > Hi Michael,
  > >
  > > please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in
  > > tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version
  > > (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard
  > > notation.
  > >
  > > The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by
  > > Falckenhagen
  >
  > and
  >
  > > Weyrauch.
  > >
  > > To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would
  > > suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others).
  > >
  > > Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every
  >
  > system
  >
  > > has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from
  >
  > the
  >
  > > bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in
  >
  > "grand
  >
  > > staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too.
  > >
  > > As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the
  >
  > table of
  >
  > > content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch
  > > notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although
  >
  > occassionally
  >
  > > annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute
  > > Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads
  > > to
  >
  > a
  >
  > > discussion (whatever the sense of this may be).
  > >
  > > Best wishes
  > > Thomas
  > >
  > > Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames:
  > > > I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take
  >
  > issue
  >
  > > > with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well
  > > > established site reading pra

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the 
case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always 
possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff), 
but if not Bach made the transription.  The question in my mind is whether 
Weiss also composedthe violin part, andthat in Dresden we have the lute part 
for a sonata for violin and lute.

The c-minor (originally d-minor???),BWV 999, comes down in just one source, a 
manuscript copied by J.P. Kellner, an organist. The Kellner who was active in 
lute and gutar music was another person, David K.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Schall 
  To: Michael Thames ; Lutelist 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:13 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the collection 
  Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?

  The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute 
  pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the 
  g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played on 
  the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen 
  just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher). 
  The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and highly 
  recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are available 
  from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan 
  Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th 
  course which I don't have).

  Best wishes
  Thomas

  Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie:
  > >Hi Michael,
  > >
  > >please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music in
  > >tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute version
  > >(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard notation
  >
  >   Hi Thomas,  Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
  > Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by
  > Bach.  I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the
  > original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
  > tablature.  As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there,
  > as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
  > Michael Thames
  > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
  > - Original Message -
  > From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  > To: "Lutelist" 
  > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
  > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
  > of Perrine
  >
  > > Hi Michael,
  > >
  > > please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in
  > > tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version
  > > (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard
  > > notation.
  > >
  > > The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by
  > > Falckenhagen
  >
  > and
  >
  > > Weyrauch.
  > >
  > > To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would
  > > suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others).
  > >
  > > Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every
  >
  > system
  >
  > > has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from
  >
  > the
  >
  > > bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in
  >
  > "grand
  >
  > > staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too.
  > >
  > > As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the
  >
  > table of
  >
  > > content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch
  > > notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although
  >
  > occassionally
  >
  > > annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute
  > > Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads
  > > to
  >
  > a
  >
  > > discussion (whatever the sense of this may be).
  > >
  > > Best wishes
  > > Thomas
  > >
  > > Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames:
  > > > I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take
  >
  > issue
  >
  > > > with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well
  > > > established site reading pra

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

Michael,

the c-minor prelude is in staff notation NOT in tablature!
Vivaldi's lute conceros are written in staff notation, too. It was common to 
write the lute part in staff notation for that kind of music. You'll find it 
also in Fasch and others. I don't know about Byrd though ... 
I could send some facsimiles if you want me to

Best wishes
Thomas

Am Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 00:15 schrieben Sie:
> Thomas,
>   So I assume that the c-minor prelude in tablature, is the only source
> for this piece?
>So that being said, I can't wait to get my hands on all this new
> lute music Aurther Ness mentions, Byrd, Couprin, Vivaldi, etc. Does anyone
> know where to find the original facsimiles?
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lutelist"
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:13 PM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
> of Perrine
>
> > I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the
>
> collection
>
> > Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?
> >
> > The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly
> > lute pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to
> > the g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be
> > played
>
> on
>
> > the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen
> > just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher).
> > The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and
>
> highly
>
> > recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are
> > available from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done
> > by Stefan Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he
> > uses a 14th course which I don't have).
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Thomas
> >
> > Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie:
> > > >Hi Michael,
> > > >
> > > >please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music
>
> in
>
> > > >tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute
>
> version
>
> > > >(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard
>
> notation
>
> > >   Hi Thomas,  Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
> > > Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece
> > > by Bach.  I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that
> > > the original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
> > > tablature.  As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go
>
> there,
>
> > > as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
> > > Michael Thames
> > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Lutelist" 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
> > > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
>
> Book
>
> > > of Perrine
> > >
> > > > Hi Michael,
> > > >
> > > > please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music
>
> in
>
> > > > tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute
>
> version
>
> > > > (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard
> > > > notation.
> > > >
> > > > The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by
> > > > Falckenhagen
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > Weyrauch.
> > > >
> > > > To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I
>
> would
>
> > > > suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others).
> > > >
> > > > Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important.
> > > > Every
> > >
> > > system
> > >
> > > > has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo
>
> from
>
> > > the
> > >
> > > > bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in
> > >
> > > "grand
> > >
> > > > staff" is uncomfortable but actually no prob

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

Yes, that's the point.  But editors of lute music tebnd to favor these days the 
Schrade/Kohlhase grand staff. I think it works well with baroque lute music,as 
Doug Smith and Tim Crawford have demonstrated in their Weiss edition, and as 
Kohlhase demonstrated in te New Bach Edition. But for the type of four-part 
polyphony you find in muchRenassance lute music, I findit an awkward way to 
transcribe.  One has to do it guitar-wise.  That is the soprano and alto lines 
are in the treble clef with the stems up, and the tenor and bass lines are in 
the bass clef with the stems down.

Oh Schrade/Kohlase grand staff.  The grand staff, but pushed together so there 
isroomonly for middle C.That is, spaced as if there are 11 lines, with middle C 
being the 11th. But middle C noted with a ledger.  It is usually called the 
Kohlhase staff, but Schrade used it earlier and Doug Smith also. Doug Smithis 
surely responsible for its revival.

Ciao
  - Original Message - 
  From: Greg M. Silverman 
  To: Arthur Ness 
  Cc: Eugene C. Braig IV ; lute list 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:36 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  Arthur Ness wrote:

  >There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff 
is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff.  Hence the 
Schrade (Kohlhase) staff.  But with baroque lute music, the right hand will 
frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two staves do not mark a separation 
point between thehands.
  >  
  >

  Well, sure, but also for piano music the left hand often crosses over
  into the treble clef and vice versa for the right hand going into the
  bass clef, so point is that there really is no point, Ja? ;-)

  Greg--

  >  - Original Message - 
  >  From: Greg M. Silverman 
  >  To: Eugene C. Braig IV 
  >  Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list 
  >  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM
  >  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book 
of Perrine
  >
  >
  >  Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
  >
  >  >At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
  >  >  
  >  >
  >  >>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for keyboard
  >  >>(ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE 
LEFT
  >  >>OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have,
  >  >>when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for
  >  >>keyboard.
  >  >>
  >  >>Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves.
  >  >>That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps,
  >  >>marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that 
keyboard
  >  >>notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the
  >  >>hands somehow work together automatically.
  >  >>
  >  >>
  >  >
  >  >
  >  >Well, not ALL guitarists.
  >  >  
  >  >
  >
  >  Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard.
  >
  >  Greg--
  >
  >--
  >
  >To get on or off this list see list information at
  >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >  
  >


  -- 
  Greg Silverman
  EnHS Health Studies
  University of MN
  email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  phone: 612-625-6870
  fax: 612-624-3370



--

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>Dear Craig,

>Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, >so when special
notation for guitar was invented 200 >years ago that is surely recent.  It's
even recent in the >history of the guitar, which has been around since the
>1400s.

Dear Arthur,  the six string guitar,  which has been the entire
focus of this discussion was invented in the decade of 1780, it adopted
already existing musical notation, nothing new was invented, with the
exception of the guitar itself.
   In the lifespan of the guitar, the notation is OLD. Saying that modern
guitar notation is a recent development is wrong.  The only notation the six
string has ever known is treble clef.  I  also appreciate your attempt to
divert attention to the 1400th century guitar but that's not at all what we
are talking about, good try!

Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> Dear Craig,
>
> Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, so when special
notation for guitar was invented 200 years ago that is surely recent.  It's
even recent in the history of the guitar, which has been around since the
1400s. I don't know where guitarists picked up the idea of a treble clef
sounding an octave lower.  Some Italian lute music uses a treble sounding an
octave lower, as does notation in the treble clef for cello (used mostly
before ca. 1900).
>
> Some persons consider "early music" to be music before Bach.  Some also
call that repertory "pre-music music."  But others would claim that music
using, say period instruments, belongs in the early music category. So I
guess performers are pushing the frontiers of early music forward when they
play Stravinsky on period instruments.  And recently there has been an
interest in"authentic" performance pratices in Brahms.  I recently heard the
Fourth Symphny played on period instruments of the kind in use in Brahms's
day.  I didn't realize it, but the ophicleid is a very agile instrument.
Lots of themes and variations were written for it in the 19th cenury.  A
trombonist in the Boston SO has made it a specialty.
>
> ajn
> ajn
>   - Original Message -
>   From: Craig Allen
>   To: Lutelist
>   Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:57 PM
>   Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine
>
>
>   Michael wrote:
>   >
>   >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
>   >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
around,
>   >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past
and
>   >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
time
>   >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in
you
>   >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>
>   At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance
and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that
category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs.
400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger
than the English Renaissance "modern".
>
>   Regards,
>   Craig
>
>
>
>   ___
>   $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
>   10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
>   Signup at www.doteasy.com
>
>
>
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

Thomas,
  So I assume that the c-minor prelude in tablature, is the only source
for this piece?
   So that being said, I can't wait to get my hands on all this new lute
music Aurther Ness mentions, Byrd, Couprin, Vivaldi, etc. Does anyone know
where to find the original facsimiles?
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lutelist"

Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the
collection
> Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?
>
> The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute
> pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the
> g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played
on
> the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen
> just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher).
> The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and
highly
> recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are available
> from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan
> Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th
> course which I don't have).
>
> Best wishes
> Thomas
>
> Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie:
> > >Hi Michael,
> > >
> > >please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music
in
> > >tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute
version
> > >(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard
notation
> >
> >   Hi Thomas,  Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
> > Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by
> > Bach.  I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the
> > original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
> > tablature.  As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go
there,
> > as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
> > Michael Thames
> > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Lutelist" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
> > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book
> > of Perrine
> >
> > > Hi Michael,
> > >
> > > please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music
in
> > > tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute
version
> > > (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard
> > > notation.
> > >
> > > The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by
> > > Falckenhagen
> >
> > and
> >
> > > Weyrauch.
> > >
> > > To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I
would
> > > suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others).
> > >
> > > Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every
> >
> > system
> >
> > > has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo
from
> >
> > the
> >
> > > bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in
> >
> > "grand
> >
> > > staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too.
> > >
> > > As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the
> >
> > table of
> >
> > > content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for
pitch
> > > notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although
> >
> > occassionally
> >
> > > annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the
Lute
> > > Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe
leads
> > > to
> >
> > a
> >
> > > discussion (whatever the sense of this may be).
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > > Thomas
> > >
> > > Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames:
> > > > I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do
take
> >
> > issue
> >
> > > > with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning th

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Greg M. Silverman]

Thomas Schall wrote:

>that's my point! There notated as a bass (for instance a C ///a assuming 
>renaissance g-tuning) but there is also a c sounding an octave higher which 
>could be used to lead to a tone an octave higher and so on. Take a look at 
>italian early baroque music. This effect is used very often.
>
>Best wishes
>Thomas
>
>Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 23:27 schrieben Sie:
>  
>
>>e the seperate basses notated in tablature for
>>designating the specific
>>
>>
>
>  
>

Okay, I misunderstood your point at first, but this example definitely
clarifies it.

Thanks!

Greg--



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Greg M. Silverman]

Roman Turovsky wrote:

>On Jul 5, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Greg M. Silverman wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Thomas Schall wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able 
>>>to depict
>>>lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double 
>>>functions
>>>of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to 
>>>smoothly
>>>change function which is not possible in keyboard music.
>>>
>>>Best wishes
>>>Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>Fascinating! So how are the seperate basses notated in tablature for
>>designating the specific upper/lower octave in the bass pair?
>>Greg--
>>
>>
>You need no special symbols. All you need is to assume stringing in 
>octaves.
>This is a major problem in notation, and some have tried to accomplish 
>this in small notes. Not a pretty sight.
>RT
>
>
>
>  
>


Okay, I was assuming the converse.

Point still well taken.

Greg--

-- 
Greg Silverman
EnHS Health Studies
University of MN
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: 612-625-6870
fax: 612-624-3370




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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

that's my point! There notated as a bass (for instance a C ///a assuming 
renaissance g-tuning) but there is also a c sounding an octave higher which 
could be used to lead to a tone an octave higher and so on. Take a look at 
italian early baroque music. This effect is used very often.

Best wishes
Thomas

Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 23:27 schrieben Sie:
> e the seperate basses notated in tablature for
> designating the specific

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Roman Turovsky]

On Jul 5, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Greg M. Silverman wrote:

> Thomas Schall wrote:
>
>> Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able 
>> to depict
>> lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double 
>> functions
>> of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to 
>> smoothly
>> change function which is not possible in keyboard music.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>
> Fascinating! So how are the seperate basses notated in tablature for
> designating the specific upper/lower octave in the bass pair?
> Greg--
You need no special symbols. All you need is to assume stringing in 
octaves.
This is a major problem in notation, and some have tried to accomplish 
this in small notes. Not a pretty sight.
RT



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Greg M. Silverman]

Thomas Schall wrote:

>Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able to depict 
>lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double functions 
>of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to smoothly 
>change function which is not possible in keyboard music. 
>
>Best wishes
>Thomas
>  
>

Fascinating! So how are the seperate basses notated in tablature for
designating the specific upper/lower octave in the bass pair?


Greg--


>Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 22:36 schrieben Sie:
>  
>
>>Arthur Ness wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand
>>>staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. 
>>>Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff.  But with baroque lute music, the
>>>right hand will frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two staves do
>>>not mark a separation point between thehands.
>>>  
>>>
>>Well, sure, but also for piano music the left hand often crosses over
>>into the treble clef and vice versa for the right hand going into the
>>bass clef, so point is that there really is no point, Ja? ;-)
>>
>>Greg--
>>
>>
>>
>>> - Original Message -----
>>> From: Greg M. Silverman
>>> To: Eugene C. Braig IV
>>> Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
>>>Book of Perrine
>>>
>>> Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
>>> >At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>>> >>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for
>>> >> keyboard (ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR
>>> >> LUTE ARE LEFT OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar
>>> >> players seem to have, when they claim that when lute music is in
>>> >> pitch notation it is for keyboard.
>>> >>
>>> >>Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two
>>> >> staves. That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch
>>> >> notation. Harps, marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we
>>> >> don't call that keyboard notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that
>>> >> when you play a keyboard the hands somehow work together
>>> >> automatically.
>>> >
>>> >Well, not ALL guitarists.
>>>
>>> Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard.
>>>
>>> Greg--
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>  
>>>
>
>  
>


-- 
Greg Silverman
EnHS Health Studies
University of MN
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: 612-625-6870
fax: 612-624-3370

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able to depict 
lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double functions 
of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to smoothly 
change function which is not possible in keyboard music. 

Best wishes
Thomas

Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 22:36 schrieben Sie:
> Arthur Ness wrote:
> >There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand
> > staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. 
> > Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff.  But with baroque lute music, the
> > right hand will frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two staves do
> > not mark a separation point between thehands.
>
> Well, sure, but also for piano music the left hand often crosses over
> into the treble clef and vice versa for the right hand going into the
> bass clef, so point is that there really is no point, Ja? ;-)
>
> Greg--
>
> >  - Original Message -
> >  From: Greg M. Silverman
> >  To: Eugene C. Braig IV
> >  Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list
> >  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM
> >  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> > Book of Perrine
> >
> >  Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
> >  >At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
> >  >>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for
> >  >> keyboard (ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR
> >  >> LUTE ARE LEFT OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar
> >  >> players seem to have, when they claim that when lute music is in
> >  >> pitch notation it is for keyboard.
> >  >>
> >  >>Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two
> >  >> staves. That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch
> >  >> notation. Harps, marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we
> >  >> don't call that keyboard notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that
> >  >> when you play a keyboard the hands somehow work together
> >  >> automatically.
> >  >
> >  >Well, not ALL guitarists.
> >
> >  Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard.
> >
> >  Greg--
> >
> >--
> >
> >To get on or off this list see list information at
> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/

Re: FW: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

Perrine is newly set by Doug Towne (whose work is tremendous!) and can be 
downloaded on Francesco's Yahoo-Fronimo site. 

Best wishes
Thomas

Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 20:36 schrieben Sie:
> And also in the same vein...
>
> The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
> Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time.
>
> Where is this thread going?
> Perrine?  Does anyone have any sample (example) files in Fronimo?
>
> Best Wishes
>
> Ron (UK)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 05 July 2005 18:58
> To: Lutelist
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>
> Michael wrote:
> >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
>
> around,
>
> >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past
>
> and
>
> >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
>
> time
>
> >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in
>
> you
>
> >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>
> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance
> and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that
> category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200
> vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything
> younger than the English Renaissance "modern".
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
>
>
> ___
> $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
> Signup at www.doteasy.com
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Greg M. Silverman]

Arthur Ness wrote:

>There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is 
>used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff.  Hence the 
>Schrade (Kohlhase) staff.  But with baroque lute music, the right hand will 
>frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two staves do not mark a separation 
>point between thehands.
>  
>

Well, sure, but also for piano music the left hand often crosses over
into the treble clef and vice versa for the right hand going into the
bass clef, so point is that there really is no point, Ja? ;-)

Greg--

>  - Original Message - 
>  From: Greg M. Silverman 
>  To: Eugene C. Braig IV 
>  Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list 
>  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM
>  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
> Perrine
>
>
>  Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
>
>  >At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>  >  
>  >
>  >>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for keyboard
>  >>(ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT
>  >>OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have,
>  >>when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for
>  >>keyboard.
>  >>
>  >>Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves.
>  >>That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps,
>  >>marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that keyboard
>  >>notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the
>  >>hands somehow work together automatically.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >
>  >Well, not ALL guitarists.
>  >  
>  >
>
>  Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard.
>
>  Greg--
>
>--
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  
>


-- 
Greg Silverman
EnHS Health Studies
University of MN
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: 612-625-6870
fax: 612-624-3370

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

"Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Yes, an the term tablature for what is essentially the basic grand staff of 
> keyboard 
> musicwas so called in theRenaissancesince 4 "instrumental voice parts" were 
> tabulated onto 
> two staves.  Thatis the origin of lute tabature, but they used numbers 
> instead of pitches on 
> staves.

curious to get to know more about the origins of tablature.

Cheers,

Mathias

--

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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

Dear Craig,

Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, so when special notation 
for guitar was invented 200 years ago that is surely recent.  It's even recent 
in the history of the guitar, which has been around since the 1400s. I don't 
know where guitarists picked up the idea of a treble clef sounding an octave 
lower.  Some Italian lute music uses a treble sounding an octave lower, as does 
notation in the treble clef for cello (used mostly before ca. 1900).

Some persons consider "early music" to be music before Bach.  Some also call 
that repertory "pre-music music."  But others would claim that music using, 
say period instruments, belongs in the early music category. So I guess 
performers are pushing the frontiers of early music forward when they play 
Stravinsky on period instruments.  And recently there has been an interest 
in"authentic" performance pratices in Brahms.  I recently heard the Fourth 
Symphny played on period instruments of the kind in use in Brahms's day.  I 
didn't realize it, but the ophicleid is a very agile instrument.  Lots of 
themes and variations were written for it in the 19th cenury.  A trombonist in 
the Boston SO has made it a specialty.

ajn
ajn
  - Original Message - 
  From: Craig Allen 
  To: Lutelist 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:57 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  Michael wrote:
  >
  >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
  >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
  >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
  >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of time
  >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
  >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!

  At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and 
Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's 
not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years 
old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English 
Renaissance "modern".

  Regards,
  Craig



  ___
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--

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the collection 
Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?

The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute 
pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the 
g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played on 
the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen 
just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher). 
The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and highly 
recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are available 
from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan 
Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th 
course which I don't have).

Best wishes
Thomas

Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie:
> >Hi Michael,
> >
> >please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music in
> >tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute version
> >(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard notation
>
>   Hi Thomas,  Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
> Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by
> Bach.  I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the
> original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
> tablature.  As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there,
> as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> - Original Message -
> From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lutelist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
> of Perrine
>
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in
> > tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version
> > (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard
> > notation.
> >
> > The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by
> > Falckenhagen
>
> and
>
> > Weyrauch.
> >
> > To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would
> > suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others).
> >
> > Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every
>
> system
>
> > has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from
>
> the
>
> > bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in
>
> "grand
>
> > staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too.
> >
> > As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the
>
> table of
>
> > content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch
> > notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although
>
> occassionally
>
> > annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute
> > Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads
> > to
>
> a
>
> > discussion (whatever the sense of this may be).
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Thomas
> >
> > Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames:
> > > I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take
>
> issue
>
> > > with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well
> > > established site reading practices, of guitarists for the past 2
>
> centuries,
>
> > > which astonishingly, you called a recent development.  I did sense a
> > > haughtiness in your remarks, which compelled me to respond.
> > >
> > > >Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, >J.S.Bach,
>
> Vivaldi,
>
> > > > three anonymous composers from the >18th-century (formerly in Bob
> > > > Spencer's collection) all wrote >lute music in pitch notation using
>
> two
>
> > > > staves
> > >
> > >I really don't know what to say to this. I'm speechless!
> > >   To suggest that these composers wrote lute music, is again
>
> astonishing!
>
> > > The only original lute music Bach wrote was in Tablature, and I
>
> think
>
> > > by now Mr.Ness, most scholars accept Bach wrote none. As far as Byrd
>
> goes,
>
> > > do you include lute arrangemen

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>At a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which >played medieval
music
>and she said (before a baroque recital): "come on let's go >to the cinema -
I
>can't stand that modern stuff" :-)
>I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity >of guitar notation
but
,>given a time line of - say 900 up to now - something >which is 200 years
old
>is fairly new.

>Best wishes
>Thomas

Lets look at it this way. The birth of the classical guitar with six
single strings took place in the decade of 1780 if not before by a few
years. To then say that the notation for this very instrument is a
relatively new thing doesn't make any sense in relation toAt a lute festival
I met a member of an ensemble which played medieval music
and she said (before a baroque recital): "come on let's go to the cinema - I
can't stand that modern stuff" :-)
I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity of guitar notation
but
given a time line of - say 900 up to now - something which is 200 years old
is fairly new.

Best wishes
Thomas
 the instrument we are discussing

Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> At a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which played medieval
music
> and she said (before a baroque recital): "come on let's go to the cinema -
I
> can't stand that modern stuff" :-)
> I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity of guitar notation
but
> given a time line of - say 900 up to now - something which is 200 years
old
> is fairly new.
>
> Best wishes
> Thomas
>
> Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:57 schrieb Craig Allen:
> > Michael wrote:
> > >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> > >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
> > > around, for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of
the
> > > past and present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the
> > > passage of time is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener
are
> > > you using in you coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
> >
> > At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance
and
> > Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that
category.
> > It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or
more
> > years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
> > English Renaissance "modern".
> >
> > Regards,
> > Craig
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
> > Signup at www.doteasy.com
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
> Thomas Schall
> Niederhofheimer Weg 3
> D-65843 Sulzbach
> 06196/74519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
> Wiesentalstrasse 41
> CH-8355 Aadorf
>
> http://www.lautenist.de
> http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
> http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
> http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/
>
>
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

At a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which played medieval music 
and she said (before a baroque recital): "come on let's go to the cinema - I 
can't stand that modern stuff" :-)
I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity of guitar notation but 
given a time line of - say 900 up to now - something which is 200 years old 
is fairly new.

Best wishes
Thomas

Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:57 schrieb Craig Allen:
> Michael wrote:
> >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
> > around, for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the
> > past and present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the
> > passage of time is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are
> > you using in you coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>
> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and
> Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category.
> It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more
> years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
> English Renaissance "modern".
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
>
>
> ___
> $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
> Signup at www.doteasy.com
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at >all,
>because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes dispensable in it.
>RT

My heart is filled with joy, and prayers have been answered, that
you have finally come full circle and reinvented yourself as the REAL Roman
Trovosky, that we all have come to love, and cherish.  Welcome home, it's
been a long time!  Finally you've succeeded in shedding the old skin of Mr.
Polyhimnion, lute -9.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> Mathias, you can and may speak for 99.9% of "us", because David's
> prowess is in no way indicative of habits or abilities of the general
> lute population.
> I am with you on the first issue, because our first responsibility is
> music itself, and playing from written out music rather than from
> tabulature has not made anyone a better player yet.
>
> As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at all,
> because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes are a priori
> dispensable in it.
> RT
>
>
> > Dear David,
> >
> > yes, you're right, I shall speak for myself. And sorry, I should have
> > been more precise. What I was referring to in particular is playing
> > solo
> > pieces. I for one will always prefer tablature when it comes to playing
> > solo pieces, on renaissance or baroque lute, no matter how exact or
> > appropiate transcription of CNRS or DTÖ or Erbe will be.
> >
> > As for continuo, I cannot imagine anything else but playing from grand
> > staff, of course. And I'll be grateful if there is keyboard realization
> > at hand from which I can more easily and quicker see what I should do.
> > But that is an entirely different matter. The present issue was about
> > transcriptions of existing tablatures.
> >
> > Would you prefer to play Dowland's Can She Excuse from tablature or
> > from
> > transcribed grand staff, David?
> >
> > Viele Grüße
> >
> > Mathias
> > --
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

  "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I'm not familiar with Vetter's book. But couldn't you extract the lines as 
> SATB, put words 
> to themand sing them in your chorius?  That's what I mean by "parts."  Lote 
> of instrumental 
> music is  like vocal music, but without words.

yes, that's the case with a lot 16th century music (it's called
kantionalsatz in German music theory). You can put the parts into a
double system and play it on the keyboard (and on the renaissance lute,
btw) immediately from score.

But Vetter's is different, it's first quarter 18th century. The chorale
accompaniment is entirely instrumental (voices jump over more than one
octave and exceed the ranges of human voices). His variations
(divisions) on each chorale are set in broken style.

Vetter kept his promise and made his divisions not too difficult. After
a little reading-practice (descant and bass clefs), you will be able to
play the divisions from score on the lute (my instrument of choice is
the 11c lute, but 10c lute will probably do just as well).

However, if what is accepted and done by the vast majority qualifies as
standard, then tablature is standard notation. That's why I intabulated
some of the divisions into Fronimo and posted them.

Best,

Mathias

--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that >the grand
staff is used for keyboard music so that each >hand has a separate staff.
Hence the Schrade <><(Kohlhase) >staff.  But with baroque lute music, the
right frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two mark a separation point between 
To: "Greg M. Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Eugene C. Braig IV"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lute list" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand
staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff.
Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff.  But with baroque lute music, the right
hand will frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two staves do not mark a
separation point between thehands.
>   - Original Message -
>   From: Greg M. Silverman
>   To: Eugene C. Braig IV
>   Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list
>   Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM
>   Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine
>
>
>   Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
>
>   >At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   >>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for
keyboard
>   >>(ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE
LEFT
>   >>OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to
have,
>   >>when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for
>   >>keyboard.
>   >>
>   >>Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two
staves.
>   >>That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation.
Harps,
>   >>marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that
keyboard
>   >>notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard
the
>   >>hands somehow work together automatically.
>   >>
>   >>
>   >
>   >
>   >Well, not ALL guitarists.
>   >
>   >
>
>   Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard.
>
>   Greg--
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is 
used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff.  Hence the 
Schrade (Kohlhase) staff.  But with baroque lute music, the right hand will 
frequently play in the bass clef.  So the two staves do not mark a separation 
point between thehands.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Greg M. Silverman 
  To: Eugene C. Braig IV 
  Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:

  >At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
  >  
  >
  >>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for keyboard
  >>(ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT
  >>OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have,
  >>when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for
  >>keyboard.
  >>
  >>Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves.
  >>That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps,
  >>marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that keyboard
  >>notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the
  >>hands somehow work together automatically.
  >>
  >>
  >
  >
  >Well, not ALL guitarists.
  >  
  >

  Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard.

  Greg--

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
>Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time.

I guess that's why we call Europe the old world, and America the new
world. The only problem is Ness lives in Boston!  Things happen here allot
faster than over there.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Ron Fletcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:36 PM
Subject: FW: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> And also in the same vein...
>
> The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
> Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time.
>
> Where is this thread going?
> Perrine?  Does anyone have any sample (example) files in Fronimo?
>
> Best Wishes
>
> Ron (UK)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 05 July 2005 18:58
> To: Lutelist
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
>
> Michael wrote:
> >
> >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
> around,
> >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past
> and
> >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
> time
> >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in
> you
> >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>
> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance
> and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that
> category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200
> vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything
> younger than the English Renaissance "modern".
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
>
>
> ___
> $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
> Signup at www.doteasy.com
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Tony Chalkley]

This is for Ron, actually.  I think Bernd might have been trying to point
you back to the beginning of the thread (which has occasioned a long overdue
refusal of messages from one member of the list), and pointing you to:-

you can download it from Richard Civiol's homepage:

http://www.ifrance.com/luth-librairie/index.htm

and

It's Douglas Towne
who reintabulated Perrine into Fronimo tab. It is accessible at

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fronimo_editor/files/Tablatures/



- Original Message -
From: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> (sent)
>
> > Perrine?  Does anyone have any sample (example) files in Fronimo?
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>

FW: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Ron Fletcher]

And also in the same vein...

The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time.

Where is this thread going?
Perrine?  Does anyone have any sample (example) files in Fronimo?

Best Wishes

Ron (UK)

-Original Message-
From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 05 July 2005 18:58
To: Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine

Michael wrote:
>
>   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
>comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
around,
>for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past
and
>present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
time
>is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in
you
>coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!

At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance
and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that
category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200
vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything
younger than the English Renaissance "modern".

Regards,
Craig



___
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10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
Signup at www.doteasy.com



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies >Renaissance and
Medieval music calls a thing modern, >200 easily falls into that category.
It's not an insult, just a >fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more
years >old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger >than the
English Renaissance "modern".

>Regards,

 I see your point, BTW right now I'm listening to some " relatively
modern", Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Weiss, not to mention a little modern
guitar music by Sor.
>Craig

Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Craig Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> Michael wrote:
> >
> >   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
> >comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been
around,
> >for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
> >present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of
time
> >is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
> >coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!
>
> At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and
Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category.
It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more
years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
English Renaissance "modern".
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
>
>
> ___
> $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
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>
>
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>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Craig Allen]

Michael wrote:
>
>   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
>comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
>for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
>present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of time
>is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
>coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!

At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and 
Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's 
not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years 
old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English 
Renaissance "modern".

Regards,
Craig



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>BTW: It's absolute correct to tell the way guitar music is >notated today a
>relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance >until the late
>baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate >the music for the
>guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar >technique causes
this
>change in notation. The tab system has many advantages >when assuming
>rasguado-playing ...

>Best wishes
>Thomas

   Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
comments.  However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
present, a " relatively modern invention"  your sense of the passage of time
is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you
coffee thesedays?  I'd like to try some too!

Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> Hi
>
> BTW: It's absolut correct to tell the way guitar music is notated today a
> relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance until the late
> baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate the music for the
> guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar technique causes
this
> change in notation. The tab system has many advantages when assuming
> rasguado-playing ...
>
> Best wishes
> Thomas
>
> --
> Thomas Schall
> Niederhofheimer Weg 3
> D-65843 Sulzbach
> 06196/74519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
> Wiesentalstrasse 41
> CH-8355 Aadorf
>
> http://www.lautenist.de
> http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
> http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
> http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

>Hi Michael,

>please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music in
>tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute version
>(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard notation

  Hi Thomas,  Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by
Bach.  I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the
original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
tablature.  As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there, as
I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> Hi Michael,
>
> please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in
> tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version
> (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation.
>
> The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by Falckenhagen
and
> Weyrauch.
>
> To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would
> suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others).
>
> Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every
system
> has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from
the
> bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in
"grand
> staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too.
>
> As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the
table of
> content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch
> notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although
occassionally
> annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute
> Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads to
a
> discussion (whatever the sense of this may be).
>
> Best wishes
> Thomas
>
> Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames:
> > I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take
issue
> > with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well
> > established site reading practices, of guitarists for the past 2
centuries,
> > which astonishingly, you called a recent development.  I did sense a
> > haughtiness in your remarks, which compelled me to respond.
> >
> > >Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, >J.S.Bach,
Vivaldi,
> > > three anonymous composers from the >18th-century (formerly in Bob
> > > Spencer's collection) all wrote >lute music in pitch notation using
two
> > > staves
> >
> >I really don't know what to say to this. I'm speechless!
> >   To suggest that these composers wrote lute music, is again
astonishing!
> > The only original lute music Bach wrote was in Tablature, and I
think
> > by now Mr.Ness, most scholars accept Bach wrote none. As far as Byrd
goes,
> > do you include lute arrangements for keyboard, lute music?  As far as
> > Couperin, do you also include writing in the style of lute music, lute
> > music?  as far as Julio da Modena, and Chambonieres goes I've never even
> > heard of them, as I said before I am ignorant. However if I follow your
> > train of thought, logic would conclude that these composers most likely
did
> > some kind of arrangements for lute as well. I'm sure one can find
isolated
> > cases in which lute music was written in grand staff, but not by a
single
> > major composer or lutenist!  To suggest this sets a president, is the
same
> > as you saying modern guitar notation is a recent development, very
> > misleading! and a huge stretch.
> >
> > >  Universally lute music in pitch notation uses the grand >staff,
Even
> > > many guitarists today advocate guitar music on >two staves, and a
recent
> > > edition (ca. 2002) of arrangements >of Bach for solo guitar is notated
> > > for ease in reading on two >staves.  Maybe you'd better start
practicing
> > > your bass clef, >before it's too late.  Actually guitar notation on a
> > > single stave >is a fairly recent phenomenon, dating from the late
> > > 18th->/early 19th century
> >
> >I don't play any instrument which would require me to read bass
> > clef, but thanks for your ina

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Greg M. Silverman]

Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:

>At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>  
>
>>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for keyboard
>>(ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT
>>OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have,
>>when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for
>>keyboard.
>>
>>Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves.
>>That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps,
>>marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that keyboard
>>notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the
>>hands somehow work together automatically.
>>
>>
>
>
>Well, not ALL guitarists.
>  
>

Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard.

Greg--



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition.  But it is for keyboard
>(ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT
>OUT   This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have,
>when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for
>keyboard.
>
>Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves.
>That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps,
>marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that keyboard
>notation, do we?  Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the
>hands somehow work together automatically.


Well, not ALL guitarists.

Eugene 



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

"Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at all, 
> because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes are a priori 
> dispensable in it.

point taken, yes. You may say I play alien music on the lute :)

All the best

Mathias
--

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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Arthur,

thanks a lot for those kind and clever suggestions regarding different
modes of edition. I shall forward them!

Modern transcriptions of intabulated vocal part music can be considered
restorations of the original notation. To that I must agree. But with
instrumental music, things are different.

Daniel Vetter's Musicalische Hausz- und Kirch-Ergoetzlichkeit was
published in two parts in the years 1709, and 1713, in Leipzig. Vetter
was organist at St. Nicolai. The books contain chorales in
four-part-setting for the organ, with almost each one followed by
several divisions to be played at home on the spinett or clavichord
(I've intabulated some of them for 11c lute and posted them to the
Fronimo-page, btw). This is instrumental music, if you will, not
intabulated parts of vocal music.

With both parts of that work, the subtitle reads: auff eine angenehme
jedoch gantz leichte Manier in Italienische Tabulatur gesetzt (in a
pleasant but very easy fashion set into Italian tablature). In fact,
this Italian tablature implies double systems of descant and bass clefs.
Vetter does not furthermore mention the name tablature in his prefaces,
or introductions, in either part. From that I take it that the very name
Italian tablature was just familiar to everyone then and didn't need
further explanation.

If you look at organ music in 16th and 17th centuries, you can see why
this is so. Germans would notate in German organ tablature (even someone
as late as Bach did it, when he ran short of paper, in one of his lute
works). The Spanish would make use of Spanish organ tablature (Cabezon
et al come to mind). However, in Italy double systems of several lines
with mensural notes on them were used. Almost grand staff except that
their systems consisted of a lot more lines that five (cf. Frescobaldi).
The middle space was usually reserved for the note B.

Let me put it straight: This is Italian organ tablature, it is notation
of finger positions, indeed. Just look at it, that staff  represents
white keys of the keyboard, whereas sharps and flats signify black keys
at the right, or left, of white keys.

I should be curious what e. g. William Byrd named his system of
notation. Would it be correct to say that in Britain no innate system
was invented but instead Italian and French systems of musical notation
were taken over? Or vice versa, that Spanish and German systems were not
taken over?

Best wishes from humid North Germany!

Mathias
--

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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

Hi

BTW: It's absolut correct to tell the way guitar music is notated today a 
relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance until the late 
baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate the music for the 
guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar technique causes this 
change in notation. The tab system has many advantages when assuming 
rasguado-playing ... 

Best wishes
Thomas 

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Thomas Schall]

Hi Michael,

please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in 
tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version 
(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation. 

The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by Falckenhagen and 
Weyrauch.

To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would 
suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others). 

Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every system 
has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from the 
bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in "grand 
staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too. 

As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the table of 
content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch 
notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although occassionally 
annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute 
Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads to a 
discussion (whatever the sense of this may be).

Best wishes
Thomas 

Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames:
> I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take issue
> with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well
> established site reading practices, of guitarists for the past 2 centuries,
> which astonishingly, you called a recent development.  I did sense a
> haughtiness in your remarks, which compelled me to respond.
>
> >Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, >J.S.Bach, Vivaldi,
> > three anonymous composers from the >18th-century (formerly in Bob
> > Spencer's collection) all wrote >lute music in pitch notation using two
> > staves
>
>I really don't know what to say to this. I'm speechless!
>   To suggest that these composers wrote lute music, is again astonishing!
> The only original lute music Bach wrote was in Tablature, and I think
> by now Mr.Ness, most scholars accept Bach wrote none. As far as Byrd goes,
> do you include lute arrangements for keyboard, lute music?  As far as
> Couperin, do you also include writing in the style of lute music, lute
> music?  as far as Julio da Modena, and Chambonieres goes I've never even
> heard of them, as I said before I am ignorant. However if I follow your
> train of thought, logic would conclude that these composers most likely did
> some kind of arrangements for lute as well. I'm sure one can find isolated
> cases in which lute music was written in grand staff, but not by a single
> major composer or lutenist!  To suggest this sets a president, is the same
> as you saying modern guitar notation is a recent development, very
> misleading! and a huge stretch.
>
> >  Universally lute music in pitch notation uses the grand >staff, Even
> > many guitarists today advocate guitar music on >two staves, and a recent
> > edition (ca. 2002) of arrangements >of Bach for solo guitar is notated
> > for ease in reading on two >staves.  Maybe you'd better start practicing
> > your bass clef, >before it's too late.  Actually guitar notation on a
> > single stave >is a fairly recent phenomenon, dating from the late
> > 18th->/early 19th century
>
>I don't play any instrument which would require me to read bass
> clef, but thanks for your inappropriate advice just the same. Again,  if I
> follow your logic you are simply saying that guitar notation has been the
> norm from the very beginning and conception of the guitar itself , the "
> late 18th century, a fairly redundant remark.  That's the same as saying
> violin music has only been around since the invention of the violin. Who
> established so called "universal lute music" I've never heard of such a
> term.
>
> >Do you know of any historical lute music written in pitch >notation on a
> > single staff?  Except for guitar editions,I don't >even know any modern
> > editions of lute music on a single >stave. Do you? And it's virtually
> > impossible to notate >baroque lute music on a single stave
>
>I know of zero, lute music written on any staff.
>The point is, who are you making these editions for, lutenists, and
> guitarists or some imaginary scholar or keyboard entity? This might well
> satisfy your academic desires, but is hardy practible, in today's world.
> Might I suggest, you come down off your high horse, and instead of
> suggesting guitarists conform to your way of thinking, you might conform to
> thier

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Michael Thames]

I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take issue 
with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well 
established site reading practices, of guitarists for the past 2 centuries, 
which astonishingly, you called a recent development.  I did sense a 
haughtiness in your remarks, which compelled me to respond.

>Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, >J.S.Bach, Vivaldi, three 
>anonymous composers from the >18th-century (formerly in Bob Spencer's 
>collection) all wrote >lute music in pitch notation using two staves

   I really don't know what to say to this. I'm speechless!
  To suggest that these composers wrote lute music, is again astonishing! 
The only original lute music Bach wrote was in Tablature, and I think by 
now Mr.Ness, most scholars accept Bach wrote none. 
 As far as Byrd goes, do you include lute arrangements for keyboard, lute 
music?  As far as Couperin, do you also include writing in the style of lute 
music, lute music?  as far as Julio da Modena, and Chambonieres goes I've never 
even heard of them, as I said before I am ignorant. However if I follow your 
train of thought, logic would conclude that these composers most likely did 
some kind of arrangements for lute as well.  
   I'm sure one can find isolated cases in which lute music was written in 
grand staff, but not by a single major composer or lutenist!  To suggest this 
sets a president, is the same as you saying modern guitar notation is a recent 
development, very misleading! and a huge stretch.

>  Universally lute music in pitch notation uses the grand >staff, Even 
> many guitarists today advocate guitar music on >two staves, and a recent 
> edition (ca. 2002) of arrangements >of Bach for solo guitar is notated for 
> ease in reading on two >staves.  Maybe you'd better start practicing your 
> bass clef, >before it's too late.  Actually guitar notation on a single stave 
> >is a fairly recent phenomenon, dating from the late 18th->/early 19th century

   I don't play any instrument which would require me to read bass clef, 
but thanks for your inappropriate advice just the same.
  Again,  if I follow your logic you are simply saying that guitar notation has 
been the norm from the very beginning and conception of the guitar itself , the 
" late 18th century, a fairly redundant remark.  That's the same as saying 
violin music has only been around since the invention of the violin.
Who established so called "universal lute music" I've never heard of such a 
term.  


>Do you know of any historical lute music written in pitch >notation on a 
>single staff?  Except for guitar editions,I don't >even know any modern 
>editions of lute music on a single >stave. Do you? And it's virtually 
>impossible to notate >baroque lute music on a single stave

   I know of zero, lute music written on any staff.
   The point is, who are you making these editions for, lutenists, and 
guitarists or some imaginary scholar or keyboard entity? This might well 
satisfy your academic desires, but is hardy practible, in today's world.
  Might I suggest, you come down off your high horse, and instead of 
suggesting guitarists conform to your way of thinking, you might conform to 
thier's.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
  - Original Message ----- 
  From: Arthur Ness 
  To: Michael Thames 
  Cc: lute list 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:54 AM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  I think you just demonstrate your ignorance when you write things like this, 
Michael.  And snide, rude remarks just create a hostile environment, and weaken 
your argument, if you had one. You do not help your advocacy of guitar music 
with such an attitude. No one here is attempting to ridicule the guitar and 
guitar music, or even prove the superiority of lute music over guitar music.  
Unlike the frequent complaint of playing Bach on a concert grand piano, I have 
never even heard purists complain about playing lute music on guitar. And the 
complaint is a valid one, although I do not subscribe to it.

  Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, J.S.Bach, Vivaldi, three 
anonymous composers from the 18th-century (formerly in Bob Spencer's 
collection) all wrote lute music in pitch notation using two staves.  I know of 
four or five large manuscripts in Darmstadt, Stockholm,St. Petersburg, Wroclaw, 
containing lute music in pitch notation.  And many others are doubtlessly 
waiting to be disclosed when James Tyler finishes his work.

  Do you know of any historical lute music written in pitch notation on a 
single staff?  Except for guitar editions,I don't even know any modern editions 
of lute music on a single stave.

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Roman Turovsky]

Mathias, you can and may speak for 99.9% of "us", because David's 
prowess is in no way indicative of habits or abilities of the general 
lute population.
I am with you on the first issue, because our first responsibility is 
music itself, and playing from written out music rather than from 
tabulature has not made anyone a better player yet.

As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at all, 
because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes are a priori 
dispensable in it.
RT


> Dear David,
>
> yes, you're right, I shall speak for myself. And sorry, I should have
> been more precise. What I was referring to in particular is playing 
> solo
> pieces. I for one will always prefer tablature when it comes to playing
> solo pieces, on renaissance or baroque lute, no matter how exact or
> appropiate transcription of CNRS or DTÖ or Erbe will be.
>
> As for continuo, I cannot imagine anything else but playing from grand
> staff, of course. And I'll be grateful if there is keyboard realization
> at hand from which I can more easily and quicker see what I should do.
> But that is an entirely different matter. The present issue was about
> transcriptions of existing tablatures.
>
> Would you prefer to play Dowland's Can She Excuse from tablature or 
> from
> transcribed grand staff, David?
>
> Viele Grüße
>
> Mathias
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[roman turovsky]

In fact it is excellent. See Carl Loewe's "Die Schlanke Wasserlilie" at
http://polyhymnion.org/lieder/german.html .
It was done up in Fronimo, and the notation part was not simple.
RT

> Francesco is about to release the new version of Fronimo, which should
> be even better than the current one.  I find it very easy to use and
> (perhaps strangely for a tab program) very good for staff notation. 
>  



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Martin Shepherd]

Dear Arthur,

Francesco is about to release the new version of Fronimo, which should 
be even better than the current one.  I find it very easy to use and 
(perhaps strangely for a tab program) very good for staff notation.  I 
often use it to create scores incorporating lute tab for three or four 
lutes in different tunings plus staff notation parts for other 
instruments - being able to play it back on the computer is brilliant 
for arranging, and of course for spotting errors!  I hope you enjoy it.

Best wishes,

Martin

Arthur Ness wrote:

>Thanks for the information.  I was too busy to explore your site thoroughly.  
>Do you mean I can download the tablatures in German tablature, should I wish 
>to do so?  (I don't.  But I'd like Italian lute music in Italian tablature.  
>Not French.)
>
>You and others who have tablature notation programs have revolutionized the 
>performance and study of lute music, and I am certain many of us are very 
>grateful to you for your efforts in our behalf. I'll soon have to order a 
>registered Fronimo. The program I use now has been a disaster.
>
>Thanks for writing, Francesco. 
>
>Arthur.
>  - Original Message - 
>  From: Francesco Tribioli 
>  To: 'Arthur Ness' ; '"Mathias R=F6sel"' 
>  Cc: 'lute list' 
>  Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 1:13 PM
>  Subject: R: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
> Perrine
>
>
>  Dear Arthur,
>  > 
>  > I had to join that group in order to see Doug Towne's work.  
>  > But I cannot open the files.  Do I have to buy Fronimo to do 
>  > that?  How much does it cost?  Wouldn't it be more convenient 
>  > to have them in *.PDF format, like wayne does?
>  of course if you want to purchase a Fronimo license you are very welcome
>  8^)) but you to read and print files in Fronimo format you can install the
>  demo version. It is free of course and completely functional, beside the
>  saving commands. In this way you can set your preferences before printing
>  and choose which part of a long document to print. It is more flexible than
>  PDF because you can change the document, the only difference with the
>  registered version is that the changes are volatile.  The demo version is
>  available in the same file area of the group.
>
>  Francesco
>
>
>--
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>  
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

T-Online eMailDear Mathias,

I see what you are getting at.  Italian (and Englksh and French) keyboard music 
was called tablature (intabulatura or reduicte en tablature) because several 
parts were reduced ("tabulated") onto two staves. But that does not make it 
tablature, according to the modern definition of tablature being "finger 
notation."  

Most music at that time had a separate staff for each "voice" part.  Even 
organists were adept at playing from four separate lines of music, not even in 
"score" format. Some writers, including me, have advocated that we use the term 
"keyboard score" for these "tabulated" keyboard music instead.  Much lute music 
was conceived as part music, even ricercars and fantasias.  Later it was 
intabulated.  We do not have many surviving examplses, because 
lutenist/composers worked at erasable slates. There are even pictures of 
Renaissance composers working at these slates.  So a modern transcription from 
tablature is in effect  a restoration of the original notation.

I have no objection to guitar editions of lute music.  And that means extra 
sales from the guitar crowd to support your lute activities. And I read guitar 
notation by imagining it in the bass clef, an octave higher.  E on the treble 
clef for guitar is G for the lute in bass clef. Just reduce the key signature 
by three. (E minor for guitar = 1 sharp, and G minor for lute = 2 flats.) 
Perhaps your edition should also be done up in guitar TAB notation rather than 
French tablature. Or maybe the German Lute Society should use German 
tablature. Actually the ideal solution would be to publish on the Internet 
and use software such as Django or Fronimo to permit the purchaser to decided 
which system best suits personal  preferences. 

And it might help if you advertised your editions.  I am one of the few members 
of the GLS in the U.S.  So a vast number of lutenists over here are unaware of 
GLS publications.  And do you send out copies for review? Not just to lute 
societies, but to places like the Music Library Association. Similarly I am 
aware of publications of the Dutch Lute Society because I am one of a few 
non-Netherlanders to belong to that society.  They also need to advertise their 
publications. And transfer of funds is another problem for us over here.  To 
pay foreign dues, the bank charges are often nearly as much as the dues 
themselves. 

There was lute music on two staves much earlier than the Denkmaeler der 
Tonkunst.  And I do not know how influential that IMS conference report was.  
Byrd, Couperin, Bach, et al., for example, use two staves.  So lute music in 
pitch notation on the grand staff has always been with us.  The use of A tuning 
can be annoying to us familiar with the G tuning. But German editors 
seemtofavorit.  Even some of those Die Tabulatur editions use A tuning (another 
problem with Ophee's article; he doesn't discuss tuning, or compare the 
transcriptions with the tablature).  By the way, CNRS now issues a separate 
volume of tablature, as well as the volume of tablature and parallel 
transcription. So no longer do you need to cut and paste.

I was asked to write a response for Matanya's article, but I am too busy with 
other matters. And the subject doesn't interest me, anyway. 

Something strange happened at the end of your message.  But I can read the one 
that came via the lute list.

Greetings from Boston, Arthur.
  - Original Message - 
  From: "Mathias R=C3=B6sel" 
  To: Arthur Ness 
  Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 3:33 PM
  Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  Dear Arthur,

  sorry for my delay. Francesco has already answered your main question. IMO 
his Fronimo programme is just great. You can open a tablature and convert it 
with only one click to any other tablature type you wish French, Italian, 
"Spanish", "Neapolitan", and German are available, the latter according to Hans 
Newsidler, Hans Judenk=C3=BCnig, and Hans Gerle (wonder Germans are called 
Fritz  --  should be Hans instead). If you've found a piece in Wayne Cripps's 
large archive that has been written into Fronimo in French tab but originally 
was Italian, just convert it and there you are. Vice versa, that is mostly the 
way people make their all-too-common transcriptions into French. I prefer 
Fronimo because I can make my own formatting in order to avoid page-turns, 
which I cannot do with a pdf-file.

  As for the so-called keyboard notation, you will certainly know that things 
are a little more complicated. What we today consider keyboard, or grand, staff 
was called Italian keyboard tablature (mostly with descant and bass clefs), as 
opposed to Spanish, and German, keyboard tablatures, well into the 18th 
century. And that's what it actually is: keyboard tab. The big advantage of 
Italian

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear David,

yes, you're right, I shall speak for myself. And sorry, I should have
been more precise. What I was referring to in particular is playing solo
pieces. I for one will always prefer tablature when it comes to playing
solo pieces, on renaissance or baroque lute, no matter how exact or
appropiate transcription of CNRS or DTÖ or Erbe will be.

As for continuo, I cannot imagine anything else but playing from grand
staff, of course. And I'll be grateful if there is keyboard realization
at hand from which I can more easily and quicker see what I should do.
But that is an entirely different matter. The present issue was about
transcriptions of existing tablatures.

Would you prefer to play Dowland's Can She Excuse from tablature or from
transcribed grand staff, David?

Viele Grüße

Mathias
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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine (fwd)

[Alain Veylit]

Happy independence day everyone,
It just so happens that last week I created grand staff transcription of 
16 Rosseter pieces for Matt Wadsworth forthcoming CD recording - he 
needed it for the producer to be able to follow the music during the 
recording sessions. I used my software and did a quick and dirty job in 
less than three hours. No system of notation is perfect, but we are 
blessed in that we now have greater flexibility than ever: we can create 
multiple tablature views of the same piece, MIDI renditions, PDF copies 
in tablature and notation, MP3 renditions,  build XML trees, etc.  All 
of those representations have their own advantages and limitations, but 
they are all accessible quickly and most of the time efficiently. 
Fortunately for users, most of the price to pay for this flexibility 
lies with the software developer who needs to learn new ways of twisting 
the code - but software users also often have to adapt by installing new 
software and new fonts, make adjustments for their kind of paper sizes, 
etc.
The main difference I think between now and the early 80s, is that - 
unless you consider using a xerox machine and scissors a form of 
interactivity - users have more choices, more decisions to make, and may 
never be facing a completely finished product... This is a fascinating 
moment because together with the technological revolution, there will be 
a psychological adjustment to all our notions of what a piece of music 
is, as we learn to make better use of this newly acquired  flexibility.
Here is a sample from the Rosseter transcription in PDF format: 
http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Rosseter_almayne.pdf and 
another in MIDI format: 
http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Rosseter_almayne.mid . You 
probably have about 6 months to practice before you can compare your 
interpretation to Matt's own!
Happy playing,
Alain



Mathias Rösel wrote:

>Dear Arthur,
>
>sorry for my delay. Francesco has already answered your main question.
>IMO his Fronimo programme is just great. You can open a tablature and
>convert it with only one click to any other tablature type you wish
>French, Italian, "Spanish", "Neapolitan", and German are available, the
>latter according to Hans Newsidler, Hans Judenkünig, and Hans Gerle
>(wonder Germans are called Fritz  --  should be Hans instead). If you've
>found a piece in Wayne Cripps's large archive that has been written into
>Fronimo in French tab but originally was Italian, just convert it and
>there you are. Vice versa, that is mostly the way, I suppose, people
>make their transcriptions into French. I prefer Fronimo because I can
>make my own formatting in order to avoid page-turns, which I cannot do
>with a pdf-file.
>
>As for the so-called keyboard notation, you will certainly know that
>things are a little more complicated. What we today consider keyboard,
>or grand, staff was called Italian keyboard tablature (mostly with
>descant and bass clefs), as opposed to Spanish, and German, keyboard
>tablatures, well into the 18th century. And that's what it actually is:
>keyboard tab. The big advantage of Italian keyboard tablature is that
>signs of mensural notation are used. Thus, singers can take their lines
>from an Italian keyboard tablature just as well as an organ players, or
>virginal players, may consider and use scores as tablatures. (Although
>scores as such are probably un-HIP because up to 17th century, singers
>would sing from part-books, not scores.)
>
>As for standard transciption-notation of lute music, I seem to remember
>that I read somewhere else remarks about a far-reaching argument in the
>International Society of Music at the beginning of the 20th century.
>Apparently, grand staff was declared standard. As a result, all volumes
>of Denkmäler der Tonkunst and Erbe Deutscher Musik contain music in
>grand staffs. One advantage is that you can trace back any detail you
>wish (at least as regards Denkmäler der Tonkunst). One disadvantage is
>that much of the music cannot be played directly from score. E. g. all
>of the early German lute music is transcribed from a lute tuning in A,
>which is not in common use today. With tablature, pitch doesn't matter,
>but with grand staff it does. That's why there are thick layers of dust
>on those Denkmäler volumes, whereas in our university library you'll
>have to wait for guitar transcriptions of that lute music because
>they're constantly used.
>
>Regarding Matanya's article, please keep in mind that I'm an amateur
>lute player, not a musicologist. User, not programmer, if you will.
>Perhaps I may not be aware of all the issues that go unmentioned with
>Matanya. The reason why I have called his article well-informed is that
>it contains loads of information and recherche.
>
>The issue itself is academic, IMO. You will know that me and the other
>user folks prefer tablatures anyway. Noone of us plays from grand staff.
>My first encounter with Dowland was a copy of a copy (of a co

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine (fwd)

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Arthur,

sorry for my delay. Francesco has already answered your main question.
IMO his Fronimo programme is just great. You can open a tablature and
convert it with only one click to any other tablature type you wish
French, Italian, "Spanish", "Neapolitan", and German are available, the
latter according to Hans Newsidler, Hans Judenkünig, and Hans Gerle
(wonder Germans are called Fritz  --  should be Hans instead). If you've
found a piece in Wayne Cripps's large archive that has been written into
Fronimo in French tab but originally was Italian, just convert it and
there you are. Vice versa, that is mostly the way, I suppose, people
make their transcriptions into French. I prefer Fronimo because I can
make my own formatting in order to avoid page-turns, which I cannot do
with a pdf-file.

As for the so-called keyboard notation, you will certainly know that
things are a little more complicated. What we today consider keyboard,
or grand, staff was called Italian keyboard tablature (mostly with
descant and bass clefs), as opposed to Spanish, and German, keyboard
tablatures, well into the 18th century. And that's what it actually is:
keyboard tab. The big advantage of Italian keyboard tablature is that
signs of mensural notation are used. Thus, singers can take their lines
from an Italian keyboard tablature just as well as an organ players, or
virginal players, may consider and use scores as tablatures. (Although
scores as such are probably un-HIP because up to 17th century, singers
would sing from part-books, not scores.)

As for standard transciption-notation of lute music, I seem to remember
that I read somewhere else remarks about a far-reaching argument in the
International Society of Music at the beginning of the 20th century.
Apparently, grand staff was declared standard. As a result, all volumes
of Denkmäler der Tonkunst and Erbe Deutscher Musik contain music in
grand staffs. One advantage is that you can trace back any detail you
wish (at least as regards Denkmäler der Tonkunst). One disadvantage is
that much of the music cannot be played directly from score. E. g. all
of the early German lute music is transcribed from a lute tuning in A,
which is not in common use today. With tablature, pitch doesn't matter,
but with grand staff it does. That's why there are thick layers of dust
on those Denkmäler volumes, whereas in our university library you'll
have to wait for guitar transcriptions of that lute music because
they're constantly used.

Regarding Matanya's article, please keep in mind that I'm an amateur
lute player, not a musicologist. User, not programmer, if you will.
Perhaps I may not be aware of all the issues that go unmentioned with
Matanya. The reason why I have called his article well-informed is that
it contains loads of information and recherche.

The issue itself is academic, IMO. You will know that me and the other
user folks prefer tablatures anyway. Noone of us plays from grand staff.
My first encounter with Dowland was a copy of a copy (of a copy of a
copy...) that was made of cut and pasted tablature systems from Diana
Poulton's edition. That was in the early 80ies, if memory serves. Public
conscience of the Lutenist nation had shifted away from scientific
approaches toward a more practically informed approach. Of course, there
are CNRS editions, but what the heck if I can have a facsimile.

Now that I'm part of the editors' staff is the first time for me to
think about transcription. Things have changed again. It was a great
time when crowds of guitar players would grab lute music editions from
the shelves, but it is over. German Lute Society members amount to
shortly below 200 with constant stagnation. Most of our society's
publications stay unsold. That is why we think about a 2nd edition in
guitar staff. Guitar staff, rather than grand staff, because there are
even less harpsichord players who might be interested in lute music,
than there are baroque lute players.

Best wishes,

Mathias
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R: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Francesco Tribioli]

> Thanks for the information.  I was too busy to explore your 
> site thoroughly.  Do you mean I can download the tablatures 
> in German tablature, should I wish to do so?  (I don't.  But 
> I'd like Italian lute music in Italian tablature.  Not French.)
Yes, it is possible to convert on the fly to any style of tablature (French,
Italian, German, Spanish (Luis Milan) and Neapolitan), independently on the
choice of the typesetter.

> You and others who have tablature notation programs have 
> revolutionized the performance and study of lute music, and I 
> am certain many of us are very grateful to you for your 
> efforts in our behalf. I'll soon have to order a registered 
> Fronimo. The program I use now has been a disaster.
Thanks a lot for your kind words!
  
Francesco



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Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Tony Chalkley]

There might be a slight credential problem here.

BTW, Arthur, although I'm paid up on Django, and Italian tablature makes my
head go the wrong way up, even though it makes more sense, all credit to
Francesco for the German tablature on Fronimo - I'm too lazy to learn it,
but having it available as a function has given me pleasure.  Sorry,
Francesco, I can't afford both programs!

T

- Original Message -
From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Arthur Ness"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lute list" 
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine


> > For centuries lute music has been notated on two staves
>
> Yes, and I chart daytime stars, in my spare time.
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> - Original Message -
> From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "lute list" 
> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 10:47 AM
> Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book
of
> Perrine
>
>
> > Dear Mathias,
> >
> > I had to join that group in order to see Doug Towne's work.  But I
cannot
> open the files.  Do I have to buy Fronimo to do that?  How much does it
> cost?  Wouldn't it be more convenient to have them in *.PDF format, like
> wayne does?
> >
> > I am unaware of any discussions about publishing lute music in guitar
> notation rather than the standard lute notation on the grand staff.  NB
the
> proper term is NOT "keyboard." That's an obsession from the guitar world.
> (Perhaps disease is an exaggeration.)  For centuries lute music has
been
> notated on two staves.
> >
> > I find Matanya's article in the current issue of The Lute to be rather
> shallow.  He does not discuss all of the relevant issues, and misses some
> important milestones in the publication of lute music.  Some of the most
> significant editions are left unmentioned in his article, including the
> recent A-R Editions, CNRS,  Die Tabulatur, Ut Orpheus (Italy), etc.
> >
> > He does not identify that Russian piece, which is Dowland's Farewell
> Fantasia. Apparently he fears it might pale in comparison with Mrs.
> Poulton's work, and practically everyone else who ever transcribed it.
And
> why is there no mention of lute music in pitch notation done by Julio da
> Modena, Byrd, Couperin, Chambonieres, Vivaldi, J. S. Bach, et al.?
> >
> > To picture Gombosi's commentary of the Schrade system is a bald attempt
to
> sensationalize his point ofview. Very few editors of lute music followed
> Schrade's example, including his own pupils. And Schrade didn't even
respond
> to Gombosi's review.  One Polish edition used the Schrade method, and five
> years later the editors withdrew the edition and replaced it with one of
the
> same music done up in conventional lute notation on the grand staff.
Since
> the Gombosi review appeared (1930s) hundreds of edition of lute music have
> appeared, and surely not more than four or five use the Schrade method,
> including one horrendous edition of the Narvaez book for guitar (the
editor
> obviously knew nothing about early music).
> >
> > ajn
> > - Original Message -
> >   From: "Mathias R=F6sel"
> >   Cc: lute list
> >   Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 1:45 PM
> >   Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> Book of Perrine
> >
> >
> >   "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> >   > There are two books of lute music by Perrine (first name unknown).
> Civiol's
> >   > web page just gives the introductory text with English translation.
> >
> >   That is correct. I'm sorry for my erroneous posting. It's Douglas
Towne
> >   who reintabulated Perrine into Fronimo tab. It is accessible at
> >
> >   http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fronimo_editor/files/Tablatures/
> >
> >   > Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two
> staves.
> >   > That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation.
> >
> >   may I recommend at this occasion Matanya's very well informed article
> >   about historical pitch notation of lute music in the recent issue of
The
> >   Lute (British Lute Society's yearbook). If I got it right, arguments
are
> >   still going on as for which notation (piano vs. guitar) is more
> >   appropiate.
> >
> >   All the best,
> >
> >   Mathias
> >   --
> >
> >   To get on or off this list see list information at
> >   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> > --
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine

[Arthur Ness]

Thanks for the information.  I was too busy to explore your site thoroughly.  
Do you mean I can download the tablatures in German tablature, should I wish to 
do so?  (I don't.  But I'd like Italian lute music in Italian tablature.  Not 
French.)

You and others who have tablature notation programs have revolutionized the 
performance and study of lute music, and I am certain many of us are very 
grateful to you for your efforts in our behalf. I'll soon have to order a 
registered Fronimo. The program I use now has been a disaster.

Thanks for writing, Francesco. 

Arthur.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Francesco Tribioli 
  To: 'Arthur Ness' ; '"Mathias R=F6sel"' 
  Cc: 'lute list' 
  Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 1:13 PM
  Subject: R: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of 
Perrine


  Dear Arthur,
  > 
  > I had to join that group in order to see Doug Towne's work.  
  > But I cannot open the files.  Do I have to buy Fronimo to do 
  > that?  How much does it cost?  Wouldn't it be more convenient 
  > to have them in *.PDF format, like wayne does?
  of course if you want to purchase a Fronimo license you are very welcome
  8^)) but you to read and print files in Fronimo format you can install the
  demo version. It is free of course and completely functional, beside the
  saving commands. In this way you can set your preferences before printing
  and choose which part of a long document to print. It is more flexible than
  PDF because you can change the document, the only difference with the
  registered version is that the changes are volatile.  The demo version is
  available in the same file area of the group.

  Francesco


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