[LUTE] Re: Byrd: Earl of Ocfords march
tenor viol The Earl of Oxford's March Dd.5.21 1v ??? cittern, consort part The Earl of Oxford's March Otley 3v/1 [illegible] march luteThe Earl of Oxford's March Mynshall 7r/3 my lorde of Oxfordes Marche / [index:] my lord of oxfords marc luteThe Earl of Oxford's March 2764(2) 7v/2-8r/1 No Title luteThe Earl of Oxford's March 408/295/3 a march recorderThe Earl of Oxford's March Dd.5.21 10v ??? keyboardByrd, William The Earl of Oxford's March Nevell 13v The marche before: the battell: Brookes, No. 1343a lute, consort part The Earl of Oxford's March Dd.3.18 20r/2 The March / The Erle of Oxforde[s] Marche / [index:] E of Oxf. March. cittern The Earl of Oxford's March Dd.4.23 20r/2 Mask / T. R keyboardByrd, William The Earl of Oxford's March 5609 241-244 The Marche before the Battle / The Battle Brookes, No. 1343a keyboardByrd, William The Earl of Oxford's March Rogers 31r/2[inv] No TitleFragment, Brookes, No. 1343a keyboardByrd, William The Earl of Oxford's March FWVB 371/2-373/1 The Earl of Oxfords Marche / William Byrd. Brookes, No. 1343a luteThe Earl of Oxford's March Thysius 373v/1 La Marche. mixed consort The Earl of Oxford's March Morley 1599 No. 14 My Lord of Oxenfords maske Rainer Am 21.12.2019 um 07:00 schrieb Mikael Forsberg: Hi I am looking for lute tabs for this nice piece? Any ideas? Best regards Mikael -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Byrd: Earl of Ocfords march
Have a look at Ramesescats.co.uk//thesis/appendix4.pdf Kind regards Bernd Von meinem iPhone gesendet > Am 21.12.2019 um 07:06 schrieb Mikael Forsberg : > > Hi > > I am looking for lute tabs for this nice piece? > > Any ideas? > > Best regards Mikael > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Four Players/Six Courses ? - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 10:56 PM Subject: Re: Byrd The vihuela quartet is forming. does anyone have a good idea for a name for a vihuela quartet? Please, do not call it the vihuela quartet. ed How about ... Dr. Damano and his 4 Instruments of Mystery! Sean At 06:48 PM 8/1/2005 -0400, Arthur Ness wrote: Ed, Yes, I forgot the Valderrabano intabulations. He also intabulated a movement from Morales's Missa de beata virgine. I should say from_one_of Marles's. He also wrote two. I've wondered if you couldn't pull a Paston and use some of the intaulations for an accompanied song. Those are some of the most beautiful melodies ever conceived, and I wonder what it would be like to use the three lower parts onlute and sing the top line. (That's what Paston did with Byrd.) I and others are waiting for the debut of The First Vihuela Quartet. (What was that grup that calledthemselves The First something or other? Howard would know.g Art. - Original Message - From: Edward Martin To: Arthur Ness ; Lute Net Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Byrd Excellent note, Art! In addition to these lutenist/vihuelists, Valderrabano as well did intabulations of the Missa beata virgine; He did 2 different arrangements for 2 vihuelas. ed At 02:46 AM 8/1/2005 -0400, Arthur Ness wrote: Several lutenists intabulated movements from Josquin's Missa de beata virgine, which uses the same chant melodies: H. Newsidler (1536), Mudarra (1546), Pisador (1552), Phalese (publ.) (1552), Fuenllana (1554), Ochsenhkun (1558), Heckel (1562). Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Byrd
Originality has not always been held in such high regard, particularly during the time that the lute was so very much a part of mainstream western music, The cult of originality is really an invention of the Romantics, taking Beethoven as their model. Music became a means for individualized personal expression, using a distinctively personal musical style.. Arthur, we finally have somethinf to disagree on. Originality as an ideal certainly predated Romanticism by at least 100 years (and a lot more than that in arts other than music), and was unequivocally practiced by JSB's children and students. Romanticism simply abolished other modi operandi. RT == http://polyhymnion.org ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Roman Turovsky wrote: Originality has not always been held in such high regard, particularly during the time that the lute was so very much a part of mainstream western music, The cult of originality is really an invention of the Romantics, taking Beethoven as their model. Music became a means for individualized personal expression, using a distinctively personal musical style.. Arthur, we finally have somethinf to disagree on. Originality as an ideal certainly predated Romanticism by at least 100 years (and a lot more than that in arts other than music), and was unequivocally practiced by JSB's children and students. Romanticism simply abolished other modi operandi. RT I'm not sure it's much of a disagreement. You seem to be saying more or less the same thing: the concept of originality was always known and understood, but didn't become all-important in serious music until after Beethoven. A century before then, to take the most obvious example, Handel didn't think twice about appropriating or rewriting music by Keiser, Urio, Stradella, Telemann or himself. This was neither unusual nor a sign of moral turpitude on Handel's part, as we might think it today. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Roman Turovsky wrote: Originality has not always been held in such high regard, particularly during the time that the lute was so very much a part of mainstream western music, The cult of originality is really an invention of the Romantics, taking Beethoven as their model. Music became a means for individualized personal expression, using a distinctively personal musical style.. Arthur, we finally have somethinf to disagree on. Originality as an ideal certainly predated Romanticism by at least 100 years (and a lot more than that in arts other than music), and was unequivocally practiced by JSB's children and students. Romanticism simply abolished other modi operandi. RT I'm not sure it's much of a disagreement. You seem to be saying more or Тhe question is whose INVENTION it is. Arthur oversimplified the picture, and I, as an aficionadfo of empfindsamkeit, disagreed, as E. takes greated credit for elevation of originality to a position of Ideal. So O. certainly doesn't belong to the Romantics, who occasionally weren't sniffy about musical transvestism either, BTW. less the same thing: the concept of originality was always known and understood, but didn't become all-important in serious music until after Beethoven. A century before then, to take the most obvious example, Handel didn't think twice about appropriating or rewriting music by Keiser, Urio, Stradella, Telemann or himself. This was neither unusual nor a sign of moral turpitude on Handel's part, as we might think it today. Or may not. I've rewritten a goodly amount of other people's music, after the same fashion. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
An ingenious adaptation (arrangement) of a Ravel piano piece surely classifies as an original guitar piece, as original as a branle from the Treasures of Orpheus. It depends on how well you transform it into a guitaristic idiom. And how much more original can you get than Ravel's arrangement of Mussorgsky's piano pieces? Hi Arthur, I wish you could convince Mel Bay Pub. of that. :) I tried to explain to them that my arrangement of American folk songs, I call the piece Pioneer Suite, should be considered an original composition, especially since I worked in original material along with the traditional melodies. I think Brahm's Hungarian Dances is a good example of an original work based on traditional music. However, Mel Bay pays higher royalties on original works, so it's not in their best interest to look at it that way. I'm not really complaining, just using this as an example; there's no money in this biz anyway. :) I made an arrangement of a Ravel Pavane that came out very well, but I wouldn't feel right calling it an original work for guitar by James Edwards... It certainly is an act of creativity though, and I think good arrangements are valid on the concert stage or anywhere. I do wish Mozart had written for the guitar though. :) James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
The vihuela quartet is forming. does anyone have a good idea for a name for a vihuela quartet? Please, do not call it the vihuela quartet. ed How about ... Dr. Damano and his 4 Instruments of Mystery! Sean At 06:48 PM 8/1/2005 -0400, Arthur Ness wrote: Ed, Yes, I forgot the Valderrabano intabulations. He also intabulated a movement from Morales's Missa de beata virgine. I should say from_one_of Marles's. He also wrote two. I've wondered if you couldn't pull a Paston and use some of the intaulations for an accompanied song. Those are some of the most beautiful melodies ever conceived, and I wonder what it would be like to use the three lower parts onlute and sing the top line. (That's what Paston did with Byrd.) I and others are waiting for the debut of The First Vihuela Quartet. (What was that grup that calledthemselves The First something or other? Howard would know.g Art. - Original Message - From: Edward Martin To: Arthur Ness ; Lute Net Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Byrd Excellent note, Art! In addition to these lutenist/vihuelists, Valderrabano as well did intabulations of the Missa beata virgine; He did 2 different arrangements for 2 vihuelas. ed At 02:46 AM 8/1/2005 -0400, Arthur Ness wrote: Several lutenists intabulated movements from Josquin's Missa de beata virgine, which uses the same chant melodies: H. Newsidler (1536), Mudarra (1546), Pisador (1552), Phalese (publ.) (1552), Fuenllana (1554), Ochsenhkun (1558), Heckel (1562). Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Byrd
uh, OK. ed At 07:56 PM 8/1/2005 -0700, Sean Smith wrote: The vihuela quartet is forming. does anyone have a good idea for a name for a vihuela quartet? Please, do not call it the vihuela quartet. ed How about ... Dr. Damano and his 4 Instruments of Mystery! Sean At 06:48 PM 8/1/2005 -0400, Arthur Ness wrote: Ed, Yes, I forgot the Valderrabano intabulations. He also intabulated a movement from Morales's Missa de beata virgine. I should say from_one_of Marles's. He also wrote two. I've wondered if you couldn't pull a Paston and use some of the intaulations for an accompanied song. Those are some of the most beautiful melodies ever conceived, and I wonder what it would be like to use the three lower parts onlute and sing the top line. (That's what Paston did with Byrd.) I and others are waiting for the debut of The First Vihuela Quartet. (What was that grup that calledthemselves The First something or other? Howard would know.g Art. - Original Message - From: Edward Martin To: Arthur Ness ; Lute Net Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Byrd Excellent note, Art! In addition to these lutenist/vihuelists, Valderrabano as well did intabulations of the Missa beata virgine; He did 2 different arrangements for 2 vihuelas. ed At 02:46 AM 8/1/2005 -0400, Arthur Ness wrote: Several lutenists intabulated movements from Josquin's Missa de beata virgine, which uses the same chant melodies: H. Newsidler (1536), Mudarra (1546), Pisador (1552), Phalese (publ.) (1552), Fuenllana (1554), Ochsenhkun (1558), Heckel (1562). Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
Dear Stewart, The Spagna by Francesco is a different animal from most spagnas that I have seen. A. Ness found it in two mss.: The Cavalcanti which dates from, I believe, the 2nd half of the 16th century and a Florence ms. of unstated date which lacks the supporting lute part. Whether the latter had been played w/ the original tenor or the filled-out tenor is uncertain but there are many other characteristics that set it apart from previous Spagnas. In Otto Gombosi's study of the Capirola he offers two more spagnas and each of these abound in ficta, variety of tempos (slow sections beside bursts of speed), division into 3 (and 5!) and single line 2nd parts. These mirror other contrapunti that show up in various late 15th cent. mss. on other tenors from songs, mass movements and motets. Beside these Francesco's Spagna seems downright Victorian --and would never frighten any horses. There are many contrapunti in the Cavalcanti, mostly divisions over chord progressions and, taken as a whole they may have been offered as didactic material. It is also the unique source for FdM's Canon as well. What I'm getting at is that this spagna was written for a very different audience than those of the previous century and was probably seen as an antique fashion but useful for learning an art of contrapunti. Certainly w/ the filled out chords there is no need of a plectrum whereas the earlier tenor/contra style would have a very striking dual line texture. Sean On Jul 29, 2005, at 11:38 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Sean, Thanks for your message. It's very hard to generalise, but sometimes I think we exaggerate the linear aspect of 15th and early 16th music. Even in the age of polyphony, composers still had their ears on what was going on vertically. An example I find particularly interesting is how Francesco da Milano treats La Spagna in his setting for two lutes. I imagine this is similar to the 16th-century idea of a tenorista accompanying some flashy descanting by a virtuoso Pietrobono-type character. Although the Spagna melody is always present in the Lute 2 part, it is not always easy to pick it out, because it isn't always the highest note of the chord. Thus the Spagna tenor is transformed into a series of chords, and the vertical is more apparent than the horizontal, at least to my ears. I concede that one's ability to pick out the notes of La Spagna is determined by how well one is familiar with that tenor. All the best, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 2:24 PM Subject: Byrd - horizontal and vertical Hi Stewart, The note to Gary about linear vs vertical is very interesting. I've been working w/ a lot of 3-part vocal music intabs from the 15th century and it's usually practical and doable to bring out the cantus (or tenor) but if the tenor and countertenor(s) start crossing excessively then the lower voices start getting vertical again. But even this benefits from picking your lines and keeping them linear, dropping back (the opposite of accenting --a term for this?) others where necessary. Entry points are wonderful for recalibrating the ear. I've noticed Spinacino and Fridolin Sicher (St Gall organ book) will often add divisions or a figure to accent lines. And it's very helpful to pencil, circle and arrow various voices --often w/ different colors-- to remember what is going on and to keep things fresh. all the best from SF Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: The Spagna by Francesco is a different animal from most spagnas that I have seen. a while ago, Stewart and me had a little chat about the Spagna. Stewart, I hope you won't mind me forwarding your mail to the list? Stewart wrote: The important thing about La Spagna is that it is essentially a tenor line, not a cantus. When it was commonly used at the end of the 15th century, shawm players would have improvised above and below the Spagna melody. Presumably that is why Francesco da Milano treated it the way he did. At least, I suspect his Lute 2 part was originally for three instruments, and he simply intabulated them for the lute. Then he added Lute 1 as a sort of bastarda part, running through the texture as the viola bastarda would have done later on in the 16th century. A few years ago I spotted something very interesting. All the Spagna settings I know have the Spagna melody somewhere in the middle of the texture as a tenor, apart from Diego Ortiz, who uses it as a bass line. I always think of this as something which shows how music changed during the 16th century. In the 15th and early 16th century composers often built their compositions around slow-moving tenor lines. Ortiz wanted to use the Spagna melody, but by the 1550's music was composed more in relation to the bass, with the emphasis more on harmony than polyphony, so he used La Spagna as a bass, not a tenor, and his bass viol divisions were conceived above that bass line. To that extent Ortiz has more in common with Christopher Simpson 100 years later, than he has with his immediate predecessors. Best wishes, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
On Jul 31, 2005, at 6:45 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: The Spagna by Francesco is a different animal from most spagnas that I have seen. a while ago, Stewart and me had a little chat about the Spagna. Stewart, I hope you won't mind me forwarding your mail to the list? Stewart wrote: The important thing about La Spagna is that it is essentially a tenor line, not a cantus. When it was commonly used at the end of the 15th century, shawm players would have improvised above and below the Spagna melody. Presumably that is why Francesco da Milano treated it the way he did. At least, I suspect his Lute 2 part was originally for three instruments, and he simply intabulated them for the lute. Then he added Lute 1 as a sort of bastarda part, running through the texture as the viola bastarda would have done later on in the 16th century. Agreed. Albeit lute players, lutenists, organists and others, also improvised over tenors. A few years ago I spotted something very interesting. All the Spagna settings I know have the Spagna melody somewhere in the middle of the texture as a tenor, apart from Diego Ortiz, who uses it as a bass line. I always think of this as something which shows how music changed during the 16th century. In the 15th and early 16th century composers often built their compositions around slow-moving tenor lines. Ortiz wanted to use the Spagna melody, but by the 1550's music was composed more in relation to the bass, with the emphasis more on harmony than polyphony, so he used La Spagna as a bass, not a tenor, And here is where I think the idea of tenor diverges. FdM's took the earlier tenor and made it into an SATB-type tenor and Ortiz was still using it in the earlier sense. FdM's chord progression resembles the current taste in resembling the passemezzo antico in choice of chords. If one were to build chords over Ortiz' bass line they would have been out of fashion and besides they were a note progression that would have been familiar. In lack of concordance and late date, one could even wonder if the filled out chords were really FdM's construction. But I won't ;^) and his bass viol divisions were conceived above that bass line. To that extent Ortiz has more in common with Christopher Simpson 100 years later, than he has with his immediate predecessors. In filling out those chords so has Francesco. all the best, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
Does anybody have any information on theorbo music from the book of Charles Hurel? Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd - horizontal and vertical
Alain Veylit [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Does anybody have any information on theorbo music from the book of Charles Hurel? why, yes. I could copy the preface of Minkoff's edition and post. But I'd prefer more specific question. Would you mind to elaborate? -- Regards Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Transliteration (not mentioned in this thread), the rewriting of words into a different language using exact definitions or lettering. Not always an accurate reflection of meaning. Wrong. Transliteration is rewriting of words into a different alphabet, essentially the same thing as transcription, KAK NAPRIMER VOT ETO (in transliterated Russian). Mea Culpa, that is what I meant. I should have said alphabet rather than language. But I beg to differ that it is the same as transcription. There are languages that can transliterated letter for letter, but still don't correspond letter for letter with the sounds of the target language. I know you don't think much of Celtic civiliation (and in fact have the impression that you think the pairing of those words is an oxymoron). I don't have the font on my computer to type the Celtic letters, but there are various rules of pronounciation (particularly paired consonants) that aren't clear when transliterated. The easiest examples are in proper name (as that way we don't get into the language itself). In the Celtic the character for b is pronounced as such, and the character for h is also (when hard, and beginning a word). The Tranliteration from the Celtic font for the name of the actress Siobhan Mckenna is just that - with the bh, but the pronounciation of that pair is v (sort of). So she spells her name in transliteration, but not as a transcription. The transcription would be Shivahn. (Yes, the s sound varies with the following letter Sean is pronounced Shawn. (Annd my own last name, Murphy, some has been cross tranlitered and transcribed - in some way I can't figure yet from the alphabets - from Mercou to Murphy). I'll not be told by the late Stanley Sadie how I should use words, and I doubt that he would have disagreed. Sadie was an excellent writer, and you might learn a few things from him. I agree, and that was an unfortunately worded comment. The intent was not to deny Sadie but to emphasize that he might have been the first to acknowledge that not all definitions that are generally correct are perfect in all situations. In any dictionary one must address the audience and maintain brevity (which I haven't done here). Not all nuances can be addressed. I have been working for weeks on defining Force, and other things, for some things I'm writing. Easy, F=ma, but how do I define it in terms the general player can understand without offending the physicists. Technical definition: That which pushes, pulls, compresses, distends or distorts in any way; that which cahnges the state of rest or state of motion of a body. Get into the formulae for string calculations and you get into force as tension force, and some include the force of gravity - which seems irrelevant. Yet we mesure tension force in terms of pounds, kilos and Newtons. Each involves an acceleration component. No sweat, they cancel outin the math when we include the opposing force. My problem is to be complete without being windy for the book I'm working on. Sadie's problem with the musical dictionary was to be as complete as he could for the purpose of his dictionary (and the audience). My comment, that seemed to denigrate Sadie's work, was ill advised. But note that I said he wouldn't have disagreed with the idea that not all definitions (including his) are complete. JWM To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Charles, This raises the interesting question as to what is an arrangement. My harp ensemble is preparing for a Christmas perfomance (among other things, but this is a pay for our supper performance for the Church that allows us to use their parish house for our practice). One piece we intend to play is Noel Nouvolet (The March of the Three Kings), a carol from Provence of about the 18th C, and also a march piece used by many classical composers as a component. I have an arrangement (copyright) for the double strung harp - the ensemble has an arrangement from another source for single course harps. My arrangement (written by a friend of mine, so the question is moot as she would give me permission) starts the piece in A minor, then modulates the piece, and the other arrangement starts at the key of the modulation and goes on rather boringly. The JSHE (Jersey Shore Harp Ensemble) is comfortable with the boring one. If I, as I will do, transcribe (yeah, transcribe) the 2X harp arrangement into three harp parts, one hand each (the limitations of my ensemble). Then set the modulation of the 2X piece (and the second hand of the 2X harp as a line for one group), and take the bass line of the other arrangement (with the glissandos my fellow harpist love, and I hate), then top that with the variations from my friend's 2X version, then close with a walk off of the A minor - - will I have made an arrangement? The variations, the modulation, and the 2nd harp part would all be from Beth's 2X arrangement, but the base structure would be from the traditional (and I think copyright, but I can't find my sheet music at the moment) arrangement. There will be original (to me) interplay between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd harps, as well as the use of the sound of each arrangement - both of which are written for single harps. I'm not really seeking an answer, and I certainly have no intention of seeking copyright. Just seeking thoughts on what is an original arrangement. The lute, with the base piece and divisions is a prime example. We all know that adding a few divisions to a theme doesn't a copyright make, but where is the line. A matter that comes up less with the lute than with some other arrangements due to the lute's long history and the form of play. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
This depends on whether you are able to extract the original music from Bunting's icing. Not an easy task. RT No way, that icing was on a cake that had been baked over time. For some pieces there are other collections that have the originals as played by the people who had listened to them and remembered them, but even then one would depend on their memory. But nothing was ever transcribed (another meaning of the word, to take the performance and write it down) at the time as O'Carolan, and most of his brethren, were itinerant. O'Carolan is unique in one way, all his pieces called Planxty someone or other (a word of no known meaning, although some guesses) were writtten (in his head) and played on the spot for his sponsor of the night. That is the only way we know that he wrote them rather than playing a traditional piece to new words. That is documented contemporarily. But yet, just as you can with your knowledge of the music of your heritage, and the music of the baroque lute (I got the impression you were a bit more baroque than renaissance - but if I'm wrong it still applies) find a sense of the music by a feel for what it should be, one can probably strip the icing from Bunting's cake with a knowledge of the capabilities of the harps of the time. But there are other sources as well, I have books of the whistle songs and airs of the time. They have, of neccessity, no icing (ornaments, yes, icing no). It all comes back to the sense of what is ancient and what is modern in music, Occam's Razor in a musical sense. Whether is is possible to make the sounds of old is a question I can't answer. The only thing we know is that the sounds were there. BTW, with no desire to raise an old issue I have found contemporary documentation of the early Celtic wire strung harps in the British Isles. But you were correct, they weren't drawn steel wires. They were brass or bronze (both of which I can yet buy today from string makers). The heavier strings were coated with a heavier metal (gold or silver), but not by electroplating obviously. The basic Celtic harp can be dated to about 700 AD, and probably earlier. It wasn't a common instrument, the harpers had a sponsor and status. Forget the Brian Boru or the Queen Anne that have been called early, they have been shown to be later, but it is clear from the carved relics and the written accounts that they were there, and important to the courts of the time. JWM To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Nancy, I think you've found the crux of the issue. This is an interesting case, but not completely relevant to the early music we are discussing on this list. From what I have read the case had a lot to do with the money Hyperion made selling the CDs and didn't pay to Dr. Sawkins, who reconstruction the music and made a playable edition. I don't think Dowland and Weiss had the same royalty driven concept of ownership. Nancy Carlin I'm not sure if there is a sub-set of international copyright law that might say that one can't use someone else's work for his own profit. Let us take an early music example, you (or I, or any one else) expend a lot of effort to make an early document readable. Oops, just remembered an old joke The junior monk goes to the archives for the original documents. The senior monks wonder why - after all we have been copying them for hundreds of years. The junior says that he just wants to see the originals. Many hours later he misses dinner and they go to look for him. They find him deep in the archives beating his head on the table and crying the word was celebrate. If someone expends the time and effort, pro bono, to extract the music from a medieval document (which as we all know are hard to read) - and then passes that on to the commmunity, again pro bono. Then does anyone have the right to take that work product and use it for commercial purposes without compensating the author. The law might say that once the author has put in the public domain without copyright it is fair game to be copied and published, then charge a fee for the publishing. The fee for the publishing is valid, under any law, as there are costs involved in the preparation and marketing. This is a sticky one, I'm reminded of Bill Gates' purchase for $60,000 of Seattle Systems' DOS. Gates took a risk as to whether it would sell (but not much, as he'd already sold the OS to IBM for the PC). The Compaq suit allowed other computer companies to reverse engineer PC BIOS, and the world was opened to M$. The lad who had developed the original system was still in Seattle living on his $60,000 - and to the best of my knowledge still is. OK, I am a dedicated capitalist, and believe that the winner should take the prize. In the M$ case there is no obligation, the man sold his product free and clear. But a gentleman would have made sure that his benefactor (foolish as he may have been to sell full rights) was taken care of. As to the music, the same applies. Many of you on this list are European, and as such have a negative view of capitalism. You have seen a modern capitalism that isn't the one that grew the US. There used to be moral values there, not because they were such gentlemen but for the practical reasont that they wanted the reputation of dealing fairly to enhance future deals. Actually I've known, and still know, a number of them. And most do want to provide for their customers and developers. But the speed of today's celebrity, and the stasis of the Robber Barons over a hundred years ago, have hidden the number of good people, good gentlemen (and ladies) who have run fair businesses for ages. There should have been no court case between Hyperion and Dr. Sawkins, Hyperion should have come to Dr. Sawkins and said we are using your work to make playable CDs, we aren't sure if they will sell. But if they do sell we would like to compensate you with a piece of the action. That isn't a gift, it is good business practice which ensures that later work products of pro bono transcribers will be available to them. Good business practice, don't cut off your first supplier if you want more. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Right on Gary, And that is why we have dynamics. I leave yours below intentionally, then comment. Dear Stewart; Regarding the situation you described of two viols playing: __a__c__d___ and __d__c__a___ - it occurs to me that unless the timbres of the two viols are very different the listener may indeed hear the passage as __d__c__d___ __f__f___ as per the lute intabulation. You are quite right Gary, and I run into this ofen on the double strung harp where I am playing both left and right hand in the same octave. Sometimes I don't know here the melody is. But only if I'm not playing the notes according to the key signature, or am not making the melody dynamics clear. The same applies to the lute. beginner as I am. As to the viols, each should know where the line runs, even if the instruments are perfectly matched. The players should make the distinction with their bows, or else let it just be a sequence of notes rather than a piece of music. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cautionary tale (was RE: Byrd)
Stewart, You seem to be a true coward, when the shootin starts you head for cover, when it's all over you come out and proclaim victory. You also have a real insicurity about your achivements, posting some riduculous paper on something that supposedidly has something to do with me? I suggest in future writtings you limit the amount of content, or at least lure your readers in more. I usually like to read slanderous material conserning myself but really couldn't get past the first sentance. MT -Original Message- From: Stuart LeBlanc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:50:50 -0500 Subject: cautionary tale (was RE: Byrd) A wino gets kicked out of a bar because he did not behave properly. He hangs around the bar for months and months, hoping that someday, someone will apologize to him and invite him to patronize the bar again. He admits that he failed to behave properly, even after he had been warned, but he thinks he should be readmitted because of his feeling that those who kicked him out were not very courteous. However, he tells everybody who will listen that the employees and management and the general atmosphere of the bar are terrible and that smart customers should go to a nearby bar that is smaller and much more relaxed and friendly. He also tells everybody who will listen that he is still hanging around the terrible bar because he wants to help improve the policies and management of the bar and he wants to warn and help protect new patrons who may not realize what a terrible bar it really is. The poor wino correctly realizes that if he is regarded as just another noisy human derelict, few will listen to him and even fewer will be willing to support his sad crusade. So, he spends much of his time trying to convince others that he is very reasonable, very talented, very well educated and very respectable. But nevertheless, many of those who had briefly listened to him soon become annoyed and bored by his twisted logic and his endless, whining complaints. He easily gets into numerous arguments and fights with some of the employees and patrons of the bar. Of course, he always blames the others for starting the arguments and fights. After several months, the wino announces that he will not ever go back into the terrible bar again, even if the bar management announces a very generous general amnesty and promises him free drinks and free snacks for life. Then, when he is questioned about why he still hangs around the bar after making this announcement, he becomes frantic as he searches for some kind of plausible answer. He kicks himself for making it so easy for his critics to attack the fragile logic that forms the very foundation of his sad crusade. After many hours of frustration, he finally decides that publicly attacking one of his critics with very vulgar language is the only way he can respond. But, after doing so, he sobers up a little and sadly realizes that his vulgar language will probably cause more and more observers to begin regarding him as just another noisy human derelict. After several more months, the poor wino grows tired of all of the stupid people who will not listen to his arguments or support his crusade and all of his ignorant critics who always seem to push the appropriate buttons. He thinks more and more about a grand slam triple whammy that he could easily accomplish without any assistance from anyone. With just one bold, but simple stroke, he could punish all of them by moving to a far away city and not ever communicating with any of them again. Then, the stupid fools would no longer have the benefit of his wisdom, his ignorant critics would not have him to kick around any more and he would have an opportunity to get a new life and live happily ever after. He would also have time to start playing lute again, because he would no longer need to use all of his spare time to write articles for lutenet. HAPPY DAYS would be back again ! He shakes his head and wonders why he did not think of this simple solution much sooner. But typically, like many poor winos before him, he can not decide about which city he should move to or the best time for him to move... (adapted from http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/essay/whino.html) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Byrd Well, two weeks of hell are over. It takes a broad mind, and humble person to admit they made a mistake. I truely wish Auther Ness would have risin to the occasion. but he didn't. Putting us all through this I would have met him half way. On the other hand to all who wrote to me privately, I'm, glad I could intertain you for the past week or so. I hope this incourages people to think for themselves on this list. I'm told by my other lute friends
Re: Byrd
RT, I both agree and disagree, which makes me indecisive on the face of it. Nothing is original, and everything is. I just bought the Bunting book facsimile (1840) that transcribes, and arranges for piano forte, the harp music of Ireland - in order to preserve it. I have some of the same pieces from 1625 as lute tab from other originals. What is an arrangement, and what is a song? For once I am in agreement with you. Scarlatti and Bach did original work in reworking (arranging) earlier works. But if I take the Bunting piano arrangements and return them to harp am I original? I don't think so, but it is a puzzlement. I think we need new words, actually not new words but a different sense of the old words in context. I really enjoy playing the Sarmantica XVI that you lured me to by speaking of parallel fifths (not many in there, but it got me there) as well as other Sarmanticas. So now let us have a test of words, and this isn't directed only to you, it is to the list. I think we agree on arrangements as originals. I take the tab notation of Sarmantica XVI and put it into staff notation for harp (or piano, or whatever). I have transcibed it for another medium, but I've done nothing original. Now I take the voices in the lute piece and separate them a bit, using the fact that the harpist can play more voices than the lutenist can, I'm still not original, but I am arranging the same piece for a different instrument. Yet the arrangement doesn't qualify as an original. Now I include the lute piece into an orchestral score as a theme across the instruments - now I'm original. What is original and what is derivative in music is a difficult decision. I once had a project to put A.E. Housman to music, but only wrote one melody (for Moonlit Sheep). I came up with a unique chord progression that made my melody perfect, then found the same chord progression in the Theme from Exodus (the movie) which was written later. There are only so many ways you can use notes in a melody, and only so many chord progressions - but there are an infinite number of ways to make a song. Therein lies the problem, and the solution. If the sense of the music is the same then it is a transcription (or translation). If the sense is similar, but enhanced with additional instruments then it is an arrangement. If the sense changes then it is original. On the lute the inversions of chords aren't easily available, unless one has the fingers of rubberman. But on the harp the inversions are easy. So if I change the inversion of the chord the other guy wrote for the piece am I arranging, or just making easy fingering for the same piece. I don't know, and I don't really want to know. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
This is a silly thread, words are wonderful but they also can have various interpretations. To paraphrase The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, we don't need no stinkin' dictionaries. Transcription, a copy from one form to another - or a direct copy to another medium. From the roots trans, meaning approximately cross, scribe meaning write. It is an automatic form. Transliteration (not mentioned in this thread), the rewriting of words into a different language using exact definitions or lettering. Not always an accurate reflection of meaning. Wrong. Transliteration is rewriting of words into a different alphabet, essentially the same thing as transcription, KAK NAPRIMER VOT ETO (in transliterated Russian). I'll not be told by the late Stanley Sadie how I should use words, and I doubt that he would have disagreed. Sadie was an excellent writer, and you might learn a few things from him. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
This is a silly thread, words are wonderful but they also can have various interpretations. To paraphrase The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, we don't need no stinkin' dictionaries. Transcription, a copy from one form to another - or a direct copy to another medium. From the roots trans, meaning approximately cross, scribe meaning write. It is an automatic form. Transliteration (not mentioned in this thread), the rewriting of words into a different language using exact definitions or lettering. Not always an accurate reflection of meaning. Wrong. Transliteration is rewriting of words into a different alphabet, essentially the same thing as transcription, KAK NAPRIMER VOT ETO (in transliterated Russian), no more English than the original ÐÐÐ ÐÐÐÐ ÐÐÐÐ ÐТÐ. I'll not be told by the late Stanley Sadie how I should use words, and I doubt that he would have disagreed. Sadie was an excellent writer, and you might learn a few things from him. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Byrd
Dear Jon, a propos arrangements, you might be interested to look at the recent court case between Hyperion Records (UK) and Dr Sawkins concerning the ownership of musical copyright of a performing edition of Lalande, whose music is out of copyright. The UK Law lords agreed with Dr Sawkins, on appeal, that work involved in creating an arrangement can be sufficient to consider it an 'original' piece of work. Hyperion's URL is www.Hyperion.co.uk but the full transcript of the judgement is also available. regards Charles -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 July 2005 16:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Roman Turovsky Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Byrd RT, I both agree and disagree, which makes me indecisive on the face of it. Nothing is original, and everything is. I just bought the Bunting book facsimile (1840) that transcribes, and arranges for piano forte, the harp music of Ireland - in order to preserve it. I have some of the same pieces from 1625 as lute tab from other originals. What is an arrangement, and what is a song? For once I am in agreement with you. Scarlatti and Bach did original work in reworking (arranging) earlier works. But if I take the Bunting piano arrangements and return them to harp am I original? I don't think so, but it is a puzzlement. I think we need new words, actually not new words but a different sense of the old words in context. I really enjoy playing the Sarmantica XVI that you lured me to by speaking of parallel fifths (not many in there, but it got me there) as well as other Sarmanticas. So now let us have a test of words, and this isn't directed only to you, it is to the list. I think we agree on arrangements as originals. I take the tab notation of Sarmantica XVI and put it into staff notation for harp (or piano, or whatever). I have transcibed it for another medium, but I've done nothing original. Now I take the voices in the lute piece and separate them a bit, using the fact that the harpist can play more voices than the lutenist can, I'm still not original, but I am arranging the same piece for a different instrument. Yet the arrangement doesn't qualify as an original. Now I include the lute piece into an orchestral score as a theme across the instruments - now I'm original. What is original and what is derivative in music is a difficult decision. I once had a project to put A.E. Housman to music, but only wrote one melody (for Moonlit Sheep). I came up with a unique chord progression that made my melody perfect, then found the same chord progression in the Theme from Exodus (the movie) which was written later. There are only so many ways you can use notes in a melody, and only so many chord progressions - but there are an infinite number of ways to make a song. Therein lies the problem, and the solution. If the sense of the music is the same then it is a transcription (or translation). If the sense is similar, but enhanced with additional instruments then it is an arrangement. If the sense changes then it is original. On the lute the inversions of chords aren't easily available, unless one has the fingers of rubberman. But on the harp the inversions are easy. So if I change the inversion of the chord the other guy wrote for the piece am I arranging, or just making easy fingering for the same piece. I don't know, and I don't really want to know. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
I both agree and disagree, which makes me indecisive on the face of it. Nothing is original, and everything is. I just bought the Bunting book facsimile (1840) that transcribes, and arranges for piano forte, the harp music of Ireland - in order to preserve it. I have some of the same pieces from 1625 as lute tab from other originals. What is an arrangement, and what is a song? For once I am in agreement with you. Scarlatti and Bach did original work in reworking (arranging) earlier works. But if I take the Bunting piano arrangements and return them to harp am I original? I don't think so, This depends on whether you are able to extract the original music from Bunting's icing. Not an easy task. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Byrd
This is an interesting case, but not completely relevant to the early music we are discussing on this list. From what I have read the case had a lot to do with the money Hyperion made selling the CDs and didn't pay to Dr. Sawkins, who reconstruction the music and made a playable edition. I don't think Dowland and Weiss had the same royalty driven concept of ownership. Nancy Carlin a propos arrangements, you might be interested to look at the recent court case between Hyperion Records (UK) and Dr Sawkins concerning the ownership of musical copyright of a performing edition of Lalande, whose music is out of copyright. The UK Law lords agreed with Dr Sawkins, on appeal, that work involved in creating an arrangement can be sufficient to consider it an 'original' piece of work. Hyperion's URL is www.Hyperion.co.uk but the full transcript of the judgement is also available. regards Charles -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 July 2005 16:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Roman Turovsky Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Byrd RT, I both agree and disagree, which makes me indecisive on the face of it. Nothing is original, and everything is. I just bought the Bunting book facsimile (1840) that transcribes, and arranges for piano forte, the harp music of Ireland - in order to preserve it. I have some of the same pieces from 1625 as lute tab from other originals. What is an arrangement, and what is a song? For once I am in agreement with you. Scarlatti and Bach did original work in reworking (arranging) earlier works. But if I take the Bunting piano arrangements and return them to harp am I original? I don't think so, but it is a puzzlement. I think we need new words, actually not new words but a different sense of the old words in context. I really enjoy playing the Sarmantica XVI that you lured me to by speaking of parallel fifths (not many in there, but it got me there) as well as other Sarmanticas. So now let us have a test of words, and this isn't directed only to you, it is to the list. I think we agree on arrangements as originals. I take the tab notation of Sarmantica XVI and put it into staff notation for harp (or piano, or whatever). I have transcibed it for another medium, but I've done nothing original. Now I take the voices in the lute piece and separate them a bit, using the fact that the harpist can play more voices than the lutenist can, I'm still not original, but I am arranging the same piece for a different instrument. Yet the arrangement doesn't qualify as an original. Now I include the lute piece into an orchestral score as a theme across the instruments - now I'm original. What is original and what is derivative in music is a difficult decision. I once had a project to put A.E. Housman to music, but only wrote one melody (for Moonlit Sheep). I came up with a unique chord progression that made my melody perfect, then found the same chord progression in the Theme from Exodus (the movie) which was written later. There are only so many ways you can use notes in a melody, and only so many chord progressions - but there are an infinite number of ways to make a song. Therein lies the problem, and the solution. If the sense of the music is the same then it is a transcription (or translation). If the sense is similar, but enhanced with additional instruments then it is an arrangement. If the sense changes then it is original. On the lute the inversions of chords aren't easily available, unless one has the fingers of rubberman. But on the harp the inversions are easy. So if I change the inversion of the chord the other guy wrote for the piece am I arranging, or just making easy fingering for the same piece. I don't know, and I don't really want to know. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
RE: Byrd
No Nancy, I don't think this is right. My understanding of this particular case is that Hyperion HAD paid Sawkins an agreed fee to prepare the new edition but that he then wanted new performance fees ie fees payable every time a concert was put on using this edition. It was this that led to the case. I understand that Sawkins was asked by counsel if his edition contained any new music, which under existing practice would have naturally resulted in some fee, but he replied in the negative. Extracts from the court transcript may be found on Hyperion's website and I do urge any who have any interest to read the details. You may also not be aware that Hyperion is not a giant media company and employs under 30 people (or did - I don't know if any have had to be laid off as a result of this); it has been extremely adventurous in exploring little known early works and composers and has much support from musicians within the UK. The financial burden may well cut this output - to our loss. regards and best wishes Martyn PS In case you wondered: I've absolutely nothing to do with Hyperion but just worry about the possible wider effects on early music performance, at least here in the UK.
Re: Byrd
Well, two weeks of hell are over. It takes a broad mind, and humble person to admit they made a mistake. I truely wish Auther Ness would have risin to the occasion. but he didn't. Putting us all through this I would have met him half way. On the other hand to all who wrote to me privately, I'm, glad I could intertain you for the past week or so. I hope this incourages people to think for themselves on this list. I'm told by my other lute friends that the pompousness, and pettiness, doesn't exist in the world of lute, off this lutenet. Most of my lute freinds don't subscribe to this list and are constanly advising me to get off of it. I have not gone to the LSA for the past 3 years in fear of actually running in to anyone on this list. Although I'm sure I'll run into MO this fall when Barto plays at the GFA, in Cleveland. Fun,fun,fun In the mean time, Wayne has given me the choice of not insulting Auther Ness, or being kicked off the lutenet. Being someone who can't keep a promise like this I've choosen the later. I will not let the few pompous thugs, on this list, ruin my love, of all things lute. This has really been a soap opera. I'm sure my giutar freinds have had simalir experiances but I reallty think this takes the cake. Stewart, I know you may not have fond feelings for me, but to finally clear this up means allot, at least to me. Thanks. Everyone, including you thugs, stay safe, and keep on plucking. John Haskins/ Michael thames -Original Message- From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:37:06 +0100 Subject: Byrd Dear Lutesn2, As far as I know, William Byrd did not compose any music specifically for the lute. He wrote lots of church music and secular music for voices, lots of keyboard music, and songs and instrumental pieces for viols. Some of Byrd's music was intabulated for the lute, notably in solo lute arrangements by Francis Cutting. There is a large number of rather literal intabulations without the cantus part, which survive in the lute books of Edward Paston. One of those lute books is the largest single source of music by Byrd, and contains many intabulations of consort songs, some of which survive only in tablature, frustratingly lacking the cantus. It has been shown that Paston also had some complete intabulations (cantus not omitted) in his library, but this music is now lost. These ghosts are mainly intabulations of 3-part pieces, many of them by Byrd, including Byrd's three-part fantasies. It is easy enough to recreate these lost intabulations, as long as the music survives complete elsewhere (i.e. in a staff notation source). Over the years I have occasionally heard people say, If only Byrd had written for the lute. He didn't, but there is nothing to stop us following in the footsteps of Cutting and Paston, and making our own intabulations of Byrd's music. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 2:57 AM Subject: Byrd Dear Mr. McCoy, If MT is incorrect in saying Byrd wrote no lute music. Is Doug Smith incorrect as well? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. Get your own free AIM(R) Mail account and become eligible to win daily prizes, ending July 30, 2005. One lucky grand prize winner will even drive away with a 2005 MINI(R) Cooper S. http://cdn.channel.aol.com/aimmail/aim_mail.html?mail_footer
cautionary tale (was RE: Byrd)
A wino gets kicked out of a bar because he did not behave properly. He hangs around the bar for months and months, hoping that someday, someone will apologize to him and invite him to patronize the bar again. He admits that he failed to behave properly, even after he had been warned, but he thinks he should be readmitted because of his feeling that those who kicked him out were not very courteous. However, he tells everybody who will listen that the employees and management and the general atmosphere of the bar are terrible and that smart customers should go to a nearby bar that is smaller and much more relaxed and friendly. He also tells everybody who will listen that he is still hanging around the terrible bar because he wants to help improve the policies and management of the bar and he wants to warn and help protect new patrons who may not realize what a terrible bar it really is. The poor wino correctly realizes that if he is regarded as just another noisy human derelict, few will listen to him and even fewer will be willing to support his sad crusade. So, he spends much of his time trying to convince others that he is very reasonable, very talented, very well educated and very respectable. But nevertheless, many of those who had briefly listened to him soon become annoyed and bored by his twisted logic and his endless, whining complaints. He easily gets into numerous arguments and fights with some of the employees and patrons of the bar. Of course, he always blames the others for starting the arguments and fights. After several months, the wino announces that he will not ever go back into the terrible bar again, even if the bar management announces a very generous general amnesty and promises him free drinks and free snacks for life. Then, when he is questioned about why he still hangs around the bar after making this announcement, he becomes frantic as he searches for some kind of plausible answer. He kicks himself for making it so easy for his critics to attack the fragile logic that forms the very foundation of his sad crusade. After many hours of frustration, he finally decides that publicly attacking one of his critics with very vulgar language is the only way he can respond. But, after doing so, he sobers up a little and sadly realizes that his vulgar language will probably cause more and more observers to begin regarding him as just another noisy human derelict. After several more months, the poor wino grows tired of all of the stupid people who will not listen to his arguments or support his crusade and all of his ignorant critics who always seem to push the appropriate buttons. He thinks more and more about a grand slam triple whammy that he could easily accomplish without any assistance from anyone. With just one bold, but simple stroke, he could punish all of them by moving to a far away city and not ever communicating with any of them again. Then, the stupid fools would no longer have the benefit of his wisdom, his ignorant critics would not have him to kick around any more and he would have an opportunity to get a new life and live happily ever after. He would also have time to start playing lute again, because he would no longer need to use all of his spare time to write articles for lutenet. HAPPY DAYS would be back again ! He shakes his head and wonders why he did not think of this simple solution much sooner. But typically, like many poor winos before him, he can not decide about which city he should move to or the best time for him to move... (adapted from http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/essay/whino.html) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Byrd Well, two weeks of hell are over. It takes a broad mind, and humble person to admit they made a mistake. I truely wish Auther Ness would have risin to the occasion. but he didn't. Putting us all through this I would have met him half way. On the other hand to all who wrote to me privately, I'm, glad I could intertain you for the past week or so. I hope this incourages people to think for themselves on this list. I'm told by my other lute friends that the pompousness, and pettiness, doesn't exist in the world of lute, off this lutenet. Most of my lute freinds don't subscribe to this list and are constanly advising me to get off of it. I have not gone to the LSA for the past 3 years in fear of actually running in to anyone on this list. Although I'm sure I'll run into MO this fall when Barto plays at the GFA, in Cleveland. Fun,fun,fun In the mean time, Wayne has given me the choice of not insulting Auther Ness, or being kicked off the lutenet. Being someone who can't keep a promise like this I've choosen the later. I will not let the few pompous thugs, on this list, ruin my love, of all things lute. This has really been a soap opera. I'm sure my giutar
Re: Byrd
In defense of Michael Thames, and in defense of logic. Arrangement is a particular interference with the piece of music. I spent the weekend at the Somerset Harp Festival and was able to buy the Bunting book (of 1840) in facsimile. Bunting arranged the old Irish harp music, that he had collected by going from county to county after being the scribe for the 1792 Belfast Festival. He arranged the pieces for piano forte as he felt the old Celtic harp was disappearing, and the music had to be preserved. I will soon be transcribing much of that music back into harp friendly arrangements (the piano is quite chromatic, the harp is diatonic with the lever changes possible - but the old harp that Bunting described had no levers). Transcription means just that, a change of a form into another. But if I take an old tune, medieval Europe or medieval Scotland, that it written in French tab for the lute, and then turn it into stave notation for the harp, and then make some modifications (fitting the song) that make it better for the harp - Am I Trascribing or am I Arranging? Or if I do it in reverse, and take the staves to the tab? Am I transcribing or arranging. I bought a book today, at the harp festival. I have a 26x2 double strung harp. The book I bought is for 26 string single course harps (the writer is an old friend, and a fine cross strung harpist, and I've corrected his original book). Am I arranging when I play off his arrangments, or would I be transcribing if I were to set his piecec to the double strung harp (which I play and he doesn't). This thread was too detailed for me, but at a fast scan I think Michael is correct, with all due reverence to Arthur's opinion. It comes back to original intent, a great canard that will soon be bandied about in the recent nomination to the US Supreme Court. I've always felt that J.S. Bach was a covert jazz player, and that he would have loved the Swingle Singer's skat version of the Brandenburgs. Too much detail from Arthur for me to read, the individual composers an their instruments. Be it transcription or arrangement (the latter requiring a bit of modification to the instrument) the music is there. There is nothing sacred about a tune as played on a particular instrument, it was probably played on another in a different form before, but just not printed. The lute is a relatively late entrant into medieval music, although quite dominant in the renaissance. And having said this I can't see the correction of Michael T, as it all fits what Arthur has said. Fit the music to the instrument, play the song as it can be played. play the whistle or the hautboy, the psaltery or the harp, or the lute. I see no argument here. Other than a silly one between Transcription and Arrangement. Not mutually exclusive. Michael had it right. Transcribe from notation to notation. Transpose when using fixed key notition (as with classic staves). (Then one could also transcribe, but that is piling on). Or arrange, when one wants to make the best simulation of the original sound on another instrument. But don't be too damned sure that your instrument is the original. Yesterday I discussed a 1625 Straloch lute book piece with a harpist, who knew the same piece for the harp. The harp is far older in Scotland than the lute (and older than the lute, as a lute, in Europe). Which song/arrangement is older. Which is the transcription/rearrangement? I have no idea. And nor does anyone else unless they have specifics, which are available but rare. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Dear Stewart; Indeed, the issues you raise are fascinating and speak to situations and decisions I've had to make in my own attempts at intabulating. I've intabulated most of the secular music of Josquin trying to be as literal as I can. I use these intabulations as bases for spontaneous lute arrangements adding ornaments and divisions improvizationally as an exercise. I just couldn't figure out what in the discussion had sparked the heated emotional exchange between Mr. Thames and Mr. Ness. I'm still perplexed as to why they are at each other's throats over this issue. It seems to me tablature is superior for some purposes to mensural notation and vice versa. Being conversant in both can only be an asset to a lutenist. As regards the use of treble clef to notate music for guitar, has anyone noticed that clarinet music is notated in treble clef down to three ledger lines below the staff as is guitar music. Reading through the Rose studies for clarinet was a tool I used as a guitarist to learn to read mensural notation. I just can't figure out why this issue has inspired this escalating exchange of insults and flying fur. Oh well, carry on. Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 6:57 AM Subject: Byrd Dear Gary, The thread was originally about Byrd. I would very much like to know more about Byrd, and about the tablature sources of his music. For example, I have the impression that the lute solo settings make some concessions to the lute, i.e. the music is arranged to be idiomatic for the instrument, whereas the Paston settings are virtually literal intabulations minus the cantus. Paston's intabulations are often so exact that they are unnecessarily awkward to play. He even shows unisons, so, for example, where two viols play f, he intabulates it as: ___ ___ ___ _a_ _f_ ___ Transferring music from four viols to one lute tends to iron out the polyphonic nature of Byrd's music. Instead of hearing four interweaving melodic strands as on viols, one tends to hear a succession of chords on the lute, with more a suggestion of polyphony than a clear realisation of it. Some years ago I intabulated eight consort songs by Byrd for Fretwork Editions. If Paston intabulations existed, for various reasons I chose not to use them, and instead made my own arrangements. Literal intabulations can be self-defeating. For example, if you have one viol playing this: __ _a__c__d__ __ __ __ __ and another viol playing this: __ _d__c__a__ __ __ __ __ you'll have a literal intabulation looking like this: __ _d__c__d__ _f_f__ __ __ __ The two melodies fuse to become a succession of chords. I believe that it is often better to simplify such passages, and omit the notes of one viol for the sake of having at least one melodic line from the other viol clearly heard. Arthur (13th July) and Rainer (10th July) have provided us with sources and lists of music by Byrd arranged for the lute. Can anyone add to those lists? Do we have a list of all the lute pieces arranged by Byrd for keyboard? Notation may have its fascination, but I really would like to return to Byrd. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: Byrd Would someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Something must have gone down between Mr, Thames and Mr.Ness that I missed. The Matanya/Roman battle was more entertaining because I understood what it was about. The Best to All, Gary Digman - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 11:43 PM Subject: Byrd I've never met Arthur Ness, as I'm not really a member of the good old boys club. I'm relatively new to the lute, 4 years or so. I did play it a bit in the mid 70's. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date: 7/20/2005
Re: Byrd
Tablature for me is the best solution for playing the lute. The only problem I see is when I would like to transpose it into another key. (Or is this another 'dirty word' around here.?) I would have to transcribe tablature into staff-notation, re-work every note up, (or down by the same amount) to the desired 'key'. Then transcribe it back into tablature? That's why I sometimes play lute-song from staff-notation. But lately I found out my notation software (Finale) does a pretty good job at transposing tablature. ;-) David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Byrd
At 02:56 24-07-2005 -0700, gary digman wrote: Would someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Something must have gone down between Mr, Thames and Mr.Ness that I missed. The Matanya/Roman battle was more entertaining because I understood what it was about. Funny you should mention Roman. For a while, I thought that Thames was one of Roman's inventions to entertain us all. But he seems to be real enough. Amused, Arne. My inventions have a lower limit ... RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Tablature for me is the best solution for playing the lute. The only problem I see is when I would like to transpose it into another key. (Or is this another 'dirty word' around here.?) I would have to transcribe tablature into staff-notation, re-work every note up, (or down by the same amount) to the desired 'key'. Then transcribe it back into tablature? Ron UK There is software for this. RT When I studied Lute at Oakland University in the late 70's Dr. Nordstrom required us (meaning his Lute students) to be able to read and play from the Grand Staff. People that don't do this are robbing themselves of a degree of freedom in being able to explore music they may have only one source for. Not to mention the enlarged possibilities from intabulating your own versions, transcriptions, arrangements, or what ever you want to call them, from sources like the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book. I cannot understand why anyone in the Lute community would look down their nose at guitarists understanding that very many of us came to the Lute by way of the Guitar. That's like cursing your own father. As for me I can read and play from the Grand Staff, albeit slowly at first, I can sight read both French and Italian Tablature but to be honest I don't have a clue about German Tablature and its obscure forms. Which brings us back to the main problem of reading Grand Staff. A lot of the German Tab is available in Staff notation, which means that I can usually find what I want somewhere even if it is in Grand Staff. The real problem with staff notation, be it Grand Staff or treble is in the instrument itself and its reoccurring octaves. Simply put often there are conflicts or decisions about neck position where there may be more than one choice in a particular passage as where to play it. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Sal Salvaggio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Byrd A bit on Treble clef vs. tab and other ramblings- When I started to play the renaissance lute back in the winter of'75, I worked from keyboard transcriptions. I didn't read tab at the time. I saw the lines in this richly contrapuntal music and used my skills at fingering to come up with workable solutions. After learning to read tablature, I discovered that many of the composers for the lute dropped voices where I didn't in my own arrangements, Chords were voiced in different ways, etc. Each lute composer had their own unique way of doing this. Their individual approach to the music was part of their own unique style. At one time, early on, I did use guitar treble clef - but the pitch was off by a third -(or more with all the different tunings ex: lutes in A, D, etc) I figured I might as well hear the pitches that I was seeing so I turned to keyboard transcriptions - this also helped alot with my continuo playing later on. I guess you could write out lute music for guitar with the 3rd strting tuned down a half step and lots of fingerings - I got a copy of Strizich's book of deVisee to play on the baroque guitar as well as the Weiss London ms. in treble clef to play on the 13 c. lute- I have to admit that - with all the fingerings clogging up the page and the octave displacements- the experience was a bit on the frustrating side. IMHO guitarists should learn to read tablature! That would certainly open up a wealth of works for exploration. I think people like Arthur (da Milano) have helped to bring forgotten(due to the lost art of reading lute tab) lute composers to the music world. I also believe that lutenists who present works from original(or facsimile)editions have given us a closer picture of what the composer intended and heard in his head. Take Beethovan - his 9th played on the piano is like black and white compared to the orchestral rendition. He conceived it for the orchestra - battling sectional forces, antiphonal passeges etc.. Ever play Recuerdos on the piano - or imagine what it might sound like - humand all lutenist should learm to read modern notation as well - couldn't hurt Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Dear Stewart; Indeed, the issues you raise are fascinating and speak to situations and decisions I've had to make in my own attempts at intabulating. I've intabulated most of the secular music of Josquin trying to be as literal as I can. I use these intabulations as bases for spontaneous lute arrangements adding ornaments and divisions improvizationally as an exercise. I just couldn't figure out what in the discussion had sparked the heated emotional exchange between Mr. Thames and Mr. Ness. I'm still perplexed as to why they are at each other's throats over this issue. They are not. MT simply has an entirely erroneous notion that he is capable of making fun of stupid people like himself by demonstrating disrespect for (or being simply insulting toward) the intelligent ones... RT It seems to me tablature is superior for some purposes to mensural notation and vice versa. Being conversant in both can only be an asset to a lutenist. As regards the use of treble clef to notate music for guitar, has anyone noticed that clarinet music is notated in treble clef down to three ledger lines below the staff as is guitar music. Reading through the Rose studies for clarinet was a tool I used as a guitarist to learn to read mensural notation. I just can't figure out why this issue has inspired this escalating exchange of insults and flying fur. Oh well, carry on. Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 6:57 AM Subject: Byrd Dear Gary, The thread was originally about Byrd. I would very much like to know more about Byrd, and about the tablature sources of his music. For example, I have the impression that the lute solo settings make some concessions to the lute, i.e. the music is arranged to be idiomatic for the instrument, whereas the Paston settings are virtually literal intabulations minus the cantus. Paston's intabulations are often so exact that they are unnecessarily awkward to play. He even shows unisons, so, for example, where two viols play f, he intabulates it as: ___ ___ ___ _a_ _f_ ___ Transferring music from four viols to one lute tends to iron out the polyphonic nature of Byrd's music. Instead of hearing four interweaving melodic strands as on viols, one tends to hear a succession of chords on the lute, with more a suggestion of polyphony than a clear realisation of it. Some years ago I intabulated eight consort songs by Byrd for Fretwork Editions. If Paston intabulations existed, for various reasons I chose not to use them, and instead made my own arrangements. Literal intabulations can be self-defeating. For example, if you have one viol playing this: __ _a__c__d__ __ __ __ __ and another viol playing this: __ _d__c__a__ __ __ __ __ you'll have a literal intabulation looking like this: __ _d__c__d__ _f_f__ __ __ __ The two melodies fuse to become a succession of chords. I believe that it is often better to simplify such passages, and omit the notes of one viol for the sake of having at least one melodic line from the other viol clearly heard. Arthur (13th July) and Rainer (10th July) have provided us with sources and lists of music by Byrd arranged for the lute. Can anyone add to those lists? Do we have a list of all the lute pieces arranged by Byrd for keyboard? Notation may have its fascination, but I really would like to return to Byrd. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: Byrd Would someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Something must have gone down between Mr, Thames and Mr.Ness that I missed. The Matanya/Roman battle was more entertaining because I understood what it was about. The Best to All, Gary Digman - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 11:43 PM Subject: Byrd I've never met Arthur Ness, as I'm not really a member of the good old boys club. I'm relatively new to the lute, 4 years or so. I did play it a bit in the mid 70's. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date: 7/20/2005
Re: Byrd
As I clearly explained, Thames is not using the terminology properly. Nor are you. The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, vol. 9, page 117: quoteTRANSCRIPTION. (1) A copy of a musical work with some change in notation (e.g. from tablature to staff notation, from staff notation to Tonic Sol-fa) ...unquote Vol. 1, page 623 quoteARRANGEMENT ... The reworking of a musical composition, usually for a different medium from that of the original.unquote I would suggest that if you and Thames disagree, you take it up with Stanley Sadie, the editor. Not with me. When (and if) you find Stanley, give him my regards. For your sake(s), I hope it is not too soon. ajn - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: arthurjness ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 2:07 AM Subject: Re: Byrd In defense of Michael Thames, and in defense of logic. Arrangement is a particular interference with the piece of music. I spent the weekend at the Somerset Harp Festival and was able to buy the Bunting book (of 1840) in facsimile. Bunting arranged the old Irish harp music, that he had collected by going from county to county after being the scribe for the 1792 Belfast Festival. He arranged the pieces for piano forte as he felt the old Celtic harp was disappearing, and the music had to be preserved. I will soon be transcribing much of that music back into harp friendly arrangements (the piano is quite chromatic, the harp is diatonic with the lever changes possible - but the old harp that Bunting described had no levers). Transcription means just that, a change of a form into another. But if I take an old tune, medieval Europe or medieval Scotland, that it written in French tab for the lute, and then turn it into stave notation for the harp, and then make some modifications (fitting the song) that make it better for the harp - Am I Trascribing or am I Arranging? Or if I do it in reverse, and take the staves to the tab? Am I transcribing or arranging. I bought a book today, at the harp festival. I have a 26x2 double strung harp. The book I bought is for 26 string single course harps (the writer is an old friend, and a fine cross strung harpist, and I've corrected his original book). Am I arranging when I play off his arrangments, or would I be transcribing if I were to set his piecec to the double strung harp (which I play and he doesn't). This thread was too detailed for me, but at a fast scan I think Michael is correct, with all due reverence to Arthur's opinion. It comes back to original intent, a great canard that will soon be bandied about in the recent nomination to the US Supreme Court. I've always felt that J.S. Bach was a covert jazz player, and that he would have loved the Swingle Singer's skat version of the Brandenburgs. Too much detail from Arthur for me to read, the individual composers an their instruments. Be it transcription or arrangement (the latter requiring a bit of modification to the instrument) the music is there. There is nothing sacred about a tune as played on a particular instrument, it was probably played on another in a different form before, but just not printed. The lute is a relatively late entrant into medieval music, although quite dominant in the renaissance. And having said this I can't see the correction of Michael T, as it all fits what Arthur has said. Fit the music to the instrument, play the song as it can be played. play the whistle or the hautboy, the psaltery or the harp, or the lute. I see no argument here. Other than a silly one between Transcription and Arrangement. Not mutually exclusive. Michael had it right. Transcribe from notation to notation. Transpose when using fixed key notition (as with classic staves). (Then one could also transcribe, but that is piling on). Or arrange, when one wants to make the best simulation of the original sound on another instrument. But don't be too damned sure that your instrument is the original. Yesterday I discussed a 1625 Straloch lute book piece with a harpist, who knew the same piece for the harp. The harp is far older in Scotland than the lute (and older than the lute, as a lute, in Europe). Which song/arrangement is older. Which is the transcription/rearrangement? I have no idea. And nor does anyone else unless they have specifics, which are available but rare. Best, Jon -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Thanks for you comments, Roman. It really angers me when someone like Gary Digman comments NOT on what I wrote, but on what Thames says I wrote. Almost everything MT says is a distortion, as Dana and Howard have already noted. I have placed him on my kill list, in order to spare having to read the vicious insults and name calling that he has directed at me. I don't need that. ajn - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky To: gary digman ; lutelist Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Byrd Dear Stewart; Indeed, the issues you raise are fascinating and speak to situations and decisions I've had to make in my own attempts at intabulating. I've intabulated most of the secular music of Josquin trying to be as literal as I can. I use these intabulations as bases for spontaneous lute arrangements adding ornaments and divisions improvizationally as an exercise. I just couldn't figure out what in the discussion had sparked the heated emotional exchange between Mr. Thames and Mr. Ness. I'm still perplexed as to why they are at each other's throats over this issue. They are not. MT simply has an entirely erroneous notion that he is capable of making fun of stupid people like himself by demonstrating disrespect for (or being simply insulting toward) the intelligent ones... RT It seems to me tablature is superior for some purposes to mensural notation and vice versa. Being conversant in both can only be an asset to a lutenist. As regards the use of treble clef to notate music for guitar, has anyone noticed that clarinet music is notated in treble clef down to three ledger lines below the staff as is guitar music. Reading through the Rose studies for clarinet was a tool I used as a guitarist to learn to read mensural notation. I just can't figure out why this issue has inspired this escalating exchange of insults and flying fur. Oh well, carry on. Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 6:57 AM Subject: Byrd Dear Gary, The thread was originally about Byrd. I would very much like to know more about Byrd, and about the tablature sources of his music. For example, I have the impression that the lute solo settings make some concessions to the lute, i.e. the music is arranged to be idiomatic for the instrument, whereas the Paston settings are virtually literal intabulations minus the cantus. Paston's intabulations are often so exact that they are unnecessarily awkward to play. He even shows unisons, so, for example, where two viols play f, he intabulates it as: ___ ___ ___ _a_ _f_ ___ Transferring music from four viols to one lute tends to iron out the polyphonic nature of Byrd's music. Instead of hearing four interweaving melodic strands as on viols, one tends to hear a succession of chords on the lute, with more a suggestion of polyphony than a clear realisation of it. Some years ago I intabulated eight consort songs by Byrd for Fretwork Editions. If Paston intabulations existed, for various reasons I chose not to use them, and instead made my own arrangements. Literal intabulations can be self-defeating. For example, if you have one viol playing this: __ _a__c__d__ __ __ __ __ and another viol playing this: __ _d__c__a__ __ __ __ __ you'll have a literal intabulation looking like this: __ _d__c__d__ _f_f__ __ __ __ The two melodies fuse to become a succession of chords. I believe that it is often better to simplify such passages, and omit the notes of one viol for the sake of having at least one melodic line from the other viol clearly heard. Arthur (13th July) and Rainer (10th July) have provided us with sources and lists of music by Byrd arranged for the lute. Can anyone add to those lists? Do we have a list of all the lute pieces arranged by Byrd for keyboard? Notation may have its fascination, but I really would like to return to Byrd. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: Byrd Would someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Something must have gone down between Mr, Thames and Mr.Ness that I missed. The Matanya/Roman battle was more entertaining because I understood what it was about. The Best to All, Gary Digman - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: Byrd
Thanks Roman, could you expand a little. Indeed, this will be in Fronimo 3 due in September. RT I use Fronimo. Maybe the new version would show what 'key' a piece is written in. Then by changing this, all the notes (ciphers) would re-arrange to the new fingerings? A little too optimistic for me. Best Wishes Ron -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 July 2005 13:29 To: Ron Fletcher Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Byrd Tablature for me is the best solution for playing the lute. The only problem I see is when I would like to transpose it into another key. (Or is this another 'dirty word' around here.?) I would have to transcribe tablature into staff-notation, re-work every note up, (or down by the same amount) to the desired 'key'. Then transcribe it back into tablature? Ron UK There is software for this. RT When I studied Lute at Oakland University in the late 70's Dr. Nordstrom required us (meaning his Lute students) to be able to read and play from the Grand Staff. People that don't do this are robbing themselves of a degree of freedom in being able to explore music they may have only one source for. Not to mention the enlarged possibilities from intabulating your own versions, transcriptions, arrangements, or what ever you want to call them, from sources like the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book. I cannot understand why anyone in the Lute community would look down their nose at guitarists understanding that very many of us came to the Lute by way of the Guitar. That's like cursing your own father. As for me I can read and play from the Grand Staff, albeit slowly at first, I can sight read both French and Italian Tablature but to be honest I don't have a clue about German Tablature and its obscure forms. Which brings us back to the main problem of reading Grand Staff. A lot of the German Tab is available in Staff notation, which means that I can usually find what I want somewhere even if it is in Grand Staff. The real problem with staff notation, be it Grand Staff or treble is in the instrument itself and its reoccurring octaves. Simply put often there are conflicts or decisions about neck position where there may be more than one choice in a particular passage as where to play it. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Sal Salvaggio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Byrd A bit on Treble clef vs. tab and other ramblings- When I started to play the renaissance lute back in the winter of'75, I worked from keyboard transcriptions. I didn't read tab at the time. I saw the lines in this richly contrapuntal music and used my skills at fingering to come up with workable solutions. After learning to read tablature, I discovered that many of the composers for the lute dropped voices where I didn't in my own arrangements, Chords were voiced in different ways, etc. Each lute composer had their own unique way of doing this. Their individual approach to the music was part of their own unique style. At one time, early on, I did use guitar treble clef - but the pitch was off by a third -(or more with all the different tunings ex: lutes in A, D, etc) I figured I might as well hear the pitches that I was seeing so I turned to keyboard transcriptions - this also helped alot with my continuo playing later on. I guess you could write out lute music for guitar with the 3rd strting tuned down a half step and lots of fingerings - I got a copy of Strizich's book of deVisee to play on the baroque guitar as well as the Weiss London ms. in treble clef to play on the 13 c. lute- I have to admit that - with all the fingerings clogging up the page and the octave displacements- the experience was a bit on the frustrating side. IMHO guitarists should learn to read tablature! That would certainly open up a wealth of works for exploration. I think people like Arthur (da Milano) have helped to bring forgotten(due to the lost art of reading lute tab) lute composers to the music world. I also believe that lutenists who present works from original(or facsimile)editions have given us a closer picture of what the composer intended and heard in his head. Take Beethovan - his 9th played on the piano is like black and white compared to the orchestral rendition. He conceived it for the orchestra - battling sectional forces, antiphonal passeges etc.. Ever play Recuerdos on the piano - or imagine what it might sound like - humand all lutenist should learm to read modern notation as well - couldn't hurt Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com
Re: Byrd
It seems that Ness is saying that a keyboard composition, reworked (arranged) for lute, can qualify as an original lute piece. Thames is saying, not so. Do I have this right? I'm a little confused about this thread... Consider Avison's arrangements of Scarlatti sonatas, or Bach's arrangements of Italian string concerti. They certainly qualify as originals. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Indeed, the issues you raise are fascinating and speak to situations and decisions I've had to make in my own attempts at intabulating. I've intabulated most of the secular music of Josquin trying to be as literal as I can. I use these intabulations as bases for spontaneous lute arrangements adding ornaments and divisions improvizationally as an exercise. I just couldn't figure out what in the discussion had sparked the heated emotional exchange between Mr. Thames and Mr. Ness. To be precise: it all started when MT took a strong exception to my dislike (shared by many) of John Williams. To make his point MT said that RT is a bad artist and worse composer, right after he said that he'd never lowered himself to examine either part of RT's cheesy output. I was too busy to deal with these idiocies, so MT latched onto Arthur, either out of inertia, because of ineffectual marriage therapist, or some other equally uninteresting impetus, making our ears wilt (as we say in Russian) with each succeeding message. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd, Tabluature etc.
The problem with lists like this is generally you have a bunch of fairly well educated and well meaning people get together and discuss Not really. The problem are those people who think (erroneously) that they are fairly well-educated and/or well-meaning. All hell tends to break loose when they are pointed out their deficiencies. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AKA Michael Thames scripsit: Dear Mr. McCoy, If MT is incorrect in saying Byrd wrote no lute music. There IS lute music by Byrd, even if Byrd was not responsible for it himself, inasmuch as there is lute music by C.P.E.Bach, F.I.Tuma, G.C.Wagenseil, Bulyowsky, Telemann, Schubert, Max Reger and MANY others, just because some valentuomini have used their intelligence to make lute music out of theirs. Is Doug Smith incorrect as well? Nobody is always correct. Doug Smith included, big time. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
I'm a novice at all this, but I can see the point that Arthur Ness is making. Earlier on (if I understand correctly) he gave the example of Byrd pieces that have been transcribed unchanged from lute originals (rather than arranged) to the keyboard. Even in my limited experience I have come across examples of this - for example there is a Fancy by Newman in the Mulliner Book and a Sarabande and Allemande in the Elizabeth Rogers Virginal Book all of which look very much (from the distribution of the parts) as if they are lute pieces that have been written down in grand staff (for virginal players to play?) with hardly any (if any) rearrangement. These transcriptions (yes, I think this to be the correct term) are clearly different from the example of reworking given by Salvatore Salvaggio. However this reworking is different again from the many examples of different pieces based on the same theme - eg Edward Collard's Ground (for lute) based on the same theme as Byrd's Hugh Ashton's Ground, and the several versions of Conde Claros for vihuela and lute. Eric Crouch On 24 Jul 2005, at 06:00, Sal Salvaggio wrote: Luters, I am presently working on a Pavan by Byrd set by Francis Cutting for a program of Elizabethan Ballads and Dances.I put the piece in with a group of Cutting pieces. The Cutting style is evident in his reworking or recomposition of this work. I consider it as original in the way Mr. Cutting has used the lute to express his rendition of the Byrd piece. Would I call this a Cutting composition? NO. I think of it as an original Cutting impression of a keyboard piece by Byrd - in effect an original piece for the lute by Cutting, much as I consider Andres Segovia's Bach Chaconne or his recomposition of DeVisee or Llobet's thinning out + guitaristic coloring of Granados as original works for the guitar...Let the semantic fur fly Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com On 24 July at 04:49 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi to all, It seems that Ness is saying that a keyboard composition, reworked (arranged) for lute, can qualify as an original lute piece. Thames is saying, not so. Do I have this right? I'm a little confused about this thread... I've published several books with Mel Bay Publications of my arrangements for guitar: works by Debussy, Handel, Strauss, Bach, Schubert, Mozart, etc. Even though a lot of creative work goes into these arrangements; in no way would I consider them to now qualify as original guitar compositions. I've had a very busy and tiring week, so forgive me if I'm missing the obvious; but it seems to me that Michael has a valid point about all this. Being a nice person and valued musicologist is not the issue here, is it? James __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Byrd
Would someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Something must have gone down between Mr, Thames and Mr.Ness that I missed. The Matanya/Roman battle was more entertaining because I understood what it was about. The Best to All, Gary Digman - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 11:43 PM Subject: Byrd I've never met Arthur Ness, as I'm not really a member of the good old boys club. I'm relatively new to the lute, 4 years or so. I did play it a bit in the mid 70's. I've seen his name next to Da Milano's pieces, and that's about all I know, other than he is. I've been assuming, some kind of musicologist. I'm sure he's a nice guy, however, like most humans, if you get on their bad side, they can be not so nice! Myself included. So, niceties aside. What I'm seeing, is basically, all the people who know, and like Arthur, are turning a blind ear, to what he's saying. Not having been in the loop, maybe I'm supposed to just humor him? Nancy, etc. do you really believe that Tablature, is for the novice lute player? when both the London and Dresden MS and all of Weiss's music is written in Tablature? No attempt was ever made by Weiss to put it into pitch notation, and Bach's music transcribed into tab from grand staff ? by his lute students. If I follow your rational. if Arthur says it, it must be true. However, you don't have to be a musicologist, to see through this ridiculous claim. Can anyone find in one of my emails, any comment where I said lutenists were Musically illiterate ? and lutenists can't read pitch notation. I really don't mind an interesting debate, and I've admitted I've been wrong at times, I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people putting words in my mouth, and bending the truth, so they can try and make me into a village Idiot. and make them look good. and man! Arthur is doing one hell of a song and dance! Arthur is able to twist me saying.. Transcriptions of original keyboard compositions to the lute, are NOT original lute pieces, and transcriptions of original lute pieces to the keyboard, are not keyboard pieces, they are what we village idiots refer to as ARRANGEMENTS, or transcriptions, or neither, just popular tunes of the time, played on what ever instrument was hanging around. Into lecturing me on the difference between transcriptions, and arrangements.. If you notice I didn't use the term equate.. I used the word or, big difference, but not to Ness I guess. He sees what he wants to see, problem is, it hasn't allot to do with reality. I guess dialogue, and reason, have no place when one is dealing with the one and only authority, in the upper realms of the lute cosmology. It's really a pretty small fraction in the musical universe. Nancy, you called me to ask what the lute society could do to promote itself when Barto plays this year at the GFA. Well maybe you could start by not supporting Nessy's derogatory comments about guitarists, and start putting lute music along side guitar music, in treble clef, for starters. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date: 7/20/2005
Re: Re: Byrd
At 02:56 24-07-2005 -0700, gary digman wrote: Would someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Something must have gone down between Mr, Thames and Mr.Ness that I missed. The Matanya/Roman battle was more entertaining because I understood what it was about. Funny you should mention Roman. For a while, I thought that Thames was one of Roman's inventions to entertain us all. But he seems to be real enough. Amused, Arne. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
A bit on Treble clef vs. tab and other ramblings- When I started to play the renaissance lute back in the winter of'75, I worked from keyboard transcriptions. I didn't read tab at the time. I saw the lines in this richly contrapuntal music and used my skills at fingering to come up with workable solutions. After learning to read tablature, I discovered that many of the composers for the lute dropped voices where I didn't in my own arrangements, Chords were voiced in different ways, etc. Each lute composer had their own unique way of doing this. Their individual approach to the music was part of their own unique style. At one time, early on, I did use guitar treble clef - but the pitch was off by a third -(or more with all the different tunings ex: lutes in A, D, etc) I figured I might as well hear the pitches that I was seeing so I turned to keyboard transcriptions - this also helped alot with my continuo playing later on. I guess you could write out lute music for guitar with the 3rd strting tuned down a half step and lots of fingerings - I got a copy of Strizich's book of deVisee to play on the baroque guitar as well as the Weiss London ms. in treble clef to play on the 13 c. lute- I have to admit that - with all the fingerings clogging up the page and the octave displacements- the experience was a bit on the frustrating side. IMHO guitarists should learn to read tablature! That would certainly open up a wealth of works for exploration. I think people like Arthur (da Milano) have helped to bring forgotten(due to the lost art of reading lute tab) lute composers to the music world. I also believe that lutenists who present works from original(or facsimile)editions have given us a closer picture of what the composer intended and heard in his head. Take Beethovan - his 9th played on the piano is like black and white compared to the orchestral rendition. He conceived it for the orchestra - battling sectional forces, antiphonal passeges etc.. Ever play Recuerdos on the piano - or imagine what it might sound like - humand all lutenist should learm to read modern notation as well - couldn't hurt Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Michael Thames wrote: Nancy, etc. do you really believe that Tablature, is for the novice lute player? when both the London and Dresden MS and all of Weiss's music is written in Tablature? I'm sure she doesn't, and nobody has said anything like it. Since you just said, I do have a problem with people putting words in my mouth, and bending the truth, you need to go back and read what set you off on this particular rant. Read all the words. Read them in order. Use a dictionary to look up the ones you don't understand. Arthur wrote: Judging from the inclusion of elementary instructions in many early lute tablature books, tablature was originally intended for novice players. But it was easy to print, and survived because of the many scordatura lute tunings in the 17th century. Somone counted 28 of them. Pitch notation would make that jumble of tunings a real mess for even the most skilled player. Tablature was a practical solution. A dictionary might not help you with early lute tablature books. You either know that early lute tablature books date from the 1500s, and that Weiss came along two centuries later, or you don't. Apparently you don't, or are just uninterested in facts or logical connections. But don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you claim to be a voice of reason whose wisdom is ignored because you aren't part of the old boy network. Indeed, as a general rule, if you need to keep protesting that you're a voice of reason, you're not one. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Posner, In the context of what Ness is saying, and all his previous emails trying to establish pitch notation as superior to tablature, for lutenists ?!? I havent read that in Arthurs posts. Tablature and staff notations record the music using different abstractions, each has its advantages, each its disadvantages; to y mind there is no objective criteria to decide which is superior to the other in any general sense; one can however make a reasoned choice in particular situations. A player should be conversant with both, however, tablature is proven far easier to teach to the musically naive, and even for the musically literate it can be easier to learn to read for a plucked instrument from tablature than staff. One is then only challenged to have a supply of music in tablature to work with. The facts suporting all sides of this issue are well known to all of us, perhaps remaining rehash of them could be left as [silent] excercise? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
And as a very practical matter, if you're concerned about being taken seriously as a musician, you are going to get handed music in modern notation, especially when working with singers and ensembles. You have to be able to read modern notation and tablature if you want to play professionally or even semi-professionally. So, it depends on what you are aiming to do with the lute IMHO. --- Sal Salvaggio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A bit on Treble clef vs. tab and other ramblings- When I started to play the renaissance lute back in the winter of'75, I worked from keyboard transcriptions. I didn't read tab at the time. I saw the lines in this richly contrapuntal music and used my skills at fingering to come up with workable solutions. After learning to read tablature, I discovered that many of the composers for the lute dropped voices where I didn't in my own arrangements, Chords were voiced in different ways, etc. Each lute composer had their own unique way of doing this. Their individual approach to the music was part of their own unique style. At one time, early on, I did use guitar treble clef - but the pitch was off by a third -(or more with all the different tunings ex: lutes in A, D, etc) I figured I might as well hear the pitches that I was seeing so I turned to keyboard transcriptions - this also helped alot with my continuo playing later on. I guess you could write out lute music for guitar with the 3rd strting tuned down a half step and lots of fingerings - I got a copy of Strizich's book of deVisee to play on the baroque guitar as well as the Weiss London ms. in treble clef to play on the 13 c. lute- I have to admit that - with all the fingerings clogging up the page and the octave displacements- the experience was a bit on the frustrating side. IMHO guitarists should learn to read tablature! That would certainly open up a wealth of works for exploration. I think people like Arthur (da Milano) have helped to bring forgotten(due to the lost art of reading lute tab) lute composers to the music world. I also believe that lutenists who present works from original(or facsimile)editions have given us a closer picture of what the composer intended and heard in his head. Take Beethovan - his 9th played on the piano is like black and white compared to the orchestral rendition. He conceived it for the orchestra - battling sectional forces, antiphonal passeges etc.. Ever play Recuerdos on the piano - or imagine what it might sound like - humand all lutenist should learm to read modern notation as well - couldn't hurt Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Nancy, etc. do you really believe that Tablature, is for the novice lute player? when both the London and Dresden MS and all of Weiss's music is written in Tablature? Do you really think the one fact disputes the other? Tablature is intuitive, and has few mysteries to be explained to one who would master it. Music notation ca 1500 was in transition, several conventions were in use that are since discarded. The theory of music was published in Latin, with snatches of greek and hebrew. Mastery of the staff notation of 1500 was a great deal harder than modern staff notation, and in both cases more difficult than tablature; one studied it with the help of a teacher, one who (hopefully) had mastery of the mysteries. The cost of publishing was high in 1500. Once printed, the works had to be stored until sold, perhaps transported to remote market places; slow sales could bring on bankruptcy. Lots of risk, and smart printers did what they could to ensure the investment was safeguarded. Printers who had influence arranged for monopolys, which sometimes were notation- specific. Tablature was the choice of notation for editions marketed for players of plucked strings during the renaissance, often the music in those editions could be found in other editions in staff notation as well, intended for singers or windband players. It was reasonable for the 16c publisher of music to presume a plucked string player would be or could quickly become proficient in reading tablature, no sales would be lost to those fewer players who also read staff. Yes, tablature was an easier notation to teach and to learn. No, that did not prejudice the quality of the music published in tablature notation. -- dana emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
When I studied Lute at Oakland University in the late 70's Dr. Nordstrom required us (meaning his Lute students) to be able to read and play from the Grand Staff. People that don't do this are robbing themselves of a degree of freedom in being able to explore music they may have only one source for. Not to mention the enlarged possibilities from intabulating your own versions, transcriptions, arrangements, or what ever you want to call them, from sources like the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book. I cannot understand why anyone in the Lute community would look down their nose at guitarists understanding that very many of us came to the Lute by way of the Guitar. That's like cursing your own father. As for me I can read and play from the Grand Staff, albeit slowly at first, I can sight read both French and Italian Tablature but to be honest I don't have a clue about German Tablature and its obscure forms. Which brings us back to the main problem of reading Grand Staff. A lot of the German Tab is available in Staff notation, which means that I can usually find what I want somewhere even if it is in Grand Staff. The real problem with staff notation, be it Grand Staff or treble is in the instrument itself and its reoccurring octaves. Simply put often there are conflicts or decisions about neck position where there may be more than one choice in a particular passage as where to play it. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Sal Salvaggio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Byrd A bit on Treble clef vs. tab and other ramblings- When I started to play the renaissance lute back in the winter of'75, I worked from keyboard transcriptions. I didn't read tab at the time. I saw the lines in this richly contrapuntal music and used my skills at fingering to come up with workable solutions. After learning to read tablature, I discovered that many of the composers for the lute dropped voices where I didn't in my own arrangements, Chords were voiced in different ways, etc. Each lute composer had their own unique way of doing this. Their individual approach to the music was part of their own unique style. At one time, early on, I did use guitar treble clef - but the pitch was off by a third -(or more with all the different tunings ex: lutes in A, D, etc) I figured I might as well hear the pitches that I was seeing so I turned to keyboard transcriptions - this also helped alot with my continuo playing later on. I guess you could write out lute music for guitar with the 3rd strting tuned down a half step and lots of fingerings - I got a copy of Strizich's book of deVisee to play on the baroque guitar as well as the Weiss London ms. in treble clef to play on the 13 c. lute- I have to admit that - with all the fingerings clogging up the page and the octave displacements- the experience was a bit on the frustrating side. IMHO guitarists should learn to read tablature! That would certainly open up a wealth of works for exploration. I think people like Arthur (da Milano) have helped to bring forgotten(due to the lost art of reading lute tab) lute composers to the music world. I also believe that lutenists who present works from original(or facsimile)editions have given us a closer picture of what the composer intended and heard in his head. Take Beethovan - his 9th played on the piano is like black and white compared to the orchestral rendition. He conceived it for the orchestra - battling sectional forces, antiphonal passeges etc.. Ever play Recuerdos on the piano - or imagine what it might sound like - humand all lutenist should learm to read modern notation as well - couldn't hurt Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
It's probably just the leaves rustling, but I keep imagining I hear Bob Clair giggling under his breath and saying never try to teach a pig to sing. Michael Thames wrote: In the context of what Ness is saying, and all his previous emails trying to establish pitch notation as superior to tablature, for lutenistsI most certainly stand by what I said. He's saying that historically, novices read tab until they go on to higher forms of notation, He didn't say either of those things. I suggest you go back and re read what Ness said, I did, and I reproduced it for you, and told you to read it carefully. You still didn't understand. I suppose I can't solve your reading comprehension problems for you. The only reason I keep responding to this particular error on your part is that you're broadcasting a misrepresentation of Arthur's views, and I really don't want to read somewhere else that a noted musicologist said tablature was for novices and real lute music is written in staff notation. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd + when the fishin's bad
Chris wrote: And as a very practical matter, if you're concerned about being taken seriously as a musician, you are going to get handed music in modern notation And oh - how true this is - in my career as a professional player the ability to read all the clefs has helped get the gigs. The most interesting being Cole Porter's lute part in Kiss Me Kate! Made a bundle on that show off to an idea. I do wish that this bickering can stop. I guess the fishin's bad or something. Hey, I got an idea - how 'bout we work as a collective and compile lists of useful things lute players and musicologists need - maybe draw on our experiences - what do we do for sight reading notation, some continuo or proto continuo ARS editions we can use to improve our musicianship skills, books or music we might have used to learn to notation on the lute or compile a list of progressive pieces in tablature that guitar players can use to read tablature or help musicologists with practical fingerings in their keyboard renditions which in turn might show in notational form the composers actual intent in terms of line realizations etc. ..I've got a lot to share - how about you guys? Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Byrd, Tabluature etc.
I hereby invoke Godwin's Law. -Original Message- From: Chad McAnally [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:30 PM To: lute Subject: Byrd, Tabluature etc. Hello all, The problem with lists like this is generally you have a bunch of fairly well educated and well meaning people get together and discuss something of real importance to them. This occasionally evokes strong emotional debates and reactions from the participants. And more often than not , because of the de-personalized format of e-mail the authors of posts attack others in ways they would not in more public personal forum. I have see this on more than one list. What we are here for if not to discuss and debate the issues we care about? But do we have to do it in an adversarial, combative and demeaning fashion??? Despite many assurances to the contrary, I do think the tenor of many posts on this last topic ( tablature) is getting far out of hand. Most listers are not conflict mongers. Pointless argument wastes our time. We are here to learn from each other, not attack each other. If someone talked down to me in this pompous fashion, I doubt I'd be nearly as civil as Michael Thames has managed to be. Put yourself in his shoes. How would you react? I don't think anyone should be censured on this list by anything but common sense and actual tact. Both are becoming rarities in the world and I'd hate to think that people who ought know better would act like this too. This sort of garbage is what turns of people from lists like this. Can we behave like adults now? Chad McAnally -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
I agree with Paolo, Arthur's messages are always good to read even if I may not fully agree all of the time. They are not condescending, arrogant or pretentious, and for the most part make you think instead of make you mad. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: arthurjness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Byrd Dear Arthur, for me has ever been a pleasure to read yours truly informative e-mails, on every subject and in all occasions. I hope that you will continue to spend part of your time wrinting on this list. Best wishes Paolo Declich In the present discussion it is important to understand the essential difference between an ARRANGEMENT and a TRANSCRIPTION. Thames misses the point completely when he equates the two (see below). The terms are not interchangeable, when used according to their proper meaning. When I studied privately with Julius Gold in Hollywood as a teenager, I recall one of his watch words: Fit the music to the instrument. Likewise an arrangement takes a pre-existent work, say one by Giulio da Modena, Byrd or Couperin, and adapts and re-works it into an idiomatic piece for another instrument. You fit the music from one instrument to another, especially when dealing with a complex instrument like the lute or guitar. Master lutenists such as Melchior Newsidler, Holborne, Cutting, Dowland, de Visée, da Crema, Francesco, Gauthier, and the like, often made such works. The new work for lute is created from, say, a keyboard or vocal composition, or even instrumental ensemble partituras (e.g., ricercars and fantasias by Giulio da Modena done up by da Crema and others). If done well, these are as valid as are works originally conceived for lute. And it is wrong to accord them second class status, as Thames does. Several lutenists on this List have already testified to the beauty and effectiveness of such music. (Denys, O bone Jesu is by Antonio de Ribiera (not Compère), a Spanish musician in the papal chapel during the time of Francesco's tenure as chamber musician. It does have that sultry mood of Spain. A manuscript in Tarazona calls it il più bel motetto del mondo. It surely represents another effective work arranged for lute. You should publish your arrangement for voice and lute in the Lute News. Alla Wm Birde.g) In contrast a TRANSCRIPTION is simply a re-writing from one system of notation to another. In the FWVB, Byrd made transcriptions, NOT arrangements. In this instance, lute music is not fitted or adapted to the keyboard instrument. It is just simply transferred directly from one notational system (tablature) to another (grand staff). Byrd's labor was no different than that of a modern transcriber/editor of lute music. Byrd's transcrptions made available lute music on the grand staff for keyboard players who could not read lute tablature, and for those lutenists who preferred to play from pitch notation. Thames's assumption that notation on the grand staff miraculously changes lute music into keyboard music is just as invalid as his notion that lutenists cannot read pitch notation. There are examples of lute music in pitch notation back to the 15th century, and of course modern editions of lute music have for a century used the grand staff, with usually a nominal G tuning. The standard way of notating lute music. Judging from the inclusion of elementary instructions in many early lute tablature books, tablature was originally intended for novice players. But it was easy to print, and survived because of the many scordatura lute tunings in the 17th century. Somone counted 28 of them. Pitch notation would make that jumble of tunings a real mess for even the most skilled player. Tablature was a practical solution. Oh yes, there's a lot more lute music by Byrd than I indicated before. There are a whopping 182 works with lute in the Paston Books alone, albeit many adapted for lute from vocal music (as I said when I first mentioned the Byrd works). Over the years Paul O'Dette and Julian Bream have explored some of this repertory, so it is hardly uncharted territory. Stewart McCoy has published some editions of the songs with lute. Of course, no one has yet studied the dance pieces to determine whether they were done up first as lute or as keyboard music. Byrd studied with Ferabosco, after all. **Of course much lute music was conceived in pitch notation, most likely on the grand staff or in partitura. See Jessie Owens excellent study, _Composers at Work: The Craft of Musical Composition 1450-1600_ (OUP). There are very few surviving examples of lute music sketched in tablature. I can list them (page byu page) on one hand. Composition with all the correction
Re: Byrd
A strong ditto here. It's a long difficult puzzle to see the ingenuity and scope of the lute in its many centuries. I know that if Arthur does make conjectures he has, at least, done the research to back it up --and, more often than not, among the primary sources. And now I feel a little out-of sorts having had to give the author of the Complete Works of Francesco a letter of recommendation. Sean On Jul 23, 2005, at 11:58 AM, paolo..declich@@libero..it wrote: Dear Arthur, for me has ever been a pleasure to read yours truly informative e-mails, on every subject and in all occasions. I hope that you will continue to spend part of your time wrinting on this list. Best wishes Paolo Declich In the present discussion it is important to understand the essential difference between an ARRANGEMENT and a TRANSCRIPTION. Thames misses the point completely when he equates the two (see below). The terms are not interchangeable, when used according to their proper meaning. When I studied privately with Julius Gold in Hollywood as a teenager, I recall one of his watch words: Fit the music to the instrument. Likewise an arrangement takes a pre-existent work, say one by Giulio da Modena, Byrd or Couperin, and adapts and re-works it into an idiomatic piece for another instrument. You fit the music from one instrument to another, especially when dealing with a complex instrument like the lute or guitar. Master lutenists such as Melchior Newsidler, Holborne, Cutting, Dowland, de Visée, da Crema, Francesco, Gauthier, and the like, often made such works. The new work for lute is created from, say, a keyboard or vocal composition, or even instrumental ensemble partituras (e.g., ricercars and fantasias by Giulio da Modena done up by da Crema and others). If done well, these are as valid as are works originally conceived for lute. And it is wrong to accord them second class status, as Thames does. Several lutenists on this List have already testified to the beauty and effectiveness of such music. (Denys, O bone Jesu is by Antonio de Ribiera (not Compère), a Spanish musician in the papal chapel during the time of Francesco's tenure as chamber musician. It does have that sultry mood of Spain. A manuscript in Tarazona calls it il più bel motetto del mondo. It surely represents another effective work arranged for lute. You should publish your arrangement for voice and lute in the Lute News. Alla Wm Birde.g) In contrast a TRANSCRIPTION is simply a re-writing from one system of notation to another. In the FWVB, Byrd made transcriptions, NOT arrangements. In this instance, lute music is not fitted or adapted to the keyboard instrument. It is just simply transferred directly from one notational system (tablature) to another (grand staff). Byrd's labor was no different than that of a modern transcriber/editor of lute music. Byrd's transcrptions made available lute music on the grand staff for keyboard players who could not read lute tablature, and for those lutenists who preferred to play from pitch notation. Thames's assumption that notation on the grand staff miraculously changes lute music into keyboard music is just as invalid as his notion that lutenists cannot read pitch notation. There are examples of lute music in pitch notation back to the 15th century, and of course modern editions of lute music have for a century used the grand staff, with usually a nominal G tuning. The standard way of notating lute music. Judging from the inclusion of elementary instructions in many early lute tablature books, tablature was originally intended for novice players. But it was easy to print, and survived because of the many scordatura lute tunings in the 17th century. Somone counted 28 of them. Pitch notation would make that jumble of tunings a real mess for even the most skilled player. Tablature was a practical solution. Oh yes, there's a lot more lute music by Byrd than I indicated before. There are a whopping 182 works with lute in the Paston Books alone, albeit many adapted for lute from vocal music (as I said when I first mentioned the Byrd works). Over the years Paul O'Dette and Julian Bream have explored some of this repertory, so it is hardly uncharted territory. Stewart McCoy has published some editions of the songs with lute. Of course, no one has yet studied the dance pieces to determine whether they were done up first as lute or as keyboard music. Byrd studied with Ferabosco, after all. **Of course much lute music was conceived in pitch notation, most likely on the grand staff or in partitura. See Jessie Owens excellent study, _Composers at Work: The Craft of Musical Composition 1450-1600_ (OUP). There are very few surviving examples of lute music sketched in tablature. I can list them (page byu page) on one hand. Composition with all the correction was first done on erasable tablets of
Re: Byrd
I agree as well. Arthur has look at more original sources of lute and other early music than I will get to in this lifetime. I love his contributions. Nancy Carlin A strong ditto here. It's a long difficult puzzle to see the ingenuity and scope of the lute in its many centuries. I know that if Arthur does make conjectures he has, at least, done the research to back it up --and, more often than not, among the primary sources. And now I feel a little out-of sorts having had to give the author of the Complete Works of Francesco a letter of recommendation. Sean On Jul 23, 2005, at 11:58 AM, paolo..declich@@libero..it wrote: Dear Arthur, for me has ever been a pleasure to read yours truly informative e-mails, on every subject and in all occasions. I hope that you will continue to spend part of your time wrinting on this list. Best wishes Paolo Declich In the present discussion it is important to understand the essential difference between an ARRANGEMENT and a TRANSCRIPTION. Thames misses the point completely when he equates the two (see below). The terms are not interchangeable, when used according to their proper meaning. When I studied privately with Julius Gold in Hollywood as a teenager, I recall one of his watch words: Fit the music to the instrument. Likewise an arrangement takes a pre-existent work, say one by Giulio da Modena, Byrd or Couperin, and adapts and re-works it into an idiomatic piece for another instrument. You fit the music from one instrument to another, especially when dealing with a complex instrument like the lute or guitar. Master lutenists such as Melchior Newsidler, Holborne, Cutting, Dowland, de Visee, da Crema, Francesco, Gauthier, and the like, often made such works. The new work for lute is created from, say, a keyboard or vocal composition, or even instrumental ensemble partituras (e.g., ricercars and fantasias by Giulio da Modena done up by da Crema and others). If done well, these are as valid as are works originally conceived for lute. And it is wrong to accord them second class status, as Thames does. Several lutenists on this List have already testified to the beauty and effectiveness of such music. (Denys, O bone Jesu is by Antonio de Ribiera (not Comp=E8re), a Spanish musician in the papal chapel during the time of Francesco's tenure as chamber musician. It does have that sultry mood of Spain. A manuscript in Tarazona calls it il pi=F9 bel motetto del mondo. It surely represents another effective work arranged for lute. You should publish your arrangement for voice and lute in the Lute News. Alla Wm Birde.g) In contrast a TRANSCRIPTION is simply a re-writing from one system of notation to another. In the FWVB, Byrd made transcriptions, NOT arrangements. In this instance, lute music is not fitted or adapted to the keyboard instrument. It is just simply transferred directly from one notational system (tablature) to another (grand staff). Byrd's labor was no different than that of a modern transcriber/editor of lute music. Byrd's transcrptions made available lute music on the grand staff for keyboard players who could not read lute tablature, and for those lutenists who preferred to play from pitch notation. Thames's assumption that notation on the grand staff miraculously changes lute music into keyboard music is just as invalid as his notion that lutenists cannot read pitch notation. There are examples of lute music in pitch notation back to the 15th century, and of course modern editions of lute music have for a century used the grand staff, with usually a nominal G tuning. The standard way of notating lute music. Judging from the inclusion of elementary instructions in many early lute tablature books, tablature was originally intended for novice players. But it was easy to print, and survived because of the many scordatura lute tunings in the 17th century. Somone counted 28 of them. Pitch notation would make that jumble of tunings a real mess for even the most skilled player. Tablature was a practical solution. Oh yes, there's a lot more lute music by Byrd than I indicated before. There are a whopping 182 works with lute in the Paston Books alone, albeit many adapted for lute from vocal music (as I said when I first mentioned the Byrd works). Over the years Paul O'Dette and Julian Bream have explored some of this repertory, so it is hardly uncharted territory. Stewart McCoy has published some editions of the songs with lute. Of course, no one has yet studied the dance pieces to determine whether they were done up first as lute or as keyboard music. Byrd studied with Ferabosco, after all. **Of course much lute music was conceived in pitch notation, most likely on the grand staff or in partitura. See Jessie Owens excellent study,
Re: Byrd
Arthur Ness - A helpful, articulate and scholarly member of our list - a nice fellow as well!!! Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Hi to all, It seems that Ness is saying that a keyboard composition, reworked (arranged) for lute, can qualify as an original lute piece. Thames is saying, not so. Do I have this right? I'm a little confused about this thread... I've published several books with Mel Bay Publications of my arrangements for guitar: works by Debussy, Handel, Strauss, Bach, Schubert, Mozart, etc. Even though a lot of creative work goes into these arrangements; in no way would I consider them to now qualify as original guitar compositions. I've had a very busy and tiring week, so forgive me if I'm missing the obvious; but it seems to me that Michael has a valid point about all this. Being a nice person and valued musicologist is not the issue here, is it? James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Luters, I am presently working on a Pavan by Byrd set by Francis Cutting for a program of Elizabethan Ballads and Dances.I put the piece in with a group of Cutting pieces. The Cutting style is evident in his reworking or recomposition of this work. I consider it as original in the way Mr. Cutting has used the lute to express his rendition of the Byrd piece. Would I call this a Cutting composition? NO. I think of it as an original Cutting impression of a keyboard piece by Byrd - in effect an original piece for the lute by Cutting, much as I consider Andres Segovia's Bach Chaconne or his recomposition of DeVisee or Llobet's thinning out + guitaristic coloring of Granados as original works for the guitar...Let the semantic fur fly Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Yes, La Lutine by Fran=E7ois Couperin. I don't know a lute version. Maybe someone could make one for Michael to play on his guitar. ajn - Original Message - From: Marcus Merrin To: lute list Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: Byrd Michael Thames wrote: Auther, your tendency for misrepresentation, and exaggeration is quite obvious! I've never said lutinests were musical illiterates ... Lutine is French for fairy so presumably a lutinest is one who plays the fairy??? Marcus To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: Byrd
Auther, Transcriptions of original keyboard compositions to the lute, are NOT original lute pieces, and transcriptions of original lute pieces to the keyboard, are not keyboard pieces, they are what we village idiots refer to as ARRANGEMENTS, or transcriptions, or neither, just popular tunes of the time, played on what ever instrument was hanging around. Somewhere in the beginning of this debate, you simply made the mistake of calling transcriptions original . We forgive you, it can happen to the best of us at times. If you just said Byrd's, Couperin's, music was arranged by lutenists for the lute, I think we would all agree with you, But throw into the soup this compulsiveness about grand staff is at best a dream, that only someone disconnected with the obvious reality of the situation and history would say, and to keep pressing the issue is really a waste of all our time. I'll give you the benefit of doubt ( which is again pure speculation, and has no basis in fact ) that Weiss wrote in Grand staff, and gave to Bach a copy of the A major suite. That would be it... everything else was written in tab. I do not understand why some guitar players seem intent in portraying lutenists as being musical illiterates who can't read pitch notation. First Matanya, now this guy Thames. I have put a block on Thames's messages and will not read them, or comment on them. (Out of the blue, I received privately a rabid, hate-filled message from Thames. I don't need that.) Auther, your tendency for misrepresentation, and exaggeration is quite obvious! I've never said lutinests were musical illiterates or even hinted at that. I said the preferred notation was tablature for lutenits, as in the case of Weiss, and every other lutenist of any significance. I never said Weiss couldn't read bass clef, only that there's a quote that he could play from a violin score. AS far as my hate filled message, another slight exaggeration on your part. Michael Thames - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 2:40 PM Subject: Re: Byrd Perhaps it is a bit too early to call for a revised edition of Doug's lute history. But with 58 pieces in the Paston lute books, and all the other pieces that Rainer and I listed, quite a bit more than a half dozen works by Byrd have come down to us in versions for lute. As I mentioned in my initial posting, some are arrangements (by name composers such has Cutting and Holborne). And who is to say whether the corantos, pavans and the famous volta, were not first composed as lute pieces, and then keyboardized. As Byrd did with works by Dowland, John Johnson and others. And these works deserve our attention. The Byrd version of Johnson Delight Pavan and Galliard is the earliest one. And it shows that the opening four notes in later versions are not the melody, but a written out ornament. Another reason to favor the Spencer/Robinson/Berger policy of including all relevant versions of a piece in a collected edition. There are eight pieces by Couperin in a theorbo manuscript (Res 1106) at the National Library in Paris. Many of the pieces in that huge manuscript are by de Visee, but most of the Couperin pieces are unattributed. They are also not mentioned in Ledbetter's book. And indeed much lute music in staff notation remains uncharted territory. And there are some very large collections of it. These are the titles in Ms Res 1106: Pastorelle de Couprin Les Silvains de Mr Couprin [mis par de Visee] (twice, once a fragment) Les bergeries rondeau Les delices Les bergeries La Voluptueuze :Menuet de Mr. Couprin I wonder if Benjamin finds them in deVisee's style. As for Couperin's transcriptions on grand staff, I was refering,not to his original keyboard pieces in style luthee. Most of the clavecinistes made such transcriptions (e.g., Couperin, Chambonnieres, and esp. D'Anglebert). Paul has recent recordings of Byrd as well as that early one. See Robin Hood, for example. The fantasia mentioned by Mathias may be the one Stewart published with his article on the Paston Lute Books. But there are three others like it in the Paston books. - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow To: lute list Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 12:22 PM Subject: Re: Byrd At 10:43 AM -0600 7/11/05, Michael Thames wrote: I'm also courious about Couprion. Not being a historian , but able to add 2 and 2 together, one would have expected to see volumes of records made of Couperin's lute suites, what a find that would be! Yet as an avid collector of all baroque lute Cd's that I come across, I've yet to see any lute suites or peices by him. One might also have expected Paul Odette to record the complete Lute Works of William Byrd
Re: Byrd
Michael Thames wrote: Auther, your tendency for misrepresentation, and exaggeration is quite obvious! I've never said lutinests were musical illiterates ... Lutine is French for fairy so presumably a lutinest is one who plays the fairy??? Marcus To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
At 10:43 AM -0600 7/11/05, Michael Thames wrote: I'm also courious about Couprion. Not being a historian , but able to add 2 and 2 together, one would have expected to see volumes of records made of Couperin's lute suites, what a find that would be! Yet as an avid collector of all baroque lute Cd's that I come across, I've yet to see any lute suites or peices by him. One might also have expected Paul Odette to record the complete Lute Works of William Byrd. Here's a quote from DAS History of the lute William Byrd (1542-1623) the most highly regaurded composer of the English Renaissance, wrote no music for the lute. However, lutenists transcribed some of his keyboard and vocal pieces for thier instrument, about a half a dozen of these intabulations survive today I believe Paul Odette's very first commercial release was dedicated to Byrd and Dowland. He must have played all the extant Byrd tabs then. As for Couperin, DeVise arranged at least one piece for theorbo. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
All those arrangements are great, but I'm longing for those original lute peices written by Couperin, in grand staff, that Arthur Ness spoke of.. - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Byrd At 10:43 AM -0600 7/11/05, Michael Thames wrote: I'm also courious about Couprion. Not being a historian , but able to add 2 and 2 together, one would have expected to see volumes of records made of Couperin's lute suites, what a find that would be! Yet as an avid collector of all baroque lute Cd's that I come across, I've yet to see any lute suites or peices by him. One might also have expected Paul Odette to record the complete Lute Works of William Byrd. Here's a quote from DAS History of the lute William Byrd (1542-1623) the most highly regaurded composer of the English Renaissance, wrote no music for the lute. However, lutenists transcribed some of his keyboard and vocal pieces for thier instrument, about a half a dozen of these intabulations survive today I believe Paul Odette's very first commercial release was dedicated to Byrd and Dowland. He must have played all the extant Byrd tabs then. As for Couperin, DeVise arranged at least one piece for theorbo. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Here is the citation: Stewart McCoy, Lost Lute Solos Revealed in a Paston Manuscript, The Lute 26/1 (1986): 21-39. Included is a complete Fantasia by Mr. Birde in facsimile of the Italian tablature, a reconstruction by Stewart and the original part notation. Paston uses Italian tablature,and some of the rubrics are in Spanish. ajn - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness To: Lute Net Cc: Nancy Carlin Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 3:48 PM Subject: Byrd Dear Nancy and others, Here are some sources for Byrd's music for lute and arrangedfor lute. Most seem tobe intabulations of vocal music. --Dublin, Dallis Pupil's Lute Book: songs byByrd. --London, BL, Hirsch M..1353: Coranto and Pavan --Aberystwth, Brogantyn M|S 27: consort song (voice partlacking) --Morley, First Booke(1599/1611): dances and or songs (2 pieces) --Wiley-Park,Weld Lute Book: 2 pieces by Byrd (see new facsimile ed) --Edward Paston Lute Books (5 vols. in London, BL, London, RCM and Tenbury, St. Michael's College): 78 motet arrangements (bks i-v), 15 English songs (bks i-ii), 85 English songs (bk. iii), 4 fanatsias (bk i). Our StewartMcCoy has published a imortant and detaied study of the Paston books. It appeared in the Lute Soc. Journal or _TheLute_ about ten years ago. --Fitzwilliam Verginal Book has Byrds transcrptions of lute music, including JohnJohnson's Delight Pavan, in what is probably the earliest verson of this often copied piece. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
