Re: Leopolis (Was Re: L'vov lute manuscript (Was Re: MO's attacks
Hey Art, ya gotta problem wid N'Yawk (prior to Toisday night, or oily Friday mornin)? I love Baaston, had a lotta good times dere. (OK, time to stop the false dialect). I must admit that as a native New Yorker (now in New Jersey) I rather hoped for a Cub/Sox series. But when the Cubs got knocked out I went back to rooting for the Yankees. Think of the possibilities. A Cubs/Sox series would have benefited us all, we wouldn't have had to worry about which direction we go on our departure as hell would have been pleasantly cool. Now we're speculating whether Roman would enjoy living in Lwow with all those churches. He seems so much like a New York City kinda guy.g Best, Jon
Leopolis (Was Re: L'vov lute manuscript (Was Re: MO's attacks
AJN write// Leopolis, the Latin name for that place. MF//Not to split hairs but Leopolis would be the Greek name for that place. //Mark Farley Dear Mark, It might be Greek to you and me, but it's Latin to most others. For example, Leopolis _is_ the Latin name forr the Lemberg/Lwow Archdioces in Galicia founded in 1376. (Hoffmann's _Liturgical Dictionary_ [1928]) Also my dictionary says it's Latin.. Maybe the Greek and Latin names are the same. In Lvov are Greek, Armenian and Roman churches. It must be quite a melting pot. The city's name is derived from one of its early rulers, someone named Lev. I wonder if Roman has ever been there. arthur.
Re: MO's attacks
Bonjour André! instance, we have in France Les Editions du CNRS, which release french lute composers - that's is not quite as convenient as a fac similé- but at a reasonable price : I have never seen any xerox copy of the CNTS editions ... all the lute players I know just buy them. Then you only know elderly lute players, because most of the interesting parts of Corpus des Luthistes Francais are out of print since 15-20 years :-)) Best regards Bernd Haegemann
Re: L'vov lute manuscript (Was Re: MO's attacks
FROM: Matanya Ophee, INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DATE: 10/13/03 5:02 PM Re: Re: MO's attacks snip MOrphee woteUnfortunately for him and for his misguided predatory philosophy, that is far from being the case. We should be grateful to him and his ilk for the fact that the Franko University Library in Lviv, the Ukraine, refuses to allow anyone to have copies of the Lviv Manuscript or even to acknowledge its existence. Do prove me wrong, if you can. The L'vov (or Lwow) Manuscript, Ms 1400/I in the Ivana Franko Naucnaja Biblioteka is well known in the west. . It has 124 folios and 66 pieces. Most of it was copied by Hans Kernstockh in Cracow around 1555, and includes fantasias and dances by Giovanni Pacoloni, and a galliard attr. to Valentin Bakfark, some Polish songs and dances and lots of intabulations of French chansons, etc. . Paul ODette has even programed pieces from it. The Bakfark piece is in Benko's collected edition. It is probably best called the Kernstock Lute Book, but is also officvcially known as the Strzeskowsky Lute Book after a recent owner, who published some Polish pieces from it. A few months ago someone told me that he had refereed a paper that discussed the Pacoloni dances in that manuscript. Perhaps we'll read about it in one of our journals. There are microfilms of it circulating in the west, allthough I don't have a copy myself. I think someone even told me that there is a facsimile edition published in Poland. It's not a terribly exciting manuscript in my opinion. It also contains Dowland's Farewell Fantasia, although neither the title nor the composer are named in the manuscript. Someone published the Dowland fantasia in a string orchestra arrangement made from the Kernstockh tablature, but the arranger didn't know that the piece was by Dowland. I forget what title they gave it. One reason for confusion about the manuscript is because there are so many names for that city, Lvov, now in the Ukraine. Pohlman lists the manuscript under Lemberg, the Austrian name for Lwow, the Polish name for Leopolis, the Latin name for that place. At various times it has been part of Austria, Germany, Poland, Russia, and the Ukraine, and has had to battle off assaults by Turks, Tartars, Cossacks, and Swedes. Sounds like a city with a sadly violent history. I don't understand why M. Orphee thinks that Roman Turovsky and his ilk (=???) should be blamed because the Franko library doesn't answer its mail. I find it difficult to believe that the library denies owning the manuscript, it has been cited so frequently. In addition to Pohlmann, the manuscript is also listed in Boetticher's RISM inventory, in the Meyer et al. catalogue of lute manuscript in the former East Bloc countries, and probably in my article in New Grove. ajn.
Re: MO's attacks
Dear Andr=E9, =20 I'm afraid that for some of us this debate was an = opportunity to exchange ideas about something very important in our = daily life as lute players, but for some other person, attacking by all = means and not being able to stop at any point even when the others were = up to (I did) is clearly a game. Simply something he does because of = being bored, angry with the world or whatever. Once I've stop taking part, added MO's address to = my blocked list, he keeps insulting me, even in messages posted out of = the debate. He uses what I've in theory said to make me say something = else, which is I think the lowest you can get. For all that, wanted to tell you that in my opinion = bringing back to normal terms the debate is not a collective decision. = This has happened before, and little had to do with the survival of MO = as businessman, which is some people's justification for his reaction. =20 I think that a lot of thing have been said - that freedom of speech - = what if in fact both parties were right: That's relative. Freedom of speech is not just saying what you want to = say about a specific issue, but also being respected when doing it. =20 What I personnaly do and I am not the only one: =20 - Of course I use copy material and free web content (which is bad) - but I also buy from publishers the same fac simil=E9 when I can afford and when they are still in stock ( somethimes I copy them as = well just to make my own annotations) I guess most of us do that, that's what I've been saying I do myself. = There's nothing wrong with using free web content. It is legal and = morally acceptable, and more important: is a reality against which you = can't do much, in case you have something against it. =20 Lute playing is not a cheap activities but its a long lasting story = which is why I still buy publishers instead of using free materials.=20 I am sure that using copy or web sources music will in a way = contribute to the promotion of both the publishers material - what ever the prices = . - that freedom of business - and more important of our instruments and = its music. =20 The more 'free' or 'forbidden' music is on the web - depending of its = own point of view - the better the publisher business, and reverse. =20 We are facing a technological gap - the same one which allow us to = exchange ideas - Business practices have always manage to change and survive - = that change will surely force publishers to create added value to fac = simil=E9 publication (parper, format, comments,price ..), buyers will be = willing to return to purchase ... and use free web sources. =20 When the first train connection appeared in the late 19th between = Paris and Lyon ... that was notorious that this was the end of the trading = activities A couple of interesting points, although the problem of this historical = moment is that business have little possibility of change in order to = survive. Some businessman would just deny that fact, and will blame the = customers, which I find nonsense. That's why I think an editor suffering seriously would be wrong at = blaming people who makes copies. I always wonder if there was a price sensitivity to purchase = materials. For instance, we have in France Les Editions du CNRS, which release french = lute composers - that's is not quite as convenient as a fac simil=E9- but = at a reasonable price : I have never seen any xerox copy of the CNTS = editions ... all the lute players I know just buy them. I think is more a matter of possibility than sensitivity . I have many = of the CNRS books at home (le roy, rippe and others). Reasonable priced, = some of the transcriptions not so precise (in case you need them), but = convenient.=20 Think of this: I go to my country from time to time. I've a couple of = students, some are good players and definitively enthusiastic. They do copies of all the material I take with me, because is the ONLY = way they can have access to that. Before the last crisis started, when the local currency was even with = the us dollar, many of them bought spes editions and many other = material. Now there's no chance. What's the way it should be then? The lute should be played by rich = individuals who can buy the books? Little progress in musical aspect we = would then have. =20 Could we stop the discussion or move to something with a higher = contribution ? This is a question you should address with more precision.=20 In any case, I agree with you. This doesn't help at all. Regards, A --
Re: MO's attacks
Dear All Stop this madness! Im a amateur lute player from Brazil and I sad that discussion is unpropoposital. Lute music is more than it. Lets go back to the Lute Jorge II Dear Andr=E9, =20 I'm afraid that for some of us this debate was an = opportunity to exchange ideas about something very impo rtant in our = daily life as lute players, but for some other person, attacking by all = means and not being able to stop at any point even when the others were = up to (I did) is clearly a game. Simply something he do es because of = being bored, angry with the world or whatever. Once I've stop taking part, added MO's address to = my blocked list, he keeps insulting me, even in message s posted out of = the debate. He uses what I've in theory said to make me say something = else, which is I think the lowest you can get. For all that, wanted to tell you th at in my opinion = bringing back to normal terms the debate is not a colle ctive decision. = This has happened before, and little had to do with the survival of MO = as businessman, which is some people's justification fo r his reaction. =20 I think that a lot of thing have been said - that freedom of speech - = what if in fact both parties were right: That's relative. Freedom of speech is not just saying w hat you want to = say about a specific issue, but also being respected wh en doing it. =20 What I personnaly do and I am not the only one: =20 - Of course I use copy material and free web content (whic h is bad) - but I also buy from publishers the same fac simil=E9 whe n I can afford and when they are still in stock ( somethimes I copy them as = well just to make my own annotations) I guess most of us do that, that's what I've been sayin g I do myself. = There's nothing wrong with using free web content. It i s legal and = morally acceptable, and more important: is a reality ag ainst which you = can't do much, in case you have something against it. =20 Lute playing is not a cheap activities but its a long lasting story = which is why I still buy publishers instead of using free mate rials.=20 I am sure that using copy or web sources music will i n a way = contribute to the promotion of both the publishers material - what ever the prices = . - that freedom of business - and more important of our instruments and = its music. =20 The more 'free' or 'forbidden' music is on the web - depending of its = own point of view - the better the publisher business, and reverse. =20 We are facing a technological gap - the same one which allow us to = exchange ideas - Business practices have always manage to change and surv ive - = that change will surely force publishers to create added v alue to fac = simil=E9 publication (parper, format, comments,price ..), buye rs will be = willing to return to purchase ... and use free web sources. =20 When the first train connection appeared in the late 19th between = Paris and Lyon ... that was notorious that this was the end of the trading = activities A couple of interesting points, although the problem of this historical = moment is that business have little possibility of chan ge in order to = survive. Some businessman would just deny that fact, a nd will blame the = customers, which I find nonsense. That's why I think an editor suffering seriously would be wrong at = blaming people who makes copies. I always wonder if there was a price sensitivity to p urchase = materials. For instance, we have in France Les Editions du CNRS, whi ch release french = lute composers - that's is not quite as convenient as a fac simil=E9- but = at a reasonable price : I have never seen any xerox copy o f the CNTS = editions ... all the lute players I know just buy them. I think is more a matter of possibility than sensitivit y . I have many = of the CNRS books at home (le roy, rippe and others). R easonable priced, = some of the transcriptions not so precise (in case you need them), but = convenient.=20 Think of this: I go to my country from time to time. I' ve a couple of = students, some are good players and definitively enthus iastic. They do copies of all the material I take with me, beca use is the ONLY = way they can have access to that. Before the last crisis started, when the local currency was even with = the us dollar, many of them bought spes editions and ma ny other = material. Now there's no chance. What's the way it should be then? The lute should be p layed by rich = individuals who can buy the books? Little progress in m usical aspect we = would then have. =20 Could we stop the discussion or move to something wit h a higher = contribution ? This is a question you should address with more precisi on.=20 In any case, I agree with you. This doesn't help at all
Re: MO's attacks
At 10:30 AM 10/14/2003 +0200, arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once I've stop taking part, You did? what are you still doing in this thread? added MO's address to = my blocked list, he keeps insulting me, even in messages posted out of = the debate. Which should tell you how stupid it is to put anybody's name into a kill file. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
Dear Roman and All: Really? It reminds me of the Star Trek episode where they were trapped in a loop around aplanet experiencing the same events over and over again! How about some lute music here? Jim Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: LUTE-LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] .netcc: Subject: Re: MO's attacks 10/12/2003 01:26 PM It clearly wasn't an off topic, at least for many of the members who = decided to take part of the debate. However, I agree (even having been = one of the people involved) with you about the definition of ugly = altercation. Let's try to bring peace back. Best, A The situation reminds me of an old Star Trek episode about an evil creature whose strength was proportionate to irritation it was causing. Willing it out of existence by ignoring it saved the ship and the crew. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: MO's attacks
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:20:42 -0400 To: Joe Mayes [EMAIL PROTECTED], arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MO's attacks Sir: Theres really nothing that I can add to the already cogent statements made by Matanya about this matter, other than to tell you that what you are doing is stealing. Joe, we're mostly grown-ups here, and we have already figured out that the matter of this discussion wasn't that, since all essential material is in public domain. The problem is that MO professes a set of ethics that is entirely inconsistent with his own conduct, i. e. he is a common hypocrite. I have defended the man in private FOR YEARS, until I met him in cyberspace and realized what he really is, a soulless type, for whom poetry equals scabrous, and his petty self-interest is the overriding factor in any issue considered, culture included. He is what we call in Yiddish mestechkovyj. Roman It matters not a jot if Matanya were the devil incarnate. We're not dealing in personalities, here, but with a moral dilemma. What this gentleman is doing - in the name of musicians everywhere - is all he can to make music MORE expensive. Speaking for those of us who actually purchase the stuff, I do not appreciate the notion that some one are above doing that very thing. The maker of your lute might not understand your point of view if you told him (her) that the asking price of the instrument was too high - so youve decided to steal it. About laws being unjust and your breaking them for the good of all, etc. - you seem to think of your self as Henry David Thorough or Robin Hood - you are not. Ariel is something entirely different. FYI, he is the best Vihuela Player we have had since the Era of Milan, Narvaez, Daça, etc. And it is our duty to help him stay that way. Here again, it doesn't enter into the discussion if Ariel has sprung fully armed from the head of Zeus complete with vihuela - quite beside the point. Joseph Mayes
Re: MO's attacks. Final, para mi
Sir, there's no way we can have a fair exchange if you don't take the = minimum time to read carefully the emails. =20 Sir: =20 I want to clear up some points in an objective manner, if = possible. Did I call you a thief? Only if what you are doing - taking the = fruits of another's labor without compensation - is stealing. I think it is, = you do not. Fair enough. Your words: There=B9s really nothing that I can add to the already = cogent statements made by Matanya about this matter, other than to tell you that what you = are doing is stealing. You're, in fact, calling me thief, but doesn't really matter. I guess is = just a matter of use of the language. Are you helping the general populace of musicians by what you do? = (some form of protest against high prices) You are not. In fact, it could work that way. By refusing to pay an extremely high = price for something, we could force editors (those who's prices aren't = reasonable) to think about the whole thing again. Funny enough, at any = point I spoke about MO's editions and their prices, because I don't know = them or have little interest. By photocopying music, you actually make music more expensive for everyone else. Publishers must = factor your copying into their prices. If they find they cannot make a profit = while doing this, they will stop doing it, making all of us the poorer. I'm afraid that you're not being quite rigorous. If I can't pay someone's edition, doesn't make any difference to the = company whether I do copies (for personal use) or not. I wouldn't buy = the book anyway. If they have to stop doing editions, we might have to analyze many other = factors than photocopies for students, young musicians or simply people = without the funds. Roman says you are the finest vihuelista of all time (or words to = that effect) I congratulate you. Roman says that Matanya is scum.=20 I if you disagree with what Roman says, you can always tell that directly = to him. I don't think I deserve Roman's compliments (Hoppy is the finest of all = times), and I just know MO from this argument and some other public = information. If MO is rude, or you accuse him of being a Republican, Fascist, Maoist, or what-all = else, These really are not pertinent items. They have little bearing on the salient facts. Wait a sec: I've defended myself after the brutal attacks MO launched against me. No one call him fascist. That word was used in some other context (read = carefully).=20 Maoism and Republicanism are political filiations, and not insults. = Also, I've used the word Maoist in a joke's context, and talking about = was I'm supposed to be according to MO 's perception. Thank you for respecting my opinion. Please accept my good wishes = and my hopes for a change of heart on your part. =20 Thanks, but as I've said, I'm in peace. I do have the right to express = my opinions without being attacked, no matter how far away you are from = them. I was not the one starting with the personal attacks, but I was = the first one proposing a cease, which wasn't accepted, as you can read. Best, A --
Re: MO's attacks
There?s really nothing that I can add to the already cogent statements made by Matanya about this matter, other than to tell you that what you are doing is stealing. Joe, we're mostly grown-ups here, and we have already figured out that the matter of this discussion wasn't that, since all essential material is in public domain. The problem is that MO professes a set of ethics that is entirely inconsistent with his own conduct, i. e. he is a common hypocrite. I have defended the man in private FOR YEARS, until I met him in cyberspace and realized what he really is, a soulless type, for whom poetry equals scabrous, and his petty self-interest is the overriding factor in any issue considered, culture included. He is what we call in Yiddish mestechkovyj. Roman It matters not a jot if Matanya were the devil incarnate. We're not dealing in personalities, here, but with a moral dilemma. Indeed. And it is essentially: Should we listen to a lecture on Armenian culture by an Ottoman Turk? What this gentleman is doing - in the name of musicians everywhere - is all he can to make music MORE expensive. Speaking for those of us who actually purchase the stuff, I do not appreciate the notion that some one are above doing that very thing. I disagree. Firstly: you and MO accused Ariel of stealing, a venture of gratuitous idiocy, IMHO, and actionable as libellous. Theft just doesn't apply here. Secondly: As any psychologist might tell you it takes 2 to tango. MO has his self-interests [and sycophants] and we have ours. He wants to maximize his profit, we want to maximize ours. That Capitalism, FYI. No one is inherently evil in this. MO minimizes his overhead by mostly reusing public domain material and making us pay for it, or obtaining his materials in the countries where a dollar goes a long way. We buy SPES editions instead of his, or use e-editions, or make copies of the same PUBLIC DOMAIN material. Legal, moral, natural. MO cannot blame lutenists for his lack of business acumen. Talk British, but think Yiddish may be a recipe for success , but one would have to be able to talk British, and the man is so vulgar that he makes civilized people ears wilt. The maker of your lute might not understand your point of view if you told him (her) that the asking price of the instrument was too high - so you?ve decided to steal it. About laws being unjust and your breaking them for the good of all, etc. - you seem to think of your self as Henry David Thorough or Robin Hood - you are not. Ariel is something entirely different. FYI, he is the best Vihuela Player we have had since the Era of Milan, Narvaez, Da? etc. And it is our duty to help him stay that way. Here again, it doesn't enter into the discussion if Ariel has sprung fully armed from the head of Zeus complete with vihuela - quite beside the point. Partially, but I also see a Sisiphus at work, quantitatively speaking. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: MO's attacks
Hello Peter et al., I have a friend (one who shall remain nameless) in the US copyright office of the Library of Congress with whom I have recently discussed this issue. As far as I can discern, nobody has any rights to any facsimiles of public-domain manuscripts. The library to hold them can charge exorbitant fees for access if they desire, but once the material is in the world at large, it is legally accessible/reproducible by all. A publisher can hold the rights to any forward or introductory text drafted for a reproduction, or any edits/corrections they add, but that's about it. I stand by my previously expressed opinion: if an activity is legal, feel free to do it (if its morality is suspect, you're old enough to decide for yourself whether or not you should feel guilty afterwards). This is one of those cases where copying from a published facsimile may be legal in the US (and, as such, I wouldn't hold it against anybody who did so), but I personally would feel a little immoral in wantonly xeroxing the lot of it. Thus, I would be more likely to buy the facsimile from whichever publisher endeavored to bring it back to the world. To wantonly copy from facsimiles only increases a publisher's risk in printing facsimiles, making publishers less likely to do so in the future...and I personally don't want to have to pay extremely expensive fees to a holding library to access such stuff when publishers stop taking that risk. Best, Eugene At 08:16 PM 10/10/2003 +0200, Peter Paeffgen wrote: Eugene, thank you very much for bringing this discussion back into low water again! But please, what is the legal situation in the case of a facsimile of manuscripts or printed editions of public domain material? I published a reprint of the Georg Leopold Fuhrmann lute-book (published 1615, reprinted by Junghänel-Päffgen-Schäffer 1975) and someone asked me the other day for permission to publish the music in a newly engraved (or computerized) edition online. The transparencies for printing the facsimile came from the Bibliothèque Royale in Bruxelles and they were extremely expensive. But what did the library have rights on? The music was and is public domain, the book itself could be legally protected ... but for the printer and publisher and not for the library. The Bibliothèque Royale finally had real copyrights on the transparencies they sold to me. The lute player who wants to publish a corrected and newly engraved edition of the pieces has no problems I think. But if he reprinted our reprint of the original print he gets into troubled water. But who will sue him, the Bibliothèque Royale in Bruxelles or me? Good reliable reprints are expensive, Matanya, that's for sure. We know, how many facsimiles have been published which have been done from xerox-copies and not from the original sources. Dangerous! I mean, the word comes from ancient Europe (sorry, I'm in politics as well) and means make it similar (from latin: fac simile) but it really means make it as similar as possible/almost identical. Printruns are small (and getting smaller because so many lutenists use xerox-copies), so cheap facsimiles of lute sources will not be possible as long as the scholarly and aesthetical standards are that high. I mean, as a lute-student I complained about the Minkoff-prizes but ... well. Peter ++ Dr. Peter Päffgen, Sielsdorfer Str. 1a, D-50935 Koeln FON: ++49-221-430 17 27, FAX: ++49-221-943 98 64 Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MO's attacks
Roman It matters not a jot if Matanya were the devil incarnate. We're not dealing in personalities, here, but with a moral dilemma. Indeed. And it is essentially: Should we listen to a lecture on Armenian culture by an Ottoman Turk? What this gentleman is doing - in the name of musicians everywhere - is all he can to make music MORE expensive. Speaking for those of us who actually purchase the stuff, I do not appreciate the notion that some one are above doing that very thing. I disagree. Firstly: you and MO accused Ariel of stealing, a venture of gratuitous idiocy, IMHO, and actionable as libellous. Theft just doesn't apply here. Maybe MO has easier time with Russian than English: OTSUTSTVIE SOSTAVA PRESTUPLENIJA. Secondly: As any psychologist might tell you it takes 2 to tango. MO has his self-interests [and sycophants] and we have ours. He wants to maximize his profit, we want to maximize ours. That Capitalism, FYI. No one is inherently evil in this. MO minimizes his overhead by mostly reusing public domain material and making us pay for it, or obtaining his materials in the countries where a dollar goes a long way. Or where a promise of one goes a long way. We buy SPES editions instead of his, or use e-editions, or make copies of the same PUBLIC DOMAIN material. Legal, moral, natural. MO cannot blame lutenists for his lack of business acumen. Talk British, but think Yiddish may be a recipe for success , but one would have to be able to talk British, and the man is so vulgar that he makes civilized people ears wilt. And vulgarity aside, MO's comments are inappropriate, inopportune and out of place. RT
Re: MO's attacks
Roman It matters not a jot if Matanya were the devil incarnate. We're not dealing in personalities, here, but with a moral dilemma. Indeed. And it is essentially: Should we listen to a lecture on Armenian culture by an Ottoman Turk? What this gentleman is doing - in the name of musicians everywhere - is all he can to make music MORE expensive. Speaking for those of us who actually purchase the stuff, I do not appreciate the notion that some one are above doing that very thing. I disagree. Firstly: you and MO accused Ariel of stealing, a venture of gratuitous idiocy, IMHO, and actionable as libellous. Theft just doesn't apply here. Maybe MO has easier time with Russian than English: OTSUTSTVIE SOSTAVA PRESTUPLENIJA, ie. lack of criminal content. Secondly: As any psychologist might tell you it takes 2 to tango. MO has his self-interests [and sycophants] and we have ours. He wants to maximize his profit, we want to maximize ours. That Capitalism, FYI. No one is inherently evil in this. MO minimizes his overhead by mostly reusing public domain material and making us pay for it, or obtaining his materials in the countries where a dollar goes a long way. Or where a promise of one goes a long way. We buy SPES editions instead of his, or use e-editions, or make copies of the same PUBLIC DOMAIN material. Legal, moral, natural. MO cannot blame lutenists for his lack of business acumen. Talk British, but think Yiddish may be a recipe for success , but one would have to be able to talk British, and the man is so vulgar that he makes civilized people ears wilt. And vulgarity aside, MO's comments are inappropriate, inopportune and out of place. RT
Re: MO's attacks
At 12:50 PM 10/13/2003 -0400, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you, Eugene!!! This should make any further debate on this pointless. I surely would join in this congratulation! but perhaps not on the same parts of Eugene's post Roman is congratulating him for. This is the part I like: To wantonly copy from facsimiles only increases a publisher's risk in printing facsimiles, making publishers less likely to do so in the future...and I personally don't want to have to pay extremely expensive fees to a holding library to access such stuff when publishers stop taking that risk. Well said. According to Roman's world view it is morally acceptable to copy anything that is in the public domain, even if that material has been brought before the public through the efforts and investment of somebody else. It is easy to find rationales for exploiting the work of others, but the short-sighted instant gratification urge to do so, completely ignores that doing so, is to damage the entire system of access to sources we have lived with for decades, and replacing it with nothing of equal value of or utility. A data base of lute material? administered by whom? collected by whom? maintained by whom, and at what cost? how big a coin would you have to pay the editor of this material, and who would pay for it? And what would you use for sources? The Complete Works of Dowland as published by Diana Poulton, or so one's else work doing the same research from scratch? Wishful thinking of the kind Ariel is engaging in is easy to come by when you are an impressionable pipsqueek who is overwhelmed by his present unfavorable economic situation. But deliberate fraud of the kind Roman is promoting is something else altogether. In that campaign the end Justifies the means, including of slanderous innuendos about my private dealings with Russian composers, which are none of Roman's business and definitely OT for this list, anything goes. Problem is that the End Roman is seeking, the complete destruction of the print music industry, and definitely the destruction of those publishers who have the gall to ask for money in exchange for lute books, is not going to hurt Roman's prospects at his day job. He will continue to support his family, as he should, no matter what happens to the lute. Consider this next time you kiss his poetic civil ass. One more thing: the entire thesis would have been plausible from _Roman_'s point of view, if all the known lute books that ever existed and are known to exist today, would have been published in facsimiles that he can rip off. Unfortunately for him and for his misguided predatory philosophy, that is far from being the case. We should be grateful to him and his ilk for the fact that the Franko University Library in Lviv, the Ukraine, refuses to allow anyone to have copies of the Lviv Manuscript or even to acknowledge its existence. Do prove me wrong, if you can. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
I take the privilege of a newbie, and that to comment without knowledge of the participants. Fifteen years of running email lists, since before the web. To all of you on this thread I say that the vituperation that is off topic (the topic being the nature of the lute and the nature of the music, and the enjoyment of the music) is cluttering my email, and that of the rest of this list. Ariel, MO, Roman and others are arguing matters of copyright and the publications of various people. The writer, or editor, of a book can say anything he wants to say. Just because it is in print doesn't mean it is right. These issues should only be relevant if they are promoting their product to naive lutenists on this list, and then the issue should be a personal argument off list. If this were to happen on one of the lists I run (unmoderated) I would write an email to each of the parties off list and ask them to stick to the topic of general interest. And I thought I'd be anathema by sticking to my guns on the lute that isn't traditional, I guess I was wrong (and I thank those who have informed me well). There is a matter of good manners, and that doesn't only involve the treatment of one's particular correspondant, it also involves the involvement of an entire list in an internecine war. It is not a matter of censorship, which can't and shouldn't be done on an open listserv. It is a matter of self control, and keeping the argument from becoming an op ed column on the list. I intentionally don't speak to the issue at hand. Best, Jon
Re: MO's attacks
Jon Murphy wrote: To all of you on this thread I say that the vituperation that is off topic (the topic being the nature of the lute and the nature of the music, and the list. Ariel, MO, Roman and others are arguing matters of copyright and the publications of various people. The writer, or editor, of a book can say anything he wants to say. Just because it is in print doesn't mean it is right. These issues should only be relevant if they are promoting their product to naive lutenists on this list, and then the issue should be a personal argument off list. If this were to happen on one of the lists I run (unmoderated) I would write an email to each of the parties off list and ask them to stick to the topic of general interest. I could not agree more Jon. While this discussion does raise some interesting points, it is clearly off topic. Furthermore, the parties involved have crossed the line of civility on several occasions and I personally have no interest in seeing them duke it out. This is not a matter of freedom of speech, it is a matter of good manners and respect for others on the list. This bar brawl could have been avoided if the gentlemen involved would have agreed to take it outside so as to avoid involving the rest of us in this ugly altercation. Serge-André
Re: MO's attacks. Final, para mi
__ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org From: arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:05:59 +0200 bring back the exchange to a decent point. Just a proposition. I'm 27, if that matters. A My twins are 3 1/2, and they are now into testing our limits, just like MO RT
Re: MO's attacks
Sir: Theres really nothing that I can add to the already cogent statements made by Matanya about this matter, other than to tell you that what you are doing is stealing. Joe, we're mostly grown-ups here, and we have already figured out that the matter of this discussion wasn't that, since all essential material is in public domain. The problem is that MO professes a set of ethics that is entirely inconsistent with his own conduct, i. e. he is a common hypocrite. I have defended the man in private FOR YEARS, until I met him in cyberspace and realized what he really is, a soulless type, for whom poetry equals scabrous, and his petty self-interest is the overriding factor in any issue considered, culture included. He is what we call in Yiddish mestechkovyj. The maker of your lute might not understand your point of view if you told him (her) that the asking price of the instrument was too high - so youve decided to steal it. About laws being unjust and your breaking them for the good of all, etc. - you seem to think of your self as Henry David Thorough or Robin Hood - you are not. Ariel is something entirely different. FYI, he is the best Vihuela Player we have had since the Era of Milan, Narvaez, Daça, etc. And it is our duty to help him stay that way. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: MO's attacks
Dear Mr. Mayes, simplifying things, once more, doesn't necessary helps to make a point on something. Clearly I'm not Robin Hood, and actually matters little who I am. Once more: be kind to read carefully all the posted emails, and you'll see immediately that you're doing a curious use of my words to say something else than what I've actually said. The truth is that in any case, you're not God, the policeman or any moral authority valid for me to tell whether I do steal or not. According to my values, I've exposed why do I think photocopying might be morally acceptable. Being still coherent to my values, I've defended that position, shared by many other musicians (much more than what you would imagine). However, I respect you opinion. Best, A
Re: MO's attacks
At 12:21 PM 10/11/2003 -0400, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that MO professes a set of ethics that is entirely inconsistent with his own conduct, i. e. he is a common hypocrite. Roman insists on repeating this accusation, without any particulars of what this conduct may be. Some vague statements about somebody in Moscow who does not like me, which does not surprise me a bit, and some obscure references to my less than immaculate treatment of provincial composers, whatever the hell that means. Of course I have given some Russian composers the boot, after looking at their crap. Of course I keep on receiving, in spite of that, reams and reams of manuscripts by Russian composers who wish to be included in my Russian Collection, and of course I keep on rejecting most of it. And there are guitarists who think that just because I financed, out of my own private pocket, Alexei Zimakov's trip to the US in 1991, together with his teacher Nikolai Komolyatov, I would be doing that again and again because every guitarist and lutenist in Russia knows they have a rich uncle in the US and his name is Matanya Ophee. Roman is very careful to avoid specifics. For two reasons: he does not know anything about my actual dealings with composers, and should he make one specific claim here that he could not substantiate, he knows I could take him to the cleaners. Some explanation of this Sharomyzhnik expletive Roman used in my regard. It refers to a beggar who comes and asks for food. I accept this charge with pride and honor. It was through my begging and pleading that I was able to discover the whereabouts of the Koenigsberg manuscript, a place that was kept secret from John Ward and Diana Poulton by the fellow who found it. It was through my importuning and pestering of several Russian guitarists that I was able to unearth the Ten Etudes of Giulio Regondi, a work that has now been recorded in its entirety by 4 guitarists, and is in the repertoire of many more. And my dealings with Russian museums to secure the rights for the Swan Manuscript and the Moscow Weiss, were not exactly an exercise in genteel diplomacy. Should I get an inkling of who might have some other materials I am looking for, rest assure that I will do whatever it takes, including groveling in the dust at the feet of whoever has it, to obtain the music. I have defended the man in private FOR YEARS, Why, thank you. First I hear of this. And what exactly were you defending me against? until I met him in cyberspace and realized what he really is, a soulless type, for whom poetry equals scabrous, and his petty self-interest is the overriding factor in any issue considered, culture included. Same condescending piece of elitist crap we have heard from you before. You are the Cultured One, the Artist, the Poet, and all the rest of us are not in your hallowed circle. The truth of the matter is that when you met me in cyber space, you met me in an altercation regarding your Sautscheck fraud. Of course this was to you a soulless affront, mainly because I was willing to put into words what many of your soi-disant friends were afraid to pronounce. Since then, you came out as a true vindictive stalker, attacking me for everything and anything you can find. When my only real crime was that I refused to kiss your culture poetic ass. As for my petty self-interest: can you please explain why Ariel's petty-self interests, so eloquently argued here, is acceptable to you, and my petty-self interests are not? Why should I be reluctant to protect that in which I invested more money than you can imagine and many years of hard labor? what's wrong with arguing for maintaining the _potential_ of this publishing venture against the onslaught of thieves? yes, I know. In your pervert morality, asking money for a book is wrong. Asking money for playing a live concert or for an instrument is not. And why asking money for a painting is OK? why don't you share the fruits of your work for free? Who is the hypocrite then? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
At 11:31 AM 10/11/2003 +0200, arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't play for both: fascists, and people like you. There's no price for that. Interesting. When you play in Spain, do you check the political credentials of anybody who comes in the door? How do you know that you have not in fact played in front of people who still remember Francisco Franco fondly? As for people like me, I agree with you. You have never played in front of me, and since there is no one in the whole wide world who is like me, I am one of a kind, sui generis, you have never played in front of people like me and never will. You're the one with the particular moral, so let the stupid out of fashion idealists-Marxists-whatever like me be decent and poor. Well put. You have your morality and I have mine. Get a life, you sound too frustrated. Not at all. I have had along and productive life, and I am basically a very happy man. I do what I want to do and I do it well. Like your friend Roman told you, I am only trying to protect my domain, my investment in time and money and inspiration and creativity, against the onslaught of thieves like you who will find any rationale possible to defend the indefensible. Mrs. Minkoff is not exactly a close friend of mine. I used to be a dealer for her books many years before OMI came into being, and for quite some time she was a dealer for my editions in Switzerland and France. She is a colleague and a former business associate. All I know about her business is that some books I used to sell, like the Saizenay Manuscript, are no longer in print and no chance it will ever be reprinted, no matter what it says on her web site. The Danby manuscript, prepared for her by Tim Crawford, has been in the planning stage for years by now and if she is reluctant to throw good money after bad, and the music is NOT available to you because of that, you can start thinking of why this is happening, and if you and your feebleminded morality have anything to do with that. And BTW, I bought from her practically every single guitar and lute book she ever published. When I was a dealer, I got a regular dealer's discount. And when I stopped being a dealer, I paid the full price. I have on hand some 60-70 books published by Minkoff. Some of the best purchases of books I have ever made in my life. They will remain in my collection a long time after I have gone. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
Roman is very careful to avoid specifics. For two reasons: he does not know anything about my actual dealings with composers, and should he make one specific claim here that he could not substantiate, he knows I could take him to the cleaners. Clean thyself first. Some explanation of this Sharomyzhnik expletive Roman used in my regard. It refers to a beggar who comes and asks for food. No. It means one uninterested in paying. And it is not an expletive. I accept this charge with pride and honor. It was through my begging and pleading that I was able to discover the whereabouts of the Koenigsberg manuscript, a place that was kept secret from John Ward and Diana Poulton by the fellow who found it. Discover? Paul O'Dette told you where it was. Same condescending piece of elitist crap we have heard from you before. You are the Cultured One, the Artist, the Poet, and all the rest of us are not in your hallowed circle. The truth of the matter is that when you met me in cyber space, you met me in an altercation regarding your Sautscheck fraud. Of course this was to you a soulless affront, mainly because I was willing to put into words what many of your soi-disant friends were afraid to pronounce. Since then, you came out as a true vindictive stalker, attacking me for everything and anything you can find. When my only real crime was that I refused to kiss your culture poetic ass. You may do that to your own. And with this you go to my kill-file. Get you quick-thrills on Classical Guitar NG or somewhere else. And if you ever insult or use vulgarity against any member of Polyhymnion Well, don't make me hurt your feelings. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org
Re: MO's attacks
At 06:02 PM 10/11/2003 -0400, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I accept this charge with pride and honor. It was through my begging and pleading that I was able to discover the whereabouts of the Koenigsberg manuscript, a place that was kept secret from John Ward and Diana Poulton by the fellow who found it. Discover? Paul O'Dette told you where it was. Like hell he did. This is one of the big lies spread by you know who. Sigitas Silinskas wrote to Diane Poulton, in the mid 70s, telling her that the manuscript was in the Academic Library in Vilnius, and sent her a photocopy of the first page. It was her student Tim Crawford who identified that photocopy as the first page of the Koenigsberg manuscript. She wrote to John Ward with these news. I have a copy of her letter. No one knew where was the Academic Library in Vilnius, since there is no such listings in any directory of libraries. When I told John Ward that Silinskas offered me some arrangements of his from that manuscript, he told me that there is only one thing he wishes to see before he dies, and that's the Koenigsberg manuscript. On my next visit to Esztergom, Silinskas asked me to introduced him to Daniel Benko in Budapest. I drove him myself, made the introduction, and was present when Silinskas gave to Benko that piece of paper which the latter passed on to O'Dette. I have a copy of that too. I did not discover the manuscript, Silinskas did, but would not say to anyone where it was. My contribution was simply to understand that the words Academic Library refer to the Biblioteka Akademia Nauk, and to find a way to that library, during Soviet times, bypassing Silinskas. Jonas Tamulionis who made that bypass possible was at the time the Secretary of the Vilnius branch of the Soviet Composers Union and I don't need to tell you what a powerful position that was. If O'Dette truly believes that he is the one who brought the news about the location of the manuscript to the world, he is gravely mistaken, and holding such a view is a cowardly insult to the memory of Diana Poulton. You may do that to your own. And with this you go to my kill-file. Thank God for small favors. Get you quick-thrills on Classical Guitar NG or somewhere else. Which is why you, who doe snot even own a guitar, hangs around there? And if you ever insult or use vulgarity against any member of Polyhymnion You will do what? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks. Final, para mi
At 11:02 PM 10/11/2003 +0200, arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gentlemen, My two days holiday is about to end, and I guess this debate could go on for ever, which in any case can perfectly happen without me. Best news I heard all day. the less you post here about your lofty morality, the better off this would be, IMHO. A matter of discussion's method: you can defend your opinion without attacking any specific individual and without taking the argument to a personal terrain, at least in the lute world. So now you want to control the method of debate? I have news for you. Never works in an unmoderated discussion group. If you do not like the way some people express their opinions, you may consider that some people may not like the way you express yours. No matter what you personally believe, there is no way one way of expression is more correct than another. That's what MO has been doing, after what I had to defend myself, until I've realized how much I was wasting my time. He was rude from the begin, and he actually recognized that with pride. Exactly right. When you express ideas that goes against the very foundation of my existence as a publisher, I will defend myself and my colleagues any which way I can. On the other hand, with some other people there was quite a fair and reasonable exchange (Eugene, for example, although we do not agree either). Mr. Mayes just took the word to call me thief and some other things, when if he agrees 100% with MO he could have only said that. We weren't talking about whether Ariel is making or not copies or trying to be the new Robin Hood or Mao, but in general, defending a general appreciation about something. If we can do it that way, if we can't do abstractions, let's forget holding any future conversation about thinks in which we might disagree. Miss Manners is not welcome in these here parts. If you can't stand the heat of some discussions, the door out is that away MO has right now replied to a private mail I've sent to him. Shall I keep on going? It was? sorry about that. I thought I told you specifically that I do not wish to communicate with you privately. I would strongly advise you to refrain from sending me any private mail. I would consider this as harassment I will leave this debate now, because our perception of reality and things is so different that I don't think we can even find a common definition for morality or thief. You have that right. Keep your inane politics to yourself. If you have anything cogent to say about lute music, I am sure you would be welcome. In the meantime, hasta la vista, baby. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
At 06:02 PM 10/11/2003 -0400, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And with this you go to my kill-file. Get you quick-thrills on Classical Guitar NG or somewhere else. And if you ever insult or use vulgarity against any member of Polyhymnion Well, don't make me hurt your feelings. This is a practical question: if you put me in your kill file, how would you know who I insult and how? So this is a test, based on Roman's declaration that he put me in his kill file: Polyhymnion is a stupid pretension to a simple Internet function, and anybody who falls for it is a naive sycophant of Roman Turovsky. (You see, I got my sycophants, you got yours). Now let' see what happens. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
At 02:24 PM 10/10/2003 +0200, arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the beginning, I find morally unacceptable the = trading and private ownership of rights over the artistic-intelectual = production of someone who died centuries ago. Minkoff has nothing to do = with Vallet's efforts, and if I need to copy their edition for private = use, I would do it without having to bow my head or any other part of my = body. Obviously you do not understand that the discussion is not about ownership over the artistic-intellectual production of someone who died centuries ago, but about the ownership of the rights over the object in which this artistic-intellectual production is found. There is nothing to prevent you from going to the original manuscript, wherever it is found, and negotiate with the owner of that original for the rights to copy it. Once you find out how expensive this may turn out to be, and once you find out how expensive it would be to produce a copy of the whole thing in a way that it can be used, you can understand that exploiting someone else's investment without permission is a dishonest activity. Besides, your own moral convictions are besides the point. It is illegal to do. Fair use does not come into the equation. No one would mind if you copied one or two pieces for your own private use. But the moment you copied the whole thing, you are using someone else's work. In most of what someone like you would call a developed country, killing = is illegal, but using the laws some specific sectors can at the same = time commit mass killing, bomb civilians, create situations of extreme = poverty etc. I would then be more careful when defending laws and legal = systems. So what do you want to talk about? lute music or global politics? The reason why people steal books, copy cd's and videos, is the = irrationality of the market, which is based only in terms of benefits, = and not in people's necessities and possibilities. That's bullshit. If benefits were the only consideration, no one would ever publish lute books. There is a lot more money to be made in real estate, the stock market, gold futures, and selling used cars. Mrs. Minkoff is not the only publisher of lute books. She happens to be one of the oldest in the business, a business started by her late husband Yuval Minkoff, who was born in the same city as I. He was a book collector who got in the reprint business in other fields altogether. Lute books is a small fraction of their entire catalogue. If this was the only thing they published, they would have been out of business a long time ago. -If they had acceptable prices, people wouldn't have to steel them. They = are the only responsible for that. Acceptable to whom? indigents like you? did you ever try to figure out how much it cost to produce a printed book? This irrationality comes directly = from the legal system you're defending. So you want to advocate toppling the legal system? and replacing it with another? we have seen this kind of madness before. Ask your friend Roman Turovsky about the Soviet system of state ownership of intellectual property. What I find criminal, is the particular idea of giving access to culture = (and every other basic need) only to the people who can pay for it. So what do you propose? a world governmental system that will give everybody access to everything anytime they get the urge? who will finance it? the tax payers? the tooth fairy, or Uncle Karl? I don't think I'm offending any member of this list by exposing my = points of view. You're the one being rude, not knowing even what many = lutenists would think about this items in other places of the world = where life isn't as easy and pleasant as it is for you. Of course I am being rude. On purpose. You are making too many assumptions here without having a clue about who I am and where I come from. You are a newbie to this list, regardless how many years you have been playing the lute before we heard of you. I suggest you examine the archives of the list before jumping in with your asinine insinuations about the easy and pleasant life Americans have. -- Using the same logical thinking, this is what comes: If I don't have the money, I shouldn't then buy- have the right to what = I want-need-like to have. That's right. If you don't have money for a new car, you buy an old one. If you don't have money for a car, you walk. No one owes you the comfort being enjoyed by others. If I don't have food and can't buy it, I should starve. That's bullshit propaganda. No one starves to death in Spain, or Europe or the US, and not even in South America. The tax payers take care of that. If I can't afford having clothes, then no problem: go naked. More of the same bullshit propaganda. No one goes naked. Ah, you don't have the money for new clothes by Versace or Gucci? you buy cheap jeans. We're not talking about fancy cars, but about the elements we use for
Re: MO's attacks
Dear all, I think I had too much. Mr. MO's comedy is simply too much for me, although I've learned interesting things from him, like the fact that in South America no one starves to death... how good the tax payers are. What a nice and generous world the one you built in your own mind. I guess the there's only one thing worst than someone without principles: an ignorant without principles. In any case, and I wont waist more time replying to a man with your deficiencies . I'll ignore your comments about Marxist's propaganda. even better: I'll ignore the whole email, and your existence. I'll cheat myself, and I'll try hard to believe that people like you doesn't exist in this world . You're not a rival to argue with me about politics, as you ignore much more than what you know, but you don't even see it that way. You'll keep printing, I'll keep buying what I think is fair, and copying what I don't think is convenient. If you go out of business, I' ll be sad for you. You're right Roman, I shouldn't waist a single second with this Clinton's fan.
Re: MO's attacks
At 06:00 PM 10/10/2003 +0200, arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear all, I think I had too much. But you keep coming for more... I'll ignore your comments about Marxist's propaganda. even better: I'll ignore the whole email, and your existence. That's your choice to make. I can also promise you that I shall not ignore you and your existence. Anytime you come in here with the expression of your petty pecuniary concerns and try to teach others about what's right or wrong, rest assured I will come down on you like a ton of bricks. I'll cheat myself, and I'll try hard to believe that people like you doesn't exist in this world . You're not a rival to argue with me about politics, as you ignore much more than what you know, but you don't even see it that way. What I see is that this is not a forum for the discussion of world politics, but lute music. Your political concerns are of no concern to me, and I suspect, to many others in here. You'll keep printing, I'll keep buying what I think is fair, and copying what I don't think is convenient. If you go out of business, I' ll be sad for you. You're right Roman, I shouldn't waist a single second with this Clinton's fan. What Clinton got to do with all this? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
At 19:04 10.10.2003, Eugene Braig wrote: Maybe I'm a touch naive, but I find this debate on the use of printed music aimless and a bit silly. The whole whole thing very simply should be reduced to: -if an activity is legal, feel free to do it (if its morality is suspect, you're old enough to decide for yourself whether or not you should feel guilty afterwards); -if an activity is not legal, do not do it; -if you feel a law is unjust or contrary to social values, strive to change it in favor of breaking it. Of course, I am not referring to conducting the business of life under an oppressive, tyrannical regime; I am discussing the use of copyrighted material. Access to printed lute music is not an unalienable human right. Like it or not, music is not bread...or freedom. If some book is too expensive or published by a company against which you hold some perceived morality gripe, there are plenty others that are not. Choose them and influence the market by voting with your dollars. If this makes access to some material more involved and time consuming, so be it; all the originals are in public domain and most should be accessible through proper channels. I have too many friends who are struggling to eke out a meager existence through the sale of copyrighted stuff (mostly recorded music) to disrespect the laws that protect them. Eugene Eugene, thank you very much for bringing this discussion back into low water again! But please, what is the legal situation in the case of a facsimile of manuscripts or printed editions of public domain material? I published a reprint of the Georg Leopold Fuhrmann lute-book (published 1615, reprinted by Junghänel-Päffgen-Schäffer 1975) and someone asked me the other day for permission to publish the music in a newly engraved (or computerized) edition online. The transparencies for printing the facsimile came from the Bibliothèque Royale in Bruxelles and they were extremely expensive. But what did the library have rights on? The music was and is public domain, the book itself could be legally protected ... but for the printer and publisher and not for the library. The Bibliothèque Royale finally had real copyrights on the transparencies they sold to me. The lute player who wants to publish a corrected and newly engraved edition of the pieces has no problems I think. But if he reprinted our reprint of the original print he gets into troubled water. But who will sue him, the Bibliothèque Royale in Bruxelles or me? Good reliable reprints are expensive, Matanya, that's for sure. We know, how many facsimiles have been published which have been done from xerox-copies and not from the original sources. Dangerous! I mean, the word comes from ancient Europe (sorry, I'm in politics as well) and means make it similar (from latin: fac simile) but it really means make it as similar as possible/almost identical. Printruns are small (and getting smaller because so many lutenists use xerox-copies), so cheap facsimiles of lute sources will not be possible as long as the scholarly and aesthetical standards are that high. I mean, as a lute-student I complained about the Minkoff-prizes but ... well. Peter ++ Dr. Peter Päffgen, Sielsdorfer Str. 1a, D-50935 Koeln FON: ++49-221-430 17 27, FAX: ++49-221-943 98 64 Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MO's attacks
At 01:17 PM 10/10/2003 -0400, Roman Turovsky I got it. Must be the pimp. Reread: We all understand that MO sermon on morality is equivalent to one given on chastity by a professional whore. What's questioned is your immaculate business practices, specifically: procurement of materials. Ch'ja b korova mychala, a tvoja b molchala. And what may be these procurements of materials you may be referring to? I would strongly advise you to be sure of your facts before you say anything that might turn out to be libelous. If you get my drift... And saying nothing at all, would amount to slander by innuendo. let's hear it now... Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
At 07:38 PM 10/10/2003 +0200, arielabramovich wrote: This is again, a matter of values. If I believe that any law is unfair, apart from trying to change that, I would consider breaking them as well, if I believe that would help to bring a substantial change in the direction pointed by my moral values (again). This is a point upon which we will have to differ; I hope we can do so civilly. Of course, in knowingly breaking a law, one essentially agrees to submit oneself to legal consequences if the governing authority involved discovers the indiscretion. -Access to printed music, for us musicians, should be an unalienable right, because we live from making music. Also, I would say that you cannot separate so easily items, normally everything function with the same logic within the same system. As nowadays access to the manuscripts isn't so easy to get in many places, we can't easily speak about public domain. In many cases there are no alternatives to expensive editions, as you might know. In the other hand, I've said a few times that I do buy the books with reasonable prices, from the first email I wrote about this subject. Access to some printed music is available to all musicians, certainly anybody on this list because, thanks to its public domain (PD) status, a good deal of lute music has been made available online through the gratis work of many benevolent individuals. In the few instances I've felt obliged to seek manuscripts or old, PD publications, I have been fairly successful in swapping xerographic copies or cyber-facsimiles from various scholars, artists, and collectors, both here and overseas; there tends to be a lot of community support for off-the-beaten-path artists like luters. A bit post-lute, but one cyber-manuscript I sought to use, Paganini's Sonata per Rovene, was barely legible: not so much because of image quality, but because Paganini's scratch was barely legible. It took me a great many hours to turn it into something useful. I would much rather have defrayed the expense of my time amongst others in the market through a publisher (if only somebody had published that damned thing!). Legal access to some music is simply monetarily expensive. Knowing this (and knowing I am severely limited by my day-job salary), I tend to buy cheap music or invest my time in making legally free stuff workable. I do, as many other musicians, recordings for small-medium labels trying to survive selling copyrighted stuff. Their crisis is not caused by the smart people making copies of their production, although I personally wouldn't copy their cd's. but I wouldn't go mad if I see any copy of a record of mine at someone's collection. Again, I think this is a point upon which we will have to differ. I wouldn't think of copying your recordings, Ariel. If I were to hear and like them, I would certainly consider buying them, even if I have to scrimp and save a while to do so. Best, Eugene
Re: MO's attacks
I will discreetly limit myself to relay that your reputation 'round Moscow is that of a shyster and shiromyzhnik [sic!]. RT At 01:17 PM 10/10/2003 -0400, Roman Turovsky I got it. Must be the pimp. Reread: We all understand that MO sermon on morality is equivalent to one given on chastity by a professional whore. What's questioned is your immaculate business practices, specifically: procurement of materials. Ch'ja b korova mychala, a tvoja b molchala. And what may be these procurements of materials you may be referring to? I would strongly advise you to be sure of your facts before you say anything that might turn out to be libelous. If you get my drift... And saying nothing at all, would amount to slander by innuendo. let's hear it now... Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
At 08:16 PM 10/10/2003 +0200, Peter Paeffgen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good reliable reprints are expensive, Matanya, that's for sure. I know that. One facsimile I did, in half tone, the Swan Manuscript from St. Petersburg, cost me over $16,000 to produce. In 1994. I sold a grand total of 135 copies of it since then. That's an average of 15 copies a year. No copies at all have been sold in the last 4-5 years. The editors, Tim Crawford and Pierre-François Goy, have worked for a long time preparing this edition. I can well understand their frustration on the low level of royalties they got in the past for this, and on the complete lack of royalties in the last few years. The cash outlay for the Koenigsberg Manuscript was not as high, as the micorfilms were supplied by the Vilnius Library in exchange for printed copies of the book, and the information about the location of the manuscript, were secured from a local Lithuanian composer, Jonas Tamulionis, in exchange for a subscription of the American Journal of Succulents and Cacti and the publication of some of his music in the Russian Collection V. Moreover, the editors, Arthur J. Ness and John M. Ward, have donated their services to the project. If I counted the hundred of hours I personally spent in the dark room preparing the plates from one of the worst microfilms I have ever seen (before computers and scanners and Photoshop), at the standard rates for this kind of work, it was just as expensive to produce, particularly as it was a hard cover edition. Technically speaking, I made a lot of money on this book, money I lost entirely as soon as I got into the MoLA series. It all evens out. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
Dear Eugene, definitively we can have an exchange of opinions without forgetting our = manners. I've never been rude to anyone before I was attacked. =20 =20 =20 This is a point upon which we will have to differ; I hope we can do so = civilly. Of course, in knowingly breaking a law, one essentially = agrees to=20 submit oneself to legal consequences if the governing authority = involved=20 discovers the indiscretion. Fine. But I would be more worried about my principles than about the = legal consequences. And according to my moral, being caught is not the main reason for not = doing something =20 =20 Again, I think this is a point upon which we will have to differ. I=20 wouldn't think of copying your recordings, Ariel. If I were to hear = and=20 like them, I would certainly consider buying them, even if I have to = scrimp=20 and save a while to do so. It can happen that some individual wants to buy the cd, but can't do = it. I give you en example: all my friends in my country. Of course, if someone has the money, there's no reason why he/she should = copy it, besides a totally different understanding of moral, which can = perfectly happen. Best, Ariel. --
Re: MO's attacks
Hello all, I find this discussion very interesting, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth. I'm a professional musician and private teacher of guitar and lute. In a sense the real issue is a moral one, because I don't think anyone is really making much money playing lute, or selling lute books (or guitar, for that matter!) I could be wrong. I sympathize with Ariel's ideas, (I've photocopied a lot over years, unfortunately) but I tend to agree more with Mantanya's. To follow Ariel's logic, if someone calls him to play for a gig, saying they're poor and need him to play for a very reduced fee; should he do it? It's not his music, it belongs to the world, right? If I want to buy a Cezar Mateus lute that sells for 5,000 dollars, but I only have 1000 dollars, should he sell it to me for that price? After all, he didn't invent the lute, or grow the trees (well, maybe he did!); what right does he have to charge me for all the hard work and study, and financial investment he's put into his business? :) I think this is one reason libraries exist, for people such as myself, and Ariel, etc. who don't have the funds to buy everything, especially expensive editions. I'm lucky to have access to a large collection of lute music at UCSB in Santa Barbara, CA. Also regarding Roman's thought about CD's; you can buy them very cheaply now and burn all the CD's you want for very little outlay. Technology always is one step ahead it seems. That's it for now, stepping into the 'fray' for the first time here is a little scary, I must say! Sincerely, James Edwards Cambria, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: MO's attacks
At 03:25 PM 10/10/2003 -0400, Roman Turovsky wrote: material. Access to printed lute music is not an unalienable human right. Like it or not, music is not bread...or freedom. To some it's both. Of course, you are correct...to a certain degree. But again, I was not trying to address the conducting of the business of life under an oppressive, tyrannical regime. In most places of the world music is legally available to everybody. Nobody would deny me the right to procure transportation; I can't afford a Ferrari so I drive a used Saturn. Nobody would deny me the right to sustenance; I can't afford to nightly sup on caviar, so I have come to favor the burrito place on the corner. Nobody would deny me the right to make music; I can't afford Minkoff Editions, so I swap for xerographic copies of PD material amongst friends.
Re: MO's attacks
I will discreetly limit myself to relay that your reputation 'round Moscow is that of a shyster and shiromyzhnik [sic!]. In that case, you resort to slander by innuendo, since you will not say exactly who in Moscow said anything about me, and how reliable that opinion was. Obviously, you have no direct personal knowledge of my immaculate business practices, specifically: procurement of materials, and repeating this kind of nonsense in public is definitely actionable. Just keep on pissing me off like that, and we shall see what can be done about it. That's not a threat. That's a promise. I find the idea of you spending money on a lawyer simply DELICIOUS. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: MO's attacks
You're right Roman, I shouldn't waist a single second with this Clinton's fan. Actually Bill doesn't deserve this. I always liked Clinton, AND he plays sax, and has joie de vivre. RT
Re: MO's attacks
Dear J E, thanks for your observations, but I'm affraid you're = making a partial interpretation of my words and logic. I've never told Minkoff that I'm poor, and that they = should give the whole lute books of their catalogue for free. I'm just saying that their prices have no relation with = the possibilities of a professional musician, that's all. The whole = political discussion came because of some very particularly agressive = messages posted by MO. To follow Ariel's logic, if someone calls him to play for a gig, = saying they're poor and need him to play for a very reduced fee; should = he do it? It's not his music, it belongs to the world, right?=20 If some really poor institution would ask for my service and I agree = with what they do (I wouldn't play for free for a fascist small gang), I = would then play for free. I've done it several times, and I can tell = interesting stories about that experiences. If I want to buy a Cezar Mateus lute that sells for 5,000 dollars, = but I only have 1000 dollars, should he sell it to me for that price? = After all, he didn't invent the lute, or grow the trees (well, maybe he = did!); what right does he have to charge me for all the hard work and = study, and financial investment he's put into his business? :) Quite a difference. What Cezar produces is hundred per cent product of = his effort, and on the other hand I do have options, while with many of = the books I don't, in many ocassions.=20 =20 I think this is one reason libraries exist, for people such as myself, = and Ariel, etc. who don't have the funds to buy everything, especially = expensive editions. I'm lucky to have access to a large collection of = lute music at UCSB in Santa Barbara, CA. And what about all the other unlucky with no libraries near from = them? Just one last thing. I've studied in Switzerland with Hoppy Smith, and by that time in the = class we were more or less 7 people from South America, from middle or = working class homes. No one of us was ever able to buy the cheapest of Minkoff's book, so = we had to copy them from the library (access to it was easy by that = time), and some of were playing gigs, or making money doing something. Best, A --
Re: MO's attacks
At 10:01 PM 10/10/2003 +0200, arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The whole = political discussion came because of some very particularly agressive = messages posted by MO. In other words, since you had no reasonable retort on the merits of the issue, you brought in world politics. Makes perfect sense, I guess. If some really poor institution would ask for my service and I agree = with what they do (I wouldn't play for free for a fascist small gang), I = would then play for free. I've done it several times, and I can tell = interesting stories about that experiences. Again, you are not unique. But let's suppose that a fascist small gang offered you a really big honorarium, the kind that would allow you to buy the entire Minkoff catalogue and not bat an eye, would you play the gig? And suppose it was a big fascist gang and _they_ offered you an honorarium which would have allowed you to buy Minkoff, would you then take the gig? No need to answer. As George Bernard Shaw once said, we are not discussing who you are, we are only discussing the price. Quite a difference. What Cezar produces is hundred per cent product of = his effort, A printed book by Minkoff is also 100% a product of their efforts. The raw material is different. and on the other hand I do have options, while with many of = the books I don't, in many ocassions. As Gordon told you, you always have options. Except that the options of going straight to the source are far more expensive than buying the book. And what about all the other unlucky with no libraries near from = them? Have heard of the Post Office? asking for copies by mail? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: MO's attacks
At 04:08 PM 10/10/2003 -0400, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will discreetly limit myself to relay that your reputation 'round Moscow is that of a shyster and shiromyzhnik [sic!]. In that case, you resort to slander by innuendo, since you will not say exactly who in Moscow said anything about me, and how reliable that opinion was. Obviously, you have no direct personal knowledge of my immaculate business practices, specifically: procurement of materials, and repeating this kind of nonsense in public is definitely actionable. Just keep on pissing me off like that, and we shall see what can be done about it. That's not a threat. That's a promise. I find the idea of you spending money on a lawyer simply DELICIOUS. RT Good for you. Just keep this up, and we shall see. Besides, what makes think I have to spend money on lawyers? As I wrote elsewhere: MO is simply a Clubview Road Miasmatron, small-minded and even smaller-hearted extortionist from provincial composers. Just imagine how successful a publisher he would have been, if he only abstained from wasting his own and our time... RT
Re: MO's attacks
At 03:25 PM 10/10/2003 -0400, Roman Turovsky wrote: material. Access to printed lute music is not an unalienable human right. Like it or not, music is not bread...or freedom. To some it's both. Of course, you are correct...to a certain degree. But again, I was not trying to address the conducting of the business of life under an oppressive, tyrannical regime. In most places of the world music is legally available to everybody. Nobody would deny me the right to procure transportation; I can't afford a Ferrari so I drive a used Saturn. Nobody would deny me the right to sustenance; I can't afford to nightly sup on caviar, so I have come to favor the burrito place on the corner. Nobody would deny me the right to make music; I can't afford Minkoff Editions, so I swap for xerographic copies of PD material amongst friends. Of course, you are correct...to a certain degree. Capitalism is not simply about buying only what we can afford. It is actively working to separate us from our money by making us buy. Anyone unwilling to play mouse in this game is subversive. Offering cut-price or free merchandise [or sharing] is called dumping. Hence that squealing from Club View Road. RT
