Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

>> But you do have!  Just click the "LXR" link on the left of the
>> tutorial page.  The Hildon framework sources are publicly available
>> (and have been for a long time).
>
> Unfortunately when people say "sources for 770" they do tend to mean
> IT200x (the product) too and not only Maemo (the platform). 

Yes, but the section that had been quoted, was titled:
 "Main differences between Gnome and Hildon application framework"

IMHO one would need to be pretty blind not see that the title was:
Hildon application framework
instead of:
ALL the software on an Open Source based Commercial product
with proprietary components
:-)

(I still think the LXR link should be renamed "Platform source-code"
or something like that.)


- Eero

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[maemo-developers] Re: [fbreader] ZBedic integration

[Kasper Souren]

I hope, the next release will contain same feature for Nokia 770 --
with maemodict. (Btw, does mamodict work on Maemo 2.0?)


My laptop is still lost in transit :(
So I'm trying to get myself to directly do stuff on the N770. Which sucks.

I am getting closer to getting MaemoDict to run on Maemo 2.0.
But it seems that the binary dictd I'm using is not working. Probably
due to arm/armel differences. I haven't even been lurking on
maemo-developers. I did a quick search but couldn't find useful
information.

When I try to start /usr/bin/dictd I get:
/bin/sh: /usr/bin/dictd: not found

dictd is simply taken from the Debian package for the arm
architecture. That is probably the problem here. Is it somehow easy to
get dictd for armel? I guess it can be done easily inside a scratchbox
environment. But not by me, I don't have my own laptop. I can sort of
use some MacBook, but no chance of installing a free operating system
on it.

Kasper



P.S. Anyone knows where I can buy a small and easy laptop without
Windows or other proprietary OS? Cheap, and preferably from a store in
NYC (or Philly, or on the way West).
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Re: [maemo-developers] Reboot Cycle

[Johannes Eickhold]

Am Freitag, den 28.07.2006, 00:06 -0400 schrieb Peter Kahle: 
> Well, it was inevitable, I got myself into a reboot cycle. Using the 
> no-lifeguard-reset flag seems to bring the system back to a very stable 
> state, though, so I'm wondering if there's a list of programs that 
> should be running that the lifeguard will watch for so I can debug what 
> exactly is failing?
> 
> If not, if someone with a fairly pristine system could send me a list of 
> what's running on their box, that would be great too.

I have the same problem: used upt-get upgrade while having a
"http://repository.maemo.org/ mistral" line in my /etc/sources.list and
entered reboot cycle. :-( - After that I found the "Apt-got my way into
a reboot loop??" thread in this list and used the no-lifeguard-reset
flag. Then I was able to complete the interrupted upgrade with "dpkg
--configure -a". Now it seems that gstreamer elements can't be loaded
anymore (segmentation fault, when I try to start e.g. sofsip_cli on the
command line). Also the video and audioplayer can't play files anymore.

Has anybody found a solution to this problem that avoids reflashing?
Reflashing would cause me a lot of work :-/.

I think it would be a good idea not to say "You can freely alternate
between AI 2006 and apt-get, say. Changes done to the system via apt-get
or dpkg are picked up by the AI 2006 without confusing it, and vice
versa." like [1] does, if it can cause so much trouble. As quite some
packages in the ApplicationCatalog state that they depend on some
packages in "http://repository.maemo.org/ mistral" it is not uncommon to
have it in the sources.list.

I admit I typed "y" too fast when apt-get asked me to proceed and I
didn't read the update lines carefully enough.

Greets,
  Jonek.

[1]
http://maemo.org/platform/docs/howtos/howto_making_an_application_package.html
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Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop

[Kalle Vahlman]

2006/8/29, Eero Tamminen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Hi,

> "There are plenty of other small differences, *some* of which are
> explained in this tutorial." (my emphasis). Now the only way to
> change that *some* into an *all* is to give us (the community)
> either easy access to the source code (best)

But you do have!  Just click the "LXR" link on the left of the tutorial
page.  The Hildon framework sources are publicly available (and have been
for a long time).


Unfortunately when people say "sources for 770" they do tend to mean
IT200x (the product) too and not only Maemo (the platform).

I think there was not enough separation made between the two (not that
the difference would be that obvious though) in the initial launch,
which lead to different expectations than what came to reality. This
coupled to the fact that the original release for the sources was
sluggish made for disappointments in the open source community that,
quite frankly, isn't that sensitive to the issues that the so-called
"corporate people" have.

So while the initial marriage of open source and "corporate"[1] wasn't
too smooth all around, to my eye it is definitely developing in the
right direction and has come a long way from where it began. Having
met some of the nice people doing this work and thinking on how to
improve it (hi tigert :) I'm sure it will get better all the time.

Now, it would be crucial to get some community work integrated to the
product too so that people will see how their input is valuable and
welcome. One way of doing this would be to organise a hackfest during
which there would be some features developed and bugs fixed by the
community with the support of Maemo-staff. I'm not sure how well
patches from the maemo.org bugzilla have been received, I remember
hearing of maybe one patch that has been applied (but there must be
others, right?). Getting the component maintainers to hang out in IRC
reviewing community patches as a dedicated effort would definitely
help on bridging the gap between the two worlds in my opinion. Who
knows if such a thing would make the maemo developers receive not only
complaints but fixes too ;)


[1] I'm only using this word as I'm not sure what would be a better
one. "commercial" is not what I mean here, but rather the goals and
work flow differences.

--
Kalle Vahlman, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Interesting stuff at http://syslog.movial.fi
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[maemo-developers] Re: Nokia 770 sources...

[Ross Burton]

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 20:10 +0200, Simon Budig wrote:
> Alessandro Ikeuchi ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(mybuffer, "\u00E3", -1);
> 
> gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor () expects UTF-8 as the second
> argument. I don't know what C99 / C++ define for the "\u" excape
> sequences (probably wide chars or something like this), but I strongly
> suspect that the internal encoding is undefined and/or machine
> dependant.
> 
> I am not at all convinced that this is supposed to work and I suggest
> that you assume the error on your side. Feel free to point me to the
> Ansi C99 standard that defines the internal encoding of wide char string
> constants to be UTF-8 though.

The spec as I read it is a little vague, and \u specifies a "universal
character" with no specific encoding.  I'm guessing it's the literal
codepoint.  As you say, GTK+ always expects UTF-8 (unless you are using
the gunichar API, in which \u should work).  Thanks to the
ever-wonderful gucharmap:

U+00E3 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH TILDE

General Character Properties

Unicode category: Letter, Lowercase
Canonical decomposition: U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A + U+0303
COMBINING TILDE

Various Useful Representations

UTF-8: 0xC3 0xA3
UTF-16: 0x00E3

C octal escaped UTF-8: \303\243
XML decimal entity: ã

If you want a literal ã in your C string for passing to a GTK+ function,
then use \303\243 to get the character in the UTF-8 encoding.

Ross
-- 
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RE: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[George Farris]

On Tue, 2006-29-08 at 14:46 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:
> You don´t help either...
> Are you worried about your paycheck from Nokia or the Open Source? I am 
> worried about a bad product policy and because I am directly harmed by it.

I think you have made your point, everyone has read it.  Can we now
please move on.  Lets see what kind of response comes over the next week
or so. Remember this is summer and many people may actually be on
vacation.

Lets give this a rest for a bit please, we all understand there are some
frustrations, mine happens to be bluetooth support but lets give Nokia
an opportunity to respond now.

Thanks


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[maemo-developers] Difference between retail rootfs and developer rootfs

[Henri Sivonen]

What's the difference between the rootfs installed by default on  
devices that ship with OS2006 and Maemo_Dev_Platform_v2.0_armel- 
rootfs.jffs2 (besides USB networking and root access being enabled)?  
What does "easier debugging" mean besides root access?


Or to ask another way, is there any reason why I wouldn't want to  
flash in the developer rootfs? Is saving space the only reason why  
the device doesn't ship with a rootfs equivalent to the developer one?


--
Henri Sivonen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/


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[maemo-developers] Initiating connections programatically

[D. Scott Brown]

My team is developing an application that will be used by tech- 
clueless consumers. All data is displayed in a portrait screen  
orientation, and our application is intended to run directly from  
startup in place of the default Hildon launcher.


Because of this, we need to provide our own UI for selecting a WLAN  
connection. We've tried using both LIBOSSO and Linux wireless tools  
without success.


#libosso using python
import osso
osso_c=osso.Context("wifi","0.0.1",False)
	ret=osso_c.rpc_run("com.nokia.icd","/com/nokia/ 
icd","com.nokia.icd","get_ipinfo",wait_reply=True,use_system_bus=True)

#lend python

It always seems to complain about an interface not found (or  
something similar like that). We've tried many variants of this  
without success:
	ret=osso_c.rpc_run("com.nokia.icd","/com/nokia/ 
icd","com.nokia.icd","connect",rpc_args=[name, 
1],wait_reply=True,use_system_bus=True)


Our second approach was to write code that will bring up the wlan  
network and then scan for hotspots:

#file wifi_scan.sh
sudo gainroot < /sbin/ifconfig wlan0 down
/sbin/ifconfig wlan0 up
/usr/sbin/iwlist wlan0 scanning
END

Here's the code that will connect to the network (at least partially):
#file wifi_connect.sh
sudo gainroot < /usr/sbin/iwconfig wlan0 essid $1
/usr/sbin/iwconfig wlan0 key $2
/usr/sbin/iwconfig wlan0 commit
END

Running it as ./wifi_connect.sh MyNetworkSid MyWEPpassword works,  
except that when geting the wifi info (using /usr/sbin/iwconfig or / 
sbin/ifconfig) it doesn't seem to assign an IP address to the network  
interface (or at least something is preventing the internet from  
working).


Assuming that the problem with the wifi_connect.sh script is that the  
DHCP isn't working, then there may be extra logic needed to link to  
dhcp server on the router….
There is code under /etc/udhcpc/ that appears to drive the assignment  
of ip addresses to the Nokia via DHCP from the network you become  
connected to. We haven't been able to get it to do anything useful.  
There is some vague info on this directory at http:// 
stefans.datenbruch.de/nokia770/.


The only other last-ditch idea we've thought about (and we have no  
idea if this is even remotely feasible) was to use the built-in  
Connection Manager, but hide it behind our application's window and  
somehow send stylus click events to it.


Right now, this mailing list is all that stands between us and  
dropping support for wifi connectivity in our application (ouch).


Your wise counsel is humbly sought,
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Paulo Pires]

There is http://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/ for this particular case. But, unfortunately, nobody is answering in its forums and not even in this ML.Paulo Pires
On 8/29/06, Jaime Ruiz Frontera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:16:15 -0400"Andrew Barr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:[...]> (Just a personal gripe of mine: Proper monitor mode support in the> WLAN driver so Kismet will run correctly and packet injection support for aireplay ;)
Cheers--Jaime Ruiz Fronterae-mail: jaime AT cauterized.netjabber: jaime AT zgzjabber.ath.cxsip   : jaime AT 
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Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[Frantisek Dufka]

Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:

I am worried about a bad product policy and because I am directly harmed by it.


You're mostly harmed just by your incompetence. In 90% of stuff you 
posted the problem was on your side.



And I am here as customer, not as community member.


Then you are at the wrong place. This is not customer support.

when people criticize my work here as analyst I improve it and respect my client, no matter how angry he is. 


Because customer pays you. This is a community list. You are not paying 
community members to listen to your rants. Please behave yourself or get 
lost.




Tell me how to write unicode chars (because is certainly changed) would be the 
most correct way to silence me.



No, you got it wrong. In fact, banning you completely from the list 
would be the most correct way. We are just wasting our time with you.


Frantisek

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Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[T L Holaday]

It is inappropriate to use a developer community mailing list for customer support.On 8/29/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi 
aikeuchi-at-santanderbanespa.com.br |maemo.dev/gmailLabelled| <...> wrote:
And I am here as customer, not as community member. -- ~tlholaday()
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Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[Simon Budig]

Alessandro Ikeuchi ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(mybuffer, "\u00E3", -1);

gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor () expects UTF-8 as the second
argument. I don't know what C99 / C++ define for the "\u" excape
sequences (probably wide chars or something like this), but I strongly
suspect that the internal encoding is undefined and/or machine
dependant.

I am not at all convinced that this is supposed to work and I suggest
that you assume the error on your side. Feel free to point me to the
Ansi C99 standard that defines the internal encoding of wide char string
constants to be UTF-8 though.

Bye,
Simon
-- 
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RE: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[Alessandro Ikeuchi]

You don´t help either...
Are you worried about your paycheck from Nokia or the Open Source? I am worried 
about a bad product policy and because I am directly harmed by it.
And I am here as customer, not as community member. If you work on Maemo, sorry 
to say, I tried as a good guy before and nobody remember... Now I spread my 
rage were I want, because when people criticize my work here as analyst I 
improve it and respect my client, no matter how angry he is. 

And I never told nothing personal here, so you and everyone more else with 
feellings should work better and assure that Maemo is really open to community, 
because it's not nowadays.

Tell me how to write unicode chars (because is certainly changed) would be the 
most correct way to silence me.

-Original Message-
From: Anderson Briglia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: terça-feira, 29 de agosto de 2006 14:34
To: Alessandro Ikeuchi
Cc: maemo-developers@maemo.org
Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...


Hi Alessandro,

Are you in Brazil, right?! Why don't you request some help from PROCON? ( that 
means Consumer Protection Department, from whom is not in Brazil). ;-) I 
believe they can help you with your frustrations. As far as I understood, you 
are not interesting in improving anything here, you just want to "spread" your 
rage. When you buy something you already MUST know what you're buying.

Anderson Briglia

On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Ok, Maemo docs sucks, the SDK sucks and the Hildon stuff looks like a 
> colony of ants... I bought Nokia 770 because I believe OPEN SOURCE, 
> so, Nokia is using it, isn´t? Where are the sources? The lack of docs 
> could be covered by releasing the sources...
>
> I just wanted to build my own text editor with dead keys support for 
> my bluetooth keyboard, but even the Maemopad example doesn't work 
> properly (try to change font color).
>
> Unicode only works for the xterm, and worst, Notes does dead keys for 
> screen keyboard, so, why is so hard to adapt Maemopad for dead keys? 
> (by the way, I made a working version of Maemopad with GTK for my 
> Linux x86 box that works as planned, so I am sure that's not me...)
>
> "Nokia 770 is Debian based, Alessandro, should be great!"... It´s a 
> piece of crap, I never used because I can´t find or port applications 
> of my interest... There´s no surprise that "REAL AND USEFUL 
> APPLICATIONS" never appears at maemo repository (with some exceptions)
>
> MY SUGGESTION FOR THE NEXT RELEASE OF shitOS 2007:  Forget about 
> Hildon, forget desktop, give me a console based OS with Lynx, vim, 
> python (python for OS 2006 appears in Maemo 2.0 repository, forget it, 
> there´s no Python version for OS 2006, even the list isn´t properly 
> updated) and UNICODE support, would be great if CURSES is available 
> too, or better, with a good framebuffer driver. It would spare Nokia 
> budget and make the plataform usefull and with lots of space... 
> Besides, with a real open source OS and simple developing tools I 
> would try QTopia. The exceptions mentioned above are CONSOLE and X11 
> programs, as python, smallbasic, octave, gnuplot... If you are a 
> Hildon developer/mantainer pay attention: the best released 
> applications are Console based! With no fear, Hildon sucks and it's 
> the weakspot of Nokia 770...
>
> Someone just confirm that I can´t get Notes sources and I'll sell my 
> useless Nokia 770 and buy Samsung Q1 (try this one if you don´t have 
> Nokia, believe me, the lower price of Nokia doesn't beat the ease of 
> development of a Win32 x86 platform, forget the "linux, open source 
> and free for all stuff", Nokia 770 is not that). And yes, I am pissed 
> off... I really bought Nokia 770 for my personal business purpose, 
> confident about the "debian based" OS... Hacks are good when works and 
> when you have control (sources), otherwise it's non sense time 
> spending... (try to discover why GTK API works in your Linux x86 and 
> doesn't in OS2006 is a good mental exercise if you have 18 hours free 
> per day, because nobody knows and you will never see the platform 
> sources).
>
> My opinion is clear: Nokia 770 won´t prevail with these development 
> policies. I won´t use it and I don´t recommend as plataform for 
> anyone, it's just a annoying gadget, do yourself a favor and buy a PSP 
> instead (at least runs win95 with bochs and have nice 3d games).
>
> Alessandro - unhappy owner of a nokia 770 since June/2006
>
>
>
> Essa mensagem é destinada exclusivamente ao seu destinatário e pode 
> conter informações confidenciais, protegidas por sigilo profissional 
> ou cuja divulgação seja proibida por lei. O uso não autorizado de tais 
> informações é proibido e está sujeito às penalidades cabíveis.
>
>
>
>
> This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain 
> information that is confidential and protected by a professional 
> privilege or whose disclosure is prohibited by law. U

Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[Anderson Briglia]

Hi Alessandro,

Are you in Brazil, right?! Why don't you request some help from
PROCON? ( that means Consumer Protection Department, from whom is not
in Brazil). ;-)
I believe they can help you with your frustrations. As far as I
understood, you are not interesting in improving anything here, you
just want to "spread" your rage. When you buy something you already
MUST know what you're buying.

Anderson Briglia

On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Ok, Maemo docs sucks, the SDK sucks and the Hildon stuff looks like a colony
of ants...
I bought Nokia 770 because I believe OPEN SOURCE, so, Nokia is using it,
isn´t? Where are the sources? The lack of docs could be covered by releasing
the sources...

I just wanted to build my own text editor with dead keys support for my
bluetooth keyboard, but even the Maemopad example doesn't work properly (try
to change font color).

Unicode only works for the xterm, and worst, Notes does dead keys for screen
keyboard, so, why is so hard to adapt Maemopad for dead keys? (by the way, I
made a working version of Maemopad with GTK for my Linux x86 box that works
as planned, so I am sure that's not me...)

"Nokia 770 is Debian based, Alessandro, should be great!"... It´s a piece of
crap, I never used because I can´t find or port applications of my
interest... There´s no surprise that "REAL AND USEFUL APPLICATIONS" never
appears at maemo repository (with some exceptions)

MY SUGGESTION FOR THE NEXT RELEASE OF shitOS 2007:  Forget about Hildon,
forget desktop, give me a console based OS with Lynx, vim, python (python
for OS 2006 appears in Maemo 2.0 repository, forget it, there´s no Python
version for OS 2006, even the list isn´t properly updated) and UNICODE
support, would be great if CURSES is available too, or better, with a good
framebuffer driver. It would spare Nokia budget and make the plataform
usefull and with lots of space... Besides, with a real open source OS and
simple developing tools I would try QTopia. The exceptions mentioned above
are CONSOLE and X11 programs, as python, smallbasic, octave, gnuplot... If
you are a Hildon developer/mantainer pay attention: the best released
applications are Console based! With no fear, Hildon sucks and it's the
weakspot of Nokia 770...

Someone just confirm that I can´t get Notes sources and I'll sell my useless
Nokia 770 and buy Samsung Q1 (try this one if you don´t have Nokia, believe
me, the lower price of Nokia doesn't beat the ease of development of a Win32
x86 platform, forget the "linux, open source and free for all stuff", Nokia
770 is not that). And yes, I am pissed off... I really bought Nokia 770 for
my personal business purpose, confident about the "debian based" OS... Hacks
are good when works and when you have control (sources), otherwise it's non
sense time spending... (try to discover why GTK API works in your Linux x86
and doesn't in OS2006 is a good mental exercise if you have 18 hours free
per day, because nobody knows and you will never see the platform sources).

My opinion is clear: Nokia 770 won´t prevail with these development
policies. I won´t use it and I don´t recommend as plataform for anyone, it's
just a annoying gadget, do yourself a favor and buy a PSP instead (at least
runs win95 with bochs and have nice 3d games).

Alessandro - unhappy owner of a nokia 770 since June/2006



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proibido e está sujeito às penalidades cabíveis.




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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Jaime Ruiz Frontera]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:16:15 -0400
"Andrew Barr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[...]

> (Just a personal gripe of mine: Proper monitor mode support in the
> WLAN driver so Kismet will run correctly. 

... and packet injection support for aireplay ;)

Cheers

-- 
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e-mail: jaime AT cauterized.net
jabber: jaime AT zgzjabber.ath.cx
sip   : jaime AT ekiga.net


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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Barr]

On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Now what we are concentrating on, beside improving the above is to
enable participation and contribution in stages to different parts of
maemo, starting with HAF/Sardine which I hope would extend. The starting
up and adoption barrier for sardine are being recognized, and we are now
trying to make it easy to adopt and use sardine, without sacrificing the
genral device usability. This would enable the patches or feature
implementations by community to be made and tested on the latest svn
codebase, so the component owners can integrate/accept/reject them.
There has been excellent work done for enabling dual boot by Frantisek Dufka
http://maemo.org/maemowiki/BootMenu


Sardine certainly looks like a step in the right direction in terms of
integrating the community into the development process, kind of like
Red Hat does with its Fedora Project. Nokia, like Red Hat, has a
shipping product that it needs some degree of control over, but also
an active community that has its own ideas and wishes. Hopefully
Sardine will help make the Maemo project better and keep both Nokia
and the Maemo community happy. Ideally, in the future there could be
complete, unofficial "product images" (as Nokia calls them) that are
created by the community, for example maybe one that incorporates only
free software (in the GNU or OSI sense). Maybe something similar to
Red Hat's derivative policy towards Fedora. That would be a
particularly popular one among some, I would venture. Similar to
OpenZaurus for the Sharp PDAs, but within the auspices of the Maemo
community.

Unaddressed so far, however, is the Bluetooth headset issue--more
generally, hardware details that are necessary to create such a
distribution. Headset support would be an extremely useful feature,
one that I would like myself, but unfortunately no one outside Nokia
(or TI or whoever made the Bluetooth chip) has the necessary details.
This is an area where the current top-down structure of the Maemo
project fails. You (the Nokia engineers) seem genuinely interested in
listening to the community, I would be willing to bet that either
adding the necessary support to the the Maemo kernel or providing
documentation to interested parties would silence a longstanding gripe
of some of us.

(Just a personal gripe of mine: Proper monitor mode support in the
WLAN driver so Kismet will run correctly. The Nokia 770 is by far the
most perfect device to run Kismet on that I have ever seen--it's a
shame it doesn't work right. :) )
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Marius Gedminas]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 04:50:47PM +0100, Hugh Warrington wrote:
> Andrew Flegg wrote:
> >On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>ext Christian Pernegger wrote:
> >>>- setting up the developent environment was a bitch
> >>
> >>Could you please send me why ?
> >>- Setting up ScratchBox ???
> >>- Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ?
> >>- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?
> >>- Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ???
> >>
> >>I am asking you, so we improve it.
> >
> >It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made
> >it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this
> >isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of
> >installing?
> 
> I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions 
> into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes, 
> setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a breeze.

People have different expectations.  I have come to expect one line of
instructions: apt-get install package-name, and that's it.

I do not like to run shell script that install software.  Package
management systems are there for a reason.

It is good that I can apt-get install scratchbox into my Ubuntu laptop.
Figuring out *which* packages to install was a bit trickier
(scratchbox-core scratchbox-devkit-debian scratchbox-libs
scratchbox-toolchain-cs2005q3.2-glibc-i386
scratchbox-toolchain-cs2005q3.2-glibc-arm).

Would it be possible to prepare a Debian package that

  * depends on all the necessary scratchbox packages
  * asks via debconf for a list of users that you want to add to the
sbox group and create scratchbox user accounts
  * automates the scratchbox target creation and configuration
(rootstrap, .bash_profile, etc.), maybe from the same postinst
script, maybe from a separate shell script.
  * includes the start-maemo-xephyr shell script.
  * ships with a shell script that sets up scratchbox when you run it
for the first time (adduser $USERNAME sbox

?  The main question seems to be: can I tell /scratchbox/login to run
some command (say, a shell script that calls the necessary sequence of
sbox-config commands)?

I think the best user experience is

  one command for installation (apt-get install maemo-scratchbox)
  one command to start Xnest (maemo-xephyr?)
  one command to start an i386 shell (maemo-386-shell)
  one command to start an armel shell (maemo-armel-shell)

No extra configuration required.

Hm... looks like a worthy project for a weekend.

A VMWare virtual appliance with scratchbox preconfigured would also be
nice, I suppose, although personally I'm not interested in it.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
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-- Erwin Dietrich


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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Flegg]

On 8/29/06, Hugh Warrington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Andrew Flegg wrote:


[Getting scratchbox running]


> It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script
> made it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why
> this isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of
> installing?

I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions
into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes,
setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a
breeze.


I didn't say it was hard, just not simple. Why should I need to spend
time downloading this, installing that, copying this rootstrap etc?

Surely you can't be arguing that despite the installer script
existing, users should be confronted with a twenty step process to get
the SDK up and running, when it could be just one?

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  |  http://www.bleb.org/
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Christian Pernegger]

Why was [setting up the developent environment difficult]?


scratchbox is not an official Debian package, and as far as the rather
intrusive directory structure goes, I can see why it isn't. It also
needs i386 when my "do your worst" boxes are both amd64. All in all it
was just long and error-prone.


- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?


Xephyr segfaulted left, right and center when I last tried it, but
only after the first few events. Xnest worked.

The chroot + rootstrap approch itself would be nice enough if the
environment were exactly the same as a 770, that is including
applications. At first I thought something was broken because it
wasn't really possible to _do_ anything in the chrooted environent. So
obviously we aren't supposed to enhance the provided apps ... hmm.

The scratchbox environment has no audio output, no battery indicator,
no "simulated" connectivity, ... it isn't much better than saying
"compile using these header files and cross-compile by changing your
makefile in this way".

I'll admit the last time I played with handheld development was on a
Palm emulator, which felt much more complete - maemo is like flying
blind.


I think the accepted fact is that development for different processor
non-PC devices is different.


Yes, traditionally it is. But a RAD approach would get you more
developers from the "hobby" end of the spectrum, while you'd have to
completely open up the software (including applications, bootloader,
etc ...) for professionals to donate their spare time.

maemo just isn't fun to work with yet, but I'm sure you'll get there :)

C.
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RE: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop

[Alessandro Ikeuchi]

I wish the Notes instead of Maemopad.
My english is so bad? Sorry. May be in portuguese:
Eu quero o código fonte do Notes, o Maemopad não me interessa...
E eu quero que você também explique o motivo de 
gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(mybuffer, "\u00E3", -1); não funcionar para 
Unicode. Não afronte minha inteligência, você não tem nada a ganhar com isso...

-Original Message-
From: Eduardo de Barros Lima [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: terça-feira, 29 de agosto de 2006 10:06
To: Alessandro Ikeuchi
Cc: maemo-developers@maemo.org; maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo 
Desktop


Hi,

On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Instead of show me these crap links (that I searched many times) WHY 
> YOU DON'T SEND ME THE Notes SOURCES, hein?

http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/free/source/m/maemopad/

You can always use "apt-get source" command.

> I am sure that five minutes of hack and I would achieve my goals...
>

Good luck.

-- 
Eduardo de Barros Lima
INdT - Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Hugh Warrington]

Andrew Flegg wrote:

On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

ext Christian Pernegger wrote:

- setting up the developent environment was a bitch

>>

Could you please send me why ?
- Setting up ScratchBox ???
- Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ?
- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?
- Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ???

I am asking you, so we improve it.


It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made
it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this
isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of
installing?

HTH,

Andrew


I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions 
into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes, 
setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a breeze.


Hugh
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Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[Marius Gedminas]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 12:42:44PM -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:
> First, I don´t care about my tone

We noticed.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
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-- Andrew Hume


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RE: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[Alessandro Ikeuchi]

First, I don´t care about my tone, it´s a voice of a angry customer, IT´S THE 
FIRST TIME THAT I HEARD ABOUT THE SOURCE CODE. Even other members of this list 
never heard about it, so don´t come like my old daddy saying "hey kid, it was 
there all the time, below your nose in the About dialog box". I bought, I paid, 
if the product is far from my expectatives, I say to the world as I wish. 
There's a very know citation (perhaps unknow in Finland) that says "the client 
is always right". And this tone got worst because your brazilian fellows at 
Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia instead of showing me where the sources were, 
told me about docs, made inferences about my programming abilities and so on...
And IF YOU WERE FOLLOWING the list by now you would know my problem, but if my 
programming abilities concerns you, ok, let´s talk about it:

void gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(GtkTextBuffer *buffer, const gchar *text, 
gint len)

gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(mybuffer, "\u00E3", -1);

The function above doesn't work for unicode chars in Maemo, for normal GTK is 
perfect. But if my abilities are yet not as good as you think, let´s try 
something that doesn´t is programming at all..

Install bluetooth keyboard and use xmodmap, suppose this:

Xmodmap -e "keysym asciitilde = 228"

Doesn't solve my dead keys, but I exchange the tilde for Ä char. Well, works 
fine at console, but try to open Notes and hit the tilde key, nothing happens 
at all. But when I use the screenkeyboard dead keys are enabled, and NOBODY was 
able to tell me how if unicode is not supported.

So, dear finland guy, it´s not my INABILITY to adapt Maemopad that's 
frustrating me, is the INABILITY of Maemo to follow standards... And besides, 
take a sincere look at maemo repository and tell me how many good hildon 
programs are there. Only your sponsored fellows from Instituto Nokia are 
releasing, because port is quite difficult due lack of documentation and 
TRANSPARENCY FROM THAT TEAM.

Now, let´s quick respond all:

Osvaldo Santana: Your python package show as broken in my application manager, 
but the interpreter works. I suppose that even you are getting hardtime with 
hildon.

Antonio Gomes: I'll tell you what I deserve: I deserve transparency, I bought a 
open source powered product and I felt tricked when sources were not available. 
And my Nokia is not for sale, THANKS TO YOU I registered www.ihatenokia770.com, 
and my nokia will be the star. I'll dedicate for you, just wait a few more 
days...

Eduardo de Barros Lima: When good docs and tutorials appears, don´t bother with 
me, I'll read because I know where to find then, and I will know if they will 
be good ones or not.

And what I think about how hildon development:

-As you noticed just the brazilian guys where over me (without help, just for 
mention). I suppose that Nokia is developing Maemo at Instituto Nokia de 
Tecnologia, here, in Brazil. As you know, such enterprise requires money, 
sponsorship and so on. They are related to universities, so you can add ego and 
prestige in the equation. Well, if I am crazy and THE ONLY ONE BLAMING HILDON, 
that's ok, I alone lost my fuse... But many of you agree that hildon 
development is not satisfactory, so, sorry about my methods, but my patience 
was gone with this "land of happy lambs", where people are asking for new 
features instead for corrections. I don´t care if brazilians, africans or 
russians developes Maemo as long they do a good job. Indeed, this personal must 
be really prepared for Global Business.

-Second and most important: I am a normal guy, funds analyst from Santander 
bank (in fact, economist), so I am not related to competing firms, I am not 
sponsored. I work with mutual funds and asset management, so I am out the 
prestige/sponsorship/ego wheel that moves maemo. I am just a really pissed off 
user that is so frustrate that decided to register www.ihatenokia770.com to 
assure that everyone knows what is buying.

-And third and most important, all of you can rest assured that I am out, no 
more writing, I need to work and my english is quite horrible . Evebody has my 
mail, feel free to write for me.

To Devesh:
"In general I am happy to learn from your frustrations to improve maemo and 
maemo development experience."
Even disliking my tone, if you have the means to really improve, do it. More 
transparency, more enphasis about the source (I really was about to start 
questionate where GPL licenses applies) and more code. I am a former soldier 
and I think when you go to battle is to win (quickly, aggressively), this 
battlefield is already occupied and my voice echoed trough other persons really 
interested abou Nokia 770. I think that some people were more worried to keep 
things gray and opaque for personal reasons.

Nokia 770 is a great hardware, very promising and with the good appeal of a 
open source SO. I say that the hardware is perfect, just freely release the OS 
with more conviction.

End of file.

[maemo-developers] Sources in svn (was: Nokia 770 sources...)

[Tommi Komulainen]

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 13:31 +0300, ext Henri Sivonen wrote:
> 
> (BTW, it would be nice if the source download page documented the  
> right svn incantations for pulling the source corresponding to the  
> OS2006 release.)

I would think in the developer section would be more appropriate? Though
the svn structure is rather chaotic at the moment. It's trying to
satisfy requests from too many parties, some of whom are not even
touching the repository as it turns out.

I guess we should sit down again and collect interesting and relevant
use cases, like 'Where do I find the latest version of foo?' and 'Where
do I find the sources for maemo-af-desktop version that was in the first
IT2006 software update?' etc. and then figure out what kind of
repository structure would support those cases. Or just document
existing practices...


-- 
Tommi Komulainen<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

> "There are plenty of other small differences, *some* of which are
> explained in this tutorial." (my emphasis). Now the only way to
> change that *some* into an *all* is to give us (the community)
> either easy access to the source code (best)

But you do have!  Just click the "LXR" link on the left of the tutorial
page.  The Hildon framework sources are publicly available (and have been
for a long time).

There's a great Linux kernel cross-refencer site on the net which also
runs LXR, that's why I know about LRX.  I have to admit thought that
better name for "LXR" link would be "source code (cross-reference)".
:-)

- Eero

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[maemo-developers] Compiling hildon or gtk (was: Nokia 770 sources...)

[Tommi Komulainen]

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 13:31 +0300, ext Henri Sivonen wrote:
> 
> Is GTK from Maemo expected to compile (for the host itself) on  
> desktop Linux or Mac OS X? What about Hildon?

Currently maemo gtk+ requires one feature from glib, namely caching of
gtkrc as bytecode-ish format. (It's in glib/gscanner.[ch], look for
cache.)

hildon-libs and hildon-fm require multiple extra symbols exported from
modified gtk+ (most of them should have other than gtk_ prefix, but not
all.)

It is on my todo list to improve our documentation about the
dependencies and changes to widgets. One of the longer term goals is to
be able to build Hildon widgets on top of stock gtk+. I do not yet have
a schedule planned, though.


> How much work would be required for making Python development  
> possible on any *nix style platform with an X server by compiling GTK  
> and Hildon and their Python wrappers for the hosting architecture and  
> installing them in a non-conventional directory prefix to prevent  
> conflicts with the usual GTK installation?

That would be an interesting exercise. I believe Murray Cumming has been
doing something close to this with jhbuild, but I haven't checked which
packages are included in the module sets. But if python bindings are
included, it should be as simple as 'jhbuild build python-hildon' if
memory serves.


-- 
Tommi Komulainen<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[George Farris]

On Tue, 2006-29-08 at 16:50 +0300, Devesh Kothari wrote:

> 
> In general I am happy to learn from your frustrations to improve maemo
> and maemo development experience.
> Devesh
> 

This is great. Please provide information about Bluetooth headset
support.  Is Nokia working on this?  When will it be available?



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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Acadia Secure Networks]

Title: Best Regards,




Devesh,

the following commentary from Andrew is somewhat disconcerting since it
suggests that Nokia is somehow holding back on openness:



  "I have to say
> Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness"
  

Assuming that his disappointment is warranted, what has held Nokia back
in terms of "complete openness" in the context suggested by the above
comment? Is there some commercial concern that, by being more "open",
that Nokia will be somehow more vulnerable to competitors developing
similar hardware that runs the same software platform as the N770? It
is not even clear to me that it is legally possible under the terms of
licensing for Linux based software to take the parts of Linux that one
likes but to hold other parts back in order to retain a competitive
advantage in the marketplace.














Best
Regards,
 
John
Holmblad
 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  ext Andrew Barr wrote:

  
  
On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 18:47 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:


  ...
  

While I certainly don't agree with the angry tone used, I have to say
Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness. It
seems to me that Nokia has opened just enough to get apps ported and/or
written for the device, which in turn sells more devices, or at least
that appears to be the plan. Nothing has come of recurring requests for
information about the Bluetooth hardware (e.g. for headset support), Ogg
Vorbis support, or Gstreamer/DSP multimedia internals in general. Some
things that are missing from the Subversion repo don't even make sense,
e.g. there is no hardware secrets or patents associated with them (at
least as far as I know) The media player apps come to mind here.


  
  What I agree is that we need to strengthen the architecture documents
BTW getting strarted with multimedia development doc was updated
http://maemo.org/platform/docs/multimedia/getting_started.html
(section Plugin development) which describes how to enable  ogg-vorbis
 

  
  
Maemo really isn't open in the sense that we're used to: like a
traditional Linux distribution. It seems to be more of an SDK plus
things that were required to be open, e.g. due to licensing terms.


  
  I think one of the reason for that could also be attributed that most
general linux distributions are targetted to PC/laptop which have
relatively well defines standardized hardware architecture. What we have
tried to do with maemo is
- provide a common development environment and tools for Nokia 770 and
future devices (SB, rootstraps etc)
- provide (as a priority) to enable application development
- enable experimentation like ability to compile your own kernel, create
your own rootfs and all the benifits that could be leveraged from a
debian based component package management system

Now what we are concentrating on, beside improving the above is to
enable participation and contribution in stages to different parts of
maemo, starting with HAF/Sardine which I hope would extend. The starting
up and adoption barrier for sardine are being recognized, and we are now
trying to make it easy to adopt and use sardine, without sacrificing the
genral device usability. This would enable the patches or feature
implementations by community to be made and tested on the latest svn
codebase, so the component owners can integrate/accept/reject them.
There has been excellent work done for enabling dual boot by Frantisek Dufka
http://maemo.org/maemowiki/BootMenu

which I hope would enable the experimentation atleast in the large area
of HAF/sardine (comprising the majority of the middleware stack like
gtk+, theming, desktop, tasknavigator, control panel, application
installer etc) to happen on MMC based sardine rootfs

Devesh


  
  
This is unfortunate, because it creates a burden on the Nokia employees
working on this project. They are the only ones who can add many
requested features or fix bugs, so in many cases people complain to the
mail list because they cannot take care of things themselves. You don't
see patch mails on the maemo-* lists. That's to say nothing of ideas
people have had but been unable to implement--trivial stuff that would
improve the Maemo environment but may not have been discussed on the ML.

To me, the open-source economy (or whatever) that makes some projects so
great doesn't work here because the "community" is relegated in large
part to the role of application developer. The best you can do to
improve some parts of Maemo is suggest it and hope someone at Nokia
takes it up.

These are just my impressions from informal

Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop

[vern]

Marius Gedminas wrote:

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 10:05:41AM -0300, Eduardo de Barros Lima wrote:
  

On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Instead of show me these crap links (that I searched many times) WHY YOU 
DON'T SEND ME THE Notes SOURCES, hein?
  

http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/free/source/m/maemopad/

You can always use "apt-get source" command.



MaemoPad and Notes are two different applications.

Marius Gedminas
  



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Ola,
As I see it the problem is this:
On 
http://www.maemo.org/platform/docs/tutorials/Maemo_tutorial.html#differences

we have:
"There are plenty of other small differences, *some* of which are 
explained in this tutorial."
(my emphasis). Now the only way to change that *some* into an *all* is 
to give us (the community) either easy access to the source code (best) 
or access to the person/s who wrote these differences so we can find out 
how they affect the code we write and then we can document it ourselves.
Maybe a start to resolving this question would be if Nokia employed a 
few people to monitor this list waiting for issues like bluetooth, 
multimedia framework etc to crop up and then making it their mission to 
get an answer/reply to the community as soon as possible. The worst 
thing is some question falling into a black hole as this pisses 
intelligent people (like OSS hackers) off if they do not have a way to 
answer it for themselves.

HTH

-- -- 
Ian Lawrence

Centre for Bioinformatics
INSTITUTO NACIONAL DE PESQUISAS DA AMAZÔNIA – INPA
RUA ANDRÉ ARAÚJO N º .2936 – BAIRRO DO ALEIXO
MANAUS-AMAZONAS-BRAZIL
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http://ppbio.inpa.gov.br


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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Devesh Kothari]

ext Andrew Barr wrote:

> On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 18:47 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:
> > ...
>
> While I certainly don't agree with the angry tone used, I have to say
> Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness. It
> seems to me that Nokia has opened just enough to get apps ported and/or
> written for the device, which in turn sells more devices, or at least
> that appears to be the plan. Nothing has come of recurring requests for
> information about the Bluetooth hardware (e.g. for headset support), Ogg
> Vorbis support, or Gstreamer/DSP multimedia internals in general. Some
> things that are missing from the Subversion repo don't even make sense,
> e.g. there is no hardware secrets or patents associated with them (at
> least as far as I know) The media player apps come to mind here.
>
What I agree is that we need to strengthen the architecture documents
BTW getting strarted with multimedia development doc was updated
http://maemo.org/platform/docs/multimedia/getting_started.html
(section Plugin development) which describes how to enable  ogg-vorbis
 

> Maemo really isn't open in the sense that we're used to: like a
> traditional Linux distribution. It seems to be more of an SDK plus
> things that were required to be open, e.g. due to licensing terms.
>
I think one of the reason for that could also be attributed that most
general linux distributions are targetted to PC/laptop which have
relatively well defines standardized hardware architecture. What we have
tried to do with maemo is
- provide a common development environment and tools for Nokia 770 and
future devices (SB, rootstraps etc)
- provide (as a priority) to enable application development
- enable experimentation like ability to compile your own kernel, create
your own rootfs and all the benifits that could be leveraged from a
debian based component package management system

Now what we are concentrating on, beside improving the above is to
enable participation and contribution in stages to different parts of
maemo, starting with HAF/Sardine which I hope would extend. The starting
up and adoption barrier for sardine are being recognized, and we are now
trying to make it easy to adopt and use sardine, without sacrificing the
genral device usability. This would enable the patches or feature
implementations by community to be made and tested on the latest svn
codebase, so the component owners can integrate/accept/reject them.
There has been excellent work done for enabling dual boot by Frantisek Dufka
http://maemo.org/maemowiki/BootMenu

which I hope would enable the experimentation atleast in the large area
of HAF/sardine (comprising the majority of the middleware stack like
gtk+, theming, desktop, tasknavigator, control panel, application
installer etc) to happen on MMC based sardine rootfs

Devesh


> This is unfortunate, because it creates a burden on the Nokia employees
> working on this project. They are the only ones who can add many
> requested features or fix bugs, so in many cases people complain to the
> mail list because they cannot take care of things themselves. You don't
> see patch mails on the maemo-* lists. That's to say nothing of ideas
> people have had but been unable to implement--trivial stuff that would
> improve the Maemo environment but may not have been discussed on the ML.
>
> To me, the open-source economy (or whatever) that makes some projects so
> great doesn't work here because the "community" is relegated in large
> part to the role of application developer. The best you can do to
> improve some parts of Maemo is suggest it and hope someone at Nokia
> takes it up.
>
> These are just my impressions from informal observation and occasional
> participation in this endeavor. If you think I'm way off base or crazy
> or something, please feel free to tell me or ignore me.
> --
> Andrew Barr | http://www.oakcourt.dyndns.org/~andrew/
> 
>
> "Buzzword detected (core dumped)"
>   -- seen on linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Flegg]

On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

ext Christian Pernegger wrote:

> > I am just telling some truths that others should know.
>
> I'm with you insofar as
> - setting up the developent environment was a bitch
>
Could you please send me why ?
- Setting up ScratchBox ???
- Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ?
- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?
- Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ???

I am asking you, so we improve it.


It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made
it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this
isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of
installing?

HTH,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  |  http://www.bleb.org/
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Devesh Kothari]

ext Christian Pernegger wrote:

> > I am just telling some truths that others should know.
>
> I'm with you insofar as
> - setting up the developent environment was a bitch
>
Could you please send me why ?
- Setting up ScratchBox ???
- Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ?
- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?
- Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ???

I am asking you, so we improve it.

> - it still doesn't give you the same environment as a real 770 apparently
>
In general scratchbox as already pointed out provides a chrooted
environment, which is not the same as in device development. The armel
rootstrap in SB should atleast provide the same compiled binaries etc as
that on the device, so as to provide properly cross compiled binaries
for the device.

> - C++ plus custom framework doesn't exactly lend itself to RAD, maybe
> a scripting language (python, ruby, whatever) or even Java would have
> been a better choice. A lot of people, me included, don't have a clue
> about cross-compiling or embedded development.
>
I think the accepted fact is that development for different processor
non-PC devices is different.
Devesh

> C.
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Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[Devesh Kothari]

ext Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:

> Ok, Maemo docs sucks, the SDK sucks and the Hildon stuff looks like a
> colony of ants...
> I bought Nokia 770 because I believe OPEN SOURCE, so, Nokia is using
> it, isn´t? Where are the sources? The lack of docs could be covered by
> releasing the sources...
>
First I need to point out, I dont like the tone of this message as has
been already pointed out in responses to this thread. As for the
sources, from a legal stand point all required source is available
through the maemo repository.

http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo2.0rc22/free/source/

Beside that if you check the "About Product" tab in ControlPanel->Device
you will find out how you can request source code (which nokia is
legally bound to provide) CD from Nokia

> I just wanted to build my own text editor with dead keys support for
> my bluetooth keyboard, but even the Maemopad example doesn't work
> properly (try to change font color).
>
I would appreciate if you could attach a log or some more information or
file a bug in
https://maemo.org/bugzilla

Usually we do run some round of test to atleast the example codes
refered to in the tutorial.

> Unicode only works for the xterm, and worst, Notes does dead keys for
> screen keyboard, so, why is so hard to adapt Maemopad for dead keys?
> (by the way, I made a working version of Maemopad with GTK for my
> Linux x86 box that works as planned, so I am sure that's not me...)
>
I think more of your agression is directed towards maemopad and your
inability to modify and achieve your objectives. If that is the case,
then I am quite sure the community would be happy to help you out, if
you would be a bit more constructive, rather than a "shot everything
down" kind of attitude.

> "Nokia 770 is Debian based, Alessandro, should be great!"... It´s a
> piece of crap, I never used because I can´t find or port applications
> of my interest... There´s no surprise that "REAL AND USEFUL
> APPLICATIONS" never appears at maemo repository (with some exceptions)
>
Well  i think that is your perception (and in that you in your own right
maybe justified). I myself love various adventure games not available
for the device either, so I guess I would be justified in my own right
to "shoot everything down too"

> MY SUGGESTION FOR THE NEXT RELEASE OF shitOS 2007:  Forget about
> Hildon, forget desktop, give me a console based OS with Lynx, vim,
> python (python for OS 2006 appears in Maemo 2.0 repository, forget it,
> there´s no Python version for OS 2006, even the list isn´t properly
> updated) and UNICODE support, would be great if CURSES is available
> too, or better, with a good framebuffer driver. It would spare Nokia
>
Nokia 770 OS 2006 introduces the debian package management, so if thats
the way you want to go, I will certainly not come in your way. You could
have asked the community to tell you a way to achieve that. I am quite
sure, you can gain root and  open your favourite xterm and just apt-get
remove packages you dont like. You are free to do all experimentation
you like at your own risk. Please do post the findings of your results
on the mailing list, I of one would be quite interested to know the result.

There are also other tools and documentation available on maemo which
talks about customizing and building your own rootfs and kernel etc.

> budget and make the plataform usefull and with lots of space...
> Besides, with a real open source OS and simple developing tools I
> would try QTopia. The exceptions mentioned above are CONSOLE and X11
> programs, as python, smallbasic, octave, gnuplot... If you are a Hildon
>
I think there has been many flame wars about QT/GTK+, so I would not
comment anymore. Maemo and Nokia 770(OS2006) is a GTK+ based device and
application development environment. Either you accept that or not thats
your choice. By all means experiment with different toolkits and
technologies, and if they are done in constructive manner, I am quite
sure, you would still find this developer list quite willing to listen
and help.

> developer/mantainer pay attention: the best released applications are
> Console based! With no fear, Hildon sucks and it's the weakspot of
> Nokia 770...
>
There are very good reasons for us to extend and customize GTK+ which
together with desktop components and services we call hildon. We are as
a goal trying to push changes to mainstream (some will be accepted, some
wont) but you can follow the status on

http://maemo.org/maemowiki/MaemoGtk26Contributions

> Someone just confirm that I can´t get Notes sources and I'll sell my
> useless Nokia 770 and buy Samsung Q1 (try this one if you don´t have
> Nokia, believe me, the lower price of Nokia doesn't beat the ease of
> development of a Win32 x86 platform, forget the "linux, open source
> and free for all stuff", Nokia 770 is not that). And yes, I am pissed
> off... I really bought Nokia 770 for my personal business purpose,
> confident about the "debia
>
> based" OS... Hacks are goo

Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop

[Marius Gedminas]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 10:05:41AM -0300, Eduardo de Barros Lima wrote:
> On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >Instead of show me these crap links (that I searched many times) WHY YOU 
> >DON'T SEND ME THE Notes SOURCES, hein?
> 
> http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/free/source/m/maemopad/
> 
> You can always use "apt-get source" command.

MaemoPad and Notes are two different applications.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.


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Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop

[Eduardo de Barros Lima]

Hi,

On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Instead of show me these crap links (that I searched many times) WHY YOU DON'T 
SEND ME THE Notes SOURCES, hein?


http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/free/source/m/maemopad/

You can always use "apt-get source" command.


I am sure that five minutes of hack and I would achieve my goals...



Good luck.

--
Eduardo de Barros Lima
INdT - Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[maemo-developers] Notes/Text editor

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

There have been some mails about the Notes text editor so I thought
to mention that my own preferred "Notepad" clone is Leafpad.  I don't
need HTML subset (neither in my mails nor) when editing the text files
on the device, so Leafpad is just fine.  Especially as it's 100% Open
Source, quite lightweight and its Debian package builds just fine for
Maemo.

Attached are instructions on "porting" Leafpad to Maemo.


- Eero


Clueful developer test
==

This test determines the competance level of a maemo-developer list
participant.  During the test you "port", build and install Leafpad
text editor to the N770 device.

The participant may ask questions from the other developers on the Maemo
mailing-list during the test.  If the mails trigger "non-social moron"
detector, the participant fails the test.  If the developers list / Maemo
SDK people are not able to help the participant to install the package
succesfully to the device, the developers-list fails the test.

The test ends with honours when the Leafpad package is succesfully
installed to the device, user can run (multiple instances of) it and
switch between the editor and the Desktop.


Before the test:
- Install ARMEL Scratchbox development environment as described
  in the Maemo 2.0 documentation


Good luck!


The test:
-

# download the source packages for Leafpad from a Debian repo to some dir
# inside Sbox (the sources were found through packages.debian.org site):
mkdir test; cd test
wget http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/leafpad/leafpad_0.8.9-2.dsc
wget http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/leafpad/leafpad_0.8.9.orig.tar.gz
wget http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/leafpad/leafpad_0.8.9-2.diff.gz

# extract the sources:
dpkg-source -x leafpad_0.8.9-2.dsc
cd leafpad-0.8.9

# install leafpad build deps (you can see these from the debian/control file)
apt-get update
fakeroot apt-get install cdbs debhelper pkg-config libgtk2.0-dev gnome-pkg-tools

# resize icon to be suitable for Task Navigator, needs ImageMagick
# (you can install & use ImageMagick outside the Sbox):
convert -geometry '26x26!' leafpad.png tmp.png
mv tmp.png leafpad.png

# Modify the package so that it integrates with Task Navigator
# and Application Installer:
# 1) leafpad.desktop.in:
#   - add /usr/bin/ path to the Exec field leafpad binary name and
# remove any args to it (Exec=/usr/bin/leafpad)
#   - remove the ".png" from the Icon field icon name (Icon=leafpad)
# 2) Makefile.am:
#   - change the desktopdir to $(datadir)/applications/hildon
#   - change the pixmapsdir to $(datadir)/icons/hicolor/26x26/hildon
# 3) debian/control:
#   - set "Section" field to value accepted by application manager
# (Section=user/editors)
# (feel free to file bugs about above incompatibilities)

# Re-generate the Makefiles from the updated Makefile.am
aclocal && automake

# After install, make sure that the icon cache is updated
# (the same should also be in the postrm file).  If the package
# would already have a postinst file, just add the cache update
# line to it:
echo "#!/bin/sh" > debian/leafpad.postinst
echo gtk-update-icon-cache /usr/share/icons/hicolor >> debian/leafpad.postinst
echo "#DEBHELPER#" >> debian/leafpad.postinst

# Build the package:
fakeroot debian/rules binary

# copy the package to the device:
cp ../leafpad_0.8.9-2_armel.deb 

# Use the Application Installer to install Leafpad package
# and test it


Advanced topics
===

* Modify the sources so that:
  - The menubar is removed and menus open from the titlebar to save some
screen space
  - Application acts as a D-BUS service and is launched by Task Navigator
as such
- Application is installed as the default mime-viewer for *.txt files
  For more info, see the maemo.org documentation
* Update the original Debian package so that it's diff contains your
  modifications and updated changelog (hints: use "dch -i" to update
  the changelog and note that "dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot" which
  normally generates a new diff, doesn't like about changes to binary
  files like icons).  For more info, see the Debian information


Links
=

* Maemo/SDK 2.0:
  http://maemo.org/downloads/releases.html

* Debian New Maintainers' Guide:
  http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/index.en.html

* Debian Developer's Reference, Chapter 6 - Best Packaging Practices:
  
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/ch-best-pkging-practices.en.html

* (Old) documentation on GNU Autotools:
  http://sources.redhat.com/autobook/autobook/autobook_toc.html



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Re: [maemo-developers] Sources and documentation

[Marius Gedminas]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 07:38:16AM -0400, Bob Herrmann wrote:
> I know If I rebuild all from the source that I wont have Opera.   Is 
> there anything else besides Opera that is not at the repositories?

As far as I can tell *all* of the standard apps (clock, calculator,
notes, audio player, all the games, etc.) are closed-source.  At least I
cannot find them in
http://repository.maemo.org/dists/mistral/free/source/Sources

Marius Gedminas
-- 
If something has not yet gone wrong then it would ultimately have been
beneficial for it to go wrong.


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[maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...

[Paulo Pires]

I agree with Alessandro in most of his points, but imho you (Alessandro) should be far more reasonable and polite because that's not the correct way for anyone to put their issues/suggestions/critics.It's sad that such a rich opinion had to be written in such terms.
If you're unhappy with your Nokia 770, sell/destroy/give it. But please don't try to convince anyone that you were forced or taken in mistake to buy it, ok? Cause we all know what we can and what we can't do ATM with this device, but we (the people who follows this list, irc channels, etc) see everyday the efforts made by Nokia employees so that this product keeps getting better and better each day.
- Paulo Pires


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Re: [maemo-developers] Sources and documentation

[Bob Herrmann]

I know If I rebuild all from the source that I wont have Opera.   Is 
there anything else besides Opera that is not at the repositories?


Thanks
-bob

Tommi Komulainen wrote:

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 16:24 -0300, ext Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:
  

Bah...
My future features are more realistic:
-source codes;



https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/
http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/
http://repository.maemo.org/pool/sardine/

You can also request the source codes on CD-ROM as per GPL.

The offer naturally only covers the software that is not proprietary. I
am not going argue with rants about whether $proprietary_application
should or is going to be open sourced or not. Today things are the way
they are.

However if you could provide constructive comments about how open
sourcing more (and which specifically) things would benefit Nokia (this
is not free as in beer for us I'm afraid) I'm sure the discussion would
be more fruitful.


  

-more reliable API docs;
-more reliable SDK docs;



How are they not reliable? Missing something? What? Inaccurate? Where?

Again, constructive comment are more likely to get something done. You
could for example file bugs in https://maemo.org/bugzilla/ or add notes
to http://maemo.org/maemowiki/DocumentationWanted . We can't work on the
problems if we don't know what the real problems are.

Please keep in mind that this is the first time Nokia has done open
source on this scale. We're still taking baby steps. But we're willing
to learn, and feedback from the community is appreciated. Unfortunately
rants are rarely helping.


What comes to console applications and such, I'd say that's subjective.
I just can't see the market for such device these days (everyone wants
flashy eye candy), but then again, I'm just a technical person so what
do I know.

We know about your concerns regarding Ogg (and probably BT and GStreamer
as well -- I should probably poke the people in charge.) More often than
not there are good reasons (priorities, resources, cost/benefit, ...)
for these things, we're not doing this to spite you. It's just that some
things are difficult to communicate outside, for whatever reason.


  


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[maemo-developers] SDK vs. device: libSM and libICE

[Christian Henz]

I might be missing something, but I think this is a bug in the SDK:

In the SDK, libSM and libICE are available, while on the device, they are not.

For example VLC's configure.ac script uses AC_PATH_XTRA() 
from /usr/share/autoconf/autoconf/libs.m4, which correctly finds libSM and 
libICE in the SDK and adds them to the libs to link to the x11 plugin. On the 
device of course the x11 plugin will then fail to load because the libs 
cannot be found.

I think the libs should be removed from the SDK (or at least be made 
removable). For that to happen, some dependencies would have to be resolved, 
ie xlibs-dev.

cheers,
Christian Henz
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Henri Sivonen]

On Aug 29, 2006, at 12:22, Kuosmanen Tuomas (Nokia-M/Helsinki) wrote:


The fact that the
environment uses its own gtk (while a lot of stuff is being pushed
upstream) - this forces you to use a chroot environment. While
scratchbox does a lot of things for you to make things less nasty,  
it's
a whole new thing to learn for the most of us. And it's far from  
trivial

anyway.


Is GTK from Maemo expected to compile (for the host itself) on  
desktop Linux or Mac OS X? What about Hildon?


How much work would be required for making Python development  
possible on any *nix style platform with an X server by compiling GTK  
and Hildon and their Python wrappers for the hosting architecture and  
installing them in a non-conventional directory prefix to prevent  
conflicts with the usual GTK installation?


(BTW, it would be nice if the source download page documented the  
right svn incantations for pulling the source corresponding to the  
OS2006 release.)


--
Henri Sivonen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/


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RE: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Kuosmanen Tuomas (Nokia-M/Helsinki)]

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 01:00 +0200, ext Hartmut Henkel wrote:
> Just to add here: i have one of these Nokias with the broken LCD
> (vertical stripes). Actually i don't even believe that the LCD is
> broken, it looks like a wrong setting of the LCD (with the old HP pocket
> calculators you could tweak the contrast by pressing ON and +/-).

I have replaced the screen component of one such striped one and it
worked with the new screen, no software changes. That sounds to me like
broken hardware rather than a software bug.

//T

-- 
A: No
Q: Should i quote this on the top?
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[maemo-developers] Sources and documentation (was: Future features for Maemo Desktop)

[Tommi Komulainen]

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 16:24 -0300, ext Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:
> Bah...
> My future features are more realistic:
> -source codes;

https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/
http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/
http://repository.maemo.org/pool/sardine/

You can also request the source codes on CD-ROM as per GPL.

The offer naturally only covers the software that is not proprietary. I
am not going argue with rants about whether $proprietary_application
should or is going to be open sourced or not. Today things are the way
they are.

However if you could provide constructive comments about how open
sourcing more (and which specifically) things would benefit Nokia (this
is not free as in beer for us I'm afraid) I'm sure the discussion would
be more fruitful.


> -more reliable API docs;
> -more reliable SDK docs;

How are they not reliable? Missing something? What? Inaccurate? Where?

Again, constructive comment are more likely to get something done. You
could for example file bugs in https://maemo.org/bugzilla/ or add notes
to http://maemo.org/maemowiki/DocumentationWanted . We can't work on the
problems if we don't know what the real problems are.

Please keep in mind that this is the first time Nokia has done open
source on this scale. We're still taking baby steps. But we're willing
to learn, and feedback from the community is appreciated. Unfortunately
rants are rarely helping.


What comes to console applications and such, I'd say that's subjective.
I just can't see the market for such device these days (everyone wants
flashy eye candy), but then again, I'm just a technical person so what
do I know.

We know about your concerns regarding Ogg (and probably BT and GStreamer
as well -- I should probably poke the people in charge.) More often than
not there are good reasons (priorities, resources, cost/benefit, ...)
for these things, we're not doing this to spite you. It's just that some
things are difficult to communicate outside, for whatever reason.


-- 
Tommi Komulainen<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Kuosmanen Tuomas (Nokia-M/Helsinki)]

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 22:56 +0200, ext Christian Pernegger wrote:
> > I am just telling some truths that others should know.
> 
> I'm with you insofar as
> - setting up the developent environment was a bitch
[zap]
>  A lot of people, me included, don't have a clue
> about cross-compiling or embedded development.

Yes, I think this is one of the reasons why. The fact that the
environment uses its own gtk (while a lot of stuff is being pushed
upstream) - this forces you to use a chroot environment. While
scratchbox does a lot of things for you to make things less nasty, it's
a whole new thing to learn for the most of us. And it's far from trivial
anyway.

But please, while you criticize "nokia" remember a lot of us are just as
much a part of the community as you are. It's been said earlier too -
look at Sardine, and see how things are being worked on. Perhaps slower
than you wish, but I also wish it happened faster. There's just a LOT of
stuff that has dependencies on how the daily progress happens, and stuff
does not change overnight for that reason. :-(

//Tuomas

-- 
A: No
Q: Should i quote this on the top?
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