Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 21:23:38 -0500 "Kaleb C. Striplin"
 wrote:

> I got my trailer ready to go

The vultures are circling.

Here's hoping they get driven away.  :-)


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

I got my trailer ready to go

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2013, at 7:01 PM, "WILTON"  wrote:

> Awaiting oil analysis report on the 350SDL.
> 
> Wilton
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Kaleb C. Striplin" 
> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
> 
> 
>> Speaking of which what is the deal with the sdl?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jul 30, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "WILTON"  wrote:
>> 
>>> $1400+ from Keenan for one for my 350D.
>>> 
>>> Wilton
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message - From: "Mike Esh" 
>>> To: "Okie Benz" 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:43 AM
>>> Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his 
>>>> supplier in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I 
>>>> thought it would be much more.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> Michael E. Esh
>>>> me...@horizonenv.com
>>>> michael...@mac.com
>>>> http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
>>>> (C) 231.286.2344
>>>> ___
>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>> 
>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>> 
>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:01:19 -0400 "WILTON"  wrote:

> Awaiting oil analysis report on the 350SDL.

We are waiting to hear, too.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[WILTON]

Awaiting oil analysis report on the 350SDL.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Kaleb C. Striplin" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.



Speaking of which what is the deal with the sdl?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "WILTON"  wrote:


$1400+ from Keenan for one for my 350D.

Wilton

- Original Message - From: "Mike Esh" 
To: "Okie Benz" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:43 AM
Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.


Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his 
supplier in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I 
thought it would be much more.


Mike

Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

Speaking of which what is the deal with the sdl?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "WILTON"  wrote:

> $1400+ from Keenan for one for my 350D.
> 
> Wilton
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Mike Esh" 
> To: "Okie Benz" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:43 AM
> Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
> 
> 
>> Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his 
>> supplier in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I 
>> thought it would be much more.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> Michael E. Esh
>> me...@horizonenv.com
>> michael...@mac.com
>> http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
>> (C) 231.286.2344
>> ___
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>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

No

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2013, at 10:43 AM, Mike Esh  wrote:

> Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his 
> supplier in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I 
> thought it would be much more.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Michael E. Esh
> me...@horizonenv.com
> michael...@mac.com
> http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
> (C) 231.286.2344
> ___
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[MG]

Williams Diesel down here in Ocala, fl had them for $395 about a 
year ago. All rebuilt and tested.


Manfred


Mike Esh wrote:
Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his 
supplier in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I 
thought it would be much more.


Mike



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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[WILTON]

$1400+ for rebuilt, I think, for 350D from Keenan.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Scott Ritchey" 

To: "'Mercedes Discussion List'" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.




I know Mike said new OEM. But $600 sounds awful cheap for a new Bosch IP. 
A

new Doowan (Zexel clone) IP for my 4-cylinder Korean tractor is $1200-1500
and that pump is just the top end of the Mercedes pump (the IP cam is
integral to the block).

So I'd be inclined to ask a few more questions before going for a "new" 
IP.
But I'd only consider the new IP after first verifying that the installed 
IP

is in time (not likely) and verifying that the two other IPs on hand are
bad.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch
Haley
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 3:16 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

Mitch Haley wrote:

rickknoble wrote:

New to you? Or OEM NOS?


I wonder if it's Bosch or the Indian company that made those turbo OM616
clones?
$600 is probably half the cost of having a pump rebuilt.


Oops, disregard.
Mike said New OEM.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Scott Ritchey]

I know Mike said new OEM. But $600 sounds awful cheap for a new Bosch IP.  A
new Doowan (Zexel clone) IP for my 4-cylinder Korean tractor is $1200-1500
and that pump is just the top end of the Mercedes pump (the IP cam is
integral to the block).  

So I'd be inclined to ask a few more questions before going for a "new" IP.
But I'd only consider the new IP after first verifying that the installed IP
is in time (not likely) and verifying that the two other IPs on hand are
bad.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch
Haley
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 3:16 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

Mitch Haley wrote:
> rickknoble wrote:
>> New to you? Or OEM NOS? 
> 
> I wonder if it's Bosch or the Indian company that made those turbo OM616 
> clones?
> $600 is probably half the cost of having a pump rebuilt.

Oops, disregard.
Mike said New OEM.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

No way that it s new pump.

It cost me $600 to get a OM621 pump rebuilt and tested 30+ years ago. 
A rebuilt pump for $600 with no core charge is a bargain... if it was 
done properly.  That is the question.




Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from 
his supplier in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump 
realistic?  I thought it would be much more.


Mike

Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Mitch Haley wrote:

rickknoble wrote:
New to you? Or OEM NOS? 


I wonder if it's Bosch or the Indian company that made those turbo OM616 
clones?

$600 is probably half the cost of having a pump rebuilt.


Oops, disregard.
Mike said New OEM.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

rickknoble wrote:
New to you? Or OEM NOS? 


I wonder if it's Bosch or the Indian company that made those turbo OM616 clones?
$600 is probably half the cost of having a pump rebuilt.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 14:03:14 -0400 Mike Esh  wrote:

> OEM NOS.  

That's a reasonable price, but you do know two things:

1. Your mechanic is stringing you on, wasting your time and money,
   because he does not know how to time a Benz injection pump.

2. It has not been proven that you do need a new pump.


Craig



> Michael E. Esh
> 231-286-2344
> 
> 
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rickknoble  wrote:
> 
> > New to you? Or OEM NOS? 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Rick Knoble
> > 
> > Sent from My Samsung tabletMike Esh  wrote:Latest
> > developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his
> > supplier in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump
> > realistic?  I thought it would be much more.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > Michael E. Esh
> > me...@horizonenv.com
> > michael...@mac.com
> > http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
> > (C) 231.286.2344
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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> 




Craig

--
Present:'95 E320Sebastian  117 kmi
'94 E420Oskar  127 kmi (awaiting parting out)
'82 240D/3.0Bluebell   267 kmi (leaking diesel from somewhere
in the engine compartment)
Past:   '86 190E/2.3
'72 220/8
'64 190Dc   Emma
'72 220D/8  Herman 186 kmi

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[OK Don]

Don't you have three pumps now, with one in the car? If you're going to
send one off to be bench tested, send two. If the first one they test is
OK, don't test the second one, just ship it back, or sell it at core value
(if there is any) to them. Might have time if the first one it not good. My
two cents worth . . .
I think Grant has the right approach.

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:24 PM, G Mann  wrote:

> Conestoga Diesel Injection
>
> 1321 Byerland church Rd.
>
> Willow Street PA, 17584-9776
>
> Hours: Monday through Friday 8:00AM to 5:00PM
>
> Phone 717-806-5561  FAX 717-806-5572
>
>
> Again, call Mel, the owner, and tell him what you have for a pump, ask him
> to BENCH CHECK THE PUMP ONLY, and give you are report. You will spend less
> time and money knowing you have a KNOWN GOOD PUMP to start with than you
> will farting around paying the Indy to try different timing methods.




-- 
OK Don
2013 F150, 19 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 45 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

OEM NOS.  

Michael E. Esh
231-286-2344


On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rickknoble  wrote:

> New to you? Or OEM NOS? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Knoble
> 
> Sent from My Samsung tabletMike Esh  wrote:Latest 
> developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in 
> California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I thought it would 
> be much more.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Michael E. Esh
> me...@horizonenv.com
> michael...@mac.com
> http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
> (C) 231.286.2344
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[rickknoble]

New to you? Or OEM NOS? 




Rick Knoble

Sent from My Samsung tabletMike Esh  wrote:Latest 
developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in 
California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I thought it would 
be much more.

Mike

Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[G Mann]

Conestoga Diesel Injection

1321 Byerland church Rd.

Willow Street PA, 17584-9776

Hours: Monday through Friday 8:00AM to 5:00PM

Phone 717-806-5561  FAX 717-806-5572


Again, call Mel, the owner, and tell him what you have for a pump, ask him
to BENCH CHECK THE PUMP ONLY, and give you are report. You will spend less
time and money knowing you have a KNOWN GOOD PUMP to start with than you
will farting around paying the Indy to try different timing methods.

I have known Mel since 2007 through another diesel board [Ford IDI Trucks].
He has a well earned reputation of excellent customer service and straight
up dealing. If it's good, he will tell you, if it's bad, he will tell you.
If you call him he will quote you a bench test shop rate up front. He is
east of Mississippi so shipping should be short and cheap. You are
obviously not driving the car till it's sorted.. what's a couple days to
know for sure what you have?

Start from a solid foundation of knowing the IP is serviceable, THEN sort
out what ever timing or injector issues you have.

Grant...

Who has been doing this kind of stuff for a few decades.. successfully.



On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Scott Ritchey  wrote:

>
> Mike, back in the day, these IPs were famous for longevity.  In fact, used
> IPs were dirt cheap because nobody needed them.  Now, with ULSD and WVO,
> that may no longer be the case but it's unlikely that a used IP from a
> reliable source would be bad.
>
> Still, I think you will be better served by testing your spare IP than
> getting a remam (of unknown provenance).
>
> I don't know your mechanical skill or experience.  But (if it were me) I
> would be dubious about going another round with your current mechanic/shop.
> No aspersions on the mechanic, per se, but he seems to lack experience with
> mechanical inline diesel injection systems.  If somebody has to learn this
> stuff the hard way (trial and error), it may as well be you.
>
> Scott
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mike
> Esh
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:13 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
>
> My next step is to get one of the pumps that we have tried tested by Bosch
> Service Center.  If it checks out, I try the install myself.  If it is junk
> I buy rebuilt and have them put it in.
> Mike?
>
> Michael E. Esh
> me...@horizonenv.com
> michael...@mac.com
> http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
> (C) 231.286.2344
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2013, at 06:07 PM, Craig  wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig  wrote:
> >
> >> I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the
> >> less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it
> >> doesn't work
> >
> > (oops)
> >
> > you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well.
> >
> > It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to
> > spend the money to have a pump checked out.
> >
> > If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested
> > and, if necessary, repaired.
> >
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > ___
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> >
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Scott Ritchey]

Mike, back in the day, these IPs were famous for longevity.  In fact, used
IPs were dirt cheap because nobody needed them.  Now, with ULSD and WVO,
that may no longer be the case but it's unlikely that a used IP from a
reliable source would be bad.  

Still, I think you will be better served by testing your spare IP than
getting a remam (of unknown provenance).  

I don't know your mechanical skill or experience.  But (if it were me) I
would be dubious about going another round with your current mechanic/shop.
No aspersions on the mechanic, per se, but he seems to lack experience with
mechanical inline diesel injection systems.  If somebody has to learn this
stuff the hard way (trial and error), it may as well be you.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mike Esh
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:13 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

My next step is to get one of the pumps that we have tried tested by Bosch
Service Center.  If it checks out, I try the install myself.  If it is junk
I buy rebuilt and have them put it in.  
Mike?

Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344


On Jul 29, 2013, at 06:07 PM, Craig  wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig  wrote:
>
>> I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the
>> less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it
>> doesn't work
>
> (oops)
>
> you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well.
>
> It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to
> spend the money to have a pump checked out.
>
> If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested
> and, if necessary, repaired.
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[WILTON]

$1400+ from Keenan for one for my 350D.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Esh" 

To: "Okie Benz" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:43 AM
Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.


Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his 
supplier in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I 
thought it would be much more.


Mike

Michael E. Esh
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

Garage guy does not know you need a new pump.  He is not doing the job
right and expects you to throw money at a new pump for him to not time
right.  I am not trying to be a jackass but when are you going to wise up
and tell this guy you are through with him wasting your time and money?

Mike
On Jul 30, 2013 11:43 AM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:

> Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his
> supplier in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I
> thought it would be much more.
>
> Mike
>
> Michael E. Esh
> me...@horizonenv.com
> michael...@mac.com
> http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123
> (C) 231.286.2344
> __**_
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>
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Scott Ritchey]

Mike, 

Unless you just want to throw money at it, first check the timing of the
currently installed IP.  It is not hard and costs next to nothing.  You have
the instructions.  The hardest part is removing the valve cover and I think
you can even skip that if you can see the #1 cylinder valves well enough
through the oil fill hole (I have a 617, not 616 so I'm not sure about this
on a 616).  You do need to remove the #1 injector line but that's easy.  Do
the "fuel welling up" test first, that doesn't require the drip tool or
removing the delivery valve.  You can make a drip tool from an old piece of
injector pipe or buy one pretty cheap to do the more precise drip or the
bubble method (just like drip but with air).  

It will cost a few $$ to run an IP through a real test stand at a good
Diesel shop and it will cost more to get a reman IP (which could also be
faulty).  The fact that two "good when removed" replacement IPs produced the
same result implies that your problem is not the actual IP.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mike Esh
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:44 AM
To: Okie Benz
Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his
supplier in California for $600?.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I
thought it would be much more.

Mike

Michael E. Esh
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[MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier 
in California for $600.  Is $600.00 for new pump realistic?  I thought it 
would be much more.

Mike

Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

Mike,
  I suggest you try the install yourself before spending money on a pump.
Your mechanic has proven he doesn't know what he is doing.  You can do a
better job yourself with the help of the listers who have already told you
how to do it with basic tools and knowhow.  If you can follow instructions
precisely then you can do the job and end your frustrations.

Mike
On Jul 30, 2013 10:12 AM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:

> My next step is to get one of the pumps that we have tried tested by Bosch
> Service Center.  If it checks out, I try the install myself.  If it is junk
> I buy rebuilt and have them put it in.  Mike
>
> Michael E. Esh
> me...@horizonenv.com
> michael...@mac.com
> http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123
> (C) 231.286.2344
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2013, at 06:07 PM, Craig  wrote:
>
>  On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig  wrote:
>>
>>  I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the
>>> less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it
>>> doesn't work
>>>
>>
>> (oops)
>>
>> you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well.
>>
>> It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to
>> spend the money to have a pump checked out.
>>
>> If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested
>> and, if necessary, repaired.
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> __**_
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>>
>> To search list archives 
>> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

My next step is to get one of the pumps that we have tried tested by Bosch Service Center.  If it checks out, I try the install myself.  If it is junk I buy rebuilt and have them put it in.  
Mike


Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
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(C) 231.286.2344


On Jul 29, 2013, at 06:07 PM, Craig  wrote:


On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig  wrote:


I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the
less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it
doesn't work


(oops)

you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well.

It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to
spend the money to have a pump checked out.

If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested
and, if necessary, repaired.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

That is my next step.
Thanks,
mike

Michael E. Esh
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michael...@mac.com
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(C) 231.286.2344


On Jul 29, 2013, at 04:45 PM, G Mann  wrote:


First question, I believe, is still not answered. That is the question, Is
this pump in good serviceable condition?

Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that question be
answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with a working IP flow
bench and specs for the Benz pump.

Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes made by
the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing?

Just my $0.02 worth..

Grant...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Craig  wrote:


On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
> NO! NO! NO! You can't turn the engine over with the starter when
> timing!!!
I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the
continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over.
Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the
first clue about timing a Benz injection pump.
If I were closer I would come and do it for him
BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I
recall.
Craig
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

Western Michigan

Michael E. Esh
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michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344


On Jul 29, 2013, at 03:42 PM, Craig  wrote:


On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


NO! NO! NO! You can't turn the engine over with the starter when
timing!!!


I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the
continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over.

Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the
first clue about timing a Benz injection pump.

If I were closer I would come and do it for him

BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I
recall.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig  wrote:

> I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the
> less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it
> doesn't work

(oops)

you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well.

It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to
spend the money to have a pump checked out.

If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested
and, if necessary, repaired.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:59:40 -0500 Randy Bennell 
wrote:

> On 29/07/2013 3:45 PM, G Mann wrote:
> > Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that
> > question be answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with
> > a working IP flow bench and specs for the Benz pump.
> >
> > Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes
> > made by the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing?
> >
> Why not time it from scratch and see if it works?
> If it does not, then maybe have it checked out, or find another one to
> try.
> 
> Randy who suspects sending it out will be expensive and might not prove
> much

I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the
less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it
doesn't work

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Craig wrote:


BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I
recall.


Mike Esh is about 100 miles west of me, near Lake Michigan.
Mike Canfield is in NY somewhere IIRC.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Randy Bennell]

On 29/07/2013 3:45 PM, G Mann wrote:

First question, I believe, is still not answered. That is the question, Is
this pump in good serviceable condition?

Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that question be
answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with a working IP flow
bench and specs for the Benz pump.

Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes made by
the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing?

Just my $0.02 worth..

Grant...



Why not time it from scratch and see if it works?
If it does not, then maybe have it checked out, or find another one to try.

Randy who suspects sending it out will be expensive and might not prove much

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

agreed.for the last question:  We know where the timing is.  It 
is out of time.




First question, I believe, is still not answered. That is the question, Is
this pump in good serviceable condition?

Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that question be
answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with a working IP flow
bench and specs for the Benz pump.

Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes made by
the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing?

Just my $0.02 worth..

Grant...


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[G Mann]

First question, I believe, is still not answered. That is the question, Is
this pump in good serviceable condition?

Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that question be
answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with a working IP flow
bench and specs for the Benz pump.

Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes made by
the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing?

Just my $0.02 worth..

Grant...

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Craig  wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > NO! NO! NO!   You can't turn the engine over with the starter when
> > timing!!!
>
> I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the
> continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over.
>
> Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the
> first clue about timing a Benz injection pump.
>
> If I were closer I would come and do it for him
>
> BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I
> recall.
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

Michigan maybe?

Mike C.
>From NY about 500 miles to far away.
On Jul 29, 2013 3:42 PM, "Craig"  wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > NO! NO! NO!   You can't turn the engine over with the starter when
> > timing!!!
>
> I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the
> continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over.
>
> Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the
> first clue about timing a Benz injection pump.
>
> If I were closer I would come and do it for him
>
> BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I
> recall.
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> NO! NO! NO!   You can't turn the engine over with the starter when
> timing!!!

I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the
continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over.

Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the
first clue about timing a Benz injection pump.

If I were closer I would come and do it for him

BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I
recall.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[MG]

Also need to keep in mind that there are some pumps with the 
Bosch production number 251 that may have the mark on the housing 
in the wrong place. Not all of them either. It should be under 
the approximate middle of a bolt if it isn't then you need to set 
the gear mark three teeth to the left of the housing mark so the 
mark on the gear ends up under the middle of the bolt. It's in 
the manual for replacing the pump with pictures and all.


Manfred

Dieselhead wrote:



Check the timing mark on the front of the IP.


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

You need to find or make a drip tube and use it 
correctly, it's not all that hard.  You and 
cheat with some clear plastic tubing if you 
cannot find a drip tube.


Remove the #1 injector line, remove the pressure 
valve holder and pressure valve.  Replace the 
pressure valve holder.  This is to allow you to 
see when the plunger covers the feed port in the 
sleeve inside the pump.  Attach the drip tube or 
clear plastic line to the injector line fitting. 
Aim the drip tube off the side of the pump and 
be prepared for the fuel that will run out.


wire the throttle linkage wide open and operate 
the manual lift pump to pressurize the feed 
chamber in the IP while rotating the engine by 
hand.  Fuel should flow freely from the drip 
tube until you reach 26 degress on the 
compression stroke, at which point it should 
abruply cease or greatly diminish.  This is the 
point at which the feed orifice in the sleeve is 
covered by the plunger and fuel pressure in the 
IP set should start rising toward injection 
pressure.


This is the best method to determine if you have pump timing correct.
Rotate the pump  slightly get obtain the flow 
reduction at 26 degrees before top dead center 
on the compression stroke of #1.


Once you get the injection timing correct, you 
will know if you have a pump problem or not.  It 
doesn't take more than a tooth off on the sleeve 
that connects the IP to the timing device to 
result in a poorly running engine.


good luck!

Peter



All correct, but in this case, I'd bet the pump 
is off by at least one tooth on the drive, so I 
would modify the third paragraph thusly:


Fuel should flow freely from the drip tube until 
you reach the "beginning of fuel delivery" at 
which point the fuel flow at the drip tube should 
abruptly cease or greatly diminish.  (See the 
book section on injection timing)   Beginning of 
fuel delivery is supposed to be 26 degrees on the 
compression stroke.


Once you determine how many degrees the 
beginning of delivery is off, then you can figure 
out how many teeth the ip of off at the drive. 
THen you have to take out the pump and try to get 
it in the right tooth.  This will probably take 
you several tries.  Reading the book may help, 
but I found that it was best to set the IP cam 
where it will stay without a locking device with 
the #1 cam on the way up to delivery.  Then turn 
the engine to 45º BTDC and install the pump and 
see how close you are for timing.  (it will 
probably be late for beginning of delivery on #1. 
So you will need to determine how many degrees 
retarded it is, remove the pump, then turn the 
engine crank over 720º minus the number of 
degrees retarded, and install the pump again. 
THis time you should be right on.


Check the timing mark on the front of the IP.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

Thanks Manfred,
He used an engine starter button to turn the 
engine over and we did not see the welling up, 
only spurting.  I will pass along this 
information to him and we sill start again on 
Monday.  My lack of knowledge as well as his is 
become glaringly apparent.  I will be talking to 
the owner on Monday about this.  Is there a 
manual or specific instructions about how to 
time the pump that I need to purchase and or 
read and take to the mechanic.

Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this.
Mike




NO! NO! NO!   You can't turn the engine over with the starter when timing!!!

 As Manfred said, once you find the approximate 
location of the START of injection (that needs to 
line up with the correct degrees BTDC, then you 
turn the engine over by hand with a socket on the 
crankshaftt big bolt about 700º  (just under two 
full revolutions) then very, very slwly until 
the drip tube stops running and just starts to 
drip (With the DV pin out) or, using my Q&D 
method, until the fuel in the 2mm dia part of the 
bore in the #1 DV union just barely starts to 
move (like .005")


RTFB  OM616/617 engine book. (paper)

Timing a diesel is NOTHING like timing a gasser. 
Static timing a gassser is similar to timing a 
Diesel, but not nearly as much precision is 
required.


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Scott Ritchey]

I think I'm wrong here.  Looking at the 617 engine, I think the timing marks
are on the balance plate (not the vibration damper) which is hard mounted
and pinned to the crank.  Sorry for the red herring.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Ritchey
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 5:31 PM
To: 'Mercedes Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.


One other thought, is it possible for vibration damper (the thing with the
TDC and crank angle indications on the front of the crank shaft) to fail and
slip such that it indicates the wrong angle?  I had this happen on a 86 ford
transverse V6 (the rubber bond between the hub and outer rung failed) but I
don't know if it's possible or likely on Mike's engine?

Scott

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Frederick
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 10:11 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

You need to find or make a drip tube and use it correctly, it's not  
all that hard.  You and cheat with some clear plastic tubing if you  
cannot find a drip tube.

Remove the #1 injector line, remove the pressure valve holder and  
pressure valve.  Replace the pressure valve holder.  This is to allow  
you to see when the plunger covers the feed port in the sleeve inside  
the pump.  Attach the drip tube or clear plastic line to the injector  
line fitting.  Aim the drip tube off the side of the pump and be  
prepared for the fuel that will run out.

wire the throttle linkage wide open and operate the manual lift pump  
to pressurize the feed chamber in the IP while rotating the engine by  
hand.  Fuel should flow freely from the drip tube until you reach 26  
degress on the compression stroke, at which point it should abruply  
cease or greatly diminish.  This is the point at which the feed  
orifice in the sleeve is covered by the plunger and fuel pressure in  
the IP set should start rising toward injection pressure.

This is the best method to determine if you have pump timing correct.   
Rotate the pump  slightly get obtain the flow reduction at 26 degrees  
before top dead center on the compression stroke of #1.

Once you get the injection timing correct, you will know if you have a  
pump problem or not.  It doesn't take more than a tooth off on the  
sleeve that connects the IP to the timing device to result in a poorly  
running engine.

good luck!

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Scott Ritchey]

One other thought, is it possible for vibration damper (the thing with the
TDC and crank angle indications on the front of the crank shaft) to fail and
slip such that it indicates the wrong angle?  I had this happen on a 86 ford
transverse V6 (the rubber bond between the hub and outer rung failed) but I
don't know if it's possible or likely on Mike's engine?

Scott

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Frederick
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 10:11 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

You need to find or make a drip tube and use it correctly, it's not  
all that hard.  You and cheat with some clear plastic tubing if you  
cannot find a drip tube.

Remove the #1 injector line, remove the pressure valve holder and  
pressure valve.  Replace the pressure valve holder.  This is to allow  
you to see when the plunger covers the feed port in the sleeve inside  
the pump.  Attach the drip tube or clear plastic line to the injector  
line fitting.  Aim the drip tube off the side of the pump and be  
prepared for the fuel that will run out.

wire the throttle linkage wide open and operate the manual lift pump  
to pressurize the feed chamber in the IP while rotating the engine by  
hand.  Fuel should flow freely from the drip tube until you reach 26  
degress on the compression stroke, at which point it should abruply  
cease or greatly diminish.  This is the point at which the feed  
orifice in the sleeve is covered by the plunger and fuel pressure in  
the IP set should start rising toward injection pressure.

This is the best method to determine if you have pump timing correct.   
Rotate the pump  slightly get obtain the flow reduction at 26 degrees  
before top dead center on the compression stroke of #1.

Once you get the injection timing correct, you will know if you have a  
pump problem or not.  It doesn't take more than a tooth off on the  
sleeve that connects the IP to the timing device to result in a poorly  
running engine.

good luck!

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Scott Ritchey]

Yes.  It must be turned very slowly and by hand.  The crankshaft is optimal
but hard to reach, especially while watching the IP, valve rockers, and
crank angle. I have had good luck turning the engine using the nut on the
power steering pump (assumes correct belt tension).

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Canfield
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:16 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them
then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in the
past.  There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an
accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out.  He
needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so
he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts.

Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead of
a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork.

Mike
On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, "Michael Esh"  wrote:

> Thanks Manfred,
> He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not
> see the welling up, only spurting.  I will pass along this information to
> him and we sill start again on Monday.  My lack of knowledge as well as
his
> is become glaringly apparent.  I will be talking to the owner on Monday
> about this.  Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time
> the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic.
> Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this.
> Mike
>
> On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote:
>
> > Can't tell from your description.
> >
> > 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as
> the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke
> then we go to--
> >
> > 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of
> like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a
> great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that
> price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not
quantify
> anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to
'drip'
> not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very
> specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close
> watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the
> connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of
> the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting
> out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and
therefor
> out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should
> start.
> >
> > From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I
> have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I
> have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough
> to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a
> general description is impossible.
> >
> > Manfred
> >
> > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400
> > From: Michael Esh 
> >
> >
> > Thanks Manfred.  I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up
> with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched
the
> fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees.  Does this mean it
> is in the proper range?   The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly
>  installed the pump at 180 opposite.  He said he did this by setting up
the
> pump normally and setting engine at 180.  He was then going put things
back
> together and give it a try.  I had to leave at that point
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Gerry Archer]

Read about a man who had a boat with a diesel engine that had similar
problems.  He called an injection pump rebuild shop, explained his problem,
and asked them to recommend a mechanic who could help.  The diesel mechanic
they recommended worked primarily on heavy machinery, trucks, and the diesel
cooling units for big trucks.  He was "on call" for truck stops, road
construction companies, and others.  He came out to the mans boat, fixed the
problem fairly quickly, charged him a fair price, and the engine ran fine
from then on.
Gerry

From: "Michael Canfield" 

There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them
then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in
the
past.  There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an
accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out.  He
needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so
he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts.

Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead
of
a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork.

Mike
On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, "Michael Esh"  wrote:


Thanks Manfred,
He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not
see the welling up, only spurting.  I will pass along this information to
him and we sill start again on Monday.  My lack of knowledge as well as
his
is become glaringly apparent.  I will be talking to the owner on Monday
about this.  Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time
the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic.
Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this.
Mike

On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote:

> Can't tell from your description.
>
> 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as
the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke
then we go to--
>
> 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of
like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a
great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what
that
price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not
quantify
anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to
'drip'
not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a
very
specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very
close
watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the
connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of
the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting
out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and
therefor
out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should
start.
>
> From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I
have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I
have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough
to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a
general description is impossible.
>
> Manfred
>
> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400
> From: Michael Esh 
>
>
> Thanks Manfred.  I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up
with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched
the
fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees.  Does this mean it
is in the proper range?   The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly
 installed the pump at 180 opposite.  He said he did this by setting up
the
pump normally and setting engine at 180.  He was then going put things
back
together and give it a try.  I had to leave at that point
> Mike
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Peter Frederick]

You need to find or make a drip tube and use it correctly, it's not  
all that hard.  You and cheat with some clear plastic tubing if you  
cannot find a drip tube.


Remove the #1 injector line, remove the pressure valve holder and  
pressure valve.  Replace the pressure valve holder.  This is to allow  
you to see when the plunger covers the feed port in the sleeve inside  
the pump.  Attach the drip tube or clear plastic line to the injector  
line fitting.  Aim the drip tube off the side of the pump and be  
prepared for the fuel that will run out.


wire the throttle linkage wide open and operate the manual lift pump  
to pressurize the feed chamber in the IP while rotating the engine by  
hand.  Fuel should flow freely from the drip tube until you reach 26  
degress on the compression stroke, at which point it should abruply  
cease or greatly diminish.  This is the point at which the feed  
orifice in the sleeve is covered by the plunger and fuel pressure in  
the IP set should start rising toward injection pressure.


This is the best method to determine if you have pump timing correct.   
Rotate the pump  slightly get obtain the flow reduction at 26 degrees  
before top dead center on the compression stroke of #1.


Once you get the injection timing correct, you will know if you have a  
pump problem or not.  It doesn't take more than a tooth off on the  
sleeve that connects the IP to the timing device to result in a poorly  
running engine.


good luck!

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

So, how close to Mike is the nearest lister that has a clue about how to
get this thing running?  Sounds like maybe he just needs a day of fiddling
around by someone who knows just how precise Diesel timing needs to be.

Mike
On Jul 27, 2013 9:37 AM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:

> Yes, I am coming to that conclusion myself. My faith in a competent
> mechanic has faded away.
>
> Michael E. Esh
> 231-286-2344
>
>
> On Jul 27, 2013, at 9:15 AM, Michael Canfield  wrote:
>
> > There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them
> > then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in
> the
> > past.  There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an
> > accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out.  He
> > needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so
> > he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts.
> >
> > Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead
> of
> > a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork.
> >
> > Mike
> > On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, "Michael Esh"  wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks Manfred,
> >> He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not
> >> see the welling up, only spurting.  I will pass along this information
> to
> >> him and we sill start again on Monday.  My lack of knowledge as well as
> his
> >> is become glaringly apparent.  I will be talking to the owner on Monday
> >> about this.  Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to
> time
> >> the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic.
> >> Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this.
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote:
> >>
> >>> Can't tell from your description.
> >>>
> >>> 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as
> >> the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke
> >> then we go to--
> >>>
> >>> 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of
> >> like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you
> a
> >> great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what
> that
> >> price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not
> quantify
> >> anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to
> 'drip'
> >> not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a
> very
> >> specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very
> close
> >> watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the
> >> connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase
> of
> >> the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting
> >> out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and
> therefor
> >> out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should
> >> start.
> >>>
> >>> From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I
> >> have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I
> >> have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard
> enough
> >> to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a
> >> general description is impossible.
> >>>
> >>> Manfred
> >>>
> >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400
> >>> From: Michael Esh 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Manfred.  I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up
> >> with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched
> the
> >> fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees.  Does this mean
> it
> >> is in the proper range?   The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly
> >> installed the pump at 180 opposite.  He said he did this by setting up
> the
> >> pump normally and setting engine at 180.  He was then going put things
> back
> >> together and give it a try.  I had to leave at that point
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>>
> >>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>>
> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
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> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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> >
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

Yes, I am coming to that conclusion myself. My faith in a competent mechanic 
has faded away. 

Michael E. Esh
231-286-2344


On Jul 27, 2013, at 9:15 AM, Michael Canfield  wrote:

> There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them
> then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in the
> past.  There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an
> accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out.  He
> needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so
> he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts.
> 
> Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead of
> a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork.
> 
> Mike
> On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, "Michael Esh"  wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Manfred,
>> He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not
>> see the welling up, only spurting.  I will pass along this information to
>> him and we sill start again on Monday.  My lack of knowledge as well as his
>> is become glaringly apparent.  I will be talking to the owner on Monday
>> about this.  Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time
>> the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic.
>> Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this.
>> Mike
>> 
>> On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote:
>> 
>>> Can't tell from your description.
>>> 
>>> 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as
>> the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke
>> then we go to--
>>> 
>>> 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of
>> like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a
>> great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that
>> price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify
>> anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip'
>> not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very
>> specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close
>> watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the
>> connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of
>> the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting
>> out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor
>> out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should
>> start.
>>> 
>>> From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I
>> have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I
>> have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough
>> to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a
>> general description is impossible.
>>> 
>>> Manfred
>>> 
>>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400
>>> From: Michael Esh 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks Manfred.  I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up
>> with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the
>> fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees.  Does this mean it
>> is in the proper range?   The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly
>> installed the pump at 180 opposite.  He said he did this by setting up the
>> pump normally and setting engine at 180.  He was then going put things back
>> together and give it a try.  I had to leave at that point
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them
then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in the
past.  There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an
accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out.  He
needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so
he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts.

Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead of
a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork.

Mike
On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, "Michael Esh"  wrote:

> Thanks Manfred,
> He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not
> see the welling up, only spurting.  I will pass along this information to
> him and we sill start again on Monday.  My lack of knowledge as well as his
> is become glaringly apparent.  I will be talking to the owner on Monday
> about this.  Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time
> the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic.
> Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this.
> Mike
>
> On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote:
>
> > Can't tell from your description.
> >
> > 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as
> the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke
> then we go to--
> >
> > 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of
> like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a
> great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that
> price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify
> anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip'
> not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very
> specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close
> watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the
> connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of
> the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting
> out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor
> out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should
> start.
> >
> > From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I
> have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I
> have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough
> to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a
> general description is impossible.
> >
> > Manfred
> >
> > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400
> > From: Michael Esh 
> >
> >
> > Thanks Manfred.  I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up
> with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the
> fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees.  Does this mean it
> is in the proper range?   The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly
>  installed the pump at 180 opposite.  He said he did this by setting up the
> pump normally and setting engine at 180.  He was then going put things back
> together and give it a try.  I had to leave at that point
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Esh]

Thanks Manfred,
He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not see the 
welling up, only spurting.  I will pass along this information to him and we 
sill start again on Monday.  My lack of knowledge as well as his is become 
glaringly apparent.  I will be talking to the owner on Monday about this.  Is 
there a manual or specific instructions about how to time the pump that I need 
to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic.
Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this.
Mike
 
On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote:

> Can't tell from your description.
> 
> 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as the 
> cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke then we 
> go to--
> 
> 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of like 
> going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a great 
> price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that price is 
> first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify anything 
> so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip' not 
> 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very 
> specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close 
> watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the 
> connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of the 
> level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting out of 
> the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor out of 
> time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should start.
> 
> From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I have to 
> say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I have to say 
> that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough to get it right 
> when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a general description is 
> impossible.
> 
> Manfred
> 
> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400
> From: Michael Esh 
> 
> 
> Thanks Manfred.  I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with 
> #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel 
> spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees.  Does this mean it is in 
> the proper range?   The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly  installed 
> the pump at 180 opposite.  He said he did this by setting up the pump 
> normally and setting engine at 180.  He was then going put things back 
> together and give it a try.  I had to leave at that point
> Mike
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[MG]

Can't tell from your description.

1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you 
watched as the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the 
compression stroke then we go to--


2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's 
kind of like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he 
is giving you a great price. Do you then just sign the papers or 
do you find out what that price is first? How far did he turn the 
engine? Roll over does not quantify anything so I can't tell from 
that when the fuel actually started to 'drip' not 'spurt' two 
totally different things. The start of injection is a very 
specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a 
very close watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel 
in the top of the connection on the fuel pump. You are looking 
for a very small increase of the level of fuel in that 
connection. By the time you see fuel squirting out of the port 
you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor out 
of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection 
should start.


From what I read and until I get the answers to the above 
questions I have to say It will not work as it will be way out of 
time. Sorry that I have to say that but timing is a very specific 
thing and it's hard enough to get it right when you are right 
there, to tell if it's right from a general description is 
impossible.


Manfred

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400
From: Michael Esh 


Thanks Manfred.  I stopped by the shop today and watched him set 
it up with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over 
and watched the fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 
degrees.  Does this mean it is in the proper range?   The weird 
thing is the mechanic had supposedly  installed the pump at 180 
opposite.  He said he did this by setting up the pump normally 
and setting engine at 180.  He was then going put things back 
together and give it a try.  I had to leave at that point

Mike


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Michael Canfield wrote:

Can you put the original pump back on and make it run just like when you
started out?  That will be the test of the install procedure.



Reminds me of a certain W124. Ran great but had a sticky throttle (internal to 
IP). Had dealer in Kzoo install a used pump, and it didn't make good power any 
more. Had dealer reinstall old pump, sent used pump back to seller. Didn't make 
as much power as I expected and laid down a black smoke screen when I test drove 
it. Made me doubt whether the dealer or the used pump was to blame.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Esh]

Thanks Manfred.  I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with #1 
on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel spurt 
out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees.  Does this mean it is in the proper 
range?   The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly  installed the pump at 
180 opposite.  He said he did this by setting up the pump normally and setting 
engine at 180.  He was then going put things back together and give it a try.  
I had to leave at that point 
Mike



On Jul 26, 2013, at 3:01 PM, MG wrote:

> It is the ONLY way to get it right, now that no one knows where the pump is 
> set. You have to have the valve cover off so you can see if both of the 
> valves for #1 are closed when the drip for #1 happens. Right now it could 
> still be 90 pump deg, or 180 more engine degs out of time.
> 
> Manfred
> 
> 
> 
> Mike Esh Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:25:40 -0700
> 
> No, I am at work. I sent him the following information from people on our
> forum.. with emphasis on the last paragraph.  He agreed to try it.  Manfred,
> will this get the timing close?   He has not called back yet.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Mike I have to take this one question at a time.
> 
> Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve
> cover off the engine?
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[MG]

It is the ONLY way to get it right, now that no one knows where 
the pump is set. You have to have the valve cover off so you can 
see if both of the valves for #1 are closed when the drip for #1 
happens. Right now it could still be 90 pump deg, or 180 more 
engine degs out of time.


Manfred



Mike Esh Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:25:40 -0700

No, I am at work. I sent him the following information from 
people on our
forum.. with emphasis on the last paragraph.  He agreed to try 
it.  Manfred,

will this get the timing close?   He has not called back yet.

Mike



Mike I have to take this one question at a time.

Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve
cover off the engine?


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

No, I am at work. I sent him the following information from people on our 
forum.. with emphasis on the last paragraph.  He agreed to try it.  Manfred, 
will this get the timing close?   He has not called back yet.

Mike



Mike I have to take this one question at a time.

Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve
cover off the engine?

Manfred

Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the
pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be
accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB
tools.
You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over
slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1
exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then
turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank
dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector
line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the
pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over
very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV
union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer
is. That is roughly the start of delivery.
That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery
is.

Good suggestion, Loren.
Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct
timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling
up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation.
Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my
diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may
have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a
stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel
reservoir.

Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected
place, you keep turning the engine over until you
get delivery. While we might expect the
beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may
well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of
time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough
that Kaleb never figured out it was way off.




Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344


On Jul 26, 2013, at 02:08 PM, MG  wrote:


Mike I have to take this one question at a time.

Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve
cover off the engine?

Manfred

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 12:59:19 + (GMT)
From: Mike Esh http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[MG]

Mike I have to take this one question at a time.

Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve 
cover off the engine?


Manfred

Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 12:59:19 + (GMT)
From: Mike Esh I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal 
and we are still having an issue of very low power.  The mechanic 
had a very difficult time getting the pump installed at this 
position. He said it kept moving off several teeth as he placed 
in position.  He ended up setting up the pump normally and 
setting the engine at 180 degrees off.  He then tried to drip 
time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up.   We tried 
drip timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still 
having the same low power and smoke.  It starts and idles very 
well, just no power.  He had set the valve clearance previously 
and will be testing compression today.  I will keep you informed 
as to our progress or lack thereof.
This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to 
help me keep my cost down.  If we cannot figure this out do you 
think I should try a new/rebuilt injector pump?
To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has 
changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing 
them.  So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them. 
All help and suggestions are being passed along.

Thanks for all the help thus far,


Mike





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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[G Mann]

Call Mel at Conestoga Diesel  http://www.conestogadiesel.com/
717-806-5561
Send your pump to him for a bench check to verify if it's in spec or not.
That will give you a solid place to start and answer the burning question
"is the IP any good, or does it have issues that are causing the problem".

I've known Mel from another diesel board since 2007 and he has always been
rock solid straight.

Hope this helps,
Grant.. AZ

On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Mike Esh  wrote:

>
>
> The saga continues.
> I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are
> still having an issue of very low power.  The mechanic had a very difficult
> time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving
> off several teeth as he placed in position.  He ended up setting up the
> pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off.  He then tried to
> drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up.   We tried drip
> timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same
> low power and smoke.  It starts and idles very well, just no power.  He had
> set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today.
>  I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof.
> This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me
> keep my cost down.  If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try
> a new/rebuilt injector pump?
> To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many
> Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them.  So he is indeed,
> inexperienced at troubleshooting them.  All help and suggestions are being
> passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far,
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael E. Esh
> me...@horizonenv.com
> michael...@mac.com
> http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123
> (C) 231.286.2344
>
>
> On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the
 pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be
 accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB
 tools.
 You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over
 slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1
 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then
 turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank
 dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector
 line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the
 pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over
 very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV
 union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer
 is. That is roughly the start of delivery.
 That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery
 is.

>>> Good suggestion, Loren.
>>> Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct
>>> timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling
>>> up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation.
>>> Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my
>>> diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may
>>> have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a
>>> stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel
>>> reservoir.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected
>> place, you keep turning the engine over until you
>> get delivery. While we might expect the
>> beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may
>> well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of
>> time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough
>> that Kaleb never figured out it was way off.
>>
>> 
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

Can you put the original pump back on and make it run just like when you
started out?  That will be the test of the install procedure.

Sounds like it is time to put it back and start from scratch.

Mike
On Jul 26, 2013 11:17 AM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:

> Yes,
> we have tried that with this and one other pump previously.
>
> Michael E. Esh
> me...@horizonenv.com
> michael...@mac.com
> http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123
> (C) 231.286.2344
>
>
> On Jul 26, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Michael Canfield 
> wrote:
>
>  In that case he probably should install the pump the way he knows how to
>> do
>> it. Sounds like he knows how to do it right so the problem is likely
>> elsewhere.
>>
>> Mike
>> On Jul 26, 2013 8:59 AM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:
>>
>>  The saga continues.
>>> I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are
>>> still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very
>>> difficult
>>> time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving
>>> off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the
>>> pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to
>>> drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip
>>> timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same
>>> low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had
>>> set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today.
>>> I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof.
>>> This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me
>>> keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try
>>> a new/rebuilt injector pump?
>>> To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed
>>> many
>>> Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is
>>> indeed,
>>> inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being
>>> passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far,
>>> Mike
>>> Michael E. Esh
>>> me...@horizonenv.com
>>>  michael...@mac.com
>>>  
>>> http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
>>> 
>>> >
>>> (C) 231.286.2344
>>> On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the
>> pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be
>> accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB
>> tools.
>> You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over
>> slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1
>> exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then
>> turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank
>> dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector
>> line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the
>> pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over
>> very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV
>> union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer
>> is. That is roughly the start of delivery.
>> That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery
>> is.
>>
> Good suggestion, Loren.
> Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct
> timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling
> up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation.
> Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my
> diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he
> may
> have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a
> stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the
> fuel
> reservoir.
>
 Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected
 place, you keep turning the engine over until you
 get delivery. While we might expect the
 beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may
 well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of
 time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough
 that Kaleb never figured out it was way off.
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 >

>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>  To search list archives 
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 

Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

Yes,
we have tried that with this and one other pump previously.

Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344


On Jul 26, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Michael Canfield  wrote:


In that case he probably should install the pump the way he knows how to do
it. Sounds like he knows how to do it right so the problem is likely
elsewhere.

Mike
On Jul 26, 2013 8:59 AM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:


The saga continues.
I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are
still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very difficult
time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving
off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the
pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to
drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip
timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same
low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had
set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today.
I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof.
This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me
keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try
a new/rebuilt injector pump?
To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many
Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is indeed,
inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being
passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far,
Mike
Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
 
michael...@mac.com
 
http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123

(C) 231.286.2344
On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the
pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be
accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB
tools.
You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over
slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1
exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then
turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank
dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector
line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the
pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over
very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV
union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer
is. That is roughly the start of delivery.
That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery
is.

Good suggestion, Loren.
Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct
timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling
up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation.
Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my
diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may
have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a
stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel
reservoir.

Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected
place, you keep turning the engine over until you
get delivery. While we might expect the
beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may
well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of
time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough
that Kaleb never figured out it was way off.
http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

In that case he probably should install the pump the way he knows how to do
it.  Sounds like he knows how to do it right so the problem is likely
elsewhere.

Mike
On Jul 26, 2013 8:59 AM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:

>
>
> The saga continues.
> I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are
> still having an issue of very low power.  The mechanic had a very difficult
> time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving
> off several teeth as he placed in position.  He ended up setting up the
> pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off.  He then tried to
> drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up.   We tried drip
> timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same
> low power and smoke.  It starts and idles very well, just no power.  He had
> set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today.
>  I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof.
> This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me
> keep my cost down.  If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try
> a new/rebuilt injector pump?
> To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many
> Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them.  So he is indeed,
> inexperienced at troubleshooting them.  All help and suggestions are being
> passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far,
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael E. Esh
> me...@horizonenv.com
> michael...@mac.com
> http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123
> (C) 231.286.2344
>
>
> On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the
 pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be
 accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB
 tools.
 You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over
 slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1
 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then
 turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank
 dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector
 line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the
 pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over
 very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV
 union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer
 is. That is roughly the start of delivery.
 That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery
 is.

>>> Good suggestion, Loren.
>>> Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct
>>> timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling
>>> up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation.
>>> Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my
>>> diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may
>>> have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a
>>> stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel
>>> reservoir.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected
>> place, you keep turning the engine over until you
>> get delivery. While we might expect the
>> beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may
>> well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of
>> time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough
>> that Kaleb never figured out it was way off.
>>
>> 
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

Bummer.  no obstruction in the intake manifold? 
Is the throttle linkage hooked up correctly? 
84 300D should have the newer throttle linkage, 
not the bellcrank, so that makes it easier. 
Does it run correctly if you run the throttle 
manually under the hood?  Now that it idles well, 
is the turbo management all working correctly? 
Does the turbo spool up as expected?





The saga continues.
I have the new /used pump installed at 180 
degrees from normal and we are still having an 
issue of very low power.  The mechanic had a 
very difficult time getting the pump installed 
at this position. He said it kept moving off 
several teeth as he placed in position.  He 
ended up setting up the pump normally and 
setting the engine at 180 degrees off.  He then 
tried to drip time off the #1 cylinder and the 
fuel did not show up.   We tried drip timing off 
# 5 and that appeared to work but we are still 
having the same low power and smoke.  It starts 
and idles very well, just no power.  He had set 
the valve clearance previously and will be 
testing compression today.  I will keep you 
informed as to our progress or lack thereof.
This is taking so long because he is working in 
his spare time to help me keep my cost down.  If 
we cannot figure this out do you think I should 
try a new/rebuilt injector pump?
To the skeptics who ask me to question his 
experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps 
but has never had any trouble timing them.  So 
he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting 
them.  All help and suggestions are being passed 
along. Thanks for all the help thus far,



Mike







Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344


On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the
pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be
accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB
tools.
You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over
slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1
exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then
turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank
dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector
line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the
pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over
very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV
union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer
is. That is roughly the start of delivery.
That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery
is.

Good suggestion, Loren.
Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct
timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling
up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation.
Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my
diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may
have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a
stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel
reservoir.


Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected
place, you keep turning the engine over until you
get delivery. While we might expect the
beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may
well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of
time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough
that Kaleb never figured out it was way off.


http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

The saga continues.
I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are still 
having an issue of very low power.  The mechanic had a very difficult time 
getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving off several 
teeth as he placed in position.  He ended up setting up the pump normally and 
setting the engine at 180 degrees off.  He then tried to drip time off the #1 
cylinder and the fuel did not show up.   We tried drip timing off # 5 and that 
appeared to work but we are still having the same low power and smoke.  It 
starts and idles very well, just no power.  He had set the valve clearance 
previously and will be testing compression today.  I will keep you informed as 
to our progress or lack thereof.
This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me keep 
my cost down.  If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try a 
new/rebuilt injector pump?
To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them.  So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them.  All help and suggestions are being passed along. 
Thanks for all the help thus far,



Mike







Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344


On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the
pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be
accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB
tools.
You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over
slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1
exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then
turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank
dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector
line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the
pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over
very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV
union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer
is. That is roughly the start of delivery.
That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery
is.

Good suggestion, Loren.
Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct
timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling
up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation.
Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my
diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may
have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a
stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel
reservoir.


Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected
place, you keep turning the engine over until you
get delivery. While we might expect the
beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may
well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of
time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough
that Kaleb never figured out it was way off.


http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Larry T]

Don't know about /black /smoke and loping at idle but I had a MB that 
had white smoke & ran slowly or failed to move forward  - it would not 
go faster than ~10mph - then all of a sudden it would spring to life. -  
it turned out to be carbon buildup  in the head..


Don't know if yours is similar to mine   regular long distance 
driving fixed it


LarryT

On 7/8/2013 11:59 PM, Dieselhead wrote:
I have done many other things on my cars and I always enjoy the 
learning that takes place. I have little knowledge or experience with 
the injection pump and no one close by that could help me get through 
it the first time. I am learning more as we go from my mechanic and 
this forum. I will probably try it myself if I get the opportunity 
again.

Thanks,
Mike

Michael E. Esh
231-286-2344


Mike,


You can't learn any sooner.  I learned to work on OM621s out of 
necessity.  If you do a little reading in the engine manual, or even 
old chilton manuals at the welfare bookstore(Library) you can get 
illustrations and instructions on changing the pump and or pump 
timing.  What the books won't tell you is what I told you about an 
easy method to check to see if the timing is in the ballpark.  I 
invented the method because I really did not want to disturb the 
delivery valves for the drip method.  I read and reread the manuals 
and learned what the drip method was really trying to monitor.  I had 
never had an engine apart before but I rebuilt my OM621 with a factory 
short block.  Yes, I put in the pump and took it out because it was on 
the wrong tooth of the drive coupling until I got it right.  Do it 
yourself.  You care more about your car than anyone else does.  Take 
the time to learn and to do it right.


One other thing I learned about OM621 IPs is that the cams are under 
pressure (delivery stroke) if you try to put the pump in at the timing 
mark (27ºBTDC in this case) or even at TDC.There are 4 lobes on 
the cam (5 for OM617) If you get the ip cam to where it is at rest 
before the #1 lobe, and set the crank to about 90º BTDC for #1 
compression, and stick the pump in, you are coordinating the pump cam 
location to the crank location.The factory method requires a 
special tool to hold the IP cam under tension to align with the timing 
mark.  Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing 
(get the pump  in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to 
be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB 
tools.


You can do the same.  Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over 
slowly.  watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 
exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down.  Then 
turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank 
dampener. stop at 45º BTDC.  Then clean and remove the #1 injector 
line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the 
pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over 
very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up  in the DV 
union. Stop!  Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer 
is.  That is roughly the start of delivery.


That is all you need to do.  Check where the beginning of fuel 
delivery is.


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:


 Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the
 pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be
 accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB
 tools.

 You can do the same.  Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over
 slowly.  watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1
 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down.  Then
 turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank
 dampener. stop at 45º BTDC.  Then clean and remove the #1 injector
 line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the
 pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over
 very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV
 union. Stop!  Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer
 is.  That is roughly the start of delivery.

 That is all you need to do.  Check where the beginning of fuel delivery
 is.


Good suggestion, Loren.

Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct
timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling
up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation.

Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my
diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may
have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a
stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel
reservoir.


Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected 
place, you keep turning the engine over until you 
get delivery.  While we might expect the 
beginning of delivery to be 360º out,  it may 
well be anywhere.  the kleb  SDL was way out of 
time, but actually ran pretty well.  Well enough 
that Kaleb never figured out it was way off.



As one who has removed an OM617 injection pump to be bench tested and
then replaced it, I know of the many questions one has before doing the
process. Once you get it done, it's not so mysterious.

Craig


Yassir!  not so mysterious once you do it.  The 
mystery is demystifying the special tools 
required.


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the
> pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be
> accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB
> tools.
> 
> You can do the same.  Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over
> slowly.  watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 
> exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down.  Then
> turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank 
> dampener. stop at 45º BTDC.  Then clean and remove the #1 injector
> line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the
> pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over
> very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV
> union. Stop!  Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer
> is.  That is roughly the start of delivery.
> 
> That is all you need to do.  Check where the beginning of fuel delivery
> is.

Good suggestion, Loren.

Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct
timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling
up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation.

Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my
diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may
have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a
stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel
reservoir.

As one who has removed an OM617 injection pump to be bench tested and
then replaced it, I know of the many questions one has before doing the
process. Once you get it done, it's not so mysterious.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

I have done many other things on my cars and I 
always enjoy the learning that takes place. I 
have little knowledge or experience with the 
injection pump and no one close by that could 
help me get through it the first time. I am 
learning more as we go from my mechanic and this 
forum. I will probably try it myself if I get 
the opportunity again.

Thanks,
Mike

Michael E. Esh
231-286-2344


Mike,


You can't learn any sooner.  I learned to work on 
OM621s out of necessity.  If you do a little 
reading in the engine manual, or even old chilton 
manuals at the welfare bookstore(Library) you can 
get illustrations and instructions on changing 
the pump and or pump timing.  What the books 
won't tell you is what I told you about an easy 
method to check to see if the timing is in the 
ballpark.  I invented the method because I really 
did not want to disturb the delivery valves for 
the drip method.  I read and reread the manuals 
and learned what the drip method was really 
trying to monitor.  I had never had an engine 
apart before but I rebuilt my OM621 with a 
factory short block.  Yes, I put in the pump and 
took it out because it was on the wrong tooth of 
the drive coupling until I got it right.  Do it 
yourself.  You care more about your car than 
anyone else does.  Take the time to learn and to 
do it right.


One other thing I learned about OM621 IPs is that 
the cams are under pressure (delivery stroke) if 
you try to put the pump in at the timing mark 
(27ºBTDC in this case) or even at TDC.There 
are 4 lobes on the cam (5 for OM617) If you get 
the ip cam to where it is at rest before the #1 
lobe, and set the crank to about 90º BTDC for #1 
compression, and stick the pump in, you are 
coordinating the pump cam location to the crank 
location.The factory method requires a 
special tool to hold the IP cam under tension to 
align with the timing mark.  Without the tool, I 
had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the 
pump  in time) so I read a lot and thought about 
what has to be accomplished, then developed ways 
to do it without the expensive MB tools.


You can do the same.  Take off the valve cover, 
turn the engine over slowly.  watch the first 
camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 
exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake 
valve goes down.  Then turn the engine over until 
you can see the degree marks on the crank 
dampener. stop at 45º BTDC.  Then clean and 
remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out 
of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump 
where the injector line fastens to the pump. 
turn the engine over very slowly until you see 
the fuel just start to move up  in the DV union. 
Stop!  Read the degrees on the crank dampener 
where the pointer is.  That is roughly the start 
of delivery.


That is all you need to do.  Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

"One guy rebent the injection lines to match the firing order.  1 4 3 2 in
place of just replacing the lines.  (1 2 3 4)  That was about max
stupidity, but to a gas engine guy, the lines sort of resembled spark plug
wires"

That is what is crazy.  Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my
phone someday.


Mike

yep,  especially since it was working before he "fixed" it.  One of 
the ultra rare zundfogle engines


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

HTC Evo 4g lte.  Android OS.  Not the phones fault, I just don't pay
attention and hit buttons too fast.

Mike
On Jul 8, 2013 2:16 PM, "Rick Knoble"  wrote:

> On Jul 8, 2013, at 1:04 PM, "Michael Canfield" 
> wrote:
>
> >  Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my
> > phone someday.
>
>
> What phone? iPhone is dead simple. My Android tablet, not so much, to the
> point I don't even read email on it...
>
> Rick
> Sent from my iPhone
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Rick Knoble]

On Jul 8, 2013, at 1:04 PM, "Michael Canfield"  wrote:

>  Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my
> phone someday.


What phone? iPhone is dead simple. My Android tablet, not so much, to the point 
I don't even read email on it...

Rick
Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 14:04:09 -0400 Michael Canfield 
wrote:

> "One guy rebent the injection lines to match the firing order.  1 4 3 2
> in place of just replacing the lines.  (1 2 3 4)  That was about max
> stupidity, but to a gas engine guy, the lines sort of resembled spark
> plug wires"
> 
> That is what is crazy. 

Yes, that IS crazy!


> Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my phone someday.

I wish you success.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

"One guy rebent the injection lines to match the firing order.  1 4 3 2 in
place of just replacing the lines.  (1 2 3 4)  That was about max
stupidity, but to a gas engine guy, the lines sort of resembled spark plug
wires"

That is what is crazy.  Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my
phone someday.

Mike
On Jul 8, 2013 2:00 PM, "Craig"  wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 06:25:09 -0400 Michael Canfield 
> wrote:
>
> > Wow!  That is crazy!
> >
> > Mike
>
> What is crazy? You didn't quote anything from the previous post.
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 06:25:09 -0400 Michael Canfield 
wrote:

> Wow!  That is crazy!
> 
> Mike

What is crazy? You didn't quote anything from the previous post.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

Wow!  That is crazy!

Mike
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

Dieselhead wrote:
II have engines sit for years and then fire right up.  I don't 
think purge will help this problem.


So, you think if the pumps were removed from good running cars, the 
problem isn't in storage, so we're either looking at two different 
sellers sticking him/me with bad pumps or mechanic failure?


The first one Mike had put in was probably wrapped in plastic in a 
basement for 8-10 years.


Mitch.


I still think both pumps were put in out of time by the same guy.

there are tricks to getting the pump on the right tooth of the drive 
spline.  not everyone checks carefully.



One guy rebent the injection lines to match the firing order.  1 4 3 
2 in place of just replacing the lines.  (1 2 3 4)  That was about 
max stupidity, but to a gas engine guy, the lines sort of resembled 
spark plug wires


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Michael Canfield wrote:


Did either pump have protective caps to cover the ports installed before
storage?


I don't know about replacement pump #2.
The one he got from me was wrapped like a mummy in commercial duty Saran Wrap 
type stuff, padded with shredded paper and taped up in a cardboard box for 
shipping. I bought it on eBay and didn't unwrap it until Mike needed it.
It probably saw little oxygen beyond what was wrapped in plastic with it, but 
that could be more than enough to react with anything in the delivery valves.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

I agree on this IF the pump is not sitting on a shelf somewhere.  A
complete engine with a closed fuel system is a whole different story than a
pump with old fuel and air in it sitting in storage.

Did either pump have protective caps to cover the ports installed before
storage?

I do, however, tend to agree that the chances are that the installer isn't
getting it right.

Mike
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Dieselhead wrote:
II have engines sit for years and then fire right up.  I don't think 
purge will help this problem.


So, you think if the pumps were removed from good running cars, the problem 
isn't in storage, so we're either looking at two different sellers sticking 
him/me with bad pumps or mechanic failure?


The first one Mike had put in was probably wrapped in plastic in a basement for 
8-10 years.



Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

II have engines sit for years and then fire right up.  I don't think 
purge will help this problem.




Mike Esh wrote:

I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway.


Have you tried to clean the pumps?
They may have gotten gummy being stored with diesel fuel instead of 
calibrating oil. You could disconnect the fuel and return lines, put 
them in a can of purge, and run on 100% diesel purge until the can 
is gone, or if you're taking it out on the road, dump a bottle or 
two of Techron in the fuel tank.


Mitch.

_


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Scott Ritchey  wrote:

>
>   The electrical technology is
> stone-age, but my 30+ year-old SD provides almost all of the features of
> the
> latest cars.
>

My 27-year-old W124 provides features that I've seen on very few new cars,
like the puddle lights, remote rear-seat headrests, and the mini sunshade
that flips down to fill the gap above the inside rear-view mirror.  And why
doesn't every manufacturer now use the seat-shaped power seat controls on
the door?  I've only seen them on M-Bs and, of all cars, Hyundais--everyone
else still puts them down low on the side of the seat base where you have
to operate them by feel, an ergonomic disaster.

Alex
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Scott Ritchey]

One of the wonderful things (IMO) about 123 and 126 MBZ cars is how they can
be maintained by an amateur mechanic.  Probably true of 124s too but I never
owned one.  In the end, rust, parts availability, and old age (of the
mechanic) are the limiting factors.  One of these days, good used 617
engines will be a thing of the past.  The electrical technology is
stone-age, but my 30+ year-old SD provides almost all of the features of the
latest cars.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 3:17 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

That's why were all here listening and chiming in occasionally.  'Always 
enjoy learning, thank you.   ;<)

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Canfield" 
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.


Hey Mike,
  Sounds like you are learning a valuable lesson that all of us that don't
know should.With a 30 year old German car you are much better off
just learning to do the job yourself.  Not trying to rub it in or anything
like that.  Just hoping other lurkers may learn from your/our experiences
as a group.

Thanks for posting,




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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Mike Esh wrote:
I have done many other things on my cars and I always enjoy the learning that takes place. I have little knowledge or experience with the injection pump and no one close by that could help me get through it the first time. I am learning more as we go from my mechanic and this forum. I will probably try it myself if I get the opportunity again. 
Thanks,

Mike


Ever work on a coil and distributor ignition system?
It's like replacing a distributor, except it weighs 30lb and cleanliness is 
really, really important.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

I have done many other things on my cars and I always enjoy the learning that 
takes place. I have little knowledge or experience with the injection pump and 
no one close by that could help me get through it the first time. I am learning 
more as we go from my mechanic and this forum. I will probably try it myself if 
I get the opportunity again. 
Thanks,
Mike

Michael E. Esh
231-286-2344


On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:16 PM, WILTON  wrote:

> That's why were all here listening and chiming in occasionally.  'Always 
> enjoy learning, thank you.   ;<)
> 
> Wilton
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Michael Canfield" 
> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 12:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
> 
> 
> Hey Mike,
> Sounds like you are learning a valuable lesson that all of us that don't
> know should.With a 30 year old German car you are much better off
> just learning to do the job yourself.  Not trying to rub it in or anything
> like that.  Just hoping other lurkers may learn from your/our experiences
> as a group.
> 
> Thanks for posting,
> 
> Mike
> On Jul 1, 2013 11:29 PM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:
> 
>> Update - I changed the injectors and there was no change.
>> Installed new/used/unmolested ALDA, it actually runs a little worse.
>> I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. It started very hard and
>> would not not stay running without pushing the accelerator to the floor
>> until it started to gain rpm's. Once on the road it continued to smoke and
>> top speed was 60 mph with very low power.
>> Tomorrow I will pop the valve cover and  check the timing using the
>> "non-drip" method.
>> 
>> Michael E. Esh
>> 231-286-2344
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >> Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and
>> >> persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the >> installer 
>> >> -
>> >> doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is
>> >> possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with >> 
>> >> alternators
>> >> from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble.
>> I
>> >> like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube!
>> >>
>> >> THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not "go bad" just when you changed the
>> IP. It
>> >> about has to be IP timing.
>> >
>> > Agreed   Listen to OK Don.
>> >
>> > You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing.  Just
>> take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line.  turn the engine over
>> slowly  (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.)
>> and watch the cam lopes on #1.  Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and
>> #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake
>> valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part
>> of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP.  You can blow this out
>> with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel.  then turn the engine
>> vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of
>> the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery.  Now read the cranshaft
>> damper degree wheel at the pointer.  It should be the setting for start of
>> delivery or a couple of degrees late.  If you don't get fuel, and you
>> continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is
>> delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of
>> time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft.
>> >
>> > While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell
>> you if  you are in the ballpark.  I repeat it several times, because each
>> time I can get closer to the actual start of injection.  I used this method
>> for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip
>> tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in
>> the IP  when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book.
>> >
>> > If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the
>> symptoms you describe.  These engines are pretty forgiving.  If timing is
>> the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms.
>> >
>> > THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy
>> successfully chan

Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[WILTON]

That's why were all here listening and chiming in occasionally.  'Always 
enjoy learning, thank you.   ;<)


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Canfield" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.


Hey Mike,
 Sounds like you are learning a valuable lesson that all of us that don't
know should.With a 30 year old German car you are much better off
just learning to do the job yourself.  Not trying to rub it in or anything
like that.  Just hoping other lurkers may learn from your/our experiences
as a group.

Thanks for posting,

Mike
On Jul 1, 2013 11:29 PM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:


Update - I changed the injectors and there was no change.
Installed new/used/unmolested ALDA, it actually runs a little worse.
I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. It started very hard and
would not not stay running without pushing the accelerator to the floor
until it started to gain rpm's. Once on the road it continued to smoke and
top speed was 60 mph with very low power.
Tomorrow I will pop the valve cover and  check the timing using the
"non-drip" method.

Michael E. Esh
231-286-2344


On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and
>> persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the 
>> installer -

>> doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is
>> possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with 
>> alternators

>> from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble.
I
>> like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube!
>>
>> THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not "go bad" just when you changed the
IP. It
>> about has to be IP timing.
>
> Agreed   Listen to OK Don.
>
> You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing.  Just
take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line.  turn the engine over
slowly  (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.)
and watch the cam lopes on #1.  Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and
#1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake
valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part
of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP.  You can blow this out
with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel.  then turn the engine
vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of
the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery.  Now read the cranshaft
damper degree wheel at the pointer.  It should be the setting for start of
delivery or a couple of degrees late.  If you don't get fuel, and you
continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is
delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of
time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft.
>
> While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell
you if  you are in the ballpark.  I repeat it several times, because each
time I can get closer to the actual start of injection.  I used this 
method

for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip
tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in
the IP  when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book.
>
> If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the
symptoms you describe.  These engines are pretty forgiving.  If timing is
the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms.
>
> THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy
successfully changed IPs.  It is a relevant question even if it makes you
uncomfortable.
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

The Diesel-Purge treatment should be the first thing you do after getting a
used pump installed and running.  No way to adjust and get it running right
if it is sticky and dirty inside.

Mike
On Jul 2, 2013 6:20 AM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:

> Mike Esh wrote:
>
>> I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway.
>>
>
> Have you tried to clean the pumps?
> They may have gotten gummy being stored with diesel fuel instead of
> calibrating oil. You could disconnect the fuel and return lines, put them
> in a can of purge, and run on 100% diesel purge until the can is gone, or
> if you're taking it out on the road, dump a bottle or two of Techron in the
> fuel tank.
>
> Mitch.
>
> __**_
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> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

I will try that today. 

Michael E. Esh
231-286-2344


On Jul 2, 2013, at 6:19 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Mike Esh wrote:
>> I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway.
> 
> Have you tried to clean the pumps?
> They may have gotten gummy being stored with diesel fuel instead of 
> calibrating oil. You could disconnect the fuel and return lines, put them in 
> a can of purge, and run on 100% diesel purge until the can is gone, or if 
> you're taking it out on the road, dump a bottle or two of Techron in the fuel 
> tank.
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Mike Esh wrote:
I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. 


Have you tried to clean the pumps?
They may have gotten gummy being stored with diesel fuel instead of calibrating 
oil. You could disconnect the fuel and return lines, put them in a can of purge, 
and run on 100% diesel purge until the can is gone, or if you're taking it out 
on the road, dump a bottle or two of Techron in the fuel tank.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

Hey Mike,
  Sounds like you are learning a valuable lesson that all of us that don't
know should.With a 30 year old German car you are much better off
just learning to do the job yourself.  Not trying to rub it in or anything
like that.  Just hoping other lurkers may learn from your/our experiences
as a group.

Thanks for posting,

Mike
On Jul 1, 2013 11:29 PM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:

> Update - I changed the injectors and there was no change.
> Installed new/used/unmolested ALDA, it actually runs a little worse.
> I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. It started very hard and
> would not not stay running without pushing the accelerator to the floor
> until it started to gain rpm's. Once on the road it continued to smoke and
> top speed was 60 mph with very low power.
> Tomorrow I will pop the valve cover and  check the timing using the
> "non-drip" method.
>
> Michael E. Esh
> 231-286-2344
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and
> >> persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer -
> >> doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is
> >> possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators
> >> from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble.
> I
> >> like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube!
> >>
> >> THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not "go bad" just when you changed the
> IP. It
> >> about has to be IP timing.
> >
> > Agreed   Listen to OK Don.
> >
> > You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing.  Just
> take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line.  turn the engine over
> slowly  (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.)
> and watch the cam lopes on #1.  Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and
> #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake
> valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part
> of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP.  You can blow this out
> with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel.  then turn the engine
> vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of
> the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery.  Now read the cranshaft
> damper degree wheel at the pointer.  It should be the setting for start of
> delivery or a couple of degrees late.  If you don't get fuel, and you
> continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is
> delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of
> time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft.
> >
> > While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell
> you if  you are in the ballpark.  I repeat it several times, because each
> time I can get closer to the actual start of injection.  I used this method
> for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip
> tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in
> the IP  when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book.
> >
> > If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the
> symptoms you describe.  These engines are pretty forgiving.  If timing is
> the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms.
> >
> > THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy
> successfully changed IPs.  It is a relevant question even if it makes you
> uncomfortable.
> >
> > ___
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

Update - I changed the injectors and there was no change. 
Installed new/used/unmolested ALDA, it actually runs a little worse. 
I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. It started very hard and would 
not not stay running without pushing the accelerator to the floor until it 
started to gain rpm's. Once on the road it continued to smoke and top speed was 
60 mph with very low power. 
Tomorrow I will pop the valve cover and  check the timing using the "non-drip" 
method. 

Michael E. Esh
231-286-2344


On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and
>> persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer -
>> doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is
>> possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators
>> from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I
>> like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube!
>> 
>> THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not "go bad" just when you changed the IP. It
>> about has to be IP timing.
> 
> Agreed   Listen to OK Don.
> 
> You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing.  Just take 
> off the valve cover and the #1 injection line.  turn the engine over slowly  
> (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.) and watch 
> the cam lopes on #1.  Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and #1 intake is 
> the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and 
> then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part of the top of the 
> DV union on the top of the IP.  You can blow this out with a soda straw, or 
> soak it up with a paper towel.  then turn the engine vey slowly until 
> you see fuel start to rise in the small part of the DV union. This IS the 
> beginning of delivery.  Now read the cranshaft damper degree wheel at the 
> pointer.  It should be the setting for start of delivery or a couple of 
> degrees late.  If you don't get fuel, and you continue to turn the engine 
> over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered about the time the 
> exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out 
> of time on the IP shaft.
> 
> While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you if 
>  you are in the ballpark.  I repeat it several times, because each time I can 
> get closer to the actual start of injection.  I used this method for timing 
> OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube timing 
> without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP  when you 
> remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book.
> 
> If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms you 
> describe.  These engines are pretty forgiving.  If timing is the issue, it 
> was to be WAY out to get those symptoms.
> 
> THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy 
> successfully changed IPs.  It is a relevant question even if it makes you 
> uncomfortable.
> 
> ___
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> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Esh]

I will try your method tomorrow to see how close the timing is.  Then I will 
work with mechanic directly to get this car back on the road.  I will also ask 
about  experience with these diesel pumps.

Mike

On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead wrote:

>> Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and
>> persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer -
>> doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is
>> possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators
>> from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I
>> like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube!
>> 
>> THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not "go bad" just when you changed the IP. It
>> about has to be IP timing.
> 
> Agreed   Listen to OK Don.
> 
> You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing.  Just take 
> off the valve cover and the #1 injection line.  turn the engine over slowly  
> (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.) and watch 
> the cam lopes on #1.  Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and #1 intake is 
> the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and 
> then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part of the top of the 
> DV union on the top of the IP.  You can blow this out with a soda straw, or 
> soak it up with a paper towel.  then turn the engine vey slowly until 
> you see fuel start to rise in the small part of the DV union. This IS the 
> beginning of delivery.  Now read the cranshaft damper degree wheel at the 
> pointer.  It should be the setting for start of delivery or a couple of 
> degrees late.  If you don't get fuel, and you continue to turn the engine 
> over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered about the time the 
> exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out 
> of time on the IP shaft.
> 
> While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you if 
>  you are in the ballpark.  I repeat it several times, because each time I can 
> get closer to the actual start of injection.  I used this method for timing 
> OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube timing 
> without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP  when you 
> remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book.
> 
> If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms you 
> describe.  These engines are pretty forgiving.  If timing is the issue, it 
> was to be WAY out to get those symptoms.
> 
> THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy 
> successfully changed IPs.  It is a relevant question even if it makes you 
> uncomfortable.
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

Nice.  I will store that info away in the back of my brain for future use.

Does sound odd that 3 pumps are not working.  Very curious to know what
would happen if original pump was put back on.

Seeing there is so much trouble I would not have a problem at all asking
how many of these jobs he has successfully completed.  He should not have a
problem with answering honestly as he should understand your doubts.

Mike
On Jul 1, 2013 12:05 PM, "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and
>> persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer -
>> doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is
>> possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators
>> from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I
>> like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube!
>>
>> THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not "go bad" just when you changed the IP.
>> It
>> about has to be IP timing.
>>
>
> Agreed   Listen to OK Don.
>
> You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing.  Just
> take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line.  turn the engine over
> slowly  (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.)
> and watch the cam lopes on #1.  Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and
> #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake
> valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part
> of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP.  You can blow this out
> with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel.  then turn the engine
> vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of
> the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery.  Now read the cranshaft
> damper degree wheel at the pointer.  It should be the setting for start of
> delivery or a couple of degrees late.  If you don't get fuel, and you
> continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is
> delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of
> time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft.
>
> While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you
> if  you are in the ballpark.  I repeat it several times, because each time
> I can get closer to the actual start of injection.  I used this method for
> timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube
> timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP
>  when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book.
>
> If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms
> you describe.  These engines are pretty forgiving.  If timing is the issue,
> it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms.
>
> THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy
> successfully changed IPs.  It is a relevant question even if it makes you
> uncomfortable.
>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Dieselhead]

Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and
persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer -
doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is
possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators
from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I
like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube!

THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not "go bad" just when you changed the IP. It
about has to be IP timing.


Agreed   Listen to OK Don.

You don't have to go through the brain damage of 
drip tube timing.  Just take off the valve cover 
and the #1 injection line.  turn the engine over 
slowly  (in the operating direction, CW facing 
the front of the engine.) and watch the cam lopes 
on #1.  Exhaust is at the front of the engine, 
and #1 intake is the second lobe.After the 
intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and then 
lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec 
part of the top of the DV union on the top of the 
IP.  You can blow this out with a soda straw, or 
soak it up with a paper towel.  then turn the 
engine vey slowly until you see fuel 
start to rise in the small part of the DV union. 
This IS the beginning of delivery.  Now read the 
cranshaft damper degree wheel at the pointer.  It 
should be the setting for start of delivery or a 
couple of degrees late.  If you don't get fuel, 
and you continue to turn the engine over until 
the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered 
about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP 
is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out of 
time on the IP shaft.


While this method is not 100% accurate for timing 
the IP, it WILL tell you if  you are in the 
ballpark.  I repeat it several times, because 
each time I can get closer to the actual start of 
injection.  I used this method for timing OM 621s 
for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of 
drip tube timing without all the hassle, or the 
danger of introducing dirt in the IP  when you 
remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the 
book.


If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, 
you won't get the symptoms you describe.  These 
engines are pretty forgiving.  If timing is the 
issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms.


THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many 
times has this guy successfully changed IPs.  It 
is a relevant question even if it makes you 
uncomfortable.


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Mitch Haley wrote:
Has the crank damper slipped, leaving no relationship between the timing 
marks and the actual crank position?


Any chance the timing chain skipped some teeth when the IP was out of 
the car?


And thirdly, does the engine now stumble and smoke when the original IP is put 
back in? If so, I'd worry more about the installation than the pump.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Has the crank damper slipped, leaving no relationship between the timing marks 
and the actual crank position?


Any chance the timing chain skipped some teeth when the IP was out of the car?

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Brian Toscano]

If the ALDA was not shimmed properly I suppose there could be too much
fuel?  But timing would also be suspect.

On Saturday, June 29, 2013, OK Don wrote:

> Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and
> persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer -
> doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is
> possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators
> from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I
> like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube!
>
> THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not "go bad" just when you changed the IP. It
> about has to be IP timing.
>
> On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Michael Esh 
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Peter & Others,
> > Thank you all for the information and ideas.
> > I changed out the injectors last night and it made no difference at all.
> >  I did adjust the alda all the way closed and the car would not idle or
> > achieve and rpm 2500 and was not drivable.  When I moved it back out
> (ccw)
> > it would run and it returned to the normal terrible running status we
> have
> > been battling since the new used injection pump was in installed.  I was
> > then called to dinner.  I plan on changing out the alda with one that is
> > unmolested (thanks Mitch) on Sunday.
> > Is there a good write up on how to  check to see where I stand on this
> > issue.  I have never adjusted the timing and do not intend to try to
> change
> > it.  I plan on taking it back into the mechanic on Monday and trying a
> few
> > adjustments.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Peter Frederick wrote:
> >
> >
> > > You must use the drip tube method to check this, and be very careful to
> > have the injection occur on the compression, not exhaust stroke.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> OK Don
> 2013 F150, 19 mpg
> 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 45 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[OK Don]

Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and
persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer -
doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is
possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators
from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I
like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube!

THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not "go bad" just when you changed the IP. It
about has to be IP timing.

On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Michael Esh  wrote:

> Peter & Others,
> Thank you all for the information and ideas.
> I changed out the injectors last night and it made no difference at all.
>  I did adjust the alda all the way closed and the car would not idle or
> achieve and rpm 2500 and was not drivable.  When I moved it back out (ccw)
> it would run and it returned to the normal terrible running status we have
> been battling since the new used injection pump was in installed.  I was
> then called to dinner.  I plan on changing out the alda with one that is
> unmolested (thanks Mitch) on Sunday.
> Is there a good write up on how to  check to see where I stand on this
> issue.  I have never adjusted the timing and do not intend to try to change
> it.  I plan on taking it back into the mechanic on Monday and trying a few
> adjustments.
>
> Thanks
> Mike
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Peter Frederick wrote:
>
>
> > You must use the drip tube method to check this, and be very careful to
> have the injection occur on the compression, not exhaust stroke.
> >
>



-- 
OK Don
2013 F150, 19 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 45 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Michael Canfield wrote:


I would seriously do a Diesel-Purge treatment before adjusting anything.  I
would think that both pumps could be gummed up after setting for a couple
years.  


Purge was mentioned when he was having trouble with my IP, but I never heard if 
it was used.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Canfield]

Mike,
  Sounds like the ALDA is doing it's job.

What timing method is the mechanic using?

I would seriously do a Diesel-Purge treatment before adjusting anything.  I
would think that both pumps could be gummed up after setting for a couple
years.  Are you 100% sure you don't have a bad rubber fuel line sucking in
air somewhere?  Air can make all sorts of wierd stuff happen.

I thought I had a bad injector pump once...poured water over it and it
ran better.  Noticed I did not see fuel movement in the filter nor any
pulses in the cigar tube.  Changed out the lift pump and it was way
better.  Was back to acting up in a few days but water did not seem to have
any effect any more.  Noticed a couple air bubbles in the filter so got to
checking lines.  The rubber was cracked inside, lengthwise, so it was
letting in a bit of air.  Fixed that with new line and all better.   Een
good so far.

Mike
On Jun 29, 2013 9:02 AM, "Michael Esh"  wrote:

> Peter & Others,
> Thank you all for the information and ideas.
> I changed out the injectors last night and it made no difference at all.
>  I did adjust the alda all the way closed and the car would not idle or
> achieve and rpm 2500 and was not drivable.  When I moved it back out (ccw)
> it would run and it returned to the normal terrible running status we have
> been battling since the new used injection pump was in installed.  I was
> then called to dinner.  I plan on changing out the alda with one that is
> unmolested (thanks Mitch) on Sunday.
> Is there a good write up on how to  check to see where I stand on this
> issue.  I have never adjusted the timing and do not intend to try to change
> it.  I plan on taking it back into the mechanic on Monday and trying a few
> adjustments.
>
> Thanks
> Mike
>  p.s. I fried the alternator in my 78 MGB yesterday when I jumped it after
> leaving the lights on.  I inadvertently hooked  up cables up backwards and
> shorted it out.  (Yes, I know better)  I am not having much luck with my
> cars lately.
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Peter Frederick wrote:
>
> > This was discussed recently.
> >
> > There are some injection pumps out there that are marked for timing
> INCORRECTLY with the result that if you use the normal procedure, the pump
> will be 180 degrees out of time, firing the injectors on the top of the
> exhaust stroke instead of the injection stroke.  The engine will not start
> at low temps, will run rough, and smoke like hell with low power.
> >
> > You must use the drip tube method to check this, and be very careful to
> have the injection occur on the compression, not exhaust stroke.
> >
> > If the pump timing is indeed correct by the drip tube method (which
> detects the point at which the pump plunger covers the fill slot in the
> sleeve, start of delivery), you should check the CAMSHAFT timing to make
> sure it's not a tooth (or two) late.
> >
> > You should also verify that you have proper valve clearance, as tight
> valves will give you low compression and hence huge smoke and no power.
> >
> > If the car has EGR. disconnect the vacuum line to the EGR valve and make
> sure it closes.  A stuck EGR will give terrible smoke (as in you cannot see
> the car behind you on acceleration), very low power, and funny muffled
> knocking, but no other effects.  Typically once you have some speed on the
> engine power will come back up under light load.
> >
> > On a newly installed IP, my guess would be something wrong with the
> timing unless the car was also running poorly before you replaced the IP.
> >
> > If it's been run any significant time on pure veggie oil, you need to
> check the compression and the condition of the pre-chambers too -- veg oil
> is notorious for coking up the entire fuel system along with very serious
> varnish formation in the IP.  Plugged prechambers will prevent normal
> operation.  That coke may burn out if you get it to run decently on diesel
> fuel, but likely if present will require removal and cleaning of the
> pre-chambers.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > ___
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> >
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Michael Esh]

Peter & Others,
Thank you all for the information and ideas.  
I changed out the injectors last night and it made no difference at all.  I did 
adjust the alda all the way closed and the car would not idle or achieve and 
rpm 2500 and was not drivable.  When I moved it back out (ccw) it would run and 
it returned to the normal terrible running status we have been battling since 
the new used injection pump was in installed.  I was then called to dinner.  I 
plan on changing out the alda with one that is unmolested (thanks Mitch) on 
Sunday.  
Is there a good write up on how to  check to see where I stand on this issue.  
I have never adjusted the timing and do not intend to try to change it.  I plan 
on taking it back into the mechanic on Monday and trying a few adjustments.  

Thanks 
Mike
 p.s. I fried the alternator in my 78 MGB yesterday when I jumped it after 
leaving the lights on.  I inadvertently hooked  up cables up backwards and 
shorted it out.  (Yes, I know better)  I am not having much luck with my cars 
lately.


On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Peter Frederick wrote:

> This was discussed recently.
> 
> There are some injection pumps out there that are marked for timing 
> INCORRECTLY with the result that if you use the normal procedure, the pump 
> will be 180 degrees out of time, firing the injectors on the top of the 
> exhaust stroke instead of the injection stroke.  The engine will not start at 
> low temps, will run rough, and smoke like hell with low power.
> 
> You must use the drip tube method to check this, and be very careful to have 
> the injection occur on the compression, not exhaust stroke.
> 
> If the pump timing is indeed correct by the drip tube method (which detects 
> the point at which the pump plunger covers the fill slot in the sleeve, start 
> of delivery), you should check the CAMSHAFT timing to make sure it's not a 
> tooth (or two) late.
> 
> You should also verify that you have proper valve clearance, as tight valves 
> will give you low compression and hence huge smoke and no power.
> 
> If the car has EGR. disconnect the vacuum line to the EGR valve and make sure 
> it closes.  A stuck EGR will give terrible smoke (as in you cannot see the 
> car behind you on acceleration), very low power, and funny muffled knocking, 
> but no other effects.  Typically once you have some speed on the engine power 
> will come back up under light load.
> 
> On a newly installed IP, my guess would be something wrong with the timing 
> unless the car was also running poorly before you replaced the IP.
> 
> If it's been run any significant time on pure veggie oil, you need to check 
> the compression and the condition of the pre-chambers too -- veg oil is 
> notorious for coking up the entire fuel system along with very serious 
> varnish formation in the IP.  Plugged prechambers will prevent normal 
> operation.  That coke may burn out if you get it to run decently on diesel 
> fuel, but likely if present will require removal and cleaning of the 
> pre-chambers.
> 
> Peter
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Peter Frederick]

This was discussed recently.

There are some injection pumps out there that are marked for timing  
INCORRECTLY with the result that if you use the normal procedure, the  
pump will be 180 degrees out of time, firing the injectors on the top  
of the exhaust stroke instead of the injection stroke.  The engine  
will not start at low temps, will run rough, and smoke like hell with  
low power.


You must use the drip tube method to check this, and be very careful  
to have the injection occur on the compression, not exhaust stroke.


If the pump timing is indeed correct by the drip tube method (which  
detects the point at which the pump plunger covers the fill slot in  
the sleeve, start of delivery), you should check the CAMSHAFT timing  
to make sure it's not a tooth (or two) late.


You should also verify that you have proper valve clearance, as tight  
valves will give you low compression and hence huge smoke and no power.


If the car has EGR. disconnect the vacuum line to the EGR valve and  
make sure it closes.  A stuck EGR will give terrible smoke (as in you  
cannot see the car behind you on acceleration), very low power, and  
funny muffled knocking, but no other effects.  Typically once you have  
some speed on the engine power will come back up under light load.


On a newly installed IP, my guess would be something wrong with the  
timing unless the car was also running poorly before you replaced the  
IP.


If it's been run any significant time on pure veggie oil, you need to  
check the compression and the condition of the pre-chambers too -- veg  
oil is notorious for coking up the entire fuel system along with very  
serious varnish formation in the IP.  Plugged prechambers will prevent  
normal operation.  That coke may burn out if you get it to run  
decently on diesel fuel, but likely if present will require removal  
and cleaning of the pre-chambers.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Scott Ritchey]

Black smoke is unburned fuel, typically because the fuel is not atomized
properly or because too much fuel was injected for the amount of available
air.  Since it runs good with boost, it sounds like the second scenario.

As I recall, the ALDA pushes a rod down into the IP to decrease the amount
of fuel injected.  Assuming too much fuel is being injected, I'd suspect
some problem with the ALDA.  The ALDA is supposed to sense boost pressure
from the intake manifold and then retract the rod to increase the quantity
of fuel injected.

I assume you did verify that the IP is nor 360 degrees out of time.

Bad injectors will produce smoke and lost power and also noise.  But that
doesn't explain good function under boost.  

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mike Esh
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 7:48 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

Thanks for the help Mitch.  I have not changed the Alda yet, I plan on
trying that and different? injectors after work today.   

Michael E. Esh

On Jun 28, 2013, at 07:43 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Other info for those who forgot the history:
> This car did not smoke when the original pump was in it a few weeks ago,
it was
> running fine on WVO when I saw it.
>
> It had a lot of WVO run through it, and had been stalling when hot, would
run
> again if he threw cold water on the IP.
>
> I sold him a 123 IP, probably from a '81 wagon, that had been sitting in a
box
> since I bought it on eBay several years ago. It ran so badly on my IP that
> several people wondered if it was 360 degrees out of time.
>
> Mitch.
>
> ___
>
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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Rich Thomas]

That might suggest that somewhere in the process you got some schmutz in 
an injector or somewhere in the circuit?  Bad spray pattern, incomplete 
combustion?


--R


On 6/28/13 1:51 PM, Mike Esh wrote:
The injectors are not tested however they were rebuilt by Bosch 
Service 2 years ago and worked fine until I changed the injection 
pump.  I plan on putting old ones in tonight after work to see if they 
make a difference.   Both of the injection pumps we installed had sat 
for at least 2 years. 



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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mike Esh]

Hi Grant,
The injectors are not tested however they were rebuilt by Bosch Service 2 years 
ago and worked fine until I changed the injection pump.  I plan on putting old 
ones in tonight after work to see if they make a difference.   Both of the 
injection pumps we installed had sat for at least 2 years.

I will check the breather as well.  I cannot imagine that being blocked but 
stranger things have happened.

Thanks for the suggestion.

By the way, the initial estimate for the installation of one pump was $425.00.  They ended up testing and retesting, pulling that one, installing the second one, testing and testing.  The current bill is 625.00 with the commitment that we will still work on it and try to get it figured out.  
Mike


Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com


On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:41 AM, G Mann  wrote:


What is the tested condition of your injector nozzles? Do they have a
clean cone with find droplet size? or do the break clean at pressure ? Do
they shut off clean when they should?

If you nozzles are dribble and squirt, bad atomization, and drool after
shut off pressure spec it can cause the symptoms you describe.

Worth a look? Perhaps.

Grant...

On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Mike Esh  wrote:

> Yes, I understand it is supposed to control fuel flow at low speed w/out
> boost. I am looking for any solution at this point and will try "almost"
> anything. We have tried adjusting the timing back and forth to get a
> steady idle and power at speed. Nothing is working correctly at this time.
> It is very frustrating. Is over fueling a symptom of a worn pump? I am
> very close to purchasing another injection pump. Does anyone have a newly
> rebuilt or a known good one?
>
> Michael E. Esh
>
> (C) 231.286.2344
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:09 AM, Michael Canfield 
> wrote:
>
> Isn't the ALDA supposed to control fuel at low speed with no boost? Black
>> smoke and no power sounds like too much fuel or not enough air. Is the
>> turbo spooling up? Could be timing advanced too far I guess.
>>
>> Mike
>> On Jun 28, 2013 7:48 AM, "Mike Esh"  wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks for the help Mitch. I have not changed the Alda yet, I plan on
>> > trying that and different injectors after work today.
>> > Michael E. Esh
>> >
>> > On Jun 28, 2013, at 07:43 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:
>> >
>> > Other info for those who forgot the history:
>> >> This car did not smoke when the original pump was in it a few weeks
>> ago,
>> >> it was
>> >> running fine on WVO when I saw it.
>> >>
>> >> It had a lot of WVO run through it, and had been stalling when hot,
>> would
>> >> run
>> >> again if he threw cold water on the IP.
>> >>
>> >> I sold him a 123 IP, probably from a '81 wagon, that had been sitting
>> in
>> >> a box
>> >> since I bought it on eBay several years ago. It ran so badly on my IP
>> that
>> >> several people wondered if it was 360 degrees out of time.
>> >>
>> >> Mitch.
>>


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Mitch Haley]

Craig wrote:


I thought ALDA provided extra fuel corresponding to the amount of boost
present. No boost, no extra fuel -- which is why a plugged hose from the
intake manifold to the ALDA makes the car run as if it had no turbo, like
a naturally aspirated engine.



Unless the hose manages to let the pressure in and then hold it, but I've never 
heard of that actually happening in real life.


Mitch.


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Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.

[Craig]

On Fri, 28 Jun 2013 15:28:34 + (GMT) Mike Esh 
wrote:

> Yes, I understand it is supposed to control fuel flow at low speed
> w/out boost.

I thought ALDA provided extra fuel corresponding to the amount of boost
present. No boost, no extra fuel -- which is why a plugged hose from the
intake manifold to the ALDA makes the car run as if it had no turbo, like
a naturally aspirated engine.


Craig

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