Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[MG via Mercedes]

The bit about air is what I was taught years ago so I wasn't too 
comfortable with what he said. I ended up putting a can of oil 
with 134 and some extra cooling thing. It only added 1 oz of each 
product so it took the edge off the vacuum and from there I went 
with the ES.


Manfred


Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2014 06:47:48 -0400
From: Mitch Haley 

I like this answer on Amazon better, if it's still sealed don't 
mess with it, if
it got air in it pull a vacuum to get rid of the air. Air is not 
a refrigerant,

at the very least it's an impediment to refrigerant flow:

Q: Do you need to suck moisture out from the system? or to suck 
vacuum to check

leak? The description said to "Not pull vacuum"?
A:
Only if you have a leak and your system is empty. Then you will 
need to pull a
vacuum on it after you have repaired the leak. Other wise you can 
put a can of
stop leak in it and then change it back to the normal amount 
needed. Hopes this

answers your question.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

MG via Mercedes wrote:

Mitch, it was a guy who answered the phone that is posted on this website.

http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm


Looks like a salesman, registered to the home of Randy Hill of Alpena, Michigan.

It looks like this is Enviro-Safe Inc:
http://www.es-refrigerants.com/resources/faq/w/id/11/details.asp



I like this answer on Amazon better, if it's still sealed don't mess with it, if 
it got air in it pull a vacuum to get rid of the air. Air is not a refrigerant, 
at the very least it's an impediment to refrigerant flow:


Q: Do you need to suck moisture out from the system? or to suck vacuum to check 
leak? The description said to "Not pull vacuum"?

A:
Only if you have a leak and your system is empty. Then you will need to pull a 
vacuum on it after you have repaired the leak. Other wise you can put a can of 
stop leak in it and then change it back to the normal amount needed. Hopes this 
answers your question.



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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[MG via Mercedes]

Mitch, it was a guy who answered the phone that is posted on this 
website.


http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm

Manfred


Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2014 05:31:32 -0400
From: Mitch Haley If it was ES that told Manfred to fill an AC system with air, 
those idiots need
to go out of business so they can quit telling people idiotic 
stuff (I'm hoping
it was a reseller and not the people you get when you call the 
phone number on

the can)

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

just put it into the system after you let it fill to atmospheric 
pressure with air.


No way.  El stupido, just like leaving it with N2 in it.
Feed into a vacuum, accept no substitutes!

He also told me that it doesn't form acids if there is a bit of 
humidity in there with the air.


Probably, yes.  There is no chlorine/fluorine to peel off.
But a used system may have residue in it that could go acidic
in the presence of moisture.  Keep the drier!

You could also leave the 134 in and just add the Enviro-safe to bring 
it up to the needed output since Enviro-safe mixes with 134 or 12 
without any problems.


Yes, I believe you can 'top-off' with HC refrigerants, if
you wish.


Don't try to add enough to get rid of the bubbles.


The sight glass is nearly useless with anything _except_ pure R12.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:

but laughter is the best medicine!


Found out this morning that Max was right, laughter hurts much worse than 
coughing.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Rich Thomas via Mercedes]

but laughter is the best medicine!

--R


On 10/6/14 7:27 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

Coughing?  No no, laughter is what REALLY hurts recovering from that
surgery.  Been there twice, brother.  First time was full deal, gave me a
nice long zipper scar.  Took a couple three days to feel safely mobile,
then a week of gingerly limping around the house.

Max Dillon,
Charleston SC

On Oct 6, 2014 4:01 PM, "Mitch Haley via Mercedes" 
wrote:

(5 hours post-op and giving up all thoughts of suicide, except when I

cough.

Don't ever cough the same day you have hernia surgery)


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

Curly McLain via Mercedes wrote:
   G Mann:   Frost this morning.  You don't need any AC  Save the 
money.  44 lb of propane/butane could make a nice weinie roast out of 
your bus.


You can't put 44lb of propane/butane in a 44lb R12 system.
More like 15lb, but that's about what some of the less honest folks fill a BBQ 
cylinder to these days.
You can still make a pretty good fuel/air bomb out of 44lb of R12 when mixed 
with aerosol'd mineral oil.


Found something I hadn't heard of before on Amazon yesterday, not ES but sounds 
like the same thing, except they claim it works with synthetic oil.
If it was ES that told Manfred to fill an AC system with air, those idiots need 
to go out of business so they can quit telling people idiotic stuff (I'm hoping 
it was a reseller and not the people you get when you call the phone number on 
the can)
Red-Tek on Amazon is more than twice what I paid for a can of R410a earlier this 
year, but affordable compared to R12.

http://www.amazon.com/RED-TEK-Refrigerant-Cylinder-Equiv/dp/B00DJDYQFA

You'd probably move more BTUs with 30-35lb of R406a than with 15lb of 
hydrocarbons. Looks like Autofrost is no more, the only R406a I found in 25lb 
cans was on alibaba, only $40k for 1140 30lb cans. If the stuff is still legal 
for sale, one could get rich moving a container of those for $150 each.
Yikes, further searching tells me the Chinese are selling R410a as a R12 
substitute and sometimes calling it R406a!!! R410a pressures are through the 
roof, you can't even replace R22 with it.


If I needed 30 lb of R406a, I might be tempted to blend my own if the 
constituent  parts are all readily available.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

David & Kristin Gilmore via Mercedes wrote:

On 10/6/2014 8:17 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
(snip)

 In the interest of full disclosure, my oldest son's 300E 2.6 still has 
R12 in it, and I have a can on the shelf. It could probably stand to be 
topped off, but I don't have a manifold gauge set that will do R12.


I use an Harbor Freight R12 can tapper/hose with R134A gauge set, minus the 
removeable R134A couplers. My two Snap-On R12 manifolds sit in a box somewhere, 
3 of the four gauges having lost their oil-filledness.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

   G Mann:   Frost this morning.  You don't need any AC  Save the 
money.  44 lb of propane/butane could make a nice weinie roast out of 
your bus.


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 06:40:06 -0500 Rick Knoble via Mercedes
 wrote:

> >global cooling which was why the >government took away R-12
> 
> R-12 was taken off the market because it eroded the ozone layer in the
> upper atmosphere. It was lauded as a perfect coolant because it is
> extremely stable. That attribute was it's downfall, because it was so
> stable, it didn’t degrade until it reached the upper atmosphere
> (perhaps stratosphere?) where it's molecules were split into their base
> atoms and the chlorine contained within caused the destruction of the
> ozone. I'd be more than happy to provide footnotes to back these facts
> up, but I just don't feel like looking it up right now. 

Those are the facts as I heard them in graduate school.

However,

  The average molecular weight of our atmosphere is 28.97. [1]

  The molecular weight of hydrochloric acid is 36.46.  [2]

  The molecular weight of chlorine gas 70.90

  The molecular weight of R-12 (CCl2F2) is 120.91.

  The heavier the gas, the more likely it will be closer to the earth.

The folks who had R-12 removed forgot about the antarctic volcano that is
spewing hydrochloric acid as well as the fact that during the antarctic
winter, there is no ionizing radiation from the sun to make ozone.


Craig

1. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/molecular-mass-air-d_679.html

2. From Los Alamos National Laboratory Chemistry Division
   Periodic Table of the Elements

   Hydrogen1.008 g/mol
   Carbon 12.01  g/mol
   Fluorine   19.00  g/mol
   Chlorine   35.45  g/mol

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

You just replied to it.  The links are at the bottom.

And man, is that thing a beast!

I like the money room.  I need to gets me one of those

Dan


On Oct 6, 2014, at 12:46 PM, G Mann via Mercedes  wrote:

> I am advised the post with picture is waiting for moderator approval..
> Please stand by... or not..
> 
> Tyvm..
> 
> Grant...
> 
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 9:24 AM, G Mann  wrote:
> 
>> Correct.. Diesel [of course] 450 HP [new], Allison B500 automatic [new],
>> with braking retarder, air ride suspension with 3 ride height
>> adjustments... diesel fired engine and coach preheat [Webastco] ...3 axle
>> coach.. steerable tag axle. On board TV and sound systems [more than one]
>> .. Huge AC system... 8 ea new 12Rx22.5 tires.. air brakes [new] etc etc
>> etc..
>> 
>> Picture, as discovered.. with dust..where it has been setting for 6 yrs
>> after owners heart attack.  if it will clear this system..
>> 
>> 
>> ​
>> And of course, no project this size would be complete without a picture of
>> the budget planning room. [sarcastic humor content, of course]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Respectfully..
>> 
>> Grant...
>> ​
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> pics of the beast plzz
>>> 
>>> --
>>> On 10/6/14 10:47 AM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
>>> 
 All sarcasm accepted... I've certainly taken some lately for taking on
 this
 project... ;)))
 
 If you truly want to find out who your friends are.. buy a 40ft. Mercedes
 motor coach and ask them to "help you work on it".. hahaha..
 
 Oil thread anyone.. it holds 28 quarts.. Coolant.. 33 gallons ..
 Transmission... 8 gallons.. you get the picture... it's big..
 Grant...
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
>>> has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Correct.. Diesel [of course] 450 HP [new], Allison B500 automatic [new],
with braking retarder, air ride suspension with 3 ride height
adjustments... diesel fired engine and coach preheat [Webastco] ...3 axle
coach.. steerable tag axle. On board TV and sound systems [more than one]
.. Huge AC system... 8 ea new 12Rx22.5 tires.. air brakes [new] etc etc
etc..

Picture, as discovered.. with dust..where it has been setting for 6 yrs
after owners heart attack.  if it will clear this system..


​
And of course, no project this size would be complete without a picture of
the budget planning room. [sarcastic humor content, of course]



Respectfully..

Grant...
​

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> pics of the beast plzz
>
> --
> On 10/6/14 10:47 AM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> All sarcasm accepted... I've certainly taken some lately for taking on
>> this
>> project... ;)))
>>
>> If you truly want to find out who your friends are.. buy a 40ft. Mercedes
>> motor coach and ask them to "help you work on it".. hahaha..
>>
>> Oil thread anyone.. it holds 28 quarts.. Coolant.. 33 gallons ..
>> Transmission... 8 gallons.. you get the picture... it's big..
>> Grant...
>>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[G Mann via Mercedes]

I am advised the post with picture is waiting for moderator approval..
Please stand by... or not..

Tyvm..

Grant...

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 9:24 AM, G Mann  wrote:

> Correct.. Diesel [of course] 450 HP [new], Allison B500 automatic [new],
> with braking retarder, air ride suspension with 3 ride height
> adjustments... diesel fired engine and coach preheat [Webastco] ...3 axle
> coach.. steerable tag axle. On board TV and sound systems [more than one]
> .. Huge AC system... 8 ea new 12Rx22.5 tires.. air brakes [new] etc etc
> etc..
>
> Picture, as discovered.. with dust..where it has been setting for 6 yrs
> after owners heart attack.  if it will clear this system..
>
>
> ​
> And of course, no project this size would be complete without a picture of
> the budget planning room. [sarcastic humor content, of course]
>
>
>
> Respectfully..
>
> Grant...
> ​
>
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> pics of the beast plzz
>>
>> --
>> On 10/6/14 10:47 AM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:
>>
>>> All sarcasm accepted... I've certainly taken some lately for taking on
>>> this
>>> project... ;)))
>>>
>>> If you truly want to find out who your friends are.. buy a 40ft. Mercedes
>>> motor coach and ask them to "help you work on it".. hahaha..
>>>
>>> Oil thread anyone.. it holds 28 quarts.. Coolant.. 33 gallons ..
>>> Transmission... 8 gallons.. you get the picture... it's big..
>>> Grant...
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
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>> individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
>> has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
>>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Hmm.  Good point.  All I would need is a can tap and a hose... I could probably 
find a set for cheap locally or on eBay...

Thanks!

Dan


On Oct 6, 2014, at 7:11 PM, David & Kristin Gilmore via Mercedes 
 wrote:

> On 10/6/2014 8:17 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
> (snip)
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, my oldest son's 300E 2.6 still has R12 in 
> it, and I have a can on the shelf. It could probably stand to be topped off, 
> but I don't have a manifold gauge set that will do R12.
> 
> It is my understanding that one doesn't need a gauge set in this 
> situation.  Aren't there bubbles showing in the sight glass if the system is 
> low?  Adding refrigerant (with the compressor running) until the bubbles go 
> away restores cooling.  Or at least that is the way I always did it.  I 
> think.  It's been a long time.
> 
> I'd go through and tighten all the connections first.
> 
> Dave Gilmore, Cameron WV
> 
> 
>Hunters dream of woods and beasts, judges of cases, and runners of races.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[MG via Mercedes]

I called and talked with the guy about that a couple of weeks 
ago. He said to just put it into the system after you let it fill 
to atmospheric pressure with air. He also told me that it doesn't 
form acids if there is a bit of humidity in there with the air. 
You could also leave the 134 in and just add the Enviro-safe to 
bring it up to the needed output since Enviro-safe mixes with 134 
or 12 without any problems. Don't try to add enough to get rid of 
the bubbles. You will probably need only one more can of the 
Enviro-safe to bring the system up to what it needs. The low side 
should be under 30lbs.


Manfred


Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2014 08:40:02 -0400
From: Meade Dillon 

Last week when I installed the new condenser in The White Whale (R-12
system converted by PO), I charged the system with just one can 
of R-134,
and to my pleasant surprise that was enough pressure for the 
system to work

and blow cool air.  Temps here don't really require AC now, so I'll
probably leave it alone until next summer.  I've got a few cans 
of one of

the hydrocarbon-based refrigerants, need to come up with a plan for
installing that.  Instructions say it should not be installed into a
vacuum, so I need to figure out how this "Enviro Safe" should be 
installed.


Max Dillon,
Charleston SC

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Coughing?  No no, laughter is what REALLY hurts recovering from that
surgery.  Been there twice, brother.  First time was full deal, gave me a
nice long zipper scar.  Took a couple three days to feel safely mobile,
then a week of gingerly limping around the house.

Max Dillon,
Charleston SC

On Oct 6, 2014 4:01 PM, "Mitch Haley via Mercedes" 
wrote:
>
> (5 hours post-op and giving up all thoughts of suicide, except when I
cough.
> Don't ever cough the same day you have hernia surgery)
>
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[David & Kristin Gilmore via Mercedes]

On 10/6/2014 8:17 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
(snip)

 In the interest of full disclosure, my oldest son's 300E 2.6 still has 
R12 in it, and I have a can on the shelf. It could probably stand to be 
topped off, but I don't have a manifold gauge set that will do R12.


 It is my understanding that one doesn't need a gauge set in this 
situation.  Aren't there bubbles showing in the sight glass if the 
system is low?  Adding refrigerant (with the compressor running) until 
the bubbles go away restores cooling.  Or at least that is the way I 
always did it.  I think.  It's been a long time.


 I'd go through and tighten all the connections first.

 Dave Gilmore, Cameron WV


Hunters dream of woods and beasts, judges of cases, and runners of 
races.


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

Current quotes on 42 lbs. of R12 are running in the $3000+ range..


Here I was, thinking it was ridiculous that about ten years ago a refrigerant 
supplier quoted me something like $300 for a 20 or 30lb cylinder of R290, which 
was more than I paid for R134a in the 12oz cans at the time.


You can't get a 30lb of R12 for $500 or less?
Last I knew (several years ago) the price of R12 was dropping due to the fact 
that nobody wanted it any more.


Mitch
(5 hours post-op and giving up all thoughts of suicide, except when I cough.
Don't ever cough the same day you have hernia surgery)

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

G Mann via Mercedes wrote:


Mercedes content:  I just purchased a new Mercedes [to me new] which uses
R12. The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing refill.


42lb???
My HOUSE takes 121 ounces of 410A.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Ok!  Never mind my other email.

Sounds like one should first pressurize the system with dry nitrogen to
test for leaks, bleed that off, then fill with ES.

Max Dillon,
Charleston SC

On Oct 6, 2014 1:41 PM, "Rick Knoble via Mercedes" 
wrote:
>
> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 12:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134
>
> ‎Original Message
> From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes
> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 7:54 AM
> To: Mercedes
> Reply To: Meade Dillon
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134
>
> >Any tips or tricks when adding the >hydrocarbon stuff?  Did you pull a
> >vacuum prior to putting it in, or >top up the system?
>
> No vacuum, or very light vacuum. Dry system. Invert the can. It flashes
off into a gas the instant it enters the system, so there is no chance of
the compressor getting a "slug" of liquid refrigerant.
>
> Rick
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
>
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Original Message  
From: Craig via Mercedes
Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 12:56 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Reply To: Craig
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 12:41:22 -0500 Rick Knoble via Mercedes
 wrote:

>> Any tips or tricks when adding the hydrocarbon stuff?  Did you pull a
>> vacuum prior to putting it in, or top up the system?
> 
> No vacuum, or very light vacuum. Dry system. Invert the can. It flashes
> off into a gas the instant it enters the system, so there is no chance
> of the compressor getting a "slug" of liquid refrigerant. 

>Could one not add (part of) a can >to a system with a hard (well, as >hard
>as you can get on an A/C system) >vacuum with the engine off? That >way when
>starting the engine and the A/C >compressor, it wouldn't be a >vacuum, but
>no air and moisture would have >been introduced into the system.


‎I would assume so. I will ask the guy at Enviro-Safe via email this evening. 

Rick 
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 6 Oct 2014 12:41:22 -0500 Rick Knoble via Mercedes
 wrote:

>> Any tips or tricks when adding the hydrocarbon stuff?  Did you pull a
>> vacuum prior to putting it in, or top up the system?
> 
> No vacuum, or very light vacuum. Dry system. Invert the can. It flashes
> off into a gas the instant it enters the system, so there is no chance
> of the compressor getting a "slug" of liquid refrigerant. 

Could one not add (part of) a can to a system with a hard (well, as hard
as you can get on an A/C system) vacuum with the engine off? That way when
starting the engine and the A/C compressor, it wouldn't be a vacuum, but
no air and moisture would have been introduced into the system.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

‎Original Message  
From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes
Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 7:54 AM
To: Mercedes
Reply To: Meade Dillon
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

>Any tips or tricks when adding the >hydrocarbon stuff?  Did you pull a
>vacuum prior to putting it in, or >top up the system?

No vacuum, or very light vacuum. Dry system. Invert the can. It flashes off 
into a gas the instant it enters the system, so there is no chance of the 
compressor getting a "slug" of liquid refrigerant. 

Rick 
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Rich Thomas via Mercedes]

pics of the beast plzz

--
On 10/6/14 10:47 AM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

All sarcasm accepted... I've certainly taken some lately for taking on this
project... ;)))

If you truly want to find out who your friends are.. buy a 40ft. Mercedes
motor coach and ask them to "help you work on it".. hahaha..

Oil thread anyone.. it holds 28 quarts.. Coolant.. 33 gallons ..
Transmission... 8 gallons.. you get the picture... it's big..
Grant...



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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

That's what I would figure. It's all in the lines just to traverse the coach. 
That's a lot of volume.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 6, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> I think you missed Mr. Cathey's sarcasm. :)
> 
> Some of the big capacity must be for bringing the system to the front of a 
> motor coach, those lines are long. Still 42# seems like a lot, 42oz would be 
> almost 3#, 42# is around 10 gallons of propane...
> 
> -Curt
> 
> From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List  
> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134
> 
> That's what nitrogen is good for. Pull it down with a vacuum, charge it to 
> 200 PSI with nitrogen, then see if it leaks down. Dye would be handy here, 
> too.
> 
> Are you sure it's 42 pounds? That seems like a lot.
> 
> I would suspect that 42 pounds of R13 would cost a small fortune, however, I 
> don't think I would want 42 pounds of propane in my vehicle, either...
> 
> Dan
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Oct 6, 2014, at 10:19 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> >> The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
> >> this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing 
> >> refill.
> > 
> > This system sounds like it needs thorough testing before you
> > subject the world to a potential leak of that magnitude!  :-)
> > 
> > I believe a decade or so is a long enough test.  That quantity
> > would be not so easy to come up with, probably a commercial
> > HC refrigerant source would be more practical, you could get
> > it in those BBQ-tank sized containers.
> > 
> > I think the R290/R600a combination works pretty well.
> > 
> > -- Jim
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> > has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

So enquiring minds what to know, how big an engine? I'm going to guess 10l 
diesel pusher.

Pictures, the snowmobile guys always say "Indy loves pics!"

-Curt



 From: G Mann 
To: Curt Raymond ; Mercedes Discussion List 
 
Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134
 


All sarcasm accepted... I've certainly taken some lately for taking on this 
project... ;)))


If you truly want to find out who your friends are.. buy a 40ft. Mercedes motor 
coach and ask them to "help you work on it".. hahaha.. 


Oil thread anyone.. it holds 28 quarts.. Coolant.. 33 gallons .. 
Transmission... 8 gallons.. you get the picture... it's big.. 

Grant...





On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 wrote:

I think you missed Mr. Cathey's sarcasm. :)
>
>Some of the big capacity must be for bringing the system to the front of a 
>motor coach, those lines are long. Still 42# seems like a lot, 42oz would be 
>almost 3#, 42# is around 10 gallons of propane...
>
>-Curt
>
>
>
> From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 10:28 AM
>Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134
>
>
>
>That's what nitrogen is good for. Pull it down with a vacuum, charge it to 200 
>PSI with nitrogen, then see if it leaks down. Dye would be handy here, too.
>
>Are you sure it's 42 pounds? That seems like a lot.
>
>I would suspect that 42 pounds of R13 would cost a small fortune, however, I 
>don't think I would want 42 pounds of propane in my vehicle, either...
>
>Dan
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On Oct 6, 2014, at 10:19 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
>wrote:
>
>>> The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
>>> this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing refill.
>>
>> This system sounds like it needs thorough testing before you
>> subject the world to a potential leak of that magnitude!  :-)
>>
>> I believe a decade or so is a long enough test.  That quantity
>> would be not so easy to come up with, probably a commercial
>> HC refrigerant source would be more practical, you could get
>> it in those BBQ-tank sized containers.
>>
>> I think the R290/R600a combination works pretty well.
>>
>> -- Jim
>>
>>
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>
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>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>>
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>> individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner has 
>> no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[G Mann via Mercedes]

All sarcasm accepted... I've certainly taken some lately for taking on this
project... ;)))

If you truly want to find out who your friends are.. buy a 40ft. Mercedes
motor coach and ask them to "help you work on it".. hahaha..

Oil thread anyone.. it holds 28 quarts.. Coolant.. 33 gallons ..
Transmission... 8 gallons.. you get the picture... it's big..
Grant...

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I think you missed Mr. Cathey's sarcasm. :)
>
> Some of the big capacity must be for bringing the system to the front of a
> motor coach, those lines are long. Still 42# seems like a lot, 42oz would
> be almost 3#, 42# is around 10 gallons of propane...
>
> -Curt
>
>
> 
>  From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134
>
>
> That's what nitrogen is good for. Pull it down with a vacuum, charge it to
> 200 PSI with nitrogen, then see if it leaks down. Dye would be handy here,
> too.
>
> Are you sure it's 42 pounds? That seems like a lot.
>
> I would suspect that 42 pounds of R13 would cost a small fortune, however,
> I don't think I would want 42 pounds of propane in my vehicle, either...
>
> Dan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 6, 2014, at 10:19 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> >> The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
> >> this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing
> refill.
> >
> > This system sounds like it needs thorough testing before you
> > subject the world to a potential leak of that magnitude!  :-)
> >
> > I believe a decade or so is a long enough test.  That quantity
> > would be not so easy to come up with, probably a commercial
> > HC refrigerant source would be more practical, you could get
> > it in those BBQ-tank sized containers.
> >
> > I think the R290/R600a combination works pretty well.
> >
> > -- Jim
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> > All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those
> individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
> has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I think you missed Mr. Cathey's sarcasm. :)

Some of the big capacity must be for bringing the system to the front of a 
motor coach, those lines are long. Still 42# seems like a lot, 42oz would be 
almost 3#, 42# is around 10 gallons of propane...

-Curt



 From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134
 

That's what nitrogen is good for. Pull it down with a vacuum, charge it to 200 
PSI with nitrogen, then see if it leaks down. Dye would be handy here, too.

Are you sure it's 42 pounds? That seems like a lot.

I would suspect that 42 pounds of R13 would cost a small fortune, however, I 
don't think I would want 42 pounds of propane in my vehicle, either...

Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 6, 2014, at 10:19 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
wrote:

>> The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
>> this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing refill.
> 
> This system sounds like it needs thorough testing before you
> subject the world to a potential leak of that magnitude!  :-)
> 
> I believe a decade or so is a long enough test.  That quantity
> would be not so easy to come up with, probably a commercial
> HC refrigerant source would be more practical, you could get
> it in those BBQ-tank sized containers.
> 
> I think the R290/R600a combination works pretty well.
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
> All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those 
> individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner has 
> no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.




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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Current quotes on 42 lbs. of R12 are running in the $3000+ range.. so.. I
like your comment of charging the system with nitrogen first. The vehicle
came with a full set of huge AC vac pumps and filters to charge the
system.. package deal.

And yes, I did both a double take.. and a double check.. it really does
hold 42 lbs.. "Ouch"...  "Go big or Go home".. hahah...

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Wasn't there some concern that the BBQ tank gas weren't dry enough for
> this kind of job? I'd presume a 42 lb system would have a pretty dammed
> significant dryer though.
>
> You want to talk chance of fire, I'm not sure how excited I'd be to drive
> around with 10+ gallons of high pressure hydrocarbons but R134a burns
> pretty good so I guess it can't be that big a deal...
>
> -Curt
>
>
> 
>  From: Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
> To: G Mann ; Mercedes Discussion List <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134
>
>
> > The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
> > this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing
> > refill.
>
> This system sounds like it needs thorough testing before you
> subject the world to a potential leak of that magnitude!  :-)
>
> I believe a decade or so is a long enough test.  That quantity
> would be not so easy to come up with, probably a commercial
> HC refrigerant source would be more practical, you could get
> it in those BBQ-tank sized containers.
>
> I think the R290/R600a combination works pretty well.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Wasn't there some concern that the BBQ tank gas weren't dry enough for this 
kind of job? I'd presume a 42 lb system would have a pretty dammed significant 
dryer though.

You want to talk chance of fire, I'm not sure how excited I'd be to drive 
around with 10+ gallons of high pressure hydrocarbons but R134a burns pretty 
good so I guess it can't be that big a deal...

-Curt



 From: Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
To: G Mann ; Mercedes Discussion List 
 
Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134
 

> The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
> this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing 
> refill.

This system sounds like it needs thorough testing before you
subject the world to a potential leak of that magnitude!  :-)

I believe a decade or so is a long enough test.  That quantity
would be not so easy to come up with, probably a commercial
HC refrigerant source would be more practical, you could get
it in those BBQ-tank sized containers.

I think the R290/R600a combination works pretty well.

-- Jim





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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

That's what nitrogen is good for. Pull it down with a vacuum, charge it to 200 
PSI with nitrogen, then see if it leaks down. Dye would be handy here, too.

Are you sure it's 42 pounds? That seems like a lot.

I would suspect that 42 pounds of R13 would cost a small fortune, however, I 
don't think I would want 42 pounds of propane in my vehicle, either...

Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 6, 2014, at 10:19 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
wrote:

>> The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
>> this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing refill.
> 
> This system sounds like it needs thorough testing before you
> subject the world to a potential leak of that magnitude!  :-)
> 
> I believe a decade or so is a long enough test.  That quantity
> would be not so easy to come up with, probably a commercial
> HC refrigerant source would be more practical, you could get
> it in those BBQ-tank sized containers.
> 
> I think the R290/R600a combination works pretty well.
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing 
refill.


This system sounds like it needs thorough testing before you
subject the world to a potential leak of that magnitude!  :-)

I believe a decade or so is a long enough test.  That quantity
would be not so easy to come up with, probably a commercial
HC refrigerant source would be more practical, you could get
it in those BBQ-tank sized containers.

I think the R290/R600a combination works pretty well.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[G Mann via Mercedes]

There you go... global warming issues linked to Mercedes content... Well
now.. First "social comment" . I believe recent studies of the ozone layer
have shown the removal of R12 from use has had little effect on the ozone
layer, if any. Leading to the likely conclusion that bad science was the
cause of bad social engineering by government.
End of personal comment;

Mercedes content:  I just purchased a new Mercedes [to me new] which uses
R12. The R12 charge for my "new Mercedes" is 42 lbs. Thus, I have "skin in
this game" because the system is currently empty and purged, needing refill.

It is a  Mercedes built Setra bus, 40 ft long, curb weight 44,900 lbs. And
no, it can not be converted to 134 easily.
It is 1988 manufacture, so it even qualifies as an "old Mercedes" ... and
no Gary.. I doubt you have parts for it.. but if you do.. contact me.

I would be keenly interested in constructive experience with alternate and
cheaper materials that preform as well as R12.

[Custom motor coach, for those interested]

Grant...

On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 9:55 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> Gerry wrote:
> I posted this to see if there were filters for such issues on the mercedes
> list.
> The existence of such filters on Yahoogroups is being investigated by
> several members of a Yahoogroups list I belong to, and I had hoped to post
> a "failure to deliver" notice here in the hopes that some of the computer
> experts on this list could determine how and/or by whom the message was
> blocked.
>
> The government has proposed laws to control the content of submissions on
> the internet which are opposed by many, left wing and right wing.
>
> It isn't surprising that most members objection to the posting is because
> of its content rather than the fact that it is not about Mercedes.
> Personally, I have a "wait and see" attitude toward "global warming";
> especially since I remember that during the 1970s all the rage was about
> global cooling which was why the government took away R-12 and have caused
> us Mercedes owners all sorts of air conditioning troubles. (Mercedes
> content.)
> Gerry...an observer, not a partisan or activist.
>
> > > Peter wrote:
> > > > This is trash promulgated by a non-scientist with a right wing
> agenda.
> > > > You should know better than to parrot viral garbage racing around the
> > > > internet before you do due diligence.
> ..
> > > Actually your vitriolic rant is what is garbage. I am a scientist and
> am
> > > on an email list of many leading scientists who discuss the
> > > mis-information behind the climate hysteria, not the least of which is
> > > that the climate models are increasingly divergent from what is
> actually
> > > happening.
> > >
> > > From a posting on that list,
> > > --
>
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
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> has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
>
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Kaleb,

Any tips or tricks when adding the hydrocarbon stuff?  Did you pull a
vacuum prior to putting it in, or top up the system?

Max Dillon,
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

The hydrocarbon refrigerants work great and are perfectly safe. I just don't 
use them anymore because I have both an r12 and a r134 machine. I also have 
another r12 machine and a dual 12/134 machine I need to sell.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 6, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> It would be interesting to know what percentage of vehicles out there still 
> have R12 systems. With the push to convert to R134a over the years as well as 
> the relative ease to do so, I have to believe the total number of cars still 
> using R12 has got to be a pretty small percentage of the total with AC.
> 
> That being said, with my recent foray into AC on the S500, I found a lot of 
> "doom and gloom" or overblown warnings against the use of propane based 
> refrigerants. While there has got to be some danger due to flammability, I 
> have to believe the risk is minimal due to the limited volume and the fairly 
> narrow requirements to cause ignition.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, my oldest son's 300E 2.6 still has R12 in 
> it, and I have a can on the shelf. It could probably stand to be topped off, 
> but I don't have a manifold gauge set that will do R12.
> 
> Dan
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Oct 6, 2014, at 7:40 AM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> ‎  Original Message  
>> From: archer75--- via Mercedes
>> Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2014 11:55 PM
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List;
>> 
>> 
>>> global cooling which was why the >government took away R-12
>> 
>> R-12 was taken off the market because it eroded the ozone layer in the upper 
>> atmosphere. It was lauded as a perfect coolant because it is extremely 
>> stable. That attribute was it's downfall, because it was so stable, it 
>> didn’t degrade until it reached the upper atmosphere (perhaps stratosphere?) 
>> where it's molecules were split into their base atoms and the chlorine 
>> contained within caused the destruction of the ozone. I'd be more than happy 
>> to provide footnotes to back these facts up, but I just don't feel like 
>> looking it up right now. 
>> 
>> How does this relate to Mercedes? Our older, beloved Mercedes use this ozone 
>> depleting aerosol as a refrigerant to keep us cool in the summer time and 
>> our windshields clear of fog in spring and fall. As R-12 becomes less and 
>> less available, an adequate substitute needed to be found. I believe that 
>> substitute to be Enviro Safe. It is essentially the Jim Cathey test blend, 
>> with a pine scent added to identify any leaks. It is flammable, however I 
>> think that the possibility of the car being incinerated like the Mercedes in 
>> the movie "Arbitrage" is slim. 
>> 
>> (mores Mercedes content)
>> The R-134a that has been used in Mercedes for nearly two decades is set to 
>> be replaced, however independent testing by Daimler showed it to be 
>> flammable. 
>> 
>> http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/corporate-news/mercedes-benz-independent-study-finds-new-refrigerant-to-be-dangerous/
>> 
>> http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1086548_mercedes-wins-french-court-ruling-in-r134a-refrigerant-case
>> 
>> Rick 
>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner has 
>> no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
> 
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> no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Last week when I installed the new condenser in The White Whale (R-12
system converted by PO), I charged the system with just one can of R-134,
and to my pleasant surprise that was enough pressure for the system to work
and blow cool air.  Temps here don't really require AC now, so I'll
probably leave it alone until next summer.  I've got a few cans of one of
the hydrocarbon-based refrigerants, need to come up with a plan for
installing that.  Instructions say it should not be installed into a
vacuum, so I need to figure out how this "Enviro Safe" should be installed.

Max Dillon,
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

It would be interesting to know what percentage of vehicles out there still 
have R12 systems. With the push to convert to R134a over the years as well as 
the relative ease to do so, I have to believe the total number of cars still 
using R12 has got to be a pretty small percentage of the total with AC.

That being said, with my recent foray into AC on the S500, I found a lot of 
"doom and gloom" or overblown warnings against the use of propane based 
refrigerants. While there has got to be some danger due to flammability, I have 
to believe the risk is minimal due to the limited volume and the fairly narrow 
requirements to cause ignition.

In the interest of full disclosure, my oldest son's 300E 2.6 still has R12 in 
it, and I have a can on the shelf. It could probably stand to be topped off, 
but I don't have a manifold gauge set that will do R12.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 6, 2014, at 7:40 AM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> ‎  Original Message  
> From: archer75--- via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2014 11:55 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List;
> 
> 
>> global cooling which was why the >government took away R-12
> 
> R-12 was taken off the market because it eroded the ozone layer in the upper 
> atmosphere. It was lauded as a perfect coolant because it is extremely 
> stable. That attribute was it's downfall, because it was so stable, it didn’t 
> degrade until it reached the upper atmosphere (perhaps stratosphere?) where 
> it's molecules were split into their base atoms and the chlorine contained 
> within caused the destruction of the ozone. I'd be more than happy to provide 
> footnotes to back these facts up, but I just don't feel like looking it up 
> right now. 
> 
> How does this relate to Mercedes? Our older, beloved Mercedes use this ozone 
> depleting aerosol as a refrigerant to keep us cool in the summer time and our 
> windshields clear of fog in spring and fall. As R-12 becomes less and less 
> available, an adequate substitute needed to be found. I believe that 
> substitute to be Enviro Safe. It is essentially the Jim Cathey test blend, 
> with a pine scent added to identify any leaks. It is flammable, however I 
> think that the possibility of the car being incinerated like the Mercedes in 
> the movie "Arbitrage" is slim. 
> 
> (mores Mercedes content)
> The R-134a that has been used in Mercedes for nearly two decades is set to be 
> replaced, however independent testing by Daimler showed it to be flammable. 
> 
> http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/corporate-news/mercedes-benz-independent-study-finds-new-refrigerant-to-be-dangerous/
> 
> http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1086548_mercedes-wins-french-court-ruling-in-r134a-refrigerant-case
> 
> Rick 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner has 
> no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

‎  Original Message  
From: archer75--- via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List;


>global cooling which was why the >government took away R-12

R-12 was taken off the market because it eroded the ozone layer in the upper 
atmosphere. It was lauded as a perfect coolant because it is extremely stable. 
That attribute was it's downfall, because it was so stable, it didn’t degrade 
until it reached the upper atmosphere (perhaps stratosphere?) where it's 
molecules were split into their base atoms and the chlorine contained within 
caused the destruction of the ozone. I'd be more than happy to provide 
footnotes to back these facts up, but I just don't feel like looking it up 
right now. 

How does this relate to Mercedes? Our older, beloved Mercedes use this ozone 
depleting aerosol as a refrigerant to keep us cool in the summer time and our 
windshields clear of fog in spring and fall. As R-12 becomes less and less 
available, an adequate substitute needed to be found. I believe that substitute 
to be Enviro Safe. It is essentially the Jim Cathey test blend, with a pine 
scent added to identify any leaks. It is flammable, however I think that the 
possibility of the car being incinerated like the Mercedes in the movie 
"Arbitrage" is slim. 

(mores Mercedes content)
The R-134a that has been used in Mercedes for nearly two decades is set to be 
replaced, however independent testing by Daimler showed it to be flammable. 

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/corporate-news/mercedes-benz-independent-study-finds-new-refrigerant-to-be-dangerous/

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1086548_mercedes-wins-french-court-ruling-in-r134a-refrigerant-case

Rick 
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.


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[MBZ] R-12 versus R-134

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

 
Gerry wrote:
I posted this to see if there were filters for such issues on the mercedes 
list. 
The existence of such filters on Yahoogroups is being investigated by several 
members of a Yahoogroups list I belong to, and I had hoped to post a "failure 
to deliver" notice here in the hopes that some of the computer experts on this 
list could determine how and/or by whom the message was blocked.

The government has proposed laws to control the content of submissions on the 
internet which are opposed by many, left wing and right wing. 

It isn't surprising that most members objection to the posting is because of 
its content rather than the fact that it is not about Mercedes.
Personally, I have a "wait and see" attitude toward "global warming"; 
especially since I remember that during the 1970s all the rage was about global 
cooling which was why the government took away R-12 and have caused us Mercedes 
owners all sorts of air conditioning troubles. (Mercedes content.)
Gerry...an observer, not a partisan or activist.

> > Peter wrote:
> > > This is trash promulgated by a non-scientist with a right wing agenda.
> > > You should know better than to parrot viral garbage racing around the
> > > internet before you do due diligence.
..
> > Actually your vitriolic rant is what is garbage. I am a scientist and am
> > on an email list of many leading scientists who discuss the
> > mis-information behind the climate hysteria, not the least of which is
> > that the climate models are increasingly divergent from what is actually
> > happening.
> >
> > From a posting on that list,
> > --

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 or convert R134

[Peter Frederick]

Color is independent of material -- the old ones were butyl rubber, I think, 
and deteriorate in the presence of the ester or polyalkyl-ether oils.  
Fluoropolymer o-rings will work fine with either, and are often filled with 
green pigment instead of carbon black so you can tell that they are the correct 
ones.  However, they are also available in black or red, so you really have to 
know what the material is, not just the color.

The hose set to manifold o-rings have "ears" on them, and I would not replace 
them with plain o-rings, they have to be there for a reason.  The manifold to 
compressor o-rings are expensive for o-rings, which leads me to believe they 
are NOT plain butyl rubber.  The green ones I found in the compressor I just 
installed were obviously deteriorated, and since the AC was discharged and not 
used on that car for most of the time my brother had it, cannot have had that 
much milage on them.

Peter

-Original Message-
>From: Loren Faeth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 23, 2008 12:57 PM
>To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 or convert R134
>
>i don't believe there is a kit.   I think there is an opportunity for 
>Rusty to assemble kits and sell them.  If you buy a new expansion 
>valve, it has the appropriate orings with it.  I lost one inside the 
>cowl of one 124.  I was able to buy a McParts kit that had the right 
>size oring.
>
>Rusty's compressor manifold orings are black.  I have been told the 
>black orings are for R12 only, but No confirmation of that.  Green 
>ones seem to be made for 134 and one parts store had red ones that 
>were supposed to be for either 12 or 134.  I don't know what the 
>truth is.  I'd like to have an authoritative description of the 
>properties of each.
>
>At 11:01 AM 7/23/2008, you wrote:
>>Well, yeah, duh, I know that, but what I was looking for was a kit of
>>all of them for my car.  If I asked Rusty for a kit of AC repair bits
>>per Peter would that suffice?  Would he have to go looking for every
>>one, or do they all come together?
>>
>>--R
>>
>>Loren Faeth wrote:
>> > O-rings are available from Rusty, as is most of the stuff for any MB
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > At 09:46 AM 7/23/2008, you wrote:
>> >
>> >> Where do you get all the parts and solvents, esp the o-rings?  I asked
>> >> at the auto parts store once if they had kits of them, or what, and he
>> >> said you just had to look through whatever they had and get the right
>> >> ones.  That would mean taking out all the old ones, and seeing what
>> >> might be similar -- I kinda wanted to have all the correct bits before I
>> >> went at it.
>> >>
>> >> --R
>> >>
>> >> Peter Frederick wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> W124.  I did it myself -- flushed the condenser and emptied the
>> >>>
>> >> compressor, refilled with 6 oz of PAG 46 per the Nippondenso
>> >> recommended oil.  Had been "converted" before by dumping in some
>> >> ester oil, I suspect, and screwing on a conversion fitting, but
>> >> only on the low side.
>> >>
>> >>> Since I was replacing a bad compressor, I changed all the o-rings
>> >>>
>> >> except the ones on the expansion valve as it was holding pressure
>> >> just fine and working well so long as the compressor would stay on,
>> >> but if you are doing this job under reasonable time constraints
>> >> rather than attempting to get a car on the road for a trip in
>> >> limited time, I would also change those and flush the evaporator
>> >> with commercial flush solvent.
>> >>
>> >>> An amazing amount of crud blew out of the condenser -- the
>> >>>
>> >> expected "aluminum paint", but also a big slug of brown slops, so I
>> >> expect I have good performance due to a clean condenser (which, for
>> >> those who advocate new parallel flow units, IS a parallel flow
>> >> condenser).  Use only a proper flush solution, not some available
>> >> solvent like brake parts cleaner (hexane and dry isopropyl alcohol
>> >> will work, but the commercial ones are better).
>> >>
>> >>> You can also replace the expansion valve with one from the years
>> >>>
>> >> where R134a was stock -- I believe they are slightly different,
>> >> with the later one giving better slow speed performance than the 
>> one for R12.
>> >>
>> >>> And, if yo

Re: [MBZ] R-12 or convert R134

[Loren Faeth]

i don't believe there is a kit.   I think there is an opportunity for 
Rusty to assemble kits and sell them.  If you buy a new expansion 
valve, it has the appropriate orings with it.  I lost one inside the 
cowl of one 124.  I was able to buy a McParts kit that had the right 
size oring.

Rusty's compressor manifold orings are black.  I have been told the 
black orings are for R12 only, but No confirmation of that.  Green 
ones seem to be made for 134 and one parts store had red ones that 
were supposed to be for either 12 or 134.  I don't know what the 
truth is.  I'd like to have an authoritative description of the 
properties of each.

At 11:01 AM 7/23/2008, you wrote:
>Well, yeah, duh, I know that, but what I was looking for was a kit of
>all of them for my car.  If I asked Rusty for a kit of AC repair bits
>per Peter would that suffice?  Would he have to go looking for every
>one, or do they all come together?
>
>--R
>
>Loren Faeth wrote:
> > O-rings are available from Rusty, as is most of the stuff for any MB
> >
> >
> >
> > At 09:46 AM 7/23/2008, you wrote:
> >
> >> Where do you get all the parts and solvents, esp the o-rings?  I asked
> >> at the auto parts store once if they had kits of them, or what, and he
> >> said you just had to look through whatever they had and get the right
> >> ones.  That would mean taking out all the old ones, and seeing what
> >> might be similar -- I kinda wanted to have all the correct bits before I
> >> went at it.
> >>
> >> --R
> >>
> >> Peter Frederick wrote:
> >>
> >>> W124.  I did it myself -- flushed the condenser and emptied the
> >>>
> >> compressor, refilled with 6 oz of PAG 46 per the Nippondenso
> >> recommended oil.  Had been "converted" before by dumping in some
> >> ester oil, I suspect, and screwing on a conversion fitting, but
> >> only on the low side.
> >>
> >>> Since I was replacing a bad compressor, I changed all the o-rings
> >>>
> >> except the ones on the expansion valve as it was holding pressure
> >> just fine and working well so long as the compressor would stay on,
> >> but if you are doing this job under reasonable time constraints
> >> rather than attempting to get a car on the road for a trip in
> >> limited time, I would also change those and flush the evaporator
> >> with commercial flush solvent.
> >>
> >>> An amazing amount of crud blew out of the condenser -- the
> >>>
> >> expected "aluminum paint", but also a big slug of brown slops, so I
> >> expect I have good performance due to a clean condenser (which, for
> >> those who advocate new parallel flow units, IS a parallel flow
> >> condenser).  Use only a proper flush solution, not some available
> >> solvent like brake parts cleaner (hexane and dry isopropyl alcohol
> >> will work, but the commercial ones are better).
> >>
> >>> You can also replace the expansion valve with one from the years
> >>>
> >> where R134a was stock -- I believe they are slightly different,
> >> with the later one giving better slow speed performance than the 
> one for R12.
> >>
> >>> And, if you are going to all this effort, get a new shaft seal
> >>>
> >> and mainfold o-rings for the compressor.  Doesn't take long to
> >> replace them, and you will have essentially a new system.  Do NOT
> >> use green o-rings from an assortment for the manifold seals, inner
> >> or outer -- the proper ones are black rubber and don't fit like you
> >> would expect (they have to be forced into the recess, they don't
> >> fit loose).  Yeah, they cost $4 and something each, but the green
> >> ones I found on my brother's SDL compressor (now happy in my 300D)
> >> were flattened, hard, and showed signs of erosion from escaping 
> hot gasses.
> >>
> >>> Peter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> >>> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>
> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ___
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> >> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
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> >>
> >
> > Loren Faeth
> >
> >
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[MBZ] R-12 holder

[redghost]

http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/zip/190902692.html

free, not mine

clay

[MBZ] R-12

[Scott Ritchey]

Thanks to Jim Friesen for the six-pack of Toyota AC oil in pressurized cans
... which also include a couple ounces of R-12.  I added some yesterday and
it looks like my 86 Sable wagon may make it through another summer now.

Scott Ritchey
Kittrell NC
1982 300SD 220K
1979 300TD 350K
 =


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon Charge

[Tom Scordato]

thanks Jim
- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Cathey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon Charge



Noticed a busted ac hose on my 1979 240D.  System is R12.  Got my 609
certification.  I assume with a broken line all freon is out.


Oh yeah!

Does anyone have a link or a procedure for charging they system with 
R-12.


Any FLAPS book on automotive AC will tell you enough.


I assume I have to add mineral oil  4 oz? (how do you get that in).


If you need to add some, and you only do if you think you've lost
any, you can just pour it into an open hose.


I can get the R-12 anything else I should know special equipment.


I absolutely don't think anybody should touch their AC system
unless they have a set of service gauges and a vacuum pump suitable
for drying.


Do I need to clean system or can I just charge the system?


Did it get dirty?  How long was it open to the atmosphere?
You'll need a new receiver/drier, as its desiccant has probably
saturated by now.  But I don't know that any 'cleaning' will
be necessary.  It depends.  Usually not.


What is the best way, will the cans do it or do I need something else.


Cans are fine.  Just do it right.  See book!


Any sea stories or help/link would be appreciated


There's mine:  http://cathey.dogear.com/cwair.html

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon Charge

[Robert & Tara Ludwick]

For ac specific things the forum at www.aircondition.com is mighty 
handy, as well as the free AC advisor program that  you can download 
from their site that you can use to calculate system pressure at a given 
ambient temp.


Don't add  the full system amount of oil unless you empty all the oil 
out of the system , or youll have too much in there.
If the hose was in a low spot, you may need a littl, if it was high, 
shouldn't need any. ( if you put too much oil in, your system will have 
to run a higher pressure than normal to cool ) If adding for the heck of 
it, don't put more than an oz in it.If you want to know fr sure, dump 
out the compressor and the drier and blow out the condensor and 
evapurator, and then add teh factory oil amount  ( If you want, you 
could flush it at this time )
Get a new drier.( add the apropriate oil for the drier, there should be 
a spec around somewhere for how much oil settles in each componant , or 
as said, if you flush the system, you can add the full amount)


Might not be a bad idea to replace all the orings while you're at it.
Then vacuum out the system, Close the gauges ant turn off vac pump, and 
watch. it should hold vacuum for 15 minuits, I like to see them hold for 
1/2 hour or longer.
Then vac for an hour or so and fill it up. ( use the ac advisor program 
to get the appropriate high side reading )


Put on a jacket and drive :-)

--Robert
Tom Scordato wrote:
Noticed a busted ac hose on my 1979 240D.  System is R12.  Got my 609 
certification.  I assume with a broken line all freon is out.


Does anyone have a link or a procedure for charging they system with R-12. 
I assume I have to add mineral oil  4 oz? (how do you get that in).  I read 
that I may need 2.9lbs.  I can get the R-12 anything else I should know 
special equipment.  No way I am going to convert to other refrigerant if I 
can help it.  Do I need to clean system or can I just charge the system? 
What is the best way, will the cans do it or do I need something else.   New 
ground for me.


Any sea stories or help/link would be appreciated

Regards Tom Scordato











- Original Message - 
From: "wilton strickland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 4:02 PM
Subject: [MBZ] R-12 Freon


  

Rcvd 12  12 oz. cans R-12 Freon today.

Wilton

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon Charge

[Jim Cathey]

Noticed a busted ac hose on my 1979 240D.  System is R12.  Got my 609
certification.  I assume with a broken line all freon is out.


Oh yeah!

Does anyone have a link or a procedure for charging they system with 
R-12.


Any FLAPS book on automotive AC will tell you enough.


I assume I have to add mineral oil  4 oz? (how do you get that in).


If you need to add some, and you only do if you think you've lost
any, you can just pour it into an open hose.


I can get the R-12 anything else I should know special equipment.


I absolutely don't think anybody should touch their AC system
unless they have a set of service gauges and a vacuum pump suitable
for drying.


Do I need to clean system or can I just charge the system?


Did it get dirty?  How long was it open to the atmosphere?
You'll need a new receiver/drier, as its desiccant has probably
saturated by now.  But I don't know that any 'cleaning' will
be necessary.  It depends.  Usually not.


What is the best way, will the cans do it or do I need something else.


Cans are fine.  Just do it right.  See book!


Any sea stories or help/link would be appreciated


There's mine:  http://cathey.dogear.com/cwair.html

-- Jim

[MBZ] R-12 Freon Charge

[Tom Scordato]

Noticed a busted ac hose on my 1979 240D.  System is R12.  Got my 609 
certification.  I assume with a broken line all freon is out.


Does anyone have a link or a procedure for charging they system with R-12. 
I assume I have to add mineral oil  4 oz? (how do you get that in).  I read 
that I may need 2.9lbs.  I can get the R-12 anything else I should know 
special equipment.  No way I am going to convert to other refrigerant if I 
can help it.  Do I need to clean system or can I just charge the system? 
What is the best way, will the cans do it or do I need something else.   New 
ground for me.


Any sea stories or help/link would be appreciated

Regards Tom Scordato











- Original Message - 
From: "wilton strickland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 4:02 PM
Subject: [MBZ] R-12 Freon



Rcvd 12  12 oz. cans R-12 Freon today.

Wilton

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[MBZ] R-12 Freon

[wilton strickland]

Rcvd 12  12 oz. cans R-12 Freon today.

Wilton

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[JFreezn]

 
In a message dated 3/8/2006 8:15:20 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

'Ordered  case of 12  12 oz. cans yesterday @ $250 from ATC  Specialists,
www.refrigerantsales.com
30 lb tnks also avail. @  $560.
Substitute stuff avail, too.



Wilton,
 
Please let us know if your transaction is satisfactory when the  product is 
received.
 
Jim  Friesen
Phoenix AZ
79 300SD, 262 K miles 
98 ML 320, 140 K  miles

[MBZ] R-12 Freon

[wilton strickland]

'Ordered case of 12  12 oz. cans yesterday @ $250 from ATC Specialists,
www.refrigerantsales.com
30 lb tnks also avail. @ $560.
Substitute stuff avail, too.

Wilton

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Mitch Haley]

Jim Cathey wrote:
> I think it's about the same as the homebrew test refrigerant.
> (Which I have been pleased with.)

Yep, I'm pretty sure it's propane/isobutane, sure enough I'm not
going to look it up.

I was surprised a couple of years ago when I called a gas dealer to buy
propane and isobutatne by the refrigerant numbers (R290=propane R600a=iso)
that they wanted several dollars a pound for refrigerant grade hydrocarbons. 

Furnace grade propane has a bit of H2O in it, as well as a nasty stink
ingredient for leak detection, so it's less than ideal, but the idea of
paying three figures for a 20lb can of R290 propane makes me choke.

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Brian Baker]

I've had good luck with it.  I've been using it as a test refridgerent for 
almost 8 months now. And for your convienence, in the same car with no 
problems.

No affiliation at all with envirosafe.
- Original Message - 
From: "Anthony Galioto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mercedes Discussion List" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon


Does anyone know anything about this product Enviro-Safe.  I came across 
it
on the web.  The sell small cans , I don't know if it's any good or not. 
It

may be worth a look at their site.
http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm
Anthony

On 3/7/06, Robert & Tara Ludwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I tried the autofrost in one car. If you use that stuff, better make
real sure that your system is completely leak free. It ran great for a
week, by 3 weeks it was empty. Switched it to r134 and it went a year
and a half before having to add any.Didn't notice any temp difference
out the vents between the autofrost and the r134a, and this is in
Arkansas ( read that real hot :-)

--Robert

Mitch Haley wrote:
> Jim Cathey wrote:
>
>> Never convert anything to R134a that you care about.  Keep it
>> R12, or use any of the fine mineral-oil-compatible R12 substitutes
>> out there.  The PAG/POE oils are evil hygroscopic compressor-killers.
>> I spend about $7 to recharge one of our systems using a test
>> refrigerant.  It can work even better than R12, if not in the
>> deep South.
>>
>
> If you are in the deep south and want maximum cooling, try this:
> http://www.refrigerantsales.com/st_af.html
>
> I believe a 9.6oz can of autofrost is supposed to equal a 12oz freon.
>
> ___
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>
>
>


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--
Anthony
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Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Jim Cathey]

Does anyone know anything about this product Enviro-Safe.  I came 
across it
on the web.  The sell small cans , I don't know if it's any good or 
not.  It

may be worth a look at their site.


I think it's about the same as the homebrew test refrigerant.
(Which I have been pleased with.)

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Anthony Galioto]

Does anyone know anything about this product Enviro-Safe.  I came across it
on the web.  The sell small cans , I don't know if it's any good or not.  It
may be worth a look at their site.
http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm
Anthony

On 3/7/06, Robert & Tara Ludwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I tried the autofrost in one car. If you use that stuff, better make
> real sure that your system is completely leak free. It ran great for a
> week, by 3 weeks it was empty. Switched it to r134 and it went a year
> and a half before having to add any.Didn't notice any temp difference
> out the vents between the autofrost and the r134a, and this is in
> Arkansas ( read that real hot :-)
>
> --Robert
>
> Mitch Haley wrote:
> > Jim Cathey wrote:
> >
> >> Never convert anything to R134a that you care about.  Keep it
> >> R12, or use any of the fine mineral-oil-compatible R12 substitutes
> >> out there.  The PAG/POE oils are evil hygroscopic compressor-killers.
> >> I spend about $7 to recharge one of our systems using a test
> >> refrigerant.  It can work even better than R12, if not in the
> >> deep South.
> >>
> >
> > If you are in the deep south and want maximum cooling, try this:
> > http://www.refrigerantsales.com/st_af.html
> >
> > I believe a 9.6oz can of autofrost is supposed to equal a 12oz freon.
> >
> > ___
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> > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ___
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> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
>



--
Anthony

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Robert & Tara Ludwick]

I tried the autofrost in one car. If you use that stuff, better make 
real sure that your system is completely leak free. It ran great for a 
week, by 3 weeks it was empty. Switched it to r134 and it went a year 
and a half before having to add any.Didn't notice any temp difference 
out the vents between the autofrost and the r134a, and this is in 
Arkansas ( read that real hot :-)


--Robert

Mitch Haley wrote:

Jim Cathey wrote:
  

Never convert anything to R134a that you care about.  Keep it
R12, or use any of the fine mineral-oil-compatible R12 substitutes
out there.  The PAG/POE oils are evil hygroscopic compressor-killers.
I spend about $7 to recharge one of our systems using a test
refrigerant.  It can work even better than R12, if not in the
deep South.



If you are in the deep south and want maximum cooling, try this:
http://www.refrigerantsales.com/st_af.html

I believe a 9.6oz can of autofrost is supposed to equal a 12oz freon.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Tom Hargrave]

Wilton,

The 11 - 12 oz cans are the most inefficient way to charge a system because
you use whole cans. You are better off with a 30 pound can, even at $800.00.

By the way, $800 is cheap - I was recently quoted $1300.00 for 30 pounds of
R12. Where did you locate 30 pounds of R12 for $800.00? 


Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
256-656-1924
www.kegkits.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of wilton strickland
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 10:35 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

Otherwise showroom 87 300D (124) needs Freon.  Refridg tech can't find
locally small quantity R-12 needed.  Plenty 30 lb. tnks available @ $800.
Looking for 3 or 4 lbs.  Why so much?  Hopefully, a little resrerve.
May need to go to 134A.  Any tips?

Wilton


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Mitch Haley]

Jim Cathey wrote:
> 
> Never convert anything to R134a that you care about.  Keep it
> R12, or use any of the fine mineral-oil-compatible R12 substitutes
> out there.  The PAG/POE oils are evil hygroscopic compressor-killers.
> I spend about $7 to recharge one of our systems using a test
> refrigerant.  It can work even better than R12, if not in the
> deep South.

If you are in the deep south and want maximum cooling, try this:
http://www.refrigerantsales.com/st_af.html

I believe a 9.6oz can of autofrost is supposed to equal a 12oz freon.

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Jim Cathey]

Otherwise showroom 87 300D (124) needs Freon.  Refridg tech can't find
locally small quantity R-12 needed.  Plenty 30 lb. tnks available @ 
$800.

Looking for 3 or 4 lbs.  Why so much?  Hopefully, a little resrerve.
May need to go to 134A.  Any tips?


Never convert anything to R134a that you care about.  Keep it
R12, or use any of the fine mineral-oil-compatible R12 substitutes
out there.  The PAG/POE oils are evil hygroscopic compressor-killers.
I spend about $7 to recharge one of our systems using a test
refrigerant.  It can work even better than R12, if not in the
deep South.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Dave M.]

Wilton,

First, I think you are doing the wise thing by sticking with R-12...
I'm a strong proponent of fixig & recharging R-12 systems, and NEVER
converting to R-134a (or anything else that won't work with mineral
oil.)

Anyway, what I would recommend is getting your EPA certification
online, cost is under $20. Then buy a few cans of R-12 off eBay, or
wherever else you can find it cheap. Pretty sure 12oz cans are still
selling for ~$20/ea on eBay. I think it will take a bit over 3 cans to
fully charge an empty W124 system. Maybe 3 cans would be enough to
give you 90%+ charge so you don't need to tap into a fourth, lol.

You can find 30lb tanks for $400-$500, but there's always a risk that
it's not virgin R-12. I'd be really careful buying one of these unless
it's a local seller where you can personally inspect the tank before
buying, to make sure the factory seal is intact.

Worst case, convert to an alternative refrigerant that works with
mineral oil, like AutoFrost. The drawback to these is you can't top
off... not a big deal if your system is leak free.

:-)

-Dave M.

> --
> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 11:34:37 -0500
> From: "wilton strickland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [MBZ] R-12 Freon
>
>
> Otherwise showroom 87 300D (124) needs Freon.  Refridg tech can't find
> locally small quantity R-12 needed.  Plenty 30 lb. tnks available @ $800.
> Looking for 3 or 4 lbs.  Why so much?  Hopefully, a little resrerve.
> May need to go to 134A.  Any tips?
>
> Wilton

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Craig McCluskey]

On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 11:34:37 -0500 "wilton strickland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> May need to go to 134A.  Any tips?

Avoid the R134A. Use a substitute for R12.


Craig

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[OK Don]

Or, you could use Hotshot, Duracool, etc. 

On 3/4/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Or, you could convert it to R134a.
>

--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
'90 300D 243K, Rattled
'87 300SDL 290K, Limo Lite, or blue car
'81 240D 173K, Gramps, or yellow car
'78 450SLC 67K, brown car
'97 Ply Grand Voyager 78K Van Go

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[l02turner]

Or, you could convert it to R134a.

Sincerely,
Larry T ('74 911, '67 MGB, 91 300D Turbo)
A Blood Test for your oil - www.youroil.net
For Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
Weber Carb Stuff http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
http://members.rennlist.com/my_911/Index.htm For my Paint Job Info
- Original Message - 
From: "wilton strickland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: [MBZ] R-12 Freon



Otherwise showroom 87 300D (124) needs Freon.  Refridg tech can't find
locally small quantity R-12 needed.  Plenty 30 lb. tnks available @ $800.
Looking for 3 or 4 lbs.  Why so much?  Hopefully, a little resrerve.
May need to go to 134A.  Any tips?

Wilton


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Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[l02turner]

you asked:<<30 lb. tnks available @ $800.

Looking for 3 or 4 lbs.  Why so much?>>


The easy answer? - Taxes.  The US Gov raised taxes so high to drive R12 out 
of business.  It was being made world wide and is still being smuggled 
across the border - the penalties are less than smuggling drugs and the 
profit is still pretty high.  Rememeber when it used to sell for $1 a can at 
FLAPS?  The only thing that changed was the tax.


BTW, a friend used to work at NASA - he said their wind tunnels used to leak 
R12 to the tune of hundred of *tons* per year!  Naturally they had to 
convert as well -- 

R12 is available in smaller quantites on eBay - naturally.  Last I checked 
it was $30-$80/1 # can.

HTH's

Sincerely,
Larry T ('74 911, '67 MGB, 91 300D Turbo)
A Blood Test for your oil - www.youroil.net
For Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
Weber Carb Stuff http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
http://members.rennlist.com/my_911/Index.htm For my Paint Job Info
- Original Message - 
From: "wilton strickland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: [MBZ] R-12 Freon



Otherwise showroom 87 300D (124) needs Freon.  Refridg tech can't find
locally small quantity R-12 needed.  Plenty 30 lb. tnks available @ $800.
Looking for 3 or 4 lbs.  Why so much?  Hopefully, a little resrerve.
May need to go to 134A.  Any tips?

Wilton


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[MBZ] R-12 Freon

[wilton strickland]

Otherwise showroom 87 300D (124) needs Freon.  Refridg tech can't find
locally small quantity R-12 needed.  Plenty 30 lb. tnks available @ $800.
Looking for 3 or 4 lbs.  Why so much?  Hopefully, a little resrerve.
May need to go to 134A.  Any tips?

Wilton

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Mitch Haley]

wilton strickland wrote:
> 
> Where can I get 3 or 4 lbs. of R-12 Freon?

Why so much?
What's the capacity of your W140?

I think my stockpile is down to six 14oz cans.

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[PONDERSOA]

you are going to need an r 12 license i have one but it is still easy to  get 
freon on ebay 
 let me know if i can help 
 also there are very good alternatives now to r 12 that seem to work  well 
 mike collins 
1985 500 sec 
phila 

Re: [MBZ] R-12 Freon

[Jim Cathey]

Where can I get 3 or 4 lbs. of R-12 Freon?


NAPA, if you've got your certificate.

-- Jim

[MBZ] R-12 Freon

[wilton strickland]

Where can I get 3 or 4 lbs. of R-12 Freon?

Wilton

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[ms.300SD]

Wow. I guess I got the super deal with I was the only bidder on a 30# tank 
of virgin freon. 250.00 delivered to the house

The 300SD is quite chilly once again! Yay!

Lynn
'85 300SD 190k miles

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Tom Hargrave]

That's a great price. My last 30 pound bottle cost me $770.00 and that was
more than a few years ago.


Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
256-656-1924
www.kegkits.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Constantine N. Polites
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 7:28 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [MBZ] R-12


On August 4, 2005, I ordered a 30# cylinder of R-12 from Donald Knieriem in
Murray, KY.
Tel. 270 293 9696.
 I prepaid him $ 435., as agreed- with my check. Today  I got the material
in excellent condition .

Regards,
Constantine


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Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

Oh, OK.

Mitch Haley wrote:


"Kaleb C. Striplin" wrote:


huh?




He told us he was buying the stuff, and I said let us know if the seller
delivers, now he's let us know. $395 + $40 shipping is the best price I've
seen in almost ten years if the stuff is virgin.

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 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE,
 85 300D,  83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D,
 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 69 250
Okie Benz Auto parts-email for used parts

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Mitch Haley]

"Kaleb C. Striplin" wrote:
> 
> huh?
> 

He told us he was buying the stuff, and I said let us know if the seller
delivers, now he's let us know. $395 + $40 shipping is the best price I've
seen in almost ten years if the stuff is virgin.

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

huh?

Constantine N. Polites wrote:

On August 4, 2005, I ordered a 30# cylinder of R-12 from Donald Knieriem 
in Murray, KY.

Tel. 270 293 9696.
 I prepaid him $ 435., as agreed- with my check. Today  I got the 
material in excellent condition .


Regards,
Constantine


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Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE,
 85 300D,  83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D,
 76 450SEL, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 69 250
Okie Benz Auto parts-email for used parts

[MBZ] R-12

[Constantine N. Polites]

On August 4, 2005, I ordered a 30# cylinder of R-12 from Donald Knieriem 
in Murray, KY.

Tel. 270 293 9696.
I prepaid him $ 435., as agreed- with my check. Today  I got the 
material in excellent condition .


Regards,
Constantine

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Tjohn]

I've gotta say, I've pulled an indicated 30" with my Harbor Freight
venturi pump.  My gauge was actually pegged.  I've heard bad things
about the venturi's, but for $15 (and $10 if you get it on sale like
me :) ) its fine.  Now, the caveats - I was using shop air with some
insane amount of CFM of flow at 90 PSI.  My lame little 2.7CFM
compressor only pulls it to 15" or so.  I'm also at sea level for what
its worth.

Tjohn
82 300 SD 

On 8/8/05, Dave M. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joe,
> 

> On a side note, all this discussion about pulling less than 29" vacuum
> to me seems absurd... if you want the system evacuated properly with
> as much moisture as possible boiled out, you're not going to get that
> with a venturi pump (27-28" max)(snip)
>

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Bucks2]

How exactly would one determine that the R12/oil was the cause of the fire? 
I've been to literally hundreds, if not thousands of car crashes in the last 26 
years on one of those shiny red fire engines and have never been able to 
pinpoint the AC as the culprit or even a contributor. I think it much more 
likely 
to be that a crash of such consequence would spread gasoline, diesel, motor 
oil, or scrape and short out wires causing electrical insulation to burn. Have 
I 
seen AC components broken and their contents leaked out? Lots of times. Never 
been able to pin a fire on it though. 

Ken


In a message dated 8/10/2005 5:00:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
From: Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12
To: Mercedes mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

David Brodbeck wrote:
> That's the oil mist burning, then.  Bet it'd burn even better if you
> used compressed air instead of R-12. ;)

What's the miscibility of mineral oil in air?
I think the picture's point is that if you break open the condensor in
a crash, R12 burns just fine.

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Trampas]

The oil mist from R12 A/C system will burn! Duracool and other HC based
refrigerants will burn. Gasoline will burn. Diesel fuel will burn. Engine
oil will burn, Power Steering fluid will burn. So basically you are driving
around surrounded by flammable material in your vehicle. 

My simple view is that the fuel line that runs from the rear of my car to
the front carrying gasoline which can have over 60PSI of pressure worries me
a lot more than the 2.2lbs of hydrocarbons I put in my A/C system.  A pint
of gasoline has more energy than something like 16 sticks of dynamite, and
the fuel line has a long run that could break in an accident from almost any
direction. 

I actually think the hydrocarbons being illegal in US is there to protect
the mechanic who smokes a cigarette as he charges an A/C system and if it
was legal then Du-Pont would lose a lot of money from the sale of 134a. 

Of course opinions are like a** holes, everyone has got one and they are
often full of crap. I am no different and will be the first to say by using
the hydrocarbon system I might be on the road to Darwinism, but I can accept
that. 

Regards,
Trampas 
  
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mitch Haley
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:36 AM
To: Mercedes mailing list
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12

David Brodbeck wrote:
> That's the oil mist burning, then.  Bet it'd burn even better if you
> used compressed air instead of R-12. ;)

What's the miscibility of mineral oil in air?
I think the picture's point is that if you break open the condensor in
a crash, R12 burns just fine.

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Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Mitch Haley]

David Brodbeck wrote:
> That's the oil mist burning, then.  Bet it'd burn even better if you
> used compressed air instead of R-12. ;)

What's the miscibility of mineral oil in air?
I think the picture's point is that if you break open the condensor in
a crash, R12 burns just fine.

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[PONDERSOA]

fellahs
 if you hold a torch to just about  any oil and disperse it in a  mist it 
will burn 
  i had concerns about using a hydrocarbon based refrigerant 
 and what i  the simple facts are i have found is(in  short) 
A  134 can jack you up if inhaled
 B  all of this stuff if burned makes God only knows what  which  will really 
jack you up!
C  in order for a HC gas to be dangerous a great deal of the gas  would have 
to be released all at one time, i think that would be unlikely   unless there 
was a severe crash ( in that case i don't think that is really  gonna be a 
problem)
 any way  
   the choice you have 
no cooling... 
marginal cooling
or cold air
 mike collins 
1985 500 sec 

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[David Brodbeck]

Craig McCluskey wrote:
> R-12 by itself is non-flammable. However, R-12 is not used by itself in
> auto air conditioning systems. As the attached photo shows, R-12 and
> refrigeration oil burn very nicely.

That's the oil mist burning, then.  Bet it'd burn even better if you
used compressed air instead of R-12. ;)

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Craig McCluskey]

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:04:15 -0700 David Brodbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Hey Mitch,
> >  
> > Care to share where you got your information from? Not trying to start
> > a flame war or anything, but ...
> >  
> > If R-12 was flammable, then you you need a 20$ hazmat charge to ship
> > any of it. The bottles would be labled with the 4 squares as
> > flammable. The DOT/IMO label for R-12 is NONFLAMMABLE GAS
> 
> AFAIK it's non-flammable, in that it won't support combustion.  R-134
> will break down into some nasty components if it's gotten hot enough,
> however.

R-12 by itself is non-flammable. However, R-12 is not used by itself in
auto air conditioning systems. As the attached photo shows, R-12 and
refrigeration oil burn very nicely.


Craig
<>

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[David Brodbeck]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hey Mitch,
>  
> Care to share where you got your information from? Not trying to start a
> flame war or anything, but ...
>  
> If R-12 was flammable, then you you need a 20$ hazmat charge to ship any
> of it. The bottles would be labled with the 4 squares as flammable. The
> DOT/IMO label for R-12 is NONFLAMMABLE GAS

AFAIK it's non-flammable, in that it won't support combustion.  R-134
will break down into some nasty components if it's gotten hot enough,
however.

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[72benz250]

Hey Mitch,

Care to share where you got your information from? Not trying to start a flame 
war or anything, but ...

If R-12 was flammable, then you you need a 20$ hazmat charge to ship any of it. 
The bottles would be labled with the 4 squares as flammable. The DOT/IMO label 
for R-12 is NONFLAMMABLE GAS

Here is the MSDS sheet for Freon R-12 from Dupont.
http://msds.dupont.com/msds/pdfs/EN/PEN_09004a2f800069d3.pdf

Here is the fire fighting information from the document above:
--
FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES
--
Flammable Properties
Flash Point : Will not burn
Flammable limits in Air, % by Volume
LEL : Not applicable
UEL : Not applicable
Autoignition : >750 C (>1382 F)
Fire and Explosion Hazards:
Cylinders may rupture under fire conditions. Decomposition
may occur.
Extinguishing Media
As appropriate for combustibles in area.
Fire Fighting Instructions
Use water spray or fog to cool containers. Self-contained
breathing apparatus (SCBA) is required if cylinders rupture
and contents are released under fire conditions. Water
runoff should be contained and neutralized prior to release.

Here is the shipping information from the document above
--
TRANSPORTATION INFORMATION
--
Shipping Information
DOT/IMO
Proper Shipping Name : DICHLORODIFLUOROMETHANE
Hazard Class : 2.2
UN No. : 1028
DOT/IMO Label : NONFLAMMABLE GAS
Shipping Containers
Tank Cars.
Cylinders
Ton Tanks
Reportable Quantity : 5,000 lbs./2,270 kg.

-- Original message -- 

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
> > 
> > Hey Mitch, 
> > 
> > Where would that be? 
> 
> Wherever it is that you said flammable refrigerants are illegal. 
> R12 and R134a are flammable, and the combustion byproducts are 
> a lot less innocent than those from hydrocarbons. 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > -- Original message -- 
> > 
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > BTW some states have laws against putting flamables in your AC 
> system. 
> > > 
> > > So what do you do where the law doesn't allow R12 or R134a? 
> 
> ___ 
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Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Mitch Haley]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Hey Mitch,
> 
> Where would that be? 

Wherever it is that you said flammable refrigerants are illegal. 
R12 and R134a are flammable, and the combustion byproducts are
a lot less innocent than those from hydrocarbons. 



> 
>  -- Original message --
> 
>  > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  > >
>  > > BTW some states have laws against putting flamables in your AC 
> system.
>  >
>  > So what do you do where the law doesn't allow R12 or R134a?

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[72benz250]

Hey Mitch,

Where would that be? In the US the current defacto standard is r-134. If you 
have a 1993 or older system then you have r-12 and can fill it with r-12 until 
supplies are exhausted.

EPA states you can retrofit a r-12 to r-134. Once it's a r-134 system then 
there are no EPA laws about converting r-134 to anything else like Duracool, 
ef-12 ... but there are some state laws that limit what you can put into your 
AC such as flamables.

Makes sense?

George
-- Original message -- 

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
> > 
> > BTW some states have laws against putting flamables in your AC system. 
> 
> So what do you do where the law doesn't allow R12 or R134a? 
> 
> ___ 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: 
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Re: [MBZ] R-12

[72benz250]

Hey Joe,

I'm sure they can have the dryer tested for any reminantes for POE or R-134 in 
the discicant if they really wanted to.

-- Original message -- 

> But who's gonna know if you only give the 'appearance' of having 
> converted to 134a by just and only adding the required fittings. Not 
> that I would advocate this of course, or ever even consider doing it 
> myself. :) 
> 
> j 
> 
> On 8/8/05, Dave M. wrote: 
> > Joe, 
> > 
> > That's a good question - might be a loophole, if one actually wanted 
> > to do this. However to me it would be highly undesireable because you 
> > would need to contaminate a virgin mineral oil system with POE in 
> > order to do the 134a conversion. 
> ... 
> 
> ___ 
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Re: [MBZ] R- 12 this will actually help ppl

[PONDERSOA]

 
OK PPL  
here I go 
if any body is  interested  you can make a compressor from junk  that will 
give good(  actually great) service 
 ( you must have gages or at least 1 hose to connect to the  system  about 
$15.00 
firstly the concept of using engine vacuum  to evacuate an air conditioner 
system is ridiculous ... it aint going to work ..  )in short what you are doing 
when a system is evacuated is 1 removing  noncondensible gasses 
2 boiling off water vapor
3 and checking for leaks  
to do this the right way  you need 28 actually 29 or more   inches of mercury 
 I usually do this for at least 1 hour... unplug my  compressor and check the 
gauges if the system holds vacuum ..add freon  
now here is what you need

an old refrigerator  motor( this  is a compressor its usually big black and 
makes the characteristic  humming  sound we are all familiar with)
however a air conditioner  dehumidifier  or water cooler will do the same
any thing that has a compressor in  it  will work

1 remove the compressor its usually bolted in  there will be 2 lines commeing 
out of the  compressor  one is a high  side the other is a low side
now cut the lines useing a tubing cutter so you  will have a clean cut  you 
want maybe 3 or 4 inches of line on the  compressor 
if you have used a air conditioner  there   usually wires going to a 
capacitor   this looks like a oval  metal  can with wires going to it  leave 
the wires 
connected and where  the wires come out of the unit  use the appliances 
electrical cord and plug  reconnecting them using wire nuts and electrical tape

so far you  have spent nothing well sorry I forgot the tubing cutter 
available at  home depot
 a small one should be under 10.00 
now go to any air conditioner  supply house  
 
_http://corporate.johnstonesupply.com/_ 
(http://corporate.johnstonesupply.com/) 

take the compressor with you ,and get a solder tee (  these range in price se 
...$5.84 to $16.29... )that will fit  those  nice clean cut tubes on the unit 
  and solder the tee on the suction  side only!!!
 use one do not close ,crimp or shut off the pressure side ...  now you have 
a vacuum pump that will work just fine and it cost  nothing 
PS  
 a plastic milk crate works just fine to carry this in ...
 go get em 
 mike collins 
phila 
1985 500 sec 
   

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Marshall Booth]

Dave M. wrote:

Despite 'only' some 17 states making it illegal, it's illegal to use
any flammable refrigerant in a motor vehicle in the United States, if
that motor vehicle's AC system originally contained R-12. (Don't ask
me why they'll allow it to replace R-134a in the 33 other states, if
the car originally had 134a - seems bizarre to me.) That includes
Duracool, btw. But hey, don't take my word for it... read it here as
part of the EPA test study guide:


But it IS legal to change a system that has already been converted to 
R-134a to the "flammable" refrigerants according to EPA.


Marshall
--
  Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions)
  "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 181Kmi,'87 190D 2.5 199Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 227Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 
159Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 234kmi

  Diesel Technical Advisor MBCA, member GWSection
http://www.dhc.net/~pmhack/mercedes/mbooth1.htm

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Joe Knight]

But who's gonna know if you only give the 'appearance' of having
converted to 134a by just and only adding the required fittings.  Not
that I would advocate this of course, or ever even consider doing it
myself.  :)

j

On 8/8/05, Dave M. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joe,
> 
> That's a good question - might be a loophole, if one actually wanted
> to do this. However to me it would be highly undesireable because you
> would need to contaminate a virgin mineral oil system with POE in
> order to do the 134a conversion.
...

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Dave M.]

Joe,

That's a good question - might be a loophole, if one actually wanted
to do this. However to me it would be highly undesireable because you
would need to contaminate a virgin mineral oil system with POE in
order to do the 134a conversion. I'd be more interested in keeping it 
 PAG/POE-free than wanting to use a certain refrigerant. To me, the
only advantage of the flammable stuff is cost - it's cheap. ;-)

On a side note, all this discussion about pulling less than 29" vacuum
to me seems absurd... if you want the system evacuated properly with
as much moisture as possible boiled out, you're not going to get that
with a venturi pump (27-28" max) and definitely not from an idling gas
engine (20-22" max at idle, imo, unless you're revving it and shutting
the throttle.) Only way to get 29+ is with a dedicated vac pump.
They're available for rent if you don't want to shell out ~$200 to buy
a new one.

(flame suit on)

-dm

> --
> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:36:49 -0700
> From: Joe Knight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12
> To: Mercedes mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> I've been under the impression that where otherwise legal you can meet
> the EPA standard by first converting an R-12 system to 134a and then
> convert to HC.  In other words & for practical purposes, empty the
> system, install 134 fittings, et voila.  Not so?  I'm sure I've heard
> that argued & don't see anything in the text that would squash that
> interpretation.  Well, I'll admit that the shortcut 'conversion' might
> kinda fly in the face of it, but so what...?
> 
> joe

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Mitch Haley]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> BTW some states have laws against putting flamables in your AC system.

So what do you do where the law doesn't allow R12 or R134a?

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[72benz250]

Hey Joe,

You are correct. EPA mandates r-12 conversions but does not state anything 
about r-134 conversions.

Using HC is very common in europe.

-- Original message -- 

> I've been under the impression that where otherwise legal you can meet 
> the EPA standard by first converting an R-12 system to 134a and then 
> convert to HC. In other words & for practical purposes, empty the 
> system, install 134 fittings, et voila. Not so? I'm sure I've heard 
> that argued & don't see anything in the text that would squash that 
> interpretation. Well, I'll admit that the shortcut 'conversion' might 
> kinda fly in the face of it, but so what...? 
> 
> joe 
> 
> On 8/8/05, Dave M. wrote: 
> > Despite 'only' some 17 states making it illegal, it's illegal to use 
> > any flammable refrigerant in a motor vehicle in the United States, if 
> > that motor vehicle's AC system originally contained R-12. (Don't ask 
> > me why they'll allow it to replace R-134a in the 33 other states, if 
> > the car originally had 134a - seems bizarre to me.) That includes 
> > Duracool, btw. But hey, don't take my word for it... read it here as 
> > part of the EPA test study guide: 
> > 
> > http://www.imaca.org/sg-13.htm#flammable 
> 
> ___ 
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> For new parts see www.buymbparts.com 
> For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com 
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: 
> http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net 

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Joe Knight]

I've been under the impression that where otherwise legal you can meet
the EPA standard by first converting an R-12 system to 134a and then
convert to HC.  In other words & for practical purposes, empty the
system, install 134 fittings, et voila.  Not so?  I'm sure I've heard
that argued & don't see anything in the text that would squash that
interpretation.  Well, I'll admit that the shortcut 'conversion' might
kinda fly in the face of it, but so what...?

joe

On 8/8/05, Dave M. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Despite 'only' some 17 states making it illegal, it's illegal to use
> any flammable refrigerant in a motor vehicle in the United States, if
> that motor vehicle's AC system originally contained R-12. (Don't ask
> me why they'll allow it to replace R-134a in the 33 other states, if
> the car originally had 134a - seems bizarre to me.) That includes
> Duracool, btw. But hey, don't take my word for it... read it here as
> part of the EPA test study guide:
> 
> http://www.imaca.org/sg-13.htm#flammable

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Dave M.]

Despite 'only' some 17 states making it illegal, it's illegal to use
any flammable refrigerant in a motor vehicle in the United States, if
that motor vehicle's AC system originally contained R-12. (Don't ask
me why they'll allow it to replace R-134a in the 33 other states, if
the car originally had 134a - seems bizarre to me.) That includes
Duracool, btw. But hey, don't take my word for it... read it here as
part of the EPA test study guide:

http://www.imaca.org/sg-13.htm#flammable

:-)

-Dave M. (EPA 609 certified as of last night - woo-hoo!)


> --
> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:19:32 +
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12
> 
> BTW some states have laws against putting flamables in your AC system.
> Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, 
> Louisiana, Maryland, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, 
> Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, and the District of Columbia

Re: [MBZ] R-12

[72benz250]

BTW some states have laws against putting flamables in your AC system.
Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, 
Louisiana, Maryland, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, 
Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, and the District of Columbia
-- Original message -- 

I just got a 560SEL which the AC was very poor on. Removed the Freeze 12 and 
then put the A/C system on vacuum pump. Normally the cars go to 30” and hold 
pretty well, but this one was going down real slow, so I knew it had moisture 
in it. One of the tricks I do is bring system down into deep vacuum then close 
off gauges and let sit, if the pressure increases you have more moisture in 
system, assuming you do not have a leak. This is due to the fact that the 
vacuum makes the water in system boil at room temperature. Thus it will boil 
and turn to vapor which expanses and causes pressure to increase. When all the 
moisture is out of the system and you close off the valves it will hold vacuum 
for hours. 

A couple of other tricks I use are when sucking the vacuum take a torch and 
heat up the receiver/dryer this will help any moisture boil out. But by far the 
best things is to keep a vacuum pump running on the system for at least an 
hour. It is amazing the difference it makes in the A/C system to have all the 
moisture removed. 

By the way, years ago I worked at a junk yard and was working on the A/C system 
in my truck. I did not have access to a vacuum pump, so I hooked up the A/C 
system to the manifold vacuum and let truck idle (gasser). This worked like a 
charm gave me 29” of vacuum. After which I drove truck to a junker that still 
had Freon in it, hook up gauges sucked Freon out of junker and into truck. 

I personally use the Freeze 12, HC-12A, or Duracool, in my old boats. Yes these 
are flammable but so is gasoline. Basically theses substances are a mixture of 
about 90% propane and 10% isobutane. It works very well in A/C systems, in fact 
I have heard of people using BBQ propane in old refrigerators and A/C systems 
but I have been told it does not work as well as the mixture. I have even read 
that if you increase the butane amount it can actually work better than R-12.  

For flushing A/C systems (R-12) I use mineral spirits, I do not have a flush 
gun thus I pour into hose then use air to blow through system. Do not flush 
through expansion valve as trash can plug it. If the compressor is bad you can 
guarantee that metal flakes are in system and you will have to flush it. Not 
that removing the expansion valve on some W126, my 420SEL and 560SELs are a 
pain in the butt, while the 300SD is easy, the difference is reinforcing bars 
that were added. I am not sure if these reinforcing bars are only on the longer 
W126 or if it was added post 1985. Also if you replace compressor replace 
receiver/dryer as it will be full of metal. 

For the 300SD with the R4 compressor I think the compressor takes about 8oz of 
oil, thus the system will be some where around 10oz. I have not looked up the 
amount for the other compressors and cars. The  R4 compressor, this is the same 
compressor used on a 1983 Chevy C1500 pick-up which can be purchased at local 
auto parts store for around $100.  You may have to make electrical wires longer 
as the connection of clutch is rotated, or you can remove clutch and rotate 
electrical connection. Either way it is much cheaper than the $300 part. 

If you go with R-134A then use Ester oil, it has more compatibility with old 
mineral oil used on the R-12 systems. If you go with one of the propane/butane 
mixtures stay with mineral oil, it works much better with the propane.  

Regards,
Trampas 
  




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 2:21 PM
To: Mercedes mailing list
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12

26" does seam a little weak. Most places I have seen recommend at least 28" so 
there may still be a little air in the system.

Hook up a set of gauges and run the system paying attention to the low side. 
R-134 needs to cycle at about 18 PSI. You may need to wet the condensor with a 
garden hose to make the pressure drop far enough to cause the cycle switch to 
kick in.

If it's kicking in too high, then you need to adjust it or replace the switch 
and make it cycle less often.

Good luck

George

-- Original message -- 

> Were you using a venturi pump or piston pump? 
> Piston pump. The vacuum held with valve closed. 
> Brian from Columbia mo 
> 
> ___ 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: 
> http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net --- Begin Message ---
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For used

Re: [MBZ] R-12 engne running ?

[Trampas]

This is correct, the engine running thing is way of pulling vacuum with out
a stand alone pump. 

Regards,
Trampas 
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Henry Kolesnik
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 5:55 PM
To: Mercedes mailing list
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12 engne running ?

So from what you are said I don't need to run the engine to pull a total 
vacuum if I'm using an elelctric pump.
- Original Message - 
From: "Trampas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Mercedes mailing list'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12


> If you are using a vacuum pump the engine does not need to be running. If
> you are using the engine as the vacuum pump then it has to be running to
> suck the vacuum.
>
> Are we still miss communicating?
>
> Regards,
> Trampas Stern
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Craig McCluskey
> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 4:44 PM
> To: Mercedes mailing list
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12
>
> On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:48:44 -0400 "Trampas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Henry Kolesnik
>> > Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 10:40 AM
>> > To: Mercedes mailing list
>> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12
>> >
>> > Tram
>> >
>> > Do you keep the engnie running for an hour while evacuating?
>> >
>> > tnx
>> >
>> > 73
>> > Hank WD5JFR
>>
>> I kept it running till I could close off the valves on the gauges and
>> the pressure would not increase. For my application it only took 10-15
>> minutes, but just depends.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Trampas
>
> I think we have a lack of communication here.
>
> I think what's meant is:
>
> The engine is not running during the process; the vacuum pump is run
> continuously throughout the process.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> ___
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For new parts see www.buymbparts.com
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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> http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net 


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Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Trampas]

I have done it several times, there is no (or very little) hydrocarbon
containments as the engine is pulling vacuum on the system, thus flow is
from AC system. Of course if you are really worried you can use an inline
vacuum check valve. Propane is a form of hydro carbon, so if you use the
HC12A or Freeze 12 you are just adding more hydro carbons anyway. 

I have done this on several cars and it has worked great! Maybe not as great
as a stand alone vacuum pump, but better than nothing.   

Regards,
Trampas   
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barry Stark
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 6:13 PM
To: Mercedes mailing list
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12

Travas -
Now that's an original idea. Hook your A/C system up to manifold pressure to
evacuate the system or is this a diesel and you are using the engine's
vacuum pump. In any case I wonder how the A/C system likes the hydrocarbon
contaminants. What kind of system pressures have you achieved? I'm curious,
has anyone actually ever been successful doing this?

Barry

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Trampas
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:17 PM
To: 'Mercedes mailing list'
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12


If you are using a vacuum pump the engine does not need to be running. If
you are using the engine as the vacuum pump then it has to be running to
suck the vacuum.

Are we still miss communicating?

Regards,
Trampas Stern




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Craig McCluskey
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 4:44 PM
To: Mercedes mailing list
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:48:44 -0400 "Trampas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Henry Kolesnik
> > Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 10:40 AM
> > To: Mercedes mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12
> >
> > Tram
> >
> > Do you keep the engnie running for an hour while evacuating?
> >
> > tnx
> >
> > 73
> > Hank WD5JFR
>
> I kept it running till I could close off the valves on the gauges and
> the pressure would not increase. For my application it only took 10-15
> minutes, but just depends.
>
> Regards,
>
> Trampas

I think we have a lack of communication here.

I think what's meant is:

The engine is not running during the process; the vacuum pump is run
continuously throughout the process.



Craig

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Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Barry Stark]

Travas -
Now that's an original idea. Hook your A/C system up to manifold pressure to
evacuate the system or is this a diesel and you are using the engine's
vacuum pump. In any case I wonder how the A/C system likes the hydrocarbon
contaminants. What kind of system pressures have you achieved? I'm curious,
has anyone actually ever been successful doing this?

Barry

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Trampas
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 2:17 PM
To: 'Mercedes mailing list'
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12


If you are using a vacuum pump the engine does not need to be running. If
you are using the engine as the vacuum pump then it has to be running to
suck the vacuum.

Are we still miss communicating?

Regards,
Trampas Stern




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Craig McCluskey
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 4:44 PM
To: Mercedes mailing list
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:48:44 -0400 "Trampas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Henry Kolesnik
> > Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 10:40 AM
> > To: Mercedes mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12
> >
> > Tram
> >
> > Do you keep the engnie running for an hour while evacuating?
> >
> > tnx
> >
> > 73
> > Hank WD5JFR
>
> I kept it running till I could close off the valves on the gauges and
> the pressure would not increase. For my application it only took 10-15
> minutes, but just depends.
>
> Regards,
>
> Trampas

I think we have a lack of communication here.

I think what's meant is:

The engine is not running during the process; the vacuum pump is run
continuously throughout the process.



Craig

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Re: [MBZ] R-12 engne running ?

[Henry Kolesnik]

So from what you are said I don't need to run the engine to pull a total 
vacuum if I'm using an elelctric pump.
- Original Message - 
From: "Trampas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'Mercedes mailing list'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12



If you are using a vacuum pump the engine does not need to be running. If
you are using the engine as the vacuum pump then it has to be running to
suck the vacuum.

Are we still miss communicating?

Regards,
Trampas Stern




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Craig McCluskey
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 4:44 PM
To: Mercedes mailing list
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:48:44 -0400 "Trampas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Henry Kolesnik
> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 10:40 AM
> To: Mercedes mailing list
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12
>
> Tram
>
> Do you keep the engnie running for an hour while evacuating?
>
> tnx
>
> 73
> Hank WD5JFR

I kept it running till I could close off the valves on the gauges and
the pressure would not increase. For my application it only took 10-15
minutes, but just depends.

Regards,

Trampas


I think we have a lack of communication here.

I think what's meant is:

The engine is not running during the process; the vacuum pump is run
continuously throughout the process.



Craig

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Re: [MBZ] R-12

[Trampas]

If you are using a vacuum pump the engine does not need to be running. If
you are using the engine as the vacuum pump then it has to be running to
suck the vacuum. 

Are we still miss communicating? 

Regards,
Trampas Stern 
 
  
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Craig McCluskey
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 4:44 PM
To: Mercedes mailing list
Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:48:44 -0400 "Trampas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Henry Kolesnik
> > Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 10:40 AM
> > To: Mercedes mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] R-12
> >
> > Tram
> > 
> > Do you keep the engnie running for an hour while evacuating?
> > 
> > tnx
> >
> > 73
> > Hank WD5JFR
>
> I kept it running till I could close off the valves on the gauges and
> the pressure would not increase. For my application it only took 10-15
> minutes, but just depends. 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Trampas

I think we have a lack of communication here.

I think what's meant is:

The engine is not running during the process; the vacuum pump is run
continuously throughout the process.



Craig

___
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