Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Ihnen, David dih...@amazon.com wrote: But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point. Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example? To me mod_perl is just a platform like most other web stacks. As such ANY webapp written with ANY webstack that is designed and built for efficient horizontal scaling can be used. Take into account how to make the best use of a CDN, how to distribute database load (probably by partioning). -wjt
RE: Why people not using mod_perl
My first response is, “What makes you think they don’t?” But I must point out that at the scale that Amazon runs at, the technology used for front end web page rendering – as critical as it is – not what runs Amazon. Can you run service calls to caches and systems from a mason-based mod_perl interface? Load Amazon.com to find out. Does that mean its running on mod_perl? Debatable. There are so many systems that are loosely coupled – they respond to, accept data from, and otherwise interact with the web site end of the system – but they’re java and c++ as well as perl – and THOSE – in my opinion at least – are ‘what amazon runs on’. And when you’re talking about what amazon runs on - these ‘back end’ type systems (those which are not specifically involved in the rendering of a page for display via http) mod_perl is of course *not* what they use, because – even if they ARE written in perl – they don’t work in that particular paradigm. So is ‘what you run on’ defined by your web server page view controller software – or the software that actually runs the heart your business and processes? Hmm. Does Coca-Cola run on a factory, or on a delivery truck? David From: Brad Van Sickle [mailto:bvs7...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:32 PM To: mod_perl list Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point. Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 23:12 +0200, Torsten Foertsch wrote: On Thu 17 Sep 2009, Kiran Kumar wrote: There is also Padre (http://padre.perlide.org/) , You can write plugins and customize to your needs, there are already lots of plugins available http://search.cpan.org/search?query=padre%3A%3Apluginmode=all I have seen padre first time at the this year German perl workshop in February and tried it out a bit. What I miss is syntax highlighting and indentation for C, XS and Perl in one tool. Can padre handle this? Last time I looked it could not but that was half a year ago. I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned EPIC, the Perl plugin for Eclipse. It works really really well, at least as well as the Java version (although it can't do as much prediction as Java can because of the nature of static vs dynamic languages). Full subversion integration, bugzilla/trac/jira integration, regex debugger, good syntax highlighting, builtin Perl Tidy, Perl Critic etc etc and of course, you get support for other languages in the same application. There is a git plugin, but it is somewhat basic - it's the main reason I keep using subversion rather than git. I don't know how well it supports XS. If you've never tried it, I'd highly recommend it. Like all new environments, it takes a while to get used to, but it is worth making the effort. clint I am using Emacs for almost 20 years now but it lacks good XS support. Torsten
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 1:34 AM, Clinton Gormley cl...@traveljury.com wrote: I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned EPIC, the Perl plugin for Eclipse. It works really really well, at least as well as the Java version (although it can't do as much prediction as Java can because of the nature of static vs dynamic languages). The problem is necessarily dynamic vs static, but rather a language with a BNF compared to a language without. By BNF I actually mean a set of rules by which to parse (BNF actually being the rules in a particular format). Much of most modern IDE capabilities are hindered by not being able to parse the code. I am using Emacs for almost 20 years now but it lacks good XS support. Emacs has worked pretty well for me so far. I tried other IDEs, and I found most of the to be clunky and too window based. I find I'm most productive when I use Emacs. -wjt
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
Interesting. I did not even know about that #2 guy. What sort of hardware and OS are you running there? Igor On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com wrote: Well, actually Igor, we ended up writing eBay::API. We needed something that was able to extend many more web services that are internal-use only, that the public doesn't have access to. The fact that eBay web service data-types are probably the most complex out there, and they change often, we had to come up with a way to easily incorporate those changes by slurping up a giant WSDL, and auto-generating all the classes and data types, etc. But we do thank you for writing that. I knew of many API clients at the time that absolutely loved Net::eBay! In fact, I think at the time, the #2 API client (in listings) was perl-based, and using it. Cheers, - Jeff -- *From:* Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com *To:* Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com *Cc:* Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.com; mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:26:53 PM *Subject:* Re: Why people not using mod_perl You must have use my module Net::eBay, at some point, right? I wrote Net::eBay about 3 years ago. Igor On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com wrote: Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason? BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5). I may substitute the phrase More convenient for Easier in #3. I would also add ... #7) How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology? I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it. Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc. In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay). -- *From:* Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.com *To:* mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM *Subject:* Re: Why people not using mod_perl This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications. I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages. I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based. The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are: 1) Speed - I don't buy this at all 2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense. Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it. All of that is inherent in Java. It also helps that Java has OO built in. 3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true. 4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid 5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 6) Support A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here* which is a total shame. I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on. But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point. Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example? Phil Carmody wrote: --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com ichu...@gmail.com wrote: My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code. I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago. It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that shows work, unlike popular third party packages), etc. All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae. I can say two things: 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable and understandable (to me). In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output? e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia   (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm) faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε an integer M with 1
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
I left eBay a little over a year ago. When I was there, we were running on 32-bit, dual CPU HP blades, RHEL 4 for my platform. For the main Java platform, they were running 32-bit and 64-bit blades, on a flavor of Windows server. From: Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com To: Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com Cc: mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:52:38 AM Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl Interesting. I did not even know about that #2 guy. What sort of hardware and OS are you running there? Igor On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com wrote: Well, actually Igor, we ended up writing eBay::API. We needed something that was able to extend many more web services that are internal-use only, that the public doesn't have access to. The fact that eBay web service data-types are probably the most complex out there, and they change often, we had to come up with a way to easily incorporate those changes by slurping up a giant WSDL, and auto-generating all the classes and data types, etc. But we do thank you for writing that. I knew of many API clients at the time that absolutely loved Net::eBay! In fact, I think at the time, the #2 API client (in listings) was perl-based, and using it. Cheers, - Jeff From: Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com To: Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com Cc: Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.com; mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:26:53 PM Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl You must have use my module Net::eBay, at some point, right? I wrote Net::eBay about 3 years ago. Igor On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com wrote: Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason? BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5). I may substitute the phrase More convenient for Easier in #3. I would also add ... #7) How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology? I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it. Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc. In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay). From: Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.com To: mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications. I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages. I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based. The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are: 1) Speed - I don't buy this at all 2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense. Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it. All of that is inherent in Java. It also helps that Java has OO built in. 3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true. 4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid 5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 6) Support A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here* which is a total shame. I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on. But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point. Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example? Phil Carmody wrote: --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code. I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago. It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that shows work, unlike popular third party packages), etc. All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae. I can say two things: 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1
RE: Why people not using mod_perl
Rather than develop and contribute the community the ideas used in integrating (IDE-app server-version store-job management) for the perl environment… you stop using perl for that. This is *exactly* why people are not using mod_perl – perl lacks the investment given to these big projects that people ARE investing in with the java technology. There is nothing magical about java applied to this integration – perl could it it as well (or better, given lessons learned from the earlier take). Sorry if I sound a bit bitter, but this lack of investment in my favored technology frustrates me something fierce. You and your business/company may have the clout after 10 years of building large critical systems to have the resources to invest in actually DOING this, and you would rather move to java. (not that it’s the only reason to move to java, but it sounds like it’s the fallover difference) Sigh. David From: Steven Siebert [mailto:smsi...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:15 PM To: Jeff Nokes Cc: Brad Van Sickle; mod_perl list Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl I would also add, in addition to the frameworks, the availability of tools such as Netbeans and Eclipse IDE's are unmatched in the perl domain. These IDE's provide many high-level conveniences for enterprise developers, most notably in the realm of SOA (such as graphical building of BPEL and CEP). After nearly 10 years building and maintaining a critical government system, we are sadly migrating away from mod_perl to a J2EE based solution due to the success and growth of our mod_perl-based system. mod_perl and MySQL has served as well when we were taking on medium-to-large loads...however, as we are growing to a distributed (multi-site, multi-node) system, with tie-ins to numerous internal and external business systems across the enterprise, with development partners working at distributed factories...tools such as Netbeans and it's tight integration with Glassfish, SVN, and Hudson make building at this level a lot more manageable. I found that mod_perl for large-scale web applications works great, and if necessary horizontal scaling is achievable to sustain even more load. However, when dealing with complex SOA architectures, and the management of business workflows...the framework support and tools to accomplish this just aren't there in perl. Add to this Jeff's comment on the availability of high caliber perl engineers...we are almost forced to make this decision. We will continue to use mod_perl for other uses, such as our custom SCM/ALM system we built over the years...but the main product is migrating. On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.commailto:jeff_no...@yahoo.com wrote: Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason? BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5). I may substitute the phrase More convenient for Easier in #3. I would also add ... #7) How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology? I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it. Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.comhttp://worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.comhttp://global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.comhttp://dealfinder.ebay.com, etc. In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay). From: Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.commailto:bvs7...@gmail.com To: mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.orgmailto:modperl@perl.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications. I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages. I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based. The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are: 1) Speed - I don't buy this at all 2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense. Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it. All of that is inherent in Java. It also helps that Java has OO built in. 3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true. 4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid 5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Ihnen, David dih...@amazon.com wrote: Rather than develop and contribute the community the ideas used in integrating (IDE-app server-version store-job management) for the perl environment… you stop using perl for that. This is **exactly** why people are not using mod_perl – perl lacks the investment given to these big projects that people ARE investing in with the java technology. People are using mod_perl, just not as much as some of us would like. I am now satisfied that mod_perl is a very viable system with devoted following. i
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
Jeff Horwitz is working on mod_parrot and mod_perl6 mod_parrot info: http://www.parrot.org/mod_parrot Jeffs blog: http://www.smashing.org/jeff/ It's coming along, but currently it's tough to actually do much that's useful without things like DBI, or Apache::Request. at least that's where it was at YAPC. Adam Boysenberry Payne wrote: I wonder if this will still be the case with Parrot and Perl 6? I've read up on it a bit and with being able to compile multiple languages exposing their libraries to each other it would seem more programmers might be tempted into using Perl because of it's massive library base. What are the plans for mod_perl with perl 6? Thanks, Boysenberry Payne On Sep 16, 2009, at 9:31 PM, Jeff Peng wrote: from what you all stated, does it mean mod_perl is really outmoded comparing to Java? Here Java programmer is cheaper than mod_perl developer. But if mp can get better performance, we may consider it as first choice. Regards, Jeff.
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
Just to add a little bit. In my experience, perl programming requires a certain type of mind. I cannot define it very precisely, but not everyone can think in perl. Those who can, basically, have a huge advantage over those who cannot, but that naturally limits perl adoption somewhat. I think that more people can think in java than in perl. I would hope that as long as use of perl is substantial, it will remain a viable platform that I can enjoy and use to live and make money. I do not care if perl is very popular, or just popular, I will be happy as long as it is viable. Igor
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
Emacs, Vim, Komodo, and others are equally as capable in the Perl domain. What you don't have as much of in the Perl domain is the commercial support for those tools, with the exception of ActiveState. I just pulled down the latest copy of Komodo and took it for a spin; though however many times I try out the GUI based editors I end up going back to cli based tools because they are so much more performant when you've been using them a while and have customized them for your particular needs. There is also Padre (http://padre.perlide.org/) , You can write plugins and customize to your needs, there are already lots of plugins available http://search.cpan.org/search?query=padre%3A%3Apluginmode=all
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Thu 17 Sep 2009, Kiran Kumar wrote: There is also Padre (http://padre.perlide.org/) , You can write plugins and customize to your needs, there are already lots of plugins available http://search.cpan.org/search?query=padre%3A%3Apluginmode=all I have seen padre first time at the this year German perl workshop in February and tried it out a bit. What I miss is syntax highlighting and indentation for C, XS and Perl in one tool. Can padre handle this? Last time I looked it could not but that was half a year ago. I am using Emacs for almost 20 years now but it lacks good XS support. Torsten -- Need professional mod_perl support? Just hire me: torsten.foert...@gmx.net
RE: Why people not using mod_perl
Perhaps it could in some portion be quantified as The ability to think about a program without the ide/language structure suggesting paths for you. The possibilities are infinite. I can imagine that would be a problem for many. David From: Igor Chudov [mailto:ichu...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:22 PM Cc: mod_perl list Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl Just to add a little bit. In my experience, perl programming requires a certain type of mind. I cannot define it very precisely, but not everyone can think in perl. Those who can, basically, have a huge advantage over those who cannot, but that naturally limits perl adoption somewhat. I think that more people can think in java than in perl. I would hope that as long as use of perl is substantial, it will remain a viable platform that I can enjoy and use to live and make money. I do not care if perl is very popular, or just popular, I will be happy as long as it is viable. Igor
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
Add to this Jeff's comment on the availability of high caliber perl engineers...we are almost forced to make this decision. Maybe you aren't looking in the right places: http://jobs.perl.org YAPC::* This email list The Perl Mongers groups Dice, Craigslist, Monster, etc. are great places to find Java programmers but bad places to find Perl programmers. In Silicon Valley, you can usually shake a tree and a couple of Java programmers will fall out.. ;) I agree with you for the typical environment...however, our project is not government owned but comes with a current/updated security clearance requirement - significantly reducing the available pool. Our situation is unique in that requirement but I it reduces the pool of eligible programmers across all languages the same (although I have no research to back up this claim). So...if there are 1:1000 quality perl:java engineers our ratio stays the same...but the pool is that much smaller.
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
Torsten Foertsch wrote: On Thu 17 Sep 2009, Kiran Kumar wrote: I have seen padre first time at the this year German perl workshop in February and tried it out a bit. What I miss is syntax highlighting and indentation for C, XS and Perl in one tool. Can padre handle this? Last time I looked it could not but that was half a year ago. I am using Emacs for almost 20 years now but it lacks good XS support. Padre has been advancing rapidly over the last 6 months or so. I haven't actually used it, but the syntax highlighting for perl is supposed to be the best there is in any editor (since it uses PPI) I don't know about XS or C support, but padre is pluggable, and they are always looking for more help. #padre on irc.perl.org Adam
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
Just was curious, is CGI running with perl6 most likely the same as Java with JVM? Regards, Jeff Peng
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:38:11 + modperl[at]att.net wrote: 3) capacity/scalable mod_perl is very scalable --- I mean, one can properly config a single server to handle dynamic content for 200K daily unique IPs. PHP may end up with just 100K and servlet ends up at around 50K. I'm just curious, is this performance data still true in today? We have a new project building a website for a goverment which should handle lots of transportation data, servlet and modperl are two choices. So I googled and found this old message. http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/modperl/advocacy/75311
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:52 AM, Jeff Pang pa...@vfemail.net wrote: I'm just curious, is this performance data still true in today? We have a new project building a website for a goverment which should handle lots of transportation data, servlet and modperl are two choices. I don't know what the source of that data was. However, mod_perl is basically just Perl, and Perl is very fast. In most of the language benchmarks I've seen, Perl comes out a little ahead of PHP and somewhat behind Java. In real-world websites though, Perl often ends up being faster than Java because of slow Java web frameworks and the overly-abstract designs they encourage. You can certainly succeed at building large websites with either Perl or Java. I'd suggest you consider who will be doing the work and what the expenses will be. If you decide to use Java, go with open source. The commercial frameworks are slow and not worth the price. - Perrin
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code. I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago. It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that shows work, unlike popular third party packages), etc. All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae. I can say two things: 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable and understandable (to me). If I was to make a choice again, I would go with mod_perl again. With Perl, I can stand on the shoulders of giants like Lincoln etc, and use the brilliant stuff they provided to serve my users. i
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code. I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago. It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that shows work, unlike popular third party packages), etc. All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae. I can say two things: 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable and understandable (to me). In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output? e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia   (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm) faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N Pollard's p − 1 algorithm Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417. Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313. Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†v • d • e AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer · Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up. Phil
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications. I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages. I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based. The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are: 1) Speed - I don't buy this at all 2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense. Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it. All of that is inherent in Java. It also helps that Java has OO built in. 3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true. 4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid 5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 6) Support A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here* which is a total shame. I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on. But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point. Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example? Phil Carmody wrote: --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code. I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago. It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that shows work, unlike popular third party packages), etc. All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae. I can say two things: 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable and understandable (to me). In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output? e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia   (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm) faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N Pollard's p − 1 algorithm Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417. Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313. Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†v • d • e AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer · Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up. Phil
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:32 AM, Perrin Harkins phark...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know what the source of that data was. However, mod_perl is basically just Perl, and Perl is very fast. I think the more exact statement should be, mod_perl is compiled perl, mod_perl is very fast. But perl CGI...I must say it's very slow. Jenn.
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Jenn G. practicalp...@gmail.com wrote: I think the more exact statement should be, mod_perl is compiled perl, mod_perl is very fast. But perl CGI...I must say it's very slow. Well, you can say CGI is slow, but Perl CGI is very fast compared to the alternatives. Have you ever tried Java CGI? Or PHP CGI? They're not fast. Also, I don't like to tell people that mod_perl is compiled because it's really no more compiled than any other perl script. If you want to be precise, you could say mod_perl is a persistent daemon for running perl code, just like servlets are a persistent daemon for running Java. - Perrin
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Perrin Harkins phark...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Jenn G. practicalp...@gmail.com wrote: I think the more exact statement should be, mod_perl is compiled perl, mod_perl is very fast. But perl CGI...I must say it's very slow. Well, you can say CGI is slow, but Perl CGI is very fast compared to the alternatives. Have you ever tried Java CGI? Or PHP CGI? They're not fast. but nobody run Java or PHP as CGI. the only thing I heard is somebody run php as fastcgi under lighttpd. Also, I don't like to tell people that mod_perl is compiled because it's really no more compiled than any other perl script. mod_perl loads and compiles perl scripts only once, but CGI loads and compiles them every time for each request. Am I right? thanks.
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason? BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5). I may substitute the phrase More convenient for Easier in #3. I would also add ... #7) How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology? I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it. Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc. In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay). From: Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.com To: mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications. I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages. I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based. The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are: 1) Speed - I don't buy this at all 2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense. Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it. All of that is inherent in Java. It also helps that Java has OO built in. 3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true. 4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid 5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 6) Support A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here* which is a total shame. I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on. But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point. Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example? Phil Carmody wrote: --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code. I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago. It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that shows work, unlike popular third party packages), etc. All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae. I can say two things: 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable and understandable (to me). In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output? e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia   (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm) faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N Pollard's p − 1 algorithm Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417. Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313. Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†v • d • e AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer · Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up. Phil
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
I would also add, in addition to the frameworks, the availability of tools such as Netbeans and Eclipse IDE's are unmatched in the perl domain. These IDE's provide many high-level conveniences for enterprise developers, most notably in the realm of SOA (such as graphical building of BPEL and CEP). After nearly 10 years building and maintaining a critical government system, we are sadly migrating away from mod_perl to a J2EE based solution due to the success and growth of our mod_perl-based system. mod_perl and MySQL has served as well when we were taking on medium-to-large loads...however, as we are growing to a distributed (multi-site, multi-node) system, with tie-ins to numerous internal and external business systems across the enterprise, with development partners working at distributed factories...tools such as Netbeans and it's tight integration with Glassfish, SVN, and Hudson make building at this level a lot more manageable. I found that mod_perl for large-scale web applications works great, and if necessary horizontal scaling is achievable to sustain even more load. However, when dealing with complex SOA architectures, and the management of business workflows...the framework support and tools to accomplish this just aren't there in perl. Add to this Jeff's comment on the availability of high caliber perl engineers...we are almost forced to make this decision. We will continue to use mod_perl for other uses, such as our custom SCM/ALM system we built over the years...but the main product is migrating. On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com wrote: Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason? BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5). I may substitute the phrase More convenient for Easier in #3. I would also add ... #7) How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology? I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it. Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc. In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay). -- *From:* Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.com *To:* mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM *Subject:* Re: Why people not using mod_perl This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications. I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages. I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based. The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are: 1) Speed - I don't buy this at all 2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense. Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it. All of that is inherent in Java. It also helps that Java has OO built in. 3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true. 4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid 5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 6) Support A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here* which is a total shame. I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on. But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point. Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example? Phil Carmody wrote: --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com ichu...@gmail.com wrote: My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code. I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago. It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that shows work, unlike popular third party packages), etc. All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae. I can say two things: 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable and understandable (to me
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
You must have use my module Net::eBay, at some point, right? I wrote Net::eBay about 3 years ago. Igor On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com wrote: Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason? BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5). I may substitute the phrase More convenient for Easier in #3. I would also add ... #7) How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology? I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it. Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc. In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay). -- *From:* Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.com *To:* mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM *Subject:* Re: Why people not using mod_perl This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications. I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages. I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based. The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are: 1) Speed - I don't buy this at all 2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense. Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it. All of that is inherent in Java. It also helps that Java has OO built in. 3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true. 4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid 5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 6) Support A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here* which is a total shame. I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on. But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point. Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example? Phil Carmody wrote: --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com ichu...@gmail.com wrote: My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code. I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago. It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that shows work, unlike popular third party packages), etc. All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae. I can say two things: 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable and understandable (to me). In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output? e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia   (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm) faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N Pollard's p − 1 algorithm Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417. Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313. Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†v • d • e AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer · Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up. Phil
Re: Why people not using mod_perl
Well, actually Igor, we ended up writing eBay::API. We needed something that was able to extend many more web services that are internal-use only, that the public doesn't have access to. The fact that eBay web service data-types are probably the most complex out there, and they change often, we had to come up with a way to easily incorporate those changes by slurping up a giant WSDL, and auto-generating all the classes and data types, etc. But we do thank you for writing that. I knew of many API clients at the time that absolutely loved Net::eBay! In fact, I think at the time, the #2 API client (in listings) was perl-based, and using it. Cheers, - Jeff From: Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com To: Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com Cc: Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.com; mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:26:53 PM Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl You must have use my module Net::eBay, at some point, right? I wrote Net::eBay about 3 years ago. Igor On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Nokes jeff_no...@yahoo.com wrote: Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason? BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5). I may substitute the phrase More convenient for Easier in #3. I would also add ... #7) How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology? I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it. Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc. In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay). From: Brad Van Sickle bvs7...@gmail.com To: mod_perl list modperl@perl.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications. I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages. I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based. The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are: 1) Speed - I don't buy this at all 2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense. Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it. All of that is inherent in Java. It also helps that Java has OO built in. 3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true. 4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid 5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 6) Support A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here* which is a total shame. I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on. But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point. Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example? Phil Carmody wrote: --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code. I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago. It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that shows work, unlike popular third party packages), etc. All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae. I can say two things: 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable and understandable (to me). In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output? e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia   (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm) faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N Pollard's p − 1 algorithm Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417. Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313. Eric
