Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Can anyone tell me where I can find the silent reading rates per grade level Pat Kimathi to be nobody but yourself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you like everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting. e.e. cummings On Jul 9, 2007, at 4:20 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Silent reading rates are supposed to be faster than oral rates. There are nor ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
The QRI-4 manual has them...I would get them for you but I can't get into my room right now...they are cleaning! Jennifer Maryland In a message dated 7/17/2007 5:05:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can anyone tell me where I can find the silent reading rates per grade level Pat Kimathi ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I think it is a reasonable reflection of silent reading, but we simply cannot argue that they are the same. In reality though, it is what we have to work with and we have to use data we can access. Lori On 7/14/07 2:01 PM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess I'm confused here. In order to use oral reading to get some clues about where the child is having trouble reading in general, one is operating under the assumption that what a reader does when reading orally reflects how he/she reads when reading silently. Goodman's Miscue Analysis certainly operates under this assumption. The miscues that a reader makes when reading orally reflect the processes that a reader uses when reading silently. Oral reading is a reflection of silent reading. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehe nsion.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Renee Sent: Sat 7/14/2007 3:08 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim On Jul 14, 2007, at 8:42 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Renee -- in your note below you say: If a student cannot reasonably discuss what he/she read, then I would have him/her read to me to see what I could find out. When you have your student read to you, isn't this using oral reading to assess silent reading performance? Uh. no... I would be using oral reading to get some clues about where the child is having trouble reading, in general. But this is different from the original discussion, too, which as I recall said that a child who reads poorly orally probably reads poorly silently and that we can assess a student's silent reading ability and proficiency by listening to him or her read orally. I don't agree with that, for reasons which have come up in this discussion. Plus, I have to take issue with the term silent reading performance because I don't consider silent reading to be a performance but that's just me. Renee ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Lori Jackson District Literacy Coach Mentor Todd County School District Box 87 Mission SD 57555 http:www.tcsdk12.org ph. 605.856.2211 Literacies for All Summer Institute Literate Lives: A Human Right July 12-15, 2007 Louisville, Kentucky http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Tim, I had that same experience earlier this spring. Nothing like the IRS to instill a bit of fear in the heart! I just finished Our Lady of The Forest, a book I was disappointed in and deeply challenged by. There is a great deal of unpunctuated and unattributed dialogue. Add to that, the strong collection to the Catholic faith and to the bible, my knowledge of both is pretty surface level, and I just kept letting go of the storyline. It is not a terribly long book, but decidedly not the airport read I needed. I could not connect and I had to attend to my own inner voice consistently. On the other hand, I plunged right into The Memory Keeper's Daughter somewhere over Illinois and will soon finish it. The 'words; in each of these texts are basically the same, and the second book is much denser. Automaticity did not impact my read, more a general sense of cluelessness. ;-( Lori On 7/14/07 9:08 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maxine: As you can probably tell, I am a nut about poetry, readers theater and other authentic performance material for developing fluency. However, rereading for the purpose of deepening understanding is certainly an authentic purpose. Just yesterday, I found myself reading and rereading the 3 page letter I received from the IRS -- repeated reading for authentic reasons? Yes! :) Best wishes, Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 6:59 PM To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Dr. Rasinski, I appreciate so much being able to talk to you directly. My first issue in reading all of the Mosaic responses and questions concerns the definition of fluency from your perspective. Secondly, I would like to talk about a child that I work with. She is entering fourth grade. She reads (DRA level 28) She reads with meaning on a literal level, but needs guidance and support with inference. Her decoding is in many cases hesitant. I have found that rereading is very helpful, but the rereading we do is not necessarily authentic. I just explain to her that by rereading something, she will become a more fluent reader and she does it and does it well. She appears to feel really good about rereading something better each time she does it. How important is it for rereading to be for authentic purposes such as reader's theater etc.? If a child understands the purpose, isn't that enough? Thank you, Maxine ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Lori Jackson District Literacy Coach Mentor Todd County School District Box 87 Mission SD 57555 http:www.tcsdk12.org ph. 605.856.2211 Literacies for All Summer Institute Literate Lives: A Human Right July 12-15, 2007 Louisville, Kentucky http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Bill: I agree that the match between oral and silent reading is not perfect, not close to perfect. But, when we are trying our best to determine how a child reads and what strategies he or she employs during reading, oral reading needs to be one of the ways we try to make sense of the reading. Is it the only way? Of course not. But it is one way. And if we accept that it is one way to gain understanding of a student's silent reading, then we have to accept that there is a relationship between oral and silent reading. BTW. I can hear the voices of authors while reading. I can certainly hear the passion of the various postings sent in response to my own comments.Moreover, I found myself reading the various postings aloud, repeatedly and in different ways to get at the voice of the writer. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Roberts Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 6:29 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Goodman's Miscue Analysis certainly operates under this assumption. The miscues that a reader makes when reading orally reflect the processes that a reader uses when reading silently. Oral reading is a reflection of silent reading. But often when a kid reads aloud, he or she can hear the miscue and can correct the error. They don't have an inner voice when reading silently so they don't hear the miscue in their heads... Bill ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
In a message dated 7/15/2007 6:29:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They don't have an inner voice when reading silently so they don't hear the miscue in their heads... I do. Nancy Creech ** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Renee and Beverlee: Thanks for your elaborate and eloquent responses. I certainly agree with the frustration that you and other teachers face daily and must deal with. I am frustrated myself by the same concerns you raise. As you indicated, I did make the statement that oral reading is an indicator of silent reading. You ask how do we know that? I think there is abundance of research that has shown this to be the case - a correlation between the two -- not a perfect correlation, but a significant and one substantial enough that we continue to use oral reading to assess and make inferences about silent reading. Indeed, Ken and Yetta's miscue analysis has taken analysis of oral reading to a very sophisticated and informed level. My point in all this was just to make the case that I believe oral reading does have a place in the curriculum. Not the old fashion round robin oral reading, but authentic, engaging uses of oral reading. And, in my opinion, because of the relationship between oral and silent reading, authentic and engaging use of and instruction in oral reading will have a positive impact on students' silent reading. I have written too much about this already and readers are probably sick of hearing from me. So I will try to keep quiet for now. If I have offended anyone with any of my comments, I do apologize and ask your forgiveness. It was not my intent. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Beverlee Paul Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 6:13 PM To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Tim, If you remember back to how this started, you made this statement: ... It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. I took exception to this statement with my question, How can we possibly know this? Renee - I thought your explanation (which I deleted) clarified and elaborated on your thinking, which I obviously strongly agreed with. But I think your original cryptic question really best said it all. I can readily INFER that you thought the logic of the original remark was a bit stretched. So, from my perspective, How can we possibly know this? best expressed the entire argument in a nutshell. Here is the true point of departure, from my viewpoint. One professional makes a single assumption (that readers who read in a slow and labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way silently) and, from that assumption (which he believes to be true, but which others may or may not) generates an enormous set of ifso beliefs. Now I think many of us could buy his argument if he stated it as possibly and go ahead and do authentic readings and rereadings and the other wonderful techniques that Dr. Rasinski recommends. But, as a profession, it seems to me that this is yet another example of where we are with Reading First and other issues in our nation at this time. Renee's question is a seemingly simple and straightforward question. But, underneath that question, is an enormous statement. I'm trying not to make much ado about nothing, but I think this exchange between Renee and Tim is sympomatic of a much, much larger issue. The following isn't the best example; the original question is. But. . . I would liken Dr. Rasinski's argument to the same problematic argument made by basal reader enthusiasts in the 50s and programmed reader enthusiastics in the late 60s, early 70s and the Reading First/Engelman enthusiasts of the early 21st Century folk-- that was questioned by Kenneth Goodman until he put a book into real children's hands and really looked and listened to what he saw and heard. And then Holdaway and Clay and Sulzby and Teale and Taylor...well, you get the point. Not to lose track of my thinking, however, is that what all these folk saw was that answers will vary is the only true, inescapable answer to how children become literate. The basal reader folk believed they knew precisely how children learned to read; they learned more and more words which the basal taught them. Further, they learned ALL the words that the basal taught them (oops!) and that they learned NO OTHER WORDS (really big oops!) than what the basal taught them. The programmed reader folk believed the same thing to be true, just with what they called word families and phonics generalizations and phonics. (By the way, thattime period is when most of Engleman's work was written.) Now, with the Reading First movement, we have a new
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I think we all have an inner voice we just don't always know how to identify it or what to do with it. Since reading Mosaic I've had to retrain myself to listen for that voice and how it affects my comprehension or lack thereof. And I continue to struggle with this. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada I do. Nancy Creech They don't have an inner voice when reading silently so they don't hear the miscue in their heads... ** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Something I've observed about oral reading is that kids seemed to be helped when they read a piece of writing aloud that they've written. Hearing it aloud, either read by them or by someone else, helps them understand how it may sound to someone else. Just wondering how this relates to the discussion at hand... Hmmm... Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada Goodman's Miscue Analysis certainly operates under this assumption. The miscues that a reader makes when reading orally reflect the processes that a reader uses when reading silently. Oral reading is a reflection of silent reading. But often when a kid reads aloud, he or she can hear the miscue and can correct the error. They don't have an inner voice when reading silently so they don't hear the miscue in their heads... Bill ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I guess it depends on what I am reading. When I am reading a simple novel, I am almost unaware of the words. I tend to read in pictures. If I am studying a book, then I may be more aware, but the only time I hear any voice is when I actually think about it. Then it interrupts the flow of my reading. Kim On 7/15/07, Waingort Jimenez, Elisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we all have an inner voice we just don't always know how to identify it or what to do with it. Since reading Mosaic I've had to retrain myself to listen for that voice and how it affects my comprehension or lack thereof. And I continue to struggle with this. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada I do. Nancy Creech They don't have an inner voice when reading silently so they don't hear the miscue in their heads... ** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Kim --- Kimberlee Hannan Department Chair Sequoia Middle School Fresno, California 93702 Laugh when you can, apologize when you should, let go of what you can't change, kiss slowly, play hard, forgive quickly, take chances, give everything, have no regrets.. Life's too short to be anything but happy. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I agree. Paying attention to your inner voice interrupts the flow of your reading but it also helps you comprehend better. I think we, the adults, are so unused to doing this that it feels unnatural. I would like to keep at it and see if it does make a difference. But, I haven't reached this goal yet. It's too easy to revert to familiar ways. I want to try to do more of that this year because I notice that when I read a novel I often read it too fast. I know that I should stop more often to think about my reading. If I was involved in a reading group, time is a factor here, I think I would be more cautious about doing this. What do others of you think? Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada but the only time I hear any voice is when I actually think about it. Then it interrupts the flow of my reading. Kim ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
If I am a proficient reader, reading aesthetically, why would I want to slow down? I think we are so used to hearing about kids that struggle with reading, that we don't take into consideration the proficient reader. Many of my kids are proficient aesthetically, but not efferently. If I were studying the book for a book club, then sure, I would slow down naturally. I would encourage my kids too as well. We read for different purposes, in different ways.If you know you miss stuff, then you are right to slow down. I, personally, would be very frustrated at anyone who tried to slow me down. I would just quit reading. Kim On 7/15/07, Waingort Jimenez, Elisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. Paying attention to your inner voice interrupts the flow of your reading but it also helps you comprehend better. I think we, the adults, are so unused to doing this that it feels unnatural. I would like to keep at it and see if it does make a difference. But, I haven't reached this goal yet. It's too easy to revert to familiar ways. I want to try to do more of that this year because I notice that when I read a novel I often read it too fast. I know that I should stop more often to think about my reading. If I was involved in a reading group, time is a factor here, I think I would be more cautious about doing this. What do others of you think? Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada but the only time I hear any voice is when I actually think about it. Then it interrupts the flow of my reading. Kim ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Kim --- Kimberlee Hannan Department Chair Sequoia Middle School Fresno, California 93702 Laugh when you can, apologize when you should, let go of what you can't change, kiss slowly, play hard, forgive quickly, take chances, give everything, have no regrets.. Life's too short to be anything but happy. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim I guess it depends on what I am reading. When I am reading a simple novel, I am almost unaware of the words. I tend to read in pictures. If I am studying a book, then I may be more aware, but the only time I hear any voice is when I actually think about it. Then it interrupts the flow of my reading. Kim . I also watch a novel or short story in my head. I'm not aware of the words as much as the images and ideas, but when I made the comment about not being able to hear a voice, I was referring to students. Many kids don't have a voice in their heads (let alone visualize anything) and the words they read are just thatwords. Words without meaning, words without purpose. I always tell my kids how previous teachers have told them to read chapter 3 for homework, so they go home and read the chapter, but what happens the next day when the teacher goes over the chapter? No one remembers anything. That's because they confuse sounding out the words for reading and didn't know to understand the chapter. If their teacher had said, Comprehend chapter 3 for homework, they would have read differently. Fluency gives the kids that meaning. Whether it's oral or mental, fluency gives the words meaning...and for that reason, fluency is important. The average speaking voice is about 250 words a minute and kids have no problem hearing someone speak at 250 wpm, so why can't they listen to words they read orally at 250 wpm? Or for that matter at least 250 wpm mentally? My research has shown that most kids read mentally at about double their oral speed. Taking something from Nancy Atwell, she had signs saying Do NOT NOT Step on the Grass showing how real readers don't read every single word, but read for meaning. I use the same idea, but I take it a little further. I flash it at the kids and they read the sign. I have someone timing the students reading and it usually takes about a second to read. We then do the math6 words a second...or 360 words a minute! Once the kids realize they CAN read that fast, many improve on speed, accuracy, and comprehension. They don't all read at 360 words a minute, but they are closer with some going from 60 wpm to over 120, while others go from 250 up to 600 or more! Of course, this is silent speed and they are not reading every single word, but they are reading for MEANING. I can read a GOOSEBUMPS book in less than 30 minutes, but it's at a lower reading level. Give me something at college level, and I'll be much slower. But there are many factors to consider: reading levels, color of paper, size of letters, author's purpose, reader's purpose, reader's eyesight, previous teachers, etc. I've been watching the emails and many seem to be so wrapped up in the minutae of fluency that we have forgotten the whole point of fluency which is comprehension. I was reminded of the MOT2 discussions which have pointed out that we get so wrapped up in the strategies that we forget the main point, comprehension. Fluency is a tool, but it's just one tool in the toolbox of comprehension. Bill ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
BTW. I can hear the voices of authors while reading. I can certainly hear the passion of the various postings sent in response to my own comments. Moreover, I found myself reading the various postings aloud, repeatedly and in different ways to get at the voice of the writer. ** Absolutely true. Which is why I try to reread my posts a couple of times before pressing send. It is easy to become so passionate about an issue that we do not notice the tone in our message, and I certainly don't want to offend people. We are all here on this list for the same reason; we are passionate teachers committed to authentic comprehension instruction and teaching practices. Enjoy the day! It is BEAUTIFUL here in Chicago! Lisa 2/3 IL Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545433 ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I probably should have said that I would slow down if I found my mind wandering or if my comprehension was breaking down. Although I thought I did say that...I wouldn't slow down and think about what I was reading if I was engaged and everything else was going OK. I would not force anyone else to slow down unless it seemed like they needed to. As someone else said, I would use whatever evidence I had to suggest this to the reader I was working with. In the post that you responded to I was talking about myself. I think there are times when I need to slow down and I don't. That was the gist of my message. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada If I am a proficient reader, reading aesthetically, why would I want to slow down? I think we are so used to hearing about kids that struggle with reading, that we don't take into consideration the proficient reader. Many of my kids are proficient aesthetically, but not efferently. If I were studying the book for a book club, then sure, I would slow down naturally. I would encourage my kids too as well. We read for different purposes, in different ways.If you know you miss stuff, then you are right to slow down. I, personally, would be very frustrated at anyone who tried to slow me down. I would just quit reading. Kim ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
My point in all this was just to make the case that I believe oral reading does have a place in the curriculum. Not the old fashion round robin oral reading, but authentic, engaging uses of oral reading. And, in my opinion, because of the RELATIONSHIP between oral and silent reading, authentic and engaging use of and instruction in oral reading will have a positive impact on students' silent reading. And on this, we could hardly agree more! And that's why I greatly enjoy your fluency book! _ http://newlivehotmail.com ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I've been watching the emails and many seem to be so wrapped up in the minutae of fluency that WE HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT THE WHOLE POINT OF FLUENCY IS COMPREHENSION. Fluency is a tool, but it's just one tool in the toolbox of comprehension. Bill Bill - I strongly agree with your statement, especially the last sentence. But I also have an opinion of why some of us seem so hypersensitive to the fluency minutae. My bias says that the reason we seem to overreact to statements RE fluency is . . . we are simply responding to some of the NRP's statements in which THEY have forgotten the whole point of fluency which is comprehension. Rather than fluency being a strategic tool as you describe, it's become a SUBJECT! Okay, now I'll desist! Bev _ http://liveearth.msn.com ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Nora -- I would have kids work mostly at their instructional level. But would also from time to time have them try more challenging materials. Since Steve Stahl has been mentioned so often, his work on repeated readings found that students made more progress when doing repeated readings on materials that approached and were at their frustration levels.We chatted about this several times, and I think we came to realize that the reason students could handle frustration level material was that the material was not terribly long and that they had a chance to practice it. I know for myself, if I were asked to read a really difficult piece without an opportunity to practice I would have trouble with it. But, give me the opportunity to rehearse and I should be able to read it fluently and meaningfully. So, that's my take on your query. Best regards, Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nora Lichtenstein Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 6:57 PM To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Tim, I also attended the Columbia Teacher's College Summer Reading Institute. Kylene Beers gave a mini-session on fluency and supported what you say about repeated reading. I plan on doing this with my Basic Skills middle school students in the fall but need to know whether students should be doing the the repeated reading with passages that are on their independent reading level. Thanks for clarifying this. Also, thanks for contributing to this discussion list. We are very lucky to have your input. Nora --- Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 6:16:51 PM EDT Actually you can find the phrases in either my book The Fluent Reader, or free at my website www.timrasinski.com They are based on Fry's instant word list and are a great way to practice phrasing and high frequency words at the same time Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtoco mpr ehension.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon 7/9/2007 5:55 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Tim - I just spent a week at Columbia's Teachers College in Reading Workshop, and in my morning session we were working on strategies for, among other things, fluency. Someone working in my small group mentioned that you had a text in which you provide phrases for children to read to support increasing their fluency. Would you please identify which of your texts includes these phrases? Thank you. Linda -- Original message -- From: RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. The relationship between oral and silent reading is very strong. That is why we use oral reading as a way to assess overall reading -- including silent reading. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Waingort Jimenez, Elisa Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:55 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Except it may not be slow and halting when they read silently. Just a thought. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada Are we really doing children a favor and ignoring their slow, halting, labored reading in the primary grades because they seem to be understanding what they read? Just thinking out loud here. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Kim -- you're right silent reading is faster than oral reading. Silent reading also is correlated with oral reading -- kids who read more quickly orally are also the ones who read more quickly silently, and kids who reading more slowly orally also read more slowly when reading silently. My point is that we can reliably judge and infer silent reading rates by looking at oral reading rates. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 7:21 PM To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Silent reading rates are supposed to be faster than oral rates. There are norms set for that too...I know the QRI 4 has them. The ranges are wide to allow for students to adjust their rates when they meet challenging texts. Jennifer Maryland In a message dated 7/9/2007 6:03:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, since most of the reading we do in life is silent, and if fluency needs to be that important, timing a silent read makes great sense. I just don't know how you would differentiate that from testing...especially with the pressure involved. KIm ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Renee -- in your note below you say: If a student cannot reasonably discuss what he/she read, then I would have him/her read to me to see what I could find out. When you have your student read to you, isn't this using oral reading to assess silent reading performance? Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Renee Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:00 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim On Jul 11, 2007, at 6:32 PM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Renee: I admire your focus on comprehension. However, if you have a student who is having difficulty comprehending, how do you determine the source of the difficulty? . snip.. Without knowing the source of the difficulty, instruction to meet the source of the difficulty is a challenge at best. I never said I don't look for the source of the difficulty. What I said is that I don't use oral reading skills to assess silent reading skills. If a student has a reasonable sense of what he is reading but is not a great oral reader, I do not assume that he/she is not a good silent reader. If a student cannot reasonably discuss what he/she read, then I would have him/her read to me to see what I could find out. But I don't assume that a poor oral reader is a poor silent reader. Here is what I said: I have never used oral reading skills to assess silent reading. In fact, I don't assess silent reading in the first place. What I assess is comprehension. If I am required to give students a score or grade for fluency or other reading skills/tools, I do it, but not by choice. To me, reading is making meaning. Making meaning is exemplified by how well a student is able to discuss or write about what he or she has read. Renee El fin de toda educacion debe ser seguramente el servicio a otros. ~ Cesar Chavez ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I guess I'm confused here. In order to use oral reading to get some clues about where the child is having trouble reading in general, one is operating under the assumption that what a reader does when reading orally reflects how he/she reads when reading silently. Goodman's Miscue Analysis certainly operates under this assumption. The miscues that a reader makes when reading orally reflect the processes that a reader uses when reading silently. Oral reading is a reflection of silent reading. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Renee Sent: Sat 7/14/2007 3:08 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim On Jul 14, 2007, at 8:42 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Renee -- in your note below you say: If a student cannot reasonably discuss what he/she read, then I would have him/her read to me to see what I could find out. When you have your student read to you, isn't this using oral reading to assess silent reading performance? Uh. no... I would be using oral reading to get some clues about where the child is having trouble reading, in general. But this is different from the original discussion, too, which as I recall said that a child who reads poorly orally probably reads poorly silently and that we can assess a student's silent reading ability and proficiency by listening to him or her read orally. I don't agree with that, for reasons which have come up in this discussion. Plus, I have to take issue with the term silent reading performance because I don't consider silent reading to be a performance but that's just me. Renee ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
On Jul 14, 2007, at 1:01 PM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I guess I'm confused here. In order to use oral reading to get some clues about where the child is having trouble reading in general, one is operating under the assumption that what a reader does when reading orally reflects how he/she reads when reading silently. Goodman's Miscue Analysis certainly operates under this assumption. The miscues that a reader makes when reading orally reflect the processes that a reader uses when reading silently. Oral reading is a reflection of silent reading. Tim, If you remember back to how this started, you made this statement: On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: ... It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. I took exception to this statement with my question, How can we possibly know this? I made a simple statement that had to do with THAT comment, and then the conversation veered into other details that have nothing to do with the original, pure comment. I do not believe that one can assume that a child who does not read well orally also does not read well silently.. IF that child shows good comprehension of what he read. I was talking about comprehension, and not making the assumption that there is an automatic correlation between how well a child reads orally and how well a child reads silently. So I will repeat/paraphrase my original thought. that if a child does not read somewhat fluently orally, I am not going to assume that he/she also does not read very fluently silently IF his/her comprehension of what he/she has read is sufficient, as determined by what he/she can recall of what was read as determined by conversation, question and answers, and/or a written response. Now, if the child reads orally in a less-than-fluent manner and the same child is unable to talk or write about what he/she has read, I would then make an assumption that the child has some silent reading difficulty as well, . because the child has some reading difficulty in general. Or that what they child is reading is simply too difficult for any number of reasons. The point being that there are lots of variables. :-) Renee To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong. Joseph Chilton Pearce ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
From: RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] The miscues that a reader makes when reading orally MAY OR MAY NOT reflect the processes that a reader uses when reading silently. from Bev NOW I WOULD AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT. Oral reading is a reflection of silent reading. from Bev, ORAL READING MAY REFLECT A CHILD'S SILENT READING. WE MAY GET SOME CLUES ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING INSIDE A KID'S HEAD WHEN WE LISTEN TO HIM OR HER READ. OTHER TECHNIQUES WOULD INCLUDE A DISCUSSION FOLLOWING THE READ, A STORY RETELLING, A COMPREHENSION INVENTORY, AND OTHERS. THESE OTHER TECHNIQUES WOULD TELL US IF THE STUDENT WAS UNDERSTANDING WHAT HE WAS READING. THEY DON'T, HOWEVER, TELL US WHAT HE WAS DOING WITH THE SPECIFIC WORDS, PHRASING, PROSODY, OR ANYTHING ELSE IN HIS BRAIN. MAYBE, IN TIME, SCIENCE WILL PROVIDE US WITH CLEARER ESTIMATES OF JUST THAT. BUT AS OF THIS WRITING, I THINK ANY OF US WHO THINK WE CAN TELL WHAT'S GOING ON INSIDE A KID'S BRAIN ARE OVERGENERALIZING OTHER DATA, SUCH AS HIS ORAL READING PERFORMANCE. _ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-usocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Sure. If a student is struggling in reading comprehension, I try to use an informal reading inventory approach.I ask the students to read several passages orally and silently. I tell them to their best reading and pay attention to the meaning of the passage as I will asking them some questions about what they have read. I will also have them listen to me read a couple passages to them and ask them to follow along silently. From these readings I am able to check their word recognition accuracy (percentage or words read accurately), word recognition automaticity (reading rate), expressiveness or prosody, vocabulary (knowledge of worrd meanings from the passages), and comprehension (oral, silent, and listening; literal, inferential, and critical levels of comprehension). I will also examine their word recognition errors to determine the extent to which they are focusing on the various cueing systems (grapho-phonic, syntactic, semantic).I will also ask them to tell me how they felt about their readings of the passages.From this data set I can assess the areas of reading that are strengths and concerns; and from that I try to design instruction to meet the needs of the students. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Mary Helen Chappetto Sent: Wed 7/11/2007 10:41 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Tim~ I would love to hear your response to this same dilemma. How DO you get to the source of the difficulty with comprehension? However, if you have a student who is having difficulty comprehending, how do you determine the source of the difficulty? Every child in our reading clinic at Kent State manifests difficulty in comprehension. However, the sources of the difficulty varies greatly among the children. Without knowing the source of the difficulty, instruction to meet the source of the difficulty is a challenge at best. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Tim, If you remember back to how this started, you made this statement: ... It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. I took exception to this statement with my question, How can we possibly know this? Renee - I thought your explanation (which I deleted) clarified and elaborated on your thinking, which I obviously strongly agreed with. But I think your original cryptic question really best said it all. I can readily INFER that you thought the logic of the original remark was a bit stretched. So, from my perspective, How can we possibly know this? best expressed the entire argument in a nutshell. Here is the true point of departure, from my viewpoint. One professional makes a single assumption (that readers who read in a slow and labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way silently) and, from that assumption (which he believes to be true, but which others may or may not) generates an enormous set of ifso beliefs. Now I think many of us could buy his argument if he stated it as possibly and go ahead and do authentic readings and rereadings and the other wonderful techniques that Dr. Rasinski recommends. But, as a profession, it seems to me that this is yet another example of where we are with Reading First and other issues in our nation at this time. Renee's question is a seemingly simple and straightforward question. But, underneath that question, is an enormous statement. I'm trying not to make much ado about nothing, but I think this exchange between Renee and Tim is sympomatic of a much, much larger issue. The following isn't the best example; the original question is. But. . . I would liken Dr. Rasinski's argument to the same problematic argument made by basal reader enthusiasts in the 50s and programmed reader enthusiastics in the late 60s, early 70s and the Reading First/Engelman enthusiasts of the early 21st Century folk-- that was questioned by Kenneth Goodman until he put a book into real children's hands and really looked and listened to what he saw and heard. And then Holdaway and Clay and Sulzby and Teale and Taylor...well, you get the point. Not to lose track of my thinking, however, is that what all these folk saw was that answers will vary is the only true, inescapable answer to how children become literate. The basal reader folk believed they knew precisely how children learned to read; they learned more and more words which the basal taught them. Further, they learned ALL the words that the basal taught them (oops!) and that they learned NO OTHER WORDS (really big oops!) than what the basal taught them. The programmed reader folk believed the same thing to be true, just with what they called word families and phonics generalizations and phonics. (By the way, thattime period is when most of Engleman's work was written.) Now, with the Reading First movement, we have a new Pony in the Show. Because these folk say that not only do children learn what is taught, and nothing more, but they say that if a child doesn't get it that way, that the key is to do the same thing more and more and more and more. Why do I have such a strong opinion? Because for the last 36 years, I've put real books in kindergarten, first grade, and second grade kids' hands and saw what they actually did and didn't do. I'm trying not to overgeneralize from my experience, but I do have a firm belief about what I saw and heard. That's probably best stated as answers will vary just as the teachers' guides say. (Well, not the Reading First teachers' guides, I guess.) And that's why I think Renee's question was right on, and should not be made light of. It was brilliant. When she elaborated for Tim, she spelled out her thinking, but that may have helped Tim to understand what she was saying. BUT - her question should be the question we're all shouting from the tops of our schoolhouses: HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THAT? The most we can do is ESTIMATE from the evidence!! (which I think Tim might agree with.) We have a multi-billion dollar industry providing us educators with materials, training, more materials, testing, retesting, more materials, tutoring, monitoring, graphing, more materials, punishing, rewarding, more materials etcetera which is based on an assumption which fails to take into account the simple question Renee asked: HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THAT? I would say it's arrogance, but I think in this case arrogance is trumped by corporate greed and total lack of respect for an entire profession. Oh, my. Not to make a mountain out of a molehill (we've seen enough of that lately), but to say, You go, girl!! Renee, you asked what many, many of us would like to ask. Bev _
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I think it is important when we think about when we use reading strategies in real life. Pat K to be nobody but yourself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you like everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting. e.e. cummings On Jul 14, 2007, at 8:08 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Just yesterday, I found myself reading and rereading the 3 page letter I received from the IRS -- repeated reading for authentic reasons? Yes! :) ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Kat, Thanks for the input - it's good to hear from someone who regularly works with this type of reader. I get the feeling that he's never really been taught to think. His school system is all about beating the test, and I'm inferring (from clues in the newspaper and from whisperings of teachers!) that they spend a lot of time on surface-level structures to do so. To the point of posting the nonsense words from DIBELS around the room in 1st grade, if you can believe that. Anyway, I have been working with him on reading strategies, particularly visualizing, which is slowly coming along. I hate to see a child like this who has missed so much good thinking instruction in the 4 years of his school career. I feel sure that with time he could learn the comprehension strategies. But he is so discouraged at this point... Heather Wall/ 3rd grade/ Georgia NBCT 2005 Literacy: Reading - Language Arts - Original Message From: Kitty Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:06:58 AM Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Heather, I teach our third grade co-teach class - many LD and ADHD students. Your boy sounds like several of my students. They are all different, but I did find that my really extreme ADHD kids could not read silently because they just couldn't stay focused. They would tell me that they weren't really reading. They also had problems with reading aloud for the same reason. Their mouth may be saying the words, but their mind is somewhere else. We call them word callers. I found it helpful to make them very aware of what should be going on in their head. I would sit with them and model my thinking while trying to get them into the habit of thinking while reading by telling me about their thinking. They just need more individual support than most students. They do not have that habit of trying to make meaning from what they read, because for them text never has made much sense. Kat/Third Grade/Texas - Original Message - From: Heather Wall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Elaine, I have a question about your statement below. I'm tutoring a little boy (LD, ADHD) who reads with fair fluency but absolutely no prosody. It's robot reading with no expression, no stopping for periods, commas, etc. Could that be having an effect on his comprehension (which is suffering when it comes to details and higher-level stuff such as inferring)? I'm thinking I read that somewhere, and it makes sense that without expression the story is just a list of words to be gotten through. He comprehends even worse on the sections he reads silently, so I'm thinking he's still robot reading in his head also. Heather Wall/ 3rd grade/ Georgia ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Next week I'll be reading a poem at my grandmother's funeral. That's an event where I want the message of the poem to come through and not mangle it with hesitant or disfluent reading. Heather Wall/ 3rd grade/ Georgia NBCT 2005 Literacy: Reading - Language Arts Can anyone else think of a time when it is necessary to read out loud and it would be a detriment or embarrassment to do it poorly? Nancy ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Wish I could be with you this year. I've only been to one Conference for one day (two years ago) and can't wait for the opportunity to attend again. Finances have prevented me these past two years. Take good notes and share, Lori. Kay in AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:20 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies EmailGroup Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Nancy, I could buy that! In fact, if we were to adddress oral fluency as an issue to be linked to our speaking and listening standards, you would have me in the palm of your hand. Lori P.S. Where are, my friend? Aren't you making WLU this year? On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:48:58 EDT , [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: In a message dated 7/12/2007 10:57:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But I don't assume that a poor oral reader is a poor silent reader. Renee, I've been thinking and thinking about this, and the importance of oral reading fluency. I agree that meaning is what it is all about, but it has also occurred to me that throughout their education, students are going to encounter times when they have to read out loud. I understand that oral reading is a performance, but I'm wondering if teaching students to read well orally out loud just for performance purposes, might be a life skill that people need. What do you think? Nancy http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Yet, oral reading is becoming a school skill. Elisa Waingort Calgary,Canada Hi, Just have to say that I've never thought of oral reading as a school skill. how about the report that you're asked to read at a board meeting--of any company? how do you ever understand a piece of poetry if you aren't reading it orally? and some of my best experiences as a literate person come from reading aloud and sharing books and poems with my mother and later with my children. that's in addition to all the casual times mentioned earlier when you read an excerpt from the newspaper or some book aloud because it strikes you and you want to share it. Coreen Russell ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
On Jul 11, 2007, at 6:32 PM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Renee: I admire your focus on comprehension. However, if you have a student who is having difficulty comprehending, how do you determine the source of the difficulty? . snip.. Without knowing the source of the difficulty, instruction to meet the source of the difficulty is a challenge at best. I never said I don't look for the source of the difficulty. What I said is that I don't use oral reading skills to assess silent reading skills. If a student has a reasonable sense of what he is reading but is not a great oral reader, I do not assume that he/she is not a good silent reader. If a student cannot reasonably discuss what he/she read, then I would have him/her read to me to see what I could find out. But I don't assume that a poor oral reader is a poor silent reader. Here is what I said: I have never used oral reading skills to assess silent reading. In fact, I don't assess silent reading in the first place. What I assess is comprehension. If I am required to give students a score or grade for fluency or other reading skills/tools, I do it, but not by choice. To me, reading is making meaning. Making meaning is exemplified by how well a student is able to discuss or write about what he or she has read. Renee El fin de toda educacion debe ser seguramente el servicio a otros. ~ Cesar Chavez ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I absolutely do not disagree with this, Nancy. On Jul 12, 2007, at 8:48 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/12/2007 10:57:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But I don't assume that a poor oral reader is a poor silent reader. Renee, I've been thinking and thinking about this, and the importance of oral reading fluency. I agree that meaning is what it is all about, but it has also occurred to me that throughout their education, students are going to encounter times when they have to read out loud. I understand that oral reading is a performance, but I'm wondering if teaching students to read well orally out loud just for performance purposes, might be a life skill that people need. What do you think? Nancy We live in a world in which we need to share responsibility. It's easy to say, 'It's not my child, not my community, not my world, not my problem.' Then there are those, who see the need and respond. I consider those people my heroes. ~ Fred Rogers ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Nancy, I could buy that! In fact, if we were to adddress oral fluency as an issue to be linked to our speaking and listening standards, you would have me in the palm of your hand. Lori P.S. Where are, my friend? Aren't you making WLU this year? On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:48:58 EDT , [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: In a message dated 7/12/2007 10:57:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But I don't assume that a poor oral reader is a poor silent reader. Renee, I've been thinking and thinking about this, and the importance of oral reading fluency. I agree that meaning is what it is all about, but it has also occurred to me that throughout their education, students are going to encounter times when they have to read out loud. I understand that oral reading is a performance, but I'm wondering if teaching students to read well orally out loud just for performance purposes, might be a life skill that people need. What do you think? Nancy http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Hi Nancy, This isn't Renee but I just had to jump in on this one. I am not of the mind that we need to prepare kids for activities that they may have to do some day in school. Unfortunately, there are things that kids do in school that they never do outside of school. How many book reports, dioramas, etc have you had to do outside of school? I am strongly opposed to having kids practice reading aloud because someday they might have to do it in some class. Did I say that already? Having said that, if one of my students wants to read something aloud to the class they must practice it first and then read it to me before reading it to the class. Laborious reading aloud is very painful for everyone involved and really takes away from the excitement the child may have had in the first place. Also, because reading aloud is a performance some kids just want that center stage and it isn't always a positive experience for anyone in the class. Just my two cents. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada But I don't assume that a poor oral reader is a poor silent reader. Renee, I've been thinking and thinking about this, and the importance of oral reading fluency. I agree that meaning is what it is all about, but it has also occurred to me that throughout their education, students are going to encounter times when they have to read out loud. I understand that oral reading is a performance, but I'm wondering if teaching students to read well orally out loud just for performance purposes, might be a life skill that people need. What do you think? Nancy ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Stephanie, I have also used the Fluent Reader this past year. In New Mexico we have to use DIBELS. Our district has us do it K-3. They gave us palm pilots with the tests on them so we can electronically assess the reading passages the students read. Using information I got from this book and some other research I read, I set up reading groups. I will say that I may not have gone strictly by the book on this. I have a listening center that attaches to a tape player with several headphones. I took my kids who were in the Stategic and Intensive levels of DIBELS (those who did not meet the minimum number of WPM) and even some of my bilingual students. I recorded the short leveled readers that came with our Scott Foresman reading series at a very slow pace. I would put 4 or 5 students at a round table with the headphones and have them read with the tape twice each day. It took about 20 minutes per group. I did this during our AR time (1 hour). I sat at the table with the kids to make sure they stayed on task while the other kids were reading around the room. This way I was able to meet with all my groups while everyone else was busy. One little boy went from 48 WPM on the first benchmark in August to 112 WPM in May. Several others made great leaps as well. Of course, I had three who, though they improved a lot, did not even make the minimum for the middle of the year by the end of the year. But they did improve. This year I want to work on improving their comprehension as well as their fluency- to make if more than separate pieces of the puzzle. Cheryle Estala Hobbs, NM ** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
In a message dated 7/12/2007 7:13:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I took my kids who were in the Stategic and Intensive levels of DIBELS (those who did not meet the minimum number of WPM) and even some of my bilingual students. I recorded the short leveled readers that came with our Scott Foresman reading series at a very slow pace. I would put 4 or 5 students at a round table with the headphones and have them read with the tape twice each day. It took about 20 minutes per group. I did this during our AR time (1 hour). I sat at the table with the kids to make sure they stayed on task while the other kids were reading around the room. This way I was able to meet with all my groups while everyone else was busy. One little boy went from 48 WPM on the first benchmark in August to 112 WPM in May. Several others made great leaps as well. Cheryle, Please don't think I am trying to pick on you or anything, but I had this strange visualization when I read this. I don't know what grade these kids are, but I visualized all these one year olds on treadmills who couldn't walk yet and speeding up the treadmill so many minutes per day until finally in May they were walking ( leaping) at so many steps per minute. Are there kids that are just wired to read later? I hear so many stories of intelligent youngsters who just learned to read later in life. I worry what we are doing to kids. Nancy ** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
In a message dated 7/12/2007 6:07:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am strongly opposed to having kids practice reading aloud because someday they might have to do it in some class. Elisa, Today I've been trying to think of times in life that people read out loud. Maybe some others could come up with a list. The times I am thinking about are like when my husband or my girls and I read out loud to one another. Like we find something really interesting in a book or newspaper and want to share it. Or what about reading out loud to your children? Wouldn't you want your students to be able to read well out loud to their own children if they have them? I'd be devastated if I couldn't read well to my grandkids. I thought about in church, although I guess that is often done chorally. Can anyone else think of a time when it is necessary to read out loud and it would be a detriment or embarrassment to do it poorly? Nancy ** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I am thinking we sometimes read outloud to lend credibility to a position or a belief statement. In doing so, failing to read well would simply defeat the purpose. Lori On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:50:21 EDT , [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: In a message dated 7/12/2007 6:07:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am strongly opposed to having kids practice reading aloud because someday they might have to do it in some class. Elisa, Today I've been trying to think of times in life that people read out loud. Maybe some others could come up with a list. The times I am thinking about are like when my husband or my girls and I read out loud to one another. Like we find something really interesting in a book or newspaper and want to share it. Or what about reading out loud to your children? Wouldn't you want your students to be able to read well out loud to their own children if they have them? I'd be devastated if I couldn't read well to my grandkids. I thought about in church, although I guess that is often done chorally. Can anyone else think of a time when it is necessary to read out loud and it would be a detriment or embarrassment to do it poorly? Nancy http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Hi Nancy, Those are authentic situations and yes I would want to encourage those but I think they come naturally out of a desire to read to someone or with someone. Therefore, you'd want to do a good job and you'd pay attention to the way you were reading. Don't you think? That's the kind of reading aloud I'd like to foster in the classroom. But, I think to practice it as an activity for all children...Still wouldn't do that. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada I am strongly opposed to having kids practice reading aloud because someday they might have to do it in some class. Elisa, Today I've been trying to think of times in life that people read out loud. Maybe some others could come up with a list. The times I am thinking about are like when my husband or my girls and I read out loud to one another. Like we find something really interesting in a book or newspaper and want to share it. Or what about reading out loud to your children? Wouldn't you want your students to be able to read well out loud to their own children if they have them? I'd be devastated if I couldn't read well to my grandkids. I thought about in church, although I guess that is often done chorally. Can anyone else think of a time when it is necessary to read out loud and it would be a detriment or embarrassment to do it poorly? Nancy ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Yes. Someone earlier made a statement about not really paying attention to meaning when reading aloud. I know that's sometimes true for me. I have to make myself focus when I read a book together with my husband. I have to stop often to think or talk about what I just read which I don't do as much when I'm reading silently. So, this is making me wonder about the PM Benchmark assessments I've been doing with my grade ones...After they read aloud I notice a detachment in the retelling. They get the main ideas but they don't go very deeply and I get the impression that that was enough. In other words, perhaps from their perspective, reading aloud was sufficient for me to see how well they can read. The reading aloud was effort enough. Don't know. Towards the end of this year I implemented a 10-minute silent reading time in my classroom. A couple of times I had the kids write what they understood about what they had read at the end of the 10 minutes. I feel like I got a lot more comprehending with that activity than when I did the PM Benchmark assessments. This is not the only form of reading assessment I do (I know this is not true for other teachers) so I try to get information about how well they're comprehending through other means. Just thinking out loud. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada another PS - I wouldn't be too far from saying a bit more bold statement - Nearly ALL people read more slowly and haltingly when reading aloud, no matter their age PS Still and all, some kids (and adults) read more slowly and haltingly when reading aloud than when reading silently. Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently.The relationship between oral and silent reading is very strong. That is why we use oral reading as a way to assess overall reading -- including silent reading. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. _ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-usocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
The relationship between oral and silent reading is very strong. That is why we use oral reading as a way to assess overall reading -- including silent reading. I have never used oral reading skills to assess silent reading. In fact, I don't assess silent reading in the first place. What I assess is comprehension. If I am required to give students a score or grade for fluency or other reading skills/tools, I do it, but not by choice. To me, reading is making meaning. Making meaning is exemplified by how well a student is able to discuss or write about what he or she has read. But that's just me. Renee Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification but through fidelity to a worthy purpose. ~Helen Keller ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
On Jul 10, 2007, at 10:26 PM, Beverlee Paul wrote: I have to agree, with reservations. I think our profession is going to be gone as a profession if something doesn't change. And it'll go with a whimper not a bang. Too many with integrity and intelligence just plain won't be able to stand seeing that script one more time. They'll go. And the ones left? They'll be the ones who cruise in 10 minutes before school to take up their post and administer the day. Well, I certainly agree with this, and in fact I would venture to say that there are some folks out there who are actively working for this to happen. All the writers of NCLB may not have intended this, but it's the result. Those teachers who would speak out need to be supported in staff meetings. I can't tell you the number of times I have spoken up, been the ONLY one who has spoken up, and everyone else just sits silently, so some wackadoodle thing gets pushed through, and then later four or five people will come to me privately and tell me they agreed with me. What is the matter with people? Renee If you choose the quick and easy path, you will become an agent of evil. ~Yoda ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Elaine, I have a question about your statement below. I'm tutoring a little boy (LD, ADHD) who reads with fair fluency but absolutely no prosody. It's robot reading with no expression, no stopping for periods, commas, etc. Could that be having an effect on his comprehension (which is suffering when it comes to details and higher-level stuff such as inferring)? I'm thinking I read that somewhere, and it makes sense that without expression the story is just a list of words to be gotten through. He comprehends even worse on the sections he reads silently, so I'm thinking he's still robot reading in his head also. Heather Wall/ 3rd grade/ Georgia NBCT 2005 Literacy: Reading - Language Arts - Original Message From: elaine garan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2007 10:10:37 PM Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Beyond beginning reading, beyond first grade, there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension. In fact, fluency (in terms of a focus on wpm and even prosody) can actually interfere with comprehension because the reader is thinking about that performance aspect instead of meaning, especially if he or she is being timed. . ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Elaine, Steve Stahl was my advisor during my graduate work at the University of Georgia (great guy - I do miss him) and while working with him I tried his fluency program with my class of 2nd graders. I've not read Melanie Kuhn's article that you cite below (she was working with Stahl at the same time I was there), so I don't know if the FOOR was exactly the same as the FORI (Fluency Oriented Reading Instruction) (1997) that I tried of his. However, I was disatisfied with it mainly b/c the instruction focused on reading 1 story a week, and began with the teacher reading it aloud to the class on Monday, then pairs reading it chorally or echo reading on Tuesday, etc. I found that my students never had a cold read of a text - the teacher always read it aloud first. I would think that after a long period of time doing this, that comprehension would have been compromised, b/c I was basically teaching my kids listening comprehension rather than reading comprehension. So, that's just one more possible aspect to why there was no improvement on comprehension in those studies. I agree with Kuhn below about too much focus being on fluency rather than comp. P.S. Sorry I'm late on this discussion - I'm about 350 emails behind on the list... Heather Wall/ 3rd grade/ Georgia NBCT 2005 Literacy: Reading - Language Arts The wide-reading group, on the other hand, read a new book at each session. As a result, comprehension, expression, and word recognition may have been viewed as having equivalent importance. It could be that the students developed a broader implicit focus, one that included the understanding and enjoyment of the stories as well as the accurate and expressive reading of the text. It is equally possible that this focus carried over to the posttesting and led to the wide-reading group's growth in comprehension as well as in word recognition and prosody. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Hi Heather - I know that you are writing to Elainebut I had a student like this one time. I had success when I chose a different genre of writing...say riddles or jokes...things with high emotionI also had more success when I had the student write and read his own writing aloud to me and to his peers. He was able to put more emotion and feeling into his reading I have mixed feelings about the relationship between fluency and comprehension. But, I have strong feelings about being able to identify with the material...have an emotional response...I think it is critical to making meaning...and certainly to inferring. Christine - Original Message - From: Heather Wall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Elaine, I have a question about your statement below. I'm tutoring a little boy (LD, ADHD) who reads with fair fluency but absolutely no prosody. It's robot reading with no expression, no stopping for periods, commas, etc. Could that be having an effect on his comprehension (which is suffering when it comes to details and higher-level stuff such as inferring)? I'm thinking I read that somewhere, and it makes sense that without expression the story is just a list of words to be gotten through. He comprehends even worse on the sections he reads silently, so I'm thinking he's still robot reading in his head also. Heather Wall/ 3rd grade/ Georgia NBCT 2005 Literacy: Reading - Language Arts - Original Message From: elaine garan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2007 10:10:37 PM Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Beyond beginning reading, beyond first grade, there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension. In fact, fluency (in terms of a focus on wpm and even prosody) can actually interfere with comprehension because the reader is thinking about that performance aspect instead of meaning, especially if he or she is being timed. . ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Renee: I admire your focus on comprehension. However, if you have a student who is having difficulty comprehending, how do you determine the source of the difficulty? Students can have difficulty comprehending for a number of reasons -- lack of decoding skills, poor comprehension strategies, restricted meaning vocabulary, poor fluency, etc. Every child in our reading clinic at Kent State manifests difficulty in comprehension. However, the sources of the difficulty varies greatly among the children. Without knowing the source of the difficulty, instruction to meet the source of the difficulty is a challenge at best. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Renee Sent: Wed 7/11/2007 11:21 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim The relationship between oral and silent reading is very strong. That is why we use oral reading as a way to assess overall reading -- including silent reading. I have never used oral reading skills to assess silent reading. In fact, I don't assess silent reading in the first place. What I assess is comprehension. If I am required to give students a score or grade for fluency or other reading skills/tools, I do it, but not by choice. To me, reading is making meaning. Making meaning is exemplified by how well a student is able to discuss or write about what he or she has read. But that's just me. Renee Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification but through fidelity to a worthy purpose. ~Helen Keller ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I recognize the value of being 'phrased and fluent', as Marie Clay would say, yet I could never, in all honesty, say to a child, Let's have another go at this to increase our WPM. This discussion has been particularly interesting to me and I think is a matter of framing the issue. I cannot fluency accept as the purpose of multiple readings, but am fully aware of fluency as positive side effect. Lori On 7/9/07 10:45 PM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lori -- what you describe seems very sound to me -- repeated readings for an authentic reason. I know when I read poetry I can never a poem once and get all that I would like from it. As I read it and reread I begin to notice things such as the poet' s use of rhyme, rhythm, repetition of words and phrases, alliteration, figurative language. I often think of this process of repeated readings and exposures to texts in much the same way as coming to like a song. Often when i hear a song the first time it may not grab my fancy. Yet, after hearing the same song on the radio over the course of week, by Friday it often becomes my favorite song of all time. The repeated exposure leads to deeper levels of examination and comrpehension. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehe nsion.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of ljackson Sent: Mon 7/9/2007 8:28 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim I'm not Tim, but this issue rereading with older readers came up in discussion at a PEBC Institute last winter. The exceptional middle school teacher I observed talked about the importance of giving kids authentic purposes for rereading. As an example, we might first read a story to get the gist of the plot and other story elements. We might then reread the text for specific information that supports inference into character. When I think about the role of shared reading (which was by nature rereading in my classroom), we did approach each day's rereading with a very different text. Today as we share this reading, I want you to be thinking about... Words that rhyme, word choice, how to dramatize the piece, craft, etc. Lori On 7/9/07 4:58 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr. Rasinski, I appreciate so much being able to talk to you directly. My first issue in reading all of the Mosaic responses and questions concerns the definition of fluency from your perspective. Secondly, I would like to talk about a child that I work with. She is entering fourth grade. She reads (DRA level 28) She reads with meaning on a literal level, but needs guidance and support with inference. Her decoding is in many cases hesitant. I have found that rereading is very helpful, but the rereading we do is not necessarily authentic. I just explain to her that by rereading something, she will become a more fluent reader and she does it and does it well. She appears to feel really good about rereading something better each time she does it. How important is it for rereading to be for authentic purposes such as reader's theater etc.? If a child understands the purpose, isn't that enough? Thank you, Maxine ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com http://www.aol.com/ . ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Lori Jackson District Literacy Coach Mentor Todd County School District Box 87 Mission SD 57555 http:www.tcsdk12.org ph. 605.856.2211 Literacies for All Summer Institute Literate Lives: A Human Right July 12-15, 2007 Louisville, Kentucky http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Lori Jackson District Literacy Coach Mentor Todd
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I think both Mr. Rasinski and Ms. Waingort are right in their comments on the importance of fluency. S. J. Samuels was on the NRP, and at the Chicago IRA he stated that fluency was taken up by the NRP in large part because he was on the panel...and that others on the panel did fight for their own interests. Mr. Samuels also stated that if he would have known what was going to happen with fluency instruction is classrooms as a result, it would have been better Fluency had not been considered at all. Strong words. And, to think that it wasn't too many years ago that Tim Shanahan described fluency as the neglected, or forgotten tool, or something close to those terms. Perhaps what Mr. Rasinski noted about Stahl's last study holds part of the key-a significant number of students were struggling readers. In our profession we repeatedly take hold of something that works for one group of students and generalize it as good for all readers. And, we can't be happy with practicing fluent reading in moderation--sharing a poem or song each day in class in a meaningful enjoyable way, either, as mentioned in recent postings. (That's not direct enough teaching for many.) In recent years it was phonemic awareness (Richard Allington described it as the false crisis). The work of just a few researchers, often with very small numbers of struggling readers fueled that crisis, and often just citing each other's work. All of a sudden even children who were reading fluently needed to focus on letter ID and letter sounds...breaking the reading process back down to its least meaningful parts. I remember reading Connie Juel trying to bail out when her work was being cited so much- in ways not necessarily how she viewed her own results. Of course most recent is the DIBELS work, borne out of special education and foisted upon the Reading First schools. Now in this city we have whole schools (not just reading first schools, not schools full of struggling readers--yet anyway) charting how many words and sounds they are reading each month-and other garbage. And, holding whole school assemblies to celebrate. What do these kids think reading is? How can they make the adults (reading teachers, teachers, principals, parents school board members) in their lives more happy? Just read more words, more letters, and more sounds-- and read them faster. What's the new crisis? Middle school kids who can read but are choosing not to read. How can we blame them? What's the other not so new crisis? Soaring high school drop-out rates...Some of our reading leaders look at the NAEP scores and say we're just not doing enough at the higher levels, as if that's all the answer..willing to accept that core reading programs and DIBELS for our struggling readers is the answer because state leaders say it's working??? Just keep the money flowing-into the right pockets. Just wait until this group of struggling readers in those Reading First schools reach middle school/high school age after YEARS of being DIBELed in the name of reading instruction. I am very afraid we haven't seen anything in how high drop-out rates will go yet. And, we as a profession will have done nothing about it. John Delich Springfield, IL I would have thought that the reason that fluency was cited by the NRP was because of an existing and growing body of evidence that suggests that fluency is an important component And because it was a pet peeve of some on the panel. Elisa Waingort ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
another PS - I wouldn't be too far from saying a bit more bold statement - Nearly ALL people read more slowly and haltingly when reading aloud, no matter their age PS Still and all, some kids (and adults) read more slowly and haltingly when reading aloud than when reading silently. Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently.The relationship between oral and silent reading is very strong. That is why we use oral reading as a way to assess overall reading -- including silent reading. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. _ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-usocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Well, I also think teachers have allowed this to happen. It is not only the decision-makers who have taken leave of their senses it is a great number of teachers in the trenches as well. There are a lot of teachers who *like* DIBELS, who *like* Open Court, who *like* SRA, who *like* Success for All, who *like* Star Reading, who *like* computer tests, who *like* Saxon Math, who *like* Excel Math, who *like* programs that tell them what to do, who *like* assessments that give them a number to go by. And way too many teachers who don't like these programs but who just go along and do whatever they are told without thinking about it, without speaking up, without making a case for something better. Way, way too many, in fact. At least that's how it is where I live. Renee _ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2 ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I have to agree, with reservations. I think our profession is going to be gone as a profession if something doesn't change. And it'll go with a whimper not a bang. Too many with integrity and intelligence just plain won't be able to stand seeing that script one more time. They'll go. And the ones left? They'll be the ones who cruise in 10 minutes before school to take up their post and administer the day. Well, I also think teachers have allowed this to happen. It is not only the decision-makers who have taken leave of their senses it is a great number of teachers in the trenches as well. There are a lot of teachers who *like* DIBELS, who *like* Open Court, who *like* SRA, who *like* Success for All, who *like* Star Reading, who *like* computer tests, who *like* Saxon Math, who *like* Excel Math, who *like* programs that tell them what to do, who *like* assessments that give them a number to go by. And way too many teachers who don't like these programs but who just go along and do whatever they are told without thinking about it, without speaking up, without making a case for something better. Way, way too many, in fact. At least that's how it is where I live. _ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-usocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently.The relationship between oral and silent reading is very strong. That is why we use oral reading as a way to assess overall reading -- including silent reading. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Waingort Jimenez, Elisa Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:55 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Except it may not be slow and halting when they read silently. Just a thought. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada Are we really doing children a favor and ignoring their slow, halting, labored reading in the primary grades because they seem to be understanding what they read? Just thinking out loud here. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtoco mprehension.com/ ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
My son falls into that category. He is far more efficient as a silent reader and too concerned with Oscar winning performances when reading aloud. Lori On 7/8/07 9:55 PM, Waingort Jimenez, Elisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Except it may not be slow and halting when they read silently. Just a thought. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada Are we really doing children a favor and ignoring their slow, halting, labored reading in the primary grades because they seem to be understanding what they read? Just thinking out loud here. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehe nsion.com/ ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Lori Jackson District Literacy Coach Mentor Todd County School District Box 87 Mission SD 57555 http:www.tcsdk12.org ph. 605.856.2211 Literacies for All Summer Institute Literate Lives: A Human Right July 12-15, 2007 Louisville, Kentucky http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I absolutely do agree. It is not the issue of fluency or flow that makes me nervous, it is what seems to be happening in the name of fluency. Lori On 7/8/07 7:51 PM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes I absolutely agree Lori. My concern is that slow, halting, and clearly laborious reading is fine as long as the child understands what he or she reads. In my opinion, and I think you agree, such reading is a concern that needs to be addressed. Modeling reading, wide reading, and authentic repeated readings are three important ways to address this concern. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehe nsion.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of ljackson Sent: Sun 7/8/2007 10:28 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim But Tim, the point of miscue is to work with the child to address those issues which are impacting meaning and certainly think that halting heading behaviors, unnecessary rereading and even over-correcting can certainly be impacting oral fluency. Again, is it wide and successful reading that builds fluency or fluency that ensures wide and successful reading. I suppose a bit of both, don't you? Lori On 7/8/07 4:06 PM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I applaud the child who reads haltingly in grades 2, 3, 4, 5 and comprehends well. However, if that student is still reading haltingly in the middle and high school grades it is going to catch up with him/her.A few years ago I worked with 9th graders in Chicago, more than a few of whom were reading at a rate of 20-30 words per minute on 8th grade passages. These students were ready to drop out of school they were so frustrated. If a normal achieving 9th grader reads at a rate of say 160 words per minute, any one hour reading assignment given to the student reading at 30 words per minute now becomes a 5 hour assignment. I would offer that this student is frustrated and, to be honest, I can understand their frustration. Unless we attempt to address these problems in the elementary grades we are likely to end up with high school students (assuming they don't drop out before high school) who are much like the ones I found in Chicago (and around the country). I think we need to take a look at the big picture. Are we really doing children a favor and ignoring their slow, halting, labored reading in the primary grades because they seem to be understanding what they read? Just thinking out loud here. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocompreh e nsion.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Waingort Jimenez, Elisa Sent: Sun 7/8/2007 11:24 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Hi Tim, I don´t think anyone is saying that fluency is worthless. I think the question was about a child who can read silently with comprehension but reads haltingly aloud. I still believe that there is no cause to worry in this case. To me, it´s the same issue that comes up when people say that until children can name the letters of the alphabet and the sounds of those letters, they shouldn´t be writing. I´m still not convinced that reading aloud fluently is important if the child reads silently (probably fluently) and with comprehension. As others have noted, reading aloud is a performance and some people don´t do well when they´re on stage. Any thoughts? Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada Fluency can be a troubling concept -- I agree; but please don't decide that it is worthless because of the way some experts recommend it be taught.If done appropriately, I think (I know from my own clinical and classroom work) that it can be life saver for many students. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoe Jackson Sent
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
In a message dated 7/8/2007 9:35:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with Elaine that DIBELS can message readers that WPM is what reading is all about. You're rightDIBELS can leave that message. So, we need to intervene and let them know daily what fluency is, and why it is important. I have mentioned earlier that I do Reader's Theater, daily practice and weekly performance. In those DAILY situations we talk about what fluency REALLY is and why it is important. I have a rubric for performance day, and after each performance the students give positive comments about each performance. I also give positive comments and suggestions for improvement. When DIBELS comes around I let them know, this is a test to see if all that practice is working and for them to think about what we have learned about fluency. It makes a difference. We need to be specific, we need to show them the difference. Terry/FL ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
In a message dated 7/9/2007 7:18:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When DIBELS comes around I let them know, this is a test to see if all that practice is working and for them to think about what we have learned about fluency Terry, Do you have to give DIBELS? I'm just curious because you must be able to tell from the Reader's Theater and other things you are practicing and performing whether or not the students' fluency is improving. Couldn't you just use that rubric as the fluency assessment? Nancy Creech ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
This is exactly why I campaigned...(hard... and fortunately successfully!) not to have DIBELS adopted in our district! DIBELS does send the message to both teachers and kids that reading rate is the end goal not comprehension. I still find that for kids at risk, monitoring reading rates can assist with identification and diagnosis of reading problems. Jennifer Maryland In a message dated 7/8/2007 9:35:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with Elaine that DIBELS can message readers that WPM is what reading is all about. Lori ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. How can we possibly know this? Renee Learning isn't a means to an end; it is an end in itself. ~ Robert A. Heinlein ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
How can we possibly know this? Renee I was wondering the same thing but didn't want to say it. My silent reading is very different from my oral reading. When I read silently, especially for pleasure, I skip way more words and skim sections-- I also do rereadings when I get confused or lose a connection. I'm busy here summarizing Stahl's chapter but I needed to jump in on that. On Monday, July 9, 2007, at 07:40 AM, Renee wrote: On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. How can we possibly know this? Renee Learning isn't a means to an end; it is an end in itself. ~ Robert A. Heinlein ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
On Jul 8, 2007, at 9:42 PM, Beverlee Paul wrote: Renee - I think our profession is in kind of a mood, and justifiably so. It's as though we've all taken leave of our senses -- well, I mean the decision-makers, I guess, not us. But when you see things like SRA's corrective reading try to teach vocabulary words such as amblng in call and response format to ELL kids, it causes you to bid leave of your senses, so you can stand it! Nice quote at bottom. Some of our current-day decision-makers must think there isn't anything in our kids for them to discover! How wrong they are. Well, I also think teachers have allowed this to happen. It is not only the decision-makers who have taken leave of their senses it is a great number of teachers in the trenches as well. There are a lot of teachers who *like* DIBELS, who *like* Open Court, who *like* SRA, who *like* Success for All, who *like* Star Reading, who *like* computer tests, who *like* Saxon Math, who *like* Excel Math, who *like* programs that tell them what to do, who *like* assessments that give them a number to go by. And way too many teachers who don't like these programs but who just go along and do whatever they are told without thinking about it, without speaking up, without making a case for something better. Way, way too many, in fact. At least that's how it is where I live. Renee El fin de toda educacion debe ser seguramente el servicio a otros. ~ Cesar Chavez ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. How can we possibly know this? An idea: The rate could be found by timing the student as he silently reads a passage. Pauses would be apparent if the student pointed at each word as he reads silently. Loving this discussion! Diane ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Tim - I just spent a week at Columbia's Teachers College in Reading Workshop, and in my morning session we were working on strategies for, among other things, fluency. Someone working in my small group mentioned that you had a text in which you provide phrases for children to read to support increasing their fluency. Would you please identify which of your texts includes these phrases? Thank you. Linda -- Original message -- From: RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. The relationship between oral and silent reading is very strong. That is why we use oral reading as a way to assess overall reading -- including silent reading. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Waingort Jimenez, Elisa Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:55 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Except it may not be slow and halting when they read silently. Just a thought. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada Are we really doing children a favor and ignoring their slow, halting, labored reading in the primary grades because they seem to be understanding what they read? Just thinking out loud here. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ mprehension.com/ ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
In my experience, pointing to a word slows a reader down. Contrary to what we would think, studies of the eye movement of a reader shows that reading is not linear, but the eye moves ahead, and back as needed to make meaning. I forget who did the studies. I want to say it was one of the Goodmans. If you have a child track their reading, they slow way down because the tracking itself becomes a roadblock. In fact, I discourage reading aloud to oneself and tracking habitually, when reading silently, for that reason. However, since most of the reading we do in life is silent, and if fluency needs to be that important, timing a silent read makes great sense. I just don't know how you would differentiate that from testing...especially with the pressure involved. KIm On 7/9/07, Diane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. How can we possibly know this? An idea: The rate could be found by timing the student as he silently reads a passage. Pauses would be apparent if the student pointed at each word as he reads silently. Loving this discussion! Diane ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Kim --- Kimberlee Hannan Department Chair Sequoia Middle School Fresno, California 93702 Laugh when you can, apologize when you should, let go of what you can't change, kiss slowly, play hard, forgive quickly, take chances, give everything, have no regrets.. Life's too short to be anything but happy. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Actually you can find the phrases in either my book The Fluent Reader, or free at my website www.timrasinski.com They are based on Fry's instant word list and are a great way to practice phrasing and high frequency words at the same time Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon 7/9/2007 5:55 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Tim - I just spent a week at Columbia's Teachers College in Reading Workshop, and in my morning session we were working on strategies for, among other things, fluency. Someone working in my small group mentioned that you had a text in which you provide phrases for children to read to support increasing their fluency. Would you please identify which of your texts includes these phrases? Thank you. Linda -- Original message -- From: RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. The relationship between oral and silent reading is very strong. That is why we use oral reading as a way to assess overall reading -- including silent reading. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Waingort Jimenez, Elisa Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:55 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Except it may not be slow and halting when they read silently. Just a thought. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada Are we really doing children a favor and ignoring their slow, halting, labored reading in the primary grades because they seem to be understanding what they read? Just thinking out loud here. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ mprehension.com/ ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Tim, I also attended the Columbia Teacher's College Summer Reading Institute. Kylene Beers gave a mini-session on fluency and supported what you say about repeated reading. I plan on doing this with my Basic Skills middle school students in the fall but need to know whether students should be doing the the repeated reading with passages that are on their independent reading level. Thanks for clarifying this. Also, thanks for contributing to this discussion list. We are very lucky to have your input. Nora --- Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 6:16:51 PM EDT Actually you can find the phrases in either my book The Fluent Reader, or free at my website www.timrasinski.com They are based on Fry's instant word list and are a great way to practice phrasing and high frequency words at the same time Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocompr ehension.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon 7/9/2007 5:55 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Tim - I just spent a week at Columbia's Teachers College in Reading Workshop, and in my morning session we were working on strategies for, among other things, fluency. Someone working in my small group mentioned that you had a text in which you provide phrases for children to read to support increasing their fluency. Would you please identify which of your texts includes these phrases? Thank you. Linda -- Original message -- From: RASINSKI, TIMOTHY [EMAIL PROTECTED] Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. The relationship between oral and silent reading is very strong. That is why we use oral reading as a way to assess overall reading -- including silent reading. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Waingort Jimenez, Elisa Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:55 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Except it may not be slow and halting when they read silently. Just a thought. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada Are we really doing children a favor and ignoring their slow, halting, labored reading in the primary grades because they seem to be understanding what they read? Just thinking out loud here. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ mprehension.com/ ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I am betting that eye movement fixation might inform this in some way. Lori On 7/9/07 1:40 PM, Diane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. How can we possibly know this? An idea: The rate could be found by timing the student as he silently reads a passage. Pauses would be apparent if the student pointed at each word as he reads silently. Loving this discussion! Diane ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Lori Jackson District Literacy Coach Mentor Todd County School District Box 87 Mission SD 57555 http:www.tcsdk12.org ph. 605.856.2211 Literacies for All Summer Institute Literate Lives: A Human Right July 12-15, 2007 Louisville, Kentucky http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Silent reading rates are supposed to be faster than oral rates. There are norms set for that too...I know the QRI 4 has them. The ranges are wide to allow for students to adjust their rates when they meet challenging texts. Jennifer Maryland In a message dated 7/9/2007 6:03:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, since most of the reading we do in life is silent, and if fluency needs to be that important, timing a silent read makes great sense. I just don't know how you would differentiate that from testing...especially with the pressure involved. KIm ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
This absolutely confirmed by eye movement research which shows that the eye is ahead of the voice, even among readers as young as six. This same body of research shows that children do not fixate on every word, nor are the fixations necessarily in a consistent patter of left to right. Lori On 7/9/07 4:02 PM, kimberlee hannan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my experience, pointing to a word slows a reader down. Contrary to what we would think, studies of the eye movement of a reader shows that reading is not linear, but the eye moves ahead, and back as needed to make meaning. I forget who did the studies. I want to say it was one of the Goodmans. If you have a child track their reading, they slow way down because the tracking itself becomes a roadblock. In fact, I discourage reading aloud to oneself and tracking habitually, when reading silently, for that reason. However, since most of the reading we do in life is silent, and if fluency needs to be that important, timing a silent read makes great sense. I just don't know how you would differentiate that from testing...especially with the pressure involved. KIm On 7/9/07, Diane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. How can we possibly know this? An idea: The rate could be found by timing the student as he silently reads a passage. Pauses would be apparent if the student pointed at each word as he reads silently. Loving this discussion! Diane ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Lori Jackson District Literacy Coach Mentor Todd County School District Box 87 Mission SD 57555 http:www.tcsdk12.org ph. 605.856.2211 Literacies for All Summer Institute Literate Lives: A Human Right July 12-15, 2007 Louisville, Kentucky http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I'm not Tim, but this issue rereading with older readers came up in discussion at a PEBC Institute last winter. The exceptional middle school teacher I observed talked about the importance of giving kids authentic purposes for rereading. As an example, we might first read a story to get the gist of the plot and other story elements. We might then reread the text for specific information that supports inference into character. When I think about the role of shared reading (which was by nature rereading in my classroom), we did approach each day's rereading with a very different text. Today as we share this reading, I want you to be thinking about... Words that rhyme, word choice, how to dramatize the piece, craft, etc. Lori On 7/9/07 4:58 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr. Rasinski, I appreciate so much being able to talk to you directly. My first issue in reading all of the Mosaic responses and questions concerns the definition of fluency from your perspective. Secondly, I would like to talk about a child that I work with. She is entering fourth grade. She reads (DRA level 28) She reads with meaning on a literal level, but needs guidance and support with inference. Her decoding is in many cases hesitant. I have found that rereading is very helpful, but the rereading we do is not necessarily authentic. I just explain to her that by rereading something, she will become a more fluent reader and she does it and does it well. She appears to feel really good about rereading something better each time she does it. How important is it for rereading to be for authentic purposes such as reader's theater etc.? If a child understands the purpose, isn't that enough? Thank you, Maxine ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. -- Lori Jackson District Literacy Coach Mentor Todd County School District Box 87 Mission SD 57555 http:www.tcsdk12.org ph. 605.856.2211 Literacies for All Summer Institute Literate Lives: A Human Right July 12-15, 2007 Louisville, Kentucky http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Why would we expect that a reader who struggles over decoding a word orally to do significantly better rin decoding the same word while reading silently? They might do slightly better because of context and other variables; howeve, relative to good readers, there would be little difference. I know for myself that the words I have trouble with reading orally are still the same words I have trouble reading silently. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Renee Sent: Mon 7/9/2007 10:40 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Elisa: It very likely is slow and halting during silent reading -- readers who read in a slow an labored way orally, tend to read in a very similar way when reading silently. How can we possibly know this? Renee Learning isn't a means to an end; it is an end in itself. ~ Robert A. Heinlein ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Except when you read silently you may be paying attention to many other things on the page than just the text. Sometimes your eyes rest a little longer somewhere on the page and it may not be on the words. A student pointing to a word may just be holding his/her place while looking at the pictures or reading back for meaning. I think a conversatin with the student about what he was doing while reading may be more revealing. Eye movement research has shown that when we are reading (not sure if the research has been done with children reading silently or out loud) our eyes are all over the page, basically. We don't necessarily read in a linear fashion, if this makes sense. We spend less time on the little words (a, the, an, etc) than we do on the meaning words. Very interesting stuff. Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada An idea: The rate could be found by timing the student as he silently reads a passage. Pauses would be apparent if the student pointed at each word as he reads silently. Loving this discussion! Diane ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable input. Zoe On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 09:10 PM, elaine garan wrote: I'm not Tim, but I'll jump in here with a thought that might put your experience in a different perspective. Do you think it's possible that when he's reading aloud, he's so focused on how he sounds that he isn't thinking about what he's reading? This happens to me. When I'm reading in front of an audience, very often, I have no idea of what I've read. Maybe this is a sign that he's a mature reader. How often do any of us read aloud? How often do we worry about how fluently we read or how we sound? And when we do worry about that, what happens to our comprehension? Most of us do most of our reading silently. Beyond beginning reading, beyond first grade, there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension. In fact, fluency (in terms of a focus on wpm and even prosody) can actually interfere with comprehension because the reader is thinking about that performance aspect instead of meaning, especially if he or she is being timed. . The research supports that. So maybe this boy is a fluent as he needs to be. And if he's reading silently with comprehension, then why worry about how he sounds when he reads aloud since most of mature reading and even reading for tests is silent anyway? On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 05:53 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes he can. When he reads aloud he rereads constantly and has hardly any comprehension. If I ask him to read a page silently and tell me what it's about he can. He's a mystery. Sue ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing more than teaching kids to read fast and faster. However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When children read words automatically or effortlessly they can use their good brain to make sense of what they read -- not struggle to read the words. Try reading a poem from Shel Silverstein's Runny Babbit and you will probably find yourself spending more effort figuring out the words and less attention is place on making meaning. This is what I think so many of our children go through. They can read the words, but so haltingly that they are unable to pay much attention to meaning. And, when students read text with appropriate expression, phrasing, emphasis, pausing and all the other prosodic cues that linguists talk about they are giving evidence that the are making meaning with their voice. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. I have a study in the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy where we showed a significant and substantial correlation between fluency and 9th graders' (from an urban school district) performance on Ohio's High School Graduation Test. I now have study that I sent for review where we found a strong correlation between fluency and comprehension for 3rd, 5th, and 7th graders in Omaha. Moreover, the magnitude of the correlation did not decrease as the students got older -- it remained remarkably high through the grades. Correlation is not causation. But we are now coming out with work that shows that appropriate instruction in fluency can lead to improvements (sometime breathtaking) in comprehension and overall reading achievement for students in 4th grade through high school (check out The Reading Teacher, Oct 2004; Reading Psychology, fall 2007 for two studies that have demonstrated these gains). David Liben in Vermont has been doing some excellent work that has shown similar effects among older high school students. I guess I've said enough for now. Fluency can be a troubling concept -- I agree; but please don't decide that it is worthless because of the way some experts recommend it be taught.If done appropriately, I think (I know from my own clinical and classroom work) that it can be life saver for many students. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoe Jackson Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:35 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable input. Zoe On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 09:10 PM, elaine garan wrote: I'm not Tim, but I'll jump in here with a thought that might put your experience in a different perspective. Do you think it's possible that when he's reading aloud, he's so focused on how he sounds that he isn't thinking about what he's reading? This happens to me. When I'm reading in front of an audience, very often, I have no idea of what I've read. Maybe this is a sign that he's a mature reader. How often do any of us read aloud? How often do we worry about how fluently we read or how we sound? And when we do worry about that, what happens to our comprehension? Most of us do most of our reading silently. Beyond beginning reading, beyond first grade, there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension. In fact, fluency (in terms of a focus on wpm and even prosody) can actually interfere with comprehension because the reader is thinking about that performance aspect instead of meaning, especially if he or she is being timed. . The research supports that. So maybe this boy is a fluent as he needs to be. And if he's reading silently with comprehension, then why worry about how he sounds when he reads aloud since most of mature reading and even reading for tests is silent anyway? On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 05:53 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes he can. When he reads aloud he rereads constantly and has hardly any comprehension. If I ask him to read a page silently and tell me what it's about he can
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable input. Zoe Thank you. The part that drives me crazy is that fluency has, as you said, become this HUGE bandwagon. What's amazing is that the federal research itself, to say nothing of our own common sense and our own professional observation of children supports all the hoopla. It really doesn't. Some time back, I posted the conclusions that Melanie Kuhn drew after her research on fluency. Kuhn has worked with Steven Stahl (NRP contributor and the person who wrote the fluency chapter in The Voice of Evidence explaining the Fluency section of the NRP report). What she found was that when she trained a group of struggling first grade readers focusing on fluency-- repeated readings, echo readings etc-- and compared the results to a group where she emphasized a lot of reading (they read many more books)-- both groups (the fluency and the wide reading group-- BOTH improved in fluency. However, the fluency group did NOT improve in comprehension. That is a hugely important finding. It is repeated over and over again in the research. Kuhn concluded that if we focus on fluency we give kids the message that reading is about word recognition and FLUENCY) and they put their attention on that instead of text meaning. Here is the quote from the Kuhn study. I have the quotes from Steven Stahl's chapter on the fluency section of the NRP in my new book. I'd post them, but t's very hard for me to cut and paste sections of the book because it's in a pdf file (my final book) and the formatting is really weird. Therefore, anything I post from my book, I have to essentially rewrite so the formatting works and it takes a lot of time. Again, this could probably get me burned at the stake in the current political climate, but I truly believe that the very second we start timing kids reading, we give kids the wrong message. We tell them it's about speed. It doesn't matter what our words are-- take out a stopwatch and you're screaming Read fast. Fast, Fast. Here are Kuhn's conclusions. I think fluency does and should occur naturally, though lots of reading and talk about books and modeling and readers theater. Fluency should not be the focus not through direct training if the kids know that's what we're doing. Kuhn's and a lot of other research supports that conclusion. It's worth reading and thinking about. Anyway, here are Kuhn's conclusions, confirming what many of you have posted here about the mystery of the boy who could comprehend silently, but not when reading aloud. Because the FOOR (Focus On Fluency group) approach incorporated significant amounts of repetition, students may have seen word recognition and expression as the dominant focus. While the students enjoyed the stories selected, each story, or portion of a story, was reread several times. Given this pattern, it is possible that, after the initial reading, the students focused their attention on expression and accurate word recognition rather than on the text's meaning. It is also possible that they brought this understanding to their posttests, resulting in gains in prosody and word recognition but not in comprehension. The wide-reading group, on the other hand, read a new book at each session. As a result, comprehension, expression, and word recognition may have been viewed as having equivalent importance. It could be that the students developed a broader implicit focus, one that included the understanding and enjoyment of the stories as well as the accurate and expressive reading of the text. It is equally possible that this focus carried over to the posttesting and led to the wide-reading group's growth in comprehension as well as in word recognition and prosody. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Thanks for this interesting discussion, Tim. I will now respectfully, find the quote about how the correlation between fluency and comprhension falls to near zero after the very beginning stages of reading. It is in my book. It is cited in Stahl's chapter in the NRP and I will reformat it and post it. Also, Tim-- I am not saying that kids who read laboriously are not hindered by the slow, word by word reading. I think where we would diverge in our approaches is I would say, model, allow the kid to do lots of reading but do NOT let the child for one second think it is about speed and even speed and intonation. I think the end result is the same-- in terms of how kids sound. The difference is in the way to get there and how they come to view reading. I don't think we totally disagree. I will now respectfully find the quote that says the correlation between fluency and comprehension drops to near zero. Thanks for posting, Tim. On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing more than teaching kids to read fast and faster. However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When children read words automatically or effortlessly they can use their good brain to make sense of what they read -- not struggle to read the words. Try reading a poem from Shel Silverstein's Runny Babbit and you will probably find yourself spending more effort figuring out the words and less attention is place on making meaning. This is what I think so many of our children go through. They can read the words, but so haltingly that they are unable to pay much attention to meaning. And, when students read text with appropriate expression, phrasing, emphasis, pausing and all the other prosodic cues that linguists talk about they are giving evidence that the are making meaning with their voice. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. I have a study in the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy where we showed a significant and substantial correlation between fluency and 9th graders' (from an urban school district) performance on Ohio's High School Graduation Test. I now have study that I sent for review where we found a strong correlation between fluency and comprehension for 3rd, 5th, and 7th graders in Omaha. Moreover, the magnitude of the correlation did not decrease as the students got older -- it remained remarkably high through the grades. Correlation is not causation. But we are now coming out with work that shows that appropriate instruction in fluency can lead to improvements (sometime breathtaking) in comprehension and overall reading achievement for students in 4th grade through high school (check out The Reading Teacher, Oct 2004; Reading Psychology, fall 2007 for two studies that have demonstrated these gains). David Liben in Vermont has been doing some excellent work that has shown similar effects among older high school students. I guess I've said enough for now. Fluency can be a troubling concept -- I agree; but please don't decide that it is worthless because of the way some experts recommend it be taught.If done appropriately, I think (I know from my own clinical and classroom work) that it can be life saver for many students. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoe Jackson Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:35 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable input. Zoe On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 09:10 PM, elaine garan wrote: I'm not Tim, but I'll jump in here with a thought that might put your experience in a different perspective. Do you think it's possible that when he's reading aloud, he's so focused on how he sounds that he isn't thinking about what he's reading? This happens to me. When I'm reading in front of an audience, very often, I have no idea of what I've read
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I agree with you whole heartedly Elaine. I think fluency is best taught by having kids listen to good fluent models and then giving them the chance to practice under the guidance of a teacher. The practice should be aimed at reading with expression and meaning and should include materials that are meant to be rehearsed and performed (poetry, songs, dialogues, monologues, scripts,etc.). I certainly know how frustrating this fluency business has become for so many teachers around the country and I can understand why they want to throw their hands up in the air and get rid of it.But I think it is up to all of us to take that kernel of a good idea that is fluency and make really make it work for kids. I remember reciting poetry, singing songs, doing plays in elem school with great fondness. I don't see children doing this much any more and it saddens me - this is the way to develop fluency I think. What really saddens me is that the memories that children today may have about school is preparing for tests, getting anxious about it, and trying to read as fast they can. Good thing it's Sunday -- sounds like I am speaking from a pulpit. Sorry about that. :) Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elaine garan Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 10:52 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Thanks for this interesting discussion, Tim. I will now respectfully, find the quote about how the correlation between fluency and comprhension falls to near zero after the very beginning stages of reading. It is in my book. It is cited in Stahl's chapter in the NRP and I will reformat it and post it. Also, Tim-- I am not saying that kids who read laboriously are not hindered by the slow, word by word reading. I think where we would diverge in our approaches is I would say, model, allow the kid to do lots of reading but do NOT let the child for one second think it is about speed and even speed and intonation. I think the end result is the same-- in terms of how kids sound. The difference is in the way to get there and how they come to view reading. I don't think we totally disagree. I will now respectfully find the quote that says the correlation between fluency and comprehension drops to near zero. Thanks for posting, Tim. On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing more than teaching kids to read fast and faster. However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When children read words automatically or effortlessly they can use their good brain to make sense of what they read -- not struggle to read the words. Try reading a poem from Shel Silverstein's Runny Babbit and you will probably find yourself spending more effort figuring out the words and less attention is place on making meaning. This is what I think so many of our children go through. They can read the words, but so haltingly that they are unable to pay much attention to meaning. And, when students read text with appropriate expression, phrasing, emphasis, pausing and all the other prosodic cues that linguists talk about they are giving evidence that the are making meaning with their voice. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. I have a study in the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy where we showed a significant and substantial correlation between fluency and 9th graders' (from an urban school district) performance on Ohio's High School Graduation Test. I now have study that I sent for review where we found a strong correlation between fluency and comprehension for 3rd, 5th, and 7th graders in Omaha. Moreover, the magnitude of the correlation did not decrease as the students got older -- it remained remarkably high through the grades. Correlation is not causation. But we are now coming out with work that shows that appropriate instruction in fluency can lead to improvements (sometime breathtaking) in comprehension and overall reading achievement for students in 4th grade through high school (check out The Reading Teacher, Oct 2004; Reading Psychology, fall 2007 for two studies that have demonstrated
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Elaine, I agree completely. So many of the activities that are suggested for addressing fluency as simply good teaching, good language play--and with the exception of repeated readings with a timer in hand--have been part of effective classroom practice for a long time. That is, until NCLB and scripted programs pushed some of it right out the door. It is not at all the activities I object to, but the subtle messaging that equates reading with oral performance. Lori On 7/8/07 8:52 AM, elaine garan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, Tim-- I am not saying that kids who read laboriously are not hindered by the slow, word by word reading. I think where we would diverge in our approaches is I would say, model, allow the kid to do lots of reading but do NOT let the child for one second think it is about speed and even speed and intonation. -- Lori Jackson District Literacy Coach Mentor Todd County School District Box 87 Mission SD 57555 http:www.tcsdk12.org ph. 605.856.2211 Literacies for All Summer Institute Literate Lives: A Human Right July 12-15, 2007 Louisville, Kentucky http://www.ncte.org/profdev/conv/wlu ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Thanks, Tim-- I'm glad we're not arguing!!! That's the tricky thing about discussions. It's hard to articulate ideas that may not totally converge with those of others without sounding confrontational especially to those you respect. So I'm grateful for this post and for pointing out the places where we converge in our thinking. Next I'm posting the quote from Stahl. I look forward to the publication of your research. Elaine On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:56 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I agree with you whole heartedly Elaine. I think fluency is best taught by having kids listen to good fluent models and then giving them the chance to practice under the guidance of a teacher. The practice should be aimed at reading with expression and meaning and should include materials that are meant to be rehearsed and performed (poetry, songs, dialogues, monologues, scripts,etc.). I certainly know how frustrating this fluency business has become for so many teachers around the country and I can understand why they want to throw their hands up in the air and get rid of it.But I think it is up to all of us to take that kernel of a good idea that is fluency and make really make it work for kids. I remember reciting poetry, singing songs, doing plays in elem school with great fondness. I don't see children doing this much any more and it saddens me - this is the way to develop fluency I think. What really saddens me is that the memories that children today may have about school is preparing for tests, getting anxious about it, and trying to read as fast they can. Good thing it's Sunday -- sounds like I am speaking from a pulpit. Sorry about that. :) Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elaine garan Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 10:52 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Thanks for this interesting discussion, Tim. I will now respectfully, find the quote about how the correlation between fluency and comprhension falls to near zero after the very beginning stages of reading. It is in my book. It is cited in Stahl's chapter in the NRP and I will reformat it and post it. Also, Tim-- I am not saying that kids who read laboriously are not hindered by the slow, word by word reading. I think where we would diverge in our approaches is I would say, model, allow the kid to do lots of reading but do NOT let the child for one second think it is about speed and even speed and intonation. I think the end result is the same-- in terms of how kids sound. The difference is in the way to get there and how they come to view reading. I don't think we totally disagree. I will now respectfully find the quote that says the correlation between fluency and comprehension drops to near zero. Thanks for posting, Tim. On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing more than teaching kids to read fast and faster. However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When children read words automatically or effortlessly they can use their good brain to make sense of what they read -- not struggle to read the words. Try reading a poem from Shel Silverstein's Runny Babbit and you will probably find yourself spending more effort figuring out the words and less attention is place on making meaning. This is what I think so many of our children go through. They can read the words, but so haltingly that they are unable to pay much attention to meaning. And, when students read text with appropriate expression, phrasing, emphasis, pausing and all the other prosodic cues that linguists talk about they are giving evidence that the are making meaning with their voice. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. I have a study in the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy where we showed a significant and substantial correlation between fluency and 9th graders' (from an urban school district) performance on Ohio's High School Graduation Test. I now have study that I sent for review where we found a strong correlation between fluency and comprehension for 3rd, 5th, and 7th graders in Omaha
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
.If done appropriately, I think (I know from my own clinical and classroom work) that it can be life saver for many students. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoe Jackson Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:35 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable input. Zoe On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 09:10 PM, elaine garan wrote: I'm not Tim, but I'll jump in here with a thought that might put your experience in a different perspective. Do you think it's possible that when he's reading aloud, he's so focused on how he sounds that he isn't thinking about what he's reading? This happens to me. When I'm reading in front of an audience, very often, I have no idea of what I've read. Maybe this is a sign that he's a mature reader. How often do any of us read aloud? How often do we worry about how fluently we read or how we sound? And when we do worry about that, what happens to our comprehension? Most of us do most of our reading silently. Beyond beginning reading, beyond first grade, there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension. In fact, fluency (in terms of a focus on wpm and even prosody) can actually interfere with comprehension because the reader is thinking about that performance aspect instead of meaning, especially if he or she is being timed. . The research supports that. So maybe this boy is a fluent as he needs to be. And if he's reading silently with comprehension, then why worry about how he sounds when he reads aloud since most of mature reading and even reading for tests is silent anyway? On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 05:53 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes he can. When he reads aloud he rereads constantly and has hardly any comprehension. If I ask him to read a page silently and tell me what it's about he can. He's a mystery. Sue ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 between fluency and comprehension for older students.Not huge, but not insignificant either. Fluency instruction should not be aimed to get kids thinking about fluency (although unfortunately that happens to be the case in many instances) -- rather I think fluency instruction should be aimed at getting students so fluent that all they have to think about it meaning. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elaine garan Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:22 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. luency Ok, here are the quotes from Steven Stahl, from the Voice of Evidence. That book was, as you know, written by members and contributors of the NRP to help teachers put the findings into practice. It was dedicated to Reid Lyon. It was supported with funding from the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. Stahl, confirms and I believe, cites the findings from Kuhn's study. So, here respectfully, are part of Stahl's summary of the research on the relationship between fluency and comprehension. I think this is important especially when we put it in the perspective of Kuhn's studies and all the research that converges with her findings. There's more-- Jay Samuels (chair of the NRP Fluency section) agrees but a lot of what he's done is in opposition to DIBELS and I don't want to open that can of worms again! The following quotes are from National Reading Panel contributor Steven Stahl's chapter on fluency in the federally approved book The Voice of Evidence in Reading Research: Oral reading accuracy is related to comprehension only in first and second grades with the correlations in third grade and beyond falling to near zero (p. 190). Sometimes children can read accurately but do not understand what they read (p. 188). Teaching children simply to say isolated words faster does not seem to improve reading comprehension. A number of studies have examined teaching children to say words . . . . faster. Although all found that children's passage reading fluency improved, NONE found differences in comprehension between the study group and the control group (p. 189). Again, I am not arguing that laborious reading hinders kids' comprehension especially if we're forcing them to read aloud. But I am saying, respectfully and the research confirms that as soon as we train kids to think about fluency, they do what we are telling them is important and they lose the focus on comprehension. However, if we focus on comprehension, fluency will come and kids will be as fluent as they need to be. As you noted, correlation is not causation. On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing more than teaching kids to read fast and faster. However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When children read words automatically or effortlessly they can use their good brain to make sense of what they read -- not struggle to read the words. Try reading a poem from Shel Silverstein's Runny Babbit and you will probably find yourself spending more effort figuring out the words and less attention is place on making meaning. This is what I think so many of our children go through. They can read the words, but so haltingly that they are unable to pay much attention to meaning. And, when students read text with appropriate expression, phrasing, emphasis, pausing and all the other prosodic cues that linguists talk about they are giving evidence that the are making meaning with their voice. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. I have a study in the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy where we showed a significant and substantial correlation between fluency and 9th graders' (from an urban
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Elaine: Not arguing at all -- I think it is important to hear how others think about things and then to write in response. For me, the writing helps me articulate and clarify my own thinking on things. I appreciate your comments very much Elaine, as well as everyone else who has written. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elaine garan Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:17 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Thanks, Tim-- I'm glad we're not arguing!!! That's the tricky thing about discussions. It's hard to articulate ideas that may not totally converge with those of others without sounding confrontational especially to those you respect. So I'm grateful for this post and for pointing out the places where we converge in our thinking. Next I'm posting the quote from Stahl. I look forward to the publication of your research. Elaine On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:56 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I agree with you whole heartedly Elaine. I think fluency is best taught by having kids listen to good fluent models and then giving them the chance to practice under the guidance of a teacher. The practice should be aimed at reading with expression and meaning and should include materials that are meant to be rehearsed and performed (poetry, songs, dialogues, monologues, scripts,etc.). I certainly know how frustrating this fluency business has become for so many teachers around the country and I can understand why they want to throw their hands up in the air and get rid of it.But I think it is up to all of us to take that kernel of a good idea that is fluency and make really make it work for kids. I remember reciting poetry, singing songs, doing plays in elem school with great fondness. I don't see children doing this much any more and it saddens me - this is the way to develop fluency I think. What really saddens me is that the memories that children today may have about school is preparing for tests, getting anxious about it, and trying to read as fast they can. Good thing it's Sunday -- sounds like I am speaking from a pulpit. Sorry about that. :) Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elaine garan Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 10:52 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Thanks for this interesting discussion, Tim. I will now respectfully, find the quote about how the correlation between fluency and comprhension falls to near zero after the very beginning stages of reading. It is in my book. It is cited in Stahl's chapter in the NRP and I will reformat it and post it. Also, Tim-- I am not saying that kids who read laboriously are not hindered by the slow, word by word reading. I think where we would diverge in our approaches is I would say, model, allow the kid to do lots of reading but do NOT let the child for one second think it is about speed and even speed and intonation. I think the end result is the same-- in terms of how kids sound. The difference is in the way to get there and how they come to view reading. I don't think we totally disagree. I will now respectfully find the quote that says the correlation between fluency and comprehension drops to near zero. Thanks for posting, Tim. On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing more than teaching kids to read fast and faster. However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When children read words automatically or effortlessly they can use their good brain to make sense of what they read -- not struggle to read the words. Try reading a poem from Shel Silverstein's Runny Babbit and you will probably find yourself spending more effort figuring out the words and less attention is place on making meaning. This is what I think so many of our children go through. They can read the words, but so haltingly that they are unable to pay much attention to meaning. And, when students
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 between fluency and comprehension for older students.Not huge, but not insignificant either Tim. I'd love to see the studies you refer to. And again, as you've pointed out, correlation is not causation and therefore, it is entirely possible and maybe even likely, that comprehension is influencing fluency-- or at the very least, the relationship is reciprocal rather than it's fluency that's influencing comprehension, right? It's hard for me to comment since I haven't seen the studies you refer to. Can you post or send them? Thanks/ This is a fascinating discussion. Oh and I would add, that the big (newer) federal research study on ELL's also states that a big part of the problem with reading instruction for ELL's is the focus (I almost wrote phocus accidentally) on surface skills so ELL's sound really good and appear to be about equal with their English first peers until around third grade when the curriculum shifts the focus to comprehension. Chall found this also and thus we began to the now notorious fourth grade slump. Then the kids (in the federal study on Minority Children and Youth) fail miserably because their reading instruction has focused almost entirely on phonics and other surface skills without the deeper level thinking and text interaction that so many here on MOT advocate for. There are many vital quotes from this study (in my book and you can also get them online)--Diane August has done a lot to promote the findings from this federal study. Those findings I believe are very important to the focus of MOT and what so many of you advocate about comprehension. Ok, I'm going to quit clogging up people's emails now and get back to the articles I'm writing and have been procrastinating on writing. Thanks for a really, really good discussion and to all of you for sharing your experiences and thoughts. Elaine On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 07:26 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 between fluency and comprehension for older students.Not huge, but not insignificant either. Fluency instruction should not be aimed to get kids thinking about fluency (although unfortunately that happens to be the case in many instances) -- rather I think fluency instruction should be aimed at getting students so fluent that all they have to think about it meaning. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elaine garan Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:22 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. luency Ok, here are the quotes from Steven Stahl, from the Voice of Evidence. That book was, as you know, written by members and contributors of the NRP to help teachers put the findings into practice. It was dedicated to Reid Lyon. It was supported with funding from the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. Stahl, confirms and I believe, cites the findings from Kuhn's study. So, here respectfully, are part of Stahl's summary of the research on the relationship between fluency and comprehension. I think this is important especially when we put it in the perspective of Kuhn's studies and all the research that converges with her findings. There's more-- Jay Samuels (chair of the NRP Fluency section) agrees but a lot of what he's done is in opposition to DIBELS and I don't want to open that can of worms again! The following quotes are from National Reading Panel contributor Steven Stahl's chapter on fluency in the federally approved book The Voice of Evidence in Reading Research: Oral reading accuracy is related to comprehension only in first and second grades with the correlations in third grade and beyond falling to near zero (p. 190). Sometimes children can read accurately but do not understand what they read (p. 188). Teaching children simply to say isolated words faster does not seem to improve reading comprehension. A number of studies have examined teaching children to say words . . . . faster. Although
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Tim, After reading innumerable posts on this and other sites about the various opinions out there about fluency, I've come to the conclusion that the concerns are more about instructional practices and academic decisions that are made based on a fluency score. In my opinion there are administrative decisions made at both the school and system levels without full understanding of the fluency piece of the literacy puzzle. (Folks jumping on the bandwagon so they can say they have addressed it.) I also think that there are teachers who don't have a clear understanding of what fluency is, how to monitor it, and how to make instructional decisions based on student performance. I think fluency is a complicated concept that requires a deep knowledge of the student, perhaps deeper than many teachers have time to investigate. (Which is not the teacher's fault.) Now, before everyone on this list gets their knickers in a knot, understand that I put myself in the category of teachers needing more knowledge to design and implement appropriate instruction for fluency. (Or maybe you all know this already.) Because I believe that a balanced approach is best for my students, it is challenging for me to really feel competent on any one component of literacy. My way of coping with this is to take one component per year to focus on, and do my best with the rest. Zero correlation between fluency and comprehension? When a student reads fluently, and I'm not talking about speed, you know they get it. Listen to a student who doesn't read fluently, it's painful because you know they don't. When I hear older students read who are not fluent it really makes me sad because I know how much richer their lives could be if they were fluent. And I suspect they know it, too. As far as the student who has difficulty reading orally, but can comprehend when reading silently, I think, as Sue stated, that there is something else going on with his learning (and some kind of processing problem could be the issue, but it needs specialized testing and attention). This does not need to be ignored, because he has a learning difference that needs to be addressed in order for him to have continued academic success. I don't think Tim, or any of the other folks who have expertise in this area, expect kids to read as though they are actors. I think that is as unreasonable as expecting break neck speed in oral reading. I think we are looking for kids to read with a reasonable simulation of natural speech, at a pace that others could understand. Somehow administrators, principals, superintendents, and school boards need to get this message. The message needs to be given in a way that addresses the complexity in a simple yet elegant manner. (I have no idea how to then take this to legislators, but they need to hear it, too.) I am so grateful that Tim and Elaine are here for us to glean from their expertise. Their suggestions for appropriate instruction are carefully crafted, address various learning styles, and provide for differentiation in approach and abilties. They back up their claims with research that they have done, as well as research that has been conducted independently. Their participation here is quite astounding, and I think is a credit to this group. Both of them have been very gracious, generous, and forthcoming with their information and advice. Joy/NC/4 [EMAIL PROTECTED] How children learn is as important as what they learn: process and content go hand in hand. http://www.responsiveclassroom.org - Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Hi Tim, I don´t think anyone is saying that fluency is worthless. I think the question was about a child who can read silently with comprehension but reads haltingly aloud. I still believe that there is no cause to worry in this case. To me, it´s the same issue that comes up when people say that until children can name the letters of the alphabet and the sounds of those letters, they shouldn´t be writing. I´m still not convinced that reading aloud fluently is important if the child reads silently (probably fluently) and with comprehension. As others have noted, reading aloud is a performance and some people don´t do well when they´re on stage. Any thoughts? Elisa Waingort Calgary, Canada Fluency can be a troubling concept -- I agree; but please don't decide that it is worthless because of the way some experts recommend it be taught.If done appropriately, I think (I know from my own clinical and classroom work) that it can be life saver for many students. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoe Jackson Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 8:35 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable input. Zoe On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 09:10 PM, elaine garan wrote: I'm not Tim, but I'll jump in here with a thought that might put your experience in a different perspective. Do you think it's possible that when he's reading aloud, he's so focused on how he sounds that he isn't thinking about what he's reading? This happens to me. When I'm reading in front of an audience, very often, I have no idea of what I've read. Maybe this is a sign that he's a mature reader. How often do any of us read aloud? How often do we worry about how fluently we read or how we sound? And when we do worry about that, what happens to our comprehension? Most of us do most of our reading silently. Beyond beginning reading, beyond first grade, there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension. In fact, fluency (in terms of a focus on wpm and even prosody) can actually interfere with comprehension because the reader is thinking about that performance aspect instead of meaning, especially if he or she is being timed. . The research supports that. So maybe this boy is a fluent as he needs to be. And if he's reading silently with comprehension, then why worry about how he sounds when he reads aloud since most of mature reading and even reading for tests is silent anyway? On Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 05:53 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes he can. When he reads aloud he rereads constantly and has hardly any comprehension. If I ask him to read a page silently and tell me what it's about he can. He's a mystery. Sue ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
BINGO! Comprehension influences fluency! Get the kids to comprehend, and you will hear it! elaine garan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . . . And again, as you've pointed out, correlation is not causation and therefore, it is entirely possible and maybe even likely, that comprehension is influencing fluency-- or at the very least, the relationship is reciprocal rather than it's fluency that's influencing comprehension, right? Joy/NC/4 [EMAIL PROTECTED] How children learn is as important as what they learn: process and content go hand in hand. http://www.responsiveclassroom.org - No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several years' experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as an example. I see fluency as a performance. I have always told my kids I was a frustrated actress, and my novel or book is my chance to perform. With experience, as Tim said, with poems, songs, discussions, etc, the fluency is unavoidable. I feel reading a nonsensical passage, reading a passage cold, and timing a kid reading adds undue pressure on the reader and does not give an accurate measure of anything. The comprehension is the goal. I make silly metaphors between something the kids relate to and reading. So I do it automatically. Reading I think of as similar to learning to skate. At first I'm slow and awkward. With time, coaching, practice, and a few falls, I get better. Pretty soon I am smooth, fast, and efficient. Kim --- Kimberlee Hannan Department Chair Sequoia Middle School Fresno, California 93702 Laugh when you can, apologize when you should, let go of what you can't change, kiss slowly, play hard, forgive quickly, take chances, give everything, have no regrets.. Life's too short to be anything but happy. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:07 AM, kimberlee hannan wrote: I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several years' experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as an example. I see fluency as a performance... Frankly, I don't think we need research to back up everything we say and I'm tired of having my own classroom observations and experience tossed aside because some obscure research especially that research which is done by the company which wants to sell its product. says that this is the best way to do something. In the case of fluency, the problem as I see it is that for some people and that includes many administrators and curriculum directors overseeing assessment committees . fluency comes down to speed. We can talk and talk and talk on this listserv about how fluency includes prosidy or whatever you want to call it, but for those looking at numbers, it often comes down simply to speed. More words per minute with no mistakes = higher fluency level. I'm not buying it. As a member of a district assessment committee a few years ago, when we were deciding on what would constitute proficiency for a variety of things, I remember having to argue and argue and argue unfortunately to no avail to look at more than number of words per minute in assessing fluency. Renee (who's in kind of a mood) You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within himself. ~ Galileo ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
On 7/8/07 10:07 AM, kimberlee hannan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several years' experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as an example. I see fluency as a performance. I have always told my kids I was a frustrated actress, and my novel or book is my chance to perform. With experience, as Tim said, with poems, songs, discussions, etc, the fluency is unavoidable. I feel reading a nonsensical passage, reading a passage cold, and timing a kid reading adds undue pressure on the reader and does not give an accurate measure of anything. The comprehension is the goal. I think all of the discussion points to the need to understand the messages children get from the experiences we provide. They interpret in unique ways depending on their own unique literacy histories. So no matter what research says in some sense Combining results to try to generalize about any particular strategy or approachwe still always have to take it back to individual kids and what we do with the knowledge we have of them in something as complex as reading and writing and so on!!! I remember a series of answers I got in my early fall interviews with students who all spoke to me about how they understood reading aloud as compared to silent reading, how they felt about it and so on. John told me he comprehended better when he read aloud as it made him focus on what he was reading. His mind wandered when he read silently. We did go on to talk about ways to focus in silent reading as well of course. Rory told me she couldn't understand a thing when she read aloud even though she enjoyed it. She was a wonderful little actress - literally - did drama outside of school and her dad was a drama professor! She read beautifully - with wonderful expression - yet still said she couldn't comprehend. Now she must have comprehended at some level to get the interpretation so well. But it evidently didn't transfer to short term memory/recall or whatever. Abigail didn't read aloud fluently though she comprehended in very sophisticated ways. It made her feel like a poor reader even though we discussed in depth her accomplishments as a reader, what reading realy means, and so on. She had learning disabilities and was in special education though she was very bright. (the old discrepancy criteria...we won't go into that here.) You could see this in her spelling. She also had huge problems memorizing her multiplication tables. Ugg. Anyway She wanted to practice! And did improve through readers theater, choral reading and all. I would say flexibility in all this is key as well as knowing our students well including hearing their opinions and perspectives! Sally ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Two years ago, I worked with a fourth grade class of struggling readers who where from 6 months to 3 years below grade level at the start of the year. (Let it be said here, the regular classroom teacher was also struggling and on an assistance plan. Part of my job was to help him develop more effective teaching techniques.) I modified a process that I read about in one of Tim's books. The first day, we read the text for the week to the students. Jennifer, Thank you for sharing this plan.? I'm wondering what texts you used - fiction, nonfiction, poetry, etc.? Martha -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 1:31 pm Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Alright, Tim and Elaine...I am going to be brave and post a few thoughts here. I am a fan of both of you...and I can see more than a little common ground. Somewhere, I read that a true definition of fluency INCLUDES comprehension. If we say a fluent reader must also need to comprehend, then we can take the research that seems contradictory and it makes more sense. When I am working with my struggling readers with recorded books (to build word recognition automaticity) I spend an even greater amount of time teaching them the comprehension strategies. Every classroom I walk into, every colleague that gets model lessons from me, knows that I make very clear to students that the basic skills of reading--the phonics, fluency, are the means to an end and the end is comprehension. It is all about balance and too often, I think, when we as professionals lose that sense of balance, we get into trouble. If you will permit me, I would like to share a personal story here... Two years ago, I worked with a fourth grade class of struggling readers who where from 6 months to 3 years below grade level at the start of the year. (Let it be said here, the regular classroom teacher was also struggling and on an assistance plan. Part of my job was to help him develop more effective teaching techniques.) I modified a process that I read about in one of Tim's books. The first day, we read the text for the week to the students. I modeled a comprehension strategy and we had a rather deep discussion about the author's purpose, the main ideas, vocabulary, character traits or the author's language choices.We used graphic organizers to make text structures explicit. On the second day, we read the text again...but it was an echo read. This time, I made explicit a fluency component, such as observing punctuation, phrasing, etc, and then tied it back into the comprehension strategies we worked on the day before. (i.ehow does changing the intonation of what a character says change the meaning). On the third day, the students read with a buddy and as they read, they were to keep a pack of post its by their side. If they noticed something interesting or important they were to mark it and we had a share session afterwards. Again, while they knew they wanted to improve their accuracy, the comprehension aspect was the end goal. On the fourth day,we would practice the story for a performance.The students self evaluated their oral fluency based on a rubric. On Friday, we performed the piece for an audience and I sent the piece home as a lucky listener project. (The kids read it to as many people as they could find who would sign the back of it. The kids goal was to read it to more people than anyone else.) After about 6 months of this, the students were given the SRI-Scholastic Reading Inventory and most of the kids made huge gains. I have been told that 100 lexiles was a year's growth on this comprehension test. These kids made an average of 400 lexiles growth. When the kids read orally at their instructional level and I checked reading rates, I was interested to find growth but it was not exactly within grade level norms. Yet on our state test here in Maryland, I had 74% of them meet proficiency in reading comprehension. What this tells me, is that by teaching fluency as a means to comprehension, and by making clear that the end goal is comprehension, not simply reading faster, we can improve comprehension over all. Jennifer Maryland In a message dated 7/8/2007 10:42:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 between fluency and comprehension for older students. Not huge, but not insignificant either Tim. I'd love to see the studies you refer to. And again, as you've pointed out, correlation is not causation and therefore, it is entirely possible and maybe even likely, that comprehension is influencing fluency-- or at the very least, the relationship is reciprocal rather
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Kimberlee ... the wpm part of the DRA2 worries me for the same reason -Original Message- From: Renee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 1:36 pm Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:07 AM, kimberlee hannan wrote: I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several years' experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as an example. I see fluency as a performance... Frankly, I don't think we need research to back up everything we say and I'm tired of having my own classroom observations and experience tossed aside because some obscure research especially that research which is done by the company which wants to sell its product. says that this is the best way to do something. In the case of fluency, the problem as I see it is that for some people and that includes many administrators and curriculum directors overseeing assessment committees . fluency comes down to speed. We can talk and talk and talk on this listserv about how fluency includes prosidy or whatever you want to call it, but for those looking at numbers, it often comes down simply to speed. More words per minute with no mistakes = higher fluency level. I'm not buying it. As a member of a district assessment committee a few years ago, when we were deciding on what would constitute proficiency for a variety of things, I remember having to argue and argue and argue unfortunately to no avail to look at more than number of words per minute in assessing fluency. Renee (who's in kind of a mood) You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within himself. ~ Galileo ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Hello Elaine and Tim, Regarding Elaine's quote from Steven Stahl “Oral reading accuracy is related to comprehension only in first and second grades with the correlations in third grade and beyond falling to near zero” (p. 190). Question: Is it significant that, at least in this quote, he used the word accuracy rather than fluency? Seems to me that reading with feeling/intonation is a different thing than accuracy -- related, but different (same for speed, as well). What does the research -- Tim's and Elaine's -- say about intonation? Enjoying this. Dave Middlebrook The Textmapping Project A resource for teachers improving reading comprehension skills instruction. www.textmapping.org | Please share this site with your colleagues! USA: (609) 771-1781 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: elaine garan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. luency Ok, here are the quotes from Steven Stahl, from the Voice of Evidence. That book was, as you know, written by members and contributors of the NRP to help teachers put the findings into practice. It was dedicated to Reid Lyon. It was supported with funding from the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. Stahl, confirms and I believe, cites the findings from Kuhn's study. So, here respectfully, are part of Stahl's summary of the research on the relationship between fluency and comprehension. I think this is important especially when we put it in the perspective of Kuhn's studies and all the research that converges with her findings. There's more-- Jay Samuels (chair of the NRP Fluency section) agrees but a lot of what he's done is in opposition to DIBELS and I don't want to open that can of worms again! The following quotes are from National Reading Panel contributor Steven Stahl’s chapter on fluency in the federally approved book The Voice of Evidence in Reading Research: “Oral reading accuracy is related to comprehension only in first and second grades with the correlations in third grade and beyond falling to near zero” (p. 190). “Sometimes children can read accurately but do not understand what they read” (p. 188). “Teaching children simply to say isolated words faster does not seem to improve reading comprehension. A number of studies have examined teaching children to say words . . . . faster. Although all found that children’s passage reading fluency improved, NONE found differences in comprehension between the study group and the control group” (p. 189). Again, I am not arguing that laborious reading hinders kids' comprehension especially if we're forcing them to read aloud. But I am saying, respectfully and the research confirms that as soon as we train kids to think about fluency, they do what we are telling them is important and they lose the focus on comprehension. However, if we focus on comprehension, fluency will come and kids will be as fluent as they need to be. As you noted, correlation is not causation. On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing more than teaching kids to read fast and faster. However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When children read words automatically or effortlessly they can use their good brain to make sense of what they read -- not struggle to read the words. Try reading a poem from Shel Silverstein's Runny Babbit and you will probably find yourself spending more effort figuring out the words and less attention is place on making meaning. This is what I think so many of our children go through. They can read the words, but so haltingly that they are unable to pay much attention to meaning. And, when students read text with appropriate expression, phrasing, emphasis, pausing and all the other prosodic cues that linguists talk about they are giving evidence that the are making meaning with their voice. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. I have a study in the Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy where we showed a significant and substantial correlation between fluency and 9th graders' (from an urban school district) performance on Ohio's High School Graduation Test. I now
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Question: Is it significant that, at least in this quote, he used the word accuracy rather than fluency? Seems to me that reading with feeling/intonation is a different thing than accuracy -- related, but different (same for speed, as well). What does the research -- Tim's and Elaine's -- say about intonation? Good point. I'll get out the book and get back to you. My sense of reading that chapter about 50 times is that he is referring to intonation too. His whole point was that fluency (in its broadest sense) doesn't equal comprehension as so many (not Tim!) have interpreted it to mean. However, I have to go back into it and see what he means in that particular sentence. Thanks for pointing this out On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 11:54 AM, Dave Middlebrook wrote: Hello Elaine and Tim, Regarding Elaine's quote from Steven Stahl “Oral reading accuracy is related to comprehension only in first and second grades with the correlations in third grade and beyond falling to near zero” (p. 190). Question: Is it significant that, at least in this quote, he used the word accuracy rather than fluency? Seems to me that reading with feeling/intonation is a different thing than accuracy -- related, but different (same for speed, as well). What does the research -- Tim's and Elaine's -- say about intonation? Enjoying this. Dave Middlebrook The Textmapping Project A resource for teachers improving reading comprehension skills instruction. www.textmapping.org | Please share this site with your colleagues! USA: (609) 771-1781 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: elaine garan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. luency Ok, here are the quotes from Steven Stahl, from the Voice of Evidence. That book was, as you know, written by members and contributors of the NRP to help teachers put the findings into practice. It was dedicated to Reid Lyon. It was supported with funding from the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. Stahl, confirms and I believe, cites the findings from Kuhn's study. So, here respectfully, are part of Stahl's summary of the research on the relationship between fluency and comprehension. I think this is important especially when we put it in the perspective of Kuhn's studies and all the research that converges with her findings. There's more-- Jay Samuels (chair of the NRP Fluency section) agrees but a lot of what he's done is in opposition to DIBELS and I don't want to open that can of worms again! The following quotes are from National Reading Panel contributor Steven Stahl’s chapter on fluency in the federally approved book The Voice of Evidence in Reading Research: “Oral reading accuracy is related to comprehension only in first and second grades with the correlations in third grade and beyond falling to near zero” (p. 190). “Sometimes children can read accurately but do not understand what they read” (p. 188). “Teaching children simply to say isolated words faster does not seem to improve reading comprehension. A number of studies have examined teaching children to say words . . . . faster. Although all found that children’s passage reading fluency improved, NONE found differences in comprehension between the study group and the control group” (p. 189). Again, I am not arguing that laborious reading hinders kids' comprehension especially if we're forcing them to read aloud. But I am saying, respectfully and the research confirms that as soon as we train kids to think about fluency, they do what we are telling them is important and they lose the focus on comprehension. However, if we focus on comprehension, fluency will come and kids will be as fluent as they need to be. As you noted, correlation is not causation. On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:27 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing more than teaching kids to read fast and faster. However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When children read words automatically or effortlessly they can use their good brain to make sense of what they read -- not struggle to read the words. Try reading a poem from Shel Silverstein's Runny Babbit and you will probably find yourself spending more effort figuring out the words and less attention is place on making meaning. This is what I think so many
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I think that we can understand comprehension at a word level, a sentence level, a paragraph level and then at the chapter or whole text level. I have seen lots of kids who know when they make word rec errors and can correct them using meaning and syntax at the sentence level, but who can't comprehend the whole text. Often these kids are the ones who can't synthesize ideas as they read...meaning for them, is a series of unconnected thoughts...they can often answer easy literal questions about some details, but if you ask for main ideas, messages, then they can't do that. I also have been reading an IRA publication called Why Johnny Couldn't Read---and How He Learned. The author studied successful adults who struggled with reading in school but read and comprehend well as adults. Interestingly, many of these adults still have poor phonemic awareness, spelling and phonics knowledge but comprehend at high levels. A common thread with all of these successful adult readers is that someone, a teacher or a parent, got them books that were of high interest to them. They learned to read in that genre first and then could apply what they learned (some of them) in other genres. Fluency was also often field dependent. The book described a scientist could fluently read difficult texts in his field but not a novel. This is a relatively new idea to me, but it makes sense. If you have schema for a particular genre, it could pull you through and help you read more fluently. Jennifer Maryland In a message dated 7/8/2007 1:42:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now she must have comprehended at some level to get the interpretation so well. But it evidently didn't transfer to short term memory/recall or whatever. ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I may be speaking out of ignorance, here. But, maybe I need a specific definition of fluency. In the measured definitions of DRA, HM, or any other testing, I see it as speed. When you time something, speed is a factor. However, as I think about it, to be fluent in speaking a foreign language, say, fluency refers to the ability to make oneself understood in intonation and smooth flow. IF that's the definition, then yes, fluency is crucial. I can hear whether a child understands. In fact I always write in my notes, reads for understanding if I hear it. If a child reads painfully slow and monotone, I know we've got a problem. If a child reads so fast I can't understand the words, we also have a problem. Smiles, Kim --- Kimberlee Hannan Department Chair Sequoia Middle School Fresno, California 93702 Laugh when you can, apologize when you should, let go of what you can't change, kiss slowly, play hard, forgive quickly, take chances, give everything, have no regrets.. Life's too short to be anything but happy. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Nancy I have seen kids like this...I wonder how much schema he had for this reading? I am privileged to teach kids in school with lots of parent support and the kids come with lots of school-type background knowledge. Some of these kids comprehend things that they struggle through simply because they get enough out of it to pull in the right schema to fill in the gaps. I still think these kids will eventually struggle when they meet a text that has newer ideas. Jennifer Maryland In a message dated 7/8/2007 2:44:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At a conference, I went to a session by Stephen Trowbridge that showed a video of a boy of about ten slowly and painfully reading a book. At the end, he did a near perfect retell and answered several questions about what he had read. ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Elaine: Here is the reference to one study with high school kids: Rasinski, T., Padak, N., McKeon, C., Krug,-Wilfong, L., Friedauer, J., Heim, P. (2005) Is Reading Fluency a Key for Successful High School Reading? Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy, 49, 22-27. Although the correlations I posted earlier do not imply causation, the work we have done where fluency instruction leads to improvements in comprehension and reading achievement do suggest a causal relationship between fluency and comprehension and overall achievement. Here's a reference I have to share in that regard: Griffith, L. W., Rasinski, T. V. (2004). A focus on fluency: How one teacher incorporated fluency with her reading curriculum. The Reading Teacher, 58, 126- 137. Timothy Rasinski 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0649 Cell -- 330-962-6251 FAX 330-672-2025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] informational website: www.timrasinski.com professional development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ https://exchange.kent.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of elaine garan Sent: Sun 7/8/2007 11:48 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 between fluency and comprehension for older students.Not huge, but not insignificant either Tim. I'd love to see the studies you refer to. And again, as you've pointed out, correlation is not causation and therefore, it is entirely possible and maybe even likely, that comprehension is influencing fluency-- or at the very least, the relationship is reciprocal rather than it's fluency that's influencing comprehension, right? It's hard for me to comment since I haven't seen the studies you refer to. Can you post or send them? Thanks/ This is a fascinating discussion. Oh and I would add, that the big (newer) federal research study on ELL's also states that a big part of the problem with reading instruction for ELL's is the focus (I almost wrote phocus accidentally) on surface skills so ELL's sound really good and appear to be about equal with their English first peers until around third grade when the curriculum shifts the focus to comprehension. Chall found this also and thus we began to the now notorious fourth grade slump. Then the kids (in the federal study on Minority Children and Youth) fail miserably because their reading instruction has focused almost entirely on phonics and other surface skills without the deeper level thinking and text interaction that so many here on MOT advocate for. There are many vital quotes from this study (in my book and you can also get them online)--Diane August has done a lot to promote the findings from this federal study. Those findings I believe are very important to the focus of MOT and what so many of you advocate about comprehension. Ok, I'm going to quit clogging up people's emails now and get back to the articles I'm writing and have been procrastinating on writing. Thanks for a really, really good discussion and to all of you for sharing your experiences and thoughts. Elaine On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 07:26 AM, RASINSKI, TIMOTHY wrote: Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 between fluency and comprehension for older students.Not huge, but not insignificant either. Fluency instruction should not be aimed to get kids thinking about fluency (although unfortunately that happens to be the case in many instances) -- rather I think fluency instruction should be aimed at getting students so fluent that all they have to think about it meaning. Timothy Rasinski, Ph.D. Reading and Writing Center 404 White Hall Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 330-672-0649 Cell: 330-962-6251 Fax: 330-672-2025 Informational website: www.timrasinski.com Professional Development DVD: http://www.roadtocomprehension.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of elaine garan Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:22 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge concern with our struggling readers through high school. luency Ok, here are the quotes from Steven Stahl, from the Voice of Evidence. That book was, as you know, written by members
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I agree with you whole heartedly Elaine. I think fluency is best taught by having kids listen to good fluent models and then giving them the chance to practice under the guidance of a teacher. The practice should be aimed at reading with expression and meaning and should include materials that are meant to be rehearsed and performed (poetry, songs, dialogues, monologues, scripts,etc.). I certainly know how frustrating this fluency business has become for so many teachers around the country and I can understand why they want to throw their hands up in the air and get rid of it.But I think it is up to all of us to take that kernel of a good idea that is fluency and make really make it work for kids. I remember reciting poetry, singing songs, doing plays in elem school with great fondness. I don't see children doing this much any more and it saddens me - this is the way to develop fluency I think. Yes, that, and... quit TIMING it!! _ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69FORM=MGAC01 ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
Pat, you wrote unless he was reading something very high interest ---I think that that is the avenue to getting kids to read more---read something that they are interested in---and high interst material is available at all levels. We need to get administrators to buy into buying a variety of reading materials at all levels--- I think this goes back to the research on the reading lots versus focusing on fluency. Kid have to just read and read material that interests them at least in the beginning (K-5). Like Bill said earlier fluency is dependent on the type of material being read!!! I agree with you that we need to assess to check for progress. I want to believe that every child is fluent at their level and we need to explain to children what makes them fluent and work on having them become fluent at grade levelwe need to help kids understand what they know. For me this whole mosaic is more complex--we need to understand how everything workds into becoming a reader for a purpose. We read differently for different purposes. Reading is more like a spider web (each different and unique)---it's intricate with strings catching something but they need each other for strength--likewise a reader needs everything--fluency, phonics, schema, wonder I'm just saying everything that has been said before-- olga ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
On 7/8/07 2:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also have been reading an IRA publication called Why Johnny Couldn't Read---and How He Learned. The author studied successful adults who struggled with reading in school but read and comprehend well as adults. Interestingly, many of these adults still have poor phonemic awareness, spelling and phonics knowledge but comprehend at high levels. A common thread with all of these successful adult readers is that someone, a teacher or a parent, got them books that were of high interest to them. They learned to read in that genre first and then could apply what they learned (some of them) in other genres. Fluency was also often field dependent. The book described a scientist could fluently read difficult texts in his field but not a novel. This is a relatively new idea to me, but it makes sense. If you have schema for a particular genre, it could pull you through and help you read more fluently. Jennifer Maryland I read thisbook as well and it has pretty exciting implications I think! So glad you mentioned it. and I just reada paper submitted to the Journal of Literacy ResearchI'm peer reviewing it .which had a case study of one student with very similar results - QUITE EXCITING AND I HOPE IT WILL BE PUBLISHED AND SOON. The two studies together are quite important!!! Sally ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org. Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive.
Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for Tim
I have one more thought that's been bubbling around in my head. It goes along with what you say here, Beverlee and maybe expands on it a little. In addition to the messages we send kids by timing them, regardless of what WE are thinking, I'm wondering about the whole idea of words per minute. Words per minute is treated by some assessments as if it's some sort of an absolute. In other words that there is some north star of wpm-- and if a kid hits that mark, then she is fluent and can read with intonation then she comprehends or is adequately or inadequately fluent, right? If as so many of us have concluded, reading rate must vary with the text -- then how do we reconcile testing by wpm? How do measurements of wpm take into account individual differences any more than any standardization does? Furthermore, if a child has the background for the passage, then she might read it more fluently and with more comprehension than a child who is puzzling through because of lack of background knowledge. A good reader would do that. Slow down and think. Or slow down and savor a high interest text. On the other hand, a kid who doesn't read for meaning might race through without a thought to whether or not the passage makes sense or not. This is what the federal research says ELL's tend to do -- read beautifully and with intonation and sound wonderful without a clue as to what they read. Doesn't this render the idea of wpm even more arbitrary than the fact that it is set out there like it is some inviable truth. Isn't that what standardized tests of all sorts generally do? Take arbitrary facts, determine they are necessary knowledge and treat them as such even though they are decided by fallible humans with their own biases?. And who is to set the rate of how many wpm is acceptable for all kids (or the range of those wpm)--? See what I mean? And we can say we don't want to separate fluency (speed, accuracy and prosody) from comprehension but don't passages that exact an arbitrary measure such as wpm and treat that measure as if it were an absolute rather than as an arbitrary mark determined by someone somewhere-- do exactly that? An how authentic an assessment measure is a hothouse passage designed to measure wpm? Doesn't it also exclude the whole idea of interest as well as background knowledge? And doesn't training especially middle and high school kids to read aloud (even with intonation) detract from the ultimate goal of reading-- reading silently for meaning. I think the reading aloud aspect while convenient for measuring fluency and wpm detracts from the ultimate purpose of reading. Again, I'm going to repeat what I said some time back. Why do we measure for fluency at all? Why not measure for comprehension and then if that is low, then take measure to increase it including more reading and all the ideas for comprehension. And again, what we see with our problem readers here is not lack of fluency. We see kids who read not just quickly, but very well-- in terms of how they sound-- but are clueless when it comes to the big picture-- the macro meaning of the text rather than as someone pointed out-- the sentence and paragraph level comprehension. this is long and not real articulate but I'm still working it through in my mind. Thanks. Elaine On Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 04:11 PM, Beverlee Paul wrote: I am not saying that kids who read laboriously are not hindered by the slow, word by word reading. I think where we would diverge in our approaches is I would say, model, allow the kid to do lots of reading but do NOT let the child for one second think it is about speed and even speed and intonation. I think the end result is the same-- in terms of how kids sound. The difference is in the way to get there and how they come to view reading. I don't think we totally disagree. One thing I think we tend to forget that is SO important, is that we are always teaching kids--even when we forget or deny it. Every instructional decision we make teaches kids. Every ASSESSMENT decision we make teaches kids. It's pretty irrelevant what our sophisticated, educated minds tell us internally when we time kids. No matter our thoughts about comprehension/fluency. No matter our goals of prosody. No matter our lofty intents. It is ABSOLUTELY INESCAPABLE when a teacher/adult gets out a stopwatch that a child learns SPEED. Good grief! It really sends me to the boiling point of disbelief that anyone could possibly think that any normal child doesn't learn we want him to read FAST! If we brought out a mic, he'd read LOUD! If we brought out a metronome, he'd read rhythmically. In the post-NRP/NCLB era, our entire profession has become so disjointed and trivialized as we have attempted to reduce every skill/strategy/strand to smaller and smaller pieces so they can be measured and
