Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:55, Michael Leone wrote: From: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? or you haven't explained it well enough. You should feel lucky that you have this kind of free community-based support -- you'll never have it in the M$ world. There, you'll have to pay through the nose for tech support. You can There are free MS support options. There are free newsgroups, hosted by a news server at microsoft.com, and readble via any newsreader. And there are many free email lists, as well. Both of these are community help, augmented (in the case of the newsgroups) by advice from MS employees, just the way Mandrake employees monitor this list. Not to mention web searching thru MS's Knowledgebase, or on their TechNet site. Just setting the record straight. These lists are also heavily censored. I was once having a look at some messages in an Intel newsgroup when the topic of overclocking was raised. Intel eventually filtered out all messages with mentions of overclocking. I'm sure Microsoft would act in a similar way in similar circumstances. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
These lists are also heavily censored. I was once having a look at some messages in an Intel newsgroup when the topic of overclocking was raised. Intel eventually filtered out all messages with mentions of overclocking. I'm sure Microsoft would act in a similar way in similar circumstances. I'm not sure they would, since I have seen posts critical of MS, it's software and MS's practices. This still leaves the many mailing lists, and the serachable web pages. (altho I will admit that searching MS's Knowledgebase SUCKS, since it seems to have a mind of it's own, when it comes to indexing and cross-referencing :-)
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
On Tuesday 26 June 2001 07:48 am, you wrote: These lists are also heavily censored. I was once having a look at some messages in an Intel newsgroup when the topic of overclocking was raised. Intel eventually filtered out all messages with mentions of overclocking. I'm sure Microsoft would act in a similar way in similar circumstances. I'm not sure they would, since I have seen posts critical of MS, it's software and MS's practices. This still leaves the many mailing lists, and the serachable web pages. (altho I will admit that searching MS's Knowledgebase SUCKS, since it seems to have a mind of it's own, when it comes to indexing and cross-referencing :-) Heh...just like their sorry butt 'registry', in their sorry butt OS! LOL Now that I've put that 2 cents in, I can do thisWAHOOO!! YEEHAAA!!! Mmmwwaahahahaha!!! What was that you ask? I 'finally' got me a 'real' modem (USR 5686 External). It worked from the very first. I'm so derned tickled pink I did a little jig this mornin' !! But get thisthe software that came with it was made for Windblows (of course), and it can't recognize the modem!! LOL I'm getting a real kick out of that one! Anyway, now that I'm almost completely 'turned', I figured I'd get my piece in here. Take care and be well everyone...it's a great day!! John B -- Use Linux and feel the freedom!
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
Only the ones hosted on the company servers are censored. The vast majority of the help newsgroups for Windows are uncensored. Many have MS employees that offer help in them. Personally, I rather just do a google search and find the answers myself. On Monday 25 June 2001 23:28, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:55, Michael Leone wrote: From: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? or you haven't explained it well enough. You should feel lucky that you have this kind of free community-based support -- you'll never have it in the M$ world. There, you'll have to pay through the nose for tech support. You can There are free MS support options. There are free newsgroups, hosted by a news server at microsoft.com, and readble via any newsreader. And there are many free email lists, as well. Both of these are community help, augmented (in the case of the newsgroups) by advice from MS employees, just the way Mandrake employees monitor this list. Not to mention web searching thru MS's Knowledgebase, or on their TechNet site. Just setting the record straight. These lists are also heavily censored. I was once having a look at some messages in an Intel newsgroup when the topic of overclocking was raised. Intel eventually filtered out all messages with mentions of overclocking. I'm sure Microsoft would act in a similar way in similar circumstances. -- Jose [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:09, Patrick Hubers wrote: Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: ... or you haven't explained it well enough. You should feel lucky that you have this kind of free community-based support -- you'll never have it in the M$ world. There, you'll have to pay through the nose for tech support. You can pay for tech support in GNU/Linux as well. This would be recommended if, say, you had a company relying on GNU/Linux. There are helpful user communities in the M$ world also. The fact that Microsoft tries to take your every pennie in order to solve their own screw-ups doesn't mean that mailing lists like this one are a GNU/Linux-only thing :-) True, if you pay a lot of money, you'd expect some customer service from the manufacturer as well and that ain't gonna happen with M$, but that doesn't mean that *nobody* can help you. You're correct there. The point I was trying to make is that the beauty of GNU/Linux is its great wealth of online fora (whether it be via e-mail, newsgroups, message boards, etc.), in which people can discuss their problems and help each other, rather than paying a company for support. Sure, you can get this in Windows, but the community is nowhere near as vibrant. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
From: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? or you haven't explained it well enough. You should feel lucky that you have this kind of free community-based support -- you'll never have it in the M$ world. There, you'll have to pay through the nose for tech support. You can There are free MS support options. There are free newsgroups, hosted by a news server at microsoft.com, and readble via any newsreader. And there are many free email lists, as well. Both of these are community help, augmented (in the case of the newsgroups) by advice from MS employees, just the way Mandrake employees monitor this list. Not to mention web searching thru MS's Knowledgebase, or on their TechNet site. Just setting the record straight.
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
I have to agree with Sridhar on this. I didn't choose Linux because I expected Plug'n'Play. If I wanted a Mac (ewww!) I would have bought a Mac. I expected a learning experience; that's what I like in my hobbies. Since installing my first Linux distro some 7 or 8 months ago, I've acquired an entire shelf of books and several full distros - and a whole lotta' learning. To use a mixed metaphor, on the Linux highway, I have passed the driver's test but am not a master mechanic yet. I belong to at least a dozen mailing lists on several different subjects, from Linux to genealogy to circuit board design (the hobby that actually pays the bills). Do I get answers to all of my questions? No. Are all of the answers I do get helpful? Not always, but they are certainly appreciated. If I had judged my experience from a few posts, or even a couple dozen posts, I would have soured on the whole mailing list concept long ago, but it's kind of like a shotgun effect: send enough shot at your target and something's going to hit it. Don't get discouraged. Patience is a virtue. On Sunday 24 June 2001 06:35 am, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: You seem to be EXPECTING people to answer your questions. This is an e-mail list in which users help users. Nobody HAS to answer anything. This isn't because we don't like you, it more likely is because nobody knows the answer, or you haven't explained it well enough. You should feel lucky that you have this kind of free community-based support -- you'll never have it in the M$ world. There, you'll have to pay through the nose for tech support. You can pay for tech support in GNU/Linux as well. This would be recommended if, say, you had a company relying on GNU/Linux. Also, as Civileme wrote, you should check ALL avenues of support. You cannot expect to find all the answers on the Linux-Mandrake Newbie List. You should be also looking at places like Linux.com, LinuxNewbie.org, MandrakeUser.org, and MandrakeExpert for help. Newsgroups and IRC can be gold mines for support. You can even pay LinuxCare or a distro provider for guaranteed support. On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 03:36, Loke Kit Kai wrote: right... asking experienced people for help... it is this kind of mail that push me off linux... I did gave linux a try, post a few mails on this mailing list... how? got any help? NO!!! -- Support your local law enforcement agency - this week commit the crime of your choice!
[newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
Where are our big guns? Please read this story when you have time. However, it's not all doom and gloom. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2778923,00.html Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah,...Here we go again. I'd like to suggest that we send in Duke Nuke'm to slap these guys around. What they don't seem to realize (Or maybe they do???Hmmm.) is that they're not just reporting the news (?) but they're one of the biggest reasons that popularity of Linux is being affected. Have you noticed that they spend a lot of time balancing their scales when pumping out this crap? Nope, Nada! Not one story of Linux in the office and on the desktop! Nice job of reporting the news objectively ! Guess that might cut down on your readers, eh? I was just at LinuxExpo Montreal, and one guy (Glenn Jacobson, President of Unique Systems Ltd. - www.uniqsys.com ), did a presentation about the Linux desktop in action. A legal firm of 100 people all running Linux, and ONLY Linux. This was just one of his clients. And it all runs on a Linux Thin Client/Thin Server network, too ! You don't hear about the success stories, do ya ? Of course Linux is great on servers. That's a known fact. Of course Linux still needs refinement and more apps for the desktop. So did Windows when it first came out! But you never hear about the increased security on the Linux workstation compared to Windows NT, do ya? What about the U.S. federal governments' imperative to push city governments, libraries, schools, etc., into switching over to Linux? I think the article I read said something like a total of 320 different government institutions? What about India (Or was it Pakistan?) where 50% of all government networks are totally Linux? The City that I admin for in Quebec, Canada has been getting a major roll-out and a migration to Mandrake-Linux, with only a few exceptions (Graphics on PC's and Macs). The staff has been undergoing retraining, and they're loving it! No more B.S.O.D.'s, fewer lock-ups and crashes, better solitare (er, forget that one, the boss is watching!) Personally I'm getting fed up with ZDNet, and some of these Linux sites where the writers and editors are bashing Linux in the name of reporting the news. Hey guys, if you're not part of the solution, You're part of the problem. Grab a brain. After all, are you running a Pro-Linux web-site to support the Linux Community? Or did Bill Gates slip you $20.00 ? Big Guns indeed. Maybe something even bigger? Someone else just posted to this group about Linux being dead for the desktop. Nice of him to send it to the list. But look at the references that the writer used for his article ! Eazel (which due to the availability of the source code can continue to develop in the Linux community), and Corel Linux! Please, don't make me laugh! Ever since Mike Cowpland left Corel, they haven't done diddley with it. Think that might have something to do with the Microsoft buy-in? Nah! Couldn't be! Microsoft wouldn't throw pocket change into Corel to stop them from developing Linux, would they? After all, they've never done it before, have they? And all of a sudden, Cowpland books! Gee, what a coinkydink! Personally, I'm going to be giggling my butt off when the Linux Community shows these guys how wrong they are! Good luck to all Windows XP users! You're in for the dot NET ride of your life! Enjoy the lack of privacy, and having all your financial records moved from your office to Microsoft's ! Dan LaBine Registered Linux User#190712 On June 23, 2001 07:55 am, you wrote: Where are our big guns? Please read this story when you have time. However, it's not all doom and gloom. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2778923,00.html Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
This is proof that the Wintel Cartel lives on after the antitrust trial (where Intel testified against M$). After all these years, did you think that it would just roll-over and die? Of course not. Here, we have a symbiotic relationship. Both Intel chips and M$ apps have become ubiquitous standards on the desktop from helping each other. Now this arrangement is scaling both up into the server (Itanium and WinXP) and down into embedded devices (StrongARM and WinCE). GNU/Linux is a threat to Intel because of its portability. Anyone can compile GNU/Linux code to run on many other non-Intel hardware platforms, like those of IBM, Sun, HP and Compaq -- in other words, Intel's main competition. However, GNU/Linux is gaining ground on the server, and Intel realise that they'd be idiots to oppose it at the high-end. Corporates are more likely to switch to another OS than an ordinary home user (who is probably still trying to find the any key). On the desktop, Intel are faced with a rejuvenated Apple, employing Motorola's version of the PowerPC design. Remember the whole CISC vs RISC war of the early- to mid- 1990s? Apple chips were actually faster than Intel ones, but what saved Intel was their ability to turn MegaHertz into a commodity (i.e. Intel had more MHz per processor, fooling people into believing that their systems were quicker) and the fact that Windows ran on x86. Now Intel are also faced with competition on their own turf, in the guise of AMD and Transmeta (among others). AMD already have almost a quarter of the desktop CPU market, and they aim for 30% by year's end. Notice how more vigorously AMD are promoting GNU/Linux compared to Intel? AMD's x86-64 architecture will be incompatible with Itanium's, and there is no guarantee that M$ will make a Windos port for it. They need a good OS, and they've found one in GNU/Linux. Intel, of course, doesn't like that. Intel will surely support (i.e. run) GNU/Linux, but they won't actively promote it (much), since it just gives the competition a leg-up. So in conclusion, both Intel and Microsoft are mutually-beneficial monopolies (to use the economic, not the dictionary, definition). It doesn't make any business sense to promote another hardware architecture (MS) or OS (Intel). At the same time, however, other hardware and software platforms cannot be totally ignored. On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:55, Romanator wrote: Where are our big guns? Please read this story when you have time. However, it's not all doom and gloom. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2778923,00.html Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
Lanman wrote: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah,...Here we go again. I'd like to suggest that we send in Duke Nuke'm to slap these guys around. What they don't seem to realize (Or maybe they do???Hmmm.) is that they're not just reporting the news (?) but they're one of the biggest reasons that popularity of Linux is being affected. Have you noticed that they spend a lot of time balancing their scales when pumping out this crap? Nope, Nada! Not one story of Linux in the office and on the desktop! Nice job of reporting the news objectively ! Guess that might cut down on your readers, eh? I was just at LinuxExpo Montreal, and one guy (Glenn Jacobson, President of Unique Systems Ltd. - www.uniqsys.com ), did a presentation about the Linux desktop in action. A legal firm of 100 people all running Linux, and ONLY Linux. This was just one of his clients. And it all runs on a Linux Thin Client/Thin Server network, too ! You don't hear about the success stories, do ya ? Of course Linux is great on servers. That's a known fact. Of course Linux still needs refinement and more apps for the desktop. So did Windows when it first came out! But you never hear about the increased security on the Linux workstation compared to Windows NT, do ya? What about the U.S. federal governments' imperative to push city governments, libraries, schools, etc., into switching over to Linux? I think the article I read said something like a total of 320 different government institutions? What about India (Or was it Pakistan?) where 50% of all government networks are totally Linux? The City that I admin for in Quebec, Canada has been getting a major roll-out and a migration to Mandrake-Linux, with only a few exceptions (Graphics on PC's and Macs). The staff has been undergoing retraining, and they're loving it! No more B.S.O.D.'s, fewer lock-ups and crashes, better solitare (er, forget that one, the boss is watching!) Personally I'm getting fed up with ZDNet, and some of these Linux sites where the writers and editors are bashing Linux in the name of reporting the news. Hey guys, if you're not part of the solution, You're part of the problem. Grab a brain. After all, are you running a Pro-Linux web-site to support the Linux Community? Or did Bill Gates slip you $20.00 ? Big Guns indeed. Maybe something even bigger? Someone else just posted to this group about Linux being dead for the desktop. Nice of him to send it to the list. But look at the references that the writer used for his article ! Eazel (which due to the availability of the source code can continue to develop in the Linux community), and Corel Linux! Please, don't make me laugh! Ever since Mike Cowpland left Corel, they haven't done diddley with it. Think that might have something to do with the Microsoft buy-in? Nah! Couldn't be! Microsoft wouldn't throw pocket change into Corel to stop them from developing Linux, would they? After all, they've never done it before, have they? And all of a sudden, Cowpland books! Gee, what a coinkydink! Personally, I'm going to be giggling my butt off when the Linux Community shows these guys how wrong they are! Good luck to all Windows XP users! You're in for the dot NET ride of your life! Enjoy the lack of privacy, and having all your financial records moved from your office to Microsoft's ! Dan LaBine Registered Linux User#190712 On June 23, 2001 07:55 am, you wrote: Where are our big guns? Please read this story when you have time. However, it's not all doom and gloom. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2778923,00.html Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility Dan, Yeah, ZDNet are puppets of M$, and I'm extremely disappointed with some of these other sites. For desktop, I still think Eazel has a great future. It has a very nice look and easy to use for first time users. On another note, I missed LinuxExpo Montreal(had to work), and for me the news from Montreal was extremely positive. Do you know if a Linux convention will be slated to be in Toronto in the coming months? Is there a site where I can find out? Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
This brings up an interesting point. Many people and organisations don't switch to GNU/Linux because they don't know of any real-world case studies that demonstrate its success. My information systems subjects at uni are full of real-world case studies, and we (well, at least I) learn well by reading them (we've done a few great GNU/Linux studies too :-). In one assignment earlier this year, I had to compare two e-commerce sites on a technical (not just superficial) level. Although I wanted to profile companies that ran GNU/Linux, I couldn't find any good examples on the WWW to use. In the end, I was forced to stoop to the worst possible level -- I consulted Microsoft.com. There, I found a large section full of case studies describing the systems infrastructure of companies that have decided to implement MS software. I found excellent studies of Dell.com and Compaq.com, and I proceded to compare those. The assignment turned out well, and I gained full marks. Of course, I was a bit biased in emphasising Compaq.com's rock-solid Tru64 backend :-) My point here is that GNU/Linux, or at least individual distribution companies, need to have a central case database describing in detail the various implementations GNU/Linux is used for. This, I believe, is one the most effective forms of advertising that can be done, and it can go a long way in persuading businesses to adopt GNU/Linux. Perhaps MandrakeSoft should set up their own such system, or better yet sponsor one that represents GNU/Linux as a whole, irrespective of distribution? I think I'll post this at MandrakeForum as well. It looks like a good topic for discussion :-) On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:32, Lanman wrote: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah,...Here we go again. I'd like to suggest that we send in Duke Nuke'm to slap these guys around. What they don't seem to realize (Or maybe they do???Hmmm.) is that they're not just reporting the news (?) but they're one of the biggest reasons that popularity of Linux is being affected. Have you noticed that they spend a lot of time balancing their scales when pumping out this crap? Nope, Nada! Not one story of Linux in the office and on the desktop! Nice job of reporting the news objectively ! Guess that might cut down on your readers, eh? I was just at LinuxExpo Montreal, and one guy (Glenn Jacobson, President of Unique Systems Ltd. - www.uniqsys.com ), did a presentation about the Linux desktop in action. A legal firm of 100 people all running Linux, and ONLY Linux. This was just one of his clients. And it all runs on a Linux Thin Client/Thin Server network, too ! You don't hear about the success stories, do ya ? Of course Linux is great on servers. That's a known fact. Of course Linux still needs refinement and more apps for the desktop. So did Windows when it first came out! But you never hear about the increased security on the Linux workstation compared to Windows NT, do ya? What about the U.S. federal governments' imperative to push city governments, libraries, schools, etc., into switching over to Linux? I think the article I read said something like a total of 320 different government institutions? What about India (Or was it Pakistan?) where 50% of all government networks are totally Linux? The City that I admin for in Quebec, Canada has been getting a major roll-out and a migration to Mandrake-Linux, with only a few exceptions (Graphics on PC's and Macs). The staff has been undergoing retraining, and they're loving it! No more B.S.O.D.'s, fewer lock-ups and crashes, better solitare (er, forget that one, the boss is watching!) Personally I'm getting fed up with ZDNet, and some of these Linux sites where the writers and editors are bashing Linux in the name of reporting the news. Hey guys, if you're not part of the solution, You're part of the problem. Grab a brain. After all, are you running a Pro-Linux web-site to support the Linux Community? Or did Bill Gates slip you $20.00 ? Big Guns indeed. Maybe something even bigger? Someone else just posted to this group about Linux being dead for the desktop. Nice of him to send it to the list. But look at the references that the writer used for his article ! Eazel (which due to the availability of the source code can continue to develop in the Linux community), and Corel Linux! Please, don't make me laugh! Ever since Mike Cowpland left Corel, they haven't done diddley with it. Think that might have something to do with the Microsoft buy-in? Nah! Couldn't be! Microsoft wouldn't throw pocket change into Corel to stop them from developing Linux, would they? After all, they've never done it before, have they? And all of a sudden, Cowpland books! Gee, what a coinkydink! Personally, I'm going to be giggling my butt off when the Linux Community shows these guys how wrong they are! Good luck to all Windows XP users! You're in for the dot NET ride of your life! Enjoy the lack of privacy, and having all your
RE: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
right... asking experienced people for help... it is this kind of mail that push me off linux... I did gave linux a try, post a few mails on this mailing list... how? got any help? NO!!! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeffrey M. Reed Sent: 24 June 2001 01:01 To: Romanator; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? On Saturday 23 June 2001 07:55, Romanator wrote: Where are our big guns? Please read this story when you have time. However, it's not all doom and gloom. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,277 8923,00.html Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility ok, here we go again. i'm so happy when you guys post stuff like this because in all seriousness, all it does is piss me off. so forgive me because i'm about to spout. ok, not suited for the desktop? then why, oh why, do i use linux for EVERYTHING EXCEPT GAMES...ok? ACTUALLY, i take that back! now i have Quake 3, Alpha Centauri, and a boat load of FREE ones that i play on my linux box when i feel the need. you see, the miracle of this FREE OS is that it's conquered the HEARTS of people who TRULY APPRECIATE COMPUTING. the CORPORATE CULTURE lends itself to the world of MONEY and ADVOCACY. along with that, add freaky phrases like LICENSING, and PIRACY, and .net. how could they (meaning those WINTEL bastards) capitalize or function with a FREE system? they simply can't SELL IT. a lot of them don't even understand that it's for real. trust me...i work with these guys every day. again, a lot of these guys ASSUME that because it's free, then it must be, in linus's own words, 'a piece of crap'. linux is based on an IDEA...a principle if you willFREE. intel, and all these other idiots can shut the hell up. they're whining and complaining like every other typical american consumer when they get something for free. WHAT? I HAVE TO PUT IT TOGETHER? i try to make an analogy for people...something like: what if instead of just buying a car, you were sent the partsall of themfor free or at least for a very low price (which, by the way, can be done of course). the problem is, the car is completely disassembled. you don't even know where to start. so, you would probably spend a lot of TIME trying to figure it out. but, if you're curiosity factor was strong enough, you'd go out and spend a souple o' bucks on a CHILTON and start learning how to put the sucker together. eventuallly, through a little trial and error, you WOULD learn how to build a car...by reading the manuals and ASKING OTHER EXPERIENCED PEOPLE (aka mailing list!!!) how to put certain things together. maybe you would NEED to spend some extra cash for a mechanic to help you...maybe you would NEED to spend the extra cash to beef up your engine a little. but, after SUCCESSFULLY building your car, you would have yourself one nice ride. AND, then you could SHARE (aka bragging LOL) your experience with others who want to know how to do it. difficult process? yes. time consuming? yes. but in the end, you should feel pretty damn good because you just built your own car. AKA LINUX. this OS was never intentionally made for the market...it was a college kid's science project and of course, we've found a way to 'bastardize' it and throw it into out corporate marketplace. THAT IS NOT WHAT IT WAS MADE FOR. you all need to get that clear in your head...NOW. it's an experiment...it's a hobby...it is POWERFUL but it's power does NOT BELONG TO ANY ONE PERSON OR COMPANY. the beauty of this silly little science project is that NEVER has any one stupid little computer gadget sparked such a community effort worldwide! never has something so 'marketable' (aka FREE) become so available! think about it. i read these lists every day and more and more and more people are beginning to realize that the way we are 'used' to doing things does not have to be goverened by one company who's selling the 'standard' set of software with the 'standard' OS for a seemingly reasonable price...as long as you don't make illegal copies, you won't go to jail. isn't that a nice feeling? me thinks not. you now have a CHOICE. INTEL, has a CHOICE. M$, INTEL, Apple, AMD, ALL those guys...they can write all the shallow arguments they want. if linux is so 'non-standard', then why are there literally HUNDREDS of desktop environments available...and program packages? HELLOOO! what the hell is KDE? i've only been using linux for about a year now and in just a YEAR, i've seen KDE grow into something M$ WISHES they had. i just don't get where the hell they're going with THEIR argument. linux is the coolest damn thing since the friggin' ball point pen! all these companies...they're just PISSED because THEY DIDN'T THINK OF IT FIRST! if you like AOL, email, 'OFFICE' and all that shit, go ahead and stick with M$ because honeslty, i really have no problem with M$. hell, i studied their stuff and took
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
On Saturday 23 June 2001 11:17 am, Romanator wrote: You also hit the nail. Our market is flooded with so much substandard ICs and boards. I have caught many errors or crashes caused by hardware of which I thought was caused by software. I ended up replacing a board or chip and the crash disapeared. Is there a Wall Of Shame web page to post vendors/retailers and hardware that should be avoided for users? Roman Well, sort'a kind'a, but in reverse. Go to any of the 'magazine' review sites that push/recommend/advertise Windoze hardware ... like Cnet, ZDnet, etc. That's usually a strong indication of what NOT to buy and avoid ; Good 'Wall of Shame' pages. Also, if you need to d/l closed source, binary only drivers to make somethin fully functional, or work at all on Linux, that's a fair indicator it's use at your own risk, avoid if you possibly can hardware. So those manufacturers webpages and ftp sites make good 'Wall of Shame' pages. Jee, I bet I'm p!$$in off a bunch of GeForce owners ;~ AND then there's also many ready made manufacturers that have websites, like Dell, Gateway, Compaq, etc. . that make it easy to figure out what complete systems to shun and avoid. These are the best 'Wall of Shame' pages. Now I know I've p!$$ed off a bunch of y'all ; 'Course in all my pontificating, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that the responsibility for suitable hardware to run Linux on is solely the Linux users. Hopefully they make themselves aware of win-hardare and closed source driver issues before they even think about installing Linux for the first time. So there could be a 'Wall of Shame' page for some Linux users too. 'Course many of them wouldn't know, or accept if they did, that they're part of the win-hardware, Wintel problem. I'd nominate anyone who posts to this list but it works in Windows as always, Y'alls MMV ;Wall of Shame © Romanator ;) -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay Tom Brinkman wrote: I agree with all you say Sridhar, but I believe you didn't go nearly far enough. Intel, Windoze, and the big readymade vendors like Dell, love to push Wintel (eg, win motherboards, winmodems, winprinters, win video, win sound, win monitors, etc) on computer illiterate users. Neither Linux nor most of it's more savvy users will or can tolerate this substandard corner-cutting junk and the closed source/binary only drivers it requires to function. snip
RE: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
people can only help if they know of your problem,,, I have had many problems that I've had to solve myself,, because others have no knowledge of it... the fact is, that for many of the problems I have had, this list has been invaluable... The best way of fixing probs i have had, is to go to the linux goggle site, and enter in the error message.,.. I ususally find dozens of email archives about it and many include possible fixes... linux is a huge collection of apps... far more then MS, thats its power and its detrement... power because it can do almost anything, and detriment because it makes support that much harder... but over all, the extra apps and capabilities are worth the extra hassle... rgds Frank... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Loke Kit Kai Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2001 1:36 AM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? right... asking experienced people for help... it is this kind of mail that push me off linux... I did gave linux a try, post a few mails on this mailing list... how? got any help? NO!!! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeffrey M. Reed Sent: 24 June 2001 01:01 To: Romanator; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? On Saturday 23 June 2001 07:55, Romanator wrote: Where are our big guns? Please read this story when you have time. However, it's not all doom and gloom. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,277 8923,00.html Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility ok, here we go again. i'm so happy when you guys post stuff like this because in all seriousness, all it does is piss me off. so forgive me because i'm about to spout. ok, not suited for the desktop? then why, oh why, do i use linux for EVERYTHING EXCEPT GAMES...ok? ACTUALLY, i take that back! now i have Quake 3, Alpha Centauri, and a boat load of FREE ones that i play on my linux box when i feel the need. you see, the miracle of this FREE OS is that it's conquered the HEARTS of people who TRULY APPRECIATE COMPUTING. the CORPORATE CULTURE lends itself to the world of MONEY and ADVOCACY. along with that, add freaky phrases like LICENSING, and PIRACY, and .net. how could they (meaning those WINTEL bastards) capitalize or function with a FREE system? they simply can't SELL IT. a lot of them don't even understand that it's for real. trust me...i work with these guys every day. again, a lot of these guys ASSUME that because it's free, then it must be, in linus's own words, 'a piece of crap'. linux is based on an IDEA...a principle if you willFREE. intel, and all these other idiots can shut the hell up. they're whining and complaining like every other typical american consumer when they get something for free. WHAT? I HAVE TO PUT IT TOGETHER? i try to make an analogy for people...something like: what if instead of just buying a car, you were sent the partsall of themfor free or at least for a very low price (which, by the way, can be done of course). the problem is, the car is completely disassembled. you don't even know where to start. so, you would probably spend a lot of TIME trying to figure it out. but, if you're curiosity factor was strong enough, you'd go out and spend a souple o' bucks on a CHILTON and start learning how to put the sucker together. eventuallly, through a little trial and error, you WOULD learn how to build a car...by reading the manuals and ASKING OTHER EXPERIENCED PEOPLE (aka mailing list!!!) how to put certain things together. maybe you would NEED to spend some extra cash for a mechanic to help you...maybe you would NEED to spend the extra cash to beef up your engine a little. but, after SUCCESSFULLY building your car, you would have yourself one nice ride. AND, then you could SHARE (aka bragging LOL) your experience with others who want to know how to do it. difficult process? yes. time consuming? yes. but in the end, you should feel pretty damn good because you just built your own car. AKA LINUX. this OS was never intentionally made for the market...it was a college kid's science project and of course, we've found a way to 'bastardize' it and throw it into out corporate marketplace. THAT IS NOT WHAT IT WAS MADE FOR. you all need to get that clear in your head...NOW. it's an experiment...it's a hobby...it is POWERFUL but it's power does NOT BELONG TO ANY ONE PERSON OR COMPANY. the beauty of this silly little science project is that NEVER has any one stupid little computer gadget sparked such a community effort worldwide! never has something so 'marketable' (aka FREE) become so available! think about it. i read these lists every day and more and more and more people are beginning to realize that the way we are 'used' to doing things does not have to be goverened by one company who's selling the 'standard' set of software with the 'standard
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
Did you know that we are agreeing with you?? We were quoting news articles on various web-sites and bashing them, O.K.?? Dan
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
I have to agree with Franki; The PC revolution in the last 10 to 20 years have created a demand for a ton of hardware and apps, but has not created the willingness to RTFM !! If people want to become mnore efficient with their PC's They're just going to have to open a book and (GASP!!) read ! Learning is not a bad thing. Seeing how we're going to be depending on computers more and more, it would make sense to learn what's under the hood, don't you think?? Dan On June 23, 2001 01:57 pm, you wrote: people can only help if they know of your problem,,, I have had many problems that I've had to solve myself,, because others have no knowledge of it... the fact is, that for many of the problems I have had, this list has been invaluable... The best way of fixing probs i have had, is to go to the linux goggle site, and enter in the error message.,.. I ususally find dozens of email archives about it and many include possible fixes... linux is a huge collection of apps... far more then MS, thats its power and its detrement... power because it can do almost anything, and detriment because it makes support that much harder... but over all, the extra apps and capabilities are worth the extra hassle... rgds Frank... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Loke Kit Kai Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2001 1:36 AM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? right... asking experienced people for help... it is this kind of mail that push me off linux... I did gave linux a try, post a few mails on this mailing list... how? got any help? NO!!! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeffrey M. Reed Sent: 24 June 2001 01:01 To: Romanator; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? On Saturday 23 June 2001 07:55, Romanator wrote: Where are our big guns? Please read this story when you have time. However, it's not all doom and gloom. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,277 8923,00.html Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility ok, here we go again. i'm so happy when you guys post stuff like this because in all seriousness, all it does is piss me off. so forgive me because i'm about to spout. ok, not suited for the desktop? then why, oh why, do i use linux for EVERYTHING EXCEPT GAMES...ok? ACTUALLY, i take that back! now i have Quake 3, Alpha Centauri, and a boat load of FREE ones that i play on my linux box when i feel the need. you see, the miracle of this FREE OS is that it's conquered the HEARTS of people who TRULY APPRECIATE COMPUTING. the CORPORATE CULTURE lends itself to the world of MONEY and ADVOCACY. along with that, add freaky phrases like LICENSING, and PIRACY, and .net. how could they (meaning those WINTEL bastards) capitalize or function with a FREE system? they simply can't SELL IT. a lot of them don't even understand that it's for real. trust me...i work with these guys every day. again, a lot of these guys ASSUME that because it's free, then it must be, in linus's own words, 'a piece of crap'. linux is based on an IDEA...a principle if you willFREE. intel, and all these other idiots can shut the hell up. they're whining and complaining like every other typical american consumer when they get something for free. WHAT? I HAVE TO PUT IT TOGETHER? i try to make an analogy for people...something like: what if instead of just buying a car, you were sent the partsall of themfor free or at least for a very low price (which, by the way, can be done of course). the problem is, the car is completely disassembled. you don't even know where to start. so, you would probably spend a lot of TIME trying to figure it out. but, if you're curiosity factor was strong enough, you'd go out and spend a souple o' bucks on a CHILTON and start learning how to put the sucker together. eventuallly, through a little trial and error, you WOULD learn how to build a car...by reading the manuals and ASKING OTHER EXPERIENCED PEOPLE (aka mailing list!!!) how to put certain things together. maybe you would NEED to spend some extra cash for a mechanic to help you...maybe you would NEED to spend the extra cash to beef up your engine a little. but, after SUCCESSFULLY building your car, you would have yourself one nice ride. AND, then you could SHARE (aka bragging LOL) your experience with others who want to know how to do it. difficult process? yes. time consuming? yes. but in the end, you should feel pretty damn good because you just built your own car. AKA LINUX. this OS was never intentionally made for the market...it was a college kid's science project and of course, we've found a way to 'bastardize' it and throw it into out corporate marketplace. THAT IS NOT WHAT IT WAS MADE FOR. you all need to get that clear
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
Tom Brinkman wrote: On Saturday 23 June 2001 11:17 am, Romanator wrote: You also hit the nail. Our market is flooded with so much substandard ICs and boards. I have caught many errors or crashes caused by hardware of which I thought was caused by software. I ended up replacing a board or chip and the crash disapeared. Is there a Wall Of Shame web page to post vendors/retailers and hardware that should be avoided for users? Roman Well, sort'a kind'a, but in reverse. Go to any of the 'magazine' review sites that push/recommend/advertise Windoze hardware ... like Cnet, ZDnet, etc. That's usually a strong indication of what NOT to buy and avoid ; Good 'Wall of Shame' pages. Also, if you need to d/l closed source, binary only drivers to make somethin fully functional, or work at all on Linux, that's a fair indicator it's use at your own risk, avoid if you possibly can hardware. So those manufacturers webpages and ftp sites make good 'Wall of Shame' pages. Jee, I bet I'm p!$$in off a bunch of GeForce owners ;~ AND then there's also many ready made manufacturers that have websites, like Dell, Gateway, Compaq, etc. . that make it easy to figure out what complete systems to shun and avoid. These are the best 'Wall of Shame' pages. Now I know I've p!$$ed off a bunch of y'all ; 'Course in all my pontificating, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that the responsibility for suitable hardware to run Linux on is solely the Linux users. Hopefully they make themselves aware of win-hardare and closed source driver issues before they even think about installing Linux for the first time. So there could be a 'Wall of Shame' page for some Linux users too. 'Course many of them wouldn't know, or accept if they did, that they're part of the win-hardware, Wintel problem. I'd nominate anyone who posts to this list but it works in Windows as always, Y'alls MMV ;Wall of Shame © Romanator ;) -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay Tom Brinkman wrote: I agree with all you say Sridhar, but I believe you didn't go nearly far enough. Intel, Windoze, and the big readymade vendors like Dell, love to push Wintel (eg, win motherboards, winmodems, winprinters, win video, win sound, win monitors, etc) on computer illiterate users. Neither Linux nor most of it's more savvy users will or can tolerate this substandard corner-cutting junk and the closed source/binary only drivers it requires to function. snip I'm sure there are going to be a number of angry posts as a follow up. Roman Registered Linux User #179293
RE: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
I don't understand what are you trying to put through to me... basically, my language is on the weaker side... I do hate what Microsoft is doing, and I am impressed with Mandrake, trying to provide a user friendly os, but it will stop there if other applications do not provide the same user friendness Mandrake has provided... Remember, the whole world is full of non techies, and people who do not want to spend lots of time configuring their system... I just started a company with my classmate... do you think I can afford to spend time trying to get the drivers for my efficient adsl modem when mandrake itself don't want to support me? I followed the instructions, and what did I get, blank response. I posted to this mailing list, and what did I get, blank response. If you were in my shoes, do you think you will still faithfully stick to linux to solve the problem? I am already thinking of getting new hardware to solve that problem, because I can't wait any longer... But any useful assistant for configuring Samba would be appreciated. Don't tell me to refer to the documentation, because I don't understand it... Now, I would love to see linux succeed, but from the looks of it, it still have a long way to go... How about you guys stop arguing about the articles, and do something about the interface to cater for people who are not techies!!! You can open up the computer to learn the parts doesn't mean that the rest of the world needs to... Every person in the world plays a different role, and that role doesn't need in depth understanding about the internal workings about the computer... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Lanman Sent: 23 June 2001 14:34 To: Loke Kit Kai; Mandrake Newbie Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? Did you know that we are agreeing with you?? We were quoting news articles on various web-sites and bashing them, O.K.?? Dan
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
John wrote: On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 02:44:34 -0400, Lanman wrote: I have to agree with Franki; The PC revolution in the last 10 to 20 years have created a demand for a ton of hardware and apps, but has not created the willingness to RTFM !! If people want to become mnore efficient with their PC's They're just going to have to open a book and (GASP!!) read ! Learning is not a bad thing. Seeing how we're going to be depending on computers more and more, it would make sense to learn what's under the hood, don't you think?? I couldn't agree more here too. As a shade tree PC Tech (working to get certified soon), I get so many calls from people who have just bought some kind of new software, a game, office stuff, whatever, and asking me what went wrong here, or why isn't it doing this, or how do I work this and that part of it, etc, etc... And every time I just shake my head in disgust and nicely tell them that I can't possibly know how every application works, that 'they' have to read the manual and see what they need to do. It's just simply mind boggling the lack of common sense in our world. I have been trying though to get people who just buy a system to try Linux. I have them download Peanut Linux and let them play around with it alongside M$, that way they aren't completely inundated with 'Stupid on the brain' M$ alone and have to actually try to use their thinking abilities to some extent. -- John, [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 23/06/2001 **Please report spammers to SpamCop! Use PocoMail for virus-free email and PGP to keep it all safe from prying eyes.** Marketing can be a very good or bad tool. This is a good time for retailers to assign some space for Linux so that people can experience it. However, people must spend the time to read rather than have things handed to them. If I am going to start my own business, I better know how things work and what I'm getting in to. The books and sites are out there. And yes, at times we can go off a bit but we also help a lot of people on this news group. Some times, people do not get an immediate answer. That's because nobody has an answer for you. If you don't get an answer than please repost or rephrase the problem. Roman
Fwd: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
I did it again, ment to send this to the list not just the individual.. -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:54:50 -0400 From: Dennis M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jeffrey M. Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Saturday 23 June 2001 13:00, you wrote: On Saturday 23 June 2001 07:55, Romanator wrote: Where are our big guns? Please read this story when you have time. However, it's not all doom and gloom. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,277 8923,00.html Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility big snip it's nice to have a CHOICE instead of my choices all being made for me. THAT, is truly american...independence and individual thinking. freedom. thanks for letting me vent...i'll shut up now. Ok, I was going to be quiet,but now I have to throw my two cents in. I have given my cheapbytes copy of Mandrake to two other people cause they said It's time I tried linux, what do you suggest? They are trying it because they see the writing on the wall with XP and they hear me talking about the only time my system goes down is if I am messing with it to see what happens if I do this? and I proceed to do something ignorant., but in 5 to 10 minutes I am back up and running. Now my wife after having been nocked off of AOL for the umpteenth time and fighting with Office 97, says to me, your going to have to teach me how to use linux. That's three people in the last 2 weeks and just me. How many of you out there are experiencing the same? I see the snowball rolling down hill and that sucker is getting bigger every day. Now RedHat has a net server OS called TUX 2.0 that runs packets through at 3 times the speed of NT. And that measure for peak could only be made after they took two of the cpus out of the server running the benchmark! Linux is on the verge. I personnally don't care if it replaces MS or not, just so It continues to develope and provide me with the choice of spending a bunch of money on something I have no control over or paying fair market value for something I can taylor to my needs. THE PENGUIN IS MY HERO! Now I will shut up. Thanks for tuning in. -- Dennis M. registered Linux user #180842 --- -- Dennis M. registered Linux user #180842
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
Hey Franki; Thanks for handling this guy. He was replying to me, and I explained a few things to him as well. I hadn't seen his original posts about his problems, but of course, given enough information, and the time required, I'm sure someone would be able to help him. but he doesn't seem interested in learning how to do these things himself. Just wants it working. Too bad. We may not be here the next time he needs help. Sure would help him a lot if he could get a handle on this for the next time. Dan
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
Linux is gaining ground. And, I don't think Intel is totally ignoring Linux. So, some blame is being placed on the writers presenting their articles! I thought they were supposed to be pro Linux. You know - hang in there and all that... What'ya mean Linux desktop is dead? If we took that attitude with everything, we wouldn't have any technology. If I had these guys on a football team they would be on the bench. Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: This is proof that the Wintel Cartel lives on after the antitrust trial (where Intel testified against M$). After all these years, did you think that it would just roll-over and die? Of course not. Here, we have a symbiotic relationship. Both Intel chips and M$ apps have become ubiquitous standards on the desktop from helping each other. Now this arrangement is scaling both up into the server (Itanium and WinXP) and down into embedded devices (StrongARM and WinCE). GNU/Linux is a threat to Intel because of its portability. Anyone can compile GNU/Linux code to run on many other non-Intel hardware platforms, like those of IBM, Sun, HP and Compaq -- in other words, Intel's main competition. However, GNU/Linux is gaining ground on the server, and Intel realise that they'd be idiots to oppose it at the high-end. Corporates are more likely to switch to another OS than an ordinary home user (who is probably still trying to find the any key). On the desktop, Intel are faced with a rejuvenated Apple, employing Motorola's version of the PowerPC design. Remember the whole CISC vs RISC war of the early- to mid- 1990s? Apple chips were actually faster than Intel ones, but what saved Intel was their ability to turn MegaHertz into a commodity (i.e. Intel had more MHz per processor, fooling people into believing that their systems were quicker) and the fact that Windows ran on x86. Now Intel are also faced with competition on their own turf, in the guise of AMD and Transmeta (among others). AMD already have almost a quarter of the desktop CPU market, and they aim for 30% by year's end. Notice how more vigorously AMD are promoting GNU/Linux compared to Intel? AMD's x86-64 architecture will be incompatible with Itanium's, and there is no guarantee that M$ will make a Windos port for it. They need a good OS, and they've found one in GNU/Linux. Intel, of course, doesn't like that. Intel will surely support (i.e. run) GNU/Linux, but they won't actively promote it (much), since it just gives the competition a leg-up. So in conclusion, both Intel and Microsoft are mutually-beneficial monopolies (to use the economic, not the dictionary, definition). It doesn't make any business sense to promote another hardware architecture (MS) or OS (Intel). At the same time, however, other hardware and software platforms cannot be totally ignored. On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:55, Romanator wrote: Where are our big guns? Please read this story when you have time. However, it's not all doom and gloom. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2778923,00.html Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
RE: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
As for your problem with ADSL, I remember emailing you (think it was you.) to let you know that because there are so many variations on how ADSL is setup, that its neearly impossible to point you to any one howto on the subject.. I have an ADSL modem that connects to my hub or directly to a second net card on my router box, and it does everything,, all I have to do is setup the static IP and gateway and dns stuff, and it works great on MDK 7.2... maybe you should look at that as a possible solution,, the ADSL modem is an Alcatel (and its one of only a few on their site..) it also depends on if you ISP supports the option,, but the modem also supports ppp over adsl, or pppoe,,, without knowing specifically what methods your ISP supports, or the modem they gave you, or the adsl equipment at the phone exchange,, how do you expect us to instruct you to do it?? ADSL is fairly new, its not standardised that much yet,, so everyone seems to be implimenting it differently. you need to find others that use your ISP, and possibly linux, and ask them what their setup entailed. since your isp won't really help you with linux, perhaps you should ask them for a description of how they have implimented adsl and then you have some info to go looking for on the web.. you don't need to really understand linux, you just have to understand how to find info and tips/fixes to do stuff (I do it all the time and it hasn't failed me yet..) The biggest reason you got little assistance on this list is simple, to show you what I mean here is an example, you have told us you have a problem with your car, it won't go, how do I fix it? we can't tell you, because we don't know what type, model and usage is, and we only know from you that it didn't go,, could you diagnose something like this? I have dealt with ISP's on a professional basis for years now, and they do something every similar with windows,,, most common tech responces 1. somthing wrong with your modem, or its a win modem, replace it.. 2. add this modem string to reduce line speed, see if that improves something. 3. remove all network stuff from control panel/network and add them all again. 4. your windows install is buggared, reload it and try again 5. your problem is client ineptness, pay us money and we will come and fix it for you. The problem you discribe isn't a linux issue, its just that because windows is more common on the desktop, everyone pays more attention to making sure it works.. rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of civileme Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2001 6:04 AM To: Loke Kit Kai; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel?? On Saturday 23 June 2001 18:49, Loke Kit Kai wrote: I don't understand what are you trying to put through to me... basically, my language is on the weaker side... I do hate what Microsoft is doing, and I am impressed with Mandrake, trying to provide a user friendly os, but it will stop there if other applications do not provide the same user friendness Mandrake has provided... Remember, the whole world is full of non techies, and people who do not want to spend lots of time configuring their system... I just started a company with my classmate... do you think I can afford to spend time trying to get the drivers for my efficient adsl modem when mandrake itself don't want to support me? I followed the instructions, and what did I get, blank response. I posted to this mailing list, and what did I get, blank response. If you were in my shoes, do you think you will still faithfully stick to linux to solve the problem? I am already thinking of getting new hardware to solve that problem, because I can't wait any longer... But any useful assistant for configuring Samba would be appreciated. Don't tell me to refer to the documentation, because I don't understand it... Now, I would love to see linux succeed, but from the looks of it, it still have a long way to go... How about you guys stop arguing about the articles, and do something about the interface to cater for people who are not techies!!! You can open up the computer to learn the parts doesn't mean that the rest of the world needs to... Every person in the world plays a different role, and that role doesn't need in depth understanding about the internal workings about the computer... Check MandrakeFreq. Damien has been working really hard on ADSL support. Still, a lot of hardware is unsupported because manufacturers just make it and write windows drivers for it and market it, leaving the linux community with a job of reverse engineering that is iffy and expensive, all in the name of Intellectual Property. Now this list isn't the only place to get support. Did you try MandrakeExpert? www.mandrakeexpert.com The link is on your desktop. There is also an expert mailing list, where people get help, and there is a huge step-by-step
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
On Saturday 23 June 2001 18:04, civileme wrote: Check MandrakeFreq. Damien has been working really hard on ADSL support. Still, a lot of hardware is unsupported because manufacturers just make it and write windows drivers for it and market it, leaving the linux community with a job of reverse engineering that is iffy and expensive, all in the name of Intellectual Property. I feel that manufactors couldn't care less for the Linux community since they view it as a bunch of pirates and hackers. Of course, if the Linux community would stop projecting this image, things might change. Now this list isn't the only place to get support. Did you try MandrakeExpert? www.mandrakeexpert.com The link is on your desktop. I have tried that route and never got a response. But I get all the help I need right here and from the Mandrakeuser.org There is also an expert mailing list, where people get help, and there is a huge step-by-step on setting up samba at www.mandrakeuser.org Mandrakeuser.org is an excellent resource for help. There are docs there covering just about everything that could go wrong. But if you need things in a real hurry, get out the wallet and buy the Gates solutions and be prepared to pay a small army of people who have passed the certification exams (often the product of boot camps where they take the tests several times a day, and are coached by their instructors on what they did wrong)... Oh and also, get the best data backup you can find, because you will be using it a lot. And make sure before you buy that your idea of how to do business matches theirs because you will be fighting wizards uphill all the way if you want to do something a little different. I have noticed boot camps for Linux as well. In fact boot camps seem to be on the rise for a lot of stuff nowadays. As for backing up your data, well, I certainly hope that Linux users are doing so. At work, the AIX, Solaris, Windows, Novell servers are backed up nightly. Nothing like a good backup for insurance. Windows gives you a ton of choices to use. Your business ideas doesn't have to follow anyones. There is a wealth of Windows applications out there. Even free ones on places like nonags.com and freeware32.com, etc You certainly aren't limited. You could choose to purchase software that is very well supported and rock solid (ever notice how much of the software is better than the Windows OS?) Or just make do with the free stuff. So you have a choice, a quick and mediocre soultion, with few choices, or a longer one with understanding (not to the level of programming, but some) and the ability to make your own choices, and the ability to trust the software. Either comment above fits Linux and Windows. Linux can be a real shitty deal at times. A lot of the software out there is crummy and not supported. The Red Hat 7.0 fiasco also comes to mind when thinking of a mediocre solution. Hell if you look at Linux' choices for the Office desktop, it is Linux that has very little to offer. The complexity, lack of corporate support, limited choices of production software (Office suites, mainframe emulators, etc), lack of multimedia support, etc, make Linux a poor choice. Mind you, I use Linux at work and at home, but then I don't like the idea of a shake and bake OS. Besides, I like learning new things and with Linux you can not only learn about the OS, but programming, hardware, and general troubleshooting. Windows is a pain since you have to ask for the source code (good luck!), pay for SDK's, etc. And that choice is yours. If you put a little more effort into looking and a little less into criticism, I think you would find what you want, but you have to make that choice. We are not here to make choices for you. If you have reached the conclusion that because a newbie list cannot help you with an expert problem, you have to jump to windows, so be it. I agree with the above. While Linux has its problems, it also has its strengths. With a good Linux distro (Mandrake), a good book and the willingness to try, you could get around most of the limitations. True the lack of Office Suites or even a full feature wordprocessor is not something you could get around at the point. But most of the other stuff is there, though somewhat cruder. But what I like the most is that you can actually communicate with the programmer and get your input take into future revisions. That is very exciting! Overall I feel that Windows has its place. Most folks don't want to learn mechanics, they just want to drive. For those folks Windows is just fine. Others like to open the hood and get dirty, Linux is custom made for those. Finally, after dealing with the brain dead Windows users at the office (I work as a desktop support tech) who can't even create a simple shortcut on their desktops, I get a thrill when sitting down on my PC and read emails about folks who can't get something
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 02:44:34 -0400, Lanman wrote: I have to agree with Franki; The PC revolution in the last 10 to 20 years have created a demand for a ton of hardware and apps, but has not created the willingness to RTFM !! If people want to become mnore efficient with their PC's They're just going to have to open a book and (GASP!!) read ! Learning is not a bad thing. Seeing how we're going to be depending on computers more and more, it would make sense to learn what's under the hood, don't you think?? I couldn't agree more here too. As a shade tree PC Tech (working to get certified soon), I get so many calls from people who have just bought some kind of new software, a game, office stuff, whatever, and asking me what went wrong here, or why isn't it doing this, or how do I work this and that part of it, etc, etc... And every time I just shake my head in disgust and nicely tell them that I can't possibly know how every application works, that 'they' have to read the manual and see what they need to do. It's just simply mind boggling the lack of common sense in our world. I have been trying though to get people who just buy a system to try Linux. I have them download Peanut Linux and let them play around with it alongside M$, that way they aren't completely inundated with 'Stupid on the brain' M$ alone and have to actually try to use their thinking abilities to some extent. -- John, [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 23/06/2001 **Please report spammers to SpamCop! Use PocoMail for virus-free email and PGP to keep it all safe from prying eyes.**
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
On Saturday 23 June 2001 18:49, Loke Kit Kai wrote: I don't understand what are you trying to put through to me... basically, my language is on the weaker side... I do hate what Microsoft is doing, and I am impressed with Mandrake, trying to provide a user friendly os, but it will stop there if other applications do not provide the same user friendness Mandrake has provided... Remember, the whole world is full of non techies, and people who do not want to spend lots of time configuring their system... I just started a company with my classmate... do you think I can afford to spend time trying to get the drivers for my efficient adsl modem when mandrake itself don't want to support me? I followed the instructions, and what did I get, blank response. I posted to this mailing list, and what did I get, blank response. If you were in my shoes, do you think you will still faithfully stick to linux to solve the problem? I am already thinking of getting new hardware to solve that problem, because I can't wait any longer... But any useful assistant for configuring Samba would be appreciated. Don't tell me to refer to the documentation, because I don't understand it... Now, I would love to see linux succeed, but from the looks of it, it still have a long way to go... How about you guys stop arguing about the articles, and do something about the interface to cater for people who are not techies!!! You can open up the computer to learn the parts doesn't mean that the rest of the world needs to... Every person in the world plays a different role, and that role doesn't need in depth understanding about the internal workings about the computer... Check MandrakeFreq. Damien has been working really hard on ADSL support. Still, a lot of hardware is unsupported because manufacturers just make it and write windows drivers for it and market it, leaving the linux community with a job of reverse engineering that is iffy and expensive, all in the name of Intellectual Property. Now this list isn't the only place to get support. Did you try MandrakeExpert? www.mandrakeexpert.com The link is on your desktop. There is also an expert mailing list, where people get help, and there is a huge step-by-step on setting up samba at www.mandrakeuser.org But if you need things in a real hurry, get out the wallet and buy the Gates solutions and be prepared to pay a small army of people who have passed the certification exams (often the product of boot camps where they take the tests several times a day, and are coached by their instructors on what they did wrong)... Oh and also, get the best data backup you can find, because you will be using it a lot. And make sure before you buy that your idea of how to do business matches theirs because you will be fighting wizards uphill all the way if you want to do something a little different. So you have a choice, a quick and mediocre soultion, with few choices, or a longer one with understanding (not to the level of programming, but some) and the ability to make your own choices, and the ability to trust the software. And that choice is yours. If you put a little more effort into looking and a little less into criticism, I think you would find what you want, but you have to make that choice. We are not here to make choices for you. If you have reached the conclusion that because a newbie list cannot help you with an expert problem, you have to jump to windows, so be it. Civileme
Re: [newbie] Linux bashing again by Intel??
It would be great topic. Go for it!. I think GNU/Linux as a whole can be provided for all schools. I can't see a school turning down a free OS. Educating the public is of paramount importance. However, we need wome one to teach the teachers. The public is ready for alternatative. I am sure that the number of users getting interested in and contributing to Linux are much higher than shown in any case study. Roman Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: This brings up an interesting point. Many people and organisations don't switch to GNU/Linux because they don't know of any real-world case studies that demonstrate its success. My information systems subjects at uni are full of real-world case studies, and we (well, at least I) learn well by reading them (we've done a few great GNU/Linux studies too :-). In one assignment earlier this year, I had to compare two e-commerce sites on a technical (not just superficial) level. Although I wanted to profile companies that ran GNU/Linux, I couldn't find any good examples on the WWW to use. In the end, I was forced to stoop to the worst possible level -- I consulted Microsoft.com. There, I found a large section full of case studies describing the systems infrastructure of companies that have decided to implement MS software. I found excellent studies of Dell.com and Compaq.com, and I proceded to compare those. The assignment turned out well, and I gained full marks. Of course, I was a bit biased in emphasising Compaq.com's rock-solid Tru64 backend :-) My point here is that GNU/Linux, or at least individual distribution companies, need to have a central case database describing in detail the various implementations GNU/Linux is used for. This, I believe, is one the most effective forms of advertising that can be done, and it can go a long way in persuading businesses to adopt GNU/Linux. Perhaps MandrakeSoft should set up their own such system, or better yet sponsor one that represents GNU/Linux as a whole, irrespective of distribution? I think I'll post this at MandrakeForum as well. It looks like a good topic for discussion :-) On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:32, Lanman wrote: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah,...Here we go again. I'd like to suggest that we send in Duke Nuke'm to slap these guys around. What they don't seem to realize (Or maybe they do???Hmmm.) is that they're not just reporting the news (?) but they're one of the biggest reasons that popularity of Linux is being affected. Have you noticed that they spend a lot of time balancing their scales when pumping out this crap? Nope, Nada! Not one story of Linux in the office and on the desktop! Nice job of reporting the news objectively ! Guess that might cut down on your readers, eh? I was just at LinuxExpo Montreal, and one guy (Glenn Jacobson, President of Unique Systems Ltd. - www.uniqsys.com ), did a presentation about the Linux desktop in action. A legal firm of 100 people all running Linux, and ONLY Linux. This was just one of his clients. And it all runs on a Linux Thin Client/Thin Server network, too ! You don't hear about the success stories, do ya ? Of course Linux is great on servers. That's a known fact. Of course Linux still needs refinement and more apps for the desktop. So did Windows when it first came out! But you never hear about the increased security on the Linux workstation compared to Windows NT, do ya? What about the U.S. federal governments' imperative to push city governments, libraries, schools, etc., into switching over to Linux? I think the article I read said something like a total of 320 different government institutions? What about India (Or was it Pakistan?) where 50% of all government networks are totally Linux? The City that I admin for in Quebec, Canada has been getting a major roll-out and a migration to Mandrake-Linux, with only a few exceptions (Graphics on PC's and Macs). The staff has been undergoing retraining, and they're loving it! No more B.S.O.D.'s, fewer lock-ups and crashes, better solitare (er, forget that one, the boss is watching!) Personally I'm getting fed up with ZDNet, and some of these Linux sites where the writers and editors are bashing Linux in the name of reporting the news. Hey guys, if you're not part of the solution, You're part of the problem. Grab a brain. After all, are you running a Pro-Linux web-site to support the Linux Community? Or did Bill Gates slip you $20.00 ? Big Guns indeed. Maybe something even bigger? Someone else just posted to this group about Linux being dead for the desktop. Nice of him to send it to the list. But look at the references that the writer used for his article ! Eazel (which due to the availability of the source code can continue to develop in the Linux community), and Corel Linux! Please, don't make me laugh! Ever since Mike Cowpland left Corel, they haven't done diddley with it. Think that might have something to do with the
