Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Micheal Espinola Jr]

I know I was there for the iPhone thread, but thankfully (I think) I have
forgotten all about it.

--
Espi



On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Jonathan Link wrote:

> Now it's officially the iPhone thread.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>
>> Yes, I realize that, and apologize. That came out very poorly.
>>
>> More later.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Michael B. Smith 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  Yeah, that's not quite what I was going for there...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:
>>> listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] *On Behalf Of *Andrew S. Baker
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:19 AM
>>> *To:* ntsysadm
>>> *Subject:* Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *>>As MBS has pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the
>>> government often prosper without customer service.*
>>>
>>> Is that that MBS pointed out? Or are you just willing to extrapolate all
>>> that in order to support your otherwise unsubstantiated argument?
>>>
>>> Does Google have a monopoly grant from the government?  Do they have
>>> good (or even comparable) customer service to Apple in the area of mobile
>>> computing?
>>>
>>> Just for the record Kurt, you are entitled to have your own views, as is
>>> everyone one else here.  The issue -- especially in a technology forum full
>>> of technologists -- is that we have, for some foolish reason, gotten it
>>> into our heads that people who present a position will not only be able to
>>> support that position logically, but will consider it their duty to do
>>> so.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
>>> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
>>> for the SMB market...*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>>
>>> No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
>>> pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
>>> prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
>>> connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
>>> sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
>>> from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
>>> outside of a metropolitan market.
>>>
>>> As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service
>>> are category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller
>>> markets - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer
>>> to buy their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though
>>> not always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
>>> market in question.
>>>
>>> Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
>>> corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
>>> etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
>>> service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
>>> that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
>>> at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
>>> within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
>>> of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>   So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category
>>> leaders) offer customer service?
>>>
>>> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
>>> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
>>> do?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *ASB*
>>>
>>> *http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* &

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Jonathan Link]

Now it's officially the iPhone thread.


On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

> Yes, I realize that, and apologize. That came out very poorly.
>
> More later.
>
> Kurt
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Michael B. Smith 
> wrote:
>
>>  Yeah, that’s not quite what I was going for there…
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:
>> listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] *On Behalf Of *Andrew S. Baker
>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:19 AM
>> *To:* ntsysadm
>> *Subject:* Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
>>
>>
>>
>> *>>As MBS has pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the
>> government often prosper without customer service.*
>>
>> Is that that MBS pointed out? Or are you just willing to extrapolate all
>> that in order to support your otherwise unsubstantiated argument?
>>
>> Does Google have a monopoly grant from the government?  Do they have good
>> (or even comparable) customer service to Apple in the area of mobile
>> computing?
>>
>> Just for the record Kurt, you are entitled to have your own views, as is
>> everyone one else here.  The issue -- especially in a technology forum full
>> of technologists -- is that we have, for some foolish reason, gotten it
>> into our heads that people who present a position will not only be able to
>> support that position logically, but will consider it their duty to do
>> so.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
>> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
>> for the SMB market…*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>
>> No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
>> pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
>> prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
>> connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
>> sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
>> from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
>> outside of a metropolitan market.
>>
>> As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service are
>> category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller markets
>> - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer to buy
>> their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though
>> not always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
>> market in question.
>>
>> Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
>> corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
>> etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
>> service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
>> that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
>> at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
>> within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
>> of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker 
>> wrote:
>>
>>   So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
>> offer customer service?
>>
>> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
>> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
>> do?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *ASB*
>>
>> *http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
>> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
>> for the SMB market…*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>
>>  On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to
>> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the
>> ideas of customer service -
>> >
>> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
>> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>> >
>> > The litmus test for these:
>> >
>> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
>> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
>>
>> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
>> should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
>> have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Ken Schaefer]

Both H&M and Hermes are “brand leaders”, but they have very differing 
approaches to the market.
Ryanair is a leader as well – I don’t think they fit well into your model.

Your hypothesis on competitive advantage doesn’t “cover the field” – likewise 
your examples of buyer behaviour apply only (at best) to individual consumers.

Pick any business model (here’s Porter’s competitive forces model - I picked 
this because it’s been around for 35 years and is still being taught): 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_five_forces_analysis and look down the list 
of competitive threats. Any successful business requires a strategy that 
eliminates threats of superior entrants – the corollary being that your own 
business is superior is a sufficient set of these areas.

Typical strategies can include:

a)  Superior customer service (which you’ve mentioned)
Or any of the following which you haven’t mentioned:

b)  Lowest cost (achieved through economies of production scale, superior 
logistics, lowest acceptable quality) <- Ryanair fits here

c)  Convenience of location(s) – whether that be online or physical 
locations

d)  Brand awareness (achieved through superior marketing, brand 
differentiation etc.)

e)  Technical or quality superiority

f)   Product feature differentiation

g)  Control of supplies of inputs

h)  Ability to retaliate against new entrants

i)   Monopoly (whether legislative or natural)

j)   Many, many more.

The world is full of leaders – from Ikea to Johnnie Walker to Nordstrom to Aldi 
to Coca Cola to mPesa. They all have differing ways that they “go to market” – 
it’s not just “customer service” that defines the leaders.

Cheers
Ken


From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On 
Behalf Of Kurt Buff
Sent: Thursday, 24 April 2014 7:58 AM
To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

Service incident, illustrative #1: I did one of my major Saturday shopping days 
there last year.I rolled the cart back into the store after unloading and drove 
home. I realized at home that I had left the pack of Fresca that my wife wanted 
in the bottom of the cart. I returned the next day while getting some things 
that were not on the list and mentioned it to the checker, to whom I nearly 
always go. She said just to grab one from the shelf, and not to worry about it.
Service incident, illustrative #2: Several times I've special ordered cuts of 
meat that weren't available in the coolers (usually English style beef short 
ribs). Several times, they've been able to accommodate me within 1/2 hour, but 
if not by then, usually in the next day or two. The only other place I've found 
with service at the meat counter anywhere near that good locally is QFC.
As for products, they have cheese, olives, beer and wine selections that I 
don't see anywhere out of specialty stores. It's a smaller local store, but 
it's bigger sibling a few miles further down the road has outstanding bread, 
cheese, meat and seafood departments. All told the chain has 6 or 8 stores 
throughout the area, and each one that I've visited has provided me with the 
same level of service.

Other things: They've performed product searches for me several times when out 
of stock. Most times it's because the product has been discontinued, but 
they're always willing. The staff there are long-term. My favorites throughout 
the store have been there for years - most of them more than 5, and closer to 
10.
Kurt


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Jonathan Link 
mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com>> wrote:
You haven't even described the service that they provide, merely that they have 
different products than the corporate chain stores.  So, the only thing that we 
can evaluate that store on, is that you say they have good customer service and 
they have a good selection of products that the large corporate chain store 
has.  So, since we have no description of what their customer service entails, 
it's a stretch to say that customer service wins.  It may very will be that 
their different product selection is enough to win.  It may boil down to a lot 
of things that make that store win.  However, that store likely doesn't scale 
nationally now, does it?  If it did, there would be more of them, right?


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Kurt Buff 
mailto:kurt.b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
True, but as I stated, they also have customer service, and I wouldn't shop 
there without it. They are genuinely nice folks who routinely make me happy to 
have shopped there.
Kurt

On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:06 AM, Jonathan Link 
mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Product selection is not customer service, per se.  Understanding one's market, 
making a niche market is not a function of customer service, it's good 
business.  Cust

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Kurt Buff]

Yes, I realize that, and apologize. That came out very poorly.

More later.

Kurt


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Michael B. Smith wrote:

>  Yeah, that’s not quite what I was going for there…
>
>
>
> *From:* listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:
> listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] *On Behalf Of *Andrew S. Baker
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:19 AM
> *To:* ntsysadm
> *Subject:* Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
>
>
>
> *>>As MBS has pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the
> government often prosper without customer service.*
>
> Is that that MBS pointed out? Or are you just willing to extrapolate all
> that in order to support your otherwise unsubstantiated argument?
>
> Does Google have a monopoly grant from the government?  Do they have good
> (or even comparable) customer service to Apple in the area of mobile
> computing?
>
> Just for the record Kurt, you are entitled to have your own views, as is
> everyone one else here.  The issue -- especially in a technology forum full
> of technologists -- is that we have, for some foolish reason, gotten it
> into our heads that people who present a position will not only be able to
> support that position logically, but will consider it their duty to do
> so.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
> the SMB market…*
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>
> No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
> pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
> prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
> connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
> sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
> from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
> outside of a metropolitan market.
>
> As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service are
> category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller markets
> - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer to buy
> their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.
>
>
>
> However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though not
> always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
> market in question.
>
> Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
> corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
> etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
> service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
> that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
> at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
> within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
> of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.
>
> Kurt
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker 
> wrote:
>
>   So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
> offer customer service?
>
> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
> do?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *ASB*
>
> *http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
> the SMB market…*
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>
>  On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
> wrote:
>
> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to
> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the
> ideas of customer service -
> >
> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
> >
> > The litmus test for these:
> >
> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
>
> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
> should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
> have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
>
> Kurt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Kurt Buff]

My apologies. I put words into his mouth that I shouldn't have, and without
meaning to.

I can only plead distraction - we laid off 17 people yesterday. It's been a
rough couple of days.

I'll continue this conversation this weekend, when I have a bit more time.

Kurt


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Andrew S. Baker  wrote:

> *>>As MBS has pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the
> government often prosper without customer service.*
>
> Is that that MBS pointed out? Or are you just willing to extrapolate all
> that in order to support your otherwise unsubstantiated argument?
>
> Does Google have a monopoly grant from the government?  Do they have good
> (or even comparable) customer service to Apple in the area of mobile
> computing?
>
> Just for the record Kurt, you are entitled to have your own views, as is
> everyone one else here.  The issue -- especially in a technology forum full
> of technologists -- is that we have, for some foolish reason, gotten it
> into our heads that people who present a position will not only be able to
> support that position logically, but will consider it their duty to do
> so.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
> the SMB market…*
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>
>> No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
>> pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
>> prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
>> connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
>> sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
>> from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
>> outside of a metropolitan market.
>>
>> As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service are
>> category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller markets
>> - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer to buy
>> their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.
>>
>> However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though
>> not always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
>> market in question.
>>
>> Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
>> corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
>> etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
>> service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
>> that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
>> at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
>> within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
>> of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker wrote:
>>
>>> So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
>>> offer customer service?
>>>
>>> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
>>> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
>>> do?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *ASB *
>>> *http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
>>> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
>>> for the SMB market…*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>>
 On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare <
 scaes...@caesare.com> wrote:
 >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you
 to companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles
 the ideas of customer service -
 >
 > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
 goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
 >
 > The litmus test for these:
 >
 > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
 customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.

 Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
 should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
 have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.

 Kurt



>>>
>>
>

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Kurt Buff]

Service incident, illustrative #1: I did one of my major Saturday shopping
days there last year.I rolled the cart back into the store after unloading
and drove home. I realized at home that I had left the pack of Fresca that
my wife wanted in the bottom of the cart. I returned the next day while
getting some things that were not on the list and mentioned it to the
checker, to whom I nearly always go. She said just to grab one from the
shelf, and not to worry about it.

Service incident, illustrative #2: Several times I've special ordered cuts
of meat that weren't available in the coolers (usually English style beef
short ribs). Several times, they've been able to accommodate me within 1/2
hour, but if not by then, usually in the next day or two. The only other
place I've found with service at the meat counter anywhere near that good
locally is QFC.

As for products, they have cheese, olives, beer and wine selections that I
don't see anywhere out of specialty stores. It's a smaller local store, but
it's bigger sibling a few miles further down the road has outstanding
bread, cheese, meat and seafood departments. All told the chain has 6 or 8
stores throughout the area, and each one that I've visited has provided me
with the same level of service.

Other things: They've performed product searches for me several times when
out of stock. Most times it's because the product has been discontinued,
but they're always willing. The staff there are long-term. My favorites
throughout the store have been there for years - most of them more than 5,
and closer to 10.

Kurt



On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Jonathan Link wrote:

> You haven't even described the service that they provide, merely that they
> have different products than the corporate chain stores.  So, the only
> thing that we can evaluate that store on, is that you say they have good
> customer service and they have a good selection of products that the large
> corporate chain store has.  So, since we have no description of what their
> customer service entails, it's a stretch to say that customer service wins.
>  It may very will be that their different product selection is enough to
> win.  It may boil down to a lot of things that make that store win.
>  However, that store likely doesn't scale nationally now, does it?  If it
> did, there would be more of them, right?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>
>> True, but as I stated, they also have customer service, and I wouldn't
>> shop there without it. They are genuinely nice folks who routinely make me
>> happy to have shopped there.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:06 AM, Jonathan Link 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Product selection is not customer service, per se.  Understanding one's
>>> market, making a niche market is not a function of customer service, it's
>>> good business.  Customer service would be like loading your car, assisting
>>> you down the aisles, picking your order on your behalf, and/or delivery to
>>> your home.
>>>
>>> It may be that they survey their customers extensively to see what they
>>> want to buy, but that's not customer service.
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff wrote:
>>>
 No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
 pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
 prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
 connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
 sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
 from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
 outside of a metropolitan market.

 As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service
 are category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller
 markets - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer
 to buy their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.

 However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though
 not always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
 market in question.

 Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
 corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
 etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
 service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
 that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
 at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
 within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
 of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.

 Kurt


 On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker wrote:

> So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
>

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[David Lum]

Shopping habits…I buy car parts from an Oregon-based business (Knect’s) vs. 
chain stores like Napa, O’Reilly, etc. based almost entirely on the fact that 
they’re not a national chain. I only go to other stores if these guys don’t 
have my part, which is amazingly rare. Their service is really no
better or worse than the national chains, and their prices are competitive 
(usually lower than NAPA), I just choose to support local when I can.

Dave

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On 
Behalf Of Don Ely
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:48 AM
To: ntsysadm
Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects


" However, that store likely doesn't scale nationally now, does it?  If it did, 
there would be more of them, right?"

But then he might not frequent them any more because they're just a big chain 
and their services would be diminished.
On Apr 22, 2014 7:29 AM, "Jonathan Link" 
mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com>> wrote:
You haven't even described the service that they provide, merely that they have 
different products than the corporate chain stores.  So, the only thing that we 
can evaluate that store on, is that you say they have good customer service and 
they have a good selection of products that the large corporate chain store 
has.  So, since we have no description of what their customer service entails, 
it's a stretch to say that customer service wins.  It may very will be that 
their different product selection is enough to win.  It may boil down to a lot 
of things that make that store win.  However, that store likely doesn't scale 
nationally now, does it?  If it did, there would be more of them, right?


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Kurt Buff 
mailto:kurt.b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
True, but as I stated, they also have customer service, and I wouldn't shop 
there without it. They are genuinely nice folks who routinely make me happy to 
have shopped there.
Kurt

On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:06 AM, Jonathan Link 
mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Product selection is not customer service, per se.  Understanding one's market, 
making a niche market is not a function of customer service, it's good 
business.  Customer service would be like loading your car, assisting you down 
the aisles, picking your order on your behalf, and/or delivery to your home.

It may be that they survey their customers extensively to see what they want to 
buy, but that's not customer service.

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff 
mailto:kurt.b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has pointed 
out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often prosper without 
customer service. Those who offer retail Internet connectivity (often WISPs), 
have customer service as a differentiator - sometimes it's their only 
differentiator, because they're shut out by law from string cable/fiber, and 
can only occupy a small niche, usually well outside of a metropolitan market.
As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service are 
category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller markets - 
but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer to buy their 
stock, and would definitely give them my custom.

However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though not 
always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the market 
in question.
Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large corporate 
chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway, etc.).  We shop at 
a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good service, and a really 
good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff that it's hard to find at 
the large chains that focus on the lowest price at the cost of service and 
selection. Their prices where I shop are usually within a percent of the large 
stores. For me (and obviously a fair number of other people, as the store is 
doing well), customer service wins.
Kurt

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker 
mailto:asbz...@gmail.com>> wrote:
So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders) offer 
customer service?
Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or anything 
approaching real customer service), while others in their category do?






ASB
http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker<http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for the 
SMB market…




On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff 
mailto:kurt.b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
mailto:scaes...@caesare.com>> wrote:
>> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to 

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Michael B. Smith]

Yeah, that's not quite what I was going for there...

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On 
Behalf Of Andrew S. Baker
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:19 AM
To: ntsysadm
Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

>>As MBS has pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government 
>>often prosper without customer service.
Is that that MBS pointed out? Or are you just willing to extrapolate all that 
in order to support your otherwise unsubstantiated argument?
Does Google have a monopoly grant from the government?  Do they have good (or 
even comparable) customer service to Apple in the area of mobile computing?
Just for the record Kurt, you are entitled to have your own views, as is 
everyone one else here.  The issue -- especially in a technology forum full of 
technologists -- is that we have, for some foolish reason, gotten it into our 
heads that people who present a position will not only be able to support that 
position logically, but will consider it their duty to do so.








ASB
http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker<http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for the 
SMB market...




On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff 
mailto:kurt.b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has pointed 
out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often prosper without 
customer service. Those who offer retail Internet connectivity (often WISPs), 
have customer service as a differentiator - sometimes it's their only 
differentiator, because they're shut out by law from string cable/fiber, and 
can only occupy a small niche, usually well outside of a metropolitan market.
As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service are 
category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller markets - 
but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer to buy their 
stock, and would definitely give them my custom.

However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though not 
always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the market 
in question.
Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large corporate 
chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway, etc.).  We shop at 
a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good service, and a really 
good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff that it's hard to find at 
the large chains that focus on the lowest price at the cost of service and 
selection. Their prices where I shop are usually within a percent of the large 
stores. For me (and obviously a fair number of other people, as the store is 
doing well), customer service wins.
Kurt

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker 
mailto:asbz...@gmail.com>> wrote:
So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders) offer 
customer service?
Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or anything 
approaching real customer service), while others in their category do?






ASB
http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker<http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for the 
SMB market...




On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff 
mailto:kurt.b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
mailto:scaes...@caesare.com>> wrote:
>> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to 
>> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the 
>> ideas of customer service -
>
> That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote goodwill 
> with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>
> The litmus test for these:
>
> Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile" customer 
> service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.

Kurt

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Steven M. Caesare]

iPhone thread

 

-sc

 

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com
[mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On Behalf Of Andrew S. Baker
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:19 AM
To: ntsysadm
Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

 

>>As MBS has pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the
government often prosper without customer service.

Is that that MBS pointed out? Or are you just willing to extrapolate all
that in order to support your otherwise unsubstantiated argument?

Does Google have a monopoly grant from the government?  Do they have
good (or even comparable) customer service to Apple in the area of
mobile computing?  

Just for the record Kurt, you are entitled to have your own views, as is
everyone one else here.  The issue -- especially in a technology forum
full of technologists -- is that we have, for some foolish reason,
gotten it into our heads that people who present a position will not
only be able to support that position logically, but will consider it
their duty to do so.   

 

 




 

 

ASB
http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker> 
Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
for the SMB market...

 

 

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by
law from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually
well outside of a metropolitan market.

As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service
are category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller
markets - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably
prefer to buy their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.

 

However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though
not always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on
the market in question.

Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very
good service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but
nice stuff that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the
lowest price at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I
shop are usually within a percent of the large stores. For me (and
obviously a fair number of other people, as the store is doing well),
customer service wins.

Kurt

 

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker 
wrote:

So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category
leaders) offer customer service?

Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer
service (or anything approaching real customer service), while others in
their category do?




 

 

ASB

http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker> 
Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
for the SMB market...

 

 

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff
 wrote:

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare
 wrote:

>> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally
true. I refer you to companies that have as at least some of their core
operating principles the ideas of customer service -
>
> That's an ends to a means. That customer service
exists to promote goodwill with regard to the customer buying products
the sell,
>
> The litmus test for these:
>
> Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the
"extra mile" customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating
product sales? No.

Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe
the question
should be: Would these companies be category leaders if
they didn't
have such good customer service? And I believe the
answer is no.

Kurt



 

 

 

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Andrew S. Baker]

*>>As MBS has pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the
government often prosper without customer service.*

Is that that MBS pointed out? Or are you just willing to extrapolate all
that in order to support your otherwise unsubstantiated argument?

Does Google have a monopoly grant from the government?  Do they have good
(or even comparable) customer service to Apple in the area of mobile
computing?

Just for the record Kurt, you are entitled to have your own views, as is
everyone one else here.  The issue -- especially in a technology forum full
of technologists -- is that we have, for some foolish reason, gotten it
into our heads that people who present a position will not only be able to
support that position logically, but will consider it their duty to do
so.








*ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
*Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
the SMB market...*




On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

> No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
> pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
> prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
> connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
> sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
> from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
> outside of a metropolitan market.
>
> As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service are
> category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller markets
> - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer to buy
> their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.
>
> However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though not
> always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
> market in question.
>
> Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
> corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
> etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
> service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
> that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
> at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
> within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
> of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.
>
> Kurt
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker wrote:
>
>> So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
>> offer customer service?
>>
>> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
>> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
>> do?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *ASB *
>> *http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
>> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
>> for the SMB market...*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you
>>> to companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles
>>> the ideas of customer service -
>>> >
>>> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
>>> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>>> >
>>> > The litmus test for these:
>>> >
>>> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
>>> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
>>>
>>> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
>>> should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
>>> have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Andrew S. Baker]

Indeed!






*ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
*Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
the SMB market...*




On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Michael B. Smith wrote:

>  Can you say "Comcast" ??
>
>
>
> I knew you could...
>
>
>
> *From:* listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:
> listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] *On Behalf Of *Andrew S. Baker
> *Sent:* Monday, April 21, 2014 6:20 PM
> *To:* ntsysadm
>
> *Subject:* Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
>
>
>
> So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
> offer customer service?
>
> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
> do?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *ASB *
> *http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
> the SMB market...*
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
> wrote:
> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to
> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the
> ideas of customer service -
> >
> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
> >
> > The litmus test for these:
> >
> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
>
> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
> should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
> have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
>
> Kurt
>
>
>

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Jonathan Link]

Hmm...


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Don Ely  wrote:

> " However, that store likely doesn't scale nationally now, does it?  If it
> did, there would be more of them, right?"
>
> But then he might not frequent them any more because they're just a big
> chain and their services would be diminished.
> On Apr 22, 2014 7:29 AM, "Jonathan Link"  wrote:
>
>> You haven't even described the service that they provide, merely that
>> they have different products than the corporate chain stores.  So, the only
>> thing that we can evaluate that store on, is that you say they have good
>> customer service and they have a good selection of products that the large
>> corporate chain store has.  So, since we have no description of what their
>> customer service entails, it's a stretch to say that customer service wins.
>>  It may very will be that their different product selection is enough to
>> win.  It may boil down to a lot of things that make that store win.
>>  However, that store likely doesn't scale nationally now, does it?  If it
>> did, there would be more of them, right?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>
>>> True, but as I stated, they also have customer service, and I wouldn't
>>> shop there without it. They are genuinely nice folks who routinely make me
>>> happy to have shopped there.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:06 AM, Jonathan Link 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Product selection is not customer service, per se.  Understanding one's
 market, making a niche market is not a function of customer service, it's
 good business.  Customer service would be like loading your car, assisting
 you down the aisles, picking your order on your behalf, and/or delivery to
 your home.

 It may be that they survey their customers extensively to see what they
 want to buy, but that's not customer service.


  On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff wrote:

> No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
> pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
> prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
> connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
> sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
> from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
> outside of a metropolitan market.
>
> As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service
> are category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller
> markets - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer
> to buy their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.
>
> However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though
> not always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on 
> the
> market in question.
>
> Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
> corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
> etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very 
> good
> service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
> that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
> at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are 
> usually
> within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
> of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.
>
> Kurt
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker wrote:
>
>> So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category
>> leaders) offer customer service?
>>
>> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service
>> (or anything approaching real customer service), while others in their
>> category do?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
>> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information
>> Security) for the SMB market…*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare <
>>> scaes...@caesare.com> wrote:
>>> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer
>>> you to companies that have as at least some of their core operating
>>> principles the ideas of customer service -
>>> >
>>> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
>>> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>>> >
>>> > The litmus test for these:
>>> >
>>> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
>>> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? 
>

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Don Ely]

" However, that store likely doesn't scale nationally now, does it?  If it
did, there would be more of them, right?"

But then he might not frequent them any more because they're just a big
chain and their services would be diminished.
On Apr 22, 2014 7:29 AM, "Jonathan Link"  wrote:

> You haven't even described the service that they provide, merely that they
> have different products than the corporate chain stores.  So, the only
> thing that we can evaluate that store on, is that you say they have good
> customer service and they have a good selection of products that the large
> corporate chain store has.  So, since we have no description of what their
> customer service entails, it's a stretch to say that customer service wins.
>  It may very will be that their different product selection is enough to
> win.  It may boil down to a lot of things that make that store win.
>  However, that store likely doesn't scale nationally now, does it?  If it
> did, there would be more of them, right?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>
>> True, but as I stated, they also have customer service, and I wouldn't
>> shop there without it. They are genuinely nice folks who routinely make me
>> happy to have shopped there.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:06 AM, Jonathan Link 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Product selection is not customer service, per se.  Understanding one's
>>> market, making a niche market is not a function of customer service, it's
>>> good business.  Customer service would be like loading your car, assisting
>>> you down the aisles, picking your order on your behalf, and/or delivery to
>>> your home.
>>>
>>> It may be that they survey their customers extensively to see what they
>>> want to buy, but that's not customer service.
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff wrote:
>>>
 No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
 pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
 prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
 connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
 sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
 from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
 outside of a metropolitan market.

 As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service
 are category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller
 markets - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer
 to buy their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.

 However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though
 not always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
 market in question.

 Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
 corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
 etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
 service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
 that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
 at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
 within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
 of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.

 Kurt


 On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker wrote:

> So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
> offer customer service?
>
> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their 
> category
> do?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
> for the SMB market…*
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare <
>> scaes...@caesare.com> wrote:
>> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer
>> you to companies that have as at least some of their core operating
>> principles the ideas of customer service -
>> >
>> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
>> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>> >
>> > The litmus test for these:
>> >
>> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
>> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? 
>> No.
>>
>> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
>> should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
>> have such go

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Jonathan Link]

You haven't even described the service that they provide, merely that they
have different products than the corporate chain stores.  So, the only
thing that we can evaluate that store on, is that you say they have good
customer service and they have a good selection of products that the large
corporate chain store has.  So, since we have no description of what their
customer service entails, it's a stretch to say that customer service wins.
 It may very will be that their different product selection is enough to
win.  It may boil down to a lot of things that make that store win.
 However, that store likely doesn't scale nationally now, does it?  If it
did, there would be more of them, right?



On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

> True, but as I stated, they also have customer service, and I wouldn't
> shop there without it. They are genuinely nice folks who routinely make me
> happy to have shopped there.
>
> Kurt
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:06 AM, Jonathan Link wrote:
>
>> Product selection is not customer service, per se.  Understanding one's
>> market, making a niche market is not a function of customer service, it's
>> good business.  Customer service would be like loading your car, assisting
>> you down the aisles, picking your order on your behalf, and/or delivery to
>> your home.
>>
>> It may be that they survey their customers extensively to see what they
>> want to buy, but that's not customer service.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>
>>> No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
>>> pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
>>> prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
>>> connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
>>> sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
>>> from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
>>> outside of a metropolitan market.
>>>
>>> As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service
>>> are category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller
>>> markets - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer
>>> to buy their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.
>>>
>>> However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though
>>> not always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
>>> market in question.
>>>
>>> Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
>>> corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
>>> etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
>>> service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
>>> that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
>>> at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
>>> within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
>>> of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker wrote:
>>>
 So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
 offer customer service?

 Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
 anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
 do?






 *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
 *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
 for the SMB market…*




 On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare <
> scaes...@caesare.com> wrote:
> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you
> to companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles
> the ideas of customer service -
> >
> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
> >
> > The litmus test for these:
> >
> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? 
> No.
>
> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
> should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
> have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
>
> Kurt
>
>
>

>>>
>>
>

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Kurt Buff]

True, but as I stated, they also have customer service, and I wouldn't shop
there without it. They are genuinely nice folks who routinely make me happy
to have shopped there.

Kurt


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:06 AM, Jonathan Link wrote:

> Product selection is not customer service, per se.  Understanding one's
> market, making a niche market is not a function of customer service, it's
> good business.  Customer service would be like loading your car, assisting
> you down the aisles, picking your order on your behalf, and/or delivery to
> your home.
>
> It may be that they survey their customers extensively to see what they
> want to buy, but that's not customer service.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>
>> No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
>> pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
>> prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
>> connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
>> sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
>> from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
>> outside of a metropolitan market.
>>
>> As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service are
>> category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller markets
>> - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer to buy
>> their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.
>>
>> However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though
>> not always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
>> market in question.
>>
>> Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
>> corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
>> etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
>> service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
>> that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
>> at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
>> within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
>> of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker wrote:
>>
>>> So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
>>> offer customer service?
>>>
>>> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
>>> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
>>> do?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
>>> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
>>> for the SMB market…*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>>
 On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare <
 scaes...@caesare.com> wrote:
 >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you
 to companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles
 the ideas of customer service -
 >
 > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
 goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
 >
 > The litmus test for these:
 >
 > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
 customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.

 Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
 should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
 have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.

 Kurt



>>>
>>
>

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Jonathan Link]

Product selection is not customer service, per se.  Understanding one's
market, making a niche market is not a function of customer service, it's
good business.  Customer service would be like loading your car, assisting
you down the aisles, picking your order on your behalf, and/or delivery to
your home.

It may be that they survey their customers extensively to see what they
want to buy, but that's not customer service.


On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

> No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
> pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
> prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
> connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
> sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
> from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
> outside of a metropolitan market.
>
> As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service are
> category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller markets
> - but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer to buy
> their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.
>
> However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though not
> always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
> market in question.
>
> Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
> corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
> etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
> service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
> that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
> at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
> within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
> of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.
>
> Kurt
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker wrote:
>
>> So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
>> offer customer service?
>>
>> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
>> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
>> do?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
>> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
>> for the SMB market…*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you
>>> to companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles
>>> the ideas of customer service -
>>> >
>>> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
>>> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>>> >
>>> > The litmus test for these:
>>> >
>>> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
>>> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
>>>
>>> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
>>> should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
>>> have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Steven M. Caesare]

Understood.

 

However it’s an example that illustrates my point.

 

-sc

 

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On 
Behalf Of Michael B. Smith
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:35 PM
To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

 

I was responding specifically to asb's second question.

Sent from my Windows Phone



From: Steven M. Caesare <mailto:scaes...@caesare.com> 
Sent: ‎4/‎21/‎2014 6:29 PM
To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

Oh, they “offer” it.

 

Is customer service a differentiator? Certainly. Would it support the company 
without the underlying service they provide customer service for? No.

 

Actually Comcast helps prove my point: A company can be sufficiently 
“incentivized”[1] by providing a service, with no satisfactory customer service 
supporting it. A company cannot provide customer service, with no underlying 
actual services/goods actually paid for[2].

 

-sc

 

[1] I rather hate that word

[2] Obviously there are “services” companies that provide only that, however 
that becomes their “product” , and they are typically an outsourced arm to 
support some other underlying good/service

 

 

 

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On 
Behalf Of Michael B. Smith
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:25 PM
To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

 

Can you say “Comcast” ??

 

I knew you could…

 

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On 
Behalf Of Andrew S. Baker
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:20 PM
To: ntsysadm
Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

 

So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders) offer 
customer service?

Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or anything 
approaching real customer service), while others in their category do?




 

 

ASB
http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker> 
Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for the 
SMB market…

 

 

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare  wrote:
>> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to 
>> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the 
>> ideas of customer service -
>
> That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote goodwill 
> with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>
> The litmus test for these:
>
> Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile" customer 
> service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.

Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.

Kurt

 

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Kurt Buff]

No, not all category leaders are good at customer service. As MBS has
pointed out, those who have monopoly grants from the government often
prosper without customer service. Those who offer retail Internet
connectivity (often WISPs), have customer service as a differentiator -
sometimes it's their only differentiator, because they're shut out by law
from string cable/fiber, and can only occupy a small niche, usually well
outside of a metropolitan market.

As well, I'm fairly sure not all companies with good customer service are
category leaders, though I think that's more often true in smaller markets
- but if I were to run across such a company, I'd probably prefer to buy
their stock, and would definitely give them my custom.

However, in most free(ish) markets, category leaders are often, though not
always, very good at customer service. It probably depends a lot on the
market in question.

Take groceries, for example. My wife and I don't shop at the large
corporate chain stores that are local to me (Albertsons, QFC, Safeway,
etc.).  We shop at a smaller locally owned store, where they have very good
service, and a really good selection - not just the basics, but nice stuff
that it's hard to find at the large chains that focus on the lowest price
at the cost of service and selection. Their prices where I shop are usually
within a percent of the large stores. For me (and obviously a fair number
of other people, as the store is doing well), customer service wins.

Kurt


On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Andrew S. Baker  wrote:

> So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
> offer customer service?
>
> Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
> anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
> do?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
> the SMB market…*
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
>> wrote:
>> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to
>> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the
>> ideas of customer service -
>> >
>> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
>> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>> >
>> > The litmus test for these:
>> >
>> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
>> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
>>
>> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
>> should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
>> have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>>
>

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Michael B. Smith]

I was responding specifically to asb's second question.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Steven M. Caesare<mailto:scaes...@caesare.com>
Sent: ‎4/‎21/‎2014 6:29 PM
To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com<mailto:ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com>
Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

Oh, they “offer” it.

Is customer service a differentiator? Certainly. Would it support the company 
without the underlying service they provide customer service for? No.

Actually Comcast helps prove my point: A company can be sufficiently 
“incentivized”[1] by providing a service, with no satisfactory customer service 
supporting it. A company cannot provide customer service, with no underlying 
actual services/goods actually paid for[2].

-sc

[1] I rather hate that word
[2] Obviously there are “services” companies that provide only that, however 
that becomes their “product” , and they are typically an outsourced arm to 
support some other underlying good/service



From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On 
Behalf Of Michael B. Smith
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:25 PM
To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

Can you say “Comcast” ??

I knew you could…

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com<mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com> 
[mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On Behalf Of Andrew S. Baker
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:20 PM
To: ntsysadm
Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders) offer 
customer service?
Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or anything 
approaching real customer service), while others in their category do?






ASB
http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker<http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for the 
SMB market…




On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff 
mailto:kurt.b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
mailto:scaes...@caesare.com>> wrote:
>> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to 
>> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the 
>> ideas of customer service -
>
> That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote goodwill 
> with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>
> The litmus test for these:
>
> Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile" customer 
> service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.

Kurt

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Steven M. Caesare]

Oh, they "offer" it.

 

Is customer service a differentiator? Certainly. Would it support the
company without the underlying service they provide customer service
for? No.

 

Actually Comcast helps prove my point: A company can be sufficiently
"incentivized"[1] by providing a service, with no satisfactory customer
service supporting it. A company cannot provide customer service, with
no underlying actual services/goods actually paid for[2].

 

-sc

 

[1] I rather hate that word

[2] Obviously there are "services" companies that provide only that,
however that becomes their "product" , and they are typically an
outsourced arm to support some other underlying good/service

 

 

 

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com
[mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On Behalf Of Michael B. Smith
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:25 PM
To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

 

Can you say "Comcast" ??

 

I knew you could...

 

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com
[mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On Behalf Of Andrew S. Baker
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:20 PM
To: ntsysadm
Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

 

So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
offer customer service?

Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
anything approaching real customer service), while others in their
category do?




 

 

ASB
http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker <http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker> 
Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
for the SMB market...

 

 

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare
 wrote:
>> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you
to companies that have as at least some of their core operating
principles the ideas of customer service -
>
> That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>
> The litmus test for these:
>
> Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales?
No.

Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.

Kurt

 

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Jon Harris]

I would like to point back to Kurt's original statement if I may and point out 
that at least one major company not only lost a lot of good will but a lot of 
sales and now faces a lot of very bad will in the form of lawsuits for their 
indirect loss of good will.  Target had a lot of good will going into the 
Christmas season but lost a lot of it due to their lack of responsiveness to 
their companies IT group not following up on alerts that they had bugs in the 
system.  They lost further good will, and sales, by not being forth coming in 
dealing with the issue and allowed it to stretch out over multiple weeks where 
others leaked the information faster than they, Target, wanted it to go public. 
 What is the out come of all of this loss of good will?  A number of their 
competitors have made hay and picked up their lost sales, and I suspect they 
have picked up customers they may not have had if Target had worked faster and 
taken more responsibility for their actions.  They are also still facing a 
number of class action lawsuits that will further cost them sales and money as 
they drag through the courts.  I would not bet against some of their 
competitors helping push the issue that most of the IT management that did not 
respond to the alerts were are still employed and in the same management 
positions they occupied when this all happened this next Holiday season.
 
Is this a loss of good will or is this not.  Companies that seem to place value 
on the good will of their customers "seem" to want to make sure they keep their 
customer if not happy, at least not mad at them.  Smaller places of business, 
think mom and pop stores, know that a happy customer will be one that comes 
back and tells friends.  Larger companies like WalMart, Target, KMart/Sears 
seem to have forgotten that and think that only prices matter.
 
Jon
 
From: mich...@smithcons.com
To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 22:24:58 +









Can you say “Comcast” ??
 
I knew you could…
 
From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com]
On Behalf Of Andrew S. Baker

Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:20 PM

To: ntsysadm

Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
 


So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders) offer 
customer service?


Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or anything 
approaching real customer service), while others in their category do?









 

 





ASB

http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker

Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for the 
SMB market…





 





 

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare  wrote:

>> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to 
>> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the 
>> ideas of customer service -

>

> That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote goodwill 
> with regard to the customer buying products the sell,

>

> The litmus test for these:

>

> Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile" customer 
> service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.

Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question

should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't

have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.



Kurt





 

  

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Michael B. Smith]

Can you say "Comcast" ??

I knew you could...

From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On 
Behalf Of Andrew S. Baker
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:20 PM
To: ntsysadm
Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders) offer 
customer service?
Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or anything 
approaching real customer service), while others in their category do?






ASB
http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker<http://xeeme.com/AndrewBaker>
Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for the 
SMB market...




On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff 
mailto:kurt.b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
mailto:scaes...@caesare.com>> wrote:
>> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to 
>> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the 
>> ideas of customer service -
>
> That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote goodwill 
> with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>
> The litmus test for these:
>
> Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile" customer 
> service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.

Kurt

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Andrew S. Baker]

So, only the category leaders (and those vying to be category leaders)
offer customer service?

Are there any category leaders that *don't* offer customer service (or
anything approaching real customer service), while others in their category
do?






*ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
*Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
the SMB market...*




On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare 
> wrote:
> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to
> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the
> ideas of customer service -
> >
> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
> goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
> >
> > The litmus test for these:
> >
> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
>
> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
> should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
> have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
>
> Kurt
>
>
>

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Steven M. Caesare]

That seems to evade the question however this is not the correct venue to 
continue this.

If you want to discuss further... you know where you can show up. ;)

-sc

> -Original Message-
> From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com
> [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Buff
> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 10:30 AM
> To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
> Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
> 
> Pretty much any market will support some number of merely (or nearly)
> competent vendors.
> 
> For some, the ultimate incentive is to be the best, because merely selling
> product isn't enough, as that is too easy. Success isn't mere survival from
> those so driven.
> 
> Kurt
> 
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Steven M. Caesare
>  wrote:
> > What is the ultimate incentive to provide the service?
> >
> > For the sake of the service itself? No. To sell product? Yes.
> >
> > -sc
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com
> >> [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Buff
> >> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 10:07 AM
> >> To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
> >> Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare
> >>  wrote:
> >> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer
> >> >> you to companies that have as at least some of their core
> >> >> operating principles the ideas of customer service -
> >> >
> >> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
> >> > goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
> >> >
> >> > The litmus test for these:
> >> >
> >> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
> >> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales?
> No.
> >>
> >> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question 
> >> should
> be:
> >> Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't have such
> >> good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
> >>
> >> Kurt
> >>
> >
> 

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Kurt Buff]

Pretty much any market will support some number of merely (or nearly)
competent vendors.

For some, the ultimate incentive is to be the best, because merely
selling product isn't enough, as that is too easy. Success isn't mere
survival from those so driven.

Kurt

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Steven M. Caesare  wrote:
> What is the ultimate incentive to provide the service?
>
> For the sake of the service itself? No. To sell product? Yes.
>
> -sc
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com
>> [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Buff
>> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 10:07 AM
>> To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
>> Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare
>>  wrote:
>> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you
>> >> to companies that have as at least some of their core operating
>> >> principles the ideas of customer service -
>> >
>> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
>> > goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>> >
>> > The litmus test for these:
>> >
>> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
>> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
>>
>> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question should 
>> be:
>> Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't have such good
>> customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Steven M. Caesare]

What is the ultimate incentive to provide the service?

For the sake of the service itself? No. To sell product? Yes.

-sc

> -Original Message-
> From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com
> [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Buff
> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 10:07 AM
> To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
> Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
> 
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare
>  wrote:
> >> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you
> >> to companies that have as at least some of their core operating
> >> principles the ideas of customer service -
> >
> > That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote
> > goodwill with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
> >
> > The litmus test for these:
> >
> > Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile"
> customer service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.
> 
> Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question should 
> be:
> Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't have such good
> customer service? And I believe the answer is no.
> 
> Kurt
> 

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Kurt Buff]

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:56 AM, Steven M. Caesare  wrote:
>> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to 
>> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the 
>> ideas of customer service -
>
> That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote goodwill 
> with regard to the customer buying products the sell,
>
> The litmus test for these:
>
> Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile" customer 
> service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.

Hrm. I don't think that's the right yardstick. I believe the question
should be: Would these companies be category leaders if they didn't
have such good customer service? And I believe the answer is no.

Kurt

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Andrew S. Baker]

*>>What is the ROI for being listed here
http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/members
*
Being listed there is a by-product of supporting something that gives them
leverage on the desktop vs Microsoft.  It's essentially the gravy that
allows people to think of them in a positive light (at least people who
care about open source software)






*ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
*Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
the SMB market...*




On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:

> On 21.04.2014 03:17, Andrew S. Baker wrote:
>
>> Companies are not *built* or incentivized for good will.  They are only
>> incentivized for profit and the mythical "shareholder value".
>>
>
> What is the ROI for being listed here
> http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/members
>
> Maybe they should create an OpenSSL Foundation, but most of the things
> that the Linux Foundation does is not sponsoring the core developers. Or
> create another working group inside the Linux Foundation. They could define
> rules and make decisions for what things should be part of an encryption
> library, and what things do not belong there, sponsor a code cleanup and
> audit, AND WRITE DOCS!
>
>
>
>

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Andrew S. Baker]

I agree that it was not a good idea to make a comparison between an entire
OS and a specific app...

But, that's what I had to work with (in responding to the NY Times article)






*ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
*Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
the SMB market...*




On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Joseph L. Casale  wrote:

> > Why some open-source project enjoy so much more corporate support than
> others
> > --
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/virtual-cio/linux-vs-openssl-support-a-matter-of-revenue-potential-60915
> >
> > Please take a look at this article and let me know what you think...
>
> So, if we're gonna compare "Linux" to "OpenSSL" then gets a few things
> straight:
>
> Linux is an operating system which is nothing without the collection of
> projects
> that provide it any use. OpenSSL is one such project, but we could have
> used Polar
> for example...
>
> If you think that is not relevant and you want to simply be pedantic, boot
> your kernel
> without *any* packages or userland, configure your network and mua, and
> reply to me...
>
> Anyways, since we compared an "Operating System" or more realistically a
> "collection"
> against a single item, this debate raises an exception:)
>
>
>

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Steven M. Caesare]

> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to 
> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the 
> ideas of customer service -

That's an ends to a means. That customer service exists to promote goodwill 
with regard to the customer buying products the sell,

The litmus test for these:

Cold the company conceivably exist by eliminating the "extra mile" customer 
service? Yes. Could they existin by eliminating product sales? No.



-sc

> -Original Message-
> From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com
> [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Buff
> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 1:49 AM
> To: ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com
> Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects
> 
> Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to
> companies that have as at least some of their core operating principles the
> ideas of customer service - Nordstrom, Les Schwab, and a few others,
> possibly Costco and UPS. I'm sure others can point out more examples, but I
> can speak directly to Nordstrom, as I worked there from 1984 to 1995.
> 
> It depends on the management - though perhaps that should be narrowed
> to "It depends on the founders" - it seems that once the founders are gone,
> many times focus on customer service is lost.
> 
> I know that I speak against my own point here, but only to say that the
> exceptions prove the rule. In general, though, I agree those that companies
> are not incentivized to support - and also note that the above companies are
> not known for supporting open source - but then they're not technology
> companies.
> 
> So, to pursue it a bit further, I'd have to say that we'd have to examine the
> marketplace a bit more carefully. It might prove useful to follow up on other
> companies that support other Open Source efforts, such as IX Systems,
> Isilon, Juniper and a few others. They support the BSD platforms in general,
> but I do not know if they support smaller, more focused projects, such as
> OpenSSL - that's a very interesting question for which I don't have an answer.
> 
> I don't know if there are any companies that support OpenSSL - it's possible
> that none do. That might be because of their focus on complete operating
> environments, or it might be because it was a
> small(er) project that got lost in the shuffle. It'll be interesting to track
> whether that project gets some corporate funding after this kerfuffle - I
> won't take any bets either way on this. I only think it's a bit soon to say.
> 
> Kurt
> 
> 
> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew S. Baker 
> wrote:
> >
> > Companies are not *built* or incentivized for good will.  They are only
> incentivized for profit and the mythical "shareholder value".   And the freer
> the market, the greater the desire for ROI.
> >
> > ASB
> > http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker
> > Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
> > for the SMB market…
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
> >>
> >> As always, it seems to boil down the the ROI on security/safety.
> >>
> >> Corporations are notorious for shedding the costs for security/safety
> whenever possible, even to their own detriment, because they don't
> understand the value of good will.
> >>
> >> Kurt
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Andrew S. Baker
>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Why some open-source project enjoy so much more corporate support
> >>> than others --
> >>> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/virtual-cio/linux-vs-openssl-support-a-m
> >>> atter-of-revenue-potential-60915
> >>>
> >>> Please take a look at this article and let me know what you think...
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ASB
> >>> http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker
> >>> Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information
> >>> Security) for the SMB market…
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> 

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Klaus Hartnegg]

On 21.04.2014 03:17, Andrew S. Baker wrote:

Companies are not *built* or incentivized for good will.  They are only
incentivized for profit and the mythical "shareholder value".


What is the ROI for being listed here
http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/members

Maybe they should create an OpenSSL Foundation, but most of the things 
that the Linux Foundation does is not sponsoring the core developers. Or 
create another working group inside the Linux Foundation. They could 
define rules and make decisions for what things should be part of an 
encryption library, and what things do not belong there, sponsor a code 
cleanup and audit, AND WRITE DOCS!

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Kurt Buff]

Re: Companies' incentives: That's not universally true. I refer you to
companies that have as at least some of their core operating
principles the ideas of customer service - Nordstrom, Les Schwab, and
a few others, possibly Costco and UPS. I'm sure others can point out
more examples, but I can speak directly to Nordstrom, as I worked
there from 1984 to 1995.

It depends on the management - though perhaps that should be narrowed
to "It depends on the founders" - it seems that once the founders are
gone, many times focus on customer service is lost.

I know that I speak against my own point here, but only to say that
the exceptions prove the rule. In general, though, I agree those that
companies are not incentivized to support - and also note that the
above companies are not known for supporting open source - but then
they're not technology companies.

So, to pursue it a bit further, I'd have to say that we'd have to
examine the marketplace a bit more carefully. It might prove useful to
follow up on other companies that support other Open Source efforts,
such as IX Systems, Isilon, Juniper and a few others. They support the
BSD platforms in general, but I do not know if they support smaller,
more focused projects, such as OpenSSL - that's a very interesting
question for which I don't have an answer.

I don't know if there are any companies that support OpenSSL - it's
possible that none do. That might be because of their focus on
complete operating environments, or it might be because it was a
small(er) project that got lost in the shuffle. It'll be interesting
to track whether that project gets some corporate funding after this
kerfuffle - I won't take any bets either way on this. I only think
it's a bit soon to say.

Kurt


On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew S. Baker  wrote:
>
> Companies are not *built* or incentivized for good will.  They are only 
> incentivized for profit and the mythical "shareholder value".   And the freer 
> the market, the greater the desire for ROI.
>
> ASB
> http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker
> Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for the 
> SMB market…
>
> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:
>>
>> As always, it seems to boil down the the ROI on security/safety.
>>
>> Corporations are notorious for shedding the costs for security/safety 
>> whenever possible, even to their own detriment, because they don't 
>> understand the value of good will.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Andrew S. Baker  wrote:
>>>
>>> Why some open-source project enjoy so much more corporate support than 
>>> others -- 
>>> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/virtual-cio/linux-vs-openssl-support-a-matter-of-revenue-potential-60915
>>>
>>> Please take a look at this article and let me know what you think...
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ASB
>>> http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker
>>> Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for 
>>> the SMB market…
>>>
>>>
>>
>

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Michael B. Smith]

I made a similar comparison on a MVP internal mailing list. There are at least 
a dozen "free" SSL implementations available.

OpenSSL was perhaps the first to be usable. But there are many others. I 
(personally) would probably have chosen to use CyaSSL if I were not using 
Windows.

-Original Message-
From: listsad...@lists.myitforum.com [mailto:listsad...@lists.myitforum.com] On 
Behalf Of Joseph L. Casale
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 9:43 PM
To: 'ntsysadm@lists.myitforum.com'
Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

> Why some open-source project enjoy so much more corporate support than 
> others
> -- 
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/virtual-cio/linux-vs-openssl-support-a-mat
> ter-of-revenue-potential-60915
>
> Please take a look at this article and let me know what you think...

So, if we're gonna compare "Linux" to "OpenSSL" then gets a few things straight:

Linux is an operating system which is nothing without the collection of 
projects that provide it any use. OpenSSL is one such project, but we could 
have used Polar for example...

If you think that is not relevant and you want to simply be pedantic, boot your 
kernel without *any* packages or userland, configure your network and mua, and 
reply to me...

Anyways, since we compared an "Operating System" or more realistically a 
"collection"
against a single item, this debate raises an exception:)

RE: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Joseph L. Casale]

> Why some open-source project enjoy so much more corporate support than others
> -- 
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/virtual-cio/linux-vs-openssl-support-a-matter-of-revenue-potential-60915
>
> Please take a look at this article and let me know what you think...

So, if we're gonna compare "Linux" to "OpenSSL" then gets a few things straight:

Linux is an operating system which is nothing without the collection of projects
that provide it any use. OpenSSL is one such project, but we could have used 
Polar
for example...

If you think that is not relevant and you want to simply be pedantic, boot your 
kernel
without *any* packages or userland, configure your network and mua, and reply 
to me...

Anyways, since we compared an "Operating System" or more realistically a 
"collection"
against a single item, this debate raises an exception:)

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Andrew S. Baker]

Companies are not *built* or incentivized for good will.  They are only
incentivized for profit and the mythical "shareholder value".   And the
freer the market, the greater the desire for ROI.






*ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
*Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
the SMB market...*




On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Kurt Buff  wrote:

> As always, it seems to boil down the the ROI on security/safety.
>
> Corporations are notorious for shedding the costs for security/safety
> whenever possible, even to their own detriment, because they don't
> understand the value of good will.
>
> Kurt
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Andrew S. Baker wrote:
>
>> Why some open-source project enjoy so much more corporate support than
>> others --
>> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/virtual-cio/linux-vs-openssl-support-a-matter-of-revenue-potential-60915
>>
>> Please take a look at this article and let me know what you think...
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
>> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security)
>> for the SMB market...*
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [NTSysADM] OT: Corporate Support of Open-Source projects

[Kurt Buff]

As always, it seems to boil down the the ROI on security/safety.

Corporations are notorious for shedding the costs for security/safety
whenever possible, even to their own detriment, because they don't
understand the value of good will.

Kurt


On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Andrew S. Baker  wrote:

> Why some open-source project enjoy so much more corporate support than
> others --
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/virtual-cio/linux-vs-openssl-support-a-matter-of-revenue-potential-60915
>
> Please take a look at this article and let me know what you think...
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
> *ASB **http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker* 
> *Providing Virtual CIO Services (IT Operations & Information Security) for
> the SMB market…*
>
>
>