subject:"Re\: \[osol\-discuss\] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express"


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On 9/9/2010 9:15 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
 Remember: Even withe the old E10K, Solaris at GA date was capable
 to use all that hardware from a single kernel... And that's more
 than 12 years back... ;-) So, scaling on cores, CPUs and thread is
 what Solaris still does better than any other big commercial OS on
 this planet...

It never shipped, (well it did kinda, but not in it's full glory) but
the group I was in at Sun had developed HW to connect multiple E6K,
and E10K machines (up to 16 if I remember correctly) together, and
scale a single kernel instance across all of them.

There just weren't enough places interested in buying a machine that
large.

  -Kyle

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express



On 9/9/2010 9:49 AM, Kyle McDonald wrote:

 It never shipped, (well it did kinda, but not in it's full glory) but
 the group I was in at Sun had developed HW to connect multiple E6K,
 and E10K machines (up to 16 if I remember correctly) together, and
 scale a single kernel instance across all of them.

Sorry, actually,  I have the models confused. It was developed for
multiple F6000/F6500, and I think it was planned to work in the F15K
also. The HW did ship to some limited customers I beleive, but only as a
HPC shared memory interconnect, (RSM might have been the product name)
between multiple kernels. I'm pretty sure we had the single kernel
scaling well in the lab though before the project was scrapped.

If anyone cares there was an earlier project to do a similar connection
between 4 E6000's, but that was killed when Sun bought Cray, and
acquired what became the E10K.

After the project for the F series was killed, the same group started
working on parts of the system (Millenium/Eagle) that would follow the F
series. At one point there was talk of doing it again running 1 kernel
on multiple boxes over IB, but that whole system was scrapped in favor
of Niagra/Fujistu systems in the short term, and 'ROCK' in the long
term... But but ROCK was also scrapped not too long before Oracle bought
Sun.

As others have said Sun was great as the engineering side of things. Not
so great at deciding what to (or not to) engineer, and not the best at
marketing the things they did engineer and build.

  -Kyle


 There just weren't enough places interested in buying a machine that
 large.

   -Kyle


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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-09 Thread Matthias Pfützner

You (Kyle McDonald)wrote:
 On 9/9/2010 9:15 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
  Remember: Even withe the old E10K, Solaris at GA date was capable
  to use all that hardware from a single kernel... And that's more
  than 12 years back... ;-) So, scaling on cores, CPUs and thread is
  what Solaris still does better than any other big commercial OS on
  this planet...
 
 It never shipped, (well it did kinda, but not in it's full glory) but
 the group I was in at Sun had developed HW to connect multiple E6K,
 and E10K machines (up to 16 if I remember correctly) together, and
 scale a single kernel instance across all of them.
 
 There just weren't enough places interested in buying a machine that
 large.
 
   -Kyle

No, I was not talking about that, I simply meant: The E10K had 64 CPUs and at
GA date, Solaris was ready to use 64 CPUs from a single kernel... Unlike the
IBM 795, which can currently have MORE CPUs than AIX is capable of
handling... ;-)

Yes, I know about all those single image things ACROSS boxes, but that's
not, what I meant in my post... ;-)

 Matthias
-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Alles Wichtige lernt man
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | durch Osmose.
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  |
Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Woody Allen
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-09 Thread Octave Orgeron

There was a solution for the Sun Fire 6800-25k servers that allowed you to do 
this. The name escapes me, but I know Sun had a course for it and sold it to 
several universities and of course the US government. Basically it consisted of 
some HBA's and a custom switch. Back in the E10k and Exx00 days, this was also 
doable through extending the UPA bus. Solaris has had the strength of scaling 
out to hundreds of CPU sockets and cores for a while. One of the interesting 
things I remember from the SPARC roadmap is that the VT Niagara cores would run 
at 3Ghz and 4-16 cores per chip. The 4 core version would scale up to 192 
sockets, so I would have assume that will be the next-gen big iron SPARC 
server. 
Needless to say, I'm looking forward to the VT series of Niagara servers. 
Hopefully we'll see the Rainbow Falls servers announced later this month at the 
Oracle conference.


*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



- Original Message 
From: Kyle McDonald kmcdon...@egenera.com
To: matth...@pfuetzner.de
Cc: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org; Karel Gardas karel.gar...@centrum.cz
Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 8:49:52 AM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express


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Hash: SHA1



On 9/9/2010 9:15 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
 Remember: Even withe the old E10K, Solaris at GA date was capable
 to use all that hardware from a single kernel... And that's more
 than 12 years back... ;-) So, scaling on cores, CPUs and thread is
 what Solaris still does better than any other big commercial OS on
 this planet...

It never shipped, (well it did kinda, but not in it's full glory) but
the group I was in at Sun had developed HW to connect multiple E6K,
and E10K machines (up to 16 if I remember correctly) together, and
scale a single kernel instance across all of them.

There just weren't enough places interested in buying a machine that
large.

  -Kyle

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-09 Thread Octave Orgeron

Yeah, I heard rumors about what the ROCK servers would have been capable of 
doing. It's a shame it didn't make it to market. But I would assume that by the 
time that could have gotten out of the door, UltraSPARC-T3 or the next SPARC64 
would have out performed it. Speaking of Infiniband, I still think that Sun 
Oracle should use that as the glue behind the CPU, Memory, and I/O and just 
goto 
a building block architecture. 


 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*





From: Kyle McDonald kmcdon...@egenera.com
To: Kyle McDonald kmcdon...@egenera.com
Cc: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org; Karel Gardas karel.gar...@centrum.cz
Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 9:04:55 AM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express



On 9/9/2010 9:49 AM, Kyle McDonald wrote:


It never shipped, (well it did kinda, but   not in it's full glory) but
the group I was in at Sun had developed HW to connect multiple   E6K,
and E10K machines (up to 16 if I remember correctly) together,   and
scale a single kernel instance across all of them.


Sorry, actually,  I have the models confused. It was developed for multiple 
F6000/F6500, and I think it was planned to work in the F15K also. The HW 
did 
ship to some limited customers I beleive, but only as a HPC shared memory 
interconnect, (RSM might have been the product name) between multiple 
kernels. I'm pretty sure we had the single kernel scaling well in the lab 
though before the project was scrapped.

If anyone cares there was an earlier project to do a similar connection 
between 4 E6000's, but that was killed when Sun bought Cray, and acquired 
what became the E10K.

After the project for the F series was killed, the same group started 
working on parts of the system (Millenium/Eagle) that would follow the F 
series. At one point there was talk of doing it again running 1 kernel on 
multiple boxes over IB, but that whole system was scrapped in favor of 
Niagra/Fujistu systems in the short term, and 'ROCK' in the long term... 
But 
but ROCK was also scrapped not too long before Oracle bought Sun. 


As others have said Sun was great as the engineering side of things. Not so 
great at deciding what to (or not to) engineer, and not the best at 
marketing the things they did engineer and build.

  -Kyle



There just weren't enough places   interested in buying a machine that
large.

  -Kyle





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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express


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On 9/9/2010 11:42 AM, Octave Orgeron wrote:
 There was a solution for the Sun Fire 6800-25k servers that allowed
 you to do this. The name escapes me, but I know Sun had a course
 for it and sold it to several universities and of course the US
 government. Basically it consisted of some HBA's and a custom
 switch.

The project name was 'WildCat' - The F6800/6900 (I guess the model
numbers were still wrong in my second post - where is my memory
going?) were  project 'serengeti' and the CPU's were members of the
cat family like 'jaguar'.

The product was able to do RSM (remote shared memory)  between
multiple kernels, and SSM (scalable shared memory) between boxes for 1
kernel. As far as I know, while the HW shipped was capable of both,
the only SW/drivers that ever shipped were for RSM mode only.

 Back in the E10k and Exx00 days, this was also doable through
 extending the UPA bus.

This sounds like the earlier project 'WildFire' (for the Sunfire
project machines). As I recall it relaced the IO 'blade', and was a
custom bus.  It may have beta'd to a few places but It never shipped.

- -Kyle

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express


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On 9/9/2010 10:27 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
 No, I was not talking about that, I simply meant: The E10K had 64
 CPUs and at GA date, Solaris was ready to use 64 CPUs from a single
 kernel... Unlike the IBM 795, which can currently have MORE CPUs
 than AIX is capable of handling... ;-)

Yes. I know you weren't talking about that HW. I was taking it
further, and adding how much further than that Solaris scaled.

The E15K I believe eventually got dual core CPU's and so went 128
cores later. Solaris handled that in stride too.

 Yes, I know about all those single image things ACROSS boxes, but
 that's not, what I meant in my post... ;-)

 Matthias
But the WildCat project would have taken 16 F6900's linked together to
768 cores running 1 instance of Solaris.  1 box or 16, when run like
that it behaves like 1 box.  If you're not in the room looking at the
machine you'd never know it wasn't 1 box.

I thought the fact that Solaris could scale that far in 2002 or so
helped proved your point even further.

  -Kyle


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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-09 Thread Orvar Korvar

Are you speculating or do you have some substance? You seem to know a bit about 
AIX kernel code?
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-09 Thread Richard L. Hamilton

[...]
 Perhaps some sort of side project can be started to
 look at a generic
 way of making device driver sources from Linux and
 the BSDs work with
 the OpenSolaris kernel (as separate Solaris modules
 so there are no
 clashes between the CDDL and GPL/BSD licenses.)  Most
 of the devices are
 block or character mode, so perhaps some sort of
 compatibility framework
 could be built?  Linux certainly has a lot more
 supported drivers for
 hardware than opensolaris, if there was a way to port
 a majority of
 those drivers, we wouldn't have to rely on Oracle for
 them, nor would we
 have to rewrite them all from scratch if there was
 some compatibility
 layer.  Granted not everything would work immediately
 out of the box,
 but for stuff like USB and PCI devices, as long as it
 doesn't depend on
 too many things inside the Linux or BSD kernel, it
 might work.  (And
 those callbacks could be implemented in another
 layer.)  I recall about
 5-10 years ago the idea of a captive driver on Linux
 where you could use
 windows NT drivers under Linux, for example.

Solaris x86 AFAIK could use _some_ Windows
drivers with a similar approach, in particular network drivers.
This has been done, and might be ok for desktops, but might not
be reliable enough for anything else.  See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Driver_Interface_Specification
and then
http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Community+Group+laptop/ndis

I think that people had decent luck with it for 32-bit OS and drivers
for laptop WiFi support, but there was some problem with register
usage convention differences or something like that making it
unlikely to get 64-bit OS+drivers to work.

Beyond that, there was a broader framework, the Uniform Driver Interface,
intended to work cross-platform on a variety of Unix-like OSs.  It never
really caught on, perhaps in part because the Linux/GPL fanboys
thought it would lead to either others using their work or to a
proliferation of portable but closed drivers.  See
http://wiki.osdev.org/Uniform_Driver_Interface

I _think_ that at one time there was some experimental code
to implement UDI for Solaris, but I'm having a tough time finding
the latest version of the reference implementation, let alone
whether the UDI code for Solaris was ever released.

Anyway, I doubt there are enough drivers available for UDI to be
worth it, and likely no new ones.

Even aside from getting people to realize that _everyone_ benefits
from portable drivers (except maybe the ideological purity fanatics),
there's also the chicken-or-egg problem, like with alternative fuels:
who is going to build the cars (drivers) unless the fuel stations (OSs)
are there, but who is going to provide high quality performant OS
support unless the drivers are there?

And of course no portable interface will be a perfect match for
any system, so that there will be _some_ performance hit, or
inability to take advantage of advanced OS or hardware features, or
something like that.

If it were easy (technically, but even more getting the cooperation), we'd
probably be using something like that already.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-09 Thread Richard L. Hamilton

 Are you speculating or do you have some substance?
 You seem to know a bit about AIX kernel code?

He's not wrong about AIX history - it has had parts of its
kernel pageable for a long time.  But that is less important now
than it was once, esp. since CPUs are so fast, and disks, while large
capacity, haven't kept up in terms of speed increases.

But I don't know that there's reason to believe that IBM would dump
the AIX kernel, although they might well want to simplify it.

As a matter of history, while most other Unix implementations didn't
have pageable kernels, they did have a vestige of swapping, which
let one particular per-process kernel data structure be written out
to swap when the process was seriously idle.  The original division
struct proc and struct user dates back to before demand paging, when
entire processes were swapped out (no V-to-P translation and memory
management hardware back then).  At that time, struct proc was an
array (later, other structures to make it dynamically resizable; but
originally one had to recompile some kernel object files to tune) of
all the per-process data that had to be in memory at all times, with
a pointer to a struct user; struct user for the current process could
be accessed via struct user u (but not by interrupt handlers, which
didn't have process context), while others would be elsewhere in
memory or written off to swap.  I'd written a user-space implementation
of fuser for an SVR2 based system; demand paging at that time,
but still with the ability to swap out the user struct.  It had to look
read the proc array in from /dev/kmem, and then look at each one
and try to track down whether the user struct for that process was
in memory or on disk, so that it could fetch it to follow the file
descriptors to the file table and then to the inode table, to eventually
see if the inode matched that of the file whose use one wanted to
check on.

At some point (I don't recall if SunOS 4.x kept struct user in RAM or
swapped it out), SunOS/Solaris went to keeping the user struct in
RAM at all times.  Probably as memory got bigger and cheaper, it
wasn't worth the bother of swapping out the user struct anymore,
and gave better performance not to.  So now, struct user is
entirely within struct proc on Solaris.

(And don't even think about systems that used a microkernel,
which could have done even stranger things.  Not just Mach-based,
either.  Remember Apollo Domain OS?  Or Sun's experimental Spring OS,
from which came the doors mechanism?  Or Chorus, which Sun owned
for awhile, before releasing the parts they owned?  (That's changed hands
a couple of times since then.))

So the history part rings true enough.  But since AIX as we know it
now is only on Power CPUs, it's not like IBM needs all those x86
drivers from BSD or Linux anyway.  So replacing their kernel with
something else (with all the work required to keep binary application
compatibility and performance) may well not make sense.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

Those news are 7 years old! things have changed since then

What things have changed since then? Do you have any links where IBM executives 
take back what they said?

It is said: The roadmap is to kill AIX in the future. It makes sense, as Linux 
is selling more than AIX. And x86 is soon faster than POWER7. Sandybridge and 
Bulldozer is almost as fast as POWER7. Linux is cheaper than AIX, and x86 soon 
offers equal performance as POWER. 

IBM is already betting on Linux. If IBM executives say that AIX is going to be 
killed in the future and you claim it is not true - I expect you have links 
that support you. Otherwise you are just speculating.

In short, AIX has not a bright future. But Solaris has. There are no really big 
applications that are used to drive AIX sales. But Oracle is an application 
company, and will use Solaris to drive application sales. I expect Solaris to 
grow it's user base. And Illumos will also grow. This is Solaris revival.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

But I still think if Oracle does not change it's current ideas for solaris it 
will die out. Solaris has always been more advaced then linux but that has not 
stop shops migrating to linux

Everyone knows that Unix lost ground. The thing is, there have never been a 
compelling reason to switch to Solaris, except technological. Oracle will now 
try to make all their customers switch to Solaris. I dont see why Solaris will 
diminish then. There is a huge potential market. 

Of course, if Oracle's customers will still prefer Linux efter Oracle has been 
pushing Solaris, then Solaris has a problem. But Oracle will make Solaris the 
better alternative, with new killer functionality. And there will also be 
business reasons to switch to Solaris, not only technological reasons. The new 
killer functionality (probably involving DTrace) and the business reasons to 
switch - will make the customers switch, I think. If that does not succeed, 
then Solaris has a problem.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Milan Jurik


 Hi,

On  7.09.10 19:33, Orvar Korvar wrote:

IBM has publicly said that they are phasing out AIX in favour of Linux. AIX 
will be killed. IBM has said that officially.

Here is links that confirm my claim. Just google a bit and you will see.

http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/application-development/2003/01/29/ibm-linux-will-replace-aix-2129537/

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-982512.html


I am aware of these very old news. And I would guess their plans 
changed... Only my personal guessing.


Best regards,

Milan
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Joerg Schilling

Orvar Korvar knatte_fnatte_tja...@yahoo.com wrote:

 It doesnt matter how much Unix has lost ground. I agree that Unix lost 
 ground, everyone knows that. The question is not about the past. Let us 
 instead try to look into the future instead.

 Oracle has 370.000 customers and they pay big money. Sun had 35.000 
 customers. Oracle will make sure that their database plays best together with 
 Solaris 11. And Exadata is switching to Solaris too. Larry will make sure 
 there are not only technological reasons to switch to Solaris, but also 
 business reasons.

In Germany we call this a Milchmädchenrechnung.

A big number of customers does not result in the ability to sell more.

Sun has been extremely successfull in the 1980s. In that time, the company I 
worked for (H. Berthold AG - a German typesetting company) did sell 25% of all
produced Sun machines. An even bigger Sun HW seller at that time was Kodak.

So the majority of all sold machines in that time have been sold by only two
companies. Any attempt to earn more money costs you a big effort

The number of direct customers in irrelevant, what counts is how many end users 
you can reach by your marketing network and I doubt that Oracle is able to 
reach a significant additional number of end users.

Also important is a strategy to reach new customers in the time frame 5-10 years
from now. To bne successful here, you need to penetrate universities and 
research institutes.

Sun had a big change to really enhance the number of end users if they did 
succeed with buying Apple as Apple has a working marketing network for the high 
volume market.



Now let us look at what Sun did recently:

Sun did not really care about the universities but there have been a lot of 
students that started with OpenSolaris recently.

Sun had the chance to sell a big number machines to European Governmental sites.
Sun recently failed to sell 35000 SunRay based working places to the city of 
Berlin. This was interest from the governmental institutions in Berlin, but HP 
later made the trade. Given the fact that the example in Berlin has influence 
for at least whole Germany, this was a bad deal for Sun.

What did Oracle change on that situation:

Oracle stopped updating the OpenSolaris source and caused the interest in the 
universities to be significantly reduced.

Oracle raised the prices for SunRay based wroking places and caused even less 
interest in a Oracle based server infrastructure in big sites by this decision.

Let us see whether Oracle is able to learn from mistakes and let us see whether 
this happens in a time before previous decisions did already kill the market.
Just remember the effect of the Solaris x86 delay announcement from early 
2002.


Jörg

-- 
 EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
   j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni)  
   joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: 
http://schily.blogspot.com/
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread usafverteran

That is nonsense and just tabloid talk.

IBM just recently announced AIX 7 for their POWER 7 server line.  Linux cannot 
in any way use the full capabilities of POWER architecture the way it is 
exploited with AIX.  If IBM was to eliminate AIX, they would have to also kill 
their POWER architecture, which isn't going to happen.

Their POWER servers have a good margin and they make money from them.  There 
are also very large companies that run AIX and have no intention to turn over 
their AIX-powered servers to Linux on cheap x86 hardware.

Linux doesn't have anywhere near the features that AIX can boast about.  RHEL 
clustering is a joke at best, and Xen virtualization clustering on RHEL is 
about as pathetic as one can get.  There isn't any way I would entrust my 
company to RHEL for mission critical workloads.  Absolutely not.  

There is a complete fabrication that Linux is cheaper than AIX or Solaris.  
Well, if I want to setup an infrastructure to patch, install, and maintain 
servers, it won't cost me any money to use NIM or JumpStart.  However, to get 
those features with Red Hat Satellite server, you will pay hundreds per 
machine.  So if you have 1000 servers you need to provision with RHEL, then you 
just spent $600,000 - $700,000.  When they come out with KVM in RHEL 6, if you 
want to manage them it will cost you a few hundred more per virtual.  EVERY 
time one turns around, Red Hat is charging for some feature that is free with 
AIX.

Xen virtualization compared to AIX DLPARs is laughable.  AIX has had more 
features for 10 years than Red Hat is rolling out in RHEL 6.

No big AIX applications?  Oracle runs on AIX.  DB2 runs on AIX.  WebSphere runs 
on AIX.  SAP runs on AIX.  

AIX runs banking, transportation, finance, retail, health care, insurance, 
defense, any sector of the economy you can think of.

There is an old saying, you get what you pay for.  That cannot be more true 
than it is with Linux.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Mike Gerdts

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:10 AM, usafverteran us...@yahoo.com wrote:
That is nonsense and just tabloid talk.

IBM just recently announced AIX 7 for their POWER 7 server line. Linux
cannot in any way use the full capabilities of POWER architecture the way it
is exploited with AIX. If IBM was to eliminate AIX, they would have to also
kill their POWER architecture, which isn't going to happen.

Their POWER servers have a good margin and they make money from them. There
are also very large companies that run AIX and have no intention to turn over
their AIX-powered servers to Linux on cheap x86 hardware.

Linux doesn't have anywhere near the features that AIX can boast about. RHEL
clustering is a joke at best, and Xen virtualization clustering on RHEL is
about as pathetic as one can get. There isn't any way I would entrust my
company to RHEL for mission critical workloads. Absolutely not.

There is a complete fabrication that Linux is cheaper than AIX or Solaris.
Well, if I want to setup an infrastructure to patch, install, and maintain
servers, it won't cost me any money to use NIM or JumpStart. However, to get
those features with Red Hat Satellite server, you will pay hundreds per
machine. So if you have 1000 servers you need to provision with RHEL, then
you just spent $600,000 - $700,000. When they come out with KVM in RHEL 6,
if you want to manage them it will cost you a few hundred more per virtual.
EVERY time one turns around, Red Hat is charging for some feature that is
free with AIX.

The analog to Jumpstart is Kickstart. Kickstart is free. On x86
hardware, a typical network-based installation consists of PXE (DHCP +
TFTP) + HTTP, FTP, and/or NFS. There are options for doing it purely
from a CD/DVD and other non-network media. It is free and has been
part of the OS for over a decade. This is starting to sound rather
like Jumpstart, isn't it?

From 2000:

http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-6-Manual/ref-guide/

From 2010:

http://www.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/6-Beta/html/Installation_Guide/ch-kickstart2.html

The up2date and/or similar commands have been around for a long time
to automatically patch (upgrade RPMs). Sun's free options have varied
over time and from my experience have been more of a PITA than
up2date.

I still prefer Solaris. I'm just calling BS on this argument.

--
Mike Gerdts
http://mgerdts.blogspot.com/
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread usafverteran

Businesses that use RHEL use their Satellite server and don't use kickstart and 
other methods that are free because they want support.

Hence they shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars annually to save money 
over expensive AIX and Solaris.

And up2date?  Apparently you aren't very versed with RHEL.  That is an old 
version.  New versions of RHEL seem to constantly get new commands.

Bottom line is Linux DOESN'T save a company money when they want support, and 
the features of Linux don't even come close to matching what AIX has, and has 
had for 10 years in some cases.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

You are free to speculate of course. But when IBM executives say something, 
there is some substance in what they say. More substance than in a speculation.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread David Brodbeck


On Sep 8, 2010, at 7:44 AM, usafverteran wrote:

 Businesses that use RHEL use their Satellite server and don't use kickstart 
 and other methods that are free because they want support.

They serve different functions.  The satellite server is used for centrally 
deploying software updates; kickstart is used for doing automated installations.

 And up2date?  Apparently you aren't very versed with RHEL.  That is an old 
 version.  New versions of RHEL seem to constantly get new commands.

It was up2date up through RHEL4, then they switched to yum, which is a much 
more capable package manager.  It's a bit like Solaris's switch to IPS, except 
that the underlying package format stayed the same and only the management tool 
changed.  Frankly, up2date was a bit of a pain and I wasn't sad to see it go.  
yum is a lot more flexible.

-- 

David Brodbeck
System Administrator, Linguistics
University of Washington




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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

How is that nonsense?

IBM has said OFFICIALLY they are going to kill AIX. When IBM say so, is it 
nonsense of me to repeat what IBM said? How is it nonsense? In fact, it makes 
very sense to repeat what IBM say. Actually, it is nonsense to reject IBMs own 
official statements. In other words, it is you that talk nonsense.

When Linus Torvalds said that Linux is bloated and I repeat that - am I 
talking nonsense? 



Regarding POWER. AIX runs on POWER, yes. What happens to AIX if POWER dies? 
Then AIX probably dies too. IBM is not interested in porting AIX to x86. Why 
would they? Then they can not charge outrageously high prices for AIX. When 
people can compare AIX prices on x86, to ordinary x86 vendors - they will be 
shocked.

And yes, POWER has a bleak future. It will die eventually. x86 is today almost 
as fast as POWER7, for a fraction of the price. The biggest POWER7 machine has 
64 sockets. Intel Nehalem-EX scales to 256 sockets. Earlier, POWER and SPARC 
crushed x86. Nowadays, x86 is getting so much resources it has the fastest 
development pace. It will very soon beat POWER (Sandybridge and Bulldozer is 
soon out, and next next generations are soon out long before POWER). 

x86 and POWER: they are competing in the same territory: few heavy weight 
threads. x86 will win this race, there is too much money in x86.

x86 and SPARC: x86 has won in terms of performance

x86 and Niagara: Niagara has found it's niche and wins in multi threaded work 
loads. Niagara T3 and T4 will rock the boat and no other cpu can match Niagara 
in its niche.

Ergo, POWER is dying. AIX will die too. Then it makes sense for IBM to shift to 
Linux. IBM just tries to milk the cow as long as possible. When x86 outperforms 
POWER (or gives equal performance) for a fraction of the price, there are no 
reasons to stuck with ultra expensive slower AIX gear. POWER will go the same 
way as Itanium goes. Itanium is soon dead too - too slow and too expensive. 
POWER will soon be the next Itanium. And of course, SPARC will also die. But 
Niagara will give far more performance than any other cpu, so it might live.

Only way POWER and SPARC can live, is if they give much higher performance (not 
likely as x86 is catching up) or if they are cheaper than x86 (not likely, 
because of the mass volumes of Intel and AMD).

Solaris runs on x86, so it will live. AIX will die. As a coincidence, IBM has 
officially said that AIX will be killed in favour of Linux on x86. Make your 
bets.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread usafverteran

You're using an article 7 to 8 years old to base your conjecture?  Why would 
they spend millions developing AIX if it was being killed?

You also fail to realize transportation, finance, insurance, banking, retail, 
defense, and all sectors of the economy run AIX.  They have no intention of 
running their operations deemed critical to cheap x86 hardware running Linux.

POWER is the first chip to have decimal floating point on-chip!  

There is something to be said for developing your operating system to run on 
your hardware (AIX and POWER).  That way you can expoit RAS.  This isn't 
possible with x86 and Linux.  I have seen so many Linux servers crash with no 
explanation why.  Clusters that are unstable.  

AIX is stable.  That is what many companies want, so they continue to buy a 
solid architecture.

But whatever, kebabble.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Brian Utterback

On 09/08/10 13:36, usafverteran wrote:
 You're using an article 7 to 8 years old to base your conjecture?  Why would 
 they spend millions developing AIX if it was being killed?
 
 You also fail to realize transportation, finance, insurance, banking, retail, 
 defense, and all sectors of the economy run AIX.  They have no intention of 
 running their operations deemed critical to cheap x86 hardware running Linux.
 
 POWER is the first chip to have decimal floating point on-chip!  
 
 There is something to be said for developing your operating system to run on 
 your hardware (AIX and POWER).  That way you can expoit RAS.  This isn't 
 possible with x86 and Linux.  I have seen so many Linux servers crash with no 
 explanation why.  Clusters that are unstable.  
 
 AIX is stable.  That is what many companies want, so they continue to buy a 
 solid architecture.
 
 But whatever, kebabble.

Well, we can infer one of several possibilities:

1. IBM was lying, and they never had any intention of killing AIX.
Doesn't seem likely; it is hard to imagine a scenario where this would
make sense.

2. They changed their minds but didn't announce it.

3. The original plan was very long term.

Number 2 seems the most likely to me.

-- 
blu

It's bad civic hygiene to build technologies that could someday be
used to facilitate a police state. - Bruce Schneier
---|
Brian Utterback - Solaris RPE, Oracle Corporation.
Ph:603-262-3916, Em:brian.utterb...@oracle.com
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Rob Healey

Actually, its less the name AIX will be dropped but more that AIX will be 
transformed into the Power port of Linux and called AIX. 

The user space has been mostly Linux for quite a while and I suspect there will 
be much rejoicing in kernel, Why the HECK did we obsess with a kernel that can 
page itself land when they finally do the secret switch of the old school 
AIX kernel with the new school Linux based AIX kernel.

AIX is a brand name that I doubt IBM would ever give up but there are plenty of 
good reasons to drop the legacy AIX kernel for the more modern Linux based 
replacement.

Speaking as someone who has been shaking his head at the AIX kernel 
implementation since ROMP days in the 80's...

-Rob
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Octave Orgeron

FYI, 256 sockets is nothing. For years universities and governments have linked 
E15k/E25ks together into single image servers, and you can put 72 CPU's in each 
of those servers. Same thing for the Fujitsu PrimePower 1500/2500. SPARC and 
Solaris have had this scaling capability for ages. The issue is costs. This is 
no different from Intel, while they could scale up, the problem is lack of 
chipsets and hardware vendors to support it. Right now, with everyone scaling 
CPU cores and threads, chasing after sockets makes less sense. Which is why 
both 
Sun Oracle and IBM only have 64 socket servers around, not enough demand for 
something bigger. And it's those 64 socket servers that blow the competition 
away on OLTP, Java, SAP, etc benchmarks, not x86.

Who's going to build the 256 socket Intel Nehalem-EX beast? Unisys?? There have 
been options in the market to link x86 boxes together using infiniband for a 
while, but the market penetration is pretty weak. The big problem for x86 is 
that Intel has upped the bandwidth for CPU-memory, but hasn't done much to 
address I/O. Hell it wasn't until recently that Intel and AMD added IOMMU's 
into 
their CPUs.. something that has been around since the 90's for SPARC. Until an 
x86 manufacturer makes a truly balanced (CPU/MEM/IO) and RAS capable server, 
there will continue to be a market for Sun Oracle and IBM to petal their 
big-iron. Come on, you still can't hardware partition an x86 box or get past 
all 
the old x86isms. 


Intel and AMD use RISC cores with CISC converters anyways:) RISC already won 
the 
battle, it's just that OS's like MS windows and Linux still need the CISC x86 
support in hardware. There was even a time when AMD had partnered with 
DEC/Compaq to make socket compatible systems to swap in Alpha chips. That was 
probably the best CPU to blow away all the others, that roadmap had 8 cores 
over 
10 years ago! But we all know how that turned out with HP and Intel. I bet if 
Intel and AMD were to dump the CISC conversions and go pure RISC, x86 would 
really scream. But lots of other things to address before they could ever do 
that.

And for all those HPC x86 linux fans, here's something you probably didn't 
know. 
Back when governments, labs, and universities started to switch over to x86 
Linux, it had nothing to do with performance. It was all about up-front 
costs. 
To replace what a rack of dual or quad socket DEC Alpha servers could do, you'd 
need several racks of x86 servers. Sure those x86 servers were cheaper 
up-front, but were more expensive to run and operate. The overhead for power, 
cooling, cabling, and management far out-weighed the cost of smaller RISC 
solutions. This is no different today in the Enterprise. x86 is cheap, it's 
fast, but you need a whole boat load more of it to do the same amount of work. 
I 
can give plenty of examples where x86/Linux requires more physical servers than 
to do the same workload on Solaris with T-series servers. It's not always about 
who can run at the fastest clock speed.

So either you spend the money on the RISC solution which is higher up-front 
costs, but easier to maintain and manage due to lower TCO.. or you go with 
Intel/AMD and the Penguin to save up-front costs and spend more on your TCO. 
That's the real situation right now in the enterprise. No different than it was 
10 years ago in HPC environments.

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



- Original Message 
From: Orvar Korvar knatte_fnatte_tja...@yahoo.com
To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 12:17:25 PM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express

How is that nonsense?

IBM has said OFFICIALLY they are going to kill AIX. When IBM say so, is it 
nonsense of me to repeat what IBM said? How is it nonsense? In fact, it makes 
very sense to repeat what IBM say. Actually, it is nonsense to reject IBMs own 
official statements. In other words, it is you that talk nonsense.

When Linus Torvalds said that Linux is bloated and I repeat that - am I 
talking nonsense? 




Regarding POWER. AIX runs on POWER, yes. What happens to AIX if POWER dies? 
Then 
AIX probably dies too. IBM is not interested in porting AIX to x86. Why would 
they? Then they can not charge outrageously high prices for AIX. When people 
can 
compare AIX prices on x86, to ordinary x86 vendors - they will be shocked.

And yes, POWER has a bleak future. It will die eventually. x86 is today almost 
as fast as POWER7, for a fraction of the price. The biggest POWER7 machine has 
64 sockets. Intel Nehalem-EX scales to 256 sockets. Earlier, POWER and SPARC 
crushed x86. Nowadays, x86 is getting so much resources it has the fastest

Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Ken Mays

Orvar (kebabber) said:
 IBM has publicly said that they are phasing out AIX in favour of Linux.

Yes, some analysts made statements like this but it never was officially put in 
stone.
Most of the time, people speculate on such greener grass until reality hits 
them.

Linux is not at the level of AIX. You may think AIX does not have a bright 
future - but wasn't that also said about Linux in the data center?!?

Is not a diamond just a shiny crystal rock???

~ Ken Mays
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Edward Ned Harvey

Wow, we're still using this list to blather on about speculation about
random unrelated unknown and hypothetical nonsense?  I thought those days
were finally behind us.

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Edward Martinez

 
 You also fail to realize transportation, finance,
 insurance, banking, retail, defense, and all sectors
 of the economy run AIX.  They have no intention of
 running their operations deemed critical to cheap x86
 hardware running Linux.
 

 
 There is something to be said for developing your
 operating system to run on your hardware (AIX and
 POWER).  That way you can expoit RAS.  This isn't
 possible with x86 and Linux.  I have seen so many
 Linux servers crash with no explanation why.
  Clusters that are unstable.  
 
 AIX is stable.  That is what many companies want, so
 they continue to buy a solid architecture.
 


Many companies are beginning to realize that the future is Linux. Few RedHat 
customer success story : 
NYSE Euronext
Nationwide Mutual Insurance Co.

Union Pacific Corporation
Michigan Millers Mutual Insurance Company
FarmaLink

Industry: Healthcare: Prescription Drug Administrator
Alpine Electronics
 Union Bank, N.A.
GEICO (Government Employees Insurance Company)
The City of Burbank.
and many more on their site

http://customers.redhat.com/


partial list of Oracle enterprise. linux customers:

A.C. Moore
ABC Stores
Abercrombie  Fitch
Activision
Acuity Brands
Arcturus Realty
Beaumont Medical Hospitals
Board of Governors, State University System of Florida
Bonnier Publishing
Centre de Services Partages du Quebec
City of Las Vegas
The Cobalt Group
Cox Enterprises
Data Intensity
Dell
Deseret Power
Diebold Fulcrum Analytics
The Gem Group
Georgian College
GlobeCast
Hays Medical Center
IHOP
Interactive One
Knife River Corporation
KPN
Lower Colorado River Authority
McKesson
MercadoLibre
Merial
Mitsubishi
Mutual Materials
Netmania
New York State Insurance Department
Nissan  Parks Victoria
Primavera Systems
Powell Industries
Replacements, Ltd.
Siemens USA
SK Telecom
Spaulding Equipment Company
Stanford University
Stemilt Growers
Stuart Maue
Timex
University of Massachusetts
ValueCentric
Vcommerce
Yahoo!
etc
http://www.oracle.com/us/technologies/linux/025990.htm

many from this list are fortune 500 companies,goverments,etc and they all trust 
their operations on linux and i'm sure they have it running on x86 units. 

even of all US Military sectors loves linux:



Real-time Linux powers Air Force F-16 simulators
Lockheed Martin to use a real-time Linux platform to train fighter pilots
http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/linux/2007/0115linux1.html


Air Force Unhappy With Removal of Linux from PS3
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/USAF-air-force-playstation-ps3-other-os,10417.html

Linux headed into Boeing antisub aircraft
http://news.cnet.com/Linux-headed-into-Boeing-antisub-aircraft/2100-7344_3-6100043.html

quote  from  OF ARMS AND LINUX :
The next time you see high-tech weapons on the nightly news or hear a military 
jet thunder overhead, there’s probably a stalwart penguin saving lives and tax 
money at the same time.

http://www.open-mag.com/70329338346.shtml

more at:
Linux Used by All Branches of U.S. Military
http://www.suseblog.com/linux-used-by-all-branches-of-us-military/


I still think if oracle does not change it's current plans for solaris( damaged 
brand,sales are declining) the future will belong to windows and linux.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-08 Thread Octave Orgeron

Sadly, all OS vendors list big name companies as customers. Unfortunately, none 
of them release installation counts. Speaking as someone who has worked in the 
financial services industry and done consulting over the years, most fortune 
500 
companies have a little bit of everything. So just because they use Linux, 
Solaris, AIX, HPUX, Windows, MacOS X, etc.. doesn't mean they run their whole 
business on just one of those platforms. I still know of companies that have 
things like OS/2 and PDP-11's running mission critical services. Just because 
everyone has some Linux in their environment doesn't mean much at the end of 
the 
day. The reality is that companies use different platforms for specific needs. 
This is no different than software. Take a look at databases, some people use 
Oracle DB, others use MS SQL or Sybase. Doesn't mean any one product will 
satisfy everyone's needs. Solaris is still #1 in the commercial UNIX market. 
Red 
Hat does well in the US, but not so well in the EU. Asia buys tons of Fujitsu 
x86 and SPARC servers, but not much traction in the US market. Bottom line is 
all platforms have a place in the industry, if not they wouldn't be making 
money. Sun was making good money, just didn't know how to operate or market 
itself properly against that income. Same problems that DEC had if you really 
think about it. It'll take a money savvy company like Oracle to turn things 
around and I think it will. It's not the pro-engineer, open source, give it all 
way for free, company that Sun was, but it knows how to turn a profit.

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



- Original Message 
From: Edward Martinez mindbende...@live.com
To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 10:29:38 PM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express

 
 You also fail to realize transportation, finance,
 insurance, banking, retail, defense, and all sectors
 of the economy run AIX.  They have no intention of
 running their operations deemed critical to cheap x86
 hardware running Linux.
 

 
 There is something to be said for developing your
 operating system to run on your hardware (AIX and
 POWER).  That way you can expoit RAS.  This isn't
 possible with x86 and Linux.  I have seen so many
 Linux servers crash with no explanation why.
  Clusters that are unstable.  
 
 AIX is stable.  That is what many companies want, so
 they continue to buy a solid architecture.
 


Many companies are beginning to realize that the future is Linux. Few RedHat 
customer success story : 

NYSE Euronext
Nationwide Mutual Insurance Co.

Union Pacific Corporation
Michigan Millers Mutual Insurance Company
FarmaLink

Industry: Healthcare: Prescription Drug Administrator
Alpine Electronics
Union Bank, N.A.
GEICO (Government Employees Insurance Company)
The City of Burbank.
and many more on their site

http://customers.redhat.com/


partial list of Oracle enterprise. linux customers:

A.C. Moore
ABC Stores
Abercrombie  Fitch
Activision
Acuity Brands
Arcturus Realty
Beaumont Medical Hospitals
Board of Governors, State University System of Florida
Bonnier Publishing
Centre de Services Partages du Quebec
City of Las Vegas
The Cobalt Group
Cox Enterprises
Data Intensity
Dell
Deseret Power
Diebold   Fulcrum Analytics
The Gem Group
Georgian College
GlobeCast
Hays Medical Center
IHOP
Interactive One
Knife River Corporation
KPN
Lower Colorado River Authority
McKesson
MercadoLibre
Merial
Mitsubishi
Mutual Materials
Netmania
New York State Insurance Department
Nissan   Parks Victoria
Primavera Systems
Powell Industries
Replacements, Ltd.
Siemens USA
SK Telecom
Spaulding Equipment Company
Stanford University
Stemilt Growers
Stuart Maue
Timex
University of Massachusetts
ValueCentric
Vcommerce
Yahoo!
etc
http://www.oracle.com/us/technologies/linux/025990.htm

many from this list are fortune 500 companies,goverments,etc and they all trust 
their operations on linux and i'm sure they have it running on x86 units. 


even of all US Military sectors loves linux:



Real-time Linux powers Air Force F-16 simulators
Lockheed Martin to use a real-time Linux platform to train fighter pilots
http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/linux/2007/0115linux1.html


Air Force Unhappy With Removal of Linux from PS3
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/USAF-air-force-playstation-ps3-other-os,10417.html


Linux headed into Boeing antisub aircraft
http://news.cnet.com/Linux-headed-into-Boeing-antisub-aircraft/2100-7344_3-6100043.html


quote  from   OF ARMS AND LINUX :
The next time you see high-tech weapons on the nightly news or hear a military 
jet thunder overhead, there’s probably a stalwart penguin saving

Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Orvar Korvar

It doesnt matter how much Unix has lost ground. I agree that Unix lost ground, 
everyone knows that. The question is not about the past. Let us instead try to 
look into the future instead.

Oracle has 370.000 customers and they pay big money. Sun had 35.000 customers. 
Oracle will make sure that their database plays best together with Solaris 11. 
And Exadata is switching to Solaris too. Larry will make sure there are not 
only technological reasons to switch to Solaris, but also business reasons.

The customers that want to utilize Oracle Database to the full extent, must use 
Solaris 11. What will those customers do? Switch or stay on Linux? You can not 
easily migrate from one database to another. In short, the future (not the 
past) looks bright. Solaris adoption rate among Oracle's current customers are 
low, and there is a huge growth potential there. If Oracle can make even a tiny 
percent to switch, then Oracle has reverted the trend and Solaris is actually 
increasing market share.

Solaris itself can not revert the declining trend, but Oracle will use Solaris 
to drive their applications better than any other OS. And people use and care 
about applications.

In short, Solaris has greater potential to grow than ever before (370.000 new 
customers). Or in other words, the future is bright for Solaris.
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Octave Orgeron

If you guys pay attention to what Larry has stated, Solaris is the number 1 
platform used by their customers, Linux is number 2. So that means a good chunk 
of that 370,000 customer base is already on Solaris. So it's really an easy win 
for Oracle to push more Solaris on that customer base. 


And for those who believe that SPARC is doing really bad, keep this in mind.. 
Sun Oracle sold over 1.5 times more Solaris SPARC servers than IBM Power and 
over 2 times more than HP Itanium. That was for the last quarter, which was bad 
for the overall server market, but still shows greater demand for Solaris SPARC 
than for Power or Itanium based servers. It has been this way for years with 
Solaris SPARC unit sales out pacing IBM Power and HP Itanium. The problem Sun 
had was making the kind of money IBM and HP made, which is no surprise when 
most 
IBM sales for comparable hardware costs 2-3 times more than the Sun solution. 
Perhaps if Sun had charged an arm and leg for each server and feature, they 
would still be around today as an independent company. Again, Sun Oracle is in 
the top 5 server makers by volume and profit globally. So there is plenty of 
demand;)

I totally agree that Oracle will make Solaris 11 the most attractive platform 
for their products. They are already making Dtrace probes for all of their 
apps, 
which if you think about it means it'll be the best platform for support and 
performance, regardless if it's on SPARC or x86. Oracle has a powerful sales 
team and they'll push the Solaris on Sun Oracle hardware as the base.

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



- Original Message 
From: Orvar Korvar knatte_fnatte_tja...@yahoo.com
To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 3:47:39 AM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express

It doesnt matter how much Unix has lost ground. I agree that Unix lost ground, 
everyone knows that. The question is not about the past. Let us instead try to 
look into the future instead.

Oracle has 370.000 customers and they pay big money. Sun had 35.000 customers. 
Oracle will make sure that their database plays best together with Solaris 11. 
And Exadata is switching to Solaris too. Larry will make sure there are not 
only 
technological reasons to switch to Solaris, but also business reasons.

The customers that want to utilize Oracle Database to the full extent, must use 
Solaris 11. What will those customers do? Switch or stay on Linux? You can not 
easily migrate from one database to another. In short, the future (not the 
past) 
looks bright. Solaris adoption rate among Oracle's current customers are low, 
and there is a huge growth potential there. If Oracle can make even a tiny 
percent to switch, then Oracle has reverted the trend and Solaris is actually 
increasing market share.

Solaris itself can not revert the declining trend, but Oracle will use Solaris 
to drive their applications better than any other OS. And people use and care 
about applications.

In short, Solaris has greater potential to grow than ever before (370.000 new 
customers). Or in other words, the future is bright for Solaris.
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Milan Jurik


 Hi Orvar

On  6.09.10 17:06, Orvar Korvar wrote:

IBM has publicly said that they are phasing out AIX in favour of Linux. AIX 
will be killed. IBM has said that officially.


Really? Where? Could you point on some recent info around this, please?

Best regards,

Milan
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Octave Orgeron

I'm not saying x86 isn't a good platform. It's good for a lot of general 
purpose 
stuff and Solaris x86 runs great on it. But I think it's inevitable that with 
the way x86 is causing server sprawl, it'll have to mature significantly. 
Otherwise, shops will see the true benefit in consolidating to big iron again. 
And if you disagree, look at the x86 server market, it's driving towards higher 
socket counts 4-8 as the sweet spot for VMware. Why? because the compression 
ratio for 1-2 socket servers is too low and the I/O capacity there is weak. 
Customers are facing huge challenges with virtualization. They expected lower 
TCO across the board, but in reality it costs a lot up-front to implement and a 
lot to manage in the long term. Blades and rackmount x86 servers are getting 
denser and denser. At the same time, they require greater power and cooling. 
This can't be maintained forever. It's already starting to cost clients more to 
support these large VMware farms overall than to invest in non-x86 equipment. 
The time is coming again for big iron, may not be your grandpas mainframe 
fridge, but it'll do a lot more with less space and overhead.

Now could something like ARM or another architecture come along and change all 
of that? Definitely! But x86 is getting long in the tooth and won't last 
forever. Even Intel sees that and has sunk billions into Itanium, which is a 
huge flop. It's nice to see x86 catch up on the multi-core/multi-threaded 
front, 
but the biggest bottle neck is I/O and heat hands down.

And as far as places like Google go, they don't use standard x86 gear. They get 
gigabyte to make custom motherboards. They use their own power supplies, 
batteries, etc. It's a total custom job. Not to mention they spend billions on 
their custom cabinets and facilities. They operate on the concept of being able 
to take massive hits due to statelessness of their software, which doesn't 
always work BTW. Now compare that to the enterprise, totally different! 
Enterprises don't have software models like that, they run on the concept of 
state-full software transactions, because they can't afford to loose a 
transaction. And do you think enterprise companies would invest that heavily in 
IT to build things from scratch? NOPE! I'm willing to bet that if Google could 
switch to something like an ARM processor, they would. It's inevitable that 
they 
will do something like that in time.

From what I've seen in the enterprise market, most shops have about 60-70% on 
x86 with the rest on a mix of Solaris SPARC, AIX Power, and Mainframe. Rarely 
do 
I see HP-UX or any Itanium. Now, guess where the majority of the profits and 
data for those companies sit. It's not on x86 or Linux. And most of the x86 
they 
do have is for Windows hands down. Linux typically makes up about 10-20% of the 
x86 foot-print. Do I see that has a problem? Nope! It makes perfect sense. 
Linux 
is where most companies stick their low hanging fruit applications, services, 
and development because it's cheap. The Solaris and AIX systems are fewer, but 
they support mission critical applications and services. And windows, well it's 
everywhere, not much you can do about that. Hell I haven't seen a company with 
any non-Windows desktops for its employees in years! If it's not windows, it's 
usually someone with a Mac laptop!

So am I saying that Solaris SPARC will dominate the data center? No, that's 
insane. Do I think Solaris can grow in the data center? Absolutely, especially 
as customers with 8-10 year old servers finally upgrade. Do I think Linux is 
that big of a threat? No. It's just pushing Solaris and AIX higher up on the 
food-chain and reducing the mainframe foot-print. Could Linux be displaced by 
something else over time, absolutely. It's still an immature and young platform 
that most companies aren't heavily in bed with. Hey there was a time when a lot 
of companies had BSD boxes laying around, even Hotmail and Yahoo ran on that 
for 
a while. 


So who knows, with the way everyone is buying iPhones, iPads, and Macs (Macs 
out 
paced normal PC sales recently), who knows what the future holds:)

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*





From: Fabio Kaminski fabiokamin...@gmail.com
To: Octave Orgeron unixcons...@yahoo.com
Cc: usafverteran us...@yahoo.com; opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 11:59:17 PM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express

dream, dream, dream, dream ...


x86 is comming, and is taking large server share( and linux with it ), and the 
only Risc is growing up, is ARM because of the mobile market boom...

Solaris will be another AIX, because

Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Gary

As an interesting side note, prior to Oracle launching Unbreakable
Linux I noticed that critical db patches (not quarterly bundles) were
usually released for Solaris followed shortly by Linux and Windows
versions. After Oracle started their Linux initiative, I noticed that
they all had roughly equal release dates with only Windows patches
trailing now and then. Whether this changes now remains to be seen.

As for AIX, I haven't seen any word of its retirement. In fact, IBM
are busy working on version 7 as it's currently in open beta:
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/software/aix/v71/preview.html

-Gary
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Octave Orgeron

Yeah, Oracle has shift back and forth between Solaris x86 and Linux for 
development over the past 5 years. So with Oracle Solaris and OEL, they'll have 
to support both equally. 


As for AIX, they are definitely spending money on developing it. Solaris 10 was 
a huge wake up call for IBM and they put a lot of effort into AIX 6. But the 
big 
difference for AIX is that IBM out-sources a lot of the development and 
purchases features from small companies. A good example is how WPARs was a 
feature they got from an acquisition. Most of the ports that have been done for 
AIX over the years have been done by 3rd parties like Locus and Collective. I 
have no idea as to the size of their development team, but I've always had the 
impression that it's small and augmented by out-sourcing firms when they have 
major features to integrate.

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



- Original Message 
From: Gary gdri...@gmail.com
To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 10:35:30 AM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express

As an interesting side note, prior to Oracle launching Unbreakable
Linux I noticed that critical db patches (not quarterly bundles) were
usually released for Solaris followed shortly by Linux and Windows
versions. After Oracle started their Linux initiative, I noticed that
they all had roughly equal release dates with only Windows patches
trailing now and then. Whether this changes now remains to be seen.

As for AIX, I haven't seen any word of its retirement. In fact, IBM
are busy working on version 7 as it's currently in open beta:
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/software/aix/v71/preview.html

-Gary
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Fabio Kaminski

Ok, now that make sense :)

i think, the secret to know how they think.. is to look through the optics
of profit and market.. thats very different from sun, wich posess a hibrid
view, between technology and market.. sort like google do..


On  Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Octave Orgeron unixcons...@yahoo.comwrote:

 If you guys pay attention to what Larry has stated, Solaris is the number 1
 platform used by their customers, Linux is number 2. So that means a good
 chunk
 of that 370,000 customer base is already on Solaris. So it's really an easy
 win
 for Oracle to push more Solaris on that customer base.


 And for those who believe that SPARC is doing really bad, keep this in
 mind..
 Sun Oracle sold over 1.5 times more Solaris SPARC servers than IBM Power
 and
 over 2 times more than HP Itanium. That was for the last quarter, which was
 bad
 for the overall server market, but still shows greater demand for Solaris
 SPARC
 than for Power or Itanium based servers. It has been this way for years
 with
 Solaris SPARC unit sales out pacing IBM Power and HP Itanium. The problem
 Sun
 had was making the kind of money IBM and HP made, which is no surprise when
 most
 IBM sales for comparable hardware costs 2-3 times more than the Sun
 solution.
 Perhaps if Sun had charged an arm and leg for each server and feature, they
 would still be around today as an independent company. Again, Sun Oracle is
 in
 the top 5 server makers by volume and profit globally. So there is plenty
 of
 demand;)

 I totally agree that Oracle will make Solaris 11 the most attractive
 platform
 for their products. They are already making Dtrace probes for all of their
 apps,
 which if you think about it means it'll be the best platform for support
 and
 performance, regardless if it's on SPARC or x86. Oracle has a powerful
 sales
 team and they'll push the Solaris on Sun Oracle hardware as the base.


  *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
 Octave J. Orgeron
 Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
 Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
 E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



 - Original Message 
 From: Orvar Korvar knatte_fnatte_tja...@yahoo.com
 To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
 Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 3:47:39 AM
 Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with
 Solaris
 11 Express

 It doesnt matter how much Unix has lost ground. I agree that Unix lost
 ground,
 everyone knows that. The question is not about the past. Let us instead try
 to
 look into the future instead.

 Oracle has 370.000 customers and they pay big money. Sun had 35.000
 customers.
 Oracle will make sure that their database plays best together with Solaris
 11.
 And Exadata is switching to Solaris too. Larry will make sure there are not
 only
 technological reasons to switch to Solaris, but also business reasons.

 The customers that want to utilize Oracle Database to the full extent, must
 use
 Solaris 11. What will those customers do? Switch or stay on Linux? You can
 not
 easily migrate from one database to another. In short, the future (not the
 past)
 looks bright. Solaris adoption rate among Oracle's current customers are
 low,
 and there is a huge growth potential there. If Oracle can make even a tiny
 percent to switch, then Oracle has reverted the trend and Solaris is
 actually
 increasing market share.

 Solaris itself can not revert the declining trend, but Oracle will use
 Solaris
 to drive their applications better than any other OS. And people use and
 care
 about applications.

 In short, Solaris has greater potential to grow than ever before (370.000
 new
 customers). Or in other words, the future is bright for Solaris.
 --
 This message posted from opensolaris.org
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Orvar Korvar

 IBM has publicly said that they are phasing out AIX in favour of Linux. AIX 
 will be killed. IBM has said that officially.

Here is links that confirm my claim. Just google a bit and you will see.

http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/application-development/2003/01/29/ibm-linux-will-replace-aix-2129537/

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-982512.html
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Ignacio Marambio Catán

Those news are 7 years old! things have changed since then

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Orvar Korvar
knatte_fnatte_tja...@yahoo.com wrote:
 IBM has publicly said that they are phasing out AIX in favour of Linux. AIX 
 will be killed. IBM has said that officially.

 Here is links that confirm my claim. Just google a bit and you will see.

 http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/application-development/2003/01/29/ibm-linux-will-replace-aix-2129537/

 http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-982512.html
 --
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Gary

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 10:33 AM PDT, Orvar Korvar wrote:

 Here is links that confirm my claim. Just google a bit and you will see.

From a LinuxWorld conference in January of '03? Interestingly, Steve
Mills now heads their hardware group in addition to their software
group... http://www.ibm.com/press/us/en/biography/10066.wss

and the AIX 7 beta program was launched just this past July:
http://www.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/32121.wss

It seems that they're taking their sweet time if they truly plan to
phase out AIX but if you look through their server press releases
you'll find plenty of mention of AIX support for their recently
announced big iron servers.
http://www.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressreleases/recent.wss

-Gary
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread David Brodbeck


On Sep 6, 2010, at 1:00 PM, usafverteran wrote:
 Every day I see Linux servers and clusters crash with nary an explanation as 
 to the cause.  Red Hat support and Novell support are unable to give an 
 answer, so the problems continue.

I've actually gotten fairly good responses from RedHat, when I'm able to file a 
good, specific bug report.  It's true that they aren't always able to hold your 
hand if you can't figure out specifics, but the various Linux developer mailing 
lists do a good job of that.

I got pretty good response to bug reports from OpenSolaris, too, but now the 
fixes for those bugs are about to be walled off.  It was always a little dodgy, 
even at best -- with RedHat I can file a ticket directly and participate in 
resolving it, but with OpenSolaris I would file a ticket in their public 
Bugzilla, which didn't actually mean anything, and hope someone would vacuum it 
up into their internal bug database, where it would be worked on but I could no 
longer participate in the discussion.

I suppose it would be different if I had it in my budget to pay $1000/core 
annually for a support package, but that's a lot to pay for the privilege of 
helping debug someone else's software.

-- 

David Brodbeck
System Administrator, Linguistics
University of Washington




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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Edward Martinez

 It doesnt matter how much Unix has lost ground. I
 agree that Unix lost ground, everyone knows that. The
 question is not about the past. Let us instead try to
 look into the future instead.
 
 Oracle has 370.000 customers and they pay big money.
 Sun had 35.000 customers. Oracle will make sure that
 their database plays best together with Solaris 11.
 And Exadata is switching to Solaris too. Larry will
 make sure there are not only technological reasons to
 switch to Solaris, but also business reasons.
 
 The customers that want to utilize Oracle Database to
 the full extent, must use Solaris 11. What will those
 customers do? Switch or stay on Linux? You can not
 easily migrate from one database to another. In
 short, the future (not the past) looks bright.
 Solaris adoption rate among Oracle's current
 customers are low, and there is a huge growth
 potential there. If Oracle can make even a tiny
 percent to switch, then Oracle has reverted the trend
 and Solaris is actually increasing market share.
 
 Solaris itself can not revert the declining trend,
 but Oracle will use Solaris to drive their
 applications better than any other OS. And people use
 and care about applications.
 
 In short, Solaris has greater potential to grow than
 ever before (370.000 new customers). Or in other
 words, the future is bright for Solaris.

I'm not looking for an arugument or trying to soud like a troll,. But I still 
think if Oracle does not change it's current ideas for solaris it will  die 
out. Solaris has always been more advaced then linux  but that has  not stop  
shops   migrating to linux,again, that is why in 2005 sun opensourced solaris 
and added x86 support,to attract customers to it. solaris while still being 
opensourced and  with x86 support not to mention with free updates did not do 
that well against  linux. linux  on  x86 platforms were still outselling 
solaris. I don't thik it matters how advance  oracle make solaris to be, it 
will continue to decrese.unless  oracle  repairs  the failed brand   before 
starting to charge for contracts  at $1000+. I think customers will  demand 
oracle to focus it's  database on linux and oracle will need to deliver.  i 
liked solaris and i was excited when it were opensourced but now i think it's 
put right back on its death path. IDC analyst numbers:  In two years li
 nux shipmets were 5.1 millon. solaris only had  747,000 shipments,  not 
good...and that is while solaris got opensourced and free to use. so all those 
neat new advances   that were added to solaris meant squawk.   

excerpt:


Thanks to its strong support of the x86 hardware architecture, in terms of 
overall volume, Linux is just a much higher volume product than Solaris ever 
was, says Al Gillen, an IDC analyst. IDC data show that worldwide Linux 
shipments in 2006 were about 2.4 million in 2006 and nearly 2.7 million in 
2007. By contrast, Solaris shipments totaled 376,000 in 2006 and 371,000 last 
year.

Solaris, Zemlin says, is losing market share because it does not have a good 
price performance or value proposition.

Zemlin also disputes Sun's notion that Solaris technology gives it an edge over 
Linux. The only people I hear talk about DTrace [Solaris's technology for 
assessing program and OS behaviours] and ZFS [the Zettabyte File System] as 
competitive features [are] Sun Microsystems sales representatives. It's not 
something I believe is impacting the market in any way, he says.


http://www.infoworld.com/d/networking/sun-solaris-its-deathbed-837
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Gary Driggs

On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Edward Martinez quoted:
 Thanks to its strong support of the x86 hardware architecture, in terms of 
 overall volume, Linux is just a much higher volume product than Solaris ever 
 was, says Al Gillen, an IDC analyst.

Volume of licenses tells us nothing about the kind of hardware it's being 
deployed on. This is a poor metric for analyzing a hardware market share.

 IDC data show that worldwide Linux shipments in 2006 were about 2.4 million 
 in 2006 and nearly 2.7 million in 2007. By contrast, Solaris shipments 
 totaled 376,000 in 2006 and 371,000 last year.

And would this include licenses for Novell'a enterprise desktop offering?

 Solaris, Zemlin says, is losing market share because it does not have a good 
 price performance or value proposition.

I'd be curious too see the source because the opinion of two dozen marketing 
analysts is rarely equivalent to that of a single experienced sysadmin.

 Zemlin also disputes Sun's notion that Solaris technology gives it an edge 
 over Linux. The only people I hear talk about DTrace [Solaris's technology 
 for assessing program and OS behaviours] and ZFS [the Zettabyte File System] 
 as competitive features [are] Sun Microsystems sales representatives. It's 
 not something I believe is impacting the market in any way, he says.

q.v. my last statement. Of course, they're unlikely to share their supporting 
data if it even exists. I'm sure it's top secret  highly technical 
(translation: we help gen a shit pile of ad revenue for Intel, DELL, et al).

-Gary
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Edward Martinez

 On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Edward Martinez quoted:
  Thanks to its strong support of the x86 hardware
 architecture, in terms of overall volume, Linux is
 just a much higher volume product than Solaris ever
 was, says Al Gillen, an IDC analyst.
 
 Volume of licenses tells us nothing about the kind of
 hardware it's being deployed on. This is a poor
 metric for analyzing a hardware market share.
 
  IDC data show that worldwide Linux shipments in
 2006 were about 2.4 million in 2006 and nearly 2.7
 million in 2007. By contrast, Solaris shipments
 totaled 376,000 in 2006 and 371,000 last year.
 
 And would this include licenses for Novell'a
 enterprise desktop offering?
 
  Solaris, Zemlin says, is losing market share
 because it does not have a good price performance or
 value proposition.
 
 I'd be curious too see the source because the opinion
 of two dozen marketing analysts is rarely equivalent
 to that of a single experienced sysadmin.
 
  Zemlin also disputes Sun's notion that Solaris
 technology gives it an edge over Linux. The only
 people I hear talk about DTrace [Solaris's technology
 for assessing program and OS behaviours] and ZFS [the
 Zettabyte File System] as competitive features [are]
 Sun Microsystems sales representatives. It's not
 something I believe is impacting the market in any
 way, he says.
 
 q.v. my last statement. Of course, they're unlikely
 to share their supporting data if it even exists. I'm
 sure it's top secret  highly technical (translation:
 we help gen a shit pile of ad revenue for Intel,
 DELL, et al).
 
 -Gary
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Well i don't want  to start disrepecting my follow solaris users/devs  with 
this turning into  a heated argument, so i will end my  discussion on this 
topic by saying, i really hope oracle has a nice trick up their sleve for 
solaris 11 : -) 

Regards 
Edward
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Gary

You wrote:

 Well i don't want  to start disrepecting my follow solaris users/devs with 
 this turning into a heated argument

Sorry if my comments came across too strong... I honestly would like
to see the IDC quotes in context, however, as I have mixed feelings
about orgs like IDC re their sources and/or motives.

 i really hope oracle has a nice trick up their sleve for solaris 11 : -)

I'll second that.

kind regards,
Gary
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Brian Utterback

On 09/07/10 16:42, Edward Martinez wrote:
 Zemlin also disputes Sun's notion that Solaris technology gives it an edge 
 over Linux. The only people I hear talk about DTrace [Solaris's technology 
 for assessing program and OS behaviours] and ZFS [the Zettabyte File System] 
 as competitive features [are] Sun Microsystems sales representatives. It's 
 not something I believe is impacting the market in any way, he says.
 

Every Oracle Storage 7000 system that ships shows that ZFS and DTrace
do make a difference. You can't build those without ZFS and DTrace,
and without the value their value add, there isn't much to
differentiate those systems from others on the market.

Sun was pretty good at coming up with new tech, but they never knew
how to execute on that tech in a compelling manner for customers.
Oracle has been much better at that historically, so I think you can
count on the benefits of the tech being communicated more effectively
in the future.
-- 
blu

It's bad civic hygiene to build technologies that could someday be
used to facilitate a police state. - Bruce Schneier
---|
Brian Utterback - Solaris RPE, Oracle Corporation.
Ph:603-262-3916, Em:brian.utterb...@oracle.com
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Erik Trimble

 Honestly, (and I'm not speaking in any way as an Oracle insider, or 
from any inside knowledge), the question is not Will Solaris Survive?, 
the real question is Will Solaris continue to be a General Purpose 
Computing OS/platform?



Oracle (pre-Sun) was massively invested in Solaris as their primary 
development OS for the DB products (that is, Oracle did development on 
Solaris, then ported the fixes to other platforms).  I don't think 
that's changed.  Now that they own Solaris, I can't imaging that 
anything but improving the Oracle DB/Solaris coupling is on their minds. 
Solaris also provides some real nice Enterprise Storage possibilities, 
plus some other vertical integration opportunities.


The question here is if Oracle is willing (or interested) in keeping the 
ISV market for Solaris alive and well.  That's what will keep Solaris 
going as a General Purpose OS (i.e. one where I buy some hardware, put 
Solaris on it, then run random things).  Otherwise, it's going to move 
into a bundle concept, where you buy a thing (appliance, 
pre-configured software, etc.) to perform a specific task, and, oh, by 
the way, the underlying OS is Solaris. Virtualization, Storage, 
DataBase, Java Containers are all areas where Oracle is bundling Solaris 
with an app to sell a solution.


The Bundle concept can be massively profitable, and maintain a 
significant competitive advantage over build-it-yourself solutions.  
However, without specifically courting and maintaining ISV 
relationships, Solaris will not be able to avoid complete 
marginalization and not-so-far-away death as a general-purpose platform. 
It's a matter of where Oracle wants to make money, and if they value the 
extra revenue that being a GP-OS brings, vs the effort it requires to 
maintain this presence.


--
Erik Trimble
Java System Support
Mailstop:  usca22-123
Phone:  x17195
Santa Clara, CA

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Paul Gress


On 09/ 7/10 09:51 PM, Erik Trimble wrote:
 Honestly, (and I'm not speaking in any way as an Oracle insider, or 
from any inside knowledge), the question is not Will Solaris 
Survive?, the real question is Will Solaris continue to be a General 
Purpose Computing OS/platform?



Oracle (pre-Sun) was massively invested in Solaris as their primary 
development OS for the DB products (that is, Oracle did development on 
Solaris, then ported the fixes to other platforms).  I don't think 
that's changed.  Now that they own Solaris, I can't imaging that 
anything but improving the Oracle DB/Solaris coupling is on their 
minds. Solaris also provides some real nice Enterprise Storage 
possibilities, plus some other vertical integration opportunities.


The question here is if Oracle is willing (or interested) in keeping 
the ISV market for Solaris alive and well.  That's what will keep 
Solaris going as a General Purpose OS (i.e. one where I buy some 
hardware, put Solaris on it, then run random things).  Otherwise, it's 
going to move into a bundle concept, where you buy a thing 
(appliance, pre-configured software, etc.) to perform a specific task, 
and, oh, by the way, the underlying OS is Solaris. Virtualization, 
Storage, DataBase, Java Containers are all areas where Oracle is 
bundling Solaris with an app to sell a solution.


The Bundle concept can be massively profitable, and maintain a 
significant competitive advantage over build-it-yourself solutions.  
However, without specifically courting and maintaining ISV 
relationships, Solaris will not be able to avoid complete 
marginalization and not-so-far-away death as a general-purpose 
platform. It's a matter of where Oracle wants to make money, and if 
they value the extra revenue that being a GP-OS brings, vs the effort 
it requires to maintain this presence.




The above makes sense, except I keep thinking that Oracle stated they're 
going to invest more money into Solaris than Sun did, so maybe there is 
room for a General Purpose Computing OS/Platform.


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-07 Thread Jason

It would be a marked departure from their past behavior.

If you look at most of their products, they are almost all merely
means to get you to buy an RDBMS license.  The whole appliance concept
pretty much falls into that as well.  The concept of a general purpose
OS does not (I suppose they could always make SMF use Oracle as the
storage backend, or otherwise weld it in there somehow, but that would
probably be pushing it).

Their past behavior of substantially increasing license costs for
acquired products also would tend to make Solaris less attractive as a
general purpose OS if they repeat themselves here as well (those that
can will go to Linux to run stuff that doesn't come from Oracle).


On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:55 PM, Paul Gress pgr...@optonline.net wrote:
 On 09/ 7/10 09:51 PM, Erik Trimble wrote:

  Honestly, (and I'm not speaking in any way as an Oracle insider, or from
 any inside knowledge), the question is not Will Solaris Survive?, the real
 question is Will Solaris continue to be a General Purpose Computing
 OS/platform?


 Oracle (pre-Sun) was massively invested in Solaris as their primary
 development OS for the DB products (that is, Oracle did development on
 Solaris, then ported the fixes to other platforms).  I don't think that's
 changed.  Now that they own Solaris, I can't imaging that anything but
 improving the Oracle DB/Solaris coupling is on their minds. Solaris also
 provides some real nice Enterprise Storage possibilities, plus some other
 vertical integration opportunities.

 The question here is if Oracle is willing (or interested) in keeping the ISV
 market for Solaris alive and well.  That's what will keep Solaris going as a
 General Purpose OS (i.e. one where I buy some hardware, put Solaris on it,
 then run random things).  Otherwise, it's going to move into a bundle
 concept, where you buy a thing (appliance, pre-configured software, etc.) to
 perform a specific task, and, oh, by the way, the underlying OS is Solaris.
 Virtualization, Storage, DataBase, Java Containers are all areas where
 Oracle is bundling Solaris with an app to sell a solution.

 The Bundle concept can be massively profitable, and maintain a significant
 competitive advantage over build-it-yourself solutions.  However, without
 specifically courting and maintaining ISV relationships, Solaris will not be
 able to avoid complete marginalization and not-so-far-away death as a
 general-purpose platform. It's a matter of where Oracle wants to make money,
 and if they value the extra revenue that being a GP-OS brings, vs the effort
 it requires to maintain this presence.


 The above makes sense, except I keep thinking that Oracle stated they're
 going to invest more money into Solaris than Sun did, so maybe there is room
 for a General Purpose Computing OS/Platform.

 Paul

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-06 Thread Orvar Korvar

IBM has publicly said that they are phasing out AIX in favour of Linux. AIX 
will be killed. IBM has said that officially. Development pace is slowing down. 
IBM is shifting more resources to Linux. I wouldnt bet on AIX in the long term. 
On the other hand, Solaris has a far larger user base today. Sun had 35.000 
customers. Oracle has 370.000 customers. Oracle will try hard to make them 
switch to Solaris 11. Solaris has a bright future. AIX has not.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-06 Thread Robert Milkowski


On 29/08/2010 23:34, usafverteran wrote:

Does Solaris 10 have Active Memory Expansion?  Does Solaris 10 have Workload 
Manager?

   


yes, and yes.
Both were available even before Solaris 10.





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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-06 Thread Edward Martinez

 11. Solaris has a bright future.


 i don't think so. Linux has been running solaris out of the server rooms for a 
long time, that is why in 2005 SUN decided to open up solaris and give solaris 
away freely hoping that would  attract customers. from 2005 -2009 things did   
seem more promising  for solaris, then here comes Oracle reverts solaris back 
to that point in time when it begin to  die. UNIX(solaris,aix,etc) sales are 
rapidly decreasing, a system running linux and nehalen is as good a sparc 
system. so I think if oracle continues managing solaris with  it's current 
model the future will belong to linux and windows. With Linux around, I don't 
expect many customers are willing to pay the current prices for solaris 
contracts. 

quote:
n 2005, Sun released the source code to Solaris,  described then as the 
company’s crown jewel. Why do this? The simplest answer is that Solaris had 
been losing ground to an open source competitor in Linux. Losing ground was a 
symptom of  economics

http://dtrace.org/blogs/ahl/2010/08/27/the-future-of-solaris/

http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid80_gci1519243,00.html
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-06 Thread usafverteran

Unix, meaning Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, have a market and are not rapidly decreasing 
as you allude to in your comment.  This is a fallacy and more marketing 
gibberish than anything.

Linux cannot hold a candle to AIX or Solaris on proprietary hardware and RAS 
features.  AIX has had features (LPARs) for a decade that Linux cannot match 
even in their upcoming RHEL 6.  

Besides, features that are free in AIX or Solaris will cost a company hundreds 
per machine just to get the capability, such as, NIM and JumpStart, which costs 
hundreds per machine for RHEL to provision with their Satellite server.

Sun Cluster, Vertias Cluster Server, and PowerVM (used to be HACMP) are so far 
ahead of clustering in Linux it isn't even funny.

Every day I see Linux servers and clusters crash with nary an explanation as to 
the cause.  Red Hat support and Novell support are unable to give an answer, so 
the problems continue.

Linux isn't a platform I would entrust to mission critical workloads on cheap 
hardware.  For that I want to use AIX, Solaris or HP-UX.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-06 Thread Octave Orgeron

I would also argue that Solaris still has a strong presence in the enterprise 
space. There are plenty of tasks that are not suited to the relatively small 
foot-print of x86 equipment and require big-iron. Even Oracle RAC 
implementations that go the Linux route eventually find themselves with scaling 
issues due to I/O being the big bottle neck. It's great that x86 is pushing 
into 
multi-core and multi-threading heavily, but the rest of those servers are not 
well balanced. Realistically, most Solaris shops these days are handling more 
workloads, but with fewer physical servers. I've even seen large retail 
websites 
that use to be on Solaris x86 move back to Solaris SPARC and cut their server 
foot-print in half. As companies continue to grow in the IT space, the need for 
efficient and scalable servers will increase. Data center space and power are 
at 
a premium these days and it's getting harder to justify the x86 server sprawl 
that has eaten data center capacity up with the same level of insanity as 
storage as. It's pretty sad when a few HP x86 servers can max out the power and 
 
cooling capacity available in most data center cabinets. This is a  growing 
issue, seeing data centers with 1/3 or 1/2 full cabinets with  x86 gear. There 
is a growing trend for companies to look at performance, scaling, and power 
efficiencies. For many tasks, a T5220, T5240 or T5440 is an excellent choice 
for 
consolidating and keeping the TCO down. I can name dozens of major companies 
that depend on those servers for their web, app, and database tiers.

Linux isn't bad, it's just tied to an architecture that has to mature 
significantly and Linux still has major issues around backwards compatibility, 
upgrades, and consistency. Sadly, if Apple actually put more focus on their 
server line-up, I wouldn't see much point in Linux. With the decline of Novell 
and Red Hat growing its strangle hold on the Linux platform as a whole, I'm 
certain that in the next 5 years we'll all be talking about the next UNIX-like 
OS to come along and wipe it out of the data center. And by that time, Solaris 
will still be around handling the mission critical workloads. 


If Oracle plays its cards right, it should push everything onto Solaris and 
wipe 
Red Hat out completely. It wouldn't be a far stretch for Oracle to do that now 
that they have their own complete stack. Disrupting the Linux eco-system 
wouldn't be hard by pushing its client base onto Solaris and devaluing it's own 
Unbreakable Linux. Doing so would make the most sense for Oracle to cut its 
ties 
and dependency on Red Hat. Doing so would place enterprises in the pattern of 
going back to Solaris for all of their enterprise software stacks and make it 
an 
easy switch from Linux back to Solaris for everything else. This would play 
well 
into the direction of the CxO mind-share that is tired of complicated 
integration stacks that require large IT organizations to sort out. Oracle has 
the right idea of pursuing the concept of selling complete solution stacks. All 
Oracle really needs is a large cloud service for serving things up and clients 
will sign-up. Doing it yourself is fun for the IT folks and keeps them 
employed, 
but ultimately it's not the business of most companies. They'd rather sell 
their 
products and services without having to worry about IT stuff the way they do 
today.

Bottom-line, Oracle has major plans for the assets they got from Sun, which 
includes Solaris. Keep in mind that Sun Oracle is still in the top 5 server 
manufacturers in the world for a reason:) People are buying the equipment!

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



- Original Message 
From: Edward Martinez mindbende...@live.com
To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 2:04:38 PM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express

 11. Solaris has a bright future.


i don't think so. Linux has been running solaris out of the server rooms for a 
long time, that is why in 2005 SUN decided to open up solaris and give solaris 
away freely hoping that would  attract customers. from 2005 -2009 things did   
seem more promising  for solaris, then here comes Oracle reverts solaris back 
to 
that point in time when it begin to  die. UNIX(solaris,aix,etc) sales are 
rapidly decreasing, a system running linux and nehalen is as good a sparc 
system. so I think if oracle continues managing solaris with  it's current 
model 
the future will belong to linux and windows. With Linux around, I don't expect 
many customers are willing to pay the current prices for solaris contracts. 


quote:
n 2005, Sun released the source code to Solaris,  described

Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-06 Thread Octave Orgeron

Totally agree! I see more organizations struggling with Linux than they do with 
Solaris or AIX. You get what you pay for!

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



- Original Message 
From: usafverteran us...@yahoo.com
To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 3:00:37 PM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express

Unix, meaning Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, have a market and are not rapidly decreasing 
as you allude to in your comment.  This is a fallacy and more marketing 
gibberish than anything.

Linux cannot hold a candle to AIX or Solaris on proprietary hardware and RAS 
features.  AIX has had features (LPARs) for a decade that Linux cannot match 
even in their upcoming RHEL 6.  


Besides, features that are free in AIX or Solaris will cost a company hundreds 
per machine just to get the capability, such as, NIM and JumpStart, which costs 
hundreds per machine for RHEL to provision with their Satellite server.

Sun Cluster, Vertias Cluster Server, and PowerVM (used to be HACMP) are so far 
ahead of clustering in Linux it isn't even funny.

Every day I see Linux servers and clusters crash with nary an explanation as to 
the cause.  Red Hat support and Novell support are unable to give an answer, so 
the problems continue.

Linux isn't a platform I would entrust to mission critical workloads on cheap 
hardware.  For that I want to use AIX, Solaris or HP-UX.
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-09-06 Thread Fabio Kaminski

dream, dream, dream, dream ...

x86 is comming, and is taking large server share( and linux with it ), and
the only Risc is growing up, is ARM because of the mobile market boom...

Solaris will be another AIX, because is that what the company who owns it
now, want it to become.. another marginalized unix...

the game is not about technology anymore, or passion.. its about profit..
and they primary bussiness is the database brand, the one that is too tight
with Linux and x86.

Solaris will have its own share always but, forget about popularity...

and Mac for server? that thing is a frankenstein... did you see its source??
i still wonder how its still working..

checkit out this supercomputer page on wikipedia for instance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercomputer and see what im talking about..
x86 and linux growing ..and that is not only on the commodity machines like
it was in the past..

the linux makert share rise its not magic, but its Intel,hp,ibm and
Oracle(and even google) burning a lot of money on it.. these are something
that we cant turn our backs to it..(look at these team :s)

maybe illumos can make this flame going on... its a very nice OS , but it
cant turn its back to x86 market, or it will only loose..

On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Octave Orgeron unixcons...@yahoo.comwrote:

 Totally agree! I see more organizations struggling with Linux than they do
 with
 Solaris or AIX. You get what you pay for!


  *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
 Octave J. Orgeron
 Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
 Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
 E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



 - Original Message 
 From: usafverteran us...@yahoo.com
 To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
 Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 3:00:37 PM
 Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with
 Solaris
 11 Express

 Unix, meaning Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, have a market and are not rapidly
 decreasing
 as you allude to in your comment.  This is a fallacy and more marketing
 gibberish than anything.

 Linux cannot hold a candle to AIX or Solaris on proprietary hardware and
 RAS
 features.  AIX has had features (LPARs) for a decade that Linux cannot
 match
 even in their upcoming RHEL 6.


 Besides, features that are free in AIX or Solaris will cost a company
 hundreds
 per machine just to get the capability, such as, NIM and JumpStart, which
 costs
 hundreds per machine for RHEL to provision with their Satellite server.

 Sun Cluster, Vertias Cluster Server, and PowerVM (used to be HACMP) are so
 far
 ahead of clustering in Linux it isn't even funny.

 Every day I see Linux servers and clusters crash with nary an explanation
 as to
 the cause.  Red Hat support and Novell support are unable to give an
 answer, so
 the problems continue.

 Linux isn't a platform I would entrust to mission critical workloads on
 cheap
 hardware.  For that I want to use AIX, Solaris or HP-UX.
 --
 This message posted from opensolaris.org
 ___
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-29 Thread usafverteran

You said IBM with AIX 6 is copying Solaris 10 because of WPARs?

I could counter that Sun with Solaris 10 was copying AIX.  srcmstr has been 
around in AIX since its inception and Solaris 10 came out with SMF which is 
close to the same thing. 

Also, AIX has had LPARs for a decade while Sun came out with Logical Domains 
many years afterward; and LDs are close to LPARs.

Does Solaris 10 have Active Memory Expansion?  Does Solaris 10 have Workload 
Manager?  Does Solaris 10 have a management utility for Zones like IBM has for 
WPARs?  

While you're at it, complain that other operating systems are copying OpenBSD 
because they were the first to use ProPolice, W^X, etc.

AIX is not struggling to catch up with Solaris 10 but has been ahead of Solaris 
10.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-27 Thread Uros Nedic


Excellent observation Rob. Each good intentioned opinion is
worth to be heard no matter weather they come from developersor from spectators.

Uros









 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 16:44:20 -0700
 From: openba...@gmail.com
 To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
 Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with 
 Solaris 11 Express

 Uros Nedic wrote:



 You are starting a new fork? The existing forks already have names,
 chosen by the people working on them, not spectators on mailing lists.


 Like Oracle Solaris name is chosen by people working on it like you :).Or 
 Solarix Express :).

 For the distros I work on, the names were chosen by the people who decided
 to create them or who lead them, again, not by spectators on mailing lists.

 --
 -Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at oracle dot com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System


 To build a community around the world you need by in buy in from all users 
 and contributors which will include Professional Businessmen,Marketing 
 professional and engineers.To convince sponsors...branding decisions are as 
 ever are needed to be made by marketing professions in an ever competitive 
 global world..

 You are reminded the brand solaris and opensolaris were constructed by 
 marketing professionals.A learning experience for those 'Have a go Henrys' 
 out there...

 Take advice from marketing professionals.there is no better advice!
 --
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-27 Thread Uros Nedic



Excellent observation Rob. Each good intentioned opinion is
worth to be heard no matter weather they come from developersor from spectators.

Uros









 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 16:44:20 -0700
 From: openba...@gmail.com
 To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
 Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with 
 Solaris 11 Express

 Uros Nedic wrote:



 You are starting a new fork? The existing forks already have names,
 chosen by the people working on them, not spectators on mailing lists.


 Like Oracle Solaris name is chosen by people working on it like you :).Or 
 Solarix Express :).

 For the distros I work on, the names were chosen by the people who decided
 to create them or who lead them, again, not by spectators on mailing lists.

 --
 -Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at oracle dot com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System


 To build a community around the world you need by in buy in from all users 
 and contributors which will include Professional Businessmen,Marketing 
 professional and engineers.To convince sponsors...branding decisions are as 
 ever are needed to be made by marketing professions in an ever competitive 
 global world..

 You are reminded the brand solaris and opensolaris were constructed by 
 marketing professionals.A learning experience for those 'Have a go Henrys' 
 out there...

 Take advice from marketing professionals.there is no better advice!
 --
 This message posted from opensolaris.org
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-27 Thread Edward Ned Harvey

 From: opensolaris-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:opensolaris-
 discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Uros Nedic
 
 Excellent observation Rob. Each good intentioned opinion is
 worth to be heard no matter weather they come from developersor from
 spectators.

The way I remember it ... assisted by the fact that it's all written right
here ...

* Uros, you suggested a name for an OS.
* Alan said the existing forks already have names, and are named by people
who work on them, not people just talking about it idly on the mailing list.
* For no apparent reason, Uros, you ridiculed Alan because he didn't name
any OS at oracle.
* Alan said he works on distros that were already named by people who worked
on them before.  Not by people just spectating on the mailing list.

Nobody told you to keep your opinions silent.  You're not being repressed.
If anything, Alan's point encourages you to have *more* involvement with the
OS of your choice, because then you have more influence over the name of it.

Your message seems to indicate you think you are persecuted or oppressed.
You're way off base.  I suggest strengthening your emotional armor, so you
don't feel personally attacked when people are just talking about opinions
that happen to be different from yours.

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-26 Thread Rob Jones

Uros Nedic wrote:



 You are starting a new fork? The existing forks already have names,
 chosen by the people working on them, not spectators on mailing lists.


 Like Oracle Solaris name is chosen by people working on it like you :).Or 
 Solarix Express :).

For the distros I work on, the names were chosen by the people who decided
to create them or who lead them, again, not by spectators on mailing lists.

-- 
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at oracle dot com
Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System


To build a community around the world you need by in buy in from all users and 
contributors which will include Professional Businessmen,Marketing professional 
and engineers.To convince sponsors...branding decisions are as ever are needed 
to be made by marketing professions in an ever competitive global world..

You are reminded the brand solaris and opensolaris were constructed by 
marketing professionals.A learning experience for those 'Have a go Henrys' out 
there...

Take advice from marketing professionals.there is no better advice!
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-24 Thread Alan Coopersmith

Uros Nedic wrote:
 
 
 
 You are starting a new fork? The existing forks already have names,
 chosen by the people working on them, not spectators on mailing lists.

 
 Like Oracle Solaris name is chosen by people working on it like you :).Or 
 Solarix Express :).

For the distros I work on, the names were chosen by the people who decided
to create them or who lead them, again, not by spectators on mailing lists.

-- 
-Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-23 Thread Peter Jones

There is a need to start an independent forum before the decision is made to 
kill this forum...any ideas or sponsors? Do we carry ads to pay for it?

Anyone know anyone at Adobe?
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-23 Thread Edward Martinez

 There is a need to start an independent forum before
 the decision is made to kill this forum...any ideas
 or sponsors? Do we carry ads to pay for it?
 
 Anyone know anyone at Adobe?Google non profit
 services?

seems like somebody already started one but don't know if it is still active

http://www.freelists.org/list/osol-discuss
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-23 Thread Cia Watson


On 08/23/10 11:06 AM, Edward Martinez wrote:

There is a need to start an independent forum before
the decision is made to kill this forum...any ideas
or sponsors? Do we carry ads to pay for it?

Anyone know anyone at Adobe?Google non profit
services?
 

seems like somebody already started one but don't know if it is still active

http://www.freelists.org/list/osol-discuss
   
I believe I joined that list, haven't seen any traffic from it. And I'm 
still using osol snv_134 until it's replacement (Oracle 11 express) 
comes along...
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-22 Thread Octave Orgeron

Yeah as much as Linux folks believe Red Hat is their friend and giving 
everything away for free, you are sadly mistaken. Red Hat has always been about 
making money from Linux, make no mistake about it. And seeing how Novell is 
having issues, it's very likely that Red Hat will  continue to be the dominant 
Linux distro. While I'm saddened and extremely upset at how things have turned 
out for the OpenSolaris community, I do wonder how much the nightly updates 
have 
helped the likes of AIX and Linux over the past few years. And maybe there is 
more to that comment in the memo that was leaked. 


The good news is that the OpenSolaris code is out there and there are plenty of 
distros popping up. This is a good thing and forces the community to carry the 
torch and bring OpenSolaris to wider audiences. This is very much how Linux 
started, minus the commercial backing. It started out from bits and pieces that 
formed the SLS distro which turned into Slackware and the rest is history. The 
further OpenSolaris spreads and is molded to fit the specific needs of users 
(desktops, servers, appliances, storage back-ends, switches, etc.), the better. 
And I'm sure that Oracle will get the Solaris 11 Express program moving soon 
and 
will probably make some money. It'll definitely help generate interest in 
Solaris 11, the same way that the betas for Solaris 10 did for many of Sun's 
largest customers. 


I don't agree with the OpenSolaris distribution being killed off. I personally 
believe that Sun should have taken a cut of it last year and released Solaris 
11. It's more stable than Solaris 10 was when it was released. The thing that 
always bugged me about the OpenSolaris distribution is that it wasn't pieced 
together or controlled by the community. We should have been at the driving 
wheel of that distribution. Instead, it went from being an in-house project to 
hijacking our efforts and pushing us as a community out of the way. Basically 
saying, here is what you're going to use and we don't care if you like the way 
we do it or not. And what did we end up with? A very desktop centric cut of the 
ON world and none of the integration we expect out of a Solaris build (look at 
the mess AI is for example over Jumpstart).

Now I can understand Oracle's concerns about having the latest and greatest out 
in the open for the competition to exploit and copy. I've seen AIX 6 struggle 
to 
reinvent itself to catch up to Solaris 10, and it still has a way to go.. but 
they have WPARs(think zones), their own trusted extensions, and even their own 
probevue (think dtrace). So the writing is on the wall. IBM is Oracle's enemy 
in 
what remains of the UNIX wars.. it's just Oracle Solaris, IBM AIX, and HP 
HP-UX. 
Oracle is trying to protect it's IP and secret sauce from being hijacked ahead 
of commercial releases. It makes good business sense and that's what Oracle is 
good at. Of course, this sucks for the rest of us who want the latest and 
greatest features in our OpenSolaris boxes and want it now!

It's been a fun ride and now things will slow down considerably here on the 
OpenSolaris.org site. It's time for the OpenSolaris based distros to shine and 
do the things that Sun and Oracle couldn't do, empower the developers, users, 
sysadmins, enthusiasts, etc. to make a better OS.



 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



- Original Message 
From: Shawn Walker shawn.wal...@oracle.com
To: carlopmart carlopm...@gmail.com
Cc: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 12:04:58 PM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 
11 Express

On 08/20/10 09:41 AM, carlopmart wrote:
 Shawn Walker wrote:
 On 08/20/10 03:26 AM, Gabriele Bulfon wrote:
 ...
 I can't see any other OS (nor M$ nor OSX) that to be licensed
 requires annual support subscription...when you buy Wins or Macs, you
 pay once for your license, that's all (unless you really want or need
 support from M$ or Apple).

 RedHat enterprise Linux requires a subscription, and you lose the
 right to use it if you stop the subscription.


 That's not correct. You lose only the support, but you can use it on
 several servers as you want and it is legal. Only lose the support (and
 the right to download updates).

See also section 5:

  https://www.redhat.com/licenses/us.html

-Shawn
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-22 Thread Uros Nedic


Without any irony, reading all smart ideas here I felt free to
add few of them that might be useful.

1. Lets turn the name of our fork to OS-UX. Then, we wouldleave some trace of 
OpenSolaris project in the name of ourfuture work, and at the same time it 
would be shorten whichknows to be very useful in UNIX world.

2. I heard that Larry Elison is willing to give some of his
fortune. Maybe we could ask him to sponsor our future work?
TestFarm Servers, web site maintainters, etc. We could do it
on a voluntary basis but we still need some infrastructure
that has to be paid, and some marketing artwork, thatalso needs some money.

Regards,Uros




 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:37:36 -0700
 From: unixcons...@yahoo.com
 To: shawn.wal...@oracle.com; carlopm...@gmail.com
 CC: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
 Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with 
 Solaris 11 Express

  
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-22 Thread Edward Ned Harvey

 From: opensolaris-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:opensolaris-
 discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Uros Nedic
 
 1. Lets turn the name of our fork to OS-UX. Then, we wouldleave some

LOL ...  :-)

But I'm not sure you were kidding.  Are you sure you want to use a product
called O-SUX?  ;-)

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-22 Thread Alan Coopersmith

Uros Nedic wrote:
 Without any irony, reading all smart ideas here I felt free to
 add few of them that might be useful.
 
 1. Lets turn the name of our fork to OS-UX.

You are starting a new fork?   The existing forks already have names,
chosen by the people working on them, not spectators on mailing lists.

-- 
-Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-22 Thread Uros Nedic





 You are starting a new fork? The existing forks already have names,
 chosen by the people working on them, not spectators on mailing lists.


Like Oracle Solaris name is chosen by people working on it like you :).Or 
Solarix Express :).


 --
 -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System

  
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-22 Thread Edward Ned Harvey

 From: opensolaris-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:opensolaris-
 discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Uros Nedic
 
 Like Oracle Solaris name is chosen by people working on it like you
 :).Or Solarix Express :).

What's your point?

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-20 Thread Gabriele Bulfon

The bad side I see, is that we won't be able to build appliances based on 
Solaris 11 (nor Solaris 11 Express).
AFAIK, each appliance I would sell, would require me to register the OS by 
paying the Support Subscription, and this would be each and every year...
I can't see any other OS (nor M$ nor OSX) that to be licensed requires annual 
support subscription...when you buy Wins or Macs, you pay once for your 
license, that's all (unless you really want or need support from M$ or Apple).
Also, who knows what hardware will be still in the HCL for Solaris11?? Will it 
be just Sun, Dell, HP and Fujitsu? What if I want to run it on Supermicro???

I hope guys at IlluminOS are coming out with distros very fast...who can wait 
another year to decide the paths to go?
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-20 Thread Shawn Walker


On 08/20/10 03:26 AM, Gabriele Bulfon wrote:
...

I can't see any other OS (nor M$ nor OSX) that to be licensed requires annual 
support subscription...when you buy Wins or Macs, you pay once for your 
license, that's all (unless you really want or need support from M$ or Apple).


RedHat enterprise Linux requires a subscription, and you lose the right 
to use it if you stop the subscription.


There are others as well.

-Shawn
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-20 Thread carlopmart


Shawn Walker wrote:

On 08/20/10 03:26 AM, Gabriele Bulfon wrote:
...
I can't see any other OS (nor M$ nor OSX) that to be licensed requires 
annual support subscription...when you buy Wins or Macs, you pay once 
for your license, that's all (unless you really want or need support 
from M$ or Apple).


RedHat enterprise Linux requires a subscription, and you lose the right 
to use it if you stop the subscription.




That's not correct. You lose only the support, but you can use it on several servers 
as you want and it is legal. Only lose the support (and the right to download updates).


Thanks.

--
CL Martinez
carlopmart {at} gmail {d0t} com
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-20 Thread Shawn Walker


On 08/20/10 09:41 AM, carlopmart wrote:

Shawn Walker wrote:

On 08/20/10 03:26 AM, Gabriele Bulfon wrote:
...

I can't see any other OS (nor M$ nor OSX) that to be licensed
requires annual support subscription...when you buy Wins or Macs, you
pay once for your license, that's all (unless you really want or need
support from M$ or Apple).


RedHat enterprise Linux requires a subscription, and you lose the
right to use it if you stop the subscription.



That's not correct. You lose only the support, but you can use it on
several servers as you want and it is legal. Only lose the support (and
the right to download updates).


No, it is correct.  I was previously a RedHat customer, and they made it 
very clear to me that the right to continue to use the distribution on 
the system was void once the subscription expired.


Whether that has changed since I was a customer, I couldn't tell you.

-Shawn
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-20 Thread Shawn Walker


On 08/20/10 09:41 AM, carlopmart wrote:

Shawn Walker wrote:

On 08/20/10 03:26 AM, Gabriele Bulfon wrote:
...

I can't see any other OS (nor M$ nor OSX) that to be licensed
requires annual support subscription...when you buy Wins or Macs, you
pay once for your license, that's all (unless you really want or need
support from M$ or Apple).


RedHat enterprise Linux requires a subscription, and you lose the
right to use it if you stop the subscription.



That's not correct. You lose only the support, but you can use it on
several servers as you want and it is legal. Only lose the support (and
the right to download updates).


See also section 5:

  https://www.redhat.com/licenses/us.html

-Shawn
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread Richard L. Hamilton

 Let me guess what the Solaris 11 Express will be:
 
 The demo version of commercial Solaris 11.
 Utilizing only limited amount of RAM, disk space, and
 limited number of CPU cores.

I've never heard of any version of Solaris, commercial or otherwise,
that was purposely crippled to use only limited RAM, disk space,
and CPU cores.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express


Let me guess what the Solaris 11 Express will be:

The demo version of commercial Solaris 11.
Utilizing only limited amount of RAM, disk space, and limited number of CPU 
cores.

Name one downloadable Oracle product which is limited in some way.
(Other than the license)

Casper

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express


 Let me guess what the Solaris 11 Express will be:
 
 The demo version of commercial Solaris 11.
 Utilizing only limited amount of RAM, disk space, and
 limited number of CPU cores.

I've never heard of any version of Solaris, commercial or otherwise,
that was purposely crippled to use only limited RAM, disk space,
and CPU cores.


Nexenta?  Or is that using the honor system, again?

Casper

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread Orvar Korvar

Actually, Oracle is opening up Solaris 11. Solaris 10 was closed source. This 
is important and no one complained on S10 being closed? 

When/if Oracle incorporates fixes from Illumos, those fixes will be available 
later, when Oracle releases the binary distro and the source code.

This does not disturb me. This announcement may be bad for the OpenSolaris 
distro, but Solaris 11 Express distro is just a few months away. This 
announcement is great for Solaris. 

What disturbs me, is the brain drain. Bryan Cantrill and Adam Leventhal has 
left now - they will both help out with Illumos I think. I hope Oracle treats 
the talented engineers that are left, better.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread Orvar Korvar

And from today, also Adam Leventhal.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

I've never heard of any version of Solaris, commercial or otherwise,
that was purposely crippled to use only limited RAM, disk space,
and CPU cores.

That's because Solaris was under Sun, not under Oracle.

Dmitry.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread Joerg Schilling

Dmitry G. Kozhinov d...@desktopfay.com wrote:

 I've never heard of any version of Solaris, commercial or otherwise,
 that was purposely crippled to use only limited RAM, disk space,
 and CPU cores.

 That's because Solaris was under Sun, not under Oracle.

In 1990 Sun did tell costomers that they have been planning to bundle the OS 
license to the hostid of a machine. Fortunately, Sun did listen to their 
customers and did not make it reality.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
   j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni)  
   joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: 
http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

Name one downloadable Oracle product which is limited in some way.
(Other than the license)

Here it is: Oracle Database 10g Express Edition.

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/database/express-edition/overview/index.html

Excerpt from the page above:
XE will store up to 4GB of user data, use up to 1GB of memory, and use one CPU 
on the host machine.

Note the word Express in the product name.

Dmitry.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread usafverteran

What's your point?  IBM has had DB2 Express for quite some time.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express


Dmitry G. Kozhinov d...@desktopfay.com wrote:

 I've never heard of any version of Solaris, commercial or otherwis=
e,
 that was purposely crippled to use only limited RAM, disk space,
 and CPU cores.

 That's because Solaris was under Sun, not under Oracle.

In 1990 Sun did tell costomers that they have been planning to bundle the OS
license to the hostid of a machine. Fortunately, Sun did listen to their
customers and did not make it reality.


And why did the OP expect that Oracle will behave differently:

Please note that Oracle doesn't use software keys. You can just install
the software and use it. It is up to you and your consciences to license the
software before using it. 

(from the orafaq website; of course, it's not from the horse's mount)


Casper

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

What's your point? IBM has had DB2 Express for quite some time.

Every company has their own product naming guidelines. Express from IBM means 
other thing than Express from Oracle.

Dmitry.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread usafverteran

What are you talking about?

XE will store up to 4GB of user data, use up to 1GB of memory, and use one CPU 
on the host machine.

DB2 Express-C supports up to 2 cores (1 cpu), 2GB memory, no database size 
limit, no connection limits, no user limits, 32- or 64-bit.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

What are you talking about?

I am talking about *Oracle* product, which is limited in memory usage, disk 
space usage, and CPU usage, and has word Express in the product name.

Dmitry.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread Paul Gress


On 08/19/10 10:09 AM, usafverteran wrote:

What's your point?  IBM has had DB2 Express for quite some time.
   


The point was the statement Name one downloadable Oracle product which 
is limited in some way. (Other than the license).


Dmitry simply found one example.


Paul

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread Ray Van Dolson

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 07:34:06AM -0700, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
 What are you talking about?
 
 I am talking about *Oracle* product, which is limited in memory
 usage, disk space usage, and CPU usage, and has word Express in the
 product name.
 
 Dmitry.

Can't you use the full version of Oracle freely as well (though not for
production use)?

Ray
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express



On 08/19/10 10:09 AM, usafverteran wrote:
 What's your point?  IBM has had DB2 Express for quite some time.


The point was the statement Name one downloadable Oracle product which 
is limited in some way. (Other than the license).

Dmitry simply found one example.

He was right; it's clearly hard coded into the database.

Casper

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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread usafverteran

I know that is what you're talking about, but I specifically meant, what you 
mean by express mean something different between IBM and Oracle, because both 
of their database express products have limits.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

2010-08-19 Thread Tamer Embaby


 Some of the replies to J.S.:

Thank God this is an April Fool :-) Otherwise what would this world do 
without

OpenSource Software?

Cannot imagine a day without Sun's open/free tools and technologies.
Keep it alive and kicking.

It's been always and still disappointing to me since the first time I 
read about

Oracle taking over Sun!  I knew it was the end of innovation.  And started
to look for other technologies and vendors (Linux, Dell, IBM, etc.), since
I was sure that things will not be the same with Oracle and will most likely
great inventions and work done by Sun will start being demolished piece
by piece.

Indeed we were betrayed!

Tamer

On 8/16/2010 3:34 PM, Gabriele Bulfon wrote:

Today, I remembered about the 2008 1st April Fool Mr. Schwartz posted on his 
blog...I remember my smile when reading it...
It's still there, but 2 years later, the same words sound so different:

http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/a_new_strategy

also read the comments...

I start to feel betrayed by Mr. Schwartz  Mr. McNealy...


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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express

Can't you use the full version of Oracle freely as well (though not for
production use)?

Ok, maybe I can. Exactly the same way as I can use Solaris 10. My initial 
thought  was different - I am trying to guess what Solaris 11 Express 
(successor of OpenSolaris) would be. I afraid that it may be functionally 
limited - compared to full Solaris 11.

Dmitry.
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Re: [osol-discuss] OpenSolaris cancelled, to be replaced with Solaris 11 Express