Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[David Brodbeck]

John Summerfield wrote:
> On Wednesday 11 April 2007 18:32, Damon Register wrote:
>   
>> Ok, when Xwindows is not running, nedit might not be of any value
>> (although I thought I remember there being a curses version) but then
>> there is joe which is a lot nicer IMHO than vi.
>> 
>
>
> If there is any possibiltiy that you will be called on to maintain any *x 
> system at all, you can bet a lot of them do not have nedit, joe, pico, jed, 
> emacs or many of the others.
>   

I think to a certain degree you're arguing cross purposes.  It depends
on what your goals are in using Linux.  Not every Linux user is using
Linux because they want to learn system administration.

- Does a home user who mostly regards their Linux system as an appliance
need to learn vi?  No, absolutely not.

- Does someone who aspires to work as a system administrator, either in
an amateur or professional capacity, need to learn vi?  I'd say yes.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[John Summerfield]

On Wednesday 11 April 2007 18:32, Damon Register wrote:
> Ok, when Xwindows is not running, nedit might not be of any value
> (although I thought I remember there being a curses version) but then
> there is joe which is a lot nicer IMHO than vi.


If there is any possibiltiy that you will be called on to maintain any *x 
system at all, you can bet a lot of them do not have nedit, joe, pico, jed, 
emacs or many of the others.

You _can_ expect to find vi, ed and sed. vi is light-weight and designed to be 
used over slow links. ed is pretty similar, but lacks the visual element. sed 
is strictly batch-oriented.

_I_ regularly do system maintenance by dialup, and no GUI is especially useful 
at the other end of a modem.

-- 
Cheers

John Summerfield
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[jfweber]

On Wed April 11 2007 6:32 am, Damon Register scratched these words onto 
a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:
> M Harris wrote:
> > telling me about ( joe ) ... I am always willing to learn new
> > stuff... and this little joe editor might do the trick for some of
> > my ( shall I say )
>
> Joe is my favorite if for no other reason than I can get the help on
> the top of the screen.

>
> it must have been you about whom this was written.
> http://www.nedit.org/features.php?PHPSESSID=5584b573f8054dcccdc6f4e69
>4cf0ac2 "People already exposed to modern GUIs when introduced to UNIX
> used to be (and still are) told to use vi or EMACS.

I'm not sure what the problem w/ EMACS is... It will function as a plain 
text editor, and was available on most OSes.

 However, If you are looking for a "notepad" substitute, try Kedit , I 
haven't tried the other variations ( Joe, Nedit etc. )They are all 
attempts at recreating a *familiar* look'n'feel in various ways.. There 
are a lots of editors, from  plain to insane ,available. Please,feel 
free to sample them all.. no cost unless you don't have the boxed set 
or a fat pipe .. downloading some of them could take a while if you are 
just using a modem. Nothing is small and simple any more. 

'Relax,  is linux.'   What you dislike , you probably can change ; if 
not there is bound to be at least one program that could be customized 
to operate as you wish it to do. 

 At the risk of sounding pollyanna-ish, no one will sue you for tossing 
out whatever program you dislike. Just wander thru places like packman, 
kde-apps.org , kde-files.org and countless others  and see what you can 
find.

' relax is Linux ' ,  better even,  is opensuse linux , jump in the 
water is fine.

;)

-- 
j
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[G.T.Smith]

David Brodbeck wrote:
> G.T.Smith wrote:
>   
>> Actually the first thing I do is try to get pico working. Nice little
>> very basic editor, and I would agree with Doug and go a litlle further
>> and say IMHO vi is interesting for those with a masochistic
>> disposition:-)
>> 
>
> I don't like pico because there's no way to jump to the beginning or end
> of the file.  This may have been OK for editing email, which was its
> original purpose, but it's frustrating when you're working with
> configuration files.
>   
Actually, I tend to use pico when I am dealing with modest text files
(e.g. fstab mtab ) where emacs would be overkill, for working with long
scripts, source files  and multiple files I would use other more
appropriate tools (i.e. emacs or eclipse). It is a case of 'horses for
couses' .  In disentangling a mauled setup pico gives just the
functionality required without the intellectual mugging that vi delivers.
begin:vcard
fn:Graham T. Smith
n:Smith;Graham T.
adr:Barton upon Humber;;90 Bowmandale;;North Lincs.;DN18 5EA;UK
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel;cell:07876793607
version:2.1
end:vcard

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Damon Register]

M Harris wrote:
telling me about ( joe ) ... I am always willing to learn new stuff... and 
this little joe editor might do the trick for some of my ( shall I say ) 

Joe is my favorite if for no other reason than I can get the help on
the top of the screen.

modal brain-dead friends...  I mean they are brain-dead in terms of being 
able to navigate a modal editor ( like vi ).

I guess I would rather be brain dead.

universal enough for the unix playing field.  VI is everywhere... Solaris, 

so is the flu

AIX, HP UX, name it... its there...   every unix geek or unix-like geek 
wannabee *must* learn vi, period, end of story... I'm sorry you're just wrong 
about this...   there...  whew... I told you --so there.  :-P

it must have been you about whom this was written.
http://www.nedit.org/features.php?PHPSESSID=5584b573f8054dcccdc6f4e694cf0ac2
"People already exposed to modern GUIs when introduced to UNIX used to 
be (and still are) told to use vi or EMACS. If you complained that any 
product that requires you to invest hours of training just to edit text 
is a stinking abomination from the bottommost pits of hell and you can't 
even figure out how to save your document without a manual, you were 
told that you were wrong, you just had to hit ctrl+alt+meta+escape + the 
phase of the moon and write a small lisp routine without visual 
feedback, and that this is in fact a much more powerful and more 
efficient way to do things, and that GUI editors are baby's toys (since 
most of the ones on UNIX were)."


NEdit was for those who never capitulated to this attitude, and insisted 
on a proper gui-based editor that works the way they were used to on 
other systems, with a focus on ease of use and familiarity for new 
users, so you could be productive right away, without sacrificing power."


Ok, when Xwindows is not running, nedit might not be of any value
(although I thought I remember there being a curses version) but then
there is joe which is a lot nicer IMHO than vi.

Damon Register

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[David Brodbeck]

John Andersen wrote:
>> I don't like pico because there's no way to jump to the beginning or end
>> of the file.  This may have been OK for editing email, which was its
>> original purpose, but it's frustrating when you're working with
>> configuration files.
>> 
>
> Odd, I've found page up / page down fast enough for my use.
>   

It works, it's just less than ideal if you're working with a file that's
hundreds of lines long.  Especially if you happen to be on a
low-bandwidth connection, where waiting for the screen to redraw takes a
noticeable amount of time.
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[John Andersen]

On Tuesday 10 April 2007, David Brodbeck wrote:
> G.T.Smith wrote:
> > Actually the first thing I do is try to get pico working. Nice little
> > very basic editor, and I would agree with Doug and go a litlle further
> > and say IMHO vi is interesting for those with a masochistic
> > disposition:-)
>
> I don't like pico because there's no way to jump to the beginning or end
> of the file.  This may have been OK for editing email, which was its
> original purpose, but it's frustrating when you're working with
> configuration files.

Odd, I've found page up / page down fast enough for my use.


-- 
_
John Andersen


pgpQLWY80GoEH.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[David Brodbeck]

G.T.Smith wrote:
> Actually the first thing I do is try to get pico working. Nice little
> very basic editor, and I would agree with Doug and go a litlle further
> and say IMHO vi is interesting for those with a masochistic
> disposition:-)

I don't like pico because there's no way to jump to the beginning or end
of the file.  This may have been OK for editing email, which was its
original purpose, but it's frustrating when you're working with
configuration files.
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Patrick Shanahan]

* Doug McGarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [04-10-07 20:18]:
 [...]
> Yes, it was, but when I had learned it, I turned off that helper so as
> to have a fuller page to write on.  I wish the modern graphic editors
> had the ^b function to reformat the text, so as to make the text fit
> the page, with margins and line feeds fixed, etc.  Most seem not to
> have that available.

jed/xjed will, but you have to roll your own, no rpm's for suse.

  http://www.jedsoft.org/jed/

I use it as my editor for email in mutt.  Auto reformat quoted text,


-- 
Patrick ShanahanRegistered Linux User #207535
http://wahoo.no-ip.org@ http://counter.li.org
HOG # US1244711 Photo Album:  http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Doug McGarrett]

On Tuesday 10 April 2007 02:51, jdd wrote:
> Doug McGarrett wrote:
> > You're right, Pat.  WordStar debuted on cpm, and it was a while to get
> > to know the key-strokes to move around and modify things,
>
> nope: it was written on the top of the screen :-)
>
> jdd
>
>
> --
> http://www.dodin.net
> Lucien Dodin, inventeur
> http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml

Yes, it was, but when I had learned it, I turned off that helper so as to
have a fuller page to write on.  I wish the modern graphic editors had 
the ^b function to reformat the text, so as to make the text fit the 
page, with margins and line feeds fixed, etc.  Most seem not to have that 
available.

--doug
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Silviu Marin-Caea]

On Tuesday 10 April 2007 12:03:13 am M Harris wrote:
> On Monday 09 April 2007 16:31, Doug McGarrett wrote:
> > If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then use
> > something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe.  There's a whole text-book
> > on VI, and this is not a user-friendly thing, and neither is EMACS, altho
> > the old Unix hands will tell you it's the only way.  It's not.  If you
> > never expect to use a real Unix system, fageddaboudit!
> >
> > (I've probably started a flame war here, but if you investigate for
> > yourself, you'll find that I'm right.)
> >
> > --doug
>
>   Well... I'm just incensed here...   :-P
>
>   ... first off, if you're new to unix, the very first thing you *must*
> learn is vi, period, end of story.

No, the first thing a Linux *newbie* needs to learn is to get out of vi in 
case he becomes trapped.  And that would be: [Esc]:q!

For editing stuff as root from the user desktop: [Alt+F2] kdesu kate

I hate it when people creep out newbies with vi and such.  Maybe it will come 
down to those if necessity ever arises, but not at the beginning, certainly 
not as a newbie.

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Silviu Marin-Caea]

On Monday 09 April 2007 08:26:27 am dwain wrote:
> On Monday 09 April 2007 00:00, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:
> > All a part of the learning process.  Imagine, you can actually even be
> > an active participant, and can effect changes.
>
> I think I need to get a bit more opensuse under my belt and know a bit more
> about the OS before I can effectively be an active participant.
>
> How do I get to the man pages again?

I would recommend using the KDE Help Center.  It's the starting point for all 
documentation, man, info, guides, what-have-you.  All that in a nice, 
readable graphical display.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-04-09 at 16:03 -0500, M Harris wrote:

> On Monday 09 April 2007 16:31, Doug McGarrett wrote:
> > If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then use
> > something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe.  

Agreed. :-)

> > (I've probably started a flame war here, but if you investigate for
> > yourself, you'll find that I'm right.)
> >
>   Well... I'm just incensed here...   :-P
> 
>   ... first off, if you're new to unix, the very first thing you *must* 
> learn 
> is vi, period, end of story. 

But this is not unix, but linux. And not "plain" linux, but openSuSE linux 
:-p so we do have joe besides vi right from the start, even from the 
rescue CD - so that purists can grumble in their marble towers :-P


It doesn't hurt to know a bit of vi - specially the keystrokes needed to 
exit as fast as from a running fire! 

:-P

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGG6WNtTMYHG2NR9URAjf+AJ0Ts94ZBCJjMXs+DUnICuEfyh9VOACffUfQ
Mjypr3NO09FJb1K7UYJN1ME=
=bLtV
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-04-09 at 20:15 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

>  [...]
> > The default keybindings are based loosely on "WordStar", which had a
> > lot of clones that used the same commands.
> 
> which, iirc, originated on cp/m.  After learning Wordstar keystrokes
> and then dos with qedit from semware, later renamed, it's difficult to
> adapt to another editor:^)

Right.

WordStar was designed for touch typists, that's why its "human-api" has 
been so successful.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGG6PetTMYHG2NR9URAg7pAJ9CK94FrD6yDpAFZfVZUdHkq3BImgCeOen9
F3vw4jMK1RjqToART80p8nc=
=ehA8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[James Knott]

Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> * David Brodbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [04-09-07 18:06]:
>  [...]
>   
>> The default keybindings are based loosely on "WordStar", which had a
>> lot of clones that used the same commands.
>> 
>
> which, iirc, originated on cp/m.  After learning Wordstar keystrokes
> and then dos with qedit from semware, later renamed, it's difficult to
> adapt to another editor:^)
>
>   
I used to use Wordstar 2000 on DOS.  Once you learned the keystrokes, it
was quite nice to use.


-- 
Use OpenOffice.org 
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[jpff]

I loved SOS until much later I discovered emacs.  Trouble is that SOS
depended on the 5 7-bit bytes in a word with 1 bit left over.  Not
many machines like that now (and I view that as a loss too).

Mind you I was quiet good with E3 and edit way way back.

==John ffitch
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[G.T.Smith]

M Harris wrote:
> On Monday 09 April 2007 16:31, Doug McGarrett wrote:
>   
>> If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then use
>> something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe.  There's a whole text-book on
>> VI, and this is not a user-friendly thing, and neither is EMACS, altho the
>> old Unix hands will tell you it's the only way.  It's not.  If you never
>> expect to use a real Unix system, fageddaboudit!
>>
>> (I've probably started a flame war here, but if you investigate for
>> yourself, you'll find that I'm right.)
>>
>> --doug
>> 
>   Well... I'm just incensed here...   :-P
>
>   ... first off, if you're new to unix, the very first thing you *must* 
> learn 
> is vi, period, end of story. So, just pull out the info or man pages and get 
> cracking... you *will* need it before you grow up so just bite the bullet and 
> learn it... ok?... ok.
>
>   Second, emacs sux.
>
>   Third, well... go back to my first point.
>
>
>
>
>   
Actually the first thing I do is try to get pico working. Nice little
very basic editor, and I would agree with Doug and go a litlle further
and say IMHO vi is interesting for those with a masochistic
disposition:-) I was gobsmacked when heard some lunatic had ported it to
M$ You need enough vi to make use of sed and that's about it I would
agree that some vi knowledge is required if only to remind you there has
got to be something better.

For cutting code emacs is a formidable tool, but it is not easy to learn
to use. However it is worth learning at least the basics. The main
problem with emacs is the range of functionality (e-Mail client,
computer language parser, Word processor, CVS manager, script
interpretor ). A secondary issue is the emacs buffer model does take a
liitle getting used to. About the only thing you cannot do with it is
make the toast :-)

As old DEC hand I say bring back SOS ;-)

begin:vcard
fn:Graham T. Smith
n:Smith;Graham T.
adr:Barton upon Humber;;90 Bowmandale;;North Lincs.;DN18 5EA;UK
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel;cell:07876793607
version:2.1
end:vcard

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Stephan Binner]

On Monday, 9. April 2007 04:44:08 dwain wrote:

> How long is a distribution (i.e. 10.2) supported with patches and updates

http://en.opensuse.org/SUSE_Linux_Lifetime

Bye,
   Steve
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[jpff]

OK, someone had to join on from the backwoods.
If the system is in a bad way the /bib/ed is the only editor to use.
If the system is running then emacs, suitable customised for my
keystrokes

And while we are at it, no KDE and no Gnome.
==John ffitch
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[jdd]

M Harris wrote:


universal enough for the unix playing field.  VI is everywhere...


yes and no.

of course, you are right, but in fact VI don't even exists... There 
are no such thing as "Original VI"


on Linux, most used VI is _vim_, but Gentoo starts with a much more 
simple one. even busybox have it's one (that mimics emacs, joe...)


jdd

--
http://www.dodin.net
Lucien Dodin, inventeur
http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[jdd]

Doug McGarrett wrote:


You're right, Pat.  WordStar debuted on cpm, and it was a while to get
to know the key-strokes to move around and modify things,


nope: it was written on the top of the screen :-)

jdd


--
http://www.dodin.net
Lucien Dodin, inventeur
http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[jdd]

M Harris wrote:

On Monday 09 April 2007 17:07, David Brodbeck wrote:

With all seriousness, sometimes when you're setting up a new system, or
recovering from some sort of disaster, vi is all you've got.  So it's
worthwhile to at least learn the basics.

Yes ...

	... and the main thing (seriously) to remember is that there really are only 
a very few *basics* to vi.


and better, use "gvim" under any GUI. In day to day use it's worth...

jdd


--
http://www.dodin.net
Lucien Dodin, inventeur
http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[David Brodbeck]

Bob S wrote:
> Besides Vi there is also joe. (since about 10.0 I think)
>   

And some distributions ship with 'nano'.  But if you're setting up an
OpenBSD or Solaris system from scratch, you'll likely find yourself with
just 'vi' to play with.  Same with some rescue floppies.
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[M Harris]

On Monday 09 April 2007 22:14, Bob S wrote:
> >   Yes ...
>
>               No
>
> Besides Vi there is also joe. (since about 10.0 I think)
Well, uh, NO.

...  heh heh...  but before I make my point I do sincerely thank you 
for 
telling me about ( joe ) ... I am always willing to learn new stuff... and 
this little joe editor might do the trick for some of my ( shall I say ) 
modal brain-dead friends...  I mean they are brain-dead in terms of being 
able to navigate a modal editor ( like vi ).

... but alas ( uff dah ) I digress... and my main point is that ( joe ) 
isn't 
universal enough for the unix playing field.  VI is everywhere... Solaris, 
AIX, HP UX, name it... its there...   every unix geek or unix-like geek 
wannabee *must* learn vi, period, end of story... I'm sorry you're just wrong 
about this...   there...  whew... I told you --so there.  :-P



-- 
Kind regards,

M Harris <><
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Bob S]

On Monday 09 April 2007 17:39, M Harris wrote:
> On Monday 09 April 2007 17:07, David Brodbeck wrote:
> > With all seriousness, sometimes when you're setting up a new system, or
> > recovering from some sort of disaster, vi is all you've got.  So it's
> > worthwhile to at least learn the basics.
>
>   Yes ...
>
  No

Besides Vi there is also joe. (since about 10.0 I think)

Bob S.
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Doug McGarrett]

On Monday 09 April 2007 20:15, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> * David Brodbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [04-09-07 18:06]:
>  [...]
>
> > The default keybindings are based loosely on "WordStar", which had a
> > lot of clones that used the same commands.
>
> which, iirc, originated on cp/m.  After learning Wordstar keystrokes
> and then dos with qedit from semware, later renamed, it's difficult to
> adapt to another editor:^)
>
> --
> Patrick ShanahanRegistered Linux User #207535
> http://wahoo.no-ip.org@ http://counter.li.org
> HOG # US1244711 Photo Album:  http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
> OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/

You're right, Pat.  WordStar debuted on cpm, and it was a while to get
to know the key-strokes to move around and modify things, but I bet I
could go back and use them in about 15 minutes.  The dos version of
MS Word drove me crazy, and I never used it, and still have not, but
WordPerfect in Windows works very nicely.  I wish OO was a little more
like that and less like Word, but it is useable.  Yes, I had the old Wine-
based WP, but it was klugey.

--doug
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Patrick Shanahan]

* David Brodbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [04-09-07 18:06]:
 [...]
> The default keybindings are based loosely on "WordStar", which had a
> lot of clones that used the same commands.

which, iirc, originated on cp/m.  After learning Wordstar keystrokes
and then dos with qedit from semware, later renamed, it's difficult to
adapt to another editor:^)

-- 
Patrick ShanahanRegistered Linux User #207535
http://wahoo.no-ip.org@ http://counter.li.org
HOG # US1244711 Photo Album:  http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[M Harris]

On Monday 09 April 2007 17:07, David Brodbeck wrote:
> With all seriousness, sometimes when you're setting up a new system, or
> recovering from some sort of disaster, vi is all you've got.  So it's
> worthwhile to at least learn the basics.  
Yes ...

... and the main thing (seriously) to remember is that there really are 
only 
a very few *basics* to vi. Yes, whole text books have been written about the 
tool... but there really are only about six mode keystrokes (i a o d y p) 
that need to be memorized, and there are really only about two commands (x q) 
that must be memorized, and then there are the cursor movement keys 
( h,j,k,l ) the search key (/) and the mode switch key (ESC) and that's all 
there is to it... sortof... 

Oh yeah, if you're a real man you'll also know how to do search and 
replace 
incorporating regular expressions 'n such... but that's another story... and 
not to scare anybody away. 


-- 
Kind regards,

M Harris <><
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Darryl Gregorash]

On 2007-04-09 16:09, Doug McGarrett wrote:
> On Sunday 08 April 2007 22:44, dwain wrote:
>   
>> How long is a distribution (i.e. 10.2) supported with patches and updates
>> before I need to upgrade to the newest distribution?  Is it prudent to
>> upgrade when the new distribution is released from a RC?  Does opensuse go
>> from beta to release candidate to new version (or whatever it's called)?
>>
>> I think I'm making the migration from Windows to Linux quite gracefully,
>> but there are still a few nagging questions as I make the transition.
>>
>> Dwain
>> 
>
> Someone here said it was about 2 years, but specifically, I believe, it is
> one complete major number is released for sale or download, as a "gold"
> release.  I.e., my 9.3 will no longer be supported when 10.3 is released, in 
> July, I think.  (Boo-hoo!)  
>
> 

As already announced, 9.3 support ends on (IIRC) Apr 13, just a few days
from now -- after that, there will be no more security updates for it,
and the installation repository will be moved from the main tree to
"discontinued". The latest word on the release of the 10.3 GM is
somewhere around October this year.


-- 
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. -- HG Wells

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Doug McGarrett]

On Sunday 08 April 2007 22:44, dwain wrote:
> How long is a distribution (i.e. 10.2) supported with patches and updates
> before I need to upgrade to the newest distribution?  Is it prudent to
> upgrade when the new distribution is released from a RC?  Does opensuse go
> from beta to release candidate to new version (or whatever it's called)?
>
> I think I'm making the migration from Windows to Linux quite gracefully,
> but there are still a few nagging questions as I make the transition.
>
> Dwain

Someone here said it was about 2 years, but specifically, I believe, it is
one complete major number is released for sale or download, as a "gold"
release.  I.e., my 9.3 will no longer be supported when 10.3 is released, in 
July, I think.  (Boo-hoo!)  

Advice:  follow the advice of one of the other posters, to wit:  if it ain't 
broke, don't fix it!  I would wait at least three months before the new
version that makes yours obsolete, before thinking of upgrading.  Then you
will have at least some idea as to what's broke, and whether or not it got
fixed.  And then decide.  Most, if not all, of the patches are security 
patches, AFAICS, and Linux is pretty darned secure to begin with, so it
might not make much difference if you_ever_upgraded.  (I will take comments
on that from the rabble.)  However, and I admit this, the info on this list
will mostly apply to the new order of things, and it may become difficult to
get any help with old problems when the new kernal uses different commands
and programs and directories, and many users have actually forgotten the
old-style stuff.  

I would have to say that in a few instances, the developers have sawn off
the limb they're sitting on, as they go to new versions.  Not that us plebes
have much to say about it.  I really hope that 10.3 is really gold, and not 
dross.

--doug

--doug
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[David Brodbeck]

M Harris wrote:
>   Well... I'm just incensed here...   :-P
>
>   ... first off, if you're new to unix, the very first thing you *must* 
> learn 
> is vi, period, end of story. So, just pull out the info or man pages and get 
> cracking... you *will* need it before you grow up so just bite the bullet and 
> learn it... ok?... ok.
>   

Heh heh.

With all seriousness, sometimes when you're setting up a new system, or
recovering from some sort of disaster, vi is all you've got.  So it's
worthwhile to at least learn the basics.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[David Brodbeck]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Mon 09 Apr 2007 21:31, Doug McGarrett wrote:
>   
>> If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then
>> use something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe
>> 
>
>  - joe works fine for me . . . commands are similar to old 
> word-processor -"Star-Writer" [if I recall]
>   

The default keybindings are based loosely on "WordStar", which had a lot
of clones that used the same commands.  (NewWord, Star-Writer, etc.) 
There's a link to the same executable called 'jstar'.  If you run that
one, it uses an alternate set of keybindings that are even more
WordStar-like.  If you run it as 'jemacs' it uses an emacs-like set of
keybindings.

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[M Harris]

On Monday 09 April 2007 16:31, Doug McGarrett wrote:
> If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then use
> something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe.  There's a whole text-book on
> VI, and this is not a user-friendly thing, and neither is EMACS, altho the
> old Unix hands will tell you it's the only way.  It's not.  If you never
> expect to use a real Unix system, fageddaboudit!
>
> (I've probably started a flame war here, but if you investigate for
> yourself, you'll find that I'm right.)
>
> --doug
Well... I'm just incensed here...   :-P

... first off, if you're new to unix, the very first thing you *must* 
learn 
is vi, period, end of story. So, just pull out the info or man pages and get 
cracking... you *will* need it before you grow up so just bite the bullet and 
learn it... ok?... ok.

Second, emacs sux.

Third, well... go back to my first point.




-- 
Kind regards,

M Harris <><
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[riccardo35]

On Mon 09 Apr 2007 21:31, Doug McGarrett wrote:
> If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then
> use something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe

 - joe works fine for me . . . commands are similar to old 
word-processor -"Star-Writer" [if I recall]


best wishes

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Doug McGarrett]

On Monday 09 April 2007 01:54, dwain wrote:
> On Sunday 08 April 2007 23:45, M Harris wrote:
> > On Monday 09 April 2007 00:26, dwain wrote:
> > > How do I get to the man pages again?
> >
> > Actually, they are mostly obsolete...
> >
> > ... you want to load and use   info   these days
> >
> >
> > But if you insist, you can run
> >
> > man man
> >
> > You want to know how to use vi...   type
> >
> > man vi
> >
> > (or)   info vi
>
> I think I'll try info vi since the man pages are "mostly obsolete".  I
> appreciate your time and effort.  I hope to one day repay the community by
> becoming a productive participant.
>
> Regards,
> Dwain

If you're new to Unix/Linux, and you don't actually _need_VI, then use 
something friendly like MC, or pico, or joe.  There's a whole text-book on
VI, and this is not a user-friendly thing, and neither is EMACS, altho the
old Unix hands will tell you it's the only way.  It's not.  If you never 
expect to use a real Unix system, fageddaboudit!

(I've probably started a flame war here, but if you investigate for yourself,
you'll find that I'm right.)

--doug
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[James Knott]

Graham Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Martin J Hooper wrote:
>   
>> Graham Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> Use the URL
>>> #
>>> e.g.  #lp  will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp
>>>   
>> I thought it was man:/  That's what Ive done to get a
>> manpage in Konq...  Could be wrong though.
>> 
>
> You can use either 
> # or man:/
> Just that the latter takes more key strokes.
>
> BTW, you can also use info:/ to look at the info pages
>
>   
For info, you can use ##


-- 
Use OpenOffice.org 
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[James Knott]

Graham Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, dwain wrote:
>   
>> On Monday 09 April 2007 00:00, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:
>> 
>>> All a part of the learning process.  Imagine, you can actually even be
>>> an active participant, and can effect changes.
>>>   
>> I think I need to get a bit more opensuse under my belt and know a bit more
>> about the OS before I can effectively be an active participant.
>>
>> How do I get to the man pages again?
>> 
>
> You can use konqueror to look at the man pages. It has the advantage of being 
> able to click links within the man pages.
>
> Use the URL
> # 
> e.g.  #lp  will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp
>
>
>
>
>   
You can use that right from the desktop, by pressing Alt-F2, which
brings up a box where you can type the URL.


-- 
Use OpenOffice.org 
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[dwain]

On Monday 09 April 2007 05:33, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Monday 2007-04-09 at 05:10 -0500, dwain wrote:
> > > > BTW, you can also use info:/ to look at the info pages
> > >
> > > Ah So you can ;)  Thanks for the info...
> >
> > Is this done at the command line in the console or at the Run prompt?
>
> It is an URL for the konqueror browser.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>Carlos E. R.

I found that by typing it at the Run Command it opened it in Konqueror

Now, how do I set Kmail to bottom post? :^)

Cheers,
Dwain
-- 
Dwain Alford
P.O. Box 145
Winfield, Alabama  35594

telephone:  205.487.2570
cellphone:  205.495.5619

"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."

 Wassily Kandinsky, "Concerning The Spiritual In Art"


pgpB33S001Svk.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Martin J Hooper]

dwain wrote:

On Monday 09 April 2007 04:15, Martin J Hooper wrote:

Graham Smith wrote:

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Martin J Hooper wrote:

Graham Smith wrote:

Use the URL
#
e.g.  #lp  will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp

I thought it was man:/  That's what Ive done to get a
manpage in Konq...  Could be wrong though.

You can use either
# or man:/
Just that the latter takes more key strokes.

BTW, you can also use info:/ to look at the info pages

Ah So you can ;)  Thanks for the info...


Is this done at the command line in the console or at the Run prompt?


In a Konqerer Browser window in KDE

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-04-09 at 05:10 -0500, dwain wrote:


> > > BTW, you can also use info:/ to look at the info pages
> >
> > Ah So you can ;)  Thanks for the info...
> 
> Is this done at the command line in the console or at the Run prompt?

It is an URL for the konqueror browser.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGGhaKtTMYHG2NR9URAuayAJ9RCwGMbJnxsjX+MM0bN8wcRIDcFgCgl2YC
YfYWIo/bFZVAfcebiAZNugA=
=lvxP
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[dwain]

On Monday 09 April 2007 04:15, Martin J Hooper wrote:
> Graham Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Martin J Hooper wrote:
> >> Graham Smith wrote:
> >>> Use the URL
> >>> #
> >>> e.g.  #lp  will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp
> >>
> >> I thought it was man:/  That's what Ive done to get a
> >> manpage in Konq...  Could be wrong though.
> >
> > You can use either
> > # or man:/
> > Just that the latter takes more key strokes.
> >
> > BTW, you can also use info:/ to look at the info pages
>
> Ah So you can ;)  Thanks for the info...

Is this done at the command line in the console or at the Run prompt?
-- 
Dwain Alford
P.O. Box 145
Winfield, Alabama  35594

telephone:  205.487.2570
cellphone:  205.495.5619

"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."

 Wassily Kandinsky, "Concerning The Spiritual In Art"


pgp3XecuwTSYR.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Martin J Hooper]

Graham Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Martin J Hooper wrote:
>> Graham Smith wrote:
>>> Use the URL
>>> #
>>> e.g.  #lp  will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp
>> I thought it was man:/  That's what Ive done to get a
>> manpage in Konq...  Could be wrong though.
> 
> You can use either 
> # or man:/
> Just that the latter takes more key strokes.
> 
> BTW, you can also use info:/ to look at the info pages
> 

Ah So you can ;)  Thanks for the info...


-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2007-04-09 at 00:54 -0500, dwain wrote:

> I think I'll try info vi since the man pages are "mostly obsolete".  

No, I don't agree. They aren't "mostly" obsolete. Some of them are. Some 
have both an info and a man pages pointing to an html document instead. 
Some have a small man page with some data and a note saying the full info 
is in info format. Some do not have an info page, only a very up to date 
man page. It's up to the developpers how they document their program - 
some do not document it at all!

But a cathegorical afirmation that man pages are "mostly obsolete"... no, 
I can't agree.

Try "pinfo" (on the distro). It will display both info and man pages as 
available, and will jump from man to man, using as links the references 
like "apropos(1)" shown in red.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

iD8DBQFGGgHKtTMYHG2NR9URAr9aAJ0UOz/KwICb8f5f3gXvwsmF/lw3RwCcCErh
XVnqw4Tq7MkbCZUnJKR6CjA=
=hhQA
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[G.T.Smith]

M Harris wrote:
> On Monday 09 April 2007 00:26, dwain wrote:
>   
>> How do I get to the man pages again?
>> 
>   Actually, they are mostly obsolete...
>
>   ... you want to load and use   info   these days
>
>
>   
Really? There are quite a few commands that do not have an info entry!
Man is a unix thing and commands with a strong unix history or produced
outside the GNU project tend to have man pages (or entries in something
else that I cannot remember the name off but probably is redundant for
the Linux community). Info  is a GNU thing and GNU projects tend to have
info documents Both are useful  for different reasons but GNU
enthusiasts do tend to overdo the 'Man pages are dead' mantra somewhat, 
Especially as some info documents (e.g. the tar info entry)  have an
embarrassing number of "must write something sensible here" references.
For quick lookups man pages are good, for more complete references info
documents are useful  if occasionally incoherent.

The Linux Documentation Project (while not exactly on-line
documentation) is trying to collate that information and bring some
coherence to that documentation that does exist, and identify and fill
the gaps.  Their HowTo's can be particularly useful.


>   But if you insist, you can run
>
>   man man
>
>   You want to know how to use vi...   type
>
>   man vi
>
>   (or)   info vi
>
>
>
>   

begin:vcard
fn:Graham T. Smith
n:Smith;Graham T.
adr:Barton upon Humber;;90 Bowmandale;;North Lincs.;DN18 5EA;UK
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel;cell:07876793607
version:2.1
end:vcard

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Graham Smith]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, Martin J Hooper wrote:
> Graham Smith wrote:
> > Use the URL
> > #
> > e.g.  #lp  will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp
>
> I thought it was man:/  That's what Ive done to get a
> manpage in Konq...  Could be wrong though.

You can use either 
# or man:/
Just that the latter takes more key strokes.

BTW, you can also use info:/ to look at the info pages

-- 
Regards,

Graham Smith
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Martin J Hooper]

Graham Smith wrote:

Use the URL
# 
e.g.  #lp  will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp


I thought it was man:/  That's what Ive done to get a 
manpage in Konq...  Could be wrong though.



--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Graham Smith]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, dwain wrote:
> On Monday 09 April 2007 00:00, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:
> > All a part of the learning process.  Imagine, you can actually even be
> > an active participant, and can effect changes.
>
> I think I need to get a bit more opensuse under my belt and know a bit more
> about the OS before I can effectively be an active participant.
>
> How do I get to the man pages again?

You can use konqueror to look at the man pages. It has the advantage of being 
able to click links within the man pages.

Use the URL
# 
e.g.  #lp  will give you a list of all man pages starting with lp




-- 
Regards,

Graham Smith
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[dwain]

On Sunday 08 April 2007 23:45, M Harris wrote:
> On Monday 09 April 2007 00:26, dwain wrote:
> > How do I get to the man pages again?
>
>   Actually, they are mostly obsolete...
>
>   ... you want to load and use   info   these days
>
>
>   But if you insist, you can run
>
>   man man
>
>   You want to know how to use vi...   type
>
>   man vi
>
>   (or)   info vi

I think I'll try info vi since the man pages are "mostly obsolete".  I 
appreciate your time and effort.  I hope to one day repay the community by 
becoming a productive participant.

Regards,
Dwain
-- 
Dwain Alford
P.O. Box 145
Winfield, Alabama  35594

telephone:  205.487.2570
cellphone:  205.495.5619

"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."

 Wassily Kandinsky, "Concerning The Spiritual In Art"


pgpHj0cbT7dFJ.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[M Harris]

On Monday 09 April 2007 00:26, dwain wrote:
> How do I get to the man pages again?
Actually, they are mostly obsolete...

... you want to load and use   info   these days


But if you insist, you can run

man man

You want to know how to use vi...   type

man vi

(or)   info vi



-- 
Kind regards,

M Harris <><
-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[dwain]

On Monday 09 April 2007 00:00, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:
> All a part of the learning process.  Imagine, you can actually even be
> an active participant, and can effect changes.

I think I need to get a bit more opensuse under my belt and know a bit more 
about the OS before I can effectively be an active participant.

How do I get to the man pages again?
-- 
Dwain Alford
P.O. Box 145
Winfield, Alabama  35594

telephone:  205.487.2570
cellphone:  205.495.5619

"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."

 Wassily Kandinsky, "Concerning The Spiritual In Art"


pgpFftwauYYQC.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [opensuse] disrtibution support

[Joe Morris (NTM)]

dwain wrote:
> How long is a distribution (i.e. 10.2) supported with patches and updates 
> before I need to upgrade to the newest distribution?  
approx. 2 years
> Is it prudent to 
> upgrade when the new distribution is released from a RC?  
That is up to you.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it works here.  If you
need a new feature or a fix found in the new version, or want to be a
part of the community testing and filing (helpful) bug reports, then sure.
> Does opensuse go 
> from beta to release candidate to new version (or whatever it's called)?
>   
yes, from alpha, to beta, to release candidate, to gold master.
> I think I'm making the migration from Windows to Linux quite gracefully, but 
> there are still a few nagging questions as I make the transition.
>
>   
All a part of the learning process.  Imagine, you can actually even be
an active participant, and can effect changes.

-- 
Joe Morris
Registered Linux user 231871 running openSUSE 10.2 x86_64





-- 
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]