[opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Alexey Eremenko]

Hi all !

Basic utilities such as "ifconfig" do not work under user account, but
only under root.

This problem doesn't happens in other distros. This is because normal
user has no /sbin on it's $PATH.

I think we should add
export PATH=/sbin;$PATH
To skeleton user account to fix this.

What do you think?

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-Alexey Eremenko "Technologov"
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Benji Weber]

On 24/05/07, Alexey Eremenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi all !

Basic utilities such as "ifconfig" do not work under user account, but
only under root.


ifconfig has been deprecated for years and only still included so that
scripts don't break afaik.

Use "ip" which is in the normal users' path and provides a superset of
the functionality of ifconfig.

This doesn't preclude adding sbin to users' path for other reasons though.

_
Benjamin Weber
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[jdd]

Benji Weber wrote:

On 24/05/07, Alexey Eremenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi all !

Basic utilities such as "ifconfig" do not work under user account, but
only under root.


ifconfig has been deprecated for years and only still included so that
scripts don't break afaik.

Use "ip" which is in the normal users' path and provides a superset of
the functionality of ifconfig.

This doesn't preclude adding sbin to users' path for other reasons though.


/sbin/ifconfig works most of the time, when IP never works without 
obscure options...


jdd

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Druid]

>
> This doesn't preclude adding sbin to users' path for other reasons though.

/sbin/ifconfig works most of the time, when IP never works without
obscure options...



this argument is beyond silly... "ip a" show the same infos as "ifconfig".
Time for you to start reading some documentation.

Additionaly, a read about the FHS and sbin directories usage is also recommended

Do not say its not working when in fact, it is.

Marcio
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Jonathan Arsenault]

On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 16:05 +0100, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> Hi all !
> 
> Basic utilities such as "ifconfig" do not work under user account, but
> only under root.
> 
> This problem doesn't happens in other distros. This is because normal
> user has no /sbin on it's $PATH.
> 
> I think we should add
> export PATH=/sbin;$PATH
> To skeleton user account to fix this.
> 
> What do you think?
> 

I think you need to read about the FHS a bit..

As designed, nothing to see move along.

--
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-Zombie Coder.
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Donn Washburn]

Jonathan Arsenault wrote:

On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 16:05 +0100, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Hi all !

Basic utilities such as "ifconfig" do not work under user account, but
only under root.

This problem doesn't happens in other distros. This is because normal
user has no /sbin on it's $PATH.

I think we should add
export PATH=/sbin;$PATH
To skeleton user account to fix this.


I disagree with your statement that /sbin is only available to "root".
It can be obtained by a user with "> /sbin/ifconfig" by simply adding 
the complete path.  Also non System 5 unix distros ( like Debian based 
KNOPPIX and Ubuntu) have ruined the basic unix concept by destroying the 
value of root as being the all powerful user.  It was in the past 
thought of as root having complete control of the system without any 
permission problems.  Even to the point of complete eraser of the system 
(=> "rm -r *").  However, it was also assumed that this option was not 
available to the normal user ">".  Hence the different $PATH (echo 
$PATH) for root and a user.  Also "su" and "sudo" are not always equal 
to a real root user prompt "#".  They may come close but are not always 
the same as root.


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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Sid Boyce]

Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Hi all !

Basic utilities such as "ifconfig" do not work under user account, but
only under root.

This problem doesn't happens in other distros. This is because normal
user has no /sbin on it's $PATH.

I think we should add
export PATH=/sbin;$PATH
To skeleton user account to fix this.

What do you think?



That's so for a good reason, these are commands that only root should 
do, you wouldn't want users to take control of the system, shutting down 
the system, services, making changes that affect the way the system 
works, etc. at will. A normal user should only be capable of controlling 
his/her account. Imagine every user being able to issue halt and heading 
off to lunch, Windows uptime would look desireable by comparison.
If you are root and logged in as an ordinary user, you can use "sudo 
" which will prompt you for the root password, being root, you 
should be the only one who knows it and the one for other users to get 
mad at if you do something stupid to spoil their day. Fine if it's your 
personal machine where you are the only other user.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> sudo ifconfig
root's password:
eth0  Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr 00:50:22:40:0F:D2
  inet addr:192.168.10.1  Bcast:192.168.10.255  Mask:255.255.255.0
  inet6 addr: fe80::250:22ff:fe40:fd2/64 Scope:Link
  UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
  RX packets:7593909 errors:10 dropped:371 overruns:9 frame:0
  TX packets:8944053 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
  collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
  RX bytes:1933089695 (1843.5 Mb)  TX bytes:1468182934 (1400.1 Mb)
  Interrupt:16 Base address:0x6000

loLink encap:Local Loopback
  inet addr:127.0.0.1  Mask:255.0.0.0
  inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host
  UP LOOPBACK RUNNING  MTU:16436  Metric:1
  RX packets:2650319 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
  TX packets:2650319 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
  collisions:0 txqueuelen:0
  RX bytes:390406030 (372.3 Mb)  TX bytes:390406030 (372.3 Mb)
Regards
Sid.
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Alexey Eremenko]

On 5/26/07, Sid Boyce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> Hi all !
>
> Basic utilities such as "ifconfig" do not work under user account, but
> only under root.
>
> This problem doesn't happens in other distros. This is because normal
> user has no /sbin on it's $PATH.
>
> I think we should add
> export PATH=/sbin;$PATH
> To skeleton user account to fix this.
>
> What do you think?
>

That's so for a good reason, these are commands that only root should
do, you wouldn't want users to take control of the system, shutting down
the system, services, making changes that affect the way the system
works, etc. at will. A normal user should only be capable of controlling
his/her account. Imagine every user being able to issue halt and heading
off to lunch, Windows uptime would look desireable by comparison.
If you are root and logged in as an ordinary user, you can use "sudo
" which will prompt you for the root password, being root, you
should be the only one who knows it and the one for other users to get
mad at if you do something stupid to spoil their day. Fine if it's your
personal machine where you are the only other user.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> sudo ifconfig


LOL !
Running ifconfig as root is totally different than running it with
/sbin/ifconfig as normal user.
Adding /sbin/* to user's $PATH won't make any security problems.
ifconfig should be useble by normal users to see their IP addresses,
not to configure ones.

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Randall R Schulz]

On Friday 25 May 2007 15:45, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> ...
> 
> LOL !
> Running ifconfig as root is totally different than running it with
> /sbin/ifconfig as normal user.

How do you figure?

When I run /sbin/ifconfig from my own account and then ifconfig from 
root (though I have /sbin in my everyday path), and diff the results, 
this is what I get:

diff /tmp/{rschulz,root}-ifconfig
5c5
<   RX packets:654610 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
---
>   RX packets:654611 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
8c8
<   RX bytes:439743722 (419.3 Mb)  TX bytes:61560706 (58.7 Mb)
---
>   RX bytes:439743782 (419.3 Mb)  TX bytes:61560706 (58.7 Mb)


The only differences are the statistics that naturally change over time. 
If I could synchronize the two invocations closely enough, they might 
not differ at all.


> Adding /sbin/* to user's $PATH won't make any security problems.

True, as far as I can think of.


> ifconfig should be useble by normal users to see their IP addresses,
> not to configure ones.

I'd go for "hostname -i" to simply see my local host's IP address. It's 
much easier than finding the proper IP address in the output of 
ifconfig (it currently produces 44 lines of output on my system). 
The "hostname" command happens to be in /bin/hostname, which should be 
in every user's PATH. Hostname has lots of other useful options. Check 
it out.


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Alexey Eremenko]

On 5/26/07, Randall R Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Friday 25 May 2007 15:45, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> ...
>
> LOL !
> Running ifconfig as root is totally different than running it with
> /sbin/ifconfig as normal user.

How do you figure?

When I run /sbin/ifconfig from my own account and then ifconfig from
root (though I have /sbin in my everyday path), and diff the results,
this is what I get:

diff /tmp/{rschulz,root}-ifconfig
5c5
<   RX packets:654610 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
---
>   RX packets:654611 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
8c8
<   RX bytes:439743722 (419.3 Mb)  TX bytes:61560706 (58.7 Mb)
---
>   RX bytes:439743782 (419.3 Mb)  TX bytes:61560706 (58.7 Mb)


The only differences are the statistics that naturally change over time.
If I could synchronize the two invocations closely enough, they might
not differ at all.


> Adding /sbin/* to user's $PATH won't make any security problems.

True, as far as I can think of.


> ifconfig should be useble by normal users to see their IP addresses,
> not to configure ones.

I'd go for "hostname -i" to simply see my local host's IP address. It's
much easier than finding the proper IP address in the output of
ifconfig (it currently produces 44 lines of output on my system).
The "hostname" command happens to be in /bin/hostname, which should be
in every user's PATH. Hostname has lots of other useful options. Check
it out.


Well, this command returns something incorrect:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> hostname -i
127.0.0.2

Because I don't have such an IP address.

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-Alexey Eremenko "Technologov"
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Randall R Schulz]

On Friday 25 May 2007 16:06, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> On 5/26/07, Randall R Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> >
> > I'd go for "hostname -i" to simply see my local host's IP address.
> > It's much easier than finding the proper IP address in the output
> > of ifconfig (it currently produces 44 lines of output on my
> > system). The "hostname" command happens to be in /bin/hostname,
> > which should be in every user's PATH. Hostname has lots of other
> > useful options. Check it out.
>
> Well, this command returns something incorrect:

If that's really so, probably something is misconfigured.


> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> hostname -i
> 127.0.0.2
>
> Because I don't have such an IP address.

How sure are you of that? Why don't you try pinging and traceroute-ing 
it?


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Alexey Eremenko]

Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
normal user.

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Sat, 26 May 2007, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

> Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
> normal user.

Don't cry you do not have access.
We all know you are a fox, not a child.


Viele Grüße
Eberhard Mönkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Randall R Schulz]

On Friday 25 May 2007 16:35, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
> normal user.

It cannot be denied. Use it as you will! Put /sbin in your path, by all 
means.

What's the problem? Do you prefer not to be satisfied???


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Druid]

On 5/25/07, Alexey Eremenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
normal user.


Change whatever you want in YOUR box, and stop bugging people with
this sillyness.

Marcio
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Jonathan Arsenault]

On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 02:35 +0300, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
> normal user.

Yes, lets change the UNIX way for the unsatisfied kid ...

Snip from the FHS.

/sbin : System binaries
Purpose
Utilities used for system administration (and other root-only commands)
are stored in /sbin, /usr/sbin, and /usr/local/sbin.


http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#SBINSYSTEMBINARIES

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Benji Weber]

On 26/05/07, Alexey Eremenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
normal user.


Why not just use "ip a" and saveyourself a whole 4 keystrokes?

_
Benjamin Weber
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Rafał Miłecki]

2007/5/26, Benji Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On 26/05/07, Alexey Eremenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
> normal user.

Why not just use "ip a" and saveyourself a whole 4 keystrokes?


Fine. But what is your solution as alternative for "iwlist"? If I am
logges as normal user, i can not just type "iwlist".


--
Rafał Miłecki
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Benji Weber]

On 26/05/07, Rafał Miłecki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

2007/5/26, Benji Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 26/05/07, Alexey Eremenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
> > normal user.
>
> Why not just use "ip a" and saveyourself a whole 4 keystrokes?

Fine. But what is your solution as alternative for "iwlist"? If I am
logges as normal user, i can not just type "iwlist".


knetworkmanager?

Supposedly we're getting networkmanager based CLI tools "real soon now".

However, I have no strong opinions about whether /sbin should be in
the user's path. ifconfig is hardly the best example to use to argue
that it should be though.
_
Benjamin Weber
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Randall R Schulz]

On Saturday 26 May 2007 01:13, Rafał Miłecki wrote:
> 2007/5/26, Benji Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > On 26/05/07, Alexey Eremenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig
> > > from normal user.
> >
> > Why not just use "ip a" and saveyourself a whole 4 keystrokes?
>
> Fine. But what is your solution as alternative for "iwlist"? If I am
> logges as normal user, i can not just type "iwlist".

The PATH variable setting is not imposed on you. Change it to be 
whatever you like. I add /sbin and /usr/sbin to mine. I'm sure many 
others do, to, especially those with administrative duties, which 
applies in some sense to all single-user systems.

Randall schulz
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Rafał Miłecki]

2007/5/26, Randall R Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

The PATH variable setting is not imposed on you. Change it to be
whatever you like. I add /sbin and /usr/sbin to mine. I'm sure many
others do, to, especially those with administrative duties, which
applies in some sense to all single-user systems.


Oh, come on! We are not talking about ourself problems only but about
the best default comfiguration for most users. I use Linux for 3 years
and for these 3 years I was using root user to check "iwlist scan".

You could also say "Don't complain about buggy compiled kernel,
compile it yourself! Don't complain about buggy ZMD, prepare packages
yourself!" It doesn't make sense.

--
Rafał Miłecki

Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Benji Weber]

On 27/05/07, Rafał Miłecki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Oh, come on! We are not talking about ourself problems only but about
the best default comfiguration for most users. I use Linux for 3 years
and for these 3 years I was using root user to check "iwlist scan".


I would suggest iwlist is unlikely to be something a new user would
use when there are easy to use graphical tools which do the same
thing. An alternative to adding /sbin to a user's path would be to
symlink the utilities such as iwlist in /bin (this is what is done
with "ip") .

_
Benjamin Weber
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Hans Witvliet]

On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 03:38 -0400, Jonathan Arsenault wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 02:35 +0300, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> > Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
> > normal user.
> 
> Yes, lets change the UNIX way for the unsatisfied kid ...
> 
> Snip from the FHS.
> 
> /sbin : System binaries
> Purpose
> Utilities used for system administration (and other root-only commands)
> are stored in /sbin, /usr/sbin, and /usr/local/sbin.
> 
> 
> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#SBINSYSTEMBINARIES
> 
> --


Ok,
so why not:

 ln -s /sbin/ifconfig /home/hwit/bin/Ifconfig

Keep the system binaries only for the "root-user" and give only specific
commands also to a selected group of users.

HW

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Ludwig Nussel]

Jonathan Arsenault wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 02:35 +0300, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> > Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
> > normal user.
> 
> Yes, lets change the UNIX way for the unsatisfied kid ...
> 
> Snip from the FHS.
> 
> /sbin : System binaries
> Purpose
> Utilities used for system administration (and other root-only commands)
> are stored in /sbin, /usr/sbin, and /usr/local/sbin.
> 
> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#SBINSYSTEMBINARIES

So what? That doesn't tell anything about whether it makes sense to have sbin
in $PATH. I'd vote for appending sbin to regular users' $PATH by default. There
are many tools in sbin that can be called as user to display at least some
status information (or even just the help text). The clueless don't use the
shell anyways and therefore don't care.

cu
Ludwig

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Jonathan Arsenault]

On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 09:08 +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
> Jonathan Arsenault wrote:
> > On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 02:35 +0300, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> > > Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
> > > normal user.
> > 
> > Yes, lets change the UNIX way for the unsatisfied kid ...
> > 
> > Snip from the FHS.
> > 
> > /sbin : System binaries
> > Purpose
> > Utilities used for system administration (and other root-only commands)
> > are stored in /sbin, /usr/sbin, and /usr/local/sbin.
> > 
> > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#SBINSYSTEMBINARIES
> 
> So what? That doesn't tell anything about whether it makes sense to have sbin
> in $PATH.

Yes logic does, if those are root-only command they do not belong into a
normal user path.

>  I'd vote for appending sbin to regular users' $PATH by default. There
> are many tools in sbin that can be called as user to display at least some
> status information (or even just the help text). The clueless don't use the
> shell anyways and therefore don't care.

Many tool usable by user in there, like what ? ifconfig and iwlist are
the exception and not the rule, ip that a user should use instead of
deprecated ifconfig is symlinked to /bin already.

Look at the 270'or so binary in /sbin and the 330'or so in /usr/sbin
(/opt/gnome/sbin and /opt/kde3/sbin even) and tell me that they belong
into a user path, if you think about answering yes to that then explain
to me why they needed to be separated in the first place from normal
bin. Lets just stuff hem all in a giant directory and be done with
it ...

--
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-Zombie Coder.
Jonathan Arsenault - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Kenneth Schneider]

On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 09:08 +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
> Jonathan Arsenault wrote:
> > On Sat, 2007-05-26 at 02:35 +0300, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> > > Anyways, I'm not satisfied. I want to have access to my ifconfig from
> > > normal user.
> > 
> > Yes, lets change the UNIX way for the unsatisfied kid ...
> > 
> > Snip from the FHS.
> > 
> > /sbin : System binaries
> > Purpose
> > Utilities used for system administration (and other root-only commands)
> > are stored in /sbin, /usr/sbin, and /usr/local/sbin.
> > 
> > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#SBINSYSTEMBINARIES
> 
> So what? That doesn't tell anything about whether it makes sense to have sbin
> in $PATH. I'd vote for appending sbin to regular users' $PATH by default. 
> There
> are many tools in sbin that can be called as user to display at least some
> status information (or even just the help text). The clueless don't use the
> shell anyways and therefore don't care.
> 

So... You subscribe to the MS theory of "security through obscurity"
then? And remember the "clueless" as you call them don't always remain
"clueless".

Ken Schneider

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Dominique Leuenberger]

>> So what? That doesn't tell anything about whether it makes sense to have 
> sbin
>> in $PATH. I'd vote for appending sbin to regular users' $PATH by default. 
> There
>> are many tools in sbin that can be called as user to display at least some
>> status information (or even just the help text). The clueless don't use the
>> shell anyways and therefore don't care.
>> 
> 
> So... You subscribe to the MS theory of "security through obscurity"
> then? And remember the "clueless" as you call them don't always remain
> "clueless".

If it's so much an issue for your system, why not add it on them? I basically 
don't see any reason to have $PATH pointing to /sbin.
Not so many tools in there are usable as non-root (some give some information), 
but if you know you need them once in a while, prefix the command with a path 
(hey cool, that still works) or if you use them on a such regular basis, extend 
your $PATH statement on your machine.

After all, you have the power over your machine; why should all settings some 
people would like as a default setting? That's absurd.
I for myself always configure a second panel in gnome, why is it not standard? 
It improves my efficiency a lot, having the panels arranged in a way I need.

So long,

Dominique

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Ludwig Nussel]

Jonathan Arsenault wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 09:08 +0200, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

> >  I'd vote for appending sbin to regular users' $PATH by default. There
> > are many tools in sbin that can be called as user to display at least some
> > status information (or even just the help text). The clueless don't use the
> > shell anyways and therefore don't care.
> 
> Many tool usable by user in there, like what ? ifconfig and iwlist are
> the exception and not the rule, ip that a user should use instead of
> deprecated ifconfig is symlinked to /bin already.

route, traceroute, nfsstat, alsactl, lpc, mkfs ... I'm sure you'll
find dozens more.

> Look at the 270'or so binary in /sbin and the 330'or so in /usr/sbin
> (/opt/gnome/sbin and /opt/kde3/sbin even) and tell me that they belong
> into a user path, if you think about answering yes to that then explain
> to me why they needed to be separated in the first place from normal
> bin. Lets just stuff hem all in a giant directory and be done with
> it ...

The question was not whether the file system layout as we know it
still makes sense but whether non-root users would benefit from
quick access to sbin binaries by default. Changing the default[1]
PATH is the probably the most simple way to achieve that if you
don't want touch individual packages and add extra symlinks.

cu
Ludwig

[1] which means you'd be free to change it back

-- 
 (o_   Ludwig Nussel
 //\   SUSE Labs
 V_/_  http://www.suse.de/
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg)



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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Benji Weber]

On 29/05/07, Ludwig Nussel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The question was not whether the file system layout as we know it
still makes sense but whether non-root users would benefit from
quick access to sbin binaries by default. Changing the default[1]
PATH is the probably the most simple way to achieve that if you
don't want touch individual packages and add extra symlinks.


It's also worth bearing in mind that sudo uses the user's environment
(including path) by default, so sudo  doesn't work.
Which confuses many people coming from ubuntu.

_
Benjamin Weber
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Pascal Bleser]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Ludwig Nussel wrote:
...
> The question was not whether the file system layout as we know it
> still makes sense but whether non-root users would benefit from
> quick access to sbin binaries by default. Changing the default[1]
> PATH is the probably the most simple way to achieve that if you
> don't want touch individual packages and add extra symlinks.

OK, but being the only Linux distribution that does it is a no-no.
That would be as weird as what Ubuntu did with sudo (but not as dangerous).

cheers
- --
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Alexey Eremenko]

Adding /sbin/ to user's $PATH doesn't lower your security. (because
you're still bound by Linux-user security privileges)

But it will make our systems easier to use. So I vote for making it the default.

--
-Alexey Eremenko "Technologov"
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Pascal Bleser]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> Adding /sbin/ to user's $PATH doesn't lower your security. (because
> you're still bound by Linux-user security privileges)
> 
> But it will make our systems easier to use. So I vote for making it the
> default.

And it breaks 30 years of conventions on Unix systems and would be the
only Linux distribution doing that by default.

So that's definitely a no.

Do it on your box if you like to or even add a switch in YaST2 to enable
it, but don't make it the default setting.

cheers
- --
  -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
  /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Ricardo Cruz]

Qua, 2007-05-30 às 22:41 +0200, Pascal Bleser escreveu:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> > Adding /sbin/ to user's $PATH doesn't lower your security. (because
> > you're still bound by Linux-user security privileges)
> > 
> > But it will make our systems easier to use. So I vote for making it the
> > default.
> 
> And it breaks 30 years of conventions on Unix systems and would be the
> only Linux distribution doing that by default.
> 
 It should be said that there was never much formal designs on the Unix
file hierarchy as you imply. Freaking /home was former /usr, later
splitted. I don't remember this stuff exactly, just some mention in
college and some interneting, not much digging into it, but it
seems /sbin comes from /etc, where among others some init scripts were
put, and as the rest of the tree it evolved as needed.

 There is no shame in rethinking Suse's file hierarchy, but this isn't
even the case. Is there any convention at all with regard to user's
PATH?
 Personally, I think this only makes sense if we go through the sudo
route, like Ubuntu. Otherwise, just symlink from /bin.

Cheers,
 Ricardo

> So that's definitely a no.
> 
> Do it on your box if you like to or even add a switch in YaST2 to enable
> it, but don't make it the default setting.
> 
> cheers
> - --
>   -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Alexey Eremenko]

On 5/31/07, Ricardo Cruz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 Personally, I think this only makes sense if we go through the sudo
route, like Ubuntu.
Otherwise, just symlink from /bin.



Ohh yes, symlinking from /sbin to /bin can also solve those problems,
of inaccessible utilities.

--
-Alexey Eremenko "Technologov"
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Randall R Schulz]

On Wednesday 30 May 2007 13:41, Pascal Bleser wrote:
> Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> > Adding /sbin/ to user's $PATH doesn't lower your security. (because
> > you're still bound by Linux-user security privileges)
> >
> > But it will make our systems easier to use. So I vote for making it
> > the default.
>
> And it breaks 30 years of conventions on Unix systems and would be
> the only Linux distribution doing that by default.

I don't know about you, but I was using Unix (the only and only Unix) 30 
years ago, and this issue simply did not exist. There was /bin 
and /usr/bin and everybody had both in their path, of course.

So it's a little disingenuous to make this claim.

Furthermore, we should not let history or tradition stand in the way of 
improvement. If not having administrative directories in the default 
path is an impediment for users, then they should be added.

I'm agnostic on the actual topic, though, since I never run with a stock 
PATH or pretty much stock anything...


> So that's definitely a no.
>
> Do it on your box if you like to or even add a switch in YaST2 to
> enable it, but don't make it the default setting.

I really fail to see a down-side, with the possible exception of the 
fact that there are sometimes multiple commands with the same name. 
Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in /sbin does, but it 
doesn't appear to be at all the same thing that the one in /usr/bin/ 
does (which is to look up whois directory information).


> cheers


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Randall R Schulz]

On Wednesday 30 May 2007 15:00, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
> On 5/31/07, Ricardo Cruz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  Personally, I think this only makes sense if we go through the
> > sudo route, like Ubuntu.
> >Otherwise, just symlink from /bin.
>
> Ohh yes, symlinking from /sbin to /bin can also solve those problems,
> of inaccessible utilities.

You must do this with care.

As I mentioned in my earlier post on this matter, there is a "whois" 
command in both /usr/bin /and /usr/sbin and they're not the same 
command.


Randall schulz
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Druid]

You must do this with care.


My question is why. You could do this with care, and waste man-hours
doing a silly thing that will result in no benefit, or we could go
work in other stuff, right? Make things easier? The people who should
be messing with that in a root shell should know what they should run.

How they know the should run ifconfig? Because they LEARNED that.
Thats the same reason that they should LEARN that some commands are
available only to root. Same they learn there's a linux way of doing
things.

People think "permission denied" and "command not found" are
apocalyptic errors. They dont see that as an informative message.
Which will happen if this insane thing goes on. But thats not even the
point. Why adding so many entropy in something that has so little
(zero) result. It wont any gain in the results. It will make us drift
from the FHS, confuse users, confuse developers, confuse people
learning linux on suse, confuse people learning linux in another
distro and wanting to use suse. Why? This will produce only entropy
and confusion.

I need to remind the beginning of this discussion, which was because
two people though it was too complicated to run "ip a", which is the
way to do the damn task of checking interface infos.  So instead of
doing the right thing, you people want to invert the rotation of earth
because you cant type "ip a". Why?

We do things this way its been a long time, and why only now we in
this topic are the first human beings in the surface of earth that
though of that? So the other people, including the ones who did FHS
are a bunch of stupid clowns?

Marcio
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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The Wednesday 2007-05-30 at 15:09 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

> I really fail to see a down-side, with the possible exception of the 
> fact that there are sometimes multiple commands with the same name. 
> Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in /sbin does, but it 
> doesn't appear to be at all the same thing that the one in /usr/bin/ 
> does (which is to look up whois directory information).

I only have "/usr/bin/whois".

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Randall R Schulz]

On Wednesday 30 May 2007 17:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Wednesday 2007-05-30 at 15:09 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > I really fail to see a down-side, with the possible exception of
> > the fact that there are sometimes multiple commands with the same
> > name. Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in /sbin
> > does, but it doesn't appear to be at all the same thing that the
> > one in /usr/bin/ does (which is to look up whois directory
> > information).
>
> I only have "/usr/bin/whois".

Ooh. This is good. I don't know why I didn't try this earlier:

% rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/sbin/whois
sax2-tools-2.7-27


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Patrick Shanahan]

* Randall R Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [05-30-07 21:02]:
> On Wednesday 30 May 2007 17:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > The Wednesday 2007-05-30 at 15:09 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > I really fail to see a down-side, with the possible exception of
> > > the fact that there are sometimes multiple commands with the same
> > > name. Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in /sbin
> > > does, but it doesn't appear to be at all the same thing that the
> > > one in /usr/bin/ does (which is to look up whois directory
> > > information).
> >
> > I only have "/usr/bin/whois".

  me 2
  

> Ooh. This is good. I don't know why I didn't try this earlier:
> 
> % rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/sbin/whois
> sax2-tools-2.7-27


21:26 wahoo:~ > rpm -q sax2-tools
sax2-tools-8.1-218.1
21:26 wahoo:~ > rpm -ql sax2-tools
/usr/sbin/corner
/usr/sbin/dots
/usr/sbin/isax
/usr/sbin/testX
/usr/sbin/vncp
/usr/sbin/whereiam
/usr/sbin/wmstart
/usr/sbin/xidle
/usr/sbin/ximage
/usr/sbin/xkbctrl
/usr/sbin/xlook
/usr/sbin/xmode
/usr/sbin/xquery
/usr/sbin/xw
/usr/share/man/man1/sax2.1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/xkbctrl.1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/xmode.1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/xquery.1.gz

-- 
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http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album:  http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
OpenSUSE Linux   http://en.opensuse.org/
Registered Linux User #207535@ http://counter.li.org
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Randall R Schulz]

On Wednesday 30 May 2007 18:27, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> * Randall R Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [05-30-07 21:02]:
> > On Wednesday 30 May 2007 17:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > > The Wednesday 2007-05-30 at 15:09 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > > I really fail to see a down-side, with the possible exception
> > > > of the fact that there are sometimes multiple commands with the
> > > > same name. Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in
> > > > /sbin does, but it doesn't appear to be at all the same thing
> > > > that the one in /usr/bin/ does (which is to look up whois
> > > > directory information).
> > >
> > > I only have "/usr/bin/whois".
>
>   me 2
>
> > Ooh. This is good. I don't know why I didn't try this earlier:
> >
> > % rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/sbin/whois
> > sax2-tools-2.7-27

% rpm -q sax2-tools
sax2-tools-2.7-27

% rpm -ql sax2-tools
/usr/sbin/catch
/usr/sbin/corner
/usr/sbin/demo
/usr/sbin/demo.sh
/usr/sbin/dots
/usr/sbin/fake
/usr/sbin/hwupdate
/usr/sbin/isax
/usr/sbin/screen
/usr/sbin/testX
/usr/sbin/whois
/usr/sbin/wmstart
/usr/sbin/wrap
/usr/sbin/xbounce
/usr/sbin/xbound
/usr/sbin/xidle
/usr/sbin/ximage
/usr/sbin/xkbctrl
/usr/sbin/xkbset
/usr/sbin/xlook
/usr/sbin/xmirror
/usr/sbin/xmode
/usr/sbin/xmset
/usr/sbin/xquery
/usr/sbin/xupdate
/usr/sbin/xw
/usr/share/man/man1/sax2.1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/xkbctrl.1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/xkbset.1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/xmode.1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/xmset.1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/xquery.1.gz


It looks like Sax2 has gone on some kind of a weight-loss program 
between versions 2.7 and 8.1.


Randall Schulz
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Pascal Bleser]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Randall R Schulz wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 May 2007 13:41, Pascal Bleser wrote:
>> Alexey Eremenko wrote:
>>> Adding /sbin/ to user's $PATH doesn't lower your security. (because
>>> you're still bound by Linux-user security privileges)
>>>
>>> But it will make our systems easier to use. So I vote for making it
>>> the default.
>> And it breaks 30 years of conventions on Unix systems and would be
>> the only Linux distribution doing that by default.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I was using Unix (the only and only Unix) 30 
> years ago, and this issue simply did not exist. There was /bin 
> and /usr/bin and everybody had both in their path, of course.
> 
> So it's a little disingenuous to make this claim.

OK, you want to be pedantic, then replace "30 years of Unix" with "10
years of Linux".

> Furthermore, we should not let history or tradition stand in the way of 
> improvement. If not having administrative directories in the default 
> path is an impediment for users, then they should be added.

Users too stupid to prepend /sbin or add /sbin:/usr/sbin at the end of
PATH shouldn't even touch the binaries located there in my opinion.

> I'm agnostic on the actual topic, though, since I never run with a stock 
> PATH or pretty much stock anything...
> 
>> So that's definitely a no.
>>
>> Do it on your box if you like to or even add a switch in YaST2 to
>> enable it, but don't make it the default setting.
> 
> I really fail to see a down-side, with the possible exception of the 
> fact that there are sometimes multiple commands with the same name. 
> Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in /sbin does, but it 
> doesn't appear to be at all the same thing that the one in /usr/bin/ 
> does (which is to look up whois directory information).

/usr/sbin:/sbin has to be added at the end of PATH

Anyhow, being the only Linux distribution that would do it is a
sufficient reason _not_ to do it.
I find it surprising people fail to see that.

If it's too difficult to do
echo 'PATH=$PATH:/usr/sbin:/sbin' >> /etc/profile.local
then let's ask for adding a setting in YaST2 to do it (through
/etc/sysconfig/suseconfig which already has settings for having . in
root's PATH and such) but not a default option IMO.

cheers
- --
  -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
  /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Volker Kuhlmann]

On Thu 31 May 2007 13:01:34 NZST +1200, Randall R Schulz wrote:

> > > name. Whois springs to mind. I'm not sure what the one in /sbin
> > > does, but it doesn't appear to be at all the same thing that the
> > > one in /usr/bin/ does (which is to look up whois directory
> > > information).

> % rpm -q --whatprovides /usr/sbin/whois
> sax2-tools-2.7-27

That package is in SUSE 10.0. There was a toss-up with sax2 shipping
either a useless whois or some unrelated command called whois, someone
realised the mistake and fixed it. 10.0 is the only one with this
problem.

Volker

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Wednesday 2007-05-30 at 19:11 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

> It looks like Sax2 has gone on some kind of a weight-loss program 
> between versions 2.7 and 8.1.

Or the file has changed name to something more sensible.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Thursday 2007-05-31 at 07:13 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

> Anyhow, being the only Linux distribution that would do it is a
> sufficient reason _not_ to do it.
> I find it surprising people fail to see that.

O:-)

No, because it always has had things and features not found in any other 
distro, and that's a good thing, IMO. If there were no differences, there 
would not be special interest in any distro.

> If it's too difficult to do
> echo 'PATH=$PATH:/usr/sbin:/sbin' >> /etc/profile.local
> then let's ask for adding a setting in YaST2 to do it (through
> /etc/sysconfig/suseconfig which already has settings for having . in
> root's PATH and such) but not a default option IMO.

Yes, that would be nice. Not a default choice, but an option. It could be 
improved by having that option only for some users (those that do 
administration tasks), but then it wouldn't be so simple to implement in 
yast/suseconfig.


- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos E. R.

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Making Basic Utilities work under normal user

[Randall R Schulz]

On Wednesday 30 May 2007 22:13, Pascal Bleser wrote:
> ...
>
> Anyhow, being the only Linux distribution that would do it is a
> sufficient reason _not_ to do it.
> I find it surprising people fail to see that.

By that logic, we need only one distribution, since there would be no 
justification for them to differ from one another.


> ...


RRS
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