Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
This thread made me recall a couple of things I heard over the years. One was the book by cancer survivor and Tour de France winner, Lance Armstrong, "It's Not About The Bike." The other was from a cattleman's field day many years ago in Greeley, Colorado. The subject was "quality in beef cattle. Someone asked if there was any particular breed of cattle that had more quality. One buyer replied that cattle came in many different colors, but green money has a certain quality about it. "You can make money with any kind of cattle," he concluded. Now, to paraphrase Lance Armstrong, it's not about the lens. You can make pictures with any kind of lens, or camera, or film. And as the cattle buyer said, pictures have a certain quality about them and you can make pictures with any kind of equipment. What seperates Ansel Adams from the rest of us was his ability to see...to visualize. I think you could give Ansel Adams any combination of camera, film and processing chemicals and he would come up with an "Ansel Adams" picture. It was Adam's ability to take an ordinary scene and turn it into a work of art that made him special not his equipment. I still stand by the old axiom that photography is simple...the only difficult part is keeping it simple. The only important thing for a photographer to learn is how to paint with light and to reproduce what he sees in his mind. Ken On Tuesday 14 May 2002 01:05 am, William Robb wrote: > > The whole friggin point isn't about whether the zoom is a better > compositional tool or not. It's not about composition at all. > It's about learning how to see what light does when it hits an > object, how that gets translated into an image. This is best > learned with a 50mm lens (if we are using the 35mm format as an > example). It matches (more or less) the field of view of the > human eye, and consequently, produces a picture with a > perspective we can immediately relate to. -- Kenneth Archer, San Antonio, Texas [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Bill you obviously feel strongly about this. Can you learn better with a 50mm? Maybe. I don't see why? Maybe the argument is that you can learn to see better with a prime lens rather than a zoom. I'm not sure about that either. I know the old school of thought certainly pushes this concept. But things have changed. I think the best way to study light is to use your eyes. You don't even need a camera or a lens. It's not worth worrying about. Some Students will benefit from the simplicity of a 50 mm lens. Others will flourish with the versatility of a zoom lens. There's no easy answers here. Vic In a message dated 5/14/02 1:07:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: <> - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
- Original Message - From: Jonathan Donald Subject: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student The whole friggin point isn't about whether the zoom is a better compositional tool or not. It's not about composition at all. It's about learning how to see what light does when it hits an object, how that gets translated into an image. This is best learned with a 50mm lens (if we are using the 35mm format as an example). It matches (more or less) the field of view of the human eye, and consequently, produces a picture with a perspective we can immediately relate to. The idea is to learn one thing at a time, and learn it well. First, learn what light does, that controls everything else. Composition is secondary to this, as compositional needs will change depending on the angle of light hitting the object. Not my fault a bunch of idiots think this is bullshit. People that have this figured out are better photographers. Look back at the subject line. The word "Student" should say something about where I am coming from. You can learn what I am talking about with any lens, it doesn't matter if you use a zoom, or a friggin fisheye. You will learn it faster, and better with a standard focal length prime lens, one that doesn't allow you to cheat, just because you want the instant gratification of easy composition. Some of this stuff is work. Now, back to my rock. Thanks Bill - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Some thoughts on zooms... I think zooms are great tools for teaching cropping, but not that great for teaching someone how to "see" in terms of a particular focal length. If you stand in one place and take a series of photos with a zoom lens set to, say, 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm and 105mm, you're not taking five different photos. All you're doing is taking one photo at 28mm and then cropping differently. Perspective, proportion... everything stays the same as you zoom in. Zooming a lens does not give you a different photo, only a different crop. OTOH, if you took a 28mm lens and took five photos while walking towards an object to make it larger, *then* you'd have five different pictures. The size of the object would still be increasing in your viewfinder, but its relation to the background and the apparent perspective of the photo would be changing. Can you set a zoom lens to a particular focal length and use it like a prime? Of course. Do zooms encourage this kind of shooting? Not at all, IMO. I think zooms can be a great tool if used correctly. They can give you an idea of how a shot will look like from different crops, and they can take the place of several primes if you are willing or able to use your feet. As for whether or not zooms are good for beginners... I'm staying out of that one. :) I agree with Bill in theory, but I also think that there are a lot of beginners out there who would have the discipline to use a zoom properly if their instructor explained the issue to them. chris - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
- Original Message - From: tom Subject: RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > I never said I knew anything, much less everything. I just have issues > with anyone in any field saying there's one true way to learn. Not > only are there several ways to learn, people have different > motivations and ends. > > I got dismissive because it's bad logic. > > BTW, I had no compositional learning curve. You don't get it either Tom. It's not about composition. It's about learning how to see, William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of William Robb > - Original Message - > From: tom > Subject: RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice > Needed For Student > > > > Hmm. A zoom lens made *you* lazy, therefore zooms make people > lazy. > > > > Whatever. > > I've seen it happen more often than not. > Some people are better disciplined than others. > Most will take the easy way, which is not necessarily the right > way. > Some turn pro, figure they know it all, and get dismissive about > the learning curve that they went through themselves. > Whatever. I never said I knew anything, much less everything. I just have issues with anyone in any field saying there's one true way to learn. Not only are there several ways to learn, people have different motivations and ends. I got dismissive because it's bad logic. BTW, I had no compositional learning curve. tv - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Ed, I should have made clear that I was talking about "recreational" photography only. Of course, if you are shooting for money, if you have to take *this* shot, you have to take it, period. OTOH, if your goal is to take *a* good picture, pretty much any object can be shot from a dozen different angles, with a dozen of different focal lengths, and so on, and with equally great end result. With zoom you can get the first one that pops in your head, immediately, without realization that there are other choices/compositions. With a single prime you have to figure which one would work the best. And often, as a result of thinking, at least speaking strictly for myself, it is possible to find a better, or, more interesting aspect. And as I said, again, from my experience, the number of truly missed shots is usually negligeable, if you do some thinking before pushing the button. > From: LEDMRVM > Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 08:19:30 -0700 > > -- > > "Oh, damn! I can't get the framing I want with my prime lens, so the > shot isn't worth having." Nonsense. > > Ed Matthew LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Everyone is different. There is no right and wrong. The quality of a fixed focal length lens is, in 95 per cent of the times, better than the quality of a zoom. Does it matter? Not if you are making prints 8X10 or less or if you are printing out on a inkjet or using a cheap photo lab. There are good reasons for using both zooms and fixed focal length. Why carry around a big, heavy 28-100 zoom if you can carry an elegant 28mm and a 100mm f2.8. Your end result will be better, your load lighter and ... Saying this, I have many zooms that I use often and enjoy very much. They include: 28-105, 75-150 70-210 100-300 Sometimes I take one or two zooms to photograph a particular subject. If buying zooms, however, get the best you can to maximize quality. P.S. that does not mean the most expoensive... - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Vs: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
I agree for slide shows but not the printed page. After all that's just a scan that is then cropped to fit the page just as a negative would be. Christian On Monday 13 May 2002 12:28, you wrote: > Framing - it is not as easy to crop a slide as a print - can be done, of > course. If you only make prints from slides, it´s no difference but for > slide shows and preparation for the printed page it is. All the best! > Raimo - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Vs: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Framing - it is not as easy to crop a slide as a print - can be done, of course. If you only make prints from slides, it´s no difference but for slide shows and preparation for the printed page it is. All the best! Raimo Personal photography homepage at http://www.uusikaupunki.fi/~raikorho -Alkuperäinen viesti- Lähettäjä: Christian Skofteland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Vastaanottaja: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Päivä: 13. toukokuuta 2002 16:07 Aihe: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student >On Monday 13 May 2002 09:24, Lukasz Kacperczyk wrote: >>IMO zooms are only useful when there's >> no time to change lenses, or move around, and while shooting >> transparencies. >> Lukasz > >Please explain. How are zooms more useful for shooting transparencies? What >has film type got to do with lenses or focal lengths?? > >Christian - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
In a message dated 5/13/2002 10:03:27 AM US Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > In the end, I think zooms are great for people who are trying to figure > out whether photography is worth doing at all. But once you are after > that stage, it's just another annoyance -- extra weight to carry, extra > compromises to cope with and not much use if you think about it. > No. They are simply not much use when you think about it. There are times/places when I get as far as I can with my feet - then I use the zoom for the final precise framing. Primes are fine - I use them as often as I can. Your regard for zooms as an 'annoyance' is your prerogative, but your regard does not make them an annoyance for everyone. "Oh, damn! I can't get the framing I want with my prime lens, so the shot isn't worth having." Nonsense. Ed Matthew - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Cause you don't exactly crop transparencies, and zooms allow one to leave out unwanted objects in situations when otherwise it would be impossible. I have nothing against zoom lenses, and don't think they're limiting in any way unless they are used to learn the basics of composition (and I guess the original post was about exactly this). Still, it's my opinion I'm entitled to have, and I don't deny you the right to think it's crap ;) Regards, Lukasz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Christian Skofteland Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 3:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student On Monday 13 May 2002 09:24, Lukasz Kacperczyk wrote: >IMO zooms are only useful when there's > no time to change lenses, or move around, and while shooting > transparencies. > Lukasz Please explain. How are zooms more useful for shooting transparencies? What has film type got to do with lenses or focal lengths?? For the record I shoot 99% transparencies and use primes exclusively because I like them better not because I am less "lazy" than someone who uses zooms. Zoom lenses have their place as do primes. For the record, I use my zooms when I use print film (B&W). This whole argument about discipline and creative processes based on lens type used is crap especially when punctuated with comments such as the one quoted above. Christian - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
I cannot believe I am writing another prime vs zoom... Still, I am just back from vacation and have my 2c ready. I think one important aspect of primes is underrated: convenience. For this week I had in my bag a 24, a 50 and a 135 lenses. The final result was that I took a half dozen pics with 24mm, a half dozen with 135mm, and the rest of 5 rolls with 50mm. I had to swap the lenses only 3-4 times, and those were moments when I *had to* -- there's no way to take any sensible pic with the normal lens. And the 1 smal lens + 1 small body setup is godsent when you have to carry it on your shoulder from 8 am to 1 am day after day and shoot in busy places in a moderately friendly city! I think the single strongest attraction to zooms is that people feel that otherwise, having only 1 normal lens, they would miss a lot of shots. This can be true or false, depending how you look at it. Speaking for myself, I have realized one day that I cannot take *every* shot, no matter what lenses I have. It is physically impossible. The trick is to get the best out of what you have. And this is where the fun is, since you have to turn your brain on. In the end it turns out that the percentage of trully missed opportunities is tiny and most of shots can be taken with almost any sensible lens if you give it a little thought (of course, street photography with 500mm tele is probably as inconvenient as shooting birds with 20mm wide angle, but I am not talking about extremes here). In the end, I think zooms are great for people who are trying to figure out whether photography is worth doing at all. But once you are after that stage, it's just another annoyance -- extra weight to carry, extra compromises to cope with and not much use if you think about it. LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
I make prints all the time of my photos. When I print my transparencies I crop them to fit frame formats or to further enhance the composition just as I do with print film (I don't always crop them though). I don't use transparency film to do slide shows. I use it because I prefer its properties to that of color print film. I still don't understand what lens type has to do with film choice. Christian On Monday 13 May 2002 10:27, you wrote: > Cause you don't exactly crop transparencies, and zooms allow one to leave > out unwanted objects in situations when otherwise it would be impossible. > Regards, > Lukasz - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Tom, I can only speak for myself, and that's exactly what i din in my post. I guess the choice of words obscured what I *really* meant. That's why I started with the words "my experience". Lukasz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of tom Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 3:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Lukasz Kacperczyk > > When I sold the MZ-30 and bought a MX with a > 50mm, I got back > to the times of the Roleiflex, when one had to actually > move to change > perspective, which resulted in better pictures - IMO zooms > make people lazy. Hmm. A zoom lens made *you* lazy, therefore zooms make people lazy. Whatever. tv - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
- Original Message - From: Christian Skofteland Subject: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > > This whole argument about discipline and creative processes based on lens > type used is crap.. Whatever. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
- Original Message - From: tom Subject: RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > > > > When I sold the MZ-30 and bought a MX with a > > 50mm, I got back > > to the times of the Roleiflex, when one had to actually > > move to change > > perspective, which resulted in better pictures - IMO zooms > > make people lazy. > > Hmm. A zoom lens made *you* lazy, therefore zooms make people lazy. > > Whatever. I've seen it happen more often than not. Some people are better disciplined than others. Most will take the easy way, which is not necessarily the right way. Some turn pro, figure they know it all, and get dismissive about the learning curve that they went through themselves. Whatever. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
On Monday 13 May 2002 09:24, Lukasz Kacperczyk wrote: >IMO zooms are only useful when there's > no time to change lenses, or move around, and while shooting > transparencies. > Lukasz Please explain. How are zooms more useful for shooting transparencies? What has film type got to do with lenses or focal lengths?? For the record I shoot 99% transparencies and use primes exclusively because I like them better not because I am less "lazy" than someone who uses zooms. Zoom lenses have their place as do primes. For the record, I use my zooms when I use print film (B&W). This whole argument about discipline and creative processes based on lens type used is crap especially when punctuated with comments such as the one quoted above. Christian - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re[2]: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
For me, I find that zooms tend to help me to take good snapshots. Primes tend to make me think more about what I am trying to do. Along the same lines as an earlier discussion about how Medium Format forces one to think a bit more about the shot due to 10 frames per roll. Primes tend to make me think more about the focal length I really want to work with because changing lenses is much slower than zooming. Another way to put it is that with a prime, I tend to try to "create" the picture and with a zoom I tend to "record" what I am seeing. Each has their place and I use zooms when I am taking snapshots. When I am try to create a serious picture, I use a prime. Bruce Dayton Sunday, May 12, 2002, 11:16:49 PM, you wrote: BR> Brian, BR> The bottom line is "what works best for the individual" and the BR> photography they do. BR> For me, I had used primes only from 1968 until 89 (with the exception of BR> a Vivitar zoom I bought in 71 and returned the following day). In 1989, I BR> bought my first AF camera and zooms - feeling that the optical quality had BR> improved. That lasted until 1999 when, by chance, I drug our my old BR> Spotmatic and a few lenses for a comparison shoot to see how far optics had BR> advanced in 30 years. The AF gear was sold to fund a LX and I have been BR> happier ever since. What the primes did was to remind me of how to see BR> again. BR> Again, this is personal and many may have only learned photography with BR> the latest AF cameras and Lenses. The trend can always be noted every time BR> one pops into a camera store. BR> Bob BR> - Original Message - BR> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> BR> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> BR> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 3:07 PM BR> Subject: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For BR> Student >> In <003001c1fa36$8a17ad30$1502a8c0@rappr>, on 05/13/02 >>at 02:26 PM, Bob Rapp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >> >> |>Your legs are "painted on" and don't want to walk closer. >> >> I really have an hard time understanding how this canard got started >> much less gets repeated. Walking is not the same as zooming. >> Perspective changes, subjects escape, proximity offends, bridges and >> sheer drops do not permit getting closer even if they were equivalent. >> >> >> >> |>As a stop-gap until you can afford primes. >> >> sure lets shoot that scene off the end of the dock with an 85mm prime >> then switch to a 150 for a detail and then switch to that 300 for >> another more distant detail. Primes have advantages but stacking them >> up as a replacement for a zoom is not among them just as zooms have >> their very real place in the tool kit but an f3.5 zoom at 50mm is no >> replacement for an f1.4 50mm. >> >> differing philosophies but more agree with you than with me. >> >> >> Bran >> >> -- >> --- >> Any Discordian is expressedly forbidden to believe what she reads. >> -Discordian Catma >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> --- >> - >> This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, >> go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to >> visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . BR> - BR> This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, BR> go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to BR> visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Brian, The bottom line is "what works best for the individual" and the photography they do. For me, I had used primes only from 1968 until 89 (with the exception of a Vivitar zoom I bought in 71 and returned the following day). In 1989, I bought my first AF camera and zooms - feeling that the optical quality had improved. That lasted until 1999 when, by chance, I drug our my old Spotmatic and a few lenses for a comparison shoot to see how far optics had advanced in 30 years. The AF gear was sold to fund a LX and I have been happier ever since. What the primes did was to remind me of how to see again. Again, this is personal and many may have only learned photography with the latest AF cameras and Lenses. The trend can always be noted every time one pops into a camera store. Bob - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 3:07 PM Subject: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > In <003001c1fa36$8a17ad30$1502a8c0@rappr>, on 05/13/02 >at 02:26 PM, Bob Rapp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > |>Your legs are "painted on" and don't want to walk closer. > > I really have an hard time understanding how this canard got started > much less gets repeated. Walking is not the same as zooming. > Perspective changes, subjects escape, proximity offends, bridges and > sheer drops do not permit getting closer even if they were equivalent. > > > > |>As a stop-gap until you can afford primes. > > sure lets shoot that scene off the end of the dock with an 85mm prime > then switch to a 150 for a detail and then switch to that 300 for > another more distant detail. Primes have advantages but stacking them > up as a replacement for a zoom is not among them just as zooms have > their very real place in the tool kit but an f3.5 zoom at 50mm is no > replacement for an f1.4 50mm. > > differing philosophies but more agree with you than with me. > > > Bran > > -- > --- > Any Discordian is expressedly forbidden to believe what she reads. > -Discordian Catma > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > --- > - > This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, > go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to > visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
In <003001c1fa36$8a17ad30$1502a8c0@rappr>, on 05/13/02 at 02:26 PM, Bob Rapp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: |>Your legs are "painted on" and don't want to walk closer. I really have an hard time understanding how this canard got started much less gets repeated. Walking is not the same as zooming. Perspective changes, subjects escape, proximity offends, bridges and sheer drops do not permit getting closer even if they were equivalent. |>As a stop-gap until you can afford primes. sure lets shoot that scene off the end of the dock with an 85mm prime then switch to a 150 for a detail and then switch to that 300 for another more distant detail. Primes have advantages but stacking them up as a replacement for a zoom is not among them just as zooms have their very real place in the tool kit but an f3.5 zoom at 50mm is no replacement for an f1.4 50mm. differing philosophies but more agree with you than with me. Bran -- --- Any Discordian is expressedly forbidden to believe what she reads. -Discordian Catma [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
- Original Message - From: Stan Halpin Subject: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > > But seriously, leaving aside the four puns on the proceeding line, and back > on the topic of visual discipline: I wonder why one would want to > discipline one's own or another's vision? Shouldn't we all, and especially > students, be trying to break free of external arbitrary disciplines and > learn our own way of seeing? I think the essential question is not whether > zooms can be used to teach visual discipline, but whether zooms can help a > beginner, or a pro, to see old things in new ways. Lasse says it worked for > him . . . I believe there is a photographic equivalent of music theory that the student needs to learn, in order to excel at the art and craft of photography. Visual theory at it's most basic is the building blocks of imagery, whether photographic or other. Theory such as how light interacts with shape and form, how perspective changes depending on angle of view. This is best learned with simple tools, anything else complicates the learning process. If one is learning to compose music, one starts with a single instrument, such as a piano. I think it very rare for a student of music composition to start by composing a full orchestral symphony. I played the trumpet when I was younger. A simple instrument, with only 3 keys. In a way, perhaps there is an equivalency here, as a camera only has 3 controls for making pictures, no matter how many buttons, control dials, and inscrutable custom functions they put on the camera to complicate things for us. But, I digress. I never got really good at the trumpet, in my hands the instrument had all the positive attributes of a chainsaw with a burned out governor. I learned enough about music to realize I would never be a Sousa, or an Armstrong. Hell, when I figured out I would never be an Alpert, I gave up the trumpet. I found other fish to fry. I discovered cameras. I also discovered that much of what I learned from music was applicable to photography at one level or another. I may have a tin ear, but I found I have a pretty good eye for pictures. What I learned playing the trumpet, albeit badly, was that there is a need to learn the basics. One needs to learn scales, and finger patterns on the keys to make the notes come out the way they are supposed to. One needs to learn how to blow into the instrument in the right way to make the right noise. One needs to learn that when giving a Christmas concert outdoors when it is -30, the mouthpiece should be kept in an inside pocket to keep it warm between songs. Some lessons are learned harder than others. One needs to have a thick skin to not be overly discouraged by failure, or the embarrassment of having a trumpet stuck to ones face in front of the Prime Minister. But, I digress. In photography, one needs to learn about light and shadow first. One doesn't need a zoom lens for this. Often, the added visual confusion that a zoom can create can interrupt this learning process. I am not saying there is not a place for zoom lenses in photography. The zoom, in the hands of a skilled and visually adept person is a powerful tool. All I am saying is that it is not the tool to learn the very basics of visual theory with. For this, a prime lens, and one that closely matches the human eye's field of vision is preferable. By sticking with a "natural" perspective to start, we can learn more easily how what we see in three dimensions will translate to two, or how what we see in colour will translate to black and white. By learning the fundaments first, with simple tools, I think we will be better visual artists later. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
- Original Message - From: TM Subject: RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > William- > IMHO, we are all students of photography, regardless of our skill level, > as > one can always learn something and no one is perfect. :-) Brain surgery is the same way. At some point, we say they know enough and release them into hospitals to ply their trade. By this point, hopefully they are no longer using the NHL method. > > My counterpoint to your point is that someone who is starting out in > photography > may not stick with it if it is too difficult to get the shots that > he/she desires. Tough. If they stick it out they will be better photographers. A lot of people drop out of med school because they find it too difficult. Would you trust one of them in a surgical ward if they were just handed a degree to keep their precious little egos from being bruised by failure? Boy, I am sure being puckish today aren't I? William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
For me, zooms can be a useful or a useless tool. A zoom may be useful if: You only want to carry one lens. Your legs are "painted on" and don't want to walk closer. Used only after you have examined all the angles and points of view and then use the lens to crop your vision. (most useful) As a stop-gap until you can afford primes. For students, I recommend using a zoom only after they have learned to use fixed focal lengths. Or, say to them selves, "I going to learn what my zoom will do at 50 or 70 or 28 or 35 today". That way they can fully learn perspective. I used zooms for about 7 years and now they are in a closet. I prefer my latest 30, a 50 and a 105 for general photography. Bob - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Ah- You got me, Shel- you're absolutely right, although sometimes you just have to settle for what you can get, given the limitations of shooting in a crowded environment. Obviously, knowledge of proper technique will allow one to instinctively compose better photographs on the fly. :-) Feeling rather stupid, Taka - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
> From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > > . . .most photographers these days are not > photographers. Often, they are trying to do brain surgery with a hockey > stick. > William Robb I definitely agree that we should leave brain surgery with a hockey stick to the NHL players (sic). Let photographers focus on fixing negatives. But seriously, leaving aside the four puns on the proceeding line, and back on the topic of visual discipline: I wonder why one would want to discipline one's own or another's vision? Shouldn't we all, and especially students, be trying to break free of external arbitrary disciplines and learn our own way of seeing? I think the essential question is not whether zooms can be used to teach visual discipline, but whether zooms can help a beginner, or a pro, to see old things in new ways. Lasse says it worked for him . . . Stan - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
I've been following this thread with great interest. The old fart in me (I'm not that old, but sometimes I think like an old fart anyway!) agrees with the "primes are better for students" argument. For me, it falls apart when you consider that the same argument against zooms can be used to say that having more than one prime is bad. What's a zoom any more than a multi-focal-length lens? If zooms can make you lazy when composing, then why ever use more than one focal length lens? Seems to me that most students or beginners have limited financial resources. The reality is that zooms are a cost-effective way of covering pretty much all normally requred situations for a minimum of cost. With a (say) 28-70 and a 70-210, many photographers will have coverage for most if not all of their needs. What's needed is for that student or beginner to be taught (or teach themselves) how to compose properly, and not use those zooms as a crutch or replacement for proper composition technique. Now if one will argue in favour of primes due to sharpness or speed, that's another issue altogether... And, finally, I have to agree with Taka. Aren't we all students? I know I feel like one, most of the time! regards, frank TM wrote: > William- > IMHO, we are all students of photography, regardless of our skill level, > as > one can always learn something and no one is perfect. :-) > -- "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
ROTF,LMAO ... Taka, what is photography without some creative interpretation of the subject? What you've described is like the difference between a mug shot and a portrait. Photos of cars can be greatly improved by creative techniques such as angle of view, focal length of lens, lighting, time of day, etc. Just zooming in and out will get a nice snapshot, but thinking a bit beforehand, complimenting the lines and the shape of the car with the proper focal length, DOF, perspective, and the like can take an ordinary, and often bland, picture and turn it into a wonderful photograph. You're absolutely right, though ... if all you want is a snapshot, any old zoom will do that allows you to frame the car. TM wrote: > I guess it really comes down to what > you want to do with the photographic skills > you learn- I'm not trying to be creative, > I just want to get the shot. If you want to > learn the creative and artistic side, obviously, > your approach is much better. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/ "When a man's best friend is his dog, that dog has a problem." --Edward Abbey - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
William- IMHO, we are all students of photography, regardless of our skill level, as one can always learn something and no one is perfect. :-) My counterpoint to your point is that someone who is starting out in photography may not stick with it if it is too difficult to get the shots that he/she desires. When you're shooting stuff like cars at car shows like myself, zooms are extremely useful in getting the composition right, so one can exclude other spectators from the frame, for instance. It's not like I can force everyone to step back a few feet just for my sake- people get offended (God knows why!) when I ask them to not walk in front of me for a few seconds so I can take a few shots. For practical reasons, I have purchased a motor drive for my camera as well, as I do not have auto-bracketing features on my Super A, which I wouldn't mind having and using in situations when I need to take the shot quickly and get out of the way and want to still get a nicely exposed shot. I guess it really comes down to what you want to do with the photographic skills you learn- I'm not trying to be creative, I just want to get the shot. If you want to learn the creative and artistic side, obviously, your approach is much better. Taka -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 8:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student [snip] Sure, no problem, whatever works for you. But if you have a fixed lens, you may have to be a bit more creative in selecting your vantage point. The idea of being a student of photography should be to find creative ways to get a good picture, not to take the cheap and dirty way out. Prime lenses force more creative thinking on the student by imposing one field of view. This creative process will serve the student well, no matter what lenses are chosen down the road. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
- Original Message - From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > > From my archive of PDML quotations: > > "The photographer's lack of discipline is independent of the camera." > - Pål Jensen Good quote, and completely irrelevant to the topic. I teach dog obedience. Is the dog's lack of discipline independant of the handler? Dicipline needs to be learned. A student of photography is not a photographer. For that matter, most photographers these days are not photographers. Often, they are trying to do brain surgery with a hockey stick. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
- Original Message - From: TM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 10:29 AM Subject: RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student > Sorry for the newbie question, but what is "visual discipline?" Please remember, I was speaking in the context of the original thread, which was relating to students of photography. > > I don't really understand the need to learn photography w/ one > fixed-focus > lens, like a 50mm. Is this so that you can better learn composition? > Wouldn't the selection of focal length be part of the composition > process? Zooms can actually have exactly the opposite effect on composition, by adding another group of variables to the compositional equation. In theory, there is probably nothing wrong with using a zoom to learn the fundaments of photography, the same way there is probably nothing wrong with using an auto everything camera set on manual everything. In practice, however, people will tend to take shortcuts. Why learn about exposure when the automatic camera makes it so easy for me? Why learn about working for good composition when the zoom lens makes it so much easier to just stand in one spot and pretend I am composing? > > I'm not interested in creating any works of art, just want to be able to > take nice photographs of my subjects and a zoom is very useful in that > one > can choose a vantage point and select focal length to appropriately > frame > the photographed subject, maybe more of a journalistic bent rather than > artistic, if that is an appropriate characterization. Sure, no problem, whatever works for you. But if you have a fixed lens, you may have to be a bit more creative in selecting your vantage point. The idea of being a student of photography should be to find creative ways to get a good picture, not to take the cheap and dirty way out. Prime lenses force more creative thinking on the student by imposing one field of view. This creative process will serve the student well, no matter what lenses are chosen down the road. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
I wrote: > Bill Owens wrote: > > > How come no one has suggested a 70-210 zoom? They can often > > be had for > > > $100.00 or less, even a Vivitar Series 1. > > William Robb wrote: > > Zooms don't teach visual discipline. > > I disagree. I think they do exactly that. > (You've got to learn in which direction to turn the zooming ring > first, though...:) ) > > Lasse Boy, is this pathetic, or not, responding to one's own messages... However, since Sask Bill obviously is too content this Sunday to pick up on my bait, I guess I will have to expand a little, without provocation, on this old issue on whether zooms are essentially good for "learning to see" (or in whatever way you want to phrase the question). My impression was that a majority(?) of those expressing an opinion in earlier discussions agreed that zooms were bad in that they'd promote some sort of visual sloppiness, or something similar. I guess it mainly depends on who you are, and mostly on what type of shooting you do (like in different forks for different folks, or how the saying goes). However, personally I distinctly remember how getting hold of a zoom lens actually triggered a whole new way and awareness regarding framing and composition, that shooting with just one fixed lens for some reason had inhibited me from. I couldn't seem to stop zooming in and out, looking at different subjects at different focal lengths (of the zoom) etc. It also seems, that when now approaching a scene with a zoom, judging what focal length to use comes so automatically or instinctively that I am often not aware of even having thought about it until I've shot the picture. My feeling is too, that using zoom lenses, in my kind of shooting, simply gives me a greatly higher number of good or desired shots, than when I'm stuck with just one fixed lens, where I often find myself thinking - Oh well, another shot missed. (Speaking, of course, about scenes that cannot be recreated.) Having said this, I still at times very much enjoy shooting with a fixed focal length too, although I am exactly sure why, really... But honestly - "discipline"? And a visual one at that? Doesn't sound much fun at all... :) (But o.k., I don't need to put that much into it.) Lasse - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
> Bill Owens wrote: > > > How come no one has suggested a 70-210 zoom? They can often > > be had for > > > $100.00 or less, even a Vivitar Series 1. > > William Robb wrote: > > Zooms don't teach visual discipline. > > I disagree. I think they do exactly that. > (You've got to learn in which direction to turn the zooming ring > first, though...:) ) > > Lasse > > (Btw. Is it always in spring this discussion comes up, > or is it every summer, winter and fall/autumn too... :) ) TM wrote, obviously regarding the above discussion: > Sorry for the newbie question, but what is "visual discipline?" I don't know either really, and I'm not even a newbie. I just don't like the sound of it, why I thought I'd better disagree with it right away before it gets too far... :) > I don't really understand the need to learn photography w/ one > fixed-focus > lens, like a 50mm. Neither do I. > Is this so that you can better learn composition? Don't know. > Wouldn't the selection of focal length be part of the composition > process? I guess it would. > I'm not interested in creating any works of art, just want to be able to > take nice photographs of my subjects and a zoom is very useful in that > one > can choose a vantage point and select focal length to appropriately > frame > the photographed subject, That's roughly my way too. > maybe more of a journalistic bent rather than > artistic, if that is an appropriate characterization. Well, artistic or journalistic - as far as zooms go, what difference does it make?. (I think I know what you mean though.) Lasse - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
"Lasse Karlsson" wrote: >Bill Owens wrote: >> > How come no one has suggested a 70-210 zoom? They can often >> be had for >> > $100.00 or less, even a Vivitar Series 1. > >William Robb wrote: >> Zooms don't teach visual discipline. > >I disagree. I think they do exactly that. >(You've got to learn in which direction to turn the zooming ring >first, though...:) ) >From my archive of PDML quotations: "The photographer's lack of discipline is independent of the camera." - Pål Jensen -- Mark Roberts www.robertstech.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Sorry for the newbie question, but what is "visual discipline?" I don't really understand the need to learn photography w/ one fixed-focus lens, like a 50mm. Is this so that you can better learn composition? Wouldn't the selection of focal length be part of the composition process? I'm not interested in creating any works of art, just want to be able to take nice photographs of my subjects and a zoom is very useful in that one can choose a vantage point and select focal length to appropriately frame the photographed subject, maybe more of a journalistic bent rather than artistic, if that is an appropriate characterization. Taka - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Do zooms teach visual discipline? Was: Advice Needed For Student
Bill Owens wrote: > > How come no one has suggested a 70-210 zoom? They can often > be had for > > $100.00 or less, even a Vivitar Series 1. William Robb wrote: > Zooms don't teach visual discipline. I disagree. I think they do exactly that. (You've got to learn in which direction to turn the zooming ring first, though...:) ) Lasse (Btw. Is it always in spring this discussion comes up, or is it every summer, winter and fall/autumn too... :) ) - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
