Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[graywolf]

I think you are a half century late there, Peter. Once again you are arguing 
with someone who is basically agreeing with you. You seem to do that a lot 
lately. 2:3 predates film by several decades.


P. J. Alling wrote:
> 120 Roll film was invented by Kodak in the late 1890's You should look 
> at the formats most of those old folders which took 120 film..2 1/4 x 3 
> 1/4 on 120 size was quite common. I can point to a few examples the 
> Kodak Autographic and early Folding Brownies between 1919-1929, the 
> actual image size is ~56mm x ~84mm, (with some incidental variation), 
> which reduces nicely down to 2x3 or 6x9.
> 
> graywolf wrote:
>> 2-1/2 x 3-1/2 was a quarter 5x7 plate just as 3-1/4 x 4-1/4  was a quarter 
>> 6-1/2 
>> x 8-1/2 plate and 4x5 was a quarter 8x10 plate. Those were the 2:3, 3:4, and 
>> 4:5 
>> ratios that are still pretty much standard today and go back to the early 
>> days 
>> of photography when those full plate sizes were the standard size pieces of 
>> glass that were available.
>>
>>
>> P. J. Alling wrote:
>>   
>>> Heck, I've finally learned to compose for the 35mm frame, and unlike 
>>> some people I know the 6x9 format well predates the popularity of 35mm 
>>> double frame cameras.
>>>
>>> John Sessoms wrote:
>>> 
 From: Toralf Lund

   
   
> graywolf wrote:
> 
> 
>> Or something like a 24x30 or 24x32 frame?
>>   
>>   
>>   
> Or 24x28, even?
>
> Yes, a change of aspect ratio would be interesting. I wonder what the 
> reaction would be... 
> 
> 
 Stunned horror followed by extreme outrage.

   
   
>>> 
>>   
> 
> 

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[John Sessoms]

From: "P. J. Alling"

> What is e-Bay if not the ultimate garage sale? 

I think you left the letter "B" out of there somewhere ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYokLWfqbaU

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

2:3 = 6:9 which I believe makes my point.

graywolf wrote:
> 2-1/2 x 3-1/2 was a quarter 5x7 plate just as 3-1/4 x 4-1/4  was a quarter 
> 6-1/2 
> x 8-1/2 plate and 4x5 was a quarter 8x10 plate. Those were the 2:3, 3:4, and 
> 4:5 
> ratios that are still pretty much standard today and go back to the early 
> days 
> of photography when those full plate sizes were the standard size pieces of 
> glass that were available.
>
>
> P. J. Alling wrote:
>   
>> Heck, I've finally learned to compose for the 35mm frame, and unlike 
>> some people I know the 6x9 format well predates the popularity of 35mm 
>> double frame cameras.
>>
>> John Sessoms wrote:
>> 
>>> From: Toralf Lund
>>>
>>>   
>>>   
 graywolf wrote:
 
 
> Or something like a 24x30 or 24x32 frame?
>   
>   
>   
 Or 24x28, even?

 Yes, a change of aspect ratio would be interesting. I wonder what the 
 reaction would be... 
 
 
>>> Stunned horror followed by extreme outrage.
>>>
>>>   
>>>   
>> 
>
>   


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

120 Roll film was invented by Kodak in the late 1890's You should look 
at the formats most of those old folders which took 120 film..2 1/4 x 3 
1/4 on 120 size was quite common. I can point to a few examples the 
Kodak Autographic and early Folding Brownies between 1919-1929, the 
actual image size is ~56mm x ~84mm, (with some incidental variation), 
which reduces nicely down to 2x3 or 6x9.

graywolf wrote:
> 2-1/2 x 3-1/2 was a quarter 5x7 plate just as 3-1/4 x 4-1/4  was a quarter 
> 6-1/2 
> x 8-1/2 plate and 4x5 was a quarter 8x10 plate. Those were the 2:3, 3:4, and 
> 4:5 
> ratios that are still pretty much standard today and go back to the early 
> days 
> of photography when those full plate sizes were the standard size pieces of 
> glass that were available.
>
>
> P. J. Alling wrote:
>   
>> Heck, I've finally learned to compose for the 35mm frame, and unlike 
>> some people I know the 6x9 format well predates the popularity of 35mm 
>> double frame cameras.
>>
>> John Sessoms wrote:
>> 
>>> From: Toralf Lund
>>>
>>>   
>>>   
 graywolf wrote:
 
 
> Or something like a 24x30 or 24x32 frame?
>   
>   
>   
 Or 24x28, even?

 Yes, a change of aspect ratio would be interesting. I wonder what the 
 reaction would be... 
 
 
>>> Stunned horror followed by extreme outrage.
>>>
>>>   
>>>   
>> 
>
>   


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[graywolf]

You mean one of these?

http://www.graywolfphoto.com/digital/_images/TO-Y600.jpg

Sorry there are no transistors in there. However there are ten 9 volt 
transistor 
batteries in that one, plus 6 D cells. The clock radio is a fairly large one. 
It 
has no transistors either, just one IC.



P. J. Alling wrote:

> Open up a 1950's transistor radio.

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[graywolf]

2-1/2 x 3-1/2 was a quarter 5x7 plate just as 3-1/4 x 4-1/4  was a quarter 
6-1/2 
x 8-1/2 plate and 4x5 was a quarter 8x10 plate. Those were the 2:3, 3:4, and 
4:5 
ratios that are still pretty much standard today and go back to the early days 
of photography when those full plate sizes were the standard size pieces of 
glass that were available.


P. J. Alling wrote:
> Heck, I've finally learned to compose for the 35mm frame, and unlike 
> some people I know the 6x9 format well predates the popularity of 35mm 
> double frame cameras.
> 
> John Sessoms wrote:
>> From: Toralf Lund
>>
>>   
>>> graywolf wrote:
>>> 
 Or something like a 24x30 or 24x32 frame?
   
   
>>> Or 24x28, even?
>>>
>>> Yes, a change of aspect ratio would be interesting. I wonder what the 
>>> reaction would be... 
>>> 
>> Stunned horror followed by extreme outrage.
>>
>>   
> 
> 

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Paul Stenquist]

Bob,
You've gotta get off the crank! :-))
Paul
On Oct 22, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Bob Blakely wrote:

> If I can't capture a hockey game with players clothed in black and  
> played by
> candle light, the glass is NOT fast enough and the ISO is NOT high  
> enough!
>
> If I can't capture a timber wolf racing through a dense forest by  
> starlight,
> the glass is NOT fast enough and the ISO is NOT high enough!
>
> If I can't capture a Blackbird at low altitude at mach 1+ at 1:00  
> AM on a
> moonless night, the glass is NOT fast enough and the ISO is NOT  
> high enough!
>
> I don't do any of these things, but God damn it, I want fst  
> glass and
> hgh ISO! Period. Er... Exclaimation point!
>
> "I feel the need, the need for speed!!!"
>
> Regards,
> Bob...
> 
> "Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a  
> reflection."
>   -Jean Luc Godard
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Mark Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>> But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of  
>> people
>> who don't really need it.
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Bob Blakely]

If I can't capture a hockey game with players clothed in black and played by 
candle light, the glass is NOT fast enough and the ISO is NOT high enough!

If I can't capture a timber wolf racing through a dense forest by starlight, 
the glass is NOT fast enough and the ISO is NOT high enough!

If I can't capture a Blackbird at low altitude at mach 1+ at 1:00 AM on a 
moonless night, the glass is NOT fast enough and the ISO is NOT high enough!

I don't do any of these things, but God damn it, I want fst glass and 
hgh ISO! Period. Er... Exclaimation point!

"I feel the need, the need for speed!!!"

Regards,
Bob...

"Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection."
  -Jean Luc Godard

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


> But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of people
> who don't really need it.


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

When I work with my Minox subminiature cameras, ISO 100 is high ISO...

I have the K10D set to Auto ISO with the range constrained to 100-400  
most of the time. Differences in performance are near to invisible in  
that range. I go to 800, and very rarely to 1600, when I need more  
sensitivity. Those are high ISO settings, and I have the camera set  
to display the ISO warning when I'm there as they cost in dynamic  
range and image quality.

Godfrey


On Oct 22, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Tom C wrote:

> It seems we may be dancing around the term high ISO.  How do you  
> define it?
>
> With film I thought 400 was sometimes getting into high ISO  
> territory.  With
> DSLR's I consider high ISO to be 1600 and above.  More or less,  
> when I can
> see image degradation without magnification.


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Jack Davis]

NEVER, perhaps uniquely with me. Didn't ever care for the 'stark,
gritty, under belly of life' genre.
S'pose that could make me less than complete. ;)

Jack
--- Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Anyone who shoots indoor events, including weddings, can benefit from
>  
> good high ISO performance. And even family pics and portraits are  
> much nicer in available light. I think high ISO performance is a good
>  
> plus for most photographers. That being said I'm far less offended by
>  
> noise and/or grain than most. I've seen many comments here -- "too  
> bad it's noisy" -- that really surprised me. Frequently, the noise is
>  
> minimal. Remember when grain was cool? Last year I think.:-)
> Paul
> On Oct 22, 2007, at 12:59 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:
> 
> > Tom C wrote:
> >
> >> Most of you guys are missing my point, or maybe I'm not
> >> acknowledging that I get yours.
> >>
> >> I'm just trying to say that high ISO quality seems to viewed as a
> >> holy grail in digital photography, and my perception, right,
> wrong,
> >
> > I think you're exactly right, Tom.
> >
> > Sure there are a few who really need high ISO performance: sports
> pros
> > often shoot football games with a 600/4 and 2x teleconverter under
> > stadium lighting at night. Closed down 1 f-stop to recover some
> > sharpness, they're at f/11 and shooting fast action.
> >
> > But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of
> people
> > who don't really need it.
> >
> > Of course, if it sells cameras then the camera makers have to go
> for
> > it...
> >
> >
> > -- 
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

I agree.  For me frame rate is relatively unimportant compared to buffer 
size and throughput.


Tom C.

>From: Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:46:46 -0400
>
>Bill Owens wrote:
> > I think you're exactly right, Tom.
> >
> > Sure there are a few who really need high ISO performance: sports pros
> > often shoot football games with a 600/4 and 2x teleconverter under
> > stadium lighting at night. Closed down 1 f-stop to recover some
> > sharpness, they're at f/11 and shooting fast action.
> >
> > But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of people
> > who don't really need it.
> >
> > Of course, if it sells cameras then the camera makers have to go for
> > it...
> >
> >
> > Don't forget the higher the frame rate the better cameras sell.  Another
> > useless feature for 99% of us.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
>
>The first thing I look for with high-fps cameras is 'does it have a slower 
>setting?'. I prefer to leave my camera set to continuous drive at 2.5-3fps. 
>Buffer size I care about a lot more, but even there I only really want 9-12 
>shots in the buffer (and that's more because I'll load up the buffer with a 
>group of shorter bursts than shooting long bursts).
>
>-Adam
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

It seems we may be dancing around the term high ISO.  How do you define it?

With film I thought 400 was sometimes getting into high ISO territory.  With 
DSLR's I consider high ISO to be 1600 and above.  More or less, when I can 
see image degradation without magnification.


Tom C.

>From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:28:56 -0400
>
>Anyone who shoots indoor events, including weddings, can benefit from
>good high ISO performance. And even family pics and portraits are
>much nicer in available light. I think high ISO performance is a good
>plus for most photographers. That being said I'm far less offended by
>noise and/or grain than most. I've seen many comments here -- "too
>bad it's noisy" -- that really surprised me. Frequently, the noise is
>minimal. Remember when grain was cool? Last year I think.:-)
>Paul
>On Oct 22, 2007, at 12:59 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:
>
> > Tom C wrote:
> >
> >> Most of you guys are missing my point, or maybe I'm not
> >> acknowledging that I get yours.
> >>
> >> I'm just trying to say that high ISO quality seems to viewed as a
> >> holy grail in digital photography, and my perception, right, wrong,
> >
> > I think you're exactly right, Tom.
> >
> > Sure there are a few who really need high ISO performance: sports pros
> > often shoot football games with a 600/4 and 2x teleconverter under
> > stadium lighting at night. Closed down 1 f-stop to recover some
> > sharpness, they're at f/11 and shooting fast action.
> >
> > But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of people
> > who don't really need it.
> >
> > Of course, if it sells cameras then the camera makers have to go for
> > it...
> >
> >
> > --
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> > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above
> > and follow the directions.
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RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Bill Owens]

I think you're exactly right, Tom.

Sure there are a few who really need high ISO performance: sports pros 
often shoot football games with a 600/4 and 2x teleconverter under 
stadium lighting at night. Closed down 1 f-stop to recover some 
sharpness, they're at f/11 and shooting fast action.

But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of people 
who don't really need it.

Of course, if it sells cameras then the camera makers have to go for 
it...


Don't forget the higher the frame rate the better cameras sell.  Another
useless feature for 99% of us.

Bill


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

Bill Owens wrote:
> I think you're exactly right, Tom.
> 
> Sure there are a few who really need high ISO performance: sports pros 
> often shoot football games with a 600/4 and 2x teleconverter under 
> stadium lighting at night. Closed down 1 f-stop to recover some 
> sharpness, they're at f/11 and shooting fast action.
> 
> But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of people 
> who don't really need it.
> 
> Of course, if it sells cameras then the camera makers have to go for 
> it...
> 
> 
> Don't forget the higher the frame rate the better cameras sell.  Another
> useless feature for 99% of us.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 

The first thing I look for with high-fps cameras is 'does it have a slower 
setting?'. I prefer to leave my camera set to continuous drive at 2.5-3fps. 
Buffer size I care about a lot more, but even there I only really want 9-12 
shots in the buffer (and that's more because I'll load up the buffer with a 
group of shorter bursts than shooting long bursts).

-Adam


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Mark Roberts wrote:

>But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of people
>who don't really need it.
>
>Of course, if it sells cameras then the camera makers have to go for
>it...

That's a big paradigm shift, huh?  It used to be the camera body was 
relatively unrelated to ISO performance and film (and of course the lens) 
was the factor.  Now the body itself has taken on a larger role.

If it was just as easy as plugging in different sensors!


Tom C.

>From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:59:15 -0400 (EDT)
>
>Tom C wrote:
>
> >Most of you guys are missing my point, or maybe I'm not
> >acknowledging that I get yours.
> >
> >I'm just trying to say that high ISO quality seems to viewed as a
> >holy grail in digital photography, and my perception, right, wrong,
>
>I think you're exactly right, Tom.
>
>Sure there are a few who really need high ISO performance: sports pros
>often shoot football games with a 600/4 and 2x teleconverter under
>stadium lighting at night. Closed down 1 f-stop to recover some
>sharpness, they're at f/11 and shooting fast action.
>
>But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of people
>who don't really need it.
>
>Of course, if it sells cameras then the camera makers have to go for
>it...
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Paul Stenquist]

Anyone who shoots indoor events, including weddings, can benefit from  
good high ISO performance. And even family pics and portraits are  
much nicer in available light. I think high ISO performance is a good  
plus for most photographers. That being said I'm far less offended by  
noise and/or grain than most. I've seen many comments here -- "too  
bad it's noisy" -- that really surprised me. Frequently, the noise is  
minimal. Remember when grain was cool? Last year I think.:-)
Paul
On Oct 22, 2007, at 12:59 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

> Tom C wrote:
>
>> Most of you guys are missing my point, or maybe I'm not
>> acknowledging that I get yours.
>>
>> I'm just trying to say that high ISO quality seems to viewed as a
>> holy grail in digital photography, and my perception, right, wrong,
>
> I think you're exactly right, Tom.
>
> Sure there are a few who really need high ISO performance: sports pros
> often shoot football games with a 600/4 and 2x teleconverter under
> stadium lighting at night. Closed down 1 f-stop to recover some
> sharpness, they're at f/11 and shooting fast action.
>
> But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of people
> who don't really need it.
>
> Of course, if it sells cameras then the camera makers have to go for
> it...
>
>
> -- 
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Mark Roberts]

Tom C wrote:

>Most of you guys are missing my point, or maybe I'm not 
>acknowledging that I get yours.
>
>I'm just trying to say that high ISO quality seems to viewed as a 
>holy grail in digital photography, and my perception, right, wrong,

I think you're exactly right, Tom.

Sure there are a few who really need high ISO performance: sports pros 
often shoot football games with a 600/4 and 2x teleconverter under 
stadium lighting at night. Closed down 1 f-stop to recover some 
sharpness, they're at f/11 and shooting fast action.

But high ISO performance has become the holy grail for a lot of people 
who don't really need it.

Of course, if it sells cameras then the camera makers have to go for 
it...


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

Agreed, and I'm one of those available darkness Tri-X heads. Even 3200 on the D 
and DS is better than film (I'd rate it similar to most films at 1600).

-Adam


P. J. Alling wrote:
> Tri-X heads shooting available light were always looking for more speed. 
> It was the content that counted not so much the quality. I find that 
> both the *ist-D and Ds give better results at 1600 than most any film 
> I've ever used. It's worth raving about.
> 
> Tom C wrote:
>> With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
>>
>> I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 ISO any 
>> day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO 
>> performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or higher 
>> with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot 
>> otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
>>
>> Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many times I was 
>> pushing 100 two stops to get 400.  When I needed more light gathering 
>> ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.
>>
>> I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of 
>> DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.
>>
>> Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave about?  
>> For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower ISO and a 
>> tripod.
>>
>> Tom C.
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>>> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
>>>
>>> Adam Maas wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>> Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO
>>>>   
>>> performance
>>> 
>>>> (it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).
>>>>   
>>> Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's
>>> been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate
>>> 
>> >from 1.7 fps to 3 fps, for example.
>>   
>>> Not that it has any bearing on Pentax, AFAIK.
>>>
>>> BTW:
>>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=25298198
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> follow the directions.
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>>
>>
>>   
> 
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

One reason why High ISO quality is such a hobbyhorse is that so many people are 
trying to achieve shots that need a fast prime with a slow (f4 or slower) zoom. 
You NEED good high ISO when you're stuck at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the guy next 
to you is shooting wide open with his 85/1.4 at ISO 800.

-Adam


Tom C wrote:
> Most of you guys are missing my point, or maybe I'm not acknowledging 
> that I get yours.
> 
> I'm just trying to say that high ISO quality seems to viewed as a holy 
> grail in digital photography, and my perception, right, wrong, or 
> skewed, is that with film photography it was generally accepted that you 
> were going to sacrifice image quality when shooting high ISO film to get 
> the shot. Of course the same happens with digital, the higher the ISO, 
> the noisier the image, or the heavier the noise reduction, losing detail.
> 
> My comments were that high ISO image quality suffers whether using film 
> or digital, so I wouldn't mind a FF DSLR with great low - mid ISO 
> performance and mediocre/poor high ISO performance, because... ta da! 
> :-) I expect mediocre/poor high ISO performance anyway. I have not shot 
> one image on the *ist D at 1600 ISO that I can say I'm really happy 
> with.  Even if it is a nice shot, I can see that it would have better 
> with a tripod and lower ISO.
> 
> I thoroughly understand that some kinds of photography and venues 
> dictate the use of high ISO.
> 
> Tom C.
> 
> 
>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:12:35 -0400
>>
>> Tri-X heads shooting available light were always looking for more speed.
>> It was the content that counted not so much the quality. I find that
>> both the *ist-D and Ds give better results at 1600 than most any film
>> I've ever used. It's worth raving about.
>>
>> Tom C wrote:
>> > With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
>> >
>> > I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 
>> ISO any
>> > day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO
>> > performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or 
>> higher
>> > with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot
>> > otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
>> >
>> > Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many 
>> times I was
>> > pushing 100 two stops to get 400.  When I needed more light gathering
>> > ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.
>> >
>> > I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of
>> > DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.
>> >
>> > Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave 
>> about?
>> > For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower 
>> ISO and a
>> > tripod.
>> >
>> > Tom C.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next 
>> camera(s)
>> >> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
>> >>
>> >> Adam Maas wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO
>> >>>
>> >> performance
>> >>
>> >>> (it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).
>> >>>
>> >> Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's
>> >> been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate
>> >>
>> > >from 1.7 fps to 3 fps, for example.
>> >
>> >> Not that it has any bearing on Pentax, AFAIK.
>> >>
>> >> BTW:
>> >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=25298198
>> >> ;-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> >> PDML@pdml.net
>> >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>> >> follow the directions.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>>
>>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

No I get your point. But Film quality has improved immensely in 100 
years. High ISO, or ASA or DIN was once in the 100 range. and very 
grainy. The bar keeps being raised. What is now unacceptable was at one 
time the norm. It seems to me that you're making the mistake of 
believing that "things have always been this way". Look at cameras built 
in the 40's compared to cameras of the 70s. Look under the hood of a 60s 
or 70s car or truck, compared to what's under the hood of one today. 
Open up a 1950's transistor radio. Then look inside a modern one of the 
same type, (if you can even find one that you can open without a dremmel 
tool). All these things have changed, in some cases beyond recognition. 
Is digital always better? Not always, but getting high ISO results equal 
to what was yesterday the best you could get with a low speed fine grain 
film has always been a goal.

Tom C wrote:
> Most of you guys are missing my point, or maybe I'm not acknowledging 
> that I get yours.
>
> I'm just trying to say that high ISO quality seems to viewed as a holy 
> grail in digital photography, and my perception, right, wrong, or 
> skewed, is that with film photography it was generally accepted that 
> you were going to sacrifice image quality when shooting high ISO film 
> to get the shot. Of course the same happens with digital, the higher 
> the ISO, the noisier the image, or the heavier the noise reduction, 
> losing detail.
>
> My comments were that high ISO image quality suffers whether using 
> film or digital, so I wouldn't mind a FF DSLR with great low - mid ISO 
> performance and mediocre/poor high ISO performance, because... ta da! 
> :-) I expect mediocre/poor high ISO performance anyway. I have not 
> shot one image on the *ist D at 1600 ISO that I can say I'm really 
> happy with. Even if it is a nice shot, I can see that it would have 
> better with a tripod and lower ISO.
>
> I thoroughly understand that some kinds of photography and venues 
> dictate the use of high ISO.
>
> Tom C.
>
>
>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next 
>> camera(s)
>> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:12:35 -0400
>>
>> Tri-X heads shooting available light were always looking for more speed.
>> It was the content that counted not so much the quality. I find that
>> both the *ist-D and Ds give better results at 1600 than most any film
>> I've ever used. It's worth raving about.
>>
>> Tom C wrote:
>> > With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
>> >
>> > I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 
>> ISO any
>> > day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO
>> > performance at 1600 and above. I find any photo I take at 1600 or 
>> higher
>> > with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot
>> > otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
>> >
>> > Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many 
>> times I was
>> > pushing 100 two stops to get 400. When I needed more light gathering
>> > ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.
>> >
>> > I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of
>> > DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.
>> >
>> > Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave 
>> about?
>> > For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower 
>> ISO and a
>> > tripod.
>> >
>> > Tom C.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next 
>> camera(s)
>> >> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
>> >>
>> >> Adam Maas wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO
>> >>>
>> >> performance
>> >>
>> >>> (it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).
>> >>>
>> >> Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's
>> >> been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate
>> >>
>> > >f

Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

Heck, I've finally learned to compose for the 35mm frame, and unlike 
some people I know the 6x9 format well predates the popularity of 35mm 
double frame cameras.

John Sessoms wrote:
> From: Toralf Lund
>
>   
>> graywolf wrote:
>> 
>>> Or something like a 24x30 or 24x32 frame?
>>>   
>>>   
>> Or 24x28, even?
>>
>> Yes, a change of aspect ratio would be interesting. I wonder what the 
>> reaction would be... 
>> 
>
> Stunned horror followed by extreme outrage.
>
>   


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Most of you guys are missing my point, or maybe I'm not acknowledging that I 
get yours.


I'm just trying to say that high ISO quality seems to viewed as a holy grail 
in digital photography, and my perception, right, wrong, or skewed, is that 
with film photography it was generally accepted that you were going to 
sacrifice image quality when shooting high ISO film to get the shot. Of 
course the same happens with digital, the higher the ISO, the noisier the 
image, or the heavier the noise reduction, losing detail.


My comments were that high ISO image quality suffers whether using film or 
digital, so I wouldn't mind a FF DSLR with great low - mid ISO performance 
and mediocre/poor high ISO performance, because... ta da! :-) I expect 
mediocre/poor high ISO performance anyway. I have not shot one image on the 
*ist D at 1600 ISO that I can say I'm really happy with.  Even if it is a 
nice shot, I can see that it would have better with a tripod and lower ISO.


I thoroughly understand that some kinds of photography and venues dictate 
the use of high ISO.


Tom C.



From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:12:35 -0400

Tri-X heads shooting available light were always looking for more speed.
It was the content that counted not so much the quality. I find that
both the *ist-D and Ds give better results at 1600 than most any film
I've ever used. It's worth raving about.

Tom C wrote:
> With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
>
> I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 ISO 
any

> day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO
> performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or 
higher

> with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot
> otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
>
> Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many times I 
was

> pushing 100 two stops to get 400.  When I needed more light gathering
> ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.
>
> I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of
> DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.
>
> Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave 
about?
> For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower ISO 
and a

> tripod.
>
> Tom C.
>
>
>
>
>> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next 
camera(s)

>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
>>
>> Adam Maas wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO
>>>
>> performance
>>
>>> (it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).
>>>
>> Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's
>> been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate
>>
> >from 1.7 fps to 3 fps, for example.
>
>> Not that it has any bearing on Pentax, AFAIK.
>>
>> BTW:
>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=25298198
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>> follow the directions.
>>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

Tri-X heads shooting available light were always looking for more speed. 
It was the content that counted not so much the quality. I find that 
both the *ist-D and Ds give better results at 1600 than most any film 
I've ever used. It's worth raving about.

Tom C wrote:
> With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
>
> I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 ISO any 
> day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO 
> performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or higher 
> with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot 
> otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
>
> Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many times I was 
> pushing 100 two stops to get 400.  When I needed more light gathering 
> ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.
>
> I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of 
> DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.
>
> Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave about?  
> For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower ISO and a 
> tripod.
>
> Tom C.
>
>
>
>   
>> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
>>
>> Adam Maas wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO
>>>   
>> performance
>> 
>>> (it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).
>>>   
>> Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's
>> been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate
>> 
> >from 1.7 fps to 3 fps, for example.
>   
>> Not that it has any bearing on Pentax, AFAIK.
>>
>> BTW:
>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=25298198
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>> follow the directions.
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>
>
>
>   


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

Tom C wrote:
> Certainly... I understand. Given that you could achieve your desired 
> results, would you opt for a lower or higher ISO?  My guess is one usually 
> opts for the lowest ISO possible.
> 
> For me personally, if I could get a FF DLSR that was great at ISO 200 - 800, 
> comparable to the same ISO film, and if it had higher ISO quality equivalent 
> to film at the same ISO,  I'd be happy.
> 
> Of course this is conjecture.  We don't know if a FF body is imminent, what 
> sensor it will have, or how good it will be.
> 
> Not trying to argue really.
> 
> Tom C.

The quality you ask for is already there in the 200-800 range, FF or 
not. The only range that film still outperforms digital is at ISO 20-50 
(Films like Adox CMS 20 and Velvia).

-Adam

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Toralf Lund]

Adam Maas wrote:
> Tom C wrote:
>   
>> With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?... 
>>
>> I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 ISO any 
>> day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO [ ... ]
>>
>> 
>
> I get results at ISO1600+ on film that I would rave about, digital less 
> so, but I'm not unhappy with 3200 on any of the Pentax's I've owned.
>
> And there's no 35mm form-factor digital SLR today that isn't superb at 
> ISO400 and good at 800 (And most are superb at 800). If you care only 
> about ISO800 and below, you have absolutely no need for FF 35mm 
>   
> sensors(unless you also want 20+MP,
Let's not forget about the dynamic range, though. I think most people 
wouldn't mind having a couple or extra usable bit in the "raw" output, 
and this is easier to achieve with a larger sensor. It's just a 
different part of the "noise" story, of course, and also something you 
might get with a "medium format" digital.

>  but then you'd be better off buying 
> a Mamiya 645ZD kit than a 1DsmIII IMHO, less lens limitations)
>
> -Adam
>
>   


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C"
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)


> Certainly... I understand. Given that you could achieve your desired
> results, would you opt for a lower or higher ISO?  My guess is one usually
> opts for the lowest ISO possible.

There are situations where the photographer will opt for the highest ISO 
available, simply because it is the best way of securing the image.
A low ISO does no good when lighting is dim, the use of flash is precluded, 
and the subject is moving, even if slowly.
As an example, my shoot on Friday night didn't allow for low ISO use. At 
1600, I was shooting wide open (f1.4), often lucky if I could get 1/40 sec.
In these situations, the given is that low ISO performance is moot.

William Robb 


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Dario Bonazza]

John Francis wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 07:48:17PM -0600, Tom C wrote:
>> With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
>>
>> I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 ISO any
>> day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO
>> performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or higher
>> with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot
>> otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
>
> That's precisely why I want a DSLR with good high ISO performance.
> There are many situations (stage performances, night races, etc.)
> where high ISO is what I want.   Long exposures are useless when
> trying to photography moving objects (cars, or even just singers).

Ditto.

Dario 


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Certainly... I understand. Given that you could achieve your desired 
results, would you opt for a lower or higher ISO?  My guess is one usually 
opts for the lowest ISO possible.

For me personally, if I could get a FF DLSR that was great at ISO 200 - 800, 
comparable to the same ISO film, and if it had higher ISO quality equivalent 
to film at the same ISO,  I'd be happy.

Of course this is conjecture.  We don't know if a FF body is imminent, what 
sensor it will have, or how good it will be.

Not trying to argue really.

Tom C.

>From: John Francis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 01:24:17 -0400
>
>On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 07:48:17PM -0600, Tom C wrote:
> > With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
> >
> > I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 ISO 
>any
> > day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO
> > performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or 
>higher
> > with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot
> > otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
>
>That's precisely why I want a DSLR with good high ISO performance.
>There are many situations (stage performances, night races, etc.)
>where high ISO is what I want.   Long exposures are useless when
>trying to photography moving objects (cars, or even just singers).
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[John Francis]

On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 07:48:17PM -0600, Tom C wrote:
> With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
> 
> I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 ISO any 
> day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO 
> performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or higher 
> with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot 
> otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.

That's precisely why I want a DSLR with good high ISO performance.
There are many situations (stage performances, night races, etc.)
where high ISO is what I want.   Long exposures are useless when
trying to photography moving objects (cars, or even just singers).


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

God I hate Vista or this Thinkpad. Every 9th or 10th post my composed 
message goes away. I know I'm hitting a wrong key, frack.

That image does nothing for me, but that's subjectivity.  I can see why it 
would have appeal.

IMO high ISO film was generally used as a compromise so either high enough 
shutter speed or small enough aperture (DOF) could be achieved with existing 
lighting, often to avoid the use of flash.

I've also taken high ISO pictures that I've been happy with. OTOH, whether 
they work well as larger prints is another question.  For example:

http://pug.komkon.org/99oct/TakhlakhVenus.htm

My point was not to condemm high ISO images across the board.  It was to say 
that generally one uses the lowest ISO possible to achieve the results they 
want.  Image quality (again could be subjective to some) generally degrades 
as ISO or sensitivity goes up.

Therefore, as in years past, I did not very often shoot at ISO 1600 or 
above, and will not do so now with DSLR's because the results are generally 
inferior.  So all I really care about is great results at 800 and below.

Tom C.


>From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 22:13:28 -0400
>
>A shot that I consider one of the best of my career was at 3200. But
>I don't get all bent out of shape about noise or grain. Apparently,
>some critics agree.
>http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/index-flash.jsp?
>#section=ARTIST&subSection=101957&subSubSection=128514&language=EN
>Paul
>On Oct 21, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Tom C wrote:
>
> > With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
> >
> > I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400
> > ISO any
> > day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO
> > performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or
> > higher
> > with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot
> > otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
> >
> > Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many
> > times I was
> > pushing 100 two stops to get 400.  When I needed more light gathering
> > ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.
> >
> > I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of
> > DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.
> >
> > Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave
> > about?
> > For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower
> > ISO and a
> > tripod.
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> >> camera(s)
> >> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
> >>
> >> Adam Maas wrote:
> >>
> >>> Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO
> >> performance
> >>> (it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).
> >>
> >> Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's
> >> been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate
> >> from 1.7 fps to 3 fps, for example.
> >>
> >> Not that it has any bearing on Pentax, AFAIK.
> >>
> >> BTW:
> >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?
> >> forum=1036&message=25298198
> >> ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

John Sessoms wrote:
> From: Toralf Lund
> 
>> graywolf wrote:
>>> Or something like a 24x30 or 24x32 frame?
>>>   
>> Or 24x28, even?
>>
>> Yes, a change of aspect ratio would be interesting. I wonder what the 
>> reaction would be... 
> 
> Stunned horror followed by extreme outrage.
> 

I dunno, I definitely prefer 4:3 and 5:4 to 3:2, makes for much easier 
cropping to print. But I'd like to see a larger sensor (20x25mm maybe?) 
rather than going with the smaller 4/3rds format.

-Adam

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[John Sessoms]

From: Toralf Lund

> graywolf wrote:
>> Or something like a 24x30 or 24x32 frame?
>>   
> Or 24x28, even?
> 
> Yes, a change of aspect ratio would be interesting. I wonder what the 
> reaction would be... 

Stunned horror followed by extreme outrage.

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C"
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)



>
> Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave about?
> For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower ISO and 
> a
> tripod.

I shot a few hundred shots in a dimly lit restaraunt on Friday evening.
I shot at iso 1600, and would really have liked a higher iso than the K10 
gave me.
As it is, the shots that I got were OK, but certainly nothing to rave about.
Had I another couple of stops of speed, there might have been a few shots 
though.

William Robb 


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

Excellent shot Paul.

I've also got a ISO3200 shot that I'd consider to be one of my best:

http://flickr.com/photos/mawz/58353764/in/set-72157594316203966/

*istD with the 18-55 DA.

-Adam


Paul Stenquist wrote:
> A shot that I consider one of the best of my career was at 3200. But  
> I don't get all bent out of shape about noise or grain. Apparently,  
> some critics agree.
> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/index-flash.jsp? 
> #section=ARTIST&subSection=101957&subSubSection=128514&language=EN
> Paul
> On Oct 21, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Tom C wrote:
> 
>> With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
>>
>> I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400  
>> ISO any
>> day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO
>> performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or  
>> higher
>> with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot
>> otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
>>
>> Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many  
>> times I was
>> pushing 100 two stops to get 400.  When I needed more light gathering
>> ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.
>>
>> I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of
>> DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.
>>
>> Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave  
>> about?
>> For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower  
>> ISO and a
>> tripod.
>>
>> Tom C.
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next  
>>> camera(s)
>>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
>>>
>>> Adam Maas wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO
>>> performance
>>>> (it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).
>>> Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's
>>> been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate
>>> from 1.7 fps to 3 fps, for example.
>>>
>>> Not that it has any bearing on Pentax, AFAIK.
>>>
>>> BTW:
>>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp? 
>>> forum=1036&message=25298198
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> and
>>> follow the directions.
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> 


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Paul Stenquist]

A shot that I consider one of the best of my career was at 3200. But  
I don't get all bent out of shape about noise or grain. Apparently,  
some critics agree.
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/index-flash.jsp? 
#section=ARTIST&subSection=101957&subSubSection=128514&language=EN
Paul
On Oct 21, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Tom C wrote:

> With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
>
> I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400  
> ISO any
> day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO
> performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or  
> higher
> with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot
> otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
>
> Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many  
> times I was
> pushing 100 two stops to get 400.  When I needed more light gathering
> ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.
>
> I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of
> DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.
>
> Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave  
> about?
> For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower  
> ISO and a
> tripod.
>
> Tom C.
>
>
>
>> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next  
>> camera(s)
>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
>>
>> Adam Maas wrote:
>>
>>> Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO
>> performance
>>> (it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).
>>
>> Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's
>> been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate
>> from 1.7 fps to 3 fps, for example.
>>
>> Not that it has any bearing on Pentax, AFAIK.
>>
>> BTW:
>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp? 
>> forum=1036&message=25298198
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

Tom C wrote:
> With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...
> 
> I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 ISO any 
> day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO 
> performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or higher 
> with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot 
> otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.
> 
> Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many times I was 
> pushing 100 two stops to get 400.  When I needed more light gathering 
> ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.
> 
> I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of 
> DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.
> 
> Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave about?  
> For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower ISO and a 
> tripod.
> 
> Tom C.
> 

I get results at ISO1600+ on film that I would rave about, digital less 
so, but I'm not unhappy with 3200 on any of the Pentax's I've owned.

And there's no 35mm form-factor digital SLR today that isn't superb at 
ISO400 and good at 800 (And most are superb at 800). If you care only 
about ISO800 and below, you have absolutely no need for FF 35mm 
sensors(unless you also want 20+MP, but then you'd be better off buying 
a Mamiya 645ZD kit than a 1DsmIII IMHO, less lens limitations)

-Adam

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

With the caveat regarding who knows about Pentax?...

I'd take a full frame sensor that did very well between 200 - 400 ISO any 
day (ISO 800) w/b nice, over any sensor that had marginal high ISO 
performance at 1600 and above.  I find any photo I take at 1600 or higher 
with the *ist D to be, while documentary, not worth a heck of alot 
otherwise. I am loathe to set ISO over 800.

Thinking back to film, I rarely shot anything over 400, and many times I was 
pushing 100 two stops to get 400.  When I needed more light gathering 
ability the camera was on a tripod and I used longer shutter speeds.

I wouldn't mind that at all because I find the high ISO performance of 
DSLR's to be no more desirable than the performance of high ISO films.

Who *seriously* shoots at ISO1600+ and gets results they would rave about?  
For my kind of photgraphy it doesn't work near as well as a lower ISO and a 
tripod.

Tom C.



>From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
>
>Adam Maas wrote:
>
> >Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO
>performance
> >(it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).
>
>Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's
>been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate
>from 1.7 fps to 3 fps, for example.
>
>Not that it has any bearing on Pentax, AFAIK.
>
>BTW:
>http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=25298198
>;-)
>
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[graywolf]

Make that my existing 4x5 camera, the Graphic from 1952.

graywolf wrote:
> No thanks, I want to use it on my existing camera. However that is about the 
> price I would want to pay for it.
> 
> Your thing I could do manually with my existing digital at no cost, but since 
> I 
> am not into stilllifes much it would not help me a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> Sandy Harris wrote:
>> On 10/21/07, graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> I want a full frame portable all in one back for my 4x5. It does not have 
>>> to be
>>> high resolution, 4000x5000 will do fine for me.
>>>
>>> How's that for a dream?
>> Good one.
>>
>> More realistic: how about a little robotic device that manages using
>> a digital camera for panoramas? You want 4000*5000 = 20M pixels?
>> Use a 6Mp camera, get maybe 2 Mp per shot after overlap. Build
>> a 12-shot pano and you are over your spec. Going much higher is
>> possible.
>>
>> The thing is already in beta. $279
>> http://www.gigapan.org/
>>
>> In a few years, will the photographer who wants absolute top
>> image quality be hauling one of these about instead of a view
>> camera?
>>
> 

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Thibouille]

Quote:

>Hi Thibouille,
>
>
>I do not know how latest the sensor is, but the Chinese site is talking
>quite in detail about the spec and the expected price (So, I was told.  I do
>not read Chinese :-).
>
>I noted it is 3fps which is on par with 5D which indicates it should not be
>an obsolete sensor (although people want at least 5 fps but it's a larger
>sensor).
>
[...]
>
>Rgds,
>
>Ken
> End Quote

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--
K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ...

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[graywolf]

No thanks, I want to use it on my existing camera. However that is about the 
price I would want to pay for it.

Your thing I could do manually with my existing digital at no cost, but since I 
am not into stilllifes much it would not help me a lot.



Sandy Harris wrote:
> On 10/21/07, graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I want a full frame portable all in one back for my 4x5. It does not have to 
>> be
>> high resolution, 4000x5000 will do fine for me.
>>
>> How's that for a dream?
> 
> Good one.
> 
> More realistic: how about a little robotic device that manages using
> a digital camera for panoramas? You want 4000*5000 = 20M pixels?
> Use a 6Mp camera, get maybe 2 Mp per shot after overlap. Build
> a 12-shot pano and you are over your spec. Going much higher is
> possible.
> 
> The thing is already in beta. $279
> http://www.gigapan.org/
> 
> In a few years, will the photographer who wants absolute top
> image quality be hauling one of these about instead of a view
> camera?
> 

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Toralf Lund]

graywolf wrote:
> Or something like a 24x30 or 24x32 frame?
>   
Or 24x28, even?

Yes, a change of aspect ratio would be interesting. I wonder what the 
reaction would be...
> Toralf Lund wrote:
>
>   
>> On the other hand, as perhaps someone mentioned earlier, there's a lot 
>> between 1.5x and 1.0x. It's been reported here that the DA lenses 
>> generally cover very nearly the image circle required by 35mm film, so 
>> perhaps they would be perfect for something like 1.3x. Or, I believe 
>> someone talked about 1.2x, too; I must say I like the thought of that. 
>> Maybe it's just because I think round numbers are nice...
>> 
>
>   


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[David Savage]

But that'll just add to the cost ot the camera.

:-)

Cheers,

Dave

On 10/21/07, P. J. Alling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If they go full frame I want the aperture simulator back.  :-P
>
> Mark Roberts wrote:
> > David Savage wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On 10/21/07, Thibouille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> According to Ken Takeshita:
> >>>
> >>> Seems there's a strong rumour in Japan that Pentax would go
> >>> with Cypress 14Mpix FF sensor.
> >>>
> >>> It seems someone is going to use that sensor and since Pentax
> >>> is the only brand not "affiliated" with any sensor brand for now...
> >>>
> >>> http://news.fengniao.com/69/691199.html
> >>>
> >>>
> > http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/datasheets/contents/ibis4_14000_8.pdf
> >
> >> Har!
> >>
> >> It true, that'd pI55 a lot of people off.
> >>
> >> Not me personally, but I'm sure there will be those who won't like it.
> >>
> > :-)
> >
> > Dave: *Whatever* Pentax does will piss off a lot of people. Use the
> > Cypress sensor. Not use the Cypress sensor. Go full-frame, not go
> > full-frame. etc.
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Remember, it's pillage then burn.
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

If they go full frame I want the aperture simulator back.  :-P

Mark Roberts wrote:
> David Savage wrote:
>
>   
>> On 10/21/07, Thibouille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> According to Ken Takeshita:
>>>
>>> Seems there's a strong rumour in Japan that Pentax would go 
>>> with Cypress 14Mpix FF sensor.
>>>
>>> It seems someone is going to use that sensor and since Pentax 
>>> is the only brand not "affiliated" with any sensor brand for now...
>>>
>>> http://news.fengniao.com/69/691199.html
>>>
>>>   
> http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/datasheets/contents/ibis4_14000_8.pdf
>   
>> Har!
>>
>> It true, that'd pI55 a lot of people off.
>>
>> Not me personally, but I'm sure there will be those who won't like it. 
>> 
> :-)
>
> Dave: *Whatever* Pentax does will piss off a lot of people. Use the 
> Cypress sensor. Not use the Cypress sensor. Go full-frame, not go 
> full-frame. etc.
>
> ;-)
>
>
>   


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Mark Roberts]

Adam Maas wrote:

>Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO 
performance 
>(it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).

Well they may have improved it since then: The data sheet shows it's 
been revised, January 2007 -- they've nearly doubled the frame rate 
from 1.7 fps to 3 fps, for example.

Not that it has any bearing on Pentax, AFAIK.

BTW: 
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=25298198
;-)



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

Alexandru-Cristian Sarbu wrote:
> On 10/21/07, Thibouille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> According to Ken Takeshita:
>>
>> Seems there's a strong rumour in Japan that Pentax would go with
>> Cypress 14Mpix FF sensor.
>>
>> It seems someone is going to use that sensor and since Pentax is the
>> only brand not "affiliated" with any sensor brand for now...
>>
>> http://news.fengniao.com/69/691199.html
>> http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/datasheets/contents/ibis4_14000_8.pdf
>>
>> Have fun ;)
>>
>> --
>> Thibault Massart aka Thibouille
>> --
> 
> Afaik, that's a very old sensor.
> And Pentax will also need to launch at least few FF (zoom) lenses,
> let's say one or two standard zooms (f/4 and f/2.8) and a tele zoom
> (60-250?).
> 

Not only an old sensor, but one with extremely poor high ISO performance 
(it's the Sensor Kodak used in the DCS14n, DCS/n and DCS/c).

-Adam

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[David Savage]

On 10/21/07, Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> *Whatever* Pentax does will piss off a lot of people. Use the
> Cypress sensor. Not use the Cypress sensor. Go full-frame, not go
> full-frame. etc.

Mark!

So very true.

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Thibouille]

2007/10/21, Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> Dave: *Whatever* Pentax does will piss off a lot of people. Use the
> Cypress sensor. Not use the Cypress sensor. Go full-frame, not go
> full-frame. etc.
>
> ;-)

True ! :)

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--
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Mark Roberts]

David Savage wrote:

>On 10/21/07, Thibouille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> According to Ken Takeshita:
>>
>> Seems there's a strong rumour in Japan that Pentax would go 
>>with Cypress 14Mpix FF sensor.
>>
>> It seems someone is going to use that sensor and since Pentax 
>> is the only brand not "affiliated" with any sensor brand for now...
>>
>> http://news.fengniao.com/69/691199.html
>> 
http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/datasheets/contents/ibis4_14000_8.pdf
>
>Har!
>
>It true, that'd pI55 a lot of people off.
>
>Not me personally, but I'm sure there will be those who won't like it. 
:-)

Dave: *Whatever* Pentax does will piss off a lot of people. Use the 
Cypress sensor. Not use the Cypress sensor. Go full-frame, not go 
full-frame. etc.

;-)


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Paul Stenquist]

I'd like it. I'd be very happy with FF, but it doesn't seem logical.  
However, I'm now going to hold off on buying any DA* lenses until I  
know more. (Other than the 60-250, which is my most lusted after  
anway -- if not my most needed.) But rumors of this sort are a sure  
way to put the damper on sales of the other two DA* lenses.
Ned?


On Oct 21, 2007, at 4:34 AM, David Savage wrote:

> On 10/21/07, Thibouille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> According to Ken Takeshita:
>>
>> Seems there's a strong rumour in Japan that Pentax would go with
>> Cypress 14Mpix FF sensor.
>>
>> It seems someone is going to use that sensor and since Pentax is the
>> only brand not "affiliated" with any sensor brand for now...
>>
>> http://news.fengniao.com/69/691199.html
>> http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/ 
>> datasheets/contents/ibis4_14000_8.pdf
>>
>> Have fun ;)
>
> Har!
>
> It true, that'd pI55 a lot of people off.
>
> Not me personally, but I'm sure there will be those who won't like  
> it. :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Thibouille]

Yes but maybe the equivallent with updated tech?
I can't read Japanese so really I can't say much and Babelfish is
absolutely of no help at all.

I know lenses are problem but I suppose a part of the fuel to this
rumour is indeed the recent delay introduced when DA*200/300 should
have been launched.

This is really only a rumour of course. Hey that's fun. I don't really
beleive in FF soon for Pentax but I'm somehow surprised by some
japanese rumours...

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Alexandru-Cristian Sarbu]

On 10/21/07, Thibouille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> According to Ken Takeshita:
>
> Seems there's a strong rumour in Japan that Pentax would go with
> Cypress 14Mpix FF sensor.
>
> It seems someone is going to use that sensor and since Pentax is the
> only brand not "affiliated" with any sensor brand for now...
>
> http://news.fengniao.com/69/691199.html
> http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/datasheets/contents/ibis4_14000_8.pdf
>
> Have fun ;)
>
> --
> Thibault Massart aka Thibouille
> --

Afaik, that's a very old sensor.
And Pentax will also need to launch at least few FF (zoom) lenses,
let's say one or two standard zooms (f/4 and f/2.8) and a tele zoom
(60-250?).

-- 
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Alex Sarbu

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Thibouille]

That thing would never land into a K20D IMO but an hypothetical
K5D/K1D, why not ;) ?

2007/10/21, David Savage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 10/21/07, Thibouille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > According to Ken Takeshita:
> >
> > Seems there's a strong rumour in Japan that Pentax would go with
> > Cypress 14Mpix FF sensor.
> >
> > It seems someone is going to use that sensor and since Pentax is the
> > only brand not "affiliated" with any sensor brand for now...
> >
> > http://news.fengniao.com/69/691199.html
> > http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/datasheets/contents/ibis4_14000_8.pdf
> >
> > Have fun ;)
>
> Har!
>
> It true, that'd pI55 a lot of people off.
>
> Not me personally, but I'm sure there will be those who won't like it. :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
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--
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[David Savage]

On 10/21/07, Thibouille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> According to Ken Takeshita:
>
> Seems there's a strong rumour in Japan that Pentax would go with
> Cypress 14Mpix FF sensor.
>
> It seems someone is going to use that sensor and since Pentax is the
> only brand not "affiliated" with any sensor brand for now...
>
> http://news.fengniao.com/69/691199.html
> http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/datasheets/contents/ibis4_14000_8.pdf
>
> Have fun ;)

Har!

It true, that'd pI55 a lot of people off.

Not me personally, but I'm sure there will be those who won't like it. :-)

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Thibouille]

According to Ken Takeshita:

Seems there's a strong rumour in Japan that Pentax would go with
Cypress 14Mpix FF sensor.

It seems someone is going to use that sensor and since Pentax is the
only brand not "affiliated" with any sensor brand for now...

http://news.fengniao.com/69/691199.html
http://download.cypress.com.edgesuite.net/design_resources/datasheets/contents/ibis4_14000_8.pdf

Have fun ;)

-- 
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--
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[David Savage]

It might be a reflection of things at home.

Is your granddaughter in that "No" stage Paul?

:-)

Cheers,

Dave

On 10/21/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> These one word answers aren't giving me much fuel for a rebuttal Paul. ;-)
>
> Tom C.
>
> >From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >No.

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

These one word answers aren't giving me much fuel for a rebuttal Paul. ;-)

Tom C.

>From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>No.

>On Oct 20, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Tom C wrote:
>
> > So must the CEO of Hoya come directly to your house and tell you
> > personally?
> > It's been stated publicly that their strategy is to concentrate on
> > products
> > that will sell in higher volume and have a higher per unit profit.
> > At about
> > the same time, it was announced that plans for marketing the 645D
> > had been
> > suspended, back-burnered, what ever you want to call it.
> >
> > I'm just putting 1 + 1 together and coming up with 2.  When/if Pentax
> > announces a digital 645 will be released I'll happily take them at
> > their
> > word.  Likewise, I have no idea if they'll make a FF body in the near
> > future.  However, I think that is more likely given their strategy,
> > than to
> > build and sell a  camera, that will be a relatively low volume
> > seller and
> > the market for which, is fairly unknown.  A FF 24 X 36 body
> > provides an
> > upgrade path for APS-C body owners, while a 645 upgrade means
> > starting over.
> >
> > What will they actually do? The CEO hasn't told me. :-)
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> >
> >> From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> >> camera(s)
> >> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:06:27 -0400
> >>
> >> No.
> >> On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:37 AM, Tom C wrote:
> >>
> >>> No.  But I read publicly available industry reports and news items
> >>> and am
> >>> referring to what I read.  Good enough?
> >>>
> >>> Tom C.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >>>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> >>>> camera(s)
> >>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:49:10 +
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom,
> >>>> You know Hoya management? Can you introduce them to the rest of us?
> >>>> Paul
> >>>>  -- Original message --
> >>>> From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>> May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
> >>>>> with those holding the purse strings.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
> >>>>> Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tom C.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>>>> So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -Adam
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tom C wrote:
> >>>>>>> Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades
> >>>>>>> and did
> >>>>>>> have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to
> >>>> today?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom C.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >>>>>>>> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> >>>> camera(s)
> >>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web
> >>>>>>>> site. If
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product
> >>>> introduction.
> >>>>>>>> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry
> >>>>>>>> off. Nor
> >>>> do I
> >>>>>>>> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of
> >>>>&

Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Paul Stenquist]

No.
On Oct 20, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Tom C wrote:

> So must the CEO of Hoya come directly to your house and tell you  
> personally?
> It's been stated publicly that their strategy is to concentrate on  
> products
> that will sell in higher volume and have a higher per unit profit.   
> At about
> the same time, it was announced that plans for marketing the 645D  
> had been
> suspended, back-burnered, what ever you want to call it.
>
> I'm just putting 1 + 1 together and coming up with 2.  When/if Pentax
> announces a digital 645 will be released I'll happily take them at  
> their
> word.  Likewise, I have no idea if they'll make a FF body in the near
> future.  However, I think that is more likely given their strategy,  
> than to
> build and sell a  camera, that will be a relatively low volume  
> seller and
> the market for which, is fairly unknown.  A FF 24 X 36 body  
> provides an
> upgrade path for APS-C body owners, while a 645 upgrade means  
> starting over.
>
> What will they actually do? The CEO hasn't told me. :-)
>
> Tom C.
>
>
>> From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next  
>> camera(s)
>> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:06:27 -0400
>>
>> No.
>> On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:37 AM, Tom C wrote:
>>
>>> No.  But I read publicly available industry reports and news items
>>> and am
>>> referring to what I read.  Good enough?
>>>
>>> Tom C.
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
>>>> camera(s)
>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:49:10 +
>>>>
>>>> Tom,
>>>> You know Hoya management? Can you introduce them to the rest of us?
>>>> Paul
>>>>  -- Original message --
>>>> From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
>>>>> with those holding the purse strings.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
>>>>> Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom C.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>> So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Adam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom C wrote:
>>>>>>> Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades
>>>>>>> and did
>>>>>>> have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to
>>>> today?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom C.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>>>>>>> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
>>>> camera(s)
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web
>>>>>>>> site. If
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product
>>>> introduction.
>>>>>>>> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry  
>>>>>>>> off. Nor
>>>> do I
>>>>>>>> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of  
>>>>>>>> real
>>>> demand
>>>>>>>> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand
>>>>>>>> for K
>>>> mount
>>>>>>>> lenses."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in
>>>>>>>> stock.
>>>>>>> Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-
>>>>>>> angle 645
>>>>>>> lenses, and they already have 

Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Sandy Harris]

On 10/21/07, graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I want a full frame portable all in one back for my 4x5. It does not have to 
> be
> high resolution, 4000x5000 will do fine for me.
>
> How's that for a dream?

Good one.

More realistic: how about a little robotic device that manages using
a digital camera for panoramas? You want 4000*5000 = 20M pixels?
Use a 6Mp camera, get maybe 2 Mp per shot after overlap. Build
a 12-shot pano and you are over your spec. Going much higher is
possible.

The thing is already in beta. $279
http://www.gigapan.org/

In a few years, will the photographer who wants absolute top
image quality be hauling one of these about instead of a view
camera?

-- 
Sandy Harris,
Nanjing, China

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

So must the CEO of Hoya come directly to your house and tell you personally? 
It's been stated publicly that their strategy is to concentrate on products 
that will sell in higher volume and have a higher per unit profit.  At about 
the same time, it was announced that plans for marketing the 645D had been 
suspended, back-burnered, what ever you want to call it.

I'm just putting 1 + 1 together and coming up with 2.  When/if Pentax 
announces a digital 645 will be released I'll happily take them at their 
word.  Likewise, I have no idea if they'll make a FF body in the near 
future.  However, I think that is more likely given their strategy, than to 
build and sell a  camera, that will be a relatively low volume seller and 
the market for which, is fairly unknown.  A FF 24 X 36 body provides an 
upgrade path for APS-C body owners, while a 645 upgrade means starting over.

What will they actually do? The CEO hasn't told me. :-)

Tom C.


>From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:06:27 -0400
>
>No.
>On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:37 AM, Tom C wrote:
>
> > No.  But I read publicly available industry reports and news items
> > and am
> > referring to what I read.  Good enough?
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> >
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> >> camera(s)
> >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:49:10 +
> >>
> >> Tom,
> >> You know Hoya management? Can you introduce them to the rest of us?
> >> Paul
> >>  -- Original message --
> >> From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
> >>> with those holding the purse strings.
> >>>
> >>> I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
> >>> Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.
> >>>
> >>> Tom C.
> >>>
> >>> On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>> So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Adam
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom C wrote:
> >>>>> Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades
> >>>>> and did
> >>>>> have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to
> >> today?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tom C.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >>>>>> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> >> camera(s)
> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web
> >>>>>> site. If
> >> the
> >>>>>> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product
> >> introduction.
> >>>>>> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor
> >> do I
> >>>>>> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real
> >> demand
> >>>>>> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand
> >>>>>> for K
> >> mount
> >>>>>> lenses."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in
> >>>>>> stock.
> >>>>> Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-
> >>>>> angle 645
> >>>>> lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
> >>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> >>>>>> PDML@pdml.net
> >>>>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> >>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly
> >>>>>> above
> >>&

Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[graywolf]

Or something like a 24x30 or 24x32 frame?

Toralf Lund wrote:

> 
> On the other hand, as perhaps someone mentioned earlier, there's a lot 
> between 1.5x and 1.0x. It's been reported here that the DA lenses 
> generally cover very nearly the image circle required by 35mm film, so 
> perhaps they would be perfect for something like 1.3x. Or, I believe 
> someone talked about 1.2x, too; I must say I like the thought of that. 
> Maybe it's just because I think round numbers are nice...

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[graywolf]

I want a full frame portable all in one back for my 4x5. It does not have to be 
high resolution, 4000x5000 will do fine for me.

How's that for a dream?


Rebekah wrote:
> Hopefully a new camera will drive down the price of the K10 :)
> 
>> But this 'I want FF' thing is really out of proportion IMO.
> 
> What's wrong with dreaming of FF?

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Paul Stenquist]

No.
On Oct 20, 2007, at 2:37 AM, Tom C wrote:

> No.  But I read publicly available industry reports and news items  
> and am
> referring to what I read.  Good enough?
>
> Tom C.
>
>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next  
>> camera(s)
>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:49:10 +
>>
>> Tom,
>> You know Hoya management? Can you introduce them to the rest of us?
>> Paul
>>  -- Original message --
>> From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
>>> with those holding the purse strings.
>>>
>>> I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
>>> Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.
>>>
>>> Tom C.
>>>
>>> On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
>>>>
>>>> -Adam
>>>>
>>>> Tom C wrote:
>>>>> Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades  
>>>>> and did
>>>>> have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to
>> today?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom C.
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>>>>> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
>> camera(s)
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web  
>>>>>> site. If
>> the
>>>>>> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product
>> introduction.
>>>>>> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor
>> do I
>>>>>> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real
>> demand
>>>>>> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand  
>>>>>> for K
>> mount
>>>>>> lenses."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in  
>>>>>> stock.
>>>>> Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide- 
>>>>> angle 645
>>>>> lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>>>>> PDML@pdml.net
>>>>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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>>>>>> above
>>>>> and follow the directions.
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> above and
>> follow
>>> the directions.
>>>>
>>>
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>>> above and
>> follow
>>> the directions.
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Cotty]

On 19/10/07, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It 
>does not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You 
>wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...

As others have already posted,

The Leica M8:



The Canon 1D series with 4 generations (not to be confused with the 1Ds
series which is FF)









HTH


-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
_



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

No.  But I read publicly available industry reports and news items and am 
referring to what I read.  Good enough?

Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:49:10 +
>
>Tom,
>You know Hoya management? Can you introduce them to the rest of us?
>Paul
>  -- Original message --
>From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
> > with those holding the purse strings.
> >
> > I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
> > Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> > On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
> > >
> > > -Adam
> > >
> > > Tom C wrote:
> > > > Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> > > > have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to 
>today?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tom C.
> > > >
> > > >> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> > > >> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> > > >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next 
>camera(s)
> > > >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> > > >>
> > > >> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If 
>the
> > > >> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product 
>introduction.
> > > >> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor 
>do I
> > > >> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real 
>demand
> > > >> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K 
>mount
> > > >> lenses."
> > > >>
> > > >> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> > > > Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> > > > lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
> > > >> Joe
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> > > >> PDML@pdml.net
> > > >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> > > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above
> > > > and follow the directions.
> > > >
> > >
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[David Savage]

On 10/20/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
> Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.

Given the recent news that the 645D project, while not scrapped, was
'no longer a priority for Pentax.' (Hiroshi Onoda, European general
manager for Imaging Systems) seems to bare this out.

But who really knows?

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[David Savage]

On 10/20/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
> >than the current products on the market?
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Dave
> >
>
> Have to say it:
>
> >Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
> >than the current products on the market?
>
> Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be hard
> to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It makes me
> wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the stores selling
> at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at $699.  I saw an *ist D
> online yesterday for $1299!
>
> In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.

I agree. The K10D is very well spec'ed, but undervalued. Which is good
for me. The money I saved on the body goes toward new lenses &
accessories.

And now that Hoya is in charge (& I assume looking good & hard at the
bottom line) I think the next product cycle may be priced differently.

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

So is the Cotty cam.

Sandy Harris wrote:
> On 10/20/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It
>> does not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You
>> wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...
>> 
>
> Leica M8 is 1.33 or so.
>
>   


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

The same people who will spend twice list price for used equipment on 
e-Bay that is still available new through B&H and Adorama. What is e-Bay 
if not the ultimate garage sale?

Tom C wrote:
> And just who will buy it at $999 when it can be had for $599? I want 
> to meet those people, because I have some items in my garage I'd like 
> to get rid of.
>
> Tom C.
>
>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> Not exactly free fall, you can find it for $599, (after rebate), but a
>> lot of places are still selling it for 999 or more.
>>
>> Adam Maas wrote:
>> > $599 after rebate isn't cheap enough? The K10D's price has been in 
>> freefall for the last couple of months.
>> >
>> > -Adam
>> >
>> >
>> > Rebekah wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hopefully a new camera will drive down the price of the K10 :)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> But this 'I want FF' thing is really out of proportion IMO.
>> >>>
>> >> What's wrong with dreaming of FF?
>> >>
>> >> rg2
>> >>
>> >> On 10/19/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Feels right, Paul.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jack
>> >>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>  It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to 
>> introduce a
>>  camera that can't use the lenses that you've just introduced. 
>> The DA*
>>  60-250 hasn't even seen the light of day yet. Plus, most of the 
>> full
>>  frame lenses seem to have been discontinued. I suspect that the 
>> only
>>  ones being sold now are existing stock. Of course we might one day
>>  see a full frame camera along with a new line of lenses, but I 
>> doubt
>>  that Pentax is ready for that now.
>>  Paul
>>  -- Original message --
>>  From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> 
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> >
>> > >From what Adam has told us about the newest sensors, 12
>> >
>> >> megapixels with good noise characteristics might well be possible
>> >> at 1.5.
>> >>
>> > Could be. But every so often I look at what Nikon's getting 
>> from 12
>> > megapixels at full-frame...
>> >
>> >
>> > --
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>> 
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>> >>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> >>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>> >>>
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>> >
>> >
>>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[John Francis]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 12:21:49PM -0600, Tom C wrote:
> I can't see non-645 owners jumping to a 645D in masses.
> The 645D would be a low volume seller compared to a 24 x 36 FF body. . .

That's a big assumption; I'm by no means convinced you are right.

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[pnstenquist]

Exactly. And in order to keep the size reasonable, the image circle is usually 
no larger than it has to be. Of course, the difference in size is reduced at 
longer focal lengths.
Paul
 -- Original message --
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> The center of a lens has always been optimized for the center of the image 
> circle it projects. :-)
> 
> Tom C.
> 
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
> >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:56:16 +
> >
> >It's reportedly "optimized" for the 1.5 image circle. Whether it will cover 
> >full frame is another matter, but I'd expect some softness and vignetting 
> >at the corners.
> >Paul
> >  -- Original message --
> >From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > >It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to introduce a
> > > >camera that can't use the lenses that you've just introduced.
> > >
> > > Of course. You'll note I mentioned that I *didn't* expect the new
> > > camera to be FF. I'm *hoping* it's more than APS-C.
> > >
> > > >The DA* 60-250 hasn't even seen the light of day yet.
> > >
> > > Not a good example: I expect this lens will be FF. :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

Canon 1D series, Leica M8.

One never "needs" new lenses. You only have to think creatively and  
use the lenses you have. You might not be able to do *exactly* what  
you used to do, but for many that's not really such a terrible thing  
to deal with... ;-)

Photographers shouldn't be so equipment-bound.

G

On Oct 19, 2007, at 2:24 PM, Tom C wrote:

> Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the  
> moment?  It
> does not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and  
> FF. You
> wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

The center of a lens has always been optimized for the center of the image 
circle it projects. :-)

Tom C.

>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:56:16 +
>
>It's reportedly "optimized" for the 1.5 image circle. Whether it will cover 
>full frame is another matter, but I'd expect some softness and vignetting 
>at the corners.
>Paul
>  -- Original message --
>From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > >It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to introduce a
> > >camera that can't use the lenses that you've just introduced.
> >
> > Of course. You'll note I mentioned that I *didn't* expect the new
> > camera to be FF. I'm *hoping* it's more than APS-C.
> >
> > >The DA* 60-250 hasn't even seen the light of day yet.
> >
> > Not a good example: I expect this lens will be FF. :)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Pål Jensen]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> The market changes fast.  I think Pentax missed the mark with the 645D. 
> If
> it was released 2 years ago it might have had a chance.

No chance at all. It would have been far too expensive. Only when the cost 
is right will a 645D have any chance


>But, as you point
> out, much of the MF market has already gone to the high end Canons.


Sure. Just like the biggest buyer group for the 645N was Canon EOS1 
owners


> Personally, I think releasing a high-priced, non-main-stream camera body
> right now would be just about the stupidest move Pentax could make.  It's
> sales would be dwarfed by the continued popularity of high end Canons and
> now the D3.  Pentax needs to sell as many bodies and lenses as possible,
> plus look competitve in the marketplace.  I don't see the 645 filling that
> spot.


They have to do both... 



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Bob Blakely]

Whoa! That's from years ago! Stop scaring me!

Regards,
Bob...

"Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection." 
  -Jean Luc Godard
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)


> Mafud? (whoops)...


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Pål Jensen]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



> Given the reports on Hoya's management priorities, I can't see them 
> allowing
> Pentax to embark down a road on a niche-market, low-volume product.

According to Pentax and subsequently Hoya they want to be niche maker 
concentrating on the higher end...

>
> The simple fact is that 645 format MF cameras are off the radar of the 
> vast
> majority of the camera buying public.
>
> It would be a stupid business move.  The only people it would make happy 
> is
> those interested in a 645D from Pentax, which is very few people.

It is off the radar because no one is making an "affordable" one 



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Mafud? (whoops)...



Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:48:15 +
>
>colostomy bag?
>  -- Original message --
>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > ,,,or douchebag.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 10/20/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Dirtbag" shouldn't be overlooked.
> > >
> > > Jack
> > > --- Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ah, you've forgotten the venerable Barfbag !
> > > >
> > > > Kenneth Waller
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: "mike wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> > > > camera(s)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Cotty wrote:
> > > > >> On 19/10/07, Christian, discombobulated, unleashed:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>I thought Cotty was the only one able to bestow shitbag status on
> > > > a list
> > > > >>>member.  I'm feeling that my exclusive club is becoming over run
> > > > with
> > > > >>>pseudo-shitbags.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The pecking order is
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1. Shitbag
> > > > >> 2. Fartbag
> > > > >> 3. Sleazebag.
> > > > >
> > > > > Honourable mention:
> > > > > Ratbag
> >
> > --
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>follow
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly with 
those holding the purse strings.

Tom C.

>From: Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:24:47 -0400
>
>So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
>
>-Adam
>
>Tom C wrote:
> > Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> > have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?
> >
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> >> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next 
>camera(s)
> >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> >>
> >> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
> >> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
> >> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
> >> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
> >> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K 
>mount
> >> lenses."
> >>
> >> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> > Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> > lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> >> PDML@pdml.net
> >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above
> > and follow the directions.
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did have a 
respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
>645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
>Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
>think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
>for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
>lenses."
>
>All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock. 
>Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645 
>lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

And just who will buy it at $999 when it can be had for $599? I want to meet 
those people, because I have some items in my garage I'd like to get rid of.


Tom C.


From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



Not exactly free fall, you can find it for $599, (after rebate), but a
lot of places are still selling it for 999 or more.

Adam Maas wrote:
> $599 after rebate isn't cheap enough? The K10D's price has been in 
freefall for the last couple of months.

>
> -Adam
>
>
> Rebekah wrote:
>
>> Hopefully a new camera will drive down the price of the K10 :)
>>
>>
>>> But this 'I want FF' thing is really out of proportion IMO.
>>>
>> What's wrong with dreaming of FF?
>>
>> rg2
>>
>> On 10/19/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Feels right, Paul.
>>>
>>> Jack
>>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>
>>>
 It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to introduce a
 camera that can't use the lenses that you've just introduced. The DA*
 60-250 hasn't even seen the light of day yet. Plus, most of the full
 frame lenses seem to have been discontinued. I suspect that the only
 ones being sold now are existing stock. Of course we might one day
 see a full frame camera along with a new line of lenses, but I doubt
 that Pentax is ready for that now.
 Paul
  -- Original message --
 From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >From what Adam has told us about the newest sensors, 12
>
>> megapixels with good noise characteristics might well be possible
>> at 1.5.
>>
> Could be. But every so often I look at what Nikon's getting from 12
> megapixels at full-frame...
>
>
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>>> __
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
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follow the directions.

>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

I can't see non-645 owners jumping to a 645D in masses.  The 645D would be a 
low volume seller compared to a 24 x 36 FF body.  If used glass is so 
readily available, Pentax would not be making money there.

OTOH, if a 24 x 36 FF priced-within-reason body was released, a large number 
of current Pentax owners would likely upgrade.  Pentax has the lens know-how 
to make the lenses.  I was under the impression that Pentax has sold quite a 
number of extremely nice 35 mm lenses over the years, A, FA, etc.  It hasn't 
just been all consumer zooms and cheap 50mm primes.

The market changes fast.  I think Pentax missed the mark with the 645D.  If 
it was released 2 years ago it might have had a chance.  But, as you point 
out, much of the MF market has already gone to the high end Canons.

Personally, I think releasing a high-priced, non-main-stream camera body 
right now would be just about the stupidest move Pentax could make.  It's 
sales would be dwarfed by the continued popularity of high end Canons and 
now the D3.  Pentax needs to sell as many bodies and lenses as possible, 
plus look competitve in the marketplace.  I don't see the 645 filling that 
spot.

Tom C.


>From: Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:41:07 -0400
>
>Tom,
>
>One thing you are forgetting is that pro-level 645 glass is far more 
>readily available than the equivalent 35mm glass (outside of the FA 
>Limiteds, the 50/1.4 and 35/2). I can readily get lenses like the 35/3.5 in 
>645 mount, but not so much for the 20/2.8 or 85/1.4 in K mount, let alone a 
>28-70 f2.8 FA*. If Pentax wants to play in the Pro market, they will either 
>need to flood the market with a whole series of new pro-level 35mm lenses, 
>or go 645 which actually has the needed glass available used.
>
>100,000 28-80 f4-5.6's and a couple million 50mm f2's does not a pro lens 
>market make. The large number of consumer K mount lenses help prop up 
>Pentax's consumer market, but they're next to worthless to pro shooters.
>
>Also the market for an inexpensive 645 DSLR is mostly untapped. Mamiya is 
>the only real player there (with the ZD Back and 645ZD bundle) and they're 
>so strapped for supply that they're essentially ignoring the larger UK and 
>US markets in order to keep up with demand in Europe, Japan and Canada. If 
>they could keep up with worldwide demand, they'd probably start posting 
>numbers the size of the rest of the MF Digital market The issue there has 
>always been cost, not demand, keeping the market small, with MF shooters 
>moving to the 1Ds because it was the only economic choice for that level of 
>resolution.
>
>-Adam
>
>
>
>Tom C wrote:
> > Are you sure those lenses are in production?  Designed maybe, but I 
>would
> > think otherwise in the same status as the 645D.  They're not making 
>lenses
> > for a camera that's not on the production line.
> >
> > I'm not expecting it or holding my breath, but to me it makes *more 
>sense*
> > to produce a FF 24 X 36 body than the 645D. Here's why:
> >
> > 1. Canon and Nikon both now have FF bodies on the market.  If Pentax can 
>get
> > one out in short order they can be #3 to do so, ahead of Sony and 
>Olympus.
> > That would be a big feather in Pentax's cap.
> >
> > 2. The sales of a 645D would be relatively small compared to the sales 
>of a
> > FF 24 x 36 body because the market is smaller.  Pentax 35mm body/lens 
>owners
> > out number Pentax 645 owners by a large factor.  Can't begin to guess 
>what
> > it is, 100-to-1, 1000-to-1?
> >
> > 3. Moving to a 645 format is much costlier to non-645 system owners 
>because
> > they must buy into a whole new system.  I'd personally be more likely to 
>buy
> > a FF Canon or Nikon 24 x 36 body if I was going to change systems.  Last 
>but
> > not least it would still fit in the same camera bag. :-)
> >
> > 4. Pentax can do the in body sensor crop when DA lenses are attached,
> > preserving the usefulness of the DA lens series for those that have
> > purchased them.
> >
> > 5. It can't be any harder for Pentax to design and manufacture a FF 24 x 
>36
> > body than the 645.  They have all the basics. Yes they would need to
> > reeingineer the image processing engine, have a larger LCD,  and other
> > firmware/hardware changes, but that's a given with any new camera model.
> > The only thing really holding them back would be whether they can obtain 
>a
> > sensor at a pric

RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Sorry if some of these come through twice.  Weather made my satellite 
connection spotty and they don't appear to have reached the archives 
either...


Comments below:

Tom C.


From: Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Subject: RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:05:53 +0200

Tom Wrote:

Are you sure those lenses are in production?  Designed maybe, but I would
think otherwise in the same status as the 645D.  They're not making lenses
for a camera that's not on the production line.

I'm not expecting it or holding my breath, but to me it makes *more sense*
to produce a FF 24 X 36 body than the 645D. Here's why:

1. Canon and Nikon both now have FF bodies on the market.  If Pentax can 
get

one out in short order they can be #3 to do so, ahead of Sony and Olympus.
That would be a big feather in Pentax's cap.

2. The sales of a 645D would be relatively small compared to the sales of a
FF 24 x 36 body because the market is smaller.  Pentax 35mm body/lens 
owners

out number Pentax 645 owners by a large factor.  Can't begin to guess what
it is, 100-to-1, 1000-to-1?

3. Moving to a 645 format is much costlier to non-645 system owners because
they must buy into a whole new system.  I'd personally be more likely to 
buy
a FF Canon or Nikon 24 x 36 body if I was going to change systems.  Last 
but

not least it would still fit in the same camera bag. :-)

4. Pentax can do the in body sensor crop when DA lenses are attached,
preserving the usefulness of the DA lens series for those that have
purchased them.

5. It can't be any harder for Pentax to design and manufacture a FF 24 x 36
body than the 645.  They have all the basics. Yes they would need to
reeingineer the image processing engine, have a larger LCD,  and other
firmware/hardware changes, but that's a given with any new camera model.
The only thing really holding them back would be whether they can obtain a
sensor at a price point that will put the resulting product within reach of
a large number of customers.



REPLY:

1. The fact that Nikon and Canon have FF camera on the market doesn't make
it easier for Pentax to sell one. As Nikon and Canon FF bodies consist
together at about 1% of the market the potential sales volume for a Pentax
FF is minuscule indeed. I'm sure that the FF market share will increase but
not significantly  in the next couple of years. As an FF Pentax will be
compared to Nikon and Canon FF camera it needs to be equal in other
departments as well; not just the sensor.



It's about brand image, not making it easier.  I agree other things need to 
be updated also.  If Pentax were to have only 3 DSLR's on the market, $500 
range entry level, $1000 dollar range mid level, $2000/2500 FF body, I 
suspect those buying the high end will be > 1%.  It would certainly be a 
higher number than those buying a 645D.




2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as noone is
really selling any. Mamiya is a microscopic player several times bankrupt
and until a major player in digital cameras actually market an MF digital
camera, the market simply won't happen. Also, the size of the market is
dependent on the price of the 645D; an unknown at this point. My guess is
that a 645D at twice the price of an FF Pentax K-mount Nikon killer will
sell twice as much as that FF camera.
As for lenses; there are much more pofessional grade Pentax MF lenses out
there than Pentax K-mount pro glass. Most of the Pentax K-mount lenses are
kit zooms and the 50/2 lens. None of them use by folks likely to buy a FF
Pentax DSLR. All MF lenses are basically pro lenses in this regard and
Pentax got a significant market share in the MF world; up to 50%.



If there's really no market at present it would be rather foolish for Pentax 
to sell to it, I think.




3. As Pentax MF cameras are among the most popular MF systems of all times
there are plenty of potential users for this camera. Besides, there are
those who will want a sensor twice the size of any Nikon and Canon thus
obtaining image quality not available from those brands; perhaps optimized
for resolution rather than speed or high ISO performance.



They are?  I was pretty sure it was Hassleblad.  If they're not making a 
67D, for all those legacy 67 lenses, you can subtract those customers out of 
your count.



5. It is much harder for Pentax to manufacture a K-mount FF camera than the
645D as the FF camera will need to compete with Nikon and Canon whereas the
645D will outperform Nikon and Canon in image quality and compete with
obscenely priced digital backs. In addition, the 645D is built around the
old 645 chassis, mirror, and finder system. Long since payed for. Its
electronics is derived from the K10D or coming K-mount bodies.
It also doesn't face the same dem

Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Mafud? (whoops)...



Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:48:15 +
>
>colostomy bag?
>  -- Original message --
>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > ,,,or douchebag.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 10/20/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Dirtbag" shouldn't be overlooked.
> > >
> > > Jack
> > > --- Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ah, you've forgotten the venerable Barfbag !
> > > >
> > > > Kenneth Waller
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: "mike wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> > > > camera(s)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Cotty wrote:
> > > > >> On 19/10/07, Christian, discombobulated, unleashed:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>I thought Cotty was the only one able to bestow shitbag status on
> > > > a list
> > > > >>>member.  I'm feeling that my exclusive club is becoming over run
> > > > with
> > > > >>>pseudo-shitbags.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The pecking order is
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1. Shitbag
> > > > >> 2. Fartbag
> > > > >> 3. Sleazebag.
> > > > >
> > > > > Honourable mention:
> > > > > Ratbag
> >
> > --
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It 
would not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You 
wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:58:38 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"It's been reported here that the DA lenses generally cover very nearly the 
>image circle required by 35mm film, so
>perhaps they would be perfect for something like 1.3x. Or, I believe 
>someone talked about 1.2x, too;"
>
>-
>
>Some do, some don't.
>
>Speaking only for my own preferences and cognitive limitations...I find it 
>is enough to have to remember two angles-of-view for each of my older 
>lenses. I draw the line at two. Having to remember three exceeds what I 
>would be willing to do.
>
>A sensor with a new crop would require a new batch of wide angle lenses, 
>and wide-to-tele zooms. Having got just about what I need for APS-C (except 
>I want a DA* 400), I would be unhappy to have to start buying another new 
>set of lenses.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

The Canon 1D series are 1.3x crop, as is the Leica M8 and the 
(discontinued) Leica DMR for the R8/R9.

-Adam


Tom C wrote:
> Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It 
> would not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You 
> wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...
> 
> 
> Tom C.
> 
>> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:58:38 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>>
>> "It's been reported here that the DA lenses generally cover very nearly the 
>> image circle required by 35mm film, so
>> perhaps they would be perfect for something like 1.3x. Or, I believe 
>> someone talked about 1.2x, too;"
>>
>> -
>>
>> Some do, some don't.
>>
>> Speaking only for my own preferences and cognitive limitations...I find it 
>> is enough to have to remember two angles-of-view for each of my older 
>> lenses. I draw the line at two. Having to remember three exceeds what I 
>> would be willing to do.
>>
>> A sensor with a new crop would require a new batch of wide angle lenses, 
>> and wide-to-tele zooms. Having got just about what I need for APS-C (except 
>> I want a DA* 400), I would be unhappy to have to start buying another new 
>> set of lenses.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:32:52 +0800

On 10/20/07, Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as no one 
is

> really selling any.

So what makes you think Pentax can do any better than Hassleblad,
Maymia, Leaf etc?

If no one is really selling any now, and the size of the potential
market is unknown, isn't it a risky move to develop a product that may
not sell in any great numbers?

Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
than the current products on the market?

Cheers,

Dave



Have to say it:


Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
than the current products on the market?


Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be hard 
to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It makes me 
wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the stores selling 
at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at $699.  I saw an *ist D 
online yesterday for $1299!


In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.

Tom C.



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:32:52 +0800

On 10/20/07, Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as no one 
is

> really selling any.

So what makes you think Pentax can do any better than Hassleblad,
Maymia, Leaf etc?

If no one is really selling any now, and the size of the potential
market is unknown, isn't it a risky move to develop a product that may
not sell in any great numbers?

Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
than the current products on the market?

Cheers,

Dave



Have to say it:


Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
than the current products on the market?


Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be hard 
to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It makes me 
wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the stores selling 
at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at $699.  I saw an *ist D 
online yesterday for $1299!


In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.

Tom C.



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Given the reports on Hoya's management priorities, I can't see them allowing 
Pentax to embark down a road on a niche-market, low-volume product.


The simple fact is that 645 format MF cameras are off the radar of the vast 
majority of the camera buying public.


It would be a stupid business move.  The only people it would make happy is 
those interested in a 645D from Pentax, which is very few people. While 
Canon and Nikon do not likely view Pentax as a threat, it might make them 
happy too.  I'm sure their would be quite a few chuckles among their 
engineers and in the boardrooms, to see them wasting resources and effort.


Like I've said before, Pentax has received a little recognition with the 
K10D.  They need to capitalize on that with another "hit" product, not a 
niche speciality product which will have little reach in the market.


Common sense I think.

Tom C.


From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:38:17 -0400

645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
lenses.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In fact, more likely than a full frame camera and a line of lenses is 
the 645D. Lenses for that camera are already in production. If Pentax wants 
to go pro, that seems to be the only logical way to do it.

> Paul
>  -- Original message --
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to introduce a 
camera that
>> can't use the lenses that you've just introduced. The DA* 60-250 hasn't 
even
>> seen the light of day yet. Plus, most of the full frame lenses seem to 
have been
>> discontinued. I suspect that the only ones being sold now are existing 
stock. Of
>> course we might one day see a full frame camera along with a new line 
of lenses,

>> but I doubt that Pentax is ready for that now.
>> Paul
>>  -- Original message --
>> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>
>>> >From what Adam has told us about the newest sensors, 12
>>>
>>>> megapixels with good noise characteristics might well be possible
>>>> at 1.5.
>>>>
>>> Could be. But every so often I look at what Nikon's getting from 12
>>> megapixels at full-frame...
>>>
>>>
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>
>


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Sandy Harris]

On 10/20/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It
> does not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You
> wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...

Leica M8 is 1.33 or so.

-- 
Sandy Harris,
Nanjing, China

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RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Comments below:

Tom C.


From: Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Subject: RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:05:53 +0200

Tom Wrote:

Are you sure those lenses are in production?  Designed maybe, but I would
think otherwise in the same status as the 645D.  They're not making lenses
for a camera that's not on the production line.

I'm not expecting it or holding my breath, but to me it makes *more sense*
to produce a FF 24 X 36 body than the 645D. Here's why:

1. Canon and Nikon both now have FF bodies on the market.  If Pentax can 
get

one out in short order they can be #3 to do so, ahead of Sony and Olympus.
That would be a big feather in Pentax's cap.

2. The sales of a 645D would be relatively small compared to the sales of a
FF 24 x 36 body because the market is smaller.  Pentax 35mm body/lens 
owners

out number Pentax 645 owners by a large factor.  Can't begin to guess what
it is, 100-to-1, 1000-to-1?

3. Moving to a 645 format is much costlier to non-645 system owners because
they must buy into a whole new system.  I'd personally be more likely to 
buy
a FF Canon or Nikon 24 x 36 body if I was going to change systems.  Last 
but

not least it would still fit in the same camera bag. :-)

4. Pentax can do the in body sensor crop when DA lenses are attached,
preserving the usefulness of the DA lens series for those that have
purchased them.

5. It can't be any harder for Pentax to design and manufacture a FF 24 x 36
body than the 645.  They have all the basics. Yes they would need to
reeingineer the image processing engine, have a larger LCD,  and other
firmware/hardware changes, but that's a given with any new camera model.
The only thing really holding them back would be whether they can obtain a
sensor at a price point that will put the resulting product within reach of
a large number of customers.



REPLY:

1. The fact that Nikon and Canon have FF camera on the market doesn't make
it easier for Pentax to sell one. As Nikon and Canon FF bodies consist
together at about 1% of the market the potential sales volume for a Pentax
FF is minuscule indeed. I'm sure that the FF market share will increase but
not significantly  in the next couple of years. As an FF Pentax will be
compared to Nikon and Canon FF camera it needs to be equal in other
departments as well; not just the sensor.



It's about brand image, not making it easier.  I agree other things need to 
be updated also.  If Pentax were to have only 3 DSLR's on the market, $500 
range entry level, $1000 dollar range mid level, $2000/2500 FF body, I 
suspect those buying the high end will be > 1%.  It would certainly be a 
higher number than those buying a 645D.




2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as noone is
really selling any. Mamiya is a microscopic player several times bankrupt
and until a major player in digital cameras actually market an MF digital
camera, the market simply won't happen. Also, the size of the market is
dependent on the price of the 645D; an unknown at this point. My guess is
that a 645D at twice the price of an FF Pentax K-mount Nikon killer will
sell twice as much as that FF camera.
As for lenses; there are much more pofessional grade Pentax MF lenses out
there than Pentax K-mount pro glass. Most of the Pentax K-mount lenses are
kit zooms and the 50/2 lens. None of them use by folks likely to buy a FF
Pentax DSLR. All MF lenses are basically pro lenses in this regard and
Pentax got a significant market share in the MF world; up to 50%.



If there's really no market at present it would be rather foolish for Pentax 
to sell to it, I think.




3. As Pentax MF cameras are among the most popular MF systems of all times
there are plenty of potential users for this camera. Besides, there are
those who will want a sensor twice the size of any Nikon and Canon thus
obtaining image quality not available from those brands; perhaps optimized
for resolution rather than speed or high ISO performance.



They are?  I was pretty sure it was Hassleblad.  If they're not making a 
67D, for all those legacy 67 lenses, you can subtract those customers out of 
your count.



5. It is much harder for Pentax to manufacture a K-mount FF camera than the
645D as the FF camera will need to compete with Nikon and Canon whereas the
645D will outperform Nikon and Canon in image quality and compete with
obscenely priced digital backs. In addition, the 645D is built around the
old 645 chassis, mirror, and finder system. Long since payed for. Its
electronics is derived from the K10D or coming K-mount bodies.
It also doesn't face the same demand for fast AF and image processing speed
as a Nikon/Canon FF competitor will as it will be targeted at high
resolution uses; typically landscape and studio use.

Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did have a 
respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
>645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
>Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
>think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
>for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
>lenses."
>
>All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock. 
>Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645 
>lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It 
does not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You 
wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:58:38 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"It's been reported here that the DA lenses generally cover very nearly the 
>image circle required by 35mm film, so
>perhaps they would be perfect for something like 1.3x. Or, I believe 
>someone talked about 1.2x, too;"
>
>-
>
>Some do, some don't.
>
>Speaking only for my own preferences and cognitive limitations...I find it 
>is enough to have to remember two angles-of-view for each of my older 
>lenses. I draw the line at two. Having to remember three exceeds what I 
>would be willing to do.
>
>A sensor with a new crop would require a new batch of wide angle lenses, 
>and wide-to-tele zooms. Having got just about what I need for APS-C (except 
>I want a DA* 400), I would be unhappy to have to start buying another new 
>set of lenses.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[pnstenquist]

Tom,
You know Hoya management? Can you introduce them to the rest of us?
Paul
 -- Original message --
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
> with those holding the purse strings.
> 
> I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
> Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.
> 
> Tom C.
> 
> On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
> >
> > -Adam
> >
> > Tom C wrote:
> > > Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> > > have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom C.
> > >
> > >> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> > >> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> > >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
> > >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> > >>
> > >> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
> > >> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
> > >> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
> > >> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
> > >> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
> > >> lenses."
> > >>
> > >> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> > > Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> > > lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
> > >> Joe
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Pål Jensen]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



> Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?


I think it is wrong to think medium format. Medium format used a certain 
film type that effectively put limits on its market penetration. A 645D is 
just another digital camera but with outstanding image quality. Price is the 
limiting factor and is at present an unknown.

Pål 



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
with those holding the purse strings.

I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.

Tom C.

On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
>
> -Adam
>
> Tom C wrote:
> > Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> > have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?
> >
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> >> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
> >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> >>
> >> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
> >> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
> >> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
> >> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
> >> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
> >> lenses."
> >>
> >> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> > Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> > lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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> >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Bob Blakely]

They're not really cameras anymore. They're optical computers. We think of 
the LX as a camera circa 1980. We should think of the latest crop of digital 
cameras as circa 10:30 AM.

Regards,
Bob...

"Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection."
  -Jean Luc Godard

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>On 10/20/07, Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as no one 
> > is
> > really selling any.
>
>So what makes you think Pentax can do any better than Hassleblad,
>Maymia, Leaf etc?
>
>If no one is really selling any now, and the size of the potential
>market is unknown, isn't it a risky move to develop a product that may
>not sell in any great numbers?
>
>Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
>than the current products on the market?

Have to say it:

>Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
>than the current products on the market?

Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be
hard to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It
makes me wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the
stores selling at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at
$699.  I saw an *ist D online yesterday for $1299!

In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Pål Jensen]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be
hard to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It
makes me wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the
stores selling at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at
$699.  I saw an *ist D online yesterday for $1299!


REPLY:

This is in the US and reflect Pentax US policy. It is expensive in the rest 
of the world. I'm sure Pentax is making money on it as their imaging 
division is going in plus due to DSLR sales... 



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.

-Adam

Tom C wrote:
> Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?
> 
> 
> Tom C.
> 
>> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>>
>> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
>> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
>> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
>> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
>> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
>> lenses."
>>
>> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:32:52 +0800
>
>On 10/20/07, Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as no one is
> > really selling any.
>
>So what makes you think Pentax can do any better than Hassleblad,
>Maymia, Leaf etc?
>
>If no one is really selling any now, and the size of the potential
>market is unknown, isn't it a risky move to develop a product that may
>not sell in any great numbers?
>
>Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
>than the current products on the market?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Dave
>

Have to say it:

>Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
>than the current products on the market?

Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be
hard to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It
makes me wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the
stores selling at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at
$699.  I saw an *ist D online yesterday for $1299!

In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.

Tom C.

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Mafud? (whoops)...



Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:48:15 +
>
>colostomy bag?
>  -- Original message --
>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > ,,,or douchebag.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 10/20/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Dirtbag" shouldn't be overlooked.
> > >
> > > Jack
> > > --- Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ah, you've forgotten the venerable Barfbag !
> > > >
> > > > Kenneth Waller
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: "mike wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> > > > camera(s)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Cotty wrote:
> > > > >> On 19/10/07, Christian, discombobulated, unleashed:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>I thought Cotty was the only one able to bestow shitbag status on
> > > > a list
> > > > >>>member.  I'm feeling that my exclusive club is becoming over run
> > > > with
> > > > >>>pseudo-shitbags.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The pecking order is
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1. Shitbag
> > > > >> 2. Fartbag
> > > > >> 3. Sleazebag.
> > > > >
> > > > > Honourable mention:
> > > > > Ratbag
> >
> > --
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> > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
> > follow
> > the directions.
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
>645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
>Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
>think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
>for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
>lenses."
>
>All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>--
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>http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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