RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
Sorry but I do not agree its the dominant musical form here, there, or anywhere. You are mistaken. Pop/Rock is by far more dominant than anything else in sales and radio airplay. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 8:20 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:47 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: OK, there are some, but I am not going to buy for one second the premise that the majority of newly mfd record sales in 2009 is dance records, that is just way way too small of a genre/market compared to reissue rock, jazz, classical and the whole thing doesn't make sense from the audiophile standpoint either, most people buying records in the year 2009 a doing so for solely for sound quality reasons and want the best sounding recordings of all time ( reissues), not because they are apprenticing to be a pro DJ and want to sping the latest Madonna record... I know lots of guys with great systems and LP rigs, and none of them are doing it for DJ reasons or dance music, NONE. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) And your provincialism shows. Dance and electronica are huge markets overall. It's the dominant musical form in Europe and Asia and extremely popular in North America (Coming in fourth after RB/Hip-Hop, Pop and Country). Most people buying records today are doing it because the latest remixes's and tracksare only available in 7 or 12 form from stores. A lot of dance music is only ever released in MP3/AAC and 7 or 12 Vinyl forms with no CD release at all as the genre is almost entirely single-driven (albums are rare in Dance music, most CD's are compilations Those that aren't are mostly buying Brit-rock singles (pretty much every major single from any significant UK band active today is available as a 7 single). Of course the guys you know aren't doing it for DJ reasons or dance music. They're most likely Audiophiles and older and thus completely non-repressentative of the music market which is utterly dominated by the 16-25 year olds who are far and away the primary consumers. The Dance music market is even more oriented towards the younger crowd than the overall music market. Talk to some of them sometime and you'll be surprised who's got vinyl. The numbers simply don't lie. And you haven't provided a single one which contradicts the numbers I've posted. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 9:09 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: Your post is not clear if your being serious or sarcastic. I will state what I have been saying all along, I don't believe the majority of new vinyl sales in 2009 is dance records as suggested, its mostly reissues of classic rock, jazz and classical. I have been follwing the new LP market for 20 years since the low point in '89 or so when everybody thought vinyl was dead for good. While there are a lot of dance releases on vinyl that are new for 2009 music, that's not where the bulk of vinyl sales come from. It's now an expensive audiophile format dominated by new release reissues of classic recordings from the latter half of the 30th century. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Vinyl is HUGE in the hip-hop, dance and electronica worlds and they're far, far larger markets than the Audiophile market. I'd strongly suspect that those markets outsell the classic rock, jazz and classical markets by a large margin. The Audiophile market is tiny compared to a market where vinyl is a big deal and where large acts can fill stadiums on a regular basis. Big acts You aren't a proper dance or electronica DJ unless you're spinning on a pair of turntables. Jazz and classical are tiny markets overall, classic rock is larger, but compared to the dance, hip-hop and electronica markets it's also fairly small these days. If you're involved with the classic rock, jazz and classical vinyl scene you'll likely never see the other side since they don't really mix well. But the big acts can sell 0.1% of their album sales in vinyl and still sell 10,000+ copies per album. That adds up right quick when you have a couple dozen major releases a year in that segment (and thousands of smaller ones). -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
dream on, while there are very large number of NEW MUSiC titles in hip hop and dance, this is not the same as overall new LPs mfg and sold in all genres and including reissues. Dance/hip hop titles are popular on vinyl for DJS, the average dance/hip fan doesn't use LP or even CD either, they are on the free MP3 train with nearly everybody else. You are completely wrong about what the LP market is today, its for audiophiles and high end gear, there is no point in even using vinyl unless you get better sound or are a DJ but Id bet music loving audiophiles with LP rigs outnumbers DJs by 100 to 1. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 12:14 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 9:09 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: Your post is not clear if your being serious or sarcastic. I will state what I have been saying all along, I don't believe the majority of new vinyl sales in 2009 is dance records as suggested, its mostly reissues of classic rock, jazz and classical. I have been follwing the new LP market for 20 years since the low point in '89 or so when everybody thought vinyl was dead for good. While there are a lot of dance releases on vinyl that are new for 2009 music, that's not where the bulk of vinyl sales come from. It's now an expensive audiophile format dominated by new release reissues of classic recordings from the latter half of the 30th century. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Vinyl is HUGE in the hip-hop, dance and electronica worlds and they're far, far larger markets than the Audiophile market. I'd strongly suspect that those markets outsell the classic rock, jazz and classical markets by a large margin. The Audiophile market is tiny compared to a market where vinyl is a big deal and where large acts can fill stadiums on a regular basis. Big acts You aren't a proper dance or electronica DJ unless you're spinning on a pair of turntables. Jazz and classical are tiny markets overall, classic rock is larger, but compared to the dance, hip-hop and electronica markets it's also fairly small these days. If you're involved with the classic rock, jazz and classical vinyl scene you'll likely never see the other side since they don't really mix well. But the big acts can sell 0.1% of their album sales in vinyl and still sell 10,000+ copies per album. That adds up right quick when you have a couple dozen major releases a year in that segment (and thousands of smaller ones). -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 1:57 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: dream on, while there are very large number of NEW MUSiC titles in hip hop and dance, this is not the same as overall new LPs mfg and sold in all genres and including reissues. Dance/hip hop titles are popular on vinyl for DJS, the average dance/hip fan doesn't use LP or even CD either, they are on the free MP3 train with nearly everybody else. You are completely wrong about what the LP market is today, its for audiophiles and high end gear, there is no point in even using vinyl unless you get better sound or are a DJ but Id bet music loving audiophiles with LP rigs outnumbers DJs by 100 to 1. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Well, apart from the fact that there's a zillion kids who want to be DJ's who snap up that stuff. DJ'ing is the electronica and dance equivalent of being in garage band and having a turntable and some vinyl is as necessary to that as a guitar and amp are to a wannabe rockstar. Lots of low-level involvement, lots of sales, mostly from music stores for the hardware (rather than stores which sell Home Theater and Audio stuff which caters to the market you're familiar with). You won't see the sales because the people in question don't buy from the same sources you do. They buy their turntables online or from the local music store and their vinyl comes from specialty shops which cater to the hip-hop/electronica/dance market rather than specialty shops which cater to the audiophile market. And in any major city the former outnumber the latter by a fair margin. Also Vinyl is VERY popular with the dance and electronica markets. You essentially can't be a serious electronica fan and not have an LP setup. Dance is more CD-oriented than electronica but still has a major LP focus for serious fans. Note that the electronica, hip-hop and dance market is large enough that if even a fraction of CD sales of each album occur in vinyl it will have significantly larger aggregate sales than the (tiny) audiophile market. And that's the largest portion of the music market today (Dance, hip-hop and electronica are the largest music markets globally). Music loving audiophiles are not a large market and they don't tend to buy as much volume. Teenagers who want to be famous are a large market and one who tends to buy a lot of volume. I'll note here that I spend a fairly large amount of time around 18-21 year olds (Being a university student myself, albeit a fair bit older). Most of the ones I know who are into the dance or electronica scene have an LP setup and collection. Many are avid collectors of LP's. Hip-hop fans are less likely to have that sort of setup unless they are aspiring DJ's, mostly because there's less of a 'exclusive release' market for Hip-Hop LP's as compared to electronica/dance where exclusive LP editions are common for major releases. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
[...] Music loving audiophiles are not a large market and they don't tend to buy as much volume. Teenagers who want to be famous are a large market and one who tends to buy a lot of volume. [...] Here are some hard stats from people who know: http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo/cd_sales_down_lp_sales_up -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: [...] Music loving audiophiles are not a large market and they don't tend to buy as much volume. Teenagers who want to be famous are a large market and one who tends to buy a lot of volume. [...] Here are some hard stats from people who know: http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo/cd_sales_down_lp_sales_up And some real-world stats: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1529059/Why-singles-are-top-of-the-pops-again.html Those are UK numbers though, which pretty strongly show that the big seller is 7 singles, with over a million sold in 2005 in the UK alone. Over here, for full albums it's: http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/news/neilson-soundscan-2008-sales-f/ with only 2 classic rock reissues on the list (along with a pair of non-classic reissues and 5 new albums). Note that this is for albums and the dance/electronica/hip-hop scene is mostly singles. One of those albums is however an electronica release, Third from Portishead. It's pretty clear from that sales list that Audiophiles are not the biggest driver of LP album sales unless they're also big Radiohead fans. And that the market for LP's is not as big as for singles (I wasn't able to find any US sales numbers for singles. But if the much smaller UK market is selling 1 million+ singles, the US market is likely even larger for singles than for albums). -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On 23/11/2009, Adam Maas a...@mawz.ca wrote: And some real-world stats: Not fair, stifling a good argument with real world stats! -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
And some real-world stats: Not fair, stifling a good argument with real world stats! They leave plenty of room for creative interpretation! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On 23/11/2009, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: And some real-world stats: Not fair, stifling a good argument with real world stats! They leave plenty of room for creative interpretation! But we already have an abundance of that. ;-) -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
we are talking about newly mfd record sales. There are almost no record brick and mortar stores left now. So basically LP records are sold online now. I can show you a whole bunch of record retailers selling lots of newly mfd. reissue classic rock, pop, jazz, and classical. Show me show outlets where all this tons of dance and hip-hop stuff is for sale ? ? ? ? -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 1:57 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: dream on, while there are very large number of NEW MUSiC titles in hip hop and dance, this is not the same as overall new LPs mfg and sold in all genres and including reissues. Dance/hip hop titles are popular on vinyl for DJS, the average dance/hip fan doesn't use LP or even CD either, they are on the free MP3 train with nearly everybody else. You are completely wrong about what the LP market is today, its for audiophiles and high end gear, there is no point in even using vinyl unless you get better sound or are a DJ but Id bet music loving audiophiles with LP rigs outnumbers DJs by 100 to 1. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Well, apart from the fact that there's a zillion kids who want to be DJ's who snap up that stuff. DJ'ing is the electronica and dance equivalent of being in garage band and having a turntable and some vinyl is as necessary to that as a guitar and amp are to a wannabe rockstar. Lots of low-level involvement, lots of sales, mostly from music stores for the hardware (rather than stores which sell Home Theater and Audio stuff which caters to the market you're familiar with). You won't see the sales because the people in question don't buy from the same sources you do. They buy their turntables online or from the local music store and their vinyl comes from specialty shops which cater to the hip-hop/electronica/dance market rather than specialty shops which cater to the audiophile market. And in any major city the former outnumber the latter by a fair margin. Also Vinyl is VERY popular with the dance and electronica markets. You essentially can't be a serious electronica fan and not have an LP setup. Dance is more CD-oriented than electronica but still has a major LP focus for serious fans. Note that the electronica, hip-hop and dance market is large enough that if even a fraction of CD sales of each album occur in vinyl it will have significantly larger aggregate sales than the (tiny) audiophile market. And that's the largest portion of the music market today (Dance, hip-hop and electronica are the largest music markets globally). Music loving audiophiles are not a large market and they don't tend to buy as much volume. Teenagers who want to be famous are a large market and one who tends to buy a lot of volume. I'll note here that I spend a fairly large amount of time around 18-21 year olds (Being a university student myself, albeit a fair bit older). Most of the ones I know who are into the dance or electronica scene have an LP setup and collection. Many are avid collectors of LP's. Hip-hop fans are less likely to have that sort of setup unless they are aspiring DJ's, mostly because there's less of a 'exclusive release' market for Hip-Hop LP's as compared to electronica/dance where exclusive LP editions are common for major releases. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
these are the top sellers, these are not total sales. A few new for 2009 releases may out sell any or even ALL the particular classic rock, jazz, titles but in total there are tons tons tons more of the classic rock, jazz, classical titles coming out and selling. The entire top 10 sellers could be radiohead, but that doesn't mean the marker isnt dominated by sales of reissues, it IS. and they are audiophiles buying those for sound quality reasons, not because they wanna be DJs. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:40 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: [...] Music loving audiophiles are not a large market and they don't tend to buy as much volume. Teenagers who want to be famous are a large market and one who tends to buy a lot of volume. [...] Here are some hard stats from people who know: http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo/cd_sales_down_lp_sales_up And some real-world stats: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1529059/Why-singles-are-top-of-th e-pops-again.html Those are UK numbers though, which pretty strongly show that the big seller is 7 singles, with over a million sold in 2005 in the UK alone. Over here, for full albums it's: http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/news/neilson-soundscan-2008-sal es-f/ with only 2 classic rock reissues on the list (along with a pair of non-classic reissues and 5 new albums). Note that this is for albums and the dance/electronica/hip-hop scene is mostly singles. One of those albums is however an electronica release, Third from Portishead. It's pretty clear from that sales list that Audiophiles are not the biggest driver of LP album sales unless they're also big Radiohead fans. And that the market for LP's is not as big as for singles (I wasn't able to find any US sales numbers for singles. But if the much smaller UK market is selling 1 million+ singles, the US market is likely even larger for singles than for albums). -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:06 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: we are talking about newly mfd record sales. There are almost no record brick and mortar stores left now. So basically LP records are sold online now. I can show you a whole bunch of record retailers selling lots of newly mfd. reissue classic rock, pop, jazz, and classical. Show me show outlets where all this tons of dance and hip-hop stuff is for sale ? ? ? ? -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Actually, there's plenty of brick and mortar stores left for specialty stuff, especially in the larger cities. Online, the selection is huge. http://www.vinylrevival.com/lists/12inch.shtml http://www.undergroundhiphop.com/store/listing.asp?Format=12 http://www.fatbeats.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=39 http://www.ukdancerecords.com/ http://www.juno.co.uk/ All from quick googling for '12 Single' and 'dance vinyl record', each is a high first page hit. Oh, and at Juno.co.uk (a major vendor), this is from the 'new this week' with vinyl selected. http://www.juno.co.uk/all/this-week/vinyl/ 389 listings. For this week alone. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: these are the top sellers, these are not total sales. A few new for 2009 releases may out sell any or even ALL the particular classic rock, jazz, titles but in total there are tons tons tons more of the classic rock, jazz, classical titles coming out and selling. The entire top 10 sellers could be radiohead, but that doesn't mean the marker isnt dominated by sales of reissues, it IS. and they are audiophiles buying those for sound quality reasons, not because they wanna be DJs. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Well, aside from the fact that those are the top selling albums, and reissues don't feature prominently aside from one massively hyped release (Abbey Road) and Floyd, which is a perennial teenage favourite. And the problem that singles aren't counted at all by Neilsen, where they are counted in the UK they absolutely dominate a smaller market (and singles are almost all new stuff, not reissues). All the sales data available indicates that it's the 16-25 set which has been driving vinyl sales and they are rarely either Audiophiles or reissue collectors. I don't doubt that reissues dominate the audiophile market. Audiophiles are mostly older and will primarily be looking for the music of their youth (which is true for most everybody over 30) so reissues will dominate that market. But that's only a fraction of the vinyl market overall as the sales numbers I linked to above indicate. Unless you have sales numbers indicating that reissues in the audiophile market are collectively a million+ market (as fresh singles are in the UK alone) I think the numbers are pretty cut dried. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
OK, there are some, but I am not going to buy for one second the premise that the majority of newly mfd record sales in 2009 is dance records, that is just way way too small of a genre/market compared to reissue rock, jazz, classical and the whole thing doesn't make sense from the audiophile standpoint either, most people buying records in the year 2009 a doing so for solely for sound quality reasons and want the best sounding recordings of all time ( reissues), not because they are apprenticing to be a pro DJ and want to sping the latest Madonna record... I know lots of guys with great systems and LP rigs, and none of them are doing it for DJ reasons or dance music, NONE. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:19 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:06 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: we are talking about newly mfd record sales. There are almost no record brick and mortar stores left now. So basically LP records are sold online now. I can show you a whole bunch of record retailers selling lots of newly mfd. reissue classic rock, pop, jazz, and classical. Show me show outlets where all this tons of dance and hip-hop stuff is for sale ? ? ? ? -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Actually, there's plenty of brick and mortar stores left for specialty stuff, especially in the larger cities. Online, the selection is huge. http://www.vinylrevival.com/lists/12inch.shtml http://www.undergroundhiphop.com/store/listing.asp?Format=12 http://www.fatbeats.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=39 http://www.ukdancerecords.com/ http://www.juno.co.uk/ All from quick googling for '12 Single' and 'dance vinyl record', each is a high first page hit. Oh, and at Juno.co.uk (a major vendor), this is from the 'new this week' with vinyl selected. http://www.juno.co.uk/all/this-week/vinyl/ 389 listings. For this week alone. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
reissues dominate the audiophile market, and the audiophile market dominates drives all new record sales in 2009. LPs are only really being bought by audiophiles. Why would anyone buy lps for any other reason than sound quaity, they cost much more than CD or mp3, and if you don't have the right gear or care to make them sound better than CD, why bother with the drawbacks of vinyl?? Nope there is no logic in the new vinyl market being dominated by dance music, DJ wannabes or non audiophiles, just cant buy that one. The other factor is age, most people using vinyl I believe are older demographic, not the DJ or Dance type demographic either. Im now saying there arent some young people getting into vinyl for the first time, but in my experience with dealers, at record shows, etc, its mostly older people who have used vinyl all along for years, not newbies. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:28 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: these are the top sellers, these are not total sales. A few new for 2009 releases may out sell any or even ALL the particular classic rock, jazz, titles but in total there are tons tons tons more of the classic rock, jazz, classical titles coming out and selling. The entire top 10 sellers could be radiohead, but that doesn't mean the marker isnt dominated by sales of reissues, it IS. and they are audiophiles buying those for sound quality reasons, not because they wanna be DJs. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Well, aside from the fact that those are the top selling albums, and reissues don't feature prominently aside from one massively hyped release (Abbey Road) and Floyd, which is a perennial teenage favourite. And the problem that singles aren't counted at all by Neilsen, where they are counted in the UK they absolutely dominate a smaller market (and singles are almost all new stuff, not reissues). All the sales data available indicates that it's the 16-25 set which has been driving vinyl sales and they are rarely either Audiophiles or reissue collectors. I don't doubt that reissues dominate the audiophile market. Audiophiles are mostly older and will primarily be looking for the music of their youth (which is true for most everybody over 30) so reissues will dominate that market. But that's only a fraction of the vinyl market overall as the sales numbers I linked to above indicate. Unless you have sales numbers indicating that reissues in the audiophile market are collectively a million+ market (as fresh singles are in the UK alone) I think the numbers are pretty cut dried. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: [...] Music loving audiophiles are not a large market and they don't tend to buy as much volume. Teenagers who want to be famous are a large market and one who tends to buy a lot of volume. [...] Here are some hard stats from people who know: http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo/cd_sales_down_lp_sales_up LPs are so last year. 8-track it where it's at. http://boingboing.net/2009/07/05/cheap-trick-releases.html -- Scott Loveless Cigarette-free since December 14th, 2008 http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:47 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: OK, there are some, but I am not going to buy for one second the premise that the majority of newly mfd record sales in 2009 is dance records, that is just way way too small of a genre/market compared to reissue rock, jazz, classical and the whole thing doesn't make sense from the audiophile standpoint either, most people buying records in the year 2009 a doing so for solely for sound quality reasons and want the best sounding recordings of all time ( reissues), not because they are apprenticing to be a pro DJ and want to sping the latest Madonna record... I know lots of guys with great systems and LP rigs, and none of them are doing it for DJ reasons or dance music, NONE. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) And your provincialism shows. Dance and electronica are huge markets overall. It's the dominant musical form in Europe and Asia and extremely popular in North America (Coming in fourth after RB/Hip-Hop, Pop and Country). Most people buying records today are doing it because the latest remixes's and tracksare only available in 7 or 12 form from stores. A lot of dance music is only ever released in MP3/AAC and 7 or 12 Vinyl forms with no CD release at all as the genre is almost entirely single-driven (albums are rare in Dance music, most CD's are compilations Those that aren't are mostly buying Brit-rock singles (pretty much every major single from any significant UK band active today is available as a 7 single). Of course the guys you know aren't doing it for DJ reasons or dance music. They're most likely Audiophiles and older and thus completely non-repressentative of the music market which is utterly dominated by the 16-25 year olds who are far and away the primary consumers. The Dance music market is even more oriented towards the younger crowd than the overall music market. Talk to some of them sometime and you'll be surprised who's got vinyl. The numbers simply don't lie. And you haven't provided a single one which contradicts the numbers I've posted. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On 23/11/2009, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: Why would anyone buy lps for any other reason than sound quaity, they cost much more than CD or mp3, and if you don't have the right gear or care to make them sound better than CD, why bother with the drawbacks of vinyl?? I know John, next he'll be claiming that most DJs claim that direct drive turntables are superior to belt driven! -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 6:57 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: reissues dominate the audiophile market, and the audiophile market dominates drives all new record sales in 2009. LPs are only really being bought by audiophiles. Why would anyone buy lps for any other reason than sound quaity, they cost much more than CD or mp3, and if you don't have the right gear or care to make them sound better than CD, why bother with the drawbacks of vinyl?? Nope there is no logic in the new vinyl market being dominated by dance music, DJ wannabes or non audiophiles, just cant buy that one. The other factor is age, most people using vinyl I believe are older demographic, not the DJ or Dance type demographic either. Im now saying there arent some young people getting into vinyl for the first time, but in my experience with dealers, at record shows, etc, its mostly older people who have used vinyl all along for years, not newbies. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Actually there's a very simple logic behind it. Most singles are moderate run items with quick turnarounds and a short shelf life. This is well suited to vinyl production but poorly suited to CD production which is rather non-economic for short runs. If you're going to be charging $15-20 for a single anyways, might as well make it vinyl. Especially since you'll need to do the vinyl run anyways for the working DJ's and wannabe's. And record shows are of course oriented towards the older, audiophile crowd. Which is very non-representative of the overall market (and of the music market in general). You are only seeing a small side of things because your choices where to shop self-select for it. The only kids you're going to see there are hipsters buying vintage junk. Hit some good clubs and some dance/electronica oriented stores and you'll see tons of vinyl. And provide some actual numbers on that supposed million or more copy selling Audiophile market, as that's how big it would have to be to be bigger than Dance and Electronica. The overal US Vinyl market was around 2 million LP's this year and an unknown number of singles. In the UK vinyl singles alone sell over a million copies a year into a market 1/5 the size of the US. And those sales numbers cover all the major label releases but not much of the indie market, which is where a lot of dance, electronica, Hip-Hop and new rock is coming from. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On 2009-11-22 18:20 , Adam Maas wrote: Dance and electronica are huge markets overall. It's the dominant musical form in Europe and Asia and extremely popular in North America (Coming in fourth after RB/Hip-Hop, Pop and Country). thanks for the insight Adam; i had a hunch -- i love that music (although i'm 49, and i love about ten other musics) but i know i don't have a well-rounded sense of it Most people buying records today are doing it because the latest remixes's and tracksare only available in 7 or 12 form from stores. A lot of dance music is only ever released in MP3/AAC and 7 or 12 Vinyl forms with no CD release at all i'm trying to imagine what the analogy would be in photography ... kind of a kooky idea, but how about a TLR which shoots film *and* digital? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:10 PM, steve harley p...@paper-ape.com wrote: On 2009-11-22 18:20 , Adam Maas wrote: Dance and electronica are huge markets overall. It's the dominant musical form in Europe and Asia and extremely popular in North America (Coming in fourth after RB/Hip-Hop, Pop and Country). thanks for the insight Adam; i had a hunch -- i love that music (although i'm 49, and i love about ten other musics) but i know i don't have a well-rounded sense of it I've sort of been hovering around the edges for years. I've got a frien who's a oderately well known Jungle DJ and I used to be involved in the Industrial/Goth scene. I also spend a lot of time with 18-21 year olds, many of whom are into dance or electronica. As for myself, I like Electronica (I'm not as big on dance) but it's only one of my many musical interests and not a primary one. Most people buying records today are doing it because the latest remixes's and tracksare only available in 7 or 12 form from stores. A lot of dance music is only ever released in MP3/AAC and 7 or 12 Vinyl forms with no CD release at all i'm trying to imagine what the analogy would be in photography ... kind of a kooky idea, but how about a TLR which shoots film *and* digital? I'd actually say much of the current film world is similar. Most shoot a combination of digital and older manual focus film, AF film is mostly dead (and the equivalent of CD's, newer, high-tech, lacking the tactile niceties of the odler tech). -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
2009/11/23 steve harley p...@paper-ape.com: i'm trying to imagine what the analogy would be in photography ... kind of a kooky idea, but how about a TLR which shoots film *and* digital? -- Actually close to the mark, only not TLRs. Digital-capable medium format SLRs, and large format view or field cameras with interchangeable backs, will allow analogue and digital capture with the same camera setup if you really must. Shoot film in one magazine, swap to a digital back and repeat the shot. Medium format film and digital frames have become close in size these days. If you shoot 6cm x 4.5 cm you can get practically identical film frames and digital files. AFAIK, single shot large format backs are very cropped compared to their full frame, however scanning backs can yield full frames at the penalty of long exposure durations. regards, Anthony Of what use is lens and light to those who lack in mind and sight (Anon) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
New vinyl releases today are primarily a high cost, $15-$30, high sound quaity, audiophile reissue market from all the indications I have, catalogs, online stores, record reviews, what my friends and assocites buy new on occasion, etc. Dance music in general is a very small genre and generally not audiophile in nature compared to rock, jazz, and classical so its highly unlikely to be the bulk of newly pressed records being sold today. Even if six out of the top ten vinyl sellers were new 2008 music releases, I don't see those as mostly dance, and would not necessisarily mean that that 2008 music dominated or even is a significant percentage of all newly mfgr vinyl sales, there are lots and lots of legacy titles being reissued now/recently on vinyl LP, far more than new 2008 title release on vinyl, the sum of which is probably far more than all six of those top 10 sellers combined. I would also suggest, that with the collapse of music sales due to internet theft, the relatively expensive nature of buying a new mfd LP compared to a CD or MP3 digital version is going to skew new LP sales even further towards the audiophile reissue market in years to come as that's the sole reason left to buy any LPs, better possible sound than CD or mp3. I just don't see the dance/DJ market as being significant in any way compared to the audiophile market, now or in the future. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of steve harley Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:31 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital On 2009-11-20 10:59 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: NO, but I read many music and hi-fi periodicals and see all the vendors catalogs too, its not a market of dance tracks or new title SACDs, it a big reissue market of specially pressed discs, mostly 180gram vinyl. i think it's probably a split market, you're seeing the audiophile side of it and i'm seeing the DJ/pop side though i can find numbers for overall vinyl sales (increasing rapidly, but still a miniscule proportion), and tons of commentary, no one seems to have the numbers by type of release or genre; even Nielsen Soundscan is going to miss a lot of the dance tracks because it doesn't cover all sales; Nielsen, for what it's worth, shows six out of ten top vinyl sellers last year were new releases: http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/news/neilson-soundscan-2008-sa les-f/ but that's not a good way to summarize the market note that i don't buy any type of newly-issued vinyl -- i only buy old scratchy stuff -- more fun and vinyl charm, less fuss Regarding proof to back up my contentions, where?s the proof for yours concerning nre release SACD or dance tracks outselling legacy vinyl reissues i didn't ask for proof, just anything to support what you were stating as fact; unlike you, i don't have a contention here -- i stated my _impression_; and i haven't said anything about SACD at all in this thread meanwhile: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/nov/20/linn-audio-stream ing-cd-players -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
FWIW, heres one data point from a very large and popular vinyl retailer: http://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=topsellersTop_Count=100f ield_cat=5 These kind of reissue titles have been popular for the last 15 years or so when vinyl started rising in popularity again after the near extinction of the late 1980's. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: J.C. O'Connell [mailto:hifis...@gate.net] Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 3:20 AM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'; J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital New vinyl releases today are primarily a high cost, $15-$30, high sound quaity, audiophile reissue market from all the indications I have, catalogs, online stores, record reviews, what my friends and assocites buy new on occasion, etc. Dance music in general is a very small genre and generally not audiophile in nature compared to rock, jazz, and classical so its highly unlikely to be the bulk of newly pressed records being sold today. Even if six out of the top ten vinyl sellers were new 2008 music releases, I don't see those as mostly dance, and would not necessisarily mean that that 2008 music dominated or even is a significant percentage of all newly mfgr vinyl sales, there are lots and lots of legacy titles being reissued now/recently on vinyl LP, far more than new 2008 title release on vinyl, the sum of which is probably far more than all six of those top 10 sellers combined. I would also suggest, that with the collapse of music sales due to internet theft, the relatively expensive nature of buying a new mfd LP compared to a CD or MP3 digital version is going to skew new LP sales even further towards the audiophile reissue market in years to come as that's the sole reason left to buy any LPs, better possible sound than CD or mp3. I just don't see the dance/DJ market as being significant in any way compared to the audiophile market, now or in the future. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of steve harley Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:31 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital On 2009-11-20 10:59 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: NO, but I read many music and hi-fi periodicals and see all the vendors catalogs too, its not a market of dance tracks or new title SACDs, it a big reissue market of specially pressed discs, mostly 180gram vinyl. i think it's probably a split market, you're seeing the audiophile side of it and i'm seeing the DJ/pop side though i can find numbers for overall vinyl sales (increasing rapidly, but still a miniscule proportion), and tons of commentary, no one seems to have the numbers by type of release or genre; even Nielsen Soundscan is going to miss a lot of the dance tracks because it doesn't cover all sales; Nielsen, for what it's worth, shows six out of ten top vinyl sellers last year were new releases: http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/news/neilson-soundscan-2008-sa les-f/ but that's not a good way to summarize the market note that i don't buy any type of newly-issued vinyl -- i only buy old scratchy stuff -- more fun and vinyl charm, less fuss Regarding proof to back up my contentions, where?s the proof for yours concerning nre release SACD or dance tracks outselling legacy vinyl reissues i didn't ask for proof, just anything to support what you were stating as fact; unlike you, i don't have a contention here -- i stated my _impression_; and i haven't said anything about SACD at all in this thread meanwhile: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/nov/20/linn-audio-stream ing-cd-players -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On 2009-11-21 04:11 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: http://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=topsellersTop_Count=100f ield_cat=5 interesting; this very large and popular vinyl retailer carries 27 vinyl releases in the hip hop/rap category, 14 in funk, then there's electronica, with zero releases; RB/soul is tops with 536; oh, and the top-selling turntable at Acoustic Sounds only costs $2500; hmm, obviously not a quality retailer ... by comparison, Amazon carries 14752 vinyl rap hip hop releases, 28781 for dance DJ; and Amazon carries almost 30 times as many RB vinyl releases as Acoustic Sounds i don't doubt that the thick vinyl crowd is growing rapidly, but i don't think its safe to draw further conclusions from the few hard facts you and i can find -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
Your post is not clear if your being serious or sarcastic. I will state what I have been saying all along, I don't believe the majority of new vinyl sales in 2009 is dance records as suggested, its mostly reissues of classic rock, jazz and classical. I have been follwing the new LP market for 20 years since the low point in '89 or so when everybody thought vinyl was dead for good. While there are a lot of dance releases on vinyl that are new for 2009 music, that's not where the bulk of vinyl sales come from. It's now an expensive audiophile format dominated by new release reissues of classic recordings from the latter half of the 30th century. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of steve harley Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:56 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data On 2009-11-21 04:11 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: http://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=topsellersTop_Count=100 f ield_cat=5 interesting; this very large and popular vinyl retailer carries 27 vinyl releases in the hip hop/rap category, 14 in funk, then there's electronica, with zero releases; RB/soul is tops with 536; oh, and the top-selling turntable at Acoustic Sounds only costs $2500; hmm, obviously not a quality retailer ... by comparison, Amazon carries 14752 vinyl rap hip hop releases, 28781 for dance DJ; and Amazon carries almost 30 times as many RB vinyl releases as Acoustic Sounds i don't doubt that the thick vinyl crowd is growing rapidly, but i don't think its safe to draw further conclusions from the few hard facts you and i can find -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data
On Nov 21, 2009, at 9:09 PM, J.C. O'Connell wrote: Your post is not clear if your being serious or sarcastic. I will state what I have been saying all along, Mark! I don't believe the majority of new vinyl sales in 2009 is dance records as suggested, its mostly reissues of classic rock, jazz and classical. I have been follwing the new LP market for 20 years since the low point in '89 or so when everybody thought vinyl was dead for good. While there are a lot of dance releases on vinyl that are new for 2009 music, that's not where the bulk of vinyl sales come from. It's now an expensive audiophile format dominated by new release reissues of classic recordings from the latter half of the 30th century. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of steve harley Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:56 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital : One retailers sales data On 2009-11-21 04:11 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: http://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=topsellersTop_Count=100 f ield_cat=5 interesting; this very large and popular vinyl retailer carries 27 vinyl releases in the hip hop/rap category, 14 in funk, then there's electronica, with zero releases; RB/soul is tops with 536; oh, and the top-selling turntable at Acoustic Sounds only costs $2500; hmm, obviously not a quality retailer ... by comparison, Amazon carries 14752 vinyl rap hip hop releases, 28781 for dance DJ; and Amazon carries almost 30 times as many RB vinyl releases as Acoustic Sounds i don't doubt that the thick vinyl crowd is growing rapidly, but i don't think its safe to draw further conclusions from the few hard facts you and i can find -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On Nov 17, 2009, at 15:40 , Rob Studdert wrote: the master recordings being tape however do degrade with time. The ferrous binders often fail or become sticky so the the tape flutters, the remnant magnetism becomes diminished so the noise floor rises and dynamics become a little compressed. Plus old tapes often suffer print-through which is an echo effect created due to tape layers imposing their magnetic record on each other. It's absolutely no surprise that old tapes sound worse years after they were recorded. I had the pleasure of observing how the gov't (*military*) record to tape, and how they go about preserving the data on them. First off, I'm talking 70mm 48 track ferrous tape on 24 Pyrex glass reels. In the 80s. A raw tape is first run through one way and then rewound while passing the oxide side over a quartz prism edge to knock off any loose coating, while the backside is passing over a counter-rotating fine cotton cleaner that is itself a 9 reel to reel sub-system. The vacuum chambers on either side of the heads control the tape slack loops, and that air removes any dust or oxide that is not trapped by the mechanisms above. Once recorded, the tape is played twice to do a checksum on the data tracks, and a comparative check for variances in the analog signal that is recorded simultaneously on hard disk platter packs. Then it's stored properly. Every three months, the tapes were wound and rewound to repack them and prevent print-through or edge degredation. Every six months, the tape is taken out of storage, wound side to side, then duplicated to an identical reel of tape while being check summed against the original. The master tape is then cleaned and stored as a backup. The next time around, six months later, a dupe is made of the backup tape, then the master bulk erased. If that erased master test ok, it is re-used to record another session. It is never used to record a third time, no matter how well it tests. Because of the classified nature of the tapes, when it is thrown out it is bulk erased twice, shredded then burned on site. Keeps a half-dozen strong gentlemen employed 24 hours a day, year round, as the reels each weight 80 lbs.. It is most likely being done entirely digitally and stored on hard drives these days. And I guess my point is that the master and dupe backup tapes were never left to sit for more than three months. Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com The Big Bang was silent, and probably invisible. — from the Pentaxian's thoughts on particle physics, so far. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
YOU GUYS are in different domains, RS is talking about analog music tapes and JM is talking about digital data tapes. The problems and handing of each is not the same. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Joseph McAllister Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 3:31 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital On Nov 17, 2009, at 15:40 , Rob Studdert wrote: the master recordings being tape however do degrade with time. The ferrous binders often fail or become sticky so the the tape flutters, the remnant magnetism becomes diminished so the noise floor rises and dynamics become a little compressed. Plus old tapes often suffer print-through which is an echo effect created due to tape layers imposing their magnetic record on each other. It's absolutely no surprise that old tapes sound worse years after they were recorded. I had the pleasure of observing how the gov't (*military*) record to tape, and how they go about preserving the data on them. First off, I'm talking 70mm 48 track ferrous tape on 24 Pyrex glass reels. In the 80s. A raw tape is first run through one way and then rewound while passing the oxide side over a quartz prism edge to knock off any loose coating, while the backside is passing over a counter-rotating fine cotton cleaner that is itself a 9 reel to reel sub-system. The vacuum chambers on either side of the heads control the tape slack loops, and that air removes any dust or oxide that is not trapped by the mechanisms above. Once recorded, the tape is played twice to do a checksum on the data tracks, and a comparative check for variances in the analog signal that is recorded simultaneously on hard disk platter packs. Then it's stored properly. Every three months, the tapes were wound and rewound to repack them and prevent print-through or edge degredation. Every six months, the tape is taken out of storage, wound side to side, then duplicated to an identical reel of tape while being check summed against the original. The master tape is then cleaned and stored as a backup. The next time around, six months later, a dupe is made of the backup tape, then the master bulk erased. If that erased master test ok, it is re-used to record another session. It is never used to record a third time, no matter how well it tests. Because of the classified nature of the tapes, when it is thrown out it is bulk erased twice, shredded then burned on site. Keeps a half-dozen strong gentlemen employed 24 hours a day, year round, as the reels each weight 80 lbs.. It is most likely being done entirely digitally and stored on hard drives these days. And I guess my point is that the master and dupe backup tapes were never left to sit for more than three months. Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com The Big Bang was silent, and probably invisible. - from the Pentaxian's thoughts on particle physics, so far. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On 20/11/2009, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: YOU GUYS are in different domains, RS is talking about analog music tapes and JM is talking about digital data tapes. The problems and handing of each is not the same. Obviously, but it's a fact that audio tapes degrade with time, often far faster than their owners would expect, http://www.nfsa.gov.au/preservation/care_audiovisual/care_for_audio.html -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
yes, this is all well known but analog music master tapes are generally more challenging because you cant make perfect copies like you can with digtial tapes and at the same time you don't want to handle them too much either. Safety tapes are often made and used but these all degrade the sound. Degraded original masters and or use of safety tapes instead of the original masters is a common reason why CD reissue mastering is generally poorer than the original LP mastering. Original issue LPs were often mastered not only with the actual original masters, they were also mastered using FRESH original analog masters too which can (but not always) make an audible difference compared to legacy poorly archived master tapes. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Rob Studdert Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:09 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital On 20/11/2009, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: YOU GUYS are in different domains, RS is talking about analog music tapes and JM is talking about digital data tapes. The problems and handing of each is not the same. Obviously, but it's a fact that audio tapes degrade with time, often far faster than their owners would expect, http://www.nfsa.gov.au/preservation/care_audiovisual/care_for_audio.html -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On 2009-11-18 05:22 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: The part about there being more new SACD/DVDA new releases now than more new vinyl **releases** now is incorrect, there is a ton of brand new LP edition issues right now, way more than SACD or DVDA combined. Most of these are high end LP reissues of legacy music, but that's what people want anyway, not new 2009 music recordings. do you have some industry statistics to back that up? my impression was that most new vinyl was new dance tracks -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
NO, but I read many music and hi-fi periodicals and see all the vendors catalogs too, its not a market of dance tracks or new title SACDs, it a big reissue market of specially pressed discs, mostly 180gram vinyl. DVDa is already dead, and SACD is nearly dead, vinyl is resurging. And even when DVDA and SACD where doing better, they werent selling much new titles, it was mostly reissues of legacy material with better than CD sound for digital fans. Regarding proof to back up my contentions, where?s the proof for yours concerning nre release SACD or dance tracks outselling legacy vinyl reissues My burden of proof is no greater than yours. One of the reasons the legacy reissues are thriving is many of the highly desireable older titles are very expensive on the collector market in higher grade conditions, hence the reissues for those who don't or cant pay the big bucks for nice clean originals of the classics. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of steve harley Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 11:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital On 2009-11-18 05:22 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: The part about there being more new SACD/DVDA new releases now than more new vinyl **releases** now is incorrect, there is a ton of brand new LP edition issues right now, way more than SACD or DVDA combined. Most of these are high end LP reissues of legacy music, but that's what people want anyway, not new 2009 music recordings. do you have some industry statistics to back that up? my impression was that most new vinyl was new dance tracks -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On 2009-11-20 10:59 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: NO, but I read many music and hi-fi periodicals and see all the vendors catalogs too, its not a market of dance tracks or new title SACDs, it a big reissue market of specially pressed discs, mostly 180gram vinyl. i think it's probably a split market, you're seeing the audiophile side of it and i'm seeing the DJ/pop side though i can find numbers for overall vinyl sales (increasing rapidly, but still a miniscule proportion), and tons of commentary, no one seems to have the numbers by type of release or genre; even Nielsen Soundscan is going to miss a lot of the dance tracks because it doesn't cover all sales; Nielsen, for what it's worth, shows six out of ten top vinyl sellers last year were new releases: http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/news/neilson-soundscan-2008-sales-f/ but that's not a good way to summarize the market note that i don't buy any type of newly-issued vinyl -- i only buy old scratchy stuff -- more fun and vinyl charm, less fuss Regarding proof to back up my contentions, where?s the proof for yours concerning nre release SACD or dance tracks outselling legacy vinyl reissues i didn't ask for proof, just anything to support what you were stating as fact; unlike you, i don't have a contention here -- i stated my _impression_; and i haven't said anything about SACD at all in this thread meanwhile: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/nov/20/linn-audio-streaming-cd-players -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On Nov 17, 2009, at 7:44 PM, Peter Loveday wrote: But a well mastered SACD/DVDA is pretty damn impressive. Just a shame there's not more stuff being released on them, though its still probably more than the amount of new stuff released on vinyl :( Yeah there's a real shortage of good SACD material and most of the stuff out there just isn't my thing. I have a few remasters and one modern SACD recording. If I heard any difference between the CD and SACD layers I'd probably put it down to the mastering processes rather than the format. I only bought them because I can. The unfortunate thing about SACD and DVDA is that they hit the market right about when the whole plastic-disc format began its decline, and having two formats competing against each other doesn't help with adoption (as we also saw with HD-DVD vs BluRay). Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:17 PM, John Sessoms wrote: It depends on how you define as good as. Might as well ask if a dog is as good as a cat? or vice versa. The answer to that question is obvious. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
THAT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE to be remained released, the RIAA encode curve cuts all the bass and boosts all the treble to such extent that the sound wouldn't be horrible, it would be clearly defective in nature and would be pulled from market immediately if ever done like that, if one ever even got that far. I think what you might be talking about is some CDs were mastered in error using sweeted for lP EQ'd tapes instead of straight tapes in error, but this wasn't riaa encoding in error, just the wrong tapes. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Charles Robinson Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:43 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital On Nov 17, 2009, at 17:40, Rob Studdert wrote: The RIAA equalization is not applied to the master recording so eq is not a problem, the master recordings being tape however do degrade with time. There have been CDs made in the past using tapes which DID have the RIAA curve applied. Crappy, crappy horrible sound results. Gladly, that kind of error is/was VERY rare back in the early 80s. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
The point was is that you CANT add anything to digital recordings to make them sound like highest end analog recordings as implied. highest end analog isnt about distortions and colorations that you could add to any digital recording to match it. At this point it not even clear that the best commercial digital recording systems at any bit depth/sample rate can match an analog cutting lathe ( direct to disk LP recording) or a really high end analog tape recorder. Microphones are not the limiting factor/problem with most recordings ever made, the recording engineering usually is however. BTW, some of the worlds finest mikes, still in use and demand today are very old models which means that mikes have not been much of a limiting factor in the past, other links in the chain have like poor LP playback gear and poor low res digital recording machines. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Rob Studdert Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:45 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital 2009/11/18 J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net: false, false, false, you cant take low resolution digital recordings (CD) and DO ANYTHING TO THEM to make them sound even remotely as good as proper high end vinyl mastering and playback. there is no magic trick to restore resolution lost in the low res digital recording/playback processes. If there was a magic black box like that, CD wouldn't have been replace by higher bit rate digital processes like 24/96 or SACD etc. And where in the reply to which you are referring did I mention low resolution digital recordings? Of course I agree that it's impossible to restore information which has been annihilated, however the new recording systems are effectively more capable and accurate than the best transducers to which they must be connected in order to record sound waves. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
The part about there being more new SACD/DVDA new releases now than more new vinyl **releases** now is incorrect, there is a ton of brand new LP edition issues right now, way more than SACD or DVDA combined. Most of these are high end LP reissues of legacy music, but that's what people want anyway, not new 2009 music recordings. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of David Mann Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:22 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital On Nov 17, 2009, at 7:44 PM, Peter Loveday wrote: But a well mastered SACD/DVDA is pretty damn impressive. Just a shame there's not more stuff being released on them, though its still probably more than the amount of new stuff released on vinyl :( Yeah there's a real shortage of good SACD material and most of the stuff out there just isn't my thing. I have a few remasters and one modern SACD recording. If I heard any difference between the CD and SACD layers I'd probably put it down to the mastering processes rather than the format. I only bought them because I can. The unfortunate thing about SACD and DVDA is that they hit the market right about when the whole plastic-disc format began its decline, and having two formats competing against each other doesn't help with adoption (as we also saw with HD-DVD vs BluRay). Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
You're letting JCO poison the conversation. Better to 'Kill File' him. Regards, Bob S. On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Tim Bray tb...@textuality.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Adam Maas a...@mawz.ca wrote: I've actually just got a long-nurtured hate You know, I can't help but notice that the generally friendly and humorous tone around here has become bitter and adversarial once we ventured into the music/audio territory. The Internet has plenty of places I can go to soak up abusive negativity, so how about we drop the subject? -Tim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
From: Bob Sullivan You're letting JCO poison the conversation. Better to 'Kill File' him. Regards, Bob S. Can't do that if you're subscribed through the digests. Just have to remember to ignore him. He'll go quiescent for a while and I forget. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
YouTube .. StarTrek vibes .. at least it wasn't this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC73PHdQX04 (now see how long it takes to get that tune out of your head) On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:57:41PM +1100, Anthony Farr wrote: How could I pass up the chance to respond with this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luVjkTEIoJc You get William Shatner AND the Pythons at the same time :-) regards, Anthony ? Of what use is lens and light to those who lack in mind and sight (Anon) 2009/11/17 Bob W p...@web-options.com: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-yy2URAYqUfeature=related It's better on vinyl. Well worth spending a couple of hundred K for the experience. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
Dear Lord, who knew such things existed in our world? -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Francis Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 11:53 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital YouTube .. StarTrek vibes .. at least it wasn't this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC73PHdQX04 (now see how long it takes to get that tune out of your head) On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:57:41PM +1100, Anthony Farr wrote: How could I pass up the chance to respond with this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luVjkTEIoJc You get William Shatner AND the Pythons at the same time :-) regards, Anthony ? Of what use is lens and light to those who lack in mind and sight (Anon) 2009/11/17 Bob W p...@web-options.com: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-yy2URAYqUfeature=related It's better on vinyl. Well worth spending a couple of hundred K for the experience. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. !SIG:4b04267d76086800621452! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
Hey there is nothing wrong with what you have for vinyl. Even a few hundred dollar turntable setup with the best records can put the vast majority of CDs and CD rigs to shame. Although getting the whole incredible sound off an LP is very expensive, getting better sound than the CD in most cases is not that difficult or expensive to achieve. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Tom C Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:47 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital Thanks for that additional info on the history. As usual many variables. I'm with you on the travel priorities. That would be mine as well. If I can get what I consider great sound reproduction at a decent price that's all I need. Quite it often it depends what we compare it to. As I said I got drawn back into audio because of my son. So now he has an entire system that costs $1500 dollars with speakers he picked out (sub-$300). Most was spent on TT + cartridge. It sounds better than anything I have owned to date. It would be laughed at by true audiophiles, I'm sure, but at the same time I'm sure it sounds better than anything 1 out 100 people I know have. Tom On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 5:44 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote: From: Tom C FWIW, when vinyl was in it's heyday, considering the quality of playback equipment most commonly used by the largest % of the record market, I wonder whether the LP's themselves were made to the high quality audio specifications, that eliteists believe they are hearing. I can hear a diffference between same vinyl and CD recordings, but how good is the vinyl, really? Depends on the original analog mix; quality of the original vinyl - ratio of virgin vinyl to recycled vinyl; thickness of the pressing; quality of the lacquer cutting; quality of the master disc; quality of the mother discs; quality of the stamping molds; where it comes in the press run ... how the LP has been handled since it left the factory floor. Mass market vinyl from the 60s and 70s ain't often that great. They made CHEAP, thin records, cut a lot of corners in manufacturing, and quality control was often poor. New audiophile LPs use higher quality materials, more of them and cut fewer corners in production. The same factors apply to CDs. Audiophile CDs have much better sound quality than the ones you find in the discount bin at WalMart; especially some of the early CD issues of 60s 70s LPs that were digitized straight from the old LP master tapes without any kind of re-mixing, re-mastering ... that's why there are re-issues (one reason anyway). Another thing is the recording process is stood somewhat on its head from what it was in the golden age of vinyl. Where before everything was recorded onto analog tape and then digitized along the way to making an LP into a CD, now-a-days almost everything is recorded digitally from the get-go and has to be converted to analog somewhere along the way to making a new vinyl LP. What I'm saying is really good quality vinyl and really good quality digital sources both sound *REALLY GOOD*. It can also be REALLY expensive relative to what's good enough for most purposes. It boils down to everyone has to determine their own cost benefit ratio regarding their chosen audio reproduction system. I have what I consider a good quality legacy audio system with a better than average turntable, good speakers and a set of audiophile head-phones ... plus tape decks and CD players. When I use my legacy system, I play CDs or home recorded cassettes. I'm not a connoisseur of the audio listening experience. For me it's a soundtrack. I can't remember the last time I actually listened to my vinyl LPs because they don't fit in with the way I want to listen to music, although I do still have those vinyl LPs; even some of my old 45s. I keep 'em around in case the CDRs ever wear out. I can go back and rip 'em again if I need to. I have listened to audiophile vinyl on audiophile component systems, including the multi-thousand dollar turntables. But, if/when I have multi-thousands of dollars to spend, I wouldn't spend it on stereo equipment. Maybe a new camera body, a lens or two and I'd put a lot of miles into my next photo-safari. There's 50 states out there; 49 of 'em I intend to see either at least once or at least once more ... and then there's the Orient, Europe, Australia, Africa ... are all calling my name. Ain't no audiophile stereo listening experience good enough to drown that out, and it wouldn't fit into a carry-on anyway. So ... Usual terms and conditions apply. Feed face down, nine edge first. It had a good beat, was easy
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
From: Tom C I've never had an SACD, but it seems like technology is changing so fast it's hard to keep up without pouring $$$ down the drain, especially if the content is not there. We buy and spend like we live forever, and both the stuff and us will last, but it doesn't. I might have one. I think the Springsteen Seeger Sessions was one of those dual CD/SACD discs. I know it's a CD on one side and a DVD on the other side. So here's a question. Why when CD's first came out did almost every single one have a disclaimer that it might 'show up the faults of the original recording', when in reality it probably was not as good as the original... merely on the noise level? That was what I was saying about early CD issues being just a straight analog to digital conversion of the tape masters. The tapes were originally mixed so they'd sound good on vinyl, but the reproduction characteristics of the CD are different. If I remember correctly, you have to boost the high frequencies a lot more on vinyl so they'll reproduce normally on playback. Take that analog master tape with the boosted high frequencies and rip it straight to CD and it'll come out with too much treble. And one other ponderance. Can a digital recording, regardless of the medium one is listening to, be as good as the analog recording? Several more... and a digital recording pressed to a vinyl record, can it be little more than a digital recording... and then of course an analog recording (as in LP), is no more than an inferior copy of the analog source. It depends on how you define as good as. Might as well ask if a dog is as good as a cat? or vice versa. Think back to high school calculus classes. The smaller the increment you use to sample a curve, the more accurately you can approximate any point on the curve. Higher sampling rates can give more accurate reproduction. A vinyl LP doesn't accurately reproduce the recorded sound. But most of the kinds of artifacts it introduces are pleasant to the ear, so it sounds good. And the engineers who created vinyl LPs knew what kind of artifacts vinyl introduced, like the roll off in the higher frequencies, and compensated for those that didn't sound good. If you wanted to, you could add those same kind of warm vinyl inaccuracies to digital recordings so they'd be present in playback. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
2009/11/18 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com: That was what I was saying about early CD issues being just a straight analog to digital conversion of the tape masters. The tapes were originally mixed so they'd sound good on vinyl, but the reproduction characteristics of the CD are different. The RIAA equalization is not applied to the master recording so eq is not a problem, the master recordings being tape however do degrade with time. The ferrous binders often fail or become sticky so the the tape flutters, the remnant magnetism becomes diminished so the noise floor rises and dynamics become a little compressed. Plus old tapes often suffer print-through which is an echo effect created due to tape layers imposing their magnetic record on each other. It's absolutely no surprise that old tapes sound worse years after they were recorded. If you wanted to, you could add those same kind of warm vinyl inaccuracies to digital recordings so they'd be present in playback. That's true, the same as adding film noise to a digital photograph. The state of the art digital recording systems are so accurate a new generation of microphones had to be developed in order to take limited advantage of the new capabilities. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
I respectfully but STRONGLY disagree this assessment which is that good vinyl just is more distorted but euphonic than CD, modern, even some early, LP disc mastering (say within the last 40 years) hasn't needed nor does it produce any false or bad reproduction that needs precompensation to sound right in the final result. Yes, in the early days, sometimes the mastering played games in an attempt to make the sound better for crappy phono gear, but it was not the rule, it was the exception. And you cant take medioocre 15/44.1 digital recording and add artifacts to them to make them sound as good as properly mastered and reproduced vinyl. The photographic analogy would be that vinyl is nothing more than a mediorce digital photograph with lots of sharpness processing and that CD is actually the higher and more accurate image. No, its more the other way 'round. Vinyl is more like an ultra large format film photography whereas CD is the low resolution digital image. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sessoms Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:18 PM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital From: Tom C I've never had an SACD, but it seems like technology is changing so fast it's hard to keep up without pouring $$$ down the drain, especially if the content is not there. We buy and spend like we live forever, and both the stuff and us will last, but it doesn't. I might have one. I think the Springsteen Seeger Sessions was one of those dual CD/SACD discs. I know it's a CD on one side and a DVD on the other side. So here's a question. Why when CD's first came out did almost every single one have a disclaimer that it might 'show up the faults of the original recording', when in reality it probably was not as good as the original... merely on the noise level? That was what I was saying about early CD issues being just a straight analog to digital conversion of the tape masters. The tapes were originally mixed so they'd sound good on vinyl, but the reproduction characteristics of the CD are different. If I remember correctly, you have to boost the high frequencies a lot more on vinyl so they'll reproduce normally on playback. Take that analog master tape with the boosted high frequencies and rip it straight to CD and it'll come out with too much treble. And one other ponderance. Can a digital recording, regardless of the medium one is listening to, be as good as the analog recording? Several more... and a digital recording pressed to a vinyl record, can it be little more than a digital recording... and then of course an analog recording (as in LP), is no more than an inferior copy of the analog source. It depends on how you define as good as. Might as well ask if a dog is as good as a cat? or vice versa. Think back to high school calculus classes. The smaller the increment you use to sample a curve, the more accurately you can approximate any point on the curve. Higher sampling rates can give more accurate reproduction. A vinyl LP doesn't accurately reproduce the recorded sound. But most of the kinds of artifacts it introduces are pleasant to the ear, so it sounds good. And the engineers who created vinyl LPs knew what kind of artifacts vinyl introduced, like the roll off in the higher frequencies, and compensated for those that didn't sound good. If you wanted to, you could add those same kind of warm vinyl inaccuracies to digital recordings so they'd be present in playback. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
false, false, false, you cant take low resolution digital recordings (CD) and DO ANYTHING TO THEM to make them sound even remotely as good as proper high end vinyl mastering and playback. there is no magic trick to restore resolution lost in the low res digital recording/playback processes. If there was a magic black box like that, CD wouldn't have been replace by higher bit rate digital processes like 24/96 or SACD etc. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Rob Studdert Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:41 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital 2009/11/18 John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com: That was what I was saying about early CD issues being just a straight analog to digital conversion of the tape masters. The tapes were originally mixed so they'd sound good on vinyl, but the reproduction characteristics of the CD are different. The RIAA equalization is not applied to the master recording so eq is not a problem, the master recordings being tape however do degrade with time. The ferrous binders often fail or become sticky so the the tape flutters, the remnant magnetism becomes diminished so the noise floor rises and dynamics become a little compressed. Plus old tapes often suffer print-through which is an echo effect created due to tape layers imposing their magnetic record on each other. It's absolutely no surprise that old tapes sound worse years after they were recorded. If you wanted to, you could add those same kind of warm vinyl inaccuracies to digital recordings so they'd be present in playback. That's true, the same as adding film noise to a digital photograph. The state of the art digital recording systems are so accurate a new generation of microphones had to be developed in order to take limited advantage of the new capabilities. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On Nov 17, 2009, at 17:40, Rob Studdert wrote: The RIAA equalization is not applied to the master recording so eq is not a problem, the master recordings being tape however do degrade with time. There have been CDs made in the past using tapes which DID have the RIAA curve applied. Crappy, crappy horrible sound results. Gladly, that kind of error is/was VERY rare back in the early 80s. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
2009/11/18 J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net: false, false, false, you cant take low resolution digital recordings (CD) and DO ANYTHING TO THEM to make them sound even remotely as good as proper high end vinyl mastering and playback. there is no magic trick to restore resolution lost in the low res digital recording/playback processes. If there was a magic black box like that, CD wouldn't have been replace by higher bit rate digital processes like 24/96 or SACD etc. And where in the reply to which you are referring did I mention low resolution digital recordings? Of course I agree that it's impossible to restore information which has been annihilated, however the new recording systems are effectively more capable and accurate than the best transducers to which they must be connected in order to record sound waves. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
2009/11/18 Charles Robinson charl...@visi.com: There have been CDs made in the past using tapes which DID have the RIAA curve applied. Crappy, crappy horrible sound results. Gladly, that kind of error is/was VERY rare back in the early 80s. That would be very nasty (would make for a really poor quality analogue recording) though could be easily compensated for. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
It is - there are no opinions involved - just multiple parallel truths governing the same subjects and monologues are held in a tone of basic civility - opinions regularly make discussions go sour; they should be banned... ]=) 2009/11/16 Tom C caka...@gmail.com: And how is that different than when cameras, art, and photography are discussed??? :-) Tom On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Tim Bray tb...@textuality.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Adam Maas a...@mawz.ca wrote: I've actually just got a long-nurtured hate You know, I can't help but notice that the generally friendly and humorous tone around here has become bitter and adversarial once we ventured into the music/audio territory. The Internet has plenty of places I can go to soak up abusive negativity, so how about we drop the subject? -Tim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
one thing is clear, this has gone too far HERE considering its completely off-topic. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of eckinator Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 3:18 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital It is - there are no opinions involved - just multiple parallel truths governing the same subjects and monologues are held in a tone of basic civility - opinions regularly make discussions go sour; they should be banned... ]=) 2009/11/16 Tom C caka...@gmail.com: And how is that different than when cameras, art, and photography are discussed??? :-) Tom On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Tim Bray tb...@textuality.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Adam Maas a...@mawz.ca wrote: I've actually just got a long-nurtured hate You know, I can't help but notice that the generally friendly and humorous tone around here has become bitter and adversarial once we ventured into the music/audio territory. The Internet has plenty of places I can go to soak up abusive negativity, so how about we drop the subject? -Tim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
From: Adam Maas On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com wrote: If the angels in heaven sound like Margo Timmins, I'll take hell rather than put up with that awful whining. She looks a bit like Margo Thatcher. Same initials too. You guys are just trying to get away from the JCO circus. ? :-) Timmins actually has a rather breathy sound, unless she's shouting. She doesn't do that much anymore, because she's within a kicked mule of 50 and wearing out. Joseph McAllister I've actually just got a long-nurtured hate for the music of the Cowboy Junkies and Margo Timmins. If I want to hear Canadian mediocre depressing music I'll listen to Jann Arden instead. The Junkies are one of the primary arguments against CanCon regulations IMHO,never would have gotten much airtime if the radio wasn't forced to play so much (often mediocre) Canadian music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-yy2URAYqUfeature=related -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
In a message dated 11/15/2009 7:29:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, p...@web-options.com writes: anyhoo please enjoy your thread, maybe it just isn't mine to follow but rather to respectfully ignore Cheers Ecke === I kill filed JCO years ago. Lots of us did. I think he's been mostly correct in this thread, but other people have misconstrued what he's been saying. == Hmmm, I wonder why that ALWAYS happens in discussions with him? snip Unfortunately a lot of people have responded with a 'horse for courses' argument - you can't commute to work with top-end vinyl equipment, which is true but a non sequitur. Bob == Actually, I wasn't paying attention, I was basically ignoring (and I would also be one of those that want something for the car). AND I was giving a heads up for newbies. Maybe they'll remember the suggestion it the next time. Marnie aka Doe :-) - We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
J.C., seriously, are you the pot or are you the kettle? Because 99.9% of the people here on this list don't have a spare $10K, much less $100K lying dormant that they would put into a sound system, much less just one component, nor does the thought even enter our minds. The thread never was about how much money one had to spend. I'm actually surprised somone did not make the analogy between film and digital and start arguing the inherent purity and noiseless qualities of large format film. Tom On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 3:13 AM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: one thing is clear, this has gone too far HERE considering its completely off-topic. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of eckinator Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 3:18 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital It is - there are no opinions involved - just multiple parallel truths governing the same subjects and monologues are held in a tone of basic civility - opinions regularly make discussions go sour; they should be banned... ]=) 2009/11/16 Tom C caka...@gmail.com: And how is that different than when cameras, art, and photography are discussed??? :-) Tom On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Tim Bray tb...@textuality.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Adam Maas a...@mawz.ca wrote: I've actually just got a long-nurtured hate You know, I can't help but notice that the generally friendly and humorous tone around here has become bitter and adversarial once we ventured into the music/audio territory. The Internet has plenty of places I can go to soak up abusive negativity, so how about we drop the subject? -Tim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
I guess you forgot about the several posts made saying that CD sounds as good ( or even better ) than LP or that you can get state of the art vinyl reproduction for only a $1K These things are just not true, and needed some rebuattals bigtime. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Tom C Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:09 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital J.C., seriously, are you the pot or are you the kettle? Because 99.9% of the people here on this list don't have a spare $10K, much less $100K lying dormant that they would put into a sound system, much less just one component, nor does the thought even enter our minds. The thread never was about how much money one had to spend. I'm actually surprised somone did not make the analogy between film and digital and start arguing the inherent purity and noiseless qualities of large format film. Tom On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 3:13 AM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: one thing is clear, this has gone too far HERE considering its completely off-topic. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of eckinator Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 3:18 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital It is - there are no opinions involved - just multiple parallel truths governing the same subjects and monologues are held in a tone of basic civility - opinions regularly make discussions go sour; they should be banned... ]=) 2009/11/16 Tom C caka...@gmail.com: And how is that different than when cameras, art, and photography are discussed??? :-) Tom On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Tim Bray tb...@textuality.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Adam Maas a...@mawz.ca wrote: I've actually just got a long-nurtured hate You know, I can't help but notice that the generally friendly and humorous tone around here has become bitter and adversarial once we ventured into the music/audio territory. The Internet has plenty of places I can go to soak up abusive negativity, so how about we drop the subject? -Tim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
I didn't forget, it's just that most people are not going to (cannot) spend that kind of money for what is considered ultra-high end state of the art, which is itself is a turmoil of hair-splitting. FWIW, when vinyl was in it's heyday, considering the quality of playback equipment most commonly used by the largest % of the record market, I wonder whether the LP's themselves were made to the high quality audio specifications, that eliteists believe they are hearing. I can hear a diffference between same vinyl and CD recordings, but how good is the vinyl, really? My point in starting the thread was to point out how wonderful I thought the vinyl media sounds after not listening to it for many years, not to hash out how to get the best sound reproduction at prices almost no one can afford. Let's face it, most people won't spend over $1000 on an entire home theatre system, much less for a single component like a turntable or cartridge. I'd have a hard time justifying $1000 for any single component. We all live with what we can reasonably afford within in our circumstances and if we are really into it, we get the best we can get within those constraints. Those contraints are different for each of us. Tom On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 12:10 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: I guess you forgot about the several posts made saying that CD sounds as good ( or even better ) than LP or that you can get state of the art vinyl reproduction for only a $1K These things are just not true, and needed some rebuattals bigtime. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Tom C Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:09 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital J.C., seriously, are you the pot or are you the kettle? Because 99.9% of the people here on this list don't have a spare $10K, much less $100K lying dormant that they would put into a sound system, much less just one component, nor does the thought even enter our minds. The thread never was about how much money one had to spend. I'm actually surprised somone did not make the analogy between film and digital and start arguing the inherent purity and noiseless qualities of large format film. Tom On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 3:13 AM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: one thing is clear, this has gone too far HERE considering its completely off-topic. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of eckinator Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 3:18 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital It is - there are no opinions involved - just multiple parallel truths governing the same subjects and monologues are held in a tone of basic civility - opinions regularly make discussions go sour; they should be banned... ]=) 2009/11/16 Tom C caka...@gmail.com: And how is that different than when cameras, art, and photography are discussed??? :-) Tom On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Tim Bray tb...@textuality.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Adam Maas a...@mawz.ca wrote: I've actually just got a long-nurtured hate You know, I can't help but notice that the generally friendly and humorous tone around here has become bitter and adversarial once we ventured into the music/audio territory. The Internet has plenty of places I can go to soak up abusive negativity, so how about we drop the subject? -Tim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-yy2URAYqUfeature=related It's better on vinyl. Well worth spending a couple of hundred K for the experience. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
LOL. I remember seeing that LP. Not one of Kirk's best moves as a captain. On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-yy2URAYqUfeature=related It's better on vinyl. Well worth spending a couple of hundred K for the experience. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
As far as the records themselves go, the physical discs, things have worked perfectly for the music lover because the sound quality of the disc recordings/pressings themselves has been way ahead of the playback gear for decades. What this means is your records are far better recordings than you can imagine and always have been, its just that its taken many many years for modern playback gear to be able extract the info properly. The only bad part is its expensive gear to do it, but it could be worse, the records themselves could have sucked all along until recently but they didnt. There are some classical recordings on LP that are roughly 50 years old that sound incredible on modern gear, better than some much later stuff when transistors and multichannel recording became the norm. What that proves is the basic disc mastering, plating, and pressing technology used to make LPs has been superb for a long long time, long enough for most of the great recordings of the latter half of the 20th century that so many people cherish today. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Tom C Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:40 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital I didn't forget, it's just that most people are not going to (cannot) spend that kind of money for what is considered ultra-high end state of the art, which is itself is a turmoil of hair-splitting. FWIW, when vinyl was in it's heyday, considering the quality of playback equipment most commonly used by the largest % of the record market, I wonder whether the LP's themselves were made to the high quality audio specifications, that eliteists believe they are hearing. I can hear a diffference between same vinyl and CD recordings, but how good is the vinyl, really? My point in starting the thread was to point out how wonderful I thought the vinyl media sounds after not listening to it for many years, not to hash out how to get the best sound reproduction at prices almost no one can afford. Let's face it, most people won't spend over $1000 on an entire home theatre system, much less for a single component like a turntable or cartridge. I'd have a hard time justifying $1000 for any single component. We all live with what we can reasonably afford within in our circumstances and if we are really into it, we get the best we can get within those constraints. Those contraints are different for each of us. Tom On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 12:10 PM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: I guess you forgot about the several posts made saying that CD sounds as good ( or even better ) than LP or that you can get state of the art vinyl reproduction for only a $1K These things are just not true, and needed some rebuattals bigtime. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Tom C Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:09 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital J.C., seriously, are you the pot or are you the kettle? Because 99.9% of the people here on this list don't have a spare $10K, much less $100K lying dormant that they would put into a sound system, much less just one component, nor does the thought even enter our minds. The thread never was about how much money one had to spend. I'm actually surprised somone did not make the analogy between film and digital and start arguing the inherent purity and noiseless qualities of large format film. Tom On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 3:13 AM, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: one thing is clear, this has gone too far HERE considering its completely off-topic. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of eckinator Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 3:18 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital It is - there are no opinions involved - just multiple parallel truths governing the same subjects and monologues are held in a tone of basic civility - opinions regularly make discussions go sour; they should be banned... ]=) 2009/11/16 Tom C caka...@gmail.com: And how is that different than when cameras, art, and photography are discussed??? :-) Tom On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Tim Bray tb...@textuality.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Adam Maas a...@mawz.ca wrote: I've
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
From: Tom C FWIW, when vinyl was in it's heyday, considering the quality of playback equipment most commonly used by the largest % of the record market, I wonder whether the LP's themselves were made to the high quality audio specifications, that eliteists believe they are hearing. I can hear a diffference between same vinyl and CD recordings, but how good is the vinyl, really? Depends on the original analog mix; quality of the original vinyl - ratio of virgin vinyl to recycled vinyl; thickness of the pressing; quality of the lacquer cutting; quality of the master disc; quality of the mother discs; quality of the stamping molds; where it comes in the press run ... how the LP has been handled since it left the factory floor. Mass market vinyl from the 60s and 70s ain't often that great. They made CHEAP, thin records, cut a lot of corners in manufacturing, and quality control was often poor. New audiophile LPs use higher quality materials, more of them and cut fewer corners in production. The same factors apply to CDs. Audiophile CDs have much better sound quality than the ones you find in the discount bin at WalMart; especially some of the early CD issues of 60s 70s LPs that were digitized straight from the old LP master tapes without any kind of re-mixing, re-mastering ... that's why there are re-issues (one reason anyway). Another thing is the recording process is stood somewhat on its head from what it was in the golden age of vinyl. Where before everything was recorded onto analog tape and then digitized along the way to making an LP into a CD, now-a-days almost everything is recorded digitally from the get-go and has to be converted to analog somewhere along the way to making a new vinyl LP. What I'm saying is really good quality vinyl and really good quality digital sources both sound *REALLY GOOD*. It can also be REALLY expensive relative to what's good enough for most purposes. It boils down to everyone has to determine their own cost benefit ratio regarding their chosen audio reproduction system. I have what I consider a good quality legacy audio system with a better than average turntable, good speakers and a set of audiophile head-phones ... plus tape decks and CD players. When I use my legacy system, I play CDs or home recorded cassettes. I'm not a connoisseur of the audio listening experience. For me it's a soundtrack. I can't remember the last time I actually listened to my vinyl LPs because they don't fit in with the way I want to listen to music, although I do still have those vinyl LPs; even some of my old 45s. I keep 'em around in case the CDRs ever wear out. I can go back and rip 'em again if I need to. I have listened to audiophile vinyl on audiophile component systems, including the multi-thousand dollar turntables. But, if/when I have multi-thousands of dollars to spend, I wouldn't spend it on stereo equipment. Maybe a new camera body, a lens or two and I'd put a lot of miles into my next photo-safari. There's 50 states out there; 49 of 'em I intend to see either at least once or at least once more ... and then there's the Orient, Europe, Australia, Africa ... are all calling my name. Ain't no audiophile stereo listening experience good enough to drown that out, and it wouldn't fit into a carry-on anyway. So ... Usual terms and conditions apply. Feed face down, nine edge first. It had a good beat, was easy to dance to - so I'll give it about a 63. Closed course with professional driver. Void where prohibited, licensed or taxed. Do not bend, fold, spindle or mutilate. Your mileage MAY vary! Consult your owners manual for additional details. Don't try this at home kids. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
All I can say is that if your LPs don't sound better than your CDs of the same titles, either upgrade your phono gear or LP copies or both because they should or ditch vinyl altogether. There is no point in using vinyl if it doesn't sound better than CDs, its only remaining usage advantage today is for better sound than CD. I cant see why anyone would use still use vinyl at all if it sounded the same as CD to them. CDs prices have plummeted to nearly nothing now, maybe even lower cost than clean vinyl, so there is absolutely no advantage left to LP except for better possible sound which you don't seem to be getting or hearing so why use it at all. I know I wouldn't stick with it if it wasn't for the sweeter sound, I can tell you that for sure. Vinyl is fussy and fragile but the better sound is worth putting up with it, but in your case, without better sound, Id let it go or make it sound better, one or the other. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sessoms Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 6:45 PM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital From: Tom C FWIW, when vinyl was in it's heyday, considering the quality of playback equipment most commonly used by the largest % of the record market, I wonder whether the LP's themselves were made to the high quality audio specifications, that eliteists believe they are hearing. I can hear a diffference between same vinyl and CD recordings, but how good is the vinyl, really? Depends on the original analog mix; quality of the original vinyl - ratio of virgin vinyl to recycled vinyl; thickness of the pressing; quality of the lacquer cutting; quality of the master disc; quality of the mother discs; quality of the stamping molds; where it comes in the press run ... how the LP has been handled since it left the factory floor. Mass market vinyl from the 60s and 70s ain't often that great. They made CHEAP, thin records, cut a lot of corners in manufacturing, and quality control was often poor. New audiophile LPs use higher quality materials, more of them and cut fewer corners in production. The same factors apply to CDs. Audiophile CDs have much better sound quality than the ones you find in the discount bin at WalMart; especially some of the early CD issues of 60s 70s LPs that were digitized straight from the old LP master tapes without any kind of re-mixing, re-mastering ... that's why there are re-issues (one reason anyway). Another thing is the recording process is stood somewhat on its head from what it was in the golden age of vinyl. Where before everything was recorded onto analog tape and then digitized along the way to making an LP into a CD, now-a-days almost everything is recorded digitally from the get-go and has to be converted to analog somewhere along the way to making a new vinyl LP. What I'm saying is really good quality vinyl and really good quality digital sources both sound *REALLY GOOD*. It can also be REALLY expensive relative to what's good enough for most purposes. It boils down to everyone has to determine their own cost benefit ratio regarding their chosen audio reproduction system. I have what I consider a good quality legacy audio system with a better than average turntable, good speakers and a set of audiophile head-phones ... plus tape decks and CD players. When I use my legacy system, I play CDs or home recorded cassettes. I'm not a connoisseur of the audio listening experience. For me it's a soundtrack. I can't remember the last time I actually listened to my vinyl LPs because they don't fit in with the way I want to listen to music, although I do still have those vinyl LPs; even some of my old 45s. I keep 'em around in case the CDRs ever wear out. I can go back and rip 'em again if I need to. I have listened to audiophile vinyl on audiophile component systems, including the multi-thousand dollar turntables. But, if/when I have multi-thousands of dollars to spend, I wouldn't spend it on stereo equipment. Maybe a new camera body, a lens or two and I'd put a lot of miles into my next photo-safari. There's 50 states out there; 49 of 'em I intend to see either at least once or at least once more ... and then there's the Orient, Europe, Australia, Africa ... are all calling my name. Ain't no audiophile stereo listening experience good enough to drown that out, and it wouldn't fit into a carry-on anyway. So ... Usual terms and conditions apply. Feed face down, nine edge first. It had a good beat, was easy to dance to - so I'll give it about a 63. Closed course with professional driver. Void where prohibited, licensed or taxed. Do not bend, fold, spindle or mutilate. Your mileage MAY vary! Consult your owners manual for additional
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
there are a large number of factors that can affect the sound quality of a vinyl LP, the master recording, the tape used for mastering, (isnt always the original master), disc mastering, the disc production stages , the vinyl, the quality control, etc. Die hard vinyl collectors often seek out the very best pressings (and pay big bucks ) of a given title based on stamper matrix numbers etc. But in general, the overall sound quality and overall consistancy level of quality of LP mastering is higher than CDs by far. CDs have a very high percentage of poorly mastered discs compared to LPs which is one the reasons many serious music lovers have LP systems as well as CD systems, the poorly mastered CDs are really poor compared to normal LPs let alone the the very best pressings of LPs. Even if you have equal quality LP nd CD players, the good mastered LP (common) is going to beat the poorly mastered CDs ( also common ) every time on sound quality and musical enjoyment that goes along with that. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sessoms Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 6:45 PM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital From: Tom C FWIW, when vinyl was in it's heyday, considering the quality of playback equipment most commonly used by the largest % of the record market, I wonder whether the LP's themselves were made to the high quality audio specifications, that eliteists believe they are hearing. I can hear a diffference between same vinyl and CD recordings, but how good is the vinyl, really? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
How could I pass up the chance to respond with this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luVjkTEIoJc You get William Shatner AND the Pythons at the same time :-) regards, Anthony Of what use is lens and light to those who lack in mind and sight (Anon) 2009/11/17 Bob W p...@web-options.com: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-yy2URAYqUfeature=related It's better on vinyl. Well worth spending a couple of hundred K for the experience. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On Nov 16, 2009, at 08:09 , Tom C wrote: I'm actually surprised somone did not make the analogy between film and digital and start arguing the inherent purity and noiseless qualities of large format film. An argument that is moot. Large format rools! Not that I ever haul the 8 x 10 out anymore...BUT I COULD! :-) Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com “ It is still true, as was first said many years ago, that people are the only sophisticated computing devices that can be made at low cost by unskilled workers!” — Martin G. Wolf, PhD -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
The same factors apply to CDs. Audiophile CDs have much better sound quality than the ones you find in the discount bin at WalMart; especially some of the early CD issues of 60s 70s LPs that were digitized straight from the old LP master tapes without any kind of re-mixing, re-mastering ... that's why there are re-issues (one reason anyway). Indeed. There is a lot of quality variation in all formats. But its not like CDs are representative of state-of-the-art digital music formats anyway,nor have been for a long time. Even in consumer equipment, it's been, what, 10 years since SACD/DVDA came on the scene? These suffer from exactly what you talk about though, too many are merely upconversions of CD recordings, themselves often digitized from dodgey analogue masters. But a well mastered SACD/DVDA is pretty damn impressive. Just a shame there's not more stuff being released on them, though its still probably more than the amount of new stuff released on vinyl :( - Peter -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
Thanks for that additional info on the history. As usual many variables. I'm with you on the travel priorities. That would be mine as well. If I can get what I consider great sound reproduction at a decent price that's all I need. Quite it often it depends what we compare it to. As I said I got drawn back into audio because of my son. So now he has an entire system that costs $1500 dollars with speakers he picked out (sub-$300). Most was spent on TT + cartridge. It sounds better than anything I have owned to date. It would be laughed at by true audiophiles, I'm sure, but at the same time I'm sure it sounds better than anything 1 out 100 people I know have. Tom On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 5:44 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote: From: Tom C FWIW, when vinyl was in it's heyday, considering the quality of playback equipment most commonly used by the largest % of the record market, I wonder whether the LP's themselves were made to the high quality audio specifications, that eliteists believe they are hearing. I can hear a diffference between same vinyl and CD recordings, but how good is the vinyl, really? Depends on the original analog mix; quality of the original vinyl - ratio of virgin vinyl to recycled vinyl; thickness of the pressing; quality of the lacquer cutting; quality of the master disc; quality of the mother discs; quality of the stamping molds; where it comes in the press run ... how the LP has been handled since it left the factory floor. Mass market vinyl from the 60s and 70s ain't often that great. They made CHEAP, thin records, cut a lot of corners in manufacturing, and quality control was often poor. New audiophile LPs use higher quality materials, more of them and cut fewer corners in production. The same factors apply to CDs. Audiophile CDs have much better sound quality than the ones you find in the discount bin at WalMart; especially some of the early CD issues of 60s 70s LPs that were digitized straight from the old LP master tapes without any kind of re-mixing, re-mastering ... that's why there are re-issues (one reason anyway). Another thing is the recording process is stood somewhat on its head from what it was in the golden age of vinyl. Where before everything was recorded onto analog tape and then digitized along the way to making an LP into a CD, now-a-days almost everything is recorded digitally from the get-go and has to be converted to analog somewhere along the way to making a new vinyl LP. What I'm saying is really good quality vinyl and really good quality digital sources both sound *REALLY GOOD*. It can also be REALLY expensive relative to what's good enough for most purposes. It boils down to everyone has to determine their own cost benefit ratio regarding their chosen audio reproduction system. I have what I consider a good quality legacy audio system with a better than average turntable, good speakers and a set of audiophile head-phones ... plus tape decks and CD players. When I use my legacy system, I play CDs or home recorded cassettes. I'm not a connoisseur of the audio listening experience. For me it's a soundtrack. I can't remember the last time I actually listened to my vinyl LPs because they don't fit in with the way I want to listen to music, although I do still have those vinyl LPs; even some of my old 45s. I keep 'em around in case the CDRs ever wear out. I can go back and rip 'em again if I need to. I have listened to audiophile vinyl on audiophile component systems, including the multi-thousand dollar turntables. But, if/when I have multi-thousands of dollars to spend, I wouldn't spend it on stereo equipment. Maybe a new camera body, a lens or two and I'd put a lot of miles into my next photo-safari. There's 50 states out there; 49 of 'em I intend to see either at least once or at least once more ... and then there's the Orient, Europe, Australia, Africa ... are all calling my name. Ain't no audiophile stereo listening experience good enough to drown that out, and it wouldn't fit into a carry-on anyway. So ... Usual terms and conditions apply. Feed face down, nine edge first. It had a good beat, was easy to dance to - so I'll give it about a 63. Closed course with professional driver. Void where prohibited, licensed or taxed. Do not bend, fold, spindle or mutilate. Your mileage MAY vary! Consult your owners manual for additional details. Don't try this at home kids. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
I've never had an SACD, but it seems like technology is changing so fast it's hard to keep up without pouring $$$ down the drain, especially if the content is not there. We buy and spend like we live forever, and both the stuff and us will last, but it doesn't. So here's a question. Why when CD's first came out did almost every single one have a disclaimer that it might 'show up the faults of the original recording', when in reality it probably was not as good as the original... merely on the noise level? And one other ponderance. Can a digital recording, regardless of the medium one is listening to, be as good as the analog recording? Several more... and a digital recording pressed to a vinyl record, can it be little more than a digital recording... and then of course an analog recording (as in LP), is no more than an inferior copy of the analog source. Tom On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Peter Loveday pe...@loveday.org wrote: The same factors apply to CDs. Audiophile CDs have much better sound quality than the ones you find in the discount bin at WalMart; especially some of the early CD issues of 60s 70s LPs that were digitized straight from the old LP master tapes without any kind of re-mixing, re-mastering ... that's why there are re-issues (one reason anyway). Indeed. There is a lot of quality variation in all formats. But its not like CDs are representative of state-of-the-art digital music formats anyway,nor have been for a long time. Even in consumer equipment, it's been, what, 10 years since SACD/DVDA came on the scene? These suffer from exactly what you talk about though, too many are merely upconversions of CD recordings, themselves often digitized from dodgey analogue masters. But a well mastered SACD/DVDA is pretty damn impressive. Just a shame there's not more stuff being released on them, though its still probably more than the amount of new stuff released on vinyl :( - Peter -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
In that last sentence I meant to say that a digitized copy of an analog source, e.g. vinly LP is simply an inferior digital version. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Tom C caka...@gmail.com wrote: I've never had an SACD, but it seems like technology is changing so fast it's hard to keep up without pouring $$$ down the drain, especially if the content is not there. We buy and spend like we live forever, and both the stuff and us will last, but it doesn't. So here's a question. Why when CD's first came out did almost every single one have a disclaimer that it might 'show up the faults of the original recording', when in reality it probably was not as good as the original... merely on the noise level? And one other ponderance. Can a digital recording, regardless of the medium one is listening to, be as good as the analog recording? Several more... and a digital recording pressed to a vinyl record, can it be little more than a digital recording... and then of course an analog recording (as in LP), is no more than an inferior copy of the analog source. Tom On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Peter Loveday pe...@loveday.org wrote: The same factors apply to CDs. Audiophile CDs have much better sound quality than the ones you find in the discount bin at WalMart; especially some of the early CD issues of 60s 70s LPs that were digitized straight from the old LP master tapes without any kind of re-mixing, re-mastering ... that's why there are re-issues (one reason anyway). Indeed. There is a lot of quality variation in all formats. But its not like CDs are representative of state-of-the-art digital music formats anyway,nor have been for a long time. Even in consumer equipment, it's been, what, 10 years since SACD/DVDA came on the scene? These suffer from exactly what you talk about though, too many are merely upconversions of CD recordings, themselves often digitized from dodgey analogue masters. But a well mastered SACD/DVDA is pretty damn impressive. Just a shame there's not more stuff being released on them, though its still probably more than the amount of new stuff released on vinyl :( - Peter -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
A few things to mention, 80's -90's digital masters are more often than not whats dodgy, not vintage analog masters with regards to SACD/DVDA releases. Only hi rez digitally recorded music recorded after mid 90's is worthy of SACD/DVDA whereas even very old analog masters can generate wonderful SACD/DVDA. Secondly the vinyl music universe isnt really about new releases, its mostly about legacy music and hearing those with best possible presentation which is commonly the original LP on good gear. Lastly, although SACD/DVDA are wonderful improvements over CD, there is a less than a miniscule number of good titles compared to LP, and they are both nearly exinct formats at this point. The sad part is CD's high resolution digital successors came along at the exact same time (~2000) as free mp3s which have essentially killed them off as free mediocre is much more popular than expensive superb. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Peter Loveday Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:44 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital The same factors apply to CDs. Audiophile CDs have much better sound quality than the ones you find in the discount bin at WalMart; especially some of the early CD issues of 60s 70s LPs that were digitized straight from the old LP master tapes without any kind of re-mixing, re-mastering ... that's why there are re-issues (one reason anyway). Indeed. There is a lot of quality variation in all formats. But its not like CDs are representative of state-of-the-art digital music formats anyway,nor have been for a long time. Even in consumer equipment, it's been, what, 10 years since SACD/DVDA came on the scene? These suffer from exactly what you talk about though, too many are merely upconversions of CD recordings, themselves often digitized from dodgey analogue masters. But a well mastered SACD/DVDA is pretty damn impressive. Just a shame there's not more stuff being released on them, though its still probably more than the amount of new stuff released on vinyl :( - Peter -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
well you can have your its all a big marketing scam and my $1000 turntable is as good as the best in the world fantasy, but the reality is that the very best SOUNDING tonearms, turntables, and cartridges are not available or possible at that low a total price. What you are failing to do is understand that to make things audibly better, sometimes its takes a lot of money for the solution and even more importantly, its obvious that you have never actually auditioned a really high end turntable, because if you had you wouldn't be assuming they sound just like a $1000 setup, they DON'T. They are better, and they are hideously more money than $1000 total. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Rob Studdert Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:53 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo On 15/11/2009, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: Not that Onkyo and Pioneer are junk, but they are are a long long away from full vinyl reproduction pinnacle, read my post and comprehend it, I said a $10,000 turntable doesn't sound as good as the best, currently around $100,000. By deduction a $1000 turntable doesn't sound as good as a $100K one either. your still playback gear limited at $1K for sure. John, that's just crap, of course one would hope that more $$$ in gear would equate to improved resolution/fidelity but it's not a rule. At that level for most people it's just another way to say look at me, look at what I have, look at what I can afford, the repro fidelity is secondary. A bit of ABX testing would sort out a lot of the BS that goes on in the ultra-hifi circles, of course most golden eared folk won't go near ABX testing just in case. Just my humble opinion (to which I'm also entitled). -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
damn... what a bunch of aimless wanton wankery... your gear isn't good enough to entitle you to an opinion I know this isn't what was said but it is what transpires... good enough grabs goosebumps from the groove and gets them there... I know passion can take you to extremes and we are all gearheads here but this is going too far even for my humble tastes... please let it be known that from now on I am going to end every single tripod thread on this list by stating that my Novoflex Quadropod has FOUR legs and therefore all of you lousy threeleggers are gear limited and shouldn't waste my time talking about stability that you haven't the foggiest notion of to begin with... and for all who care, my quadropod has the longest AND thickest legs and they are rock hard 24/7... NUFF SAID =P -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
your staying from the point which is that with a $1000 phono setup you cant say you are always or nearly always record limited sonically. $1000 is not nearly enough budget to get the full sound quality of most records, so you are still playback gear limited at that level of gear. Nobody is claiming that a $10,000 turntable sounds 10X better than a $1,000 turntable, whatever that means, but they do sound AUDIBLY BETTER, and thats the point, in order to hear fully the quality of the recording, you have to have the really good playback equipment. Cost to do it and whether its worth the cost to YOU is a separate issue. But you cant rationalize in you mind that a $1000 turntable sounds identical/just as good as a $10K or $100K one just because you dont want to or cannnot afford to buy a $10k or $100K one. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Tom C Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 11:58 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo Rob, I don't understand the ABX testing you mentioned (what is it?), but I do know that quite a bit of the higher end gear is made to appeal to the ego and I agree with your point. So is a $10,000 turntable 10X better than a $1000 turntable, or a $100K turntable 10X better than a $10K turntable?. I sincerely doubt it. That was my point about diminishing returns and as John Sessoms pointed out, there's a lot of different necessities as well as wants vying for priority when it comes to dividing up our own financial pies. Every single turntable from $250 on up makes the same basic claim regarding fidelity. Yes I do believe that spending more money on a given product may yield improvement in quality, but there's both a practical ceiling (i.e., I cannot afford any more) and there's some threshold at which the amount of money spent no longer represents a proprtional linear improvement in quality and may even start becoming inversely proportional to the improvement that's been achieved. Did that make any sense? :-) There's also the wife factor. I may be able to justify and get by with spending a $1000 on a new camera now and then. But if I spent as much money on a hi-fi system as could be spent on a vehicle or a house, my life would not be worth living. Tom On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Rob Studdert distudio.p...@gmail.com wrote: On 15/11/2009, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: Not that Onkyo and Pioneer are junk, but they are are a long long away from full vinyl reproduction pinnacle, read my post and comprehend it, I said a $10,000 turntable doesn't sound as good as the best, currently around $100,000. By deduction a $1000 turntable doesn't sound as good as a $100K one either. your still playback gear limited at $1K for sure. John, that's just crap, of course one would hope that more $$$ in gear would equate to improved resolution/fidelity but it's not a rule. At that level for most people it's just another way to say look at me, look at what I have, look at what I can afford, the repro fidelity is secondary. A bit of ABX testing would sort out a lot of the BS that goes on in the ultra-hifi circles, of course most golden eared folk won't go near ABX testing just in case. Just my humble opinion (to which I'm also entitled). -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
You guya are arguing affordability and prestige factors which having nothing to do with the issue, which is whether for $1000 grand total you can assemble a phono rig capable of the same sonic quality as a $10K or $100K one. You cant. At $1000 you are not nearly as good as it gets so to speak. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Rob Studdert Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:33 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo On 15/11/2009, Tom C caka...@gmail.com wrote: Rob, I don't understand the ABX testing you mentioned (what is it?), Hi Tom et al, Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test Yes I do believe that spending more money on a given product may yield improvement in quality, but there's both a practical ceiling (i.e., I cannot afford any more) and there's some threshold at which the amount of money spent no longer represents a proprtional linear improvement in quality and may even start becoming inversely proportional to the improvement that's been achieved. Did that make any sense? :-) Yes that would be the hope but it's not a rule. Some extraordinary claims, materials and processes accompany top dollar gear often, especially cables. The mind boggles at the gullibility of some. There's also the wife factor. I may be able to justify and get by with spending a $1000 on a new camera now and then. But if I spent as much money on a hi-fi system as could be spent on a vehicle or a house, my life would not be worth living. Indeed, family can also limit options, as soon as my little guy came along most of my good audio gear went into storage, I rarely miss it now. Cheers, -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
ownership has nothing to do with this. I don't own a $100K turntable, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or my or your turntables are just as good as the $100K turntables. You can have opinions based on experinences and auditions, ownerships isnt a requirement. In this case Im just arguing your opinion that your $1K turntable is as good as the the $10k and $100K models or that at $1000 you are record quality limited, is wrong. That level ( fully record limited) of playback performance is not possible for only $1K. It costs much more than that to get the job done as well as possible. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of eckinator Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:40 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo damn... what a bunch of aimless wanton wankery... your gear isn't good enough to entitle you to an opinion I know this isn't what was said but it is what transpires... good enough grabs goosebumps from the groove and gets them there... I know passion can take you to extremes and we are all gearheads here but this is going too far even for my humble tastes... please let it be known that from now on I am going to end every single tripod thread on this list by stating that my Novoflex Quadropod has FOUR legs and therefore all of you lousy threeleggers are gear limited and shouldn't waste my time talking about stability that you haven't the foggiest notion of to begin with... and for all who care, my quadropod has the longest AND thickest legs and they are rock hard 24/7... NUFF SAID =P -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
On 15/11/2009, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: ownership has nothing to do with this. I don't own a $100K turntable, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or my or your turntables are just as good as the $100K turntables. You can have opinions based on experinences and auditions, ownerships isnt a requirement. In this case Im just arguing your opinion that your $1K turntable is as good as the the $10k and $100K models or that at $1000 you are record quality limited, is wrong. That level ( fully record limited) of playback performance is not possible for only $1K. It costs much more than that to get the job done as well as possible. Do you ever actually read what anyone else writes John? Serious question. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
yes, I have recall too. The original contention was in error, $1K doesn't get you to the plateau of turntable performance as suggested. Its just another step of the hill... -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Rob Studdert Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:57 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo On 15/11/2009, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: ownership has nothing to do with this. I don't own a $100K turntable, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or my or your turntables are just as good as the $100K turntables. You can have opinions based on experinences and auditions, ownerships isnt a requirement. In this case Im just arguing your opinion that your $1K turntable is as good as the the $10k and $100K models or that at $1000 you are record quality limited, is wrong. That level ( fully record limited) of playback performance is not possible for only $1K. It costs much more than that to get the job done as well as possible. Do you ever actually read what anyone else writes John? Serious question. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
2009/11/15 J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net: ownership has nothing to do with this. I don't own a $100K turntable, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or my or your turntables are just as good as the $100K turntables. You can have opinions based on experinences and auditions, ownerships isnt a requirement. In this case Im just arguing your opinion that your $1K turntable is as good as the the $10k and $100K models or that at $1000 you are record quality limited, is wrong. That level ( fully record limited) of playback performance is not possible for only $1K. It costs much more than that to get the job done as well as possible. yeah sure and big bucks can sound better than small bucks if the big buck stuff was built by people knowing their stuff but what on earth has this to do any more with the passion that Tom described or the happiness that I felt when my vintage tech windfall brought back something that I cherish very much now... and forget ownership... auditioning a 100K system certainly gives you an opinion that you have no access to without it but quite frankly I don't care - such systems are obscene as long as there are people starving within a half day's flying distance of any given point on the planet... BUT good enough is when the sound makes me want to close my eyes and just listen... back to joseph's captivating here... and I dare to question that one can still let oneself be captivated if there is always a feeling nagging that this could sound better if only I had ... this is why good enough is so important because it places you at peace with your reality... so I question the necessity... take it with however many grains of salt you wish... the only point I find to justify such excess is that it helps to better appreciate the passion others put into creating the recordings... there is no inherent good in expenisve hifi gear; it is only as good as the music played on it... anyhoo please enjoy your thread, maybe it just isn't mine to follow but rather to respectfully ignore Cheers Ecke -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
In a message dated 11/15/2009 3:38:18 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, eckina...@gmail.com writes: anyhoo please enjoy your thread, maybe it just isn't mine to follow but rather to respectfully ignore Cheers Ecke === I kill filed JCO years ago. Lots of us did. Marnie aka Doe - We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:31 PM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Joseph McAllister Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital On Nov 14, 2009, at 13:19 , Tim Bray wrote: If you want your heart to melt, sit down with some Cowboy Junkies in a dark room on a seriously-good audiophile playback system. -Tim or Lucinda WIlliams, Willie Nelson, Leonard Cohen. All perfectionists. All very good singers but, if the angels in heaven sing, they sound like Margo Timmins. William Robb If the angels in heaven sound like Margo Timmins, I'll take hell rather than put up with that awful whining. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
anyhoo please enjoy your thread, maybe it just isn't mine to follow but rather to respectfully ignore Cheers Ecke === I kill filed JCO years ago. Lots of us did. I think he's been mostly correct in this thread, but other people have misconstrued what he's been saying. Unfortunately this just makes him hammer away at the same message over and over, which is rather tiresome. I think we should all adopt a general rule of making our point no more than twice in the same thread. If other people are too dumb to get it, shrug and move on. I say mostly correct rather than wholly correct because his argument has been presented slightly the wrong way round. Instead of saying that the best audio costs a ton of money and vinyl is better than CD at the top quality end (something I'm incapable of judging), his argument reads (mainly) as 'the more you pay for vinyl equipment the better it is, and $ for $ it's better than CD', which is almost certainly nonsense for audio as it is for most other goods - it fails to take into account the Prada factor. http://www.geeksugar.com/284038 Unfortunately a lot of people have responded with a 'horse for courses' argument - you can't commute to work with top-end vinyl equipment, which is true but a non sequitur. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
If you want your heart to melt, sit down with some Cowboy Junkies in a dark room on a seriously-good audiophile playback system. -Tim or Lucinda WIlliams, Willie Nelson, Leonard Cohen. All perfectionists. All very good singers but, if the angels in heaven sing, they sound like Margo Timmins. William Robb If the angels in heaven sound like Margo Timmins, I'll take hell rather than put up with that awful whining. She looks a bit like Margo Thatcher. Same initials too. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
Rob Studdert wrote: Do you ever actually read what anyone else writes John? Serious question. Rob, have you ever read JCO's participation in any other threads? Serious question. ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
- Original Message - From: eckinator Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo damn... what a bunch of aimless wanton wankery... your gear isn't good enough to entitle you to an opinion I know this isn't what was said but it is what transpires... good enough grabs goosebumps from the groove and gets them there... I know passion can take you to extremes and we are all gearheads here but this is going too far even for my humble tastes... please let it be known that from now on I am going to end every single tripod thread on this list by stating that my Novoflex Quadropod has FOUR legs and therefore all of you lousy threeleggers are gear limited and shouldn't waste my time talking about stability that you haven't the foggiest notion of to begin with... and for all who care, my quadropod has the longest AND thickest legs and they are rock hard 24/7... NUFF SAID =P Is it time to check my filtered mail? It sounds like I missed some fun. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
damn... what a bunch of aimless wanton wankery... Mark! (sounds like a closing quote to me...) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
And when you ignore, it just maintains ignorance. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of eactiv...@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:09 AM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, ,exposedinvideo In a message dated 11/15/2009 3:38:18 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, eckina...@gmail.com writes: anyhoo please enjoy your thread, maybe it just isn't mine to follow but rather to respectfully ignore Cheers Ecke === I kill filed JCO years ago. Lots of us did. Marnie aka Doe - We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
NO, YOU ARE INCORRECT, I stand by what I said all along, from approx ~ $400 and up, vinyl sounds better than CD dollar for dollar. CD does not exceed LP sound dollar for dollar except at the very bottom ( ~ $400) sector of the source market. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Bob W Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:28 AM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, ,exposedinvideo anyhoo please enjoy your thread, maybe it just isn't mine to follow but rather to respectfully ignore Cheers Ecke === I kill filed JCO years ago. Lots of us did. I think he's been mostly correct in this thread, but other people have misconstrued what he's been saying. Unfortunately this just makes him hammer away at the same message over and over, which is rather tiresome. I think we should all adopt a general rule of making our point no more than twice in the same thread. If other people are too dumb to get it, shrug and move on. I say mostly correct rather than wholly correct because his argument has been presented slightly the wrong way round. Instead of saying that the best audio costs a ton of money and vinyl is better than CD at the top quality end (something I'm incapable of judging), his argument reads (mainly) as 'the more you pay for vinyl equipment the better it is, and $ for $ it's better than CD', which is almost certainly nonsense for audio as it is for most other goods - it fails to take into account the Prada factor. http://www.geeksugar.com/284038 Unfortunately a lot of people have responded with a 'horse for courses' argument - you can't commute to work with top-end vinyl equipment, which is true but a non sequitur. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
2009/11/15 J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net: And when you ignore, it just maintains ignorance. Yes and I fail to see the fault with that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
O'Yeah? Our three leggers can be set up on uneven ground in 1/100th of the time your behemoth can be drug up the hill! :-) On Nov 15, 2009, at 02:40 , eckinator wrote: damn... what a bunch of aimless wanton wankery... your gear isn't good enough to entitle you to an opinion I know this isn't what was said but it is what transpires... good enough grabs goosebumps from the groove and gets them there... I know passion can take you to extremes and we are all gearheads here but this is going too far even for my humble tastes... please let it be known that from now on I am going to end every single tripod thread on this list by stating that my Novoflex Quadropod has FOUR legs and therefore all of you lousy threeleggers are gear limited and shouldn't waste my time talking about stability that you haven't the foggiest notion of to begin with... and for all who care, my quadropod has the longest AND thickest legs and they are rock hard 24/7... NUFF SAID =P Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com http://gallery.me.com/jomac http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, ,
From: Bob W I think he's been mostly correct in this thread, but other people have misconstrued what he's been saying. Unfortunately this just makes him hammer away at the same message over and over, which is rather tiresome. Perhaps because the *message* that's come through is My way is the ONLY way, and no other way is acceptable. If you don't do it my way you're an idiot. May not be what he meant, but that's the way it came out. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
That's the beauty of it, I just screw on a longer set of legs and use a helicopter and live view... MUAHAHAHAHA ]=) 2009/11/15 Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com: O'Yeah? Our three leggers can be set up on uneven ground in 1/100th of the time your behemoth can be drug up the hill! :-) On Nov 15, 2009, at 02:40 , eckinator wrote: damn... what a bunch of aimless wanton wankery... your gear isn't good enough to entitle you to an opinion I know this isn't what was said but it is what transpires... good enough grabs goosebumps from the groove and gets them there... I know passion can take you to extremes and we are all gearheads here but this is going too far even for my humble tastes... please let it be known that from now on I am going to end every single tripod thread on this list by stating that my Novoflex Quadropod has FOUR legs and therefore all of you lousy threeleggers are gear limited and shouldn't waste my time talking about stability that you haven't the foggiest notion of to begin with... and for all who care, my quadropod has the longest AND thickest legs and they are rock hard 24/7... NUFF SAID =P Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com http://gallery.me.com/jomac http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
On 16/11/2009, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote: Rob Studdert wrote: Do you ever actually read what anyone else writes John? Serious question. Rob, have you ever read JCO's participation in any other threads? Serious question. ;-) OK, I admit, I was a bit bored re-working on tedious old MS pub files, what a mongrel package that is! Quark it is not. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, ,
No it comes out matter of factly on things that ARE matter of fact, why present facts as opinions? That doesn't serve any purpose other than creating confusion. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sessoms Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:05 PM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , From: Bob W I think he's been mostly correct in this thread, but other people have misconstrued what he's been saying. Unfortunately this just makes him hammer away at the same message over and over, which is rather tiresome. Perhaps because the *message* that's come through is My way is the ONLY way, and no other way is acceptable. If you don't do it my way you're an idiot. May not be what he meant, but that's the way it came out. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
On Nov 15, 2009, at 02:41 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: your staying from the point which is that with a $1000 phono setup you cant say you are always or nearly always record limited sonically. $1000 is not nearly enough budget to get the full sound quality of most records, so you are still playback gear limited at that level of gear. Nobody is claiming that a $10,000 turntable sounds 10X better than a $1,000 turntable, whatever that means, but they do sound AUDIBLY BETTER, and that’s the point, in order to hear fully the quality of the recording, you have to have the really good playback equipment. Cost to do it and whether its worth the cost to YOU is a separate issue. But you cant rationalize in you mind that a $1000 turntable sounds identical/just as good as a $10K or $100K one just because you don’t want to or cannnot afford to buy a $10k or $100K one. My experience has been that elitist audiophiles like you, instead of inviting us unwashed in to hear what the hell you blather on about, tend to remain above the fray and merely spout online about that which they (the unwashed) know nothing. An impasse if ever I heard one. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/ That means I know your are correct, but you are so head strong and immovable in your presentation that I'd rather argue that you are wrong just to piss you off. Feel familiar? :-) Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com “ The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.” — Kevan Olesen -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
On 16/11/2009, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: I think he's been mostly correct in this thread, but other people have misconstrued what he's been saying. Unfortunately this just makes him hammer away at the same message over and over, which is rather tiresome. I think we should all adopt a general rule of making our point no more than twice in the same thread. If other people are too dumb to get it, shrug and move on. What's the fun in that? This is the Internet. Seriously though, the argument bigger $$ buys better is flawed, I've heard a heck of a lot of audio gear made by enthusiasts for relatively little money that blows similar commercial products out of the water. It often doesn't not look as pretty though. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
you seem to misunderstand, you cant get state of the art audio gear for low cost, even if you build it yourself. acutally its practically impossible to build state of the art audio gear yourself, there is too much overhead in RD and its not economical to build one-offs, that's even worse the low production items in terms of cost per unit. -- J.C. O'Connell (mailto:hifis...@gate.net) Join the CD PLAYER DISC Discussions : http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdplayers/ http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cdsound/ -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Rob Studdert Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:21 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo On 16/11/2009, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: I think he's been mostly correct in this thread, but other people have misconstrued what he's been saying. Unfortunately this just makes him hammer away at the same message over and over, which is rather tiresome. I think we should all adopt a general rule of making our point no more than twice in the same thread. If other people are too dumb to get it, shrug and move on. What's the fun in that? This is the Internet. Seriously though, the argument bigger $$ buys better is flawed, I've heard a heck of a lot of audio gear made by enthusiasts for relatively little money that blows similar commercial products out of the water. It often doesn't not look as pretty though. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, ,
A loudspeaker by itself is not a good judge of what it's cone transmits into the air. On Nov 15, 2009, at 13:10 , J.C. O'Connell wrote: No it comes out matter of factly on things that ARE matter of fact, why present facts as opinions? That doesn't serve any purpose other than creating confusion. Joseph McAllister Pentaxian http://gallery.me.com/jomac http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital - the all vinyl is noisy myth, , exposedinvideo
On 16/11/2009, J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net wrote: you seem to misunderstand, you cant get state of the art audio gear for low cost, even if you build it yourself. acutally its practically impossible to build state of the art audio gear yourself, there is too much overhead in RD and its not economical to build one-offs, that's even worse the low production items in terms of cost per unit. You're obviously speaking for yourself John, consider that other people may have the skills and resources to design and build top end hi-fi components. Heck where do you think all these little boutique brands sprang from? Sony? -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT: Vinyl vs. Digital
On Nov 15, 2009, at 07:31 , Bob W wrote: If you want your heart to melt, sit down with some Cowboy Junkies in a dark room on a seriously-good audiophile playback system. -Tim or Lucinda WIlliams, Willie Nelson, Leonard Cohen. All perfectionists. All very good singers but, if the angels in heaven sing, they sound like Margo Timmins. William Robb If the angels in heaven sound like Margo Timmins, I'll take hell rather than put up with that awful whining. She looks a bit like Margo Thatcher. Same initials too. You guys are just trying to get away from the JCO circus. :-) Timmins actually has a rather breathy sound, unless she's shouting. She doesn't do that much anymore, because she's within a kicked mule of 50 and wearing out. Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com Gaudeamus igitur, juvenes dum sumus... http://tinyurl.com/ndmfhb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
