Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
I gave my wife an optio i-10 (that little retro compact that was way overpriced at $300) when it dropped down to $100. I set her green button to perform a basic reset, which she thinks is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I toyed with exposure compensation, which it needs since it can really blow out the highlights if left to itself, but her comfort zone is to have a way to guarantee a picture. This thinking sometimes slips into their higher end models. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Larry Colen wrote: > Green mode overrides your configuration and saves the file as jpeg. > > I never used it on anything but snapshots and documentation, but I hate > features that override your own global settings. > > -- > Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est > > > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Apr 19, 2011, at 9:12, Steven Desjardins wrote: > I gave my wife an optio i-10 (that little retro compact that was way > overpriced at $300) when it dropped down to $100. I set her green > button to perform a basic reset, which she thinks is the greatest > thing since sliced bread. I toyed with exposure compensation, which > it needs since it can really blow out the highlights if left to > itself, but her comfort zone is to have a way to guarantee a picture. > This thinking sometimes slips into their higher end models. > Green Button is not the same as "Green Mode"... (Sorry 'bout the inline reply) > On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Larry Colen wrote: >> Green mode overrides your configuration and saves the file as jpeg. >> >> I never used it on anything but snapshots and documentation, but I hate >> features that override your own global settings. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Green mode is meant to be an "idiot mode," if you'll pardon the expression. It's there so that someone with no knowledge of photography can pick up the camera and get suitable results. Overriding any settings that were accidentally tweaked is obviously part of that plan. For more advanced users, who want to preserve their settings but still shoot without much thought, there is the P or program mode. It will pick an exposure for you if you just want to pick up the camera and shoot, but it will do that in respect to your menu selections. You wouldn't want a green mode that did exactly the same thing. Paul On Apr 19, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Charles Robinson wrote: > On Apr 19, 2011, at 9:12, Steven Desjardins wrote: > >> I gave my wife an optio i-10 (that little retro compact that was way >> overpriced at $300) when it dropped down to $100. I set her green >> button to perform a basic reset, which she thinks is the greatest >> thing since sliced bread. I toyed with exposure compensation, which >> it needs since it can really blow out the highlights if left to >> itself, but her comfort zone is to have a way to guarantee a picture. >> This thinking sometimes slips into their higher end models. >> > > Green Button is not the same as "Green Mode"... (Sorry 'bout the inline > reply) > >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Larry Colen wrote: >>> Green mode overrides your configuration and saves the file as jpeg. >>> >>> I never used it on anything but snapshots and documentation, but I hate >>> features that override your own global settings. > > -Charles > > -- > Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com > Minneapolis, MN > http://charles.robinsontwins.org > http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? And for those people to tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is needed so they can get a passible photograph? Or even know that they need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the camera so inappropriately? Seems kinda ridiculous. If I hand my camera to someone I know isn't a sophisticated user, I set it up for them and tell them what to go to get a good photograph. I don't expect the inexperienced user to know that the camera should be in "green mode." My cameras (and the K5, etc) all have the capability to store custom user configurations that the owner can set up to do the same job if this is a frequent need. -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
The Optio actually has a physical green button just like the DSLRs. It's a wildcard button, and I set it to green mode for my wife. (Sorry for the confusion.) I may see if I can convince here to use the exposure compensation. Since the LCD is 16:9, you get the whole live view with a tiny live histogram to one side. If you could flick the exposure comp around, it might be really handy for saving those highlights. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Charles Robinson wrote: > On Apr 19, 2011, at 9:12, Steven Desjardins wrote: > >> I gave my wife an optio i-10 (that little retro compact that was way >> overpriced at $300) when it dropped down to $100. I set her green >> button to perform a basic reset, which she thinks is the greatest >> thing since sliced bread. I toyed with exposure compensation, which >> it needs since it can really blow out the highlights if left to >> itself, but her comfort zone is to have a way to guarantee a picture. >> This thinking sometimes slips into their higher end models. >> > > Green Button is not the same as "Green Mode"... (Sorry 'bout the inline > reply) > >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Larry Colen wrote: >>> Green mode overrides your configuration and saves the file as jpeg. >>> >>> I never used it on anything but snapshots and documentation, but I hate >>> features that override your own global settings. > > -Charles > > -- > Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com > Minneapolis, MN > http://charles.robinsontwins.org > http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Yes they do, and yes they do. On 4/19/2011 11:36 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? And for those people to tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is needed so they can get a passible photograph? Or even know that they need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the camera so inappropriately? Seems kinda ridiculous. If I hand my camera to someone I know isn't a sophisticated user, I set it up for them and tell them what to go to get a good photograph. I don't expect the inexperienced user to know that the camera should be in "green mode." My cameras (and the K5, etc) all have the capability to store custom user configurations that the owner can set up to do the same job if this is a frequent need. -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
The answer to the third question is "maybe". ;-) On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 12:11 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: > Yes they do, and yes they do. > > On 4/19/2011 11:36 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: >> >> It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing >> $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect >> newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? And for those people to >> tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is >> needed so they can get a passible photograph? Or even know that they >> need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the >> camera so inappropriately? >> >> Seems kinda ridiculous. If I hand my camera to someone I know isn't a >> sophisticated user, I set it up for them and tell them what to go to >> get a good photograph. I don't expect the inexperienced user to know >> that the camera should be in "green mode." My cameras (and the K5, >> etc) all have the capability to store custom user configurations that >> the owner can set up to do the same job if this is a frequent need. > > > -- > Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! > > --Marvin the Martian. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Apr 19, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: > It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing > $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect > newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of experience or knowledge has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how long sportscars have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern ones that arguably can out perform human shifting. > And for those people to > tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is > needed so they can get a passible photograph? How about Steve Wozniak and his stunt in a Beech Bonanza, which has a lot to do with why Scotts Valley has a K-mart and not an airstrip. > Or even know that they > need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the > camera so inappropriately? > > Seems kinda ridiculous. If I hand my camera to someone I know isn't a > sophisticated user, I set it up for them and tell them what to go to > get a good photograph. I don't expect the inexperienced user to know > that the camera should be in "green mode." I have to admit, the green mode does do a pretty good job of choosing the settings, but I'd expect that file format would be the one that it should let the camera owner choose. I've handed my camera to other people a few times over the years, and my quick stab at the settings often failed miserably. > My cameras (and the K5, > etc) all have the capability to store custom user configurations that > the owner can set up to do the same job if this is a frequent need. > -- > Godfrey > godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Larry Colen wrote: > > On Apr 19, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: > >> It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing >> $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect >> newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? > > I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of experience > or knowledge has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. ... Rich people buy Leicas, Nikons, lots of stuff for their presumed status symbol qualities. Sorry, but a Pentax K5 has no cred as a status symbol. The biggest status acknowledgement that a Pentax camera ever got me was, "Hey, I like Pentax. Had one when I was in high school. Great cheap camera! Then I got my Nikon ... cost me a bundle but man! is it nice!" This from a gentleman who had difficulty noticing that his lens cap was still fitted ... on an SLR. Real photographers buy Leicas to shoot after living on a diet of salad, ramen noodles and peanut butter for a year or three. They don't waste a penny on green modes. Whether they take pictures of any particular merit better than the previously mentioned fellow is, of course, a question mark. ];-) -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Does a K-5 "need" a green mode? Not really. Is it of benefit? I think so, yes. I never use it myself. But there have been a number of occasions where I hand my camera to somebody else for them to get a few shots. That's when I appreciate the "idiot proofing" of the green mode. It's not 100% safe - a really talented idiot will still find a way to mess things up. But, in my experience, somebody who thinks they know what they are doing, but who isn't fully conversant with the way my particular camera operates, is far more likely to get things wrong than somebody who expects all cameras to act like a point-and-shoot. Not everybody wants the daunting interface of a K-5/K-10D/whatever - that's why my wife has an Olympus E-PL1 rather than an E-P2, and why she never takes it out of full-on automatic mode. But until we got that camera putting one extra "green mode" setting on the dial was a lot simpler than making me carry a second body in case my wife wanted to take a few photographs. Nothing's perfect, of course - the most recent screwup was last year, when the full-time-focus-adjust of the DA* lenses caused a reasonably competent photographer to de-focus several shots when he really wanted to adjust the framing slightly but played with the wrong control. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Moin, If you don't use the automatic modus, which I knew before. Which modes are you using for your daily pictures? Full manual or do you use something in between or do you change it from picture to picture or more precise from location to location. Thomas 2011/4/19 John Francis : > > Does a K-5 "need" a green mode? Not really. > > Is it of benefit? I think so, yes. > > I never use it myself. But there have been a number of occasions > where I hand my camera to somebody else for them to get a few shots. > > That's when I appreciate the "idiot proofing" of the green mode. > It's not 100% safe - a really talented idiot will still find a way > to mess things up. But, in my experience, somebody who thinks they > know what they are doing, but who isn't fully conversant with the way > my particular camera operates, is far more likely to get things wrong > than somebody who expects all cameras to act like a point-and-shoot. > > Not everybody wants the daunting interface of a K-5/K-10D/whatever - > that's why my wife has an Olympus E-PL1 rather than an E-P2, and > why she never takes it out of full-on automatic mode. But until we > got that camera putting one extra "green mode" setting on the dial > was a lot simpler than making me carry a second body in case my wife > wanted to take a few photographs. > > Nothing's perfect, of course - the most recent screwup was last year, > when the full-time-focus-adjust of the DA* lenses caused a reasonably > competent photographer to de-focus several shots when he really wanted > to adjust the framing slightly but played with the wrong control. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Apr 19, 2011, at 11:50 AM, Thomas Bohn wrote: > Moin, > > If you don't use the automatic modus, which I knew before. Which modes > are you using for your daily pictures? > > Full manual or do you use something in between or do you change it > from picture to picture or more precise from location to location. I'm not sure who Moin is, but I've never shied from replying to emails addressed to someone other than me I think that a large part of the skill of using a camera is to know when to use what level of automation. If I'm shooting action under variable lighting, I'll often use an automatic exposure mode because that'll give better exposure for more photos than staying in manual mode. I find that TAv mode is perfect for this. I set the shutterspeed and aperture I need and get the best ISO that I can. I find that if I really care about a shot, the process that works the best for me is to treat the histogram as a handheld lightmeter. I'll take a few shots to dial in the exposure. Once I've got it set, it usually works for any subsequent shots I take in that location. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On 19/4/11, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: >It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing >$1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect >newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? And for those people to >tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is >needed so they can get a passible photograph? Or even know that they >need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the >camera so inappropriately? I was thinking the same thing but I could envisage a situation where you're a a party and a trusted friend wants to take some pics, but knows nothing about photography - set to green mode and let them play :) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
> Real photographers buy Leicas to shoot after living on a diet of > salad, ramen noodles and peanut butter for a year or three. They don't > waste a penny on green modes. Whether they take pictures of any > particular merit better than the previously mentioned fellow is, of > course, a question mark. > > ];-) > -- > Godfrey buying a Leica instantly turns you into a great photographer. That's why they're so expensive. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On 19/4/11, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: >buying a Leica instantly turns you into a great photographer. That's why >they're so expensive. When are you sending in yours for repair? ---> ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Well Cnon semi pro bodies need Macro mode, Portrait mode etc. Funny there's no cat mode, dog mode (one for small and one for bigger dogs) and why not a Fish in the aquarium mode ? 2011/4/19 Godfrey DiGiorgi : > It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing > $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect > newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? And for those people to > tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is > needed so they can get a passible photograph? Or even know that they > need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the > camera so inappropriately? > > Seems kinda ridiculous. If I hand my camera to someone I know isn't a > sophisticated user, I set it up for them and tell them what to go to > get a good photograph. I don't expect the inexperienced user to know > that the camera should be in "green mode." My cameras (and the K5, > etc) all have the capability to store custom user configurations that > the owner can set up to do the same job if this is a frequent need. > -- > Godfrey > godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille/Thibs -- Photo: K-7, Sigma 28/1.8 macro, FA50/1.4, DA40Ltd, K30/2.8, DA16-45, DA50-135, DA50-200, 360FGZ KX, MX, SuperA+Motor, Z1, P30 Mamiya C330+80/2.8 Sekonic L-208 FalconEyes TE300D x2 Studio flashes Laptop: Macbook 13" Unibody SnowLeo/Win7 Programing: Delphi 2009 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
> Green mode overrides your configuration and saves the file as jpeg. > > I never used it on anything but snapshots and documentation, but I hate > features that override your own global settings. > > -- > Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est modes are bad in user interfaces. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
The only problem is that it doesn't override all settings. I've got my OK button set to enable AF, and turning to the Green mode doesn't change that. It would be really nice if I could hand the camera to someone without explaining how to focus. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote: > Green mode is meant to be an "idiot mode," if you'll pardon the expression. > It's there so that someone with no knowledge of photography can pick up the > camera and get suitable results. Overriding any settings that were > accidentally tweaked is obviously part of that plan. For more advanced users, > who want to preserve their settings but still shoot without much thought, > there is the P or program mode. It will pick an exposure for you if you just > want to pick up the camera and shoot, but it will do that in respect to your > menu selections. You wouldn't want a green mode that did exactly the same > thing. > > Paul > > > > On Apr 19, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Charles Robinson wrote: > >> On Apr 19, 2011, at 9:12, Steven Desjardins wrote: >> >>> I gave my wife an optio i-10 (that little retro compact that was way >>> overpriced at $300) when it dropped down to $100. I set her green >>> button to perform a basic reset, which she thinks is the greatest >>> thing since sliced bread. I toyed with exposure compensation, which >>> it needs since it can really blow out the highlights if left to >>> itself, but her comfort zone is to have a way to guarantee a picture. >>> This thinking sometimes slips into their higher end models. >>> >> >> Green Button is not the same as "Green Mode"... (Sorry 'bout the inline >> reply) >> >>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Larry Colen wrote: Green mode overrides your configuration and saves the file as jpeg. I never used it on anything but snapshots and documentation, but I hate features that override your own global settings. >> >> -Charles >> >> -- >> Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com >> Minneapolis, MN >> http://charles.robinsontwins.org >> http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- David Parsons Photography http://www.davidparsonsphoto.com Aloha Photographer Photoblog http://alohaphotog.blogspot.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On 4/19/2011 3:06 PM, Bob W wrote: Real photographers buy Leicas to shoot after living on a diet of salad, ramen noodles and peanut butter for a year or three. They don't waste a penny on green modes. Whether they take pictures of any particular merit better than the previously mentioned fellow is, of course, a question mark. ];-) -- Godfrey buying a Leica instantly turns you into a great photographer. That's why they're so expensive. B It doesn't make you just a great photographer, but one of *The* *Great* *Photographers* at the right hand of St Ansel in the pantheon, or maybe above him, I never could get that right. -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Child and Childproof modes as well. On 4/19/2011 4:31 PM, Thibouille wrote: Well Cnon semi pro bodies need Macro mode, Portrait mode etc. Funny there's no cat mode, dog mode (one for small and one for bigger dogs) and why not a Fish in the aquarium mode ? 2011/4/19 Godfrey DiGiorgi: It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? And for those people to tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is needed so they can get a passible photograph? Or even know that they need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the camera so inappropriately? Seems kinda ridiculous. If I hand my camera to someone I know isn't a sophisticated user, I set it up for them and tell them what to go to get a good photograph. I don't expect the inexperienced user to know that the camera should be in "green mode." My cameras (and the K5, etc) all have the capability to store custom user configurations that the owner can set up to do the same job if this is a frequent need. -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
> From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of > Cotty > >buying a Leica instantly turns you into a great photographer. That's > why > >they're so expensive. > > When are you sending in yours for repair? > > > > > > > ---> ;-) > you wouldn't recognise great photography if it crawled out of the toilet and bit you on the haemorrhoids... B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Yes, people do buy expensive and/or sophisticated cameras without any knowledge of photography, or of what the camera can do. I once encountered the titled heir to a Belgian beer empire who owned a Leica - probably an M3, given the era, who complained it wasn't working properly and took to it with a nail file. Turned out it was something really simple he'd no knowledge of - unfortunately I no longer remember what it was! John Coyle Brisbane, Australia -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Larry Colen Sent: Wednesday, 20 April 2011 2:59 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten On Apr 19, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: > It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing > $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect > newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of experience or knowledge has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how long sportscars have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern ones that arguably can out perform human shifting. > And for those people to > tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is > needed so they can get a passible photograph? How about Steve Wozniak and his stunt in a Beech Bonanza, which has a lot to do with why Scotts Valley has a K-mart and not an airstrip. > Or even know that they > need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the > camera so inappropriately? > > Seems kinda ridiculous. If I hand my camera to someone I know isn't a > sophisticated user, I set it up for them and tell them what to go to > get a good photograph. I don't expect the inexperienced user to know > that the camera should be in "green mode." I have to admit, the green mode does do a pretty good job of choosing the settings, but I'd expect that file format would be the one that it should let the camera owner choose. I've handed my camera to other people a few times over the years, and my quick stab at the settings often failed miserably. > My cameras (and the K5, > etc) all have the capability to store custom user configurations that > the owner can set up to do the same job if this is a frequent need. > -- > Godfrey > godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
> Yes, people do buy expensive and/or sophisticated cameras without any > knowledge of > photography, or of what the camera can do. I once encountered the > titled heir to a > Belgian beer empire who owned a Leica - probably an M3, given the era, > who complained it > wasn't working properly and took to it with a nail file. Turned out it > was something > really simple he'd no knowledge of - unfortunately I no longer remember > what it was! > > > John Coyle > Brisbane, Australia > if you are the titled heir to a Belgian beer company, no camera is expensive. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:03 PM, John Coyle wrote: > Yes, people do buy expensive and/or sophisticated cameras without any > knowledge of > photography, or of what the camera can do. I once encountered the titled > heir to a > Belgian beer empire who owned a Leica - probably an M3, given the era, who > complained it > wasn't working properly and took to it with a nail file. Turned out it was > something > really simple he'd no knowledge of - unfortunately I no longer remember what > it was! There are a lot of people at the horse shows now, and i suppose other sport events, that do not rely on me for photos anymore but have bought them self's the latest Canon and Nikon Dslr's. They put them in auto mode and shoot away. They eventually come up and ask me why my pictures are clear and in focus and theirs are not. They had no idea they could change settings. Either the sales person neglected, or they just did not RTFM. I suspect the later. Dave > > > John Coyle > Brisbane, Australia > > > > -Original Message- > From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Larry > Colen > Sent: Wednesday, 20 April 2011 2:59 AM > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten > > > On Apr 19, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: > >> It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing >> $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect >> newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? > > I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of experience > or knowledge > has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how > long sportscars > have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern ones > that > arguably can out perform human shifting. > >> And for those people to >> tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is >> needed so they can get a passible photograph? > > How about Steve Wozniak and his stunt in a Beech Bonanza, which has a lot to > do with why > Scotts Valley has a K-mart and not an airstrip. > > >> Or even know that they >> need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the >> camera so inappropriately? >> >> Seems kinda ridiculous. If I hand my camera to someone I know isn't a >> sophisticated user, I set it up for them and tell them what to go to >> get a good photograph. I don't expect the inexperienced user to know >> that the camera should be in "green mode." > > I have to admit, the green mode does do a pretty good job of choosing the > settings, but > I'd expect that file format would be the one that it should let the camera > owner choose. > I've handed my camera to other people a few times over the years, and my > quick stab at the > settings often failed miserably. > >> My cameras (and the K5, >> etc) all have the capability to store custom user configurations that >> the owner can set up to do the same job if this is a frequent need. >> -- >> Godfrey >> godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the > directions. > > -- > Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est > > > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the > directions. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:50 PM, David J Brooks wrote: > > There are a lot of people at the horse shows now, and i suppose other > sport events, that do not rely on me for photos anymore but have > bought them self's the latest Canon and Nikon Dslr's. > They put them in auto mode and shoot away. > They eventually come up and ask me why my pictures are clear and in > focus and theirs are not. > They had no idea they could change settings. Either the sales person > neglected, or they just did not RTFM. > > I suspect the later. > > Dave >> Buying an expensive sophisticated camera and expecting that the owner will suddenly become a good photographer is kinda like buying a Cadillac Escalade for your teenager and expecting it will make them a good driver. Hope springs eternal. stan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Apr 19, 2011, at 4:50 PM, David J Brooks wrote: > On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:03 PM, John Coyle wrote: >> Yes, people do buy expensive and/or sophisticated cameras without any >> knowledge of >> photography, or of what the camera can do. I once encountered the titled >> heir to a >> Belgian beer empire who owned a Leica - probably an M3, given the era, who >> complained it >> wasn't working properly and took to it with a nail file. Turned out it was >> something >> really simple he'd no knowledge of - unfortunately I no longer remember what >> it was! > > There are a lot of people at the horse shows now, and i suppose other > sport events, that do not rely on me for photos anymore but have > bought them self's the latest Canon and Nikon Dslr's. > They put them in auto mode and shoot away. > They eventually come up and ask me why my pictures are clear and in > focus and theirs are not. And you said "Because I know how to take clear photographs, which is why it's worth the money to buy them from me." > They had no idea they could change settings. Either the sales person > neglected, or they just did not RTFM. > > I suspect the later. > > Dave >> >> >> John Coyle >> Brisbane, Australia >> >> >> >> -Original Message----- >> From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of >> Larry Colen >> Sent: Wednesday, 20 April 2011 2:59 AM >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> Subject: Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten >> >> >> On Apr 19, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: >> >>> It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing >>> $1500+ need a "green mode"? Does Pentax (or anyone else) really expect >>> newbies to spend $1500 for a camera body? >> >> I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of >> experience or knowledge >> has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how >> long sportscars >> have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern >> ones that >> arguably can out perform human shifting. >> >>> And for those people to >>> tweak the settings inappropriately enough that a special mode is >>> needed so they can get a passible photograph? >> >> How about Steve Wozniak and his stunt in a Beech Bonanza, which has a lot to >> do with why >> Scotts Valley has a K-mart and not an airstrip. >> >> >>> Or even know that they >>> need to switch to "green mode" if they know little enough to set the >>> camera so inappropriately? >>> >>> Seems kinda ridiculous. If I hand my camera to someone I know isn't a >>> sophisticated user, I set it up for them and tell them what to go to >>> get a good photograph. I don't expect the inexperienced user to know >>> that the camera should be in "green mode." >> >> I have to admit, the green mode does do a pretty good job of choosing the >> settings, but >> I'd expect that file format would be the one that it should let the camera >> owner choose. >> I've handed my camera to other people a few times over the years, and my >> quick stab at the >> settings often failed miserably. >> >>> My cameras (and the K5, >>> etc) all have the capability to store custom user configurations that >>> the owner can set up to do the same job if this is a frequent need. >>> -- >>> Godfrey >>> godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> follow the >> directions. >> >> -- >> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the >> directions. >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > > -- > Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. > www.caughtinmotion.com > http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ > York Region, Ontario, Canada > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
From: Larry Colen Green mode overrides your configuration and saves the file as jpeg. I never used it on anything but snapshots and documentation, but I hate features that override your own global settings. I've never used it, but I thought you could configure "Green mode" in the menus to choose what it does? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On 19/4/11, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed: >you wouldn't recognise great photography if it crawled out of the toilet and >bit you on the haemorrhoids... This is true! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Godfrey DiGiorgi writes: > It's always been a question mark to me ... Why does a camera costing > $1500+ need a "green mode"? Well, if a non-technical everyday Joe is going to use a camera for point-and-shoot snapshot photography, and rely totally on the camera to do its job automatically, I'd say his best bet is a really expensive camera with a really advanced "green mode". The top-of-the-line DSLRs are probably the best point-and-shoot cameras on the market today. So, even if most people buy cheap ones, putting the smarts in there in the top models helps target them successfully at wealthy snapshotters. -tih -- I don't believe that souls or bodies can be changed by incantation. --Christopher Hitchens -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Except that's the sales pitch, in pretty much any advert. that I can remember anyway. On 4/19/2011 8:33 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:50 PM, David J Brooks wrote: There are a lot of people at the horse shows now, and i suppose other sport events, that do not rely on me for photos anymore but have bought them self's the latest Canon and Nikon Dslr's. They put them in auto mode and shoot away. They eventually come up and ask me why my pictures are clear and in focus and theirs are not. They had no idea they could change settings. Either the sales person neglected, or they just did not RTFM. I suspect the later. Dave Buying an expensive sophisticated camera and expecting that the owner will suddenly become a good photographer is kinda like buying a Cadillac Escalade for your teenager and expecting it will make them a good driver. Hope springs eternal. stan -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
OK, here's a question: in 10, 25, 50 years, whatever, do you think that cameras will have enough intelligence to focus and expose better than humans, even experienced photographers? I'll assume that composition is left to the person (for now). Of course, it's also possible that the cameras will simply capture so much information that these settings will be essentially irrelevant. On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:28 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: > Except that's the sales pitch, in pretty much any advert. that I can > remember anyway. > > On 4/19/2011 8:33 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: >> >> On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:50 PM, David J Brooks wrote: >>> >>> There are a lot of people at the horse shows now, and i suppose other >>> sport events, that do not rely on me for photos anymore but have >>> bought them self's the latest Canon and Nikon Dslr's. >>> They put them in auto mode and shoot away. >>> They eventually come up and ask me why my pictures are clear and in >>> focus and theirs are not. >>> They had no idea they could change settings. Either the sales person >>> neglected, or they just did not RTFM. >>> >>> I suspect the later. >>> >>> Dave >> >> Buying an expensive sophisticated camera and expecting that the owner will >> suddenly become a good photographer is kinda like buying a Cadillac Escalade >> for your teenager and expecting it will make them a good driver. Hope >> springs eternal. >> >> stan >> >> >> > > > -- > Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! > > --Marvin the Martian. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Sure you could program in an aesthetic sense ability but it would pretty much follow rules, so either you'd get the general rules that make a good photograph, which you can find in any discussion of the rule of thirds and the golden section in a beginning to intermediate book on art or photography, or you'll get some programmers quirky idea of what makes a photograph good, or most likely someones attempt at distilling all "good" photographs, into some kind of mathamatical model for each photo, then averaging them all together. The third option is the least likely to produce anything actually good, so I expect that is the method that will be most popular. On 4/20/2011 11:45 AM, Steven Desjardins wrote: OK, here's a question: in 10, 25, 50 years, whatever, do you think that cameras will have enough intelligence to focus and expose better than humans, even experienced photographers? I'll assume that composition is left to the person (for now). Of course, it's also possible that the cameras will simply capture so much information that these settings will be essentially irrelevant. On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:28 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: Except that's the sales pitch, in pretty much any advert. that I can remember anyway. On 4/19/2011 8:33 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:50 PM, David J Brooks wrote: There are a lot of people at the horse shows now, and i suppose other sport events, that do not rely on me for photos anymore but have bought them self's the latest Canon and Nikon Dslr's. They put them in auto mode and shoot away. They eventually come up and ask me why my pictures are clear and in focus and theirs are not. They had no idea they could change settings. Either the sales person neglected, or they just did not RTFM. I suspect the later. Dave Buying an expensive sophisticated camera and expecting that the owner will suddenly become a good photographer is kinda like buying a Cadillac Escalade for your teenager and expecting it will make them a good driver. Hope springs eternal. stan -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
The last option would be for serious types and shift almost everything to the PS stage, e.g., control your DoF, etc. The ultimate RAW file. On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:39 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: > Sure you could program in an aesthetic sense ability but it would pretty > much follow rules, so either you'd get the general rules that make a good > photograph, which you can find in any discussion of the rule of thirds and > the golden section in a beginning to intermediate book on art or > photography, or you'll get some programmers quirky idea of what makes a > photograph good, or most likely someones attempt at distilling all "good" > photographs, into some kind of mathamatical model for each photo, then > averaging them all together. The third option is the least likely to produce > anything actually good, so I expect that is the method that will be most > popular. > > On 4/20/2011 11:45 AM, Steven Desjardins wrote: >> >> OK, here's a question: in 10, 25, 50 years, whatever, do you think >> that cameras will have enough intelligence to focus and expose better >> than humans, even experienced photographers? I'll assume that >> composition is left to the person (for now). Of course, it's also >> possible that the cameras will simply capture so much information that >> these settings will be essentially irrelevant. >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:28 AM, P. J. Alling >> wrote: >>> >>> Except that's the sales pitch, in pretty much any advert. that I can >>> remember anyway. >>> >>> On 4/19/2011 8:33 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:50 PM, David J Brooks wrote: > > There are a lot of people at the horse shows now, and i suppose other > sport events, that do not rely on me for photos anymore but have > bought them self's the latest Canon and Nikon Dslr's. > They put them in auto mode and shoot away. > They eventually come up and ask me why my pictures are clear and in > focus and theirs are not. > They had no idea they could change settings. Either the sales person > neglected, or they just did not RTFM. > > I suspect the later. > > Dave Buying an expensive sophisticated camera and expecting that the owner will suddenly become a good photographer is kinda like buying a Cadillac Escalade for your teenager and expecting it will make them a good driver. Hope springs eternal. stan >>> >>> -- >>> Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! >>> >>> --Marvin the Martian. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> follow the directions. >>> >> >> > > > -- > Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! > > --Marvin the Martian. > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- Steve Desjardins -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Behalf Of Larry Colen I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of experience or knowledge has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how long sports cars have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern ones that arguably can out perform human shifting. I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in shifting, it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my manual. Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an auto. However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased MPG. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Apr 20, 2011, at 10:25 AM, John Sessoms wrote: > On Behalf Of Larry Colen > >> I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of >> experience or knowledge >> has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how >> long sports cars >> have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern >> ones that >> arguably can out perform human shifting. > > I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in shifting, it > doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my manual. > > Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an auto. > However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the > engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased MPG. The modern dual-clutch transmissions don't suffer from that problem, they do weigh a bit more, and are more expensive than manual transmissions, but they can shift in a small fraction of the time, and can also run in manual mode. When the overdrive on my MGB worked (since replaced with a ford 5-speed), I learned an appreciation of shifting without taking my hands off the wheel. Interestingly, despite the propensity of auto enthusiasts to prefer manual transmissions, over the past 20 years of teaching performance driving at racetracks, I've had a very small percentage of students that were actually proficient at shifting. I suspect that something similar is true of photographic skills. I'm sure that it would be very enlightening for me to spend some time with someone who really knows how to use a camera. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On 2011-04-20 10:39 , P. J. Alling wrote: Sure you could program in an aesthetic sense ability but it would pretty much follow rules, so either you'd get the general rules that make a good photograph, which you can find in any discussion of the rule of thirds and the golden section in a beginning to intermediate book on art or photography, or you'll get some programmers quirky idea of what makes a photograph good, or most likely someones attempt at distilling all "good" photographs, into some kind of mathamatical model for each photo, then averaging them all together. or the camera keeps track of what's popular, forecasts trends, and shoot shots that will be most popular tomorrow; of course in such a world popularity won't be as popular as it is today -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
In the future when you purchase you camera, you won't have to travel to capture your images or worry about the light or the composition - the 'camera' will come with all possible images already captured and stored in the memory. Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "Steven Desjardins" Subject: Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten OK, here's a question: in 10, 25, 50 years, whatever, do you think that cameras will have enough intelligence to focus and expose better than humans, even experienced photographers? I'll assume that composition is left to the person (for now). Of course, it's also possible that the cameras will simply capture so much information that these settings will be essentially irrelevant. On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:28 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: Except that's the sales pitch, in pretty much any advert. that I can remember anyway. On 4/19/2011 8:33 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:50 PM, David J Brooks wrote: There are a lot of people at the horse shows now, and i suppose other sport events, that do not rely on me for photos anymore but have bought them self's the latest Canon and Nikon Dslr's. They put them in auto mode and shoot away. They eventually come up and ask me why my pictures are clear and in focus and theirs are not. They had no idea they could change settings. Either the sales person neglected, or they just did not RTFM. I suspect the later. Dave Buying an expensive sophisticated camera and expecting that the owner will suddenly become a good photographer is kinda like buying a Cadillac Escalade for your teenager and expecting it will make them a good driver. Hope springs eternal. stan -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Ken Waller wrote: > In the future when you purchase you camera, you won't have to travel to > capture your images or worry about the light or the composition - the > 'camera' will come with all possible images already captured and stored in > the memory. And most people will still think that every single one of them needs to go on Facebook. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Apr 20, 2011, at 1:25 PM, John Sessoms wrote: > On Behalf Of Larry Colen > >> I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of >> experience or knowledge >> has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how >> long sports cars >> have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern >> ones that >> arguably can out perform human shifting. > > I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in shifting, it > doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my manual. > > Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an auto. > However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the > engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased MPG. > The poor fuel efficiency of automatic transmission cars was usually due to torque converter slippage. That device has been replaced in recent years with double clutch mechanisms or lock up converters. Many automatic transmission cars now get better mileage than their manual trans counterparts. The "automatic" transmision of the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano is shifted by means of steering wheel padles that accomplish gear changes in as little as 1/10th of a second. It is reportedly "fun to drive." Paul > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "John Sessoms" Subject: RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten On Behalf Of Larry Colen I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of experience or knowledge has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how long sports cars have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern ones that arguably can out perform human shifting. I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in shifting, it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my manual. Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an auto. However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased MPG. I'm not sure that (mileage improvement) would hold true over the new dual clutch gearboxes on the same engines. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
HDR'd sunset kittens will always be popular. On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 2:41 PM, steve harley wrote: > On 2011-04-20 10:39 , P. J. Alling wrote: >> >> Sure you could program in an aesthetic sense ability but it would pretty >> much follow rules, so either you'd get the general rules that make a >> good photograph, which you can find in any discussion of the rule of >> thirds and the golden section in a beginning to intermediate book on art >> or photography, or you'll get some programmers quirky idea of what makes >> a photograph good, or most likely someones attempt at distilling all >> "good" photographs, into some kind of mathamatical model for each photo, >> then averaging them all together. > > or the camera keeps track of what's popular, forecasts trends, and shoot > shots that will be most popular tomorrow; of course in such a world > popularity won't be as popular as it is today > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. > -- David Parsons Photography http://www.davidparsonsphoto.com Aloha Photographer Photoblog http://alohaphotog.blogspot.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
From: Steven Desjardins OK, here's a question: in 10, 25, 50 years, whatever, do you think that cameras will have enough intelligence to focus and expose better than humans, even experienced photographers? I'll assume that composition is left to the person (for now). Of course, it's also possible that the cameras will simply capture so much information that these settings will be essentially irrelevant. I would predict the answer is YES; just about the time they invent a computer that does what I want it to do, rather than what I tell it to do. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
From: Larry Colen On Apr 20, 2011, at 10:25 AM, John Sessoms wrote: On Behalf Of Larry Colen I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of experience or knowledge has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how long sports cars have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern ones that arguably can out perform human shifting. I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in shifting, it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my manual. Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an auto. However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased MPG. The modern dual-clutch transmissions don't suffer from that problem, they do weigh a bit more, and are more expensive than manual transmissions, but they can shift in a small fraction of the time, and can also run in manual mode. When the overdrive on my MGB worked (since replaced with a ford 5-speed), I learned an appreciation of shifting without taking my hands off the wheel. Interestingly, despite the propensity of auto enthusiasts to prefer manual transmissions, over the past 20 years of teaching performance driving at racetracks, I've had a very small percentage of students that were actually proficient at shifting. I suspect that something similar is true of photographic skills. I'm sure that it would be very enlightening for me to spend some time with someone who really knows how to use a camera. Whether I'm any good at it or not, the manual transmission is still more fun for me to drive. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
From: Paul Stenquist On Apr 20, 2011, at 1:25 PM, John Sessoms wrote: On Behalf Of Larry Colen I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of experience or knowledge has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how long sports cars have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern ones that arguably can out perform human shifting. I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in shifting, it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my manual. Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an auto. However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased MPG. The poor fuel efficiency of automatic transmission cars was usually due to torque converter slippage. That device has been replaced in recent years with double clutch mechanisms or lock up converters. Many automatic transmission cars now get better mileage than their manual trans counterparts. The "automatic" transmision of the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano is shifted by means of steering wheel padles that accomplish gear changes in as little as 1/10th of a second. It is reportedly "fun to drive." Paul So, does this mean you're offering to trade your Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano for my Focus Wagon? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 03:50:36PM -0400, Ken Waller wrote: > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message - From: "John Sessoms" > > Subject: RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten > > > >On Behalf Of Larry Colen > > > >>I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level > >>of experience or knowledge > >>has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. > >>Look at how long sports cars > >>have been available with automatic transmissions, even before > >>the modern ones that > >>arguably can out perform human shifting. > > > >I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in > >shifting, it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to > >drive as my manual. > > > >Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an > >auto. However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission > >takes some of the engine's output for its own operation, and that > >translates into decreased MPG. > > I'm not sure that (mileage improvement) would hold true over the new > dual clutch gearboxes on the same engines. It demonstrably does not. In fact modern dual-clutch automatics return better mileage than manual gearboxes, because a computer is *far* better at dynamically adjusting the shift points to return requested performance at optimal fuel efficiency than humans are. Even the best drivers on the planet - race car drivers who get paid millions of dollars a year for their talents - can not outperform automatic gearboxes. The only reason some series still retain their manual gearboxes is because the rules have been modified to require human input on the gearshift (although even there the actual shift is often still done by a powered mechanism, not by human muscle). Admittedly the best automated equipment also has costs that would keep it out of cars being built with any regard to price. But at lower "enthusiast" levels the line between power-driven sequential manual gearboxes (such as those in a Ferrari, or a BMW "M"-series, or whatever your favourite performance car might happen to be) and a multi-mode dual-clutch "automatic" is more one of terminology than of substance. As for "fun" - it's just as much fun to flick the paddles on my Z4 steering wheel as it was to stir the gearbox on my Mustang, and it's a whole lot nicer to be able to keep both hands on the wheel while downshifting in the middle of a sharp turn on CA route 9 ... And that's with the basic SMG - not a patch on the gearboxes that BMW fit on their M-series cars. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
From: "Ken Waller" From: "John Sessoms" Subject: RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten > On Behalf Of Larry Colen > >> I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of >> experience or knowledge >> has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how >> long sports cars >> have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern >> ones that >> arguably can out perform human shifting. > > I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in shifting, > it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my manual. > > Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an auto. > However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the > engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased > MPG. I'm not sure that (mileage improvement) would hold true over the new dual clutch gearboxes on the same engines. I don't think a dual clutch automatic gearbox was an available option on the 2005 Focus Wagon. I'm sure there's all sorts of wonderful exotic automotive technology out there. At what cost? I'm talking about my experience with an automobile I can pay for ... and of the options available on *that* car, the *available* manual transmission made more economic sense for the way I drive. Just for the sake of argument, what vehicle might have that "dual clutch gearbox" that would fit on my 136-hp 2.0L I-4 and give me better MPG than my existing 5 speed ... just in case I might (hypothetically, of course) want to put in an order with my local Midnight Auto Supply? If I've got to pine away all broken-hearted and forlorn over something I can't afford, why shouldn't it be something I actually want; like a 645D? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 06:22:48PM -0400, John Sessoms wrote: > From: "Ken Waller" > > >From: "John Sessoms" > >Subject: RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten > > > > > >>> On Behalf Of Larry Colen > >>> > >>>>> I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of > >>>>> experience or knowledge > >>>>> has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at > >>>>> how > >>>>> long sports cars > >>>>> have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern > >>>>> ones that > >>>>> arguably can out perform human shifting. > >>> > >>> I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in shifting, > >>> it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my manual. > >>> > >>> Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an auto. > >>> However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the > >>> engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased > >>> MPG. > >I'm not sure that (mileage improvement) would hold true over the new dual > >clutch gearboxes on the same engines. > > I don't think a dual clutch automatic gearbox was an available > option on the 2005 Focus Wagon. I'm sure there's all sorts of > wonderful exotic automotive technology out there. At what cost? > > I'm talking about my experience with an automobile I can pay for ... > and of the options available on *that* car, the *available* manual > transmission made more economic sense for the way I drive. If you were talking about one car - the 2005 Ford Focus - then you shouldn't have made a generalised dismissive statement about automatics always having decreased MPG. The main reason your manual gearbox in that 2005 Focus gets improved MPG over the automatic is because the manual is a 5-speed, while the automatic is a 4-speed. And even there the difference only really shows up in the highway mileage. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
From: John Francis If you were talking about one car - the 2005 Ford Focus - then you shouldn't have made a generalised dismissive statement about automatics always having decreased MPG. Actually, I didn't. I originally responded to Larry that I didn't care if an automatic could "out perform human shifting", I still prefer the manual. I was told I was *wrong*, as if anyone but me is entitled to decide what I should want. But, I take your point. What vehicle selling for less than $10k on the used car market in the US comes equipped with a double clutch automatic gearbox that gives higher MPG than the comparably equipped manual transmission model? What kind of MPG does it get? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 9:06 PM, John Sessoms wrote: > I was told I was *wrong*, as if anyone but me is entitled to decide what I > should want. You were told you were wrong, because you said: "However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased MPG." That's not a statement of your preferences, nor did you restrict the above statement to $10k cars with torque-converter automatics. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
On Apr 20, 2011, at 9:06 PM, John Sessoms wrote: > From: John Francis > >> If you were talking about one car - the 2005 Ford Focus - then you shouldn't >> have made a generalised dismissive statement about automatics always having >> decreased MPG. >> > > Actually, I didn't. > > I originally responded to Larry that I didn't care if an automatic could "out > perform human shifting", I still prefer the manual. > > I was told I was *wrong*, as if anyone but me is entitled to decide what I > should want. > > But, I take your point. > > What vehicle selling for less than $10k on the used car market in the US > comes equipped with a double clutch automatic gearbox that gives higher MPG > than the comparably equipped manual transmission model? > > What kind of MPG does it get? I recall that the automatic trans Ford Fusion of about four or five years ago outperformed the manual trans model on fuel economy. (I was writing their brochures at the time, so it's burned into my memory.) And that was with a standard five speed automatic, no double clutch, although it had a modern lockup ocnverter. But it was primarily just a ratio and shift point advantage that made it better. I believe it was 29 mpg highway. Not that great by today's standards, but food for a midsize car at the time. Paul > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "John Sessoms" Subject: Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten From: Larry Colen On Apr 20, 2011, at 10:25 AM, John Sessoms wrote: On Behalf Of Larry Colen I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of experience or knowledge has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look at how long sports cars have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the modern ones that arguably can out perform human shifting. I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in shifting, it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my manual. Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an auto. However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of the engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into decreased MPG. The modern dual-clutch transmissions don't suffer from that problem, they do weigh a bit more, and are more expensive than manual transmissions, but they can shift in a small fraction of the time, and can also run in manual mode. When the overdrive on my MGB worked (since replaced with a ford 5-speed), I learned an appreciation of shifting without taking my hands off the wheel. Interestingly, despite the propensity of auto enthusiasts to prefer manual transmissions, over the past 20 years of teaching performance driving at racetracks, I've had a very small percentage of students that were actually proficient at shifting. I suspect that something similar is true of photographic skills. I'm sure that it would be very enlightening for me to spend some time with someone who really knows how to use a camera. Whether I'm any good at it or not, the manual transmission is still more fun for me to drive. Same here, its all about control. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "John Francis" Subject: Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 03:50:36PM -0400, Ken Waller wrote: Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "John Sessoms" Subject: RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten >On Behalf Of Larry Colen > >>I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level >>of experience or knowledge >>has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. >>Look at how long sports cars >>have been available with automatic transmissions, even before >>the modern ones that >>arguably can out perform human shifting. > >I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in >shifting, it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to >drive as my manual. > >Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an >auto. However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission >takes some of the engine's output for its own operation, and that >translates into decreased MPG. I'm not sure that (mileage improvement) would hold true over the new dual clutch gearboxes on the same engines. It demonstrably does not. In fact modern dual-clutch automatics return better mileage than manual gearboxes, because a computer is *far* better at dynamically adjusting the shift points to return requested performance at optimal fuel efficiency than humans are. Probably one of the reasons it's available in the new Ford Focus - I first for that class of car. Even the best drivers on the planet - race car drivers who get paid millions of dollars a year for their talents - can not outperform automatic gearboxes. The only reason some series still retain their manual gearboxes is because the rules have been modified to require human input on the gearshift (although even there the actual shift is often still done by a powered mechanism, not by human muscle). Admittedly the best automated equipment also has costs that would keep it out of cars being built with any regard to price. But at lower "enthusiast" levels the line between power-driven sequential manual gearboxes (such as those in a Ferrari, or a BMW "M"-series, or whatever your favourite performance car might happen to be) and a multi-mode dual-clutch "automatic" is more one of terminology than of substance. As for "fun" - it's just as much fun to flick the paddles on my Z4 steering wheel as it was to stir the gearbox on my Mustang, and it's a whole lot nicer to be able to keep both hands on the wheel while downshifting in the middle of a sharp turn on CA route 9 ... And that's with the basic SMG - not a patch on the gearboxes that BMW fit on their M-series cars. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
Kenneth Waller
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller
- Original Message -
From: "John Sessoms"
Subject: Re: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
From: "Ken Waller"
From: "John Sessoms"
Subject: RE: Green mode, a detail I'd forgotten
> On Behalf Of Larry Colen
>
>> I'm willing to bet that people like that even buy Leicas. Level of
>> experience or knowledge
>> has nothing to do with how much someone spends on something. Look
>> at how
>> long sports cars
>> have been available with automatic transmissions, even before the
>> modern
>> ones that
>> arguably can out perform human shifting.
>
> I don't care if the automatic transmission can out perform me in
> shifting,
> it doesn't have as much fun, and is not as much fun to drive as my
> manual.
>
> Plus, I regularly get better MPG performance than I would with an
> auto.
> However you slice or dice it, an automatic transmission takes some of
> the
> engine's output for its own operation, and that translates into
> decreased
> MPG.
I'm not sure that (mileage improvement) would hold true over the new dual
clutch gearboxes on the same engines.
I don't think a dual clutch automatic gearbox was an available option on
the 2005 Focus Wagon. I'm sure there's all sorts of wonderful exotic
automotive technology out there. At what cost?
No, it wasn't, but is available on the new Focus. I believe its the only
'automatic' available. A six speed manual is also available.
I'm talking about my experience with an automobile I can pay for ... and
of the options available on *that* car, the *available* manual
transmission made more economic sense for the way I drive.
See above.
Just for the sake of argument, what vehicle might have that "dual clutch
gearbox" that would fit on my 136-hp 2.0L I-4 and give me better MPG than
my existing 5 speed ... just in case I might (hypothetically, of course)
want to put in an order with my local Midnight Auto Supply?
See above & good luck with the conversion {:-)
If I've got to pine away all broken-hearted and forlorn over something I
can't afford, why shouldn't it be something I actually want; like a 645D?
--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
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to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow
the directions.
