subject:"Way, way OT \- crowds and events"

On 9/11/10, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed:

There are two reasons people run marathons:
To compete (even against oneself and one's previous best time)
To pretend to compete (to be able to tell friends I ran a marathon!)

You forgot the third reason:

To think about it for one nanosecond before coffee and doughnuts.

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On 9/11/10, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:

Cotty does synchronized swimming?
I can't imagine him in one of those cute little caps!

Bob, if you're not careful I will come over there and put a bat up your
nightdress.

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-10 Thread John Francis

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 05:42:05PM +, Cotty wrote:
 On 9/11/10, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:
 
 Cotty does synchronized swimming?
 I can't imagine him in one of those cute little caps!
 
 Bob, if you're not careful I will come over there and put a bat up your
 nightdress.

Horseshoe or cricket?


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On 10/11/10, John Francis, discombobulated, unleashed:

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 05:42:05PM +, Cotty wrote:
 On 9/11/10, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:

 Cotty does synchronized swimming?
 I can't imagine him in one of those cute little caps!

 Bob, if you're not careful I will come over there and put a bat up your
 nightdress.

Horseshoe or cricket?

Vampire!

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-10 Thread Mark Roberts

John Francis wrote:

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 05:42:05PM +, Cotty wrote:
 On 9/11/10, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:
 
 Cotty does synchronized swimming?
 I can't imagine him in one of those cute little caps!
 
 Bob, if you're not careful I will come over there and put a bat up your
 nightdress.

Horseshoe or cricket?

Vampire.

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-10 Thread Mark Roberts

Cotty wrote:

On 10/11/10, John Francis, discombobulated, unleashed:

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 05:42:05PM +, Cotty wrote:
 On 9/11/10, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:

 Cotty does synchronized swimming?
 I can't imagine him in one of those cute little caps!

 Bob, if you're not careful I will come over there and put a bat up your
 nightdress.

Horseshoe or cricket?

Vampire!

Damn, I wasn't fast enough!


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-10 Thread frank theriault

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:

 Because without the sanctioning body anyone could just say I ran a
 marathon in 2:10 yesterday

Peh!  I just ran one in 2:08 last week...

;-)

cheers,
frank



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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-10 Thread Steven Desjardins

I'm trying to make mine last.  I'm doing a little bit every day until
mid December.

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 2:00 PM, frank theriault
knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:

 Because without the sanctioning body anyone could just say I ran a
 marathon in 2:10 yesterday

 Peh!  I just ran one in 2:08 last week...

 ;-)

 cheers,
 frank



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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On 10/11/10, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed:

Damn, I wasn't fast enough!

Great minds ;-)

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-10 Thread P. J. Alling


Great?

On 11/10/2010 2:21 PM, Cotty wrote:

On 10/11/10, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed:


Damn, I wasn't fast enough!

Great minds ;-)

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-10 Thread Bob Sullivan

We wear Dr Dentons here...  :-)

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Cotty cotty...@mac.com wrote:
 On 9/11/10, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:

Cotty does synchronized swimming?
I can't imagine him in one of those cute little caps!

 Bob, if you're not careful I will come over there and put a bat up your
 nightdress.

 --


 Cheers,
  Cotty


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RE: Way, way OT - crowds and events

 That could be it.  But why do we need some sanctioning body to recognize
it?
 There are running clubs, bicycle clubs, swimming clubs, etc. that are
 populated by people who will never compete, but they'll do it for the
 camaraderie or the exercise or whatever.  Then, some of them will train
 together so they can all go run some event with a gazillion other people.
 Which leads me to believe that in many people with lemmingitis, the
 affiliation isn't the motivator.  It's the recognition by the sanctioning
body.
 Again, why?

I'd suggest that it provides a focus for the training - a reason to be fit.
Although I don't think I'm every likely to run a marathon, I do jog and
cycle, and I'm in fairly good shape. Being fit for its own sake is fine, but
it also helps to have something else to be fit for and in my case playing
squash is part of that. Years ago I used to go to the gym several times a
week, but after the initial enthusiasm wears off it becomes really, really
dull as an end in itself.

Of course, there are also people who love to be part of a crowd which shares
a motivation, and that I suspect is what motivates the charity runners who
only do minimal training. It's similar to what inspires people to go to
football matches, demonstrations, lynchings and Nuremberg rallies. I'm
personally not one for the madness of crowds, but I can understand something
of what people get from it when I cycle to work in the mornings and find
myself in a fast-moving peloton weaving through the traffic. Rather like
Cotty and his synchronised swimming.

B




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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread David Mann

On Nov 9, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Scott Loveless wrote:

I've been thinking about crowds, or rather the reasons people want to
do things with other people. This stems from looking into events such
as marathons. (I actually have no interest in running a marathon, but
I'm going to use it as an example.) I'm curious as to what makes a
person want to do these things under the watchful eye of a sanctioning
body or event organizer.

I may as well throw in a couple of cents because this is an interesting
question and I don't claim to have all of the answers.

The reason I did my first couple of half marathons is because it was a
challenge. Yes I'd done the distance in training several times over, but it was
still a nice milestone to reach in an official capacity, and to come out with
the official time and all that stuff. The next two were done for the medals...
and to see if I could improve my time.

I doubt I'll ever win anything - a 1:30 half marathon is a dream, nevermind
1:10 - so I go to push myself and enjoy doing it (strange but true). I'll
always push harder in a race because I allow myself time to prepare and time to
recover. Otherwise I'd just get annoyed that I have to rest and can't go out
training.

It's also nice to have supporters coming along to watch, that's something you
don't get otherwise and it does give you a real lift. And you'd be surprised
how fast you can sprint after all that distance when you get into the finishing
chute.

Also, I've noticed that there are people who
will prepare for such events for the sole purpose of participating in
the event. In other words, if the organized event, such as a
marathon, didn't exist then there is a distinct possibility that the
participants wouldn't have bothered training to run such a distance.

I believe you're correct here, and yes it does sound a bit circular. We only
do it because it's there, but it's only there because we'll do it. Only a few
people at any race are there to win, but the event is financially dependent on
the rest of us paying our entry fees and turning up.

At the moment I'm not training for any specific event but I'm still getting up
at 5:30 on work days to get some regular exercise in. I do this because I
enjoy the training, and that's one of the secrets of sticking to it. I don't
have to do it, I want to do it. And when I do decide on something specific to
aim for, I'll have some base fitness to work from. But that doesn't fit into
what you said, and I accept that I have a different approach to most.

At all levels events take a LOT of commitment just to make the start line, and
in that way the competitors are all heroes of mine. I received an article
through my news feed the other day about a lady who is doing triathlon despite
a very busy lifestyle and having some fairly serious medical conditions, and
she's loving it:

http://www.multisport.net.nz/multisport-news/multisport-news/1228-2010-11-05-kerris-browne-triathlon.html

Without the events and the publicity surrounding them, we wouldn't have stories
like this to inspire us to join in and have a go.

I think a major motivating factor for most people is the sense of achievement
they get from setting a goal and reaching it, and once you start setting goals
it tends to become a habit and influence the rest of your life. It can make
big improvements to your self-confidence when you realise you CAN do it.

As you go on the goals get bigger. Your first 10km race is a big milestone.
Then you do it, and you eventually set a new goal to do a half marathon. Then
comes the full marathon, and that can grow into even bigger events. But at
each stage the training needs increase so you do need to be realistic about
what you can fit into your lifestyle.

And if you fail? You've found your limit. Your current limit, that is. Your
future limit will be different because you're going to work on improving and
have another go later. And it'll feel even better when you do it. The
bitterness of failure makes the taste of success that much sweeter.

I think I'm getting a bit carried away here but I'm quite enthusiastic about
this.

These things seem obvious on the surface, but why wouldn't a person
who is driven to prepare and participate in such events just do it
anyway, even without the organization or other runners?

I'd put it down to the sense of occasion and the goal surrounding it. Running
a marathon alone has to be pretty boring. Also I think that what I wrote above
is an indication that most people wouldn't have that level of drive otherwise.

Bear in mind that it's logistically quite difficult to run a marathon by
yourself, you certainly wouldn't want to carry your drinks with you. It's
enough of a pain for a half marathon. So the event itself helps to make the
run possible.

I don't like crowds at all. The thought of spending money and dealing
with the logistics of getting to and participating in a

Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread eckinator

Scott, are you on your way to reconsideration perhaps?

2010/11/9 Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com:
 O hai!  This is way off topic and concerns the reasons people feel
 compelled to do things in a group.  The PDML is such an eclectic
 group, though, I figured someone would know something about it.  Worst
 case scenario - half of you tell me to shut up and the other half gets
 into a flame war.  g

 I've been thinking about crowds, or rather the reasons people want to
 do things with other people.  This stems from looking into events such
 as marathons.  (I actually have no interest in running a marathon, but
 I'm going to use it as an example.)  I'm curious as to what makes a
 person want to do these things under the watchful eye of a sanctioning
 body or event organizer.  Also, I've noticed that there are people who
 will prepare for such events for the sole purpose of participating in
 the event.  In other words, if the organized event, such as a
 marathon, didn't exist then there is a distinct possibility that the
 participants wouldn't have bothered training to run such a distance.
 These things seem obvious on the surface, but why wouldn't a person
 who is driven to prepare and participate in such events just do it
 anyway, even without the organization or other runners?

 I don't like crowds at all.  The thought of spending money and dealing
 with the logistics of getting to and participating in a marathon, just
 so I can have a certificate and my name in a record book somewhere is
 completely foreign to me.  Another example - there's the Covered
 Bridge Metric Century in Lancaster County, PA.  It's a long,
 organized bicycle ride through some very scenic rolling hills.  As the
 name implies, the ride passes by or crosses several covered bridges.
 The cue sheet is published and anyone can download it.  I can go ride
 their metric century any time I want.  Yet, every year hundreds of
 cyclists will pay money, deal with traffic and parking, and wait in
 lines just to ride this route with a bunch of other tourists.  To me
 it sounds like a colossal headache.  But to quite a few other people
 it is apparently enjoyable.

 I initially started looking for explanations with search terms like
 crowd psychology, but that's something different.  So what I'm
 asking for is the psychological terminology that applies to this
 behavior.  I'd like to read more about it, but I'm unsure where to
 look.  Thanks!

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Scott Loveless wrote:

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Miserere miser...@gmail.com wrote:
 Some people are masochists, some are highly competitive alphas. A few are 
 both.

 Then there are sheep. And also lemmings.

 I've participated in organised mountain bike races. Sure, I could have
 ridden those course without the other participants at any other time,
 but I never pushed myself as hard as when I was racing. The pursuit
 of the breaking point is what I used to call it. I never did reach
 it, which might be for the best.

I think competition is different.  Many of the people who run marathon
races aren't there to compete.

There are two reasons people run marathons: 
To compete (even against oneself and one's previous best time)
To pretend to compete (to be able to tell friends I ran a marathon!)


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Boris,

The way I was taught about the 'Need for Affiliation' it was a social thing.
It is most important for these people to have friends and fit-in at work.
To have the rest of your co-workers give you affirmation.

Those driven by a 'Need for Achievement' want to get things done.
They are fulfilled by accomplishments in a work environment.

Those driven by a 'Need for Power' are your politicians and clergy.
Their greatest satisfaction comes from influencing and leading people
to do things the way they see them.

Achievement and Power people are my favorites at work, while
I don't know what to do with the Affiliation folks.

Regards, Bob S.

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/9/2010 4:39 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

 Boris,
 I think Affirmation and Affiliation with others are the same motivation.
 Regards,  Bob S.

 I don't think so, Bob. Affiliation is what one does towards the group - they
 make themselves the part of the group. The affirmation is the other way
 around, when the group pats in the back its members. I may have used not
 the most accurate words, but at least I just explained myself.

 Boris

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Scott Loveless wrote:

That could be it.  But why do we need some sanctioning body to
recognize it?

Because without the sanctioning body anyone could just say I ran a
marathon in 2:10 yesterday


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Doug Franklin wrote:

On 2010-11-08 22:15, Scott Loveless wrote:

 I initially started looking for explanations with search terms like
 crowd psychology, but that's something different.  So what I'm
 asking for is the psychological terminology that applies to this
 behavior.  I'd like to read more about it, but I'm unsure where to
 look.  Thanks!

Lemmingitis? :-)

No no, that's a medical condition: Severe inflammation of the lemming.


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Scott Loveless wrote:

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 Scott Loveless wrote:

That could be it.  But why do we need some sanctioning body to
recognize it?

 Because without the sanctioning body anyone could just say I ran a
 marathon in 2:10 yesterday

That seems so f'ing obvious, yet no one has brought it up yet.  I
think.  Unless I missed it.  At this point I feel like a 7-year-old
who keeps asking why?, but I think that moves out of the crowd thing
and into a different area.  Please accept my apologies for not making
any sense.  The terminology eludes me.  The real question is probably
something like why do we need recognition for anything at all?  If
Someone did go run a marathon and said so, but then you didn't believe
him, why would he care?  And why is there is a need to point at the
event records for proof?

It's simply a motivator I can't relate to, and I'm trying to
understand it.  Dave Mann's message go a long way to explaining it.
Thanks everyone!

So what you're really asking is why do people need to perform actions
that contribute to their sense of self-esteem?


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread David J Brooks

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com wrote:
 O hai!  This is way off topic and concerns the reasons people feel
 compelled to do things in a group.  The PDML is such an eclectic
 group, though, I figured someone would know something about it.  Worst
 case scenario - half of you tell me to shut up and the other half gets
 into a flame war.  g

 I've been thinking about crowds, or rather the reasons people want to
 do things with other people.

 --
 Scott Loveless
 http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/

I can tolerate small crowds, but not large ones. Makes me feel very
uncomfortable. Not claustraphopic but close.
I avoid malls like the plague. Come the Xmas season, i refuse to go to one.

Dave
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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Hmmm, I wasn't taught. I was taught about algorithm complexity and 
direct acyclic graphs, but not need for affiliation... Sorry. We may 
have to work out the common platform... err... language first.


On 11/9/2010 5:16 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

The way I was taught about the 'Need for Affiliation' it was a social thing.
It is most important for these people to have friends and fit-in at work.
To have the rest of your co-workers give you affirmation.


As long as it does not becomes ugly when these people come to work only 
to socialize or affiliate with their peers doing effectively nothing.



Those driven by a 'Need for Achievement' want to get things done.
They are fulfilled by accomplishments in a work environment.


As long as it does not goes all the way to the extreme whereas you ask a 
fellow programmer to help you and they say that they cannot waste their 
precious times on you. I underline here the wording.



Those driven by a 'Need for Power' are your politicians and clergy.
Their greatest satisfaction comes from influencing and leading people
to do things the way they see them.


As long as it does not goes all the way to the extreme whereas these 
people do not listen to anyone else thinking that given their power they 
are all knowledgeable and omnipotent.



Achievement and Power people are my favorites at work, while
I don't know what to do with the Affiliation folks.


I think that many Dilberts out there are affiliation people. I gather 
you did not work too much with engineers in your career...


Boris

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread mark

Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 So what you're really asking is why do people need to perform actions
 that contribute to their sense of self-esteem?

Not necessarily.  I'm more interested in why people decide to do those
things in large, organized groups.  What makes the official
recognition so important to the people who participate, as opposed to
just going out and doing it on their own?

The esteem that comes from an official acknowledgement if the
accomplishment.

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 Scott Loveless wrote:

That could be it.  But why do we need some sanctioning body to
recognize it?

 Because without the sanctioning body anyone could just say I ran a
 marathon in 2:10 yesterday

That seems so f'ing obvious, yet no one has brought it up yet.  I
think.  Unless I missed it.  At this point I feel like a 7-year-old
who keeps asking why?, but I think that moves out of the crowd thing
and into a different area.  Please accept my apologies for not making
any sense.  The terminology eludes me.  The real question is probably
something like why do we need recognition for anything at all?  If
Someone did go run a marathon and said so, but then you didn't believe
him, why would he care?  And why is there is a need to point at the
event records for proof?

It's simply a motivator I can't relate to, and I'm trying to
understand it.  Dave Mann's message go a long way to explaining it.
Thanks everyone!

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http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 10:36 AM,  m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 So what you're really asking is why do people need to perform actions
 that contribute to their sense of self-esteem?

Not necessarily.  I'm more interested in why people decide to do those
things in large, organized groups.  What makes the official
recognition so important to the people who participate, as opposed to
just going out and doing it on their own?

 The esteem that comes from an official acknowledgement if the
 accomplishment.

I'll buy that.  Thanks, Mark.

-- 
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http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Boris,
I started my career working with engineers, but moved away from it.
I always connected best with quantitative, analytical people.
Achievement people can get satisfaction from the team accomplishing the goal.
Power people can be sneaky, conniving bastards trying to manipulate
the team toward goals.
(No prejudice here...)
Affiliation folks are touchy/feely and on coffee break.
(No prejudice again...)
Regards,  Bob S.

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 9:24 AM, Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hmmm, I wasn't taught. I was taught about algorithm complexity and direct
 acyclic graphs, but not need for affiliation... Sorry. We may have to work
 out the common platform... err... language first.

 On 11/9/2010 5:16 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

 The way I was taught about the 'Need for Affiliation' it was a social
 thing.
 It is most important for these people to have friends and fit-in at work.
 To have the rest of your co-workers give you affirmation.

 As long as it does not becomes ugly when these people come to work only to
 socialize or affiliate with their peers doing effectively nothing.

 Those driven by a 'Need for Achievement' want to get things done.
 They are fulfilled by accomplishments in a work environment.

 As long as it does not goes all the way to the extreme whereas you ask a
 fellow programmer to help you and they say that they cannot waste their
 precious times on you. I underline here the wording.

 Those driven by a 'Need for Power' are your politicians and clergy.
 Their greatest satisfaction comes from influencing and leading people
 to do things the way they see them.

 As long as it does not goes all the way to the extreme whereas these people
 do not listen to anyone else thinking that given their power they are all
 knowledgeable and omnipotent.

 Achievement and Power people are my favorites at work, while
 I don't know what to do with the Affiliation folks.

 I think that many Dilberts out there are affiliation people. I gather you
 did not work too much with engineers in your career...

 Boris

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread P. J. Alling


I prefer disorganized groups, that's why I'm here.

On 11/9/2010 10:02 AM, Scott Loveless wrote:

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Mark Robertsm...@robertstech.com  wrote:

So what you're really asking is why do people need to perform actions
that contribute to their sense of self-esteem?

Not necessarily.  I'm more interested in why people decide to do those
things in large, organized groups.  What makes the official
recognition so important to the people who participate, as opposed to
just going out and doing it on their own?




--
His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral 
bankruptcy.
 -Woody Allen


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread Ken Waller


I prefer disorganized groups, that's why I'm here.


YO - Mark !

Kenneth Waller
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller

- Original Message - 
From: P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com


Subject: Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events



I prefer disorganized groups, that's why I'm here.

On 11/9/2010 10:02 AM, Scott Loveless wrote:
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Mark Robertsm...@robertstech.com 
wrote:

So what you're really asking is why do people need to perform actions
that contribute to their sense of self-esteem?

Not necessarily.  I'm more interested in why people decide to do those
things in large, organized groups.  What makes the official
recognition so important to the people who participate, as opposed to
just going out and doing it on their own?



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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread P. J. Alling

Church services, lodge meetings, funerals, elections, 
fraternity/sorority hazings, swearing in ceremonies, graduations, sure 
we have...


On 11/9/2010 11:20 AM, John Sessoms wrote:
Don't think that because we've outgrown the tribe, we've outgrown the 
need for tribal rituals.


They're a hold-over whose purpose may no longer be clear; vestigial 
organs of a human society ... like the vermiform appendix.


From: Scott Loveless

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:49 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com 
wrote:

 Tribal Bonding Rituals


That's not it.  The New York marathon isn't a tribe.  It's a small
city moving through a large city.  If you had, say, a group of New
Balance 990 enthusiasts who got together to run long distances in
their chosen shoe, that would be a tribe.  Much like PDMLers at GFM,
or at any other PDML gathering for that matter.






--
His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral 
bankruptcy.
 -Woody Allen


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread Steven Desjardins

Don't forget angry mobs. (my favorite)

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 11:29 AM, P. J. Alling
webstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote:
 Church services, lodge meetings, funerals, elections, fraternity/sorority
 hazings, swearing in ceremonies, graduations, sure we have...

 On 11/9/2010 11:20 AM, John Sessoms wrote:

 Don't think that because we've outgrown the tribe, we've outgrown the need
 for tribal rituals.

 They're a hold-over whose purpose may no longer be clear; vestigial organs
 of a human society ... like the vermiform appendix.

 From: Scott Loveless

 On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:49 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com
 wrote:

  Tribal Bonding Rituals

 That's not it.  The New York marathon isn't a tribe.  It's a small
 city moving through a large city.  If you had, say, a group of New
 Balance 990 enthusiasts who got together to run long distances in
 their chosen shoe, that would be a tribe.  Much like PDMLers at GFM,
 or at any other PDML gathering for that matter.




 --
 His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed
 moral bankruptcy.
     -Woody Allen


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread John Sessoms


From: Mark Roberts


Scott Loveless wrote:



That could be it.  But why do we need some sanctioning body to
recognize it?



Because without the sanctioning body anyone could just say I ran a
marathon in 2:10 yesterday



Hmmm? That's about the right time for me ... although, technically, in 
my case it would be I finished a marathon in 2:10 yesterday


Yeah, I should be able to make it in 2 days, 10 hours.  ;-D

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread John Francis

On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 10:02:04AM -0500, Scott Loveless wrote:
 
 Not necessarily.  I'm more interested in why people decide to do those
 things in large, organized groups.  What makes the official
 recognition so important to the people who participate, as opposed to
 just going out and doing it on their own?

Why put your pictures (or your blog) up where other people can see them?
Why post your opinions to internet discussion groups or mailing lists?


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread Christian Skofteland

On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 11:54:02PM -0500, Scott Loveless wrote:
 On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Need for Achievement.  Absolutely!  'I can do this!'  Set goals then
  achieve them.
 
 Right.  But why is an organized event with a gazillion other people
 the motivator?
 
  Need for Affiliation.  Look at all the similar people I meet and can
  become affiliated with.
 
 That could be it.  But why do we need some sanctioning body to
 recognize it?  There are running clubs, bicycle clubs, swimming clubs,
 etc. that are populated by people who will never compete, but they'll
 do it for the camaraderie or the exercise or whatever.  Then, some of
 them will train together so they can all go run some event with a
 gazillion other people.  Which leads me to believe that in many people
 with lemmingitis, the affiliation isn't the motivator.  It's the
 recognition by the sanctioning body.  Again, why?
 

Proof.  Proof that i did it.  Proof that you didn't.  Look at me!  I have a 
medal and you don't!  I'm great and you are not.  

Plus they love telling war stories about their training.  Only two weeks to go 
before my marathon.  Oh, i'm so sore because, you know, i'm training for a 
marathon.  Ouch, i tweaked my knee training for a marathon.  The marathon was 
sooo hard, but i finished in less time than my goal!  blah blah blah.


Christian
-
http://404notfound.blogspot.com
http://birdofthemoment.blogspot.com


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread Steven Desjardins

Like the way we're all ganging up on you now.  ;-p

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 10:36 AM,  m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 So what you're really asking is why do people need to perform actions
 that contribute to their sense of self-esteem?

Not necessarily.  I'm more interested in why people decide to do those
things in large, organized groups.  What makes the official
recognition so important to the people who participate, as opposed to
just going out and doing it on their own?

 The esteem that comes from an official acknowledgement if the
 accomplishment.

 I'll buy that.  Thanks, Mark.

 --
 Scott (I have the scars to prove it!) Loveless
 http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
     __o
   _'\,_
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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread Steven Desjardins

Human beings are social animals and the sense of community is a source
of encouragement for many.  Of course, this is only true in general
and may not apply to everyone, although in this case I think you might
be the outlier.  No offense, I'm a loner as well.

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/9/2010 5:41 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

 Boris,
 I started my career working with engineers, but moved away from it.
 I always connected best with quantitative, analytical people.
 Achievement people can get satisfaction from the team accomplishing the
 goal.
 Power people can be sneaky, conniving bastards trying to manipulate
 the team toward goals.
 (No prejudice here...)
 Affiliation folks are touchy/feely and on coffee break.
 (No prejudice again...)
 Regards,  Bob S.

 Oh, I see. I should have asked you about your with engineers career when we
 met in Chicago. It might have proved interesting conversation.

 I don't drink coffee (most of the time, unless I have to stay long hours)
 but I am at least partly affiliation person. Hoping here that you don't send
 me to the indefinite coffee break now :-).

 Boris

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RE: Way, way OT - crowds and events

 Human beings are social animals and the sense of community is a source of
 encouragement for many.  Of course, this is only true in general and may
not
 apply to everyone, although in this case I think you might be the outlier.
No
 offense, I'm a loner as well.
 

we're a group of loners.


B


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RE: Way, way OT - crowds and events

  Boris,
  I think Affirmation and Affiliation with others are the same motivation.
  Regards,  Bob S.
 
 I don't think so, Bob. Affiliation is what one does towards the group -
they
 make themselves the part of the group. The affirmation is the other way
 around, when the group pats in the back its members. I may have used not
 the most accurate words, but at least I just explained myself.

it's all explained, if you believe it, by Maslows Hierarchy of Needs. The
marathon running thing would be in with Love/Belonging or possibly with
Esteem. Esteem is described as the need for 'self-esteem, confidence,
respect of others, ...'. Love/Belonging is normally described as the need
for 'Friendship, family, sexual intimacy'. Except in West Virginia,
obviously, where it's described as 'family sexual intimacy'.

B


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote:
 Human beings are social animals and the sense of community is a source of
 encouragement for many.  Of course, this is only true in general and may
 not
 apply to everyone, although in this case I think you might be the outlier.
 No
 offense, I'm a loner as well.


 we're a group of loners.

Speak for yourself, buddy.

-- 
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http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
    __o
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RE: Way, way OT - crowds and events

 Bob W,
 Cotty does synchronized swimming?
 I can't imagine him in one of those cute little caps!
 Regards,  Bob S.
 

Really? The thought keeps me awake at night.

 On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 2:16 AM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote:
  That could be it.  But why do we need some sanctioning body to
  recognize
  it?
  There are running clubs, bicycle clubs, swimming clubs, etc. that are
  populated by people who will never compete, but they'll do it for the
  camaraderie or the exercise or whatever.  Then, some of them will
  train together so they can all go run some event with a gazillion other
 people.
  Which leads me to believe that in many people with lemmingitis, the
  affiliation isn't the motivator.  It's the recognition by the
  sanctioning
  body.
  Again, why?
 
  I'd suggest that it provides a focus for the training - a reason to be
fit.
  Although I don't think I'm every likely to run a marathon, I do jog
  and cycle, and I'm in fairly good shape. Being fit for its own sake is
  fine, but it also helps to have something else to be fit for and in my
  case playing squash is part of that. Years ago I used to go to the gym
  several times a week, but after the initial enthusiasm wears off it
  becomes really, really dull as an end in itself.
 
  Of course, there are also people who love to be part of a crowd which
  shares a motivation, and that I suspect is what motivates the charity
  runners who only do minimal training. It's similar to what inspires
  people to go to football matches, demonstrations, lynchings and
  Nuremberg rallies. I'm personally not one for the madness of crowds,
  but I can understand something of what people get from it when I cycle
  to work in the mornings and find myself in a fast-moving peloton
  weaving through the traffic. Rather like Cotty and his synchronised
 swimming.
 
  B
 
 
 
 
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RE: Way, way OT - crowds and events

 
 (I need to remember this crap I'm spouting, it could be useful in job
 interviews.)

you should write it down.

B


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread John Sessoms

Don't think that because we've outgrown the tribe, we've outgrown the 
need for tribal rituals.


They're a hold-over whose purpose may no longer be clear; vestigial 
organs of a human society ... like the vermiform appendix.


From: Scott Loveless


On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:49 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote:

 Tribal Bonding Rituals


That's not it.  The New York marathon isn't a tribe.  It's a small
city moving through a large city.  If you had, say, a group of New
Balance 990 enthusiasts who got together to run long distances in
their chosen shoe, that would be a tribe.  Much like PDMLers at GFM,
or at any other PDML gathering for that matter.



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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Boris,
I think Affirmation and Affiliation with others are the same motivation.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 12:01 AM, Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com wrote:
 Bob, I think you're forgetting one more need.

 Need for peer Affirmation. Look, I have changed my mind, I am buying K-5
 after all, kind of sentiment.

 Boris

 On 11/9/2010 6:30 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

 Basic human psychology/motivations...
 Need for Power.  Probably doesn't play to much in these situations.
 Need for Achievement.  Absolutely!  'I can do this!'  Set goals then
 achieve them.
 Need for Affiliation.  Look at all the similar people I meet and can
 become affiliated with.

 Scott, I think it's pretty basic human motivation stuff here.  Regards,
  Bob S.

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread eckinator

2010/11/9 John Francis jo...@panix.com:

 Why put your pictures (or your blog) up where other people can see them?
 Why post your opinions to internet discussion groups or mailing lists?

generativity or the desire for it could be one reason
ecke

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RE: Way, way OT - crowds and events

  Human beings are social animals and the sense of community is a
  source of encouragement for many.  Of course, this is only true in
  general and may
  not
  apply to everyone, although in this case I think you might be the
outlier.
  No
  offense, I'm a loner as well.
 
 
  we're a group of loners.
 
 Speak for yourself, buddy.
 

I'm a group of loners

B


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events


On 11/9/2010 5:41 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

Boris,
I started my career working with engineers, but moved away from it.
I always connected best with quantitative, analytical people.
Achievement people can get satisfaction from the team accomplishing the goal.
Power people can be sneaky, conniving bastards trying to manipulate
the team toward goals.
(No prejudice here...)
Affiliation folks are touchy/feely and on coffee break.
(No prejudice again...)
Regards,  Bob S.


Oh, I see. I should have asked you about your with engineers career when 
we met in Chicago. It might have proved interesting conversation.


I don't drink coffee (most of the time, unless I have to stay long 
hours) but I am at least partly affiliation person. Hoping here that you 
don't send me to the indefinite coffee break now :-).


Boris

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Bob W,
Cotty does synchronized swimming?
I can't imagine him in one of those cute little caps!
Regards,  Bob S.

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 2:16 AM, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote:
 That could be it.  But why do we need some sanctioning body to recognize
 it?
 There are running clubs, bicycle clubs, swimming clubs, etc. that are
 populated by people who will never compete, but they'll do it for the
 camaraderie or the exercise or whatever.  Then, some of them will train
 together so they can all go run some event with a gazillion other people.
 Which leads me to believe that in many people with lemmingitis, the
 affiliation isn't the motivator.  It's the recognition by the sanctioning
 body.
 Again, why?

 I'd suggest that it provides a focus for the training - a reason to be fit.
 Although I don't think I'm every likely to run a marathon, I do jog and
 cycle, and I'm in fairly good shape. Being fit for its own sake is fine, but
 it also helps to have something else to be fit for and in my case playing
 squash is part of that. Years ago I used to go to the gym several times a
 week, but after the initial enthusiasm wears off it becomes really, really
 dull as an end in itself.

 Of course, there are also people who love to be part of a crowd which shares
 a motivation, and that I suspect is what motivates the charity runners who
 only do minimal training. It's similar to what inspires people to go to
 football matches, demonstrations, lynchings and Nuremberg rallies. I'm
 personally not one for the madness of crowds, but I can understand something
 of what people get from it when I cycle to work in the mornings and find
 myself in a fast-moving peloton weaving through the traffic. Rather like
 Cotty and his synchronised swimming.

 B




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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events


On 11/9/2010 4:39 PM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

Boris,
I think Affirmation and Affiliation with others are the same motivation.
Regards,  Bob S.


I don't think so, Bob. Affiliation is what one does towards the group - 
they make themselves the part of the group. The affirmation is the other 
way around, when the group pats in the back its members. I may have 
used not the most accurate words, but at least I just explained myself.


Boris

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
 So what you're really asking is why do people need to perform actions
 that contribute to their sense of self-esteem?

Not necessarily.  I'm more interested in why people decide to do those
things in large, organized groups.  What makes the official
recognition so important to the people who participate, as opposed to
just going out and doing it on their own?

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-09 Thread P. J. Alling


On 11/9/2010 5:04 PM, Bob W wrote:

Human beings are social animals and the sense of community is a
source of encouragement for many.  Of course, this is only true in
general and may

not

apply to everyone, although in this case I think you might be the

outlier.

No

offense, I'm a loner as well.


we're a group of loners.

Speak for yourself, buddy.


I'm a group of loners

B



Roses are red violets are blue, Bob's schizophrenic, and so is Bob...

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

Mark,
You are an accomplished runner, but a bit harsh with that 'pretend' comment.
I watched a young man, 6'2 and a little pudgy with low self-confidence change.
He trained and ran 3 or 4 marathons.
He lost a little weight but never became 'cross country runner' thin,
but he did gain a lot of confidence in himself.  He did it!
For most of us, just running a marathon would be a lofty goal.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 6:24 AM, Mark Roberts m...@robertstech.com wrote:
I think competition is different.  Many of the people who run marathon
races aren't there to compete.

 There are two reasons people run marathons:
 To compete (even against oneself and one's previous best time)
 To pretend to compete (to be able to tell friends I ran a marathon!)

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events


On 11/10/2010 12:04 AM, Bob W wrote:

I'm a group of loners

B


It is only appropriate then that from now on I shall address you in 
Your Groupness and respective and respectable Royal You.


B

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Way, way OT - crowds and events

O hai!  This is way off topic and concerns the reasons people feel
compelled to do things in a group.  The PDML is such an eclectic
group, though, I figured someone would know something about it.  Worst
case scenario - half of you tell me to shut up and the other half gets
into a flame war.  g

I've been thinking about crowds, or rather the reasons people want to
do things with other people.  This stems from looking into events such
as marathons.  (I actually have no interest in running a marathon, but
I'm going to use it as an example.)  I'm curious as to what makes a
person want to do these things under the watchful eye of a sanctioning
body or event organizer.  Also, I've noticed that there are people who
will prepare for such events for the sole purpose of participating in
the event.  In other words, if the organized event, such as a
marathon, didn't exist then there is a distinct possibility that the
participants wouldn't have bothered training to run such a distance.
These things seem obvious on the surface, but why wouldn't a person
who is driven to prepare and participate in such events just do it
anyway, even without the organization or other runners?

I don't like crowds at all.  The thought of spending money and dealing
with the logistics of getting to and participating in a marathon, just
so I can have a certificate and my name in a record book somewhere is
completely foreign to me.  Another example - there's the Covered
Bridge Metric Century in Lancaster County, PA.  It's a long,
organized bicycle ride through some very scenic rolling hills.  As the
name implies, the ride passes by or crosses several covered bridges.
The cue sheet is published and anyone can download it.  I can go ride
their metric century any time I want.  Yet, every year hundreds of
cyclists will pay money, deal with traffic and parking, and wait in
lines just to ride this route with a bunch of other tourists.  To me
it sounds like a colossal headache.  But to quite a few other people
it is apparently enjoyable.

I initially started looking for explanations with search terms like
crowd psychology, but that's something different.  So what I'm
asking for is the psychological terminology that applies to this
behavior.  I'd like to read more about it, but I'm unsure where to
look.  Thanks!

-- 
Scott Loveless
http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
    __o
  _'\,_
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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-08 Thread Subash

On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 22:15:37 -0500
Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com wrote:

 O hai!  This is way off topic and concerns the reasons people feel
 compelled to do things in a group.  The PDML is such an eclectic
 group, though, I figured someone would know something about it.  Worst
 case scenario - half of you tell me to shut up and the other half gets
 into a flame war.  g

i am not quite sure whether i can answer the questions you raise, but
i'll pitch in anyway.

perhaps it's just a ritual of a brother/sisterhood? (refer the warm
fuzzy feeling you feel all over when you open your pdml account? :))
for some that can be a felt need, especially when modern society is
structured to keep individuals as isolated as possible (that's no
scientific statement, just an opinion masquerading as observation).

seriously, speaking for myself, i enjoy running and cycling, have been
running around 40km a week since april 09 but have participated only in
two 'official' events so, both half marathons. primarily because that
was chance to meet (running) friends from across the country. do the
run, have a drink together later and go back to our respective cities
again. i have no such close cycling friends, so i do all my cycling
(including the summer ride in the himalayas). 

like i said, fwiw.. :)

regards, subash

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-08 Thread Miserere

Some people are masochists, some are highly competitive alphas. A few are both.

Then there are sheep. And also lemmings.

I've participated in organised mountain bike races. Sure, I could have
ridden those course without the other participants at any other time,
but I never pushed myself as hard as when I was racing. The pursuit
of the breaking point is what I used to call it. I never did reach
it, which might be for the best.

But maybe Obelix had it right when he said people are crazy.


  --M.
-- 

\/\/o/\/\ -- http://WorldOfMiserere.com

http://EnticingTheLight.com
A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment


On 8 November 2010 22:15, Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com wrote:
 O hai!  This is way off topic and concerns the reasons people feel
 compelled to do things in a group.  The PDML is such an eclectic
 group, though, I figured someone would know something about it.  Worst
 case scenario - half of you tell me to shut up and the other half gets
 into a flame war.  g

 I've been thinking about crowds, or rather the reasons people want to
 do things with other people.  This stems from looking into events such
 as marathons.  (I actually have no interest in running a marathon, but
 I'm going to use it as an example.)  I'm curious as to what makes a
 person want to do these things under the watchful eye of a sanctioning
 body or event organizer.  Also, I've noticed that there are people who
 will prepare for such events for the sole purpose of participating in
 the event.  In other words, if the organized event, such as a
 marathon, didn't exist then there is a distinct possibility that the
 participants wouldn't have bothered training to run such a distance.
 These things seem obvious on the surface, but why wouldn't a person
 who is driven to prepare and participate in such events just do it
 anyway, even without the organization or other runners?

 I don't like crowds at all.  The thought of spending money and dealing
 with the logistics of getting to and participating in a marathon, just
 so I can have a certificate and my name in a record book somewhere is
 completely foreign to me.  Another example - there's the Covered
 Bridge Metric Century in Lancaster County, PA.  It's a long,
 organized bicycle ride through some very scenic rolling hills.  As the
 name implies, the ride passes by or crosses several covered bridges.
 The cue sheet is published and anyone can download it.  I can go ride
 their metric century any time I want.  Yet, every year hundreds of
 cyclists will pay money, deal with traffic and parking, and wait in
 lines just to ride this route with a bunch of other tourists.  To me
 it sounds like a colossal headache.  But to quite a few other people
 it is apparently enjoyable.

 I initially started looking for explanations with search terms like
 crowd psychology, but that's something different.  So what I'm
 asking for is the psychological terminology that applies to this
 behavior.  I'd like to read more about it, but I'm unsure where to
 look.  Thanks!

 --
 Scott Loveless
 http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
     __o
   _'\,_
  (*)/  (*)

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-08 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2010-11-08 22:15, Scott Loveless wrote:


I initially started looking for explanations with search terms like
crowd psychology, but that's something different.  So what I'm
asking for is the psychological terminology that applies to this
behavior.  I'd like to read more about it, but I'm unsure where to
look.  Thanks!


Lemmingitis? :-)

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-08 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2010-11-08 22:43, Miserere wrote:

I've participated in organised mountain bike races. Sure, I could have
ridden those course without the other participants at any other time,
but I never pushed myself as hard as when I was racing. The pursuit
of the breaking point is what I used to call it. I never did reach
it, which might be for the best.


A bit more seriously, than my lemmingitis comment, I can't comment 
from first-hand experience.  I have an amateur auto racing license, and 
I drive in races, but I'm there more for the driving than for the 
racing.  I also run what are called High Performance Drivers Ed (HPDE) 
events, which are also on race tracks, but without the racing.  I have 
as much fun on HPDE days as on race days.  Though I've seen the other
types Miserere mentions in the cockpit many times.  I'm there because 
that's where the track is and when it's available. :-)


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Miserere miser...@gmail.com wrote:
 Some people are masochists, some are highly competitive alphas. A few are 
 both.

 Then there are sheep. And also lemmings.

 I've participated in organised mountain bike races. Sure, I could have
 ridden those course without the other participants at any other time,
 but I never pushed myself as hard as when I was racing. The pursuit
 of the breaking point is what I used to call it. I never did reach
 it, which might be for the best.

I think competition is different.  Many of the people who run marathon
races aren't there to compete.  The same for century rides.  So if
competition isn't a motivator, why not just prepare for a 26.2 mile
jog or a 100k bike ride, and then go do it on your own?

 But maybe Obelix had it right when he said people are crazy.

In the mid-80s, while living in Germany, I acquired a copy of Asterix
the Gaul.  English language for the European market.  It is one of
the few things I found funny as a child that I still find funny.  It
appears that the people who translated it later for the American
market went to great lengths to make it unappealing to children and
adults.

-- 
Scott (I am not fat!) Loveless
http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
    __o
  _'\,_
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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Doug Franklin
jehosep...@mindspring.com wrote:
 On 2010-11-08 22:43, Miserere wrote:

 I've participated in organised mountain bike races. Sure, I could have
 ridden those course without the other participants at any other time,
 but I never pushed myself as hard as when I was racing. The pursuit
 of the breaking point is what I used to call it. I never did reach
 it, which might be for the best.

 A bit more seriously, than my lemmingitis comment, I can't comment from
 first-hand experience.  I have an amateur auto racing license, and I drive
 in races, but I'm there more for the driving than for the racing.  I also
 run what are called High Performance Drivers Ed (HPDE) events, which are
 also on race tracks, but without the racing.  I have as much fun on HPDE
 days as on race days.  Though I've seen the other
 types Miserere mentions in the cockpit many times.  I'm there because that's
 where the track is and when it's available. :-)

A closed course could come into play.  Especially with marathon
runners.  I can understand that many people have a desire for that.
The difference is that you can't, at least not legally, outside of
Italyg, drive like that on public roads.  Automobile events that
emphasize speed are always on closed courses.  Organized races on
open, public roads simply don't exist.  Automobile events that do
occur on roads typically involve something that you can't do without a
group, such as road rally scavenger hunts, poker runs and gatherings
of people with the same model, or era, car.  Similarly, there are
loosely organized classic bicycle rides, for example.  However, what
you don't see are thousands of people showing up in whatever family
sedan they happen to own and paying money to be part of a gigantic
traffic jam over the course of a couple hundred miles.

-- 
Scott Loveless
http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
    __o
  _'\,_
 (*)/  (*)

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-08 Thread Bob Sullivan

Basic human psychology/motivations...
Need for Power.  Probably doesn't play to much in these situations.
Need for Achievement.  Absolutely!  'I can do this!'  Set goals then
achieve them.
Need for Affiliation.  Look at all the similar people I meet and can
become affiliated with.

Scott, I think it's pretty basic human motivation stuff here.  Regards,  Bob S.

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Scott Loveless sdlovel...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Doug Franklin
 jehosep...@mindspring.com wrote:
 On 2010-11-08 22:43, Miserere wrote:

 I've participated in organised mountain bike races. Sure, I could have
 ridden those course without the other participants at any other time,
 but I never pushed myself as hard as when I was racing. The pursuit
 of the breaking point is what I used to call it. I never did reach
 it, which might be for the best.

 A bit more seriously, than my lemmingitis comment, I can't comment from
 first-hand experience.  I have an amateur auto racing license, and I drive
 in races, but I'm there more for the driving than for the racing.  I also
 run what are called High Performance Drivers Ed (HPDE) events, which are
 also on race tracks, but without the racing.  I have as much fun on HPDE
 days as on race days.  Though I've seen the other
 types Miserere mentions in the cockpit many times.  I'm there because that's
 where the track is and when it's available. :-)

 A closed course could come into play.  Especially with marathon
 runners.  I can understand that many people have a desire for that.
 The difference is that you can't, at least not legally, outside of
 Italyg, drive like that on public roads.  Automobile events that
 emphasize speed are always on closed courses.  Organized races on
 open, public roads simply don't exist.  Automobile events that do
 occur on roads typically involve something that you can't do without a
 group, such as road rally scavenger hunts, poker runs and gatherings
 of people with the same model, or era, car.  Similarly, there are
 loosely organized classic bicycle rides, for example.  However, what
 you don't see are thousands of people showing up in whatever family
 sedan they happen to own and paying money to be part of a gigantic
 traffic jam over the course of a couple hundred miles.

 --
 Scott Loveless
 http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
     __o
   _'\,_
  (*)/  (*)

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-08 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2010-11-08 23:22, Scott Loveless wrote:


The difference is that you can't, at least not legally, outside of
Italyg, drive like that on public roads.


Yeah, that was sort of my (implicit) point.  If I could legally and 
safely drive that fast elsewhere, I would.  But I can't, so I'm there 
with the crowd, because that's when and where I'm allowed to legally and 
can do it safely.  So it's similar to racing on say a famous 'drome or 
road circuit on bicycles or foot, but different in that there's no 
(legal and safe) alternative with the cars.


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RE: Way, way OT - crowds and events

2010-11-08 Thread John Sessoms


Tribal Bonding Rituals

From: Scott Loveless


O hai!  This is way off topic and concerns the reasons people feel
compelled to do things in a group.  The PDML is such an eclectic
group, though, I figured someone would know something about it.  Worst
case scenario - half of you tell me to shut up and the other half gets
into a flame war.  g

I've been thinking about crowds, or rather the reasons people want to
do things with other people.  This stems from looking into events such
as marathons.  (I actually have no interest in running a marathon, but
I'm going to use it as an example.)  I'm curious as to what makes a
person want to do these things under the watchful eye of a sanctioning
body or event organizer.  Also, I've noticed that there are people who
will prepare for such events for the sole purpose of participating in
the event.  In other words, if the organized event, such as a
marathon, didn't exist then there is a distinct possibility that the
participants wouldn't have bothered training to run such a distance.
These things seem obvious on the surface, but why wouldn't a person
who is driven to prepare and participate in such events just do it
anyway, even without the organization or other runners?

I don't like crowds at all.  The thought of spending money and dealing
with the logistics of getting to and participating in a marathon, just
so I can have a certificate and my name in a record book somewhere is
completely foreign to me.  Another example - there's the Covered
Bridge Metric Century in Lancaster County, PA.  It's a long,
organized bicycle ride through some very scenic rolling hills.  As the
name implies, the ride passes by or crosses several covered bridges.
The cue sheet is published and anyone can download it.  I can go ride
their metric century any time I want.  Yet, every year hundreds of
cyclists will pay money, deal with traffic and parking, and wait in
lines just to ride this route with a bunch of other tourists.  To me
it sounds like a colossal headache.  But to quite a few other people
it is apparently enjoyable.

I initially started looking for explanations with search terms like
crowd psychology, but that's something different.  So what I'm
asking for is the psychological terminology that applies to this
behavior.  I'd like to read more about it, but I'm unsure where to
look.  Thanks!


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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote:

 Need for Achievement.  Absolutely!  'I can do this!'  Set goals then
 achieve them.

Right.  But why is an organized event with a gazillion other people
the motivator?

 Need for Affiliation.  Look at all the similar people I meet and can
 become affiliated with.

That could be it.  But why do we need some sanctioning body to
recognize it?  There are running clubs, bicycle clubs, swimming clubs,
etc. that are populated by people who will never compete, but they'll
do it for the camaraderie or the exercise or whatever.  Then, some of
them will train together so they can all go run some event with a
gazillion other people.  Which leads me to believe that in many people
with lemmingitis, the affiliation isn't the motivator.  It's the
recognition by the sanctioning body.  Again, why?

-- 
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http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/
    __o
  _'\,_
 (*)/  (*)

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Re: Way, way OT - crowds and events