Re: Compiling to Parrot
At 1:15 PM +0100 1/28/03, K Stol wrote: Hi there, didn't have time to reply earlier, had to do some research on Lua and had to get approval for the project, so couldn't let you know earlier. sorry about that. But now, I have it (the approval, that is) so I'll be implementing a compiler for Lua-parrot (most probably IMCC in between). Cool. Go for it, good luck, and nudge us on any parrot features (or misfeatures) that are getting in the way--we're not 1.0 yet, so there's plenty of room for change where needed. - Original Message - From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: K Stol [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Compiling to Parrot At 5:01 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: well, I think not, then I can't help it. What do you think about compiling Lua to parrot (IMCC)? I like the idea, and I don't think you'll see anyone else tackle it for a while. (And if that falls through, there's always LISP... :) From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 4:46 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Well, I'd do it as a project for my Bachelor's, so I won't get permission to do such a project, if it already exists. Ah, that could be a problem. Will it be a problem if you start a project that someone else later also starts? From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 9:17 AM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Hi there, A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. If you're interested in doing a Tcl compiler, by all means, go ahead--I wouldn't let the fact that someone else is doing it stop you. The point of doing it is for the experience, which you'll get regardless of any other implementation. It's also distinctly possible that neither you nor Will will finish a full implementation (as it's likely a rather large undertaking for one person) but you'll each have part of it that can be merged together. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Compiling to Parrot
Hi there, didn't have time to reply earlier, had to do some research on Lua and had to get approval for the project, so couldn't let you know earlier. sorry about that. But now, I have it (the approval, that is) so I'll be implementing a compiler for Lua-parrot (most probably IMCC in between). thanks to the people who suggested/replied on my posting. Regards Klaas-Jan - Original Message - From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: K Stol [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Compiling to Parrot At 5:01 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: well, I think not, then I can't help it. What do you think about compiling Lua to parrot (IMCC)? I like the idea, and I don't think you'll see anyone else tackle it for a while. (And if that falls through, there's always LISP... :) From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 4:46 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Well, I'd do it as a project for my Bachelor's, so I won't get permission to do such a project, if it already exists. Ah, that could be a problem. Will it be a problem if you start a project that someone else later also starts? From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 9:17 AM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Hi there, A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. If you're interested in doing a Tcl compiler, by all means, go ahead--I wouldn't let the fact that someone else is doing it stop you. The point of doing it is for the experience, which you'll get regardless of any other implementation. It's also distinctly possible that neither you nor Will will finish a full implementation (as it's likely a rather large undertaking for one person) but you'll each have part of it that can be merged together. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
RE: Compiling to Parrot
All~ It occurs to me that no one has mentioned ML. ML would be a pretty good language to compile to parrot, and has reasonably strong usage in academic circle... Matt -Original Message- From: K Stol [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 3:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Compiling to Parrot Hi there, A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. I think parrot is a cool target for compiling, and I'd like to do some sort of a compiler project. However, I don't know which language to compile. My knowledge is basic, so any OO language would take too much time. Has anybody any suggestions for me? (maybe modula2?) Regards. Klaas-Jan Stol
Re: Compiling to Parrot
At 8:54 AM -0500 1/21/03, Christopher Armstrong wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2003 at 08:41:47AM +, Simon Wistow wrote: Speaking of games, it would be interesting to see Parrot be used in that direction. A lot of games currently are pretty much developed along the lines of 'custom scripting language interfaced to custom game engine' One of the reasons I'm interested in Parrot -- I'm hoping that it's going to have some secure execution facilities built-in from the ground up (to facilitate user-code on virtual world servers) :-) Yep. I've not spec'd them out as I've been trying to deal with other things, but secure execution is something I've been thinking of since the beginning. Perl 5's model has some rather significant flaws, as does Java's sandboxing, albeit fewer of them. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
RE: Compiling to Parrot
At 11:43 PM -0800 1/21/03, Paul Du Bois wrote: The advantage of Lua (at least for my project, which is a game) is that it is quite easy to embed, and quite easy to customize. The C API is small and easily understandable (at the expense of being a little bit of a pain to use), and the internals are simple and quite malleable. The language itself is pretty ugly IMHO. So... I can't think of a good purpose of Lua/Parrot myself. I'm not trying to discourage you by any means! If I were to embed a Parrot interpreter for our next game (!) I'd happily leave Lua behind. Well, then, let's see what we can do to make parrot suitable for your needs. :) Only thing I need to know before I can start is: what would the purpose be of a Lua to Parrot compiler? Lua is originally an embedded language for easy-scripting, as far as I understand. How could it be used when targeted to parrot? Would it be possible to call functions written in Lua (and which are then compiled to parrot) from (for example) a python script? (So: python script calls function writtenin Lua and compiled to parrot). Klaas-Jan -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
RE: Compiling to Parrot
I lost the original mail asking for suggestions, so there is no quoted text here, but have you looked at Joy (http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy.html). Looks to be quite clean and simple. I haven't had the time to delve into it, but when I was reminded of it on the Ruby list, I thought I would suggest it here. Chad
Re: Compiling to Parrot
K Stol sent the following bits through the ether: A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. An interesting project to do would be to do a Java-Parrot compiler. Basing it on an existing Java compiler such as Jikes is probably the best way to do this: http://oss.software.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/jikes/ You'd also probably use GNU Classpath: http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/classpath.html HTH, Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ scribot.http://www.scribot.com/ ... Hmm... How *did* they finally kill Frosty?
Re: Compiling to Parrot
PHP is especially used in web pages. Would there be any advantage to have a PHP-Parrot compiler? LUA seems to be a very nice language, but how is this language to be used? Is it in combination with a C program one would write? Or could it be used as a stand alone application? In that case, it seems to me it would be interesting to have a LUA-Parrot (with IMCC in between) compiler. Regards. Klaas-Jan Stol - Original Message - From: Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: K Stol [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:41 AM Subject: Re: Compiling to Parrot On Tue, Jan 21, 2003 at 09:17:56AM +0100, K Stol said: A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. I think parrot is a cool target for compiling, and I'd like to do some sort of a compiler project. However, I don't know which language to compile. My knowledge is basic, so any OO language would take too much time. Has anybody any suggestions for me? (maybe modula2?) PHP? Similar enough to Perl to make it interesting, nice clean design and an available grammar. People have already done some work IIRC. Lua? Similar-ish to TCL and liked by the games industry. It is procedural but provides meta mechanisms for implementing classes and inheritance. Speaking of games, it would be interesting to see Parrot be used in that direction. A lot of games currently are pretty much developed along the lines of 'custom scripting language interfaced to custom game engine' # game scripting in Python http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20020821/dawson_pfv.htm # Postmortem of Jak and Daxter which was scripted in Lisp http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20020710/white_01.htm Parrot seems to be ideal for this, especially since you could easily have seperate scripting languages for, say, the world logic and the AI for NPCs, both of which could compile to Parrot and interact with each other. Simon -- I'm full of borrowed ideas that I have no intention of returning
Re: Compiling to Parrot
On Tue, Jan 21, 2003 at 12:14:29PM +0100, K Stol said: PHP is especially used in web pages. Would there be any advantage to have a PHP-Parrot compiler? Depends what you mean by 'advantage'. Currently, as far as I know, PHP runs on a virtual machine, just like Perl so it's a good candidate for porting. It is also relatively feature comparable whilst being easier to parse. Doing a PHP-Parrot compiler would have these advantages : * demonstrate your understanding of a inplementing the compiler for a featureful language * allow interaction between Perl6 and PHP scripts/modules * tap into the PHP community's tuits whcih would mean Parrot'd be likely to get stuff like the Zend optimiser and a generic mod_* backend so that all languages implemented on top of Parrot would have a mod_(php/perl) Apache hook automagically. * really push Parrot with a real-world, non toy language. LUA seems to be a very nice language, but how is this language to be used? Is it in combination with a C program one would write? Or could it be used as a stand alone application? In that case, it seems to me it would be interesting to have a LUA-Parrot (with IMCC in between) compiler. As I said, I only know it from a games context where it's used as the basis for the scripting engine. AIUI it can be used a a standalone language as well. From what I know it's specifically designed to be a portable, fast, lightweight platform for extending platforms and providing a framework for implementing domain specific languages. So, basically, a perfect fit for Parrot. In fact, if you take http://www.lua.org/about.html and s/Lua/Parrot/ it still makes sense :) Simon
Re: Compiling to Parrot
At 9:17 AM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Hi there, A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. If you're interested in doing a Tcl compiler, by all means, go ahead--I wouldn't let the fact that someone else is doing it stop you. The point of doing it is for the experience, which you'll get regardless of any other implementation. It's also distinctly possible that neither you nor Will will finish a full implementation (as it's likely a rather large undertaking for one person) but you'll each have part of it that can be merged together. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Compiling to Parrot
Well, I'd do it as a project for my Bachelor's, so I won't get permission to do such a project, if it already exists. Klaas-Jan - Original Message - From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: K Stol [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 4:40 PM Subject: Re: Compiling to Parrot At 9:17 AM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Hi there, A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. If you're interested in doing a Tcl compiler, by all means, go ahead--I wouldn't let the fact that someone else is doing it stop you. The point of doing it is for the experience, which you'll get regardless of any other implementation. It's also distinctly possible that neither you nor Will will finish a full implementation (as it's likely a rather large undertaking for one person) but you'll each have part of it that can be merged together. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Compiling to Parrot
If memory serves me right, Leon Brocard wrote: An interesting project to do would be to do a Java-Parrot compiler. Hmm... I think with the current Parrot setup that might be a bit difficult. We need object instructions for that , also I need to be able to define classes,interfaces and all the Java thingys there ... Basing it on an existing Java compiler such as Jikes is probably the best way to do this: Yikes ! (in a thick foreign accent)... My bachelor's project is a Java compiler for DotGNU ... and I had a look over of Jikes (and Kjc) for retargetting ... Eventhough I was planning on building a stack bytecode , I found it quite something to hack on... (in short, my attempts broke it...) Kjc is a bit more decent though it's quite OO and might take some redesign to pass back the result register (instead of assuming that the value is in the stack top) ... I've decided to base it on the Portable.net codegen... (I've got it into parsing now...) ... This is a Java - IL compiler from Java source ... But once the C# - Parrot compiler works , you might even have a Java - Parrot compiler ... (because I'm re-using almost all the C# AST nodes for my compiler, the PMCodegen should generate correct Parrot as well). Hopefully all this will work out for me... :) Gopal -- The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success
Re: Compiling to Parrot
At 4:46 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Well, I'd do it as a project for my Bachelor's, so I won't get permission to do such a project, if it already exists. Ah, that could be a problem. Will it be a problem if you start a project that someone else later also starts? From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 9:17 AM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Hi there, A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. If you're interested in doing a Tcl compiler, by all means, go ahead--I wouldn't let the fact that someone else is doing it stop you. The point of doing it is for the experience, which you'll get regardless of any other implementation. It's also distinctly possible that neither you nor Will will finish a full implementation (as it's likely a rather large undertaking for one person) but you'll each have part of it that can be merged together. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Compiling to Parrot
At 5:13 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Only thing I need to know before I can start is: what would the purpose be of a Lua to Parrot compiler? Lua is originally an embedded language for easy-scripting, as far as I understand. How could it be used when targeted to parrot? Would it be possible to call functions written in Lua (and which are then compiled to parrot) from (for example) a python script? (So: python script calls function writtenin Lua and compiled to parrot). If you follow the calling conventions, then yes you'll be able to call python/ruby/perl/befunge routines from Lua code, and vice versa. From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 5:01 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: well, I think not, then I can't help it. What do you think about compiling Lua to parrot (IMCC)? I like the idea, and I don't think you'll see anyone else tackle it for a while. (And if that falls through, there's always LISP... :) From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 4:46 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Well, I'd do it as a project for my Bachelor's, so I won't get permission to do such a project, if it already exists. Ah, that could be a problem. Will it be a problem if you start a project that someone else later also starts? From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 9:17 AM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Hi there, A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. If you're interested in doing a Tcl compiler, by all means, go ahead--I wouldn't let the fact that someone else is doing it stop you. The point of doing it is for the experience, which you'll get regardless of any other implementation. It's also distinctly possible that neither you nor Will will finish a full implementation (as it's likely a rather large undertaking for one person) but you'll each have part of it that can be merged together. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Compiling to Parrot
Is it possible for parrot-code to call functions in other parrot files? (which implies there is some program which consists of multiple files) Klaas-Jan - Original Message - From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: K Stol [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Compiling to Parrot At 5:13 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Only thing I need to know before I can start is: what would the purpose be of a Lua to Parrot compiler? Lua is originally an embedded language for easy-scripting, as far as I understand. How could it be used when targeted to parrot? Would it be possible to call functions written in Lua (and which are then compiled to parrot) from (for example) a python script? (So: python script calls function writtenin Lua and compiled to parrot). If you follow the calling conventions, then yes you'll be able to call python/ruby/perl/befunge routines from Lua code, and vice versa. From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 5:01 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: well, I think not, then I can't help it. What do you think about compiling Lua to parrot (IMCC)? I like the idea, and I don't think you'll see anyone else tackle it for a while. (And if that falls through, there's always LISP... :) From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 4:46 PM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Well, I'd do it as a project for my Bachelor's, so I won't get permission to do such a project, if it already exists. Ah, that could be a problem. Will it be a problem if you start a project that someone else later also starts? From: Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 9:17 AM +0100 1/21/03, K Stol wrote: Hi there, A few weeks ago I posted something about a Tcl-parrot compiler, but Will Coleda already was working on such a project. It would be a as a final project for my bachelor's. But because such already exists, I'm looking for something else. If you're interested in doing a Tcl compiler, by all means, go ahead--I wouldn't let the fact that someone else is doing it stop you. The point of doing it is for the experience, which you'll get regardless of any other implementation. It's also distinctly possible that neither you nor Will will finish a full implementation (as it's likely a rather large undertaking for one person) but you'll each have part of it that can be merged together. -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk -- Dan --it's like this--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Compiling to Parrot
On Tue, Jan 21, 2003 at 08:41:47AM +, Simon Wistow wrote: Speaking of games, it would be interesting to see Parrot be used in that direction. A lot of games currently are pretty much developed along the lines of 'custom scripting language interfaced to custom game engine' One of the reasons I'm interested in Parrot -- I'm hoping that it's going to have some secure execution facilities built-in from the ground up (to facilitate user-code on virtual world servers) :-) -- Twisted | Christopher Armstrong: International Man of Twistery Radix | Release Manager, Twisted Project -+ http://twistedmatrix.com/users/radix.twistd/
RE: Compiling to Parrot
The advantage of Lua (at least for my project, which is a game) is that it is quite easy to embed, and quite easy to customize. The C API is small and easily understandable (at the expense of being a little bit of a pain to use), and the internals are simple and quite malleable. The language itself is pretty ugly IMHO. So... I can't think of a good purpose of Lua/Parrot myself. I'm not trying to discourage you by any means! If I were to embed a Parrot interpreter for our next game (!) I'd happily leave Lua behind. p Only thing I need to know before I can start is: what would the purpose be of a Lua to Parrot compiler? Lua is originally an embedded language for easy-scripting, as far as I understand. How could it be used when targeted to parrot? Would it be possible to call functions written in Lua (and which are then compiled to parrot) from (for example) a python script? (So: python script calls function writtenin Lua and compiled to parrot). Klaas-Jan
