Re: [Pharo-users] wwwhisper

[Robert Withers]

I have no idea if that's true, I like to dream and I am just glad it is 
here. happy holidays.



On 12/14/2016 6:46 PM, Robert Withers wrote:
here's a good step I think it settled well. encoders are next. I 
haven't got any java left . Merry Christmas! Here's the profile. AS 
fast as bitblt are you serious?




 - 27380 tallies, 28129 msec.

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Re: [Pharo-users] what is Pharo's mission statement? (was Re: Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar))

[Robert Withers]

Thanks for this information, Ben. I have my protocol stack using sockets 
and am using Fuel, so a few more adjustments at my session layer and 
then my presentation layer and I can start passing packages around 
between minimal images, loading and unloading them, serialized as 
PassByConstruction, rather than PassByProxy so that code can be locally 
constituted. I would then work on building a distributed registry and 
package manager and take a close look at distributed logging.


best, robert

On 12/29/2015 05:55 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 6:05 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:


On 12/28/2015 01:42 PM, Marcus Denker wrote:

On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:33, Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com>
wrote:



On 12/28/2015 01:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:

On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:11, Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I got you, stephano. I do not wish to be banned.

Leaving aside established spiritual traditions, but picking out the
pattern for exploration, what would you say the meta-meme of Pharo is? In
other words, what is the mission statement? This would help me grasp the
motivations of the community and is not a meaningless exercise for the
community, from a leadership development perspective..

http://pharo.org/about.
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30434/PharoVision.pdf

This is awesome, thank you for posting it. It mentions a roadmap. Is
there such a page?

We are working on an updated roadmap.


Thanks for setting the right expectations, please enjoy the holidays. I will
enjoy it when it is properly aged.


We will update it to form a roadmap soon… (I wanted to have it done
already, but was busy
with other things end of the year…)


I understand and the results of your efforts are plain to see. Pharo-5 runs
my work well. I have been reading your section 4 in the Vision document with
great interest. Particularly, I find I like 4.2, 4.3, 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8,
4.11 and 4.12. I would like to try my work on top of ocean.

4.2 FileSystem was integrated integrated into Pharo 2
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=filesystem

4.3 Announcement were introduced in Pharo 1.3
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=announcements

Ephemeron VM support available soon in Spur VM (?).  Probably work
more needed image side (?)

4.5 Bootstrap Core - Work In Progress
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-5.0-Update-Step-3-Minimal/Full

4.6 Fully parametrized compiler tool chain
I'm not clear on what "fully parameterized" encompasses, but the old
Compiler was replaced by new OpalCompiler in Pharo 3 - I guess to
satisfy this.
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=opal

4.7 Packages as real objects
Begun in Pharo 2 with introduction of RPackage. Completed in Pharo 4
with removal of PackageInfo.
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=package

4.8 Package Meta-Data
Not sure what this entails or status.  Package Manifest introduced in Pharo 2
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=manifest

4.11 New Network Layer - I don't know.

4.12 Serializers - Fuel is the default serializer since Pharo 2.  I
don't know the rest of the scope for this point.
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=fuel=Code

cheers -ben



--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

On 12/28/2015 04:58 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote:



2015-12-28 3:15 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com 
<mailto:robert.w.with...@gmail.com>>:


Here's the thing that gets my goat: I had already acknowledged it
was enough for the list and was signing off further comment when
Ben decided he really needed to add his two cents. It is
unfortunate he did not spend his change in a positive manner but
wished to be negative and critical.




Hi Robert,
usually, I don't comment on this kind of discussion. It wastes 
resources we don't have.
I just want to let other peoples (like ben, phil, johan,...) know, 
that I share their opinion.
I don't like if people argue with "I am censored", because someone 
critisized you.

I don't like if people see every critic as a negative personel attack.

you post on this list, and people suggest to stay ontopic resp. 
explain how this things are related

to pharo. That's all.


Which is exactly what I did, I posted how it is related and still caught 
a knee-jerk reaction. I am drawing a line. I will continue to reference 
religious and scriptural meta-models. There is coherent thought in these 
models and they are familiar to the majority of the people on the 
planet, the average person, even if the intellectuals fail to resonate 
with it. This familiarity makes it a good model for the average person 
to interact. Seems to be a lack of knowledge on the side of the 
intellectuals.


Robert




nicolai

I was unwilling to let that go by as an implicit restriction on
the substance of my posting, into the future. ...and the thread is
twice as long. Not my doing.  Some things must be challenged.

Do you know what I mean, then? Just say no to intellectual coercion.

robert

On 12/27/2015 11:33 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

Hi Robert,

I'm glad your found someone on the list to connect to on a spiritual level,
but could you please keep your public posts to technical matters,
(plus keep signatures short and trim old signatures from quoted
responses - which unfortunately threaded email clients like gmail
often hide)

cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 2:15 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> <mailto:robert.w.with...@gmail.com>  wrote:

*My apologies...I'll try for #random. :)*

nameste,
robert


--
There are five kinds of coloring (kleshas):
1) forgetting, or ignorance about the true nature of things (avidya),
2) I-ness, individuality, or egoism (asmita),
3) attachment or addiction to mental impressions or objects (raga),
4) aversion to thought patterns or objects (dvesha), and
5) love of these as being life itself, as well as fear of their loss as
being death.
(avidya asmita raga dvesha abhinivesha pancha klesha)


    On 12/27/2015 09:44 AM, Robert Withers wrote:

I was thinking about this on my drive home, more, and I think that I was
jumping the duck. #new is related to named classes, therefore in the analogy
of brahma-loka, this is more of a rupa level behavior. The arupa level is
there (and there is a #new at that level) but it deals with things that have
no form, but by name only (#allInstancesDo:).

cheers,
robert

---

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me.
Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer
of all living entities and although I am everywhere, I am
not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the
very source of creation.




    On 12/26/2015 08:50 PM, Robert Withers wrote:

On Dec 26, 2015, at 2:26 AM, Saša Janiška<g...@atmarama.com> 
<mailto:g...@atmarama.com>  wrote:

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 15:59 -0500, Robert Withers wrote:

Hello Robert,

Good day Saša,

Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge
sacrifice eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and
a good thing too.

Nice comparison...although, being at the beginning I still do not
understand/see it as a sacrifice, but can feel it is liberating.

I suppose I think that the expenditure of time, resources, concentration and
effort constitute said sacrifice of knowledge as new broader knowledge
supplants older limited knowledge.


As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint:
it is close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

:-)

Well I do think the meta system is the realms of brahma-loka, and that is
split into rupa and arupa. Please let us know your thoughts on this
speculation when you find #new! :-)
Hare hare and Merry Christmas,

Haribol and Happy New Year!

Dhiyo yo nah prachodayat!

---
But those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My
transcendental form—to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they
have.


--
  

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

Ben, I appreciate your reply. We were both involved in establishing 
boundaries: yours in the negative (don't post such here) and mine in the 
positive (I'll feel free to post on such matters).


I'll follow your lead and not respond anymore to this thread.

Best,
Robert

On 12/28/2015 06:52 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sure Ben, I could. My apologies if the paradigm of spirituality bothers you
but it is a perfectly legitimate source of analogy AND interactive fiction,
having just been exposed to what that is.

I'm quite comfortable with spirituality in the right context.  Its
just a *distraction* from the technical content.  Your posts have
interesting technical questions but the spiritual padding obfuscates
them such that I can't understand what you are asking and makes me
feel unqualified to any answer - so can only ignore such posts. But
actually I don't like doing so, thus I sought to advise you in a
concise way that did not pollute the mail list too much.I'm sure
others in the community are in the same boat, so really you are
narrowing your opportunity for useful responses from the community.


In addition I am connecting this to an educational process
and picture of some unique areas of Pharo.
I don't seem to have a problem nor am I breaking any "rules" I am aware of
unless you have dominion, agency and possession to be establishing such a rule 
at
this time.

Interesting that you take such an adversarial position to a polite
request.  Religion is divisive and any particular doctrine can
alienate community members of some other doctrine, similar maybe to
how you feel about my request.  This divisiveness is best left to
other forums.

There are no written rules and I'm not establishing a new one.  But
any community has an established culture and expectations of content,
which anyone should be able discern from observation of the majority
posts.  It behoves you to pay attention to this of your own accord.
Indeed my comment should not have been necessary - but entropy dilutes
community standards unless they are actively maintained.

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here's the thing that gets my goat: I had already acknowledged it was enough
for the list and was signing off further comment when Ben decided he really
needed to add his two cents. It is unfortunate he did not spend his change
in a positive manner but wished to be negative and critical.

It was a hard decision for me to speak out.  Its a fine line balancing
community norms against open discussion and I don't want to be the
arbitrator. But again community standards don't maintain themselves.
Now it is was not that particular thread but rather the spiritual
padding pervading many of your posts.


I was unwilling to let that go by as an implicit restriction on the
substance of my posting, into the future. ...and the thread is twice as
long. Not my doing.  Some things must be challenged.

Online communities cooperate together under many implicit rules, so
they sometimes can be missed.  Rather I was explicitly bringing this
rule to your attention.  I do this publicly to provide the opportunity
for other community members to correct me if I'm wrong.


Do you know what I mean, then? Just say no to intellectual coercion.

Or say yes to playing well with others.


If so, I will desist; otherwise I will continue to mine the
ancient sources of psychology and sociology for application to the best damn
little programming environment every other language fails to emulate.

Once again, my apologies this upsets you.

Its not upsetting, just tedious to have to twice take my time to
advise to you of community expectations.
But this is only a request, and its not a productive discussion so
will be my last post on the topic.  Take a free right of reply and
I'll follow up in private.

cheers -ben



Sincerely,
Robert


On 12/27/2015 11:33 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

Hi Robert,

I'm glad your found someone on the list to connect to on a spiritual
level,
but could you please keep your public posts to technical matters,
(plus keep signatures short and trim old signatures from quoted
responses - which unfortunately threaded email clients like gmail
often hide)

cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 2:15 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

I am not quite sure where arupa is (without form), actually. I have
always
thought of it as namarupa (name and form) and never before as arupa. The
VM
is what deals with form/rupa and binds the names/nama of the image
together,
through dynamic lookup, versus static lookup. Alive & dead.

I've never thought about the arupa of Pharo, yet I was thinking it was
the
meta layers, where everything has the same amorphic form.

Perhaps the analogy starts to fall apart. My apologies...I'll try for
#random. :)

nameste,
robert


--
There are five kinds of c

Re: [Pharo-users] Smallworlds - Interactive Fiction Framework

[Robert Withers]

Cool, I am stuck in the cloak room and can't find the bar.

Can you create objects inside the adventure?

On 12/28/2015 08:07 AM, Eric Velten de Melo wrote:

(AdventureShell world: (CDGameWorld new)) openWithSpec.


--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

[Pharo-users] Robotic Avatars

[Robert Withers]

On 12/28/2015 08:11 AM, Robert Withers wrote:



On 12/28/2015 08:01 AM, Johan Fabry wrote:

Robert,

Consider it from my point of view: I am not forcing you to think 
about design decisions of the JIT of the domain-specific language for 
robotics that am I building.


Good Lord in Heaven, please tell me more! I always love to learn more 
and I am right at home living inside a joint space perspective. I am 
highly interested in the JIT and robotics.


Best regards,
Robert


I plan to define a logical avatar, with various characteristics and 
attached attributes. This will be viewable through a chosen perspective 
and there may be more than one tech level perspective. A strong 
perspective of avatars in 2D or 3D graphics and using robotics to 
control avatars and NPCs in this space seems important to my vision of 
this. Think of the Metaverse and the underground passages in the black 
hacker building (Snow Crash).


--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] Smallworlds - Interactive Fiction Framework

[Robert Withers]

Have you seen Quoth? It's sweet.

http://netjam.org/quoth/
https://vimeo.com/50530082

regards,
Robert

On 12/28/2015 08:31 AM, Eric Velten de Melo wrote:
2015-12-28 11:15 GMT-02:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com 
<mailto:robert.w.with...@gmail.com>>:


Cool, I am stuck in the cloak room and can't find the bar.

Can you create objects inside the adventure?


You mean create objects on the fly while you are playing? Not in a 
straightforward way, but you could, it's Smalltalk. The main reason 
why I started this project in the first place is because of the poor 
support the most popular interactive fiction frameworks had for 
dynamic object creation.


--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] Smallworlds - Interactive Fiction Framework

[Robert Withers]

I don't believe so.

On 12/28/2015 09:02 AM, ericvm wrote:
2015-12-28 11:35 GMT-02:00 Robert Withers [via Smalltalk] <[hidden 
email] >:


Have you seen Quoth? It's sweet.

http://netjam.org/quoth/
https://vimeo.com/50530082


Yes, I've seen it before, it is quite nice! I don't believe the source 
code is available, is it?



View this message in context: Re: Smallworlds - Interactive Fiction 
Framework 
<http://forum.world.st/Smallworlds-Interactive-Fiction-Framework-tp4868560p4868663.html>
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive 
<http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at Nabble.com.


--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] Smallworlds - Interactive Fiction Framework

[Robert Withers]

This looks interesting. How can it be used and made interactive? I would 
like to launch the CDGameWorld that did load with this configuration as 
an interactive session, to see how this package is used.


cheers,
Robert

On 12/27/2015 10:14 PM, Eric Velten de Melo wrote:
I think I fixed the issues with Metacello. Therefore, you should be 
able to load by using Gofer.


Gofer new
url:'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/ericvm/Smallworlds/main';
package: 'ConfigurationOfSmallworlds';
load.

((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfSmallworlds) project version:'0.3') load.


2015-12-27 23:14 GMT-02:00 Alexandre Bergel >:


Hi!

Something is wrong. PetitParser is indeed loaded. I get an error:
This package depends on the following classes:
  CommandParser
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to
load these definitions:
  CCCommandParser

Alexandre


> On Dec 27, 2015, at 9:13 PM, ericvm > wrote:
>
> You need to have PetitParser installed for it to work.
>
> ColossalCave is not ported, should be removed.
>
> I was not able to get the metacello cobfiguration working properly.
>
> But installing PetitParser and loading last commit of
Smallworlds package should be enough.
>
> To run cloak of darkness, type
> (AdventureShell world: (CDGameWorld new)) openWithSpec.
>
> Em 27 de dez de 2015 17:29, "abergel [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden
email]> escreveu:
> hi!
>
> I would like to try it, but I am facing some issues:
> - I cannot use your configuration on Pharo 5. I get an
error when trying to load the stable version
> - I therefore tried to manually load the two packages.
But Smallworlds-ColossalCave does not load. Some classes are missing.
>
> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
>
> > On Dec 27, 2015, at 12:03 PM, ericvm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know if this is the appropriate venue to do that, but
I'd like to
> > announce that I finished a stable implementation of a
framework for
> > developing Interactive Fiction in Pharo Smalltalk.
> >
> > It is based on an old code written by Bob Jarvis for Dolphin,
but it has
> > been changed so much that it is almost something new.
> >
> > This is my first project and I'm still working around
Metacello and
> > polishing stuff up. So I appreciate any code contributions,
comments or
> > thoughts about it.
> >
> > It is hosted on Smalltalkhub:
> > (http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~ericvm/Smallworlds
)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:

http://forum.world.st/Smallworlds-Interactive-Fiction-Framework-tp4868560.html
> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
> >
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion 
below:
>

http://forum.world.st/Smallworlds-Interactive-Fiction-Framework-tp4868560p4868585.html
> To unsubscribe from Smallworlds - Interactive Fiction Framework,
click here.
> NAML
>
> View this message in context: Re: Smallworlds - Interactive Fiction 
Framework
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.







--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

On 12/28/2015 08:01 AM, Johan Fabry wrote:

Robert,

Consider it from my point of view: I am not forcing you to think about 
design decisions of the JIT of the domain-specific language for 
robotics that am I building.


Good Lord in Heaven, please tell me more! I always love to learn more 
and I am right at home living inside a joint space perspective. I am 
highly interested in the JIT and robotics.


Best regards,
Robert



Greetings,

On Dec 28, 2015, at 08:29, Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com 
<mailto:robert.w.with...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Which is exactly what I did, I posted how it is related and still 
caught a knee-jerk reaction. I am drawing a line. I will continue to 
reference religious and scriptural meta-models. There is coherent 
thought in these models and they are familiar to the majority of the 
people on the planet, the average person, even if the intellectuals 
fail to resonate with it. This familiarity makes it a good model for 
the average person to interact. Seems to be a lack of knowledge on 
the side of the intellectuals.




---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry   - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry <http://pleiad.cl/%7Ejfabry>
PLEIAD and RyCh labs  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  - 
 University of Chile




--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

On 12/28/2015 01:00 PM, Martin Bähr wrote:

Excerpts from Ben Coman's message of 2015-12-28 12:52:02 +0100:

I'm quite comfortable with spirituality in the right context.  Its
just a *distraction* from the technical content.  Your posts have
interesting technical questions but the spiritual padding obfuscates
them such that I can't understand what you are asking and makes me
feel unqualified to any answer - so can only ignore such posts. But
actually I don't like doing so, thus I sought to advise you in a
concise way that did not pollute the mail list too much.I'm sure
others in the community are in the same boat, so really you are
narrowing your opportunity for useful responses from the community.

i'd like to second that. robert, the problem is that we are unfamiliar with the
terminology you are using. comparing pharo to religious concepts can be
interesting, but to make such a comparison, it would be necessary to explain
why such a comparison is relevant and what pharo users can gain from it. and
explain what each of the concepts are, in plain words.


Pharo may benefit from a broad analogy. It may help to attract new users.

But I got you. I will find a separate medium for explicitly spiritual. 
The meta-memes I would like to keep in scope here, with relevant limits, 
related to interactive fiction and overlay semantic proxies to color 
technical differently.  Vampires and mummies, perhaps! Just kidding. :)


best,
robert





I don't seem to have a problem nor am I breaking any "rules" I am aware of

you are breaking the rule of missing or loosing your audience.


Interesting that you take such an adversarial position to a polite
request.  Religion is divisive and any particular doctrine can
alienate community members of some other doctrine

religion should not be divisive.
if religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred, division, it is better to be
without it[1].

my personal corollary: if talking about religion leads to dislike, then i stop
talking about it.

greetings, martin.
[1|`Abdu’l-Bahá]



--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

[Pharo-users] what is Pharo's mission statement? (was Re: Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar))

[Robert Withers]

I got you, stephano. I do not wish to be banned.

Leaving aside established spiritual traditions, but picking out the 
pattern for exploration, what would you say the meta-meme of Pharo is? 
In other words, what is the mission statement? This would help me grasp 
the motivations of the community and is not a meaningless exercise for 
the community, from a leadership development perspective..


best,

robert


On 12/28/2015 12:01 PM, stepharo wrote:
To conclude this thread, Robert I suggest that you stay on a technical 
discussion.

Do not force us to ban you (we will do it if you continue) because people
are distracted.
Most of us do not understand all these spiritual points and do not 
want to

read about them in such mailing-lists.

Stef



--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] what is Pharo's mission statement? (was Re: Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar))

[Robert Withers]

On 12/28/2015 01:42 PM, Marcus Denker wrote:

On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:33, Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:



On 12/28/2015 01:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:

On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:11, Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

I got you, stephano. I do not wish to be banned.

Leaving aside established spiritual traditions, but picking out the pattern for 
exploration, what would you say the meta-meme of Pharo is? In other words, what 
is the mission statement? This would help me grasp the motivations of the 
community and is not a meaningless exercise for the community, from a 
leadership development perspective..

http://pharo.org/about.
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30434/PharoVision.pdf

This is awesome, thank you for posting it. It mentions a roadmap. Is there such 
a page?

We are working on an updated roadmap.


Thanks for setting the right expectations, please enjoy the holidays. I 
will enjoy it when it is properly aged.



We will update it to form a roadmap soon… (I wanted to have it done already, 
but was busy
with other things end of the year…)


I understand and the results of your efforts are plain to see. Pharo-5 
runs my work well. I have been reading your section 4 in the Vision 
document with great interest. Particularly, I find I like 4.2, 4.3, 4.5, 
4.6, 4.7, 4.8, 4.11 and 4.12. I would like to try my work on top of ocean.


robert



Marcus


--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] what is Pharo's mission statement? (was Re: Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar))

[Robert Withers]

On 12/28/2015 01:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:

On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:11, Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

I got you, stephano. I do not wish to be banned.

Leaving aside established spiritual traditions, but picking out the pattern for 
exploration, what would you say the meta-meme of Pharo is? In other words, what 
is the mission statement? This would help me grasp the motivations of the 
community and is not a meaningless exercise for the community, from a 
leadership development perspective..

http://pharo.org/about.
https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30434/PharoVision.pdf


This is awesome, thank you for posting it. It mentions a roadmap. Is 
there such a page?



In an image, you can also do World Menu > Help > Pharo Zen


Yes, my talk of meta-memes is stretching the "Abstraction and 
composition are our friends." in new directions. I exceeded capacity for 
such on the religious side and the concern over divisiveness 
notwithstanding. Ok, done.






best,

robert


On 12/28/2015 12:01 PM, stepharo wrote:

To conclude this thread, Robert I suggest that you stay on a technical 
discussion.
Do not force us to ban you (we will do it if you continue) because people
are distracted.
Most of us do not understand all these spiritual points and do not want to
read about them in such mailing-lists.

Stef


--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^






--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

I must say as well, I disagree strenuously to the community were 
attempts made to classify spiritual and religious scholarship and 
commentary, related as it demonstrably is to meta models in Smalltalk, 
to be placed on the censorship list.


I strenuously object to these objections to the sciences of consciousness.

respectfully,
robert


On 12/27/2015 11:33 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

Hi Robert,

I'm glad your found someone on the list to connect to on a spiritual level,
but could you please keep your public posts to technical matters,
(plus keep signatures short and trim old signatures from quoted
responses - which unfortunately threaded email clients like gmail
often hide)

cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 2:15 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

I am not quite sure where arupa is (without form), actually. I have always
thought of it as namarupa (name and form) and never before as arupa. The VM
is what deals with form/rupa and binds the names/nama of the image together,
through dynamic lookup, versus static lookup. Alive & dead.

I've never thought about the arupa of Pharo, yet I was thinking it was the
meta layers, where everything has the same amorphic form.

Perhaps the analogy starts to fall apart. My apologies...I'll try for
#random. :)

nameste,
robert


--
There are five kinds of coloring (kleshas):
1) forgetting, or ignorance about the true nature of things (avidya),
2) I-ness, individuality, or egoism (asmita),
3) attachment or addiction to mental impressions or objects (raga),
4) aversion to thought patterns or objects (dvesha), and
5) love of these as being life itself, as well as fear of their loss as
being death.
(avidya asmita raga dvesha abhinivesha pancha klesha)


On 12/27/2015 09:44 AM, Robert Withers wrote:

I was thinking about this on my drive home, more, and I think that I was
jumping the duck. #new is related to named classes, therefore in the analogy
of brahma-loka, this is more of a rupa level behavior. The arupa level is
there (and there is a #new at that level) but it deals with things that have
no form, but by name only (#allInstancesDo:).

cheers,
robert

---

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me.
Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer
of all living entities and although I am everywhere, I am
not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the
very source of creation.




On 12/26/2015 08:50 PM, Robert Withers wrote:

On Dec 26, 2015, at 2:26 AM, Saša Janiška <g...@atmarama.com> wrote:

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 15:59 -0500, Robert Withers wrote:

Hello Robert,

Good day Saša,

Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge
sacrifice eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and
a good thing too.

Nice comparison...although, being at the beginning I still do not
understand/see it as a sacrifice, but can feel it is liberating.

I suppose I think that the expenditure of time, resources, concentration and
effort constitute said sacrifice of knowledge as new broader knowledge
supplants older limited knowledge.


As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint:
it is close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

:-)

Well I do think the meta system is the realms of brahma-loka, and that is
split into rupa and arupa. Please let us know your thoughts on this
speculation when you find #new! :-)

Hare hare and Merry Christmas,

Haribol and Happy New Year!

Dhiyo yo nah prachodayat!

---
But those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My
transcendental form—to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they
have.


--
As a lamp in a windless place does not waver, so the transcendentalist,
whose mind is controlled, remains always steady in his meditation on the
transcendent self.

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

Thank you Offray, for a way out of this dreadful conversation of 
opposition to free-thinking. Ahh, irony. You make an exceelent 
observation of some limitations you say you have also run into and your 
thoughtful solution to this.


best,

--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^



On 12/27/2015 01:54 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

Robert,

I'm a newbie myself on this community, with near to a year in it, but 
not as active participation as I would like (I regret to answer back 
as quick as I get some feedback, but I'm trying to improve), so I 
don't know myself. I think that communities tend to be different on 
the way they behave according to on-topic or off-topic views. In the 
case of the Leo community, is not unusual some kind of public 
monologue about how to solve some issues, sharing "notes to myself" 
with all the list. In the case of Pharo/Moose the meta reflection 
seems better in places like blog post. I found this in my own case 
while asking questions in the Moose mailing list in long posts where I 
give a lot of background information and those did take a lot to be 
answered or where ignored at all. I remember that one meta-question I 
made to the list was "Am I asking wrong?" and after that I decided to 
test this combination of long background or panoramic/extra reflexions 
on blog post with more specific short questions in the respective 
mailing list or chat channel. I got better feedback in all channels 
(chat, mailing lists and blog comments) with this combination. See and 
example here:


http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/grafoscopio-idea-and-initial-progress.html

Hope this helps,

Offray

On 27/12/15 13:18, Robert Withers wrote:
Wait a second here. Let's be clear. In your first paragraph you say 
no need to feel that I am censored or ostracized, then the second 
paragraph you censor me.

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

Hi,

I am not quite sure where arupa is (without form), actually. I have 
always thought of it as namarupa (name and form) and never before as 
arupa. The VM is what deals with form/rupa and binds the names/nama of 
the image together, through dynamic lookup, versus static lookup. Alive 
& dead.


I've never thought about the arupa of Pharo, yet I was thinking it was 
the meta layers, where everything has the same amorphic form.


Perhaps the analogy starts to fall apart. My apologies...I'll try for 
#random. :)


nameste,
robert


--
There are five kinds of coloring (kleshas):
1) forgetting, or ignorance about the true nature of things (avidya),
2) I-ness, individuality, or egoism (asmita),
3) attachment or addiction to mental impressions or objects (raga),
4) aversion to thought patterns or objects (dvesha), and
5) love of these as being life itself, as well as fear of their loss as 
being death.

(avidya asmita raga dvesha abhinivesha pancha klesha)


On 12/27/2015 09:44 AM, Robert Withers wrote:
I was thinking about this on my drive home, more, and I think that I 
was jumping the duck. #new is related to named classes, therefore in 
the analogy of brahma-loka, this is more of a rupa level behavior. The 
arupa level is there (and there is a #new at that level) but it deals 
with things that have no form, but by name only (#allInstancesDo:).


cheers,
robert

---

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me.
Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer
of all living entities and although I am everywhere, I am
not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the
very source of creation.




On 12/26/2015 08:50 PM, Robert Withers wrote:

On Dec 26, 2015, at 2:26 AM, Saša Janiška<g...@atmarama.com>  wrote:

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 15:59 -0500, Robert Withers wrote:

Hello Robert,

Good day Saša,


Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge
sacrifice eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and
a good thing too.

Nice comparison...although, being at the beginning I still do not
understand/see it as a sacrifice, but can feel it is liberating.

I suppose I think that the expenditure of time, resources, concentration and 
effort constitute said sacrifice of knowledge as new broader knowledge 
supplants older limited knowledge.



As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint:
it is close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

:-)

Well I do think the meta system is the realms of brahma-loka, and that is split 
into rupa and arupa. Please let us know your thoughts on this speculation when 
you find #new! :-)



Hare hare and Merry Christmas,

Haribol and Happy New Year!

Dhiyo yo nah prachodayat!

---
But those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My 
transcendental form—to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they 
have.



--
As a lamp in a windless place does not waver, so the transcendentalist,
whose mind is controlled, remains always steady in his meditation on the
transcendent self.

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

I was thinking about this on my drive home, more, and I think that I was 
jumping the duck. #new is related to named classes, therefore in the 
analogy of brahma-loka, this is more of a rupa level behavior. The arupa 
level is there (and there is a #new at that level) but it deals with 
things that have no form, but by name only (#allInstancesDo:).


cheers,
robert

---

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me.
Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer
of all living entities and although I am everywhere, I am
not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the
very source of creation.




On 12/26/2015 08:50 PM, Robert Withers wrote:

On Dec 26, 2015, at 2:26 AM, Saša Janiška <g...@atmarama.com> wrote:

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 15:59 -0500, Robert Withers wrote:

Hello Robert,

Good day Saša,


Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge
sacrifice eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and
a good thing too.

Nice comparison...although, being at the beginning I still do not
understand/see it as a sacrifice, but can feel it is liberating.

I suppose I think that the expenditure of time, resources, concentration and 
effort constitute said sacrifice of knowledge as new broader knowledge 
supplants older limited knowledge.



As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint:
it is close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

:-)

Well I do think the meta system is the realms of brahma-loka, and that is split 
into rupa and arupa. Please let us know your thoughts on this speculation when 
you find #new! :-)



Hare hare and Merry Christmas,

Haribol and Happy New Year!

Dhiyo yo nah prachodayat!

---
But those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My 
transcendental form—to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they 
have.



--
As a lamp in a windless place does not waver, so the transcendentalist,
whose mind is controlled, remains always steady in his meditation on the
transcendent self.

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

Sure Ben, I could. My apologies if the paradigm of spirituality bothers 
you but it is a perfectly legitimate source of analogy AND interactive 
fiction, having just been exposed to what that is. In addition I am 
connecting this to an educational process and picture of some unique 
areas of Pharo. I don't seem to have a problem nor am I breaking any 
"rules" I am aware of unless you have dominion, agency and possession to 
be establishing such a rule at this time. If so, I will desist; 
otherwise I will continue to mine the ancient sources of psychology and 
sociology for application to the best damn little programming 
environment every other language fails to emulate.


Once again, my apologies this upsets you.

Sincerely,
Robert

On 12/27/2015 11:33 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

Hi Robert,

I'm glad your found someone on the list to connect to on a spiritual level,
but could you please keep your public posts to technical matters,
(plus keep signatures short and trim old signatures from quoted
responses - which unfortunately threaded email clients like gmail
often hide)

cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 2:15 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

I am not quite sure where arupa is (without form), actually. I have always
thought of it as namarupa (name and form) and never before as arupa. The VM
is what deals with form/rupa and binds the names/nama of the image together,
through dynamic lookup, versus static lookup. Alive & dead.

I've never thought about the arupa of Pharo, yet I was thinking it was the
meta layers, where everything has the same amorphic form.

Perhaps the analogy starts to fall apart. My apologies...I'll try for
#random. :)

nameste,
robert


--
There are five kinds of coloring (kleshas):
1) forgetting, or ignorance about the true nature of things (avidya),
2) I-ness, individuality, or egoism (asmita),
3) attachment or addiction to mental impressions or objects (raga),
4) aversion to thought patterns or objects (dvesha), and
5) love of these as being life itself, as well as fear of their loss as
being death.
(avidya asmita raga dvesha abhinivesha pancha klesha)


On 12/27/2015 09:44 AM, Robert Withers wrote:

I was thinking about this on my drive home, more, and I think that I was
jumping the duck. #new is related to named classes, therefore in the analogy
of brahma-loka, this is more of a rupa level behavior. The arupa level is
there (and there is a #new at that level) but it deals with things that have
no form, but by name only (#allInstancesDo:).

cheers,
robert

---

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me.
Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer
of all living entities and although I am everywhere, I am
not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the
very source of creation.




On 12/26/2015 08:50 PM, Robert Withers wrote:

On Dec 26, 2015, at 2:26 AM, Saša Janiška <g...@atmarama.com> wrote:

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 15:59 -0500, Robert Withers wrote:

Hello Robert,

Good day Saša,

Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge
sacrifice eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and
a good thing too.

Nice comparison...although, being at the beginning I still do not
understand/see it as a sacrifice, but can feel it is liberating.

I suppose I think that the expenditure of time, resources, concentration and
effort constitute said sacrifice of knowledge as new broader knowledge
supplants older limited knowledge.


As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint:
it is close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

:-)

Well I do think the meta system is the realms of brahma-loka, and that is
split into rupa and arupa. Please let us know your thoughts on this
speculation when you find #new! :-)

Hare hare and Merry Christmas,

Haribol and Happy New Year!

Dhiyo yo nah prachodayat!

---
But those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My
transcendental form—to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they
have.


--
As a lamp in a windless place does not waver, so the transcendentalist,
whose mind is controlled, remains always steady in his meditation on the
transcendent self.

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

You know Ben, another option is to shun and ostracize me. Those be well 
oiled options. Truth.


On 12/27/2015 12:01 PM, Robert Withers wrote:
Sure Ben, I could. My apologies if the paradigm of spirituality 
bothers you but it is a perfectly legitimate source of analogy AND 
interactive fiction, having just been exposed to what that is. In 
addition I am connecting this to an educational process and picture of 
some unique areas of Pharo. I don't seem to have a problem nor am I 
breaking any "rules" I am aware of unless you have dominion, agency 
and possession to be establishing such a rule at this time. If so, I 
will desist; otherwise I will continue to mine the ancient sources of 
psychology and sociology for application to the best damn little 
programming environment every other language fails to emulate.


Once again, my apologies this upsets you.

Sincerely,
Robert

On 12/27/2015 11:33 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

Hi Robert,

I'm glad your found someone on the list to connect to on a spiritual 
level,

but could you please keep your public posts to technical matters,
(plus keep signatures short and trim old signatures from quoted
responses - which unfortunately threaded email clients like gmail
often hide)

cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 2:15 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

I am not quite sure where arupa is (without form), actually. I have 
always
thought of it as namarupa (name and form) and never before as arupa. 
The VM
is what deals with form/rupa and binds the names/nama of the image 
together,

through dynamic lookup, versus static lookup. Alive & dead.

I've never thought about the arupa of Pharo, yet I was thinking it 
was the

meta layers, where everything has the same amorphic form.

Perhaps the analogy starts to fall apart. My apologies...I'll try for
#random. :)

nameste,
robert


--
There are five kinds of coloring (kleshas):
1) forgetting, or ignorance about the true nature of things (avidya),
2) I-ness, individuality, or egoism (asmita),
3) attachment or addiction to mental impressions or objects (raga),
4) aversion to thought patterns or objects (dvesha), and
5) love of these as being life itself, as well as fear of their loss as
being death.
(avidya asmita raga dvesha abhinivesha pancha klesha)


On 12/27/2015 09:44 AM, Robert Withers wrote:

I was thinking about this on my drive home, more, and I think that I 
was
jumping the duck. #new is related to named classes, therefore in the 
analogy
of brahma-loka, this is more of a rupa level behavior. The arupa 
level is
there (and there is a #new at that level) but it deals with things 
that have

no form, but by name only (#allInstancesDo:).

cheers,
robert

---

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me.
Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer
of all living entities and although I am everywhere, I am
not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the
very source of creation.




On 12/26/2015 08:50 PM, Robert Withers wrote:

On Dec 26, 2015, at 2:26 AM, Saša Janiška <g...@atmarama.com> wrote:

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 15:59 -0500, Robert Withers wrote:

Hello Robert,

Good day Saša,

Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge
sacrifice eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and
a good thing too.

Nice comparison...although, being at the beginning I still do not
understand/see it as a sacrifice, but can feel it is liberating.

I suppose I think that the expenditure of time, resources, 
concentration and

effort constitute said sacrifice of knowledge as new broader knowledge
supplants older limited knowledge.


As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint:
it is close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

:-)

Well I do think the meta system is the realms of brahma-loka, and 
that is

split into rupa and arupa. Please let us know your thoughts on this
speculation when you find #new! :-)

Hare hare and Merry Christmas,

Haribol and Happy New Year!

Dhiyo yo nah prachodayat!

---
But those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating 
on My
transcendental form—to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve 
what they

have.


--
As a lamp in a windless place does not waver, so the transcendentalist,
whose mind is controlled, remains always steady in his meditation on 
the

transcendent self.

[Pharo-users] Meta-models (Re: Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar))

[Robert Withers]

On 12/27/2015 01:50 PM, Johan Fabry wrote:
On Dec 27, 2015, at 15:18, Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com 
<mailto:robert.w.with...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Alright, I ask you all.  Which meta-model is acceptable for practical 
work in my stack? I need a meta-model to describe it, or rahter 
anyone should be able to skin the meta-model they want and that makes 
most sense. These consciousness meta-models, or meta-memes, from 
religious tradition are well-defined models.


I have no opinion on this, this is a design question for your work, 
and not straightforwardly related to Pharo itself. In my opinion and 
apparently in the opinion of others as well, this is not a topic for 
this mailing list. Sending multiple mails to the list about it can be 
considered bad netiquette.


I find it very unfortunate you sidestepped my question with a claim of 
not only no opinion, but that it has no place on this list. Intellectual 
dishonesty is a rather poor maneuver for one who claims to be of an 
enlightened tribe. I object on the basis of principle.


So, I would extend you another opportunity, which are valid meta-models? 
Let's talk about meta-memes and meta-models within Pharo's creative 
space. Shall it be the military analogy, then? How unfortunate, I'd wish 
an alternative.


Regards,

--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar)

[Robert Withers]

Here's the thing that gets my goat: I had already acknowledged it was 
enough for the list and was signing off further comment when Ben decided 
he really needed to add his two cents. It is unfortunate he did not 
spend his change in a positive manner but wished to be negative and 
critical.


I was unwilling to let that go by as an implicit restriction on the 
substance of my posting, into the future. ...and the thread is twice as 
long. Not my doing.  Some things must be challenged.


Do you know what I mean, then? Just say no to intellectual coercion.

robert

On 12/27/2015 11:33 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

Hi Robert,

I'm glad your found someone on the list to connect to on a spiritual level,
but could you please keep your public posts to technical matters,
(plus keep signatures short and trim old signatures from quoted
responses - which unfortunately threaded email clients like gmail
often hide)

cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 2:15 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

*My apologies...I'll try for #random. :)*

nameste,
robert


--
There are five kinds of coloring (kleshas):
1) forgetting, or ignorance about the true nature of things (avidya),
2) I-ness, individuality, or egoism (asmita),
3) attachment or addiction to mental impressions or objects (raga),
4) aversion to thought patterns or objects (dvesha), and
5) love of these as being life itself, as well as fear of their loss as
being death.
(avidya asmita raga dvesha abhinivesha pancha klesha)


On 12/27/2015 09:44 AM, Robert Withers wrote:

I was thinking about this on my drive home, more, and I think that I was
jumping the duck. #new is related to named classes, therefore in the analogy
of brahma-loka, this is more of a rupa level behavior. The arupa level is
there (and there is a #new at that level) but it deals with things that have
no form, but by name only (#allInstancesDo:).

cheers,
robert

---

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me.
Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer
of all living entities and although I am everywhere, I am
not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the
very source of creation.




On 12/26/2015 08:50 PM, Robert Withers wrote:

On Dec 26, 2015, at 2:26 AM, Saša Janiška <g...@atmarama.com> wrote:

On Pet, 2015-12-25 at 15:59 -0500, Robert Withers wrote:

Hello Robert,

Good day Saša,

Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge
sacrifice eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and
a good thing too.

Nice comparison...although, being at the beginning I still do not
understand/see it as a sacrifice, but can feel it is liberating.

I suppose I think that the expenditure of time, resources, concentration and
effort constitute said sacrifice of knowledge as new broader knowledge
supplants older limited knowledge.


As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint:
it is close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

:-)

Well I do think the meta system is the realms of brahma-loka, and that is
split into rupa and arupa. Please let us know your thoughts on this
speculation when you find #new! :-)

Hare hare and Merry Christmas,

Haribol and Happy New Year!

Dhiyo yo nah prachodayat!

---
But those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My
transcendental form—to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they
have.


--
As a lamp in a windless place does not waver, so the transcendentalist,
whose mind is controlled, remains always steady in his meditation on the
transcendent self.









--
Robert
.  ..   ...^,^

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

[Robert Withers]

> On Dec 25, 2015, at 1:58 PM, Saša Janiška  wrote:
> -- 
> As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the 
> fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.

---
The knowledge sacrifice is superior 
To any material sacrifice, O Arjuna. 
Because, all actions in their entirety 
Culminate in knowledge.
---

> Dear Saša,

Welcome to Pharo!  I view use of Pharo (squeak) as a knowledge sacrifice 
eliminating bondage to Karma. This is not the mainstream and a good thing too.  

As an example, where is the root implementation of #new defined? Hint: it is 
close to Pharo's arupa-brahma-loka, the highest planes. ;)

Hare hare and Merry Christmas,
Robert


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Pharo Consortium Sponsored Development Effort

[Robert Withers]

Could you guys look at how to fix mouse clicks so the select first time 
and stay selected. I have noticed some delay and clicks don't do whjat I 
expect smoothly. I do not know if others know what I am talking about.


Snyways, it sounds like great fun, hopefully one happenss near me, 
either here or on the road.


Thanks!
robert

On 12/19/2015 08:23 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

Dear all,

I am tremendously happy to announce you that Pharo Consortium will 
sponsor yet another development effort. In this particular case, it's 
my honor to carry on such an effort and I will be developing and 
improving a few things and ideas. All the contract and paperwork has 
already been done so it's time to start working.


Regarding the developments itself, we discussed about these topics:

1) Experiment with a simpler yet more limited OSProcess alternative to 
execute OS commands.
2) Improving FileSystem in order to better deal with some POSIX stuff 
like symbolic links, unix file permissions, etc etc.


I have already started with 1). OSProcess is super complete and it 
involves some packages (OSProcess / CommandShell) as well as some VM 
plugins (OSProcessPlugin, AIOPlugin). OSProcess provides lots of 
features (like forking the running image) but we would like to focus 
only in executing OS commands. In addition, OSProcess dates from quite 
some years ago when many of the current infrastructure features did 
not exist yet.


So the idea is to think a simpler alternative to execute OS commands, 
using new features such as threaded FFI (for example, for reading 
async from pipes), pinned objects, etc. We want to use FFI as much as 
possible rather than VM plugins.


From the image side, we are thinking about an API which would look 
like a builder-like API (FileSystem, XStream, etc).


We have been discussing with David Lewis (OSProcess author) as well as 
with Eliot Miranda, Esteban Lorenzano, Damien Pollet, Stephane 
Ducasse, etc in order to agree in a project that would be worth doing 
(otherwise we would continue using existing tools). And they have all 
been very kind with me providing positive discussions.


I will soon do a survey to measure the most common use cases of 
OSProcess and related tools.


If you have any thought, question, feedback, or whatever, please let 
us know.


Finally, note that I will be doing this project together with another 
client's project (Quuve) and my life does not have much free time 
these days...so please be patient!!!


Best,

--
Mariano
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com


--
. .. .. ^,^ robert

Re: [Pharo-users] [squeak-dev] Name change: Mushroom ( was Re: evolutions of squeakelib & crypto)

[Robert Withers]

Ah ha!!! Thank you...how about CryptOCeps? ;)

On 12/18/2015 10:22 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

Hi,

On the names side, I would advice some kind of unique combination, for 
example "Jupyter notebook",  works fine to find particularly the 
project this community is trying to build. In my own case, I spend a 
lot of time thinking in names and I discuss them with friends with a 
drink or a meal. Despite of not having a strong web presence in the 
sense of continuous updates in the web pages of my projects (my main 
web page is still under construction!) they position relatively well 
on google and DDG engines:


[1] https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=es=grafoscopio (5th link)
[2] https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=es=mutabit (1st link)
[3] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mutabit=ffsb (1st link)
[4] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=grafoscopio=ffsb (2nd link)

It didn't happen overnight but was a fluid organic process. So may be 
"Mushroom crypto" or "Risotto crypto" could be important descriptors 
in the main web presence sites of your projects (BTW, I can't find the 
repos and GitHub answers with 404).


Cheers,

Offray


On 07/12/15 17:57, Robert Withers wrote:
Ben, Huw, Todd and Sven, thank you all for your feedback!  I suppose 
I could call the project "CryptOCaps" but for some reason I glommed 
onto mushroom as the name. Not grandiose and it is somewhat 
descriptive...a network of secure sessions, each one a mushroom. Ceps 
are highly valued. We can tag it for the catalog.


For sure, we have Seaside, Morphic, Nebraska, Fuel, Alien, Cog, 
Monticello and that's just the squeak side of unusual naming of 
projects. I hope that "mushroom" gains a wide reputation as a solid, 
reliable, secure and performant session layer under the CryptOCaps 
presentation...I am thinking of splitting the secure session layer 
from the ocaps presentation layer, but this would require another 
name choice, so I hesitate...perhaps "Risotto"? What are your thoughts?


Best,
Robert

On 12/07/2015 10:38 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

I like it, but it seems you missed my point :)
mushroom --> 117,000,000 is two orders of magnitude more hidden.
Anyway, maybe I overplay its significance.
cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:
I renamed the project to Mushroom and I also dumped the encoding 
work to

focus on shutdown, optimization and serialization. Here's the wiki:
https://github.com/SqueakCryptographySquad/Mushroom/wiki

thanks,Robert


On 12/06/2015 01:42 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/05/2015 09:24 PM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:
Now I think you are right on with your observation. 
Additionally, the

number
of dialects could increase further with Fuel serialization, 
just port

SecureSession and bits.

Alright, I came up with a name and it may border on the 
egregious ...

presenting ...

"Maelstrom"
Great sounding name.  However some general advice for the 
community,
since I see a lot of great sounding project names drowned out in 
the
noise of our web-search-centric universe.  A litmus test for 
project
naming is using google search to find which return low search 
results.
Today, its more important to be unique than any other attribute 
of a

name.  So in general, *dictionary* english words are not the best.
One technique is to intentionally mispell the word you like.  
Here are
some comparative examples (note, the surrounding quotes are 
required

to avoid google trying to be helpful and correct the spelling)...

"maelstrom"--> 7,480,000
"maelstroom"  --> 6,200
"maelstrum"--> 2,280
"maelstruum"  --> 7

Lots of interesting other techniques can be found by searching on:
techniques to generate brand names or domain names.

cheers -ben


I would be happy to change the names to something more unique, 
though it

may
take a few. Are you suggesting "maelstruum"?

cheers,
Robert



*Suggesting* yes, but the choice is yours ;)  You need to own it.

I think maelstruum is certainly memorable with the double "u", but
maybe jarring next the the "m".  I'm inclined to maelstroom, since I
associate it with "zoom".  I wouldn't necessarily go for the absolute
lowest results.  I have an entirely unsubstantiated belief that
anything less than 10,000 gives a reasonable chance to compete once a
user's browsing history is taken into account.  Finally you need to
check existing results don't return something abhorrent (I didn't do
this).

I'd encourage to play around testing on google search. Its quick and
easy to generate and test alternatives. I've added a few more below.
"maelstra" --> 3,560
"maelstram" --> 504
"maelstrim" --> 1200
"maelstroon" --> 58
"maelstroomi" --> 4

btw, I wouldn't swap the order of the "ae" since that would be
susceptible to real typing errors.

cheers -ben












--
. .. .. ^,^ robert

Re: [Pharo-users] [squeak-dev] Name change: Mushroom ( was Re: evolutions of squeakelib & crypto)

[Robert Withers]

The Ode to CryptoCeps:

Bouncer: "No, I'm sorry. This is a restricted area..." *checks around in 
case there's a problem*


Me: " 'cep I got this..." *hands over teensie tiny tasty little mushoom*

Note to self: 'did I eat one of those???' *can't seem to recall the 
particular moment. Oh@*


Community: *looking sideways at each other* "What the hell is a mushoom?"


Thank You! so much.


On 12/18/2015 10:27 PM, Robert Withers wrote:

Ah ha!!! Thank you...how about CryptOCeps? ;)

On 12/18/2015 10:22 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

Hi,

On the names side, I would advice some kind of unique combination, 
for example "Jupyter notebook",  works fine to find particularly the 
project this community is trying to build. In my own case, I spend a 
lot of time thinking in names and I discuss them with friends with a 
drink or a meal. Despite of not having a strong web presence in the 
sense of continuous updates in the web pages of my projects (my main 
web page is still under construction!) they position relatively well 
on google and DDG engines:


[1] https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=es=grafoscopio (5th link)
[2] https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=es=mutabit (1st link)
[3] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mutabit=ffsb (1st link)
[4] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=grafoscopio=ffsb (2nd link)

It didn't happen overnight but was a fluid organic process. So may be 
"Mushroom crypto" or "Risotto crypto" could be important descriptors 
in the main web presence sites of your projects (BTW, I can't find 
the repos and GitHub answers with 404).


Cheers,

Offray


On 07/12/15 17:57, Robert Withers wrote:
Ben, Huw, Todd and Sven, thank you all for your feedback!  I suppose 
I could call the project "CryptOCaps" but for some reason I glommed 
onto mushroom as the name. Not grandiose and it is somewhat 
descriptive...a network of secure sessions, each one a mushroom. 
Ceps are highly valued. We can tag it for the catalog.


For sure, we have Seaside, Morphic, Nebraska, Fuel, Alien, Cog, 
Monticello and that's just the squeak side of unusual naming of 
projects. I hope that "mushroom" gains a wide reputation as a solid, 
reliable, secure and performant session layer under the CryptOCaps 
presentation...I am thinking of splitting the secure session layer 
from the ocaps presentation layer, but this would require another 
name choice, so I hesitate...perhaps "Risotto"? What are your thoughts?


Best,
Robert

On 12/07/2015 10:38 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

I like it, but it seems you missed my point :)
mushroom --> 117,000,000 is two orders of magnitude more hidden.
Anyway, maybe I overplay its significance.
cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:
I renamed the project to Mushroom and I also dumped the encoding 
work to

focus on shutdown, optimization and serialization. Here's the wiki:
https://github.com/SqueakCryptographySquad/Mushroom/wiki

thanks,Robert


On 12/06/2015 01:42 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/05/2015 09:24 PM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:
Now I think you are right on with your observation. 
Additionally, the

number
of dialects could increase further with Fuel serialization, 
just port

SecureSession and bits.

Alright, I came up with a name and it may border on the 
egregious ...

presenting ...

"Maelstrom"
Great sounding name.  However some general advice for the 
community,
since I see a lot of great sounding project names drowned out 
in the
noise of our web-search-centric universe.  A litmus test for 
project
naming is using google search to find which return low search 
results.
Today, its more important to be unique than any other attribute 
of a

name.  So in general, *dictionary* english words are not the best.
One technique is to intentionally mispell the word you like.  
Here are
some comparative examples (note, the surrounding quotes are 
required

to avoid google trying to be helpful and correct the spelling)...

"maelstrom"--> 7,480,000
"maelstroom"  --> 6,200
"maelstrum"--> 2,280
"maelstruum"  --> 7

Lots of interesting other techniques can be found by searching on:
techniques to generate brand names or domain names.

cheers -ben


I would be happy to change the names to something more unique, 
though it

may
take a few. Are you suggesting "maelstruum"?

cheers,
Robert



*Suggesting* yes, but the choice is yours ;)  You need to own it.

I think maelstruum is certainly memorable with the double "u", but
maybe jarring next the the "m".  I'm inclined to maelstroom, since I
associate it with "zoom".  I wouldn't necessarily go for the 
absolute

lowest results.  I 

Re: [Pharo-users] [squeak-dev] Name change: Mushroom ( was Re: evolutions of squeakelib & crypto)

[Robert Withers]

I just tried, looking for plugins you know. I get so impatient to get 
all this to work. It takes lots of effrort. Thanks for the name check, 
let's go for it!


robert


On 12/18/2015 11:45 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

At list it doesn't have a lot of hits:

https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=es=CryptoCeps#hl=es=CryptoCeps=1 



I think that the best thing is to come by the slack channel and talk 
it in #random (now I'm almost slept). Trying a new name has a lot of 
bouncing ideas in my experience, so real time communication is better 
that mailing list (that's why I talk about it with friends over meal 
or drinks).


Cheers,

Offray

On 18/12/15 22:37, Robert Withers wrote:

The Ode to CryptoCeps:

Bouncer: "No, I'm sorry. This is a restricted area..." *checks around 
in case there's a problem*


Me: " 'cep I got this..." *hands over teensie tiny tasty little mushoom*

Note to self: 'did I eat one of those???' *can't seem to recall the 
particular moment. Oh@*


Community: *looking sideways at each other* "What the hell is a 
mushoom?"



Thank You! so much.


On 12/18/2015 10:27 PM, Robert Withers wrote:

Ah ha!!! Thank you...how about CryptOCeps? ;)

On 12/18/2015 10:22 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

Hi,

On the names side, I would advice some kind of unique combination, 
for example "Jupyter notebook",  works fine to find particularly 
the project this community is trying to build. In my own case, I 
spend a lot of time thinking in names and I discuss them with 
friends with a drink or a meal. Despite of not having a strong web 
presence in the sense of continuous updates in the web pages of my 
projects (my main web page is still under construction!) they 
position relatively well on google and DDG engines:


[1] https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=es=grafoscopio (5th link)
[2] https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=es=mutabit (1st link)
[3] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mutabit=ffsb (1st link)
[4] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=grafoscopio=ffsb (2nd link)

It didn't happen overnight but was a fluid organic process. So may 
be "Mushroom crypto" or "Risotto crypto" could be important 
descriptors in the main web presence sites of your projects (BTW, I 
can't find the repos and GitHub answers with 404).


Cheers,

Offray


On 07/12/15 17:57, Robert Withers wrote:
Ben, Huw, Todd and Sven, thank you all for your feedback!  I 
suppose I could call the project "CryptOCaps" but for some reason 
I glommed onto mushroom as the name. Not grandiose and it is 
somewhat descriptive...a network of secure sessions, each one a 
mushroom. Ceps are highly valued. We can tag it for the catalog.


For sure, we have Seaside, Morphic, Nebraska, Fuel, Alien, Cog, 
Monticello and that's just the squeak side of unusual naming of 
projects. I hope that "mushroom" gains a wide reputation as a 
solid, reliable, secure and performant session layer under the 
CryptOCaps presentation...I am thinking of splitting the secure 
session layer from the ocaps presentation layer, but this would 
require another name choice, so I hesitate...perhaps "Risotto"? 
What are your thoughts?


Best,
Robert

On 12/07/2015 10:38 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

I like it, but it seems you missed my point :)
mushroom --> 117,000,000 is two orders of magnitude more hidden.
Anyway, maybe I overplay its significance.
cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:
I renamed the project to Mushroom and I also dumped the encoding 
work to

focus on shutdown, optimization and serialization. Here's the wiki:
https://github.com/SqueakCryptographySquad/Mushroom/wiki

thanks,Robert


On 12/06/2015 01:42 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/05/2015 09:24 PM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:
Now I think you are right on with your observation. 
Additionally, the

number
of dialects could increase further with Fuel serialization, 
just port

SecureSession and bits.

Alright, I came up with a name and it may border on the 
egregious ...

presenting ...

"Maelstrom"
Great sounding name.  However some general advice for the 
community,
since I see a lot of great sounding project names drowned out 
in the
noise of our web-search-centric universe.  A litmus test for 
project
naming is using google search to find which return low search 
results.
Today, its more important to be unique than any other 
attribute of a
name.  So in general, *dictionary* english words are not the 
best.
One technique is to intentionally mispell the word you like.  
Here are
some comparative examples (note, the surrounding quotes are 
required
to avoid google trying to be helpful and correct the 
spelling)...


"maelstrom"--> 7,480,000
"maelstroo

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Robert Withers]

In the realm of marketing, having a clear objective is key, to unlock 
the artifact. Being a kid about it, to dig deeper into the inspirations 
of otexport LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/lib:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib"hers, ignites 
it.  The kindling, however, must be a positive mental attitude (as 
espoused by bad brains). Critique is great, but allowing emotions to get 
behind being negative, let's it run that way.  What's positive? YOu can 
tell every new person that they add to the integrating capacity of a 
growing modern cloud meta system, with 9 layer stacks and clustered 
graphs of networked actors...real time.


Go for the multi-objective genetic approaches, really and truly. That's 
the best AI.


regards,
robert

On 12/13/2015 08:47 AM, horrido wrote:

Why is this "nonsense"? Are you saying it's not important to make Pharo
applicable to more problem domains? Are you saying that making Pharo useful
to more people in the IT community is a dumb idea?

What am I missing in terms of situational awareness? Clearly, *I am
clueless*, because I don't understand what you're getting at with Wardley
maps.

"Strategy means making choices." Are you suggesting that you've made hard
choices? Whatever those choices are, *the results speak for themselves*. The
IT community at large still ignores Smalltalk. Businesses are looking to
Java and JavaScript and Python and C++ /before/ they ever look to Pharo. I
don't know how you can deny this. I don't know how you can tell me it's
working out well for Pharo.



Stephan Eggermont wrote

On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote:

Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention.

...


Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming
language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.

Oh please, can you stop this nonsense?

If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog
I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us.
Your situational awareness is lacking.
Strategy means making choices.

Stephan





--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866806.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Robert Withers]

That's was it: sanguinity.

On 12/14/2015 12:18 AM, Robert Withers wrote:
I've always thought that squeak should have a set of measured, 
communicated emotional layer, but inverted. Measure a positive number 
that is better when it grows, instead of bad. The system could react 
to that measure, like it's gambling.


That would go in the half-layer of the 9 1/2 layer stack. The half is 
nexxt to the eighth market/cloud layer, below the 9th meta layer. It 
is the control layer. Every flow network needs a control layer in 
control theory.


Pi 2 or zero with some boards would be something.

regards,
robert

On 12/13/2015 11:48 PM, EuanM wrote:

As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on
Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already
run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.".

Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience.  It's about an
order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at
present.

On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis 
<kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.

On Android its still a work in progress but its improving

On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) 
and front

end (browser-javascript-html-css)

So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the 
exception of
Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In 
the dev
list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for 
one year

to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too.

For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already 
posted he/she

can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants.

Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I
created support for python, another dude created support for R 
programming

language who followed a similar approach to mine.

But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other
programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application 
that

happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for
mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to 
make

Android apps and so forth.

Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every 
user of
pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are 
ready to
get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are 
better

coding in other language .

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero
<ajac...@yahoo.es> wrote:

Hello

The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java 
programmers

will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.

The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more
extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The 
advantage is
to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal 
tablets (no

phones nor phablets).

Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero

De: Dimitris Chloupis
Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25
Para: Any question about pharo is welcome
Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based
languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since 
they dont

even make the top 20.

I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM 
and not
only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any 
Java library
out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by 
very far

the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely
alive.

The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested 
about JVM
or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language 
tend to
stick with their own language mainly because both Java and 
Javascript though

both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.

Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is 
barely
active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that 
decides

to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.

And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort

http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort

https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition

I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to 
implement
pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a 
communication
bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python 
code.


Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing 
pharo
with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people 
prefer to

stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.

Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on.

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng 
<horrido.hobb...@gmail.com>

wrote:
According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month 
Java
and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In f

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Robert Withers]

I've always thought that squeak should have a set of measured, 
communicated emotional layer, but inverted. Measure a positive number 
that is better when it grows, instead of bad. The system could react to 
that measure, like it's gambling.


That would go in the half-layer of the 9 1/2 layer stack. The half is 
nexxt to the eighth market/cloud layer, below the 9th meta layer. It is 
the control layer. Every flow network needs a control layer in control 
theory.


Pi 2 or zero with some boards would be something.

regards,
robert

On 12/13/2015 11:48 PM, EuanM wrote:

As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on
Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already
run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.".

Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience.  It's about an
order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at
present.

On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis  wrote:

Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.

On Android its still a work in progress but its improving

On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front
end (browser-javascript-html-css)

So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of
Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev
list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year
to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too.

For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she
can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants.

Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I
created support for python, another dude created support for R programming
language who followed a similar approach to mine.

But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other
programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that
happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for
mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make
Android apps and so forth.

Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of
pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to
get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better
coding in other language .

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero
 wrote:

Hello

The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers
will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.

The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more
extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is
to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no
phones nor phablets).

Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero

De: Dimitris Chloupis
Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25
Para: Any question about pharo is welcome
Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based
languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont
even make the top 20.

I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not
only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library
out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far
the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely
alive.

The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM
or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to
stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though
both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.

Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely
active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides
to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.

And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort

http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort

https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition

I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement
pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication
bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.

Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo
with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to
stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.

Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on.

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng 
wrote:

According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java
and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will
most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both
languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)

It's 

Re: [Pharo-users] [squeak-dev] Name change: Mushroom ( was Re: evolutions of squeakelib & crypto)

[Robert Withers]

Wait. Kafka is a part of Hadoop, now? Getting some Love! There's a good 
match right there. Makes for a very good lambda architecture. They need 
a meta. Hello squeak!!!  Somebody just needs to build a kafka interface 
and a spark callback interface. Get squeak with caching to start 
grinding data, it's right there.


You're right, Phil. Furthermore these names are personable, effective 
marketing and they always have something to do with what they do. Taker 
flume, sqoop, yarn or impala. I'll take the Impala, thank you. It's vintage.


In my case, choosing Mushroom has a reasonable descriptive power when 
considered in light of mobile code budding out all over the grid. It's a 
cloud solution.


Robert

On 12/08/2015 05:10 PM, p...@highoctane.be wrote:

Whoever works with Hadoop tech would find names like:

Hadoop
Spark
Cassandra
HBase
Accumulo
Hive
Pig
Impala
Oozie
YARN
Kafka
Flume
Sqoop
...

Go datascience and you'll get:

R
Shiny
Jupyter
Pandas
Bokeh
D3

And in JS:

Node
Angular
Express

descriptive names? Not at all.

What matters is not the name, it is its description.

And, know what, put a generic name and it will be ungooglable.

Try with Visual Studio Code ...

Pfah, descriptive project names... As if these were descriptive:

Ubuntu 15.10 (Wily Werewolf)
Ubuntu 15.04 (Vivid Vervet)
Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS (Trusty Tahr)
Ubuntu 12.04.5 LTS (Precise Pangolin)

Oh yeah super descriptive names:

Oracle Communications Diameter Signaling Router

Have a clue?  Enjoy, they have a bunch and renamed a few: 
https://www.oracle.com/products/oracle-a-z.html


Want to know? Pay the dues.

Phil



On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:20 PM, Robert Withers 
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.with...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I would need to disagree with you as inquiry is possible by
description, rather than by name, through conversation with those
who don't have to inquire, due to their knowledge [see Meno's
Paradox...]. So, a third possibility exists through communal
association. Do you know Kevin Bacon? ;-)

I've used that language!

On 12/08/2015 04:02 PM, EuanM wrote:

The philosophical issue behind the disutility of project names
like
these is "Meno's Paradox"

On 8 December 2015 at 21:01, EuanM <euan...@gmail.com
<mailto:euan...@gmail.com>> wrote:

"I wish people would choose descriptive names for their
projects" - Todd

I agree.

I went looking for the current state of dbxtalk recently. 
It seemed

to ba apackage designed for my needs - to X[-over] from a
DB to
[small]talk.

I went there and the the page started talking about
"Glorp" and
"Garage".  Neither are mnemonic or meaningful

These projects are just the tip of the iceberg.

Pharo project names have publisher-only project names. The
project
name equivalent of write-only computer languages, like
Brain-F**k.


On 7 December 2015 at 17:52, Todd Blanchard
<tblanch...@mac.com <mailto:tblanch...@mac.com>> wrote:

Sigh.

I wish people would choose descriptive names for their
projects.  I went looking on Smalltalkhub for some
capability and what I found are thousands of packages
with names that mean nothing and no description
entered either.  If you want to make sure nobody ever
uses your code you've just taken a giant step in the
right direction.  But if you hope to make something
lots of people benefit from - nobody is going to look
for "mushroom" when they want crypto capabilities.

Sorry, this has been really bugging me lately.  We, as
a community, do a lousy job of making our code easy to
find.

-Todd Blanchard

On Dec 7, 2015, at 07:38, Ben Coman
<b...@openinworld.com> wrote:

I like it, but it seems you missed my point :)
mushroom --> 117,000,000 is two orders of
magnitude more hidden.
Anyway, maybe I overplay its significance.
    cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com
<mailto:robert.w.with...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I renamed the project to Mushroom and I also
dumped the encoding work to
focus on shutdown, optimization and
serialization. Here's the wiki:
https://github.com/SqueakCryptographySquad

Re: [Pharo-users] [squeak-dev] Name change: Mushroom ( was Re: evolutions of squeakelib & crypto)

[Robert Withers]

Well, it seems I've more to say though I wouldn't want to test your 
patience . If folks have NO idea what they want, then Meno's Paradox 
would apply. People tend to have a descriptive ability, or a gut feeling 
at the least. "It kinda needs to be a camera that like hovers to longer 
observation times can be maintained" enter the quadcopter.


So I thought to addd the third possibility, which is partial descriptive 
knowledge, communal connectivity, expert availability/receptivity, and 
descriptive inquiry.


Best,
Robert

On 12/08/2015 04:20 PM, Robert Withers wrote:
I would need to disagree with you as inquiry is possible by 
description, rather than by name, through conversation with those who 
don't have to inquire, due to their knowledge [see Meno's Paradox...]. 
So, a third possibility exists through communal association. Do you 
know Kevin Bacon? ;-)


I've used that language!

On 12/08/2015 04:02 PM, EuanM wrote:

The philosophical issue behind the disutility of project names like
these is "Meno's Paradox"

On 8 December 2015 at 21:01, EuanM <euan...@gmail.com> wrote:
"I wish people would choose descriptive names for their projects" - 
Todd


I agree.

I went looking for the current state of dbxtalk recently.  It seemed
to ba apackage designed for my needs - to X[-over] from a DB to
[small]talk.

I went there and the the page started talking about "Glorp" and
"Garage".  Neither are mnemonic or meaningful

These projects are just the tip of the iceberg.

Pharo project names have publisher-only project names.  The project
name equivalent of write-only computer languages, like Brain-F**k.


On 7 December 2015 at 17:52, Todd Blanchard <tblanch...@mac.com> wrote:

Sigh.

I wish people would choose descriptive names for their projects.  I 
went looking on Smalltalkhub for some capability and what I found 
are thousands of packages with names that mean nothing and no 
description entered either. If you want to make sure nobody ever 
uses your code you've just taken a giant step in the right 
direction.  But if you hope to make something lots of people 
benefit from - nobody is going to look for "mushroom" when they 
want crypto capabilities.


Sorry, this has been really bugging me lately.  We, as a community, 
do a lousy job of making our code easy to find.


-Todd Blanchard


On Dec 7, 2015, at 07:38, Ben Coman <b...@openinworld.com> wrote:

I like it, but it seems you missed my point :)
mushroom --> 117,000,000 is two orders of magnitude more hidden.
Anyway, maybe I overplay its significance.
cheers -ben

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:
I renamed the project to Mushroom and I also dumped the encoding 
work to

focus on shutdown, optimization and serialization. Here's the wiki:
https://github.com/SqueakCryptographySquad/Mushroom/wiki

thanks,Robert


On 12/06/2015 01:42 AM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/05/2015 09:24 PM, Ben Coman wrote:

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Robert Withers
<robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:
Now I think you are right on with your observation. 
Additionally, the

number
of dialects could increase further with Fuel serialization, 
just port

SecureSession and bits.

Alright, I came up with a name and it may border on the 
egregious ...

presenting ...

"Maelstrom"
Great sounding name.  However some general advice for the 
community,
since I see a lot of great sounding project names drowned out 
in the
noise of our web-search-centric universe.  A litmus test for 
project
naming is using google search to find which return low search 
results.
Today, its more important to be unique than any other 
attribute of a
name.  So in general, *dictionary* english words are not the 
best.
One technique is to intentionally mispell the word you like.  
Here are
some comparative examples (note, the surrounding quotes are 
required

to avoid google trying to be helpful and correct the spelling)...

"maelstrom"--> 7,480,000
"maelstroom"  --> 6,200
"maelstrum"--> 2,280
"maelstruum"  --> 7

Lots of interesting other techniques can be found by searching 
on:

techniques to generate brand names or domain names.

cheers -ben


I would be happy to change the names to something more unique, 
though it

may
take a few. Are you suggesting "maelstruum"?

cheers,
Robert



*Suggesting* yes, but the choice is yours ;)  You need to own it.

I think maelstruum is certainly memorable with the double "u", but
maybe jarring next the the "m".  I'm inclined to maelstroom, 
since I
associate it with "zoom".  I wouldn't necessarily go for the 
absolute

lowest results.  I have an entirely unsubstantiated belief that
anything less than 10,000 gives a reasonable chance to compete 

Re: [Pharo-users] How can we verify that a daemon is listening on a TCP socket

[Robert Withers]

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have netstat, ifconfig, route, traceroute, 
top and other system/networking utilities in Squeak/Pharo. I can see a 
use for manipulating the routing tables from inside our wonderful world.


bonne soirée,
Robert

On 12/05/2015 11:54 AM, stepharo wrote:

Et voilà ;-)

Avec MongoTalk :

server := Mongo default.
[ server open ] on: ConnectionTimedOut do: [ :e | self error: 'local 
mongo server is not running' ].

server isOpen

Avec des sockets uniquement :

[ stream := SocketStream openConnectionToHostNamed: 'localhost' port: 
27017 ]

on: ConnectionTimedOut
do: [ :e | self error: 'local mongo server is not running' ].
stream


Luc





Le 4/12/15 16:07, stepharo a écrit :

Hi guys

I would like to know if a daemon (mongo) is listening on a given TCP 
socket?


Stef

Re: [Pharo-users] How can we verify that a daemon is listening on a TCP socket

[Robert Withers]

> netstat -a | grep LISTEN | grep 

that should get you there.

Robert

On 12/04/2015 10:07 AM, stepharo wrote:

Hi guys

I would like to know if a daemon (mongo) is listening on a given TCP 
socket?


Stef

Re: [Pharo-users] evolutions of squeakelib & crypto (Reed Solomon)

[Robert Withers]

I use squeak 5.0 and would want the Fuel support to customize for wire 
serializations and substitutions, such that Squeak and Pharo could talk 
to each other, and all other Fuel environments. The Fuel changes I made 
are in the Pharo port of SqueakElib in the 
SqueakElib-CapTP-Serialization category and consist of a Decoder, 
Materializer and a Materialization.


Robert

On 12/04/2015 09:35 AM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:

which squeak version?
of what?

On 04 Dec 2015, at 12:15, Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com 
<mailto:robert.w.with...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I just realized that the squeak version uses ReferenceStream while 
the Pharo version uses Fuel, so the binary serializations are 
different and they won't speak to each other. Any chance that Fuel is 
ported to Squeak?


Regards,
Robert

On 12/04/2015 06:11 AM, Robert Withers wrote:
I am unable to import these files into SqueakSource, so it may be 
best done from inside Pharo with Monticello. Here are working Crypto 
and SqueakElib in Pharo, prior to SecureSession refactoring and Reed 
Solomon. I include the correct version of LayeredProtocol.


Regards,
Robert


On 12/04/2015 05:47 AM, Robert Withers wrote:

Best Regards

http://www.squeaksource.com/Cryptography.html
http://www.squeaksource.com/squeakelib.html


On 12/04/2015 05:44 AM, Robert Withers wrote:
After my password reset on squeaksource, I committed to both 
Cryptography and SqueakElib, project links below.


In the case of Cryptography, I had a version ported to Pharo ... I 
will organize Pharo ports of both after Reed Solomon is stable, 
and announce them to the Pharo list. This way both environments 
can be supported through this one repository.


Robert

On 12/04/2015 04:35 AM, Stephan Eggermont wrote:

On 03-12-15 23:06, Robert Withers wrote:
Are any of these used by both squeak and Pharo? That would be 
the right

move I think. I will ask about getting my password reset for
squeaksource, since that is where the old code resides.


All of them. Mostly timing of project start/high activity and who 
are
maintaining it decided on platforms. There was a time when 
squeaksource was not so stable and then many projects migrated, 
and I currently hear least about stability issues from ss3, but 
the load on smalltalkhub is much higher, I assume, as that is 
used for the pharo ci.


In the not so far future Pharo is likely to move to a git based 
infrastructure, using libgit2. Early adopters are already using it.

I haven't heard the squeak ideas about that.

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] evolutions of squeakelib & crypto (Reed Solomon)

[Robert Withers]

Hi Stef,

Yes, my bailing on a more standard squeak project distribution solution is due 
to a few factors...

1 - environment confusion between Pharo and Squeak. I choose squeak due it is 
the native VMMaker and vm Dev environment.
2 - in squeak, the Cryptography and SqueakSource projects are inaccessible to 
me, as I can't reset my access.
3 - I haven't figured out next-gen git-based solutions. Prefer 1 file per class 
git mgmt but whatever. MCZs in git's fine but I chose to limit admin tasks and 
drive some actual coding in my time mgmt.

I think these cover my choices. I do like dropbox cloud storage lots.

What is the recommended squeak environmental solution? Is it a SqueakSource 
project? Which MCZ storage solution would be best?  Thank you.

---
robert

> On Dec 3, 2015, at 3:10 AM, stepharo <steph...@free.fr> wrote:
> 
> Hi robert
> 
> thanks but I do not get why you use dropbox and not a project on smalltalkhub?
> 
> Stef
> 
> 
> Le 1/12/15 17:53, Robert Withers a écrit :
>> Pharo Pholks,
>> 
>> Is the spirit of #GivingTuesday, I am publishing my secure session code in 
>> progress. Some changes to pharo's internals will allow this there, though I 
>> am currently doing my work in Squeak.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Robert
>> 
>> 
>>  Forwarded Message 
>> Subject: Re: evolutions of squeakelib & crypto (Reed Solomon)
>> Date:Tue, 1 Dec 2015 11:44:03 -0500
>> From:Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com>
>> To:  squeak-...@lists.squeakfoundation.org, Discussion of E and other 
>> capability languages <e-l...@mail.eros-os.org>
>> 
>> Here is a newer version (201) with a protocol change to remove all 
>> tcpIds from the rendezvous.
>> 
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7mgfglwu3e4bf4j/SqueakElib-rww.201.mcz?dl=0
>> 
>> - Robert
>> 
>> On 12/01/2015 07:37 AM, Robert Withers wrote:
>> > This version of the Cryptography package has beginnings of ReedSolomon 
>> > encoding.
>> >
>> > The rendezvous is separated into an OperationProtocol and a 
>> > StartupProtocol and the message pipeline of the session layer of 
>> > SqueakElib has been completely rewritten and LayeredProtocols have 
>> > been folded in. Please look at ElibVatTPDataTestCase for an example.
>> >
>> > Cryptography: 
>> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/z9dux2goimej79e/Cryptography-rww.40.mcz?dl=0
>> > SqueakElib: 
>> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/5yvkl3df89uyjnh/SqueakElib-rww.200.mcz?dl=0
>> >
>> > In the spirit of #GivingTuesday,
>> > Robert
>> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] evolutions of squeakelib & crypto (Reed Solomon)

[Robert Withers]

On 12/03/2015 06:30 AM, Stephan Eggermont wrote:

On 03-12-15 09:34, Robert Withers wrote:

Hi Stef,

Yes, my bailing on a more standard squeak project distribution solution
is due to a few factors...

1 - environment confusion between Pharo and Squeak. I choose squeak due
it is the native VMMaker and vm Dev environment.
2 - in squeak, the Cryptography and SqueakSource projects are
inaccessible to me, as I can't reset my access.
3 - I haven't figured out next-gen git-based solutions. Prefer 1 file
per class git mgmt but whatever. MCZs in git's fine but I chose to limit
admin tasks and drive some actual coding in my time mgmt.

I think these cover my choices. I do like dropbox cloud storage lots.

What is the recommended squeak environmental solution? Is it a
SqueakSource project? Which MCZ storage solution would be best? Thank 
you.


Hi Robert,

We do not have a way to incorporate dropbox storage into our 
continuous integration process (and AFAIK don't currently plan to add 
it). We strongly prefer getting code in a way that can be handled 
automatically. Please use one of the supported platforms:

- squeaksource
- ss3
- smalltalkhub
By asking in the squeak mailing list you should be able to have your 
access reset. Alternatively, you can create an account on ss3 or 
smalltalkhub.




Are any of these used by both squeak and Pharo? That would be the right 
move I think. I will ask about getting my password reset for 
squeaksource, since that is where the old code resides.


- Robert



Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] Very sad day for the world

[Robert Withers]

It is so very sad. Sad that it was done and sad that it can be done. 
There is no real way to stop them or it would end our open societies. 
They must decide not to kill innocent people. The only ones who can get 
them to decide that is complete, global and total condemnation from the 
Ummah. Unfortunately, there are high numbers of Imams who issue Fatwas 
in support. And the majority of the Ummah are too scared to object. For 
instance, a top Jordanian Salafi Sheikh stated it was permissible to 
kill Israeli women and children. Oh, really?


If we can't trust Imams to promote non-violence and the Ummah is 
required to step up, it all rests on the Mu'minoon picking up weapons 
against these Quranic terrorists and actively sending these Munafiqoon 
to Jahannam.


Peace to Paris,
Robert

On 11/15/2015 04:23 AM, abdelghani ALIDRA wrote:


Indeed, This is a very sad day.
I sincerly sympathize with people of France.
In Algeria, we have known such barbarian actions in the 90's (and much 
more unfortunately, may you be preserved)
But today we got rid of it. And I hope France will do too. In fact, I 
am quite sure it will.


I finaly would like to say that those sick people do not represent us.
They are stupid ignorants and we muslims, have been their first 
victims in Algeria, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan ... and 
unfortunately, as Stef said, their evil will expand everywhere if 
nothing is done to stop them.




Abdelghani


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 08:13:32 +0100
From: stepharo >
To: Pharo Development List , Any question
about pharo is welcome 
Subject: [Pharo-users] Democracy attacked...
Message-ID: <5646df1c.5030...@free.fr >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Hi guys

I just want to let you that France got attacked by kamizazes probably
from these fanatics
ruining syria and we are touched. 120 people killed: they attacked a
rock concert and
restaurants in the street in Paris. They killed people randomly and as
birds.
I hope that such attacks will not happen in your country but if we do
not do anything
I doubt it will not expand.

And sadly this is just the beginning because this is a terrible war in
fact. Democracy and
our model are threatened and I hope our countries will realize that we
have to react.

Stef





--

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 08:21:26 +0100
From: stepharo >
To: Any question about pharo is welcome 
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Very sad day for the world
Message-ID: <5646e0f6.8060...@free.fr >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Thanks I just woke up and heard these terrible news.
To me when a human believes that another one is not worth more than a
dog and we can kill it for free, we cannot
expect much.

I really hope that people will not vote for extreme right because it
would be terrible in addition.
Now I hope that our goverment will have a really strong reaction.
And the problem with democracy is that it is mild in general but in fact
this is a war.
When you imagine that in France an imam is able to say that if kids
listen music they will go to hell.


I'm really happy that France got in africa fighting against people that
can destroy the oldest libraries
because else we would have even more trouble because we are at two hours
from algeria, marocco.
Now we pay the price and it will continue.

Stef

Le 14/11/15 06:08, Hern?n Morales Durand a ?crit :
> Cannot believe what happened in Paris. I am really sad and frightened
> about the future of human kind.
>
> Love and strength to the people in Paris and all of France.
>
> Hern?n
>

Re: [Pharo-users] VM crash on Ubuntu 14.04

[Robert Withers]

Posting to Pharos-dev or Vm Dev may find you more assistance.

My suggestions would be: a) upgrade to Pharo 5 and b) run in gdb so we all can 
be better informed about the issue you are seeing. Is PhaROS doing low level 
calls?

---
robert

> On Oct 24, 2015, at 3:32 PM, Johan Fabry  wrote:
> 
> 
> Ben, thanks for replying but since no VM guys are following up on this, 
> apparently, it does not make much sense for me to go this way.
> 
> Guys, am I to assume there is not help for me on this topic?
> 
>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:03, Ben Coman  wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Johan Fabry  wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I am having some unpleasant experiences on Ubuntu 14.04 (experimenting with 
>>> Live Robot Programming on PhaROS). The VM crashes after a random amount of 
>>> time (< 25 minutes), with no clear sequence of steps on how to reproduce 
>>> the crash. I am using Pharo 4 (Pharo 40622 as installed by PhaROS) + 
>>> Roassal which required an install of libcairo2:i386 . VM version details 
>>> below.
>>> 
>>> There is no printout on stdout, and the debug.log does not contain recent 
>>> entries (timestamp is always some minutes before the actual crash happens).
>>> 
>>> Is this a known problem? If so, how can I fix it, and if not how can I 
>>> provide more debugging info?
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance!
>> 
>> I'm not much help since I haven't done these myself, but just some
>> ideas (maybe someone can add more details)
>> * compile and run a debug vm
>> * trace all function calls, http://tinyurl.com/gdb-trace-all
> 
> 
> 
> ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---
> 
> Johan Fabry   -   http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
> PLEIAD and RyCh labs  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of 
> Chile
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] fast subclassing/class creation in tests

[Robert Withers]

Extend Pharo byte codes to support Newspeak namespaces. #justsayin

---
robert

> On Oct 24, 2015, at 6:22 PM, Nicolai Hess  wrote:
> 
> You can wrap the subclassing and the \removeFromSystem with
> SystemAnnouncer uniqueInstance  suspendAllWhile: [ ]
> 
> 2015-10-24 20:43 GMT+02:00 Peter Uhnák :
>> Hi,
>> 
>> is it possible to do fast, non-system wide class subclassing in tests?
>> 
>> Currently I would do something like
>> 
>> ~
>> MyTest>>testSomething
>> cls := SomeParent subclass: #Something.
>> "... do some tests ..."
>> cls removeFromSystem
>> ~
>> 
>> This is for example what ClassTest is doing.
>> 
>> However this is very slow, and even for small tests suite --- just ten (so 
>> far) test methods it takes over ten seconds to test it all, which is quite 
>> bad for TDD.
>> 
>> My guess is that since it has to write to class to the environment and disk 
>> and then remove it it takes a while:
>> 
>> ~
>> [ Object subclass: #Something ] timeToRun. "0:00:00:00.021"
>> [ #Something asClass removeFromSystem ] timeToRun. "0:00:00:00.526"
>> ~
>> 
>> is it possible to speed it up? Create classes that are fast to remove?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo and SQLite

[Robert Withers]

Hi Jimmie,

Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like 
to evaluate this technology for my stack.


Thank you,
Robet

On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:

Hello,

I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep
all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is
great at persistence in the image.

But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the
database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure
my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own
database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.

Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not
want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install
anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or
MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.

This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.

In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of
applications come and go.
(and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than
probably half the people here.)

Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and
Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved
the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do
stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and
sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point
that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to
move my data.

Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant
limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.

My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but
LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked
at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool
for the job.

So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my
learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially
settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is
embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I
create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in
Pharo.

SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted,
reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.

Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he
believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.

SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk

2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File
Format
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc

The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I
encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his
anti-git video.
I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be
interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of
using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the
only one. But that isn't a biggie for me.
TL;DW (didn't watch)
Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a
(zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as
the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.

I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We
gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is
nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of
the software world.

For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable
persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who
don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with
people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of
course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.

I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have
previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be
building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project
generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like
projects.

Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wisdom. Any and all appreciated.

Thanks.

Jimmie

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo and SQLite

[Robert Withers]

Thanks to both of you for the links. I appreciate you.

Robert

On 10/15/2015 02:22 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:

I haven't used SQLite in Pharo, but I used it in Android. It is a
pretty complete database solution, self contained in a single file
(and a shared library ;-)).

I already posted the slides of the PgCon where Richard Hipp states
that SQLite is the replacement of fopen() and not of a whole RDBMS:
http://www.pgcon.org/2014/schedule/attachments/319_PGCon2014OpeningKeynote.pdf

You already have drivers for it here:
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/NBSQLite3

Regards!



Esteban A. Maringolo


2015-10-15 15:05 GMT-03:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com>:

Hi Jimmie,

Is this SQlite adaptor you wrote published publicly? I'd definitely like to
evaluate this technology for my stack.

Thank you,
Robet


On 10/15/2015 01:58 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:


Hello,

I am working on a project for my wife. I initially thought I would keep
all my data inside Pharo because it is a simple project and Pharo is
great at persistence in the image.

But as I pursued the project it felt like I was reinventing the
database. So I thought why am I considering working so hard to structure
my classes and objects in such a way that I am in effect writing my own
database. All of this to avoid using a "real" database.

Part of my projects goals is to keep this project contained. I do not
want to require my wife or whomever I share this with to have to install
anything other than copy or unzip the Pharo folder. No PostgreSQL or
MongoDB installs. Keep it simple.

This is a goal I have for a lot of my ideas.

In my 20+ years of computing and Internet. I have seen lots of
applications come and go.
(and no, I don't have gray hair, even though I have children older than
probably half the people here.)

Many years ago, my wife and I made tremendous use out of Apple Works and
Microsoft Works. Apple at home and for me Microsoft at work. We loved
the ease and simplicity we could throw a database together and just do
stuff. It was great. In fact on my work PC I still use weekly and
sometimes daily a database I wrote in 1994. I am almost at the point
that Windows won't run this ancient MSWorks 4 database. I will have to
move my data.

Of course these tools aren't the greatest. They have significant
limitations, but despite the limitations they were very empowering.

My wife started to attempt something similar in LibreOffice but
LibreOffice wasn't so simple. It was confusing to her. I briefly looked
at LibreOffice but I am not convinced that it is the best or right tool
for the job.

So that sent me on an adventure to implement this in Pharo. In my
learning that I don't want to reinvent the database I have initially
settled on using SQLite. SQLite meets my requirements above. It is
embedded in my Pharo app and only requires including the database file I
create. Very portable and easy to install along with anything else in
Pharo.

SQLite seems like a very good match and complement to Pharo. A trusted,
reliable, external persistence that is as simple and portable as is Pharo.

Richard Hipp creator of SQLite has several videos describing how he
believes SQLite should be used and should not be used.

SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk

2014 SouthEast LinuxFest - Richard Hipp - SQLite as an Application File
Format
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_ABXwYtuc

The videos are inspirational for using SQLite. I like what he says. I
encourage watching. I have watched these and others of his including his
anti-git video.
I am not knowledgeable about the use of git in Pharo, but I would be
interested if anybody has considered and knows the pros and cons of
using Fossil instead. I know, it wouldn't get us on GitHub. I may be the
only one. But that isn't a biggie for me.
TL;DW (didn't watch)
Use SQLite for Application File Format for persistence instead of a
(zipped) pile of files and you get many benefits. Examples in videos as
the wrong way, LibreOffice and git.

I think using SQLite like this for Pharo would be an excellent match. We
gain all the benefits of SQLite, transactions, ACID. In a tool that is
nicely (non)licensed, and is used and trusted generally by most all of
the software world.

For Pharo this buys us an excellent, simple, equally portable
persistence. It also buys us persistence that is trusted by people who
don't trust the image for their data. This could possible help with
people who explore Pharo but aren't comfortable about image only. Now of
course it won't help the Emacs or Vim, ... people.

I am exploring the idea of using Pharo and SQLite for what I would have
previously used Apple/MS Works database for. At first it would be
building the app/project for my wife. And during and after that project
generalize some things to make a better out of the box solution for like
projects.

Thoughts, opinions, ideas, wis

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Windows support for GitFileTree

[Robert Withers]

Would the SSH package in Cryptography help you?

thanks,
Robert

On 10/13/2015 03:36 AM, Thierry Goubier wrote:



2015-10-13 9:29 GMT+02:00 Peter Uhnák >:

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:11 AM, Thierry Goubier
> wrote:

Hi Hernàn,

I'm not familiar with the use of ssh-agent. Could it interfere
with someone using his own keys (i.e. without ssh-agent)? Would
this be necessary for linux or mac use of ssh-agent, or is ssh /
git correctly done on those platforms to query ssh-agent on its
own if it is already running?


I'm using ssh-agent on both windows and linux, and having
aforementioned variables (SSH_AGENT_PID, SSH_AUTH_SOCK) in the
environment is enough for git to automatically use it, no need to
prefix it.


This is what I expected. Is that different under Windows?


In any case I have notes about the implementation:

1. it assumes that it runs only on windows (it looks like this
should be generic code)


Well, as you said above, the environment under Linux/Mac takes care of
the interaction with ssh-agent... so there is no need to handle that on
the Linux/Mac side (OSProcess) versus Windows (ProcessWrapper).

2. it assumes that ssh-agent will be always installed in a specific
path, it should rely on PATH instead


Noted.

3: Windows has its own system for global env variables, so why not
use that?
So instead of doing some process lookups you simply get
$Env:SSH_AUTH_SOCK" (well, I use powershell... but the bat version
is I think %SSH_AUTH_SOCK%)


But the thing is: if I can query for environment variables in Windows,
then so can the git command as well, which would mean it would pick-up
the use of ssh-agent, no? Or should I try to manipulate the process

Anyway, I appreciate you're having a look at it. Thanks!

Thierry


Peter

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Windows support for GitFileTree

[Robert Withers]

I just took a quick look. It depends on both LayeredProtocol and SSL, 
but SSL won't load as HierarchicalUrl is missing.


thanks,
Robert

On 10/13/2015 04:02 AM, Thierry Goubier wrote:



2015-10-13 9:46 GMT+02:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com
<mailto:robert.w.with...@gmail.com>>:

Would the SSH package in Cryptography help you?


I don't know. I just delegate to git for handling the ssh stuff; Pharo
has little to gain by manipulating ssh by itself in that use case (but,
overalll, I believe ssh support to be usefull).

I'll have a look.

Thierry


thanks,
Robert

On 10/13/2015 03:36 AM, Thierry Goubier wrote:



2015-10-13 9:29 GMT+02:00 Peter Uhnák <i.uh...@gmail.com
<mailto:i.uh...@gmail.com>
<mailto:i.uh...@gmail.com <mailto:i.uh...@gmail.com>>>:

 On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:11 AM, Thierry Goubier
 <thierry.goub...@gmail.com
<mailto:thierry.goub...@gmail.com>
<mailto:thierry.goub...@gmail.com
<mailto:thierry.goub...@gmail.com>>> wrote:

 Hi Hernàn,

 I'm not familiar with the use of ssh-agent. Could it
interfere
 with someone using his own keys (i.e. without
ssh-agent)? Would
 this be necessary for linux or mac use of ssh-agent, or
is ssh /
 git correctly done on those platforms to query
ssh-agent on its
 own if it is already running?


 I'm using ssh-agent on both windows and linux, and having
 aforementioned variables (SSH_AGENT_PID, SSH_AUTH_SOCK) in the
 environment is enough for git to automatically use it, no
need to
 prefix it.


This is what I expected. Is that different under Windows?


 In any case I have notes about the implementation:

 1. it assumes that it runs only on windows (it looks like this
 should be generic code)


Well, as you said above, the environment under Linux/Mac takes
care of
the interaction with ssh-agent... so there is no need to handle
that on
the Linux/Mac side (OSProcess) versus Windows (ProcessWrapper).

 2. it assumes that ssh-agent will be always installed in a
specific
 path, it should rely on PATH instead


Noted.

 3: Windows has its own system for global env variables, so
why not
 use that?
 So instead of doing some process lookups you simply get
 $Env:SSH_AUTH_SOCK" (well, I use powershell... but the bat
version
 is I think %SSH_AUTH_SOCK%)


But the thing is: if I can query for environment variables in
Windows,
then so can the git command as well, which would mean it would
pick-up
the use of ssh-agent, no? Or should I try to manipulate the process

Anyway, I appreciate you're having a look at it. Thanks!

Thierry


 Peter

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] binary serialization

[Robert Withers]

Sven and Torsten, that's a binary serialization library! It will take 
time to learn it and how to use mappers.


What is the format; is it language neutral?

thanks,
Robert

On 10/13/2015 01:21 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:

Yes, it is called FUEL and it is a standard part of the image. See FLSerializer 
and FLMaterializer.


On 13 Oct 2015, at 06:59, Robert Withers <robert.w.with...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does Pharo have stream classes to binary de/serialize an object, such that the 
protocol accepts an object as an argument and converts it to a byteArray?

--
thanks,
Robert

Re: [Pharo-users] binary serialization

[Robert Withers]

I can only tell you I couldn't tell you how happy I am in Pharo & 
Squeak. It has been a number of years on the other side.


thanks to you, brother,
Robert

On 10/13/2015 02:08 AM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:

Hi Robert,

Nice to see you here. Google for Pharo and Fuel.
It is in the image already.

Bye
Torsten

Re: [Pharo-users] distributed peer2peer sharing app in Pharo

[Robert Withers]

Hi Peter,

This is similar to what I was thinking of delving into, although I was 
thinking differently than file-sharing. I was thinking more modified 
blockchain sharing.


My plans are to revive an old project of mine: 
http://www.squeaksource.com/squeakelib/, which depends on Cryptography. 
I am interested in implementing NIO as well. This is all infrastructure 
stuff, layers 4, 5 and 6. WebSockets may be all you need.


As any flow system needs a control layer, add a couple of layers above 
the application layer: market/cloud and meta layers, used to contain 
apps and specify the peer2peer graph and formats.


There's some other stuff, too. I don't know if this interests you.

thanks,
Robert


On 10/12/2015 10:57 AM, Peter H. Meadows via Pharo-users wrote: