Trac - Does it make sense to keep http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/4315 open?
Response to message [1] on trac.devel (as I cannot write there, due to an informally applied censorship) Mr. Boos: I left that ticket open simply to avoid having someone to reopen it over and over... (note to reader: this someone is me) Mr. Boos, the ticket status should reflect reality. So, if reality says the ticket is open, no one can (should close it. The essens of the ticket is, that you should trust you own results. You should use your development version, in order to obtain feedback. Of course I understand (seeing the terrible processes of the team), that you distrust your own results, prefering to let user do the dirty work of development-version-usage. Your inability to follow even the most rational suggestions subjecting development-processes, e.g. this one: http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6614#comment:36 will lead (together with the terrible quality of the trac source-code base) soon to an even more stucked development progress. Be assured that users see this (although they don't say much, like me). Do you actually realize that you're working since over a year on 0.11? Nothing is more fun that to watch the trac project running into one after another problem during development. At least you give other teams a good example of how to ruine a good open-source product. http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit - To readers: The project hunts since months a memory-leak - without success. I'm wondering that python makes so much trouble in finding it. Seems to be another very fundamental reason to leave this joke of a language (python). - [1] http://groups.google.com/group/trac-dev/msg/1cbcaf2b5fdc8abe From: Christian Boos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven wrote: Does it make sense to keep http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/4315 open? I left that ticket open simply to avoid having someone to reopen it over and over... That ticket is a bit useless in that it has anyway always been the policy of the project to run the latest stable release. And that works quite well in practice. I imagine t.e.o would already be running 0.11b1 now, if we didn't have those memory issues. As for documenting the blocker issues, doing that directly on the milestone page is more effective anyway. So I'd say let's just not make a fuss about this one and we'll close it once t.e.o gets upgraded to 0.11. -- Christian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
[RESEND of answer to all initial groups] On 16 Öåâ, 15:45, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: [...] Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based on... perl and it's libraries. I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run. The perl projects can decide themselfs if they like to adopt the most essential things: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Project I do not analyze languages and communities anymore, thus there is no need for them to 'worry', e.g. that I attemp to transform them to an high evolutive language system. Ruby and Python were excellent for this (Ruby = weak puppets, Python = egoism driven). I'll just use perl until I've implemented my own language, around 2010 to 2011, which will be most possibly close to perl (or a perl extension, if technically possibly and no legal barriers with libraries). Perl is available in nearly every webserver, and has very nice a logical OO functionality (although it's not very good marketed, this OO part). And perl keeps you highly independent, you can work with simple systems, close to the OS. Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace- syntax-thing of python again. Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no compulsion to use any particular tool. As said above: python (essentially it's community in a wider scope) is an ideal domain to analyze how human egoism blocks evolution of technical systems. Thus, python is an important educational tool. Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up. And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into Ilias Lazaridis. No, I'll be bound to python for some time, a year or so. And good news: as I cannot post to the trac-user group, I'll post the topics to comp.lang.python. (you can thank the project lead of trac, his lack of courage is the reason that the developers get out of control) I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian, The IT industry has failed to provide simple standards, systems. AI has failed to produce intelligent systems. So, maybe the IT industry is somewhat pedestrian, as its failure to control egoism has led to terrible software systems. Restarting from the beginning can give the impression of a learning child. but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve. http://core.lazaridis.com/wiki/ActivityHistory I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers. As said, the analysis phase is over. But even if not: I've 'survived' within comp.lang.lisp for some months http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/879809... I think no language community can be worser. - Btw: If you would adopt the open-source-processes to digital electronic design, we would work today still with 8086. http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/ProjectLead . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
[RESEND answer to all initial groups] On 16 Öåâ, 19:15, Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Essence: snipSpam spam spam spam.../snip I just looked at your resume. http://lazaridis.com/resumes/lazaridis.html (need to update it, lot's of irrelevant stuff, should focus on my failures) What is Abstract Project Management? I've mentioned abstract _product_ management Don't know exactly, I've never tried to articulate the meaning which I've internally. You could extract the meaning from Abstract Base Class or Abstractness in general. Something like universal product management. Or managing a product without having many specific information about it. Something like this _possibly_: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/KomodoAudit -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
Essence: * Trac is deficient, cause of proud to be an egoism driven amateur developers * Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not programming, but to learn from deficiency, community organization, transparency, efficiency etc.! * Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up. - I don't think that's a secret anymore. Anyone should know that the trac team has huge problems to bring trac forward. People who have looked at the code-base and project understand some reason: difficult to maintain 'spaghetti-code' in many places, disorganized project, missing separations of concerns etc.! I've provided an overview some time ago http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit At this time the developers are searching like crazy to find a mem- leak... since months. http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6614 But the main problem with the trac team is the processing within project resources. Believe it or not, developers can act within this project as they like, 'trimming' ticket comments in a way that a ticket gets a totally other meaning. The main specialist for this is Mr. Noah Kantrowitz. He calls it sanitizing. The team hides behind him, cowardly, without any public vote. How did everything start? I post a simple message to trac-users (note: the user resource, NOT the developer resource), in order to extend my custom version of trac 0.11 a little. The message did not appear, as my email is under moderation. I do not switch to another email, as I write always with the same identity. So i file a ticket within the ticket system (here you can see the After a quick vote, it has been decided to sanitize this ticket. ... I start to like this sanitize term, sounds really interesting) http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6802 Mr. Noah Kantrowitz deleted the discussion, but I've saved it here, thus you can see that the developers of trac have no idea about their own processes: http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/48 After the developers placed the usual irrelevant comments (remember: I just asked them to stop blocking my messages to trac users), they brute force closed the ticket. I've opened a new one, directly adressed to the project lead, in order to complain about the developers which violate the project processes, and to ask for a formal vote: http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6844 Right! Mr. Noah Kantrowitz plays again wild west. I relly don't know who of those two is more funny: the one who plays the dictator, or the other joker who suggests to revers the process (I should find developers to veto against the censorship and send the to the team). Remember: we are talking about the trac-user group. I really cannot believe that a whole team can be in such way confused, nuts, blind, egoism-driven etc.! Possibly they have lost the password to the trac-user group, and are not able to manage it - who knows. I would not wonder, seeing thos terrible processes and the rejection to improve them. (btw: If you like to act against censorship, please post this message to trac-users, thus the get informed about the teams processing) And we are talking about censorship of a trac 0.11dev custom-version- developer. A custom version with localization support, plugin-bundles (product-plugin) which run out of the svn, an fully functional but simple side-navigation, and... everything deactivatable with a very simple way, thus the original trac is there again. http://dev.lazaridis.com/base Open Source works like this: many many small human ego's need to be fitted. There's no place for developers which could redesign the whole thing within a few months. the trac-developers need to 'fight' with tons of spaghetti. The developers plan like crazy, instead to merge with a application framework like e.g. turbogears. Did you know that trac has no support for... datetime fields? Yes, its true. You may say: do it yourself. Of course I could do it, even without touching the main sources (using dyna-patches or monkeypatches). But that's not how open-source works. You implement thing for yourself and contribute things back to the core-project - but with trac there's one problem: no one get's the core anymore (apparently the initial developer has left) Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based on... perl and it's libraries. Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace- syntax-thing of python again. Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up. Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
On 16 Φεβ, 15:45, Robert Klemme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: snip/ Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond. http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html Thanks, nice message, I've added it to the section: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/CoreLiveEval#WhatPeopleThink http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias It's really funny how easily people fall into the encyclopediadramatica-trap... really funny. While the articles themselves are mostly satirical jabs at Internet users (both individually and in groups) and phenomena, bear in mind that the Encyclopedia Dramatica itself is a parody of a much less funny online encyclopedia. As such, ED articles tend to make fun of the supposed objectivity and accuracy, elitism, and stupid edit wars of such sites. In other words, expect blatant, biased lies, and expect boring truths to get deleted quickly. http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Encyclopedia_Dramatica:About Cheers robert -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
On 16 Φεβ, 19:15, Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Essence: snipSpam spam spam spam.../snip I just looked at your resume. http://lazaridis.com/resumes/lazaridis.html (need to update it, lot's of irrelevant stuff, should focus on my failures) What is Abstract Project Management? I've mentioned abstract _product_ management Don't know exactly, I've never tried to articulate the meaning which I've internally. You could extract the meaning from Abstract Base Class or Abstractness in general. Something like universal product management. Or managing a product without having many specific information about it. Something like this _possibly_: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/KomodoAudit -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
On 16 Φεβ, 15:45, Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: [...] Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based on... perl and it's libraries. I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run. The perl projects can decide themselfs if they like to adopt the most essential things: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Project I do not analyze languages and communities anymore, thus there is no need for them to 'worry', e.g. that I attemp to transform them to an high evolutive language system. Ruby and Python were excellent for this (Ruby = weak puppets, Python = egoism driven). I'll just use perl until I've implemented my own language, around 2010 to 2011, which will be most possibly close to perl (or a perl extension, if technically possibly and no legal barriers with libraries). Perl is available in nearly every webserver, and has very nice a logical OO functionality (although it's not very good marketed, this OO part). And perl keeps you highly independent, you can work with simple systems, close to the OS. Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace- syntax-thing of python again. Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no compulsion to use any particular tool. As said above: python (essentially it's community in a wider scope) is an ideal domain to analyze how human egoism blocks evolution of technical systems. Thus, python is an important educational tool. Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up. And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into Ilias Lazaridis. No, I'll be bound to python for some time, a year or so. And good news: as I cannot post to the trac-user group, I'll post the topics to comp.lang.python. (you can thank the project lead of trac, his lack of courage is the reason that the developers get out of control) I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian, The IT industry has failed to provide simple standards, systems. AI has failed to produce intelligent systems. So, maybe the IT industry is somewhat pedestrian, as its failure to control egoism has led to terrible software systems. Restarting from the beginning can give the impression of a learning child. but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve. http://core.lazaridis.com/wiki/ActivityHistory I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers. As said, the analysis phase is over. But even if not: I've 'survived' within comp.lang.lisp for some months http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/87980954f111e965/af5f19a1c8101a93?lnk=stq=dynamite+and+teflon+ilias#af5f19a1c8101a93 I think no language community can be worser. - Btw: If you would adopt the open-source-processes to digital electronic design, we would work today still with 8086. http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/ProjectLead . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Detecting memory leaks on apache, mod_python
On Dec 23, 2:47 am, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] cybersource.com.au wrote: On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:05:23 -0800, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: I've never encountered such items supported by the language. OS specific extensions MIGHT supply it... Picky picky... but of course you are right. When I said that programming languages I have used before had facilities to measure memory usage, I meant that the *implementation* had those facilities rather than the language itself. yes, that's what this thread is about. I'm really just looking for a low-level python (memory) profiling tool, and thus i'm asking in c.l.p. for experiences, mainly in context of an apache mod_python environment. But seeing the responses within this thread, it looks like there's no such tool available. . http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/PythonAudit -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Detecting memory leaks on apache, mod_python
On 22 Δεκ, 09:09, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] For Python, standard process monitoring tools (combined with a basic understanding of how dynamic memory allocation works on modern platforms) are usually sufficient to get a good view of an application's memory usage patterns. [...] which standard process monitoring tools are those? Aren't there any python specific tools (e.g. which list the python modules which use the memory)? . http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/PythonAudit -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Detecting memory leaks on apache, mod_python
On Dec 19, 5:40 am, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 17, 8:41 am, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How to detect memory leaks of python programms, which run in an environment like this: * Suse Linux 9.3 * Apache * mod_python The problem occoured after some updates on the infrastructure. It's most possibly caused by trac and it's dependencies, but several components of the OS where updated, too. Any nice tools which play with the above constellation? Thank's for any hints! No tool available to detect memory leaks for python applications? So, anyone who hit's on this thread via a search will think a) that there's really no memory leak detection for python b) that this community is not very helpful context: http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/ticket/148 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Detecting memory leaks on apache, mod_python
On Dec 21, 3:21 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Please get serious, Mr.! (and avoid further off-topics) . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Detecting memory leaks on apache, mod_python
On Dec 21, 12:25 pm, Graham Dumpleton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 21, 7:42 pm, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 19, 5:40 am, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 17, 8:41 am, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How to detect memory leaks of python programms, which run in an environment like this: * Suse Linux 9.3 * Apache *mod_python The problem occoured after some updates on the infrastructure. It's most possibly caused by trac and it's dependencies, but several components of the OS where updated, too. Any nice tools which play with the above constellation? Thank's for any hints! No tool available to detect memory leaks for python applications? So, anyone who hit's on this thread via a search will think a) that there's really no memory leak detection for python b) that this community is not very helpful Comments like (b) will not help your chances one bit in respect of getting an answer from anyone. [...] I'm really just looking for a low-level python (memory) profiling tool, and thus i'm asking in c.l.p. for experiences, mainly in context of an apache mod_python environment. As to Open Source etc.: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/PythonAudit http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/CoreLiveEval Than you for your reply. . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Detecting memory leaks on apache, mod_python
On Dec 17, 8:41 am, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How to detect memory leaks of python programms, which run in an environment like this: * Suse Linux 9.3 * Apache * mod_python The problem occoured after some updates on the infrastructure. It's most possibly caused by trac and it's dependencies, but several components of the OS where updated, too. Any nice tools which play with the above constellation? Thank's for any hints! No tool available to detect memory leaks for python applications? context: http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/ticket/148 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: WikiInclude on 0.11 - Noah Kantrowitz blocks bug-fix
On Dec 18, 9:15 pm, smallpond [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 17, 9:23 pm, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Essence: * Deletion of valid defect reports on trac community resources The WikiInclude plugin is not recognised on trac 0.11, thus I took a look an made a small addition to the setup.py (the entry_point). Other users have the same problem, thus I filed a ticket in the trac- hacks community resource. Mr. Noah Kantrowitz closed the ticket as invalid. My comments within this ticket are deleted, directly in the database, which is the same as censorship. I've copied the email-notification from my comment below. [1] Please realize: * this is a real-live defect, which remains unprocessed, thus more users run into this trouble. * My attemps to inform users in the user-threads do not show up in all threads (moderation on trac-users!!!) * The IncludeMacro is not compatible to the WikiInclude macro * My comments were deleted in a non-trackable way * Users of the WikiInclude plugin are not informed in any way You are may wondering why the trac project fails to produce a stable 1.0 version since years. The answer is here: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit - [1] #2294: Plugin is not detectd on trac 0.11 (even the 0.11 specific one) +--- Reporter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Owner: yu-ji Type: defect | Status: reopened Priority: normal |Component: WikiIncludePlugin Severity: critical | Resolution: Keywords: | Release: 0.11 +--- Changes (by [EMAIL PROTECTED]): * status: closed = reopened * resolution: invalid = * summary: Missing entry_point within setup.py = Plugin is not detectd on trac 0.11 (even the 0.11 specific one) Comment: (Mr. Kantrowitz. This is defenitely a defect, which occoured for several users. The provided information helps any user which hits on this ticket via a search. I ask you once more to stop with the deletions on this '''community''' resource). The resolution invalid is incorrect. The problem exists for me '''and other''' users, see e.g.: * [http://groups.google.com/group/trac-users/browse_frm/thread/ de454e7dcf9f0438/d9806ad4a31a14a7 thread 1] * [http://groups.google.com/group/trac-users/browse_frm/thread/ 2ccf4b2855a6f242?q=WikiInclude thread 2] I've solved it whilst simply adding the entry point to the setup.py. It is ok to point to the more flexible and maintained IncludeMacro, but other people possibly just want to continue to use the simpler WikiInclude one. I suggest the maintainer of WikiInclude (or another developer) corrects the setup.py in the repo, and additionally one should place a note in the WikiInclude documentation, that there's a more flexible IncludeMacro available. Trac is a python application. yes, that's why the followup goes to c.l.p Please read the posting guidelines for c.l.p.m no need. the topic affects other open-source communities, too. (hints: censorship, trac is used within open-source domain, ...) http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/42 http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
[TRAC] WikiInclude on 0.11 - Noah Kantrowitz blocks bug-fix
Essence: * Deletion of valid defect reports on trac community resources The WikiInclude plugin is not recognised on trac 0.11, thus I took a look an made a small addition to the setup.py (the entry_point). Other users have the same problem, thus I filed a ticket in the trac- hacks community resource. Mr. Noah Kantrowitz closed the ticket as invalid. My comments within this ticket are deleted, directly in the database, which is the same as censorship. I've copied the email-notification from my comment below. [1] Please realize: * this is a real-live defect, which remains unprocessed, thus more users run into this trouble. * My attemps to inform users in the user-threads do not show up in all threads (moderation on trac-users!!!) * The IncludeMacro is not compatible to the WikiInclude macro * My comments were deleted in a non-trackable way * Users of the WikiInclude plugin are not informed in any way You are may wondering why the trac project fails to produce a stable 1.0 version since years. The answer is here: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit - [1] #2294: Plugin is not detectd on trac 0.11 (even the 0.11 specific one) +--- Reporter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Owner: yu-ji Type: defect | Status: reopened Priority: normal |Component: WikiIncludePlugin Severity: critical | Resolution: Keywords: | Release: 0.11 +--- Changes (by [EMAIL PROTECTED]): * status: closed = reopened * resolution: invalid = * summary: Missing entry_point within setup.py = Plugin is not detectd on trac 0.11 (even the 0.11 specific one) Comment: (Mr. Kantrowitz. This is defenitely a defect, which occoured for several users. The provided information helps any user which hits on this ticket via a search. I ask you once more to stop with the deletions on this '''community''' resource). The resolution invalid is incorrect. The problem exists for me '''and other''' users, see e.g.: * [http://groups.google.com/group/trac-users/browse_frm/thread/ de454e7dcf9f0438/d9806ad4a31a14a7 thread 1] * [http://groups.google.com/group/trac-users/browse_frm/thread/ 2ccf4b2855a6f242?q=WikiInclude thread 2] I've solved it whilst simply adding the entry point to the setup.py. It is ok to point to the more flexible and maintained IncludeMacro, but other people possibly just want to continue to use the simpler WikiInclude one. I suggest the maintainer of WikiInclude (or another developer) corrects the setup.py in the repo, and additionally one should place a note in the WikiInclude documentation, that there's a more flexible IncludeMacro available. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: WikiInclude on 0.11 - Noah Kantrowitz blocks bug-fix
On Dec 18, 4:23 am, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Essence: * Deletion of valid defect reports on trac community resources UPDATE: Instead of fixing the WikiInclude in the repo (or at least leave the ticket open, thus a developer can do it), Mr. Noah Kantrowitz goes his very special way (hint: his nick coderanger) to suggest to use the IncludeMacro: This plugin uses the older style trac_plugin.txt file. If you need something more 0.11 compatible, try the IncludeMacro. http://trac-hacks.org/ticket/2294#comment:1 This is of course completely nonsense. I don't want to use the complex and buggy IncludeMacro. The WikiInclude can be corrected with just one line. But ok, let's take a at Mr. Noah Kantrowitz creation, the IncludeMacro. Does it work with 0.11? He does not know, thus he asks: What about the current version doesn't work in 0.11? http://trac-hacks.org/ticket/2310#comment:3 who received this question? A user, which has provided a 0.11 implementation of the plugin: * summary changed from [patch] 0.11 patch to 0.11 version of IncludeMacro. Well, there's certainly no need to get snippy over semantics ;) There wasn't a version of IncludeMacro for 0.11, so I created one in the hopes that other Trac admins might find it useful -- humblest apologies for erroneously referring to my submission as a patch. Having said that, if you feel so inclined as to review my version, then that would be superb, as I'm sure potential future users would feel much better if my contribution had your blessing and/or fixes. http://trac-hacks.org/ticket/2310#comment:2 Other tickets remain completely unprocessed, although they give an answer to his question does it work on 0.11: The macros.py of Includewikimacro contain : macro = WikiProcessor? (self.env, 'Include') for the rendering of the wiki page. Whereas now with the version 0.11, the function WikiProcessor?() nead a formatter as first argument and not anymore an environment. 08/27/07 05:13:21 changed by [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://trac-hacks.org/ticket/1973 Mr. Noah Kantrowitz does not care about the trac users, otherwise he would update the svn of the WikiInclude macro and the documentation to inform users, instead of violently closing a valid ticket as an invalid one. A few more wild-west CODERANGERS like Noah Kantrowitz can ruine the already very slow progress of the trac-project completely. User comments and user feedback is critical for any open-source project. Engouraging contributions, instead of surpressing them is essential. Trac-Users, please do not accept such a surpressive behaviour - it costs your time. (btw: I am a 0.11dev user, see http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/wiki) . The WikiInclude plugin is not recognised on trac 0.11, thus I took a look an made a small addition to the setup.py (the entry_point). Other users have the same problem, thus I filed a ticket in the trac- hacks community resource. Mr. Noah Kantrowitz closed the ticket as invalid. My comments within this ticket are deleted, directly in the database, which is the same as censorship. I've copied the email-notification from my comment below. [1] Please realize: * this is a real-live defect, which remains unprocessed, thus more users run into this trouble. * My attemps to inform users in the user-threads do not show up in all threads (moderation on trac-users!!!) * The IncludeMacro is not compatible to the WikiInclude macro * My comments were deleted in a non-trackable way * Users of the WikiInclude plugin are not informed in any way You are may wondering why the trac project fails to produce a stable 1.0 version since years. The answer is here: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit - [1] #2294: Plugin is not detectd on trac 0.11 (even the 0.11 specific one) +--- Reporter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Owner: yu-ji Type: defect | Status: reopened Priority: normal |Component: WikiIncludePlugin Severity: critical | Resolution: Keywords: | Release: 0.11 +--- Changes (by [EMAIL PROTECTED]): * status: closed = reopened * resolution: invalid = * summary: Missing entry_point within setup.py = Plugin is not detectd on trac 0.11 (even the 0.11 specific one) Comment: (Mr. Kantrowitz. This is defenitely a defect, which occoured for several users. The provided information helps any user which hits on this ticket via a search. I ask you once more to stop with the deletions on this '''community''' resource). The resolution invalid is incorrect. The problem exists for me '''and other''' users, see e.g.: * [http://groups.google.com/group/trac-users/browse_frm/thread/ de454e7dcf9f0438/d9806ad4a31a14a7 thread 1] * [http://groups.google.com/group
Detecting memory leaks on apache, mod_python
How to detect memory leaks of python programms, which run in an environment like this: * Suse Linux 9.3 * Apache * mod_python The problem occoured after some updates on the infrastructure. It's most possibly caused by trac and it's dependencies, but several components of the OS where updated, too. Any nice tools which play with the above constellation? Thank's for any hints! context: http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/ticket/148 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
SQLALCHEMY - Method to have the last word, by Michael Bayer
[1] - Ο/Η metaperl: TurboEntity was quite sweet. Supposedly a complete rewrite as a new product is on its way though. Ilias Lazaridis: the first major problem of this rewrite: it happens 'silently' (non-public) Michael Bayer wrote within: http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy/msg/9d7a096a61abfc6f django was not available to the public until it was fully functional (youd go to the site and just get a coming soon-style splash page)..and even then it was already in production use in earlier forms. they knew that if you release something that wasnt polished and would lead to user frustration, people would get disinterested and leave. the strategy seems to have worked for them. I understand your elaborations. Possibly sqlalchemy should do the same, until it's fully functional and do not 'frustrate users'. And Turbogears, too. And Django, as it's still not fully functional (mainly due to it's deficient ORM layer). Or all those projects remain open(!), allowing users and contributors to review the source(!), in order to be able to contribute requirements, ideas, patches, sources etc.! its not your grandfather's open source community ! Please keep relatives out of discussions. - [1] Continueing a thread from sqlalchemy group) within comp.lang.python (closest public usenet group), because Michael Bayer has closed the thread within google.groups (no reply possible to anyone) prior to enabling my answer to his message. http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy/msg/841b3b14d8108ac0 . -- http://dev.lazaridis.com/base -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SQLALCHEMY - Method to have the last word, by Michael Bayer
Ο/Η Diez B. Roggisch έγραψε: ... (several off-topics) Please control yourself. Ï/Ç metaperl: TurboEntity was quite sweet. Supposedly a complete rewrite as a new product is on its way though. Ilias Lazaridis: the first major problem of this rewrite: it happens 'silently' (non-public) 3 projects (TurboEntity, ActiveMapper, and one unpublished) join, in order to provide an better ORM layer for Python. How is the project moving on? How can one contribute? I don't know - does anyone have more information? . -- http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Persist -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Terry Reedy wrote: Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I share the infrastructure which I use: http://dev.lazaridis.com/base But not quite yet, it appears. A public release is planned shortly Thank you for you comment. You are right. I've not yet selected the license yet (this case is quite complex): http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/License But I've placed a BSD2 license to the existent files: http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/browser/infra . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Peter Wang wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: looks interesting. Thanks! what about persistency? Um... what about it? As far as I can see, there's no persistency binding available. Is one planned? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/dbdaedc68eee653a . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Peter Wang wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Peter Wang wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: what about persistency? Um... what about it? As far as I can see, there's no persistency binding available. Is one planned? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/dbdaedc68eee653a This thread was just some name-calling between you and Robert Kern, but didn't really provide any details. I've just asked about persistency. No names called from my side. I guess I'm too dumb to understand the question... Does pickle not work for you? What is a persistency binding? I think I got my answer. Thank's for your responses. . -- http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Stack -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
self (was: Python component model)
Peter Maas wrote: Paul Boddie wrote: People who bring up stuff about self and indentation are just showing their ignorance, in my opinion, since Python isn't the first language to use self in such a way, and many C++ and Java programs use this pervasively in order to make attribute scope explicit, whereas the indentation matter is only troublesome with bad editing practices. I don't think the community should spend any more time on these criticisms. How many programmers don't use Python because of the self issue? I'm not for changing the semantics here but when I wrote a method with lots of selfs recently I tried how it would look like if it would be allowed not to write down 'self', i.e. from def deposit(self, amount): self.balance = self.balance + amount to def deposit( , amount): .balance = .balance + amount would like this. I finally liked pythons 'forced-indentation' thing, but 'self' is just terrible. def deposit(amount) .balance = .balance + amount # a little thin this dot @balance = @balance + amount # why not similar to ruby? self = do this and that # self remains available but this will have most possibly major implications (design, compatibility etc.) possibly the simplest way would be to agree on 's' (typing is very fast, faster than SHIFT-2 for @) def deposit(s, amount) s.balance = s.balance + amount so, python 2.6 = introduces agreement on 's' ? this will never happen, but everyone is of course free to use 's' instead of 'self' immedeately. There's no problem (except possibly the tiny annoyancy when reading through libraries which use 'self'). . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Peter Decker wrote: On 10/10/06, Peter Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I for my part would be happy to see a Delphi-like RAD tool for Python, a reference implementation for web programming as part of the standard library, Jython 2.5, Python for PHP or whatever attracts new programmers. I think you should take a good look at Dabo and the visual tools they are creating. While I would be the first one to admit that they are not polished to the level of Delphi, they are pretty amazing for a couple of guys working in their spare time! If we could get more of the community to contribute to this project, I don't think that there would be any other RAD tool that would come close. -- # p.d. yes, an interesting tool. But to get more attention and developers, the project needs to be polished. really unattractive resources: http://dabodev.com http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DaboAudit -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Peter Decker wrote: On 11 Oct 2006 18:56:30 -0700, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yes, an interesting tool. But to get more attention and developers, the project needs to be polished. really unattractive resources: http://dabodev.com http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DaboAudit Well, then, why not contribute? Or are you waiting for everyone else to do it for you? I've contributed already (my contructive criticism). It's up to the team to react. It really grinds my gears when people take something that involves hundreds if not thousands of hours of time that is offered to them for free, and then nitpicks on something completely tangential. If you project infrastructure is not tangential. It's essential want a polished website, then offer to contribute one! Terrible this open source folks. One cannot say one word without beeing asked to contribute. Don't whine about a couple of developers who are doing amazing things in their doing amazing things is not enouth to bring a language-community forward (or to create a python component model, which is the topic of this thread) spare time while you're contributing absolutely nothing to the community. I share the infrastructure which I use: http://dev.lazaridis.com/base . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Robert Kern wrote: Peter Decker wrote: On 11 Oct 2006 18:56:30 -0700, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yes, an interesting tool. But to get more attention and developers, the project needs to be polished. really unattractive resources: http://dabodev.com http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DaboAudit Well, then, why not contribute? Or are you waiting for everyone else to do it for you? No, he's just a troll that enjoys telling everyone what to do. Don't try to get him to contribute anything useful; it won't work. Mr. Kern! Seeing you working on such a seemingly excellent product, I am really wondering about your tenor. can you please inform me (and the interested readers) about the persistency mechanism within traits: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8e89ed163b978fe2 . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Robert Kern wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Robert Kern wrote: No, he's just a troll that enjoys telling everyone what to do. Don't try to get him to contribute anything useful; it won't work. Mr. Kern! Seeing you working on such a seemingly excellent product, I am really wondering about your tenor. I am confident that it is accurately aimed. Furthermore, I am confident that the record and the rest of this community will back me up on it. I've told you before that this community will not tolerate your bad behavior. How many times does this have to be demonstrated before you will leave? Please stay in-topic can you please inform me (and the interested readers) about the persistency mechanism within traits: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8e89ed163b978fe2 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Peter Decker wrote: On 11 Oct 2006 20:08:12 -0700, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, then, why not contribute? Or are you waiting for everyone else to do it for you? I've contributed already (my contructive criticism). It's up to the team to react. Wow! What a contribution! Amazing that Dabo hasn't taken over the world with that sort of help pouring in! Anybody can criticize. It's easy to find fault; it's much harder to create something valuable. [REQUOTE] I share the infrastructure which I use: http://dev.lazaridis.com/base [/REQUOTE] I saw the references to your being a troll, and thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. Guess I'm still too optimistic. No. You're just ignoring given facts in a controlled manner. Like many other people of this community. And that's the main reason why python does not move forward in the speed it could. . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Robert Kern wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Robert Kern wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Robert Kern wrote: No, he's just a troll that enjoys telling everyone what to do. Don't try to get him to contribute anything useful; it won't work. Mr. Kern! Seeing you working on such a seemingly excellent product, I am really wondering about your tenor. I am confident that it is accurately aimed. Furthermore, I am confident that the record and the rest of this community will back me up on it. I've told you before that this community will not tolerate your bad behavior. How many times does this have to be demonstrated before you will leave? Please stay in-topic Asking disruptive individuals to leave is always on-topic. please realize: the only disruptive individual at this point is you. Now, please go away. of course I stay. I will happily and pleasantly converse with anyone who has questions about Traits or any of Enthought's other tools if they ask in good faith. I believe that the record shows that you do not do so. Really, I'm quite nice and helpful to other people. Sorry to say, but your behaviour is very ungentle. I've place a simple question. If you are really helpful to other people, then pleas just answer. Many other people follow this discussion, and many will see the question within the archives... unsanswered. looks interesting. what about persistency? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8e89ed163b978fe2 As far as I can see, there's no persistency binding available. Is one planned? . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Peter Maas wrote: Bruno Desthuilliers schrieb: Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote: (snip) Python itself is a RAD tool. +1 QOTW No, please stop self-assuring, self-pleasing QOTWs! This afternoon I was in the local book warehouse and went to the computer book department. They had banned 2-3 Python books together with some Perl- and C/C++ stuff into the last row. At the regular place I found a huge pile of Java books and - in comparison to Java - a small but growing number of books about Ruby in general, Ruby on Rails and - new to me - JRuby. Now I don't think that Ruby is a bad language. But I think Python is better and it started earlier. I don't know whether Ruby on Rails was a fluke or the result of clever analysis. Since a large part of programming is web programming it is not bad to have a good and visible tool in place to attract programmers. It is also a good idea to hook on Java's success but while Jython 2.2 is in alpha state since 3 years I see an increasing number of books/articles telling how to migrate from Java to (J)Ruby. Since I started using Python 4 years ago I hear Ruby people announce with an amazing audacitiy that Ruby is bound to be number one and will for sure leave Python behind. To prevent this to happen parts of the Python community should have a more critical attitude to the language. Too often I hear the same mantras being repeated over and over again (GIL, self, IDE etc.). I don't say these mantras are all wrong but perhaps it would be good to remove the GIL just to stop people talking about Python's lack of multi-threading or polish Python's class syntax to stop people talking about Python's OO being bolted on etc. Programmers often choose their languages by very silly reasoning (silliest being the indentation issue) and maybe we should take the silliness into account instead of laughing about those silly folks. I for my part would be happy to see a Delphi-like RAD tool for Python, a reference implementation for web programming as part of the standard library, Jython 2.5, Python for PHP or whatever attracts new programmers. Peter Maas, Aachen well said. Based on a comment in this thread, I've just detected this one: http://code.enthought.com/ets/ http://code.enthought.com/envisage/ BSD2 licensed, so it's very attractive as a foundation for a joint-community-effort. _very_ interesting stuff, i've placed in on the list for a later review: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Stack . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python component model
Robert Kern wrote: Edward Diener No Spam wrote: ... You'll definitely want to take a look at Enthought's Traits (disclaimer: I work for Enthought). I'm supposed to be on vacation now, so I'm not going to give you the full rundown of Traits and Traits UI, so I'm simply going to point you to the page we have about it: http://code.enthought.com/traits/ It looks as if traits is an attempt to create a property in the component terminology which I originally specified. I will take a look at it. It also provides an event model and a declarative UI layer as well as several other things besides. looks interesting. what about persistency? . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python to use a non open source bug tracker?
Ben Finney wrote: Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for Mr. Holden... it's not a matter of not respecting you. It is in his nature to babble in this way. Sometimes it's even funny! Oh my. You have *seriously* misjudged this group if you think that comment will give you any net gain in discussions here. I'm not interested in any gain (except within the systems that I produce). My intention was mainly to place myself on the side of the OP, before the 'Herd of Savages' (the 'Regular Posters') get's out of control and eat's him. . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
Gabriel Genellina wrote: At Wednesday 27/9/2006 09:29, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: import sys def f(obj): if obj: print '::: ' + repr(obj) sys.displayhook = f Have you tried that? You have to filter out None, not *any* False value. And notice that this replaces the output of *evaluated* expressions, not any print statement executed inside your code. Any simple solution for this? Displaying things interactively is not the same as executing a print statement inside the code - I feel right they are not considered the same thing. print output goes to sys.stdout, you could replace it. this is nicely described here: http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/weblog/arch_d7_2006_01_21.shtml#e192 do i need the getattr and writeline methods in MyStdOut? . -- http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/10 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: IDLE has an output format like this: object type 'object' type type 'type' object.__class__ type 'type' object.__bases__ How can I customize it to become like that: object type 'object' type type 'type' object.__class__ type 'type' object.__bases__ or that: object : type 'object' type : type 'type' object.__class__ : type 'type' object.__bases__ (preferably without modifying code) I am close to finalizing this task, but have two tiny problems: import the module from within a site_packages *.pth file, or include the code into sitecustomize, or import it withine an IDLE session: # idlex.py #--- import sys class ClaimStdOut: def __init__(self, stream, prefix): self.stdout = stream #remember original stream self.prefix = prefix def write(self, output): self.stdout.write(self.prefix + output) #this one is _not_ executed on import: sys.stdout = ClaimStdOut(sys.stdout, '=== ') #workaround: def f(obj): if obj is not None: print repr(obj) # Claiming StdOut here sys.stdout = ClaimStdOut(sys.stdout, '::: ') #disable displayhook (which is just used to set stdout) sys.displayhook = sys.__displayhook__ # this one _is_ executed on import sys.displayhook = f #--- So, why is this line not executed during import? sys.stdout = ClaimStdOut(sys.stdout, '=== ') additionally, the output of IDLE looks like this: IDLE 1.1.3 No Subprocess 1==1 True [the new stdout is active now] 1==1 ::: True::: Possibly IDLE prints the CR/LF in a second call. How can I compare this operating-system-independent? if (output == os.line-end-marker): self.stdout.write(output) else: self.stdout.write(self.prefix + output) . -- http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/10 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python to use a non open source bug tracker?
Giovanni Bajo wrote: Aahz wrote: Are you ever going to try and make a point which is not you are not entitled to have opinions because you do not act? Your sarcasm is getting annoying. And since I'm not trolling nor flaming, I think I deserve a little bit more of respect. IMO, regardless of whether you are trolling or flaming, you are certainly being disrespectful. Why should we treat you with any more respect than you give others? Disrespectful? Because I say that I don't agree with some specific requirement, trying to discuss and understand the rationale behind it? there's really not much to understand, just one thing: There are no rationales. This is a 'decision by feeling': http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/0334d6ff60a48991 As for Mr. Holden... it's not a matter of not respecting you. It is in his nature to babble in this way. Sometimes it's even funny! . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: HOST - Assembla Inc. Breakout - Copyright Violation by Mr. Andy Singleton
Richard Brodie wrote: Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] This is on the same level of interest to the communities of python, ruby java as the color of my socks this morning - a deep black with cute little skulls imprinted. I did find Andy's claim that he expected contributors to sing a copyright transfer agreement somewhat unreasonable. It would depend on the tune though, I guess. Such agreements seem to be nothing special within Software Business (although the Assembla one looks a little bit one-sided). Companies have to ensure that they own the software, otherwise they cannot sell the product. For a contribution which happens based on reduced rates and in context of Open Source, such an agreement is of course inacceptable (developer looses all rights). That's why I've provided an alternative agreement (Joint Copyright), which covers the needs of both sides: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/AssemblaReworkProject#CopyrightAssignment . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python to use a non open source bug tracker?
Michael Ströder wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: You need just 2 active contributors - and the python community, not more Hmm, this number does not say much. It really depends on the required service level and how much time these two people can spend for maintaining the tracker service. that was not the essence of the sentence, see full context: [REQUOTE] You need just 2 active contributors - and the python community, not more (it's open source - so do some plumbing yourself, even if you are the Python Foundation). Alternatively, why don't you place an requirement active open source project which can process request from the foundation? Because this could have a negative influence on selecting Roundup? (this is the reverse selection process. Select the candidate and adjust the requirements). [/REQUOTE] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python to use a non open source bug tracker?
Steve Holden wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Giovanni Bajo wrote: Hello, I just read this mail by Brett Cannon: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-October/069139.html where the PSF infrastracture committee, after weeks of evaluation, recommends using a non open source tracker (called JIRA - never heard before of course) for Python itself. Does this smell Bitkeeper fiasco to anyone else than me? -- Giovanni Bajo Fascinating. The python foundation suggests a non-python non-open-source bugtracking tool for python. It's like saying: The python community is not able to produce the tools needed to drive development of python forward. Anyway. The whole selection process is intransparent. The commitee should have stated goals and requirements with a public verification of the tools against them. Is there any stick in the known universe that you will grasp the *right* end of? http://wiki.python.org/moin/OriginalCallForTrackers Please have a little bit more precision: Because we are not sure exactly what are requirements for a tracker are we do not have a comprehensive requirements document. http://wiki.python.org/moin/OriginalCallForTrackers This document is empty: http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoodTrackerFeatures This is what I call intransparent selection process or selectiong by feelings. - The central requirement for a development-infrastructure / Host is _control_: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Host My personal selection for a tracking-system for a python based projects is Trac: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Tracking I context of the python project (which has own wiki), Roundup could become the No.1 choice. I am biased towards trac, but to be honest, I've not verified Roundup deeper (due to the missing wiki-svn-ticket-integration, which is Trac's major strength). So, define the Goals, specify the resulting Requirements, and _after_ this, verify the Tools (Trac, Roundup) against those requirements - otherwise the whole comitee thing becomes just a joke. Another joke is to 'scare' the community with a non-open-source java tracker, in order to get 6 to 10 contributors. You need just 2 active contributors - and the python community, not more (it's open source - so do some plumbing yourself, even if you are the Python Foundation). Alternatively, why don't you place an requirement active open source project which can process request from the foundation? Because this could have a negative influence on selecting Roundup? (this is the reverse selection process. Select the candidate and adjust the requirements). In any way, the 'comitee' should really stop talking about JIRA in context of python. This sounds really like a joke of bad taste. btw: If JIRA is selected finally, the I have really to revise my decision to choose python for my projects. Simply because I would be afraid that the Python Foundation can't move Python into a leading position. http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Lang - btw: I like both tools, JIRA (nice design) and Roundup (simplicity, db layer) . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: HOST - Assembla Inc. Breakout - Copyright Violation by Mr. Andy Singleton
[For some reason, the newsgroup server seems to not have distributed the messages yet. Thus posting via groups-google now. first message was from 2006-09-27, second message from 2006-09-28, both with a CC to Andy Singleton] Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: CC to : Andy Singleton [EMAIL PROTECTED] followup to: c.l.ruby Despite several notifications, Mr. Andy Singleton of Assembla Inc. continues to keep my contributions within the breakout project, without payment of the related invoices, violating this way my copyright. I ask Mr. Singleton of Assembla Inc. once more to remove all material (code, documentation, documentation changes, tickets) posted by my person to the Breakout project under the user-name lazaridis_com between 2006-07-15 00:00 and 2006-07-04 23:59 (GMT) correction: and 2006-08-04 23:59 -^^--- http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/timeline?from=08%2F05%2F06daysback=21milestone=onticket=onticket_details=onchangeset=onwiki=onupdate=Update Mr. Singleton, In reply to your private message (which states that you removed all of my original code, tickets and wiki pages): I can confirm that you've removed: * all tickets and ticket-comments * all original wiki pages and wiki-page-modifications - As to the code and other repository commits: You have removed a few (not all) of my commits from the repository... http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1429 ...but this code is still active on the production server. As you said within the private email it's a small amount of code. Thus it should be no problem to _immediately_ revert _all_ my commits from the repository and to _remove_ the code from the production server (and of course from all other servers which run breakout): for your convenience, here is a list: http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/timeline?from=08%2F05%2F06daysback=22changeset=onupdate=Update Mr. Singleton, within privat email (2006-09-28), you've replied that you've looked at the list and removed the original code. Additionally, you stated that it will be deployed after testing (to the production server). It's a small amount of code (and configuration-file changes), so why do you need time for this simple task? After waiting one further week, I ask you once more to revert the commits from the repository and from the production server(s) (where my contributions are still active): Possibly missed during last revert: http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1323 Not reverted: http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1316 http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1326 http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1327 http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1328 http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1329 you do _not_ need to revert those commits (as they've been overridden by the update or contain irrelevant commits): http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1313 http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1314 http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1315 http://tools.assembla.com/breakout/changeset/1330 - I wish you good luck in further adopting Open Source Practices whilst bringing them to commercial software development. Hopefully your clients are aware of what can happen within public projects: a public confrontation. I am just one individual - imagine what happens if a whole community detects an abuse...! - One final tip: If you edit manually posts / your writings on a infrastructure under your control (assembla.com), whilst adding messages which you've previously posted:: Also, I don’t want your code. I will replace any code that you wrote. http://assembla.com/flows/show_comment/a_Q598si0r26njaaeP0Qfc#showReply=false do not forget one thing: The internet-caches (like e.g. google cache): Also, I don’t want your code. I will replace any code that you wrote, that is not covered by the GPL licensing that applies to our Trac code, if I can find any. http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:15NB7Z3ufJIJ:tools.assembla.com/breakout/ticket/484+Simply:+what%27s+going+on+here%3Fhl=enct=clnkcd=1 - Note to readers: You can find the whole case here: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Assembla . I still don't understand why you've not kept you're offer of a partial payment: http://beta.assembla.com/flows/show/by2rhcrQKr25-kadbivGe2#showReply=false http://beta.assembla.com/flows/show/a_Q598si0r26njaaeP0Qfc#showReply=false (You can still do this, in order to avoid further effort.) - Finally, to cover your curiosity about the objective of my request (and your hope that I've achieved it): a) To protect my rights and to avoid commercial use of my _commercial_ (but unpaid) contributions to a _commercial_ project. b) Το showcase negative side-effects of Development Only Open Source Licenses (like Assembla Breakout uses). c) To inform other developers about upcoming Commercial Open Source projects and the importancy of the copyright-payment
Re: HOST - Assembla Inc. Breakout - Copyright Violation by Mr. Andy Singleton
Paul McGuire wrote: Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] snip - a bunch of back-and-forth correspondence of no interest to anyone here whatsoever WHAT IS THIS CRAP DOING ON THIS NEWSGROUP???!!! IT IS UNWANTED AND UNWELCOME!!! If you want to make some sort of public notice of your aggrievement with Assembla, Breakout, Mr. Singleton, whatever, take out an ad in the newspaper! No one here is interested in your soap opera. -- Paul McGuire please relax and do not speak for all current and future readers (archives). I admit it is difficult to detect that this post is in-topic. But it is. And the crosspost is valid, too. The key for it's validity is within those two topics (to which the original post connects): http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Host http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/License http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Copyright I should have posted them immediately. . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: HOST - Assembla Inc. Breakout - Copyright Violation by Mr. Andy Singleton
Ben Finney wrote: Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I admit it is difficult to detect that this post is in-topic. But it is. Really, it's not. If you want a voice, you already have your website. Mailing lists and other discussion forums have conventions about topic for a good reason. of course. http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Host http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/License http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Copyright I should have posted them immediately. No, you should have found a forum where you know that the topic is appropriate -- even if that restricts it to your own website. ??? my website is not a forum (and I'm currently reducing it to the minimum necessary information.) and once more: this topic _is_ appropriate for a python / ruby / java crosspost. really very important (if you don't look to much at the subject but the message contents). -- \ In general my children refuse to eat anything that hasn't | `\ danced on television. -- Erma Bombeck | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python to use a non open source bug tracker?
Giovanni Bajo wrote: Hello, I just read this mail by Brett Cannon: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-October/069139.html where the PSF infrastracture committee, after weeks of evaluation, recommends using a non open source tracker (called JIRA - never heard before of course) for Python itself. Does this smell Bitkeeper fiasco to anyone else than me? -- Giovanni Bajo Fascinating. The python foundation suggests a non-python non-open-source bugtracking tool for python. It's like saying: The python community is not able to produce the tools needed to drive development of python forward. Anyway. The whole selection process is intransparent. The commitee should have stated goals and requirements with a public verification of the tools against them. - http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Tracking . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python to use a non open source bug tracker?
Robert Kern wrote: Giovanni Bajo wrote: Hello, I just read this mail by Brett Cannon: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-October/069139.html where the PSF infrastracture committee, after weeks of evaluation, recommends using a non open source tracker (called JIRA - never heard before of course) for Python itself. Does this smell Bitkeeper fiasco to anyone else than me? No. ?? how do you know the answer?? anyway. - I don't think that a non-open-source system will be selected by the responsible people. Most possibly, they are aware about the basic requirements of an infrastructure - which is control: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Host . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Leave the putdowns in the Perl community, the Python world does not need them
metaperl wrote: I was shocked to see the personal insults hurled in this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/d0758cb9545cad4b I have been very pleased with Python developers regardless of skill levels in both the IRC channel as well as here - no hot attitudes. No holier than thou put ons. I was just sinking into the comradery and cooperative nature of this new powerful community when I saw that thread. Well, I hope that the fact that 99% of the Python community, from Guido von Rossum on down continues to exemplify how a language can be good and the people can be friendly and that the other 1% get inspired by their positivity and switch as well... I've reviewed a little the thread. I've not evaluated the possible use-cases of cgi.escape. The question is always: who start's the use of insults? I just noticed one thing: The OP wrote (refering to an implementationd detail, which btw. has possible resulted after many days of thought/trials in context of several use-cases): This seems to me to be dumb http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/d0758cb9545cad4b which could be interpreted as: the implementor seems to be dumb So, personally I think the implementor was free to reply bla bla bla, you idiot. This was not an insult. Just a gentle gesture (using similar wording as the OP). . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
Gabriel Genellina wrote: At Wednesday 27/9/2006 09:29, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: import sys def f(obj): if obj: print '::: ' + repr(obj) sys.displayhook = f Have you tried that? You have to filter out None, not *any* False value. you are right. 1 == 0 showed an empty response. this one seems to work: def f(obj): if obj is not None: print '::: ' + repr(obj) And notice that this replaces the output of *evaluated* expressions, not any print statement executed inside your code. Any simple solution for this? Displaying things interactively is not the same as executing a print statement inside the code - I feel right they are not considered the same thing. agree. print output goes to sys.stdout, you could replace it. wouldn't this replace all sdtout of every python programm? i've tried this one: sys.sdtout = f without success within IDLE. I've looked a little at the code, but get immediately demotivated seeing 72 files within a flat directroy: http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/Lib/idlelib/?rev=52013 Remember that packages have not existed forever... I've seen worse things :) ok, me too. but placing at minimum 2 directories like: core gui could simpify things already very much. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
James Stroud wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: ... Well, for example, the output (I'm indenting manually for visual clarity): print 'bob' : bob print [i for i in xrange(3)] : [0, 1, 2] Would create the following selection in doctest mode (again manually adding whitespace): print 'bob' bob print [i for i in xrange(3)] [0, 1, 2] http://docs.python.org/lib/module-doctest.html ok, I understand now. then, for consistency reasons, the : could become :::. doctest would need to get a tiny addition to be able to 'see' those :::. But, say for 'code copy' mode, this selection would be appended to the clipboard (again manually adding whitespace for clarity): print 'bob' print [i for i in xrange(3)] I understand. This way you could either make doctest blocks or copy code drafted in the interactive interpreter. I often get carried away and write complete useful functions in the interpreter then have to do commands like the following in vim: :.,+8s/^// to fix s and ellipses, etc., in the copied function. Or if I want to tweak a function I'm writing in the interpreter, I painfully copy it one line at a time. This may or may not be the best way to use the interpreter (to draft actual code) but I find myself doing it all of the time. I am wondering that this functionality (copy code) is not included within IDLE. It should be possible to add it quite simple. . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
Gabriel Genellina wrote: At Tuesday 26/9/2006 15:29, Ilias Lazaridis wrote: def f(obj): print '' + repr(obj) sys.displayhook = f I've placed this code within /Lib/sitecustomize.py, but have one strange result: ... t.sayHello() Hello world : None 1st: Hello world comes still on the beginning. 2nd: I got this None import sys def f(obj): if obj: print '::: ' + repr(obj) sys.displayhook = f The replacement should be a bit more complicated, taking None into account - see the original PEP for details http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0217/ And notice that this replaces the output of *evaluated* expressions, not any print statement executed inside your code. Any simple solution for this? I've looked a little at the code, but get immediately demotivated seeing 72 files within a flat directroy: http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/Lib/idlelib/?rev=52013 . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: String Pattern Matching: regex and Python regex documentation
Steve Holden wrote: Xah Lee wrote: ... This project was undertaken as a response to a challenge put forth to me with a $100 reward, on 2005-04-12 on comp.lang.python newsgroup. I never received the due reward. Your reading skills must be terrible. You never received the reward because it never became due. I offered you $100 if (I believe) five regular readers of c.l.py wrote me to say your version was an improvement on the original documentation. So far (it's now been over a year since your publication, IIRC) not one single person has written to me. So while your version of the docs may have some merit, it certainly doesn't fulfil the advertised requirements for the reward. Which therefore isn't due. This justification sounds rational. Possibly this should be published in a seperate topic, asking people to review the 2 doc's, whilst giving publically(!) their vote. Finally, all this can contribute to better python documentation (and, sorry, python doc's need _really_ a rework). -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
Robert Kern wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Steve Holden wrote: And I am wondering at your continual surprise when the rest of the world fails to share your perceptions. Doesn't this carry *any* information? not the rest of the world, but the rest of the python community. Remember back when you first came to comp.lang.python and I told you that this was not the community that you were looking for? http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-February/266629.html Good times. yes, good times, for the memory: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/PythonAudit but now I produce (using python): http://dev.lazaridis.com/base Anyways, against my better judgement, I will tell you that you can customize the output by replacing sys.displayhook with your own function: http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/module-sys.html import sys 1 1 def f(obj): print '' + repr(obj) sys.displayhook = f 1 1 I've placed this code within /Lib/sitecustomize.py, but have one strange result: from talker import * t = Talker() t.sayHello : bound method Talker.sayHello of talker.Talker instance at 0x00DEA198 t.sayHello() Hello world : None 1st: Hello world comes still on the beginning. 2nd: I got this None class Talker: def sayHello(self): print 'Hello world' def talk(self): self.sayHello() -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
Gabriel Genellina wrote: At Sunday 24/9/2006 18:55, Robert Kern wrote: Anyways, against my better judgement, I will tell you that you can customize the output by replacing sys.displayhook with your own function: http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/module-sys.html import sys def f(obj): print '' + repr(obj) sys.displayhook = f Sometimes I enable a similar approach on my sitecustomize.py, using the pprint module. But I don't *always* like the output format. Can you please show this approach using pprint? . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
James Stroud wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: ... I am wondering that other users are not annoyed by this reduced readability. I'm sure its quite unpopular to agree with you, but I do. I am tremendously annoyed the format of the interactive interpreter. Lovely would be output as you describe, but with the option, when selecting for copy-paste, to include the prompts and/or your suggested whitespace margin (e.g. select in doctest mode). James I am not sure I understand what you meen with the option. copy includes both, the and the : possibly you can elaborate a little, as this could be an important factor. - As for a solution to the output, just follow this ticket: http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/10 . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: IDLE has an output format like this: object type 'object' type type 'type' object.__class__ type 'type' object.__bases__ How can I customize it to become like that: object type 'object' type type 'type' object.__class__ type 'type' object.__bases__ or that: object : type 'object' type : type 'type' object.__class__ : type 'type' object.__bases__ (preferably without modifying code) I assume this is not possible. I am wondering that other users are not annoyed by this reduced readability. anyway. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDLE - Customizing output format
Steve Holden wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: IDLE has an output format like this: object type 'object' type type 'type' object.__class__ type 'type' object.__bases__ How can I customize it to become like that: object type 'object' type type 'type' object.__class__ type 'type' object.__bases__ or that: object : type 'object' type : type 'type' object.__class__ : type 'type' object.__bases__ (preferably without modifying code) I assume this is not possible. I am wondering that other users are not annoyed by this reduced readability. And I am wondering at your continual surprise when the rest of the world fails to share your perceptions. Doesn't this carry *any* information? not the rest of the world, but the rest of the python community. That's a big difference. So it looks that I have to code to change the output format. Reminds me 'good old days'. anyway. Indeed. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - New/Old Style Classes, build-in/extension types
Steve Holden wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Steve Holden wrote: ... Though of course the easiest way to enforce your classes to new style is to begin each module with __metaclass__ = type I assume placing this in the central site import (e.g. sitecustomize.py) would collapse python? (I don't want to try it, maybe someone has an isolated instance available for trials). I don't think it would collapse Python, but since each module requires its own __metaclass__ setting it certainly wouldn't change much. I understand. Thus I cannot set __metaclass__ = object on e.g. project-level or site-level, but only module-level. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
IDLE - Customizing output format
IDLE has an output format like this: object type 'object' type type 'type' object.__class__ type 'type' object.__bases__ How can I customize it to become like that: object type 'object' type type 'type' object.__class__ type 'type' object.__bases__ or that: object : type 'object' type : type 'type' object.__class__ : type 'type' object.__bases__ (preferably without modifying code) . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
CONSTRUCT - New/Old Style Classes, build-in/extension types
Another topic [1] has raised the need of a deeper teach-in. Where can I find _compact_ documentation about * Differece between New Style / Old Style Classes Are there any documents available (again: compact ones) which describe unification attemps subjecting * New Style Classes * Old Style Classes * Build In Types * Extension Types (note: I am aware about search engines. I ask for documentation which other developers have found useful) . [1] CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/4618ccef252c82cd -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - New/Old Style Classes, build-in/extension types
Ben Finney wrote: Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where can I find _compact_ documentation about Can you tell us what is lacking about the documentation at URL:http://www.python.org/doc/ ? Specifically, what problems have you found in understanding these topics from the documentation available at that site? Of course: Unifying types and classes in Python 2.2 Python Version: 2.2.3 Guido van Rossum This paper is an incomplete draft. I am soliciting feedback. If you find any problems, please write me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.2.3/descrintro/ - Weaknesses: * draft version * written by the system designer * size * code examples uncolored * code examples missaligned - I've looking for a _compact_ analysis of this topic, prefered in standard OO jargon. Around 100 lines and 1 diagramm (or 500 lines and 3 diagramms, but not more). . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - New/Old Style Classes, build-in/extension types
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: note: I am aware about search engines. but you're incapable of using them, or ? - I ask for documentation which other developers have found useful most recent Python books contains good discussions of the things you're asking for. maybe you should buy a book ? I'm interested in online resources, experiences etc.. Maybe you can clarify some things (for me and for readers): Do I need old style classes? Does the python standard library use old style classes? Have those old style classes any benefits? . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
Steve Holden wrote: Michele Simionato wrote: (I don't believe I am responding to a notorious troll ...) Believe it. You are. Ain't life a bitch? :-) One (bad) solution is to write in your sitecustomize.py the following: $ echo /usr/lib/python/sitecustomize.py import __builtin__ class Object(object): def debug(self): print 'some debug info' __builtin__.object = Object then you can do for instance class C(object): pass C().debug() some debug info All class inheriting from object will have the additional debug method. But sadly not the built-in types like int and str, which is what our trollish friend wants to do (for some reason best known to himself). Followup thread: [Watching this topic] CONSTRUCT - New/Old Style Classes, build-in/extension types http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/493d71f3dd09939b -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - New/Old Style Classes, build-in/extension types
Steve Holden wrote: Paul Boddie wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: [...] Have those old style classes any benefits? That you don't have to write the bizarre conceptual accident that is (object) when declaring a top-level class? Though of course the easiest way to enforce your classes to new style is to begin each module with __metaclass__ = type I assume placing this in the central site import (e.g. sitecustomize.py) would collapse python? (I don't want to try it, maybe someone has an isolated instance available for trials). __metaclass__ = type class X: pass ... X class '__main__.X' X() __main__.X object at 0x186c6f0c x = X() isinstance(x, object) True type(x), type(X) (class '__main__.X', type 'type') -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - New/Old Style Classes, build-in/extension types
Paul Boddie wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: ... (helpful comments) Have those old style classes any benefits? That you don't have to write the bizarre conceptual accident that is (object) when declaring a top-level class? This was most possibly done for back-compatibility reasons. Although introducing a change like this: def MyOldClass(oldstyle) def MyNewClass() an giving lazy developers the searchreplace patterns to migrate the code would have been of benefit. Possibly something for Python 2.6. Paul [1] http://www.python.org/doc/newstyle.html [2] http://www.python.org/doc/newstyle/ this page points to nice documentation (which I would place in top of the list!!!): http://www.cafepy.com/article/python_types_and_objects/ch03.html#id833463 - Guido's essay on new-style classes and should be your starting point. This article should _not_ be suggested as a starting point. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: String Pattern Matching: regex and Python regex documentation
[followup to c.l.py] Xah Lee wrote: the Python regex documentation is available at: http://xahlee.org/perl-python/python_re-write/lib/module-re.html Note that, i've just made the terms of use clear. Also, can anyone answer what is the precise terms of license of the official python documentation? The official python.org doc site is not clear. I would be interested in this information, too. Note also, that the regex syntax used by Perl is the same as Python. So, this section http://xahlee.org/perl-python/python_re-write/lib/re-syntax.html which contains clear explanation of regex syntax, will be of interest to Perl programers as well. ... Your tutorial has helped me to write my first regular expression: http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/changeset/60 your notes about documentation are interesting, too: http://xahlee.org/perl-python/re-write_notes.html I have some notes, too: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Docu - I would like to read more on your website, but the usability is terrible, mainly due to the missing navigation. What about an exchange? I assist you with the navigation. you will just need apache server-side-include and one file navigation.html, which will contail all of the navigation, very simple. And you make an real life example for a python regular expression use-case: i want to scan a text for this line: [[CustomAttributes(this=4,that=34,name='peter')]] picking this=4 ... and add the attributes to an object. object = addCustomAttributes(text) (ok, the regex part would be enouth). . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: SETUP - Introducing setuptools to a project without risk
Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
If I understood things right, setuptools extends the functionality of
distutils
Thus replacing within a setup.py:
from distutils.core import setup
with
try:
from setuptools import setup
except ImportError:
from distutils.core import setup
should have the following behaviour:
* does not change distutils functionality on any system (with or
without setuptools installed)
* adds setuptools functionality on a system with setuptools installed
This is especially important to obtain the convenient python setup.py
develop command.
Can someone confirm that the addition is non-critical? (I've not asked
on the setuptools list in order to get a neutral view of users).
context: http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/3743
After some conversation with the setuptools developer I've understood
that I had wrong assumptions.
setuptools alters the behaviour of the original distutils commands,
thus the migration in such a way could cause problems.
As suggested by the trac-team, the following is the workaround to use
the setuptools develop command:
python -c import setuptools; execfile('setup.py') develop
-
I think setuptools should be non-intrusive. All existent distutils
commands should remain unaltered, exept if the user configures it
differently. This would simplify migration to setuptools, as the
project lead does not have to worry about potential problems.
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Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
MonkeeSage wrote:
Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
where do I place this function...
The place where you want it to be.
...thus it becomes available within class Foo and all other Classes?
Anything defined in the top-level (i.e., the sys.modules['__main__']
namespace) is accessible in every scope...but I assume you already know
that.
no, I don't know it.
how do I define something into the top-level namespace? I assume I
could place it into the root-package of my project, into the __init__
function.
But how do I place it within my computers python installation (the big
init)?
You could also use a super-duper super class from which to derive all
your other classes, and add/replace any methods you want there:
class lazaridis(object):
...
I am aware of this technique.
But I want to modify existent classes, without touching their code.
Something like a central import?
That would probably be the most logical thing to do.
But again, I assume you already know all this, so why are you asking?
Is this part of the evaluation process?
I am not evaluating Python, I've started using it:
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Lang
http://dev.lazaridis.com/base
-
I've noticed some interesting code on you website:
class file(file):
def reopen(self, name=None, mode='w', bufsize=None):
...
fh = file('test.txt', 'rb')
print fh # open file 'test.txt', mode 'rb' at 0xb7c92814
fh.reopen(mode='wb')
http://rightfootin.blogspot.com/2006/09/ruby-reopen.html
does this mean that I can add a method to a class in a similar way with
ruby? (by using class class-name(class-name): )
but the limitation is that I cannot do this with the python build-in
types?:
http://rightfootin.blogspot.com/2006/08/of-rocks-and-reptiles.html
.
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Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
MonkeeSage wrote:
Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
no, I don't know it.
OK...so how do you evaluate a language when you don't know its basic
operations? Hmmm, sounds fishy.
The learning-process is an important part of the evaluation.
how do I define something into the top-level namespace? I assume I
could place it into the root-package of my project, into the __init__
function.
But how do I place it within my computers python installation (the big
init)?
When you just say:
def blah(): pass
Now 'blah' function is in the top-level namespace, just like global
variables. Or if it's in a different file, you'd say 'from blah import
*'. You honestly don't know this?!??
I know how to define it:
--- myBlahWithImport.py ---
from mylib import blah
if (__name__ == '__main__'):
blah()
--- end file ---
what I dont know is, how to negate the need of the import statement.
--- myBlah.py ---
if (__name__ == '__main__'):
blah()
--- end file ---
I am aware of this technique.
But I want to modify existent classes, without touching their code.
The only way to do this is to explicitly subclass the existent classes
with your own class and modify what you want there in your subclass
(see below), or use multiple inheritence as I suggested previously.
I've noticed some interesting code on you website:
class file(file):
def reopen(self, name=None, mode='w', bufsize=None):
...
fh = file('test.txt', 'rb')
print fh # open file 'test.txt', mode 'rb' at 0xb7c92814
fh.reopen(mode='wb')
http://rightfootin.blogspot.com/2006/09/ruby-reopen.html
does this mean that I can add a method to a class in a similar way with
ruby? (by using class class-name(class-name): )
Basically, yes. In ruby you can reopen base classes; in python you can
get the same effect by subclassing the base classes with the same name
as the base class, then instantiating all your objects as that class.
This is the exact same idea as a super-duper super class as I
mentioned above.
That's a part of the construct I was looking for.
but the limitation is that I cannot do this with the python build-in
types?:
http://rightfootin.blogspot.com/2006/08/of-rocks-and-reptiles.html
You can subclass buit-in types using the same name as the parent class.
So, that's a 2nd part of the constrcut I was looking for.
btw: from which class does int inherit?
In fact here is what I use:
## my little library to make python more OO
## i.e., to get rid of the top-level junk...
## or at least to hide it behind some pretty
## object attributes :)
##
## YMMV - and don't complain if you don't
## like it; I wrote it for ME, not you
##
## Jordan Callicoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]
## some global methods so we can use them
## to set up the class methods
... (many code I'll review at a later point)
It's not the most pythojnic way to do things, but it works for me.
Ps. I still have a hard time belieiving that after all the time you've
spent on comp.lang.lisp, comp.lang.ruby and comp.lang.python you still
don't understand these basic concepts...if that's really true, I would
never use your consulting service!
CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
This is not a basic concept.
Although in smaltalk and ruby is very simple.
But I've selected to use Python.
.
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Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
George Sakkis wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: I like to add a method writeDebug(self, msg) to all (or the most possible) classes in the system. How do I do this? * with new style classes * with old style classes Short answer: you can't do it for builtin or extension types: list.writeDebug = lambda msg: You'd wish ... TypeError: can't set attributes of built-in/extension type 'list' Longer asnwer: Make it a function instead of a method. This function could try to call the respective method, and as a fallback it would have hardcoded what to do for each supported class, something like: def writeDebug(obj, msg): try: return obj.writeDebug(msg) except AttributeError: if isinstance(obj,list): # list msg elif isinstance(obj,tuple): # tuple msg ... else: # default object msg If you insist though that you'd rather not use functions but only methods, tough luck; you're better off with Ruby. I insist on methods, and It seems that I stay with Python. The effort for me to rework python to become more OO is much lesser, than the effort I would have to rework Ruby to become more (this and that). http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Lang And I've already started to like 2 things on python: * the missing end statement and * (I don't believe I write this) enforced indentation. . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: I understand that I can use __metaclass__ to create a class which modifies the behaviour of another class. How can I add this metaclass to *all* classes in the system? (In ruby I would alter the Class class) I got confused from the discussion about __metaclass__. possibly a little more practical. I like to add a method writeDebug(self, msg) to all (or the most possible) classes in the system. How do I do this? * with new style classes * with old style classes . http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
Diez B. Roggisch wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: I understand that I can use __metaclass__ to create a class which modifies the behaviour of another class. How can I add this metaclass to *all* classes in the system? (In ruby I would alter the Class class) I got confused from the discussion about __metaclass__. possibly a little more practical. I like to add a method writeDebug(self, msg) to all (or the most possible) classes in the system. How do I do this? * with new style classes * with old style classes OMFG. For asking the question (paraphrased) why do you want to do this, Mr. Spealman received an http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Please#OffTopicPosts But now you do exactly that - give more details. Maybe this could teach you the lesson that the variance of input you get here to your questions is worth considering? But I've got the wicked feeling that this won't happen... I've not given more details, but less. Just simplified my request. . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
MonkeeSage wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: How do I do this? It's easy: def writeDebug(msg): print I do not debug things, I _evaluate_ with professionals on the industries! See ticket 547!\n \ Oh yeah, and %s % msg where do I place this function... ... class Foo: writeDebug(how can I configure the interpreter for understand Klingon participals and noun-phrases? Must I rectify the standard dictionaries first?) ...thus it becomes available within class Foo and all other Classes? Something like a central import? . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
Steve Holden wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: ... http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-pymeta.html I am not so much interested in old-style, as is start production with python 2.4 (possibly even with python 2.5). The fact remains that you won't be able to affect the built-in classes such as int and str - they are hard-coded in C (for CPython, at least), and so their metaclass is also implied and cannot be changed. ...except in C. I assume the root class should be available/changeable in C, too. Do I have to change the sources directly, or does python provide C-level-extension/modication mechanisms, which can be applied to core-level classes, too? Is the Python Object Model documented anywhere in a diagram, something similar to this?: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/RubyObjectModel . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
Calvin Spealman wrote: On 18 Sep 2006 20:23:03 -0700, Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Holden wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: ... http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-pymeta.html I am not so much interested in old-style, as is start production with python 2.4 (possibly even with python 2.5). The fact remains that you won't be able to affect the built-in classes such as int and str - they are hard-coded in C (for CPython, at least), and so their metaclass is also implied and cannot be changed. ...except in C. I assume the root class should be available/changeable in C, too. Do I have to change the sources directly, or does python provide C-level-extension/modication mechanisms, which can be applied to core-level classes, too? Is the Python Object Model documented anywhere in a diagram, something similar to this?: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/RubyObjectModel What could you possibly want to do this for so badly that you would shun all alternatives and even resort to hacking up the runtime at the C-level to redefine core types in non-standard and unpredictable ways?! Seriously, please give a good reason for every doing this. I can't imagine there is any way it would justify all this in the face of just looking for an alternative. You aren't trying to use python, at this point, you are trying to fork it. http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Please#OffTopicPosts . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: EyeDB Object Database (ODBMS) - Python wrapper
GinTon wrote: EyeDB is a free ODBMS based on the ODMG 3 specification with programming interfaces for C++ and Java. It is very powerfull, mature, safe and stable. In fact, it was developed in 1992 for the Genome View project althought rewritten in 1994, and has been used in a lot of bioinformatics projects http://www.eyedb.org/ I've added this very interesting database to the selection case: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Persist Python does not have any programming interface to ODBMS and I believe that it would be very interesting that the Python community could access to a great object database like this one. If somebody is interested could to using SIP as Python wrapper. PyQT4 bindings were made with SIP http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/sip/ These are the conclusions of several Python wrappers that shows that SIP generates the fastest wrappers: http://people.web.psi.ch/geus/talks/europython2004_geus.pdf * Manual wrapping is still fastest and most versatile * SIP, Boost and Babel generate native extension modules with low overhead * SWIG-generated modules rely on pure Python wrapper module and introduce a large overhead * Wrapper tool highlights: - SIP generates the fastest wrappers - SWIG is mature and well documented - Boost.Python most elegant integration of C++ and Python - Babel supports languages as both target and source I will take this information in account when selecting a binding: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Binding Possibly more important that speed is the simplicity, e.g. how simple is it to produce the wrapper and how simple is it to update the wrapper. If you want to know more about ODBMS here you have some interesting links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_database http://www.dacs.dtic.mil/techs/oodbms2/oodbms-toc.shtml http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/5/3/32853/11281 http://www.odbms.org/introduction_whenODBMS.html http://archive.devx.com/dbzone/articles/sf0801/sf0801-1.asp -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
I understand that I can use __metaclass__ to create a class which modifies the behaviour of another class. How can I add this metaclass to *all* classes in the system? (In ruby I would alter the Class class) . http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Adding Functionality to the Overall System
Damjan wrote: I understand that I can use __metaclass__ to create a class which modifies the behaviour of another class. How can I add this metaclass to *all* classes in the system? (In ruby I would alter the Class class) You'd have to set __metaclass__ = whatever at the top of each module whose classes are to get the new behavior. I think '__metaclass__ = whatever' affects only the creation of classes that would otherwise be old-style classes? It seems so: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2003-June/166572.html You can't alter classes which you don't control or create in your code. I remeber I've seen an implementation of import_with_metaclass somewhere on IBM's developerworks. I didn't quite undersntad it though. http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-pymeta.html I am not so much interested in old-style, as is start production with python 2.4 (possibly even with python 2.5). . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
SETUP - Introducing setuptools to a project without risk
If I understood things right, setuptools extends the functionality of distutils Thus replacing within a setup.py: from distutils.core import setup with try: from setuptools import setup except ImportError: from distutils.core import setup should have the following behaviour: * does not change distutils functionality on any system (with or without setuptools installed) * adds setuptools functionality on a system with setuptools installed This is especially important to obtain the convenient python setup.py develop command. Can someone confirm that the addition is non-critical? (I've not asked on the setuptools list in order to get a neutral view of users). context: http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/3743 . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT -
Steve Holden wrote: Simon Forman wrote: Fredrik Lundh wrote: Simon Forman wrote: I'm sorry, your post makes very little sense. you're somewhat new here, right ? ;-) Yah, I've been posting here about three months now. Why, did I miss something? :-) Yes: the previous posts from the same poster. Ilias Lazaridis' communications can be a little obscure, to say the least, and it's apparent that his approach to language evaluaation doesn't emphasize community experience too heavily. Still, it takes all sorts to make a newsgroup ... I'm not evaluation python anymore, I've selected it: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Lang At this point, I just try to make it fit my personal requirements: http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/6 As a flexible dynamic language, python should allow me to change it a little. but, as said: What I would need to know is: a) what would be the correct term for identifier? b) is there a standard way to implement such an access mechanism in an generic way? c) is there an advanced mechanism available, which would allow to implement a prefix (e.g. %name) You've anwered question b). Additionally, I had read an PEP which referenced this case, but cannot find it again. It would be nice to have some answers to the topic, thus this thread has at least some value for people finding it in archives (those which agree with me that __name__ has a low readability). . -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao 1.0.0-alpha is released
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, It is a pleasure to announce in this mailing list the newly released Dao. This is the first release after the Dao interpreter being ... Two modules are also released along with the virtual machine: DaoMySQL and DaoPyhon. DaoPython is particularly interesting, because it allows Python modules to be loaded by Dao, then Python variables, functions and classes can be used conviniently in Dao scripts. ... For more detail about this release: please visit http://www.xdao.org, and http://xdao.org/dokuwiki/. the documentation looks nice! hope you've implemented most of my suggestions subjecting reflection. Whenever I have the time, I will take a closer look and check dao against this one: http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ Your suggestions and comments are extremely welcome! Limin FU . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Python's way of Ruby's alias_method
Maric Michaud wrote: Le Vendredi 09 Juin 2006 20:06, Ilias Lazaridis a écrit : the code below works, but has the limitation that I cannot import the syncdb_hook within django.core.management. In [4]: from b import CONS In [5]: import b In [6]: b.CONS = 3 In [7]: CONS Out[7]: 5 In [8]: from b import CONS In [9]: CONS Out[9]: 3 So, if you change one module name, a function or a class or a constant, you must do it before it is imported, or you must reload modules using it. But either are not always possible, and the later is not what you want to achieve here as it will re-execute all initialisation code in those modules. But think of that, a function is hopefully an object in python, hmmm : In [1]: from temp import func In [2]: func(5) Out[2]: 5 In [3]: def g(s) : return s*2 ...: In [4]: func.func_code = g.func_code In [5]: func(5) Out[5]: 10 hey, that should work ! Great Construct! Much flexibility! I'll try the implementation tomorrow. - The actual Versions of the hooks can be found here: http://case.lazaridis.com/browser/django/rework/syncdb_hook.py?rev=7 http://case.lazaridis.com/browser/django/rework/startproject_hook.py?rev=13 This construct has helped to simplify nearly all simplification goals: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Python's way of Ruby's alias_method
Maric Michaud wrote: Le Jeudi 08 Juin 2006 14:28, Ilias Lazaridis a écrit : Another possibility is to enlink (hook?) the functionality into an existent function Is there any way (beside a patch) to alter the behaviour to an existing function. Is ther a python construct similar to the alias_method of Ruby: No, there is no special construct to do this, but we do things very similar every day in Zope, it's called monkey patch : #patch_service.py from toto import service def my_impl(self, *args) : old_result = self._old_method(*args) # ... return new_result if not hasattr(service, '_old_method') : service._old_method = service.method service.method = my_impl once this file is imported, all future calls to method of service instances will use my_impl. Ok, just a small problem when a _function_ is to be hooked. Looking a the code in the debugger shows that the function syncdb is correctly overridden. But when the code returns, syncdb has again it's original value. Can I import syncdb by reference instead by value, thus the change 'survives'? #-- #syncdb_hook.py from django.rework.evolve import evolvedb from django.core.management import syncdb def syncdb_new(*args) : evolvedb() syncdb_result = syncdb_old(*args) return syncdb_result if syncdb != syncdb_new: syncdb_old = syncdb syncdb = syncdb_new . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Python's way of Ruby's alias_method
Duncan Booth wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: #patch_service.py from toto import service def my_impl(self, *args) : old_result = self._old_method(*args) # ... return new_result if not hasattr(service, '_old_method') : service._old_method = service.method service.method = my_impl once this file is imported, all future calls to method of service instances will use my_impl. Ok, just a small problem when a _function_ is to be hooked. Looking a the code in the debugger shows that the function syncdb is correctly overridden. But when the code returns, syncdb has again it's original value. Can I import syncdb by reference instead by value, thus the change 'survives'? The difference is that Maric imported the module. To make the change affect the original model you have to access the function as an attribute of its module, not by importing the function from the module. ok, I understand. the code below works, but has the limitation that I cannot import the syncdb_hook within django.core.management. There is no way to import/get syncdb but mutable? #syncdb_hook.py from django.rework.evolve import evolvedb from django.core.management import syncdb from django.core import management def syncdb_new(*args) : evolvedb() syncdb_result = syncdb_old(*args) return syncdb_result if syncdb != syncdb_new: syncdb_old = syncdb syncdb = syncdb_new if management.syncdb != syncdb_new: syncdb_old = management.syncdb management.syncdb = syncdb_new works fine. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Python's way of Ruby's alias_method
Slawomir Nowaczyk wrote: On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 15:28:39 +0300 Ilias Lazaridis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: # *IMPORT* # # I would like to know, if this construct is valid, or if it can # result in problems (that I do not see as a newcomer): The intricacies of import are far beyond me, but FWIW I do not see anything wrong in this code. # Is there any way (beside a patch) to alter the behaviour to an # existing function. You can just assign new function to the old name. There are a few loops to hop through if you want to alter the behaviour of an existing *method*... There is an example -- I do not know if a good one -- here: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/52192 This looks intresting, especially the comment, although I do not understand what is meant by creates a cycle in the object. There is a Better Way to Add Methods To Classes, Moshe Zadka, 2001/03/15 This method creates a cycle in the object for no reason at all. The following function will add any function to an instance in a cycle free way: def add_method(self, method, name=None): if name is None: name = method.func_name class new(self.__class__): pass setattr(new, name, method) self.__class__ = new Use as follows: def pretty_str(self): pass add_method(C(), pretty_str, '__str__') -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
CONSTRUCT - Python's way of Ruby's alias_method
I have a few small questions subjecting python functionality, most importantly the alias_method. - *IMPORT* I would like to know, if this construct is valid, or if it can result in problems (that I do not see as a newcomer): 1082try: 1083from django.rework.evolve import evolvedb 1084except ImportError: 1085def evolvedb(): 1086Evolve Command Dummy 1087print 'Command evolvedb not imported' 1088evolvedb.args ='' - *PATCHING* A second problem is, how to make the setup for users (testers) more convenient. Is there e.g. any mechanism to apply a patch in an automated manner (e.g. using a python library)? - *ALIAS_METHOD* The django commands are hard-coded: http://code.djangoproject.com/browser/django/trunk/django/core/management.py#L1180 thus elegant/dynamic additions of commands seem not possible. Another possibility is to enlink (hook?) the functionality into an existent function Is there any way (beside a patch) to alter the behaviour to an existing function. Is ther a python construct similar to the alias_method of Ruby: (example from an simple evolution support for a ruby orm) #-- # use alias_method to enlink the code #-- class SqliteAdapter alias_method :old_create_table, :create_table def create_table(*args) table_evolve(*args) result = old_create_table(*args) return result end end http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/og-evolve.rb - - - If anyone is interested to verify the results in order to stabelize the simple schema evolution support for django, please review the results here: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoProductEvaluation http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution http://case.lazaridis.com/browser/django/rework/evolve.py http://case.lazaridis.com/browser/django/rework/add_evolvedb_command.diff . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Python's way of Ruby's alias_method
Tim N. van der Leeuw wrote: [...] http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Please . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Python's way of Ruby's alias_method
Maric Michaud wrote: Le Jeudi 08 Juin 2006 15:15, Duncan Booth a écrit : but the more usual way is just to call the original method directly in the base class. class SqliteAdapter(BaseClass): def create_table(self, *args) self.table_evolve(*args) result = BaseClass.create_table(self, *args) return result Yeah, this the right way to reuse ancestor's implementation of a method. If that isn't what you are trying to achieve you'll have to explain more. I'm not a ruby programmer, but I understood it like this : the prupose is to modify the behavior of an existing third-party class, in all application (even in existing third party modules), without any code modifications (traditional patch) in those modules. yes, you've understood right. Your proposal is not as good here, assuming BaseClass is defined in module toto, you can still do toto.BaseClass = SqliteAdapter, but you must ensure that this code is imported before any other where classes inherit from BaseClass. The one I porpose in my other post is robust, several packages can even patch the same method with no side effects. Your suggestion is most possibly the relevant construct. I'll post a note after changing the implementation. Thank's a lot! . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CONSTRUCT - Python's way of Ruby's alias_method
Duncan Booth wrote:
Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
I would like to know, if this construct is valid, or if it can result in
problems (that I do not see as a newcomer):
1082try:
1083from django.rework.evolve import evolvedb
1084except ImportError:
1085def evolvedb():
1086Evolve Command Dummy
1087print 'Command evolvedb not imported'
1088evolvedb.args =''
The only real problem here is that if django.rework.evolve imports
something else which doesn't exist you get your fallback code instead of
reporting the error. In other words there is a chance that you could mask a
deeper problem.
If this worries you then you could do:
try:
from django.rework.evolve import evolvedb
except ImportError, e:
if str(e).rsplit(' ')[-1] != 'django.rework.evolve':
raise
... rest of code here ...
I thin I understand.
If the exception is _not_ caused by 'django.rework.evolve', then it will
be raised, thus I can see what caused it.
Very nice!
.
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CENSORSHIP - Django Project (Schema Evolution Support)
[posted publicly to comp.lang.python, with email notification to 6
recipients relevant to the topic]
I have implemented a simple schema evolution support for django, due to
a need for a personal project. Additionally, I've provided an Audit:
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoAudit
As a result, I was censored ('banned' from the development list)
My initial non-public complain [1] about censorship on django devel,
sent to six relevant project recipients [2] remained unanswered.
The only 'answer' I got was an additional censorship on the _user_ list,
which is _completely_ unjustified, as I've just requested comments to my
code-level working results:
http://groups.google.com/group/django-users/browse_frm/thread/88dcc4946c3bd7b2
-
I understand that the community was possibly confused due to my past
evaluations. But this gives in _no_ way the right to attack me
personally and to apply censorship.
Django was originally created in late 2003 at World Online, the Web
division2 of the Lawrence Journal-World newspaper in Lawrence, Kansas
http://code.djangoproject.com/browser/django/trunk/AUTHORS#L128
The Django Project should really avoid such non-liberal actions in future.
Please enable my access to the user list, thus I can complete my work.
Thank you.
-
P.S.:
If anyone is interested to verify the results, in order to stabelize the
simple schema evolution support for django, please review the results
here:
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoProductEvaluation
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution
http://case.lazaridis.com/browser/django/rework/evolve.py
http://case.lazaridis.com/browser/django/rework/add_evolvedb_command.diff
-
Sidenote:
I've implemented the above as the suggestions from the django project
(manually create an execute ALTER TABLE statements) would hinder me to
develop my application incrementally:
If you do care about deleting data, you'll have to execute the ALTER
TABLE statements manually in your database. That's the way we've always
done it, because dealing with data is a very sensitive operation that
we've wanted to avoid automating. That said, there's some work being
done to add partially automated database-upgrade functionality.
http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/faq/#if-i-make-changes-to-a-model-how-do-i-update-the-database
-
-
-
[1]
Date : 2006-06-03 08:32
Subject: pj.audit.django.censorship/offer.
*SUMMARY*
* Censorship on django-developer
* Personal Projects
[...] - (non-public commercial part omitted)
*CENSORSHIP*
I would like to know for which reason I was banned from the developers
list.
Django comes from an newspaper environment, and I think you should
really evaluate your information twice before you *censor* someone on
the list, who has posted only topics relevant to django development in
order to fulfill several tasks for an Audit:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoAudit
Is this here really enough to justify censorship?:
http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/msg/fbb5a3aafe39d239
Please, Mr. Holovaty, enable my access to the development-list again
thus I can finalize my work.
-
*PERSONAL_PROJECTS*
Instead of blocking me without any justification from the
development-list, why don't you just look on my website, where I list
some links (including that one found' and explain the project:
http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/index.html
I've worked several years on this Core Project, which is finalized,
and in 2006 I've started to define the resulting services:
http://lazaridis.com/pj/index.html
As stated, I use django for a personal project (which I hope will secure
me some incomings). The evolve functionality was necessary in order to
start with development of my project. At the same time I made the audit
publicly, thus other people can benefit from my experiences.
Additionally, I look for a reference customer. Although I had planned to
finalize the Audit first and then to contact you, the missing access to
the developer list forces me to change my schedule.
[...] - (non-public commercial part omitted)
[2]
The recipients were take for the following file:
http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/faq/#who-s-behind-this
and from this file:
http://code.djangoproject.com/browser/django/trunk/AUTHORS
.
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Re: CENSORSHIP - Django Project (Schema Evolution Support)
Diez B. Roggisch wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilias_Lazaridis What has this wikipedia entry to do with the topic here? What is the credibility and value of the provided wikipedia entry? Let's review the editor's list: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ilias_Lazaridisaction=history Ubernostrum Howdy. I'm James Bennett, a web developer[...]and then moved to Lawrence, Kansas where I now work for World Online, the online division of the Lawrence Journal-World and home of the Django web framework. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ubernostrum Gldnspud - no profile available - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gldnspud - Note to readers: Further links and explanations about my past evaluation work are publicized on my website: http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/index.html http://lazaridis.com/core/index.html Those evaluations are now closed, and I try to focus on personal projects, whilst contribution results back to other users in the open source way. - I try now to apply such Requirements Compliancy Audits in a more decent way: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki For some reason, the Django Project Community and leadership has reacted extremely against my findings, writings and even code-level contributions. At this point I don't know why. But possibly I will do so shortly. - -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django Quick Start with Schema Evolution Support
[Replying to comp.lang.python, due to censorship on Django User]
[additional notification of poster via email, as medium is changed]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
yep. i feel particularly hosed for trying to work with you offline to
synchronize our efforts.
I don't think that telling me when your project starts and stops can be
called working with me offline.
and even more retarded for the time i spent and
help i offered regarding your web site design, resume and general how to
better present yourself as a consulting business.
You suggestion subjecting the term failure was a positive one and I
have reacted.
But again, I think you exaggerate about the amount of time invested.
(overall conversation: 7 messages of yours, 20 lines, ~3 lines/message)
(considering i've been
a fulltime programmer/consultant for many years now and you were claiming
to just be starting out)
I've just (Jan 2006) re-started with the _new_ services.
however i am far from your largest detractor here. and i don't wish to
be, so i won't contribute any more to this discussion. this will be my
last post here regarding you.
I've not asked you to post about me, but about the SoC Schema Evolution
Project.
See further below:
-- derek
p.s. for the record i'm not totally convinced you're an intentional troll.
i suspect you're just socially and professionally inept. but with your
history on other listservs, it seems that you are incapable of learning
how to better interact with others. so a rose by any other name... the
effect is the same.
= {i suspect you're just socially and professinally inept}
I better don't take you as an example how to better interact with others.
And btw: why speculating, instead of just reading the explanations?:
http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/index.html
i recommend to all ignoring ilias here.
Possibly to avoid the basic question?
My question to you was basically:
May I ask you to point my to a resource which shows your current plans,
results etc.?
Mine is here:
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution
And with a little support of the team, it could be now a stable working
temporary solution, and a reference/foundation for your SoC project.
Derek Anderson wrote:
i believe it's time for...
Mr. Anderson,
we had some private conversation at the start of my work with Django,
where I had answered all of your questions.
Based on this, you should have a better rating about me, especially when
knowing my private situation (or at least some indicators).
-
You are the Student which will execute the Google Summer of Code
Project, which will implement the Schema Evolution Support for Django,
http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/SchemaEvolution
May I ask you to point my to a resource which shows your current plans,
results etc.?
As you have seen, I have provided within a few days something what the
django project and its community has not provided since a _very_ long
time.
A working draft version of a Schema Evolution Support for Django:
http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution
-
You should understand that it looks really somehow, that especially you
talk so loud about a 'troll'.
Finally, you should be aware of something: all of your writings were
publically archived.
___
/| /| | |
||__|| | Please don't |
/ O O\__ feed |
/ \ the trolls|
/ \ \|
/ _\ \ --
/|\\ \ ||
/ | | | |\/ ||
/ \|_|_|/ |__||
/ / \|| ||
/ | | /|| --|
| | |// | --|
* _| |_|_|_| | \-/
*-- _--\ _ \ // |
/ _ \\ _ // |/
* / \_ /- | - | |
* ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c
-- derek :)
.
--
http://lazaridis.com
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
Django users group.
To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/django-users
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Re: Django Quick Start with Schema Evolution Support
Steve Holden wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: [Replying to comp.lang.python, due to censorship on Django User] [additional notification of poster via email, as medium is changed] And yet you still don't see why people call you a troll? Missing liberal qualities? http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/wiki/LiberalProjectDefinition This is completely inappropriate for comp.lang.python. Please take it elsewhere. This is perfectly appropriate for comp.lang.python, as it is the closest usenet group for django. This newsgroup is not a proxy for any other group who may have tired of your postings, and is not an arbitration forum for disputes. no. It's a place to discuss python. And it's a place to continue discussions which were censored within other media of the python domain. - sidenote: I forgot to post the link to the original article: http://groups.google.com/group/django-users/msg/710f456a3c1f1ee5 regards Steve -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django Quick Start with Schema Evolution Support
Brian wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: snip http://lazaridis.com I would agree with you that this is a place to discuss python. However, your posts primarily deal with your expulsion from another group. Instead of discussing that, why don't your discuss the python technicalities of your project and leave the rest alone since we want to hear about the former and not the later. Brian thank you. - *IMPORT* I would like to know, if this construct is valid, or if it can result in problems: 1082try: 1083from django.rework.evolve import evolvedb 1084except ImportError: 1085def evolvedb(): 1086Evolve Command Dummy 1087print 'Command evolvedb not imported' 1088evolvedb.args ='' - *PATCHING* A second problem is, how to make the setup for users (testers) more convenient. Is there e.g. any mechanism to apply a patch in an automated manner (e.g. using a python library)? - *ALIAS_METHOD* The django commands are hard-coded: http://code.djangoproject.com/browser/django/trunk/django/core/management.py#L1180 thus elegant/dynamic additions of commands seem not possible. Another possibility is to enlink (hook?) the functionality into an existent function Is there any way (beside a patch) to alter the behaviour to an existing function. Is ther a python construct similar to the alias_method of Ruby: (example from an simple evolution support for a ruby orm) #-- # use alias_method to enlink the code #-- class SqliteAdapter alias_method :old_create_table, :create_table def create_table(*args) table_evolve(*args) result = old_create_table(*args) return result end end http://lazaridis.com/case/persist/og-evolve.rb - - - If anyone is interested to verify the results in order to stabelize the simple schema evolution support for django, please review the results here: http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoProductEvaluation http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoSchemaEvolution http://case.lazaridis.com/browser/django/rework/evolve.py http://case.lazaridis.com/browser/django/rework/add_evolvedb_command.diff . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django Quick Start with Schema Evolution Support
Steve Holden wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Steve Holden wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: ... This thread is now technical. Thank you for your comments. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PUDGE - Project Status, Alternative Solutions
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Ilias Lazaridis wrote: What is going on with the pudge project? Any chance to get an comment on this? After a little bit off-list discussion, I understand that many python documentation projects stop at some point, and that efforts are in general not very synchronized. Small overview here (work in progress): http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Docgen - btw: Still, the pudge.general list needs to be activated!!! Mr. Patrik O'Brien (Orbtech LLC) had told me that there is no similar tool available within the python domain, thus I have invested some effort to create a Website template, and to enable pudge to generate colored code: http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo/wiki/SchevoWebsiteReview I like to reuse the results for personal projects, but I am wondering that the pudge email-list is death (since the server update) - and that no one of the project reacts to personal and public postings. Additionally, the schevo project removes the pudge stuff, mscott, the developer which has introduced pudge removes it again (although this was done with several other tools in the past, too): http://schevo.org/trac/changeset/2127 - Is there a similar tool available, with which I can generate python documentation / websites or both based on templates and reST? Or an overview of such tools? I mean such an organized tool is essential for developmente with python. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: CENSORSHIP - Django Project (Schema Evolution Support)
Rene Pijlman wrote: Ilias Lazaridis: What is the credibility and value of the provided wikipedia entry? Wikipedia always tells the Absolute Truth, because if it doesn't, we can edit it and fix it right away. fascinating! . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: HOST - dreamhost.com / Liberality (Hosting, Basic Requirement)
Tim X wrote: [...] I think the other point here is that everyone *assumes* Xah's account was cancelled simply because of a campaign to report him for spamming multiple newsgroups. I suspect there were other factors involved. for all anyone knows, the provider might have been getting complaints from people about Xah's account, website, e-mail and newsgorup posting for ages and just decided it was more trouble than it was worth to keep him as a customer. [...] On usernet, I think the secret is believe nothing, question everything and remember, on the net, nobody knows your a dog! I understand what you mean. I've written in my message: It _seems_ that Mr. Xah Les's account was terminated by dreamhost.com because of To dreamhost.com: [...] Additionally, it would be gentle if your company would make a _public_ statement subjecting this case, thus any interested party can verify the validity of the statements. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee wrote: Thanks to the great many people who has written to my ISP in support of [...] As to dreamhost my webhosting company canceling my account, i will try to reason with them, and see what is the final outcome. They have the legal right to kick me because in the contract that allowed them to do so with 30 days advanced noticed and without cause. However, it is my interest and my right, if they actually do kick me in the end, i'll try to contact Electronic Frontier Foundation and Better Business bureau for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return the favor.) [...] Xah Lee wrote: [...] I wrote some full detail here: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your help is appreciated. Thank you. HOST - dreamhost.com / Liberality (Hosting, Basic Requirement) http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/25618913752c457a . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
HOST - dreamhost.com / Liberality (Hosting, Basic Requirement)
crossposted to 5 groups, which are affected by this case. followup not applicable. - I am currently selecting a Hosting Provider / Project Host... http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/Host For this larger scale project... http://case.lazaridis.com/multi - An incident within usenet has reminded me to include a very Basic Requirement, which is Terms of Service / Liberality. - The incident: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html It _seems_ that Mr. Xah Les's account was terminated by dreamhost.com because of a) the inability of several people to detect the interconnections within writings which lead to perfectly valid cross-posts within the usenet. b) the non-liberal and essentially non-professional way of how dreamhost.com deals with abuse complaints. - The accusations of dreamhost.com are simply wrong. The behaviour of dreamhost.com looks like a case of selective ruling, whilst using a right defined within the Terms of Service to terminate accounts essentially at free will. Can someone trust his business or even his private activities to a hosting company, which cancels accounts in such a way? I do not: http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DreamhostAudit But possibly I am wrong, and all this is just a missunderstanding. - To dreamhost.com: You should install an autoresponder to your abuse email, which reminds people that it is * nearly inpossible to rate the content posted to usenet * neally inpossible to detect validity of cross-posts especially within complex analytical/philosophical writings * other important facts People can then decide if they still wish to send the abuse complain (e.g. can follow a link within the autoresponder). You should additionally make a clear statement, that you do _not_ have the right to cancel acounts _without_ any reason, and that you do _not_ intervene into a persons right to speek within the usenet, without a clear and undoubtable proof of abuse (e.g. court decision, or at least verfication of independend entities or mediators). Additionally, it would be gentle if your company would make a _public_ statement subjecting this case, thus any interested party can verify the validity of the statements. - To Mr. Xah Lee: You should change to a more liberal services provider, one which plays in the Major League and which respects free speech. Such a provider would just reject such ridiculous abuse complaints. If, for any reason, you are not able to switch to another hosting provider, please let me know. I will see what I can do for you to keep your free speech up. Additionally, I would like to suggest you to not invest too much time into all this. Better use this time to find people and to react in an organized manner. - To the complaining people: To which 'species' do you belong? http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/species.html Setting up an thread filter: http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/filter.html I have seldom seen a more ridiculous argumentation-line than then spam/abuse one. - To anyone: Any form of censorship and suppression of freedom of expression should be kept out of from open-source projects and from usenet. It is the within the responsibility of every entity (including commercial companies) to act against it. http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/wiki/LiberalProjectDefinition - - - . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: PUDGE - Project Status, Alternative Solutions
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: What is going on with the pudge project? Any chance to get an comment on this? Mr. Patrik O'Brien (Orbtech LLC) had told me that there is no similar tool available within the python domain, thus I have invested some effort to create a Website template, and to enable pudge to generate colored code: http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo/wiki/SchevoWebsiteReview I like to reuse the results for personal projects, but I am wondering that the pudge email-list is death (since the server update) - and that no one of the project reacts to personal and public postings. Additionally, the schevo project removes the pudge stuff, mscott, the developer which has introduced pudge removes it again (although this was done with several other tools in the past, too): http://schevo.org/trac/changeset/2127 - Is there a similar tool available, with which I can generate python documentation / websites or both based on templates and reST? Or an overview of such tools? I mean such an organized tool is essential for developmente with python. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
PUDGE - Project Status, Alternative Solutions
What is going on with the pudge project? Mr. Patrik O'Brien (Orbtech LLC) had told me that there is no similar tool available within the python domain, thus I have invested some effort to create a Website template, and to enable pudge to generate colored code: http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo/wiki/SchevoWebsiteReview I like to reuse the results for personal projects, but I am wondering that the pudge email-list is death (since the server update) - and that no one of the project reacts to personal and public postings. Additionally, the schevo project removes the pudge stuff, mscott, the developer which has introduced pudge removes it again (although this was done with several other tools in the past, too): http://schevo.org/trac/changeset/2127 - Is there a similar tool available, with which I can generate python documentation / websites or both based on templates and reST? Or an overview of such tools? I mean such an organized tool is essential for developmente with python. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Software Needs Philosophers
Mark Shelor wrote: Xah Lee wrote: Programming languages are religions. For a long while now I've been ... ... Is there really something new out there? I would argue that software needs innovation more than it needs philosophers. software needs innovation. innovation needs philosophy. philosophy needs openness. - For readers which like a more compact overview of LISP (and its surrounding community): Showcase for: how the human factor can negate, eliminate and even reverse the evolution of a Programming Language System. http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/lisp.html - Note: the results of this reviews are currently moved into several projects: http://lazaridis.com/pj http://case.lazaridis.com/multi . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
[OT] - Requesting Comments for Open Source Rework Business Concept
You may remember the request for comments at the start of this year: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/b0e3487ef8b13eed http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/b0e3487ef8b13eed - The services of Lazaridis System Design have reached pre-release state and will be soon released to the public: http://lazaridis.com/services/index.html You can find the overall picture of how the services interconnect with other company activities here: http://lazaridis.com/pj/index.html The target groups for the services are mainly: * Open Source Projects * Individuals and Vendors (intrested in open source projects) * Commercial Vendors (proprietary systems) I would like to ask for feedback subjecting the business concept especialy in the context of Open Source Projects. You can reply publically or with private email. - The initial plan is the following: The Initial Analysis week has a low rate (trial rate). This is to allow Vendors Projects to try the services for a lower investment: http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/graph/analysis.html Small Scale Open Source Projects can benefit from very special prices, which can reach 1/5th of the current rates (80% off). If the product category is currently under review, an open source project will be charged only a-day-for-a-week: http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki Actual Subsystems is for following: * persistency systems (python, ruby) * complete frameworks, which contain persistency (python, ruby) * project hosts and collaboration tools (python, ruby) As an example, python persistence candidates for the reduced rates would be Axiom, Django and SQLObject: http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/Persist - Audits of other listed Subsystems will be charged with 2/5th of the current rates. Large Scale Open Source Projects and/or fully commercialized Open Source Projects will be charged with 3/5th (actual subsystems) or 4/5th (scheduled subsystems). Commercial Entities and Open Source Projects not within the Subsystem listing will be charged with 5/5ths of the rates. - Another possibility would be to make the audits freely and to ask for a small fee from the end-users which use the results (e.g. paypal link within the section). - This is a draft version and the facts and interconnections are most possibly not demonstrated very clearly. You feedback will assist to clarify / adjust the concept. Thank you very much for your time. . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
