[RBW] Re: Sugino GP bottom bracket size?

[IanA]

I have a GP triple (130 BCD though) that was on a Marinoni Turismo (c.2000) 
and it had a 122 spindle.  Might be good to try the 118 and eyeball the 
clearance to provide a reference point.

IanA/Canada.

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 8:24:41 PM UTC-6, Jim Bronson wrote:

 Anyone used an old Sugino GP 110/74 triple in their Rivendell or 
 Rivendell-like frame?  I have one sitting around in a box that I was 
 thinking about using, but wasn't sure what size bottom bracket to use.  I 
 already have a spare 118 JIS square BB on hand, and I suppose I could get a 
 113 and 110 and see what works, but it would probably be easier to know 
 what to use ahead of time :-)

 -- 
 Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down! 


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[RBW] Re: Errandonnee Runner

[Michael Hechmer]

Great title Deacon.  Did you coin this word?  I love it.So glad to read 
that you keep pushing on what you can do, instead of getting stuck in what 
you can't.  

As a hospital chaplain (now retired) I worked with quite a few survivors of 
CHI  TBI as well as skull fractures, mostly compliment of the ski, 
snowmobile,  alcohol industry.  Also did some reading, but probably not as 
much as you.  I especially liked the memoir, Where is the Mango Princess 
by Cathy Crimmins.  Another book you might like is How God Changes Your 
Brain.  which describes a neuroscientist research into meditation. 
 (Disclosure, I teach meditation)  but contains lots of useful info about 
the plasticity of the brain.

The dirt road  live on has finally dried out enough to begin riding on it, 
which is a huge lift o my spirits.  Unfortunately yesterday was raw, with 
sustained winds of 24 mph.  Today looks like a beautiful day for a ride.

Blessings,
michael


On Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:17:30 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Shojo’s photo, https://www.flickr.com/photos/stakx/14001712894/, reminded 
 me:

 With my wimpy brain, it’s not often I get to ride Errandonnees, but 
 they’ve been happening more often since I got the Post to agree to bring my 
 mail outside to me (it is so scented inside I can’t go in to get our mail 
 from our box), and today I popped to the LBS and bought what I needed from 
 the front porch, with the owner being very helpful, bringing things out for 
 me to choose between. Then I hit some nearby sloppy melting single track 
 and had coffee outside. It was a grand morning!

 It’s not much, but my world is expanding bit by bit, in part thanks to me 
 bike. 

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: What do you do on your Birthaday?

[ascpgh]

A fine way to usher in the next year!

Your write-ups have been a great vicarious rider's view of SoCal to those 
of us less familiar to that riding environment (as opposed to snow, 30°s, 
rain, potholes, etc.). I keep reading.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:34:17 PM UTC-4, hsmitham wrote:

 This is what I decided to do. Herehttp://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/
  

 Have a great day!

 ~Hugh


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[RBW] Re: GAP Trail from Confluence to Rockwood, PA

[ascpgh]

A very strong point I think many realize but fail to apply for the benefit 
of any riding group. It was the lacking sentiment that sent me to the 
trails to find my own biking enjoyment a long time ago. Knowing it is 
possible for myself allows me to do keep the riding fun for others. Less 
process, more objective than any destination or timetable. 

I was a recipient of this valuable lesson in an activity driven by the 
ambition and objectives of others at the expense of others making up my 
group.

When I was a 14 year old Boy Scout I went to the Philmont Ranch with a 
neighborhood troop not my own, I wasn't of the minimum age when mine took 
their alternating year trip the summer before. They had an ambitious 
itinerary picked by the adults that did it all. We also carried everything 
for our trip after day two over those miles including water into the dry 
camps. We had many 20+ mile days and often arrived at the destination sites 
where topical programming was a highlight, too late for those activities, 
hurrying to put up our tents and boil our water for dinner before it was 
dark. 

Not a happy crew at all and I remember getting to know everyone  more as 
our afternoons turned into death marches against the remaining miles and 
sunset, redirecting their anger over missing out on a mine tour or chuck 
wagon dinner program and looking at how much more countryside we were 
seeing, how much change we saw in each day's hiking and how others will 
stare in disbelief when they would tell their stories about that trip. 

I never expect others to learn through suffering, certainly not about 
something that should be enjoyed. If it's your own gift to do so, 
appreciate your patience, perseverance, and insight, never assume it of 
others. It's just good manners to show others the good stuff.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 8:28:54 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 My wife doesn't feel comfortable on a bike yet and I haven't been able to 
 get her willing to ride one long enough to get comfortable, especially 
 since she has at least one wee one to haul. The way we do bikepacking is 
 pick a destination she can easily hike to just a few miles in. The older 
 lassies and I ride in loaded with stuff for 6 on our three bikes. I'll make 
 multiple trips if need be. We try and do a few of those a year, and I do 
 1-2 3-5 day tours with the older lassies each year.

 We mostly focus on the question What do we want to create? Answer: 
 family time in the remote and quiet wilderness. How we each get there is up 
 for grabs.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 6:11:43 PM UTC-6, WETH wrote:

 Dear Howard,
 Thanks.  In terms of my wife and riding, it has been an evolution.   
 Three years ago I was hoping she would ride more with me, and I never 
 thought she'd do an overnight.  We started with very short neighborhood 
 rides, often with the kids.  As she complained about bike fit, I replaced 
 the offending item: new saddle, albatross bars Until finally last 
 summer we got up to 30 mile rides and she remained relatively comfortable 
 and really grew to enjoy riding.  Finally she gave me the green light to 
 build her a bike.  So I bought a used surly LHT, powder coated it orange 
 (her choice) and gave her a classic Riv build.  She kept her funky spider 
 flex saddle which she swears by.  With the new bike, I dialed in her fit to 
 maximize longer distances at slower speeds in relative comfort.  
 The other approach I took, which was harder, was to remind myself to take 
 it easy and not to sprint ahead on rides.  That was hard at first because I 
 commute a lot, and it was a challenge to conscientiously match her more 
 leisurely pace.  I often let her take the lead or we cycle side by side and 
 chat.  She in turn has helped me appreciate a more serene way of biking.  
 All the best,
 Erl



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[RBW] Re: Errandonnee Runner

[Deacon Patrick]

I can claim meandonnee but errandonnee is something I saw first in 
various Flickr shots and Shoji just posted the 
source: 
http://chasingmailboxes.com/2014/03/04/winter-challenge-the-errandonnee-2014-edition/.

Neural plasticity is amazing stuff. Fortunately, for all it's complexity, 
it boils down to enter life with wild abandon and you take advantage of 
it's goodness -- it's among the gifts I call God's engineering -- natural 
mechanisms of healing built in that we can utilize if we get the clutter 
out of the way. Floor living, ketogenic diet, going barefoot, contemplative 
prayer (similar to meditation), aerobic exercise, ... etc... All amazing 
gifts!

I actually don't read as much as I'd like. Part of life with vertigo 
includes nystagmus (eye flutter), which makes reading a tiring activity. 
But the Kindle is a great tool for helping me out with that and oddly since 
I chose to go without eye correction reading is much easier because there 
is far less strain on my eyes and whole head.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, April 25, 2014 5:19:08 AM UTC-6, Michael Hechmer wrote:

 Great title Deacon.  Did you coin this word?  I love it.So glad to 
 read that you keep pushing on what you can do, instead of getting stuck in 
 what you can't.  

 As a hospital chaplain (now retired) I worked with quite a few survivors 
 of CHI  TBI as well as skull fractures, mostly compliment of the ski, 
 snowmobile,  alcohol industry.  Also did some reading, but probably not as 
 much as you.  I especially liked the memoir, Where is the Mango Princess 
 by Cathy Crimmins.  Another book you might like is How God Changes Your 
 Brain.  which describes a neuroscientist research into meditation. 
  (Disclosure, I teach meditation)  but contains lots of useful info about 
 the plasticity of the brain.

 The dirt road  live on has finally dried out enough to begin riding on it, 
 which is a huge lift o my spirits.  Unfortunately yesterday was raw, with 
 sustained winds of 24 mph.  Today looks like a beautiful day for a ride.

 Blessings,
 michael


 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:17:30 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Shojo’s photo, https://www.flickr.com/photos/stakx/14001712894/, 
 reminded me:

 With my wimpy brain, it’s not often I get to ride Errandonnees, but 
 they’ve been happening more often since I got the Post to agree to bring my 
 mail outside to me (it is so scented inside I can’t go in to get our mail 
 from our box), and today I popped to the LBS and bought what I needed from 
 the front porch, with the owner being very helpful, bringing things out for 
 me to choose between. Then I hit some nearby sloppy melting single track 
 and had coffee outside. It was a grand morning!

 It’s not much, but my world is expanding bit by bit, in part thanks to me 
 bike. 

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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Re: [RBW] Re: GAP Trail from Confluence to Rockwood, PA

[Tony DeFilippo]

Hey Andy,

Sorry to hear that your Philmont experience was more death march than fun
adventure... I had the wonderfull opportunity to do that trip twice ( '94
and '95), the second year we took a more aggressive hi-mileage trek but it
was definitely a group decision.

Erl,

Great points, I need to be better about being a good riding partner when
I'm out w/ my wife.  We both find it easier on the tandem but that isn't
always the way we want to go for an outing.

Tony

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[RBW] Re: GAP Trail from Confluence to Rockwood, PA

[Deacon Patrick]

Och, Andy! How many of your compatriots learned to love wilderness 
adventure after that racing mentality? Gadzooks! Where you ended up, 
seeking and finding the gift so very oddly wrapped, is the best place to 
end up when the cause of suffering is beyond your control. Attitude within 
suffering controls everything is is always a choice within our grasp if we 
but know it.

A huge part of my ministry to others with brain injury is to help them come 
to that realization. Yes, it's a long hard road. So what? It's the road you 
have and you can have whatever attitude you choose along the way. You can 
enjoy the view, the flowers, the stunning scents of new spring loam waking 
from under the melting snow, or you can allow fear and death to consume and 
define you. Which version do you think will be more fruitful, healing, 
joyous, and enjoyable? So while I never expect others to learn from 
suffering, I always strive to help them see the opportunity and take it if 
they choose. If I read you aright, that sounds like what you do as well, 
and that is a beautiful gift. And who knows, gifts like that often bloom 
out of sight of the one who planted the seed. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick



On Friday, April 25, 2014 6:15:55 AM UTC-6, ascpgh wrote:

 I never expect others to learn through suffering, certainly not about 
 something that should be enjoyed. If it's your own gift to do so, 
 appreciate your patience, perseverance, and insight, never assume it of 
 others. It's just good manners to show others the good stuff.

 Andy Cheatham
 Pittsburgh


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[RBW] Want to buy: Folding bead 35mm smooth tires

[eflayer]

Ready to give fatties a try. Wondering if you have a pair of some good ones 
for sale = Cypres, Kojak, Brown?
 
I can buy them new, but think someone might have a couple of good ones at a 
fine price right here.

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[RBW] Re: Want to buy: Folding bead 35mm smooth tires

[eflayer]

Looking for 700c, Thanks.

On Friday, April 25, 2014 6:42:02 AM UTC-7, eflayer wrote:

 Ready to give fatties a try. Wondering if you have a pair of some good 
 ones for sale = Cypres, Kojak, Brown?
  
 I can buy them new, but think someone might have a couple of good ones at 
 a fine price right here.


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[RBW] 10 speed conundrum(s)

[Jim Bronson]

I'm building up a new frame, and trying to keep it a secret, at least,
until I thin the herd.  So I was thinking I would re-use, scavenge or just
get parts out of my box of odds and ends, as much as I can.

So I have these 10 speed Ultegra 6700 brifters that I got a while back for
a stupid cheap price.  Literally, less than the cost of 10 speed bar ends.
They were a takeoff from a brand new bike who's owner's hands were too
small and she switched to SRAM.  So they are practically brand new.  I
figure, I may as well use them for a while, that way I don't have to go
drop $100 on a new pair of 9/8/whatever speed bar ends.

The issue is though, I wanted to use a cassette with a 34 big ring.  It
seems that 10 speed MTB Shimano derailers are not compatible with 10 speed
Shimano road shifters.  I don't know why this would be.  I see all the 10
speed MTB stuff is labeled DynaSys

I do have a 9 speed Shimano MTB derailer, model M-592, that I do have lying
around and I have found postings out there on the Internet that say 9 speed
Shimano MTB derailers should work fine for shifting a road 10 speed setup.
Of course, you know what they say about stuff you find on the Internet.
The derailer is super ugly and Transformers looking, but just to get me
going for now if it would work, that would be great.

Then, considering other compatibility issues, what about the 10 speed
cassettes?  Is the spacing different between 10 speed road and 10 speed
Mountain?  What about SRAM cassettes in 10 speed, are they compatible with
Shimano road 10 or is that something else altogether?

Lastly, what about chains?  Shimano seems to have some weird 10 speed
chains that are directional and so forth.  Is that really necessary or can
I just use a SRAM (10 speed) chain like I have in the past?  (or KMC, etc).

I suppose I could circumvent some of these issues by just using a Tiagra
4600 12-30 with a Tiagra long cage, that should work for sure.  But I
wanted a few more teeth on that big cog.

Well anyway, any knowledge on this subject appreciated.  I liked it better
when all the Shimano compatible gear more or less worked together.  I can
see why people resist going to 10 speed, they put all kinds of obstacles in
your way to run a Rivvy drivetrain.

-- 
Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

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Re: [RBW] 10 speed conundrum(s)

[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/25/2014 11:41 AM, Jim Bronson wrote:


I do have a 9 speed Shimano MTB derailer, model M-592, that I do have 
lying around and I have found postings out there on the Internet that 
say 9 speed Shimano MTB derailers should work fine for shifting a road 
10 speed setup.  Of course, you know what they say about stuff you 
find on the Internet.  The derailer is super ugly and Transformers 
looking, but just to get me going for now if it would work, that would 
be great.


It works fine.  A number of my riding pals have gone to compact doubles 
with 36T 10 speed cassettes and Shadow Shimano MTB rear derailleurs.  
I presume that's what you mean by Transformers-looking.




Then, considering other compatibility issues, what about the 10 speed 
cassettes?  Is the spacing different between 10 speed road and 10 
speed Mountain?  What about SRAM cassettes in 10 speed, are they 
compatible with Shimano road 10 or is that something else altogether?




Spacing is the same.  I'm not sure whether the SRAM cassettes are 
compatible.  I think most of my friends are using the Shimano SLX HG81 
11-36 cassette, which Harris Cycles calls The Ultimate 10-Speed Touring 
Cassette!


Designed for Shimano's Shadow technology Mtn Bike components, This 
cassette can be used on a touring bike
with a traditional Deore 
http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=950 MTB rear derailleur by 
replacing the B tension screw with a 4mm x 20mm bolt.
We tested the set-up on a Gunnar with 105 STI 5600 levers and it shifted 
flawlessly!



Lastly, what about chains?  Shimano seems to have some weird 10 speed 
chains that are directional and so forth.  Is that really necessary or 
can I just use a SRAM (10 speed) chain like I have in the past?  (or 
KMC, etc).


AFAIK SRAM 10 speed chains work fine with these setups.


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[RBW] Re: Want to buy: Folding bead 35mm smooth tires

[jandrews_nyc]

I have 3 Pasela 700x37 in good used shape you can have for $40
Jason 

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Re: [RBW] Re: What do you do on your Birthaday?

[Hugh Smitham]

Andy,

I'm glad you enjoyed the post. I really love the blogs I read from the
other coast as I've never (hope to in the future) ridden a bike in any of
those locations like your Pittsburgh.

When I think about how to celebrate the day of my birth I don't think, I
want this materiel thing or that or a big party. I've spent all this money
on an amazing machine and just want to either ride with friends or just
ride. I'm also a fan of doing something integrated with the ride like the
coffee  tea club. Not an original idea but that's the beauty of this
list-serve great ideas and friendships.

Thanks for reading.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/




On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 4:34 AM, ascpgh asc@gmail.com wrote:

 A fine way to usher in the next year!

 Your write-ups have been a great vicarious rider's view of SoCal to those
 of us less familiar to that riding environment (as opposed to snow, 30°s,
 rain, potholes, etc.). I keep reading.

 Andy Cheatham
 Pittsburgh


 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:34:17 PM UTC-4, hsmitham wrote:

 This is what I decided to do. Herehttp://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/


 Have a great day!

 ~Hugh

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[RBW] Re: Errandonnee Runner

[cyclotour...@gmail.com]

Keep us postedon the Brewvet... that sounds like something to not be missed!

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 7:13:25 PM UTC-7, Shoji Takahashi wrote:

 Hey Patrick,
 I'm really happy to hear about how the bike (a Hunqapillar no less!) has 
 changed your life. I've learned a lot from you and many on this board.

 The Errandonnee patch is from Mary G's Winter Challenge:

 http://chasingmailboxes.com/2014/03/04/winter-challenge-the-errandonnee-2014-edition/

 She's a sometimes poster, quite often Quickbeamer, and I think there are a 
 few more Rivs in their home. IIRC, Tony D's agapanthus purple 'luki was 
 featured in her flickr stream.

 For those beer inclined, there's a Brewvet in the works May 1 - June 10.

 happy riding,
 shoji


 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 10:03:12 PM UTC-4, hsmitham wrote:

 Deacon,

 I love that notion. I need to find that patch. Yes I agree the bicycle is 
 therapeutic...cause it works for me.

 ~Hugh

 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 6:17:30 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Shojo’s photo, https://www.flickr.com/photos/stakx/14001712894/, 
 reminded me:

 With my wimpy brain, it’s not often I get to ride Errandonnees, but 
 they’ve been happening more often since I got the Post to agree to bring my 
 mail outside to me (it is so scented inside I can’t go in to get our mail 
 from our box), and today I popped to the LBS and bought what I needed from 
 the front porch, with the owner being very helpful, bringing things out for 
 me to choose between. Then I hit some nearby sloppy melting single track 
 and had coffee outside. It was a grand morning!

 It’s not much, but my world is expanding bit by bit, in part thanks to 
 me bike. 

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: GAP Trail from Confluence to Rockwood, PA

[Ken D]

Great to see a thread on the GAP.  I've done much of it, both with kids and 
friends.  With kids, I tend to spend the night indoors (you were near the 
Levi Deal Mansion BB in Meyersdale which I highly recommend for cyclists). 
The stretch of the trail from Meyersdale to Frostburg, MD is the most 
picturesque, as it includes the Big Savage Tunnel and the Eastern 
Continental Divide.  I did that a few years back - my 10 year old daughter 
easily did 22 miles up to the divide and back to Meyersdale.  At her 
current age, I would expect some complaining doing the same trip.

In 2012, my buddies and I biked from Frostburg to downtown Pittsburgh in 
three days, camping at Ohiopyle Campground on day 1 and Apache Springs on 
day 2. It is true the trains are loud at Apache Springs, so either bring 
ear plugs or enjoy the vibe.  It was a great trip for a group with a range 
of fitness levels.  
One tip: two water bottles per bike is typically fine in the summer when 
fountains are flowing along the trail, and businesses are open.  In the off 
season, some stretches of the trail won't have easy access to refill your 
bottles.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smoking might be good for you

[GeorgeS]

Eric:  Who is the author of Road to Valor?
George Strickler
New Orleans, La.

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:40:54 PM UTC-5, EricP wrote:

 Made me smile, too.  BTW, it reminds me that the book Road to Valor is a 
 nice biography of Bartali.  Not sure if all allegations are true, but if 
 so, he really was a hero in more than just racing.  Pretty sure this book 
 was talke about on this list when it came out.

 Eric Platt
 St. Paul, MN


 On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 6:52 PM, hsmitham hughs...@gmail.comjavascript:
  wrote:

 Tom,

 Thank you for bringing a smile to my face. The great Gino Bartali smoked 
 too and won two tours 10 years apart. On some level they must have known it 
 wasn't beneficial to their riding? Or maybe not.

 ~Hugh


 On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 3:33:36 PM UTC-7, Tom Virgil wrote:

 and maybe not https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202183233317395

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[RBW] Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Jim Martin]

Hello All:

I just purchased a beautiful used 1999 Waterford built Heron and you can 
see the sellers ad 
herehttp://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=146608highlight=heron. 
Before buying it I looked at the archived version of the Heron website for 
99http://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.heronbicycles.com/general_info.htmland
 read: 
A Heron Road has lots of the same features as a 
Rivendellhttp://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/,
 
and is just as versatile. You can put fenders on it or ride it with 700x35s 
on bad roads and fire trails, and you can race it on a smooth course.

So imagine my surprise when I tried to install my wheels with 32mm Conti 
Sport Contact tires. And found that they are within about a half a mm of 
the rear brake bridge. No way you could ride a 35mm tire. Certainly can't 
ride the 32's with fenders and its hard to know if I can get fenders and 
28mm tires to work either. Why the misleading information? I'm not blaming 
the seller because, after going straight to the web site, I already knew 
about tire clearance I didn't bother to ask him. So much for my trust in 
all things related to Rivendell.  

Jim

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smoking might be good for you

[Hugh Smitham]

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Valor-Cyclist-Inspired-Nation/dp/030759064X

 I have it if you'd like to read it. I can mail it to you.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/




On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:46 PM, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote:

 Eric:  Who is the author of Road to Valor?
 George Strickler
 New Orleans, La.


 On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:40:54 PM UTC-5, EricP wrote:

 Made me smile, too.  BTW, it reminds me that the book Road to Valor is a
 nice biography of Bartali.  Not sure if all allegations are true, but if
 so, he really was a hero in more than just racing.  Pretty sure this book
 was talke about on this list when it came out.

 Eric Platt
 St. Paul, MN


 On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 6:52 PM, hsmitham hughs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Tom,

 Thank you for bringing a smile to my face. The great Gino Bartali smoked
 too and won two tours 10 years apart. On some level they must have known it
 wasn't beneficial to their riding? Or maybe not.

 ~Hugh


 On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 3:33:36 PM UTC-7, Tom Virgil wrote:

 and maybe not https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202183233317395

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[RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Jim - 

I have to say that I'm not really following your point. Certainly, it's got 
to be frustrating to purchase something that doesn't do what you hoped it 
would.  But, I'm not sure how you get from a 15 year old archived web page 
to losing trust in Rivendell.  Second to that, tire profiles have changed a 
bit in the ensuing time frame.  More round now, more larger sizes now.  And 
every rim makes a tire sit a bit differently.  

With a couple of google stabs, I found several ref's to folks selling Heron 
roads (not sure on the model years), describing tire clearances that ran 
from 28 to 38.  Enough that it would have caused concern enough to confirm 
with the seller.

Heron was spun off from Rivendell long ago.  Different models, different 
owner, a different company.

Sorry to hear you had a bad outcome, but I don't think it's particularly 
appropriate to draw a far-reaching conclusion about trust from those data 
points.

- Jim

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[RBW] Re: Errandonnee Runner

[Shoji Takahashi]

Here's more on the Brewvet Challenge:
http://portajohn.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/brewvet-challenge-what-you-need-to-know/




On Friday, April 25, 2014 1:06:04 PM UTC-4, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

 Keep us postedon the Brewvet... that sounds like something to not be 
 missed!

 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 7:13:25 PM UTC-7, Shoji Takahashi wrote:

 Hey Patrick,
 I'm really happy to hear about how the bike (a Hunqapillar no less!) has 
 changed your life. I've learned a lot from you and many on this board.

 The Errandonnee patch is from Mary G's Winter Challenge:

 http://chasingmailboxes.com/2014/03/04/winter-challenge-the-errandonnee-2014-edition/

 She's a sometimes poster, quite often Quickbeamer, and I think there are 
 a few more Rivs in their home. IIRC, Tony D's agapanthus purple 'luki was 
 featured in her flickr stream.

 For those beer inclined, there's a Brewvet in the works May 1 - June 10.

 happy riding,
 shoji


 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 10:03:12 PM UTC-4, hsmitham wrote:

 Deacon,

 I love that notion. I need to find that patch. Yes I agree the bicycle 
 is therapeutic...cause it works for me.

 ~Hugh

 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 6:17:30 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Shojo’s photo, https://www.flickr.com/photos/stakx/14001712894/, 
 reminded me:

 With my wimpy brain, it’s not often I get to ride Errandonnees, but 
 they’ve been happening more often since I got the Post to agree to bring 
 my 
 mail outside to me (it is so scented inside I can’t go in to get our mail 
 from our box), and today I popped to the LBS and bought what I needed from 
 the front porch, with the owner being very helpful, bringing things out 
 for 
 me to choose between. Then I hit some nearby sloppy melting single track 
 and had coffee outside. It was a grand morning!

 It’s not much, but my world is expanding bit by bit, in part thanks to 
 me bike. 

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Chris Chen]

I can understand why you'd be miffed; you're out $900. But I have to echo
Jim's statements; Riv might be a weird company but it's not an unethical or
dishonest company.

I also noticed (can't really see) but it looks like it has semi-horizontal
dropouts...if you back way off on those, can you fit a larger tire?

cc


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Cyclofiend Jim
cyclofi...@earthlink.netwrote:

 Jim -

 I have to say that I'm not really following your point. Certainly, it's
 got to be frustrating to purchase something that doesn't do what you hoped
 it would.  But, I'm not sure how you get from a 15 year old archived web
 page to losing trust in Rivendell.  Second to that, tire profiles have
 changed a bit in the ensuing time frame.  More round now, more larger sizes
 now.  And every rim makes a tire sit a bit differently.

 With a couple of google stabs, I found several ref's to folks selling
 Heron roads (not sure on the model years), describing tire clearances that
 ran from 28 to 38.  Enough that it would have caused concern enough to
 confirm with the seller.

 Heron was spun off from Rivendell long ago.  Different models, different
 owner, a different company.

 Sorry to hear you had a bad outcome, but I don't think it's particularly
 appropriate to draw a far-reaching conclusion about trust from those data
 points.

 - Jim

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[RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Greg J]

At some point, rivendell sold their interest in the heron brand to someone, who 
then again sold it to someone.  So I believe there were 2 or 3 iterations of 
heron bikes.  I think when you're buying used bikes (esp one that's 14 years 
old), it's buyer beware.  Riv could have changed the specs before your bike was 
built (a right they reserve), the seller could have been mistaken about the 
year and it was a later version with different specs (probably the most likely 
explanation), or maybe this was a one-off custom or prototype. 

In any event, I don't think it's fair to characterize this as a 
misrepresentation because it was not a representation made to you in 2014 in 
connection with your frame, which you were buying from Riv. 

All that said, this is still a great bike with pretty much perfect geometry for 
unloaded all day road riding, much like the original Waterford Riv road. 

Greg in Oakland. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Tim Gavin]

Jim-

Seems like a small thing to get so offended by.  However, I was in your
shoes when I picked up my '97 Rivendell Road.  Riv Catalog 3 (1997) states
that the Riv Road has clearance for 700x35c tires, but mine barely clears a
700x28c tire, with about 1 mm to spare under the brake bridge and fork
crown.

I was kinda disappointed to miss out on all this fluffy-yet-fast wide
tires thing that Riv folks were so excited about.

But, the intervening years since my Riv's creation have produced some
alternative solutions.  650b wheels, tires, and long-reach sidepulls are
now easily available.  I converted my Riv Road to 650b, and now it fits a
38mm wide tire and full fenders.  It has a great, comfy ride that feels
wonderful, yet it's not appreciably slower than with larger diameter
700x28c.

I'm not sure if Riv's specifications were slightly optimistic, if it's the
difference in tires since then, or what.  It was frustrating to find out my
Riv is a bit of a lemon, but it's made some excellent lemonade!

And it's really made me want an Atlantis or Hunq for fat 700c tire
touring...

Tim Gavin
Cedar Rapids, IA


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Cyclofiend Jim
cyclofi...@earthlink.netwrote:

 Jim -

 I have to say that I'm not really following your point. Certainly, it's
 got to be frustrating to purchase something that doesn't do what you hoped
 it would.  But, I'm not sure how you get from a 15 year old archived web
 page to losing trust in Rivendell.  Second to that, tire profiles have
 changed a bit in the ensuing time frame.  More round now, more larger sizes
 now.  And every rim makes a tire sit a bit differently.

 With a couple of google stabs, I found several ref's to folks selling
 Heron roads (not sure on the model years), describing tire clearances that
 ran from 28 to 38.  Enough that it would have caused concern enough to
 confirm with the seller.

 Heron was spun off from Rivendell long ago.  Different models, different
 owner, a different company.

 Sorry to hear you had a bad outcome, but I don't think it's particularly
 appropriate to draw a far-reaching conclusion about trust from those data
 points.

 - Jim

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[RBW] Re: 7 speed cassette question

[Zack]

So it was, after all, the rivets.  They aren't hex screws any more.  The 
rivets were not allowing the spacer to do it's job properly, resulting in 
some wobble in the cassette.  Since I tightened the living snot out of the 
cassette (a different story for a different time, but, suffice to say, the 
correct torque to put on the cassette is N-1, where N=how much torque I put 
on it) the spacer had a couple ridges, LBS filed those ridges out, 
everything is a-ok now.  

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[RBW] Re: 7 speed cassette question

[Deacon Patrick]

Beautiful! Enjoy!

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, April 25, 2014 12:04:52 PM UTC-6, Zack wrote:

 So it was, after all, the rivets.  They aren't hex screws any more.  The 
 rivets were not allowing the spacer to do it's job properly, resulting in 
 some wobble in the cassette.  Since I tightened the living snot out of the 
 cassette (a different story for a different time, but, suffice to say, the 
 correct torque to put on the cassette is N-1, where N=how much torque I put 
 on it) the spacer had a couple ridges, LBS filed those ridges out, 
 everything is a-ok now.  


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Re: [RBW] Re: 7 speed cassette question

[Chris Chen]

Dude you cold formed the spacer?

BAD ASS!


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 Beautiful! Enjoy!

 With abandon,
 Patrick


 On Friday, April 25, 2014 12:04:52 PM UTC-6, Zack wrote:

 So it was, after all, the rivets.  They aren't hex screws any more.  The
 rivets were not allowing the spacer to do it's job properly, resulting in
 some wobble in the cassette.  Since I tightened the living snot out of the
 cassette (a different story for a different time, but, suffice to say, the
 correct torque to put on the cassette is N-1, where N=how much torque I put
 on it) the spacer had a couple ridges, LBS filed those ridges out,
 everything is a-ok now.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Evan Baird]

http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7320/13019059634_73b5ea31e7.jpg
Like it was made for em.

On Friday, April 25, 2014 10:53:16 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:

 Jim-

 Seems like a small thing to get so offended by.  However, I was in your 
 shoes when I picked up my '97 Rivendell Road.  Riv Catalog 3 (1997) states 
 that the Riv Road has clearance for 700x35c tires, but mine barely clears a 
 700x28c tire, with about 1 mm to spare under the brake bridge and fork 
 crown.

 I was kinda disappointed to miss out on all this fluffy-yet-fast wide 
 tires thing that Riv folks were so excited about.  

 But, the intervening years since my Riv's creation have produced some 
 alternative solutions.  650b wheels, tires, and long-reach sidepulls are 
 now easily available.  I converted my Riv Road to 650b, and now it fits a 
 38mm wide tire and full fenders.  It has a great, comfy ride that feels 
 wonderful, yet it's not appreciably slower than with larger diameter 
 700x28c.

 I'm not sure if Riv's specifications were slightly optimistic, if it's the 
 difference in tires since then, or what.  It was frustrating to find out my 
 Riv is a bit of a lemon, but it's made some excellent lemonade!

 And it's really made me want an Atlantis or Hunq for fat 700c tire 
 touring...

 Tim Gavin
 Cedar Rapids, IA


 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Cyclofiend Jim 
 cyclo...@earthlink.netjavascript:
  wrote:

 Jim - 

 I have to say that I'm not really following your point. Certainly, it's 
 got to be frustrating to purchase something that doesn't do what you hoped 
 it would.  But, I'm not sure how you get from a 15 year old archived web 
 page to losing trust in Rivendell.  Second to that, tire profiles have 
 changed a bit in the ensuing time frame.  More round now, more larger sizes 
 now.  And every rim makes a tire sit a bit differently.  

 With a couple of google stabs, I found several ref's to folks selling 
 Heron roads (not sure on the model years), describing tire clearances that 
 ran from 28 to 38.  Enough that it would have caused concern enough to 
 confirm with the seller.

 Heron was spun off from Rivendell long ago.  Different models, different 
 owner, a different company.

 Sorry to hear you had a bad outcome, but I don't think it's particularly 
 appropriate to draw a far-reaching conclusion about trust from those data 
 points.

 - Jim

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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[David Hays]

Last year I picked up my first Rivendell, a 650B 56 Homer that is listed as 
accepting tires up to 41mm.
I had done a lot of research in this group but still felt lucky and relieved 
when 42mm Hetre's and fenders fit without incident.
David


On Apr 25, 2014, at 3:26 PM, Evan Baird vanster...@gmail.com wrote:

 Like it was made for em.
 
 On Friday, April 25, 2014 10:53:16 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:
 Jim-
 
 Seems like a small thing to get so offended by.  However, I was in your shoes 
 when I picked up my '97 Rivendell Road.  Riv Catalog 3 (1997) states that the 
 Riv Road has clearance for 700x35c tires, but mine barely clears a 700x28c 
 tire, with about 1 mm to spare under the brake bridge and fork crown.
 
 I was kinda disappointed to miss out on all this fluffy-yet-fast wide tires 
 thing that Riv folks were so excited about.  
 
 But, the intervening years since my Riv's creation have produced some 
 alternative solutions.  650b wheels, tires, and long-reach sidepulls are now 
 easily available.  I converted my Riv Road to 650b, and now it fits a 38mm 
 wide tire and full fenders.  It has a great, comfy ride that feels wonderful, 
 yet it's not appreciably slower than with larger diameter 700x28c.
 
 I'm not sure if Riv's specifications were slightly optimistic, if it's the 
 difference in tires since then, or what.  It was frustrating to find out my 
 Riv is a bit of a lemon, but it's made some excellent lemonade!
 
 And it's really made me want an Atlantis or Hunq for fat 700c tire touring...
 
 Tim Gavin
 Cedar Rapids, IA
 
 
 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Cyclofiend Jim cyclo...@earthlink.net 
 wrote:
 Jim - 
 
 I have to say that I'm not really following your point. Certainly, it's got 
 to be frustrating to purchase something that doesn't do what you hoped it 
 would.  But, I'm not sure how you get from a 15 year old archived web page to 
 losing trust in Rivendell.  Second to that, tire profiles have changed a bit 
 in the ensuing time frame.  More round now, more larger sizes now.  And every 
 rim makes a tire sit a bit differently.  
 
 With a couple of google stabs, I found several ref's to folks selling Heron 
 roads (not sure on the model years), describing tire clearances that ran from 
 28 to 38.  Enough that it would have caused concern enough to confirm with 
 the seller.
 
 Heron was spun off from Rivendell long ago.  Different models, different 
 owner, a different company.
 
 Sorry to hear you had a bad outcome, but I don't think it's particularly 
 appropriate to draw a far-reaching conclusion about trust from those data 
 points.
 
 - Jim
 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Chris Chen]

I want to repeat something that's kind of bugged me a few times:

If you want to know about Rivendell Bicycles you can call or email them.
They will tell you to the best of their availability. They run a business;
it's in their interests to tell you what you want to know. They're not a
church; you're not going to the Oracle at Delphi and you don't need to
light incense.

If you don't call, or feel sheepish about asking the Great Riv Gods, and
something doesn't work out, don't blame them.

(This is not directly related to this situation but...)

We're not digging up dinosaur bones people. This is a going concern.

cc


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:31 PM, David Hays 23writ...@gmail.com wrote:

 Last year I picked up my first Rivendell, a 650B 56 Homer that is listed
 as accepting tires up to 41mm.
 I had done a lot of research in this group but still felt lucky and
 relieved when 42mm Hetre's and fenders fit without incident.
 David


 On Apr 25, 2014, at 3:26 PM, Evan Baird vanster...@gmail.com wrote:

 http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7320/13019059634_73b5ea31e7.jpg
 Like it was made for em.

 On Friday, April 25, 2014 10:53:16 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:

 Jim-

 Seems like a small thing to get so offended by.  However, I was in your
 shoes when I picked up my '97 Rivendell Road.  Riv Catalog 3 (1997) states
 that the Riv Road has clearance for 700x35c tires, but mine barely clears a
 700x28c tire, with about 1 mm to spare under the brake bridge and fork
 crown.

 I was kinda disappointed to miss out on all this fluffy-yet-fast wide
 tires thing that Riv folks were so excited about.

 But, the intervening years since my Riv's creation have produced some
 alternative solutions.  650b wheels, tires, and long-reach sidepulls are
 now easily available.  I converted my Riv Road to 650b, and now it fits a
 38mm wide tire and full fenders.  It has a great, comfy ride that feels
 wonderful, yet it's not appreciably slower than with larger diameter
 700x28c.

 I'm not sure if Riv's specifications were slightly optimistic, if it's
 the difference in tires since then, or what.  It was frustrating to find
 out my Riv is a bit of a lemon, but it's made some excellent lemonade!

 And it's really made me want an Atlantis or Hunq for fat 700c tire
 touring...

 Tim Gavin
 Cedar Rapids, IA


 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Cyclofiend Jim cyclo...@earthlink.net
  wrote:

 Jim -

 I have to say that I'm not really following your point. Certainly, it's
 got to be frustrating to purchase something that doesn't do what you hoped
 it would.  But, I'm not sure how you get from a 15 year old archived web
 page to losing trust in Rivendell.  Second to that, tire profiles have
 changed a bit in the ensuing time frame.  More round now, more larger sizes
 now.  And every rim makes a tire sit a bit differently.

 With a couple of google stabs, I found several ref's to folks selling
 Heron roads (not sure on the model years), describing tire clearances that
 ran from 28 to 38.  Enough that it would have caused concern enough to
 confirm with the seller.

 Heron was spun off from Rivendell long ago.  Different models, different
 owner, a different company.

 Sorry to hear you had a bad outcome, but I don't think it's particularly
 appropriate to draw a far-reaching conclusion about trust from those data
 points.

 - Jim

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Re: [RBW] Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Hugh Flynn]

It might depend on the 700cx35 tires in question. The Heron Road was designed 
to use short reach side-pull brakes with the pads at their maximum extension to 
allow the use of the widest possible tires on a 700c rim running through a 
short-reach caliper. From a practical perspective, that value is 32mm without 
fenders at best, but I suspect some brands of 35 measure 32. 

The Heron Touring bike was built to accept a 700x35 tire with fenders when it 
was sold by Rivendell, and the fork clearance was increased sometime between 
2000 and 2001when Todd Kuzma owned the brand. 

Hugh


On Apr 24, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Jim Martin wrote:

 Hello All:
 
 I just purchased a beautiful used 1999 Waterford built Heron and you can see 
 the sellers ad here. Before buying it I looked at the archived version of the 
 Heron website for 99 and read: 
 A Heron Road has lots of the same features as a Rivendell, and is just as 
 versatile. You can put fenders on it or ride it with 700x35s on bad roads and 
 fire trails, and you can race it on a smooth course.
 
 So imagine my surprise when I tried to install my wheels with 32mm Conti 
 Sport Contact tires. And found that they are within about a half a mm of the 
 rear brake bridge. No way you could ride a 35mm tire. Certainly can't ride 
 the 32's with fenders and its hard to know if I can get fenders and 28mm 
 tires to work either. Why the misleading information? I'm not blaming the 
 seller because, after going straight to the web site, I already knew about 
 tire clearance I didn't bother to ask him. So much for my trust in all things 
 related to Rivendell.  
 
 Jim
 
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Re: [RBW] Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Doug Van Cleve]

If it is a '99, it is a Ted Durant financed, Riv designed and marketed
Heron.  Please remember that the only standard/long reach brakes available
then were old, either used or NOS.  Riv road models generally were made for
maximum clearance with normal short reach calipers.  I think tires were
more liberally labeled then than they are nowas well, with many running 1-2
sizes smaller than marked.  My '99 Joe Starck built Riv Road Std can easily
clear a real 32mm tire with Campy short reach brakes, not sure a fender
would go in there though.  It is a great bike you've got, and will ride
very nicely with 28+mm wide tires...

Doug


On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Jim Martin jim.mar...@utah.edu wrote:

 Hello All:

 I just purchased a beautiful used 1999 Waterford built Heron and you can
 see the sellers ad 
 herehttp://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=146608highlight=heron.
 Before buying it I looked at the archived version of the Heron website
 for 
 99http://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.heronbicycles.com/general_info.htmland
  read:
 A Heron Road has lots of the same features as a 
 Rivendellhttp://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/,
 and is just as versatile. You can put fenders on it or ride it with 700x35s
 on bad roads and fire trails, and you can race it on a smooth course.

 So imagine my surprise when I tried to install my wheels with 32mm Conti
 Sport Contact tires. And found that they are within about a half a mm of
 the rear brake bridge. No way you could ride a 35mm tire. Certainly can't
 ride the 32's with fenders and its hard to know if I can get fenders and
 28mm tires to work either. Why the misleading information? I'm not blaming
 the seller because, after going straight to the web site, I already knew
 about tire clearance I didn't bother to ask him. So much for my trust in
 all things related to Rivendell.

 Jim

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[RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Minh]

Rivendell and to some extent all of the off-shoots from RBW are small 
volume frames manufactured over the course of many years in different 
batches.  Things change over time. clearances go up, tweaks happen.  The 
only true way to verify something you buy is to measure, this would be true 
of any bike

You're free to vent, but blaming RBW for something (that they possibly 
didn't even make), is unwarranted.

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[RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Michael Hechmer]

If memory serves me right, in 1999 the typical 35 MM tire rarely measured 
more than 32 mm and often as little as 30mm.  I know my wife had a long 
lived pair of  35 pasellas which were the same size as my newer 32's which 
were not much more than 30 mm. Today many tires seem to be much closer to 
the label size.  So I wouldn't conclude that either Heron or RBW intended 
to mislead anyone but simply going by industry norms of the day.  I ran 
into a very similar experience when I purchased a 1984 Trek 620 on ebay.  I 
was very disappointed in the tire clearance.  I converted it to 650 bb and 
love both the ride and the (actual) 38 mm Pari Moto tires on it.  Sorry 
about your frustration.

Michael

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 4:28:00 PM UTC-4, Jim Martin wrote:

 Hello All:

 I just purchased a beautiful used 1999 Waterford built Heron and you can 
 see the sellers ad 
 herehttp://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=146608highlight=heron. 
 Before buying it I looked at the archived version of the Heron website 
 for 
 99http://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.heronbicycles.com/general_info.htmland
  read: 
 A Heron Road has lots of the same features as a 
 Rivendellhttp://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/,
  
 and is just as versatile. You can put fenders on it or ride it with 700x35s 
 on bad roads and fire trails, and you can race it on a smooth course.

 So imagine my surprise when I tried to install my wheels with 32mm Conti 
 Sport Contact tires. And found that they are within about a half a mm of 
 the rear brake bridge. No way you could ride a 35mm tire. Certainly can't 
 ride the 32's with fenders and its hard to know if I can get fenders and 
 28mm tires to work either. Why the misleading information? I'm not blaming 
 the seller because, after going straight to the web site, I already knew 
 about tire clearance I didn't bother to ask him. So much for my trust in 
 all things related to Rivendell.  

 Jim


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Re: [RBW] Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[mikel66...@juno.com]

jim,

the Road morphed into the Rally which uses 47-57mm brakes and can fit a 32mm 
tire easily...perhaps thats where your confusion and subsequent problem arises 
from

http://web.archive.org/web/20090430010313/http://www.heronbicycles.com/frames.html

Do THIS before eating carbs #40;every time#41;
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar  decrease fat storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/535abb6cb99dd3b6c53b7st03duc

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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[David Banzer]

David Hays wrote:

 Last year I picked up my first Rivendell, a 650B 56 Homer that is listed 
 as accepting tires up to 41mm.
 I had done a lot of research in this group but still felt lucky and 
 relieved when 42mm Hetre's and fenders fit without incident.
 David


 Same situation here. I picked up a Redwood (taller version of a Romulus) 
and asked about clearances, and was told pretty much that a 32mm tire with 
no fenders was the maximum clearance. I was more than pleasantly surprised 
to find that it does indeed fit 35mm plus fenders as published by Riv.
David
Chicago

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[RBW] New SRAM chain noiser than previous Shimano chain?

[Tim Tetrault]

Hi Group-

Just replaced the chain on my '12 Hillborne. My previous chain was an 
XT/Ultegra 9 speed. Current chain is a SRAM PC 991 (SRAM's high-end 9s 
chain). 

Installation was very easy, but this thing sounds like a rachet riding 
along, and I am certain it's not FD rub. 

Is this normal? Did I put it on backwards? 

Other items you might want to know- SLX 9s cassette: 11-34, Sugino 26-36-46 
triple. SLX 9s rear derailleur.

Any clues? The cassette is now on it's 3rd chain, doesn't look too worn, 
but maybe I need to break in the chain to the cassette?

Very thankful for this braintrust-

Tim

Seattle, WA

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[RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Bill Lindsay]

It is a huge bummer when you think you're going to run a 35 and find that a 
32 barely fits.  

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 1:28:00 PM UTC-7, Jim Martin wrote:

 Hello All:

 I just purchased a beautiful used 1999 Waterford built Heron and you can 
 see the sellers ad 
 herehttp://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=146608highlight=heron. 
 Before buying it I looked at the archived version of the Heron website 
 for 
 99http://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.heronbicycles.com/general_info.htmland
  read: 
 A Heron Road has lots of the same features as a 
 Rivendellhttp://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/,
  
 and is just as versatile. You can put fenders on it or ride it with 700x35s 
 on bad roads and fire trails, and you can race it on a smooth course.

 So imagine my surprise when I tried to install my wheels with 32mm Conti 
 Sport Contact tires. And found that they are within about a half a mm of 
 the rear brake bridge. No way you could ride a 35mm tire. Certainly can't 
 ride the 32's with fenders and its hard to know if I can get fenders and 
 28mm tires to work either. Why the misleading information? I'm not blaming 
 the seller because, after going straight to the web site, I already knew 
 about tire clearance I didn't bother to ask him. So much for my trust in 
 all things related to Rivendell.  

 Jim


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Re: [RBW] Re: GAP Trail from Confluence to Rockwood, PA

[ascpgh]

Tony,

To the contrary, my trip at Philmont was stellar. My take on the itinerary 
was that programs are fine but often were detractions to the peace and 
beauty available if one looked around. Iron pot stew is fine but making a 
freeze-dried repast on the top of Mount Phillips over what became an 
unsettled, freezing, night tops that any time.

On Friday, April 25, 2014 9:28:21 AM UTC-4, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

 Hey Andy,
  
 Sorry to hear that your Philmont experience was more death march than fun 
 adventure... I had the wonderfull opportunity to do that trip twice ( '94 
 and '95), the second year we took a more aggressive hi-mileage trek but it 
 was definitely a group decision.
  
 Erl,
  
 Great points, I need to be better about being a good riding partner when 
 I'm out w/ my wife.  We both find it easier on the tandem but that isn't 
 always the way we want to go for an outing.
  
 Tony


Patrick, 

Care for the parts, the whole will get along! I had the trove of both foot 
care and repair items plus that bizarre new fangled MSR stove that burned 
oil. No one suffered foot issues or lacked for boiling water. That trip 
solidified my outlook on lots of things. I sure try to enjoy my cycling and 
that of those I invite because of the experience. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

  


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Re: [RBW] Get your Rivendell water bottles!

[Peter Morgano]

I was wrong, it's only 15% off, still a hot deal though!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVENDELL-WATER-BOTTLE-BIDON-MADE-BY-SPECIALIZED-LARGE-GREEN-/310940844287?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item486584c0ff
On Apr 25, 2014 12:13 AM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.com wrote:

 Dude I have a feeling if you hold out it might go 20% off!
 On Apr 25, 2014 12:05 AM, rcnute rcn...@hotmail.com wrote:


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVENDELL-WATER-BOTTLE-BIDON-MADE-BY-SPECIALIZED-LARGE-GREEN-/310940844287?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item486584c0ff

 Ryan

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smoking might be good for you

[Eric Platt]

Thanks, Hugh.  Didn't see this earlier today.

Eric Platt
On Apr 25, 2014 12:27 PM, Hugh Smitham hughsmit...@gmail.com wrote:

 http://www.amazon.com/Road-Valor-Cyclist-Inspired-Nation/dp/030759064X

  I have it if you'd like to read it. I can mail it to you.

 ~Hugh

 “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
 moving.” ― Albert Einstein

 http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/




 On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:46 PM, GeorgeS chobur...@gmail.com wrote:

 Eric:  Who is the author of Road to Valor?
 George Strickler
 New Orleans, La.


 On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:40:54 PM UTC-5, EricP wrote:

 Made me smile, too.  BTW, it reminds me that the book Road to Valor is a
 nice biography of Bartali.  Not sure if all allegations are true, but if
 so, he really was a hero in more than just racing.  Pretty sure this book
 was talke about on this list when it came out.

 Eric Platt
 St. Paul, MN


 On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 6:52 PM, hsmitham hughs...@gmail.com wrote:

  Tom,

 Thank you for bringing a smile to my face. The great Gino Bartali
 smoked too and won two tours 10 years apart. On some level they must have
 known it wasn't beneficial to their riding? Or maybe not.

 ~Hugh


 On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 3:33:36 PM UTC-7, Tom Virgil wrote:

 and maybe not https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202183233317395

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[RBW] Re: FS: Grand Bois rando bars, Soma Brevet bars + 650B wheelset

[TomT]

Everything's sold. Thnx all.


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[RBW] Re: 7 speed cassette question

[dougP]

My guess is Shimano has multiple vendors making cassettes.  I've seen them 
with both rivets and allen head screws.  The rivets come off easily enough 
with either a cold chisel or a file.  I've had some that were like butter, 
one whack  the head popped off.  Others only responded to grinding.  In 
any case, the screws or rivets only serve to hold the cassette together for 
handling  installation, and serve no purpose once the cassette is 
installed.  

dougP

On Friday, April 25, 2014 11:04:52 AM UTC-7, Zack wrote:

 So it was, after all, the rivets.  They aren't hex screws any more.  The 
 rivets were not allowing the spacer to do it's job properly, resulting in 
 some wobble in the cassette.  Since I tightened the living snot out of the 
 cassette (a different story for a different time, but, suffice to say, the 
 correct torque to put on the cassette is N-1, where N=how much torque I put 
 on it) the spacer had a couple ridges, LBS filed those ridges out, 
 everything is a-ok now.  


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[RBW] Re: Student you guys helped update

[dougP]

Good to see the Chiang Mai Rivendell group is still active.  You guys have 
been quiet for a while.  Still hoping to see you here in OC someday.  

dougP

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 8:51:05 PM UTC-7, Kip Otteson wrote:

 Hey, guys.  Thanks again for helping out the student Kan kyi that I wrote 
 about earlier.  He is enrolled in the UBI course for the month of October 
 in Portland and will be going to the USA in June to intern at the Community 
 Cycling Center in Portland.  He is planning on doing work with the BTA as 
 well.  He wants to learn community organizing and bicycle repair so that he 
 can bring these skills back to Chiang Mai and start a community bike shop.  
 He's been organizing alleycat races in Chiang Mai and it's bringing all 
 kinds of kids together from all types of backgrounds. Here's a link to a 
 video of the first race.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp6dLjKwheUfeature=youtu.be

 If you see a fat beardy guy on a tandem with a cute little girl that's me 
 and my daughter.

 Thanks again.

 Kip Otteson
 Chiang Mai, Thailand


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grey Blue, Blue Grey Sam Hillborne touch up paint.

[Bill Lindsay]

It's true that it's not a huge effort.  Gunnar (waterford) actively does 
it, but they charge a lot, offer no refunds and smartly they guarantee that 
touch up paint never will match perfectly.  $20 for a bottle if you have a 
one-step color (like Atlantis Green).  $30 if your color is two-step (like 
Hilsen Blue).  $50 if your color is a special pearl or similar (like many 
Heron Colors).  They list several Rivendell colors in their drop down 
menus.  Maybe if you call Rivendell and ask them they could recommend which 
$20 Gunnar color would be the closest to Sam-Blue.  



On Thursday, April 24, 2014 4:34:10 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

 I'm sorry but if the  bikes are batch painted one color it would not be a 
 huge effort to bottle some for touch up paint. Or at least it would seem. 
 On Apr 24, 2014 5:28 PM, Michael john1...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 Clear coat it and enjoy the badge of honor.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[James Warren]

The OP did carefully go to the '99 archived website to try to research the exact model and year that he was getting. So it's not accurate to say that models changing over the years was the reason for his clearance expectations not being met.However, Rivendell wasn't being deceptive in 1999. The excerpt in the OP's message says that 1999-Riv claims the bike can fit 700x35 with no fender. I would believe that it could fit a 1999 Pasela tire with the label "700x35" on it. (At this time, Rivendell was heavily selling the Panaracer Pasela in 700x35 as a wide road tire option, and it is quite likely that they were referring to this tire specifically in their Heron literature at the time.) The '99 Pasela tire says "35" but like many tires of its day, the nominal number was greater than its actual width.So, as others have said, I'm pretty sure the discrepancy here is that many modern 32's are probably similar to or wider than the Pasela 35's of 1999. It wasn't until several years after 1999 that Rivendell, to their credit, started celebrating companies who began to make their tires' labels match their true widths. Also keep in mind, rim width can affect tire width.So Riv in 1999 wasn't being deceptive; their literature was reflecting a status quo where tire labels were overestimating their true dimension. I think that's the only thing going on here. But you can't say it has anything to do with Heron changing ownership, because Jim, the original poster did his homework, carefully seeking the literature specific to the model he was getting. The only problem was that the referenced tire language in that literature doesn't apply anymore. Tires have changed in 15 years.It's gonna be a great bike! Post photos.-Jim W.-Original Message-
From: Bill Lindsay 
Sent: Apr 25, 2014 1:09 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

It is a huge bummer when you think you're going to run a 35 and find that a 32 barely fits. On Thursday, April 24, 2014 1:28:00 PM UTC-7, Jim Martin wrote:Hello All:I just purchased a beautiful used 1999 Waterford built Heron and you can see the sellers ad here. Before buying it I looked at the archived version of the Heron website for 99 and read: "A Heron Road has lots of the same features as a Rivendell,
 and is just as versatile.  You can put fenders on it or ride it with 
700x35s on bad roads and fire trails, and you can race it on a smooth 
course."So imagine my surprise when I tried to install my wheels with 32mm Conti Sport Contact tires. And found that they are within about a half a mm of the rear brake bridge. No way you could ride a 35mm tire. Certainly can't ride the 32's with fenders and its hard to know if I can get fenders and 28mm tires to work either. Why the misleading information? I'm not blaming the seller because, after going straight to the web site, I already "knew" about tire clearance I didn't bother to ask him. So much for my trust in all things related to Rivendell. Jim



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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[James Warren]

Sorry, let me amend that last sentence from "tires have changed in 15 years" to "tire dimension labeling has changed in 15 years."-Original Message-
From: James Warren 
Sent: Apr 25, 2014 3:54 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

The OP did carefully go to the '99 archived website to try to research the exact model and year that he was getting. So it's not accurate to say that models changing over the years was the reason for his clearance expectations not being met.However, Rivendell wasn't being deceptive in 1999. The excerpt in the OP's message says that 1999-Riv claims the bike can fit 700x35 with no fender. I would believe that it could fit a 1999 Pasela tire with the label "700x35" on it. (At this time, Rivendell was heavily selling the Panaracer Pasela in 700x35 as a wide road tire option, and it is quite likely that they were referring to this tire specifically in their Heron literature at the time.) The '99 Pasela tire says "35" but like many tires of its day, the nominal number was greater than its actual width.So, as others have said, I'm pretty sure the discrepancy here is that many modern 32's are probably similar to or wider than the Pasela 35's of 1999. It wasn't until several years after 1999 that Rivendell, to their credit, started celebrating companies who began to make their tires' labels match their true widths. Also keep in mind, rim width can affect tire width.So Riv in 1999 wasn't being deceptive; their literature was reflecting a status quo where tire labels were overestimating their true dimension. I think that's the only thing going on here. But you can't say it has anything to do with Heron changing ownership, because Jim, the original poster did his homework, carefully seeking the literature specific to the model he was getting. The only problem was that the referenced tire language in that literature doesn't apply anymore. Tires have changed in 15 years.It's gonna be a great bike! Post photos.-Jim W.-Original Message-
From: Bill Lindsay 
Sent: Apr 25, 2014 1:09 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

It is a huge bummer when you think you're going to run a 35 and find that a 32 barely fits. On Thursday, April 24, 2014 1:28:00 PM UTC-7, Jim Martin wrote:Hello All:I just purchased a beautiful used 1999 Waterford built Heron and you can see the sellers ad here. Before buying it I looked at the archived version of the Heron website for 99 and read: "A Heron Road has lots of the same features as a Rivendell,
 and is just as versatile.  You can put fenders on it or ride it with 
700x35s on bad roads and fire trails, and you can race it on a smooth 
course."So imagine my surprise when I tried to install my wheels with 32mm Conti Sport Contact tires. And found that they are within about a half a mm of the rear brake bridge. No way you could ride a 35mm tire. Certainly can't ride the 32's with fenders and its hard to know if I can get fenders and 28mm tires to work either. Why the misleading information? I'm not blaming the seller because, after going straight to the web site, I already "knew" about tire clearance I didn't bother to ask him. So much for my trust in all things related to Rivendell. Jim



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[RBW] Altus! Love the cheap derailer BLUG

[Bill Lindsay]

I love the BLUG post on cheap derailers.  Especially when you are using 
friction shifting, your derailer doesn't do much of anything.  It makes so 
much sense to use cheap ones.  Cyclists tend to brag about what they can 
break when they abuse the crap out of their equipment.  There's a lot less 
bragging about how much use you can squeeze out of inexpensive equipment by 
not abusing it.  I'm tempted to run that $24 Altus on my 2x9 Hillborne.  

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/d17.htm

Ultra cheap front derailers can be awesome as well.  Front hubs are also a 
dime a dozen.  

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[RBW] Re: 10 speed conundrum(s)

[Jeremy Till]

For shimano and SRAM,10spd road and mountain use the same cog spacing.  
Cable pull ratios are what distinguish Shimano dyna-sis (10spd mountain) 
derailleurs from their other derailleurs.  I have successfully wide range 
STI setups for customers exactly as you are describing: 10spd road 
brifters, 10spd mountain cassette, and 9spd mountain derailleur.

On Friday, April 25, 2014 8:41:09 AM UTC-7, Jim Bronson wrote:

 I'm building up a new frame, and trying to keep it a secret, at least, 
 until I thin the herd.  So I was thinking I would re-use, scavenge or just 
 get parts out of my box of odds and ends, as much as I can.

 So I have these 10 speed Ultegra 6700 brifters that I got a while back for 
 a stupid cheap price.  Literally, less than the cost of 10 speed bar ends.  
 They were a takeoff from a brand new bike who's owner's hands were too 
 small and she switched to SRAM.  So they are practically brand new.  I 
 figure, I may as well use them for a while, that way I don't have to go 
 drop $100 on a new pair of 9/8/whatever speed bar ends.

 The issue is though, I wanted to use a cassette with a 34 big ring.  It 
 seems that 10 speed MTB Shimano derailers are not compatible with 10 speed 
 Shimano road shifters.  I don't know why this would be.  I see all the 10 
 speed MTB stuff is labeled DynaSys

 I do have a 9 speed Shimano MTB derailer, model M-592, that I do have 
 lying around and I have found postings out there on the Internet that say 9 
 speed Shimano MTB derailers should work fine for shifting a road 10 speed 
 setup.  Of course, you know what they say about stuff you find on the 
 Internet.  The derailer is super ugly and Transformers looking, but just to 
 get me going for now if it would work, that would be great.

 Then, considering other compatibility issues, what about the 10 speed 
 cassettes?  Is the spacing different between 10 speed road and 10 speed 
 Mountain?  What about SRAM cassettes in 10 speed, are they compatible with 
 Shimano road 10 or is that something else altogether?

 Lastly, what about chains?  Shimano seems to have some weird 10 speed 
 chains that are directional and so forth.  Is that really necessary or can 
 I just use a SRAM (10 speed) chain like I have in the past?  (or KMC, etc).

 I suppose I could circumvent some of these issues by just using a Tiagra 
 4600 12-30 with a Tiagra long cage, that should work for sure.  But I 
 wanted a few more teeth on that big cog.

 Well anyway, any knowledge on this subject appreciated.  I liked it better 
 when all the Shimano compatible gear more or less worked together.  I can 
 see why people resist going to 10 speed, they put all kinds of obstacles in 
 your way to run a Rivvy drivetrain.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Errandonnee Runner

[cyclotourist]

Perfect!!!

Cheers,
David

it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal





On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Shoji Takahashi shoji.takaha...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Here's more on the Brewvet Challenge:

 http://portajohn.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/brewvet-challenge-what-you-need-to-know/




 On Friday, April 25, 2014 1:06:04 PM UTC-4, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

 Keep us postedon the Brewvet... that sounds like something to not be
 missed!

 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 7:13:25 PM UTC-7, Shoji Takahashi wrote:

 Hey Patrick,
 I'm really happy to hear about how the bike (a Hunqapillar no less!) has
 changed your life. I've learned a lot from you and many on this board.

 The Errandonnee patch is from Mary G's Winter Challenge:
 http://chasingmailboxes.com/2014/03/04/winter-challenge-
 the-errandonnee-2014-edition/

 She's a sometimes poster, quite often Quickbeamer, and I think there are
 a few more Rivs in their home. IIRC, Tony D's agapanthus purple 'luki was
 featured in her flickr stream.

 For those beer inclined, there's a Brewvet in the works May 1 - June 10.

 happy riding,
 shoji


 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 10:03:12 PM UTC-4, hsmitham wrote:

 Deacon,

 I love that notion. I need to find that patch. Yes I agree the bicycle
 is therapeutic...cause it works for me.

 ~Hugh

 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 6:17:30 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Shojo's photo, https://www.flickr.com/photos/stakx/14001712894/,
 reminded me:

 With my wimpy brain, it's not often I get to ride Errandonnees, but
 they've been happening more often since I got the Post to agree to bring 
 my
 mail outside to me (it is so scented inside I can't go in to get our mail
 from our box), and today I popped to the LBS and bought what I needed from
 the front porch, with the owner being very helpful, bringing things out 
 for
 me to choose between. Then I hit some nearby sloppy melting single track
 and had coffee outside. It was a grand morning!

 It's not much, but my world is expanding bit by bit, in part thanks to
 me bike.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*

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Re: [RBW] Altus! Love the cheap derailer BLUG

[Jim Bronson]

I thought they should have gotten the M370 Altus  which indexes 9 speed and
looks somewhat normal:
http://www.ebikestop.com/shimano_altus_m370_9_speed_rear_derailleur_silver-RD0001.php

But I do like the fact that the Altus uses the bigger wheels rather than a
longer cage to accommodate larger cogs or really, wrap more chain.  It's an
aesthetically pleasing approach.  I'm sure the novel approach to achieve
the same end and at a low price point was an appealing opportunity for
Grant to drop some knowledge.

Now, if someone would just make a beautiful shiny cheap derailer, that
would really be something to trumpet.  Is it so expensive to make things in
super shiny polished silver?


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Bill Lindsay tapebu...@gmail.com wrote:

 I love the BLUG post on cheap derailers.  Especially when you are using
 friction shifting, your derailer doesn't do much of anything.  It makes so
 much sense to use cheap ones.  Cyclists tend to brag about what they can
 break when they abuse the crap out of their equipment.  There's a lot less
 bragging about how much use you can squeeze out of inexpensive equipment by
 not abusing it.  I'm tempted to run that $24 Altus on my 2x9 Hillborne.

 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/d17.htm

 Ultra cheap front derailers can be awesome as well.  Front hubs are also a
 dime a dozen.

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Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

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Re: [RBW] Altus! Love the cheap derailer BLUG

[Jim Bronson]

Looks like Grant made a math error towards the bottom, 22 + 21 = 43, not 44.

Big chainring 46. Small 24. That diff is 22.
Big cassette tooth 32, small 11, that’s 21t

The 44t diff exceeds by a tooth, but two things here: One, I bet Shimano
gives you a tooth to work with, and the bigger TWO, the wrap capacity
assumes you’ll be riding on the 24t x 11t combination, which of course you
shouldn’t. That’s the one that requires 44t of wrap. You should use the
small chainring only with the biggest four or five rear cogs, in which case
the 43t wrapacity is way more than enough.

Maybe he did it on purpose to make the point that Shimano is very
conservative in their ratings?


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Jim Bronson jim.bron...@gmail.com wrote:

 I thought they should have gotten the M370 Altus  which indexes 9 speed
 and looks somewhat normal:

 http://www.ebikestop.com/shimano_altus_m370_9_speed_rear_derailleur_silver-RD0001.php

 But I do like the fact that the Altus uses the bigger wheels rather than a
 longer cage to accommodate larger cogs or really, wrap more chain.  It's an
 aesthetically pleasing approach.  I'm sure the novel approach to achieve
 the same end and at a low price point was an appealing opportunity for
 Grant to drop some knowledge.

 Now, if someone would just make a beautiful shiny cheap derailer, that
 would really be something to trumpet.  Is it so expensive to make things in
 super shiny polished silver?


 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Bill Lindsay tapebu...@gmail.com wrote:

 I love the BLUG post on cheap derailers.  Especially when you are using
 friction shifting, your derailer doesn't do much of anything.  It makes so
 much sense to use cheap ones.  Cyclists tend to brag about what they can
 break when they abuse the crap out of their equipment.  There's a lot less
 bragging about how much use you can squeeze out of inexpensive equipment by
 not abusing it.  I'm tempted to run that $24 Altus on my 2x9 Hillborne.

 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/d17.htm

 Ultra cheap front derailers can be awesome as well.  Front hubs are also
 a dime a dozen.

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 --
 Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!




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[RBW] Re: Appaloosa Prototype on Blug?

[eric wallacker]

Went to BBH on Main Street on rode the prototype. According to the 
employee, it is an updated Hunqapillar. Was a nice riding bike.

On Friday, April 11, 2014 9:42:56 AM UTC-7, eric wallacker wrote:

  My assumption is that the proto-blue bike is the not-officially-named 
 but aforementioned one-size-for the tall-guy (ME!) Clem Smith, Jr.

 On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 8:29:31 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:

 Check it out in all it's blue-ness!

 http://rivbike.tumblr.com

 Cheers!
 Chris



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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Hugh Flynn]

An excellent point. I wouldn't necessarily expect them to have specs for a bike 
they sold 15 years ago, but it is hard to know if you don't ask. 

They are exceptionally friendly folks too. 

Hugh 2000 Heron Road, but wish I had grabbed a Touring too Flynn

On Apr 25, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Chris Chen wrote:

 I want to repeat something that's kind of bugged me a few times:
 
 If you want to know about Rivendell Bicycles you can call or email them. They 
 will tell you to the best of their availability. They run a business; it's in 
 their interests to tell you what you want to know. They're not a church; 
 you're not going to the Oracle at Delphi and you don't need to light incense.
 
 If you don't call, or feel sheepish about asking the Great Riv Gods, and 
 something doesn't work out, don't blame them.
 
 (This is not directly related to this situation but...)
 
 We're not digging up dinosaur bones people. This is a going concern.
 
 cc
 
 
 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:31 PM, David Hays 23writ...@gmail.com wrote:
 Last year I picked up my first Rivendell, a 650B 56 Homer that is listed as 
 accepting tires up to 41mm.
 I had done a lot of research in this group but still felt lucky and relieved 
 when 42mm Hetre's and fenders fit without incident.
 David
 
 
 On Apr 25, 2014, at 3:26 PM, Evan Baird vanster...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Like it was made for em.
 
 On Friday, April 25, 2014 10:53:16 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:
 Jim-
 
 Seems like a small thing to get so offended by.  However, I was in your 
 shoes when I picked up my '97 Rivendell Road.  Riv Catalog 3 (1997) states 
 that the Riv Road has clearance for 700x35c tires, but mine barely clears a 
 700x28c tire, with about 1 mm to spare under the brake bridge and fork crown.
 
 I was kinda disappointed to miss out on all this fluffy-yet-fast wide 
 tires thing that Riv folks were so excited about.  
 
 But, the intervening years since my Riv's creation have produced some 
 alternative solutions.  650b wheels, tires, and long-reach sidepulls are now 
 easily available.  I converted my Riv Road to 650b, and now it fits a 38mm 
 wide tire and full fenders.  It has a great, comfy ride that feels 
 wonderful, yet it's not appreciably slower than with larger diameter 700x28c.
 
 I'm not sure if Riv's specifications were slightly optimistic, if it's the 
 difference in tires since then, or what.  It was frustrating to find out my 
 Riv is a bit of a lemon, but it's made some excellent lemonade!
 
 And it's really made me want an Atlantis or Hunq for fat 700c tire touring...
 
 Tim Gavin
 Cedar Rapids, IA
 
 
 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Cyclofiend Jim cyclo...@earthlink.net 
 wrote:
 Jim - 
 
 I have to say that I'm not really following your point. Certainly, it's got 
 to be frustrating to purchase something that doesn't do what you hoped it 
 would.  But, I'm not sure how you get from a 15 year old archived web page 
 to losing trust in Rivendell.  Second to that, tire profiles have changed a 
 bit in the ensuing time frame.  More round now, more larger sizes now.  And 
 every rim makes a tire sit a bit differently.  
 
 With a couple of google stabs, I found several ref's to folks selling Heron 
 roads (not sure on the model years), describing tire clearances that ran 
 from 28 to 38.  Enough that it would have caused concern enough to confirm 
 with the seller.
 
 Heron was spun off from Rivendell long ago.  Different models, different 
 owner, a different company.
 
 Sorry to hear you had a bad outcome, but I don't think it's particularly 
 appropriate to draw a far-reaching conclusion about trust from those data 
 points.
 
 - Jim
 
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 I want the 

Re: [RBW] Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

Disagree.  RX100 long reach DPs were around then, and those are still some of 
my favorite brakes.  If you wanted longer, you dropped to BMX quality, but 
Tektro's superlongs were available by 2003.

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Re: [RBW] Altus! Love the cheap derailer BLUG

[Ron Mc]

I'm not a weight weenie, but it weighs exactly three-fourths of a freaking 
pound.  If you need full wrap capacity, you're doing something wrong, and 
it's mostly gearing in bad chainline.  

On Friday, April 25, 2014 8:12:51 PM UTC-5, Jim Bronson wrote:

 Looks like Grant made a math error towards the bottom, 22 + 21 = 43, not 
 44.

 Big chainring 46. Small 24. That diff is 22.
 Big cassette tooth 32, small 11, that’s 21t

 The 44t diff exceeds by a tooth, but two things here: One, I bet Shimano 
 gives you a tooth to work with, and the bigger TWO, the wrap capacity 
 assumes you’ll be riding on the 24t x 11t combination, which of course you 
 shouldn’t. That’s the one that requires 44t of wrap. You should use the 
 small chainring only with the biggest four or five rear cogs, in which case 
 the 43t wrapacity is way more than enough.

 Maybe he did it on purpose to make the point that Shimano is very 
 conservative in their ratings?


 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Jim Bronson jim.b...@gmail.comjavascript:
  wrote:

 I thought they should have gotten the M370 Altus  which indexes 9 speed 
 and looks somewhat normal:

 http://www.ebikestop.com/shimano_altus_m370_9_speed_rear_derailleur_silver-RD0001.php

 But I do like the fact that the Altus uses the bigger wheels rather than 
 a longer cage to accommodate larger cogs or really, wrap more chain.  It's 
 an aesthetically pleasing approach.  I'm sure the novel approach to achieve 
 the same end and at a low price point was an appealing opportunity for 
 Grant to drop some knowledge.

 Now, if someone would just make a beautiful shiny cheap derailer, that 
 would really be something to trumpet.  Is it so expensive to make things in 
 super shiny polished silver?
  

 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Bill Lindsay tape...@gmail.comjavascript:
  wrote:

 I love the BLUG post on cheap derailers.  Especially when you are using 
 friction shifting, your derailer doesn't do much of anything.  It makes so 
 much sense to use cheap ones.  Cyclists tend to brag about what they can 
 break when they abuse the crap out of their equipment.  There's a lot less 
 bragging about how much use you can squeeze out of inexpensive equipment by 
 not abusing it.  I'm tempted to run that $24 Altus on my 2x9 Hillborne.  

 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/d17.htm

 Ultra cheap front derailers can be awesome as well.  Front hubs are also 
 a dime a dozen.  
  
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 Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down! 




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 Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down! 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Indeed.  I used to run 32 Paselas and they rarely mic'd out larger than 
30 mm's.  Pasela tire casings were changed (someone would have to be 
enthusiastic enough about this to troll through the iBob archives - I 
recall when this happened there was much chatter and talk about that) to a 
rounder, more true profile sometimes in the early to middle aughts.

- Jim

On Friday, April 25, 2014 3:59:51 PM UTC-7, James Warren wrote:


 Sorry, let me amend that last sentence from tires have changed in 15 
 years to tire dimension labeling has changed in 15 years.

 -Original Message- 
 From: James Warren 
 Sent: Apr 25, 2014 3:54 PM 
 To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
 Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance? 


 The OP did carefully go to the '99 archived website to try to research the 
 exact model and year that he was getting. So it's not accurate to say that 
 models changing over the years was the reason for his clearance 
 expectations not being met.

 However, Rivendell wasn't being deceptive in 1999. The excerpt in the OP's 
 message says that 1999-Riv claims the bike can fit 700x35 with no fender. I 
 would believe that it could fit a 1999 Pasela tire with the label 700x35 
 on it. (At this time, Rivendell was heavily selling the Panaracer Pasela in 
 700x35 as a wide road tire option, and it is quite likely that they were 
 referring to this tire specifically in their Heron literature at the time.) 
 The '99 Pasela tire says 35 but like many tires of its day, the nominal 
 number was greater than its actual width.

 So, as others have said, I'm pretty sure the discrepancy here is that many 
 modern 32's are probably similar to or wider than the Pasela 35's of 1999. 
 It wasn't until several years after 1999 that Rivendell, to their credit, 
 started celebrating companies who began to make their tires' labels match 
 their true widths. Also keep in mind, rim width can affect tire width.

 So Riv in 1999 wasn't being deceptive; their literature was reflecting a 
 status quo where tire labels were overestimating their true dimension. I 
 think that's the only thing going on here. But you can't say it has 
 anything to do with Heron changing ownership, because Jim, the original 
 poster did his homework, carefully seeking the literature specific to the 
 model he was getting. The only problem was that the referenced tire 
 language in that literature doesn't apply anymore. Tires have changed in 15 
 years.

 It's gonna be a great bike! Post photos.

 -Jim W.

 -Original Message- 
 From: Bill Lindsay 
 Sent: Apr 25, 2014 1:09 PM 
 To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
 Subject: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance? 

 It is a huge bummer when you think you're going to run a 35 and find that 
 a 32 barely fits.  

 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 1:28:00 PM UTC-7, Jim Martin wrote:

 Hello All:

 I just purchased a beautiful used 1999 Waterford built Heron and you can 
 see the sellers ad 
 herehttp://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=146608highlight=heron. 
 Before buying it I looked at the archived version of the Heron website 
 for 
 99http://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.heronbicycles.com/general_info.htmland
  read: 
 A Heron Road has lots of the same features as a 
 Rivendellhttp://web.archive.org/web/2510073030/http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/,
  
 and is just as versatile. You can put fenders on it or ride it with 700x35s 
 on bad roads and fire trails, and you can race it on a smooth course.

 So imagine my surprise when I tried to install my wheels with 32mm Conti 
 Sport Contact tires. And found that they are within about a half a mm of 
 the rear brake bridge. No way you could ride a 35mm tire. Certainly can't 
 ride the 32's with fenders and its hard to know if I can get fenders and 
 28mm tires to work either. Why the misleading information? I'm not blaming 
 the seller because, after going straight to the web site, I already knew 
 about tire clearance I didn't bother to ask him. So much for my trust in 
 all things related to Rivendell.  

 Jim

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[RBW] Re: Student you guys helped update

[Kip Otteson]

Doug, I'll be there summer after this one.  I'll be hooking up for a ride 
for sure.  Come on out whenever you get the itch.

On Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:43:11 AM UTC+7, dougP wrote:

 Good to see the Chiang Mai Rivendell group is still active.  You guys have 
 been quiet for a while.  Still hoping to see you here in OC someday.  

 dougP

 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 8:51:05 PM UTC-7, Kip Otteson wrote:

 Hey, guys.  Thanks again for helping out the student Kan kyi that I wrote 
 about earlier.  He is enrolled in the UBI course for the month of October 
 in Portland and will be going to the USA in June to intern at the Community 
 Cycling Center in Portland.  He is planning on doing work with the BTA as 
 well.  He wants to learn community organizing and bicycle repair so that he 
 can bring these skills back to Chiang Mai and start a community bike shop.  
 He's been organizing alleycat races in Chiang Mai and it's bringing all 
 kinds of kids together from all types of backgrounds. Here's a link to a 
 video of the first race.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp6dLjKwheUfeature=youtu.be

 If you see a fat beardy guy on a tandem with a cute little girl that's me 
 and my daughter.

 Thanks again.

 Kip Otteson
 Chiang Mai, Thailand



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Re: [RBW] Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[Steven Frederick]

They weren't when the Heron Road was introduced, though.  Rather than adapt
the Heron to take advantage of the increase in clearance, Grant introduced
the Rambouillet...


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro 
marchantshap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Disagree.  RX100 long reach DPs were around then, and those are still some
 of my favorite brakes.  If you wanted longer, you dropped to BMX quality,
 but Tektro's superlongs were available by 2003.

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[RBW] Re: Student you guys helped update

[dougP]

It's always summer in Thailand!  Seriously, keep in touch  give us yet 
another reason for a Riv ride.  

dougP

On Friday, April 25, 2014 6:36:31 PM UTC-7, Kip Otteson wrote:

 Doug, I'll be there summer after this one.  I'll be hooking up for a ride 
 for sure.  Come on out whenever you get the itch.

 On Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:43:11 AM UTC+7, dougP wrote:

 Good to see the Chiang Mai Rivendell group is still active.  You guys 
 have been quiet for a while.  Still hoping to see you here in OC someday.  

 dougP

 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 8:51:05 PM UTC-7, Kip Otteson wrote:

 Hey, guys.  Thanks again for helping out the student Kan kyi that I 
 wrote about earlier.  He is enrolled in the UBI course for the month of 
 October in Portland and will be going to the USA in June to intern at the 
 Community Cycling Center in Portland.  He is planning on doing work with 
 the BTA as well.  He wants to learn community organizing and bicycle repair 
 so that he can bring these skills back to Chiang Mai and start a community 
 bike shop.  He's been organizing alleycat races in Chiang Mai and it's 
 bringing all kinds of kids together from all types of backgrounds. Here's a 
 link to a video of the first race.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp6dLjKwheUfeature=youtu.be

 If you see a fat beardy guy on a tandem with a cute little girl that's 
 me and my daughter.

 Thanks again.

 Kip Otteson
 Chiang Mai, Thailand



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[RBW] Re: Altus! Love the cheap derailer BLUG

[dougP]

I'm impressed that any rear derailer can retail for $24.  There are quite a 
few moving parts made to close tolerances just for the thing to function.  
I actually think the Altus looks pretty good, at least in the photo.  

BTW, I had one of the referenced Univega Gran Rallys with the 600 stuff.  
It was the Arabesque with all the scrolly looking work.  At one point I got 
the itch to upgrade but the guys at my LBS told me that the best Campy 
drive components wouldn't shift as nicely as the Shimano, and as to the 
brakes, don't even think about it.

dougP  


On Friday, April 25, 2014 4:09:10 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

 I love the BLUG post on cheap derailers.  Especially when you are using 
 friction shifting, your derailer doesn't do much of anything.  It makes so 
 much sense to use cheap ones.  Cyclists tend to brag about what they can 
 break when they abuse the crap out of their equipment.  There's a lot less 
 bragging about how much use you can squeeze out of inexpensive equipment by 
 not abusing it.  I'm tempted to run that $24 Altus on my 2x9 Hillborne.  

 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/d17.htm

 Ultra cheap front derailers can be awesome as well.  Front hubs are also a 
 dime a dozen.  


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[RBW] Rivish Trek 970 Commuter

[Montclair BobbyB]

I had been searching for a nice Trek 900 series frame for awhile, and 
finally I found the right one to build into a nice commuter.

Here's a quick shot of it, and a link to more pics.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KT7FutbYQ-M/U1sYwX1IbhI/EmQ/BBQWBmxuziM/s1600/image_1.jpg.jpeg

The influence of this group keeps compelling me to build up more bikes like 
this...  Some day it will find a nice home elsewhere, but until then I will 
covet this baby and ride it like I stole it. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16461051@N04/sets/72157644318972814/

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[RBW] Re: New SRAM chain noiser than previous Shimano chain?

[Tim Tetrault]

Solved- I had it routed correctly, but on the wrong side of the connected 
cage piece. The little things.

On Friday, April 25, 2014 1:00:08 PM UTC-7, Tim Tetrault wrote:

 Hi Group-

 Just replaced the chain on my '12 Hillborne. My previous chain was an 
 XT/Ultegra 9 speed. Current chain is a SRAM PC 991 (SRAM's high-end 9s 
 chain). 

 Installation was very easy, but this thing sounds like a rachet riding 
 along, and I am certain it's not FD rub. 

 Is this normal? Did I put it on backwards? 

 Other items you might want to know- SLX 9s cassette: 11-34, Sugino 
 26-36-46 triple. SLX 9s rear derailleur.

 Any clues? The cassette is now on it's 3rd chain, doesn't look too worn, 
 but maybe I need to break in the chain to the cassette?

 Very thankful for this braintrust-

 Tim

 Seattle, WA


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[RBW] Fwd: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Anne Paulson]

I'm a big fan of low, low gears. I have them on both my Atlantises; my
Roadeo has pretty low gears too considering I never carry much on it.
People always say to me, I don't want lower gears because then I couldn't
balance. I never understood that. I don't have a bit of problem riding at
2.5 mph for long periods of time when I'm climbing something ridiculously
steep on one of my Rivendell bikes.

But now I understand. I thought when I bought my new Surly Krampus mountain
bike I'd be able to climb even steeper dirt roads than I now can climb on
my Atlanti. I thought, I have an absurdly low gear on the Krampus (15.6
inches, something like that), I have all the traction in the world, I can
climb anything.

But no. I'm finding that I climb *worse* on the Krampus. It's frustrating.
There are dirt sections that I have no trouble on with the Atlantis, with
smooth tires, that I can't climb on the Krampus with the knobbies.

What's going on here? Front-end geometry? Wheel weight? Bottom bracket
height? I'm beginning to think I should have bought the Surly ECR (like
several people recommended) instead of the Krampus. Or maybe I just need to
learn how to climb on this new bike.

On the other hand, when I bought the bike I also thought I'd be able to go
down steep trails that I'm afraid to descend on the Atlantis, and that has
proved to be true. My husband took one look at my new bike and said, Wow,
you have better traction on that than you have on foot. When I apply the
brakes on a steep downhill, the bike *slows down* instead of skidding.

-- 
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Fwd: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Bertin753]

*Very* interesting. What more particularly are you experiencing when you cling 
so slowly with such low gears? Front end wobble? It would help to know more 
precisely what exactly you experience.

I've never been good at balancing at very low speeds; I really do fall over if 
I go too slowly. But I'd like to know more exactly why you can't just gear down 
and track more slowly with a lower gear.


Patrick Moore
iPhone

 On Apr 25, 2014, at 9:27 PM, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  
 I'm a big fan of low, low gears. I have them on both my Atlantises; my Roadeo 
 has pretty low gears too considering I never carry much on it. People always 
 say to me, I don't want lower gears because then I couldn't balance. I 
 never understood that. I don't have a bit of problem riding at 2.5 mph for 
 long periods of time when I'm climbing something ridiculously steep on one of 
 my Rivendell bikes.
 
 But now I understand. I thought when I bought my new Surly Krampus mountain 
 bike I'd be able to climb even steeper dirt roads than I now can climb on my 
 Atlanti. I thought, I have an absurdly low gear on the Krampus (15.6 inches, 
 something like that), I have all the traction in the world, I can climb 
 anything.
 
 But no. I'm finding that I climb *worse* on the Krampus. It's frustrating. 
 There are dirt sections that I have no trouble on with the Atlantis, with 
 smooth tires, that I can't climb on the Krampus with the knobbies.
 
 What's going on here? Front-end geometry? Wheel weight? Bottom bracket 
 height? I'm beginning to think I should have bought the Surly ECR (like 
 several people recommended) instead of the Krampus. Or maybe I just need to 
 learn how to climb on this new bike.
 
 On the other hand, when I bought the bike I also thought I'd be able to go 
 down steep trails that I'm afraid to descend on the Atlantis, and that has 
 proved to be true. My husband took one look at my new bike and said, Wow, you 
 have better traction on that than you have on foot. When I apply the brakes 
 on a steep downhill, the bike *slows down* instead of skidding.
 
 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson
 
 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
 
  
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[RBW] Re: Altus! Love the cheap derailer BLUG

[Ron Mc]

the Arabesque was more than pretty, It weighs 190g and one of the best 
derailleurs ever made.  I ran a narrow 8-speed on it before I upgraded to 
a Campy

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/bulldog1935/Raleigh/F%20Moser/aP5190022.jpg
 

it was a standard for Italian road bikes in the 80s.  


On Friday, April 25, 2014 9:20:30 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:

 I'm impressed that any rear derailer can retail for $24.  There are quite 
 a few moving parts made to close tolerances just for the thing to 
 function.  I actually think the Altus looks pretty good, at least in the 
 photo.  

 BTW, I had one of the referenced Univega Gran Rallys with the 600 stuff.  
 It was the Arabesque with all the scrolly looking work.  At one point I got 
 the itch to upgrade but the guys at my LBS told me that the best Campy 
 drive components wouldn't shift as nicely as the Shimano, and as to the 
 brakes, don't even think about it.

 dougP  


 On Friday, April 25, 2014 4:09:10 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

 I love the BLUG post on cheap derailers.  Especially when you are using 
 friction shifting, your derailer doesn't do much of anything.  It makes so 
 much sense to use cheap ones.  Cyclists tend to brag about what they can 
 break when they abuse the crap out of their equipment.  There's a lot less 
 bragging about how much use you can squeeze out of inexpensive equipment by 
 not abusing it.  I'm tempted to run that $24 Altus on my 2x9 Hillborne.  

 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/d17.htm

 Ultra cheap front derailers can be awesome as well.  Front hubs are also 
 a dime a dozen.  



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Re: [RBW] Fwd: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Anne Paulson]

That's a good question, and I'm not sure what the answer is. On my
Atlantis, I'm able to pedal pretty much until I just can't turn the wheels
any more. With the Krampus, I certainly notice that the front wheel has
less weight on it. On a steep hill on the Krampus, I have to work to make
sure the front wheel tracks; I deliberately lean down and pull back on the
handlebars. I'm not sure what I'm encountering when I stop in the middle of
the steep section and feel like I can't ride any more. Certainly I'm
breathing pretty darn hard. It feels like I just can't pedal any more, but
it may be that it's just the front wheel not tracking.


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 8:36 PM, Bertin753 bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

 *Very* interesting. What more particularly are you experiencing when you
 cling so slowly with such low gears? Front end wobble? It would help to
 know more precisely what exactly you experience.

 I've never been good at balancing at very low speeds; I really do fall
 over if I go too slowly. But I'd like to know more exactly why you can't
 just gear down and track more slowly with a lower gear.


 Patrick Moore
 iPhone

 On Apr 25, 2014, at 9:27 PM, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:


 I'm a big fan of low, low gears. I have them on both my Atlantises; my
 Roadeo has pretty low gears too considering I never carry much on it.
 People always say to me, I don't want lower gears because then I couldn't
 balance. I never understood that. I don't have a bit of problem riding at
 2.5 mph for long periods of time when I'm climbing something ridiculously
 steep on one of my Rivendell bikes.

 But now I understand. I thought when I bought my new Surly Krampus
 mountain bike I'd be able to climb even steeper dirt roads than I now can
 climb on my Atlanti. I thought, I have an absurdly low gear on the Krampus
 (15.6 inches, something like that), I have all the traction in the world, I
 can climb anything.

 But no. I'm finding that I climb *worse* on the Krampus. It's frustrating.
 There are dirt sections that I have no trouble on with the Atlantis, with
 smooth tires, that I can't climb on the Krampus with the knobbies.

 What's going on here? Front-end geometry? Wheel weight? Bottom bracket
 height? I'm beginning to think I should have bought the Surly ECR (like
 several people recommended) instead of the Krampus. Or maybe I just need to
 learn how to climb on this new bike.

 On the other hand, when I bought the bike I also thought I'd be able to go
 down steep trails that I'm afraid to descend on the Atlantis, and that has
 proved to be true. My husband took one look at my new bike and said, Wow,
 you have better traction on that than you have on foot. When I apply the
 brakes on a steep downhill, the bike *slows down* instead of skidding.

 --
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance?

[James Warren]

Early to mid aughts - that sounds about right. I remember the chatter of the 
time, and I remember buying Paselas then and discerning between the old Paselas 
and the new with their more precise numbering and nicer profile.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 25, 2014, at 6:30 PM, Cyclofiend Jim cyclofi...@earthlink.net wrote:

 Indeed.  I used to run 32 Paselas and they rarely mic'd out larger than 30 
 mm's.  Pasela tire casings were changed (someone would have to be 
 enthusiastic enough about this to troll through the iBob archives - I recall 
 when this happened there was much chatter and talk about that) to a rounder, 
 more true profile sometimes in the early to middle aughts.
 
 - Jim
 
 On Friday, April 25, 2014 3:59:51 PM UTC-7, James Warren wrote:
 
 Sorry, let me amend that last sentence from tires have changed in 15 years 
 to tire dimension labeling has changed in 15 years.
 
 -Original Message- 
 From: James Warren 
 Sent: Apr 25, 2014 3:54 PM 
 To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
 Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance? 
 
 
 The OP did carefully go to the '99 archived website to try to research the 
 exact model and year that he was getting. So it's not accurate to say that 
 models changing over the years was the reason for his clearance expectations 
 not being met.
 
 However, Rivendell wasn't being deceptive in 1999. The excerpt in the OP's 
 message says that 1999-Riv claims the bike can fit 700x35 with no fender. I 
 would believe that it could fit a 1999 Pasela tire with the label 700x35 on 
 it. (At this time, Rivendell was heavily selling the Panaracer Pasela in 
 700x35 as a wide road tire option, and it is quite likely that they were 
 referring to this tire specifically in their Heron literature at the time.) 
 The '99 Pasela tire says 35 but like many tires of its day, the nominal 
 number was greater than its actual width.
 
 So, as others have said, I'm pretty sure the discrepancy here is that many 
 modern 32's are probably similar to or wider than the Pasela 35's of 1999. It 
 wasn't until several years after 1999 that Rivendell, to their credit, 
 started celebrating companies who began to make their tires' labels match 
 their true widths. Also keep in mind, rim width can affect tire width.
 
 So Riv in 1999 wasn't being deceptive; their literature was reflecting a 
 status quo where tire labels were overestimating their true dimension. I 
 think that's the only thing going on here. But you can't say it has anything 
 to do with Heron changing ownership, because Jim, the original poster did his 
 homework, carefully seeking the literature specific to the model he was 
 getting. The only problem was that the referenced tire language in that 
 literature doesn't apply anymore. Tires have changed in 15 years.
 
 It's gonna be a great bike! Post photos.
 
 -Jim W.
 
 -Original Message- 
 From: Bill Lindsay 
 Sent: Apr 25, 2014 1:09 PM 
 To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
 Subject: [RBW] Re: Heron: Why the incorrect info about tire clearance? 
 
 It is a huge bummer when you think you're going to run a 35 and find that a 
 32 barely fits.  
 
 On Thursday, April 24, 2014 1:28:00 PM UTC-7, Jim Martin wrote:
 Hello All:
 
 I just purchased a beautiful used 1999 Waterford built Heron and you can see 
 the sellers ad here. Before buying it I looked at the archived version of the 
 Heron website for 99 and read: 
 A Heron Road has lots of the same features as a Rivendell, and is just as 
 versatile. You can put fenders on it or ride it with 700x35s on bad roads and 
 fire trails, and you can race it on a smooth course.
 
 So imagine my surprise when I tried to install my wheels with 32mm Conti 
 Sport Contact tires. And found that they are within about a half a mm of the 
 rear brake bridge. No way you could ride a 35mm tire. Certainly can't ride 
 the 32's with fenders and its hard to know if I can get fenders and 28mm 
 tires to work either. Why the misleading information? I'm not blaming the 
 seller because, after going straight to the web site, I already knew about 
 tire clearance I didn't bother to ask him. So much for my trust in all things 
 related to Rivendell.  
 
 Jim
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 Visit 

[RBW] Re: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Ron Mc]

somewhere below 20 gears, you lose the gyro effect of the wheels, which 
affects your ability to keep your balance on a bicycle.  

On Friday, April 25, 2014 10:27:22 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

  
 I'm a big fan of low, low gears. I have them on both my Atlantises; my 
 Roadeo has pretty low gears too considering I never carry much on it. 
 People always say to me, I don't want lower gears because then I couldn't 
 balance. I never understood that. I don't have a bit of problem riding at 
 2.5 mph for long periods of time when I'm climbing something ridiculously 
 steep on one of my Rivendell bikes.

 But now I understand. I thought when I bought my new Surly Krampus 
 mountain bike I'd be able to climb even steeper dirt roads than I now can 
 climb on my Atlanti. I thought, I have an absurdly low gear on the Krampus 
 (15.6 inches, something like that), I have all the traction in the world, I 
 can climb anything.

 But no. I'm finding that I climb *worse* on the Krampus. It's frustrating. 
 There are dirt sections that I have no trouble on with the Atlantis, with 
 smooth tires, that I can't climb on the Krampus with the knobbies.

 What's going on here? Front-end geometry? Wheel weight? Bottom bracket 
 height? I'm beginning to think I should have bought the Surly ECR (like 
 several people recommended) instead of the Krampus. Or maybe I just need to 
 learn how to climb on this new bike.

 On the other hand, when I bought the bike I also thought I'd be able to go 
 down steep trails that I'm afraid to descend on the Atlantis, and that has 
 proved to be true. My husband took one look at my new bike and said, Wow, 
 you have better traction on that than you have on foot. When I apply the 
 brakes on a steep downhill, the bike *slows down* instead of skidding.

 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 

  


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[RBW] Re: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Ron Mc]

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mechanics/bicycle.html  
http://uw.physics.wisc.edu/~wonders/DemoBWG.html

On Friday, April 25, 2014 11:31:24 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

 somewhere below 20 gears, you lose the gyro effect of the wheels, which 
 affects your ability to keep your balance on a bicycle.  

 On Friday, April 25, 2014 10:27:22 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

  
 I'm a big fan of low, low gears. I have them on both my Atlantises; my 
 Roadeo has pretty low gears too considering I never carry much on it. 
 People always say to me, I don't want lower gears because then I couldn't 
 balance. I never understood that. I don't have a bit of problem riding at 
 2.5 mph for long periods of time when I'm climbing something ridiculously 
 steep on one of my Rivendell bikes.

 But now I understand. I thought when I bought my new Surly Krampus 
 mountain bike I'd be able to climb even steeper dirt roads than I now can 
 climb on my Atlanti. I thought, I have an absurdly low gear on the Krampus 
 (15.6 inches, something like that), I have all the traction in the world, I 
 can climb anything.

 But no. I'm finding that I climb *worse* on the Krampus. It's 
 frustrating. There are dirt sections that I have no trouble on with the 
 Atlantis, with smooth tires, that I can't climb on the Krampus with the 
 knobbies.

 What's going on here? Front-end geometry? Wheel weight? Bottom bracket 
 height? I'm beginning to think I should have bought the Surly ECR (like 
 several people recommended) instead of the Krampus. Or maybe I just need to 
 learn how to climb on this new bike.

 On the other hand, when I bought the bike I also thought I'd be able to 
 go down steep trails that I'm afraid to descend on the Atlantis, and that 
 has proved to be true. My husband took one look at my new bike and said, 
 Wow, you have better traction on that than you have on foot. When I apply 
 the brakes on a steep downhill, the bike *slows down* instead of skidding.

 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 

  



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Re: [RBW] Re: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Anne Paulson]

I have a 16.5 gear on my Atlantis, and when I'm touring I sometimes spend
hours climbing long climbs using it, so I've already abandoned whatever
gyroscopic effects are available with bigger gears.

I've read that the gyroscope effect is not relevant for bikes-- didn't
someone build an anti-gyro bike, with a second wheel spinning in the
opposite direction, and discover that it was easy to steer?


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Ron Mc bulldog...@gmail.com wrote:

 somewhere below 20 gears, you lose the gyro effect of the wheels, which
 affects your ability to keep your balance on a bicycle.


 On Friday, April 25, 2014 10:27:22 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:


 I'm a big fan of low, low gears. I have them on both my Atlantises; my
 Roadeo has pretty low gears too considering I never carry much on it.
 People always say to me, I don't want lower gears because then I couldn't
 balance. I never understood that. I don't have a bit of problem riding at
 2.5 mph for long periods of time when I'm climbing something ridiculously
 steep on one of my Rivendell bikes.

 But now I understand. I thought when I bought my new Surly Krampus
 mountain bike I'd be able to climb even steeper dirt roads than I now can
 climb on my Atlanti. I thought, I have an absurdly low gear on the Krampus
 (15.6 inches, something like that), I have all the traction in the world, I
 can climb anything.

 But no. I'm finding that I climb *worse* on the Krampus. It's
 frustrating. There are dirt sections that I have no trouble on with the
 Atlantis, with smooth tires, that I can't climb on the Krampus with the
 knobbies.

 What's going on here? Front-end geometry? Wheel weight? Bottom bracket
 height? I'm beginning to think I should have bought the Surly ECR (like
 several people recommended) instead of the Krampus. Or maybe I just need to
 learn how to climb on this new bike.

 On the other hand, when I bought the bike I also thought I'd be able to
 go down steep trails that I'm afraid to descend on the Atlantis, and that
 has proved to be true. My husband took one look at my new bike and said,
 Wow, you have better traction on that than you have on foot. When I apply
 the brakes on a steep downhill, the bike *slows down* instead of skidding.

 --
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.



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It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Ron Mc]

it may not be completely gone.  Trail is the next thing that comes to mind, 
since long-trail has such a strong on-center effect, and short-trail bikes 
hunt downhill in a hurry.  

On Friday, April 25, 2014 11:42:01 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 I have a 16.5 gear on my Atlantis, and when I'm touring I sometimes spend 
 hours climbing long climbs using it, so I've already abandoned whatever 
 gyroscopic effects are available with bigger gears.

 I've read that the gyroscope effect is not relevant for bikes-- didn't 
 someone build an anti-gyro bike, with a second wheel spinning in the 
 opposite direction, and discover that it was easy to steer?


 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Ron Mc bulld...@gmail.com 
 javascript:wrote:

 somewhere below 20 gears, you lose the gyro effect of the wheels, which 
 affects your ability to keep your balance on a bicycle.  


 On Friday, April 25, 2014 10:27:22 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

  
 I'm a big fan of low, low gears. I have them on both my Atlantises; my 
 Roadeo has pretty low gears too considering I never carry much on it. 
 People always say to me, I don't want lower gears because then I couldn't 
 balance. I never understood that. I don't have a bit of problem riding at 
 2.5 mph for long periods of time when I'm climbing something ridiculously 
 steep on one of my Rivendell bikes.

 But now I understand. I thought when I bought my new Surly Krampus 
 mountain bike I'd be able to climb even steeper dirt roads than I now can 
 climb on my Atlanti. I thought, I have an absurdly low gear on the Krampus 
 (15.6 inches, something like that), I have all the traction in the world, I 
 can climb anything.

 But no. I'm finding that I climb *worse* on the Krampus. It's 
 frustrating. There are dirt sections that I have no trouble on with the 
 Atlantis, with smooth tires, that I can't climb on the Krampus with the 
 knobbies.

 What's going on here? Front-end geometry? Wheel weight? Bottom bracket 
 height? I'm beginning to think I should have bought the Surly ECR (like 
 several people recommended) instead of the Krampus. Or maybe I just need to 
 learn how to climb on this new bike.

 On the other hand, when I bought the bike I also thought I'd be able to 
 go down steep trails that I'm afraid to descend on the Atlantis, and that 
 has proved to be true. My husband took one look at my new bike and said, 
 Wow, you have better traction on that than you have on foot. When I apply 
 the brakes on a steep downhill, the bike *slows down* instead of skidding.

 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 

  

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 .
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 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Ron Mc]

I'm still sure it's a combination of these two effects that you're 
experiencing.  

On Friday, April 25, 2014 11:48:09 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

 it may not be completely gone.  Trail is the next thing that comes to 
 mind, since long-trail has such a strong on-center effect, and short-trail 
 bikes hunt downhill in a hurry.  

 On Friday, April 25, 2014 11:42:01 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 I have a 16.5 gear on my Atlantis, and when I'm touring I sometimes 
 spend hours climbing long climbs using it, so I've already abandoned 
 whatever gyroscopic effects are available with bigger gears.

 I've read that the gyroscope effect is not relevant for bikes-- didn't 
 someone build an anti-gyro bike, with a second wheel spinning in the 
 opposite direction, and discover that it was easy to steer?




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Re: [RBW] Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Tim McNamara]

M guess is that you are more relaxed on the other bikes and that with the 
Krampus you are expending energy in ways not helpful to climbing.  Your 
description of deliberately leaning down and pulling back on the bars, for 
example.  Maybe this is interfering with your breathing.


On Apr 25, 2014, at 11:14 PM, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's a good question, and I'm not sure what the answer is. On my Atlantis, 
 I'm able to pedal pretty much until I just can't turn the wheels any more. 
 With the Krampus, I certainly notice that the front wheel has less weight on 
 it. On a steep hill on the Krampus, I have to work to make sure the front 
 wheel tracks; I deliberately lean down and pull back on the handlebars. I'm 
 not sure what I'm encountering when I stop in the middle of the steep section 
 and feel like I can't ride any more. Certainly I'm breathing pretty darn 
 hard. It feels like I just can't pedal any more, but it may be that it's just 
 the front wheel not tracking.
 
 
 On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 8:36 PM, Bertin753 bertin...@gmail.com wrote:
 *Very* interesting. What more particularly are you experiencing when you 
 cling so slowly with such low gears? Front end wobble? It would help to know 
 more precisely what exactly you experience.
 
 I've never been good at balancing at very low speeds; I really do fall over 
 if I go too slowly. But I'd like to know more exactly why you can't just gear 
 down and track more slowly with a lower gear.
 
 
 Patrick Moore
 iPhone
 
 On Apr 25, 2014, at 9:27 PM, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  
 I'm a big fan of low, low gears. I have them on both my Atlantises; my 
 Roadeo has pretty low gears too considering I never carry much on it. People 
 always say to me, I don't want lower gears because then I couldn't 
 balance. I never understood that. I don't have a bit of problem riding at 
 2.5 mph for long periods of time when I'm climbing something ridiculously 
 steep on one of my Rivendell bikes.
 
 But now I understand. I thought when I bought my new Surly Krampus mountain 
 bike I'd be able to climb even steeper dirt roads than I now can climb on my 
 Atlanti. I thought, I have an absurdly low gear on the Krampus (15.6 inches, 
 something like that), I have all the traction in the world, I can climb 
 anything.
 
 But no. I'm finding that I climb *worse* on the Krampus. It's frustrating. 
 There are dirt sections that I have no trouble on with the Atlantis, with 
 smooth tires, that I can't climb on the Krampus with the knobbies.
 
 What's going on here? Front-end geometry? Wheel weight? Bottom bracket 
 height? I'm beginning to think I should have bought the Surly ECR (like 
 several people recommended) instead of the Krampus. Or maybe I just need to 
 learn how to climb on this new bike.
 
 On the other hand, when I bought the bike I also thought I'd be able to go 
 down steep trails that I'm afraid to descend on the Atlantis, and that has 
 proved to be true. My husband took one look at my new bike and said, Wow, 
 you have better traction on that than you have on foot. When I apply the 
 brakes on a steep downhill, the bike *slows down* instead of skidding.
 
 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson
 
 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
 
  
 
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 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Ron Mc]

here we go, the third effect is mass distribution (front-rear) 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics  
Read a quick link on Lovely Bicycles that upright bikes are more difficult 
to balance a low speed than road bikes because of mass distribution 
effects.  

On Friday, April 25, 2014 11:51:55 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

 I'm still sure it's a combination of these two effects that you're 
 experiencing.  

 On Friday, April 25, 2014 11:48:09 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

 it may not be completely gone.  Trail is the next thing that comes to 
 mind, since long-trail has such a strong on-center effect, and short-trail 
 bikes hunt downhill in a hurry.  

 On Friday, April 25, 2014 11:42:01 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

 I have a 16.5 gear on my Atlantis, and when I'm touring I sometimes 
 spend hours climbing long climbs using it, so I've already abandoned 
 whatever gyroscopic effects are available with bigger gears.

 I've read that the gyroscope effect is not relevant for bikes-- didn't 
 someone build an anti-gyro bike, with a second wheel spinning in the 
 opposite direction, and discover that it was easy to steer?




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[RBW] Re: Geometry, climbing, what's going on?

[Mike Schiller]

One thing most people experience when going from 26 wheeled MTB's to 29 
MTB is that they can't climb as well. I've learned that you need to use an 
even lower gear to be able to turn the larger circumference wheels.  I have 
yet to try a 29+ bike but I can guess it will need an even lower gear.  On 
my 29er I run a 20-34 low combination. I'd probably go to a 20-36 on a 29+ 
bike. Maybe you can try a smaller chainring up front for your Rohloff   
equipped bike?
Of course it takes more power to push the wider and heavier tire, 
especially uphill on dirt.. I climb much faster on the same trails on my 
cross bike with 35mm tires. Downhill is another story.

One trick you may not know is to slide forward on your seat a bit on steep 
sections. That will take some weight off your rear wheel and allow you to 
climb easier.  The WTB saddles even have a little drop on the nose for that 
purpose. 

Another option is to try some 2.3 tires. They will be easier to climb with 
then your 3 Knards.  You'll lose some downhill traction but maybe gain a 
better overall ride. 

Good Luck

~mike
Carlsbad Ca.

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[RBW] Re: FS/T: Nitto Bullmoose Bar, 200mm, Unpainted

[Manuel Acosta]

hey thill these still for sale I have bosco bars if ur still looking for a 
trade.
manny

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