[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

Here is a well thought out response from the author of the Perfect Health 
Diet.
Paleofantasy and the State of Ancestral 
Science
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2013/03/paleofantasy-and-the-state-of-ancestral-science/

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:55:21 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Thought this might be of interest to some on this list. I'm not an 
> expert--or even an amateur--on the "paleo living" topic, but this article 
> makes some interesting points. 
>
> http://www.salon.com/2013/03/10/paleofantasy_stone_age_delusions/ 
>
> --Eric N 
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Brian Hanson]

This is officially the "Rivendell Engine" thread.  Totally relevant and
appropriate!  I will add another source to the debate, although others
(maybe Grant) brought this up before, but since he's local (Seattle), I
feel obligated to mention Stephan Guyenet.  He's also an official scientist
doing research on what makes folks obese, and has his own "food reward"
theory:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/

Brian
Seattle, WA



On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:45 PM, hsmitham  wrote:

> Well this is a really interesting topic, and for what it’s worth and due
> respect towards Peter M’s comment to end this topic and Jim who makes
> decisions on whether a topic continues, I think its fine to have off topic
> discussions (as long as they stay civil) though I think this talk of diet
> is very relevant to cycling what you put in fuels you. This is a group of
> Rivendell owners but first and foremost we are a group of cyclists who
> appreciate sensible logic applied to the design of comfortable pedal
> powered transportation it just goes to reason that this also applies to
> other aspects revolving around our core fascination.
>
> Next, I am impressed by the vast knowledge of all the posters on this
> subject and am humbled as I in no way have such breath of knowledge like
> grant on the evolution of Homo Sapiens (quite an interesting subject
> though) that said I’d like to throw my two cents in. 
>
>  IMHO as cyclists we tend to be more acute to what we ingest, I for
> instance as I’ve aged have developed a sense of what feels good to eat and
> what doesn’t; as Peter M. states when I eat sugar and breads I feel a
> general un-wellness, oh darn all this thinking of diet has made me hungry
> gonna go make some eggs with beef sausage kale and other veggies…
>
> Okay full and feeling good. Okay where was I …right when I eat a small
> (emphasis here) portion of meat, sweet potatoes and greens I feel great!
> Jim Thill made a point “At the very least, it seems obvious that there
> are different types of people. Some eat a bread/pasta-based diet and stay
> skinny and live a long healthy life. I'm not one of those” continuing
> with this thinking some people can live over a hundred years like these
> Georgians (I could be wrong about the exact geographic location certainly I
> remember one of the regions of the old Soviet Union) they smoke and drink
> Vodka religiously bath in ice cold water and have a really long life span
> or how about the Okinawan’s
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet
>
> These people also work like crazy well into their 90’s and beyond, the
> concept of retirement I don’t think exists for themJ 
>
> I have a chronic Kidney disease called IGA Nephropathy (diagnosed at 38)
> and am supposed to limit my animal protein to no more than 7oz per day. I
> submit this as an example of why diet is individual based and leads me to
> another point about human evolution we live longer now because of better
> hygiene and modern western medicines. The progress in medicine has allowed
> us to beat many of the odds our ancestors just couldn’t, yes many of the
> diseases we suffer from as a modern society such as diabetes and obesity(
> many ramifications statistically) are caused by a diet rich in processed
> foods and sugar and could be eliminated by a proper diet. Yet as we have
> lived longer we are seeing diseases populate as our bodies can no longer
> make the necessary repairs. (This link is interesting)
>
> http://www.ted.com/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging.html
>
> Again modern medicine steps in to manage these prolonging our lives. Our
> Bronze Age ancestor’s average life expectancy was 26 and the world life
> expectancy at the early 20th century was 31. I believe it was 48 in the
> United States at the turn of the century. The point is what our ancestor’s
> ate was what was available and they died comparatively young and there is
> no way to determine had our most recent ancestor’s eaten a better diet they
> would have lived longer, perhaps just felt a heck of a lot better while
> they lived.
>
> I never meant to go on but this topic has captivated my thoughts and
> caused me to look closely at my own diet ( I love a good Tuscan bread
> toasted with butter yummy in moderation ) Perhaps riding my bicycle allows
> me to indulge. Food for thought (pun intended).
>
> ** **
>
> Hugh
>
> Sunland, CA 
>
> (High of 91 degrees) Global warming? Sorry that’s for another topicJ
>
>
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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[hsmitham]

Well this is a really interesting topic, and for what it’s worth and due 
respect towards Peter M’s comment to end this topic and Jim who makes 
decisions on whether a topic continues, I think its fine to have off topic 
discussions (as long as they stay civil) though I think this talk of diet 
is very relevant to cycling what you put in fuels you. This is a group of 
Rivendell owners but first and foremost we are a group of cyclists who 
appreciate sensible logic applied to the design of comfortable pedal 
powered transportation it just goes to reason that this also applies to 
other aspects revolving around our core fascination.

Next, I am impressed by the vast knowledge of all the posters on this 
subject and am humbled as I in no way have such breath of knowledge like 
grant on the evolution of Homo Sapiens (quite an interesting subject 
though) that said I’d like to throw my two cents in. 

 IMHO as cyclists we tend to be more acute to what we ingest, I for 
instance as I’ve aged have developed a sense of what feels good to eat and 
what doesn’t; as Peter M. states when I eat sugar and breads I feel a 
general un-wellness, oh darn all this thinking of diet has made me hungry 
gonna go make some eggs with beef sausage kale and other veggies…

Okay full and feeling good. Okay where was I …right when I eat a small 
(emphasis here) portion of meat, sweet potatoes and greens I feel great! 
Jim Thill made a point “At the very least, it seems obvious that there are 
different types of people. Some eat a bread/pasta-based diet and stay 
skinny and live a long healthy life. I'm not one of those” continuing with 
this thinking some people can live over a hundred years like these 
Georgians (I could be wrong about the exact geographic location certainly I 
remember one of the regions of the old Soviet Union) they smoke and drink 
Vodka religiously bath in ice cold water and have a really long life span 
or how about the Okinawan’s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet

These people also work like crazy well into their 90’s and beyond, the 
concept of retirement I don’t think exists for themJ 

I have a chronic Kidney disease called IGA Nephropathy (diagnosed at 38) 
and am supposed to limit my animal protein to no more than 7oz per day. I 
submit this as an example of why diet is individual based and leads me to 
another point about human evolution we live longer now because of better 
hygiene and modern western medicines. The progress in medicine has allowed 
us to beat many of the odds our ancestors just couldn’t, yes many of the 
diseases we suffer from as a modern society such as diabetes and obesity( 
many ramifications statistically) are caused by a diet rich in processed 
foods and sugar and could be eliminated by a proper diet. Yet as we have 
lived longer we are seeing diseases populate as our bodies can no longer 
make the necessary repairs. (This link is interesting)

http://www.ted.com/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging.html

Again modern medicine steps in to manage these prolonging our lives. Our 
Bronze Age ancestor’s average life expectancy was 26 and the world life 
expectancy at the early 20th century was 31. I believe it was 48 in the 
United States at the turn of the century. The point is what our ancestor’s 
ate was what was available and they died comparatively young and there is 
no way to determine had our most recent ancestor’s eaten a better diet they 
would have lived longer, perhaps just felt a heck of a lot better while 
they lived.

I never meant to go on but this topic has captivated my thoughts and caused 
me to look closely at my own diet ( I love a good Tuscan bread toasted with 
butter yummy in moderation ) Perhaps riding my bicycle allows me to 
indulge. Food for thought (pun intended).

 

Hugh

Sunland, CA 

(High of 91 degrees) Global warming? Sorry that’s for another topicJ


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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

OK. I'll bow to that.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Thursday, March 14, 2013 3:25:44 PM UTC-6, Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> That's still not quite correct, Patrick.  Science by definition is not 
> anecdotal:  it is based on testable hypotheses and repeatable results 
> resulting in data which can be analyzed and independently confirmed or 
> disproved.  Double blind studies are appropriate and necessary in some 
> aspects of science but not in others- indeed, in most scientific 
> experiments the double blind model is not necessary or sometimes not 
> possible, such as the search for gravitational lensing to confirm part of 
> Einstein's theory of general relativity or chemical analysis of proteins. 
>  The double blind model, on the other hand, is very useful for comparing 
> the efficacy of a medication to placebo by reducing the effects of bias and 
> expectation on outcomes.  Gallileo did not need to use the double blind 
> model to measure the acceleration of objects in Earth's gravitational 
> field. 
>
> Once one gets to repeatable observation and measurement, one has left the 
> realm of anecdote.  Anecdotes may be very accurate but it is the scientific 
> method that ultimately provides the confirmation.   
>
> Cheers! 
>
> Tim 
>
>
>
> On Mar 14, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote: 
> > 
> > OK. I overstated. Most science done today is anecdotal. It does not meet 
> the standard of double-blind, peer reviewed data. So I treat it as 
> anecdotal. 
> > 
> > With abandon, 
> > Patrick 
> > 
> > On Thursday, March 14, 2013 2:29:45 PM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote: 
> > On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 06:36 -0700, Deacon Patrick wrote: 
> > > What science isn't based on anecdotal evidence? I did x, observed y, 
> > > measured z... 
> > 
> > Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence  with 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence 
> > 
> > I see little support for your assertion. 
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Garth]

  Chesterton LIVED a rich and FULL life    YES !! What's not to 
love about that ?   .so much for "longevity" Life is to be lived 
NOW now now now !   ahahahaahahah 

with lots of laughs and good spirits :) 



On Thursday, March 14, 2013 11:17:33 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I prefer my spirits neat! (Except when mixed.) And I applaud your good 
> humor!
>
> Patrick Moore, whose role model for weight and longevity is GK Chesterton:
>
> "Chesterton was a large man, standing 6 feet 4 inches (1.93 m) and 
> weighing around 21 stone (130 kg; 290 lb). ... During World War I a lady in 
> London asked why he was not "out at the Front"; he replied, "If you go 
> round to the side, you will see that I am."On another occasion he remarked 
> to his friend George Bernard Shaw: "To look at you, anyone would think a 
> famine had struck England". Shaw retorted, "To look at you, anyone would 
> think you have caused it". P. G. Wodehouse once described a very loud crash 
> as "a sound like Chesterton falling onto a sheet of tin"."
>
> "Chesterton wrote around 80 books, several hundred poems, some 200 short 
> stories, 4000 essays, and several plays. He was a literary and social 
> critic, historian, playwright, novelist, Catholic theologian and apologist, 
> debater, and mystery writer. He was a columnist for the Daily News, the 
> Illustrated London News, and his own paper, G. K.'s Weekly; he also wrote 
> articles for the Encyclopædia Britannica, including the entry on Charles 
> Dickens and part of the entry on Humour in the 14th edition (1929)."
>
> [He was contemptuous of socialism and communism and truly hated 
> capitalism, even in the juvenile form it took in his life.]
>
> He died at 62 but I'd rather die young having lived much than die old 
> having fretted my life away.
>
> Patrick Moore, who has hardly the wit nor the girth of Chesterton and who 
> is dragging this thread even further into the OT wilds (and who will now 
> cease to comment on the subject). 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Tim McNamara]

That's still not quite correct, Patrick.  Science by definition is not 
anecdotal:  it is based on testable hypotheses and repeatable results resulting 
in data which can be analyzed and independently confirmed or disproved.  Double 
blind studies are appropriate and necessary in some aspects of science but not 
in others- indeed, in most scientific experiments the double blind model is not 
necessary or sometimes not possible, such as the search for gravitational 
lensing to confirm part of Einstein's theory of general relativity or chemical 
analysis of proteins.  The double blind model, on the other hand, is very 
useful for comparing the efficacy of a medication to placebo by reducing the 
effects of bias and expectation on outcomes.  Gallileo did not need to use the 
double blind model to measure the acceleration of objects in Earth's 
gravitational field.

Once one gets to repeatable observation and measurement, one has left the realm 
of anecdote.  Anecdotes may be very accurate but it is the scientific method 
that ultimately provides the confirmation.  

Cheers!

Tim



On Mar 14, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:
> 
> OK. I overstated. Most science done today is anecdotal. It does not meet the 
> standard of double-blind, peer reviewed data. So I treat it as anecdotal.
> 
> With abandon,
> Patrick
> 
> On Thursday, March 14, 2013 2:29:45 PM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:
> On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 06:36 -0700, Deacon Patrick wrote: 
> > What science isn't based on anecdotal evidence? I did x, observed y, 
> > measured z... 
> 
> Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence  with 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence 
> 
> I see little support for your assertion. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 13:45 -0700, Deacon Patrick wrote:
> OK. I overstated. Most science done today is anecdotal. It does not
> meet the standard of double-blind, peer reviewed data. So I treat it
> as anecdotal.

"Most" is such a big word... and the burden of proof is on you.

> 
> With abandon,

Make that "With RECKLESS abandon..."

8=)





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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

OK. I overstated. Most science done today is anecdotal. It does not meet 
the standard of double-blind, peer reviewed data. So I treat it as 
anecdotal.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Thursday, March 14, 2013 2:29:45 PM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 06:36 -0700, Deacon Patrick wrote: 
> > What science isn't based on anecdotal evidence? I did x, observed y, 
> > measured z... 
>
> Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence  with 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence 
>
> I see little support for your assertion. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 06:36 -0700, Deacon Patrick wrote:
> What science isn't based on anecdotal evidence? I did x, observed y,
> measured z...

Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence  with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence

I see little support for your assertion.


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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[David Yu Greenblatt]

At most medical schools, only an hour or so the four-year-long curriculum
is devoted to diet and nutrition. So your primary doc may or may not know
much about the subject.

It must be tough to try to do scientific research on the health effects of
diet. I haven't read any of the literature. I can imagine designing
experiments with short-term surrogate outcomes like weight loss, changes in
blood lipid profiles, and so on. But what are the truly relevant outcomes
related to diet and health? Longevity? Quality-adjusted life years? Overall
long-term happiness? It would be impossible to run a randomized controlled
trial (e.g., paleo vs. conventional USA diet) with those outcomes. And I
would think that observational studies would have problems related to
potential confounders, etc. This may be an area where anecdotal evidence
has value, and self-experimentation is a reasonable approach.

- David G (MD) in SF



On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Peter Morgano wrote:

> Even Grant, in his book makes a disclaimer that he is not a Dr. and you
> should ask yours before changing drastically changing your diet. Maybe
> extreme was too harsh of a word. I just ate Froot Loops with Almond Milk
> and I feel great!
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <
> thill@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My "natural" diet is a mix of quality meat, fruit, veggies, nuts, and
>> eggs, which is a simple version of what some call "paleo". Do these basic
>> ingredients seem like a fad or an extreme diet? Does a diet consisting of
>> these basic ingredients even seem worthy of a trademarked name like "The
>> Paleo Diet"? When I eat these things, I have lots of energy and I feel good
>> and my weight stays in control. When I deviate from this, and eat breads
>> and sweets, I quickly start to feel bad, look puffy, and gain weight. I
>> don't need a doctor's note to tell me that eating natural food and avoiding
>> processed food is a good idea.
>>
>> The notion that eating these basic, natural foods is "extreme", and that
>> somehow eating a bowl of manufactured cereal with a side of pastry every
>> morning is "natural" is backwards.
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[RJM]

Seems like a good diet to me. I am having issues cutting the processed 
"white" carbs; they are just so pervasive in society. It's a shame. I am 
bound and determined to do it this year though.
 
 
On Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:00:57 AM UTC-5, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery 
wrote:

> My "natural" diet is a mix of quality meat, fruit, veggies, nuts, and 
> eggs, which is a simple version of what some call "paleo". Do these basic 
> ingredients seem like a fad or an extreme diet? Does a diet consisting of 
> these basic ingredients even seem worthy of a trademarked name like "The 
> Paleo Diet"? When I eat these things, I have lots of energy and I feel good 
> and my weight stays in control. When I deviate from this, and eat breads 
> and sweets, I quickly start to feel bad, look puffy, and gain weight. I 
> don't need a doctor's note to tell me that eating natural food and avoiding 
> processed food is a good idea. 
>
> The notion that eating these basic, natural foods is "extreme", and that 
> somehow eating a bowl of manufactured cereal with a side of pastry every 
> morning is "natural" is backwards.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[PATRICK MOORE]

I prefer my spirits neat! (Except when mixed.) And I applaud your good
humor!

Patrick Moore, whose role model for weight and longevity is GK Chesterton:

"Chesterton was a large man, standing 6 feet 4 inches (1.93 m) and weighing
around 21 stone (130 kg; 290 lb). ... During World War I a lady in London
asked why he was not "out at the Front"; he replied, "If you go round to
the side, you will see that I am."On another occasion he remarked to his
friend George Bernard Shaw: "To look at you, anyone would think a famine
had struck England". Shaw retorted, "To look at you, anyone would think you
have caused it". P. G. Wodehouse once described a very loud crash as "a
sound like Chesterton falling onto a sheet of tin"."

"Chesterton wrote around 80 books, several hundred poems, some 200 short
stories, 4000 essays, and several plays. He was a literary and social
critic, historian, playwright, novelist, Catholic theologian and apologist,
debater, and mystery writer. He was a columnist for the Daily News, the
Illustrated London News, and his own paper, G. K.'s Weekly; he also wrote
articles for the Encyclopædia Britannica, including the entry on Charles
Dickens and part of the entry on Humour in the 14th edition (1929)."

[He was contemptuous of socialism and communism and truly hated capitalism,
even in the juvenile form it took in his life.]

He died at 62 but I'd rather die young having lived much than die old
having fretted my life away.

Patrick Moore, who has hardly the wit nor the girth of Chesterton and who
is dragging this thread even further into the OT wilds (and who will now
cease to comment on the subject).

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:41 AM, Garth  wrote:
>
> Not really Patrick, but I can see how it may appear !  ahahahah
>
> The basic premise is :   Am I a product of "conditions'  or are
> "conditions" are product of I ?
>
> For each to define for themselves 
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 5:17:13 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> This is getting very weird.
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

Unless and until you repeat it yourself, it's all anecdote. You are reading 
the study, which is anecdote. A very specific type of anecdote, but 
anecdote nonetheless.

I have many foibles, but confusing science with religion is not one of 
them. Science is one tool for helping us understanding God's natural law, 
and thus serves faith.

With abandon,
Patrick 

On Thursday, March 14, 2013 7:57:42 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:
>
> Actual science, its based on lab tests and studies and years of research, 
> not just stories. Maybe you are confusing science with religion, where you 
> can just site a big book of maybe real, maybe pretend stories to fit your 
> world view. 
>
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Deacon Patrick 
> > wrote:
>
>> What science isn't based on anecdotal evidence? I did x, observed y, 
>> measured z...
>>
>> The Perfect Health Diet is based on research on several hundred 
>> scientific studies.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, March 14, 2013 7:06:37 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:
>>
>>> Again this is all anecdotal evidence, as was pointed out earlier. My 
>>> grandfather drank and smoked every day of his life. He used to have two 
>>> Martinis for breakfast, calling them his "eye openers." As an Italian he 
>>> ate alot of carbs along with alot of meat and cheese. He lived until he was 
>>> 87 but was always active and hardly ever sick. Would I say he had the ideal 
>>> diet and regimen all should follow since he lived so long and was rarely 
>>> sick or inactive? No, of course not. In my line of work I know alot of 
>>> Vegans and Vegetarians who tell me how great they feel and how long their 
>>> family members have lived by not eating any meat, cheese, fish, etc. But 
>>> again its just all anecdotal. People put food just below religion in terms 
>>> of how strongly they hold their convictions it seems. It feels like there 
>>> are true believers in both camps that will espouse their merits no matter 
>>> what.  Just remember, I dont think at least any of us are doctors so before 
>>> you start some fad diet please see a real actual Dr. to make sure you dont 
>>> get sick. I can still remember the Juice Diet fads and how sick some people 
>>> got, these extreme diets are not for everyone. 
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:41 AM, Garth  wrote:
>>>
  
 Not really Patrick, but I can see how it may appear !  ahahahah

 The basic premise is :   Am I a product of "conditions'  or are 
 "conditions" are product of I ? 

 For each to define for themselves  



 On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 5:17:13 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> This is getting very weird. 
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Eric Norris]

Froot Loops? Now there's a diet I can live with!

–Eric N
Sent from my iPhone 5

On Mar 14, 2013, at 7:08 AM, Peter Morgano  wrote:

> Even Grant, in his book makes a disclaimer that he is not a Dr. and you 
> should ask yours before changing drastically changing your diet. Maybe 
> extreme was too harsh of a word. I just ate Froot Loops with Almond Milk and 
> I feel great!
> 
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery 
>  wrote:
>> My "natural" diet is a mix of quality meat, fruit, veggies, nuts, and eggs, 
>> which is a simple version of what some call "paleo". Do these basic 
>> ingredients seem like a fad or an extreme diet? Does a diet consisting of 
>> these basic ingredients even seem worthy of a trademarked name like "The 
>> Paleo Diet"? When I eat these things, I have lots of energy and I feel good 
>> and my weight stays in control. When I deviate from this, and eat breads and 
>> sweets, I quickly start to feel bad, look puffy, and gain weight. I don't 
>> need a doctor's note to tell me that eating natural food and avoiding 
>> processed food is a good idea.
>> 
>> The notion that eating these basic, natural foods is "extreme", and that 
>> somehow eating a bowl of manufactured cereal with a side of pastry every 
>> morning is "natural" is backwards.
>> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

At the very least, it seems obvious that there are different types of people. 
Some eat a bread/pasta-based diet and stay skinny and live a long healthy life. 
I'm not one of those.

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Peter Morgano]

Even Grant, in his book makes a disclaimer that he is not a Dr. and you
should ask yours before changing drastically changing your diet. Maybe
extreme was too harsh of a word. I just ate Froot Loops with Almond Milk
and I feel great!

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <
thill@gmail.com> wrote:

> My "natural" diet is a mix of quality meat, fruit, veggies, nuts, and
> eggs, which is a simple version of what some call "paleo". Do these basic
> ingredients seem like a fad or an extreme diet? Does a diet consisting of
> these basic ingredients even seem worthy of a trademarked name like "The
> Paleo Diet"? When I eat these things, I have lots of energy and I feel good
> and my weight stays in control. When I deviate from this, and eat breads
> and sweets, I quickly start to feel bad, look puffy, and gain weight. I
> don't need a doctor's note to tell me that eating natural food and avoiding
> processed food is a good idea.
>
> The notion that eating these basic, natural foods is "extreme", and that
> somehow eating a bowl of manufactured cereal with a side of pastry every
> morning is "natural" is backwards.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

My "natural" diet is a mix of quality meat, fruit, veggies, nuts, and eggs, 
which is a simple version of what some call "paleo". Do these basic ingredients 
seem like a fad or an extreme diet? Does a diet consisting of these basic 
ingredients even seem worthy of a trademarked name like "The Paleo Diet"? When 
I eat these things, I have lots of energy and I feel good and my weight stays 
in control. When I deviate from this, and eat breads and sweets, I quickly 
start to feel bad, look puffy, and gain weight. I don't need a doctor's note to 
tell me that eating natural food and avoiding processed food is a good idea.

The notion that eating these basic, natural foods is "extreme", and that 
somehow eating a bowl of manufactured cereal with a side of pastry every 
morning is "natural" is backwards.

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

What science isn't based on anecdotal evidence? I did x, observed y, 
measured z...

The Perfect Health Diet is based on research on several hundred scientific 
studies.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Thursday, March 14, 2013 7:06:37 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:
>
> Again this is all anecdotal evidence, as was pointed out earlier. My 
> grandfather drank and smoked every day of his life. He used to have two 
> Martinis for breakfast, calling them his "eye openers." As an Italian he 
> ate alot of carbs along with alot of meat and cheese. He lived until he was 
> 87 but was always active and hardly ever sick. Would I say he had the ideal 
> diet and regimen all should follow since he lived so long and was rarely 
> sick or inactive? No, of course not. In my line of work I know alot of 
> Vegans and Vegetarians who tell me how great they feel and how long their 
> family members have lived by not eating any meat, cheese, fish, etc. But 
> again its just all anecdotal. People put food just below religion in terms 
> of how strongly they hold their convictions it seems. It feels like there 
> are true believers in both camps that will espouse their merits no matter 
> what.  Just remember, I dont think at least any of us are doctors so before 
> you start some fad diet please see a real actual Dr. to make sure you dont 
> get sick. I can still remember the Juice Diet fads and how sick some people 
> got, these extreme diets are not for everyone. 
>
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:41 AM, Garth >wrote:
>
>>
>> Not really Patrick, but I can see how it may appear !  ahahahah
>>
>> The basic premise is :   Am I a product of "conditions'  or are 
>> "conditions" are product of I ? 
>>
>> For each to define for themselves  
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 5:17:13 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> This is getting very weird. 
>>>
>>>
>>>  -- 
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>>  
>>  
>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Peter Morgano]

Again this is all anecdotal evidence, as was pointed out earlier. My
grandfather drank and smoked every day of his life. He used to have two
Martinis for breakfast, calling them his "eye openers." As an Italian he
ate alot of carbs along with alot of meat and cheese. He lived until he was
87 but was always active and hardly ever sick. Would I say he had the ideal
diet and regimen all should follow since he lived so long and was rarely
sick or inactive? No, of course not. In my line of work I know alot of
Vegans and Vegetarians who tell me how great they feel and how long their
family members have lived by not eating any meat, cheese, fish, etc. But
again its just all anecdotal. People put food just below religion in terms
of how strongly they hold their convictions it seems. It feels like there
are true believers in both camps that will espouse their merits no matter
what.  Just remember, I dont think at least any of us are doctors so before
you start some fad diet please see a real actual Dr. to make sure you dont
get sick. I can still remember the Juice Diet fads and how sick some people
got, these extreme diets are not for everyone.

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 7:41 AM, Garth  wrote:

>
> Not really Patrick, but I can see how it may appear !  ahahahah
>
> The basic premise is :   Am I a product of "conditions'  or are
> "conditions" are product of I ?
>
> For each to define for themselves 
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 5:17:13 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> This is getting very weird.
>>
>>
>>  --
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Garth]

Not really Patrick, but I can see how it may appear !  ahahahah

The basic premise is :   Am I a product of "conditions'  or are 
"conditions" are product of I ? 

For each to define for themselves  



On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 5:17:13 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> This is getting very weird. 
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[charlie]

Precisely why we Paleo's eat grass fed and wild game and organically grown 
leafy greens or from our own gardens when possible.many locals in my 
area raise livestock this way. We just purchased 90 pounds for $4.00 lb. of 
every cut imaginable but not much ground. Last I checked, 
Australian aboriginals and Inuit's in Alaska a generation or two past 
didn't evolve in grasslands per say. Additionally there are other cultures 
in South America who have lived off the rain forest vegetation, water 
creatures and land mammals.  I'm not one to throw out the concept behind 
eating low carb/grain free/minimal to no processed food for health simply 
because much of our food supply is tainted. The main point I think Grant is 
making is that modern industrialized people are not healthy and our disease 
rates prove it. Further, outward appearances don't always tell the whole 
story. If you don't believe that look at how many supposedly healthy, 
skinny people have heart attacks. My own Grandfather lived to 100 but 
always had a pot belly. He ate seafood that he often caught and vegetables 
and was moderate in the consumption of deserts and alcohol and did not 
smoke. He kept busy with work until 88 walked and worked outside for 
exercise. He wasn't a Paleo eater but he ate a natural low carb diet. My 
father on the other hand did the opposite for most of his life and  became 
a diabetic at about 55 and only lived to 76


On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:36:19 AM UTC-7, Matthew J wrote:
>
> Frankly, except when I am stuck sitting next to a wide body on the subway, 
> I  tend not to be all that concerned about what others eat.
>  
> That said, the Paleo diet advocates insistence early humans did not eat 
> grain is rot.  Humans evolved in grass lands.  As telhe linked article 
> points out, there is good archaelogical evidence of grain processing going 
> about as far back into human history.  
>  
> Yes, modern society modifies grains and refines the heck out of them.  But 
> the dead animals paleos eat have also been genetically modified, are pumped 
> with anti-biotics, absorb pollutants from the air and water and eat 
> modified and processed grain.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Eric Norris]

If you want to hear an exchange between the guests about whether the Wheat 
Belly effect is real, listen to the podcast at 9:20 in ...

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
www.campyonly.com
campyonlyguy.blogspot.com

On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:08 PM, Eric Norris  wrote:

> CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp) recently hosted a very interesting 
> discussion with the author of "Wheat Belly". Podcast is available for 
> download here:
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2013/02/07/are-wheat-free-diets-a-fad/
> 
> Also on the show was Timothy Caulfield, Canada Research Chair in Health Law 
> and Policy at the University of Alberta.
> 
> With all due respect to PeterG, Mr. Caulfield points out many times in the 
> interview the danger of relying on anecdotal information and individual 
> experiences. PeterG's recovery is remarkable, but it's not necessary proof 
> that the "Wheat Belly" diet works. Mr. Davis, author of Wheat Belly, provides 
> a number of individual accounts like PeterG's during the interview; Mr. 
> Caulfield just as often points out that there are no clinical studies to 
> prove what Mr. Davis says.
> 
> Listen to the podcast. It's excellent.
> 
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com
> www.campyonly.com
> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
> 
> On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:32 AM, PeterG  wrote:
> 
>> I don't know a lot about all the different views of this subject, but
>> I do know my own results..I have MS and neuropathy in hands, feet. I
>> came across a book called "wheatbelly" back in December of 2012...The
>> author (a cardio doc) mentioned that thousands of his patients have
>> improved their lives cutting out wheat, grains and sugars. He
>> mentioned how lots of evidence is starting to look like many of the
>> auto immune diseases are somehow related to gluten and the new age
>> wheat we have formulated.(these aren't the wheats of our
>> grandfathers). Just to see what would happen, i started Dec 10 with
>> cutting out ALL grains, sugars and processed foods. results after 3
>> months: My left hand is actually working most of the time now...my
>> "brain fog" is gone...Migraines are history...pain is half of what it
>> was...cholesterol numbers have been cut by 67%...I am no longer on
>> high blood pressure medsand the list goes on and on and
>> onPersonally, I think the wheat that we created 30 years ago is
>> killing us slowly, but each of us has to decide what works and what
>> doesn't...I want to thank Grant for getting me started on this. I was
>> talking with him last year and it was he who first talked to me about
>> diet and how important it was for sustaining a healthy life (he even
>> had me watch a youtube video)...I encourage everyone to try for
>> yourself and see what happens...what have you got to lose? Sorry for
>> preaching...
>> 
>> On Mar 12, 10:30 pm, grant  wrote:
>>> Whatever works for (anybody) is the right thing. A good way to test is to
>>> have a complete blood and lipid test (testing for Type A and B LDL, or else
>>> it does't tell you anything), and include A1C in there, too. Do that now
>>> (for instance) to see how your diet is working, and then go super low carb
>>> (or minimally, quit grains and beer for three months) and test again.
>>> Anybody can stand on a scale and look in a mirror and get a *feel* for how
>>> things are going, but the blood tests tell things the scale and mirror
>>> don't.
>>> For those unfamiliar, this is about a super low-carb diet that eliminates
>>> all grains and most other high-carb foods. It is based on the notion that
>>> the species Homo has been around for 2.5 million years, but has had access
>>> to vast amounts of carbohydrates only for the last 12,000 years at best
>>> (middle east, asia), and some cultures---notably Native Americans and
>>> Africans and Af-Americans, and notably not middle-easterners and asians—
>>> have had less than two hundred years to adapt to high-carb diets. People
>>> with long histories of carbs have in their saliva more amylase, an enzyme
>>> that pre-digests starch before you swallow it. But the famous skinny Asians
>>> that people tend to use to discredit low-carb diets--are eastern asians who
>>> eat like birds and work like bees---a fistful of white rice, some veges and
>>> fish---and that when they eat typical western diets, they plump up like the
>>> rest of us.
>>> And---this is longer than I'd planned to speak here—the science behind the
>>> benefits of low-carb comes down to one word: Insulin. Insulin is a
>>> metabolic hormone that determines whether you store fat or burn it. I am
>>> not a scientist, but even the most conservative scientists acknowledge that
>>> in the absence of insulin we burn body fat and fuel our cells with ketones
>>> (a byproduct of fat breakdown); and in the presence of insulin we create
>>> fat and store fat and burn glucose for energy. So if you carb up for a long
>>> ride, you will burn the calories that you ate, but not your body fat.
>>> (Insulin spikes with carbohydr

[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

At the other end of the spectrum there's always going food free...
http://m.vice.com/read/rob-rhinehart-no-longer-requires-food?utm_source=vicefbus

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:55:21 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Thought this might be of interest to some on this list. I'm not an 
> expert--or even an amateur--on the "paleo living" topic, but this article 
> makes some interesting points. 
>
> http://www.salon.com/2013/03/10/paleofantasy_stone_age_delusions/ 
>
> --Eric N 
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[grant]

> Very early ancestors survived on tropical plants, new study suggests 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121214200916.htm 
>
> Perry "I ain't buyi the paleo fantasy bro science" Bessas


It's all fine, but that study talks about apes (3 to 3.5 million years 
ago). Homo habilus, the first Homo, evolved around 2.5 MYA/

Apes vs Homo

Gut length: Apes have about 3x the yardage, the better to digest raw 
plantfood with. They have upside-down cone-shaped rib cages and long 
torsoes, to better hold the long yards of guts.

Jaw muscles: Apes have strong ones that attache atop the skull. The raw 
food requires massive muscles. The act of chewing compresses the skull, no 
big deal because the brain is small. Human jawmucles attach around the 
temple and are thin...and the thin-ness and lower attachment point came 
about (so some believe) as a result of eating progressively more chewable 
and digestible food.

Short story, as short as I can make it, and even this is too long 
considering I agree with the "change this topic" advice...but I will take 
this liberty because I was named in an original post. Skip over if you 
don't care to listen to a guy with a 2-year junior college degree talk, 
shall we say, above his ken.

It took about 500,000 years, from 3 million years ago to 2.5 MYA, to evolve 
the first human (Homo habilus), and it likely resulted from eating meat, 
since Hh was out of the jungle and living in grasslands, eating leftover 
carrion at first. Raw meat is like gum, unless it's kobe beef or sashimi, 
so he pounded and sliced it and tenderized it this way.

 This let him eat more of it AND made it more digestible. Over time, the 
dietary change shrunk the gut, weakend the jaw muscles, and let the skull 
and brain expand. The bigger brain led to other things, but among them, 
cooking meat. Cooked meat is a cinch to digest and eat more of, and soon 
(in evolutionary terms), we got Homo ergaster. 

Homo ergaster learned to cook and hunt--upping his meat consumption even 
more---and morphed into Homo heidelbergensis (this is all from memory, I'm 
not googling this as I go, so I may be off some).

 Homo heidelwith his bigger brain, learned ways of gathering even more 
meat--hunting with others, and of course this was helped by still more 
shrunken jaw muscles, bigger skull, and brain expension to go with the 
bigger skull. He also learned to bake and in general was largely a meat 
eater. Now and then a root or something else, but the point is, all of 
these evolutionary changes that cause Homo sapiens to evolve just 200,000 
years ago are -- *related* to meat consumption, in some form or other. 

There were other things, but t is hard to make the case that the physical 
changes in guts and skulls, jaw muscles and brains---would have happened 
without meat. In any animal, the head geometry (including teeth) say 
something about the diet. The metabolic costs of pushing and digesting 
roughage through miles of guts to ultimate extract a few calories from them 
precludes growing a bigger brain, which, cubic centimeter by cubic 
centimeter, is the most metabolically expensive organ in the body. 
Something had to give, and it was the gut.

This story is separate from any ethical issues that involve vegetariansim 
or greenhouse gases. Those are important, but purely in terms of what 
transpired along the evolutionary path from apes to Homo sapiens...meat had 
something to do with it. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Eric Norris]

CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp) recently hosted a very interesting discussion 
with the author of "Wheat Belly". Podcast is available for download here:

http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2013/02/07/are-wheat-free-diets-a-fad/

Also on the show was Timothy Caulfield, Canada Research Chair in Health Law and 
Policy at the University of Alberta.

With all due respect to PeterG, Mr. Caulfield points out many times in the 
interview the danger of relying on anecdotal information and individual 
experiences. PeterG's recovery is remarkable, but it's not necessary proof that 
the "Wheat Belly" diet works. Mr. Davis, author of Wheat Belly, provides a 
number of individual accounts like PeterG's during the interview; Mr. Caulfield 
just as often points out that there are no clinical studies to prove what Mr. 
Davis says.

Listen to the podcast. It's excellent.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
www.campyonly.com
campyonlyguy.blogspot.com

On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:32 AM, PeterG  wrote:

> I don't know a lot about all the different views of this subject, but
> I do know my own results..I have MS and neuropathy in hands, feet. I
> came across a book called "wheatbelly" back in December of 2012...The
> author (a cardio doc) mentioned that thousands of his patients have
> improved their lives cutting out wheat, grains and sugars. He
> mentioned how lots of evidence is starting to look like many of the
> auto immune diseases are somehow related to gluten and the new age
> wheat we have formulated.(these aren't the wheats of our
> grandfathers). Just to see what would happen, i started Dec 10 with
> cutting out ALL grains, sugars and processed foods. results after 3
> months: My left hand is actually working most of the time now...my
> "brain fog" is gone...Migraines are history...pain is half of what it
> was...cholesterol numbers have been cut by 67%...I am no longer on
> high blood pressure medsand the list goes on and on and
> onPersonally, I think the wheat that we created 30 years ago is
> killing us slowly, but each of us has to decide what works and what
> doesn't...I want to thank Grant for getting me started on this. I was
> talking with him last year and it was he who first talked to me about
> diet and how important it was for sustaining a healthy life (he even
> had me watch a youtube video)...I encourage everyone to try for
> yourself and see what happens...what have you got to lose? Sorry for
> preaching...
> 
> On Mar 12, 10:30 pm, grant  wrote:
>> Whatever works for (anybody) is the right thing. A good way to test is to
>> have a complete blood and lipid test (testing for Type A and B LDL, or else
>> it does't tell you anything), and include A1C in there, too. Do that now
>> (for instance) to see how your diet is working, and then go super low carb
>> (or minimally, quit grains and beer for three months) and test again.
>> Anybody can stand on a scale and look in a mirror and get a *feel* for how
>> things are going, but the blood tests tell things the scale and mirror
>> don't.
>> For those unfamiliar, this is about a super low-carb diet that eliminates
>> all grains and most other high-carb foods. It is based on the notion that
>> the species Homo has been around for 2.5 million years, but has had access
>> to vast amounts of carbohydrates only for the last 12,000 years at best
>> (middle east, asia), and some cultures---notably Native Americans and
>> Africans and Af-Americans, and notably not middle-easterners and asians—
>> have had less than two hundred years to adapt to high-carb diets. People
>> with long histories of carbs have in their saliva more amylase, an enzyme
>> that pre-digests starch before you swallow it. But the famous skinny Asians
>> that people tend to use to discredit low-carb diets--are eastern asians who
>> eat like birds and work like bees---a fistful of white rice, some veges and
>> fish---and that when they eat typical western diets, they plump up like the
>> rest of us.
>> And---this is longer than I'd planned to speak here—the science behind the
>> benefits of low-carb comes down to one word: Insulin. Insulin is a
>> metabolic hormone that determines whether you store fat or burn it. I am
>> not a scientist, but even the most conservative scientists acknowledge that
>> in the absence of insulin we burn body fat and fuel our cells with ketones
>> (a byproduct of fat breakdown); and in the presence of insulin we create
>> fat and store fat and burn glucose for energy. So if you carb up for a long
>> ride, you will burn the calories that you ate, but not your body fat.
>> (Insulin spikes with carbohydrate intake.)
>> Is there an endocrinologist in the house who cares to weigh in here?
>> 
>> There is mounting evidence (spoiler alert: I will soon ask if there's an
>> oncologist or a cellular biologist in the house) that cancer cells thrie in
>> the presense of glucose (comes from carbs) but they cannot live on ketones
>> (fuel used when carbs are restricted). So cance

[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[PeterG]

I don't know a lot about all the different views of this subject, but
I do know my own results..I have MS and neuropathy in hands, feet. I
came across a book called "wheatbelly" back in December of 2012...The
author (a cardio doc) mentioned that thousands of his patients have
improved their lives cutting out wheat, grains and sugars. He
mentioned how lots of evidence is starting to look like many of the
auto immune diseases are somehow related to gluten and the new age
wheat we have formulated.(these aren't the wheats of our
grandfathers). Just to see what would happen, i started Dec 10 with
cutting out ALL grains, sugars and processed foods. results after 3
months: My left hand is actually working most of the time now...my
"brain fog" is gone...Migraines are history...pain is half of what it
was...cholesterol numbers have been cut by 67%...I am no longer on
high blood pressure medsand the list goes on and on and
onPersonally, I think the wheat that we created 30 years ago is
killing us slowly, but each of us has to decide what works and what
doesn't...I want to thank Grant for getting me started on this. I was
talking with him last year and it was he who first talked to me about
diet and how important it was for sustaining a healthy life (he even
had me watch a youtube video)...I encourage everyone to try for
yourself and see what happens...what have you got to lose? Sorry for
preaching...

On Mar 12, 10:30 pm, grant  wrote:
> Whatever works for (anybody) is the right thing. A good way to test is to
> have a complete blood and lipid test (testing for Type A and B LDL, or else
> it does't tell you anything), and include A1C in there, too. Do that now
> (for instance) to see how your diet is working, and then go super low carb
> (or minimally, quit grains and beer for three months) and test again.
> Anybody can stand on a scale and look in a mirror and get a *feel* for how
> things are going, but the blood tests tell things the scale and mirror
> don't.
> For those unfamiliar, this is about a super low-carb diet that eliminates
> all grains and most other high-carb foods. It is based on the notion that
> the species Homo has been around for 2.5 million years, but has had access
> to vast amounts of carbohydrates only for the last 12,000 years at best
> (middle east, asia), and some cultures---notably Native Americans and
> Africans and Af-Americans, and notably not middle-easterners and asians—
> have had less than two hundred years to adapt to high-carb diets. People
> with long histories of carbs have in their saliva more amylase, an enzyme
> that pre-digests starch before you swallow it. But the famous skinny Asians
> that people tend to use to discredit low-carb diets--are eastern asians who
> eat like birds and work like bees---a fistful of white rice, some veges and
> fish---and that when they eat typical western diets, they plump up like the
> rest of us.
> And---this is longer than I'd planned to speak here—the science behind the
> benefits of low-carb comes down to one word: Insulin. Insulin is a
> metabolic hormone that determines whether you store fat or burn it. I am
> not a scientist, but even the most conservative scientists acknowledge that
> in the absence of insulin we burn body fat and fuel our cells with ketones
> (a byproduct of fat breakdown); and in the presence of insulin we create
> fat and store fat and burn glucose for energy. So if you carb up for a long
> ride, you will burn the calories that you ate, but not your body fat.
> (Insulin spikes with carbohydrate intake.)
> Is there an endocrinologist in the house who cares to weigh in here?
>
> There is mounting evidence (spoiler alert: I will soon ask if there's an
> oncologist or a cellular biologist in the house) that cancer cells thrie in
> the presense of glucose (comes from carbs) but they cannot live on ketones
> (fuel used when carbs are restricted). So cancer cells have been known to
> shrink on ketogenic diets. Oncologist? Cellular biologist?
>
> Of course if your body fat is where you want it and your blood scores
> reveal a picture of inner health, then it would be nutty to change. BUT if
> you're not where you wanna be and your blood scores suck, then low-carb is
> worth...not dismissing just because it is counterintuitive.
>
> good site:
>
> theeatingacademy.com
>
> and
>
> nusi.org
>
> They are two good sites that anybody with an open mind and uncrossed arms
> may find interesting. Over and out on this.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:55:21 PM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> > Thought this might be of interest to some on this list. I'm not an
> > expert--or even an amateur--on the "paleo living" topic, but this article
> > makes some interesting points.
>
> >http://www.salon.com/2013/03/10/paleofantasy_stone_age_delusions/
>
> > --Eric N
> >www.CampyOnly.com
> > CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
> > Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[bobish]

On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 11:08:06 AM UTC-4, numbnuts wrote:
> Hey All,
> If I remember correctly from my under grad days, when I studied, among other 
> stuff, physical anthropology, there is more than a little evidence in the 
> human family tree that our predecessors were eating stuff that needed to be 
> crushed rather than sliced, so grasses, grains, etc. At least that's what we 
> were taught.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Chris
> Redding, Ca.

Correct.

Very early ancestors survived on tropical plants, new study suggests
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121214200916.htm

Perry "I ain't buyi the paleo fantasy bro science" Bessas

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[PATRICK MOORE]

This is getting very weird.



On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Garth  wrote:
>
> All Food is of the Mind and Spirit so what is there to debate ?
>
> Nuthin' !
>
> Enjoy your life  no matter who what where and when .
>
> Forgive yourself and forgive everyone.  Not for arbitrary "morality" 
> but because "they" are but a mirror of yourself.
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

I eat mostly greens, by volume. By calories, fat.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:13:19 PM UTC-6, Mike wrote:
>
> "Eat food, not too much, mostly greens."--Michael Pollan
>
> I love that. Seems like a good plan. Sadly, I have not been able to follow 
> it. I will say that while my diet isn't ideal it's better than it was even 
> 5 years ago and without a doubt it's better than what it was in my 20s.
>
> --mike
>>
>>  

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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Garth]

All Food is of the Mind and Spirit so what is there to debate ? 

Nuthin' !

Enjoy your life  no matter who what where and when .

Forgive yourself and forgive everyone.  Not for arbitrary "morality"  
but because "they" are but a mirror of yourself.   

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Peter Morgano]

Love it, I was in 4H growing up, I had a pet goat, its was great times. I
grew up in a rural town in upstate NY so rode my bike everywhere, off brand
Trek made frame that I was amazed had 15 whole speeds, haha.

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Lyle Bogart  wrote:

> "Doesnt anyone have a spring first ride report?"
> My ten year old daughter does! Well, that is, if starting to commute by
> bike from home to school to the barn (for 4H) to the library and back home
> counts :-)
>
> Cheers!
>
> lyle
>
>
> On 13 March 2013 15:58, Peter Morgano  wrote:
>
>> I think we should abandon this thread, it was only vaguely related to
>> bikes and now has way gone off on a tangent.  Doesnt anyone have a spring
>> first ride report? I plan to have one soon, thankfully.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>>> Wrong here too. In third world countries, herders are seeing the highest
>>> yields they've known returning to dense herds on grass. It helps reclaim
>>> land "lost" to desert bey promoting more growth. It turns unproductive land
>>> into productive land and feeds a lot more people. Check this TED Talk out:
>>>
>>> http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 9:31:10 AM UTC-6, Matthew J wrote:

 Grains are grass.
 In addition - and my primary problem with the whole paleo fad is with
 the increase in human population world wide, the amount of land available
 to 'grass' feed herbivores is shrinking both through human development and
 climate change.  In the United States alone, currently the amount of range
 animals is the lowest it has been since the 1950s.  At the same time,
 global fisheries are stressed to the point total collapse is a matter of
 if, not when.

 Even if you do not think converting the Amazon rain forest to pasture
 will have a delitorious impact on the global environment, the fact remains
 the added range land will not be sufficient to allow humanity to adopt a
 meat heavy diet.

 Unless the paleo advocates can come up with either a new source of
 ranges and some radical clean up of our waterways along with a magic way to
 get fish to reproduce more, the world will be far better off considering
 diets that use legumes as the primary protien source as the acerage
 requirement is significantly lower.

>>>  --
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>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>> an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Mike]

"Eat food, not too much, mostly greens."--Michael Pollan

I love that. Seems like a good plan. Sadly, I have not been able to follow 
it. I will say that while my diet isn't ideal it's better than it was even 
5 years ago and without a doubt it's better than what it was in my 20s.

--mike
>
>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Lyle Bogart]

"Doesnt anyone have a spring first ride report?"
My ten year old daughter does! Well, that is, if starting to commute by
bike from home to school to the barn (for 4H) to the library and back home
counts :-)

Cheers!

lyle

On 13 March 2013 15:58, Peter Morgano  wrote:

> I think we should abandon this thread, it was only vaguely related to
> bikes and now has way gone off on a tangent.  Doesnt anyone have a spring
> first ride report? I plan to have one soon, thankfully.
>
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
>> Wrong here too. In third world countries, herders are seeing the highest
>> yields they've known returning to dense herds on grass. It helps reclaim
>> land "lost" to desert bey promoting more growth. It turns unproductive land
>> into productive land and feeds a lot more people. Check this TED Talk out:
>>
>> http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 9:31:10 AM UTC-6, Matthew J wrote:
>>>
>>> Grains are grass.
>>> In addition - and my primary problem with the whole paleo fad is with
>>> the increase in human population world wide, the amount of land available
>>> to 'grass' feed herbivores is shrinking both through human development and
>>> climate change.  In the United States alone, currently the amount of range
>>> animals is the lowest it has been since the 1950s.  At the same time,
>>> global fisheries are stressed to the point total collapse is a matter of
>>> if, not when.
>>>
>>> Even if you do not think converting the Amazon rain forest to pasture
>>> will have a delitorious impact on the global environment, the fact remains
>>> the added range land will not be sufficient to allow humanity to adopt a
>>> meat heavy diet.
>>>
>>> Unless the paleo advocates can come up with either a new source of
>>> ranges and some radical clean up of our waterways along with a magic way to
>>> get fish to reproduce more, the world will be far better off considering
>>> diets that use legumes as the primary protien source as the acerage
>>> requirement is significantly lower.
>>>
>>  --
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Peter Morgano]

I think we should abandon this thread, it was only vaguely related to bikes
and now has way gone off on a tangent.  Doesnt anyone have a spring first
ride report? I plan to have one soon, thankfully.
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Wrong here too. In third world countries, herders are seeing the highest
> yields they've known returning to dense herds on grass. It helps reclaim
> land "lost" to desert bey promoting more growth. It turns unproductive land
> into productive land and feeds a lot more people. Check this TED Talk out:
>
> http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 9:31:10 AM UTC-6, Matthew J wrote:
>>
>> Grains are grass.
>> In addition - and my primary problem with the whole paleo fad is with the
>> increase in human population world wide, the amount of land available to
>> 'grass' feed herbivores is shrinking both through human development and
>> climate change.  In the United States alone, currently the amount of range
>> animals is the lowest it has been since the 1950s.  At the same time,
>> global fisheries are stressed to the point total collapse is a matter of
>> if, not when.
>>
>> Even if you do not think converting the Amazon rain forest to pasture
>> will have a delitorious impact on the global environment, the fact remains
>> the added range land will not be sufficient to allow humanity to adopt a
>> meat heavy diet.
>>
>> Unless the paleo advocates can come up with either a new source of ranges
>> and some radical clean up of our waterways along with a magic way to get
>> fish to reproduce more, the world will be far better off considering diets
>> that use legumes as the primary protien source as the acerage requirement
>> is significantly lower.
>>
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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

Wrong here too. In third world countries, herders are seeing the highest 
yields they've known returning to dense herds on grass. It helps reclaim 
land "lost" to desert bey promoting more growth. It turns unproductive land 
into productive land and feeds a lot more people. Check this TED Talk out:
http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 9:31:10 AM UTC-6, Matthew J wrote:
>
> Grains are grass.  
> In addition - and my primary problem with the whole paleo fad is with the 
> increase in human population world wide, the amount of land available to 
> 'grass' feed herbivores is shrinking both through human development and 
> climate change.  In the United States alone, currently the amount of range 
> animals is the lowest it has been since the 1950s.  At the same time, 
> global fisheries are stressed to the point total collapse is a matter of 
> if, not when.
>  
> Even if you do not think converting the Amazon rain forest to pasture will 
> have a delitorious impact on the global environment, the fact remains the 
> added range land will not be sufficient to allow humanity to adopt a meat 
> heavy diet.
>  
> Unless the paleo advocates can come up with either a new source of ranges 
> and some radical clean up of our waterways along with a magic way to get 
> fish to reproduce more, the world will be far better off considering diets 
> that use legumes as the primary protien source as the acerage requirement 
> is significantly lower.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

"the only energy source your brain uses is glucose."

Uh, wrong. Ketones work wonderfully. Better for most of the brain, 
actually. A specific part of the brain requires glucose, which either can 
come from the liver making it (when ketogenic) or from starch ingested. A 
ketogenic diet is commonly used to treat epilepsy drug free.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 9:24:36 AM UTC-6, Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> By the way, the only energy source your brain uses is glucose.   
>

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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Matthew J]

Grains are grass.  
In addition - and my primary problem with the whole paleo fad is with the 
increase in human population world wide, the amount of land available to 
'grass' feed herbivores is shrinking both through human development and 
climate change.  In the United States alone, currently the amount of range 
animals is the lowest it has been since the 1950s.  At the same time, 
global fisheries are stressed to the point total collapse is a matter of 
if, not when.
 
Even if you do not think converting the Amazon rain forest to pasture will 
have a delitorious impact on the global environment, the fact remains the 
added range land will not be sufficient to allow humanity to adopt a meat 
heavy diet.
 
Unless the paleo advocates can come up with either a new source of ranges 
and some radical clean up of our waterways along with a magic way to get 
fish to reproduce more, the world will be far better off considering diets 
that use legumes as the primary protien source as the acerage requirement 
is significantly lower.

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Tim McNamara]

By the way, the only energy source your brain uses is glucose.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[numbnuts]

Hey All,
If I remember correctly from my under grad days, when I studied, among 
other stuff, physical anthropology, there is more than a little evidence in 
the human family tree that our predecessors were eating stuff that needed 
to be crushed rather than sliced, so grasses, grains, etc. At least that's 
what we were taught.

Regards,
Chris
Redding, Ca.

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[PATRICK MOORE]

Feathers are meant to be ruffled. Controversy is good for the soul.

The other Patrick in ABQ, NM happily stuffing himself with Beer and
Bacon (at least, no bacon until Orthodox lent is over -- deep fried
cheese sticks; but I'm not giving up beer).

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> My apologies for inadvertently ruffling feathers.
>

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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

Sorry, folks. i did not realize the history or firestorm my comment would 
proved. If what you eat works, go that route till it doesn't. I haven't 
read the book and likely won't. But from the reviews I've read she does not 
address the core reasons I choose to eat this way, which are very 
scientifically backed. Her argument appears to be a straw man argument. 
Hence the reason I said "poor logic and reason." The insulen/glucose cycle 
is heavily documented and getting out of that cycle has helped my brain and 
body function far, far better. To address a few points:

-- "Paleo" is a non specific term that refers to any number of diets and 
reasons and thus has no particular meaning.
-- We eat 100% grass fed meat and animal products. The difference from 
grain fed is primarily is the fat, and the flavor is rich and dynamic. By 
eliminating grains from any part of the food cycle our family eats, we have 
experienced dramatic improvements.
-- Yes, humans have eaten glucose for a very long time. We need glucose 
(either produced from fat by our liver or ingested directly). I do much 
better eating "safe" carbs such as white rice, potatoes, and sweet potatoes 
(about 1-2 cups a day).

Anyone interested in the science will find a plethora of information at 
www.PerfectHealthDiet.com and their book.

My apologies for inadvertently ruffling feathers.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Matthew J]

Frankly, except when I am stuck sitting next to a wide body on the subway, 
I tend not to be all that concerned about what others eat.
 
That said, the Paleo diet advocates insistence early humans did not eat 
grain is rot.  Humans evolved in grass lands.  As the linked article points 
out, there is good archaelogical evidence of grain processing going about 
as far back into human history.  
 
Yes, modern society modifies grains and refines the heck out of them.  But 
the dead animals paleos eat have also been genetically modified, are pumped 
with anti-biotics, absorb pollutants from the air and water and eat 
modified and processed grain.

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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[grant]

Whatever works for (anybody) is the right thing. A good way to test is to 
have a complete blood and lipid test (testing for Type A and B LDL, or else 
it does't tell you anything), and include A1C in there, too. Do that now 
(for instance) to see how your diet is working, and then go super low carb 
(or minimally, quit grains and beer for three months) and test again. 
Anybody can stand on a scale and look in a mirror and get a *feel* for how 
things are going, but the blood tests tell things the scale and mirror 
don't.
For those unfamiliar, this is about a super low-carb diet that eliminates 
all grains and most other high-carb foods. It is based on the notion that 
the species Homo has been around for 2.5 million years, but has had access 
to vast amounts of carbohydrates only for the last 12,000 years at best 
(middle east, asia), and some cultures---notably Native Americans and 
Africans and Af-Americans, and notably not middle-easterners and asians— 
have had less than two hundred years to adapt to high-carb diets. People 
with long histories of carbs have in their saliva more amylase, an enzyme 
that pre-digests starch before you swallow it. But the famous skinny Asians 
that people tend to use to discredit low-carb diets--are eastern asians who 
eat like birds and work like bees---a fistful of white rice, some veges and 
fish---and that when they eat typical western diets, they plump up like the 
rest of us.
And---this is longer than I'd planned to speak here—the science behind the 
benefits of low-carb comes down to one word: Insulin. Insulin is a 
metabolic hormone that determines whether you store fat or burn it. I am 
not a scientist, but even the most conservative scientists acknowledge that 
in the absence of insulin we burn body fat and fuel our cells with ketones 
(a byproduct of fat breakdown); and in the presence of insulin we create 
fat and store fat and burn glucose for energy. So if you carb up for a long 
ride, you will burn the calories that you ate, but not your body fat. 
(Insulin spikes with carbohydrate intake.)
Is there an endocrinologist in the house who cares to weigh in here?

There is mounting evidence (spoiler alert: I will soon ask if there's an 
oncologist or a cellular biologist in the house) that cancer cells thrie in 
the presense of glucose (comes from carbs) but they cannot live on ketones 
(fuel used when carbs are restricted). So cancer cells have been known to 
shrink on ketogenic diets. Oncologist? Cellular biologist? 

Of course if your body fat is where you want it and your blood scores 
reveal a picture of inner health, then it would be nutty to change. BUT if 
you're not where you wanna be and your blood scores suck, then low-carb is 
worth...not dismissing just because it is counterintuitive.

good site:

theeatingacademy.com

and

nusi.org

They are two good sites that anybody with an open mind and uncrossed arms 
may find interesting. Over and out on this.


On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:55:21 PM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Thought this might be of interest to some on this list. I'm not an 
> expert--or even an amateur--on the "paleo living" topic, but this article 
> makes some interesting points. 
>
> http://www.salon.com/2013/03/10/paleofantasy_stone_age_delusions/ 
>
> --Eric N 
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Peter Morgano]

No but they have gotten diarrhea... In all seriousness though Jim Mather is
right, not everything works for everyone and people should be open to
trying new things and experimenting.  What works for some might not work
for others. I always think of Jack Lalanne who I looked up to as a paradigm
of being in shape but he kept up a regimen few could live up to and was in
amazing shape until the day he died.  Waking up at 4am to exercise sticking
to his strict diet is a standard not a lot of us can live by.  I personally
wont be checking out the reviews of this book since those places are where
trolls love to come and throw their stones and all they want is people to
read their vitriol but I support any actual author that wants to challenge
something, its never bad to have a dissenting opinion on a popular trend.
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 9:27 PM, William  wrote:

> Very very few people have gotten fat by eating too much raw spinach.  :)
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13:08 PM UTC-7, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
> wrote:
>>
>> I haven't read Zuk's book, but this article seems to be focused on Zuk's
>> refutations of various common conceptions and misconceptions of "paleo"
>> peoples' lifestyles, from an evolutionary or anthropological perspective. I
>> often think that the "paleo" adjective does more harm than good because it
>> brings out the nitpickers (the role this article's author is playing) who
>> like to focus on red herrings related to the belief that paleo people ate
>> certain types of food or lived a certain way. What Zuk seems to be saying
>> is: "it's not that simple". I don't think anybody disagrees with that.
>>
>> I think even Zuk would agree that most people aren't well suited to the
>> Standard American Diet based on refined grains and sugars and engineered
>> fats. She'd probably also agree that a diet centered on high quality meats,
>> vegetables, nuts, and eggs, is probably a healthier way to eat.
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:55:21 PM UTC-5, Eric Norris wrote:
>>>
>>> Thought this might be of interest to some on this list. I'm not an
>>> expert--or even an amateur--on the "paleo living" topic, but this article
>>> makes some interesting points.
>>>
>>> http://www.salon.com/2013/03/**10/paleofantasy_stone_age_**delusions/
>>>
>>> --Eric N
>>> www.CampyOnly.com
>>> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
>>> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>>
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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Tom Harrop]

Yeah. The presentation of health issues in the media suffers greatly from 
dumbing down and miscommunication, among other things. I looked at that 
Salon article and there are points that I don't believe an evolutionary 
biologist would have made in such an unqualified way, which suggests to me 
that the reviewer has misunderstood the science in the book... but you 
never know.

I don't even really know what the paleo diet is (I can guess), I haven't 
read the Zuk book or any books on the topic, but I would humbly say that 
it's a good thing to be able to read about the conflicting points of view. 
Anyone 
with an interest would be better off reading the book and making up their 
own mind rather than worrying about the media's presentation of it.

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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[William]

Very very few people have gotten fat by eating too much raw spinach.  :)

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13:08 PM UTC-7, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery 
wrote:
>
> I haven't read Zuk's book, but this article seems to be focused on Zuk's 
> refutations of various common conceptions and misconceptions of "paleo" 
> peoples' lifestyles, from an evolutionary or anthropological perspective. I 
> often think that the "paleo" adjective does more harm than good because it 
> brings out the nitpickers (the role this article's author is playing) who 
> like to focus on red herrings related to the belief that paleo people ate 
> certain types of food or lived a certain way. What Zuk seems to be saying 
> is: "it's not that simple". I don't think anybody disagrees with that.
>
> I think even Zuk would agree that most people aren't well suited to the 
> Standard American Diet based on refined grains and sugars and engineered 
> fats. She'd probably also agree that a diet centered on high quality meats, 
> vegetables, nuts, and eggs, is probably a healthier way to eat.
>
> On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:55:21 PM UTC-5, Eric Norris wrote:
>>
>> Thought this might be of interest to some on this list. I'm not an 
>> expert--or even an amateur--on the "paleo living" topic, but this article 
>> makes some interesting points. 
>>
>> http://www.salon.com/2013/03/10/paleofantasy_stone_age_delusions/ 
>>
>> --Eric N 
>> www.CampyOnly.com 
>> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
>> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>
>

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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I haven't read Zuk's book, but this article seems to be focused on Zuk's 
refutations of various common conceptions and misconceptions of "paleo" 
peoples' lifestyles, from an evolutionary or anthropological perspective. I 
often think that the "paleo" adjective does more harm than good because it 
brings out the nitpickers (the role this article's author is playing) who 
like to focus on red herrings related to the belief that paleo people ate 
certain types of food or lived a certain way. What Zuk seems to be saying 
is: "it's not that simple". I don't think anybody disagrees with that.

I think even Zuk would agree that most people aren't well suited to the 
Standard American Diet based on refined grains and sugars and engineered 
fats. She'd probably also agree that a diet centered on high quality meats, 
vegetables, nuts, and eggs, is probably a healthier way to eat.

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:55:21 PM UTC-5, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Thought this might be of interest to some on this list. I'm not an 
> expert--or even an amateur--on the "paleo living" topic, but this article 
> makes some interesting points. 
>
> http://www.salon.com/2013/03/10/paleofantasy_stone_age_delusions/ 
>
> --Eric N 
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Jim Mather]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Based on the reviews I've read, the author appears to have incredibly poor
> logic and reason. For vibrant discussion see:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/huaraches/n8Ap2wV-iNI
>

Those reviews are from people vested in the paleo diet, and what I read in
your link has people attacking a point (e.g., "blue eyes") and then someone
pointing out why Zuk is right (or probably right). Anyone who thinks the
diet issue has been settled by the paleo recommendations is fooling
themselves. There is plenty of research showing that source of calories
don't matter. Even at RBW the issue is not settled. There are several
Riv-workers of Asian heritage who rightfully point out that a rice-heavy
diet is not a recipe for obesity.

I'm not trying to fan a flame war -- if it works for you, great. But to
think that there aren't flaws in the reasoning behind this (or any) diet is
fantasy.

happy trails
jim m
wc ca

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Re: [RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Eric Norris]

Wow. (Mentally flicking bits of mud off my computer.)

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
www.campyonly.com
campyonlyguy.blogspot.com

On Mar 12, 2013, at 5:14 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Based on the reviews I've read, the author appears to have incredibly poor 
> logic and reason. For vibrant discussion see:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/huaraches/n8Ap2wV-iNI
> 
> With abandon,
> Patrick
> 
> On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:55:21 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
> Thought this might be of interest to some on this list. I'm not an expert--or 
> even an amateur--on the "paleo living" topic, but this article makes some 
> interesting points. 
> 
> http://www.salon.com/2013/03/10/paleofantasy_stone_age_delusions/ 
> 
> --Eric N 
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
> 
> -- 
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>  
>  

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[RBW] Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions - Is Grant Eating the Wrong Stuff?

[Deacon Patrick]

Based on the reviews I've read, the author appears to have incredibly poor 
logic and reason. For vibrant discussion see:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/huaraches/n8Ap2wV-iNI

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:55:21 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Thought this might be of interest to some on this list. I'm not an 
> expert--or even an amateur--on the "paleo living" topic, but this article 
> makes some interesting points. 
>
> http://www.salon.com/2013/03/10/paleofantasy_stone_age_delusions/ 
>
> --Eric N 
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

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